Conversations with Jacob Ep.80: LGBTQ+ Issues & More w/ Garrett Garland

https://www.instagram.com/garrett_steven_garland

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Got any partners. You're listening to Conversations with Jacob, hosted
by my good friend Jacob Waller. Make sure to check
out the podcast where podcasts are available, and check out
the video version on YouTube. You can follow us on
social media. Facebook is Conversations with Jacob, Twitter is at

(00:52):
CWJ podcast, and you can visit our website Conversations with
Jacob podcast dot weebley dot com. Hey, you got a
show idea, maybe a guest suggestion, email us at Conversations
with Jacob at gmail dot com. Now here's your host,

(01:15):
Jacob Waller, And what's.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
Going on everybody? And welcome back to another episode of
Conversations with Jacob. Today's episode number eighty. And we've made
it this far into the year and into the podcast,
reaching eighty episodes. Uh and next year will be our
one hundredth episode and two years of the podcast. Hard

(01:38):
to believe. Before we get to our guests this week,
and I want to do a few announcements and has
the intro say go check out the Facebook page just
type in Conversations with Jacob. You can check out the
website Conversations with Jacob podcast dot weeble dot com. You
can check up upcoming shows past guest at a little

(01:59):
post from the host as I like to call that,
and also with the upcome of schedules on the website,
and you could check out schedules from now all the
way until like maybe three or four months in events.
So and that's one thing that's different from my podcast
from any other that you can see upcoming shows all
the way until the end of the year. Sometimes also

(02:24):
check out well before we get to that, if you've
got a guest suggestion or just a show idea, check
out our email back It's Conversations with Jacob. Conversations with
Jacob at gmail dot com and check out the podcast
every Monday at one pm I check out. And if
you like podcasts, check out Two Chairs No Waiting. It's

(02:46):
an Andy Griffin the Fan podcast hosted by my good
friend mister out of Newsome and hear Us out of
Newsome to tell you more about Two Chairs No Waiting.

Speaker 3 (02:55):
Andy Barney, Opie Goober, Floyd the Barber. That's some of
the names from Andy Griver Show dropped by Two Chairs
No Waiting The Andy Griver Show Fan Podcast, and we'll
visit with some of those folks along with tribute artists
and fans and just all kinds of things related to
the Andy Griffth show. I'm your host, Alan youwsem and
you can find the show Two Chairs No Waiting at

(03:16):
two Chairsnowaiting dot com or on iTunes.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
And also speaking of two Chairs no Wading, which you
can watch the Life shows Monday at eight pm and
also at two Chairsnowwaiting dot com. And also before we
get to our guests, I want to do a few
shout outs to my good friend Missy and Tennessee for
sending me some some magazines and newspapers from nineteen seventy

(03:42):
seven regarding Elvis Presley of his death in nineteen seventy seven.
Now you send me a whole bunch of newspapers and
magazines about that about forty some years old newspaper, which
is amazing. And also I want to thank Missy and
my good friend SD and Alabama for sending me a
book called Child, which is this book right here about
Priscilla Presley. It's an interesting book already is, and I'll

(04:06):
be doing a review on it soon. I have over
twelve pages of notes. That's a lot of notes, and
the review of be here on YouTube or on the
podcast and sites. I've yet determined whether to make it
a full podcast or a separate video. It should be interesting.
So in joining me, this week's Garret Garland and we're

(04:26):
going to talk about his book that's called to Never
See Heaven that was published on April first, twenty twenty four,
and it's available on Amazon, and we're going to talk
about his book and so much more. So with no
further ado, I'm please welcome Garrett Garlin to the podcast.

Speaker 4 (04:44):
Hello, Jacob, how are you which I'm doing?

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Jodding? How are you doing?

Speaker 4 (04:49):
It's a wonderful breezy day and half of the day.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
So now for people who don't know who you are,
can you give us a background.

Speaker 4 (05:00):
I am a perpetual student and I spent ever since seven.
I've been fascinated by history and told my mother when
I was eight years old that I was going to
be a history professor and spent most of my time
studying French French Revolution and French intellectual history. Lived in Paris,

(05:24):
and became very disillusioned by the idea of doing academia
for the rest of my life. I loved piling through
archives and doing research, but I decided to become a
writer instead. And took me seven or eight years to
write the book and about a year or so to

(05:47):
find a publisher, and then i've been doing it's been
doing rather well, so I'm happy it paid off in
high of my old like you know, like teachers and
childhood friends have readit, friends from university and whatever.

