October 10, 2025 • 59 mins
We welcomed 2 guests on this weeks episode, Cat Frampton and Richard's mother A.A Prideaux.
Cat talks with Richard and Richard about the England Peat Map released in May 2025 and the problems and errors which have designated reservoirs, walls, hedges and rocky outcroppings as deep peat. We did record for a full hour with Cat, but due to technical issues it sadly only recorded Negus and Prideaux for the last 45 minutes and then blank space where once there was informative content from Cat. Don't worry - we'll invite her back on with a more stable connection!
For the second half of this episode Richard Prideaux interviews his mother about rural life in the 60s, 70s and 80s - they talk about the number of people, nature of community, poverty, and a few anecdotes from Richard's childhood.
CountrySlide is a podcast that looks at farming, conservation and life in the British countryside.
Send us photos of your interesting trinkets that your other half wants to burn or bin as submissions to the calendar or for fun at: contact@countryslide.co.uk
Links
- Cat Frampton website
- Cat on X
- AA Prideaux website
- Subscribe on Patreon for extra content (you can cancel at any time)
- If you enjoy what we do, consider a one-off tip on Ko-fi
- CountrySlide website
- Negus' book tour dates can be found here
The Hosts
Richard Negus website
Callum McInerney-Riley website
Richard Prideaux website
Edited and Produced by Amy Green for Rural and Outdoor.
Cat talks with Richard and Richard about the England Peat Map released in May 2025 and the problems and errors which have designated reservoirs, walls, hedges and rocky outcroppings as deep peat. We did record for a full hour with Cat, but due to technical issues it sadly only recorded Negus and Prideaux for the last 45 minutes and then blank space where once there was informative content from Cat. Don't worry - we'll invite her back on with a more stable connection!
For the second half of this episode Richard Prideaux interviews his mother about rural life in the 60s, 70s and 80s - they talk about the number of people, nature of community, poverty, and a few anecdotes from Richard's childhood.
CountrySlide is a podcast that looks at farming, conservation and life in the British countryside.
Send us photos of your interesting trinkets that your other half wants to burn or bin as submissions to the calendar or for fun at: contact@countryslide.co.uk
Links
- Cat Frampton website
- Cat on X
- AA Prideaux website
- Subscribe on Patreon for extra content (you can cancel at any time)
- If you enjoy what we do, consider a one-off tip on Ko-fi
- CountrySlide website
- Negus' book tour dates can be found here
The Hosts
Richard Negus website
Callum McInerney-Riley website
Richard Prideaux website
Edited and Produced by Amy Green for Rural and Outdoor.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
So it had to happen eventually. You know, we've been
recording all of these episodes, mostly remotely, with basically a
video call software that records everyone's bit of speaking individually,
and this is the first time where it's failed part
way through an interview. So what you've got coming up
next is about fifteen minutes of what was nearly an
(00:27):
hour of talking. The guest this week, or a quarter
of a guest is Cat Frampton off of Dartmoor and Farming,
but in particular she was talking about the peat map
disaster basically with DEFRA earlier this year, So that's what
you're going to hear next. But the rest of the episode,
(00:49):
well we have to find something to do, so you'll
hear that bit after Cat cuts off, so stay tuned
for that bit. Right, we have a guest this week's
we all have to be on our best behavior. And
I'm looking at you over there in the Suffolk Lands negus.
I mean I can see you from here because pretty
much it's on top of a hill and you're flat,
(01:09):
so I can if you stand on the roof with
a flare, I could probably see you from here. But
if I was to look over to the south and
sort of slightly right a bit, I might see the
amazing and wonderful Kat Frampton of how what were you?
Great Hound Tour Farm.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
The farm is called Great Hound Tour Farm because it's
amazing and there was a little handhel farm, but it's
it's great hand farm.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
It's great because I'm.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Great, You're great. Well, I've been long following you on Twitter,
which we're still calling Twitter because no one's made the change,
really have they. And then something very interesting happened earlier
this year when Defrah released their peat map. So I
think that's what we're going to dive into first. But
first of all, do you want to could you give
(01:59):
it a bit of a a summary of who you are,
where you are and what you do, because I'll do
a crap job.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
It's that terrible thing where you go to a meeting
and you all have to say who you are in
a circle and it's awful. Okay, my name is Cat Frampton.
I am a farmer. I'm an artist. I've done a
thousand other jobs, many many other jobs over the years.
I have a small farm with organic and pasture fed
(02:30):
caws and some sheep on Dartmoor which is apparently disastrous.
I shouldn't have sheep. It's bad for me, bad for everyone, yes,
the infinite and actually got told it today by somebody.
But you know that's fine. It's fine and fine about it.
So yeah, it's all fine. At the moment, my life
(02:51):
is revolving around one of my nieces getting married on
the farm in October in the woods, which is great.
But there's work with that people, you know, there's stuff
to do. And yeah, it's not a big farm, it's
not fancy. We just have some cad, have some sheep,
do some stuff, draw some up, you know, do stuff.
(03:13):
But I'm also I know quite a lot about ecology
and that's kind of stuff. And I'm tedious when it
comes to asking awkward questions. That's who I am.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Yeah, I've been.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Asking awkward questions recently not getting answers.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
And your farm seems to be chock full of wildlife
based on everything I've seen that you've.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Posted, but it can't possibly be. I've got sheep.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, and Dartmoor, which is sheep wrecked.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Is that Jesus, it's devastated. It's a desert, absolutely awful.
All of that or terrible one percent less than one
percent is good for nature apparently depending on who you
talk to. Yes, obviously that's all complete lies.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Okay, So that is absolutely something we were talking about
on the show last week is that there seems to
be a massive disparity between what some people that can
be anything from Natural England to campaigners to the government
(04:20):
because they go and latch onto this. The engo's what
they say the state of nature is in this country
and in particular areas to what those of us on
the ground, actually in the trenches see and record. Now
you had the classic case in not so much directly
(04:43):
with the nature that you see, but with pete. And
could you talk us through what happened when it came
to the Peat survey.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yes, yes, I can do this. It's fine.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
It was positivity and okay.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
So back in May, Natural in England, who are wondrous people.
Obviously we're going to be good about them. They produced
they gave out a new map of all the pete
in England. So before now there's been maps of pete
(05:23):
and they've been geological ones done by universities, and Natural
England had done one that showed the really deep stuff
that they know about and you know, that's great. There's
pete everywhere and they have this new map and it's
going to show us really detailed. You can zoom right in,
you can zoom in, you can look at it. It
tells you how deep the pet is, it tells you
where it is, exactly the probability of it, because it's
(05:46):
all a bit maybe it's not there, but the probability
is high. You know, it's all marvelous. It's a big
purple map and you zoom in and you look at
your stuff and it's great, except it's not actually great really.
I mean, it looks great and it tells Natural England
that there is the right amount of pete, so they
(06:07):
know roughly how much pete they're supposed to be in
the country, and the map matches that amount, but the
actual peat isn't there where they Yeah, it's not good.
It's it's it's not in any way or shape or form. Well,
(06:28):
what you know, you get these maps from deaf or
from wherever, and you know they're going to be rubbish
because most of them are, and then you have to
figure them out and they're farming maps and you're just like, oh, yeah,
we'll work on this. Like the habitat maps that have
steep fields of spin and all of that kind of stuff.
But so you instantly look at it and you zoom
in on yourself because that's the bit, you know. So
I zoomed in, and I zoomed in, and I then went, no,
(06:52):
that's not Pete. That's definitely not pete on my land. Now,
my land is a dart More Hill farm, so we
have there is a lot of peat on Dartmoy. It's
a thing, you know, we're upland, but my land is
it's firstly, some of it is incredibly steep, and some
(07:13):
of it has very little soil. I mean we're talking
ten centimeters and it's incredibly granite ridden. There's deep lumps
of rock under everything. That's what we are. It's just rock,
and what's on top of it is often very sandy.
It's sandy soil. And in places there's a lot of peat.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
But not on my bit.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
And yet there there was this peat showing up on
this map as purple, and so I'd click on it
and it would say how deep it was, and I'm like,
that's not possible, that's not there. I know, that's not
that well, you know, people make mistakes. This is a
small area. So I zoomed out and then I zoomed
in on other areas and was like, oh christ, no,
(07:58):
that's really bad. The Dartmoure has these they're called tours. Yeah,
so there are big lumps of granite that's sort of
been pushed out of the earth. So the huge just
bear granite, yeah, big rocks, and on them they had
eighty seven centimeters of peat on the on the top
(08:22):
of Hatel. Now Haitel is a huge lump of rock.
I mean it's it's yeah, an enormous lump of rock,
and on the very top of it is supposed to
be eighty seven centimeters of peat. And I'm thinking, ah,
something's gone wrong badly. And so I looked further and
every tour on Dartmoor had peat on top of it.
(08:45):
And then I looked again and I saw that the
mapping can show you where the peak damage is. Because
the point is that you can then find where the
damage is and you can fix it, and we can
all make lots of money. I mean, we can all
fix the peak for the environment, not just about making
money and carbon capture, but you know, it's it's to
do with the environment. So I looked at the damaged
peak and then I realized that the damaged peach shows up.
(09:07):
It's like this gray, It's like this is bare peat,
only it's exactly matching every hedge and wall and shadow
on my part of Dartmouth from the southern Moor, so
from Ivory Bridge passed us all the way up to Ahampton.
(09:27):
So not just here, but every hedge. You can tell
what time of day. The photo that they used to
feed into their II was by the shape of the
bear peak.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
So yeah, so effect fun.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
So what does that actually do? So let's first of
all before we go and say what was the response
when you pointed out that this survey was large Bobbins,
what is actually the effect on you as a farmer?
What's the what's the so?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
What the first thing is is you look at it
and you look at the degraded pete layer or the
the it was launched with this sort of great who
are about how much pete is degraded, how much pete
is not in good nick, how much pete has the
wrong vegetation on it, because that proves it's dry, you know,
if it's got heather on it's dry, if it's got
(10:31):
bracken on it, it's not good. And they said eighty
percent of English pete it's wrong. You know it's bad.
It's being badly managed. But obviously me, I don't have it,
but I'm managing what I don't have badly. So it
firstly makes all the people that have had any peat
on their land into the bad guys because we've obviously
(10:55):
managed it badly. Because eighty percent is wrong. I mean
eighty percent might be wrong, but you can't tell from
the map. So I mean there's literally no way you
could use this map in any scientist. Just wrong. So
it made you go, oh, that's a mine. Secondly, if
you're supposed to be fixing repeat, you're not going to
(11:15):
know where to look. You're going to put the wrong
kind of money in the wrong kind of places, and
you're gonna it's just completely unworkable. Yeah, So I don't
asked if there is. I made noise on ex Twitter
whatever it is, and then I started writing to natural
on England about how wrong it was. Oh and I
(11:36):
got I got put in the Times. I was in
the Times, did an article in the Times. And then yeah, yeah,
I got nowhere.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
And so there was you got You got nothing back
from Natural England.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
They I love stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
No, I got letters back. You get stuff back because
you write to the government. They usually have to write
back because that's the rules. So I wrote to them,
and I wrote to Natural England's chief scientist, and then
I was like, it's wrong. You know what is going
on here? It's wrong. It wasn't just me, there were
other people saying it too. It's like, this is deeply,
(12:11):
badly wrong. Your modeling's off. And I got a variety
of stuff back saying no, no, it's fine, it's fit
for purpose pretty much, it's fine. We know it's not perfect.
