Garrison-Sprague New Orleans Conference 9/21/68 Part 8

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Good morning, everybody, corey us bloody history. We're going to
continue today right where we left off with the Garrison
Sprague document. We're on page one hundred and twenty two,
and here we go. Garrison says, father McCann has disappeared
from the face of the earth as far as we

(00:22):
fenser Wald says, he's in Europe. Oh he is. What's
he doing in Europe? Hiding out? I think the reason
I asked that, the more I look at him, the
more interesting he becomes. Let me have Bill here this
because Bill is Dallas. Bill. Father McCann has been located,
not specifically, No, he's in Europe, but I think I
know how to locate him if we had any reason

(00:43):
to go that far. Is he still a father in
more ways than one? Yes, he was sleeping apparently with
three different women in Dallas at the same time. Boy,
that's what I call a father. There was a reverend
after my own heart. Has anyone ever seen a picture him?
I've never seen a picture. Does he still wear a
white collar and everything? That's as good as being with

(01:06):
the CIA, isn't it. The more you look at him,
the more he had advanced notice of the assassination because
he gave up the Cuban community's spiritual needs on about
October twenty ninth. Now that's a beautiful cover for an operator.
But he gave it up and resigned and left town.
But by the day of the assassination he was back
in Dallas. At the time of the shooting, he was

(01:28):
watching a television set in his family's home in Dallas,
and he saw the shooting over the television. Now, I
didn't even know that the parade was being shown on
television in Dallas, but apparently it was. It was not
it was not. Well, then part of the story is phony. Well.
In any event, he had a nervous breakdown as of
November twenty second and had himself put into an institution

(01:50):
or somebody put him in one. That's interesting. That guy
may become more significant now it makes sense. We heard
of the nervous breakdown, but probably the government taking care
of him. There were two other women. There was a
woman by the name of Marianne Ramus Ramus and another
woman by the name of Joanne Ramos Do goos no,

(02:13):
but yeah, that could be a sister. I don't think so.
This woman was not a cube and she was American.
Her husband was a baseball player. He was probably CIA.
And I base it on this. Not only do they
know priests cover an awful lot, but they do. Does
the Roman Church go along with this game? Yes, sir,
that's one of the oldest intelligence apparatus in the world,

(02:33):
the Roman Catholic Church fighting communism. What do they got
to lose by it? Who's more opposed to communism? Boxley says,
The church makes excellent meeting places, and they've got all
the facilities. They've already got the underground communication system. Garrison says,
let me put it this way. You show me a
priest who's screwing half the women in town, and I'll

(02:55):
show you a government agent. Well, he ties into this
another You see, he was over there in an area.
He ties through the anti Castro Cuban meetings which were
being held on Hill Street at the block from the
Duc arm Club. And it's also half a block from
where Larry Smith moved in. And that's also where these

(03:18):
guys went on the day of the assassination, wasn't it
they were missing? Is the owner still missing? Yeah, the
owner's still missing a couple of years now, isn't it.
He pulled out, but they were. Larry Smith admitted to
Pat Swank of Life Magazine that he was CIA billing
said he has it on tape by a mutual agreement
that they didn't print it in the article. That's the
best way to handle something like that. He came to

(03:39):
Dallas under the United Press cover, which is the traditional
like the Church and the CIA. It's even in Oswald's notebook.
Up is all over the place. This girl was up.
Wasn't she the one who's married to the McMillan. Yeah.
She moved into an apartment next to Ruby's stripper named
Robin Hood. Ruby had a stripper named Robin Hood. That's

(04:02):
fucking great. Ruby had two or three strippers in his
apartment house at four oh one to five Simpson Larry
Smith moved into the middle of them, and they set
up operations at the charm Club. Well, anyhow, father McCann
was in the area with the Cuban meetings. They've torn
the house down. What's the scenario we've got here, father
McCann and Robin Hood. It gets wild. What about a

(04:24):
guy named Charles crop Krop. That sounds familiar. Yeah, I
heard that, Well you should have heard it he's a
Chicagoan with ties to Shaw and Ferry. Oh, he called
us about a year ago. Is that where you got
that from a short memo? Yeah, I recently came across
it and reviewing the files, and he said that I
think before the assassination, he'd been working with some Cubans

(04:45):
in an anti Castro operation fundraising or something, and they
insisted in New Orleans that Sewn Ferry were connected with them.
We wanted to get more information fro him, but he
said he was afraid to give us any more information
and he backed out. And that's the U. Well, I
think I can get the guy to move him because
he's made a tape conversation at the request of the
FBI and sent the FBI a copy of it. This

(05:06):
was before the assassination. He didn't think about this again
until you reopen your investigation. He still's got the tape.
That would be great. It will not screw up anything
if I make a well you know it didn't know.
I didn't know what you had done with it and
didn't want to. He got scared. He got scared to death.
And we usually put them on the side and hope
that they will relax A little all right, I got

(05:28):
a guy in Chicago that might be able to do
him because the hard nosed approach doesn't do any good.
How about a guy named august Stinovich. Oh they're talking
about Augustinovich. Yeah, I think he's company in a sense,
and it doesn't it's mostly bullshit as far as coming
through with anything. Wasn't he a plant? Maybe? Yeah, that figures.

