August 21, 2025 • 15 mins
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Section four. And now, dear Fidrus, I shall pause for
an instant to ask whether you do not think me
as I appear to myself inspir'd yees, Socrates, you seem
to have a very unusual flow of words. Who listen
(00:24):
to me? Then in silence? For surely the place is
wholly so that you must not wonder if, as I proceed,
I appear to be in a divine fury. For already
I am getting into dillyrambics. Nothing can be truer. M.
(00:45):
The responsibility rests with you. But hear what follows, and
perhaps the fit may be averted. All is in their
hands above. I will go on talking to my youth. Listen, Thus,
(01:05):
my friend, we have declared and defined the nature of
the subject. Keeping the definition in view, let us now
inquire what advantage or disadvantage is likely to ensue from
the lover or the non lover. To him who accepts
(01:25):
their advances, he who is the victim of his passions
and the slave of pleasure, will of course desire to
make his beloved as agreeable to himself as possible. Now
to him who has a mind diseased, anything is agreeable
(01:47):
which is not opposed to him. But that which is
equal or superior is hateful to him. And therefore the
lover will not brook any superiority or equality on the
part of his beloved. He is always employed in reducing
(02:09):
him to inferiority. And the ignorant is the inferior of
the wise, the coward of the brave, the slow of
speech of the speaker, the dull of the clever. These
and not these only, are the mental defects of the beloved,
(02:33):
defects which, when implanted by nature, are necessarily a delight
to the lover, And when not implanted, he must contrive
to implant them in him if he would not be
deprived of his fleeting joy. And therefore he cannot help
(02:54):
being jealous, and will debar his beloved from the advantages
of society which would make a man of him, and
especially from that society which would have given him wisdom.
And thereby he cannot fail to do him great harm,
(03:16):
that is to say, in his excessive fear lest he
should come to be despised in his eyes, he will
be compelled to banish from him divine philosophy. And there
is no greater injury which he can inflict upon him.
Than this, he will contrive that his beloved shall be
(03:40):
wholly ignorant, and in everything shall look to him. He
is to be the delight of the lover's heart, and
a curse to himself. Verily, a lover is a profitable
guardian and associate for him in all that relates to
his mind. Let us next see how his master, whose
(04:07):
law of life is pleasure and not good, will keep
and train the body of his servant. Will he not
choose a beloved who is delicate rather than sturdy and strong,
one brought up in shady bowers, and not in the
bright sun, a stranger to manly exercises and the sweat
(04:32):
of toil, accustomed only to a soft and luxurious diet,
instead of the hues of health, having the colors of
paint and ornament, and the rest of a peace. Such
a life as any one can imagine, and which I
(04:54):
need not detail at length, but I may sum up
all that I have to say in a word, and
pass on. Such a person in war or in any
of the great crises of life, will be the anxiety
of his friends, and also of his lover, and certainly
(05:16):
not the terror of his enemies, which nobody can deny.
And now let us tell what advantage or disadvantage the
beloved will receive from the guardianship and society of his
lover in the matter of his property. This is the
(05:39):
next point to be considered. The lover will be the
first to see what, indeed will be sufficiently evident to
all men, that he desires above all things to deprive
his beloved of his dearest and best and holiest possessions, Father, mother,
(06:03):
kindred friends, of all whom he thinks may be hinderers
or reprovers of their most sweet converse. He will even
cast a jealous eye upon his gold and silver or
other property, because these make him a less easy prey,
(06:26):
and when caught less manageable. Hence he is of necessity
displeased at his possession of them, and rejoices at their loss.
And he would like him to be wifeless, childless, homeless
as well. And the longer the better, for the longer
(06:49):
he is all this, the longer he will enjoy him.
There are some sort of animals, such as flatterer, who
are dangerous and mischievous enough, and yet nature has mingled
a temporary pleasure and grace in their composition you may
(07:12):
say that a courtisan is hurtful and disapprove of such
creatures and their practices, and yet for the time they
are very pleasant. But the lover is not only hurtful
to his love, he is also an extremely disagreeable companion.
