45: Positive Forestry with Nick and Matt

This week we interview Matt (Aspect Forestry and Rural Management) and Nick (Kilmaha Forestry) about what actually happens in forestry and the moves in the last 20 years away from bare monocultures and towards more diverse and sensitive plantations.

We cover every stage of forestry and the consideration taken for nature, from planting and selective weeding through to after care and harvesting of timber with minimal ground damage, and the benefits of using timber over other Carbon expensive materials like steel and concrete.

Finally the guys talk about the industry as a whole and the impact that vilification of a sector can have on the mental health of the humans within it.

CountrySlide is a podcast that looks at farming, conservation and life in the British countryside.

Send us photos of your interesting trinkets that your other half wants to burn or bin as submissions to the calendar or for fun at: [e-mail] 

Links

- The video launching the sector-wide mental health initiative
- Matt on X , bluesky and Aspect Forestry website
- Nick on X and Kilmaha Forestry website
- Forestry Contracting Association
- Subscribe on Patreon for extra content (you can cancel at any time)
- Richard Negus interview on YouTube
- If you enjoy what we do, consider a one-off tip on Ko-fi
- CountrySlide website
- Negus' book tour dates can be found here

The Hosts

Richard Negus website
Callum McInerney-Riley website
Richard Prideaux website


Edited and Produced by Amy Green for Rural and Outdoor.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Are they. I can hear everything now, All good, All good, Okay, Well,
this week's podcast is a very unusual format because it's
just me talking to two guests because I've been abandoned
by the Richards who just left me to go about

(00:23):
being the curious observer. With my two guests, Matthew and Nick.
I would introduce you, but I don't really know other
than Twitter usernames, I don't really know everything about you two,
so I will need a little bit of help. I've

(00:44):
just worked out how to pronounce Nick's Twitter handle, which
is also his business name, kill Maha. Is that correct? Okay?
So that is your your company, and Matthew is Aspect
Aspect Forestry that's light yeah yeah. And management yeah, and

(01:07):
rural management and management as well. So I have spoke
to you a little bit on Twitter, actually quite a bit,
to be fair, and I think I've annoyed you a
fair a few times about what's wrong with certain trees
when you post things. My pretty sure I mentioned you

(01:27):
in one of the podcasts if that definitely made it
to the edit where I think you moaned about some
really badly planted trees and I had zero idea why
they were badly planted. So I asked you and you
educated me on exactly what was wrong with it, which
is really helpful that you take your time to do

(01:50):
that sort of stuff. So when I was asked to
have you as guests, it was a great idea because
I know almost nothing about forestry. I know about as
much about forestry as Richard Nigus knows about cryptocurrency. So
today I'm here to learn from you two.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
Excellent stuff. Well, thank you for having.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Us for a start. Forestry is a broad term and
not that many people know exactly what forestry is, and
I think one of the things we want to do
today is work out not just what it is, but
why it's. What's changed in forestry and the public perception

(02:36):
of forestry now compared to well what it was and
what it is now. So yeah, explain what does what
does the day to day look like, and what's the
kind of goal of your role in forestry.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
From my point of view, And I'll hand over to
sort of Nick to sort of explain what he gets
up to certainly on a day to day basis. But
I am primarily a timber harvesting contractor and I'm a

(03:14):
mechanized a mechanized contract in terms of a carry out
the felling with machinery extraction by machine. And we're based
over here in East Anglia in Suffolk, so in the
same sort of neighborhood as mister Nigas. And we're managing

(03:38):
and harvesting timber across a variety of clients, but mainly
a state based work. We do a small amount for
organizations like the local council wildlife trusts, but it's primarily

(03:58):
a state based work. And and I harvest and market
that timber in to whatever products that those trees are
producing and whatever the markets are requires at the time.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
So what's the what do they usually go to?

Speaker 2 (04:17):
Sorry, it really depends so so that a lot of
our work is based around broad leaf trees or hard
wood as we tend to call it. We're doing a
lot of sort of woodland thinning coppice work. At the moment,
we're doing ash regeneration work and restructuring woodlands in the

(04:45):
face of various diseases that we're faced with, trying to
get those woods woodlands more resilient. Yeah, and and and
so so the products that we're putting it into because
the woodlands that we work quite often have been quite undermanaged,

(05:09):
and that's a historical thing, especially in this part of
the world where probably post Second World War and the
decline in rural labor has meant that those woodlands haven't
had a great deal done in film, especially especially coppice woodlands,

(05:30):
where the coppice stools now have grown far too large,
and we're now getting them back into a sort of
regular coppice rotation. A lot of the material that I
caught is wood fuel based. It's firewood, it's biomass for chipping.
But we also do other things where we're fell in

(05:51):
oak timber that goes into a variety of higher end
markets and things like sweet chestnut does as well.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
So is that like furniture making and like, yeah, yes,
certain things.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
Yeah, yeah, certainly a lot of the oak that we
fell will go into green oak construction, sort of house
restoration work period, top property type type situations, quality fence
in work, and and and planks and boats. So so yeah,

(06:30):
we're involved in in a whole variety of stuff. But
but Nick's work, his is concentrated around the around this
other the other end of the time scale.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
So yeah, I got a Nick, what what what's your
what's your side of it.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
So mostly what I am is an establishment contractor, so
I plant trees and I look after him.

Speaker 4 (06:57):
That's the main of our job.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
And we do some other bits and pieces around that,
sort of little bits of fell in or state work
and maintenance and things.

Speaker 4 (07:08):
Yeah, So our business is seasonal.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
So the main work we get is in the winter
when we're planting the trees, and we plant mostly broad
leaves where I am in the country, and we plant
a little bit of conifer other places in the north
of England. In Scotland there's a lot more conifer.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
And so what is a broad leaf?

Speaker 4 (07:31):
It is not a conifer, if you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (07:34):
So it's anything that isn't Anything that isn't a conifer
is generally a broad leaf. So you look in your
hard words oak and beach and the hedge species that
Richard Navius plants, they're all I mean, you could use
a word to situous, but I hate that word, so
I don't want to.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
It's too big, too big a word.

Speaker 4 (07:56):
So that's what I do.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
And then so we plant all winter and then in
the summer months we maintain what we've planted the previous
year and the previous year before that, and sometimes depending
on it, you know, three or four years ago.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
So are you planting for essentially like a crop, are
you planting like that or are you what's the what's
the purpose for your slanting.

Speaker 3 (08:19):
We are quite lucky by Ariann because we do a
bit of everything. So we can plant for a timber crop,
which we do that and that is generally one hundred
per We don't do monocultures so much in this country anymore.
We do do them, but not as much as we
used to. So a conifer plantation for me would be
three or four different species. It would be sicker and

(08:42):
douglas and western red seed or for example. And the
other thing we plant then is sort of native broad leaves.
So we would do sites that are specifically for nature
rather than timber production, and a lot of sites would
do would be for both. So we would have say

(09:04):
eighty percent of a timber production and then twenty percent
of it as mitigation for that essentially.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Right, Okay, Because so if it's timber production, it's not
so good for nature. I suppose it is temporarily, but
it's you offset it with a little bit of supplementary conservation.
Planting or have I got that disastrously right.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
Not disastrously wrong.