Speaker 5 (06:06):
They're like, oh, we always thought you'd do something.

Speaker 4 (06:08):
So because you have, you're more likely statistically to get
into the NFL. I don't know if you know this,
then you ought to publish a book. Yeah, you have
a higher chance. It's like less than of the US
population publishers. Everyone has started a book and has it
in some jaw somewhere. I'm sure we do. You think
their diaries like rather fascinating. But I also I'm a

(06:29):
I'm an old fashioned like I wrote it all by hand,
and then my wonderful husband Samuel transcribed all of it
with great painstaking love, and I'm sure, and and then
I reread it and edit it with my really good

(06:52):
friend who I studied philosophy with, and it was definitely
a labor of love. But I'm old fashioned in that way,
so I had to do it all by hand. I
like the tension in the pen. I use the fountain pen.
I have a rotary phone and a teel typewriter. So
I'm like a really, I'm like an old lady, an

(07:13):
old professorial old lady is yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:16):
Now, and what inspired you to start writing a book?

Speaker 4 (07:20):
Ah, that particular book, this particular book. Well, I started
writing or someone told me I was talented in the
seventh grade where I wrote this short story about a
girl in the American Revolution, and they made me read
it that assembly and someone was like, you're really because
it was just above where just the language, and anyone

(07:42):
who reads the book would know that the way that
the dialogue, the way that people talk, they're like out
of their time period context. They're like very soliloquy and
Shakespearean in a certain way. And so when I started
writing this book, you know, you write what you know.

(08:02):
And so I was like child born of privilege moves
to Paris, struggling with sexuality, substance abuse. Okay, I got it,
and I didn't. I didn't know it was going to
end the way it was going to end until the
very end. But because the last the first chapter was

(08:23):
actually written last.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
Now you mentioned for people to write what you know.
And how important is that?

Speaker 4 (08:32):
Writing what you know is very important because it's probably the.

Speaker 5 (08:36):
Only chance you have of knowing. You have a shot.

Speaker 4 (08:41):
A lot of first books and like well she got
hit by Steacar, but Margaret Mitchell first book, Daughter of
the South right which you know, to kill a Mockingbird,
Catching the Ride, Those were there one and dons, but
the first and only greatest works were what they knew,
even if they went on to do more like Jack

(09:02):
carroac On, you know, but on the Road is like,
that's the child, so you know, that's like, you know,
the magnum opus. You know everyone, it's nice to think,
you know. It's like a singer like Judy Garder. It's like, well, god,
you're never going to get away from that Over the Rainbow.
You did other things fantastic, but like that's what you know?
What e Houston, I always love you. That's it, you know?

Speaker 5 (09:25):
You know.

Speaker 4 (09:25):
So writing what you know is a great opportunity to
know if you have any talent, it's worth pursuing. And
why like writing by hand is because typing I find myself,
I repeat myself. Writing by hand I like the tension
in the pen and sometimes your hand's getting tired just

(09:45):
from the intensity, but sometimes getting tired because.

Speaker 5 (09:47):
You're like, god, I'm writing crap, Like I don't even
believe this.

Speaker 4 (09:53):
What I'm saying at this point, now now.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
And how do you write what you know? I maintained
the status of a fiction writer without eternity into an autobiography.

Speaker 4 (10:03):
Oh well, that's a very good point. Well, don't use
any names, for god damn sake, I think, yeah, I
mean an autobiography and memoir. Well, for any time you
do that and you fall into I forget the guy's name.
He wrote a million of little pieces, fantastic book, but

(10:24):
said everything was true, and then the re and then
like banished him from the face of the earth because
like he wrote this scene where he had a tooth
removed without morphee, and they're like, we would never do
this is a medieval Europe, Like, we would never do that.
So we got called out for the inconsistency. So I think,
write what you know, but like, keep it far away,

(10:45):
like if you if you don't want to be sued,
keep it as far away from yourself as possible. But
that's not necessarily why people write fiction. In terms of
like it like it's real life. Like uh, Tolkien wrote
Lord of the Rings, he wrote what he knew but
put it in another place, like all the battle scenes.

