November 6, 2023 • 39 mins
In this episode, our guest has requested to remain anonymous. He is a senior executive at a major corporation and has successfully risen to the top after a 30+ year career in business. He shares with us the feelings of shame he has endured from multiple childhood traumas, and how he has turned that shame into a competitive advantage.
DISCLAIMER: This episode contains topics of substance abuse, sexual abuse, and many levels of deep trauma. Please pause whenever needed if necessary.
DISCLAIMER: This episode contains topics of substance abuse, sexual abuse, and many levels of deep trauma. Please pause whenever needed if necessary.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey, thanks for joining us andtuning in to my podcast, Curious and
Uncomfortable. I'm Niri. You arecreator, producer, and host. This
podcast is an exploratory conversation where twopeople come together and talk about being uncomfortable.
I have guests come on from allover the country, from various walks
(00:20):
of life and unique professions, andtogether we question all things uncomfortable through many
lenses society, lifestyle, politics,culture, and more. In doing this,
our conversations are real, perceptive,and natural. They aren't scripted,
and most of the time they aren'teven really planned. We're just two curious
(00:43):
people eager to answer some questions.So open your mind, listen, and
learn. Let's be curious together.Hey guys, welcome to episode three of
(01:15):
Curious and Uncomfortable. If you're newhere, welcome, If you're not,
welcome back. For this episode,our guest has requested to remain anonymous for
personal and professional reasons, so togive you a little bit of background information
before the episode begins, this personis a family friend, a close friend
(01:38):
to me and my parents. Heis a very successful corporate executive at a
very large company, and this episodecontains a lot of dark and traumatic topics
of discussion involving substance abuse, sexualabuse, and many other things as well.
(02:08):
So this person has been kind enoughto share his story and talk about
how it's led him to where heis today. And this is a very
dark and tragic story that has trulya beautiful outcome. And I really think
(02:29):
a lot of people, whether they'veexperienced the same things or not, can
take a lot of inspiration and gaina tremendous amount of wisdom from this guest.
So with that, let's get curiouswith our anonymous guest. I think
(02:54):
it's the category of a comfortableness ofliving with shame and being able to survive
in the world with a bunch ofshame that has nothing to do with you,
per se in terms of why theshame happened, and trying to show
up in the world. Will youhave this crazy feeling of uncomfortableness, imposter
syndrome, feeling lessly down across multiplecategories and still being able to come across
(03:17):
as somebody who has their act togetherand become a very successful corporate executive.
And it really wasn't until my lateforties where I really started reflecting on all
of my success and I was ableto go back and kind of isolate all
these shame components that I was soscared for people to find out about.
(03:38):
And I was able to isolate specificshame categories as to like corporate muscles that
made me outshine and outperform every singleperson around me. And then I had
a massive sense of gratitude for allof the shame categories because they made me
competitively excellent and they allowed me toride with all of my colleagues in ways
(04:01):
that's almost unfair, because the gravityof the shame gave me just skills that
you only can get from severe trauma. And I never really acknowledge acknowledge that
till later in my career. Andthat's partly because there's nowhere higher I can
go in my company, and Ihave all types of credibility and success,
(04:25):
and at this point in my career, if anybody found out all this,
they would be totally inspired, becausethere's no more promotions that I can gain.
I'm kind of at the top ofmy game. And when you're at
the top of your game, youfeel more comfortable sharing things like this,
and you just get a little bitolder and get really comfortable in your skin.
But I thought this podcast might bean opportunity for anyone else that lives
(04:46):
with shame to find the warrior thatthe shame has given them so that they
can unleash it, harness it,and thrive. Perhaps there's something about my
story and the imposter syndrome that Ifelt for the majority of my life which
will register for other people and tohelp them. I stay in the pocket
of calmness in situations where other peopleblow a gasket, like as the world
(05:11):
goes crazy or I go calmer.Someone can be shouting at my face,
yelling right in front of me,was spit coming out of their mouth,
and I'm unflappable, and people arelike, that's just not normal. I
mean one of my clients back inthe early nineties, one of my clients
got up in a room in myface. Obviously was reprimanded, but literally
(05:32):
got up and just started screaming andsaid I have a gun that's got your
name all over it, like rightin my face, like spit coming out
of his mouth. And I waslike, I was hired by this organization
and everybody was like, how didyou stay so calm? And this is
where I always saying, I'll givetwo shame examples that allowed me to thrive
in that moment. So, first, I had a psychotic one of my
(05:55):
father was was psychologically unstable, wasa lifetime drug abuser and drug dealer,
and he and all of his friendsalways added constant instability around me, whether
they were raging, drugged up,out of their minds, this was always
around me. And like, I'vebeen surrounded by people that were under the
influence of drugs and unstable my entirelife since I was a small kid,
(06:20):
and I knew how to manage them. And my father, who was was
insane, who abused my mother,he abused me. I just I just
kind of was used to being aroundsomebody and have to live with your abuser,
and I could always just stay calm, even though he may be hitting
me or hitting my mother, Ijust stay calm. And so my ability
(06:42):
to stay calm and the craziest ofsituations, that's where like the old version
of it was like, oh,I'm ashamed that my father was a drug
dealer. He came from this,So that was like the that was the
less version. The more than versionof that is I've achieved the ability to
stay calm, cool and collected witheasy people, crazy situations around me,
and that makes me thriving corporate America. So that's when I say from less
(07:06):
than and more than. That's oneexample, and I've literally gone through my
entire life and I can cite specificsituations that have given me competitive advantage in
corporate America. And that's one.And another one in that situation is,
you know, I was molested bymy grandfather when I started when I was
like four years old, and Iused to have to go to his house
(07:29):
because he was my childcare provider,and I dreaded it, and I had
to go there because my parents didn'thave the financial means for me to go
to after school daycare and walking inand knowing that's going to happen and just
kind of land there and taking it. And this is your grandfather, and
I was around him in holidays,Christmases, and this was my abuser.
And I had to stay calm withmy abuser around me all the time,
(07:51):
which is why I cannot lose mymind when someone gets up in the meeting
and says they're going to shoot mewith my gut and they have my name
all over it. I've been surroundedmy users the whole time. I've got
to see my user at Christmas,at my birthday party, and it allows
me to stay calm, cold,and collected. So that's just an example
of shame in two categories and howit gave me competitive advantage. So you
(08:13):
were able to take something so traumaticand horrifying from very very early on in
your life that you're very far fromnow and actually use it to your advantage,
which I feel like is very difficultfor a lot of people to say,
who have dealt with various kinds oftrauma, that it's very difficult to
(08:37):
overcome it and be able to acceptthe fact that it happened and it's a
part of their life, but thento actually use it for competitive advantage,
for success, for corporate success,or just in like interpersonal relationships, like
dealing with someone yelling at you andbeing able to have either absolutely no reaction
(09:01):
at all or being able to notrespond in the same way or be defensive
or whatever. It's like you've beentrained without you having the choice to be
trained, Like you didn't choose totrain yourself to do that, it was
just given to you. Yeah,well, but it took me forty five
years to discover this right. Sofor the first forty to forty five years
(09:22):
of my career, I was justterrified if somebody finding out that I was
a survivor of child molestation. Iwas terrified for people to find out my
father was a drug dealer. Iwas terrified for all these things. For
the first forty five years, Ialways felt like, Gosh, I didn't
go to an Ivy League school.Oh, I grew up in a trailer
park. Oh, I'm a gayguy. Oh my father was a drug
(09:43):
dealer. And all this was inmy head at every meeting with people with
their two thousand dollars suits, withtheir two thousand dollars shoes, and I'm
literally at a table trying to closea deal, and I'm feeling so uncomfortable
in my skin because I feel likeI'm on the outside circle of this incre
But everybody thinks that I'm in thecircle because I appear to be a successful
(10:05):
white man. But the first fortyfive years, I want to make sure
you know that I didn't have theI didn't do this exercise of converting all
the shame from less end categories themore than categories. This is something that's
happened over the last seven years,which is why I was like, man,
this is super powerful, and Iwonder how many other people are really
successful but are also having this feelingof imposter syndrome that haven't acknowledged it.