(05:51):
The guy who came in with the name of Augustinovich.
What's his name, Calvin Bull. I was sitting here and
he brought into me, and I'm not particularly good at
judging people, but in us in five minutes, I knew
he was a plant, full of shit or both. In
other words, that was nothing. He was put on us,
like the guy Mays was maz hm, I got a
rap sheet. He's not company basically because he's got a

(06:13):
rap sheet as long as your arm boxy FBI. Well,
they got ahold of him over there. He played a part.
He was just trying to lead you down the garden path.
I think, just tell him what you told me now.
Barnett had a death in the family. Barnett, the guy
who was coming His mother died two weeks ago. Apparently
in an emergency. He's going to contact you. Got some

(06:35):
tapes on the whole proceedings. I don't know whether he
wants to play the whole thing or not, not all
of it, just the flavor. What's this note about Leon Charles?
He'd like to get together with you, so he'll call you.
Both Shaw and Barnett are going to contact you sometime
in the next month. Can play as much as we'll
listen to sections. What real difference does it make when

(06:56):
you think about it, though? What if people out there listen.
I'm not security conscious anymore. The only thing I'm not
going to do is leave stuff around where they can
destroy it. That's all. If this Larry Smith was company
Larry Schmidt, you mean this puts a new light on
the whole ballgame. He came in and took over YAF
National Indignation Convention. YAF is hl Hunt's pet. I was

(07:21):
on Cupshaw with him in July. He was up there
on YAF to promote it. What's YAF Young Americans for Freedom?
We had this gal come up, you know, the well
scrubbed all American girl. Hall refers to them constantly. He
apparently is a bag man type that works. He could
be intermediary between Hunt and the operational level. Sure, I

(07:43):
think individuals like this are closely connected with the Pax
Americana organization. It's its life blood, Garrison says. Sure, it's
not all military. It's an organism that you have to
destroy Communism all over the earth or will destroy you.
That way is assured that none of these people can
see that. It's only a thing that will be destroyed
by this as America, that's all. If you do nothing

(08:05):
but think of it as financial terms alone, nothing else.
It's costing half a million dollars to kill. You're going
to tell me about the demise of Jack Perrin. This
has always been real intriguing to me. Bob Perrin. Well,
in other words, while I was why I mentioned to
go to Bud that just maybe you look, if you
look into it deeply enough, if you find the lines

(08:25):
leading to the federal government one way or another. Robert
Perrin turns out to have been killed in New Orleans suicide.
According to the police, Arsenic voluntarily consumed. Well, let me
tell you some of the circumstances. This was roughly in
October of nineteen sixty two. By the time the missiles
were discovered in Cuba, but before the Demalma. Is that
what that says? In other words, it may not or

(08:48):
may be connected with that. His background was that that
was that base in the Midwest. Joe Palmer learned that
he had previously served at some base in the Midwest.
I can't remember the name right now. What a military base. Yeah,
he was sent there and inquired him about him and
found a whole operation is awful of naval intelligence. See.

(09:10):
In other words, again you have that line. It's just
too much. Every individual involved in that line comes in there. Somehow.
You end up with this guy in New Orleans and
Nancy Perrin at the time. Now she's Nancy parent Rich
Hamilton where Hamilton of Promise fame. So we have a

(09:31):
connection between Kennedy and Promise, which is wild. Where is she?
She's up in New Hampshire. But one thing interesting about it,
she obviously knows what it's all about. In other words,
she's not scared like a person is scared of some
nameless dread. Her fear is very specific, fear that the
government will kill her too. That's her attitude. She's the
one that was followed up around here by private detectives.

(09:53):
She knows what it's all about. She says, I'm not
going to come down there and get killed. They'll kill
me too. In effect. Well, they could kill or in
New Hampshire just as easily. Yeah, but she wouldn't move.
So we've got we finally dug up the autopay report.
I don't know why the hell it took so long,
but it had been misfiled in the corner's office. Anyway,
I tried to get that when I first came down here,

(10:13):
and I got nothing but static over there. Garrison says,
I've been pushing low on it, and they finally came
up with it. And here's the interesting thing. And I
talked with Bill, and it seems to indicate an intelligence
way of murdering somebody. The police get a call about
one o'clock in the morning and the man's voice saying help.
I must get help. Come over here, seventeen thirteen Calhoun