(11:08):
It's like from like his trench warfare World War One.
He vented his own language, which is very similar to
the Welsh upbringing. A lot of the towns are like
nuances of the surrounding Welsh villages he grew up with.
So you can still write, but you know, and not
make it like exactly your life.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Also now and what are some of the topics and
that you like to explore on your writing?

Speaker 4 (11:32):
Oh god, well, I just lately because I have another
novel that I'm finishing, and then like a novella that's
finished that's about a performer who I guess now we
would call it Jen Dysphoria, working sort of as a

(11:53):
stage and call girl during the time of Jack the
Ripper in East London. So I tend to follow queer characters.
I don't mean to, but I tend to follow queer storylines.
I also like, uh, invoking what I know, like intellectual
like philosophy, but not making it dense and making it

(12:14):
relevant to the character, like you know, like something's happened,
like the closing of the door, and they like reflect
upon it like the closing planes of eminence ever folding.
And then you're like, oh, like that's a weird way
to think about the closing of a door. But but
but to make it also accessible at the same time
lots of self reflection, and also the dialogue should be stampy.

(12:38):
I like things that are like you want to go
back and read it. Like there's some plays and movies
like august O Sage County and Line in the Winter
You're like, oh my god, like every line is perfect.
So I like it when it just like rolls like
you like, you can't you have to watch it five
times because it's like you can't keep up with how
good it is. And I try to make it as

(13:00):
like rapid fire as possible.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Now, And what advice would you give to new arthurs
that are coming up in the uh uh, coming up
in the righting world?

Speaker 4 (13:11):
Oh well, finish the damn thing. First of all, don't
let us sit in the drawer, because I'll tell and
and send five billion query letters, hope five people show
interest and then hopefully one buys it. Same for if
you're sending query letters for an agent I think I

(13:32):
would rather be I mean, I don't know. I'm not
an actor, although I've done some, but I I feel
like almost being an actor of easier because there's there's
so much, there's so many people trying, there's so much
probably I don't know how much of it is actual crap.
But then also the way the industry is set up.

(13:52):
You know, if somebody like I don't know, Chelsea Handler
has a new new book coming out, so they've already
earmarked a million dollar advance for her. So it's very
hard for new authors to get in the foot in
the door period because you think an actor, you go on,

(14:14):
you do your bit and people get to see your bit. People.
You don't get to prove yourself unless someone says, let's
print it. And I think, yeah, I would say, just
prepare for like a lot of rejection because like I said,
you can go to like a nightclub singing and they
say like, oh, we don't like your legs. But at
least you get to do it and someone heard it,

(14:35):
and maybe that guy I didn't like you, the guy
over there does so. But but writing's harder because it
doesn't exist unless someone sees it. It's literally the definition
of the tree falls in the woods? Oh, would don't
even make a sound? Writing?

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Is that hard?

Speaker 4 (14:47):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (14:47):
Would you say that the publishing processes is kind of
harder than a write in the book?

Speaker 4 (14:53):
I think so absolutely, because once it's done well. Also
sometimes you have to take the rejections as self reflection.
So I mean this is in the synopsis, so like,
for example, the first like I said, the first chapter
didn't exist. The whole premise of the book is that
these two men who have lived together a long time.

(15:16):
One's chancellor of the university, the other associates professor. They
fell in love long ago in Paris. But the one
he usually gives the commencement address, and he's unfortunately dying,
so his younger husband is has to give it for him,
and he doesn't want to. And so they lay down
next to each other and say, do you remember Paris?

(15:36):
And they and they self reflect that chapter did not exist.
And I and I got so many rejections when you
send query letters, they want chapter samples that didn't exist.
And then I made it like a page or two.
And then my friend's like, I'm not connecting with it.
I get the premise, I'm not connecting with it. So
then I expanded it to like what is it's six

(15:58):
or eight pages, and then you could feel everything and
like he's wearing his like math even sweater from like
fifty years ago, and looking in the mirror and seeing
how he's aged. And even though he's dying, the pusan
still wants a cigarette. So so and then like the title,
I changed the title four times. I can tell you
what all the things were going to be called, because

(16:20):
the first title was like something in Latin. People were
not getting it, like I think, so I changed so
it wasn't until I got that title. People are even like,
would you mind sending five chapters? More like do you know?
You know?