(10:30):
Because it's really I mean, whenyou really get comfortable with it, it's
really a story of inspiration for alot of people, and in some ways.
I tell my friend's kids who havenormal parents in a normal situation,
they should really think about staging atrauma, and they're like, what do
you mean stage of trauma. I'mlike, your kids are at a competitive
disadvantage because they went to a privateschool. They've had normalcy their entire life,
(10:52):
and they're going to get crushed inthe world. What I'm telling you
is to stage a trauma to stressthem out and make them feel like the
world's going to fall apart. Andthey're like, I can't do that to
my kid. I'm like, well, you should think about that, because
coming from a broken family in acrazy situation is a massive blessing, even
though it sucks growing up growing upwith that story. But well, what's
(11:13):
difficult I think about it is thatin the moment, the child or whoever
it is, the teenager will neverrealize in the moment what it's going to
do for them in the future,because it sucks in the moment, right
when you fail in the moment.It sucks when you're dealing with something super
very traumatic. It's like, yeah, it feels like the world's going to
(11:33):
end and there's no stopping it andwhatever. But then it takes you said
decades, It takes forty years,forty plus years to then realize and look
back on and say, you know, I'm not defined by this section or
portion of my life or my childhoodor whatever has happened to me. Not
only does it not define me,I can actually say kind of thank you,
(11:56):
like thank you for it. Althoughit's it's unfathomable for the average person,
for any person, it's unfathomable.So yeah, well, yeah,
it's interesting. One thing I'll I'llcall it your attention, and I want
everybody who's listening to this podcast tounderstand is a really important principle because when
(12:18):
people learn my story, there islike, oh my gosh, your life's
been so painful. What people don'trealize, Nayri, is that the severity
of trauma the most is the samefor all people, But it's a function
of what's the most severe trauma you'veever encountered. So if you came from
a normal family and the most significanttrauma you've ever experienced is your parents getting
(12:41):
divorced and it completely rocked your world, that feels exactly the same to that
person because they have no reference pointas it does me getting violated by a
relatives as a survivor of child molestation. The human psyche only knows the harshness
that it's been exposed. It knowsright. So the absolute value of your
worst moment is the same for allpeople, and no one should try to
(13:05):
constitute a molestation is worse than yourparents getting divorced. It's not true.
And trauma is only the worst daythat you've known, and those moments stick
with you your whole life. Andfor some people like me, it's like
being in a drug distribution family andother people where it's pretty normal that your
parents get divorced, that your parentsdivorce, and we should just respect that
the pain is the same and notapply other evaluative criteria as to why that's
(13:28):
not as bad as your worst day. So two of the things that I'll
mention in my background that other lessstand more than categories, because ever since
I entered the professional world, myability to sell and close deals was so
far beyond other people that in myorganization earlier in my career, for the
(13:54):
stretch of fifteen years, I hadhigher sales, one of the top sales
in lead of an organization that's goteighty to one hundred thousand people. I
was always at the very top.People are like, oh, my gosh,
you're so incredible at sales. Youknow, how did you get so
good at it? And as Itold you, I didn't go to Ivy
League. I went to these veryaverage schools, and I'd never really share
(14:16):
people, and now that I sharethis, but you know, I started
selling drugs when I was eleven yearsold. So my uncle. My uncle
did pot and cocaine and sold both, and my father was a marijuana a
drug dealer, and I started deliveringdrugs when I was eleven years old on
a bike. And the first drugdeal that I did, it was right
(14:37):
in front of a seven to elevenstore and my father gave me a quarter
arounds of marijuana wrapped in a towel, and I went up and I met
the guy there and he basically saidhe was short of cash and out of
nowhere. I was like, mydad doesn't do IOUs, no cash,
no drugs, And I started developinga whole bunch of sales slogans in other
(14:58):
crazy situations, but like the onemy dad doesn't do, I used their
cash of drugs. I mean,I know it sounds ridiculous, but I
was like eleven years old, Ididn't have a driver's license, and I
started having sales slogans on how thingsworked and not worked, either get out
of a bad deal or deal withpeople. And you transfer that into the
corporate world and you go and you'retrying to get a person to buy something.
(15:22):
Man, you've been doing this sinceyou were eleven years old. And
so it wasn't something I learned itat Harvard. It wasn't something I learned
at Wharton. It's just a streetsmart kid on the street hustling drugs and
doing transactions and knowing how to sayand what not to say in order to
make it go and so make itwork. Rather but like the whole finance,
(15:46):
the first part of my chat withmy career, which was all about
sales and delivery, was completely informedand influenced by the fact that I was
at a master salesman that started whenI was eleven years old, which is
not something you can say about.Yeah, like exactly what you said.
It's never going to really compare tosomeone who's even gone to the highest level
(16:07):
of education possible, has been inthe business or been in that part of
that company for like decades or something. It's never going to compare one.
I think also because it's real worldsituations rather than being taught in a class
or in a school. You know, you've been put on the streets with
(16:30):
real people in a dangerous situation orsomething that can be elevated to something extremely
dangerous. And also that it's notwillingly. It's just something you did or
you had to do, right becauseyou're a kid, so you I mean,
(16:52):
when something's either forced upon you oryou don't have a choice and it's
not in your control, you kindof do the best that you can at
it because you know there's no otheroption. So when you put on the
streets with real people with real money, with real drugs, and you know
(17:12):
the consequences, you're going to putone hundred and ten percent into it,
and you start that at a developmentalage where your brain is not even I
don't even think halfway to being fullydeveloped, because I think it's like twenty
five. So you're you're learning howlife works. You're learning how to like,
(17:33):
you know, make friends and navigateelementary school and know if you want
to be a doctor or a lawyer, and you know things like that,
You're you're not learning that. Sowhen your brain is trained to think that
way, to think in like aselling way. I don't know how you
(17:56):
would phrase that because I don't knowhow that what terminology would be there,
but like to think like a salesman, whether it's with what you do in
your company or whether it's with somethingthat's you know, illegal. I don't
care what school you went to,I don't care how long you've been doing
sales. I will crush you,period. I will crush you. That's
(18:18):
the more the inversion of what usedto be that shame statement and the last
one I would say that's probably beenmy biggest the biggest gift of all the
gifts that I've been given from allof this, uh my life experience and
the shame that has kept me inthe uncomfortable situation for most of my life
is uh, my survival was basedon always scanning a room. My ability
(18:44):
to sense detect human energy is ata level that is beyond what is It's
almost unexplainable in terms of things thatI feel because I'm so in tune with
people's energy that I can tell youthings about their background, how they're feeling,
that they have health complications. AndI know that sounds utterly ridiculous.
