April 19, 2023 • 34 mins
In this episode, Marnie Ogg interviews Chris Tugwell, a South Australian man based in Adelaide who is a film writer, land care worker, and a Dark Sky entrepreneur. Chris shares his passion for making things happen, and how he transformed a small patch of private land on the Murray River into Australia's first Dark Sky Reserve. Through his connections with local government, tourism providers, and the general community, Chris expanded the area and made it a top tourist destination. Marnie and Chris discuss the importance of conservation efforts and how we can all be inspired to create more Dark Sky spaces. This interview is presented as part of International Dark Sky Week 2023. For more details and resources for International Dark Sky Week, please visit https://www.darksky.org Email Marnie: - marnie@darkskytraveller.com.au Marnie Ogg talks with some of the brightest minds about light pollution and ways to protect our night skies. For more details, visit the Dark Sky website: https://www.darkskytraveller.com.au/podcast Subscribe, rate and review at Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify and all good podcast apps. Stream on demand from https://www.bitesz.com/show/dark-sky-conversations/ For more podcasts visit our HQ at https://bitesz.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Thank you dark sky listeners. Myname is Marnie Ogg and today I'm conversing
with Chris Talkall, who is aSouth Australian man based in Adelaide, a
film writer, a land care workerand really a dark sky entrepreneur. His
love and passion to make things happenis completely evident in this conversation and it's
(00:25):
his connections with local government, tourismproviders, technical and his assistance and the
general community that have really made asmall patch of private land Herne from scrape
Land to Australia's first dark sky reserveon the Murray River, about ninety minutes
out of the capital of South Australiain Adelaide. So I love chatting with
(00:51):
Chris because his conservation efforts have reallyexpanded this area and really made it a
number one tourist destination for everyone toget to and I think it's absolutely admirable.
So join us as you may alsobe inspired to create another dark sky
space. They keep high. Witha flick of a switch, we turn
(01:14):
night to day and day tonight wecan change seasons, actions and states of
mind. Light is everywhere used endlesslyand very much a part of our modern
world. But what is it,how do we use it? And how
is it changing our environment and ourbehaviors? A starfield sky used to be
(01:34):
our evening's entertainment. Now it's Netflix, iPads or even a podcast. When
was the last time you looked atthe night sky? I'm Maniog and this
is Dark Sky Conversations, the podcastthat brings people and science together to shared
life. Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Who knows what time
(01:57):
of the day you're listening to thispodcast. Maybe it's give it it's Dark
Sky Conversations. But today my guestis Chris Tugwell. And I've always said
that the best way to ask somebodyabout what they do in life is to
get them to do it themselves.So Chris, tell me a little bit
about yourself and how you got tobe involved in Dark Skies. It's a
bit of a long journey, butI'll give you the short version. I
(02:21):
actually started. I trained as anactor and dancer. So I worked in
the theater for quite a long time. And because that the arts are always
crazy, you can be in workfor quite a while and then suddenly it
stops. And so I became ateacher and I worked in Wayala, which
(02:44):
is a regional city in South Australia. I loved teaching, it was fantastic,
but I felt the call for theacting part of my life. I
didn't want to give it a misscompletely, and so I came back to
Adelaide and worked in youth theater,mostly performing in schools, doing our shows
(03:06):
primary school kids, doing tours intocountry towns all over the state. And
that's how I got involved in writing. Eventually I started writing theater players and
still on four young young performist,poor young audiences fabulous and so that was
sort of the writing journey. Andmy partner and I, she's a psychiatric
(03:32):
nurse, and we've always been interestedin the environment, and we decided back
in the nineties to try and finda block of land something to do some
revegetation and regeneration of somewhere that reallyneeded it. And we were looking for
(03:53):
ten acres and we somehow ended upwith three hundred and fifty and this was
on the River Murray, on topof the cliffs at a place called Big
Bend, and it is a placewhere the night sky is absolutely extraordinary.
And so we've sat around bush fires, camp camp fires, looking at the
(04:18):
stars there and just thinking this isamazing. And then I heard about the
Dark Sky movement, and because ofour regenerate revegetation work and so on,
we got involved in vand care andI got onto the committee of the Mid
(04:40):
Maryland Care Committee and suggested to themthat we might be able to do something
about creating some kind of dark skyplace in the region. And I thought
they'd think I was crazy and justsaying, you know, forget about it,
but they didn't. They said,great idea, go off and see
what you can do. And that'sactually rather about when you and I met,
(05:04):
because I came to the conference inInsiding Spring and which I found an
incredibly inspiring event, and part ofthat gave us the impetus to talk to
a council get them motivated. They'vebeen absolutely amazing. Midcomary Council have been
(05:25):
really extraordinary in supporting this, andso what we've ended up with is a
three and a half thousand square kilometerDark Sky Reserve, which is kind of
bigger than I imagined in the beginning, but it's a combination of townships,
conservation parks, private land, pastoralland, all sorts of all sorts of
(05:49):
different areas come under this Dark SkyReserve, and that involves, as you
know, council adopting duck Stye policies, lighting management plans, and so on.
