'Sleep Divorce' with Spring Huffman

It’s a trending topic for couples who can no longer sleep in the same bed: Sleep Divorce.  And it’s much bigger than a social media trend.  A National Sleep Foundation survey from 2017 estimated one in four American couples sleep in separate beds.  We’ll chat with one of Essentia Health’s sleep experts, Spring Huffman, APRN, CNP.    We’ll dissect sleep divorce and see if this could be the answer to troubled sleep couples!

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Ladies, It's time to talk sleep. It's episode two, season four and
the Dare to Ask podcast Sleep Divorce. You know, I better follow through
to see if I can make thiswork so we can salvage the sleeping arrangement.
I'm Corey Jensen, your host forthis Dare to Ask podcast. I'm
a mom to a big family andhave delivered five babies, and like many

(00:21):
women, I try to stay informedabout my wellness as well as the health
of my kids. We've created aspace to have open conversation about what's going
on with the woman's body without feelingintimidated in a clinical setting. A place
to talk like girlfriends do. Aspace that dares to ask, asking the
questions like is this something that's rightfor me? We're here to make a

(00:44):
connection, be authentic, and reallyget to know your provider. Yes,
know the person behind the stethoscope.Dare to Ask will be where you hear
the questions that we are all curiousto know, but just need a space
to do it. You've landed onthe Dare to Ask podcast show hosted by
Corey Jensen and sponsored by Essentia Health. Social media has made quote sleep divorce

(01:10):
a trending topic. So, whatis sleep divorce? This is supposed to
be the practice where your partner,whom you usually share a bed with in
a bedroom with you, become sleepdivorced. Doesn't mean you're going through an
actual divorce, but just sleeping separately. Why this is so trendy. We're
also going to talk about how itcould actually help save your marriage. Celebrities

(01:30):
have been weighing in on this.Carson Dally says he's a huge fan of
sleep divorce. Mario Lopez says,no, no way, it ain't for
him because he gets too frisky inthe middle of the night. It brings
up some things though. So today'sguest from Assentia Health is a sleep expert.
Her name is Spring Huffman. She'san APRN and a CNP at Essentia

(01:51):
Health, and she's just the perfectperson to be talking about what sleep divorce
means, how it could actually behelpful not only for your marriage, but
also obviously you're quality of sleep foryou, your partner, maybe your whole
family. We technically aren't getting enoughsleep as Americans, and there's a lot
of different practices we can do tohopefully give ourselves a better quality and a

(02:13):
better night of sleep. But couldsleep divorce be the answer to your marriage?
It's one of the hottest topics thereis. We all just want to
catch a few more disease, solet's get to it. My name is
Spring Hoffman. I am a nursepractitioner in the sleep medicine department at Essenia.
Spring. You have heard the phrasenails on a chalkboard when a particular

(02:35):
sound it sends you over the edgemesophonia? Have you heard that before?
I have heard that, okay,so if you suffer from mesophonia, it
translates basically as a hatred of certainsounds. Some sounds that are just like
nails on the chalkboard, breathing,chewing, tapping like fingers and stuff,
and a biggie that always gets thrownin here is snoring. That people hate

(03:00):
the sound of snoring so much it'sbeyond irksome. It's hatred for it.
I think we can all agree mostpeople don't like the sound of snoring,
but there are some people that aresuffering from like a hatred of the sound.
Don't particularly like it if I'm tryingto sleep, dislike anybody else.
But over time there can be ahatred if it's not innate from birth,

(03:23):
it can be developed over time,and it's got a lot of psychological components
to it. Frustration and your ownsleep deprivation due to that can bring on
a lot of negative feelings. Atrend that is really making its way on
social media, especially almost buzzwords rightnow, keep hearing and seeing over and

(03:44):
over again, is something called sleepdivorce. If you are going to get
sleep divorce from your partner for thatto actually be a solution and not lead
to an actual marital divorce. Whatis sleep divorce? Prior to the well
as word sleep divorce, I calledit partner or spousal and alienation bedroom alienation
because I saw that a lot inthe clinic. Yeah, patients were coming

