Garrison-Sprague New Orleans Conference 9/21/68 Part 9

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning everybody. Corey use bloody history. So today we're
going to pick up right where we left off. We
are going to continue on with this Garrison Sprague document.
If you guys haven't yet, go check out independentmediatoken dot com.
We launched our token a couple of days ago and

(00:23):
it's off to a good start. But we look to
fund multiple independent media projects through this, so independentmediatoken dot
com go check it out. If you have any questions,
you can shoot me a message on Telegram or an email.
And that's the only sponsor for today. I guess since
I launched a project, I guess I have to sponsor

(00:43):
my own show with it. But all right, so let's
get down to business. We're going to continue from right
where we left off. Roger Craig would probably make a
good witness. If you think through the thing, you can
think a whole lot. Garrison says. The thing to do
first would be to start some other investigative structure. If possible,

(01:04):
it would serve another function if its existence became solid.
One of our problems as we go along is that
being the last investigation decreases our chances for survival. In
other words, as it stands now they can remove us
from office or remove me, well, then that's the end
of any inquiry. But there's another one going. If there's
just one more going that is all effective, like in Washington,

(01:25):
then I'm not the only one in the world. They'll
take the pressure off of you too. Garrison said, yeah,
because there's no question about it. This organization, it's several
billion dollars a year, if not three or four, and
they are not going to put up with this bullshit permanently.
And they all laugh. So I think that would be
very important proposition to our surviving if another investigation came

(01:47):
into existence, if we can get the money, we'll try it.
That would be a good idea. Another one in Washington
or some area like that. Washington's a good place for
it because you've got the press already there and at
least some knowledgeable people. A road show wouldn't be the
best place, of course, would be Dallas. But I'll be
damned if I'm going to conduct it in Dallas. And
everyone laughs. Dallas is one of the worst places. I

(02:10):
wouldn't go down there and conduct it for a million dollars,
so help me. They got you monitored from the time
you come into town, they know more about you by
the time you get there than anything you can find out.
I think it's a good idea. It should help us
survive longer in this situation. Meanwhile, I think I can
deliver a message that continual injections of funds into your

(02:30):
investigation confidential, no name revealed, would certainly still be useful,
wouldn't you say? Certainly? Would we have an endless budget problem?
Naturally I can't go publicly, and I don't know how
they did it, but the Citizens Group in New Orleans
disappeared completely, and I think they found indirect ways to
take care of every one of them, so that if
you went to them, there wasn't any specific pressure. All

(02:52):
of a sudden, one day they came and didn't meet anymore.
They were chatted out of it. How do you suppose
that was it? I think they were embarrassed of it,
the establishing, the establishment, reasoning, you don't want to get
mixed up in something like that. The press harassed them too,
Truth or consequences. Yeah, all of a sudden they didn't
meet anymore, and all of a sudden they there weren't
any funds anymore. I think we can do the same

(03:14):
thing to government in reverse. If we have a little luck,
their situation really is impossible. If we can just communicate,
it's indefensible. However, himself, none of them can survive daylight
in this thing. That's why they're going doing so much killing,
so countermeasures. If there's another organization available and some money available,
it might make a big difference. Well, then she mentioned

(03:36):
specifically Americans for Democratic Action is considering a resolution. Are
they still effective at all? I thought they had their
day pretty much faded. It has. I think Mark Raskin's
new group, which is really a third party or the
fourth Party or whatever they call it, as replaced that
ADA and the liberal flank of the Democratic Party. That's

(03:57):
where these people come from. You can't expect any money
from the establishment, whether it's Republican money or Democrat money,
because the establishment is rather monolithic with respect to this thing.
So if you're going to go get any money, it's
going to have to come from either the very far right,
where we don't really have much hope of getting any
or from some relative left where we do some hope.
The only people that's right, the new left and the
very conservatives are the only ones that are interested and

(04:20):
for exactly opposite reasons. Each thinks that they're going to
be able to blame the other one for all the killing,
and we don't know. They have as much as told
us on Hard Right that if Jim would jump up
and say that he's wrong, he was just honestly mistaken
that it was communists who did it. Funds would be

(04:41):
I would be on a ticket as a vice president
with Hubert Humphrey. That's from the frying pan into the fire.
You know, it's almost a comedy when you see the
supposed presidential race and each one of them is trying
as hard as he can to speak differently from the other,
and they can't find any way to speak differently. They
talk about the same war. There's a slight bit of difference.
Nixon speaks in more specific terms about rebuilding NATO, and
everyone laughs. Jim, could you do aggress for a few

(05:05):
minutes and tell me what the federal government has done
specifically to impede your I'd rather pick that up tomorrow
or Monday, because my mind is too tired to go
into fresh areas. In other words, what's Barney Conrad doing,
Dick anything he's been over in Spain for the last
two weeks, but before he left he finished the first
half hour program half hour movie eight. This fellow Barnaby Conrad, Jim,

(05:28):
I don't think we talked about this guy, a book
writer and a bullfighter. He invented the technique of using
still pictures to look like you're looking at a movie
by zeroing in. And he did a TV show on
Leonardo da Vinci a couple of years ago, which apparently
was a big hit, in which he introduced the technique. Well,
the guy McClellan, who owns KLIF Radio in Dallas, formerly
with Naval Intelligence, approached Barnaby Conrad sometime this spring and

(05:51):
told him that he wanted to do a two and
a half hour documentary's on assassins, starting with radio tapes
that he has from the radio station, and adding to
this movies and still pictures. You know, the Conrad technique.
First half hour would be pure documentary covering what happened.
The second would be an analysis of it, arriving at
the conclusion that there had been a conspiracy. Now, I
don't know communist or what McLendon is funny, you know,