Speaker 3 (09:34):
But I would argue that conifer is no less good
for nature than a native broadly simply for the fact
that it, at the end of the day produces a product,
generally a timber product, which can go you know, if
it's been properly maintained and kept, you will get building

(09:54):
materials if nothing else. And then that one allgate steel
and concrete production, which is highly intensive carbon industries. So yeah,
on the face of it, this is probably one of
the things we we will want to talk about about
how forestry is positive and there's a lot of negativity
around it. Is this thing that conifer plantations are dead

(10:16):
zones and they are not as good for nature as
broad leaves, which on Facebook kind of yes, but there
is a different, a different aspect to conifer. It's a
different way of being good for nature, if you know
what I mean, because it negates other things which are
really not good for nature. So it's that kind of

(10:37):
a little bit of everything that forestry should be is.
It's not one thing is not the other, it's everything
in moderation essentially.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
So let me just go back second, So what are
what are you using conifers for in terms of building materials?
How has that used?

Speaker 3 (10:59):
So when it's got it takes back fifty to sixty
years to get to a tree that will be the
size you need for building materials.

Speaker 5 (11:07):
So it is really yeah, yeah, it's a long old
time it is, which is quite sad why we stopped
really planting conifer in the eighties because we're starting to
run out now at the are saying is the you know,
the best time to plant a conifer was thirty years ago.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
And second best time is today. So we need to
keep we need to keep it rolling, if you know
what I mean. That's why we import so much timber
into this current eighty percent. I think there's only China
that imports more timber than we do as a net percentage.

Speaker 4 (11:37):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (11:38):
Yeah, So if you look around your house, this is
a classic example. If you look around your house and
see what's made of wood, it's all conifer. So you
know you're your second fix your doors, your architrave in
your skirt, in the tables, sat at the roof, trusses
in your loft, the floorboards, it's all coming from a

(11:59):
cornifer plantantation somewhere in the world. Yeah, yeah, so that
what we'd really like to do is have it come.

Speaker 4 (12:07):
From here, which is why we plant conifers.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
I had no idea that conifers we used quite so
widely as building materials.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
They're news for everything, and the best thing of the
conference is you can use them for just about everything.
So just to take you very quickly for the life
of it, I plan. I plan a conifer tree for
about five years or so. I'll maintain it because the
first five years is crucial to get it away, make
sure it's got good form and it's not you know,
credit it by weeds and whatnot. Around about twenty twenty

(12:40):
five years, depending on I was grown, you'll do something
called the first thinning, which is you put racks in
so every seventh row you take out, and either side
of the row is someone called a matrix you with
thin that very slightly take the worst trees out so
the best ones can grow on five ten years, I thought,
you'll do another thing in and then out of about fifty

(13:02):
six years of clear fallet, and then the hope is
then when you're clear fire, you've got the really good
quality log for your building materials. The thinning is then,
so when you do the first thing, you can get
all kinds of products are well, so fencing products like
steaks for stock fencing. Yeah, you can get buy a
mass out of it. For chipping a lot like Matt

(13:24):
does the second thing, and you'll get a bit of that,
a bit more chip and you'll start to get log then,
which you can use for your building materials. So there
is not one product you can't get out of a
corner for tree, you can use the whole thing. We're
chipping a brash now in places for a buyo mass.
So we're literally taking every part of the trees and.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Use everything can be yeah, used nose to tail version
of of yeah, of trees.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
Yeah, I mean this is what I mean by we
was talking alrong before you've been a complete industry. It
literally does everything you could need to do.

Speaker 1 (14:06):
I've seen some places like lakes and things like that
they get dug and within the first year it just
looks like someone has dropped a bomb from an aeroplane
and it's just a hole in the ground and then
give it. Sometimes it's not even that long, but say
five years and there's trees and there's reeds, and then

(14:30):
you'll start seeing all these different insect life and quickly
it gets established as a good place for nature. Goodbyeodiversity.
You start getting frogsy in and all sorts. And this
might be a field that was just devoid of life
only five years prior. So using that as an example,

(14:53):
what once you've planted conifers, how long before it does
start you start seeing nature flock to it? Even in
the early science. I mean, I know certain plants don't
grow for needs ancient woodland and root beds and all sorts,

(15:13):
But at what point does it start becoming a net
positive for nature?

Speaker 3 (15:20):
That's so as you put it in the ground, I'd say,
as soon as you've planned it, but we're in well, yeah,
as soon as you planned it. As soon as it
comes out of his dormancy in the winter, it starts growing,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (15:33):
And I sin, how can I put it?

Speaker 3 (15:39):
So we have to maintain and drawing the summer as
essentially is making sure they've got enough room to grow.
So it's getting rid of the weeds around the trees, but.

Speaker 4 (15:47):
They also.

Speaker 3 (15:49):
The weeds as well as the confer Then if you
take the site as a whole thing, a trap pollinators
from the get go, you know, I mean, so if
you get and pants in there, which we leave them
in there. I think this is another misconception of conifers
being dead zones, is that they're absolutely not. We never
take anything, you know, kill off anything more than we

(16:12):
ever need to. So you've always got pollinators to begin with,
and then as the tree grows, you get you know,
bird nesting and and that. Yeah, color if us will
never be as boidivers as broad leaves, and I don't
think you'll find any for us who will try and
maintain it or claim it otherwise. It's the thing I

(16:32):
said about conference being good in a different way.

Speaker 1 (16:35):
Yeah, what why Why isn't a kind of as good
as a broad leaf? Is it just that provides poor
nesting material? Or is it the fact they're not as
diverse as as should you plant a mixed bag of
broad leaves? What's the what's the bad side? What? What's

(16:58):
that negative being compared to the broad leaf?

Speaker 3 (17:02):
I don't think it is negative really kind of. I
just think it's not quite a Matthew answer that one.
I can't think, I can't think of.

Speaker 4 (17:10):
A word, I know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
I think there's an awful lot in there, and to
be honest, you could write several PhD thesises on that
very subject. I think, I think overall, and I think
Nick has already touched upon this, there are a lot
of misconceptions and bias out there about forestry, the forestry

(17:37):
industry and what we do, and and it does come
down to this sort of polarizing thought of conifers versus
broad leaves, and again we sort of repeat ourselves. And
there's no doubt about it. A collection of broad leaf
species within a woodland is more biodie burst than a

(18:01):
than a standard conifer. But there's a lot of there's
a lot of advantages to planting conifers, and we've already
touched upon those from their productivity point of view. But
there are very specific specific species that favor conifers. And

(18:22):
just like Nick was saying about the floral species that
will come in onto a onto a new planting site,
I mean specifically, bird species like night jar will favor
either either newly re stopped sites because they are a
ground nesting bird and they like the openness of them,

(18:45):
or or a site that's that's just been clear feled.
So that's that's certainly a specific species that'll be in
the uplands. But what I tend to find from my
own sort of personal point of view, and we tend
to get this more over in this part of the world,

(19:07):
in the east of the country, is is you'll get
a mixture of both broad leaves and conifers within the
same woodland. And I always think in the winter time,
and especially those people out there that have got shooting
interests will know that the woodland birds and game birds

(19:30):
will favor a woodland block with some conifers in it
simply because it's got some cover in the winter time,
it's got some it's got some roosting out of the
out of the awful sort of cold easterly wind that
we get in this part of the world. And and
if you've just got a purely broad leaved woodland with

(19:50):
where all the leaves are dropped off and it's the
middle of January, I always think it's it's nice to
add some whether it be something like western red ceedar
or or douglas for within within those broadleaves, because it
just just like say, provides that that bit of cover
and shelter.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
Yeah, I've always found the on shoot days and being
in the strange position that I am where I get
to wander around lots of different people's woods, those ones
that have conifers and things like pampas grass and stuff
like that right in the middle of the wood, just

(20:34):
to make sure that it's warm and a bit sheltered
and not a freezing cold thing. From sort of December
through to March. They seem to have a lot more
wildlife in them than, like you say, those those broad
leaf woodlands.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
Isn't the pampas grass there to symbolize? Why?