Speaker 5 (16:33):
So So also takes the rejections like don't think everything
you do is gold.

Speaker 4 (16:38):
There's a great book by Stephen King, and in one
of the chapters it's like his process on writing. It's
literally like about writing and he says, don't be afraid
to kill your darlings, and that means like some of
your chapters are superfluous, or like you may love that title,
no one gets it. Gone with the Wind was supposed
to be called into the last line of the book,
and she says it multiple times throughout the thing. It

(16:58):
was supposed to be called to ma is another day
perfectly cute would have been fine, but the publisher said, no,
that line gone with and here we are for it
makes more to this day had made more money than Avatar,
the greate dis gracing film and book of all times
still in print. But that wasn't what her title. Do
you know what I mean? So you can't be afraid

(17:20):
to not earning this in ter other people, but also
adjust yourself along with the with the rejections. And I
think writers are very temperamental, emotional people, probably akin to
an actor honestly.

Speaker 2 (17:30):
Now, and how long did it take you to write
the book that came out this year?

Speaker 4 (17:37):
That? Yeah, it was like I've started writing it in
twenty fourteen and I finished it almost to the day
of like the pandemic. It was like March something twenty twenty,
and then I got the publisher like a year two a.

Speaker 5 (17:49):
But then publishing, that's a whole year. That's editing, that's.

Speaker 4 (17:53):
The whole my uh. The cover that was painted by
my very good friend Hillary Craveno because I didn't like
some of the samples they gave me and she had
she knew what my vision was for it. Even well,
here's the book to Never See Heaven. I've had an idea.
I forget the artist Renee somebody, but he does these

(18:16):
like Matt things with like bird like with an eyeball
in the center. And then I was like, but then
you were your eye just would have gone to that.
And it was like three o'clock in the morning, and
we both agreed, like, no stop, I think this is
beautiful because not only does it line up perfectly across
because it was done on oil panthers, two things across,

(18:37):
but the clouds inside the people match the larger thing,
so it would have thrown off the perspective. Y, I
just would have gone to the bird. So every everything
is a process. Even once you get the publishing deal, Well,
it's another year till it comes out, and you'll you'll
see edits in your first problems in your first edition,

(18:59):
period missed and things like that.

Speaker 5 (19:01):
You have to be also okay, but that it's never
going to be perfect even once you have it.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
Now and now, and how did you come up with
the name for the book, Well, it.

Speaker 4 (19:14):
Was going to be called The Sun Warms Everything Onnia soul.
No one got what that meant. Then it was going
to be called should Birds Parish with like dots trailing off?
No one got that. And then I wrote like a
list of like fifteen different names. Five of them probably crapped,

(19:38):
ten were pretty good, and I gave it to like
five friends and everyone nailed on the same one. Everyone.

Speaker 5 (19:45):
I was like, what's your top? And never see Evan
was the one, and I was like, well, that's it.

Speaker 4 (19:49):
And then even though you know, I went with this publication,
there was like, you know, five or six people who
showed interest in piqued interest, But I don't think it
would have happened if the title hadn't been changed.

Speaker 5 (20:00):
And you're not and you know, you're flexible.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Now now and people read your book, and what are
you hoping that they might take away from it?

Speaker 1 (20:11):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (20:14):
Or it might learn from it? You know what can
it take away or learn from other book?

Speaker 4 (20:21):
I think it explores a way to beautifully articulate suffering
and explore the complexities of childhood trauma and how they
are like cracks under the surface that will rise.

Speaker 5 (20:40):
It's like it's like your temperatures at ninety nine.

Speaker 4 (20:44):
And then you'll it'll it'll burst because of the stresses
and the triggers and the things that occur in your
childhood and the way that you try to kill the
you know, the outside, to kill the thing on the inside,
but then also showing a path.

Speaker 5 (20:59):
Through a men and how to be lovable, to be
loved and you know, and like I.

Speaker 4 (21:06):
Said, it all ends well, you have to give people
hope and a lot of the time, you know, the
good die young and bastards live forever. Well, no one
does in my book, like you know what I mean,
Like I like to give happy endings to characters who
truly deserve it. And I think all the characters who

(21:26):
who loved Anthony and gave him a path to sobriety
and healing, all all get happy ending. So that's another
thing to take away. I think.