(06:13):
he gives these editorials on his network of stations. The
one the other day was that you shouldn't be generalizing
about the oil industry being involved without evidence, but by
the same token, you should be allowed to bring Shawt
a trial and to pursue your case. That seems odd.
I think that's because he hopes it was some left
wing conspiracy and he's convinced that it was apparently according

(06:36):
to Conrad. Anyway, Conrad came to see me and he
spent the whole day. I loaned him some of my pictures.
He's made the first half hour, but he hasn't made
the second half hour yet, and he realizes it will
take a long time to do that. But the first
half hour he's already made, and he's been trying to
sell it to television stations in San Francisco. But I
don't think he sold it yet. I'll tell you where
this fellow stands, McLendon. This guy is. There are too

(06:57):
many intersections. He's a friend of Jack Ruby's. He's connected
with the Murkinsons. He has freaky sex parties out on
his ranch. He's come up too quick out of nowhere,
meaning that he's either backed by the Murkinsons. From a
disc jockey, your radio announcer to a magnet with now
a bunch of stations. He's a close friend to this
guy in Los Angeles, Roy Lofton. Roy Lofton just fell

(07:18):
into place. The reason Roy Lofton has so much money
is that he handles all of the controlled environment air
conditioning places like Kate Kennedy, Vietnam and so forth. And
all he does really is write letters. And he's connected
with the murkansons in Gordon McLendon and Bobby Baker. So
McLendon is part of the crowd capital t NC Boxley says,
NSRP is the overt operation of this bunch. Theirs is

(07:41):
the money that keeps the NSRP going. Yeah, In other words,
doesn't cost him, So he pays Barnaby Conrad to do films.
On the other side, that's all right to prove that
he's not one of them, do anything he wants. In
other words, as long as they can own the government,
what difference does it matter what the subject of the
film is. There wodn't any connections between his radio stations

(08:02):
and McIntyre's with their No, I don't think so. No,
he's strictly commercial broadcasting, no religious overtones, pop music and
like classics. Garrison said, I think the man ought to
go ahead with it, but I just wouldn't count on
it too much. But the important For example, one of
Jack Ruby's last letters, Ruby's letters almost have one thing
in it, and that is Johnson knew about it beforehand.

(08:23):
Now that's very important because it explains why they went
to such great lengths to have him found insane. Nobody
writes me more regularly than Melvin Belly. Nobody works harder
for the establishment now than Melvin bell I now makes
in that respect, makes his role for the establishment clear.
I don't answer his letters anymore. So now he wants
to take a trip to Canada with him, And I

(08:44):
mentioned to somebody. They said they're going to glue reindeer
antlers on my head and everyone laughs. And he sent
me out the words. But the long chatty letters from
Melvin Belly. The point is you see part of this
structure there. That's why they went out of his way
to make the acquaintance. I mean, who am I? And
here's Bella a million dollars a year suddenly writing me.
Now to go back to Ruby, Ruby's finally trying to

(09:05):
tell the truth. He realizes he's trapped now. They used him.
So who does he write letters to? He writes Gordon McClendon,
What happened to it? Has anybody heard from McLendon about it? Nothing?
He says. It's two best friends that he can trust
above anybody else. Is Gordon and Joe Cody. They helped
them in the deal. Who were these two? Cody and

(09:27):
Gordon McClendon. Gordon mclendon's former former office in the war.
He was, oh and I his sister talks about. Oh. Yeah,
Gordon was one of Jack's best friends. And Jack called
him that afternoon, the afternoon being Saturday, at my apartment.
Eva Grant said that, yep, has anybody really checked on her?
Looks like she's an narcotics addict and real hard boiled.
Other than that, she showed up at San Antonio, didn't

(09:49):
she where the president was? Well, that's fuzzy, that's fuzzy. Yeah,
that window was opened in your earlier shot. Now it's
closed and this one's opened a bit. Conversations going. Another
sister of Ruby's works for the Treasury Department really in Washington.
That's interesting. Missus Norman Carroll. Missus Norman Carroll is the

(10:09):
name of Jack Ruby sister who works for the Treasury Department.
Carroll is another name Jack Lawrence has come to think
of it. He's one of these people who has an
extra middle name, and Carroll is one of them, meaning
he could be Carroll. Carroll is used as a gnom
de plume by somebody else too, who uses the name
Vince Carroll. In this case, it doesn't come to me.

(10:29):
Carroll is used by several people in this case, one
of them might be related to the Carrol that works
in the Treasury. Warren Carroll got killed. No, he didn't either.
Warren Carroll is a scriptwriter for Hunt, a former CIA
type Vince Carroll that will come to me Hunt and
all of his people. Carrol was the name used by
Waginov when he came down from Philadelphia. He moved on

(10:51):
Sunset Street right behind the Texas Theater. And he's part
of the operation in some way because he's got to
be US intelligence. He comes down here loaded with guns
and he's living right there in Oak Park. He's the
guy with the whip antenna on his car, the whole
damn thing. Yeah, the radio specialist and his history as
he's been taken by the Germans when they come back

(11:11):
from the Russians and he's grows up as a Nazi
and here he is suddenly bumming around with a big
red convertible. But Carol is the name he used, didn't
sell Andrea do a lot on him, and he reached
any conclusions. I don't think they reached any conclusions for
this reason. At that time there was no other inquiry,
so there was no place to connect their results. But

(11:34):
I would say now that conclusions they reached just connects
with the general intelligence operation that we've come up, don't
you think so, Bill, It's just part of the apparatus.
I think he may have something to do with the
Tippet bit. He was out at that time. Yes, and
the girlfriend he married or brought down here or something
knows about it too. I forgot where her name was.

