August 6, 2025 • 23 mins
What is “Mankeeping”? René and Shawn take a look at the latest label that attempts to further define relationships.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Welcome to another Curveball production. This episode might not hit
squarely with every one of our listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
What do they ever do they? I mean some are
the low hanging fruit ones that everybody kind of goes, oh, yeah,
that makes sense, we can go with that. And I mean,
who doesn't like a good podcast on you know, eighties music, right,
So those are easy.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Today's topic is funny to me because I think that
Sean brought it up thinking that him and I were
going to have a lot of good banter, and instead
I went off on the side that I would assume
Sean is somewhat on. I don't know. I went on
for so long. I don't even know what you think
about this.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
That's an excellent point, but yes I did. I was
hoping that at there that I could be a little
bit more provocative and have a little bit more back
and forth on it. But I don't think that's gonna happen.
But that's not going to limit to us, and it's
not It's still gonna be enjoyable for the listener, correct,
I hope?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
So, well, perhaps you could man explain to everybody what
this podcast is going to be about.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Well, while I while I'm man sprawl or man spread, good,
man spread. Don't worry. We're not gonna get into man escaping,
as your dad brought up. It's not anything to.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Wait a second, you can't throw my dad under the
bus like that brought it. Dad didn't bring it up.
You asked my dad if he had ever heard the
term man keeping, and he said, is that like man scaping?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Correct? So he brought it up.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Okay, so out of context. That sounds like a weird
conversation to have with my dad.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
There was a lot of weird conversations over the weekend.
But the Yeah, so I ran across the term man
keeping and I'd never heard what. I never heard of
it before.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I was disappointed to learn that it wasn't me chaining
you up in the basement.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Correct. Oh wait, very misery, like she's got me.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Uh, I'm your biggest man.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Moll hobbled and uh. And so what we did is
I took a look at h I'm like, okay, what
is this man keeping? And why is it around? And
what does it mean? Well, it's actually a little convoluted,
and you can tell by it was it's it's the
term originated from a from a paper that was published
(02:31):
just in October of twenty twenty four, so it's a
new term.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Sure, And because is this not a Stanford again.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yes, Stanford University in the let me just say it
was in the.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
First newspaper California.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
It was in the the peer reviewed paper Psychology of
Men and Masculinities, Okay, and the title was theorizing man keeping,
the male friendship recession and women's associated labor as a
structural component of gender inequality. That lazy, I think that's
(03:06):
all you need to say about it podcast. Basically, what
man keeping is, it's this phenomenon that that they do
that they talk into in the social social world of
women who are taking over for their men, and they
are taking over the given helping them with their emotional support,
(03:29):
helping them with skills and in groups.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And their social circles, social calendars.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Helping them, helping them be more social because there is
a recept according to them, there's a recession of men
in groups these days, so men do not have have
friends with other men.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Well, the funny thing is you had mentioned that there
was a Saturday Live skit where a bunch of women
brought their partners to a park of sorts, kind of
like you might do with your dog, like bring the
men to bring your dog to a dog park so
it can socialize. And there was some skit that I
haven't seen yet on SNL where that's what women were doing,
(04:13):
bringing their men to a park so that they could
learn to socialize.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
With the women that sit are on the outside in
this park and the men kind of frolic in the middle,
becoming getting different mean friends.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Obviously it's satire to some degree, correct.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
But that's that's the the the premise behind it is
that much like a man splaining, if if you're familiar
with that term that's been around forever, it's when a
male attempts to basically dumb down a topic so that
a feet so that women can understand it. Going from
(04:47):
the assumption that the that there's no way the female
can understand it.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Here we go. You just you just slawn me up.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I just explained man's plain, man's plaining.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Well though, yeah, true. But the thing is is there
was another word for that for many many years. It
was called patronizing, right, okay, which I guess patron also
paternal probably comes from the word of man. But anyway,
I feel like I just slipped into my big fat
Greek wedding analysis. But the point being, there was a
word for that. It was any time somebody was explaining
(05:19):
something and acting superior, it didn't have to be a man.
And I think this is the part where my head
just starts to explode because I am so tired of
the whining. I really am, and I'm a woman, and
I believe in equal rights, and I believe in all
of the things that the feminists have earned and fought
for before us. But isn't it time to give it
(05:41):
a rest? I'm so tired of Oh, look at the man,
sprawl on him. Look at Oh. I didn't appreciate him
man explaining this to me? He wasn't He was patronizing you.