(07:35):
The old proverb says that birds of a feather flock together.
I suppose that equality of years inclines them to the
same pleasures, and similarity begets friendship. Yet you may have
more than enough even of this, and verily constraint is
(07:57):
always said to be grievous. Now the lover is not
only unlike his beloved, but he forces himself upon him,
for he is old and his love is young. And
neither day nor night will he leave him. If he
(08:17):
can help. Necessity and the sting of desire drive him
on and allure him with the pleasure which he receives
from seeing, hearing, touching, perceiving him in every way. And
therefore he is delighted to fasten upon him and to
(08:39):
minister to him. But what pleasure or consolation can the
beloved be receiving all this time? Must he not feel
the extremity of disgust when he looks at an old
shriveled face, and the remainder to man, which even in
(09:01):
a description is disagreeable and quite detestable. When he is
forced into daily contact with his lover. Moreover, he is
jealously watched and guarded against everything and everybody, and has
to hear misplaced and exaggerated praises of himself and sensuous
(09:27):
equally inappropriate, which are intolerable when the man is sober,
and besides being intolerable, are published all over the world
in their indelicacy and wearisomeness. When he is drunk, and
not only while his love continues is he mischievous and unpleasant.
(09:53):
But when his love ceases, he becomes a perfidious enemy
of him on whom he showered his oaths and prayers
and promises, and yet could hardly prevail upon him to
tolerate the tedium of his company, even from motives of interest.
(10:15):
The hour of payment arrives, and now he is the
servant of another master. Instead of love and infatuation, wisdom
and temperance are his bosom's lords. But the beloved has
not discover'd the change which has taken place in him.
(10:40):
When he asks for a return and recalls to his
recollection former sayings and doings, he believes himself to be
speaking to the same person, and the other, not having
the courage to confess the truth, and not knowing how
to fulfill the oaths and promises which were made when
(11:05):
under the dominion of folly, and having now grown wise
and temperate, does not want to do as he did
or to be as he was before, and so he
runs away and is constrained to be a defaulter. The
(11:26):
oyster shell in allusion to a game in which two
parties fled or pursued, according as an oyster shell which
was thrown into the air fell with the dark or
light side uppermost translator's footnote, has fallen with the other
(11:46):
side uppermost. He changes pursuit into flight, while the other
is compelled to follow him with passion and imprecation, not
know that he ought never from the first to have
accepted a demented lover instead of a sensible non lover,
(12:09):
and that in making such a choice he was giving
himself up to a faithless, morose, envious, disagreeable, being hurtful
to his estate, hurtful to his bodily health, and still
more hurtful to the cultivation of his mind than which
(12:32):
there neither is, nor ever will be anything more honored
in the eyes both of gods and men. Consider this,
fair youth, and know that in the friendship of the
lover there is no real kindness. He has an appetite
(12:54):
and wants to feed upon you as wolfs of lambs,
So lovers love their loves. But I told you so.
I am speaking in verse, and therefore I had better
(13:14):
make an end enough. I thought that you were only
half way, and we're going to make a similar speech
about all the advantages of accepting the non lover. Why
do you not proceed? Does not your simplicity observe that
(13:37):
I have got out of dillyrambics into heroics. We're only
uttering a censure on the lover. And if I am
to add the praises of the non lover, what will
become of me? Do you not perceive that I am
already overtaken by the nymphs to whom you have mischievously
(14:02):
exposed me. And therefore I will only add that the
non lover has all the advantages in which the lover
is accused of being deficient. And now I will say
no more. There has been enough of both of them,
(14:25):
leaving the tale to its fate. I will cross the
river and make the best of my way home, lest
the worst thing be inflicted upon me by you. Not yet, Socrates,
Not until the heat of the day has passed. Do
you not see that the hour is almost noon. There
(14:49):
is the midday sun standing still. As people say in
the meridian, let us rather stay and talk over what
has been said, and then return. In the cool end
of section four,
Section four. And now, dear Fidrus, I shall pause for
an instant to ask whether you do not think me
as I appear to myself inspir'd yees, Socrates, you seem
to have a very unusual flow of words. Who listen
(00:24):
to me? Then in silence? For surely the place is
wholly so that you must not wonder if, as I proceed,
I appear to be in a divine fury. For already
I am getting into dillyrambics. Nothing can be truer. M.