It's not site specific. You know, you have to go
and check on your own land. And I'm like, well, well,
it's still wrong. I mean it's wrong at such a
scale that you can't be making any for policy decisions.
(12:33):
How can you do a policy decision if it's so wrong.
But apparently it's fine, And yeah, they've stopped talking to
me about it now, but it's all fine. So what
they've done so here on that more they had somehow
managed to only serve it. So what they did is
(12:54):
they've gone out surveyed the land. They'd taken all the
information they have about Pete anyway, and information they had
from say house building and places where they've done lots
of soul surveys, and then they'd tried to fill in
some gaps and then they'd input it into a computer
and they'd taken images of the land, so the satellite
kind of images, and then they'd corresponded sort of the
(13:18):
colors to Pete not Pete. I mean, I don't quite
know how they thought it would work, but they did,
and so they said this is all Pete, this is
not And then they'd tested it a bit by holding
some of the survey data back from the computer and
then going out and double checking, but saying Dartmore. They'd
only input Pete, so every single thing they'd put in
(13:42):
was positive for Pete. They'd obviously thought, well, it's Dartmoor,
it's got to be made of pete. Forgotten every other
toil type there is, and so when it came back
as yes, this is Pete, they just rolled with it.
But they'd only surveyed, literally only surveyed Pete. They hadn't
got any mineral soils at all, so it's wrong it's like, yeah,
(14:05):
it's been fun.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
So when out do you think that they knew it
was wrong?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
They definitely didn't. You can tell. You can tell that
they didn't know it was wrong because their launch media
was hilarious. So malam Cove it's renowned for being limestone pavement,
(14:32):
which is made out of limestone and is bare rock
and it's got one big bolg next to it, and
it's one of the most studied areas of nature of
the country because it has a field study center in
the middle of it. And yet according to their map
and their launch material, it was covered in deep peat
(14:53):
all over the limestone, all over the front of their
launch material. I mean, it's it's like, here, we've done
this norvelous thing and it's just.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
Not what you think.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I mean, it's just it's insane. It's all insane. The
whole thing's mad.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
It's wrong.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
And yeah, it's fine.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
It's been having a chat whilst we're sorting out some
tech issues, and whilst we were doing that, was killing
time by just scrolling through the map because I did
look at it when Cats sort of broke the story
back in May and I thought, well, this is stupid.
But having really dived into places I know, well, it
really is stupid. So this is the interactive part of
(15:32):
the podcast. If you're a listener, go and go and
look in the links for the podcast and go to
the England Pete map portal. Go to somewhere you know, well,
maybe visit three locations. I reckon two out of those
three locations are going to be wrong, aren't they judging wrong?
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Everywhere's wrong at some level. It's all wrong because you
can click through and you can look at vegetation layer,
and you can look at and the vegetation layer doesn't
match the habitat there are other layers in and they
don't they haven't crossed checked anything. And they've got water,
lots and lots of water as pete. Y it's insane.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Water that's in shade came up as peat that seems.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
To be the Yeah, water and shade and water that's
a bit rippley and oh just everything. It's just it's
just insane. But it also means that it also means
that there's some places which have PETE don't show up
because it's just a positive over the whole area, So
(16:35):
actual rare bits don't show up, so you miss them,
so they then they're built on or whatever. It's it's
all just completely insane.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
So I was trying to work out what to do
next with this, So I thought, I know what I'm
going to go and do is go and see if
my mum and ask her what life was like in
the olden days, which I'm sure she'd love to have
it described that way, the days of black and white,
when everything was in black and white, when it was
when did color start coming.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
In About the early seventies, and then people started getting
Telly's and that's what happened to our world. We started
noticing that the fields were green, and there were apples
on the trees that were this funny color called red.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
I did think that one was a kit that the
world was black. I used to ask you if the
world was black and white in the olden days. Yeah,
it seemed to seemed reasonable, you know, grown up in
a diet of all black and white films and things, a.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Diet of Yeah, that was all I ever trained you.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Is, Yeah, that was the classics, the classics.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, that's because he used to leave you in there
while I was sort of in the tech room or
the gune room or doing something you weren't supposed to
be involved in.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah, I want to nail this off quickly because this
is a story I've told on the podcast before about
was I left in a pram in the stable? Was
you went out riding?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Well not technically.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
It was a pushchair, right, It was harder to fall It.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Was harder to fall out of and there was often
Jenny the labrador in there with you who was guarding
you from all comers. And the door was closed, So
what what could go wrong? But just top half or
just bottom half of the door closed? Oh yeah, no,
the top half was open because you needed air, didn't.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I didn't need a Yeah, So I sat in a
stable in a pushchair with a labrador somewhere in there.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Yeah, But I was always on our land, so you
know when I was riding.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
You're still the closest human totally.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
I didn't actually leave the property, So I don't think
that cancer's abandonment.
Speaker 6 (18:36):
I don't think so. No, And it had no lasting
effect on me, because you still speak to me. I
have got fear of being locked in a stable that
could have come from anywhere, yeh, But.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
That's because I took the stellion out first. So you
were okay, weren't you? And you learn not to be
well resilient, didn't you self?
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Relied iron keep it out for rats?
Speaker 3 (19:02):
We never had rats?
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Good god, that's what the labrador was for. Yeah, and
the goune.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
I mean we might have been in black and white,
but we could surely see a rat in.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
The corner, misremembering this was I actually just bait for rat.
Shoot tink was left in the stable.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Not that I've ever admitted. Probably the crumbs that fell
off your rusk.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
It sounds like an euphemism.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Yeah, I know, we won't go there.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
So what Yeah, because I was born in the eighties,
nineteen nineteen eighties, and like Richard, the other Richard who
was eighteen eighties, I'm sure this nineteen yeah, yeah. What
was the the difference between the countryside then and now?
What are some things that really stand out? Because I
wasn't in the first few years of life, we're not
(19:52):
really aware of it. I just sort of remember colors
and shapes.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Because we had turned to color by then. I remember
it as being busier with rural people. There was always
I seem to remember, it's lots of people about. I mean,
we had lots of people at home. There was always
someone doing the hedges or sorting out the ditches, or
driving the tractors. You know, just so many things that
(20:21):
gradually you didn't see. You notice some more, well, I suppose,
because everything I do, from the aspect of a rider
was wherever I went, there were people who knew you
and who knew the land.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
I suppose that's that's sort of an unexpected thing of
We've got more people in the country now, the population
so much more now than it was in the nineteen eighties,
but the rural spaces are almost depopulated.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Absolutely, Yeah, And as time goes on there are more
and more and more people who don't understand the countryside,
who don't slow down, who don't anticipate. Farm machinery is
huge now, so you don't see the you know, old
Tom bimbling along on his fergie or anything like that.
(21:13):
You know that it was, and of course a hunt,
you know, we were always involved in that. So however
many days with that there was it was just the
countryside was more country, not down.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
It seemed less like it was something you drove through
to get to other places, which is what.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Yeah, it's a community and you could get the old
adage of be careful what you say to anybody because
they're related was absolutely true, and that went from village
to village to village. But there was a hole in
every village. I mean it now when i'm saying it,
and I've said this often, it sounds as I'm talking
(21:55):
about before the Second World War, But it wasn't that
long ago.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Something for like period dramas on TV and things where
if it's set in the eighties, then everything in there
on screen is definitely a nineteen eighties neon thing. But
that's not how it was. Everything you saw in the
eighties was from the seventies, sixties, and fifties. It was
from Yes, it wasn't like because it's nineteen eighty, right,
we'll wipe out everything.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Yeah, we'll throw everything away. We'll throw all the furniture
away in the dressers and all the rest of it. No,
it was amalgam of everything that was that had been,
and it just kept on being like that, and something's changed.
Another thing I just thought of this now, okay, because
(22:37):
I'm always horses, is that animals are different, and that
you could it's hard to get that across horses are different.
Breeding is different, the way they treated and the way
they act. I mean the way we rode back then,
we didn't really Some people had hard bits and stuff,
(22:59):
but you didn't have all the equipment that everybody did.
But we're still flying over hedges and doing all sorts
of things. And the cows you only really saw freezings
and somebody fancy might have jerseys.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
You know.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Down in the Southwest there were more of those. But yeah,
there were more dogs running around the road, but they
were colleges or terriers or labs.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah. More it seemed like the life led into everyone
else's more. Yes, yeah, it was less less separation, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
And you did hear you know, you did hear shooting
in whether it was your woods or someone else's, and
you'd just say, oh, what's you know? That's you knew
who it was and what they were doing. And it
wasn't anything to suddenly call the police about. I think
I've seen a man with a gun.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
What shall we do.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
It wasn't any of that. It was nicer.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I remember people cycling around with a shotgun across the
hamber bars and things that wasn't that long.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Known having them in the back of the land rover
when they I can think of several farmers who parked
like the crashed, you know, when they were going into
town and it was just because they were going into
the bank. And what about old Jonesy where he pulled
up at the shop and he in his land rover
(24:21):
and he'd got a sheep, a dead sheep. Well it
was by then that he towed all the way.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
He tied to the bumper.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
He tied it to the bumper because he was Jack Jones.
It was dead in the field, so in order to
take it back to the farm, he'd tied it to
the bumper and the farm was just through that field
and up a track. But as he got to the thing,
I think he'd run out of fags or something. Oh yeah,
because everybody smoked, that was the thing. And he decided
(24:51):
to go down to the village shop. But he forgot
about the sheep. Oh that was a mess. That was
if have come down making and of course less hots.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
But he sort of dragged the sheep across the road.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yeah, down the road, yeah, all the way and then
parked and people were just pointing. He wasn't bothered.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
I mean, yeah, what was What was it like in
terms of like shopping and just getting the day to
day things because everything you have to go to a
town to a supermarket. Net.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Yeah, well, the start in the eighties there would start
being supermarkets, but there weren't by supermarkets. It was just
a bit of the converted a building or something thinking
of stands was particular and just had a lot more
of the same stuff on the shelves and it was
(25:49):
generally it was boiling in there and still about two
people on the tills. The rest of the time, it
was the village. There was you know, the village shop
or the bakers or or that that kind of thing. Again,
it sounds like I'm really old, you know, listeners, I'm
actually not that old. Yeah, it was everything was local
(26:14):
and they could get it for you pretty easily from
you know, roles. It was at the bakers, so they
were in the next village. You did have some weird
things like there were more the vans, you know, the
grocers fans or they they were you know, the fish man,
(26:36):
and there was the guy. I'm not even I had
no preparation for this podcast, absolutely none at all, But
now it's making me think of the got used to.
They had the baker's so he would deliver loas to everybody.
Who was always the orders and and he had, you know,
all the stuff in the van, and he brought the
(26:58):
order of the to the place where we were at,
to the yard, and he I saw him do this.
I was only really quie go when we're at home.
And he went to see what the workmen were doing.