He was patronizing everyone in the room, and men man's
blain to other men. It's called patronizing. Right, So when
now they come up with this word man, and I
looked at you like, are you crazy? Like we have
(06:04):
spent all this time, right, the world is telling men,
we're raising our young boys to be able to show
their emotion to a kinder, gentler world, if you will.
That's kind of the mo in education and in parenting
books and all of this right, So we're encouraging men
to share their emotions, and we also and this is
(06:28):
gonna be me with blanket statements across the board. So
send your hate mail. It's fine, I can take it.
But as women, for quite a few decades, people have
been complaining that men are spending too much time with
their buddies. They're out on the golf course, they're at
the bar, they're at the bowling league. They're hanging out
(06:50):
with their buddies too much. And as the fairer sex,
if you will, people have been complaining about that and
wanting their partners, their men, to be home and centered
on the family and be there for the kids. And
you know what, open up and share your feelings with me.
I want to know what's going on in your life.
And now we have this derogatory term called man keeping
(07:13):
because now women, not all, but the women who are
involved in this study are saying, you know, this isn't fair.
It's too much of an emotional burden for me to
have to listen to my husband's emotional conversations and help
him with his socializing.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Part that yes, it's part of that's it's helping when
when the female in the group has to help with
building their social networks. You know, there's a study out
there and that basically the results of it show that
when a man and a woman are in a romantic relationship,
(07:53):
there's a circle of friends, and when that couple breaks up,
the female holds on the friends and the male generally
does not sure and that then hurts that whole cycle
of of friends, that the that the men, that the
that the males can have to help them with their
again social networks, their social skills, which kills me. I mean,
(08:17):
so this is this is where I got a little
I don't know what the word is.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Fired up.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Sure we'll go fired up, but okay, so and again
this is all this all predicated this man keeping. It's
it's it's it's basically females who feel that they are
putting forth all this labor. Men look at what this
whole process of you know, sharing emotions, social skills, all
those things as just part of a relationship and how
(08:44):
it goes. And this is how this all you build
a relationship, and the females look at it as labor
because they feel that they're giving more into it than
the males are. And that's why the male can come
back and say that it's just a relationship thing, where
the female thinks of it more as a labor because
they're going after it well.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
And I think that, I mean, and now I'm going
to sort of play Devil's advocate here. It's because I
don't think and you've taught me this, and other relationships
have taught me this. I don't think men are going
around thinking about their relationships as much as women are.
I think in many cases, and this is another blanket
statement Byrone, but in many cases, men go along and
(09:25):
are living their lives and if they are married and
have a family, and this is primarily heterosexual conversation. Okay,
I really can't speak to any other situation, but I
think that many men go through their relationships and their
families and they assume everything is fine until it's not okay.
So they're not thinking about how could I improve my marriage,
(09:48):
how could I improve my relationship. They're assuming that unless
they're getting pushed back from their partner, everything's fine. And
so when they're leaning in and they're coming home and
telling their partner about day at work and things like that,
they're not looking at it as labor or work for
their partner. They're thinking this is just the give and take,
(10:08):
and so for the woman in the relationship then to
be suddenly burdened or to look at it differently, because
as as a card carrying member of the overthinking club,
you know, you're probably looking more at Oh, you know,
do we need to spend more time together? Do we,
you know, have enough quality time? Do we see his
family enough? Do we see our family enough? I don't
(10:29):
know that it's I don't think it's anything men are
insisting women do. I think that some of us just
do it right. And I don't think it's because society
expects it. I think it's how we're wired, whether we
like it or not. Most women are wired a little
bit more family set, more nurturing, more nurturing, and I mean,
(10:50):
there's nothing wrong with that. But I do feel like
in today's day, and I mean, I get it now,
women are you know, obviously most of us are working
outside the home and have big careers and are demanding
the same income for the same jobs. And they should.
But that doesn't mean that somehow it's more work for
you to just be who you are. I've never if
you started, if you didn't tell me how you were feeling.
(11:12):
And we're not married or anything, but obviously we have
a relatively healthy relationship. If relatively that's kind of funny.