(11:56):
Speaking of the Tippet death, you ever hear any more
about the guy who wrote Playboy magazine after your interview
and said he'd been at the scene at the Tippet
shooting and had seen two guys shoot Tippet and run
away in opposite directions. Remember that letter to the editor. Ooh,
that sounds like an awesome letter. I'd like to see
that letter. If anybody happens, I want to go digging
through some nineteen sixty seven playboys. No, that's good, But

(12:19):
he said he didn't want to say anything because he
didn't want to get involved. He's living in New York somewhere.
Did you ever get any more? No, he didn't get involved.
He said there were six other people there who saw
the same thing, Frank Wright, Clemens. I wouldn't be surprised.
But the two men running in opposite directions fits Frank
Wright or Clemens. I can't remember. But if one person
saw that, then it probably happened because all the others

(12:41):
could just see one. Honestly, this would collaborate or what
he meant was corroborate. What happened? What do you expect
Alan Wright to tell us tomorrow if we get a
hold of his wife. I couldn't see where he really
knew anything about the case. Bill seems to have extracted
a few things from Alan Wright. I found him kind
of useless, but Bill got a few things. The only

(13:03):
things I come up with that if there's this hired
guy from Mexico City which this group could use, and
he checked into the Stoneley Hotel, in Dallas on the nineteenth,
and he turns out to be we know his name.
He turns out to be Frenchy. But that's about it.
But otherwise I think he's u huh, let me reread that.
The only thing I can come up with if there

(13:23):
was this hired gun from Mexico City which this group
could use, and he checked into the Stoneley Hotel in
Dallas on the nineteenth, then he turns out to be
so we know his name. He turns out to be Frenchy. Okay,
so they're exsuming Frenchy's from Mexico City because of his
darker complexion, But no, he's a fucking Italian vincent called
the grown Junior. Is Italian, not fucking Mexican. And how

(13:45):
do they know that he stayed at this hotel? And
if they know that he stayed there, why don't they
have a name? Well that's about it, but otherwise I
think he's a what about the doorsteps morsel part of it? Oh,
that's too remote to do anything with except Morrison's killed
and Hugh Ward is killed with him under rather odd circumstances.
But what can you expect except to say another part

(14:06):
of the Banister operation is gone. Gee. The mortality rate
in the Banister operation is pretty heavy, unbelievable, heavy and
close together. Fairy and Hugh Ward and Banister? Who else Gatlin?
But Gatlin had a heart attack, yeah, after he fell
six stories and everyone laughs. Can anybody identify a crippled
pilot that got killed? Can any anybody identify a pilot

(14:28):
whose name was Barney? I have two pilots. I can't
get any names on them. Isn't that the guy who
was supposed to have flown the plane and disappeared off
the coast of Corpus CHRISTI may have been. I've checked
with the FAA, the CAAB and everybody until I'm blue
in the face, and there wasn't such plane. Did anybody
check the papers? We haven't been, neither of I. We

(14:49):
don't have the resources. We get good leads and don't
follow them up. I figured that the FAA eventually would
come up with some information, but they won't. I think
the excuse is that they will hide behind if they
actually get enough of this that it fell outside of
their territorial waters, therefore it wasn't in their jurisdiction. Therefore
they don't have any records on it. If somebody could

(15:10):
get to Corpus soon before it gets around too much,
they might find it in the microfilms of the paper.
But I've seen cases like this in Dallas Times Herald,
I believe where they actually microfilms have been taken out
of the library. It just occurred to me that a
plane isn't going to plunge and kill a couple of
people without it being in the papers. Do we really
have any solid evidence that there was such a plane? Though?

(15:32):
I think it unlikely. Personally, it seems to lead that
I put way down on my list. I would consider
it a low priority. Grociers is good in the fact
that his living with Faery and his relationships. Oh, he's
talking about Brochears. Remember this is like a This is
like a transcription, so the person transcribing it didn't get
everything right. Brochers is good in the facts of his

(15:53):
living with Fairy and relationships with individuals. He had sexual
relationships with Thornley, for example. Well, I believe him. That's
why he describes so specifically the body holding the gun
and militant. He says he's positive and it's Carrie. Do
you know who his uncle is? Who his uncle Brochears
Melvin Price, a longtime congressman from East Saint Louis. Oh. Really,

(16:17):
he's a curious person because you find it hard to
believe that a man feels so strong about the truth,
and yet it seems to be a thing with him.
He seems to be genuinely concerned about it. He picked
up things that are rumors or Fairy might have told him,
which it weren't true about the plane, but tells the
individual that he saw. I think it's reliable. Wouldn't you

(16:39):
make a great witness. They've already shot him out. They've
already shot him out of the saddle. But as a witness,
the federal court sent him to an institution. You mean
he's there now? No, But they said it's on his
record now. I don't care. Practically everybody I have is
going to some sort of record of that type. He's
a fairly colorful character. M he can be very credible.