(04:08):
to me out of desperation, usuallythe loud snor, usually a male,
and they had been evicted from theirposition in the bedroom to help the other
partner sleep. I think the pandemicescalated this. I do feel people working
from home, spending in home togetherdefinitely expedited this occurrence happening. It's basically

(04:30):
where sleeping arrangements are separate between partnersromantic partners. I guess right, the
person that you typically and normally sleepwith this can actually be good for the
relationship and can't sleep of both partiesNow, before we get to the separation
where you actually physically are no longersleeping together in the same bed, there
are some other tactics usually that aretried first. Can we cover some of

(04:55):
those because I want to get sleepdivorce. Wait, there's probably a few
things you should check off at LEAstry first. Can we do that before
we're gonna just completely irreconcilable differences overour sleep. I focus a lot because
I work in the sleep clinic,I focus a lot on snoring, But
there's a lot of other things thatlead to spousal alienation, partner in alienation

(05:15):
or sleep divorce, and things likechildren in the bed, pets in the
bed, restless sleep, or restlesslegs. Yeah, I think it's always
a good idea to see a sleepprovider or even a primary care provider.
Some of these options could definitely bemanaged by your own primary care provider.
Yea, if you do have sleepapnea and you do need a seapath,

(05:39):
that's a little different. But restlesslegs, working on sleep hygiene, developing
a compromise between partners, sometimes it'sjust the shifts and they when they sleep.
You know, some people their sleepphase is a little delayed, so
they go to bed late, butthen they wake the partner up. It
can be as simple as a compromisethe sleeping environment. How much noise and

(05:59):
light a big one too, andsome people have to have it pitch black
with no noise. The other partnerneeds some background noise with maybe a night
light on or like the TV onwith the volume down, just to have
a backlight in the room. Ifyou can compromise and it's it's workable,
that would be ideal. If not, then developing a plan for separate sleeping

(06:21):
arrangements is definitely going to be goodfor the relationship. Yeah, there was
a studied National Sleep Foundation that showedthat sleep deprived couples more irritable. There's
more fights that can lead to potentialriff in the relationship, could potentially lead
to actual divorce. The last timeyou were a guest on our Dare to
Ask podcast, we talked about angryfor sleep. So many of us operate

(06:45):
and our children as well as sleepdeprived. And this has nothing to do
with the partner who we're sleeping nextto, but we're already putting our bodies
and ourselves through so much stress.And good sleep hygiene, as you say,
is already a stress around our livesjust to get enough and to have
enough. But then you throw insomebody else in the mix, and now
we're talking compromise and any wonder weget a single wink of sleep at night,

(07:06):
especially when you have young families anddemanding jobs too, because some people
take calls, some people may begetting notifications, and that really cuts into
that work life balance, that familytime in the evening. This is over
the long haul too. You know, anybody can do something for a short

(07:27):
period of time and still make itwork. It's the long haul where it
really takes its toll, like thedeath by a thousand cuts. You know,
I don't want marriages to die.So we've got to recognize there's an
issue, and if it's escalating,definitely take some measures, see a provider
about it, or make some changes. A lot of this information is easily

(07:50):
accessed online, or sometimes it doestake going to a professional like that little
investment for sure, to make theappointment to see somebody and to follow through
before change can be made. Youknow, that could be the motivator for
change, you know, because onceyou get invested, maybe you see the
provider schedule sleep study, pay forthe sleep study. Then it's like,

(08:11):
okay, I'm in. You know, I better follow through to see if
I can make this work so wecan salvage the sleeping arrangement. And sometimes
both partners need seatpaps, you know. I don't want to say it's just
always one partner versus the other,but sometimes it's a mutual thing that they
both have issues with sleep and theyboth need to get it taken care of
so that they can sleep in thesame bed. Do you need a recommendation?

(08:33):
Is it go to the primary andhave this discussion first, or if
we've got a listener right now,that's like I already know we need expert
help. Yeah, our sleep clinicis open, so you could call and
make your own appointment. But someinsurances want a referral, and that kind
of it varies. I have alot of self referrals that come into the
clinic. They kind of know whatthey need. They've been told by everybody.