But I mean, if you didn't share those things with me,
I would wonder what's up. I would then think we
didn't have a great relationship.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
And that is part of the dynamic. And that's part
of this whole of this man keeping that I just
still am trying to wrap my head around because it
what for me, it's okay. As they brought it into
this article, it was that mankeeping revolves around three three
parts emotional support, which you talked about, building the social
(11:51):
networks and teaching social skills, and those are the things
that the female feels that they it's their labor that
they have to do for or the men. And then
I look at it and go, okay, that's fine. But
the opposite side of that is the mail then goes
and says, Okay, I'll go out and get my friends.
(12:11):
I'll go out and do my own my own social networking.
I'll go out and figure out the you know, social
skills with other by just hanging out with other men
and then come home with those and then what happens, Well,
I think so it's almost like it. It feels to
me that the women who are upset about this and
feel that it's a labor are the women who are
(12:32):
out there trying to mold their man to be in
a certain way.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I'm really glad you brought that up, because the way
I look at it is it's a control mechanism. It's
labor because you're trying to assert control over a situation,
over another human being. For instance, you mentioned social skills.
If we're sitting at the dinner table and you happen
to pick up a bowl of soup and drink out
of the bowl of soup instead of using your spoon,
(12:59):
and we are at I don't know, Ruth, Chris or
I don't know, someplace we would never go. But if
if we were at fine dining and you know, you
start slurping your soup from the side of the bowl,
I would probably give you a nudge under the table.
Now it's a in a bug in a bug, And
I'm just thinking, like, if we're at the kitchen table,
like of course, right, but some of those social I
(13:21):
don't know the why can I think of it like
there's a word and now it's escaping me. But regardless.
But the truth of the matter is, if you pick
up a bowl of soup. By the way, Sean's never
done this in front of me, But if you pick
up a bowl of soup and drink it at a
nice restaurant, I'm the only one that's going to care.
If you're doing it, you don't care. And so the
(13:44):
load is is that I'm caring about things that my
partner may or may not care about. So same thing
with your friends, or your emotions or the way you're
handling anything in your life. To me, the people who
are complaining about it being a mental load means that
they're trying trying to change or control the way another
person behaves or thinks. And to me, that doesn't seem
(14:06):
healthy at all.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
It doesn't, and it gives a significant not an out
for the people who feel that they're, you know, this
man keeping is an issue thing because they're they're basically
they're they're you know, blaming society and men in general
for making their lives more difficult, and why can't they
(14:28):
figure it out for themselves?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
One might say, one not this person, right, but one
might say we've created our own problem here as women
have become who we are with the same abilities and
job titles and the dual income families and the supposed
(14:50):
to share with the work around the home and all
that kind of stuff, we've created a situation where now
we kind of want to backpedal over some of those things.
And it's like, basically, to me, it's something that's near
and dear to my heart. You want your cake and
you want to eat it too, and it's like, I
don't for the life of me. And I'm sure a
(15:12):
smarter person will come tell me this in a way
that maybe helps me wrap my brain around it. But
I don't think you can have it both ways. I
think you can be an empowered woman. I think you
can work or choose not to work whatever works for you.
I think that you can have a healthy relationship. But
the people that are truly complaining about this, I don't
think they're in a healthy relationship. And I would say,
(15:34):
why did you choose your partner, because if that's not
working for you, he wasn't the guy for you.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
And they're using and they are it is being used
even though it's like I said, it's a relatively new term.
They brought up in one of the articles I was
reading that it is now becoming an excuse or a
reason to leave relationships and to be and to not
be happy in your relationship is because you have to
(16:00):
man keep for your man. And they bring up it's
like any label that's put out there, especially today, any
label that is given to anything, it grows and it
becomes more than what it was initially wanting to be.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Right, well, to me, it seems like it was. It's
a closer relation to when recently there's been a lot
of discussion about the mental load women carry in relationships.
It's basically a different way of saying it right. And
people are upset because and I mean, I do this.
I even did this after I was divorced. I still
ran the family calendar. I made sure that the kid's
(16:35):
dad knew when conferences were and when games were and
how to get there and did you get your hotel? Now.