Speaker 5 (21:37):
I think there's hope. And that's why I like the title.

Speaker 4 (21:41):
Heaven is more like a question, and it's more like
heaven heaven and how it's viewed within your eye and
you know, it's like he looks and you know, with
the love of his life, and he's like sees the
eyes of God in him.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
Now, you mentioned a childhood trauma. Is that part of
the book, or did you go through the growing up?

Speaker 5 (22:02):
Well, I think no one grows up perfectly.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
I was not.

Speaker 4 (22:10):
Violently assaulted like the character unfortunately is by a close
family member. However, I thought that, ah, what do they
call it? Generational trauma? I would say, is more more
so what I would be a victim of, and including

(22:33):
just the one side of my family, Like they just
all seem to like trickle down and screw each other
up and then you sort of like witness it and
then find out what it is or had stemmed from.
And so I thought I would explore that. But also
I think because it's not only familial trauma, but also

(22:58):
there is know well I don't want to give way
too much of the book, but it's it's.

Speaker 5 (23:03):
Unfortunate how common it is where people either.

Speaker 4 (23:06):
Excuse or go back to the people who do the
things that they do, but they but they don't realize
that that's what's killing them.

Speaker 5 (23:13):
So that's what I also explore.

Speaker 4 (23:16):
Now.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
And what is the connection between a substance abuse and
a trauma or survivor?

Speaker 4 (23:24):
So I think substance abuse is conditional. I think survivors
that spectrum is wide because what are you trying to survive.
I think substance is always linked to pain, but I
think survivors are probably more prone to substance abuse than

(23:46):
someone who's currently going through abuse who might seek substance.
Does that make sense absolutely, yeah, Because you come over
the other side of one thing and you're exhausted and
you think you're done, and then the devil taps you
on the shoulder and you're like, so you want anyone
to give into that those things? To try to just

(24:07):
give yourself like Alzheimer's in that part of your brain,
just erase and and probably escape from some part of yourself.
Because I think also trigger is probably an overused word.
Anytime I've been triggered, triggering could be like you're assaulted
and then you see an assault on television and now

(24:27):
you're triggered. Anytime I personally been triggered, I think this
is most people. You're just cutting like an apple, or
you're on the toilet or in the shower or putting
on a sweater, and then it'll just like a gift,
not really and zactly like lightning and you weren't even
you don't even know where it came from. And then
you're like, oh god, oh God, oh god, oh god,

(24:49):
like you're almost like out of body. At least that's
my own experience. And then other people I've talked to
they're like, yeah, no triggering, Like you can be triggered
by seeing something similar to whatever effects you. But a
lot of times the people are triggered. It has nothing
to do with anything you just are. It just enters
and it's and it's unfortunate. But but but I have learned,

(25:10):
and there's a psychologists and people breathing, you're supposed to
like almost like work through it, like like we're like okay, okay, uhha,
like don't like all of a suddenly go like ray
mos like just.

Speaker 5 (25:22):
And then it becomes less and less frequent. That's what
I've learned.

Speaker 2 (25:28):
Now, Oh, I might kind of talk about a controversial
topic here, but I not talk about anything here on
the podcast. But but my question is here, why do
you think that that the l gp t Q community
gets criticized so much?

Speaker 4 (25:44):
But other people, Oh, well, we usually surge with popularity
and hatred during election years, so uh, it's always there,
it just usually bubbles up. We love to pass the
bathroom bill right before an election. Yes, let's talk about

(26:06):
the bathroom. That's what the people don't care about inflation
or gas prices. Let's talk about who pees wear. I
think there isn't a person I mean before like in
the closet, or like before Stonewall, like being just gay
was like it was like an underground with the trench
coat and the hat pulled down, and you know if

(26:29):
they were if they did a raid and you were arrested,
they would publish all the names of the people and
the papers that were rest when people lost their jobs
or committed suicide or whatever. I don't think there's a
person alive now who has either interacted or knows or
is not related to a gay person. I think as
the stripes on the rainbow grow, like whether it's non

(26:50):
binary or transgender, there are gay people who are like, oh, well,
you're just messed up in the head, Like just because
I can't wrap my mind around something does not mean
everyone wants space at the table. So I think as
largely as gay has been accepted, also all those things
can be very easily taken away for women, for gay persons,

(27:12):
for transgender people, and some of these people are just fighting,
you know, for space at the table. It's like a fine,
call people what they want to be called. I mean,
I don't think it's that hard to be kind. It
shouldn't be.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
But oh oh yeah. Now do you think someone can
go from a male to female or a male to
like vice versa. Do you think someone can do that,
because I know that's get criticized as will pass.