(08:56):
All their hunting partners, fishing partners, yeah, all their travel companions
are co workers. They all knowthis. Is what needs to happen.
You know, those are kind ofthe easier patients, the people who are
already kind of sold on, hey, I need to make a change here.
The harder patients are when it's environmentaland there's multiple it's not just snoring,
it's maybe their legs. Maybe theyhave insomnia too, Maybe they've got

(09:18):
a kid or a pet in thebed that bothers them, but their spouse
can't sleep without. It can getreally complex prior to actually moving out of
the room or getting separate rooms,different beds. There's a kind of sleep
separation with using separate comforters, theScandinavian sleep method, where couples use two

(09:39):
separate duvets or comforters to lessen sleepdisruption. What is your take on that.
I've recommended that especially when women tendto want to be a little warmer
untail menopause, and men they areusually hot boxes. Yeah, so,
but when you make a bed itcan be difficult because the bed won't look
nice if you have two separate coverups. There are zone heated mattress pads

(10:03):
that I recommend for people the personwho tends to be cold. Sometimes medications
can make people can so it coulddefinitely be a male that can be turned
on and then the rest of themattress pad is flat so it looks nice
in the bed, but they canstay warm. Sometimes patients need a weighted
blanket to help kind of with restlesslegs or just sleep, and they make
those smaller so it could fit overhalf the bed and it could be when

(10:26):
the bed is made, it'll looknice. Folding the heavy comforter down is
kind of what most men would prefer. That looks nice, but colder bed
parker will tend to be a littlechilly. If that's the case, then
they may have to just keep thethrow a little warmer throw at the end
of the bed. Big sleep isa huge business in this country. There
are so many sleep aids. Wehave weight issues and we have sleep issues

(10:48):
in this country. So there's somany different options of what kind of accessories
can I buy? What kind oftools and resources can I go to?
If it's going to take two differentcomforters for you both to get qualities sleep,
I guess I don't even care.A small investment, yes, small
investments if your bedroom looks a littlenot straight off at Instagram or or fine,
but that's not everybody. That's mypersonal take on it. But some

(11:11):
people having their bedroom squared away isvery important. Yes, don't even want
like even a sepap setting out.They have to find a cabinet that it
will be contained. Yeah, theaesthetic is just there. Yeah, let's
say we've run the gamut. We'vetried white noise, we've tried different sleep
times, how close you're eating ordrinking to sleeping. Like, you've done
the things that you think are goingto help. You're at an impasse.

(11:35):
You've done compromise, and now it'stime to try a sleep divorce. Is
that a good thing? Can Istill have a healthy relationship if we go
this route, if you take avery empathetic and passionate Hey, we've got
to figure something out. Let's talkthis through. Oftentimes, what I see
though, is someone starts sleeping onthe couch. It's not good for the
family, probably not good for thekids. Dad sleeps on the couch.

(11:56):
Or ideally you would find another bedroomthat you could begin sleeping in. And
even if it's just some of thenights, A lot of couples will you
know, through the work week orthrough kids schedules, you know, a
mom sleeping with one of the kids, and then on the weekends go back
and they sleep in the same bedas they used to, and that can

(12:18):
alleviate a lot of the frustration andstress, especially if it's a kid in
the bed that's causing kind of sharpof the rift people have. Their separate
sleep environments can be less angry forsleep and a much more agreeable partner.
And some people even look forward totheir weekends with their spouse because it is

(12:39):
a change and it's something different.They value that time a little differently.
Most what I've read and I've heardresearchers speak about this, they really do
think that having an evening routine thetime before you go to sleep, most
people don't jump in bed and immediatelyfall asleep. That might be the only
time where you don't have little ears, and maybe your phones are put away
so you can get someone's at Sothat's where a lot of discussions and decisions

(13:03):
get made. Not that it's probablythe best time right before bed because your
brain is tired, but it isa bonding time for couples. So trying
to find a workable solution where youare still bonding, maybe still the partner
who has left the bedroom, stillgoing into the bed talking and having that
time, and then going back andsleeping in wherever they have decided to sleep