(10:34):
Street before it's too late. I've taken something something like that.
And they come over to the house is all dark
and locked, and finally they gain entrance. They hear somebody
moaning in the room, and they gain entrance through a
back door and they get in the room and turn
on the light and there's a guy in his bed dying,
and they have either fumes all over the room, and
they have on the floor in the bed is a
can of ether with some kind of homemade mask. There

(10:55):
you see smell ether all over. And they take him
away and he dies at six o'clock in the morning.
And at the autopsy they open him up and he's
full of arsenic four grams. So it appears to be
Bill's remarks, but it appears that either fumes serve two things.
First of all, it's a way of knocking him out,
so you can pour arsenic down his throat with some
kind of bulb or something like that. And secondly, it

(11:17):
causes the police right away to say, look at this jerk.
The guy was inhaling ether, and then they haul him
off so they don't go for more toxic substances. Yeah,
I feel like it's too much for one evening for
a man to go for the ether and the arsenic,
and everybody laughs. They can control a degree of a
guy's unconsciousness. Now, if he's totally unconscious, they can't get
the arsenic down him, but they can knock him out

(11:38):
enough that he will swallow it automatically. Why didn't they
remove the ether because they wanted it to appear that
he was on ether, that he had some kind of
He had a number of puncture marks, no stomach pump
or anything. Also, it obscures the smell of the arsenic.
That's a strong smell, isn't it. Yeah, it would do that.
He had, However, a cut inside of his throat, some contusions.
I personally think they just shove the tin funnel in

(11:59):
his throat and the arsenic in when they got him
to the point of control by either they wanted you see,
the funnel or something of that nature would have created
the cuts in his throat. Now, there's no container in
the room that had arsenic in it. There is no
container in the better anywhere in the room that he
could have drunk from, just the homemade mark over an
old chocolate nutriment can with either fumes in it. Do

(12:20):
people breathe ether as pleasure? No? I was wondering if
he could have been taking it to come off of
something as redacted here. He had a number of punctures
in the veins as if he were addicted, and probably
he was, and I've been asking them around to see
if an attic will try to coming off of it,
kicking it with ether, like a drunk will try coming
off booze with formaldehyde. But I don't know. Well, it's

(12:41):
really terribly relevant one way or another. It doesn't really
matter as long as they put the cant here. Any
arsenic found in the house, none whatsoever. That's an interesting thing.
None whatsoever, Nothing that had arsenic in it. But he's
full of it inside. And furthermore, the question is how
was he able to make the call by the time
they get there. Guy's unconscious and moaning redacted. Run down

(13:03):
and lock his doors, or maybe he locked it before
he turned the lights off. He had no phone in
the room. But there's some interesting information about that. Nancy
Perron Rich gave us some additional info about that, because
he got mad at the idea and wanted to talk
to her. Why did she get mad at that, I
don't know. She was sweating it out or something. She said,

(13:24):
you tell Garrison to leave me alone, or I'll get
Arthur Weiss on him, remember Novelle's Weiss Arthur, Or I'll
get Captain Bradley of the State Police on him. So
there's your company man with the state Police. That's why
we can't get a copy of Fairy's memorandum. Ooh, Captain
Bradley of the state Police. They're saying a cia was

(13:45):
he judged suicide or murder? Suicide? But the police officer
who wrote it, and the police usually don't look below
the surface. But this police officer wrote the thing that
to indicate or point out some of these questions, like
container for arsenic could not be found. Didn't the corner
look at him that he died from arsenic poisoning? Yeah,
but that he rule it also a suicide. They don't
rule here. They don't rule that here the causes arsenic.

(14:07):
But the police didn't go any further in trying to
find out who murdered him. This is sop in New Orleans.
When we say good report, we mean relatively. In other words,
this is better than Dallas. But it's not like the
professionals as it should be. This was the end of it,
and they go on to the next case. Not as
good as Monroe or baton Rouge. I don't understand Nancy

(14:27):
Rich's antagonism towards your office. If she told all the
story to the Warren Commission. She told Mark Lane the thing,
aren't you glad? Though she told us more than she
told the Warren Commission. In a way, Boxley says, she's
afraid we'll ask her how it is that JD. Tippitt
sent for her to come to Dallas. Let's see, that's
another thing. We've been going through her testimony again and

(14:48):
it's become a parent that what's happened was, here's what happened,
and here's what Chrismin knows. Tippitt ooh. When her husband
leaves Bob parent and she can't find him, so she
thinks he may be in Dallas, so she calls the
police department. She calls Tippit. Why does she call Tippet?

(15:09):
It's not spelled out, but I think the probability is
because Tippet is a friend of her husband. Her husband
is previously at an O. N I base. Tippett used
to work with Ling Tempio. Fred Lee Christman knows Tippet.
Fred Lee Christmin is with Boeing. You see the whole
structure is you know what this fits in with? Now? Right?