You've seen you personally see me dothis, but it is giving me the
(19:11):
ability of human energy connection that isliterally it transcends, it almost transcends the
human experience. It's like I'm connectedto the source of humanity in a way
that I had to be in orderto not die. And it is a
gift that I use every day andevery sales call and how I supervise and
(19:33):
lead people because I know when someone'soff because I can feel it. And
I have historically had incredibly high scoresfor anyone that's worked on my teams for
always wanted to be in my orbitbecause they feel heard, they feel seen,
and they know that they matter.And I have a commitment to all
people. You do you everyone elsehas already taken, and I commit to
(19:56):
working around that. That was highlyinformed by my ability to be so connected
to people's energy and knowing how mybehavior and my actions affect other people.
But that all came that all camefrom being, you know, a ten
year old kid scanning the room incessantlymaking sure nothing crazy was going to happen
to you. And man, Isure regret being in that situation as a
(20:18):
kid, But talk about competitive advantage. I can tell you how people are
feeling in any given moment without themsaying anything to me. And I have
absolutely used that to my benefit incorporate America. You know, as someone
who's who's experienced it and seen itfirsthand, I have to say it's pretty
incredible. Because the first time Imet you, you within would say less
(20:44):
than ten minutes, like told mewho I was, and I was like,
who is this dude? Because Ijust came. I came from downstairs
and I was like, my momjust met this person. And I was
like, oh, oh, hey, you seem cool, and you just
you just go. But I saidvery very little, very little. I
think I was fifteen or six,maybe fifteen. And to have that kind
(21:10):
of ability to like to adapt tothe energies around you, and read the
room and know when someone's feeling something, or know when they're lying, or
know when they're not being what theirintentions really are, what's someone's motivations?
Why are they actually here? Again, you could say this about corporate America,
but you could also say this aboutjust relationships in general. Like now,
(21:32):
as someone who's you still you stilldo that, but you do that,
you know with your with your career, now, like how do you
do that with your personal life withpersonal relationships? Is it is it harder
for you than it is for asan as an executive or is it the
same or yeah, it's a it'sa great question and one. I mean,
(21:56):
we're all the work in progress.I am absolutely still a work in
progress. You know, this abilityhas actually also been very isolating because you
can imagine being in an intimate relationshipand always feeling how they're feeling even though
they say nothing. It's invasive andit makes you guarded even though the person
(22:21):
has had no communication with you aboutwhy you're retracting. And then the three
relationships that I've had in my adultlife, all people were affected by this
in an unfavorable way, which iswhy now I've been single for ten years,
and I hadn't quite figured out howdo you I mean, this ability
(22:45):
gets less when I'm with a personfor a long period of time, but
it never goes away. And soI spent a lot of time alone,
partly because I just don't want tohave the energy hitting me. But I
haven't quite figured that out yet.So while I'm here, you know,
hopefully helping some other folks identify theirtheir Shane categories and feel empowered to flip
them from less than the more than, the next chapter for me is now
(23:07):
learning how to strip much of thekevlar and the eight feet of concrete walls
that I build around me to survive, because it's not in common with people
that have this kind of trauma thatyou are just incredible at giving out units
of love, but you're really awfulat receeving units of love. Crowd of
where I come. But I haven'tfigured that piece out yet. But yeah,
(23:29):
it's hard. You can either kindof decide or ask yourself the question
do you want to let the firsttwelve, fifteen, or eighteen years of
your life sort of define you?Like what defines you? So when people
ask me that question, I say, oh, you know, I feel
defined by my values, my family, my culture, my religion, you
(23:53):
know, the experiences I've had.But then when you sort of decide to
completely lock out a huge section ofyour life and just be just be this
one other thing, or you say, the first twelve or fifteen or eighteen
years of my life, my childhoodessentially is who I am, and you
(24:17):
kind of hold on to that,you hold on to the past. I
see both as recipes for disaster.So it's kind of the question of how
do you meld the two together andsay, I'm not defined by the first
twelve years of my life, butI'm also not completely defined by you know,
only my career or the past twentyyears of my life. You know,
(24:37):
it's all of it. Let's meldit all together because we're all one,
you know, like you said,ball of dysfunctional perfection essentially, So
how do you find how do youmeld those two together? What does that
look like? Well, it's likeit's still work in progress. Three the
age of three to the age ofeighteen is fifteen years out of a denominator
(25:00):
of seventy eight years. That's twentypercent and those are formative years obviously,
but as I was sharing with you, if you do that in math,
and if you want to let thelast the first twenty percent tank the last
eighty percent, you really should evaluatewhether you're willing to do that. And
(25:22):
I absolutely am not allowing that tohappen. But I have not mastered the
back eighty percent of my life yet. I've been a plowed through a lot
of a lot of stuff in myhead and I haven't quite figured that out.
I'm also incredibly busy right now withwork, and I don't really have
a lot of time, but Iam still a work in progress. I
(25:45):
think when I retire in a coupleof years, it'll give me more time
to think about that when I'm notworking sixty hour work weeks and I'm looking
forward to, you know, growingold with someone. I mean, the
idea is still a super super romanticand interesting and exciting to me. But
obviously I have to work on beingable to receive love in ways that I
(26:07):
haven't. What's interesting all my platonicrelationships. Anyone that knows me, you
know, describes me as a lovebug, right, It's it's really interesting
that all my friendships and platonic Imean, everybody just thinks I like have
like little love hearts is shooting outof my body and the moment that you
apply like an intimacy layer and allof a sudden just gets shut down.
Right, So yeah, so whatnot shut down? There's been progress,
(26:32):
that's me, but I haven't reallymastered that yet. You also kind of
mentioned like a metaphor that I reallyliked. I don't remember. Oh yeah,
yeah, it was like when youhave a metaphorical cage. You were
saying, how you have a keyin your pocket then maybe you don't know
is there I think or you youdon't know. Maybe it's as far down
(26:53):
as you think it is, butyou can reach around and use it to
unlock your your sort of your likeconscious cage. What do you kind of
mean by that? If you wantto break that down? Yeah, well
this was a part of your successfulsales job of getting me to do this
podcasts was a pre conversation about whyI'm the heck would people want to hear
(27:14):
from me? And as I wastelling you the journey I had been on
on this less than the more thanjourney that I always held a metaphor in
my mind very similar to what Ijust talked about twenty percent of your life
is up to age eighteen and eightypercent left. Is whether or not I
wanted to allow myself to be containedin a cage based on all the things
(27:37):
that happened in the first eighteen years, or whether I wanted to get out
of that cage and enjoy life andall the blessings and experiences that life had
to offer. And so that anybodythat has shame about trauma, every single
one of us, either can allowthat shame to represent a cage that we
live in or the key is everyonethat's listening. There is a key that
(28:02):
you possess in your own pocket insideof the cage that's on your person.
You just have to be willing toknow that the key exists and reach around
and unlock the door. And that'spart of why you know, I started
working on this TED talk a fewyears back, when you know, I
want to not be defined by allof this for the rest of my life.
(28:23):
But shame can be very isolating andcan contain you. But there's always
a key in your own pocket.The question is whether you want to acknowledge
it and whether you have the courageto take it out of your pocket reach
around the cage, unlock the door, walk out, and thrive. And
I chose the latter still work inprogress as I mentioned earlier, but don't
(28:45):
allow your shame to put you ina cage. Get your key, unlock
it, and flip all those shameelements from less end. And more than
that, I think people will findthe possibility of flourishing and thriving. Is
there when you have normal conversations withfriends or even colleagues. Is it is
it common for you to easily mentionyour past or is it something that is
(29:10):
completely blocked off or does it takedoes it does it go to a certain
level to sort of go delve intothat uncomfortability a little bit? Yeah,
I describe as that it's it's prettyall the things that I've shared with you
in the podcast today are on pageeight. And what do I mean by
that? It means that I don'tleave with this on the cover of my
(29:32):
book. That's not on the spineof my book. You got to know
me and kind of hang out withme for a little bit, and then
there's never really a big reveal.You just when that time comes and the
page turns. Based on the experienceof relation to page eight, Like all
these things are revealed and or youjust kind of learn them. Like I
don't really have a coming out withpeople where I say I'm gay. I
(29:53):
mean, do you meet people,do you say I'm Mari and I'm straight?