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Isn't Is that like the upside down pineapple?

Speaker 2 (21:03):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (21:03):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (21:04):
That's don't google it. Don't google it. Oh, you never
know what you're going to get on this podcast. That's
the best thing. You never lost me. They just don't know.

Speaker 4 (21:16):
That's an Eastern boxure thing. It's over I heard it.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, So that that was an old tell. If you're
into that sort of thing, you pump on a your
front garden, and then that indicates the neighbors were you're
open minded.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
Do you know if there's one plant that can that
I could just do without if they said it's going
to go extinct, I'd be so happy. It's pampers grass. Like,
how many times have you just sort of gone to
pick a leaf and it's cut through your finger and
you thought, what, what evil, horrible plant is this? I

(21:53):
hate it? I absolutely hate it. That's just a personal rant.
It's not really any reason for that.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
That's just then we digress from forestry.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yeah, that's sometimes it's sick. Sometimes this SAgs. So I
get the impression that you're trying not just to spread
the positives, but you're doing your bit as well for
not planting these. I think you said mono cultures earlier,

(22:26):
So that is that is plantations that I like, the
same thing all in a line, which I've seen a
fair few of those. It's the same, you know, an
oak tree space a certain amount apart and nothing else,
and that's that's it. That's so that is monoculture, if
I'm not mistaken. Yes, well, no.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
Monoculture is literally every tree is the same speci as
a tree.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
I mean, it still has benefits to nature because birds
will not be like, oh well, you know, I only
like to live next wants to a sweet chest stup
and occasionally nesting an oak. So it's not like it's
it's terrible, but it's nowhere need good.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
The only there are disadvantaged system monoculture obviously, the main
one being if you get a disease in it, it
could wipe out a whole forest block pretty quickly. We've
got the ips in your part of the world. Everyone
knows about ash dieback. You know, there's a two big
examples probably and that's the sort of the big negative

(23:30):
about it, if you're going to have one. The thing
is certainly was the main ciccret is planted, particularly in
Scotland and plant a little bit around here. Is it's
it's it's the tree that every everybody wants. It's a
really good timber tree. It's really useful, it's really strong.
It's you know, I was saying about the timber in
your house. If your house is new enough, it's likely

(23:51):
it's sicker a lot of it. The other thing a
bit sicker is it will grow anywhere. It's a it's
such an useful tree.

Speaker 4 (23:59):
It's really really good tree.

Speaker 3 (24:00):
Is much maligned, but yeah, it will grow anywhere.

Speaker 4 (24:04):
It will grow places.

Speaker 3 (24:05):
Now where the tree will grow, therefore you have to
grow it.

Speaker 4 (24:09):
It'll grow in places.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
Yeah, I think a lot of it is what because
it will grow. It'll grow in upland as well as lowland,
and there are trees that won't grow in upland places.
We are sort of forced by not in my back
garden sort of thinking to use a lot of upland
grain to plant in which the sores aren't quite so good.

Speaker 4 (24:31):
So it sort of narrows the field of what you
can plant.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
Yeah, you can't if you.

Speaker 4 (24:36):
Want, if you exactly that, so it could being what
it does. It will grow anywhere. It will grow a good.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
Form anywhere, and that's what we tend to use.

Speaker 4 (24:46):
It's a it's a pragmatic.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
See kind of planting profit, planting for convenience, planting for success.
It's like the the carrot, it wasn't wasn't the carrot
genetically put so it didn't break. They were They intentionally
bred the carrot to be resilient to not breaking up,

(25:11):
not for taste, but just so it didn't break. So
when it hits the supermarket shelf, it's still a full carrot.
So they, as far as I know, they bred it
for not for the benefit of taste and stuff like that,
for resilience. So you're saying that when you're planting. You

(25:31):
have to plant for the success of a tree rather
than necessarily the benefit to nature, especially if you've got
your arm up your back and you're have thing to
plant in uplands.

Speaker 3 (25:46):
Yeah, so probably what I say there is every tree
your plant has a benefit depends on what you're aiming for,
if that makes sense. So you're planting sicker for a timber,
you're planting other things of other things. So how can
I put it? It depends a lot of it. It depends geographically,

(26:06):
so we wouldn't where I live in a forest a Dean,
we don't really plant monocultures, and I can't remember that
I think I ever have planted a monoculture. There's one
site was totally one species. It's always mist conifer with
broad leaf in it, essentially. So, but that is because
I can because in the forest a Dean, we can

(26:28):
grow anything because the sword is that good. The conditions
are that good that you know, I live in the west,
it rains all the time. We could pretty well grow
anything we want to grow. So we do with some constraints, obviously,
but we do. Other people or other places don't have
that benefit. So you go, no, it's a pragmatic choice,
isn't it We need it. We need a timber industry,

(26:50):
we need a timber supply. I mean the alternative is
we just import everything, and that's not really an alternative
in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
It sounds like you both of you really care about
way more than just taking a chainsaw and making a
few quid out of a bitter wood. You want to
you want to put the biodiversity in and do some
good stuff for nature. Is that Is that just a

(27:20):
reflection of how you are and how certain people within
the industry are running their business, or is that a
complete movement across the board that everyone in forestry is
pushing towards or is this kind of Yeah, I'm not
saying that you're you know, you're the best in the

(27:42):
in the in the world, and you're holier than thou
and all that jazz. I'm just saying, is this an
industry wide thing where people are pushing for better nature
and better conservation planting, or are there's still a lot
of bad guys that just want to plant and see

(28:05):
it back at the end of it, well.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
We are the best in the world, so it will
take that. But and I think I think I think
the key thing is is that and I've said it
for a long time, and similar to farming, forestry tends
to be a lifestyle, a way of life. It's not

(28:29):
a nine to five job. And that doesn't matter whether
you're harvesting timber or planting trees or you're somewhere in
the middle. Speaking personally, I sort of tend to live
and breathe it a bit. Really, I'm passionate about the
industry that are working.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
It's like your job comes your personality, yeah, becomes your thing.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yeah. And and people say, well, once you've got sort
us than your blood, that's it. You sort of can't
get rid of it. And to be honest, if we
didn't love what we do, you probably wouldn't do it
because it's not an easy living to earn, not by
a long stretch. And that was partly the reason behind

(29:19):
so to wanted to come on the podcast and speak
about things, is because we just want to We want
to speak more openly and get that information out there
about what a positive industry forestry is. And it is
very maligned and it is talk down a lot, especially now.

(29:44):
Social media is such a big thing, but it's not
confined us to social media. It's the mainstream media as
well report on forestry issues pretty poorly, to be honest, whether.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
It be sort of what do you mean, report on
it poorly as in reflect on it as a negative light,
or what what's the what's the things they say? What
are the naysayers say?