(15:30):
What uh fairy said that Tippitt was one of the
guns on the roof that's blatantly false. He was standing
on Houston Street. God damn it, you're gonna have I'll
tell you who else who's been fantastic in this analysis
except for what I considered the one blind spot. This
is Urston, whose pure analysis has been awfully good. Urston

(15:53):
says that this is ridiculous and I never gave it
any thought, but the rest of it. His analytical mind
seems to be first class. In the window and nobody
in the window. Tippitt could have been the guy on
the roof with the mauser, Yeah he could. Doesn't matter where.
It's somewhere from the building that they were shooting. Okay,
so guys, just to make this really clear, this is
wrong because I know they're speculating, but Tippett was captured

(16:16):
in the Robert Hughes film standing on Houston Street. So
there you go. He wasn't a shooter at all. He
was standing on Houston Street. Tippot could have been the
guy on the roof with the mauser, Yeah he could,
doesn't matter where. It was somewhere in the building that
they were shooting. Do you remember the Captain Blake said, oh,
here was a security guard on the roof across the mall.

(16:38):
Just saw you're saying that nobody on the sixth floor window.
I just happened to think of something else that hit me.
I came across one of the people's testifying about the
man on the sixth floor, was that Arnold Roland, Right,
Arnold Roland had no address, but he had a post
office box in Dallas, and he'd just gotten that post
office box a day or two before the assassination. What
do you think of that? We've always treated him. We're
getting back on our paranoia again. I guess you're right. Basically,

(17:02):
this was a helpful witness because he points to two
guys up there. But what he's really doing probably they
changed scenarios. You know, at the beginning they have a
Cuban plot. They were trying to tie Oswald and not
only to Cuba, but Russia and somewhere. They had to
change of plans, and Roland may not have handled his
assignment right because on the twenty second he had no address.
When they went to the place he was supposed to live,

(17:24):
he didn't live there anymore. His forwarding address was the
post office box. Where was he living? I don't know.
So it reflects on may Or Kabel and Chief Curry
all them. So he suspects tape is being recorded at
a much lower pace something something something, some miscellaneous notes,
so he suspects Roland also, Well, that's interesting. I didn't
know that, but I separately recently came across Rolland with

(17:45):
a post office box and it rang a bell, and
I dug into it. And he wasn't living at the
house where he was supposed to live anymore. You know.
The guy who screwed them all up, and was Jurrell
because of the gunfire scared him and he ran around
the corner and he sees a guy running out of
the back door, so he had to have a bike accident.
So they killed him or somebody killed him anyway. That

(18:07):
interesting thing gets back to Robert Perrin. He's not only
seemed to have this background which is connected with naval
intelligence in one sense, with JD. Tippett in the other.
Here in New Orleans, he had a connection with some
kind of Louisiana State Police. So I think there's only
one organization in the country, in the world really which
touches base with Oweni and JD. Tippett and the Louisiana
State Police and that's the Central Intelligence Agency. It has

(18:31):
these different forms. When they reported the suicide, you know,
they didn't report it to city police. The guy called
help called the state police. They delayed things too, So
you can put Tippet possibly as one of the riflemen. Possibly.
I think it's quite possible this hits this testimony redacted.
But he still is driven there from the building at

(18:53):
the time they saw him. Do you have any way
of checking on Weiss and that name? Trying to check
on it now. Police reports it is wise, but they
don't know yet. Seymour Wise was the head of the
Roosevelt Hotel. What do you know about the man named
Mike Barclay. I've seen the name on a report or something,
but I can't place it. He was a big buddy

(19:14):
at Jack Ruby's and he was in Dealey Plaza. That's interesting.
I don't know anything about him other than that on
Roland I had to make a note. Goddamn, they had
more people working for them in nineteen sixty three. Is
there any possibility that Ed Collins was in Dealey Plaza
that day, the one who was killed in four foot
of water? Yeah, because Steve Wilson and Dennis Haver took

(19:36):
him out. They drowned him off of Miami. Oh that's interesting.
I did ever do that, because I'm convinced that Ed
Collins is the one who was standing on the fucking
corner with Oswald in New Orleans. Is that what happened
to him? Yeah, And they must have drowned him for
some reason, because he was a fairly harmless character in
their league. He was supposed to be a pretty good swimmer. Well,

(19:58):
he was a skin diver, among other things. That's a
good thought. I knew he died under odd conditions, but
I didn't necessarily relate it to Dallas Well, Steve Wilson
and Dennis Harbor. That's one of the reasons I should
get a hold of Harbor, you know what, he's so
damn shook up about. Where'd you get this information? I
picked this up from Miami police. They have a report
on the guy. Are they sure it was not accidental?

