Garrison-Sprague New Orleans Conference 9/21/68 Part 7

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning everybody. Corey used Bloody History. So it is
Monday and we're back. Sorry about the intermittent schedule lately.
I've just had a ton to do, ton to do.
Our project we've been working on Independent Media Token is

(00:21):
launching in about a week and there's a lot of
last minute tidying up we've had to do. That's going
to be exciting and if you want to learn more
about that, go to IMT dot network. So today we're
going to go back to the Garrison Sprague conference document.
We got a long ways to go in this thing,
and it's about to get juicy here. They're going to

(00:43):
talk about Buell Fraser. So remember, Buell Fraser is a
fucking liar. He had much more of a role in
this thing than anyone wants to talk about. He's still
alive and he doesn't want to admit anything. You'd think
somebody on a would have a deathbed confession other than
the Howard Hunt who got a lot wrong. But so

(01:06):
before we start, let me talk about Bill Fraser for
just a minute. Bill Fraser did not drive Oswald to
the book depository that day. He described the man who
showed up at his house wearing a gray more or
less flannel wool type jacket or coat. Lenny may Randall
confirmed this, said he was also wearing a tan shirt.
Most certainly was not the Harvey Oswald because Oswald had

(01:26):
to go home to get his jacket. That's a story, right.
Oswald had to go to the boarding house to get
his jacket, So it was most certainly not Oswald who
Fraser claims to have dealt with that morning when he
gets to the book depository. The story is Oswald gets
out of the parks in the railroad yard. Oswald gets

(01:46):
out with the rifle under his arm, walks into the
book depository. No one else in the world can confirm
the story, and that's because it didn't happen. We have
the testimony of Ed Shields at the HSCA in the seventies.
This came out. Ed Shields saw Buel Fraser exit his
truck in the railroad yards, walk towards the building, and

(02:09):
someone hollered out to him from inside the building, Hey, Fraser,
where's your rider? And Fraser called out to him and said,
I dropped him off at the building. Oh really, so
you dropped him off at the building. Who'd you drop
off at the building. Where'd you drop him off? Why?
I've never heard about this before. There is some rebuttal

(02:34):
to the testimony of ed Shields, which they tried to
say that Ed Shield's testimony is hearsay. But the story
that tries to debunk ed Shields's story is hearsay in
and of itself, which is fucking hilarious. Which is what
the GODDAMNCIA does, right, They put out stories to undermine
a real story by you know, every accusation is a confession, right,

(02:55):
So Oswald didn't get driven to work today because Oswald
wasn't fucking there. William Seymour was working at the book
depository as Oswald, as is captured in the Robert Hughes film,
and as is determined by Baker when he stops Oswald
allegedly Oswald in the sixth floor lunch or the second

(03:16):
floor lunch room where he's drinking a coke. But that
story is a myth too, That story that was bullshit,
That never happened. That was a cover story. We're not
going to get into that. But that incident actually happened
on the stairwell between the third and fourth floors, and
the person who Baker stopped was a man wearing a
light brown jacket. Exactly what William Seymour was wearing is
captured in the Robert Hughes film out in the Railroad Yards.

(03:37):
So everything, this is all theads back to Buell Fraser
being completely full of shit, right, because Buell Fraser didn't
drive William Seymour to fucking work that day, or did he?
I don't know, I don't think so that would imply
William Seymour would be staying up in an area over
by the Pain residence off a fifth and fort Worth.
Does that make any sense to me? Do I have
any other indicators that that could be the case. Well,

(03:59):
there are anomaloust Oswald's sightings in that area. Someone gave
Oswald a ride hitchhike. Oswald was hitchhiking and he gave
him a ride and talked about communism and stuff like.
So we have a couple of weird incidents that I
haven't been able to fit into the pattern. Is it
possible William Seymour was living in fort Worth over by
the Pains. It's possible. I can tell you with certainty

(04:19):
that William Seymour knew Fraser because William Seymour dropped Fraser's
name at the Sports drone rifle range when William Seymour
went and shot at other people's targets, which is what
Oswald is alleged to have done. Right, So we definitely
know Seymour was setting up Fraser. So Seymour knew Fraser
in one capacity or another. Is it possible the man

(04:41):
he drove to work that day and dropped off in
the front of the building as what he said to
Ed Shields. Is it possible that that was William Seymour.
It's not really anything I've ever explored, but it's a
possibility and I should probably add that to the list
of things. It would probably explain a lot of the

(05:02):
one off Oswald weird sightings that occurred in Fort Worth
over by the pain residence and by Buell Fraser's residence.
But I'm pretty confident and I feel I can say
with certainty that there was a safe house in oak
Cliff that they went to, that Seymour went to after
they left the book depository and prior to going to

(05:24):
the Tidy Lady laundry. So were there multiple safe houses? Oh? God,
I'm sure there were? Do I have any evidence on
where Lauren Hall and Lawrence Howard were staying. Nope, other
than the executive in when Thomas Beckham went and go
met with and went to go meet with Lawrence Howard

(05:44):
right as is outlined in his HSCA testimony. So other
than that, we don't have any indication on where they
were residing. And that's problematic. Does it open the door
to William Seymour having been directly in contact with Fray
as he was working at the book Depository and living
up in that area, And is he the man with

(06:04):
the more or less flannel wool type coat that Fraser
drove to work that day who he dropped off in
front of the building and then fabricated the whole story
about Oswald which was part of the plan. Him being
directly connected to William Seymour. If William Seymour was living
in fort Worth in that area would make a lot
more sense because it would just indicate that it was
William Seymour directly managing and handling Buell Fraser, which had

