Lee Harvey Oswald - North Dakota and Beyond - Cory Hughes Bloody History

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning, everybody. Corey hues Bloody History. So I took
all of last week off. It's kind of needed a break,
and plus I'm working heavily on and I've been working
heavily on this cryptocurrency project for the last year or so,
which is launching on July first. We're launching our own

(00:23):
what's called Independent Media Token. You can check it out
at IMT dot network. But this has been absorbing a
lot of my time lately. Hopefully as we get closer
towards the end of the month, things will settle down
a bit and I'll have some more regular shows. But I,
as usual, stretch myself way too thin. I take on

(00:46):
like six projects at fucking once. My book. Let me
give you an update on the book. So I'm two
hundred and twenty five pages in. I took a week
off of that, or two weeks off of that. Also,
I didn't realize until I took this last week off
of how absolutely intensely I had been working. And that's
not sustainable. It's not sustainable at all. I haven't really

(01:09):
taken a break in years, since I started this shit,
like ten years ago. So today we're going to take
a break from the Marguerite Oswald Testimony, it's getting a
little dry for my tastes. We'll get back to it
one hundred percent, and we'll get back to the Garrison
Sprague Conference, which we're only about halfway through with. But

(01:31):
that's the best part about this show. It's not time dated,
you know, so you can kind of pick up and
leave off wherever you want, which I think is pretty nice.
But today, considering that I'm am working on the book,
the Harvey and Lee book. It's called Lee Rvy Oswald
and Black and White. I was shooting for July, but
it's probably gonna be later in the year. I really

(01:52):
I rushed through two hundred and twenty five pages in
about six weeks, which is fucking unbelievable. Like I can't
think of any anybody else who could knock out that
kind of work in that shorter period of time. But
it is going to end up being about four hundred
pages at least, because I still have to get to

(02:14):
all the marine stuff. Where I'm at is I'm in
that transitionary period when he goes back to Fort Worth
around fifty six in July of fifty six. I'm still
trying to figure out how to wrap up all the
New Orleans duplicity, because that year of fifty four or
fifty five and the beginning of fifty six in New

(02:34):
Orleans is peak obfuscation. It is peak Oswald being in
two places at once. So I did figure one thing
out about Oswald and why Armstrong concluded something that he
did so Armstrong didn't really ever, no matter how much

(02:54):
time he spent on it. I think he just drove
himself crazy. He never actually figured out a lot of
the chronology stuff. And if he would actually have spent
more time on the Monig High School junior high school stuff,
what he would have found was that during that time
period that Lee and his mother are missing up until

(03:15):
from January to May of fifty four, where we don't
know where they are. We have Lee Oswald and his
mother starting to work at the Dolly Shoe Company in February.
Oswald will work there for ten weeks. His mother will
work there, I believe through October of fifty four. For
some reason, John Armstrong believed that that was Harvey Oswald

(03:36):
and his mother working for the Dolly Shoe Company. And
I don't know why he concluded that. I don't understand
his logic here, because what you have is I'm sorry
if I said fifty four, I meant fifty five. So

(03:56):
what you have is Oswald in fifty five February starts
to work Good Dolly Shoe Company. But where is Oswald
in February of fifty five. We've got a half a
dozen witnesses who put him at Monig Junior High School
in Fort Worth, Texas. Okay, I have I have the
photograph of Oswald in that graduating class that people said

(04:18):
was Oswald. You can't really tell it's him. All you
can tell is all you can see is a hairline. Really,
because it's so distant. It'll be in the book. But
to me, the overwhelming evidence that Oswald was in Fort
Worth and he was at Monig is from a statement
from a guy named Tommy Brown, and Tommy Brown describes
where Oswald lived, and the house that he describes is

(04:39):
the house that Robert Oswald will live at on Davenport.
And the problem that we have is that Tommy Brown
knew Oswald up until around June of fifty five, and
he knew him at the Davenport address. Robert Oswald didn't
get out of the Marines until July of fifty five,
and he didn't buy the Davenport address until fifty seven.
So we've got once again Oswald living in a place

(05:00):
before he's supposed to be there, right, so or he's
never supposed to be there really technically at Davenport. But
what John Armstrong concluded was that it was Harvey working
at Dolly Shoe and that it was Lea Oswald going
to Beauregard. And he ends up nixing his own information
on the moaning stuff because he didn't incorporate Tommy Brown's statement,

(05:24):
which he should have. And see, that's one of the
things I've emphasized so many times is that when a
person a witness, provides information and they don't understand the
significance of that information yet they provided anyway, then you
can guarantee that person's telling the truth. And that is
the case with Tommy Brown. Tommy Brown and his putting

(05:46):
Oswald at the Davenport address, that is wild stuff, man,
that is really wild. And here's where he even gets wilder.
So I look into the house and I pulled the
records on the guy who owned it prior to Robert Oswald,
the person who was supposed to be the owner of
the place in fifty five, when Harvey Oswald and his
mother would have lived there. His name is Joseph Summerfield. Well,

(06:09):
the first thing that you find out about Joseph Summerfield,
because it's all over his gravestone, his obituary, all this stuff.
He was a lifelong member of the Freemasons. And normally
I don't put too much stock into this stuff. The
Freemason's job is like obfuscation and dirty tricks, right, so
it should be right up this alley. But I just
never really considered the possibility. But he was going back

(06:32):
to the age of twenty one. He was a lifelong
member of the Scottish Right. He was inducted into the
Scottish Right while he was halfway through his stint in
the navy. Okay, who else was a member of the
Scottish Right? Guy Banister. Guy Banister was in the navy
and he was naval intelligence. And then I see that
the former owner of the Davenport address, this Joseph Summerfield,

(06:56):
is a member of the Scottish Right, probably naval intelligence.
And when he got out of the Navy, he went
and worked for some company for thirty five years, that
was a defense contractor. Right, So this guy just reeks
of intelligence operations. And that was the previous owner of
the Davenport address. So there's a lot of stuff going

(07:17):
on there that tells me that the information that puts
Oswald that morning you can take to the bank. I'm
pretty confident that Harvey Oswald and his mother were in
Fort Worth at that time. Now another thing, another piece
of evidence, which is weird. I can't figure this one
out either. Harvey Oswald when he was in Russia, he
wrote out kind of a handwritten sort of brief biographical sketch.