(20:19):
They are sure, as we are in the case of
Parin it could be accidental. But the only thing in
the report is that sounded like they might have been accidental.
I might have been drinking, but that doesn't necessarily mean
that you're going to jump off a boat and drown
if you happen to be a good swimmer. What about
the name Dombrowski. This is the last living genuine liberal
in New Orleans. This is the last commye in New Orleans.

(20:40):
And everyone laughs. Garrison says, that's right. I don't think
he's a communist, but he was in his time liberal enough,
so he almost was. Whenever, So whenever he gets sick,
the FBI, I'm sure, sends a doctor over to his house.
They must have two hundred or three hundred banks of telephones,
this is true. They must have two or three hundred
banks of telephones in the sound room, because Dombrowski lives

(21:02):
in New Orleans and he can't even get out of
the house without crutches, and there are no meetings for
him to go to because if he's a communist, he's
the only one in the city. And they have the
sound room with all these things. It's unbelievable. And every
year the man asks to get more money because the
communists are increasing. Dombrowski is the nearest thing to a
communist left in New Orleans, so anytime something comes up,

(21:23):
they throw his name into it. Oswald and the questioning
you'll find in the early stages. Did he have any
connection with Dombrowski, Martello asked him when he picked him
up from the passing out to the leaflets. Martello is
a man of no mentality at all, and you can
see in his testimony and his idea of the plot

(21:44):
as something involved in Dombrowski. He was Banister's right hand man.
Reisman apparently is liberal and quite possibly from the liberal
structure of the CIA for all we know, but they
use him as a decoy because of the leaflets we
found near Reisman's house. If you go up they're on
the scene, you find they're just as near who's the
right wing in town the publisher Kent Courtney. In other words,

(22:07):
Kent Courtney has a printing press, and they are about
half a block from Kent Courtney's printing press. But they
would lead to element involved in the whole thing, so
they're trying to block half a block in other directions.
They find a liberal professor, so you have many pages
of questioning about Professor Reisman and the whole FBI investigation
of him when he goes out on the West coast,

(22:29):
and the leaflets were probably printed in Kent Courtney's press.
The Secret Service tried to talk with Reisman, but the
bureau pulled them off. They said, leave him alone. We're
watching him as if it were a security aspect of
the case. Well, why is Bill Berry not interested in Dombrowski?
Boxley says? Somebody snaked him? Say Barry, can you give

(22:51):
one of the other instances? Though? That will substantiate Collin's
death if he hasn't already. They did shoot the guy
on no name key and called the sheriff's office out
and came out from what the body and they said, well,
we're hunting turkeys and somebody mistook him for a pigeon.
Who was that guy? Do you know he's got the
name and everything. Is that the end of the police investigation?

(23:13):
That's the end of it right there? He was shot
in his family. That sounds like the Dallas investigation. What
do we know about somebody named Mario who might have
been in dealy Plaza? Marino is I think according to Patrick,
which makes it unreliable. The purchaser of arms for rich
Lockley in the Miami area? Is that where you get
that from? I think? So I'll tell you what's happening

(23:34):
somebody's feeding him a bunch of names that George Butler
fed me in Dallas in the summer of sixty seven. Dombrowski, Marino,
Ruth Payne. They got him tied up with this. How
about the name DH McFadden. Now McFadden is the guy
who was staying in Dallas. No, No, let's not leave
Marino for a second. No McFadden. That's what the memo

(23:56):
is so unusual about a guy waking up in the
morning about two or three o'clock and he here's guys moving.
One of them says, well, it's done, and the other
guy asks. The other guy says, be quiet. This guy
may be still awake, and they're moving out and getting
He gets curious and goes to look in their quarters
and he finds a couple thirty caliber cartridges, and naturally
he reports it and that's the end of it. But
there's a commissioned exhibit on this subject, which is unusual,

(24:19):
assuming they haven't twisted everything and changed it around. Here,
I have it open, Dallas leads. Yeah, I found out
what's important about that address, Jim, here it is William
Anderson and d H. McFadden. If there is a DH McFadden.
It can be very important because DH McFadden was one
of the guys who rented the cottage where the bullets
were found. Where'd you pick up the name from the exhibits?

(24:42):
I don't know. Everybody keeps asking me where I picked
this stuff up, and I don't know. Garrison said, well,
you better take a look at tho this one because
if they haven't changed the facts on it, that's on
Kelton Street, isn't it. Well anyhow, he had a room
in Dallas on November twenty second after he checked out,
shells were found in his room. Mysterious character. I got
this from Lauren Hall's memo. Wonder where he got that?

(25:05):
I don't know, it's from your files. That's why I
asked you where Joe Cody lived. That's the thing I
was trying to tell you on the phone the other day.
Joe Cody lived on Ann Arbor at the time. Where
you're going to make note of that on three inch
space that I left, because it's very important. They might
have had an adjustment to move it away from Joe
Cody or something. Yeah, or that was the operational base.