(06:28):
to have been the case because it was fucking Seymour
inside the book Depository. I mean that to me is
concrete at this point So back to the Garrison Sprague
conference document. They're about to talk a little bit more
about Buell Fraser, and I already mentioned him a little bit,
but I'm going to pick up exactly where I left off,

(06:48):
which was page one oh six. Sprague says, wait a minute,
let me tell you more, my friend. That's him in
the window there at nine or ten o'clock in the
morning with a black shirt on, facing the guy in
the red shirt. In my opinion, I can tell you
that because if you look at this damn thing through
the magnifying glass you will see this profile. You can't

(07:11):
see his face, but well boy, there's that hawk nose,
and here he is in a picture down at jail.
It must be talking about the altins photos. Must be
what he's talking about. A nine or ten o'clock meaning
like we're in the position in the photograph. He's a
fairly young fellow, isn't he. You've got his picture down
at the jail. Yeah, right, that's beautiful. Sprague says, you know,

(07:34):
I wouldn't want to go to court with that. But
he's got a black kind of jacket shirt and he's
got that hawk nose. Here's a better picture of him
in Daniel's picture. But that's him, you know. And when
I'm looking at this damn thing. First of all, there
are only seven or eight white guys who are supposed
to be on the sixth floor that morning. Fraser says
he came up to the sixth floor that morning while

(07:55):
the floor laying crew was there for a few seconds
at the elevator and went back down. Thefically asked him,
were you ever over at that corner? And he said no,
Did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald? And he said no?
In other words, if that's him there, he is in
place where he says he wasn't in this picture. There's
a guy in a red shirt and a guy in

(08:15):
a black shirt. Here. Here's another guy here. That's a box.
I'm pretty sure Max was a Fraser wearing a red shirt. No,
can't hear buds on the phone in the background. It's
a Bud Fensterwalt. If you think one of these is Fraser? Huh?
The one on the left, the hawk profile that the
FBI picked up Marilyn five minutes before Bill got there

(08:37):
and whisked her off to the LSU football game. Ooh
oh oh, so this is happening in real time as
the conference is going on. So what was happening? What
he's talking about is Marilyn Morett was going to go
interviewed by Bill Boxley, and Bill Boxley went shot over
to Marril Morett's and the FBI picked her up and
took her to the LSU football game. What LSU football game?

(08:58):
It's weird and this is sixty seven. She's a teacher
at this point? Is she teaching at LSU? I'm not
sure she. Marylyn Morett's a whole can of worms. One day,
I'll do some more work on her. Let me see.
You think one of these is Frasier? Huh yeah, the

(09:19):
one on the left in the Hawk profile. The FBI
picked up Marylyn five minutes before Bill got there and
whisked her off to the LSU football game. What they
bugged the room? No, I don't think they knew in
advance of this room. I was gonna suggest a different
one tomorrow. How about the stairway. You know there's a
lot of people out there a while ago. You know,
she could have just taken off for the game. Did

(09:40):
he have an appointment with her? Not? At four thirty
the game started yeah, I talked with him. I talked
to them several days ago. I talked with him several
days ago. He will have to talk to Bill about
there where we spoke about it. But I think we
did it in the office. I want to see who

(10:01):
was present and everything. I didn't know the FBI was
interested in football. They're more interested in football than they
are in assassinations. Is LSU a night game, Yeah, it's possible.
She could just be going to the football game. Yeah,
but why would she make an appointment for four thirty?
I haven't the famous notion. Ask Bill when he gets back,
he's coming back here. I've been working on buill Wesley

(10:24):
Fraser for some time. Well, this is the first time
we've talked to see, which makes it interesting because independently
we found our way to him, which is always the
best thing. I think it was this first of all.
I think it's him in the window. Garrison then says,
but is this the first time that he and I
have talked about Fraser and independently, Sprague says, Secondly, he

(10:44):
wasn't there. There are only two or three possibilities for
those guys to be unless it's somebody who snuck in
Garrison says, if you want to see an example of
how they put a lock on somebody now for later testimony,
imagine the lock they have on Lenny may Randall when
they got her brother involved in this. She will testify
to anything they want. Sprague says, And finally, you have

(11:08):
that damn bag. And we know, goddamn well that the
bag was brought out of the building just too long
to be the bag that's in the commission's exhibit. I
think the police made that bag. Did you see the
size they had carried out like a howitzer? Sprague says,
there's only one guy you testified to the fact that
Oswald carried the thing in, and that's Fraser. Now suppose

(11:30):
he made it up. That's circled in the notes. Garrison says,
at least one employee at the depository said Oswald did
not have a gun. Of course, Fraser mistaken. They coached him,
but not well enough because he said he saw it
like this. You know it would have been hanging down
to his knees. So I figure that Fraser was coached

(11:53):
or lied on purpose. As a matter of fact, he
says that morning, instead of walking in with him like
he usually does, he hung back and add about fifty
paces behind him because Oswald was going in with the
bag in front of him. I guess it will be
necessary now to check out some of Fraser's activities and friends.
We know nothing about Fraser, I say, but nobody's ever
checked him out. Now we just ignored him. Garrison says,

(12:16):
I just found this out, and when Bill came back
from Texas, I said, my god, look at this about Fraser,
and he said, christ that's interesting because I just learned
that he came back from Boeing fenscher Wald says, I
figure that this guy here is telling him what to do.
You know, they're talking to that window. This could be
Ruby's truck, the one he was driving, the green truck. Yeah,

(12:37):
it's just a plain truck, that pickup that Julianne Mercer
told us. Sprague says, yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
Weren't you here when I said, oh, okay, I'll tell
you what he probably got where he got the probably
got the truck too. Who is best friend on the
police force? Joe Cody. Joe Cody is in the truck
rental business. He leases trucks. He's also got his telephone number. Yeah,