(07:41):
And in his brief biographical sketch, he wrote, Well, he
has a couple things in there that he wrote that
were wrong. Like he wrote that he got his ged
while he was at Biloxi, Mississippi. But that's false. We
know he got his ged like almost two years later
in San Ana, Californa. Yeah, right, so that's in his
handwritten biography and that's wrong or is it wrong? We

(08:04):
don't know. And then you have another thing that he
wrote in there, and then he wrote that from fifty
four to fifty six he was in Fort Worth where
he attended high school or attended junior high school. Excuse me.
Oswald's never supposed to have been in Fort Worth until
July fifty six, but Harvey Oswald wrote on his biographical
sketch that he was in Fort Worth from fifty four

(08:24):
to fifty six. Doesn't mention New Orleans after he left
New York, which is weird because we can definitely put
Harvey in New Orleans at Boreguard during that first couple
months of nineteen fifty four when he interacts with Meyra
drus LaRue, right, So lot of crazy stuff going on there.
And so in the book, I'm just I'm in that
period where I have to wrap up New Orleans and

(08:45):
move over to the Collinwood address in fifty six, and
it's I keep running into these like mental hiccups, which
is causing me to go back and change stuff. So yeah,
this period of fifty four to fifty six in New
Orleans is unbelievably important in the Harvey and Lee scheme.
So that's where the book's at today. What I want

(09:07):
to do is we're gonna cover this document I found.
It's I don't know what book this is from, but
it says chapter twenty eight is the heading Lee Harvey Oswald,
North Dakota and Beyond by John Delane Williams and Gary Severinson. Now,
like I said, I know this Harvey and Lee stuff
inside and out, and I know what books have been

(09:28):
written on the dual Oswald. This has been about half
a dozen of them. I don't know what this comes from,
and because it doesn't come from any book that I
am aware of, so I don't know if we'll get
through all this today. It's about twenty pages. We may
get through it today, maybe not. Maybe We'll just pick
up on this tomorrow and I'll go over some more
documents or something. But we're gonna see if we can't
knock this out. Because Oswald in North Dakota is really fascinating,

(09:52):
because what I've put together is that he's in New
York and he's going to the youth house and Marguerite
gets a lawyer named Edgar Biddle or Biggle or something
along those lines, and he says, look, they want to
put him in jail. You need to get him the
hell out of Dodge. And so that's what I think happened.
I think very shortly after Robert Oswald comes in July

(10:16):
of nineteen fifty three and photographs Harvey Oswald at the
Bronx Zoo. That Harvey and his mother will dip to Stanley,
North Dakota, where they will basically hide out there until
January fifty four when Oswald shows up at when Harvey
Oswald shows up at Boorgard where he meets Meyra drus LaRue. Right,
So this period here is more evidence of the Harvey

(10:40):
and League scheme, because we have concrete records of Oswald
at PS forty four in New York. Right, so let
me begin. Lee Harvey Oswald North Dakota and beyond North
Dakota would become part of the JFK assassination story subsequent
to a letter sent by a Missus al McCole to
President Johnson. That letter follows the original was in Missus

(11:00):
Cole's handwriting in parentheses. December eleventh, sixty three. President Lyndon Johnson,
Dear Sir, I don't know how to write you, and
I don't know if I should or shouldn't. My son
knew Lee Harvey Oswald when he was at Stanley, North Dakota.
I do not recall what year, but it was before
Lee Harvey Oswald enlisted in the Marines. The boy read
communist books. Then he told my son he had a

(11:22):
calling to kill a president. My son told me he
asked him how he would know which one, Lee Harvey
Oswald's that he didn't know, but the time and place
would be laid before him. There are others at Stanley
who knew Oswald. If you would check, I believe what
I have wrote. Will check out another woman who knew Oswald,
and his mother was Missus Francis Jealous said she had

(11:45):
the Stanley cafe. She's Missus Harry Murbach, now her son.
I believe knew Lee Harvey Oswald better than mine did. Francis,
and I thought Oswald a bragging boy. Now we know different.
We told our sons to have nothing to do with them.
I'm sorry I don't remember the year. This letter is
wrote to you in hopes of helping. If it does

(12:06):
is all I want is a thank you. Missus al McCole,
you Arizona. The response to the letter, which was sent
to the FBI on December nineteenth, nineteen sixty three, was immediate.
On December twentieth, Missus Cole was interviewed in her home
in Arizona, and a day later, her son, William Timmer,
was first interviewed in Spokane, Washington. Also, the FBI began
to interview several persons in Stanley and nearby towns. The

(12:31):
FBI interview of William Timmer William Henry Timmer was interviewed
by FBI Special Agent Donald Head. The interview transpired over
two days, December twenty first and twenty second, nineteen sixty three.
During the summer of nineteen fifty three, a person Tim
or knew as Harve or Harvey Oswald. This is the
first known usage of Harvey Oswald. Actually, it's not the
first known usage of Harvey Oswald. Sorry, buddy, you got

(12:53):
that wrong. The first known usage of Harvey Oswald was
in fifty one on the Consolidated Census list. Oswald appeared
to be older than timmorer. Oh, this is wrong. It's
says Oswald was born ten, nineteen thirty nine. That's false.
He was born ten eighteen thirty nine. Timmer was born five,
fourteen forty one. Oswald was observed riding a bike with