(17:01):
One thing I have to do is spend half the
time building up credibility. Who the hell is going to
be living with Fairy. He's going to be rather odd
character to begin with. That's one thing about it. They
can't just credit the witnesses as easily by sending him
off an institution, because that's going to make it all
the more believable that he would be living with David Ferry.
No problem there. It's going to be interesting to see

(17:26):
what they do with James Earl Ray. He may die
of a mental imbalance. I suppose then you will have
a closed coffin. Won't that be amazing? It's too gruesome
to let people look at that, folks, especially when he
turns purple. They may have a state legislature pass law

(17:47):
where you can't get a look at the autopsy. It
isn't that unbelievable. They just did it in California. These
things go through just like that. At some juncture, we're
going to file a suit against the federal government some
sort of stuff in the archives under the Freedom of
Information Act, to sye if we can shake some of
them loose. I think they are set up for most
of that stuff where they'll say, okay, here it is,
and there won't be much there. The main thing the

(18:08):
head for is the X ray. That's the toughest thing
for them to handle. In other words, I think, for example,
the really highest category of classification has never been mentioned.
It's buried forever in FBI files. It's not buried in
ten feet of ground. Never reached the archives and what
they all? Right? And then it cuts off and it
starts the next side of the tape. So we'll start

(18:29):
on beginning of side number nine. Damn, there's a lot
of reels. Boxley says, Isaac's Ferry is from the New
Orleans area, and the agency is from New Orleans. And
that agency did run a name check on Oswald, by gosh,
they did. Yeah, and they were also regular contributors at
the Citizens Committee. Oh really, Truth or Consequences? Sure that

(18:50):
doesn't mean a thing. Gordon McLendon, if he lived in
New Orleans would have made every meeting, wouldn't he. Jack Ruby, Hell,
I'm one of the foundations that see how he gets
money to help finance me to throw me off the
wrong trail. That wouldn't surprise me at all. The thing
to do to use it, that's all. If they come
up with money, I'll use it. Now. How did Ferry
use the Isaac? He said he was surprised to see

(19:14):
a guy of Isaac's caliber taking up with a nut
like Oswald. I was surprised about that comment because It's
hard to me to think that Fairy would view Oswald
as a nut. Ferry didn't say that the other guy did. Yeah,
well maybe it was. That might be different. You say
the guy had a hearing aid or some or a
hearing device in his ear, either one. He has a
plug in his ear, just like the police officer in

(19:35):
that picture. Did you see my blow up? I think
that blow up is terrific. That's something Dallas was not
using at the time, man to man communications. They'll catch
on to that about nineteen ninety. What what did he say?
He said, there's something Dallas is not using at the time,
man to man communications. They'll catch on to that about
nineteen ninety. Oh, that's funny. He's just mocking fucking Dallas

(19:58):
Police department box. He says. That's direct control of Daily Plaza.
That's all it could be. Does anybody have any idea
who the three bones were? But we don't know who
the police officer is doing? Hartness is the guy in
the back? Yeah? But who is this guy? Boy? If
we knew who he was, we'd have it. You can
almost see the name on his badge. It would be
a phony anyway, Probably the name probably when he's rented. Probably,

(20:20):
it says unidentified he's got loafers. Loafers, he sure has.
How's that possible? Did you see this? I've never seen
a police officer with loafers in my life. Okay, So
what he's talking about is talking about the picture of
the three tramps where there's like a third there's like
an officer in front, it's like bass or wise, and
then there's another unidentified officer who's far in the back,
but his uniform is super fucking baggy, like it's not

(20:40):
a proper fitting uniform whatsoever. And they're saying the guy's
wearing loafers, which you don't wear as a cop. You
gotta wear boots. So, yeah, there was a fake cop
in that picture. It's another mystery I've never been able
to figure out. He ain't no police officer. What's this
thing in his ear? I see something in it, but
I can't quite make out the form. Here's the shadow
he's casting and the sun comes out here, got a

(21:03):
wire going down under his collar. Has anyone who'd been
able to see these three bums? No, they only speak
of one bum, and they cloud it by jumping on
the group. Investigator. You see everything. You encounter one bum
Lonnie or whatever his name is, if you see it,
it's a way of getting out of mentioning these two. No,
David Balin is talking, David Bellen is talking to police

(21:23):
officer Harkness, and Harkness said there there were three of
them bums though. Could one of them be Bradley or not? Yeah,
I'd swear that's Bradley. This is a beauty. I think
two of them anyway, are the guns of operation. Yeah, no,
he got it wrong. Maybe one of them Danny Green,
but they didn't identify Danny Green. This looks like one
of those paramilitary types, you know, the kid who had

(21:44):
been in the Special Services or something like that. Fenzerwald
says something and it's redacted. Weird box. He says, the
shooters were taken out under police escort. Here's the guy
getting them to the jail and from the jail, and
they sent them to a police car out back door
or tippets say they are gone. Central Intelligence had some

(22:05):
fantastic data in this summary of theirs and where we've
got to keep that in mind. I almost let it go,
but after I called to the guy who assembled it.
But what they do to this. In other words, they
rely on a lot of US money, and some of
their sources of their information is from the CIA itself.
The data about the shooting they indicated to us came
from the Central Intelligence Agency another part of it, and

(22:27):
who else would know better? When you think about it,
it was shop talk the details how it was done,
I'm inclined to give a lot of credence. In other words,
through one of their guys they planted inside No, no, no,
They just told how it was done off the record.
One of the guys who wasn't involved but knew how
the agency had done it, explained how it was done
off the record to French intelligence, and French intelligence reported

(22:50):
it and it was recently put in book form put together.
I think as a result, I think to gall caused
it to happen. But they don't explain it to you
that way. They just explain it as a publisher and
writer gathering the evidence so forth. But when you read it,
you see this as an intelligence analysis, don't you think? So? Yeah,
it's got to be. I've read too many case histories
back in Washington that read just exactly like that. This

(23:13):
is harkness here. Then will he doesn't know much about
that yet. We've got three officers involved here. Do you
know him? Do you know how to meet him? No?
I didn't get to meet him. Moose says, he's a
real creek. He's all right, he's a nice guy. But
you can see this information really doesn't come from him.
I think that's what happened, Jim. You see most we