Speaker 2 (30:12):
It's certainly reflected on negatively a lot of the time.
If you if you read sort of a mainstream say
newspaper report, or or you look at say the BBC website,
and occasionally there'll be a forestry issue, it's normally around

(30:32):
tree disease or something like that. Quite often those reports
aren't actually correct, which is very annoying. They've normally not
interviewed somebody who's got direct experience. They'll they'll normally go
to a a more sort of conservation organization. And I'm

(30:55):
not slat in conservation organizations at all, but if you're
if you're doing a journalistic piece on a forestry problem,
doesn't it make sense that you go to speak to
a forester to get to get the information firsthand and
get it correct? And often that isn't the case. Going

(31:16):
back to the sort of social media side of things,
a while ago, Nick and I both sort of jointly
decided that we were sort of fed up of all
the negativity and we wanted to sort of showcase the
industry that we're working and give more detail, and through
through sort of Twitter and blue Sky and these sort

(31:38):
of platforms, we try and sort of give give the
general public a bit of an insight into what we
sort of do on a day to day basis.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
You started a hashtag, didn't you.

Speaker 4 (31:50):
Yeah, yeah, positive forestry.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
I can see that's got a fair few additions to
positive forestry.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
Yeah, But I started doing it every day day and
I realized I just ain't got time to do it
every day. So I thought, well, once a week I'll
post something. But it just showcases what it is, you know.
The thing, boy, forestry is a positive thing, and I
try to vary up as much as I can. I mean,
I think, what was the last one I've done.

Speaker 4 (32:18):
I can't remember now.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
Oh, it's about finding a notary into a pond and
why that was a good thing?

Speaker 1 (32:24):
And why was that a good thing?

Speaker 3 (32:26):
Wow, I'm going to be one hundred percent honest here.
I'm not entirely sure. But the bloke I did it
for is entirely sure.

Speaker 4 (32:34):
It's basically he's it's a guy.

Speaker 3 (32:36):
He's got this a state, one of the biggest states
in Herefordshire, and he's set aside a field for a
conservation thing for wetland habitat.

Speaker 4 (32:46):
So how he explained it to me.

Speaker 3 (32:47):
Was it was I fell this tree very very accurately
into a pond or what's going to be a pond,
because he wants to see over time how that breaks
down and how that attracts insects, invertebrates, and then hey,
that then moves on to attracting the birds that he
wants to attract, and the wild fell and all that

(33:07):
kind of It was extremely interesting. But yeah, outside of
my knowledge if you want. It's one of the reasons
I really wanted to do the job actually is because
it was so interesting. It was so far outside of
plan and maintain.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
Let me tell you, trees in water is a very
good thing. Fish take, take shelter under trees. If you
if you see a big open lake, it's often not
that much around. If you've got an open lake and
it's got some reeds around the edge, and it's got
a bunch of trees falling in and some roots and stuff.

(33:41):
You'll find way more nature, way more insect life. You know,
the birds will you'll get coots and things nest up
in trees that are falling over. They'll nest high and
now nest successfully because they'll they'll nest slightly higher, more
hens and things like that, because you're if you walk past,
you'll hear them sounds like a rock being dropped from

(34:03):
a helicopter, because you'll hear a coop jump off the
nest or or something. They love. They love a tree.
It's very good for birds and nature and insects and fish.

Speaker 3 (34:16):
So, yeah, I must say I took a bit of convincing. Yeah,
I did take a bit of convincing to fellow healthy
ish oak tree into a hole. But it did convince me.
And I'm quite looking forward to seeing it because it's
not far from where we live, so we sort of
have permission to go and keep an eye on it.
And I'm actually going to talk to the guy and
get him to give me more information so I can

(34:37):
give you all you all ordervation because it really is
interesting but an example of what positive forestry is. On
the face of it, fullin and healthy ish oak tree
is not a positive thing until you look into the
reasons why we did that.

Speaker 1 (34:52):
So this is do you get any of the negativity
from people on that? Or is that all a learning
experience for most people?

Speaker 3 (35:04):
So far, all I've had is people asking questions about
whatever it was I posted. So yeah, we have know
any negative here that so far. If I'm honest, I'm
kind of waiting.

Speaker 4 (35:14):
For it.

Speaker 3 (35:15):
And I'll deal with it when it comes in a
positive way.

Speaker 1 (35:20):
Uh. Generally, I think explaining those things is the is
the one.

Speaker 4 (35:25):
Well, that's the whole point of it.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
I mean, I think a lot of it is I
don't want to say ignorance, but I can't think of
the proper word at the moment. It's people just don't
know what we do, you know, And there is people
out there and organizations out there, And I'm going to
be very careful about how I phrase this who probably

(35:47):
know a lot about forestry but have an ideological view
of it.

Speaker 1 (35:52):
And yeah, or a hidden agenda.

Speaker 3 (35:54):
Yeah, sell a book. Generally, I think.

Speaker 4 (35:59):
Not at no, that was all right, that's quite good
for it. Actually a right.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
Were verieds in a podcast? Is not even on today?
Is the des so do you forestry? Does it quite
often get miss misrepresented by the n g os, government bodies,

(36:29):
media and all that jazz does it does it often
get bad press or or poorly communicated ideas.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
You get way more of that than you'll find a
positive story.

Speaker 4 (36:42):
I mean, go through.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
BBC archives or any Guardian newspaper or any of them
really and I for every one positive thing, you'll be
one hundred that are negative.

Speaker 1 (36:57):
Maybe two. When a little while back the government, the
Labor Party was touting around I think it was two
billion trees to be planted and that was a big
and that was a big thing when that happened, How

(37:19):
were people talking about that apart from every every side
was just saying two billion as a pipe dream and
not possible, and you know, calculating how many people would
have to plant, plant how many trees and stuff like
that and sort of ripping that apart. What what was
the media perception of forestry? Did they completely misunderstand it

(37:43):
or did they roughly get what the idea was? I
mean that was obviously carbon off setting, was the was
the dream.

Speaker 3 (37:51):
I'm not sure he really knew what they meant by
tree planting. I just think they jumped on a band
wagon and went away with it, and all parties did did.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
It sounded like a sound like a nice number?

Speaker 4 (38:01):
Well, they just tried to keep you doing it.

Speaker 3 (38:03):
One said one number, and then I said, oh yeah,
but we'll do double that, and then we'll do double
that as well, and it.

Speaker 4 (38:09):
Just became ridiculous.

Speaker 3 (38:11):
What was the only thing that really sort of got
me annoying me by that is that the industry didn't
jump on it and news and we were pretty.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
You say, oh, I could do a million on my own,
not on my age, you know, we should have. We
didn't stop any contracts as selling ppe or anything like that.
You could just say, oh, you just set up a company,
say you could do a million, get the contracts for it,
close it, yeah, dust your hands.

Speaker 4 (38:41):
Off, Yeah, and we'll go in.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
Uh, well we'll go and eat in your little country
pub that you bought with the proceeds. That'd be lovely.

Speaker 4 (38:51):
Yeah, I don't think.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
I don't think. So.

Speaker 4 (38:54):
Yeah, it didn't.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
It didn't stop many of the Tory downers did it.