(13:01):
that's right. Why they put that air conditioner on it
because when they put that on there, it removes it
from being one of Joe Cody's trucks. This isn't very
good blow up because I made a negative from my
original and this print from the negative. I don't have
the original here because I sent it out to University
of Utah to have them enhanced. Is that the technique
they've got a computer technique and that they're using it

(13:25):
at the University of Utah to bring out Garrison says,
why don't you send it to eye Tach. They have
a real technique. They got a technique for removing and
sending back nothing but the bill. This is a friend
of mine out there and it's on its way back now.
But it's in the original. When you look through the glass,

(13:46):
you can see you can see the guy's face, but
you can see this hawk nose profile I call it.
Do we know what color the shirty was wearing that day? Well,
I have the colored picture of him at the jail.
I've been trying to get that, but it looks black.
Twenty six volumes and here's a guy they arrest on
November twenty second and there's no mention of it. Well,
they mentioned him, they let him testify. I guess you're right.

(14:09):
What I remember about I Tech is the president of
a tech used to be in the CIA. Ray Marcus
found a bibliography, was supposed to debate him on radio.
And if they dug up a bibliography and found out
a background, that made it clear that this man was
a former CIA man. Remember that. Yeah, some of the
time they tech man didn't show up, but Marcus had

(14:32):
developed it. So when they did, what they did was
use a CIA contact to say nobody's there. Who else
you got on your list? It just continues. You want
to hear some more, Just give me a few and
we'll run out of time. Isn't that a hell of
a picture? You don't know who took it and where
it came from. A guy named Fully developed it in

(14:53):
a photo lab in Dallas at the request of the FBI.
He printed an extra copy, two extra copies, and returned
the negative in the original back to the guy. And
he didn't know any record of who took it. The
FBI never got this in the warrant report. That's beautiful.
You got a copy of it, though I know it
was taken the morning between eight and ten thirty. At

(15:13):
ten thirty, the sun came out and the sky cleared up. Oh,
he's not talking about the alterns photo. This is an
actual photo. I don't know about. The sky cleared up
about eight o'clock the building opened up. No parking signs
were put up the night before and taken down that afternoon.
If that's Ruby's car down there, it would certainly support
the possibility that Ruby's up there, wouldn't it. He leaves
a car and someone else picks it up. There's a

(15:35):
guy getting into the car. Do you think that's a front.
I think he's standing at the corner. No, he's standing
right about where the truck is. It looks to me
like he's climbing into it. His hands are in his pockets.
The glass is done. Oh really, I wonder what happened
to him. What's that magnifying glass? Well, that was Boxley's,
so he probably took it with him. I'd like to

(15:57):
see that with a magnifying glass, but I can't see
it with it. You have to have a bright light
shining on it. But I see him with his right
leg up sort of climbing into the car. It may
be my imagination. I've been looking for guys in red
shirts and other pictures taken later in the day to
see if I can match it up. Because there's a
red shirt in the window and a red shirt getting
into the car. It's very interesting. Let me get a

(16:20):
few more of these names out of the way and
then we can de Mornshield. Everybody knows about China, Yugoslavia, Haiti, Cuba.
I think now there's a good probability that while he's
undoubtedly intelligence, I think he may be a patsy in
another way to call attention from persons more seriously involved.
The reason I say that is that after it became
apparent in the twenty six volumes, is precisely the opposite

(16:42):
of what you're thinking it's gonna be. You actually reach
a point where you begin to realize something is pointing
to a person you can eliminate him, and when something
is newted it's important. So taking that point of view,
I put Demornshield aside and started going through the other
names you didn't hear about as much except in passing,
and all of a sudden I hit what I wanted to.

(17:05):
But I had to work all night on the damn thing,
because he's really hardly mentioned. That's Max Clark, one of
the first in Dallas Fort Worth to get to know
Lee and Marina after their return from Russia. Clark testified
that Oswald had obtained his name and phone number because
Clark's wife was Russian. Clark testified that Oswald told him
when they met that he was disappointed because Russia was

(17:28):
not like Karl Marx and it was not true communism,
and then he thought it was just as bad as democracy.
Now compare this now. Honestly, the CIA is a little
heavy here, isn't this pitifile? Now they can smell this?
And when you find out this guy was formally with
the security operations of General Dynamics, described by de Mornhild
as chief of security at Conveyor Holy shit, Converre. Robert

(17:50):
Oswald worked at conver Well. It's listed in one place
that he worked in convert in the directory, and I
believe he was asked about it and said yes, and
that's all they ever talked about it. But conve is
most certainly cut out. It went on to become General Dynamics,
and conver also employed a guy named John Oswald who
was married to a woman named Margaret Oswald in Fort

(18:10):
Worth at the same time that Robert Oswald's living in
fort Worth. The name John Oswald pops up a couple
times in the assassination story. One time Marguerite Oswald names
her husband as John Oswald. Her former husband is John Oswald.
Don't understand that one, But there was John Oswald working
in Fort Worth at conver along with Robert Oswald. But

(18:34):
I have a feeling that if I actually go through
and do a chronology on Robert Oswald, I have a
feeling that the dates will conflict with his employment at
like Acme Brick Company. So all right, so let me continue.
I'm gonna reread this now, compare this now. Honestly, the

(18:54):
CIA is a little heavy. Here is in this pitifile
now they can smell this. And when you find out
this guy's formally with the security operations of General Dynamics,
described by De Moornshield as chief of security at Conveyor
which became General Dynamics, I understand chief of security. By
the time the Warrant Commission arrives on the scene, he's
a lawyer. I don't know when he made the transition,
but you can see what his philosophy is. I've got

(19:16):
a note to compare the affidavits of fellow marines one
after the other. This is just another marine. But here's
a guy who says that Russia is just as bad
as Democracy. So that leads to general dynamics. We have
Norman Gallo, librarian Napoleon Avenue Branch Library in New Orleans.
We found that Oswald visited the library at regular intervals,

(19:36):
most of the times on Thursdays. Libraries are standard drops
for intelligence operators. We just learned recently that Norman Gallo,
one of the librarians at the time Oswald was visiting there,
formally served with the Air Force Intelligence in Asia. Ooh,
now that's interesting. Jim Oswald lived nowhere near Napoleon Street Library.