(13:13):
no chain guard, and he kept getting his pant leg
caught in the chain. Oswald wore shabby clothes. Timmer met
with Oswald several times, perhaps half a dozen. Oswald showed
Timmer a communist pamphlet written by someone named Marx. Timer
recalled Oswald as having been in a couple of fights.
Oswald mentioned being a member of a gang in New
York City. Timmer invited Oswald to his grandmother's property, where

(13:35):
Timer and his mother were staying in a trailer, to
see Timer's pet rabbits. Timer wanted to introduce Oswald to
his mother, but when Oswald saw her, he rode off
on his bike. At another meeting, Oswald told Timmer someday,
I'm going to kill the president, or words to that effect.
Tim More indicated that he'd been ill recently, and at
the time of the assassination he was in a motel
room without a TV. Tim Er heard that Lee Harvey

(13:56):
Oswald had killed the president, but that name didn't mean
anything to him. Timer's mother, al mc cole sent a
letter to Timmer with two pictures of Oswald, one where
Oswald was being led by a policeman in jail and
one when Oswald was shot. Timmer wrote to his mother
in an answer to her letter, that Oswald was the
same boy he saw in Stanley. Tim er wasn't quite
sure who was with him when he saw Oswald, but

(14:17):
he did give the agent some names of his acquaintances
at the time. Other FBI interviews associated with Stanley, missus
al mccle confirmed that she wrote the letter and had
said that she had only seen Oswald once briefly. Mary Wortz,
the mother of al mc coole and the grandmother of
William Henry Timmer, said that she didn't know any of

(14:38):
her grandson's acquaintances. She was eighty at the time of
the interview. Jerry Evanson, an acquaintance of Timmer, did not
recall a person named Oswald from the summer of fifty three.
Bud will mayor of Stanley and proprietor of City Trailer
and Motel, stated that his records did not show that
Oswald or his mother had ever stated his establishment. Lane
Evans vaguely remembered an incident in the park involving a fight,

(15:00):
but Evans could recall little else. Delvin Douglas, Jealous said,
indicated that he was unaware that Lee Harvey Oswald or
his mother had ever even been residents of Stanley, North Dakota.
Missus Harry Merbach indicated that she was not personally acquainted
with Lee Harvey Oswald or his mother. Ralph Hamray h Amri, E,
sheriff of Montreal County, Stanley's, the seat of that county, said,

(15:22):
to my knowledge, THEE. Harvey Oswald's never been a resident
at Stanley, North Dakota. Hammer also indicated that Timmer was
an iterant and unreliable. Missus Elmer Nelson, mother of Jack Fiahan,
gave the FBI her son's current address. The FBI decided
not to interview Feehan given their negative findings to that point.
Walter Poulsen, a lifelong Stanley resident, denied ever having known

(15:45):
Lee Harvey Oswald. More recent interviews of William Henry Timmer.
Timmer was interviewed by the BBC sometime in the nineteen sixties,
but that interview was never broadcast. Timmer was interviewed by
Armstrong on October twenty seventh, nineteen ninety four. Subsequent to
that interview, Timer was interviewed by Nigel Turner, a British
filmmaker who was also known for his series The Men

(16:06):
Who Killed Kennedy, which was broadcast in Britain and then
on various networks to the United States. The last broadcast
of the Men Who Killed Kennedy occurred on November twenty second,
two thousand and three, a segment that investigated the culpability
of Lyndon Baines Johnson in the assassination Jack Valenti, Oh
what do you know? Jack Valenti tried unsuccessfully to have
a prior restraint placed on the History Channel to keep

(16:27):
them from airing this episode. He was successful in stopping
the History Channel from re airing the episode and preventing
sales of DVDs that included the episode. Presumably, Turner went
two days interviewing Timmer with the intent that a subsequent
episode would address events in Stanley, North Dakota. Timer wrote
his mother after she sent him the newspaper photographs, that
the man in the newspaper was the same boy who

(16:50):
he had met in Stanley. His mother then sent the
letter to President Johnson. Oswald or an impostor, was probably
in North Dakota during July and August fifty three. Timer
was one of several persons whose evidence was ignored by
the FBI and never interviewed by the Warrant Commission. The
evidence applied by many of these persons was contradictory for
the evidence that they chose to use. It was Armstrong's

(17:11):
contention that the evidence placing Oswald in two different places
at the same time were too numerous not to investigate.
Armstrong would conclude that there were two Oswald's, A Lee
Harvey Oswald and A Harvey Lee Oswald. Interviews in nineteen
ninety nine, these writers conducted a series of interviews thirty
six years after the FBI interviews, addressing events in Stanley

(17:32):
relating to Oswald. Missus Al McCole, Jerry Evanson, and Lane Evans,
all interviewed in sixty three by the FBI, were interviewed
by US. Jerry Fihan, whom the FBI decided not to interview,
was interviewed by US. Two significant persons living in Stanley,
Keith Schulte, State's attorney for Montreal County and Russell Killen,

(17:52):
editor of Montreal County Promoter, were interviewed by US. Interview
of Al McCole. Two interviews were held with al McCole,
mother of WI William Henry Timmer. Several significant points were raised. First,
Missus Marguerite Oswald was said by Cole to be living
in Stanley for the duration of the time that Lee
Rvy Oswald was in North Dakota. Missus Oswald was pointed

(18:13):
out to Missus Cole in a dress shop by Cole's cousin,
Francis Jellisaid, who had been who had seen missus Oswald
at Jealousaid's restaurant in Stanley. Missus Oswald was loud and
wanted everyone to know she was from Texas. Missus Oswald
was described as having gray hair, glasses, and was at
most five foot three inches tall. That's a perfect description

(18:33):
of the fake Marguerite. Also, Cole indicated that her son
had told her that the boy wanted to be called
Lee Harvey rather than just Lee. Her son was with
Oswald when Oswald stole the book by Marx from a
small library in the room of the Memorial Building in Stanley.
William Henry Timmer declined to be interviewed by US at
this time interviews with Jerry Evanson and Lane Evans. Jerry

(18:57):
Evanson had kept in touch with Bill Timmer and had
visited him in the summer of nineteen ninety nine. Timmer
had never talked about the Oswald incident. To Evanson, Timmer
is not a bullshitter, in Evanson's interview, Evanson had thought
about the FBI interview thirty six years previously. Evanson was
interviewed at the Montreal County Courthouse in Stanley. President were himself,
Sheriff Ralph Hamray, and say Fred Harvey Leane Evans does lane.