And there was a rat that was stuck in the
(27:18):
down pipe, you know, the drain pipe going into the yard,
but it was half stuck in, so the back half
of its body and its tail was sticking out, and
they were trying to do all sorts. Surprising because father
would have gone mental if he could have done anything
to break the down pipe, because they were all metal
and stuff. So he just went got hold of the
(27:40):
rat's tail, pulled it down, whacked it on the ground,
threw it over to the muck hap over there. So
everybody was sort of okay, And he went back to
the he's van picked up because the loaves weren't wrapped
or anything. Picked up the loaves. Who are doing this now?
Is it two? Is it too? This week? This is breed?
(28:03):
And yeah, And that was it to do, so I
think we'll give it a miss this week. But mother
actually canceled her orders after she was told that, which
is not surprising because you wonder what on earth it
had his hands around there. I know you should see
what producer amy.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
I should also say that we're trying to record this
podcast and my mother's dogs have now decided she's got
last rapsod terriers. And if you've got that breed, you know,
they just they decide they want to be in everything.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
It's a good job it's not on TV.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Mont Mrancy of three men in the boat fame could
have been a laster rapsode terrier, yes, fighting and then
in everything. So trying to record a podcast on the
table and there's now two dogs trying to lick the
microphone and there's a labrador here as well and wants
to be involved in everything. This is it's usual country
slide chaos.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
This is just how you were brought up.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, and that's okay. So the next thing then, because
it's something that's it's sometimes a topic of discussion on
Scribehound and other sort of rural areas that you know
what life is like for women in the countryside. Now
women in rural spaces. But this is something you and
I have discussed a few times. So I've shared these
(29:23):
things with you and you said, well, yeah, well there's
another element to it of what it was like in
the eighties or before then. So as a woman in
the countryside in the eighties, what was it like.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
It was just in relevance to the countryside. Yeah, I
mean because sort of the influence is that women need
to be more involved in things. But they were very
much involved. Often had the last say no matter you know,
if we're talking about farm or that the yard, you know,
(30:01):
with the horses and this sort of stuff. The men
might have the you know, the impression of sort of
going and going around giving out the orders, but it
would be coming back to the wife there who would
be going, no, that's not what we're doing. But they could,
you know, you could drive the tractor or drive the
land rover, or if the harvest was you know, there's
(30:25):
a bit tight with staff, they'd be doing that. As
the children were involved, you know, that was it didn't
matter whether you it was because as well as children
you were involved in everything, and the girls and the boys.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
You're expected to work on the farm. If you grew
up on a farm, weren't you.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
There was no sort of yeah, and I mean there
were certain jobs where I was going to say we
were taught how we were supposed to have people who
did it for us as well, but you know, taught
how to make things like read and do stuff with
the cheese and everything. But it rarely did it because
(31:07):
I didn't want to. But it wasn't because anybody couldn't.
I and our grandparents did it. You see. I'm thinking
of my grandma, your great grandmother, who could do all
this stuff. But they weren't that so they might have
done it, maybe because they were old. I don't know.
I'm looking back on it and thinking, but there wasn't
(31:31):
much of suppression of women that happened when I went
into the working world, right, there would be a bit
more of that, but as things were changing there. Yeah,
the conversations we've had are about how and I understand
it's difficult, but really, if you were a strong woman
(31:51):
even back then and just studg a ground and did
the thing, it was just normal.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Because you were of one of.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Six, one of six five.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah, eldest of six and five five five girls, one boy.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
So maybe I'm looking at it from that point of view.
I know mother always used to get really annoyed because
you know, back in the sixties or the seventies, she
couldn't sign things without my father having.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
You couldn't get anything. I wasn't it worse once you
were married. If you're a single woman, you could effectively
get a bank account and things once you're married.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
To double Yes, it had to be and then so
that's really where you've got don over, so to speak.
Was that your possessions became.
Speaker 5 (32:45):
Then.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
But again we're only talking about the eighties. I discovered
most of that when I divorced your father. I didn't
make that mistake again that.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah, the idea of property ownership and things was different law.
It wasn't sort of you're expected to get married and
stay together forever. Therefore things were shared. You weren't. It
wasn't set up to being divorced and having your own
independence after that.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
No, So that was where it became difficult. But if
you were, I would Women are pretty wily now, and
again I could I could say this is just not
from being a woman, but from being one of five girls.
That and I think there was so much of it.
(33:32):
Then women were constantly working out how to cover their backs,
cover their themselves. Again, I'm avoiding words thinking ahead of
just in cases and what if. My grandmother, after whom
I was named, she would always say to the girls,
(33:55):
now you make sure you put money elsewhere. You don't
husband about husbands that you at that point you had
no intention of.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
It, just accepted you have to have a husband, you
have to. But you also have to assume that it's
all going to go wrong at some point as well.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Yes, so you've got it was a fond yes, which
is it sounds odd now, but that's kind of how
it was. And it was just sort of understood from
that point of view, and most had no intention of
that's that's not going into it thinking we'll split up.
But no, but that a lot of women as well,
(34:35):
they allowed things to happen. You know. I think of
several relationships where there was trouble at mill, so to speak,
but they just pretended it wasn't happening.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Yeah, because it was. It was it's easier to not
rock the boat.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Yes, yeah, yeah, that's right. But my point of view
is you have a miserable life thing, you know, I'd
rather be this trappy independent that's how I am.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
What's that's how we describe you.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
I don't know how you describe expect it's not in
glowing terms.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
So what about as well, like poverty and rural poverty,
because it always seems like rural poverty doesn't look like
urban poverty and certainly not now because but it was
easier to be poor in the countryside then that it
is now almost.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Yeah, and it was less noticed noticeable as being poor.
What a mean is because going back to the community
spirit and everybody being related to each other or you know,
they'd come up from the same village school. Some of
us went into schools elsewhere once we reached the early
(35:52):
teens or wherever. But because people stayed in the same communities,
and that the grandparents are still there and the great
grandparents are in the graveyard, et cetera, et cetera. So
you knew who it was obvious who perhaps weren't so
well off. There was there was still a lot of
(36:12):
generationally poor, yeah, but there was so because there was
a community, people would help so and that's you know,
you get onto the politics of it. But even with
employment laws, it was women then who perhaps weren't given
much money from possibly feckless husbands who didn't earn as
(36:38):
much or give them.
Speaker 6 (36:39):
As well drank a Friday night in the villages, not
obviously not everybody, but some of the villages.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
But then the woman would be given jobs, as in
she could work at the vicarage, or you know she worked,
would work at our house, or the be given jobs
because you didn't the employment. This law, the law employment
laws that put in supposally to protect people also has
eliminated over the years the possibility of paying the older
(37:10):
guy the pension or et cetera to work in the
garden or put in a few.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Days to raise the initial barrier of employment so high
that you can't do it informally to help people that yeah,
because it's just so.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Then they had to turn the face to the state
and then for whatever that was. So, yes, there were
there was poverty, but there was also a lot of help.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
We might have thought, yes, well.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
He's always robing the place or he's doing this, but no,
we'll we'll give you that off. Or because there was
a lot of food about because it was rural, then
that could be given and help with the with the fire,
or you know all of that sort of stuff. So
(37:52):
I'm not disputing that there wasn't poverty, but even rich
people were poor. You know, it wasn't you know the
show the pictures of frost on the inside of windows,
Well we have that we had a nice big house
and all the rest of it. There was frost on
the inside of the windows.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Because it was after the Second World War, was when
the it was the downturn of the gentry kind of
in terms of landed land meant money.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Yeah, because the text they the Jesus out of them
in the fifties and the sixties.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
And still haven't recovered from the First World or really
haven't they.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
No, it had gone on and then there was fewer
people who wanted to work on the land, so you know,
the family were working on the land or you know,
so many changes that they've gone to the towns, to
the cities to work in different places. And gradually as
(38:53):
you went up through the six when I think like
being a sixes and being a really young kid, and
it just seemed to be so many people about, and
then the seventies you noticed it a bit different.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
And so if the land you could still be the
sort of the squire in the eighties, but you were
using stuff that you bought in the fifties.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Oh totally. I know.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
They were living out their life with those possessions. Yes,
so once they'd gone, everything was gone.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Yeah, yeah, there was the if you looked at it closely,
there might have been a lot of buildings, but how
posh were the buildings And you know again with the
animals everything. The lights were rubbish in any of the
barns or the stables, so everything was still done in
(39:46):
the dark. I'm still tight, aren't it? Because even to
this day it's a bit it was embedded in me
that when I'm out at five doing horses or late
at night, we've got huge amounts of stable lights and
will I turn them on? No, I won't clupturing around
with your head talk on absolutely, because.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
One step up from a candle lantern.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Because that was you know, obviously, when I'm saying this
is why you think it was in black and white.
It was changing during your youth, wasn't it.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
It was? And that's things like land us seem to
be changing. That's always marked the point where all the
fields got bigger or hedges were ripped out, and things
like that could you see that happening in real time?
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Yes, And it was really depressing because.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
We're people talking about it.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
All the time, but it was it was like talking
about stuff the government and whatever. Do now you can
talk about it till you blue in the face, you see.
I myself certainly, I can remember my grandparents get so
angry because again, because we've always been there, you knew where.
It sounds so stupid, but we knew where all the
nests were. It hadn't changed that much since Lorri Lee.
(40:54):
We knew where they were. The trees were there. That
was the tree or that was a tree where your
grandfather did whatever.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
That's what I think. That's where you see the owls here.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Yes, and that family, that family of barn owls have
been coming back here and all of that, and then
that it's at the same time in the small towns,
they were demolishing the gorgeous black and white buildings and
the stone buildings and putting up those concrete contraptions.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
And they were so proud of it, weren't they one
This wonderful new, wonderful quarter story car park slash shopping center.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
I can't just keep saying it was the labor government,
but Bazarrely it was.
Speaker 5 (41:34):
Yeah, and there were there were just hedges were just
being ripped out, and you know, the equipment was getting
that bit bigger, and you didn't see that there were
started building more a few more houses by the time
we got into the seventies.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
So some farmer who son had probably gone into the
town to work in the work in the sit anywhere,
but he doesn't want to work on the farm, so
then he's going to die, so he sold it top
which has been repeated over time. And you it just
changed and then and the village schools were getting closed,
(42:12):
so the kids we were sent sent to a different
village school before I had to go to a girls' school.
That's another story. And because I think in that village
we had three or four shops and then it went
(42:32):
down to two. And by the time we were getting
into the eighties, I don't think there's one in there.
There might have been one, but they weren't really selling much.
And I think they had the same stock that they
had in the fifties. From what you could see, it
was in a dark corner. So yeah, it seemed to
(42:53):
just change really rapidly. And then people were upset, were complain,
would do petitions, would do the same things to do now.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Is just all I talked about at a parish level,
and you might write to the county newspaper.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Yeah, they'd get people to be in the village hall,
the community whatever, and by then village halls, whereas people
would meet in the village school and then that was
the village hall at the same time. And by the
time it was to get into the eighties, the village
schools had now moved to somewhere else and the school
was still there, the old Victorian thing, but that was
(43:33):
just the village hall community center, and they'd go in
there and I could you'd hear the same people that shouting.