You just just you just kind ofknow, right, And so so
the people that are closest to me, that have been, you know,
in the trenches with me in ameaningful way. At work, I think
everybody knows this story, but it'snot something I lead with. And I
also don't want to be a token. I do not want to become the
(30:15):
face of any one of these specificareas of gay or molestation. That's just
not my calling. So people atwork do know, but the leaders there
know that I really do not wantto be the representation of any of this
stuff, whether it's surviving molestation.And I'm not a sponsor of our employee
(30:37):
gay network. I have no interestin that because I don't do that at
home. Why would I do thatat work? It doesn't make any sense,
but it's created some confusion even whenthe gay community is why does a
gay executive not want to associate withwith? Like? But I don't me
as a gay person is like thethirtieth thing on the list of how I
identify, But there's a bunch oftwenty nine other things that I identify with
(31:00):
first. So right, Yeah,the long way of answering your question who
knows and doesn't know? At workthe story? No, Yeah, I
mean humans are so complex, likethey're not no one. Whether you're the
most simple and minimalistic person on theplanet, you still don't ever fit into
one category, let alone even eventen. Like, people are naturally so
(31:23):
complex, and I don't. Ithink it's I think it's insane. I
think it's kind of wild that peoplewill either be defined by only a certain
percentage of their life or by onething that they possess. You can say
this on a on a on anextreme level, or you can say this
(31:44):
even with me. I mean,I'm not I don't define myself as Oarmenion.
It's not my identity necessarily, it'smy culture, it's my it's my
ethnicity, it's my ethnic identity.But is it like fully who I am.
No, I'm not walking around beinglike Hi, by the way,
I'm Arminion. Or in case youdidn't know before you didn't say my name,
(32:05):
I'm Armenian or before you even knowanything about me. No, I'm
going to say either all of itor you know, you'll just figure it
out along the way. But toto like you said, kind of the
eighth page, I think that's reallya cool way to phrase it, Like
what would be on your first pageor do you really know what would be
your your the opening to your bookif it's not? Uh. I love
(32:32):
human connection that is real, andI pride myself on getting real connection very
very quickly with people that I justmeet. Human connection. I love human
connection one on one. I dovery very well in one on one.
But I think having real authentic relationshipswith people that I meet that are super
(32:53):
special where you know, they knowme, I know them, and just
meeting and being around really really kindand caring, loving people, you know,
being connected to other people that areall from all different walks of life.
(33:13):
If somebody said what I want tobe known for, I think to
being a guy that is just kindto all people, that has the ability
to make connections with all walks oflife that were sincere and authentic, Like
that's what I want to be knownfor. And so yeah, yeah,
but but but but just making surefor anyone that's listening. If your page
(33:35):
one is becoming is being in ourmeeting advocates, then good on you.
Then then go to that, goto that march, or go to those
rights, or if your page oneis on, everybody should be okay,
like whatever your page one is,like that to do you because everybody else
has already taken I'm just saying forme, like the whole gay rights and
that is it's well past page eight. It's maybe like page thirty or forty,
(34:01):
and there's nothing wrong with whatever yourinterests and passions are. That just
happens not to me. On onefor me that's super important in your forties
is when you sort of started toturn things around past seven years. Was
there one what was the light bulbfor you? There? Was it just
generally? What was there one specificexperience, one conversation, one person,
(34:24):
one thought, or was it justthrough time You've seen that sort of build
up and then you sort of hadthat confrontation with yourself and said, you
know what, I'm going to grabthis and I'm going to say I'm going
to be the best in my profession. I'm not going to let this define
me, and I'm just going tobe extremely successful. I think it's probably
(34:45):
a couple of maybe three things.One is age. As you get older,
you get really comfortable on your ownskin, and man like, that's
the beauty of age, even thoughyour body's falling apart and starts to sag
in ways you don't want it tosag. Man, the comfort level of
being okay with who you are isamazing. Gosh, if I would have
(35:05):
had this comfort level and I wastwenty one, I can't even imagine what
I would have done with myself.So I think age is one thing.
I think the other thing is,you know, hitting a certain level of
success after being in an industry,you know, for twenty five years where
everyone knows that you're just a beastand like make a boatload of money for
(35:25):
the company, uber successful, Likewhen you have so many accolades that span
twenty years. No one thing aboutyour past can take all that away.
And so, I mean, Iknow it sounds crazy, but it's like,
if I share this, no onehere can do anything with this information
because I have a career resume thatbasically says that I'm a beast, I'm
(35:47):
a complete successful machine, and anythingof these characteristics or you know, demographic
attributes of my life and background.You don't have squad on me because I
have a success list here or thatthat's beyond what you know in this can
do, and that was super important. And then probably the third thing is
(36:07):
you know, the people that Ihave shared this story with ignausea. I
mean, everybody tells me, holycrap, you should freaking write a book.
This is unbelievable. And I've hadso many people, you know,
who've been so inspired by by mystory, like the ones that really know
me, like at work, thatknow all all sides of me. I
think everybody thinks that it's a reallymisopportunity to not capture some of this in
(36:28):
a way to help other people thatfeel broken and like feel less than because
I mean everywhere you look, anyonethat you see that's uber successful, I
mean they may be at the momentthat you think they're uber successful, feeling
like a complete fish out of waterwith imposter syndrome, and you will never
know because they don't vocalize this stuff. So, you know, the benefit
(36:51):
of doing a book or something likethat would allow people private moments to feel
this in ways that you can't reach. Some otherwise, but I, you
know, I've not done anything likethat. It's it's a lot of time
to write a book, and Ireally don't want this to be about me
in general. But if I everdid pen something like that, my name
and this is not about me.I just I want to be my name
(37:12):
situation. The story itself should helpadvance people's journey with kind of reconciling shame.
But but anyway, those are thethree things age people hearing the story
and say, in my gosh,that's fascinating. You should write a book.
And then it was the third thingI forgot what I had said,
success yeah, success. Yeah.So then what my kind of whole idea
(37:36):
was that I had sort of aperspective from an older generation that has experienced
so much life take to inspire andrelease their wisdom onto the younger generation,
who I think it's very difficult forvery difficult for the younger generation to understand
(38:00):
and the benefit and the advantage frombeing uncomfortable in your own skin. And
obviously, like we talked about before, in the moment, it sucks.
You don't see the benefit, youdon't get it. You just want to
get out whatever that means for thatperson. It could be it could be
(38:21):
trauma, it could be anything.There are so many people, including you,
that are an example of how it'shad a positive outcome. So I
guess, as an older person whohas experienced more life and a lot of
different experiences that you've mentioned, whatdo you have to say to the younger
(38:42):
generation who don't understand the benefit ofembracing the uncomfortable. Yeah, I would
say being intentional in life with everythingyou do is so important, and anytime
a young person is in a momentof uncomfortableness, you should You should be
(39:05):
consciously aware that you are in thatexact moment building a muscle in response to
the uncomfortableness. I'm telling you,if you're going to be really successful,
all these muscles come together to drivesuccess, you know, professionally, personally,
and you should lean into moments ofuncomfortable because they're great muscles and you
need all these different flavors to thriveas a human
Hey, thanks for joining us andtuning in to my podcast, Curious and
Uncomfortable. I'm Niri. You arecreator, producer, and host. This
podcast is an exploratory conversation where twopeople come together and talk about being uncomfortable.