(19:22):
Evans does recall a fight on the south side of Stanley,
where the swimming pool was located in nineteen ninety nine.
The fight involved an out of town person. Evans cannot
recall who was present. Evans was not instructed by the
FBI to avoid talking about this interview with them. Evans
was acquainted with Timer Jeal, said Evanson, Jack Fihan, liloh
lyle Ajo, and Verne Buehler. The significance of the last

(19:44):
two names individuals addressed later in the paper. Interview with
Jack Feehan. Jack Fiehan was scheduled to be interviewed by
the FBI in nineteen sixty three. After talking to his mother,
missus Elmer Nelson, the FBI decided Feehan would not be necessary.
We contacted Fihan through his son Greg. Jack Fienn indicated

(20:04):
that he had never discussed the Harvey Oswald experience with Timmer,
though they had remained in contact. Fienn had no recollection
of Harvey Oswald himself. In a subsequent interview, Greg Fihan
indicated that his father had called Timmer and asked him
about Oswald circumstances. Timmer, according to Greg's father, denied knowing
anything about the Oswald events. Interviews with Keith Schulty and
Russell Kylan. Keith Schulte state's attorney from Montreal County forty

(20:28):
seven to fifty seven and sixty to seventy five, stated
that he had never heard of the FBI coming to
Stanley regarding investigations of the Kennedy assassination. He thought that
Sheriff Hamray and Mayor Will would surely have told him
about being interviewed by the FBI. Similar reviews were expressed
by Russell Kylan, editor of the Montreal County Promoter forty
six to seventy nine. Both men expressed friendships with the

(20:50):
sheriff and the mayor, their expectations of communication in this
matter were not met. Dan Will, son of ex Mayor
Bud Will, said that his father never mentioned being interviewed
by the FBI in regards to an investigation of the assassination.
Interviews with Lyle Aho. We interviewed our We initiated our
trip to Stanley coordinated with missus Arlene Clark of the

(21:12):
Montreal County Historical Society. She suggested to us that there
was a person we might like to talk to his
curious story related to Lee Harvey Oswald. We began a
series of three interviews with Lyle Aho. Lyle was an
unassuming man five foot ten born on May ninth, nineteen
thirty nine, making him slightly older than Oswald in Belden.
Belden was a Finnish community and during the nineteen thirty

(21:35):
is a stronghold for the Communist Party. Belden is now
a ghost town. Aho's story took place in either summer
fifty five or fifty six. At the time, Ahoe was
perhaps five foot six. That summer, Aho spent a lot
of time with a relative, Verne Bueller. Bueller was thought
to be less than a year younger than Aho. Bueller

(21:55):
was born September twenty seventh, forty three, making him more
than four years younger than Aho. He was introduced as
an older boy, perhaps three to four years older, whose
name was Lee. Lee seemed to spend a lot of
time with Vvern Bueller, Aho thought Lee might be staying
at Bueller's. Lee told people that he was a furnace salesman.
Aho thought that this was a cover since Lee didn't
have anything like brochures or other material to back up

(22:17):
his claim. He didn't seem to spend any time going
door to door trying to sell furnaces. Li said that
the salesman job was just a cover that he actually
worked for the government. He was trying to recruit Bueller
and Aho to get two years of training and then
go to Cuba. They would make a lot of money.
Lee did seem to have a considerable money to spend.
Lee drove a forty nine or fifty black Mercury. Lee

(22:38):
would drive around town with Vern Buehler, Doug jellisaid in
perhaps Lane Evans, Pat Fihan, and Lionel Ellis. Aho stated
Lee always seemed to have enough money to go uptown
and have pops for himself and such, and the guy's
with him. He always seemed to have the money to
buy a Hamburger if he wanted one. Aho described Lee
as having dark hair. That's all interesting. Definitely not Oswald, right,

(22:59):
because Oswald's about thirteen fourteen tops. I mean, he'd be
the most sixteen, but you couldn't get a driver's license
at sixteen back then, and Oswald never had a driver's license,
so not Oswald. Ao was shown a picture a series
of pictures during two subsequent interviews. The pictures were taken
from a number of sources, most of which showed Oswald
among other persons. The first picture he identified as Lee

(23:22):
was a picture of Oswald as a twelve year old
at the zoo in New York City. Ojo stated, it's
poor picture. Possibly the guy was older than that. The
next tenthative identification was a picture of Oswald in a
classroom in New Orleans nineteen fifty five, in which Oswald
was holding his head up so that the missing front
tooth shows. The next picture Oho identified as possibly being Lee,
with the picture of Oswald alone in Moscow, the picture

(23:44):
of Oswald and his coworkers in Moscow. Elicited the response, well,
it could be, but you can't see the cheekbones. Very good.
A collage of seventy seven pictures taken throughout Oswald's life
was shown to a Aho picked three of those pictures
as kind of looking like the guy. The first Two
of these were the backyard photo showing Oswald with the gun,
and copies of the militant and the daily worker. In
the crop pictures, Aho saw only the head showed. The

(24:08):
last picture that Aho recognized and possibly being Lee, was
Oswald dressed in civilian clothes holding a gun while in
the Marines. Holy shit, Hang on a second, Hang on
a second. Let me back up a little bit, because
I'm kind of I'm kind of I'm kind of holy shit,
Oh my god, this might make sense. Work with me here. Okay,

(24:29):
So we got a guy saying that Oswald was in
North Dakota and that he drove a forty nine or
fifty Mercury and he would drive around town with Verne
Bueller and Doug jealousid or perhaps Leane Evans and Pat
Fihan and Lionel Ellis. But he was a couple of
years older than him, right, he was old enough to
drive a car. This is July of nineteen fifty five.