Father would be mother would stand up there because she
was in am drama as well, so she'd love to
take the stage. You know, they're all very nearly going
to turn around and do something about it if something
doesn't happen. But it didn't matter. They're just still leveled everywhere,
(43:58):
and fewer cows, and so it goes on progress apparently,
so it's and then I'm trying to think when it
would be then I suppose it would be getting this
is again I am by no means any knowledge of
(44:19):
this expert knowledge. But by there were the milk. There
was a milk marketing board and everything started getting put
out towards early nine.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
If you got to feed Europe not the UK.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Now, yeah, we had to worry about everybody else, which
we only ever heard about news in Africa or somewhere
else about four weeks later as a corner thing in
the Daily Express.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
And then like Live Aid and things made it up.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
Oh god, let's go and look at some starving people
elsewhere whoa even back then they will going what about
the starving people back here whose factors have closed down?
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Because that was the other thing. A lot of the focus
in the eighties was on the those industrial urban areas
that were being all the closes and things that were
massively effecting that and everything, because that was all delay
from trade union action in the seventies, which no one
ever sort of links the two together. Like the eighties
everything was going fired and then suddenly everything was closed down.
Was when you look at that timeline, it's that stuff
(45:18):
have been crapped since about nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Oh yeah, they had you know, and everybody around, Oh
I suppose you had two opposing views. I actually loved
Margaret Thatcher. My father hated.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
Her because you were a woman in the eighties.
Speaker 3 (45:33):
Yes, in my mind she opened up so many doors,
forms and possibilities. And yet the seventies was just one long,
horrible decade of power cuts and petrol shortages and sugar shortages,
which was just when none of us could have sugar,
(45:53):
and then so many things had shut down. I was
working at a place where they advertised, This must have
been in the mid eighties. They advertised for lorry drivers,
and they because people phoned in just ring this number,
and it had been put in the local paper, in
a little thing, and the phone never stopped. In the end,
(46:16):
they unplugged the phone because it was horrible listening to
poor guys who were saying, I've just been laid off. Yeah,
and there was They could have been the best qualified
person in the world, but they couldn't.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
People seem to forget that an economy is people, or
it used to be. Yeah, that all of these things,
I think this are the markets have crashed. It's not
the markets have crashed. It's that all these people have
lost their jobs, all these people have lost it. It's
all these so.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Then they weren't spending the money because they didn't have
any to spend, and then so the welfare bills go.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Up, and we've never really recovered from it. Sort of,
it seemed like in the nineties it was upswing, but
then welfare spendings just carried on going up and up
every year thereafter.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Well.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
It also in the eighties was the decade of the yuppies,
which is not this thing about going into business and
having more freedom.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
You weren't just going to work for either a civil
service or a big firm. There was like a third
option of working for an American company that happened to
have an office ear or.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
Yeah, and to be I can't think. The only word
I could think of, which doesn't really do it is jazzier,
you know, because you weren't working for the it was brilliant.
All those stuff I said was brilliant work. Yes, because
and fashion has changed as well. So it's probably you
(47:40):
saying about the American companies because the americanization the TV
when it had changed to color, you know, we were
saying things that so and there was the horrible things
then about closing the minds. Even though Harold Wilson closed
way more than but there was. There were miners, you know,
(48:03):
in the few villages to us, and so are the
ones who are the same age asuls who were supposed
to go into the mines following the dad, granddad, all
the rest, and they didn't want to so but they
were all living in the same villages. And for anybody,
any young guy, to say I don't want to go
down the mind dad.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Was met.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
They had to leave their entire community because the older
generations wanted to keep it together. Not Christian has a
tribal tradition, yes, yeah, but in order to leave that,
because everything depended on the mine, they had to leave, which.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Had it in Cornwall. Like if you if you're you
worked in clay, in the clay industry or something like that,
and you wanted to go fishing, you wanted to go
into fishing, you want to go into another sort of
really that you were even though you weren't leaving the
area you doing basically another hard physical job.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
You would changed tribes.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
You're almost like a tribal traitor almost, yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
So the only answer was to conform or leave. And
it's I don't know, it's I okay, it sounds really sad.
It wasn't because I got through. It's all an adverse.
It depends on how you viewed it as well. Because
(49:28):
we you don't have to do the same as your parents,
and you can just have a reason to debate.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
It was the first massive economic disruption, not the first one,
but the first one in that century that had taken
you away from working for bigger institutions because everything else
had been increased institutionalization from the Victorian period all the
way through and then post war welfare state, NHS on Sunday,
(49:58):
nationalization of railways, all of those. You're actually you'd gone
from less private industry to more nationalized industry. Yes, so
the eighties with the denationalization of that, it was undoing
only about thirty five years because you starting to reverse
the trend. But now it seems to be that there's
(50:22):
more back, almost a nationalization, because you see how many
people work for the NHS. Now, how many people work
for these big employers, are the state in one for
or independent companies who have contracts servicing the state. Yeah,
as well, we seem to be back at a higher
level of state employment or state dependency than it was
(50:44):
by the end of the eighties or middle of the eighties,
and the rural space is probably one of the few
that's there's booking that trend a little bit.
Speaker 3 (50:54):
But yeah, and they're trying to break that, aren't they now.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Yeah, it does seem.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
Because there's still this even all. That's the things that
I've said, And we had all of the stories and
people who lived in cities and lived in the streets
of the cities they all had stories as well, but
they knocked all their places down and filled them with
warehouses up and things. So it was still a big
community and often I mean, we've never really left it,
(51:23):
have we. That kind of community. It's familiar.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
And I was thinking about this. I was in London
yesterday and in the City of London as wandering around
and poultry that's cheapside hang on, I remember about this
is this used to be the poorest of the poor community. Yeah, totally,
And this was where people live, you know, are stacked
on top of each other almost and now it's just
(51:48):
city and big and boozy lunches. So that erosion of
people and I mean, if you drop race out of
it entirely, just you look at it entirely a cultural level.
This indigenous idea of people in a place, people working
and living in a place with other people who work
and live in that place, that's being eroded.
Speaker 3 (52:10):
Yeah, because the community was kinder. As I said before,
there'll be all sorts of rouse and arguments that went
sometimes through generations, but in the end, really they would
even all go to the funeral, which it sounds really stupid,
but it's still an accepted community. I think. Also what's
(52:32):
been badly lost is the lack of which is one
of the things I love you doing on this podcast
is almost reminding people teaching people about rural history because
if the mister generation or two out with that, the
think that they've got to learn it again, as if
all fancy people used to do this, But there were
(52:54):
living people who.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
And it was not that long ago. No, But the
rate of change has been so rapid that it does
feel like you're talking about the nineteenth century UNOS ninety five.
Speaker 3 (53:09):
As you know, we're saying it's sort of talked sisters
or whoever, you know, people we know that were clearly
around then. But saying around then just is weird because
the age of people has changed as well, because we're
not going around on zimmer frames or anything like that.
You're still doing exactly the same thing, which happens I
(53:31):
think more in rural communities that I was when I
was a kid. I'm still You watched me the other
day being dragged around by seventeen to young horse, and
I was determined not to let go of that leader.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
We're just going to watch what happened, no matter how
it turned out.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
Amy, get the camera because this could be.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
Gone, recalled.
Speaker 6 (53:50):
This someone's going to want to watch this posterity and
hearing the use words that I haven't used on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (53:56):
But I won didn't fight in arena. I mean I
did that when I was six, so they were just
smaller than that was all.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
So it's this this thing of well you said, like,
you know, remembering back then. It's like if you say, oh,
rural Britain in the eighties, anyone who lived and worked
there knows what you mean. Yes, which is interesting in
itself because you I can't say, or you know, rural
Britain in between twenty ten and twenty twenty, because it's
just all sort of me We don't have that distinction
(54:25):
between decades in the way we used to the last
twenty five years is pretty much the same, whereas nineteen
ninety to two thousand is distinct from nineteen eighty to
nineteen ninety. It feels like you've got these epochal blocks,
but now it's just the sludge that we have the
sledge of time.
Speaker 3 (54:44):
Yeah, of course a story or something like that. Is
that's where such a thing used to be. That's where
the field used to be. That's where the market used
to be.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
Yeah, you're talking in the past tens.
Speaker 3 (54:56):
That's where that you know, you're say, in the Southwest,
which knew every inch of it. That's where such a
thing used to be. Look, it's all covered in houses
that for some reason have got blue glass in them. Yeah,
and the back to the sixties concrete thing. But now
it's I don't know what they call it biodegradable.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
I think it's It is kind of a lost time
period as well, because no one was writing histories about
the seventies and eighties at the time. No one was
making notes thinking this is all going to go away
very quickly.
Speaker 3 (55:25):
No, they were thinking, oh, we're getting modern.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
So is this now I was talking about this now?
Is that like someone in the eighties researching the inter
war years, because it's actually about the same time period.
It's about forty forty five years.
Speaker 3 (55:37):
Except the kind of in time wise, but in familiarity
and the surroundings, you'd be able to say, you see
that building there.
Speaker 1 (55:45):
Yes, that's the one.
Speaker 3 (55:47):
Yeah, the one is where everybody is going in that
is yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
Yeah, because I found a photo months ago for something else.
I think I thought about it on the podcast, but
I found a photo of Mike Christenink you're Chris thank
and it's like that. Well, first all, everything's like the
orange brown, Yeah, various shades of orange and brown.
Speaker 3 (56:09):
And tobacco yellow.
Speaker 1 (56:11):
There's nothing there that's familiar to now, no other than fact, well,
these are humans and that's electricity.
Speaker 3 (56:16):
And most of them are dead.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
Yeah, but it'd be very disorienting to go back to
that point, whereas if you showed me a photo from
two thousand and five, it would feel much more familiar. Yeah,
lack of phones would be the difference, I know.
Speaker 3 (56:29):
But and more yeah, as you say, more smoking, more drinking.
Speaker 1 (56:34):
So there is almost a point now where we should
be recording the history of aural Britain in the seventies, eighties.
Speaker 3 (56:41):
Nineties, I should write more stories.
Speaker 1 (56:43):
You should write more stories. So you have your website
Aprido dot com. Yeah, it will be the links of
the show notes. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (56:53):
It's written back one thousand years though. I'm very good
at ancient.
Speaker 1 (56:56):
You're kind of a family historian, aren't you. Yes, which
means you sort of getting phone calls and emails from
people in Australia.
Speaker 3 (57:03):
And New Zealand and the second cousin.
Speaker 1 (57:05):
Yeah, all the cousin Jack's who sided off overseas and
descendants like well I found this and this that, I
found your website and it's can you tell me about everything? Yeah,
John Brido of ivy Bridge and sixteen whatever.
Speaker 3 (57:21):
But sadly sometimes I do answer and sometimes I don't.
But sadly I'm thinking in my head now he must
have been a brother too.
Speaker 1 (57:28):
Yeah, because we worked out. There's when I went to
see Roger Morgan Grenville for something in this summer and
sat there at his table working out. It's like when
you go back to Grenville and there was Bevill Grenville.
Speaker 3 (57:40):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's family is married.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
It's this weird thing. Is that why you can trace
your family history back so far? It's like no, because
one woman. We can leaking together all these things and
now that that other people can trace their family history
because of your stupid website.
Speaker 3 (57:55):
And book, and they just think the internet have sorted
it out.
Speaker 1 (57:58):
Yeah, because you said we find you find your on
listen on other people's things of you know, the the AA.
Prido says this about it.