(13:28):
for the night. Keeping that routinecan continue that bond so that there isn't
an actual alienation or an actual separationbetween the emotional components of what partners are.
A lack of intimacy, you knowthat trending topic of sleep divorce and
hearing these partners go. As itturns out, my marriage is better now
that we have done the sleep divorce. That you have to compromise. You

(13:50):
have to actually have a really clearform of communication. While it might take
some spontaneity away from your life,it means that we have to communicate better
in order to prioritize that bonding,some of that intimacy, giving you things
to look forward to the weekend too. Okay, this is when we're going
to be coming back together. Somepositives about this. I'm hoping that if

(14:11):
you are doing it, or ifyou're entertaining the idea, that you can
see some positives and how this couldreally actually really help your own personal health
and your partner's health, but yourrelationship's health as well. A caveat to
this is vacations. So now let'ssay the couple has successfully sleep divorced,
they have got things figured out,but and now we've got a big vacation,

(14:31):
how do we come back together forI guess maybe short term stints like
this. This does come up becausewe do have a fair number of people
who leave for the winter a differentlocation and oftentimes they'll have to come together
there. So for short vacation Ithink people can be much more tolerable versus

(14:52):
make great work for a week.But most people do come together and they
try their best. Like if snoringis the issue, wearing the earplugs,
sleep not on the back, becausethe back usually snoring because the gravity is
the worst. Trying to make sureyou're not congested. Consuming alcohol too close
to bed can definitely make snoring more, you know, being sensitive to the
bed partner, trying to sleep,maybe sleeping in a little different sleep face.

(15:15):
Usually on vacation or schedules aren't anissue, so it's less of an
issue for the week versus when Isee people travel south for the winter where
it's a couple of months that canbe a little more straining, and they're
excited to get back home. Totheir bedroom. Usually with that second home
or you know that snowbart situation,you're down to one room again, one

(15:35):
bed again. So I can seewhere lake season is. The other thing.
In the summer here, it's alittle harder. People usually only go
to the lake for a couple ofdays, so of course they can manage.
But you know, some people mightsleep on the couch help that bed
partner. It's not ideal, butit's doable for short, short periods of
time. Another trend in vacationing,just in the last six to eight months,

(15:56):
people saying that they are trying towork in more do nothing moments in
their vacation, which obviously could helpfor all of us who have some sort
of sleep deprivation anyway, regardless ofif the partner is to blame or not,
and who you're sleeping with, butjust cognizant and scheduling more relaxation when
you actually do make it away fromhome is a good thing. Yes,

(16:18):
anytime you can try to be alittle more present and in the moment,
especially if we're talking about a vacationwith your romantic partner, bonding time that's
more valuable than you'll ever know,because we usually can vacation very often,
So sometimes those one or two tripsa year are how couples kind of how

(16:40):
you reconnect to what brought you togetherin the beginning. There's lots of research
out there on mindfulness and being presentin the moment and being an American.
I do feel like it's undervalue.It's not part of our normal culture.
You know, we're kind of goalgetters, and we're from one thing to
the other. We overschedule ourselves chronicallyoverstimulated. So vacation, if there's any

(17:02):
time that you can do it,it would be during vacation that you can
really just unplug and be together.Your expertise in the sleep realm fascinates.
Maybe these little pop up trends thatare happening on social A couple different terms
that I've heard recently herkle durkle.Have you heard of herkle durkling. That's
not heard of herkl durkling. Okayit is and edit this end. It

(17:26):
could be Danish, it could beSwedish. It's one of those where it
stems from a European country and theterm basically is to just kind of stick
around in bed during the morning hours. And this wouldn't be practical to do
every day, but maybe on theweekends. People are saying this is how
I hurkle durkled this Saturday, spendingmore of a leisure moment or morning where

(17:49):
a couple more hours in bed.I'm not necessarily sleeping, but I'm just
really relaxing. I'm relaxing. I'mtaking advantage of the downtime, like maybe
it's taking what my body needs way. That sounds very great. Then there's
the other term that I'm hearing,which is bed rotting. It sounds terrible.
I'm getting images. I guess bedrotting is people that are just incredibly

(18:14):
overworked. They're exhausted from life,work, family, whatever, and they're
spending the weekend in bed, orthey're spending a few days where they're just
rotting away in bed, meaning they'renot getting out and doing much because they're
also bringing screens in their food andconsuming it in the bed. These two
trends, what would you say tothat. I could say that both of

(18:37):
them, in the presence of asleep disorder like insomnia, I wouldn't recommend.
But if you're a good sleeper andyou need you need some mental time
away unplugged due to chronic over stimulationand physical mental exhaustion. I could see
where there are benefits if you're agood sleeper, you don't struggle from insomnia.