(19:57):
Nowhere near it, way the hell out closer to the park.
Gallo was in Air Force Intelligence in Asia. Gallo spoke Japanese, Italian,
and Spanish. After serving with Air Force Intelligence in Korea,
he was engaged in intelligence work for the federal government
in Washington, d C. From fifty seven to fifty nine.
Gallo subsequently returned to Japan for governmental work, returning to

(20:18):
New Orleans in the spring of sixty two. By sixty
three he was librarian at the Napoleon Branch library. What
the fuck? In other words, he has the right background
for a librarian. Fucking Garrison and his sarcastic attitude was
I love it. That guy is a heavy duty shot
caller in intelligence and becomes the head librarian at the

(20:42):
Napoleon Branch in New Orleans in summer sixty three. Are
you shitting me? Okay? Norman Gallo Glo, that's the name
for everybody to look into out there. I talked with
an acquaintance of his and asked him if he knew
what Gallo's work was in Washington before he was sent

(21:02):
back to Japan, and he said the Gallo wouldn't say
much about it, and he had something to do with
codes and with coding. Oh, with codes and coding. It's
funny because Oswald at that exact same time fifty seven
to fifty eight ish was working in Taiwan. Right, he
was at Taiwan, and he was also at Corregidor and

(21:23):
Supic Bay, and Supic Bay was where he was doing
what guarding the crypto van Right, that's where the belief
that Oswald had a crypto clearance, a very high top
secret clearance. I think they call that Q clearance today.
I'm not sure. I don't follow that shit, but I
think that's what that's called today, but crypto clearance, because
he was dealing with guarding the crypto van which held

(21:46):
in encryption stuff that they were doing back then, which
is really primitive compared to what we got today. It
wasn't no shot to fifty six, I'll tell you that much.
But that's an interesting connection there. So this guy norm
and Gallo might have a connection to the dul Oswald's
That's what I'm thinking. That's the first thing that comes

(22:07):
to mind. And early shit, if he was out there
and handling if he was handling him from the States
at the time, and then they switched places, he goes
out there after Oswald leaves there and comes back here
to go work at the CIA base at Santa Ana.
That's fucking crazy. So, yes, Norman Gallo just became persona

(22:28):
numero uno who needs to be researched. Gallo is an
example of a man who's obviously in the intelligence business,
but not necessarily part of the intelligence apparatus. Because Gallo
was opposed to the Vietnam War in his personal philosophy.
The point is that if we can locate Gallo, he
might give us information. He was strongly opposed to the

(22:50):
Vietnam War, and he said right after the assassination that
he didn't believe Oswald could have done it by himself.
What I'm getting to is that we can if we
can locate him, we may have somebody who may be
willing to say, yes, Oswald was with the CIA because
of his philosophy, and maybe you can locate him. He's

(23:12):
still a librarian and believe to be around Washington. Finster
Wald says, I'm sure. I'm sure is Hell going to
give it a good try. Garrison says Arlington or somewhere
in the library business. I have a man who's very
good at tracking individuals. I think that he might have
a cut loose the Library of Congress. Fencer Wald says,

(23:35):
I have a man who's very good for this. He
has twenty nine years as a special agent for IRS.
He'll dog somebody to the ends of the earth. First
name Norman Gallo. That's even easier to find. But you
see what that was. That was a drop and they
had Oswald engage in some function quite possibly fictitious missions,
perhaps a real mission in a small way. Now, the

(23:57):
interesting thing is, oh, you cocksucker, Okay, the end of
side six just cuts there and it takes up on
the beginning of side seven. I fucking pray it picks
up in the same spot. Let's look, uh sort of,
Garrison says. The office of the CIA is at the
Masonic Temple. It's in operations office. You know, it's got

(24:19):
to be off to the side, you know, but it's
a very busy place. In sixty three he got Oswald
having a key carry Thornley and then uh u what's
his name? Says uh Jiules Rico Kimball, and Garrison says,
uh Kimball, Sure he has a key too, he was
an employee. Oh so these guys all got keys to

(24:40):
the CIA office at the Masonic Temple. Crazy. In other words,
this fucking thing, man, it just brings me back to
like the Scottish Rite and stuff like that, Like this
is an area I really need to dig into, but
you want to guarantee that this is an area that
has no documents at all. It's this area. How do
you investigate an area that has no documents? Well, if

(25:01):
those documents of the potholes, look for the street around
the potholes. All Kimbo was sure he has a key too.
He was an employee. In other words, one of the
ways in nineteen sixty three you can identify a CIA
employee is that they use these keys. You have to
have a key, and it's one of the ways of
getting a message to them automatically without ever having to
confront them. So to what happens with Oswald goes to Dallas,

(25:23):
he ends up with a key at the post office
box there, and who has a key near him in
the post office, Jack Ruby. But it was just a coincidence, Finster,
Wald says, and they all laugh. Garrison says, Holmes Homes
speculates that at some length about a change of address
notification which was filed several days after Oswald was sent
back to Dallas. It was filed here in New Orleans.

(25:45):
It appears to me to be quite clearly in clay
Shaw's handwriting. But well, we talked to the post office
and they said, oh no, this is an interior form.
I go back to Holmes testimony and he's speculating out
loud how Oswald filed this in New Orleans after he
moved to Dallas. You know the words. They hadn't thought
of an answer, Now they have. It was an interior form.