(23:34):
were sort of violated their trust in a way with
that New York Times story. I don't think that bothered
them at all. But I think they send us this
freak who sells it as a book operation because they
don't want to be tied to it. Yeah, but when
you read the thing, you have real data about the
police operations, and this is escorted out of the rationale

(23:54):
by Dallas police. There's a real question whether those are
regular Dallas police though, this with the loafers can't be.
I never saw a policeman wear them. Have you got
any doubt in your mind that Oswald went to Russia
as an American agent. We've had some doubt about it,
and we've spent a lot of time digging into that, Bud.
I'm kind of tired to give details. For one thing,
there is a real conflict in height, the Oswald who

(24:17):
came back on the ships about five six and the
Oswald who applied for a passports five to eleven. In
other words, is a real variation photographed that. How about
the guy that died in Dallas, Well that's the tall Oswald?
What all right? What are they gonna say here? How
about the guy that died in Dallas? Well that's the
tall Oswald. No, no, it's not, it's the short Oswald.

(24:40):
I wonder if there may not be an explanation for
his showing up trying to buy trucks for Cuba in
nineteen sixty one. He didn't. That was Kerry Thornley. We've
considered the possibility that they might have a lookalike situation
down there. Yeah, do you think duh? For example, you
can go to the picture of Oswald and Russia standing
beside Marina. She's very petite. Well, she's almost as short
as he is. He's almost as short as she is.
You remember those bills. Well, yeah, standing on the bridge,

(25:02):
he's almost as short as she is. And Lee Oswald
was at least five to ten. So there's a mystery there.
There's a mystery why she calls him. What's his name? Aleck,
as if Alec was the previous guy, and she's forced
to live with him because she certainly has no feeling
for him. I think we've got two Oswald's. We've got
the one that married her in Russia. I love it
when outside, outside sources other than Armstrong realized as multiple Oswald's.

(25:27):
Love it. I think we've got two Oswald's. We've got
one that lived, that married her in Russia, that seemed
to have feelings for her. Remember that first thing that
happened when she got to Dallas is that she started
having marrow problems. Her husband beat her. She didn't like him.
She started shifting from house to house, and she was
happy enough though when she got back with Lee Harvey.

(25:47):
I think there's a strong possibility of two Oswald's, both
in Russia and later. No, in Russia, there was one.
In Russia, there was one, but not in the Marines.
I'm inclined to doubt that it was a marine. It
was the Marines. You got that one wrong. He has
handwriting problems. For example, without being an expert, you can
see that the letters supposedly written by Lee Oswald and Russia,

(26:08):
the handwriting is quite different than Lee Oswald, which is
like chicken scratch. Wait a minute, you're all losing me
somewhere here. Now we've dug into that for many months.
We're just getting back on that trail. There's something you
can work a lifetime on and not really make much progress.
Spend two minutes and just explain it to me. Boxley says,
here's the explanation. If you read the notes that Oswald's

(26:29):
supposed to have brought out of Russia, from which he
was going to write a book, you'll find a beautiful
example of an intelligence agent's casing report on the electronic
factory in Minsk. Oswald did not write that, yet, he's
supposed to have written it. Now. The report would have
many uses to intelligence, primarily being the to infiltrate another
agent into that plant. He'd be familiar with it now.

(26:52):
Nowhere else in his writings does Oswald get as specific
as he does in the operations of the electronics plant
in Minsk. It's totally different from all of his other writings.
He can't spell cat if he's writing a note to somebody,
but the casing report on the factory is very grammatically correct.
Guys in the research chat. If somebody could dig up
this Oswald's electronic report of the factory, I really appreciate it.

(27:15):
But tell me who you think went to Russia? The
ex marine I don't think, So who do you think went?
I think the CIA agent went to Russia using Oswald's name.
And what happened to the regular Oswald during this time?
I got a hunch that he went to Florida or
possibly Cuba, New Orleans. I think he was CIA man,
and I think that could account for his being seen

(27:37):
all over Miami. You know, we got all these reports
at the time about his being seen down there. Okay,
let me clarify this because there's no evidence for this
at all. But who was it that was an Oswald
look alike who was working at the book depository as
Oswald who was living in Miami. William Seymour duh right,
his police work one on one, ladies and gentlemen. So

(28:01):
what you think the guy who was killed in Dallas
did not go to Russia? I think so, I'm understanding
you correctly. Yeah, this is theory, photographic evidence, you know,
I know, but everything keeps popping up, so I'm trying
to keep straight in my mind. What your theory is
it's a possibility, I think you have to say, but
a real possibility. There is a real question about the

(28:21):
photographs about Oswald and Russia is definitely small. There's no
getting away from that. Shorter in stock here. Priscilla Johnson,
God damn it did she say he was small? Priscilla Johnson,
despite the fact I'm very good friends of her brothers,
will not even give me the courtesy of spending an
evening in chatting. That's because she knew it wasn't the
real Oswald over there she saw him. That's a good point. Also,

(28:44):
she's writing Marina's memoirs, and by god, Marina must have
told her something. There's a case that Bill says, no
action means something. I'll tell you something I can crack.
Priscilla Johnson, What did you have in mind? I have
in mind facing her with the fact that if she
does not talk with me and tell me about this,
and she's going to be pretty near Danna topo of
being exposed as a bomb, it may be a great approach.
She's probably CIA agent, because up is all over the place.