(25:28):
Maybe Cody found the place for them to rent. Yeah,
that's too close to Joe Cody because it was probably
Joe Cody's truck that was used. Joe Cody flew out
of Dallas on Sunday. How about Enrique Molina falsely do
you think? I don't know whether it's false or not.
I just know that it's the Hunt group that was

(25:48):
trying to put me onto Molina. If that's the Molina
who works the depository, no, no, no, it's not the
same one. I've seen this other Molina come up, but
I don't think that's the one of the depository apparently
had nothing to do with it. Incidentally, this thing about
Steve Wilson, Dennis Harbor, and Ed Collins had more significance
than just Ed Collins possibly being at the plaza. This

(26:10):
is the no name key group what's left of Patrick's raiders.
Ed Collins is in that picture on the Sheriff's office steps.
You know, Oh really, that's a good clear picture of
these guys, Ed Collins being on the steps in Daley Plaza.
I'm gonna have to do some digging into that. I

(26:30):
didn't know where it came from, but what Rose said
was that Collins had breakfast with Lee Harvey Oswald at
Nellie's Hamilton, Nellie Hamilton's boarding house. Who the fuck is
Nellie Hamilton? All right, all right, Diana, if you're listening,
we need to dig into this Nellie Hamilton's boarding house
and Ed Collins in Dallas connection to Lee Harvey Oswald.

(26:56):
Where did we pick that up? That sounds familiar? Came
out of Miami somewhere. Rose picked it up on his notes,
whether it came from Martin, Xavier Casey or who I
know where it came from. It came from the other
Jean Bradley, the pilot, Leslie Bradley, Leslie Bradley, Yeah, did
you interview him? No? But Rose apparently picked it up.
He's apparently working for Lehigh Comet now in Miami. Who

(27:21):
talked to him Boxley? Did you Nope? Didn't talk to
him here? Nope. To Bradley, Yeah, they talked to him
in his office. But I guess I was gone. Do
you think he's involved in anyway? No? I don't think so.
That cement is interesting though, because Sylvia Odio had been
supported financially for years by Rogers and four A. Four
A is the cement man in Miami, and he and

(27:42):
Rogers who has Texas Industries were supplying the cement to
build missile silos in Cuba. Say, that's right. And the
mercenaries are involved in that business too, And the mercenaries
are sponsors of j. Edgar Hoover. They owe him. In
other words, when he becomes something to a party of mercenaries,

(28:05):
he mixes the drinks and everybody laughs. You know the
story of this manager of the hotel where they have
this Chii party out there, you know, big bulls a
chili around the around the Murkinson and sid Richardson and
Hoover sitting there, you know, and they are slapping up
the chili, telling dirty jokes. And Sid Richardson was an

(28:27):
uncouth bastard, you know. He says, Edgar, get off your
ass and get me another bowl of chili. Edgar gets
off his ass and gets a bowl of chili. That
was the relationship of and subserviency of the director of
the FBI to sid Richardson and Murkinson and those guys box.
He says, That's why I was interested in Sir Hannes
racetrack operations, because the Murkinsons owned that racetrack out there.

(28:54):
That's interesting. They owned the del Meyer they've got the
lease in del Meyer. Wasn't he working up at Hollywood Park?
Might have been. Did you ever hear of a mister
cast Mister Caster knows a lot about Sylvia Odio. Robert Caster. Yeah,
she's in Arlington. Now that's the one that Harold Wiseberg
keeps calling from. Fenser Wald says. Anyway, she relates that

(29:18):
Rogers took in Sylvia Odio after an operation and she
lived in the house. Consequent to that, Missus Rogers asked
missus Caster who she should go tell some information about
the assassination to, and mister Caster sends none other than
your old buddy George Butler. And George Butler subsequently had
many meetings with Missus Rogers. And with this Mary Anne

(29:40):
can't think of her last name. Did you ever meet
with Sylvia Odeo or do you know her? Is that
why Sylvia Odio is so uptight? Now? I don't know,
but I don't think so. The indications are because she
moved out of Dallas shortly after and went to Puerto Rico.
Have you told these gentlemen about the false Sylvia yet? What? No?