(26:07):
They probably changed the form. If Fraser's training at Boeing,
did you tell me is Boeing New Orleans Boeing Seattle?
What was he being trained for? Beats the hell out
of me. We just come across Fraser. In other words,
Bill's going to have to go into that area when
he comes back. All right, here's some more I'm going
to have to go in a few minutes in sleep.

(26:28):
Here's Fred Lorenz, executive at downtown Lincoln Mercury where the
pre assassination tableau occurred. Now, the thing that Fred Lorenz
is he is the one who hired Jack Lawrence in
this case. We don't know where he is in now.
Jack Lawrence is another one. I kind of got an
understanding of who he is. What he is is the

(26:49):
low level guy. But he was there, it seems I
don't know what capacity, and he dipped back to Los Angeles,
So who the fuck knows? And the fact that we
even know about him is just sloppy work on their part. Again,
Yes I do. He's in Santa Anna. Fred Lorenzo. Supposedly
we got an address for him. I got Rose tracking him.

(27:10):
This trip great, that would be beautiful. What a place
to find him in Toskin, which is right next to
Santa Ana, right down from that hotbed. What's he doing
we don't know, except that he supposedly keeps Texas plates,
send them back, sends back for them on his car.
Sounds like another face in the crowd, doesn't it. He's

(27:35):
right next to doctor Bob Wells there. I've got Rose
checking him to get a better line. Wells comes in
another way, Wells Wells in the old church. He's an
associate of Bradley and McIntyre, and so was Faery in
that church. Wait, it doesn't sound like it's worth checking out,
does it? And everyone laughs? Speaking of license plates, there

(27:58):
was there ever a license plate stolen, a removed or
changed in Dally Plaza ending in the number one seven?
I don't know. There's a guy in Dee Plaza holding
up a license plate in his hand and all you
can see is the last two digits one seven. Oh
really at one ten pm? Of course, anybody having anything
to do with that if he didn't have his ass
out there by one oh, five must have been out

(28:20):
of his mind. Well anything could happened, you know, because
here it is five years later, and we still don't
know for sure whether or not it's one of the
spectators killed or a secret serviceman was killed. In other words,
it's still a possibility. But that's another thing, like no
one really ever talks about this because it's not really
much information on it. But for a long time there
was some talk that a secret serviceman was killed in

(28:44):
Dally Plaza and that there was this black couple who
after they left, there was like some red stuff spilled
on the floor and everyone thought it was blood. But
you know, one article says it's blood. Another article says
it turned out to be like spilt cherry soda or something,
you know, something ridiculous like that. And so that is
another one of these weird daily Plaza anomalies that no
one is really quite figured out. There was even a

(29:07):
secret Service man named as being the one who was killed,
but when you dig into that name, it turns out
he actually had died like at the previous shift or
something like that. I really need to know more about this,
but it didn't at the time. The amount that I
dug into it, it wasn't going in the same direction
I was with my research, so I kind of just
got the basics and moved on. But that definitely needs

(29:30):
to be further research. The dead secret Service agent in
Daily Plaza, which is and it was even announced on
the fucking news. You can hear they talk about it
on the news and he says, like a Secrets Offer
Service agent was killed and even when they die, they
have to die in darkness or something like that. Maybe
it was Walter Cronkite who said that, But that information
was like abound that day, but there's been nothing. It's

(29:52):
an information dead zone. So I would very much like
if anyone's out there and interested in that subject matter,
if anything you'd dig up you'd send to me, that'd
be phenomenal. I'd be more than happy to cover it here.
And uh all right, so picking up where was I
Where did you get this picture? That's a William Allen picture?

(30:15):
I never noticed, but Fred Newcombe picked it up and
gave me a copy. Here's a guy standing behind and
there holding the license plate. So William Allen, William Allen Pictures.
If anybody out there or anyone in the research chat
wants to dig up the William Allen pictures. That'd be great.
Boxley then says, foiled by Cia. Garrison says, what the

(30:37):
hell happened with this one? Boxley says, I got there
and a flurry of cars as I turned up, turned
up the block, taking off up the street. And as
I turned up to the door missus Canada. The transcription
is blurred and he says, the fellows just waved at her,
No at me. They waved triumphantly and went off up
the street. You took her off two car guys with

(31:01):
two guys a piece. Sorry, this is kind of a jump.
The writing's kind of jumbled here. Who were they? Well,
Missus Morett came to the door and said that some
friends had dropped by unexpectedly to take her to the
game at LSU. She was real sorry, but here was
the book mark lane left out, so I wouldn't have
any reason to come back. So I said, well, I'll
be back. All I got was the license number. At

(31:23):
least I came up with that. All four were guys,
four guys, two and her in the first car and
two guys in the back car. Young guys wearing dark glasses,
just as I waved and walked up to the porch
and they pulled out. Where'd you think they picked it up?
Out of our office? Somewhere the phone conversation, she told
them probably I think she's Cia. Say she fits it. Look,

(31:47):
her family is the one who got him speaking engagements
over at mobile at the Jesuit House. Now among his
effect that Beckley Plaza is a letter it says Beckley Plaza,
I don't know what they're talking about. Is a letter
to him at the Deesuit House stationary in Dallas, signed
by Paul Piazza. Ooh, Paul Piazza. Another name we need

(32:08):
to research. Paul Piazza, pia Z A or just maybe
two Zi's Paul Piazza, I strongly suspect is going to
turn out to be a cousin of George who was
in the Jesuit House school over there. Oh, so we
have another connection. A George Piazza possibly at the Jesuit
school related to a Paul Piazza here in Dallas. And