I have guests come on from allover the country, from various walks
(00:20):
of life and unique professions, andtogether we question all things uncomfortable through many
lenses society, lifestyle, politics,culture, and more. In doing this,
our conversations are real, perceptive,and natural. They aren't scripted,
and most of the time they aren'teven really planned. We're just two curious
(00:43):
people eager to answer some questions.So open your mind, listen, and
learn. Let's be curious together.Hey guys, welcome to episode three of
(01:15):
Curious and Uncomfortable. If you're newhere, welcome, If you're not,
welcome back. For this episode,our guest has requested to remain anonymous for
personal and professional reasons, so togive you a little bit of background information
before the episode begins, this personis a family friend, a close friend
(01:38):
to me and my parents. Heis a very successful corporate executive at a
very large company, and this episodecontains a lot of dark and traumatic topics
of discussion involving substance abuse, sexualabuse, and many other things as well.
(02:08):
So this person has been kind enoughto share his story and talk about
how it's led him to where heis today. And this is a very
dark and tragic story that has trulya beautiful outcome. And I really think
(02:29):
a lot of people, whether they'veexperienced the same things or not, can
take a lot of inspiration and gaina tremendous amount of wisdom from this guest.
So with that, let's get curiouswith our anonymous guest. I think
(02:54):
it's the category of a comfortableness ofliving with shame and being able to survive
in the world with a bunch ofshame that has nothing to do with you,
per se in terms of why theshame happened, and trying to show
up in the world. Will youhave this crazy feeling of uncomfortableness, imposter
syndrome, feeling lessly down across multiplecategories and still being able to come across
(03:17):
as somebody who has their act togetherand become a very successful corporate executive.
And it really wasn't until my lateforties where I really started reflecting on all
of my success and I was ableto go back and kind of isolate all
these shame components that I was soscared for people to find out about.
(03:38):
And I was able to isolate specificshame categories as to like corporate muscles that
made me outshine and outperform every singleperson around me. And then I had
a massive sense of gratitude for allof the shame categories because they made me
competitively excellent and they allowed me toride with all of my colleagues in ways
(04:01):
that's almost unfair, because the gravityof the shame gave me just skills that
you only can get from severe trauma. And I never really acknowledge acknowledge that
till later in my career. Andthat's partly because there's nowhere higher I can
go in my company, and Ihave all types of credibility and success,
(04:25):
and at this point in my career, if anybody found out all this,
they would be totally inspired, becausethere's no more promotions that I can gain.
I'm kind of at the top ofmy game. And when you're at
the top of your game, youfeel more comfortable sharing things like this,
and you just get a little bitolder and get really comfortable in your skin.
But I thought this podcast might bean opportunity for anyone else that lives
(04:46):
with shame to find the warrior thatthe shame has given them so that they
can unleash it, harness it,and thrive. Perhaps there's something about my
story and the imposter syndrome that Ifelt for the majority of my life which
will register for other people and tohelp them. I stay in the pocket
of calmness in situations where other peopleblow a gasket, like as the world
(05:11):
goes crazy or I go calmer.Someone can be shouting at my face,
yelling right in front of me,was spit coming out of their mouth,
and I'm unflappable, and people arelike, that's just not normal. I
mean one of my clients back inthe early nineties, one of my clients
got up in a room in myface. Obviously was reprimanded, but literally
(05:32):
got up and just started screaming andsaid I have a gun that's got your
name all over it, like rightin my face, like spit coming out
of his mouth. And I waslike, I was hired by this organization
and everybody was like, how didyou stay so calm? And this is
where I always saying, I'll givetwo shame examples that allowed me to thrive
in that moment. So, first, I had a psychotic one of my
(05:55):
father was was psychologically unstable, wasa lifetime drug abuser and drug dealer,
and he and all of his friendsalways added constant instability around me, whether
they were raging, drugged up,out of their minds, this was always
around me. And like, I'vebeen surrounded by people that were under the
influence of drugs and unstable my entirelife since I was a small kid,
(06:20):
and I knew how to manage them. And my father, who was was
insane, who abused my mother,he abused me. I just I just
kind of was used to being aroundsomebody and have to live with your abuser,
and I could always just stay calm, even though he may be hitting
me or hitting my mother, Ijust stay calm. And so my ability
(06:42):
to stay calm and the craziest ofsituations, that's where like the old version
of it was like, oh,I'm ashamed that my father was a drug
dealer. He came from this,So that was like the that was the
less version. The more than versionof that is I've achieved the ability to
stay calm, cool and collected witheasy people, crazy situations around me,
and that makes me thriving corporate America. So that's when I say from less
(07:06):
than and more than. That's oneexample, and I've literally gone through my
entire life and I can cite specificsituations that have given me competitive advantage in
corporate America. And that's one.And another one in that situation is,
you know, I was molested bymy grandfather when I started when I was
like four years old, and Iused to have to go to his house
(07:29):
because he was my childcare provider,and I dreaded it, and I had
to go there because my parents didn'thave the financial means for me to go
to after school daycare and walking inand knowing that's going to happen and just
kind of land there and taking it. And this is your grandfather, and
I was around him in holidays,Christmases, and this was my abuser.
And I had to stay calm withmy abuser around me all the time,
(07:51):
which is why I cannot lose mymind when someone gets up in the meeting
and says they're going to shoot mewith my gut and they have my name
all over it. I've been surroundedmy users the whole time. I've got
to see my user at Christmas,at my birthday party, and it allows
me to stay calm, cold,and collected. So that's just an example
of shame in two categories and howit gave me competitive advantage. So you
(08:13):
were able to take something so traumaticand horrifying from very very early on in
your life that you're very far fromnow and actually use it to your advantage,
which I feel like is very difficultfor a lot of people to say,
who have dealt with various kinds oftrauma, that it's very difficult to
(08:37):
overcome it and be able to acceptthe fact that it happened and it's a
part of their life, but thento actually use it for competitive advantage,
for success, for corporate success,or just in like interpersonal relationships, like
dealing with someone yelling at you andbeing able to have either absolutely no reaction
(09:01):
at all or being able to notrespond in the same way or be defensive
or whatever. It's like you've beentrained without you having the choice to be
trained, Like you didn't choose totrain yourself to do that, it was
just given to you. Yeah,well, but it took me forty five
years to discover this right. Sofor the first forty to forty five years
(09:22):
of my career, I was justterrified if somebody finding out that I was
a survivor of child molestation. Iwas terrified for people to find out my
father was a drug dealer. Iwas terrified for all these things. For
the first forty five years, Ialways felt like, Gosh, I didn't
go to an Ivy League school.Oh, I grew up in a trailer
park. Oh, I'm a gayguy. Oh my father was a drug
(09:43):
dealer. And all this was inmy head at every meeting with people with
their two thousand dollars suits, withtheir two thousand dollars shoes, and I'm
literally at a table trying to closea deal, and I'm feeling so uncomfortable
in my skin because I feel likeI'm on the outside circle of this incre
But everybody thinks that I'm in thecircle because I appear to be a successful
(10:05):
white man. But the first fortyfive years, I want to make sure
you know that I didn't have theI didn't do this exercise of converting all
the shame from less end categories themore than categories. This is something that's
happened over the last seven years,which is why I was like, man,
this is super powerful, and Iwonder how many other people are really
successful but are also having this feelingof imposter syndrome that haven't acknowledged it.