(24:50):
In August of nineteen fifty five, where the fuck is
Robert Oswald? Robert Oswald gets out of the marine in
July of nineteen fifty five. Robert Oswald got out of

(25:12):
the Marines in July of nineteen fifty five, jumped to
North Dakota July of nineteen fifty five, and we have
Lyle Ajo saying that a guy named Lee would drive
around in this car, a black Mercury forty nine or
fifty black Mercury. Okay, So Robert Oswald made this distinct

(25:37):
statement that when he gets out of the Marines in
July of nineteen fifty five in Fort Worth, the first
thing he did was he bought a car, and then
he drove to New Orleans. What kind of car did
Robert Oswald buy when he got out of the Marines
in July of nineteen fifty five. I'm pretty sure I'd
have to go check the Warren Commission testimony. I'm pretty

(25:58):
sure it is in there. I just don't have it
in front of me. But could it have been a
forty nine or fifty black Mercury, I don't know. I
don't know at all. But he's saying this guy who
identified as Lee Oswald was driving around in a car,
and that sure as fuck is not Harvey Oswald, who's
only about fifteen years of old, fifteen years of age

(26:19):
at this time. That would have made Robert Oswald closer
to eighteen or nineteen or twenty, and he described Lee
as having dark hair like Robert Oswald. Ooh, Diana, this
is something we need to look into, because Robert Oswald
might have been in North Dakota July and August of
fifty five, which contradicts everything he said about New Orleans.

(26:39):
Oh Man, that's interesting. That's really interesting, and it would
make a lot of sense too. Aho did not have
any particular recollection of the assassination. He was probably in Stanley,
but he doesn't recall with any clarity news of the assassination.
He does not connect Oswald with the Lee that he knew.
Aho further described Lee is having a Southern accent, probably Texan.

(27:02):
Lee weighed about one hundred and fifty pounds, not in
nineteen fifty five. He wore baggy clothes. He was slender,
although he was he thought he might be getting a
gang together to rob Banks or something. Aho had. In
his adultthood worked on construction a construction company known as
Brown and Root. What Aho worked for? Brown and Root

(27:24):
owned by Lyndon Johnson. That's wild. When asked who owned them,
Aho replied, missus Lyndon Baines Johnson. He saw her picture
in the company magazine ground Builder. Ahoe was disabled in
a car accidentally in nineteen seventy six. Eventually he took
up tailoring to make a living. He lived most of
his life in Stanley. After the questioning was done, Aho

(27:46):
asked of the pictures, who is this guy? He seemed
genuinely unaware that he was looking at pictures of Lee
Harvey Oswald Vern Bueller. It would have been important to
contact Vern Bueller to corroborate or refute Aho's information. Thought
Bueller died sometime in the sixties, Ahoe was able to
give us a list of Bueller's siblings. Vern Bueller was
found to be living in Seattle, Washington with his younger

(28:08):
brother Dale. Vern remembered the person named Lee and Stanley,
but he was not as close a friend as Aho
thought him to be. Lee did not live with the Buellers.
Bueller remembered the talk about going to Cuba. He also
remembered Lee as a fast talker the Cuba connection. The
Lee in this story could be Lee Harvey Oswald, an impostor,

(28:30):
or just some Southern boy named Lee. If it is
the latter, there are several possibilities, but it is interesting
to note that Castro was in Mexico preparing to invade
Cuba and was training his troops for that effort. Lee
may have heard about the Cuba story from Oswald or
someone else. Of course, Lee's name could have been something
other than Lee. Lee may have given some thought of

(28:51):
trying to join Castro's group, though we can't imagine Castro
welcoming three Gringo youths into his revolution. Lee might have
been testing the waters to see if he could find
others fool hard enough to try to go to Mexico
and join Castroup. On the other hand, Oswald may have
already been an asset of the CIA by this time.
Were Oswald interested in infiltrating Castro's group then training at
Rancho Santa Rosa near Chalco, approximately twenty miles from Mexico City,

(29:15):
he would probably have either gone there alone or brought
companions who had some military experience. Given that Oswald had
already attempted to enter the Marines at sixteen and would
enter the Marines in October of fifty six, it would
seem most unlikely that he would go to Stanley to
recruit two boys who would be less than fifteen years old.
If the CIA were already in process of building an
Oswald legend, an imposter might have been sent to Stanley

(29:37):
for that purpose, particularly if Oswald or an impersonator had
been there in the summer of fifty three information about Oswald.
At the time the Warren Report, the information about Oswald
had mainly come from government sources. The material in the
Warren Report itself built a case for establishing Oswald's guilt
in the assassination, along with the report, which was widely

(29:58):
published and disseminated, where the twenty six volumes of evidence.
Only a few thousand of these twenty six volumes were produced,
and many were sent to libraries. Few initially read these volumes,
but those who did found a different picture that was
woven in the report itself. In the twenty six volumes,
there were several FBI reports of sightings of Oswald not
mentioned in the much shorter report. The first fifteen volumes

(30:20):
consisted of seventy nine h nine pages of testimonies and affidavits.
The final eleven volumes contained three thousand, nine hundred and
twelve commissions exhibits in eight hundred and thirty one pages.
There were also commissioned documents that were seen too sensitive
to publish. These documents constituted three hundred and fifty seven
cubic feet of material. The Stanley FBI interviews were among
the latter. The government sought to have these documents kept

(30:42):
under seal until twenty thirty nine. Many of these materials,
often with substantial redaction, were made available through releases by
the Archives, through the Freedom of Information Act, or through
the Assassination Records Review Board. One diligent researcher, Harold Weisberg,
working mainly before the ARRB Report became available, wrote several
books attacking the War Report using only Warren Commission documents.