Speaker 3 (38:57):
So no, I mean, we just didn't make capital out
of it. When it was you know, for the probably
the only time in my life, it became mainstream news
and with thin capitalize on that.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
I don't think was the did it just show a
huge misunderstanding for the public. And also there's a I
think there's possibly a problem with years of romanticizing trees
as this as this sort of scout a jail free

(39:35):
card for we're just taught as kids that trees are
what you need to breathe. So then all this romanticizing
of trees then ends up pushing you to a point
where there's people like you with a chainsaw that are
taking the trees down. So automatically we think, well, I've
been taught all my life the trees are really nice,

(39:56):
are really good, and they take the carbon from the
atmosphere and give us oxygen and birds nest in them,
and you want to tear them down. But does that
that public perception make you like straight away enemy number
one when they don't understand forestry and you're constantly misrepresented
by media and everything else.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, there's there's definitely an element of that, And in
some ways, Calum, you're not wrong, because there is a
there is a definite relationship between the general public and trees,
and we understand that the reasons behind it, that they're
very emotive things, they're important in people's lives and they

(40:44):
serve an awful lot of functions, whether it be sort
of from a conservation point of view, by diversity, landscape enhancement.
I mean, you could draw a list up as long
as you on.

Speaker 1 (40:59):
They're a sycamore gap thing at me? How unfell about that?

Speaker 2 (41:05):
Absolutely? And this is why we're saying that there are
so many positive things behind growing, growing trees, planting trees,
and and having a forestry industry that's thriving in this
in this country. But I think the key thing is
is is woodland forestry trees will provide all those benefits.

(41:29):
But the one thing that we that that we can't
sort of that we have to hold as the most
important sort of keystone. And the whole thing is it's
it's a crop.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
And yeah, and you've got this balance between timber production
and ecology that sort of.

Speaker 2 (41:49):
Exactly bent and I And when there anybody sort of
confronts me on a site, if we've say, got a
public for path walking down the edge of the woodland
I'm particularly working in, and they say, well, well, why
you why are you felling them? Why are you felling them?

Speaker 4 (42:07):
Or what? What?

Speaker 2 (42:08):
Why can't you just leave them. And I tried to
explain to them that it's a crop, and would you
would you question your an arable farmer for combining in
a field of wheats And they go, well, no, of
course we wouldn't. And I said, well, what's the difference.
The only difference here is is the timeline. So I

(42:30):
might be felling conifers at sixty years old, I might
be felling ok at one hundred and sixty years old.
But but it's it's a harvest, it's a crop. And
and either post fell in the area naturally regenerates with
more trees if it if it's a coppice, or it's replanted,

(42:52):
or it's managed on a continuous covered system whereby you
keep going into that woodland and you, let's say eventually
you take out a small harvest on a on every
every sort of a few years and a rotation, but
you've all the while got got younger and trees coming

(43:13):
coming through to at least the ones that you've harvested.
So so yeah, but people, people do get quite passionate
about when they hear chainsaws and machines and and and
and I'm not saying that as a forest industry. I
don't want to paint ourselves as some sort of angels
because because we're definitely not. Our mistakes have been made

(43:35):
in the past, and and like all industries, it doesn't
matter what sector you're in, that there are there are
people who are very good at it, and there are
the odd ones that are rogues and do it for
the wrong reasons. But that's no different from anywhere else

(43:55):
in life.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
Oh yeah, every industry has got the same the throw
and bands in exactly exactly, so it's not like they're
unique to any any specific industry. Rogues and bandits.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
Will get everywhere exactly so. But but overall, that's that's
what we want to try and try and put across,
is that that forestry isn't just about timber production. It
comes with all the other benefits and add ons that
that that you can list, but but having a timber

(44:30):
harvest is at the heart of it.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
Can I Well, we're sort of on this subject. What
does bad practice of timber harvesting look like? What what
is the really terrible things that people are doing. Obviously,
we've established that you are the best foresters in the

(44:56):
entire world, possibly the universe. I'm not sure, or how
many trees are outside of planet Earth, but if there
is some, you are the best in the universe. But
what does what does bad look like? Well?

Speaker 2 (45:09):
I think Nick's probably best to answer this question because
he's quite topical. No, no, no, no, that's taking me the
wrong way. That's the wrong way. But I think I
think there has been a lot of media coverage in
the last twelve months about tree planting and tree planting

(45:31):
not being done properly and the results of that that
everybody's seen, and that sort of forms this negative sort
of image of the industry, and I think Nick can
sort of expand on that a whole lot better.

Speaker 3 (45:46):
Yeah, I mean you do see a lot of these
and I think they're kind of narrow really, of photos
of especially on the side of motorway and bankmers. There's
a thing in Kent when there's three hundred thousand trees
planters and they all died. How terrible this is. Yeah,
I might exaggerate the number. I can't remember what number
is now.

Speaker 2 (46:04):
And the Cambridge, the Cambridge part of the Yeah, that
it was a particularly bad example.

Speaker 3 (46:12):
But it was it was rushed and it was you know,
it's the embankments on a dual carriageway. It's not the
best soil, but they have they have to plant it,
you know, and they had a plant in such a
you know, it's rare to a small amount of time.
So yeah, I mean I find a hard blaming the
contractor on that because the contractor is going to be

(46:34):
under severe pressure to get that done. Were meant to
plant by finished planning by March thirty first, and I
never have. I regularly go past Easter into May because
we don't often start until January maybe when we should
be starting in November, for loads of little loads of
different reasons, the main one being that we can't get trees,

(46:58):
and that's because of climate changing. The trees don't go
dormant quick enough, so you can't take them out the
grain to take us some alf the plant them rushes. Okay,
kind of a vicious circle in it. We're trying to
get climbing and change, but climbate ch just stop us.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
Climb change we can we Okay, what was what was
my original question? But less side quest into that quickly
because that sounds really interesting. Climate change, you cut, so
you have to wait until trees go dormant, so it
has to be cold enough for trees to go dormant,
and then from there you can take them out of
the ground. And then plus yeah, so did it used

(47:38):
to happen in November? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (47:39):
So, I mean we've all seen it's mild now, isn't it.
We get very well, not as many frosts.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
Are the last few Novembers and stuff. It's been hardly
any for us.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
But you would generally say, as a rule of firm,
you wait for the first frost and then you can
start pulling the trees. But we don't get them anymore.
Particularly so the trees are still I haven't reached dormancy
when they used to do. We ad mitigate that slightly
by the needs of cells rather than bear root trees,

(48:11):
but they're more expensive and harder to grow, so we
don't have as many as we should or could, I
should say.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
So that's what that's one of the problems affecting planting
as quickly as you can if you had a you
have to wait till later and then and then you
so you're does that mean effectively, because spring comes pretty
pretty quick, does that mean your planting window is incredibly well.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
Where it needs to be five months is now free
it can be and god, you know, if everything doesn't
happen as it should happen, it could take even longer.

Speaker 4 (48:48):
Hence planting into the spring.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
That's like, what's that sixty percent of the time that
you used to have.

Speaker 4 (48:56):
Something like that?

Speaker 3 (48:57):
I mean, in fairness, I get very you on the whole,
it's not any worse than what it would have been
in normal beforehand. We still get you know, ten percent
is a generally accepted mortality rate which we would just
go and replant the following year. It hadn't particularly deviate

(49:17):
too much from that. There are odd exceptions, obviously there
always will be that thing in Cambridge, for instance, but
in general, so not bad.

Speaker 1 (49:28):
Let's steer back into previous question, which was what does
bad look like? So this tree planting, I think we've
discussed this a couple of times on the podcast because
I've seen some pretty horrendous things. And also the incentive
is wrong. They incentivize you to plant a big line

(49:49):
of trees, but they don't give you any incentive to
keep them alive so you can plant them. In fact,
there's all a disincentive to keep them alive so bad
actors can come along take government grant money of x
amount to plant a load of trees, and if they

(50:12):
all happen to fail in three years, they can reapply
for grant money to plant all those trees again. Is
that correct or not?

