03 - Phaedrus - Plato

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Section three. Now, Socrates, what do you think is not
the discourse excellent? More especially in the matter of the language, Yes,
quite admirable. The effect on me was ravishing, and this

(00:23):
I owe to you, Fightreus, for I observ'd you while reading,
to be in an ecstasy and thinking that you are
more experienced in these matters than I am. I followed
your example, and like you, my divine darling, I became

(00:44):
inspired with a frenzy. Indeed, you are pleased to be merry?
Do you mean that I am not in earnest? Now,
don't talk in that way, Socrates, tease, but let me
have your real opinion. I adjure you, by Zeus, the

(01:07):
god of friendship, to tell me whether you think that
any Helene could have said more nor spoken better on
the same subject. WW But are you and I expected
to praise the sentiments of the author or only the
clearness and roundness and finish and to aneuur of the language.

(01:34):
As to the first, I willingly submit to your better judgment,
for I am not worthy to form an opinion, having
only attended to the rhetorical manner. And I was doubting
whether this could have been defended even by Lucias himself.

(01:56):
I thought, woll I speak under correction? That he repeated
himself two or three times, either from want of words
or from want of pains. And also he appear'd to
me ostentatiously to exult in shewing how well he could

(02:17):
say the same thing in two or three ways. Pomp nonsense, Socrates.
What you call repetition was the especial merit of the speech,
for he omitted no topic of which the subject rightly allowed.
And I do not think that any one could have

(02:40):
spoken better or more exhaustively. Dare I cannot go along
with you ancient sages, men and women who have spoken
and written of these things would rise up in judgment
against me if out of plaisance I assented to you?

(03:04):
Who are they? And where did you hear anything better
than this? I am sure that I must have heard,
But at this moment I do not remember from whom,
perhaps from Sappho the Fair, or Anacreon the Wise, or

(03:29):
possibly from a prose writer. Why do I say so? Why?
Because I perceive that my possum is full, and that
I could make another speech as good as that of
Lucias and different. Now I am certain that this is

(03:50):
not an invention of my own. Who am well aware
that I know nothing, and therefore I can only infer
that I have been filled through the ears like a
picture from the waters of another. Though I have actually
forgotten in my stupidity who was my informant? That is grand,

(04:20):
But never mind where you heard the discourse, or from whom.
Let that be a mystery not to be divulged even
at my earnest desire. Only, as you say, promise to
make another and better oration, equal in length and entirely new,

(04:41):
on the same subject, And I, like the nine archons,
will promise to set up a golden image at Delphi,
not only of myself, but of you, and as large
as life. You are a dear golden ass. If you

(05:03):
suppose me to mean that Lucias has altogether missed the mark,
and that I can make a speech from which all
his arguments are to be excluded, the worst of authors
will say something which is to the point, who, for example,
could speak on this thesis of yours without praising the

(05:26):
discretion of the non lover and blaming the indiscretion of
the lover. These are the common places of the subject
which must come in for what else is there to
be said, and must be allowed and excused. The only
merit is in the arrangement of them, for there can

(05:49):
be none in the invention. But when you leave the
common places, then there may be some originality. I admit
that there is reason in what you say, and I
too will be reasonable and will allow you to start

(06:10):
with the premise that the lover is more disordered in
his wits than the non lover. If in what remains
you make a longer and better speech than Lysias and
use other arguments, then I say again that a statue
you shall have of beaten gold, and take your place

(06:33):
by the colossal offerings of the cupsilids at Olympia. How
profoundly in earnest is the lover, because to tease him
I lay a finger upon his love, and so fidrous

(06:54):
you really imagine that I am going to improve upon
the ingenuity of lucias there. I have you as you
had me, and you must just speak as you best can. Now,
do not let us exchange to quackware as in a farce,

(07:17):
or compel me to say to you as you said
to me. I know Socrates as well as I know myself,
and he was wanting to speak, but he gave himself airs. Rather,
I would have you consider that from this place we stir,