(31:04):
One particularly damaging publication was the transcript of the Warren Commission,
and as its members were setting the Commission's guidelines, the
Oswald picture they were intent on painting of a lone
or deranged individual was already challenged by reports that Oswald
was an FBI informant. Because of Weisberg, we have the
complete transcript, which came into his possession through a FOYA.
There have been many number of books that have addressed

(31:26):
Oswald and the Warren Report conclusions. Fewer have addressed Oswald
as a person, and that did was the unpublished One
that did was the unpublished manuscript by George de Moornshield
I'm a Patsy. I'm a Patsy. Demornshield had befriended Lee
and Marina Oswald and introduced them to Russian speaking community
in Dallas. De Warrenshield saw Oswald as being badly treated
by Marina. She picked on him annoyed him as if

(31:49):
she desired a separation, which she achieved through us the
letter from Marina's ex lover, which Lee intercepted. What annoyed
us also was that Marina tried to ridicule Lee. She
called him a fool in a more Two other writers
of note addressed Oswald in far more depth than any
other writings than they need to be explored. John Armstrong
wrote a definitive book on the hypothesis that there were

(32:10):
two Lee Harvey Oswald's. One was a boy born in
New Orleans in nineteen thirty nine, but who essentially disappeared
after the assassination, probably taking on another persona. The other
was probably a Russian speaking youth who was brought over
around age twelve and would eventually assume Oswald's identity. That
I disagree with I truly believe their brothers. Armstrong called
the boy born in New Orleans Lee in the Russian

(32:31):
speaking boy Harvey. The other books are by Judy Verry Baker,
who's a total fucking fraud. By the way, Judy Baker's
a fucking fraud, And if you're listening, Judy, fuck you.
Whereas Armstrong again relies prominently on the documents from the
twenty six volumes accompanying the Warren Report and documents Pride
Loose by the four Foia and Arb, along with many
interviews conducted by him and members of his research team.

(32:53):
Baker's story as her personal story with Lee Harvey Oswald.
Her story was also broadcast on The Men Who Killed
Kennedy Part eight. Baker has recently completed another book about Oswald.
At this point, we need to address the big enigma
regarding Oswald. How did he become as proficient as he
did in the in the spoken in spoken Russian. That's
the biggest mystery of all, because, like, even with this

(33:16):
Harvey and Lee stuff going on, we don't have Harvey
hop in the picture till July of nineteen fifty three,
and we don't have any indication that he had any accent.
He wasn't native Russian speaking. He spoke like a normal boy.

(33:38):
He didn't have any kind of Russian drawl. So there's
no no nobody knows when the fuck this guy learned
to speak Russian. He definitely didn't learn from from records.
When I grew up. I grew up in New York
when I was a little kid, and I had a
friend who was Russian, like right off the boat from Russia,
and they taught me a little bit of Russian back then,
And holy shit, is that a hard fucking language. That

(33:59):
is a hard fuck. They have thirty three letters in
their alphabet, Okay, so to us dummies with only twenty
six were like, what the fuck right? So the idea
that Oswald, who was only of moderate intelligence, he only
had at most one hundred and eighteen IQ, which is
fucking pitly nothing. That motherfucker definitely did not come to
understand Russian overnight. And we don't know when the fuck

(34:19):
he learned to do this, And I just don't know.
I have no idea. He had to have learned as
a child co learning two languages at once. I mean,
that's the only possibility. According to Armstrong. For reasons that
may never be known. Lee Oswald was chosen and sent
to New York City in the fall of fifty two
to begin the process of lending his identity to a
Russian speaking boy from Eastern Europe. Several years later, this

(34:42):
boy defected to Russia after assuming the Harvey Oswald identity
and background. It should be pointed out that this was
Armstrong's hypothesis, to be contrasted with the Warren Report thesis.
Another hypothesis is that Oswald learned Russian under the auspices
of the CIA. It would also explain why Oswald, who
was fairly fluent in Russian, refrained from speaking Russian during
his stay in Russia. He did not want to be

(35:04):
suspected of being a CIA false defector. That's another weird thing.
He goes he speaks Russian, but he goes to Russia
and he never speaks Russian in Russia. That fucking weird.
Oswald claimed not knowing a word of Russian on his
defection to the Soviet Union on October sixteenth, fifty nine.
While Judith Baker disputes that Oswald was anything other than
American born, she recognizes his facility in Russian. Baker had

(35:26):
studied Russian in high school. While it's not presently known
how Oswald learned Russian, it seems most likely that the
Lee Harvey Oswald arrested on November twenty second, sixty three
was clearly American born with a residual Cajun accent. Consider
Oswald's encounter in the hallway while in police custody, did

(35:47):
you kill the President? No? I've not been charged with that.
In fact, nobody said that to me. Yet. The first
thing I heard was from the newspaper reporter in the
hall who asked me that question. It seemed most unlikely
that a Shian born person would lapse into a Cajun
pronunciation of the word asked Oswald and the customs agent.