(30:00):
I visited Silvia Odeo in Chicago. But it turns out
it was in Sylvia Odio. It wasn't. No. Everybody is
described as a beautiful woman. The woman I talked to
was short, dumpy, and ugly. She's supposed to be luscious. Well,
this woman was not only not luscious, she'd never even
been in her younger days. You were just mad because

(30:21):
you couldn't make any progress. I couldn't even get her
to talk with me, and everyone laughed, well, you had
the wrong Silvia Odio. Then I had somebody who pretended
to be Sylvia Odio and answered to the name Sylvia Odeo.
I heard she was in Evanston. This was in South
Chicago Street, Loud Street, and she answered to the name
of Sylvia, and her husband answered to the name of
Gierromo Mohara. And they looked at a whole bunch of pictures,

(30:44):
including from the no Name Key and so Forth and
Hall and Seymour and Howard, and just shook their heads
and wouldn't discuss it. And that was sort of the
end of it. I think she's back in Puerto Rico.
I think she's in San Juan. She's not the woman
I talked to. But someone is going to the trouble
of posing as her, that's goofy. It it is goofy,
but the whole thing's goofy. So that means she's very
important if they've done that, well, she made a whole

(31:07):
bunch of lies and a whole bunch of false testimony,
and that's a big problem. I think Oswald did actually
call call on Sylvia Odio. Nope, sure didn't. I'll tell
you what I think they did. I think she probably
said was essentially true when they got through changing it
around in Roger Craig's testimony, they made twenty three different changes,
and the twenty third change was do you want to

(31:29):
copy after this? It's typed? And he said yes, and
it was changed to know. In other words, they literally
did whatever they wanted to with it. So they probably
grabbed her as to meaning, and it's probably quite significant.
Oswald comes in with two other guys when they finished
the description, and you can't tell who they were, Okay,
so just reiterate, I don't know how to fuck. Garrison

(31:51):
didn't know this, but the Sylvia audio visit was William Seymour,
Lauren Hall, Lawrence Howard. Okay, Lauren Hall admitted this. I
have the document, so I think it's also possible that
she's company and that she made up this whole thing too.
This is a big key to analyzing and that's where
Ferrar comes in. You know Ferraar's real name, it's not

(32:14):
Max Ferrar. Don't you bet on it? Oh? Really, Paul's
really trying to shield him now and it's the same family.
Are you sure? And that's what did he die of?
I didn't know he was dead. Oh he's dead, box,
he says, Kiki Ferrar last year or so? What did
he die of? I don't know, pneumonia or something. He
has a dentist brother, Kiki mass Ferrar. Now. I asked

(32:37):
Hall that and I said, now, this Kiki Ferrara in
Dallas is different from the Kiki mass ferr in Miami.
And what did he say? He said, yes, I think
he said they are two different people. I don't believe so,
but I couldn't prove it. He seemed to be telling
us the truth in most areas. Who Hall he really did?
He changed his story considerably through the years. I'll tell

(33:00):
you what I think they did. I think they structured
Hall and Howard into the thing, and I don't think
they told us the whole truth. But I think they
told us as much as they could, but got screwed
on it. I don't think they had a thing to
do with the setup, but their names were thrown in,
so anybody Journeyer, God, damn it, fucking Garrison, Oh my god,
you're so disappointing, so disappointing. Jesus fucking Christ, Garrison. You

(33:21):
have a picture of the fucking guy journey Into there
spends a year wrestling with Hall Howard or Sylvia Odio.
I mean, it's just another decoy, That's what I think
it is. How about Emmanuel Taurus. Emmanuel Taurus. That's the
one I found, isn't it. That's the one that Croman
kept saying was one of the gunmen, the Taurus brothers. Oh,

(33:45):
he's talking about the brothers who went up there allegedly
with Frank Sturgis. It's another bullshit story. I think Croman
is totally out of it, except when he quotes what Neguel,
which has some authority, he misquotes. I mean, he gets
it somewhat garbled because of the time sequence. He could
possibly be. Where do we have the name Emmanuel Taurus.
We came across that before, I know, but we've had

(34:06):
Miguel Torres, you may be getting it mixed up. Can
I interrupt for a minute? I really should go back
with both Bud and I with some kind of recommendation
to missus Pomerants on how the hell we can make
use of her connections, money or whatever. She's connected with
all the liberal organizations and knows everybody in them as
far as I can tell pretty well. She's also not

(34:28):
only got a lot of money of her own, but
all the people that she knows seem to have a
lot of money. Now, I haven't been able except for saying,
just keep writing out checks and supporting some kind of
These people aren't going to do anything. They haven't done
anything for the past five years. I don't think they
will do anything now. But she suggested she said something

(34:48):
about Americans for Democratic Action was going to put through
a resolution. Hell, any resolution anybody puts through it is
better than nothing. But to be blunt about it, I
can't think of anything more effects than money to keep
the investigation going, Boxley. It's the best thing in the world, Garrison.
We're constantly running out of it. If these people aren't

(35:09):
going to do something on their own, aren't concerned enough
to have anything done about it. By now, they aren't
going to do anything anyway. Not true. No, they haven't
had the opportunity of being exposed to us. Maybe you're right, Bill,
I just think feeling that. My God, if there's anything
that's clear, it's the government's false position on the assassination
and media. It's clear to you and me that they