(07:37):
not not until you have unbosomed yourself of the speech.
For here are we all alone, and I am stronger, remember,
and younger than you. Wherefore perpend and do not compel
me to use violence. Hah, But my sweet Fidrus, how

(08:04):
ridiculous it would be of me to compete with Lucias
in an extempores speech. He is a master in his art,
and I am an untaught man. You see how matters stand.
And therefore let there be no more pretenses. For indeed,

(08:26):
I know the word that is irresistible. Then don't say it. Yes,
but I will, and my word shall be an oath
I say, or rather swear. But what God will be
witness of my oath by this plain tree? I swear

(08:51):
that unless you repeat the discourse here in the face
of this very plain tree, I will never tell you another,
never let you have word of another villain. I am conquered.
The poor lover of discourse has no more to say.

(09:13):
Then why are you still at your tricks? I am
not going to play tricks now that you have taken
the oath, for I cannot allow myself to be starv'd. Proceed.
Shall I tell you what I will do? What I

(09:36):
will veil my face and gallop through the discourse as
fast as I can, For if I see you, I
shall feel ashamed and not know what to say. Only
go on, and you may do anything else which you please.

(09:58):
Now come, O, ye muses, melodious, as ye are called,
whether you have receiv'd this name from the character of
your strains, or because the millions are a musical race,
Help O help me in the tale which my good

(10:20):
friend here desires me to rehearse, in order that his friend,
whom he always deemed wise, may seem to him to
be wiser than ever. Once upon a time there was
a fair boy, or more properly speaking, a youth. He

(10:43):
was very fair and had a great many lovers. And
there was one special, cunning one who had persuaded the
youth that he did not love him, but he really
loved him all the same. And one day, when he
was paying his addresses to him, he used this very

(11:08):
argument that he ought to accept the non lover rather
than the lover. His words were as follows, All good
counsel begins in the same way a man should know
what he is advising about, or his counsel will all

(11:29):
come to naught. But people imagine that they know about
the nature of things when they don't know about them,
and not having come to an understanding at first, because
they think that they know, they end, as might be expected,
in contradicting one another and themselves. Now you and I

(11:56):
must not be guilty of this fundamental error, which we
condemn in others. But as our question is whether the
lover or the non lover is to be preferred, let
us first of all agree in defining the nature and
power of love, and then, keeping our eyes upon the

(12:19):
definition and to this appealing, let us further inquire whether
the love brings advantage or disadvantage. Every One sees that
love is a desire, and we know also that non
lovers desire the beautiful and good. Now, in what way

(12:45):
is the lover to be distinguished from the non lover?
Let us note that in every one of us there
are two guiding and ruling principles which lead us whither
they will. One is the natural desire of pleasure. The

(13:05):
other is an acquired opinion which aspires after the best.
And these two are sometimes in harmony, and then again
at war. And sometimes the one, sometimes the other conquers.
When opinion, by the help of reason, leads us to

(13:28):
the best, the conquering principle is called temperance. But when desire,
which is devoid of reason, rules in us and drags
us to pleasure, that power of misrule is called excess.

(13:48):
Now excess has many names, and many members, and many forms.
And any of these forms, when very marked, gives a
name neither honorable nor creditable to the bearer of the name.
The desire of eating, for example, which gets the better

(14:11):
of the higher reason and the other desires, is called gluttony,
and he who is possessed by it is called a glutton.
The tyrannical desire of drink, which inclines the possessor of
the desire to drink, has a name which is only

(14:31):
too obvious. And there can be as little doubt by
what name any other appetite of the same family would
be called. It will be the name of that which
happens to be dominant. And now I think that you
will perceive the drift of my discourse. But as every

(14:56):
spoken word is in a manner plainer than the unspoken.
I had better say further that the irrational desire which
overcomes the tendency of opinion towards right, and is led
away to the enjoyment of beauty, and especially of personal beauty,

(15:20):
by the desires which are her own kindred, that supreme desire,
I say, which by leading conquers, and by the force
of passion, is reinforced. From this very force, receiving a name,
is called love erominous heros. End of Section three.