(10:30):
Because it's really I mean, whenyou really get comfortable with it, it's
really a story of inspiration for alot of people, and in some ways.
I tell my friend's kids who havenormal parents in a normal situation,
they should really think about staging atrauma, and they're like, what do
you mean stage of trauma. I'mlike, your kids are at a competitive
disadvantage because they went to a privateschool. They've had normalcy their entire life,
(10:52):
and they're going to get crushed inthe world. What I'm telling you
is to stage a trauma to stressthem out and make them feel like the
world's going to fall apart. Andthey're like, I can't do that to
my kid. I'm like, well, you should think about that, because
coming from a broken family in acrazy situation is a massive blessing, even
though it sucks growing up growing upwith that story. But well, what's
(11:13):
difficult I think about it is thatin the moment, the child or whoever
it is, the teenager will neverrealize in the moment what it's going to
do for them in the future,because it sucks in the moment, right
when you fail in the moment.It sucks when you're dealing with something super
very traumatic. It's like, yeah, it feels like the world's going to
(11:33):
end and there's no stopping it andwhatever. But then it takes you said
decades, It takes forty years,forty plus years to then realize and look
back on and say, you know, I'm not defined by this section or
portion of my life or my childhoodor whatever has happened to me. Not
only does it not define me,I can actually say kind of thank you,
(11:56):
like thank you for it. Althoughit's it's unfathomable for the average person,
for any person, it's unfathomable.So yeah, well, yeah,
it's interesting. One thing I'll I'llcall it your attention, and I want
everybody who's listening to this podcast tounderstand is a really important principle because when
(12:18):
people learn my story, there islike, oh my gosh, your life's
been so painful. What people don'trealize, Nayri, is that the severity
of trauma the most is the samefor all people, But it's a function
of what's the most severe trauma you'veever encountered. So if you came from
a normal family and the most significanttrauma you've ever experienced is your parents getting
(12:41):
divorced and it completely rocked your world, that feels exactly the same to that
person because they have no reference pointas it does me getting violated by a
relatives as a survivor of child molestation. The human psyche only knows the harshness
that it's been exposed. It knowsright. So the absolute value of your
worst moment is the same for allpeople, and no one should try to
(13:05):
constitute a molestation is worse than yourparents getting divorced. It's not true.
And trauma is only the worst daythat you've known, and those moments stick
with you your whole life. Andfor some people like me, it's like
being in a drug distribution family andother people where it's pretty normal that your
parents get divorced, that your parentsdivorce, and we should just respect that
the pain is the same and notapply other evaluative criteria as to why that's
(13:28):
not as bad as your worst day. So two of the things that I'll
mention in my background that other lessstand more than categories, because ever since
I entered the professional world, myability to sell and close deals was so
far beyond other people that in myorganization earlier in my career, for the
(13:54):
stretch of fifteen years, I hadhigher sales, one of the top sales
in lead of an organization that's goteighty to one hundred thousand people. I
was always at the very top.People are like, oh, my gosh,
you're so incredible at sales. Youknow, how did you get so
good at it? And as Itold you, I didn't go to Ivy
League. I went to these veryaverage schools, and I'd never really share
(14:16):
people, and now that I sharethis, but you know, I started
selling drugs when I was eleven yearsold. So my uncle. My uncle
did pot and cocaine and sold both, and my father was a marijuana a
drug dealer, and I started deliveringdrugs when I was eleven years old on
a bike. And the first drugdeal that I did, it was right
(14:37):
in front of a seven to elevenstore and my father gave me a quarter
arounds of marijuana wrapped in a towel, and I went up and I met
the guy there and he basically saidhe was short of cash and out of
nowhere. I was like, mydad doesn't do IOUs, no cash,
no drugs, And I started developinga whole bunch of sales slogans in other
(14:58):
crazy situations, but like the onemy dad doesn't do, I used their
cash of drugs. I mean,I know it sounds ridiculous, but I
was like eleven years old, Ididn't have a driver's license, and I
started having sales slogans on how thingsworked and not worked, either get out
of a bad deal or deal withpeople. And you transfer that into the
corporate world and you go and you'retrying to get a person to buy something.
(15:22):
Man, you've been doing this sinceyou were eleven years old. And
so it wasn't something I learned itat Harvard. It wasn't something I learned
at Wharton. It's just a streetsmart kid on the street hustling drugs and
doing transactions and knowing how to sayand what not to say in order to
make it go and so make itwork. Rather but like the whole finance,
(15:46):
the first part of my chat withmy career, which was all about
sales and delivery, was completely informedand influenced by the fact that I was
at a master salesman that started whenI was eleven years old, which is
not something you can say about.Yeah, like exactly what you said.
It's never going to really compare tosomeone who's even gone to the highest level
(16:07):
of education possible, has been inthe business or been in that part of
that company for like decades or something. It's never going to compare one.
I think also because it's real worldsituations rather than being taught in a class
or in a school. You know, you've been put on the streets with
(16:30):
real people in a dangerous situation orsomething that can be elevated to something extremely
dangerous. And also that it's notwillingly. It's just something you did or
you had to do, right becauseyou're a kid, so you I mean,
(16:52):
when something's either forced upon you oryou don't have a choice and it's
not in your control, you kindof do the best that you can at
it because you know there's no otheroption. So when you put on the
streets with real people with real money, with real drugs, and you know
(17:12):
the consequences, you're going to putone hundred and ten percent into it,
and you start that at a developmentalage where your brain is not even I
don't even think halfway to being fullydeveloped, because I think it's like twenty
five. So you're you're learning howlife works. You're learning how to like,
(17:33):
you know, make friends and navigateelementary school and know if you want
to be a doctor or a lawyer, and you know things like that,
You're you're not learning that. Sowhen your brain is trained to think that
way, to think in like aselling way. I don't know how you
(17:56):
would phrase that because I don't knowhow that what terminology would be there,
but like to think like a salesman, whether it's with what you do in
your company or whether it's with somethingthat's you know, illegal. I don't
care what school you went to,I don't care how long you've been doing
sales. I will crush you,period. I will crush you. That's
(18:18):
the more the inversion of what usedto be that shame statement and the last
one I would say that's probably beenmy biggest the biggest gift of all the
gifts that I've been given from allof this, uh my life experience and
the shame that has kept me inthe uncomfortable situation for most of my life
is uh, my survival was basedon always scanning a room. My ability
(18:44):
to sense detect human energy is ata level that is beyond what is It's
almost unexplainable in terms of things thatI feel because I'm so in tune with
people's energy that I can tell youthings about their background, how they're feeling,
that they have health complications. AndI know that sounds utterly ridiculous.
You've seen you personally see me dothis, but it is giving me the
(19:11):
ability of human energy connection that isliterally it transcends, it almost transcends the
human experience. It's like I'm connectedto the source of humanity in a way
that I had to be in orderto not die. And it is a
gift that I use every day andevery sales call and how I supervise and
(19:33):
lead people because I know when someone'soff because I can feel it. And
I have historically had incredibly high scoresfor anyone that's worked on my teams for
always wanted to be in my orbitbecause they feel heard, they feel seen,
and they know that they matter.And I have a commitment to all
people. You do you everyone elsehas already taken, and I commit to
(19:56):
working around that. That was highlyinformed by my ability to be so connected
to people's energy and knowing how mybehavior and my actions affect other people.