(35:29):
are beginning to realize it now. I don't think we
should prejudge their intentions. I'm glad to hear you say,
because I would like nothing better than to be wrong
on this point. Well, a couple of things have happened. One,
there have been two assassinations. They the last one really
shook them up. That's a good point. And Two, there
are a whole new anti war liberal movement that's just

(35:51):
really gained a head of steam in the last six
to ten months. That's separate and apart from the old
liberal establishment, the establishment liberals. These people are the ones.
They have a lot of money. What do you think
can be done? I think we should. Well, maybe someone
can start that, Maybe something can be started, and that
will snowball. That's it. I think we should do everything

(36:13):
possible to educate the people like this lady. She was
kind enough to bring us down here at considerable expense
in order to get us together. I certainly that shows
definite good intentions. And I think that there is a
very definite possibility that when I say these assassinations are synergistic,
that is exactly what I mean. That they may be
able to stand on one barely two, but it gets

(36:34):
to three. Well, you know, is there anything more arrogant
than to have the third one occur while we're investigating
the last one? The consciousness of their power unbelievable, and
especially if this turns out that Ernesto pugeit was at three.
I don't know whether he fired all the shots, all
of them, but if he were all three of them. Boy, Okay,

(36:54):
I don't know this name, Ernesto Puget, pug two, pug
E t Ernesto Puget. I don't know why he's talking
about him, but he's talking about him, about the kind
of a shooter. I guess, is that your new name
for Frenchie. I'd say, we've got to see missus Wright. Yeah,
I think we ought to touch base with her. Okay,
so Frenchie, I'll call him that until we're sure and
We don't know whether he was. I can't these guys

(37:16):
never made this connection at all. The short tramp is
Vincent called to her own junior, and they never made
this connection. God, I wish I could fucking sit down
with Garrison and have a conversation with the fucking guy.
He came so close on so many things. I'd say,
we got to see it, missus right, Yeah, I think
we ought to touch base with her. Frenchie I'll call

(37:37):
him that until we're sure. And we don't know whether
he was at all three, except there is a good
chance he was at the King one. Whether there was
a good chance about Robert Kennedy, I don't know, but
he's the guy I'd sure go after hammer and tongs
if the money is forthcoming in sufficient quantities. I think
we can put an organization together to work parallel with yours.
That would be good, and we could do a lot

(37:58):
of things that you can't because, for the very thing
we brought up earlier, if you send someone up to Birmingham,
you're nothing but a smartass again, and so forth. There
are certain things in a governmental group that a government
can't and vice versa, and only I am aware of.
But if they will come with any sufficient money, and
thought of them has occurred, and it's half baked thought.

(38:20):
We haven't really done much considering that we might be
able to in time embarrass the government into reopening all
three of these cases by having what would amount to
a set of public hearings. Take Fraser alone. The Fraser
situation alone is overwhelming. We're going to have to get
a hearing and volunteer witnesses and going to have to
interest the press for them to come. I think it's

(38:42):
a great idea. If we could get money to support it,
we might do it. One thing they can't stand a
private hearing conducted in Washington, as Bud says, you wouldn't
have to present some grand feet. You don't have to
telegram who's coming in tomorrow. You know. Perhaps it could
be here to have protect itself. Perhaps it would revive

(39:02):
this competition of the press, because if the other side
gets the story, maybe you could make a deal, whether
AP or up, to tell them in advance who the
next witnesses were. Even NBC might do that. It would
drive the rest of them crazy. If one knew and
the rest didn't, that would be very interesting. I'll tell Fraser.
That thing cannot be explained that alone. Well, there's a

(39:24):
whole bunch of things. If you go down through this
whole long list of witnesses, what the girl's names and
whose testimony was changed. Julianne Mercer, she would make a
great witness. Marilyn Mourett's testimony was changed. The only thing theoretically,
Julianne Mercer would make a great witness. In reality, she's
like so many of them, frozen with fear. Let the
public see that too, if you can get her on,

(39:47):
she's frozen. Roger Craig would probably make a good witness.
If you think through the thing, you can think a
whole lot of the thing to do first would be
to start with some other investigative structure. If possible, it
would serve another function if its existence became solid. One
of our problems as we go along is that being
the last investigation decreases our chance for survival. In other words,

(40:09):
as it stands now, they can remove us from office
or remove me, Well, then that's the end of any inquiry.
But there's another one going. If there's just one more going,
that's all effective, like in Washington, then I'm not the
only one in the world that'll take the pressure off
of you two. All Right, looks like we're gonna get

(40:31):
into some different and changing subject matter here, so I'll
go ahead and I'll call it here for the day.
Thank you everybody. I will be back probably on Wednesday. Well,
we'll continue this. I want to knock this out in
the next four or five episodes so we can move
on to something else, get back to some Harvey and Lee.
But that's gonna do it for me, guys, and I
will see you on Wednesday.

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