(29:08):
I'm quite sure she is. But what I'm saying is,
I think I've got a way of forcing her to talk,
Garrison says, But sheer reaction may be some value, because
as soon as you get a chance look at our
volumes tomorrow or Monday, and look at the pictures of Alec.
If you will, with Marina in Russia on the bridge,
and if this man is an inch over five foot six,
I'll stand on my head. She's about five foot two

(29:29):
and he's small. But Oswald and the Marines in applying
for passport is tall. And there's something wrong. That's why
Priscilla Johnson won't talk with me, and why Harper's won't
publish that book. The minute Harper's publishes that book that's
got any numb of truth in it all, they'll blow

(29:49):
this thing wide open. You realize that if this case,
this could have been the rationale used to pin down
the Chief Justice and all the people. This is pretty significant.
What we just hit on now be the thing that
Johnson could use when he calls in the Chief Justice. Look,
I'm gonna have to tell you something. This could be
the rationale. The area of exposure involving national security. There
are two there's an operation inside of Russia, and so

(30:12):
reveal it, and life is danger and so forth. Boxley says,
Marina's uncle is actually a CIA penetration into kg Beach Boy,
run through that one. You know, I'm a skeptic when
it comes to a we're going on possibilities. Now, I
understand that. But if you go through the possibilities, all right,
her uncle is in military intelligence KGB and Russia is

(30:32):
actually a CIA double agent. He stepped right into it.
This is how we can get Marina out of Russia.
Oswald couldn't have gotten her out of Russia. They are
not going, Garrison says. Remember she's swinging from the beginning.
As soon as she hits the States. She's with Carrie
Thornley before Oswald is even dead. It's not just afterwards.
She's going to the store with Thornley and more than Oswald. Ah,

(30:55):
there we go the confirmation, additional confirmation of the relationship
between Thornley and Marina. They had her under her thumb
ever since the assassination with Joe Griscapi, who was Joe
Poole's campaign manager in Dallas. He puts some money for
Porter to get her to get his liquor store. He
put up the money for her to buy a home
he's ridden hurt On. Who is he? Porter? Is her

(31:17):
new husband? No? But who's this other man? Grissop he's
a two bet, well not a two but he's a
six bet politician a hood in Dallas. How do you
spell his name? Boxley? Says Grifazi griz Affi. He owns
the liquor store where Marina's husband works. He owns it
and her husband is supposed to own it. Do we

(31:37):
know where in Canada? Porter flies? Yeah, he's flying to Calgary.
He would make an overnight flight. Alberta's come up before
it's warm and Tulsa. That's Morton's story. The password is
warm and Tulsa Oil employed by American Oil Company in Calgary.
If you guys sit around here long enough tonight, you

(31:59):
may solve this damn thing. We felt. This guy couldn't
take everything he said is truth, but you couldn't throw
away everything. Now, sometimes you forget and you throw the
whole thing out. I think Priscilla Johnson McMillan may be
our key to this thing. That's right, but she could
blow the whole duke. But I think we can also
blow her as the world's biggest prostitute for sitting on

(32:21):
what she's got, she wouldn't have any conscience. I know.
She can also just be absolutely ruined for the rest
of her life. I mean, nobody would ever believe a
damn word she ever said. From now on, she could
be pictured as the real bum. She worked for Jack Kennedy,
She interviewed Lee Harvey or a Lee Harvey when he
was there, and she's writing Marina's memoirs. Now, if Jack
Kennedy was murdered by a whole bunch of people and

(32:42):
she's the one who's sitting on the truth, you may
have a good point. There's got to be an approach
to one of them. And this sounds good. And her
husband's writing a book on James Earl Ray, which just
kills me. Bradford Dewey Boxley says, if you could crack
just one kink in this whole Ciace story, Garrison says,
the next thing is about this husband wife thing that

(33:04):
they can use the same evidence. The pictures deserve examination.
But also when we are there at the office, I'll
show you the difference in handwriting. And there's another thing too,
there is very there's some letters which come to mind
that I have spent a lot of time over written
by Marina in Dallas speaking about Alec, and one of
the letters actually has a reference to Lee in other words,

(33:27):
as if they are two different people, and also mentions
Alex separately positively, I remember showing you that. And during
the testimony she says that she calls Lee Alec. But
there is one case which she refers to Lee and
Alex separately. That's where ooh, ooh, that's interesting. That's where
they got his eight ball Hidell. Well, like Miguel says,

(33:48):
he uses Alex Hidell in Mexico, So we had to
start with Alex something. Alec was the name of the
other guy in Russia or when they put her with
Lee Harvey back there. Well, then the second Oswald, pulling
all these tableaux and running to Mexico and back and forth,
is the real Alec. That's the guy she married in Russia.

(34:09):
It sounds crazy they were both back here in sixty
two and sixty three. Well, that accounts for your second Oswald.
They must be lookalike, so they wouldn't have tried to
tried it in the first place. The grocery store, the
driving range refers to she has American friends in Moscow,
she tells Marilyn Morette out here redacted, that her American

(34:29):
friends got her lucky strike cigarettes in Russia. Who were
her American friends? And previous to this, he couldn't speak
English at all? And then just out of the blue,
this is the biggest giveaway. She couldn't speak three words
of English in a row. Visiting over here at the
Morettes down here in summer of sixty three. Me like me,
No like was the extent of her vocabulary. But out

(34:50):
here at the lake in late summer she explained with
perfect grammar that I used to smoke in Russia, but
Lee doesn't like for me to smoke here. As a
matter of fact, some of my American friends in Russia
used to get me lucky strikes. Where does that come from?
The evidence? In evidence, Marilyn says that in her testimony
to Leebler, she says it later just recently to Mark
Lane to back it up. Her brother, John murratt Is,

(35:13):
in his Testimony and Importance, says that one thing striking
thing was Marina on television after the assassination. He was
completely floorid how well she had mastered the English language
in the three months since she had left down there.
Let me ask a question. If Priscilla Johnson knows about
the two Oswalds, doesn't Leebler. I think Leebler is probably
one of the key people in this thing. No, but
Leebler is close to cracking than anybody else right now.