Speaker 3 (58:05):
It's like I'm some dead academic. Yeah, I'm still here
towing horses running the school.
Speaker 1 (58:10):
Yeah. I remember once on Twitter somebody arguing with me
about something in family history. For some reading, this is
stupid argument and they quoted your thing to me. What
he Prido says, like, I can bring.
Speaker 3 (58:20):
Her and ask her, you know right now, I know,
and you don't want to get her involved.
Speaker 1 (58:28):
So if you are one of like the four hundred
and fifty people in the UK who are currently descendants
in our family line, you can buy her books there.
You're on all book platforms. But yeah, thank you for
recording this. This is unexpected recording and I kind of
hijacked you in between.
Speaker 3 (58:44):
Yeah, because I've still got courses to school.
Speaker 2 (58:47):
You have.
Speaker 1 (58:48):
Yeah, and it's now it's all the good lights gone
and it's gotten windy.
Speaker 3 (58:51):
Now I'll go and get my head talks.
Speaker 1 (58:53):
Yeah, you can go and do that. Thank you, listeners,
Thank you for a disjointed episode. This is this is
the entire show. No I have to show this week,
but it's from doing our best. Back next week. Byem
So it had to happen eventually. You know, we've been
recording all of these episodes, mostly remotely, with basically a
video call software that records everyone's bit of speaking individually,
and this is the first time where it's failed part
way through an interview. So what you've got coming up
next is about fifteen minutes of what was nearly an
(00:27):
hour of talking. The guest this week, or a quarter
of a guest is Cat Frampton off of Dartmoor and Farming,
but in particular she was talking about the peat map
disaster basically with DEFRA earlier this year, So that's what
you're going to hear next. But the rest of the episode,
(00:49):
well we have to find something to do, so you'll
hear that bit after Cat cuts off, so stay tuned
for that bit. Right, we have a guest this week's
we all have to be on our best behavior. And
I'm looking at you over there in the Suffolk Lands negus.
I mean I can see you from here because pretty
much it's on top of a hill and you're flat,
(01:09):
so I can if you stand on the roof with
a flare, I could probably see you from here. But
if I was to look over to the south and
sort of slightly right a bit, I might see the
amazing and wonderful Kat Frampton of how what were you?
Great Hound Tour Farm.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
The farm is called Great Hound Tour Farm because it's
amazing and there was a little handhel farm, but it's
it's great hand farm.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
It's great because I'm.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Great, You're great. Well, I've been long following you on Twitter,
which we're still calling Twitter because no one's made the change,
really have they. And then something very interesting happened earlier
this year when Defrah released their peat map. So I
think that's what we're going to dive into first. But
first of all, do you want to could you give
(01:59):
it a bit of a a summary of who you are,
where you are and what you do, because I'll do
a crap job.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
It's that terrible thing where you go to a meeting
and you all have to say who you are in
a circle and it's awful. Okay, my name is Cat Frampton.
I am a farmer. I'm an artist. I've done a
thousand other jobs, many many other jobs over the years.
I have a small farm with organic and pasture fed
(02:30):
caws and some sheep on Dartmoor which is apparently disastrous.
I shouldn't have sheep. It's bad for me, bad for everyone, yes,
the infinite and actually got told it today by somebody.
But you know that's fine. It's fine and fine about it.
So yeah, it's all fine. At the moment, my life
(02:51):
is revolving around one of my nieces getting married on
the farm in October in the woods, which is great.
But there's work with that people, you know, there's stuff
to do. And yeah, it's not a big farm, it's
not fancy. We just have some cad, have some sheep,
do some stuff, draw some up, you know, do stuff.
(03:13):
But I'm also I know quite a lot about ecology
and that's kind of stuff. And I'm tedious when it
comes to asking awkward questions. That's who I am.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Yeah, I've been.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Asking awkward questions recently not getting answers.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
And your farm seems to be chock full of wildlife
based on everything I've seen that you've.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Posted, but it can't possibly be. I've got sheep.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, and Dartmoor, which is sheep wrecked.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Is that Jesus, it's devastated. It's a desert, absolutely awful.
All of that or terrible one percent less than one
percent is good for nature apparently depending on who you
talk to. Yes, obviously that's all complete lies.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Okay, So that is absolutely something we were talking about
on the show last week is that there seems to
be a massive disparity between what some people that can
be anything from Natural England to campaigners to the government
(04:20):
because they go and latch onto this. The engo's what
they say the state of nature is in this country
and in particular areas to what those of us on
the ground, actually in the trenches see and record. Now
you had the classic case in not so much directly
(04:43):
with the nature that you see, but with pete. And
could you talk us through what happened when it came
to the Peat survey.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yes, yes, I can do this. It's fine.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
It was positivity and okay.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
So back in May, Natural in England, who are wondrous people.
Obviously we're going to be good about them. They produced
they gave out a new map of all the pete
in England. So before now there's been maps of pete
(05:23):
and they've been geological ones done by universities, and Natural
England had done one that showed the really deep stuff
that they know about and you know, that's great. There's
pete everywhere and they have this new map and it's
going to show us really detailed. You can zoom right in,
you can zoom in, you can look at it. It
tells you how deep the pet is, it tells you
where it is, exactly the probability of it, because it's
(05:46):
all a bit maybe it's not there, but the probability
is high. You know, it's all marvelous. It's a big
purple map and you zoom in and you look at
your stuff and it's great, except it's not actually great really.
I mean, it looks great and it tells Natural England
that there is the right amount of pete, so they
(06:07):
know roughly how much pete they're supposed to be in
the country, and the map matches that amount, but the
actual peat isn't there where they Yeah, it's not good.
It's it's it's not in any way or shape or form. Well,
(06:28):
what you know, you get these maps from deaf or
from wherever, and you know they're going to be rubbish
because most of them are, and then you have to
figure them out and they're farming maps and you're just like, oh, yeah,
we'll work on this. Like the habitat maps that have
steep fields of spin and all of that kind of stuff.
But so you instantly look at it and you zoom
in on yourself because that's the bit, you know. So
I zoomed in, and I zoomed in, and I then went, no,
(06:52):
that's not Pete. That's definitely not pete on my land. Now,
my land is a dart More Hill farm, so we
have there is a lot of peat on Dartmoy. It's
a thing, you know, we're upland, but my land is
it's firstly, some of it is incredibly steep, and some
(07:13):
of it has very little soil. I mean we're talking
ten centimeters and it's incredibly granite ridden. There's deep lumps
of rock under everything. That's what we are. It's just rock,
and what's on top of it is often very sandy.
It's sandy soil. And in places there's a lot of peat.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
But not on my bit.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
And yet there there was this peat showing up on
this map as purple, and so I'd click on it
and it would say how deep it was, and I'm like,
that's not possible, that's not there. I know, that's not
that well, you know, people make mistakes. This is a
small area. So I zoomed out and then I zoomed
in on other areas and was like, oh christ, no,
(07:58):
that's really bad. The Dartmoure has these they're called tours. Yeah,
so there are big lumps of granite that's sort of
been pushed out of the earth. So the huge just
bear granite, yeah, big rocks, and on them they had
eighty seven centimeters of peat on the on the top
(08:22):
of Hatel. Now Haitel is a huge lump of rock.
I mean it's it's yeah, an enormous lump of rock,
and on the very top of it is supposed to
be eighty seven centimeters of peat. And I'm thinking, ah,
something's gone wrong badly. And so I looked further and
every tour on Dartmoor had peat on top of it.
(08:45):
And then I looked again and I saw that the
mapping can show you where the peak damage is. Because
the point is that you can then find where the
damage is and you can fix it, and we can
all make lots of money. I mean, we can all
fix the peak for the environment, not just about making
money and carbon capture, but you know, it's it's to
do with the environment. So I looked at the damaged
peak and then I realized that the damaged peach shows up.
(09:07):
It's like this gray, It's like this is bare peat,
only it's exactly matching every hedge and wall and shadow
on my part of Dartmouth from the southern Moor, so
from Ivory Bridge passed us all the way up to Ahampton.
(09:27):
So not just here, but every hedge. You can tell
what time of day. The photo that they used to
feed into their II was by the shape of the
bear peak.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
So yeah, so effect fun.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
So what does that actually do? So let's first of
all before we go and say what was the response
when you pointed out that this survey was large Bobbins,
what is actually the effect on you as a farmer?
What's the what's the so?
Speaker 2 (10:10):
What the first thing is is you look at it
and you look at the degraded pete layer or the
the it was launched with this sort of great who
are about how much pete is degraded, how much pete
is not in good nick, how much pete has the
wrong vegetation on it, because that proves it's dry, you know,
if it's got heather on it's dry, if it's got
(10:31):
bracken on it, it's not good. And they said eighty
percent of English pete it's wrong. You know it's bad.
It's being badly managed. But obviously me, I don't have it,
but I'm managing what I don't have badly. So it
firstly makes all the people that have had any peat
on their land into the bad guys because we've obviously
(10:55):
managed it badly. Because eighty percent is wrong. I mean
eighty percent might be wrong, but you can't tell from
the map. So I mean there's literally no way you
could use this map in any scientist. Just wrong. So
it made you go, oh, that's a mine. Secondly, if
you're supposed to be fixing repeat, you're not going to
(11:15):
know where to look. You're going to put the wrong
kind of money in the wrong kind of places, and
you're gonna it's just completely unworkable. Yeah, So I don't
asked if there is. I made noise on ex Twitter
whatever it is, and then I started writing to natural
on England about how wrong it was. Oh and I
(11:36):
got I got put in the Times. I was in
the Times, did an article in the Times. And then yeah, yeah,
I got nowhere.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
And so there was you got You got nothing back
from Natural England.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
They I love stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
No, I got letters back. You get stuff back because
you write to the government. They usually have to write
back because that's the rules. So I wrote to them,
and I wrote to Natural England's chief scientist, and then
I was like, it's wrong. You know what is going
on here? It's wrong. It wasn't just me, there were
other people saying it too. It's like, this is deeply,
(12:11):
badly wrong. Your modeling's off. And I got a variety
of stuff back saying no, no, it's fine, it's fit
for purpose pretty much, it's fine. We know it's not perfect.
It's not site specific. You know, you have to go
and check on your own land. And I'm like, well, well,
it's still wrong. I mean it's wrong at such a
scale that you can't be making any for policy decisions.
(12:33):
How can you do a policy decision if it's so wrong.
But apparently it's fine, And yeah, they've stopped talking to
me about it now, but it's all fine. So what
they've done so here on that more they had somehow
managed to only serve it. So what they did is
(12:54):
they've gone out surveyed the land. They'd taken all the
information they have about Pete anyway, and information they had
from say house building and places where they've done lots
of soul surveys, and then they'd tried to fill in
some gaps and then they'd input it into a computer
and they'd taken images of the land, so the satellite
kind of images, and then they'd corresponded sort of the
(13:18):
colors to Pete not Pete. I mean, I don't quite
know how they thought it would work, but they did,
and so they said this is all Pete, this is
not And then they'd tested it a bit by holding
some of the survey data back from the computer and
then going out and double checking, but saying Dartmore. They'd
only input Pete, so every single thing they'd put in
(13:42):
was positive for Pete. They'd obviously thought, well, it's Dartmoor,
it's got to be made of pete. Forgotten every other
toil type there is, and so when it came back
as yes, this is Pete, they just rolled with it.