(32:30):
so there's another connection here going on. All this Jesuit
shits just screams of Cia to me. And it wasn't
John Bogie Morett involved with that. It was the older
Eugene John Morett who was involved with that stuff. The
guy got killed in the plane crash. Yeah, but I
was recently wondering whether the plane was made by Boeing

(32:51):
or Lockheed. Well, it's kind of funny because this is
from sixty fucking eight and we're and Boeing's are falling
out of the sky in twenty twenty five. It's really
fun and hilarious. Now that's interesting, isn't it? Because Boxley
says because they were about two weeks behind the Bureau,
the Secret Service was, but they got there and the

(33:11):
New Orleans Police Department has it in its files. Lieutenant
dear D e Er tells them that of the three
friends of Oswald that they have in their files are
a Joe Thompson, another guy called him Vogel ed Vogel
he means it's a Vogel, and George Piazza. They all
knew him in the Civil Air Patrol. George, of course,

(33:34):
was somehow connected with the ferry investigation by Eastern Airlines,
I think. But the name Piazza comes up again on
a letter to Oswald from the Jesuit House over in Mobile.
It's almost too much there aren't many Piazzas. Who else
you got on your list? Fred Lorenza in this case
is interesting, not so much because of his past, although

(33:55):
that turns out to be interesting because of all indications
Lorenz had been located in sand To Anna in the
Bob Wells group. Boxley says, that's John Lorenz. Though, yeah,
that's John Lorenz. But we're trying to find out whether
John Lorenz, whom Lauren Hall described as the most radical

(34:15):
of the bunch that hung around. In other words, it
may not be Fred. You don't know yet. No, the
Fred Lorenz that is in Santa Anna is definitely the
Fred Lorenz from downtown Lincoln Mercury. We just don't know
the whereabouts of John Lorenz and whether he is any
relative or not. Well, Garrison says, well, John Lorenz doesn't matter.

(34:38):
As long as he is. This is Fred Lorenz. Boxley says,
you see, they put up all this screen out in
Dallas to tell me Fred had gone back to Germany
and stayed there, and it was as recently as a
year ago. Garrison says, sure, that's because he had a
function in the assassination. Well, you're going to get some
more information on him. Yeah, I hope to be getting

(34:59):
at this trip now, Bud, listen to this background. Previous
employment of Lorenz was with the US government in Washington,
d C. Supposedly with the Department of Commerce, but he
had a special payroll factor, didn't he. Boxley says. He
got an overseas allowance twenty five percent. Garrison says, and
in World War Two he was a member of the
SS in Germany. How you like that just happens to

(35:21):
be an executive of the downtown Lincoln Mercury where he
happens to hire Jack Lawrence. Holy shit, holy shit. See
you don't find this stuff in the regular FBI documents
or anything else. You know, nothing the government's going to
fucking give you. Boxley says he got there just in
time to hire Lawrence too. He was just with them
a month. Fencer Wald says. Lawrence is pretty high up

(35:44):
on my list of people I want to check out.
Garrison says, I think so too positively. Fencer Wald says,
but this Wesley Fraser, he's the one who's just an
absolute puts me agast. Garrison says, he's red hot. In
other words, Fraser is so strong that he's just unbelo
believable that they would dare to get away with something
like this. That's pretty gutsy when you think about it.

(36:07):
The Chief Justice of the US, Fencer Wald, says, they
could have done away with the son of a bitch.
He could have met an accident, a real bad accident.
The point about Lorenz is that he probably came into
the CIA with the Galen apparatus. Ooh, with the Galen apparatus.
Holy shit. Probably that's the answer because the company, the

(36:31):
German Automotive Works, which is he is where he's formally
employed after the war, is right next to the CIA,
the Galen apparatus Munich and this old German Air Force
base where they test fly some of the U two's.
Garrison says, actually we speak of the CIA picking up
Galen apparatus, what they really did was to create the

(36:53):
Galeen apparatus after the war. Well, the Galeen apparatus. They
picked it up intact because they they had all these
ties with Eastern Europe in the Soviet Union. They picked
up a going apparatus. The question is the tail wagging
the dog? See Garrison wasn't stupid. He knew what time
it was I think towards the end he got exposed

(37:16):
to this kind of stuff a lot more. Sprague says,
you don't know what Lorenz looks like, do you no?
Or his description or picture? I got a physical on him.
You can write Richard Helmes, he probably has it, and
everybody laughs. Boxley says, probably dirty Dick can tell you
anything on Jack Lawrence. Here's Jack Lawrence, now employee of

(37:39):
downtown Lincoln Mercury. Well, everybody knows this story. I don't
know it. You want to tell him about Jack Lawrence,
Boxy says. Jack Lawrence told them a week or so
ahead of time that he was going to have to
leave November twenty second. He tried to make arrangements to
drive a car to California. He couldn't do it, but
anyhow he was supposed to have picked up the drive
away car. He borrowed car to do some last minute

(38:01):
details on the day of the assassination, about ten am
in the morning, and he took a car and left
with it. Comes running in right after the assassination. They've
been worried about him for two hours. Where the hell
he'd been comes in, white as a sheet. All he
goes in vomits. He is all torn up to hell.
He doesn't leave, he doesn't have the car. So Piazzo,
Frank Piazzo, and another guy go to pick up the car.

(38:23):
They find it parked down behind the picket fence. Now
we send after the assassination around one or two, and
the car is parked behind the fence. Lawrence later denies it.
He said, no, the car is parked off a side street.
But I'm inclined. Garrison says, it was parked behind a
fence because they acted on it. It wasn't merely words.