(35:35):
I don't know if he is or not. I think
so Leebler has gotten a bum deal out of this
whole thing. What do you mean that he could have
been used to crack her or that he's trying to
crack it on his own. No, he could be used
to crack it. Blackmail hit him the same way as
you could Priscilla. Priscilla saying, by god, we know that
you know there were two Oswals, and yet you still

(35:57):
for this. If you want to save your skin, you'd
be a hero and turn around give us the true
statement of it. He's been so active through the spokesman
for the Warring Commission. Not lately he hasn't. Really, he
was going strong and then just cut it out. Maybe
that's when he had Harold to work on. You think
that he actually knew that there were two guys. If

(36:17):
Priscilla knew, it seems to me that he would know too.
Priscilla might not know it. Priscilla might have put it
together the changes in height. Why then, which she would
she know that there were a different Oswald who is
put on the boat. If Priscilla interviewed a guy in
Moscow who was somewhere under five foot five and then
the guy gets shot in Dallas's five foot ten. Actually

(36:38):
he's five foot nine in Dallas, not five foot ten.
If she's any sort of goddamn reporter at all, Plus
the fact that she spent two years with Marina Oswald.
In that two years, Marina must have told her. Why
aren't they publishing Marina's memoirs? I think for the very
reason that if they publish it, it blows the whole
case open. Why does Harper's care? Well, my god, if
the US government can pressure the Chief Justice of the US,

(37:00):
they can get Willie Morris. Harper's is easy to handle.
I'll tell you something else that raises some questions in
this regard Bud that you might want to think about.
They are unable to satisfactorily handle the trip to Mexico.
There's something wrong. He came back by automobile. Well, the
going down is a problem too. Remember the going down.
There's no real data now when they try to get

(37:20):
the data. And this questioning of one of the Mexican custodians,
he reams of data of the border crossings, he doesn't
have any left and says what happened to it? And
he said, well, two American investigators came by. I think
they had a transit list of who was on the
bus or something, and they asked for a copy. And
when I gave them the second copy, they said they
look for the first copy, and then they said they

(37:41):
would rather have that, and they ended up taking both
of them. In other words, there was not any data
of any kind left. There's something wrong with the trip
to Mexico. There are no pictures. Why aren't there penny
pictures in Mexico? There's nothing, no explanation of the activity
in Mexico. Does he spend five days sightseeing? He doesn't
go sightseeing. He's going to bullfights. They are every day

(38:01):
now in Mexico instead of just on Sunday. There was
something wrong with the whole Mexican trip. I'll tell you
something you probably don't know about the Mexican trip. And
this I got from your friend Lipton out in California.
I believe, but I'm not sure. A document that showed
that a crop photo was taken on October fourth. Paul
Hoak out there was it a joke. This is a
sworn aff of David from Richard Helm's on October fourth,

(38:22):
according to the Warren Report, Lee Harvey was back in Texas.
I knew the guy. They had the date wrong for sure,
but I thought it was October third. So October third
is when Oswald's supposed to have stayed at the YMCA
in Dallas. But the third through the fifth is also
when Carrie Thornley is seen with Marina gallivanting through Alice, Texas.

(38:43):
The sworn statement by Helms said October fourth. But in
any event, there's something funny about it. Garrison said, I
don't think they had finished part of the structure. It's
like building part of a house ahead of the other part.
It's too complicated to keep it all straight. The only
reason they could not have released the photo in Mexico
is that it was not Oswald that they took the
picture of. They weren't worried about who they took it with.

(39:05):
But the fact that Garrison said that's a good point.
The trip itself is an embarrassment, but the supreme point
of embarrassment is the so called picture of Oswald. Why
can't they produce the picture of Oswald? You would think
the one thing they could produce would be a picture
of Oswald in Mexico, they had pictures from everywhere else.
Boxy said, they're happy to associate. They are all over

(39:25):
the place. So why can't you see one picture when
it was just a matter of record that it was taken,
same reason you can't see Ray. Yeah, there's something wrong
with the whole Mexican trip. Then you have these people
like Epstein missing the point, saying, well, the picture was
not taken at the Cuban embassy. It was taken at
the Russian embassy. I don't care where it was taken.
Where's the picture of Oswald? It was not of Oswald?

(39:47):
It is unbelievable. This is the typical criticism of the critic,
the point to where is the picture of Oswald? They
had it, it's in their custody. Where is it? He
apparently came back from Mexico with a man named Bennett
from Miami, and nobody out Bennett yet. Okay, I don't
know anything about this Bennett person at all, or where
this information is coming from. You see, this is why
I'm convinced ninety percent of Garrison's files, if not more,

(40:08):
are gone. We have like scant leftovers. We don't have
the bulk of his files. Fuck, he arrested and interviewed
Emilio Santana for five fucking days straight. Interrogated for five
days straight. There is no record of that interview. He

(40:29):
didn't come up on the bus. No, he did not
come up on the bus. There used to be a
Bennett in the oil business in Dallas. Bennett is an
accountant who lives in Miami. At least that what it says.
He had been in Mexico for some time and his
exit visa or papers were outdated by six weeks. In
other words, you know, they ask how long you will
be and say two weeks, and he was six weeks overdue,

(40:51):
and he'd got in a big argument with the Mexican authorities.
And I think he was the one that brought Lee
Harvey back with him. There's absolutely no evidence that Lee
Harvey came back by bus. He's not on the manifest anywhere.
He's not cleared by the customs anywhere. If you can
ever read away through volumes twenty four and twenty six,
they're all pretty grim. He did not come back by bus.