Speaker 3 (50:25):
Not so much insofar as you'd have to replant them anyway.
So anything that dies you have to. It's called beating up.
So anything that did die the next winter, you'll have
to replace them as part of it. The problem with
the grants, as I see it, is even the fact
they take a long time to come, which is a
bit of a problem. But that's you know, you've got

(50:46):
that with SFI and all the grants. That's just, you know,
something you've got to deal with. The problem I see
with them is you get quite good money for planting
the trees, but there's not half as much money to
do them subsequent maintenance the road. A lot of the
problems come with failed crops is because they weren't maintained properly,

(51:06):
rather than the planting. Bad planting is easy to see,
you know, because tubes are wonky and steaks are broken,
and the roots are out the ground and someone's put
it in upside down.

Speaker 4 (51:15):
That's bad.

Speaker 1 (51:17):
So bad looks like people taking grant money and not
doing a very good job. And then.

Speaker 4 (51:27):
What else?

Speaker 1 (51:28):
What is what else does bad forestry look like?

Speaker 3 (51:33):
Go on mat because you sent me some photos the
other day and had a steaming runt.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
I would have I would have been the bad forestry
WhatsApp chat. Maybe we'll set up a patreons channing in
our group.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
Yeah, Amy might have to do a bit of editing here. Yeah,
but forestry practice on on on the harvest inside of things,
it would be It could be a whole host of

(52:09):
different things. It could be over thin in a wood
so taking too many trees out. It could be thin
in a woodland by taking all the best trees out
and just leaving the poorest stems to grow on. It

(52:32):
could be going into a site with the wrong ground
conditions and causing horrendous sort of compaction issues, soil damage, routting.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
I mean, because there's real risks to taking those things,
like taking things out of the ground. There's real risk
to things like flood flood risks, things like that, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
I think that the main the main problem with ground
damage is the machines that we tend to use now
because of the economics are incredibly large. My harvest runs
on tracks, so the ground damage and compaction is kept

(53:24):
to a bare minimum, and we are quite sensitive about
how we use it and monitor sort of weather and
ground conditions. But if you force a large machine into
a site, especially in the winter time that's too wet,
that that ground roots, but that damage, once you've caused it,

(53:46):
takes years and years and years for basically natural processes
to rectify that. Those issues and compaction then has a
has a real negative act on the trees that you
let that that are left in the woodland because of
the damage that you cause into the root structures. So

(54:11):
you you want to try and minimize that in any way,
shape or form. You don't want to even start causing
it in the first place. And then that comes down
to correct management and doing the operation at the right
time of year and having the right machine on site
to do it, that's the right size, that that that's

(54:32):
suitable for the job that it needs to be doing.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
So it sounds like it's very much a thing that
experienced people that are along in the tooth need to
be doing, and it's not not something that people should
get into should they just want to quick back and
not care about the environment.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
There's no quick books environ now.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Yeah, yeah, I've never met anyone in forestry that wasn't
mad keen about nature. And you know, passion for fishing
or shooting or or just being in there in the
great outdoors generally tends to tends to have like minded

(55:23):
people around the industry.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
Yeah, yeah, it does, and you're going back. You're right,
it is. There's a huge level of experience required to
do a lot of these jobs because quite often harvesting
sights that taking my work as a specific example, are

(55:50):
they're quite challenging. Some of them. They're quite technical. They'll
be numerous hazards and obstacles and issues that you've got
to work around. And you've got to you've got to
really know what you're doing in terms of the trees.
That say, it's a thinning you, but you you need
to know what trees that you're selecting. You assess the trees.

(56:15):
Sometimes I will pre mark them with a spray can.
Sometimes if it's a bit more uniform and straightforward, I'll
sit on the harvester and select them as I as
I come to them and work my way through the wood.
But This is all manner of things that you have
to take into account. I mean my current site, I've

(56:37):
got power lines, public access.

Speaker 1 (56:42):
Uh, you could complicated exactly.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
I mean I've got underground services as well, a holiday
cottage on the edge of the compartment which is served
by a drive, which again is open for public access.
So you've you've got to have You've got to have experience,
you've got to have your wits about you, and and

(57:10):
you've got to know what you do.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
How long have you been doing it? This is another question?
How long have you both been at this?

Speaker 2 (57:19):
Year? Is my twenty seventh year?

Speaker 1 (57:23):
Wow? Long time? And Nick, how about yourself?

Speaker 3 (57:28):
Well, I sort of started properly working in two thousand
and so twenty five years. But I so my dad
was in it, so I sort of I was out
with him when I was like six, not working when
I was six, But I remember being out an award
with him sitting in this.

Speaker 1 (57:44):
Sorry, we're authentic. I'm pro child labor.

Speaker 4 (57:47):
I am too.

Speaker 3 (57:47):
My kids aren't weird. So I've been about it all
my life. I started sort of. I remember when I
was about fifteen, and it comes to the summer holidays
and our dad goes what you're doing for though, he said,
I know what you're doing. And I went out and
I learned how to stack timber.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
It wasn't actually an open no, it was it was a.

Speaker 4 (58:08):
Leading question and he already knew what the answer was.
But he did pay me. Well, so that's okay.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
So what what?

Speaker 1 (58:16):
What was obviously not six?

Speaker 2 (58:18):
You.

Speaker 1 (58:18):
I don't think you were stacking timber at six?

Speaker 3 (58:21):
How are we to I started properly working then, and
I was like weekends and holidays and stuff like that,
but it wasn't I'm not going to make its intensive.
I would go out for a few hours and him
and my uncle would be felling by hand with chainsaws,
and I were, you know, cross cutting making their products.
And I would go behind the two of them and

(58:44):
you know, at a safe distance and stacking all that
for us they didn't have to, and then they would
come out with a tractor. And then I did that.
So I went to college. I went to college for
a bit, and then I it was full time for
my dad for a few years before I went off.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
So between you, like fifty years of experience, do you
still really enjoy the day to day? Do you like it?
Is it really rewarding.

Speaker 4 (59:11):
I like the job.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
I like planting trees, and possibly the only one in
the world that does.

Speaker 4 (59:17):
I just I enjoy it. I think.

Speaker 3 (59:19):
The other thing is I don't we don't just plant trees,
you know when I don't really like the term tree
plant too, because we do so.

Speaker 4 (59:26):
Much more as it.

Speaker 3 (59:28):
Probably the skill, like Matt was just talking about the
skills of Irrison and Dry, the skills for a planter
is it's a very it's a more technical job than
you think it would be. It's quite difficult because you know,
to make our money, I got you know, if it's
just straight trees, then I would, you know, without a
shelter on it. I've got a plan probably fifteen hundred

(59:48):
to do, have a decent day at it. And then
aftery plan, we got to look after and so then
we got to get brush coats out and chainsaws and
spraying equipment.

Speaker 4 (59:59):
So we do a lot to different things.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
And you've got about to drop one thing and then
instantly go and pick another thing up and be able
to do that well as well. And then we do
other stuff to keep ourselves busy. Whenever we come across
Really that much I won't do for a quid so.

Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
Brilliant. I think I'll do anything for a day rate.