(36:08):
It is interesting that although Baker insisted Oswald was born
in the US, it is through her that a mechanism
for the second Oswald could come to the US. According
to Baker, Oswald had skipped school and gone to Niagara Falls,
where a cooperative customs agent, Arthur Young later known as
Charles Thomas, allowed the twelve year old unaccompanied Oswald to
cross over into Canada and then let him back into

(36:28):
the US later in the day, whatever the actual details
of that story, a customs agent who would allow a
twelve year old a cross a boundary into Canada ten
years later Previously Young, now Thomas was sent to New
Orleans to facilitate Oswald's passport application to go to Mexico City.
The passport was available to Oswald the day after he applied.
Now that is a coincidence. Okay, this needs to be

(36:51):
looked into. This Oswald Niagara Falls shit, I know nothing
about it whatsoever. It sounds unrealistic. How to fuck would
Oswald have gotten from New York City to Niagara fucking
Falls to cross into Canada. Give me a break. This
is ridiculous. Now, it does need to be looked into.
The names Arthur Young and Charles Thomas. One could hypothesize

(37:13):
that Harvey Oswald and Eastern European youth would immigrate to
the US through the Niagara Falls customs with the cooperation
of Young and Thomas, and that Young and Thomas was
later enlisted to facilitate Oswald's visit to Mexico. It is possible, however,
that the actual facts may support the simple story that
Oswald was allowed to cross the boundary and then come
back across later. No hypothesize Harvey was necessarily involved. Okay,

(37:37):
so this story is completely foreign to me. I have
extreme doubts about this, because how the funck would Oswald
ever have gotten to Niagara Falls. This doesn't make any
sense whatsoever other useful Oswald references. Armstrong's to Oswald theory
is by no means the first such theory. Rather, his
is the most extensive expression of the tow Oswald theory,
backed up by a considerable amount of research produced produce

(38:00):
using a thousand page texts together with a similar amount
of exhibits on a cd RAM. There are a variety
of persons who have developed theories related to discrepancies in
the Warren documents, particularly regarding Oswald's activities. For example, Oswald
was on a bus trip to Mexico City when he
supposedly was seen at Sylvia Odeo's home in Dallas. Twyman
wrote on the tow Oswald scenario in his book. An

(38:22):
earlier book that theorizes a Russian speaking Eastern European would
be substituted for Oswald was written by W. R. Morris
and JB. Cutler. A pictorial record of Lee Harvey Oswald
was produced by Grodin in an excellent volume edited by
James Fetzer. Fetzer wrote a chapter on Jesse Curry's assassination
file and asked the rhetorical question, could Oswald have been convicted?

(38:44):
Fetzer then sets about showing probable doubt, if not exoneration
for Oswald. On this one point, I'll disagree with Fetzer.
All he did was show Oswald was probably innocent. Henry
Wade would have probably prosecuted the case. Wade never lost
a case he prosecuted. Never mind the fact that many
of the persons he helped convict would have their convictions
overturned through DNA evidence and Wade's jurisdiction. At that point

(39:04):
in time, innocence was not a deterrent to conviction. Judy
Very Baker Judy Baker's story about Lee Harvey Oswald differs
from other accounts in that her account is at a
personal level. Very briefly, Judith and Lee met in a
post office in New Orleans on April twenty six, sixty three.
Hold on a second, What they met at a post office?
I thought they both worked for the fucking Riley Coffee Company.
See this bitch can't make up her fucking mind. I

(39:26):
fucking hate this woman. Judith Very has gone to the
post office to get a letter from her fiancee, Robert Baker.
Judith was holding a rolled up newspaper and a circle
coded message on it to Robert that fell when she
reached over the counter and to give the post a
worker or a letter. The newspaper fell on Oswald, who
was in line behind her, picked it up. Judith said
in Russian, thank you, comrade, Lee answered her in Russian.

(39:48):
Judith had a habit of using Russian in other foreign
languages in salutations and letters. Judith Baker, fuck you, dude,
You're so stupid it's fucking unbelievable, passing fucking secret messages
to her fiancee fuck you. From that encounter, they would
quickly become friends, though Judas's impending marriage would for a
while preclude more than a friendship. Judith had come to

(40:11):
New Orleans to work with doctor Alton Oshner, an internationally
known cancer researcher who had a clinic that treated cancer
patients as well as others. Judith had an outstanding record
and doing science research and had recently been working with
fast acting cancers. Even though she was only nineteen years old.
In nineteen sixty three, Oswald first introduced Judith to David
Ferry as well as to Guy Banister. Banister confirmed to

(40:31):
Judith that Oswald was working on the anti cats. Oh
my god, she's so full of shit. Later that day,
April twenty seven, sixty three, Oswald took her to Charity
Hospital for their appointments with doctor Oshner, with Oswald going
in first. Oswald's interview lasted about forty minutes. After Oswald
left doctor Oshner's office, Judith was invited in. In Judas's interview,

(40:51):
she agreed to participate in clandestine projects. Oh so she's
passing fucking secret messages to her fucking fiance, say, via
a newspaper. But it's after that that she's asked to
be involved with clandestine projects. Okay, anybody out there who
believes a word of Judy Baker's fucking drivel is a
fucking moron. Seriously fuck that woman. On May second, Judith

(41:14):
and Robert Baker were married on the Oh so he's
a cheating whore. Also, right, so she fucked around with
Oswald and then got married. Anyway, this woman is disgusting.
On the evening of May third sixty three, Robert Baker
left for his summer employment on a seismic survey ship
in the Gulf of Mexico. Judith had arrived early to
New Orleans. Oshner had asked Judith to come at the
end of the school year, but was unfamiliar with the

(41:36):
trimester system, which led out about three weeks earlier than
a semester system. Her work with Oshner would begin May tenth,
apparently through a mix up. She was thought to be
the young researcher who would liaison with David Ferry and
his research with mice and cancer. She began this work
through a clandestine arrangement. She and Oswald were hired by
the Standard Coffee Company, a subsidiary of Riley Coffee Company,

(41:59):
to be transferred to coffee the following week. It would
appear that Oswald was getting money under the table. He
gave Judith four hundred dollars before she left New Orleans.
This gift has a double meaning. Not only does it
relate to Oswald's caring for Judith, but it also addresses
the issue of Oswald having considerably more money than his
meager wages at Riley Coffee. Okay, this is all bullshit. People.
I'm just reading this because this is what it says.