(41:11):
They're all messed up. They have a hell of a
time with that, they really do. But Bennett is a
serious character. Nobody knows what Bennett was doing there. What
was his first name, John Bennett. He lives at one
two five zero Haitian Drive, Miami, Florida. According to the
Mexican authorities, Lee Harvey Oswald left Mexico traveling by auto
with his ultimate destination New Orleans. Now this is in

(41:33):
volume twenty four, page six thirteen. Um, all right, so remember,
let me screenshot this. I'm gonna have to pull this
when I get done here, Volume twenty four, page six thirteen,
saying that Oswald drove back in a car. The only

(41:55):
guy who shows up, and everybody who's left that day
by auto, it looks like he might be the one.
Is this guy who was stopped by the authorities because
he'd been there six weeks too long and couldn't explain.
And they came back, as I remember, by way of
Warez rather than El Paso. They're just across the river
from each other. He came back the coast rather than Laredo.
The coast route is Laredo. Yeah, which, by the way,

(42:16):
the bus came back due north of Monterey. Right, I'm wrong.
El Paso is over even further. Ol Paso has nothing
to do with it. I'm sorry. Brownsville and I've forgotten
what the hell the little town is though Bennett apparently
exited there with his automobile Meta Morris, Meta Morris, and
I believe that Lee Harvey was with him, because there's
no indication anywhere that he came back by bus. Well,

(42:37):
is there any indication that he was with Bennett. No,
The only indication was that he was traveling by automobile
when he exited. And they have a whole long list
of people who exited that day. You mean, if he
did go to Mexico, but they did have too much difficulty.
Somebody went to Mexico as Oswald, somebody had to come back.
It's like wrestling with a serpent. The Mexican trip is

(42:57):
entirely too complicated and complex. It shouldn't be this much
of a problem. Before I forget about it, it pops
into my mind that I just brought up that, because
that's not unrelated to the problem of Russia too. There's
some things wrong there. This is a structure which doesn't
ring true in places. But one interesting thing in the

(43:17):
police reports, apparently prepared for the DA's office, is we
seem to have gotten a copy used by the DA's
office because it got occasional notes in it. Did you
ever notice that? And on the page on whose main
page they put Marina right away and she ended up
marrying for a while. No, the first guy she was
living with Martin, Jim Martin. They've got down on the
police report and Jim Martin saying that Marina lived at

(43:38):
the house with him, And down at the bottom of
the page and handwriting it's got a private line to
the White House, and it's got his number for any
calls from the White House. It's a Dallas number. Every
now and then. It has some comment written apparently in
preparation for the case. And that's down there. That's in
the Texas case. Yeah, I found it in there. Speaking
of pieces of information which you can't do much with,

(44:00):
Jim Martin had a private line with the White House.
I think that there's a situation there in which for
a few weeks after the assassination there was a great
deal of tension about Marina and the control factor. Small wonder.
That doesn't mean that Johnson might call, but I think
there was somebody there who would call regular to see
somebody would have answered the phone. You can imagine there

(44:21):
are control problems in the weeks to follow. That gives
the White House at least indirectly control over her ever
since the assassination. Because Grizafi was Joe Poole's boy and
Joe Poole was Lyndon's boy, there was no two ways
about it. Well, Marina Murrie that made out rather well.
She's done very well, There's no question about that. Also,
Missus Tippett made out rather well. Do you know where

(44:41):
the seven hundred and eighty thousand dollars came from? They
took care of the widows, but yeah, where did the
money come from? From? Contributions? They tell you in the
testimony of Marina's contribution. They're going through, Now here's a
contribution for twenty five thousand, and a member of the
Warrant Comission says, where did that money come from? And
an answer was a that's all. And they went on

(45:02):
to the next question. There's this guy on the bus.
You know albert Osmer when Jag Boeing was listed as
entering Mexico on one hundred and eighty day tourist permit
issued at the time of crossing. He got his tourist
permit all of a sudden, right. He got his initial
papers in Montreal seventy two hours before getting back to
Ray again seventy two hours before he crossed the border.
He got his personal papers in Montreal. You mean a

(45:24):
vaccination permit. You may be wrong about that. Now. The
descriptive data furnished by Boeing was sketchy, mode of travel
not indicated, final destination given as DF. Described as male
American citizen, sixty years of age, married office worker, born Houston, Texas.
Residence Houston, Texas, with no street address indicated, presented birth
certificate as proof of citizenship. As it later turns out,

(45:47):
he was a native of Great Britain and a Canadian citizen.
Now here's a guy. He takes out one hundred and
eighty day tourist permit, yet he only stays a few days. Bill.
I think the most significant thing of all, and if
I'm not mistaken about this, is that he left from
Montreal seventy two hours before it just clicked. I'd forgotten
about this for months. We ought to put down a
list of the ways that Montreal comes into this thing

(46:08):
again and again. Where Bloomfield is. That's where Bloomfield is.
You see how close these guys came to getting it all. Well, guys,
that's going to do it for me. Today, I'm going
to wrap things up and we will be back on well,
let me see, I'm going to see Fish the next
couple of days, so it's probably gonna be back on Monday.

(46:31):
And that's gonna do it for me. Guys, Thank you.
We'll see you then.

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