(00:45):
The responsibility rests with you. But hear what follows, and
perhaps the fit may be averted. All is in their
hands above. I will go on talking to my youth. Listen, Thus,
(01:05):
my friend, we have declared and defined the nature of
the subject. Keeping the definition in view, let us now
inquire what advantage or disadvantage is likely to ensue from
the lover or the non lover. To him who accepts
(01:25):
their advances, he who is the victim of his passions
and the slave of pleasure, will of course desire to
make his beloved as agreeable to himself as possible. Now
to him who has a mind diseased, anything is agreeable
(01:47):
which is not opposed to him. But that which is
equal or superior is hateful to him. And therefore the
lover will not brook any superiority or equality on the
part of his beloved. He is always employed in reducing
(02:09):
him to inferiority. And the ignorant is the inferior of
the wise, the coward of the brave, the slow of
speech of the speaker, the dull of the clever. These
and not these only, are the mental defects of the beloved,
(02:33):
defects which, when implanted by nature, are necessarily a delight
to the lover, And when not implanted, he must contrive
to implant them in him if he would not be
deprived of his fleeting joy. And therefore he cannot help
(02:54):
being jealous, and will debar his beloved from the advantages
of society which would make a man of him, and
especially from that society which would have given him wisdom.
And thereby he cannot fail to do him great harm,
(03:16):
that is to say, in his excessive fear lest he
should come to be despised in his eyes, he will
be compelled to banish from him divine philosophy. And there
is no greater injury which he can inflict upon him.
Than this, he will contrive that his beloved shall be
(03:40):
wholly ignorant, and in everything shall look to him. He
is to be the delight of the lover's heart, and
a curse to himself. Verily, a lover is a profitable
guardian and associate for him in all that relates to
his mind. Let us next see how his master, whose
(04:07):
law of life is pleasure and not good, will keep
and train the body of his servant. Will he not
choose a beloved who is delicate rather than sturdy and strong,
one brought up in shady bowers, and not in the
bright sun, a stranger to manly exercises and the sweat
(04:32):
of toil, accustomed only to a soft and luxurious diet,
instead of the hues of health, having the colors of
paint and ornament, and the rest of a peace. Such
a life as any one can imagine, and which I
(04:54):
need not detail at length, but I may sum up
all that I have to say in a word, and
pass on. Such a person in war or in any
of the great crises of life, will be the anxiety
of his friends, and also of his lover, and certainly
(05:16):
not the terror of his enemies, which nobody can deny.
And now let us tell what advantage or disadvantage the
beloved will receive from the guardianship and society of his
lover in the matter of his property. This is the
(05:39):
next point to be considered. The lover will be the
first to see what, indeed will be sufficiently evident to
all men, that he desires above all things to deprive
his beloved of his dearest and best and holiest possessions, Father, mother,
(06:03):
kindred friends, of all whom he thinks may be hinderers
or reprovers of their most sweet converse. He will even
cast a jealous eye upon his gold and silver or
other property, because these make him a less easy prey,
(06:26):
and when caught less manageable. Hence he is of necessity
displeased at his possession of them, and rejoices at their loss.
And he would like him to be wifeless, childless, homeless
as well. And the longer the better, for the longer
(06:49):
he is all this, the longer he will enjoy him.
There are some sort of animals, such as flatterer, who
are dangerous and mischievous enough, and yet nature has mingled
a temporary pleasure and grace in their composition you may
(07:12):
say that a courtisan is hurtful and disapprove of such
creatures and their practices, and yet for the time they
are very pleasant. But the lover is not only hurtful
to his love, he is also an extremely disagreeable companion.