I didn't have to do those things. Nobody said I
had to do them, But that's who I am, and
those were choices I made.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And those and that is that is actually the great
example of what they gave for this term man keeping
taking on a life of its own right, because what
you were describing is not what their description or what
they came out with with their idea of man keeping was. Okay,
man keeping strictly was the emotional and the emotional support
(17:09):
and the the teaching social social skills to men who
do no longer have that network of men to be
a part of and women have to take that over
to make it part of it.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
So my question is then, do we want guys to
have friends and go spend time with them, or as women,
do we want them home correct their families and not
having that social outlet.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
The you know the again. So the where this man
keeping comes into play is yes, the goal behind this
labor as they see it, is to get the men in,
you know, put the suit and tie on them. So
then kick them out the door first day of school
and say we've taught you everything you know need. Now
go out there and take care of business and be
(18:00):
that person that we've now taught you. We've given you
the skills. Now it's your time you turned to go
out there.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
This is so patronizing.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
On the flip side, is yeah, So that is that
is the part of the man keeping. But again it's
the labor part of it that the on the female side,
They're like, this is work for us to do, and
and I'm not getting it from the men. The men
are not giving me social skills, they're not giving me
the support that I need.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
But again, then perhaps you picked the wrong partner, That's
what I'm saying, because you are very much that person.
You helped me with social situations or emotional situations or
I mean, like, isn't that the give and take of
our relationship? You are I just was saying, and I
mean this this made me sound like I'm gloating a
little bit, but but no, really, you need you can't
(18:46):
just you need to make sure you find somebody who's
compatible with the way your brain works or what you
perceive to be a mental load, right and.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
By and what does and by having this term available
for you as an individual as a female, not you specifically,
but in general as a female, what does that give you?
What does that just having to be able to go, oh, yeah,
you know what, yes, mankeeping? That now I get it. Now,
I'm I understand. Now there's a word out there that
(19:18):
I can use so that people know what I'm going
through in my relationship.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
I guess. I mean, I think it used to be
more of a funny thing, right, People would make jokes
about you know, well, obviously I have a lot on
my mind because I have the whole running of the
household in my head, and I have to figure out
what we're having for dinner for the next I don't know,
forty years, and you know, all those types of things.
But so it's kind of an addition to those types
(19:43):
of mental loads, right, And I just feel like I
don't respect this one. I just don't not the podcast.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
She respects the podcast.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
I do respect the podcast. I don't respect this idea
that now we're gonna tell men whether or not they
should have social circles or we're going to be mad
about them having them or not having them.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
It's not so much telling them and being mad at
them for having them or not having them. It's just
the understanding so that people can understand the labor that
you're putting into giving them that.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Well, what do you get from that? What about the
labor that, yes, your partner puts into other aspects of
your relationship, Like I don't know, like taking your Okay,
this is going to really solid sexist, but like you
take my car and get it washed a lot, and
that is alleviates a labor for me. I mean, this
is an you know. I mean we could talk about
(20:37):
you know, love languages and acts of service and all
that kind of stuff, but I mean, don't you just
need to find somebody compatible where? I mean, if you're
with somebody that doesn't contribute anything to your relationship or
your family and it's this big drain on you, well,
then I guess you have your answer.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
And if you're with the male partner and you're upset
because you have to him out the door because you
want him to have more friends, I mean, what if
he's just happy being with you?
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Right?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
And the other thing is so many people. I mean,
it is true that oftentimes men, once they're partnered up
end up being friends with the male partners of the
female's friends. Right. So like in heterosexual relationships, often it's
like your friend group. And we've talked about this through divorce, right,
Like some of the friends that you're friends with initially
(21:29):
you're not as friendly with anymore because the women are
still friends. But the guys were friends more or less
because they were introduced through the wives and that sort
of thing, and that's normal, no different than oftentimes families
gravitate towards the woman's family depending on location and things
like that. But simply because she's probably the one with
(21:50):
the social calendar, she's probably the one that cares more
about deliberate attempts to make connections and stay connected, because again,
we're more nurturers, and oftentimes the guys just go with
the flow. And is it fair or right, I don't know,
but I can't believe we need a whole term to
be angry about, but.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
We have it, lucky for us. I don't know that
anybody listening now knows any more about it than when
they started, when they knew nothing right, But it is
an interesting it is an interesting concept, and it's an
interesting again label and just going through the whole process
(22:30):
of understanding how the labels that are out there, where
they come from, and how those labels just grow to
be something totally different than what they originated at. And
it's just it's just not necessary.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
That's true. And as I think about the women listening,
and I know how exhausted so many of us are,
the men are exhausted too, and that's all I'm going
to say. It might look different, it might show itself differently,
but as we continue to take on the world and
be all that we can be, we're all going to
be a little bit tired, and I think we need
to show each other some grace throughout this process.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
I am going to now give you all of my
emotion that I'm feeling right now, and then we can
eat the meat loaf that I made last night.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
And this has been another Curveball production.