But they'd only surveyed, literally only surveyed Pete. They hadn't
got any mineral soils at all, so it's wrong it's like, yeah,
(14:05):
it's been fun.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
So when out do you think that they knew it
was wrong?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
They definitely didn't. You can tell. You can tell that
they didn't know it was wrong because their launch media
was hilarious. So malam Cove it's renowned for being limestone pavement,
(14:32):
which is made out of limestone and is bare rock
and it's got one big bolg next to it, and
it's one of the most studied areas of nature of
the country because it has a field study center in
the middle of it. And yet according to their map
and their launch material, it was covered in deep peat
(14:53):
all over the limestone, all over the front of their
launch material. I mean, it's it's like, here, we've done
this norvelous thing and it's just.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
Not what you think.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I mean, it's just it's insane. It's all insane. The
whole thing's mad.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
It's wrong.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
And yeah, it's fine.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
It's been having a chat whilst we're sorting out some
tech issues, and whilst we were doing that, was killing
time by just scrolling through the map because I did
look at it when Cats sort of broke the story
back in May and I thought, well, this is stupid.
But having really dived into places I know, well, it
really is stupid. So this is the interactive part of
(15:32):
the podcast. If you're a listener, go and go and
look in the links for the podcast and go to
the England Pete map portal. Go to somewhere you know, well,
maybe visit three locations. I reckon two out of those
three locations are going to be wrong, aren't they judging wrong?
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Everywhere's wrong at some level. It's all wrong because you
can click through and you can look at vegetation layer,
and you can look at and the vegetation layer doesn't
match the habitat there are other layers in and they
don't they haven't crossed checked anything. And they've got water,
lots and lots of water as pete. Y it's insane.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Water that's in shade came up as peat that seems.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
To be the Yeah, water and shade and water that's
a bit rippley and oh just everything. It's just it's
just insane. But it also means that it also means
that there's some places which have PETE don't show up
because it's just a positive over the whole area, So
(16:35):
actual rare bits don't show up, so you miss them,
so they then they're built on or whatever. It's it's
all just completely insane.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
So I was trying to work out what to do
next with this, So I thought, I know what I'm
going to go and do is go and see if
my mum and ask her what life was like in
the olden days, which I'm sure she'd love to have
it described that way, the days of black and white,
when everything was in black and white, when it was
when did color start coming.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
In About the early seventies, and then people started getting
Telly's and that's what happened to our world. We started
noticing that the fields were green, and there were apples
on the trees that were this funny color called red.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
I did think that one was a kit that the
world was black. I used to ask you if the
world was black and white in the olden days. Yeah,
it seemed to seemed reasonable, you know, grown up in
a diet of all black and white films and things, a.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Diet of Yeah, that was all I ever trained you.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Is, Yeah, that was the classics, the classics.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, that's because he used to leave you in there
while I was sort of in the tech room or
the gune room or doing something you weren't supposed to
be involved in.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah, I want to nail this off quickly because this
is a story I've told on the podcast before about
was I left in a pram in the stable? Was
you went out riding?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Well not technically.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
It was a pushchair, right, It was harder to fall It.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Was harder to fall out of and there was often
Jenny the labrador in there with you who was guarding
you from all comers. And the door was closed, So
what what could go wrong? But just top half or
just bottom half of the door closed? Oh yeah, no,
the top half was open because you needed air, didn't.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I didn't need a Yeah, So I sat in a
stable in a pushchair with a labrador somewhere in there.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Yeah, But I was always on our land, so you
know when I was riding.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
You're still the closest human totally.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
I didn't actually leave the property, So I don't think
that cancer's abandonment.
Speaker 6 (18:36):
I don't think so. No, And it had no lasting
effect on me, because you still speak to me. I
have got fear of being locked in a stable that
could have come from anywhere, yeh, But.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
That's because I took the stellion out first. So you
were okay, weren't you? And you learn not to be
well resilient, didn't you self?
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Relied iron keep it out for rats?
Speaker 3 (19:02):
We never had rats?
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Good god, that's what the labrador was for. Yeah, and
the goune.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
I mean we might have been in black and white,
but we could surely see a rat in.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
The corner, misremembering this was I actually just bait for rat.
Shoot tink was left in the stable.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Not that I've ever admitted. Probably the crumbs that fell
off your rusk.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
It sounds like an euphemism.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Yeah, I know, we won't go there.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
So what Yeah, because I was born in the eighties,
nineteen nineteen eighties, and like Richard, the other Richard who
was eighteen eighties, I'm sure this nineteen yeah, yeah. What
was the the difference between the countryside then and now?
What are some things that really stand out? Because I
wasn't in the first few years of life, we're not
(19:52):
really aware of it. I just sort of remember colors
and shapes.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
Because we had turned to color by then. I remember
it as being busier with rural people. There was always
I seem to remember, it's lots of people about. I mean,
we had lots of people at home. There was always
someone doing the hedges or sorting out the ditches, or
driving the tractors. You know, just so many things that
(20:21):
gradually you didn't see. You notice some more, well, I suppose,
because everything I do, from the aspect of a rider
was wherever I went, there were people who knew you
and who knew the land.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
I suppose that's that's sort of an unexpected thing of
We've got more people in the country now, the population
so much more now than it was in the nineteen eighties,
but the rural spaces are almost depopulated.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Absolutely, Yeah, And as time goes on there are more
and more and more people who don't understand the countryside,
who don't slow down, who don't anticipate. Farm machinery is
huge now, so you don't see the you know, old
Tom bimbling along on his fergie or anything like that.
(21:13):
You know that it was, and of course a hunt,
you know, we were always involved in that. So however
many days with that there was it was just the
countryside was more country, not down.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
It seemed less like it was something you drove through
to get to other places, which is what.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Yeah, it's a community and you could get the old
adage of be careful what you say to anybody because
they're related was absolutely true, and that went from village
to village to village. But there was a hole in
every village. I mean it now when i'm saying it,
and I've said this often, it sounds as I'm talking
(21:55):
about before the Second World War, But it wasn't that
long ago.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Something for like period dramas on TV and things where
if it's set in the eighties, then everything in there
on screen is definitely a nineteen eighties neon thing. But
that's not how it was. Everything you saw in the
eighties was from the seventies, sixties, and fifties. It was
from Yes, it wasn't like because it's nineteen eighty, right,
we'll wipe out everything.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Yeah, we'll throw everything away. We'll throw all the furniture
away in the dressers and all the rest of it. No,
it was amalgam of everything that was that had been,
and it just kept on being like that, and something's changed.
Another thing I just thought of this now, okay, because
(22:37):
I'm always horses, is that animals are different, and that
you could it's hard to get that across horses are different.
Breeding is different, the way they treated and the way
they act. I mean the way we rode back then,
we didn't really Some people had hard bits and stuff,
(22:59):
but you didn't have all the equipment that everybody did.
But we're still flying over hedges and doing all sorts
of things. And the cows you only really saw freezings
and somebody fancy might have jerseys.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
You know.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Down in the Southwest there were more of those. But yeah,
there were more dogs running around the road, but they
were colleges or terriers or labs.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Yeah. More it seemed like the life led into everyone
else's more. Yes, yeah, it was less less separation, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
And you did hear you know, you did hear shooting
in whether it was your woods or someone else's, and
you'd just say, oh, what's you know? That's you knew
who it was and what they were doing. And it
wasn't anything to suddenly call the police about. I think
I've seen a man with a gun.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
What shall we do.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
It wasn't any of that. It was nicer.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I remember people cycling around with a shotgun across the
hamber bars and things that wasn't that long.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Known having them in the back of the land rover
when they I can think of several farmers who parked
like the crashed, you know, when they were going into
town and it was just because they were going into
the bank. And what about old Jonesy where he pulled
up at the shop and he in his land rover
(24:21):
and he'd got a sheep, a dead sheep. Well it
was by then that he towed all the way.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
He tied to the bumper.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
He tied it to the bumper because he was Jack Jones.
It was dead in the field, so in order to
take it back to the farm, he'd tied it to
the bumper and the farm was just through that field
and up a track. But as he got to the thing,
I think he'd run out of fags or something. Oh yeah,
because everybody smoked, that was the thing. And he decided
(24:51):
to go down to the village shop. But he forgot
about the sheep. Oh that was a mess. That was
if have come down making and of course less hots.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
But he sort of dragged the sheep across the road.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yeah, down the road, yeah, all the way and then
parked and people were just pointing. He wasn't bothered.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
I mean, yeah, what was What was it like in
terms of like shopping and just getting the day to
day things because everything you have to go to a
town to a supermarket. Net.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
Yeah, well, the start in the eighties there would start
being supermarkets, but there weren't by supermarkets. It was just
a bit of the converted a building or something thinking
of stands was particular and just had a lot more
of the same stuff on the shelves and it was
(25:49):
generally it was boiling in there and still about two
people on the tills. The rest of the time, it
was the village. There was you know, the village shop
or the bakers or or that that kind of thing. Again,
it sounds like I'm really old, you know, listeners, I'm
actually not that old. Yeah, it was everything was local
(26:14):
and they could get it for you pretty easily from
you know, roles. It was at the bakers, so they
were in the next village. You did have some weird
things like there were more the vans, you know, the
grocers fans or they they were you know, the fish man,
(26:36):
and there was the guy. I'm not even I had
no preparation for this podcast, absolutely none at all, But
now it's making me think of the got used to.
They had the baker's so he would deliver loas to everybody.
Who was always the orders and and he had, you know,
all the stuff in the van, and he brought the
(26:58):
order of the to the place where we were at,
to the yard, and he I saw him do this.
I was only really quie go when we're at home.
And he went to see what the workmen were doing.
And there was a rat that was stuck in the
(27:18):
down pipe, you know, the drain pipe going into the yard,
but it was half stuck in, so the back half
of its body and its tail was sticking out, and
they were trying to do all sorts. Surprising because father
would have gone mental if he could have done anything
to break the down pipe, because they were all metal
and stuff. So he just went got hold of the
(27:40):
rat's tail, pulled it down, whacked it on the ground,
threw it over to the muck hap over there. So
everybody was sort of okay, And he went back to
the he's van picked up because the loaves weren't wrapped
or anything. Picked up the loaves. Who are doing this now?
Is it two? Is it too? This week? This is breed?