(07:35):
The old proverb says that birds of a feather flock together.
I suppose that equality of years inclines them to the
same pleasures, and similarity begets friendship. Yet you may have
more than enough even of this, and verily constraint is
(07:57):
always said to be grievous. Now the lover is not
only unlike his beloved, but he forces himself upon him,
for he is old and his love is young. And
neither day nor night will he leave him. If he
(08:17):
can help. Necessity and the sting of desire drive him
on and allure him with the pleasure which he receives
from seeing, hearing, touching, perceiving him in every way. And
therefore he is delighted to fasten upon him and to
(08:39):
minister to him. But what pleasure or consolation can the
beloved be receiving all this time? Must he not feel
the extremity of disgust when he looks at an old
shriveled face, and the remainder to man, which even in
(09:01):
a description is disagreeable and quite detestable. When he is
forced into daily contact with his lover. Moreover, he is
jealously watched and guarded against everything and everybody, and has
to hear misplaced and exaggerated praises of himself and sensuous
(09:27):
equally inappropriate, which are intolerable when the man is sober,
and besides being intolerable, are published all over the world
in their indelicacy and wearisomeness. When he is drunk, and
not only while his love continues is he mischievous and unpleasant.
(09:53):
But when his love ceases, he becomes a perfidious enemy
of him on whom he showered his oaths and prayers
and promises, and yet could hardly prevail upon him to
tolerate the tedium of his company, even from motives of interest.
(10:15):
The hour of payment arrives, and now he is the
servant of another master. Instead of love and infatuation, wisdom
and temperance are his bosom's lords. But the beloved has
not discover'd the change which has taken place in him.
(10:40):
When he asks for a return and recalls to his
recollection former sayings and doings, he believes himself to be
speaking to the same person, and the other, not having
the courage to confess the truth, and not knowing how
to fulfill the oaths and promises which were made when
(11:05):
under the dominion of folly, and having now grown wise
and temperate, does not want to do as he did
or to be as he was before, and so he
runs away and is constrained to be a defaulter. The
(11:26):
oyster shell in allusion to a game in which two
parties fled or pursued, according as an oyster shell which
was thrown into the air fell with the dark or
light side uppermost translator's footnote, has fallen with the other
(11:46):
side uppermost. He changes pursuit into flight, while the other
is compelled to follow him with passion and imprecation, not
know that he ought never from the first to have
accepted a demented lover instead of a sensible non lover,
(12:09):
and that in making such a choice he was giving
himself up to a faithless, morose, envious, disagreeable, being hurtful
to his estate, hurtful to his bodily health, and still
more hurtful to the cultivation of his mind than which
(12:32):
there neither is, nor ever will be anything more honored
in the eyes both of gods and men. Consider this,
fair youth, and know that in the friendship of the
lover there is no real kindness. He has an appetite
(12:54):
and wants to feed upon you as wolfs of lambs,
So lovers love their loves. But I told you so.
I am speaking in verse, and therefore I had better
(13:14):
make an end enough. I thought that you were only
half way, and we're going to make a similar speech
about all the advantages of accepting the non lover. Why
do you not proceed? Does not your simplicity observe that
(13:37):
I have got out of dillyrambics into heroics. We're only
uttering a censure on the lover. And if I am
to add the praises of the non lover, what will
become of me? Do you not perceive that I am
already overtaken by the nymphs to whom you have mischievously
(14:02):
exposed me. And therefore I will only add that the
non lover has all the advantages in which the lover
is accused of being deficient. And now I will say
no more. There has been enough of both of them,
(14:25):
leaving the tale to its fate. I will cross the
river and make the best of my way home, lest
the worst thing be inflicted upon me by you. Not yet, Socrates,
Not until the heat of the day has passed. Do
you not see that the hour is almost noon. There
(14:49):
is the midday sun standing still. As people say in
the meridian, let us rather stay and talk over what
has been said, and then return. In the cool end
of section four,
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