But that all came that all camefrom being, you know, a ten
year old kid scanning the room incessantlymaking sure nothing crazy was going to happen
to you. And man, Isure regret being in that situation as a
(20:18):
kid, But talk about competitive advantage. I can tell you how people are
feeling in any given moment without themsaying anything to me. And I have
absolutely used that to my benefit incorporate America. You know, as someone
who's who's experienced it and seen itfirsthand, I have to say it's pretty
incredible. Because the first time Imet you, you within would say less
(20:44):
than ten minutes, like told mewho I was, and I was like,
who is this dude? Because Ijust came. I came from downstairs
and I was like, my momjust met this person. And I was
like, oh, oh, hey, you seem cool, and you just
you just go. But I saidvery very little, very little. I
think I was fifteen or six,maybe fifteen. And to have that kind
(21:10):
of ability to like to adapt tothe energies around you, and read the
room and know when someone's feeling something, or know when they're lying, or
know when they're not being what theirintentions really are, what's someone's motivations?
Why are they actually here? Again, you could say this about corporate America,
but you could also say this aboutjust relationships in general. Like now,
(21:32):
as someone who's you still you stilldo that, but you do that,
you know with your with your career, now, like how do you
do that with your personal life withpersonal relationships? Is it is it harder
for you than it is for asan as an executive or is it the
same or yeah, it's a it'sa great question and one. I mean,
(21:56):
we're all the work in progress.I am absolutely still a work in
progress. You know, this abilityhas actually also been very isolating because you
can imagine being in an intimate relationshipand always feeling how they're feeling even though
they say nothing. It's invasive andit makes you guarded even though the person
(22:21):
has had no communication with you aboutwhy you're retracting. And then the three
relationships that I've had in my adultlife, all people were affected by this
in an unfavorable way, which iswhy now I've been single for ten years,
and I hadn't quite figured out howdo you I mean, this ability
(22:45):
gets less when I'm with a personfor a long period of time, but
it never goes away. And soI spent a lot of time alone,
partly because I just don't want tohave the energy hitting me. But I
haven't quite figured that out yet.So while I'm here, you know,
hopefully helping some other folks identify theirtheir Shane categories and feel empowered to flip
them from less than the more than, the next chapter for me is now
(23:07):
learning how to strip much of thekevlar and the eight feet of concrete walls
that I build around me to survive, because it's not in common with people
that have this kind of trauma thatyou are just incredible at giving out units
of love, but you're really awfulat receeving units of love. Crowd of
where I come. But I haven'tfigured that piece out yet. But yeah,
(23:29):
it's hard. You can either kindof decide or ask yourself the question
do you want to let the firsttwelve, fifteen, or eighteen years of
your life sort of define you?Like what defines you? So when people
ask me that question, I say, oh, you know, I feel
defined by my values, my family, my culture, my religion, you
(23:53):
know, the experiences I've had.But then when you sort of decide to
completely lock out a huge section ofyour life and just be just be this
one other thing, or you say, the first twelve or fifteen or eighteen
years of my life, my childhoodessentially is who I am, and you
(24:17):
kind of hold on to that,you hold on to the past. I
see both as recipes for disaster.So it's kind of the question of how
do you meld the two together andsay, I'm not defined by the first
twelve years of my life, butI'm also not completely defined by you know,
only my career or the past twentyyears of my life. You know,
(24:37):
it's all of it. Let's meldit all together because we're all one,
you know, like you said,ball of dysfunctional perfection essentially, So
how do you find how do youmeld those two together? What does that
look like? Well, it's likeit's still work in progress. Three the
age of three to the age ofeighteen is fifteen years out of a denominator
(25:00):
of seventy eight years. That's twentypercent and those are formative years obviously,
but as I was sharing with you, if you do that in math,
and if you want to let thelast the first twenty percent tank the last
eighty percent, you really should evaluatewhether you're willing to do that. And
(25:22):
I absolutely am not allowing that tohappen. But I have not mastered the
back eighty percent of my life yet. I've been a plowed through a lot
of a lot of stuff in myhead and I haven't quite figured that out.
I'm also incredibly busy right now withwork, and I don't really have
a lot of time, but Iam still a work in progress. I
(25:45):
think when I retire in a coupleof years, it'll give me more time
to think about that when I'm notworking sixty hour work weeks and I'm looking
forward to, you know, growingold with someone. I mean, the
idea is still a super super romanticand interesting and exciting to me. But
obviously I have to work on beingable to receive love in ways that I
(26:07):
haven't. What's interesting all my platonicrelationships. Anyone that knows me, you
know, describes me as a lovebug, right, It's it's really interesting
that all my friendships and platonic Imean, everybody just thinks I like have
like little love hearts is shooting outof my body and the moment that you
apply like an intimacy layer and allof a sudden just gets shut down.
Right, So yeah, so whatnot shut down? There's been progress,
(26:32):
that's me, but I haven't reallymastered that yet. You also kind of
mentioned like a metaphor that I reallyliked. I don't remember. Oh yeah,
yeah, it was like when youhave a metaphorical cage. You were
saying, how you have a keyin your pocket then maybe you don't know
is there I think or you youdon't know. Maybe it's as far down
(26:53):
as you think it is, butyou can reach around and use it to
unlock your your sort of your likeconscious cage. What do you kind of
mean by that? If you wantto break that down? Yeah, well
this was a part of your successfulsales job of getting me to do this
podcasts was a pre conversation about whyI'm the heck would people want to hear
(27:14):
from me? And as I wastelling you the journey I had been on
on this less than the more thanjourney that I always held a metaphor in
my mind very similar to what Ijust talked about twenty percent of your life
is up to age eighteen and eightypercent left. Is whether or not I
wanted to allow myself to be containedin a cage based on all the things
(27:37):
that happened in the first eighteen years, or whether I wanted to get out
of that cage and enjoy life andall the blessings and experiences that life had
to offer. And so that anybodythat has shame about trauma, every single
one of us, either can allowthat shame to represent a cage that we
live in or the key is everyonethat's listening. There is a key that
(28:02):
you possess in your own pocket insideof the cage that's on your person.
You just have to be willing toknow that the key exists and reach around
and unlock the door. And that'spart of why you know, I started
working on this TED talk a fewyears back, when you know, I
want to not be defined by allof this for the rest of my life.
(28:23):
But shame can be very isolating andcan contain you. But there's always
a key in your own pocket.The question is whether you want to acknowledge
it and whether you have the courageto take it out of your pocket reach
around the cage, unlock the door, walk out, and thrive. And
I chose the latter still work inprogress as I mentioned earlier, but don't
(28:45):
allow your shame to put you ina cage. Get your key, unlock
it, and flip all those shameelements from less end. And more than
that, I think people will findthe possibility of flourishing and thriving. Is
there when you have normal conversations withfriends or even colleagues. Is it is
it common for you to easily mentionyour past or is it something that is
(29:10):
completely blocked off or does it takedoes it does it go to a certain
level to sort of go delve intothat uncomfortability a little bit? Yeah,
I describe as that it's it's prettyall the things that I've shared with you
in the podcast today are on pageeight. And what do I mean by
that? It means that I don'tleave with this on the cover of my
(29:32):
book. That's not on the spineof my book. You got to know
me and kind of hang out withme for a little bit, and then
there's never really a big reveal.You just when that time comes and the
page turns. Based on the experienceof relation to page eight, Like all
these things are revealed and or youjust kind of learn them. Like I
don't really have a coming out withpeople where I say I'm gay. I
(29:53):
mean, do you meet people,do you say I'm Mari and I'm straight?