Speaker 5 (27:38):
Well, you mean going back and forth or going through
the surgery like a.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
Male going to female or a male, you know, vice
versa on the teething.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
Well, okay, so most of the time, whether it's gay
men or men who are becoming women. Queen Victoria passed
the anti buggery laws, anti gay laws during her reign
and then they said, what about the lesbians, And she's like, oh,
that doesn't exist. Whether it's gay persons or men becoming women,

(28:12):
it's usually society is very obsessed with the sex, and
like a woman becoming a man is not threatening, and
women with women, I don't know what I mean, they
also suffer in different ways. But when people pass laws
and things, very obsessed with what happens to the penis,

(28:36):
where it goes, how it gets turned around, very obsessed
and it's just historical fact. But you know, it's obviously
it's so hard. I mean, I can't imagine why anyone
would go through that if they're not obviously suffering from
gender dysphoria. And I just think we should have compassion

(28:58):
for those people because I don't know what's going on
in their head. I mean, there was one point. I mean,
I am a man, I identify with a man despite
all the jewelry. But I but I but I thought
at one point being gay was so hard. I said,
I would have rather been born a woman, because then
I could dress the way I want and then have
sex with men, and then it'll all be good if

(29:20):
I'd just been born a woman.

Speaker 5 (29:21):
But I'm not a woman, but someone and they've done.

Speaker 4 (29:25):
The scans on the brains, you know, even if it's
physiologically male or female, that they possess the lobes of
a male or female brain.

Speaker 5 (29:34):
It really is like born in the wrong body.

Speaker 4 (29:36):
We don't know why. I mean, I think Neil deGrasse Tyson,
I forget, he was on some show and there was
some mouse peace talking about the downfall of society and
all this. He's like, I approached this like a scientist. Okay,
so as a scientist instead of passing stupid laws. I
would like to study and understand why, Like, don't lambast them,

(30:00):
don't throw them in a pit, Let's do some research.
I mean, you know, for a while they were looking
for gay geen. I mean gay twins kind of shot
that out of the water because obviously you have two
twins ones gay ones not so obviously looking for a
gay geen isn't what possible. But you know, when discussing
transgender people's I mean, I just think we should have
compassion and research, not throw.

Speaker 5 (30:22):
People in jail or try to excuse them from public space.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Now, and when did you know that you was gay?
Was that at an early age or was it later on?

Speaker 4 (30:33):
Oh dear god. I wish somebody had told me. I
mean I look at videos where I'm like four and five,
and I'm like, oh, christis kids fucking This kid's like
spitting rainbows out of his mouth. I mean it literally,
I wish somebody had told me. But no, I didn't
come to the conclusion until I was about seventeen, and

(30:54):
I was just in love with this bot, Like I
never felt such.

Speaker 5 (30:57):
A strong attraction to this boy, and I was like,
oh God, that's what this is.

Speaker 4 (31:01):
Because because being with women. I was like, is this
what everyone's talking about? Is this what American part? I
was like, I'm supposed to do this for forty years,
pay taxes, and die doing this.

Speaker 5 (31:13):
I have two hands, for God's sake. I mean, I
mean really, but then you find what You're like, Oh.

Speaker 4 (31:21):
That's what was missing. Yeah, no, yeah, I was a
late bloomer for sure. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
And how did your family and friends react when you
came out? In totom.

Speaker 4 (31:34):
I'm always shocked that my parents were shocked. I mean,
I mean really, my friends were like, well anything else,
you know. I mean I remember calling my one friend
and then she yelled to her mother, am I are
you twenty bucks? But you know so Yeah, It's it's

(32:00):
always hard to because you think people know you from
birth and they carry you and that tell me and
they just know who you are, and I guess you don't.

Speaker 5 (32:10):
But why I think coming out while coming.