(28:03):
And yeah, And that was it to do, so I
think we'll give it a miss this week. But mother
actually canceled her orders after she was told that, which
is not surprising because you wonder what on earth it
had his hands around there. I know you should see
what producer amy.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
I should also say that we're trying to record this
podcast and my mother's dogs have now decided she's got
last rapsod terriers. And if you've got that breed, you know,
they just they decide they want to be in everything.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
It's a good job it's not on TV.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Mont Mrancy of three men in the boat fame could
have been a laster rapsode terrier, yes, fighting and then
in everything. So trying to record a podcast on the
table and there's now two dogs trying to lick the
microphone and there's a labrador here as well and wants
to be involved in everything. This is it's usual country
slide chaos.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
This is just how you were brought up.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, and that's okay. So the next thing then, because
it's something that's it's sometimes a topic of discussion on
Scribehound and other sort of rural areas that you know
what life is like for women in the countryside. Now
women in rural spaces. But this is something you and
I have discussed a few times. So I've shared these
(29:23):
things with you and you said, well, yeah, well there's
another element to it of what it was like in
the eighties or before then. So as a woman in
the countryside in the eighties, what was it like.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
It was just in relevance to the countryside. Yeah, I
mean because sort of the influence is that women need
to be more involved in things. But they were very
much involved. Often had the last say no matter you know,
if we're talking about farm or that the yard, you know,
(30:01):
with the horses and this sort of stuff. The men
might have the you know, the impression of sort of
going and going around giving out the orders, but it
would be coming back to the wife there who would
be going, no, that's not what we're doing. But they could,
you know, you could drive the tractor or drive the
land rover, or if the harvest was you know, there's
(30:25):
a bit tight with staff, they'd be doing that. As
the children were involved, you know, that was it didn't
matter whether you it was because as well as children
you were involved in everything, and the girls and the boys.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
You're expected to work on the farm. If you grew
up on a farm, weren't you.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
There was no sort of yeah, and I mean there
were certain jobs where I was going to say we
were taught how we were supposed to have people who
did it for us as well, but you know, taught
how to make things like read and do stuff with
the cheese and everything. But it rarely did it because
(31:07):
I didn't want to. But it wasn't because anybody couldn't.
I and our grandparents did it. You see. I'm thinking
of my grandma, your great grandmother, who could do all
this stuff. But they weren't that so they might have
done it, maybe because they were old. I don't know.
I'm looking back on it and thinking, but there wasn't
(31:31):
much of suppression of women that happened when I went
into the working world, right, there would be a bit
more of that, but as things were changing there. Yeah,
the conversations we've had are about how and I understand
it's difficult, but really, if you were a strong woman
(31:51):
even back then and just studg a ground and did
the thing, it was just normal.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Because you were of one of.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
Six, one of six five.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Yeah, eldest of six and five five five girls, one boy.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
So maybe I'm looking at it from that point of view.
I know mother always used to get really annoyed because
you know, back in the sixties or the seventies, she
couldn't sign things without my father having.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
You couldn't get anything. I wasn't it worse once you
were married. If you're a single woman, you could effectively
get a bank account and things once you're married.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
To double Yes, it had to be and then so
that's really where you've got don over, so to speak.
Was that your possessions became.
Speaker 5 (32:45):
Then.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
But again we're only talking about the eighties. I discovered
most of that when I divorced your father. I didn't
make that mistake again that.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah, the idea of property ownership and things was different law.
It wasn't sort of you're expected to get married and
stay together forever. Therefore things were shared. You weren't. It
wasn't set up to being divorced and having your own
independence after that.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
No, So that was where it became difficult. But if
you were, I would Women are pretty wily now, and
again I could I could say this is just not
from being a woman, but from being one of five girls.
That and I think there was so much of it.
(33:32):
Then women were constantly working out how to cover their backs,
cover their themselves. Again, I'm avoiding words thinking ahead of
just in cases and what if. My grandmother, after whom
I was named, she would always say to the girls,
(33:55):
now you make sure you put money elsewhere. You don't
husband about husbands that you at that point you had
no intention of.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
It, just accepted you have to have a husband, you
have to. But you also have to assume that it's
all going to go wrong at some point as well.
Speaker 3 (34:11):
Yes, so you've got it was a fond yes, which
is it sounds odd now, but that's kind of how
it was. And it was just sort of understood from
that point of view, and most had no intention of
that's that's not going into it thinking we'll split up.
But no, but that a lot of women as well,
(34:35):
they allowed things to happen. You know. I think of
several relationships where there was trouble at mill, so to speak,
but they just pretended it wasn't happening.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Yeah, because it was. It was it's easier to not
rock the boat.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Yes, yeah, yeah, that's right. But my point of view
is you have a miserable life thing, you know, I'd
rather be this trappy independent that's how I am.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
What's that's how we describe you.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
I don't know how you describe expect it's not in
glowing terms.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
So what about as well, like poverty and rural poverty,
because it always seems like rural poverty doesn't look like
urban poverty and certainly not now because but it was
easier to be poor in the countryside then that it
is now almost.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
Yeah, and it was less noticed noticeable as being poor.
What a mean is because going back to the community
spirit and everybody being related to each other or you know,
they'd come up from the same village school. Some of
us went into schools elsewhere once we reached the early
(35:52):
teens or wherever. But because people stayed in the same communities,
and that the grandparents are still there and the great
grandparents are in the graveyard, et cetera, et cetera. So
you knew who it was obvious who perhaps weren't so
well off. There was there was still a lot of
(36:12):
generationally poor, yeah, but there was so because there was
a community, people would help so and that's you know,
you get onto the politics of it. But even with
employment laws, it was women then who perhaps weren't given
much money from possibly feckless husbands who didn't earn as
(36:38):
much or give them.
Speaker 6 (36:39):
As well drank a Friday night in the villages, not
obviously not everybody, but some of the villages.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
But then the woman would be given jobs, as in
she could work at the vicarage, or you know she worked,
would work at our house, or the be given jobs
because you didn't the employment. This law, the law employment
laws that put in supposally to protect people also has
eliminated over the years the possibility of paying the older
(37:10):
guy the pension or et cetera to work in the
garden or put in a few.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Days to raise the initial barrier of employment so high
that you can't do it informally to help people that yeah,
because it's just so.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Then they had to turn the face to the state
and then for whatever that was. So, yes, there were
there was poverty, but there was also a lot of help.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
We might have thought, yes, well.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
He's always robing the place or he's doing this, but no,
we'll we'll give you that off. Or because there was
a lot of food about because it was rural, then
that could be given and help with the with the fire,
or you know all of that sort of stuff. So
(37:52):
I'm not disputing that there wasn't poverty, but even rich
people were poor. You know, it wasn't you know the
show the pictures of frost on the inside of windows,
Well we have that we had a nice big house
and all the rest of it. There was frost on
the inside of the windows.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Because it was after the Second World War, was when
the it was the downturn of the gentry kind of
in terms of landed land meant money.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Yeah, because the text they the Jesus out of them
in the fifties and the sixties.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
And still haven't recovered from the First World or really
haven't they.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
No, it had gone on and then there was fewer
people who wanted to work on the land, so you know,
the family were working on the land or you know,
so many changes that they've gone to the towns, to
the cities to work in different places. And gradually as
(38:53):
you went up through the six when I think like
being a sixes and being a really young kid, and
it just seemed to be so many people about, and
then the seventies you noticed it a bit different.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
And so if the land you could still be the
sort of the squire in the eighties, but you were
using stuff that you bought in the fifties.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Oh totally. I know.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
They were living out their life with those possessions. Yes,
so once they'd gone, everything was gone.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Yeah, yeah, there was the if you looked at it closely,
there might have been a lot of buildings, but how
posh were the buildings And you know again with the
animals everything. The lights were rubbish in any of the
barns or the stables, so everything was still done in
(39:46):
the dark. I'm still tight, aren't it? Because even to
this day it's a bit it was embedded in me
that when I'm out at five doing horses or late
at night, we've got huge amounts of stable lights and
will I turn them on? No, I won't clupturing around
with your head talk on absolutely, because.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
One step up from a candle lantern.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Because that was you know, obviously, when I'm saying this
is why you think it was in black and white.
It was changing during your youth, wasn't it.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
It was? And that's things like land us seem to
be changing. That's always marked the point where all the
fields got bigger or hedges were ripped out, and things
like that could you see that happening in real time?
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Yes, And it was really depressing because.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
We're people talking about it.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
All the time, but it was it was like talking
about stuff the government and whatever. Do now you can
talk about it till you blue in the face, you see.
I myself certainly, I can remember my grandparents get so
angry because again, because we've always been there, you knew where.
It sounds so stupid, but we knew where all the
nests were. It hadn't changed that much since Lorri Lee.
(40:54):
We knew where they were. The trees were there. That
was the tree or that was a tree where your
grandfather did whatever.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
That's what I think. That's where you see the owls here.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Yes, and that family, that family of barn owls have
been coming back here and all of that, and then
that it's at the same time in the small towns,
they were demolishing the gorgeous black and white buildings and
the stone buildings and putting up those concrete contraptions.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
And they were so proud of it, weren't they one
This wonderful new, wonderful quarter story car park slash shopping center.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
I can't just keep saying it was the labor government,
but Bazarrely it was.
Speaker 5 (41:34):
Yeah, and there were there were just hedges were just
being ripped out, and you know, the equipment was getting
that bit bigger, and you didn't see that there were
started building more a few more houses by the time
we got into the seventies.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
So some farmer who son had probably gone into the
town to work in the work in the sit anywhere,
but he doesn't want to work on the farm, so
then he's going to die, so he sold it top
which has been repeated over time. And you it just
changed and then and the village schools were getting closed,
(42:12):
so the kids we were sent sent to a different
village school before I had to go to a girls' school.
That's another story. And because I think in that village
we had three or four shops and then it went
(42:32):
down to two. And by the time we were getting
into the eighties, I don't think there's one in there.
There might have been one, but they weren't really selling much.
And I think they had the same stock that they
had in the fifties. From what you could see, it
was in a dark corner. So yeah, it seemed to
(42:53):
just change really rapidly. And then people were upset, were complain,
would do petitions, would do the same things to do now.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Is just all I talked about at a parish level,
and you might write to the county newspaper.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
Yeah, they'd get people to be in the village hall,
the community whatever, and by then village halls, whereas people
would meet in the village school and then that was
the village hall at the same time. And by the
time it was to get into the eighties, the village
schools had now moved to somewhere else and the school
was still there, the old Victorian thing, but that was
(43:33):
just the village hall community center, and they'd go in
there and I could you'd hear the same people that shouting.
Father would be mother would stand up there because she
was in am drama as well, so she'd love to
take the stage. You know, they're all very nearly going
to turn around and do something about it if something
doesn't happen. But it didn't matter. They're just still leveled everywhere,
(43:58):
and fewer cows, and so it goes on progress apparently,
so it's and then I'm trying to think when it
would be then I suppose it would be getting this
is again I am by no means any knowledge of
(44:19):
this expert knowledge. But by there were the milk. There
was a milk marketing board and everything started getting put
out towards early nine.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
If you got to feed Europe not the UK.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Now, yeah, we had to worry about everybody else, which
we only ever heard about news in Africa or somewhere
else about four weeks later as a corner thing in
the Daily Express.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
And then like Live Aid and things made it up.
Speaker 3 (44:45):
Oh god, let's go and look at some starving people
elsewhere whoa even back then they will going what about
the starving people back here whose factors have closed down?
Speaker 1 (44:57):
Because that was the other thing. A lot of the focus
in the eighties was on the those industrial urban areas
that were being all the closes and things that were
massively effecting that and everything, because that was all delay
from trade union action in the seventies, which no one
ever sort of links the two together. Like the eighties
everything was going fired and then suddenly everything was closed down.
Was when you look at that timeline, it's that stuff
(45:18):
have been crapped since about nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Oh yeah, they had you know, and everybody around, Oh
I suppose you had two opposing views. I actually loved
Margaret Thatcher. My father hated.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
Her because you were a woman in the eighties.