You just just you just kind ofknow, right, And so so
the people that are closest to me, that have been, you know,
in the trenches with me in ameaningful way. At work, I think
everybody knows this story, but it'snot something I lead with. And I
also don't want to be a token. I do not want to become the
(30:15):
face of any one of these specificareas of gay or molestation. That's just
not my calling. So people atwork do know, but the leaders there
know that I really do not wantto be the representation of any of this
stuff, whether it's surviving molestation.And I'm not a sponsor of our employee
(30:37):
gay network. I have no interestin that because I don't do that at
home. Why would I do thatat work? It doesn't make any sense,
but it's created some confusion even whenthe gay community is why does a
gay executive not want to associate withwith? Like? But I don't me
as a gay person is like thethirtieth thing on the list of how I
identify, But there's a bunch oftwenty nine other things that I identify with
(31:00):
first. So right, Yeah,the long way of answering your question who
knows and doesn't know? At workthe story? No, Yeah, I
mean humans are so complex, likethey're not no one. Whether you're the
most simple and minimalistic person on theplanet, you still don't ever fit into
one category, let alone even eventen. Like, people are naturally so
(31:23):
complex, and I don't. Ithink it's I think it's insane. I
think it's kind of wild that peoplewill either be defined by only a certain
percentage of their life or by onething that they possess. You can say
this on a on a on anextreme level, or you can say this
(31:44):
even with me. I mean,I'm not I don't define myself as Oarmenion.
It's not my identity necessarily, it'smy culture, it's my it's my
ethnicity, it's my ethnic identity.But is it like fully who I am.
No, I'm not walking around beinglike Hi, by the way,
I'm Arminion. Or in case youdidn't know before you didn't say my name,
(32:05):
I'm Armenian or before you even knowanything about me. No, I'm
going to say either all of itor you know, you'll just figure it
out along the way. But toto like you said, kind of the
eighth page, I think that's reallya cool way to phrase it, Like
what would be on your first pageor do you really know what would be
your your the opening to your bookif it's not? Uh. I love
(32:32):
human connection that is real, andI pride myself on getting real connection very
very quickly with people that I justmeet. Human connection. I love human
connection one on one. I dovery very well in one on one.
But I think having real authentic relationshipswith people that I meet that are super
(32:53):
special where you know, they knowme, I know them, and just
meeting and being around really really kindand caring, loving people, you know,
being connected to other people that areall from all different walks of life.
(33:13):
If somebody said what I want tobe known for, I think to
being a guy that is just kindto all people, that has the ability
to make connections with all walks oflife that were sincere and authentic, Like
that's what I want to be knownfor. And so yeah, yeah,
but but but but just making surefor anyone that's listening. If your page
(33:35):
one is becoming is being in ourmeeting advocates, then good on you.
Then then go to that, goto that march, or go to those
rights, or if your page oneis on, everybody should be okay,
like whatever your page one is,like that to do you because everybody else
has already taken I'm just saying forme, like the whole gay rights and
that is it's well past page eight. It's maybe like page thirty or forty,
(34:01):
and there's nothing wrong with whatever yourinterests and passions are. That just
happens not to me. On onefor me that's super important in your forties
is when you sort of started toturn things around past seven years. Was
there one what was the light bulbfor you? There? Was it just
generally? What was there one specificexperience, one conversation, one person,
(34:24):
one thought, or was it justthrough time You've seen that sort of build
up and then you sort of hadthat confrontation with yourself and said, you
know what, I'm going to grabthis and I'm going to say I'm going
to be the best in my profession. I'm not going to let this define
me, and I'm just going tobe extremely successful. I think it's probably
(34:45):
a couple of maybe three things.One is age. As you get older,
you get really comfortable on your ownskin, and man like, that's
the beauty of age, even thoughyour body's falling apart and starts to sag
in ways you don't want it tosag. Man, the comfort level of
being okay with who you are isamazing. Gosh, if I would have
(35:05):
had this comfort level and I wastwenty one, I can't even imagine what
I would have done with myself.So I think age is one thing.
I think the other thing is,you know, hitting a certain level of
success after being in an industry,you know, for twenty five years where
everyone knows that you're just a beastand like make a boatload of money for
(35:25):
the company, uber successful, Likewhen you have so many accolades that span
twenty years. No one thing aboutyour past can take all that away.
And so, I mean, Iknow it sounds crazy, but it's like,
if I share this, no onehere can do anything with this information
because I have a career resume thatbasically says that I'm a beast, I'm
(35:47):
a complete successful machine, and anythingof these characteristics or you know, demographic
attributes of my life and background.You don't have squad on me because I
have a success list here or thatthat's beyond what you know in this can
do, and that was super important. And then probably the third thing is
(36:07):
you know, the people that Ihave shared this story with ignausea. I
mean, everybody tells me, holycrap, you should freaking write a book.
This is unbelievable. And I've hadso many people, you know,
who've been so inspired by by mystory, like the ones that really know
me, like at work, thatknow all all sides of me. I
think everybody thinks that it's a reallymisopportunity to not capture some of this in
(36:28):
a way to help other people thatfeel broken and like feel less than because
I mean everywhere you look, anyonethat you see that's uber successful, I
mean they may be at the momentthat you think they're uber successful, feeling
like a complete fish out of waterwith imposter syndrome, and you will never
know because they don't vocalize this stuff. So, you know, the benefit
(36:51):
of doing a book or something likethat would allow people private moments to feel
this in ways that you can't reach. Some otherwise, but I, you
know, I've not done anything likethat. It's it's a lot of time
to write a book, and Ireally don't want this to be about me
in general. But if I everdid pen something like that, my name
and this is not about me.I just I want to be my name
(37:12):
situation. The story itself should helpadvance people's journey with kind of reconciling shame.
But but anyway, those are thethree things age people hearing the story
and say, in my gosh,that's fascinating. You should write a book.
And then it was the third thingI forgot what I had said,
success yeah, success. Yeah.So then what my kind of whole idea
(37:36):
was that I had sort of aperspective from an older generation that has experienced
so much life take to inspire andrelease their wisdom onto the younger generation,
who I think it's very difficult forvery difficult for the younger generation to understand
(38:00):
and the benefit and the advantage frombeing uncomfortable in your own skin. And
obviously, like we talked about before, in the moment, it sucks.
You don't see the benefit, youdon't get it. You just want to
get out whatever that means for thatperson. It could be it could be
(38:21):
trauma, it could be anything.There are so many people, including you,
that are an example of how it'shad a positive outcome. So I
guess, as an older person whohas experienced more life and a lot of
different experiences that you've mentioned, whatdo you have to say to the younger
(38:42):
generation who don't understand the benefit ofembracing the uncomfortable. Yeah, I would
say being intentional in life with everythingyou do is so important, and anytime
a young person is in a momentof uncomfortableness, you should You should be
(39:05):
consciously aware that you are in thatexact moment building a muscle in response to
the uncomfortableness. I'm telling you,if you're going to be really successful,
all these muscles come together to drivesuccess, you know, professionally, personally,
and you should lean into moments ofuncomfortable because they're great muscles and you
need all these different flavors to thriveas a human
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.