Welcome to another Curveball production. This episode might not hit
squarely with every one of our listeners.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
What do they ever do they? I mean some are
the low hanging fruit ones that everybody kind of goes, oh, yeah,
that makes sense, we can go with that. And I mean,
who doesn't like a good podcast on you know, eighties music, right,
So those are easy.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Today's topic is funny to me because I think that
Sean brought it up thinking that him and I were
going to have a lot of good banter, and instead
I went off on the side that I would assume
Sean is somewhat on. I don't know. I went on
for so long. I don't even know what you think
about this.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
That's an excellent point, but yes I did. I was
hoping that at there that I could be a little
bit more provocative and have a little bit more back
and forth on it. But I don't think that's gonna happen.
But that's not going to limit to us, and it's
not It's still gonna be enjoyable for the listener, correct,
I hope?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
So, well, perhaps you could man explain to everybody what
this podcast is going to be about.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Well, while I while I'm man sprawl or man spread, good,
man spread. Don't worry. We're not gonna get into man escaping,
as your dad brought up. It's not anything to.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Wait a second, you can't throw my dad under the
bus like that brought it. Dad didn't bring it up.
You asked my dad if he had ever heard the
term man keeping, and he said, is that like man scaping?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Correct? So he brought it up.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Okay, so out of context. That sounds like a weird
conversation to have with my dad.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
There was a lot of weird conversations over the weekend.
But the Yeah, so I ran across the term man
keeping and I'd never heard what. I never heard of
it before.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I was disappointed to learn that it wasn't me chaining
you up in the basement.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Correct. Oh wait, very misery, like she's got me.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Uh, I'm your biggest man.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Moll hobbled and uh. And so what we did is
I took a look at h I'm like, okay, what
is this man keeping? And why is it around? And
what does it mean? Well, it's actually a little convoluted,
and you can tell by it was it's it's the
term originated from a from a paper that was published
(02:31):
just in October of twenty twenty four, so it's a
new term.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Sure, And because is this not a Stanford again.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yes, Stanford University in the let me just say it
was in the.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
First newspaper California.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
It was in the the peer reviewed paper Psychology of
Men and Masculinities, Okay, and the title was theorizing man keeping,
the male friendship recession and women's associated labor as a
structural component of gender inequality. That lazy, I think that's
(03:06):
all you need to say about it podcast. Basically, what
man keeping is, it's this phenomenon that that they do
that they talk into in the social social world of
women who are taking over for their men, and they
are taking over the given helping them with their emotional support,
(03:29):
helping them with skills and in groups.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And their social circles, social calendars.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Helping them, helping them be more social because there is
a recept according to them, there's a recession of men
in groups these days, so men do not have have
friends with other men.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Well, the funny thing is you had mentioned that there
was a Saturday Live skit where a bunch of women
brought their partners to a park of sorts, kind of
like you might do with your dog, like bring the
men to bring your dog to a dog park so
it can socialize. And there was some skit that I
haven't seen yet on SNL where that's what women were doing,
(04:13):
bringing their men to a park so that they could
learn to socialize.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
With the women that sit are on the outside in
this park and the men kind of frolic in the middle,
becoming getting different mean friends.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Obviously it's satire to some degree, correct.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
But that's that's the the the premise behind it is
that much like a man splaining, if if you're familiar
with that term that's been around forever, it's when a
male attempts to basically dumb down a topic so that
a feet so that women can understand it. Going from
(04:47):
the assumption that the that there's no way the female
can understand it.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Here we go. You just you just slawn me up.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I just explained man's plain, man's plaining.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Well though, yeah, true. But the thing is is there
was another word for that for many many years. It
was called patronizing, right, okay, which I guess patron also
paternal probably comes from the word of man. But anyway,
I feel like I just slipped into my big fat
Greek wedding analysis. But the point being, there was a
word for that. It was any time somebody was explaining
(05:19):
something and acting superior, it didn't have to be a man.
And I think this is the part where my head
just starts to explode because I am so tired of
the whining. I really am, and I'm a woman, and
I believe in equal rights, and I believe in all
of the things that the feminists have earned and fought
for before us. But isn't it time to give it
(05:41):
a rest? I'm so tired of Oh, look at the man,
sprawl on him. Look at Oh. I didn't appreciate him
man explaining this to me? He wasn't He was patronizing you.