Speaker 4 (01:00:21):
That's what depends on the day rate.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
Now, I think my my point of view is that is, yeah,
well you do. I love the job, and Nick's hits it.
I love the job, and I often say, but I
don't like everything that surrounds it. And and and you
alluded to the fact that the job's quite physically demanding,

(01:00:44):
and it is to a certain extent, but machinery has
taken away a lot of that physical demands. I think
it from from my point of view, and I know
Nick shares this is the mental man's that are sort
of placed upon us now, and the day to day

(01:01:05):
stress of of a being self employed and running a business.
But but on top of that, there's there's quite a
lot of sort of well, for want of a better term,
forestry related stress that that comes with it as well.
And and and I think I don't think that's really

(01:01:30):
ever been recognized in the industry. And and it's it's
not it's not going any better, but on a positive note,
and Nick has been involved in this more than I have.
I think I think it's now you're starting to become

(01:01:53):
recognized what a problem that that that may be about
about the people that do work in the industry and
the effects of of stress. And and only last week
there was an Angro Forestry show in Hertfordshire and there
was a new campaign launched that was sort of spearheaded

(01:02:18):
by the Raw Forestry Society and the Forestry Contracting Association
and and con for and one or two other organizations
to try and raise the awareness of of of the
mental health issues and and hopefully bring it to the

(01:02:38):
forefront so so everybody's sort of can take it on
board and then hopefully more positively able to put some
actions in place to make the situation better for those
of us that are working in the industry.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
So what what are the what's the support network that
they've put in place? Is it like a group or
what's there? What is it?

Speaker 3 (01:03:04):
So we haven't long begun. It's probably six months ago
we started so that we came together, so just for
clarity in my in my other life, I am a
director of the Forestry contract Association as well, so I'm
doing the mental health stuff in my capacities as that
your all for each joint.

Speaker 4 (01:03:24):
It's very cheap.

Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
We do lots of stuff and.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
You get as bad as nes have you got a
U R L.

Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
We'll put it in the show nights. It'll be just fine.

Speaker 4 (01:03:39):
Anyway we went, I've lost my strength now.

Speaker 3 (01:03:41):
Yes, it basically came. It became obviously there's a problem
in mental health in forestry, particularly with contractors. I think,
what do we tend to be sat at the bottom
propping everybody else up, if you know what I mean.
So when ship rolls down hill, it's rolling pretty fast

(01:04:04):
by time it gets to us, and that's and that's
the problem with it. So this was we came together
to see what can we do be able to raise
the awareness. So we're launching a series of things. I've
been heavily involved with it, a friend of mine, you
and Lloyd Williams. He's also held me involved with it
as well as Royal Forestsite Come Forard and whoever asked.

(01:04:26):
So we launched it or I wasn't there, but we
launched it actually at the Royal Wild Show with a
questionnaire which went on the on the Royal Forest Society
website and it was basically asked you two questions, so
how do you feel and.

Speaker 4 (01:04:43):
What do you think?

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
And we've got the feedback from that, and I haven't
actually got it yet because it's taken We've had so
many responses, it's taken a long time for to get
through it. So that was the first thing we did
so I get an idea of where we are, where
things are. And then last week at the AGA Foresty
show that we sort of maybe.

Speaker 4 (01:05:05):
An official launch you would call it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:07):
I wasn't there.

Speaker 4 (01:05:07):
I couldn't make it, and.

Speaker 3 (01:05:11):
There was an animated video when it and the thing
of the video it was basically, you know, check your tone,
you know, think about how you speak to people, how
you engage with people. And this is sort of coming
back to why we are Matt. You know, I wanted

(01:05:31):
to talk to you on this podcast is forced view
is a very positive thing. It can be a very
positive thing, and the negativity around it is not doing
anyone any good. It does it impacts us in an
oblique kind of way. So don't directly impassed. But you know,
if you're constantly having negative stuff thrown at you all

(01:05:52):
the time, strong has going in the world, eventually is
it's going to you know, beat you down eventually. So
and this is sort of part of where it comes
on and part of this mental thing is I wanted
to come here and be extremely positive about it once
and show what positivity can look like. It's a fed
up of a negative bit of it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
Would you say that mental health is something that has
previously been neglected in florestry, because I mean, you only
got a look at Ricky Hatton taking his own life
only only a week ago, and the amount of the
mental health crisis, the fact that suicide kills more people

(01:06:38):
now than ever before, and how bad it is. I
assume that forestry is a largely male dominated industry, which
I don't think i'd be I'd be incorrect in assuming.

Speaker 4 (01:06:52):
No, I think all industries are.

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
It is a really important I think it's a really
important thing for us as a well as you you
as an industry to have a support network there for
people that are struggling, especially with like you say, with
the negativity. So yeah, anything anything you can do to

(01:07:17):
support that is going to be a really good thing.

Speaker 3 (01:07:19):
Well, I think we have to just acknowledge us a
problem in it, and I think that has been acknowledged
a little bit now. But it's about keeping the momentum
up now and keeping it focused, but mostly trying to
get people to.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
Are you trying to provide a support network for people.

Speaker 3 (01:07:37):
That that's the really hard thing.

Speaker 4 (01:07:41):
There are agricultural.

Speaker 3 (01:07:44):
Charities r A BI dp J Foundation I think in Wales,
but they're not for I'm not saying they're not for forestry,
but they're not and I'm not saying they should be
something for forestry, but we are working with those guys
to try and include forestry.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
Then, if you like, yeah, not necessarily at any point
in making your own when the infrastructure is alreadyact to
broaden it out to that.

Speaker 4 (01:08:12):
Yeah, if it's already there, let's use it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:13):
And they've been so willing to help out as well.
And then the other good thing about it is because
they've already been there and already done it, we don't
have to spend years making mistakes that we don't need
to make because they've already show.

Speaker 4 (01:08:28):
Us the way.

Speaker 3 (01:08:29):
And one of the other things we're doing is a
pie and pint night, so it's a trial thing. We've
done one in Wales already and we're doing another in
Whales on Friday at Breckon And basically it's a way
for people to come together and it's a relaxed atmosphere
and say what you need to say or say what
you want to say. And I'm hoping that, well, I've

(01:08:51):
had a lot of requests already that this will this
be a nationwide thing, and that's what the plan is.

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
I think it's that that is so important. One of
the things with this podcast is we've created quite a
nice little community and I'm just loving the idea that
one day we'll all we'll all meet up and we
can all talk to each other and we all know stuff.

(01:09:19):
It's it's all well and good scrolling through your phone
and seeing people that you're consuming the content of people
that exist on the internet. Actually talking to people, even
if it is just a WhatsApp group chat or it's
you know, it's the same people you're talking to on
Twitter or you're you're engaging with those. It's so good

(01:09:43):
for you. It's so much better to have a half
decent conversation, I know, the nuance of someone's life and stuff,
compared to we increasingly living a very isolated life. And
I imagine forestries, do you get to work together a
lot or you often solo out there in big machines.