(38:43):
They called the police. As a result, Lawrence had to
spend the night in jail, and so this is another
restless night. Garrison says. People at the downtown Lincoln Mercury,
unlike most of the people in Dallas, acted on this.
In other words, they thought it was so suspicious they
called the police, and they arrested Lawrence, and they had
to spend the night in jail. So there's another arrest

(39:05):
that isn't listed. Ooh ooh. Boxy says he contacted the
FBI in the process sometime. Garrison says when he got
back to the YMCA after they turned him loose, he
called and complained about Oswald and gave them some information
about Oswald coming into Boreguard, what coming into Bogard b

(39:28):
E A U G A R D. I don't know
what he's talking about, not Boreguard but Boguard, and they
killed Boguard later, which it's probably a rattling around there somewhere.
I don't know which one they're talking about at the moment, though.
Sprague says he never told the FBI about the picket
fence story. Garrett says no, and the arrest wasn't mentioned.
Is there an arrest record on him? Boxy says there's

(39:48):
got to be, I think because it's in some volumes
that he spent the night in jail. Garrison says, either
that or they admitted admits that overtly. In other words,
it was all a mistake. Sprague says, you brought him
in here, right, No, we contacted him. Tom Bethel went
over and took pictures. I know now. I think this
helps you to see why Bogard was killed, though, because

(40:12):
Boguard Boguard, I think the spelling is off here, and
I think maybe Bogard is what they're really referring to.
Bogard would have known, but he would have had possibly
more details about Lawrence and Lorenz. What sort of car
was it, Bogard, Alfred or yeah, Alfred Bogart, I think
it was. He was the guy who was the Mercury

(40:33):
driver who took let Oswald take the car out for
a spin. Bogart was killed on Saint Valentine's Day a
couple of years ago. It looked like a suicide. Yeah,
it was an interesting death. They killed a Negro sheriff
in Virginia here a few months ago the same way.
You know, they elected a Negro sheriff up there. Did
they kill him? Well, suicide. But he gets in the car,

(40:55):
he attaches a hose, he runs it through. You know
a lot of people do after elections, pressing the press
of the responsibilities of the job, and everyone laughs. Jesus,
he might be behind the fence. Bogard committed suicide. That's
the story. Nineteen sixty seven Valentine's Day. Was he about
to crack or something? I think the government disposed of him. No,

(41:18):
but I mean they waited a long time. Yeah, but
they waited until we got interested. Oh, you were on
his talk. We were beginning to stumble onto those things.
What else you got on your list? Wait a minute
before you leave, Lawrence, What did he tell Tom of
any significance? Oh? Totally innocent, you know, Garrison said, here's

(41:39):
what he said. That's significant. It's all bullshit except for
one thing. He asked Lawrence, and he how he earns
his living? He says, where there's a special provision which
if you don't take to the GI bill, the government
pays you money anyway, and he laughs. Boxley says, I'd
like to get in on that. Garrison says, it's a limit.

(42:00):
It's limited to the Dallas operation. Man. Garrison had one
hell of a sense of humor. Did anybody ever ask
him or did he say why he threw up? I'm
gonna get into that in a second. How do you
know he threw up? He had a hangover, that's what
he said. And he didn't throw up until twelve thirty
five pm. That's pretty good. Most people throw up the

(42:23):
night before. And everyone's laughing. Garrison says, anyway, the important
thing is here that you have to compare this now
with Thornley. When I say how do you earn your living?
He's under oath, he says, I'm a writer. I said,
when did you last have anything published? He said, I
had a story published. I think in nineteen sixty five.
He doesn't work. I can verify, Garrison says, but he

(42:44):
doesn't work. Gordon Novelle gets the envelopes from McLean Virginia
Ferry was retired. All these key people, the ones that
they didn't kill, are retired. About his throwing up just
last week, I got interested in that end. I thought,
here are all these characters we've talked to, and most
of them are pretty cool, even if they are kids,
because they've got the US government behind them. But here's

(43:05):
one person who throws up. So I ask one of
our guys and one of our more experienced officers, to
describe the situation. I said, if I were to ask you,
in your opinion, what would cause you think to make
this man throw up? What would you say? I would say,
I'd say probably because he was one of the shooters.
And I'd say why, I'd say, because you could ask
anybody that's ever worked at any police force, anyone's ever
killed him. Man afterward throws up, but the guy standing

(43:27):
next to him doesn't throw up at all. He says
to ask any officer. Isn't that interesting. Honestly, that's bullshit, Garrison.
He knows, knowing no part of the operation would come
at a cause. But when you pull the trigger, he says,
every time I participated in a arrest where there's a
man's been killed, he throws up. Well, he's more likely
he throws up because he's caught, not because he's fucking

(43:48):
sick from shooting somebody. I think I'll send a man
over to West Virginia to live with him for a
little while. Garrison says, Let's let me suggest this too.
Here's here's the whole memo from Bethel you can pick up.
Garrison says, you can have the whole thing. Let me
suggest something interesting here. They don't tell you much about
his background. You may have a case of a man

(44:10):
who's a crack shot. Naturally, they don't indicate anything. It
indicates vaguely an army background. Then that goes on to
say he has some problem. It hints at dishonorable discharge,
but it's very vague. We've seen that before with intelligence.
But then it goes on to say he was a
supporter of Castro when in the service, and it lets

(44:32):
it go with that well as the supporters of Castro
in the late fifties were with the anti Castro operations.
By sixty three, he admits to being almost Birch Society
and the whole. Yeah, everybody around Lincoln Mercury said he
was right wing as hell, even with Bethel all he
could talk about. He starts talking to me, and pretty
soon he's talking about with the right wing cause. In

(44:53):
other words, the guy's committed. He's a Nazi. But the
point is to try to find his previous military background.
He seems to have come here by way of floy
I can give you something on that. He did receive
a bad conduct discharge from the army and got up
for being an all out Castro supporter back in fifty
seven or fifty eight. On his way from Florida to California,
he stops off in Dallas in October sixty three, got

(45:15):
a job at Lincoln Mercury stayed at the YMCA, which
is a meeting place. The YMCA. That's right, see Fred
Lorenz sales manager and so on. The YMCA being a
meeting place extremely important. Everybody fucking stayed there. Box says, Now,
he's not the kind of guy Lincoln Mercury was hiring.
I read all their employment applications. They're hiring experienced automobile salesman.