He was patronizing everyone in the room, and men man's
blain to other men. It's called patronizing. Right, So when
now they come up with this word man, and I
looked at you like, are you crazy? Like we have
(06:04):
spent all this time, right, the world is telling men,
we're raising our young boys to be able to show
their emotion to a kinder, gentler world, if you will.
That's kind of the mo in education and in parenting
books and all of this right, So we're encouraging men
to share their emotions, and we also and this is
(06:28):
gonna be me with blanket statements across the board. So
send your hate mail. It's fine, I can take it.
But as women, for quite a few decades, people have
been complaining that men are spending too much time with
their buddies. They're out on the golf course, they're at
the bar, they're at the bowling league. They're hanging out
(06:50):
with their buddies too much. And as the fairer sex,
if you will, people have been complaining about that and
wanting their partners, their men, to be home and centered
on the family and be there for the kids. And
you know what, open up and share your feelings with me.
I want to know what's going on in your life.
And now we have this derogatory term called man keeping
(07:13):
because now women, not all, but the women who are
involved in this study are saying, you know, this isn't fair.
It's too much of an emotional burden for me to
have to listen to my husband's emotional conversations and help
him with his socializing.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Part that yes, it's part of that's it's helping when
when the female in the group has to help with
building their social networks. You know, there's a study out
there and that basically the results of it show that
when a man and a woman are in a romantic relationship,
(07:53):
there's a circle of friends, and when that couple breaks up,
the female holds on the friends and the male generally
does not sure and that then hurts that whole cycle
of of friends, that the that the men, that the
that the males can have to help them with their
again social networks, their social skills, which kills me. I mean,
(08:17):
so this is this is where I got a little
I don't know what the word is.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
Fired up.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Sure we'll go fired up, but okay, so and again
this is all this all predicated this man keeping. It's
it's it's it's basically females who feel that they are
putting forth all this labor. Men look at what this
whole process of you know, sharing emotions, social skills, all
those things as just part of a relationship and how
(08:44):
it goes. And this is how this all you build
a relationship, and the females look at it as labor
because they feel that they're giving more into it than
the males are. And that's why the male can come
back and say that it's just a relationship thing, where
the female thinks of it more as a labor because
they're going after it well.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
And I think that, I mean, and now I'm going
to sort of play Devil's advocate here. It's because I
don't think and you've taught me this, and other relationships
have taught me this. I don't think men are going
around thinking about their relationships as much as women are.
I think in many cases, and this is another blanket
statement Byrone, but in many cases, men go along and
(09:25):
are living their lives and if they are married and
have a family, and this is primarily heterosexual conversation. Okay,
I really can't speak to any other situation, but I
think that many men go through their relationships and their
families and they assume everything is fine until it's not okay.
So they're not thinking about how could I improve my marriage,
(09:48):
how could I improve my relationship. They're assuming that unless
they're getting pushed back from their partner, everything's fine. And
so when they're leaning in and they're coming home and
telling their partner about day at work and things like that,
they're not looking at it as labor or work for
their partner. They're thinking this is just the give and take,
(10:08):
and so for the woman in the relationship then to
be suddenly burdened or to look at it differently, because
as as a card carrying member of the overthinking club,
you know, you're probably looking more at Oh, you know,
do we need to spend more time together? Do we,
you know, have enough quality time? Do we see his
family enough? Do we see our family enough? I don't
(10:29):
know that it's I don't think it's anything men are
insisting women do. I think that some of us just
do it right. And I don't think it's because society
expects it. I think it's how we're wired, whether we
like it or not. Most women are wired a little
bit more family set, more nurturing, more nurturing, and I mean,
(10:50):
there's nothing wrong with that. But I do feel like
in today's day, and I mean, I get it now,
women are you know, obviously most of us are working
outside the home and have big careers and are demanding
the same income for the same jobs. And they should.
But that doesn't mean that somehow it's more work for
you to just be who you are. I've never if
you started, if you didn't tell me how you were feeling.
(11:12):
And we're not married or anything, but obviously we have
a relatively healthy relationship. If relatively that's kind of funny.
But I mean, if you didn't share those things with me,
I would wonder what's up. I would then think we
didn't have a great relationship.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
And that is part of the dynamic. And that's part
of this whole of this man keeping that I just
still am trying to wrap my head around because it
what for me, it's okay. As they brought it into
this article, it was that mankeeping revolves around three three
parts emotional support, which you talked about, building the social
(11:51):
networks and teaching social skills, and those are the things
that the female feels that they it's their labor that
they have to do for or the men. And then
I look at it and go, okay, that's fine. But
the opposite side of that is the mail then goes
and says, Okay, I'll go out and get my friends.