Speaker 4 (32:15):
Out is an important part of the life process, which
is why I also think some gay persons have arrested
development because when you come out, whether it's seventeen or
you're like seventy, I mean, some people are married for
twenty five years and.

Speaker 5 (32:28):
Go, hey, oh honey, sorry, I'm gay. You know.

Speaker 4 (32:33):
You almost you're starting like back at year zero, because
now you're like, how who am I attracted? To?

Speaker 5 (32:38):
Am I attracted? Where do I fit in this community?

Speaker 4 (32:40):
So while coming out is important, no one should ever
come out unless you're it's going to hurt you physically
or financially. Wait till your parents play for medical school
and then tell them if they're not going to deal
with it, well, because then you can tell them to
fuck off. I mean that that's my opinion.

Speaker 5 (32:57):
That's my opinion.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
People, So listening or watching this when this airs, if
they're going through the same processes process of them being gey,
what is your advice for them if they want to
tell their parents.

Speaker 4 (33:17):
Well, it depends on your relationship with your parents. I
mean sometimes it's which parents like, tell mummy, but we
will will We will not tell your father until he's dead. No, Yeah,
it just it depends on the circumstance. But certainly if
it's if it's going to result in uh, you being

(33:38):
thrown out of the house physically or financially. I mean
the character in the book is completely cast it out
of his private school, perfect Upper New England. You know,
Posh bubble and throw into the sphere of public school,
which I mean, compared to most is not the greatest

(34:01):
form of suffering. However, you know, he is almost accidentally outed,
not almost, he is accidentally outed, h and it results
in you know, him being hurt financially and physically. And
so no, no one should should go through that. You

(34:23):
come out to your closest and most important people, and
you don't put yourself at risk.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
Now, And what is your thoughts on today's politics?

Speaker 4 (34:34):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (34:34):
God, well, in terms of.

Speaker 4 (34:39):
Like this upcoming election, I was on another podcast and
someone asked me about politics and the future of the
LGBTQ community. If certain Orange men win, then I don't know,
because you know, it all can be taken away. Look

(35:01):
at Roe v. Wade like, we're not out of the
woods really. So now if it goes another way, the
future of the LGBT community needs to know that we
have to be better at creating space for the table
because there's still a lot of elitism and exclusion that happens.

(35:24):
You know, whether it's a non binary transgender person's you know,
they're like, I mean, I mean, gay Republicans are just weird.
I mean, if you are there's probably four of you,
but God help you. I mean, you know the first day,
you know, he went to the White House back in
what was that twenty sixteen, Like the LGBTQ page came
down in about twenty nine seconds, and then when Biden

(35:45):
got into the White House it went back up, and
on gay Pride, the whole White House was showered with
rainbow lights.

Speaker 5 (35:51):
So vote well.

Speaker 4 (35:54):
I mean, it's just a prettier.

Speaker 5 (35:55):
World when we all get along. So that's that's the future,
I hope for.

Speaker 4 (36:02):
Now.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
Do you think that some people in Congress are trying
to get rid of the l GPT uh, the lgbt
Q plus. Do you think that some people in Congress
are trying to get rid of it?

Speaker 4 (36:15):
Oh? I mean they've gotten very clever, because I was watching,
Oh I forget one of those oversprayed hand Fox News
coach chairs or something, and he was talking about the history.
He has no business speaking on a space in which
he doesn't belong. He's not you're not even an ally.
And he was talking about the what was it, the

(36:39):
evolution of the rainbow flag and now it's so many
colors and who knows what. So they even try to
divide us, like, and it's like you need to give
a shit about the flag. You're just doing this to
try to divide us, because there's probably a handful of
gay or lesbian people are like, oh yeah, there's trends gender,

(37:01):
those non binary people. And there's even more classifications. I
mean there's like to what asexual, polyamory, pan sexual. I mean,
there's so many diverse things. But then it's like there's
not also one species of bird. There's like fifty versions
of a finch. I mean, why would sexuality only be
like you know, that's why they add the plus, because

(37:24):
we're still adding on to it. I think the people
in Congress I like I said, I think they resurrect
it conveniently, usually around election time. But then also it's
like you really do not want a melting pot state
and you want to keep people stupid. But I think
it's also irresponsible because it's like you might have a

(37:44):
gay nephew, you might your wife may be.

Speaker 5 (37:47):
About to give birth to the lesbian or bisexual daughter.
You know.