(45:39):
He doesn't know when end of a car from another.
They weren't looking for a crack shot. And everyone laughs again. Boxley,
he said he had worked at Chevrolet in Coronda Lane.
They never heard of him, but it was Lorens that
put him in. So where did they say he parked
the car? He said he parked the car on a
side street several blocks over, and says, Now, one other

(46:01):
thing that fits in with this. Almost all tableaus are
in a controlled situation. I guess it's company custom. For example,
the tableau in New Orleans in a scene Oswald is
distributing leaflets at an international trademark. You've got Shaw inside
running the building. In other words, I think it's reasons
for security. The guy knows he isn't going to be

(46:23):
hit on the head with a brick. Well, there's a
certain security blanket psychology to it that the guy feels protected.
Garrison says, right. Then they say he's giving out pamphlets
at Maison Blanche, and you look into it and find
out he's really out front of the Autobahn building and
that's where Carl Karla Korva is. So every place is controlled.

(46:44):
And downtown Lincoln Mercury he's coming in and so forth.
You have Lawrens as one of the executives, you have
Jack Lawrence in there, and you may have Boguard because
we don't know his role. But at the point, it's
controlled situation. But anybody ever check into the owner of
their company to see how they managed to get all
these people in it, who owns it and who runs it?

(47:06):
That's a good point. Did John Lorens ever become an
executive box he had experience for nearly a year at
Winkle Pontiac in Dallas, the way they did. After he
left SS he went to Australia. From Australia, he goes
to Honolulu. First, he went to BMW Autoworks in Germany,
didn't he Yeah? And so after Germany, after he left Germany,

(47:27):
I mean, so why Australia. That's the report from Australia
about the assassination that's classified. Do you remember that information
about the assassination? So this Australian information about the assassination
that is classified, where's at Donald Trump? That was from
a Soviet defector. Think so, no, I don't mean this one.
I mean the information about Oswald couldn't shoot. I mean

(47:49):
advance information about the assassination still classified from Australia. That's right.
Boxy says, Well, he went to Honolulu. He went into
business in Honolulu. The Department of Commerce picks him up.
Was before he got overseas living allowance, and he went
directly from Honolulu to Dallas to work nine months before
the assassination. He went to work for Winkle Pontiac, Boxley says,

(48:10):
and someone recommended him, so he comes in as a
sales manager. Garrison says. You see, when these patterns they accumulate,
especially when you look at it from this point of
view connections with the government, the idea of a bunch
of guys evaporates forever. In other words, it's part of
the entire military apparatus. There's too much of a redundancy
to backrun. These guys are a type. Sure, here's another case.

(48:33):
Here's Jack Crichton. He comes up for a minute and
then he's gone. About five o'clock in the evening November
twenty second, Dahlia Momantou mom Antau. Remember this is phonetic,
so we don't know this is correct spelling, but Dahlia
Momantu was called to translate for Police Force and interview

(48:54):
with Marina Oswald five minutes prior to the call by
Lieutenant Lumpkin, otherwise known as Lummy. A beautiful name for
a Dallas police officer. He should have been chief of
Police and everyone laughs of the Dallas Police Force. Mister
Mamantu received a call at the same effect from one
Jack Crichton. Jack Crichton, who was working in the book depository.

(49:17):
If I'm not mistaken, former Republican candidate for governor, there
was a Jack Crichton in the building. I'm pretty confident.
I have to look into that, though. The name is
ringing a bell, and I know he's been excluded for
most of the works. So I'm not talking about Joe
Molina either, former Republican candidate for governor. Is that right? Yeah,
he's the same good friend told us about. Well, then

(49:38):
they said, who was Jack Crichton. Mamantu replied that it
was his impression that Crichton was an independent petroleum operator
connected with the Army Reserve Intelligence Service, just like James Powell,
providing a service translation for Marina at a very early juncture.
That group is the group that was supposed to have
met in with the Bond building. There was an army

(50:01):
or intelligence group that met over there. According to a
guy who came down and told us about it, Crichton
was in that group. The headquarters, according is right outside
of Dallas. This connects like one hundred and twelfth or
whatever the number is intelligence group out of Dallas that
a bunch of Dallas Police Department guys were involved in,
which was connected to CIA. Jesus christ is thinking. It

(50:22):
was like the fucking most entangled web ever. Umm Boxley says, Oh,
and it's redacted. Thank you guys, thanks for the redaction.
Redacted did meet there, but Hunts, the Hunt, Mister Hunt
didn't meet with them. They probably there for some individuals
from an outfit redacted within the white Russian community in Dallas.

(50:42):
Did you hear anything about James Powell, who's next on
your list? Well, that's all I've had to accumulate. In
other words, it's just a matter of time. It's endless.
Can I ask you what you've been doing with a
couple individuals completely disconnected from what we've been discussing, and
then he picks up with a new subject matter. So
we're gonna call it here for today. But this has
been a blockbuster segment of this document. God, the the

(51:09):
the interconnectivity of everybody all the way up to the
Lincoln Mercury dealer and mister John Lorenz who how to
fuck you go from working with the intelligence and c
I A and and all this stuff and the Air
Force intelligence and whatnot and then you go to work
for Lincoln Mercury. What interesting. But that's gonna do it
for me today. Guys. I'll be back next time where

(51:31):
we will continue this amazing document. Thanks everybody,

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