(12:11):
I'll go out and do my own my own social networking.
I'll go out and figure out the you know, social
skills with other by just hanging out with other men
and then come home with those and then what happens, Well,
I think so it's almost like it. It feels to
me that the women who are upset about this and
feel that it's a labor are the women who are
(12:32):
out there trying to mold their man to be in
a certain way.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I'm really glad you brought that up, because the way
I look at it is it's a control mechanism. It's
labor because you're trying to assert control over a situation,
over another human being. For instance, you mentioned social skills.
If we're sitting at the dinner table and you happen
to pick up a bowl of soup and drink out
of the bowl of soup instead of using your spoon,
(12:59):
and we are at I don't know, Ruth, Chris or
I don't know, someplace we would never go. But if
if we were at fine dining and you know, you
start slurping your soup from the side of the bowl,
I would probably give you a nudge under the table.
Now it's a in a bug in a bug, And
I'm just thinking, like, if we're at the kitchen table,
like of course, right, but some of those social I
(13:21):
don't know the why can I think of it like
there's a word and now it's escaping me. But regardless.
But the truth of the matter is, if you pick
up a bowl of soup. By the way, Sean's never
done this in front of me, But if you pick
up a bowl of soup and drink it at a
nice restaurant, I'm the only one that's going to care.
If you're doing it, you don't care. And so the
(13:44):
load is is that I'm caring about things that my
partner may or may not care about. So same thing
with your friends, or your emotions or the way you're
handling anything in your life. To me, the people who
are complaining about it being a mental load means that
they're trying trying to change or control the way another
person behaves or thinks. And to me, that doesn't seem
(14:06):
healthy at all.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
It doesn't, and it gives a significant not an out
for the people who feel that they're, you know, this
man keeping is an issue thing because they're they're basically
they're they're you know, blaming society and men in general
for making their lives more difficult, and why can't they
(14:28):
figure it out for themselves?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
One might say, one not this person, right, but one
might say we've created our own problem here as women
have become who we are with the same abilities and
job titles and the dual income families and the supposed
(14:50):
to share with the work around the home and all
that kind of stuff, we've created a situation where now
we kind of want to backpedal over some of those things.
And it's like, basically, to me, it's something that's near
and dear to my heart. You want your cake and
you want to eat it too, and it's like, I
don't for the life of me. And I'm sure a
(15:12):
smarter person will come tell me this in a way
that maybe helps me wrap my brain around it. But
I don't think you can have it both ways. I
think you can be an empowered woman. I think you
can work or choose not to work whatever works for you.
I think that you can have a healthy relationship. But
the people that are truly complaining about this, I don't
think they're in a healthy relationship. And I would say,
(15:34):
why did you choose your partner, because if that's not
working for you, he wasn't the guy for you.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
And they're using and they are it is being used
even though it's like I said, it's a relatively new term.
They brought up in one of the articles I was
reading that it is now becoming an excuse or a
reason to leave relationships and to be and to not
be happy in your relationship is because you have to
(16:00):
man keep for your man. And they bring up it's
like any label that's put out there, especially today, any
label that is given to anything, it grows and it
becomes more than what it was initially wanting to be.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Right, well, to me, it seems like it was. It's
a closer relation to when recently there's been a lot
of discussion about the mental load women carry in relationships.
It's basically a different way of saying it right. And
people are upset because and I mean, I do this.
I even did this after I was divorced. I still
ran the family calendar. I made sure that the kid's
(16:35):
dad knew when conferences were and when games were and
how to get there and did you get your hotel? Now.