Speaker 4 (37:53):
I think it's very irresponsible because I said, I don't
know a single person nowadays who doesn't have at least
have a connection at least a coworker, femily.

Speaker 5 (38:01):
Member that's not part of that community.

Speaker 4 (38:03):
So I think anytime they try to pass things to
try to erase us, it's very responsible to them personally
and to sort of I mean, you've got rid of
gay people.

Speaker 5 (38:15):
Do you know what happened to the fall line?

Speaker 4 (38:16):
For God's sake?

Speaker 5 (38:18):
I mean fashion would trouble as we know, I mean,
do they not like beautiful things? I'm making a joke now,
but no.

Speaker 4 (38:24):
Seriously, it's very sad when they try to erase possibly
even their own family members. It's very sad, very hypocritical
and irresponsible attitudid Now, and.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
What's the definition of the rainbow flag?

Speaker 4 (38:41):
I think it was supposed to I forget the whole
like history and how it all came together, but essentially
it's supposed to be like you know, all on inclusivity,
the variation, you know, it's how I mean, how does
the rainbow occur? Travels through a prism and it splits

(39:02):
and divides it into these individual beautiful things that you
can mix and combine to make something beautiful and and
and they all coexist in the perfect lines.

Speaker 5 (39:12):
But you can take and borrow as you wish and
make something beautiful.

Speaker 4 (39:16):
So I think the flag in the history of it
is supposed to be inclusivity. If they want to add
fifty more stripes, unless you are a card carrying member
or an ally, then shut you know, don't who cares.
I don't even own a rainbow flag.

Speaker 5 (39:32):
I mean. So once again, if you want it, ton't
buy it.

Speaker 4 (39:35):
Very simple.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
Before you wrap up today, And where can people find
you on a social media or on the internet.

Speaker 4 (39:45):
Well, I am obviously my book To Never See Heaven
is on Amazon and Kindle, and I'm in the process
of recording my audiobook, and then Garrett Understood for Stephen
Garland as on Instagram, and then my Facebook page and
obviously my threads. It's all Garrett Understare Stephen God and

(40:09):
I have another podcast coming out on July twenty fourth.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
Oh God what.

Speaker 4 (40:24):
But I'll be posting about that as it comes. But
it's coming out on July twenty fourth. It's about me
and this queer Irish men of the Sacramento Gay Men's
Chorus generated ai stories online and then read them to
each other.

Speaker 5 (40:42):
It's very entertaining, but I'll be posting that as it
comes along, all.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Right, Before you wrap up today, what do you usually
ask my gifts, did they have any close and thought
with the people listen for the people listening or watching,
do you gave me close and thoughts?

Speaker 4 (40:59):
Oh, my cousin thoughts. Oh God. I mean, I think
there's so much going on in the world, and there's
so much healing that needs to occur, and of course
a lot of what's going on usually after. I mean,

(41:21):
World War two was born out of World War One
and the financial tragedies of nineteen twenty nine, and we
came out of pandemic and the fact that all these
things happening around the world and in our own country,
rights being taken away, surgencies in violence against people of
all minorities. It's no wonder and it's no surprise. However,

(41:44):
you can't now we all have streaming, so we can
choose to watch what we want, and we don't have
to engage in things that upset us. But we have
to still stay informed and vigilant. And I hope everyone's
just a kinder to each other. And fine, I know
that was very broad and everything, but I was also

(42:05):
thinking in retrospect to my book, because really it could
have ended more tragically. But this person was suffering from pain,
and so I think once healing occurs, then love can.
That's the air.

Speaker 5 (42:19):
So that's my closing thought.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
Absolutely, Oh, Garrett, I want to think of which I
want to thank you for coming on the podcast to
talk about your book and some other issues which I
really enjoyed it.

Speaker 4 (42:30):
I really enjoyed our time to do it too, Jacob,
and I hope we can do this again, maybe when
mine never head that comes out, who knows. But also
if you haven't need anybody, I'm here.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
So oh yeah, absolutely all right. All right, that wraps
up this week's episode. Tune in next week for another
episode of Conversations with Jacob. Until then, God bless and
we'll see you right here next month. And I will
see you next week on Conversations with Jacob.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
May be

Speaker 3 (43:10):
Bea