(42:19):
But this is all nonsense. Can't believe the fucking word
at Jude the Baker's mouth. Even this low paying job had
been lost several weeks prior to Oswald's four hundred dollars
gift to Judith. The most likely source of this money
would seem to be an unvouched money from the CIA.
Oh really, of all things, just had to be the CIA.
This is why, this is why I hate researchers, because
they're so fucking retarded. The most likely source of this

(42:41):
money would seem to have been unvouched money from the CIO.
Oh really, you're making ten assumptions in one fucking sentence here,
Jesus Christ Oswald being involved with the CIA would also
explain why Oswald's relationship with Alton Oshner and Oswald's relationship
with a Guy Banister without releasing Judas's books to on Oswald.
From her viewpoint, they fell in love, had begun an
intimate relationship, and in late August planned to get together

(43:01):
in Mexico in the next several months. Rather than being
the loner and crazed assassin that the warrant commission painted
him to be. Oswald was a complex young man, but
one who was caught up in a web of circumstances
that left no way out as to whether Oswald and
Jack Ruby knew each other. Ruby was asked by Carlos
Marcello to keep an eye on Oswald after Oswald's first
attempt to get into the Marines. At one point, Ruby

(43:23):
asked Oswald if he wanted to be in Marcello's family.
Oswald was already at least somewhat connected to the mafia
through his uncle dutz Moret. Oswald said he preferred to
be in the military family. Why did Judy Baker wait
so long to tell her story? First, there was the

(43:43):
issue that she was, until nineteen eighty nine, still married
to Robert Baker. From Judith's point of view, she saw
herself going to Mexico to live with Oswald in a
few months, so she could tread water. Until then, her
husband never asked any questions about Judas activities while he
was working on the Gulf Coast. After Oswald's death, she
just settled in, eventually having five children with Baker. They
finally divorced in nineteen eighty nine. Decided to write the

(44:07):
book about Oswald, given them many deaths associated with those
close to the JFK assassination see Robert and Armstrong. Being
careful seemed prudent. She'd already been warned by David Ferry
in the December of sixty three that she would die
if she ever revealed what she knew. She was told.
The santostrophicante was having Judith monitored. Ferry told her, you
have to be a vanilla girl, a nobody. Keep your

(44:29):
head down, don't make waves if you want to stay alive.
Ferry finished with, I can never contact you again, and
you can never speak about this to anyone, for all
or for all our own good. Judas's plan in the
early nineteen nineties was to write a book and to
leave it with her son, who was a professor of economics.
She would eventually go through three separate versions. There were
problems with getting it published. When the two volumes were

(44:49):
published in June of two thousand and six, contractual problems
made it necessary to remove them from the market in
less than a month. Who was in Stanley, North Dakota
in the summers of fifty three and fifty six, Okay,
these years are wrong Okay, there's no way Oswald was
in Stanley in fifty six. It's only fifty three. I've

(45:11):
never heard another reference to Oswald being there in fifty six,
so the years here have to be fucking wrong. The
person seen in Stanley in the summer of fifty three
was most likely Lee Harvey Oswald, or an Oswald impostor,
which could include Harvey if Armstrong's hypostis about an Eastern
European Russian speaking youth having emigrated to the United States

(45:32):
were true. Note that admitting Oswald an impostor at this
point would have clearly pointed to a conspiracy. The more
benign version would be that it was Oswald, true to
the FBI's process of ignoring contrary evidence. Given the choice,
it appears the FBI chose to make the interpretation that
the witnesses must have been mistaken. What of the FBI
interviews showing several persons saying neither Oswald Nor's mother were

(45:54):
residents of Stanley. Our interpretation is that the meaning of
the term resident allowed the speaker to deny this status
to the Oswalds. In nineteen fifty three, Stanley's population had
doubled due to an infusion of new persons involved in
the expanding oil industry, Locals often saw the oil people
as itterants and thus not residents. A personal example might
shed some light. In nineteen ninety I was living with

(46:15):
my family in an older section of Grand Forks, North Dakota.
We had lived in this location for ten years. I
was out doing some yard work in the front yard
when an older couple was walking by. The husband asked,
do I live here? I said yes. He responded how long?
I said ten years. Demand turned to his wife in
a low voice and said newcomers. It would have served
the purpose of j. Edgar Hoover that the person's interview

(46:36):
in Stanley had a different meaning to resident than might
be inferred from reading the FBI reports. The person seen
in Stanley in nineteen fifty six named Lee with the
Southern probably Texan accent, could have either been Oswald or
an Oswald Impostler, or simply a young Southerner with a
remarkably similar appearance to Oswald, together with an interest in
going to Cuba, also coincidental in the interests that an

(46:58):
older Oswald would have to the assassination. It seems likely
that more than one Oswald imposter was active. So the
rest of this chapter continues on with a bunch of
other stuff about Harvey and Lee doesn't have anything to
do with the North Dakota stuff, So I'm gonna call
it right here. But this information on a Lee, on

(47:18):
a Lee being in Stanley in fifty six, I don't
know where this comes from at all. Period. I'm having
a feeling that the timing is probably wrong. It wasn't
fifty six, it was probably fifty three. And everything I
said about Robert Oswald earlier was probably wrong because that
wouldn't that would make sense if he went to Stanley,

(47:38):
but he We have no evidence of this, right, So
I'm just talking out my ass here. But that's gonna
do it for me today, guys. I'll be back. We'll
do another couple shows this week. I'll definitely have another
World War II show for you guys, because that stuff's
blowing up lately. But that's gonna do it, and I
will be back next time. Thanks, guys,

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Lee Harvey Oswald - North Dakota and Beyond

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