I didn't have to do those things. Nobody said I
had to do them, But that's who I am, and
those were choices I made.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
And those and that is that is actually the great
example of what they gave for this term man keeping
taking on a life of its own right, because what
you were describing is not what their description or what
they came out with with their idea of man keeping was. Okay,
man keeping strictly was the emotional and the emotional support
(17:09):
and the the teaching social social skills to men who
do no longer have that network of men to be
a part of and women have to take that over
to make it part of it.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
So my question is then, do we want guys to
have friends and go spend time with them, or as women,
do we want them home correct their families and not
having that social outlet.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
The you know the again. So the where this man
keeping comes into play is yes, the goal behind this
labor as they see it, is to get the men in,
you know, put the suit and tie on them. So
then kick them out the door first day of school
and say we've taught you everything you know need. Now
go out there and take care of business and be
(18:00):
that person that we've now taught you. We've given you
the skills. Now it's your time you turned to go
out there.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
This is so patronizing.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
On the flip side, is yeah, So that is that
is the part of the man keeping. But again it's
the labor part of it that the on the female side,
They're like, this is work for us to do, and
and I'm not getting it from the men. The men
are not giving me social skills, they're not giving me
the support that I need.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
But again, then perhaps you picked the wrong partner, That's
what I'm saying, because you are very much that person.
You helped me with social situations or emotional situations or
I mean, like, isn't that the give and take of
our relationship? You are I just was saying, and I
mean this this made me sound like I'm gloating a
little bit, but but no, really, you need you can't
(18:46):
just you need to make sure you find somebody who's
compatible with the way your brain works or what you
perceive to be a mental load, right and.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
By and what does and by having this term available
for you as an individual as a female, not you specifically,
but in general as a female, what does that give you?
What does that just having to be able to go, oh, yeah,
you know what, yes, mankeeping? That now I get it. Now,
I'm I understand. Now there's a word out there that
(19:18):
I can use so that people know what I'm going
through in my relationship.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
I guess. I mean, I think it used to be
more of a funny thing, right, People would make jokes
about you know, well, obviously I have a lot on
my mind because I have the whole running of the
household in my head, and I have to figure out
what we're having for dinner for the next I don't know,
forty years, and you know, all those types of things.
But so it's kind of an addition to those types
(19:43):
of mental loads, right, And I just feel like I
don't respect this one. I just don't not the podcast.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
She respects the podcast.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
I do respect the podcast. I don't respect this idea
that now we're gonna tell men whether or not they
should have social circles or we're going to be mad
about them having them or not having them.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
It's not so much telling them and being mad at
them for having them or not having them. It's just
the understanding so that people can understand the labor that
you're putting into giving them that.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Well, what do you get from that? What about the
labor that, yes, your partner puts into other aspects of
your relationship, Like I don't know, like taking your Okay,
this is going to really solid sexist, but like you
take my car and get it washed a lot, and
that is alleviates a labor for me. I mean, this
is an you know. I mean we could talk about
(20:37):
you know, love languages and acts of service and all
that kind of stuff, but I mean, don't you just
need to find somebody compatible where? I mean, if you're
with somebody that doesn't contribute anything to your relationship or
your family and it's this big drain on you, well,
then I guess you have your answer.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
And if you're with the male partner and you're upset
because you have to him out the door because you
want him to have more friends, I mean, what if
he's just happy being with you?
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Right?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Right?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
And the other thing is so many people. I mean,
it is true that oftentimes men, once they're partnered up
end up being friends with the male partners of the
female's friends. Right. So like in heterosexual relationships, often it's
like your friend group. And we've talked about this through divorce, right,
Like some of the friends that you're friends with initially
(21:29):
you're not as friendly with anymore because the women are
still friends. But the guys were friends more or less
because they were introduced through the wives and that sort
of thing, and that's normal, no different than oftentimes families
gravitate towards the woman's family depending on location and things
like that. But simply because she's probably the one with
(21:50):
the social calendar, she's probably the one that cares more
about deliberate attempts to make connections and stay connected, because again,
we're more nurturers, and oftentimes the guys just go with
the flow. And is it fair or right, I don't know,
but I can't believe we need a whole term to
be angry about, but.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
We have it, lucky for us. I don't know that
anybody listening now knows any more about it than when
they started, when they knew nothing right, But it is
an interesting it is an interesting concept, and it's an
interesting again label and just going through the whole process
(22:30):
of understanding how the labels that are out there, where
they come from, and how those labels just grow to
be something totally different than what they originated at. And
it's just it's just not necessary.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
That's true. And as I think about the women listening,
and I know how exhausted so many of us are,
the men are exhausted too, and that's all I'm going
to say. It might look different, it might show itself differently,
but as we continue to take on the world and
be all that we can be, we're all going to
be a little bit tired, and I think we need
to show each other some grace throughout this process.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
I am going to now give you all of my
emotion that I'm feeling right now, and then we can
eat the meat loaf that I made last night.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
And this has been another Curveball production.
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