(01:10:08):
I should imagine you've got your your ear defenders on
and whatnot, so you're probably not chatting and working as teams.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
But yeah, I mean only from my point of view.
I mean yesterday is it just as a pure example,
because it's easy to remember. I got to site just
gone seven o'clock, left site at half past six, and

(01:10:37):
I saw one person the whole day who was a
dog walker. Wow, And okay, I think I think you've
hit the nail on the head. Plum Is. We have phones,
and yeah, I speak to different people on the phone
during the day and all the rest of it. But
but just like agriculture and farming, the sort of labor

(01:10:59):
force in for forestry has changed. And when I first
set the business up, I had I had at various times,
I think I think the most I had at one
point I had five chainsaw operators working for me. And
you'd get together at break times and all the rest
of it and put the world to rights, and and
you bounce stuff off each other and all the rest

(01:11:20):
of it, and it gives you that bit of a
mental break. But when when with the advent of mechanization
and everybody's sort of like exactly like you say, sat
in machines lovely comfy cabs here, buds in, listening to
your podcasts, whatever you doing. But you don't have that

(01:11:44):
communication on a on a face face basis any longer.
And I think that certainly plays it plays its part.
I think as well, there is a lot of pressures
honors on a day to day basis, whether that be
weather related, that the contractors out there with that are

(01:12:08):
running a lot of machines, a lot of that machinery
is on finance and and and generally rates in forestry
for working are done on a piece rate basis, so
you're paid for output all the time. So you're you're
you've constantly got that pressure to keep working, do long hours.

(01:12:33):
And I think that all contributes into this sort of
situation that we're that that we're discussing, and and and
I think there's also the fact that it is a
very matcho male dominated generally. But I think another thing
is it's quite a traditional industry, quite sort of conservative.

(01:12:59):
With small sea it's probably not the done thing for
the men to talk about what's going on and how
they feel. And you put a brave face on it
and go, oh well it's all right. You just become
more grumpy or whatever, and this, that and the other.
But just like Lee says, and the one thing I've

(01:13:23):
found is is as as well. It's important. And I
think this is when Nick was saying about that the
sort of pine pint evenings and things. It's important to
talk to people that understand what you're on about and
apps are experiencing similar things. And forest is such a small,

(01:13:45):
sort of isolated niche industry compared to a lot of
a lot of other jobs, it's quite difficult to find
other people with that similar background experience on a day
to day because we're so sort to spread so thinly.

Speaker 1 (01:14:05):
Yeah, you start a conversation and you've got to explain
the entirety of forestry to them fully even out. What
you can do now is say, look, listen to this podcast,
this is this episode, and then we can have a
chat afterwards, and then we'll all be just fine. Okay, Right,

(01:14:26):
I have one final question for you, if you could,
if you could just sort of rattle the every everyday
Joe in the street and tell them something that's the
most misunderstood thing about forestry, what would that be?

Speaker 3 (01:14:50):
Really love to get away from the corner for bad thing,
and it's it's taught from such a young age of
commercial Forest Street is a problem, and it's not. In fact,
it's completely opposite. It's a solution to a lot of
what we've got to deal with. So yeah, if I
if I, if I could persuade everybody to realize the

(01:15:15):
conferors aren't a horrible, nasty, wildlife killing things that everyone
seems to think they are. I think that's what I would.
I think that will go a long way if you could,
if we could get people around the way of thinking
that it's you know, conifers are a good thing and

(01:15:37):
why they're a good thing, and and stop people saying
they're not.

Speaker 1 (01:15:44):
Conifer is good on a T shirt.

Speaker 3 (01:15:46):
Yeah, I'll get one of them.

Speaker 4 (01:15:49):
I'll send it.

Speaker 1 (01:15:51):
The merch stories is slowly coming together, one day at
a time.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
Well, I think, I think from my view, sorry, I
just quickly, from my point of view, I don't I
don't think I could. I'd say one thing. I'd just
invite them to come out to the the site that
I was currently working on at the time and get
them to see for themselves with their own eyes what
actually goes off.

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
And just quickly what what would that look like? What
would you you know, I come out, I've got two hours.
What what would you what would a day look like?
To show me what what the positive aspects of for.

Speaker 4 (01:16:35):
As days not a tree surge.

Speaker 1 (01:16:42):
I've got two hours. You've got to read the ropes
in two hours, you have a very important.

Speaker 2 (01:16:48):
All the tree surgeons that podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
Would be crying to their bags of money.

Speaker 2 (01:17:00):
Oh right, serious, I think I think if you were
going to bring them out to a site, you'd show
them how the job's being done and the sensitivity in
the way it was being done, that the quality of
the trees that are being left, that the diversity of

(01:17:25):
the trees across the site, and all the associated biodiversity
that goes along with those trees. But I know I'd
also show them the products that were being produced and
how it was being produced and what what sort of

(01:17:46):
give them an idea of how that that raw timber
product is going to end up in their day to
day lives as as items that that they're going to
use within their own homes, and so basically give them
a window into the whole cycle of what actually goes

(01:18:08):
on in the industry.

Speaker 1 (01:18:11):
And like you said, you've got that detail of anything
made of wood is largely taking the place of something
that could have been steel or concrete or any other
material that it's probably net worse for the environment. So
while it might be seen as bad to take a

(01:18:34):
tree out, it's not as bad as the alternative. So
overall it's a net positive.

Speaker 2 (01:18:42):
Yeah, I mean, what you've got to remember is whether
anybody likes it or not, we're experiencing climate change and
we need to decarbonize our lives. And one of the
way of decarbonizing it within the construction industry is try

(01:19:03):
and get away from carbon intensive materials like steel, like
concrete and replace those where we can with timber. Because
by using timber, that timber has come from a tree
that has grown and during its life cycle it's absorbed
the carbon and that carbon is locked up within the timber.

(01:19:27):
So if you then utilize that within a building, that
carbon is stored within that building for the lifetime of
that building. It is not out in the atmosphere, whereas
steel and concrete a port I haven't got figures, but
have put an enormous amount of carbon into the atmosphere

(01:19:49):
in their production process.

Speaker 1 (01:19:52):
So and not to forget that the wood is incredibly
recycled I.

Speaker 3 (01:19:59):
Was just going to say you can't and steal twice
kind of. I think some people have really realized is
like timber technologies come on leaps and bones in the
last certainly fifteen years. I mean, the things we can
do with timber now, we couldn't do them years ago.

Speaker 4 (01:20:14):
You know, the technologies really.

Speaker 3 (01:20:15):
I mean, there are houses in Scandinavia built entirely from wood,
and we're talking high riseres now, we're talking to ten
fifteen floors.

Speaker 4 (01:20:24):
Can't for the Louck we remember where it is at
a minute. But it's good, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (01:20:27):
Though It's you know, there'll be an element to steal
in it, maybe as a as a structure, as a foundation.
But they're made entirely of wood, and some in Canada
as well. But if you look Sweden, Denmark, Norway, all
these places, they're already starting to develop these things. And
you know, there's no reason why we can't do it

(01:20:48):
in this country which need more timber.

Speaker 1 (01:20:53):
I'll be the first to buy an ikea flat pack house.
Oh it'd be great. I just find a bit of
land and I just me and Alan Key, give me
like three hours. I'll get it knocked out. It would
be great. Dear, what would it be.

Speaker 4 (01:21:09):
Called Calum's Folly? I sort to be cool.

Speaker 1 (01:21:15):
Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
I've learned a lot. I think conifers are rent renting
a conifer to nature for sixty years to them, you know,
build a desk out of it. I can't really see

(01:21:35):
how that could be a bad thing, So you've won
me over. I'm team forest try maybe, And just thank
you for the best forestry people in the universe for
coming on to the podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:21:53):
Thanks for having.

Speaker 2 (01:21:53):
Us, no, thank you, thank you much appreciated

Speaker 4 (01:22:06):
Coun