Speaker 3 (45:33):
Yes, in my mind she opened up so many doors,
forms and possibilities. And yet the seventies was just one long,
horrible decade of power cuts and petrol shortages and sugar shortages,
which was just when none of us could have sugar,
(45:53):
and then so many things had shut down. I was
working at a place where they advertised, This must have
been in the mid eighties. They advertised for lorry drivers,
and they because people phoned in just ring this number,
and it had been put in the local paper, in
a little thing, and the phone never stopped. In the end,
(46:16):
they unplugged the phone because it was horrible listening to
poor guys who were saying, I've just been laid off. Yeah,
and there was They could have been the best qualified
person in the world, but they couldn't.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
People seem to forget that an economy is people, or
it used to be. Yeah, that all of these things,
I think this are the markets have crashed. It's not
the markets have crashed. It's that all these people have
lost their jobs, all these people have lost it. It's
all these so.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Then they weren't spending the money because they didn't have
any to spend, and then so the welfare bills go.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Up, and we've never really recovered from it. Sort of,
it seemed like in the nineties it was upswing, but
then welfare spendings just carried on going up and up
every year thereafter.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Well.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
It also in the eighties was the decade of the yuppies,
which is not this thing about going into business and
having more freedom.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
You weren't just going to work for either a civil
service or a big firm. There was like a third
option of working for an American company that happened to
have an office ear or.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
Yeah, and to be I can't think. The only word
I could think of, which doesn't really do it is jazzier,
you know, because you weren't working for the it was brilliant.
All those stuff I said was brilliant work. Yes, because
and fashion has changed as well. So it's probably you
(47:40):
saying about the American companies because the americanization the TV
when it had changed to color, you know, we were
saying things that so and there was the horrible things
then about closing the minds. Even though Harold Wilson closed
way more than but there was. There were miners, you know,
(48:03):
in the few villages to us, and so are the
ones who are the same age asuls who were supposed
to go into the mines following the dad, granddad, all
the rest, and they didn't want to so but they
were all living in the same villages. And for anybody,
any young guy, to say I don't want to go
down the mind dad.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Was met.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
They had to leave their entire community because the older
generations wanted to keep it together. Not Christian has a
tribal tradition, yes, yeah, but in order to leave that,
because everything depended on the mine, they had to leave, which.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Had it in Cornwall. Like if you if you're you
worked in clay, in the clay industry or something like that,
and you wanted to go fishing, you wanted to go
into fishing, you want to go into another sort of
really that you were even though you weren't leaving the
area you doing basically another hard physical job.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
You would changed tribes.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
You're almost like a tribal traitor almost, yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
So the only answer was to conform or leave. And
it's I don't know, it's I okay, it sounds really sad.
It wasn't because I got through. It's all an adverse.
It depends on how you viewed it as well. Because
(49:28):
we you don't have to do the same as your parents,
and you can just have a reason to debate.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
It was the first massive economic disruption, not the first one,
but the first one in that century that had taken
you away from working for bigger institutions because everything else
had been increased institutionalization from the Victorian period all the
way through and then post war welfare state, NHS on Sunday,
(49:58):
nationalization of railways, all of those. You're actually you'd gone
from less private industry to more nationalized industry. Yes, so
the eighties with the denationalization of that, it was undoing
only about thirty five years because you starting to reverse
the trend. But now it seems to be that there's
(50:22):
more back, almost a nationalization, because you see how many
people work for the NHS. Now, how many people work
for these big employers, are the state in one for
or independent companies who have contracts servicing the state. Yeah,
as well, we seem to be back at a higher
level of state employment or state dependency than it was
(50:44):
by the end of the eighties or middle of the eighties,
and the rural space is probably one of the few
that's there's booking that trend a little bit.
Speaker 3 (50:54):
But yeah, and they're trying to break that, aren't they now.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Yeah, it does seem.
Speaker 3 (51:00):
Because there's still this even all. That's the things that
I've said, And we had all of the stories and
people who lived in cities and lived in the streets
of the cities they all had stories as well, but
they knocked all their places down and filled them with
warehouses up and things. So it was still a big
community and often I mean, we've never really left it,
(51:23):
have we. That kind of community. It's familiar.
Speaker 1 (51:27):
And I was thinking about this. I was in London
yesterday and in the City of London as wandering around
and poultry that's cheapside hang on, I remember about this
is this used to be the poorest of the poor community. Yeah, totally,
And this was where people live, you know, are stacked
on top of each other almost and now it's just
(51:48):
city and big and boozy lunches. So that erosion of
people and I mean, if you drop race out of
it entirely, just you look at it entirely a cultural level.
This indigenous idea of people in a place, people working
and living in a place with other people who work
and live in that place, that's being eroded.
Speaker 3 (52:10):
Yeah, because the community was kinder. As I said before,
there'll be all sorts of rouse and arguments that went
sometimes through generations, but in the end, really they would
even all go to the funeral, which it sounds really stupid,
but it's still an accepted community. I think. Also what's
(52:32):
been badly lost is the lack of which is one
of the things I love you doing on this podcast
is almost reminding people teaching people about rural history because
if the mister generation or two out with that, the
think that they've got to learn it again, as if
all fancy people used to do this, But there were
(52:54):
living people who.
Speaker 1 (52:57):
And it was not that long ago. No, But the
rate of change has been so rapid that it does
feel like you're talking about the nineteenth century UNOS ninety five.
Speaker 3 (53:09):
As you know, we're saying it's sort of talked sisters
or whoever, you know, people we know that were clearly
around then. But saying around then just is weird because
the age of people has changed as well, because we're
not going around on zimmer frames or anything like that.
You're still doing exactly the same thing, which happens I
(53:31):
think more in rural communities that I was when I
was a kid. I'm still You watched me the other
day being dragged around by seventeen to young horse, and
I was determined not to let go of that leader.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
We're just going to watch what happened, no matter how
it turned out.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
Amy, get the camera because this could be.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
Gone, recalled.
Speaker 6 (53:50):
This someone's going to want to watch this posterity and
hearing the use words that I haven't used on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (53:56):
But I won didn't fight in arena. I mean I
did that when I was six, so they were just
smaller than that was all.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
So it's this this thing of well you said, like,
you know, remembering back then. It's like if you say, oh,
rural Britain in the eighties, anyone who lived and worked
there knows what you mean. Yes, which is interesting in
itself because you I can't say, or you know, rural
Britain in between twenty ten and twenty twenty, because it's
just all sort of me We don't have that distinction
(54:25):
between decades in the way we used to the last
twenty five years is pretty much the same, whereas nineteen
ninety to two thousand is distinct from nineteen eighty to
nineteen ninety. It feels like you've got these epochal blocks,
but now it's just the sludge that we have the
sledge of time.
Speaker 3 (54:44):
Yeah, of course a story or something like that. Is
that's where such a thing used to be. That's where
the field used to be. That's where the market used
to be.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
Yeah, you're talking in the past tens.
Speaker 3 (54:56):
That's where that you know, you're say, in the Southwest,
which knew every inch of it. That's where such a
thing used to be. Look, it's all covered in houses
that for some reason have got blue glass in them. Yeah,
and the back to the sixties concrete thing. But now
it's I don't know what they call it biodegradable.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
I think it's It is kind of a lost time
period as well, because no one was writing histories about
the seventies and eighties at the time. No one was
making notes thinking this is all going to go away
very quickly.
Speaker 3 (55:25):
No, they were thinking, oh, we're getting modern.
Speaker 1 (55:28):
So is this now I was talking about this now?
Is that like someone in the eighties researching the inter
war years, because it's actually about the same time period.
It's about forty forty five years.
Speaker 3 (55:37):
Except the kind of in time wise, but in familiarity
and the surroundings, you'd be able to say, you see
that building there.
Speaker 1 (55:45):
Yes, that's the one.
Speaker 3 (55:47):
Yeah, the one is where everybody is going in that
is yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:51):
Yeah, because I found a photo months ago for something else.
I think I thought about it on the podcast, but
I found a photo of Mike Christenink you're Chris thank
and it's like that. Well, first all, everything's like the
orange brown, Yeah, various shades of orange and brown.
Speaker 3 (56:09):
And tobacco yellow.
Speaker 1 (56:11):
There's nothing there that's familiar to now, no other than fact, well,
these are humans and that's electricity.
Speaker 3 (56:16):
And most of them are dead.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
Yeah, but it'd be very disorienting to go back to
that point, whereas if you showed me a photo from
two thousand and five, it would feel much more familiar. Yeah,
lack of phones would be the difference, I know.
Speaker 3 (56:29):
But and more yeah, as you say, more smoking, more drinking.
Speaker 1 (56:34):
So there is almost a point now where we should
be recording the history of aural Britain in the seventies, eighties.
Speaker 3 (56:41):
Nineties, I should write more stories.
Speaker 1 (56:43):
You should write more stories. So you have your website
Aprido dot com. Yeah, it will be the links of
the show notes. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (56:53):
It's written back one thousand years though. I'm very good
at ancient.
Speaker 1 (56:56):
You're kind of a family historian, aren't you. Yes, which
means you sort of getting phone calls and emails from
people in Australia.
Speaker 3 (57:03):
And New Zealand and the second cousin.
Speaker 1 (57:05):
Yeah, all the cousin Jack's who sided off overseas and
descendants like well I found this and this that, I
found your website and it's can you tell me about everything? Yeah,
John Brido of ivy Bridge and sixteen whatever.
Speaker 3 (57:21):
But sadly sometimes I do answer and sometimes I don't.
But sadly I'm thinking in my head now he must
have been a brother too.
Speaker 1 (57:28):
Yeah, because we worked out. There's when I went to
see Roger Morgan Grenville for something in this summer and
sat there at his table working out. It's like when
you go back to Grenville and there was Bevill Grenville.
Speaker 3 (57:40):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's family is married.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
It's this weird thing. Is that why you can trace
your family history back so far? It's like no, because
one woman. We can leaking together all these things and
now that that other people can trace their family history
because of your stupid website.
Speaker 3 (57:55):
And book, and they just think the internet have sorted
it out.
Speaker 1 (57:58):
Yeah, because you said we find you find your on
listen on other people's things of you know, the the AA.
Prido says this about it.
Speaker 3 (58:05):
It's like I'm some dead academic. Yeah, I'm still here
towing horses running the school.
Speaker 1 (58:10):
Yeah. I remember once on Twitter somebody arguing with me
about something in family history. For some reading, this is
stupid argument and they quoted your thing to me. What
he Prido says, like, I can bring.
Speaker 3 (58:20):
Her and ask her, you know right now, I know,
and you don't want to get her involved.
Speaker 1 (58:28):
So if you are one of like the four hundred
and fifty people in the UK who are currently descendants
in our family line, you can buy her books there.
You're on all book platforms. But yeah, thank you for
recording this. This is unexpected recording and I kind of
hijacked you in between.
Speaker 3 (58:44):
Yeah, because I've still got courses to school.
Speaker 2 (58:47):
You have.
Speaker 1 (58:48):
Yeah, and it's now it's all the good lights gone
and it's gotten windy.
Speaker 3 (58:51):
Now I'll go and get my head talks.
Speaker 1 (58:53):
Yeah, you can go and do that. Thank you, listeners,
Thank you for a disjointed episode. This is this is
the entire show. No I have to show this week,
but it's from doing our best. Back next week. Byem
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