(18:59):
If you have insomnia, that extratime in bed creates behaviors that could
be detrimental to the quality of yoursleep. Oh. Absolutely, you have
to remove yourself from the area thatyou're already having issues. Right, let's
not bring in new issues. Okay, I wanted your hot takes on those
couple of little trending things. AndI can't get over the term bed rotting.
It just sounds so gross to me. I can attest to the fact

(19:21):
that I've suffered with that on occasionmyself. And when you go back to
work on Monday, the guilt associatedwith not being productive all weekend. But
what it does sometimes you know,mentally, lets you just just withdraw,
yeah, and then you can goback to being overstimulated and struggling the next

(19:41):
week. You know, sometimes hopefullyit'll be a better week, but you
know that happens. You know,my ability to forgive myself or release and
let go of some of these pressuresas you know, life and your work
and all of your kids and allthe things that are going on. Sometimes
that mental break of no. Mybody is literally telling me I need this.

(20:03):
I need to not be social fora weekend or for a full day,
and I have this deep desire tojust lay around and relax. And
I find my bed incredibly comfortable,and this room is so cozy, and
I might spend two hours on aSaturday morning just enjoying coffee, reading a
book and snuggling in my space.I'm releasing and letting go any of that

(20:26):
guilt, even if it meant Imissed out on three loads of laundry.
Yeah, that laundry will still bethere, no matter what. It's always
going to be there. There's alwaysgoing to be dishes to do, There's
always going to be those things.One of the caveats I feel is important
is that I do feel people waittoo long, and then by the time
they do decide to separate sleeping arrangements, and it's usually one of the partners

(20:48):
who's got some frustration or some hurtabout being alienated. Once you've waited so
long's there's almost such resentment that Idon't see as much much success in that
in that doing the partial separation.You know, where you go back to
the bedroom on the weekends, there'sless of that. It's almost like that

(21:10):
people wait until there's no going back, which I wish people would be a
little more flexible and understand that ifyou implement a change on better terms before
things are really really broke, thatthe possibility of having a positive outcome will
be higher. That's a really greatpiece of advice. Even the smartphone makers

(21:30):
say you should never let your batteryget all the way down to zero before
you plug it into charge. Thatyou're diminishing the life of the battery.
That it will never charge to onehundred percent again. You will have drained
it to a point where maybe thebest you get is eighty percent now,
the next time around seventy five percent. This is your last ditch effort,
because there might not be coming backfrom it. Yes, I think we

(21:52):
can all, in at least atiny way, identify with some sort of
sleep issues. If you do havea partner that you're sleeping with, new
tries that they could help with theirsleeping arrangement and getting better sleep. We
just want to always add better qualitysleep to our life. Spring Huffman,
Sleep expert APRN at Essentia Health,part of the Sleep Medicine Specialist program over
there. I appreciate your time somuch and thank you for being a return

(22:15):
guest on our Dare to Ask podcast. All right, thank you. I'm
glad to be here. I'm soglad that Spring shared her wealth of knowledge
with us, because I think theidea that sleep divorce carries this stigma,
but in reality, I think we'veall learned it's really not that big of
a deal. It could actually bea huge benefit to your life and it
doesn't mean you have to be onehundred percent and maybe some things that could

(22:38):
help you get a better night's sleepor your partner and ultimately going to help
our health if we do. Can'twait for next time. We'll see you
next week on the Dare to Askpodcast. The information contained in this podcast
is not intended to be a substitutefor personalized professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. The information is generalin nature. If you have questions or

(22:59):
concern, please contact your provider.M