So it's been an extraordinarily complicated journey. I've learned things I never thought
(06:12):
I needed to know. But Ithink one of the things going back to
the arts is I think what I'vefound is the way that people argue about
or discuss art projects is always tosee the positives in it and to say
this is going to be fantastic,you'll love it. And the dark Sky
(06:34):
people that I talk to at thebeginning were always saying, all light pollution
is really bad. You've got todo something about it. And most people
you've talked to haven't even heard aboutlight pollution, so you've got to start.
But they have heard of the nightsky. Oh yes, that's right.
See they don't see the two thatthey haven't given that any thought.
(07:00):
There is an impact between what theydo and the darkness. Yeah. So
yeah, so let's pull that thatthat that prices apart a little bit.
So you got your block of you'relooking for your block of ten acres and
then got three hundred and fifty umand so were you already involved with land
Care then it was afterwards that yougot involved. We we were looking for
(07:24):
a way to actually do some revegetation, and we first got involved with
Trees for Life and we started plantingseedlings and so on. But when you're
dealing with the property that size,planting seedlings by hand is really hard work.
Especially the property that we ended upwith has sheet limestone across it and
(07:46):
that makes digging holes incredibly difficult.So we heard about some funding that was
available through land Care to do directseeding, so we did. We applied
for some funding for that. Wegot money to do ten kilometers worth of
(08:07):
direct seeding, which sounds like alot um and that was done in one
year. And then we went backand said can we have some mold and
they said yes, and for eightyears in a row they gave us money.
So we've done eighty kilometers worth ofdirect seeding on our property. So
that's and that was when When whendid you start doing that? Was what
(08:31):
early approximately two thousand was five,I think maybe so most seed So you
were developing this relationship with with afew different parties. You were sort of
re revegetating and what had degenerated theland. Was it graz It was a
sheep station, it had been ithad had sheep on it for over a
(08:52):
hundred years, so it was therewas We called the property three Trees because
we have three magnificent five hundred yearold mallee trees on the property and that
was about all there was. Everythingelse was below an cale height. It
was really terribly abused, so wefelt it needed a bit of rubbing care
(09:18):
and a bit of a bit ofhelp because there wasn't any And how far
away is that from sorry? Goyep, sorry, there's a bit of
a lag here yet how far Iwas going to ask, how far away
is this from town from Adelaide ifI wanted to go out and see two
hours? Yeah, it's about onehundred and twenty kilometers only, Yeah,
it's so far. And that's beenone of the extraordinary things that in talking
(09:41):
about this Dark Sky Reserve is we'vebeen able to say this is nineteen minutes.
The middle of the reserve is ninetyminutes from an international airport. You
can get to somewhere that's one ofthe darkest places in the world in no
time at all, and magnificent experience. So that's something. And so who
(10:05):
have you been, Who have youbeen selling this too? Who have you've
been Have you had international gifts?Have you been able to appeal to us?
Well, the local tourism people aredoing exactly that we've had. I
mean, we got the international recognitionin November twenty nineteen and then of course
(10:26):
COVID hit two months later, andso we kind of ground to a halt.
But in another way it gave usan advantage because we could prepare for
when visitors started to come back again. Um, So tour operators and council
people have been able to sort ofget their heads around this as a as
(10:50):
a concept. They love the idea, they can see the advantages of it.
They can understand that you know too, and to see the Nights guy,
you have to stay at least onenight, so that means you've got
to have, you know, ameal or accommodation and all of those other
things that come with it. Andso there are a tour of people who've
(11:13):
set up some fantastic experiences for people. And one of the nicest things is
that we have inside the reserve aconservation park called nort which is an Aboriginal
site that has been occupied for morethan six thousand years, and it has
(11:35):
it's right on the banks of theriver, and it has carvings in the
in the cliffs which show the phasesof the moon. And so this is
a place where you can say,you know, the people have been observing
the stars for six thousand years,which is pretty impression. It is,
yes, and I think one ofthe things it is absolutely amazing. I
(12:00):
have to admit I haven't been thereyet, so I'm going to have to
get my way down there. Butone thing we haven't sort of mentioned to
people who might be listening to thisfrom other places around the world is this
is on the Murray River, whichis a really famous, really important part
of Australian culture for tens of thousandsof years. And yeah, and to
(12:22):
sort of preserve that part of Australianot just during the day but during the
night as well is a fabulous feat. The interesting thing I've noticed is that
the people haven't really ever thought aboutthe night sky as an asset. They
haven't actually seen it as part ofthe environment. Even so when you can
(12:43):
talk about it as in that way, people begin to sort of switch on.
They understand they get and that's beena wonderful thing. The community support
has been extraordinary. We got abouteighty support methods for our application to the
(13:05):
Sky Association, and that included justgeneral public progress, Association, schools UM.
We got even a letter from ProfessorBryan Schmidt, the Nobel Prize winner,
so we had a massive range ofsupport. It was a just astronomers,
(13:28):
it was the community as well.That's amazing. And so you talk
about the impact while the actions thatthe council went through and helped you,
and and they've been supportive. Sowhat what did you do to engage them
into that? You know, becauseyou could easily often they you know,
(13:50):
you talk about reducing light and theyimmediately turned around as our safety concerns and
blah blah blah blah. Why doyou think they embraced it? And was
it a long process to get themon board? It wasn't. Actually the
first meeting I had with a costleperson, before I'd even sat down in
(14:11):
the room, they said, beforewe start, I just want you to
know I think this is a fantasticidea. So that was our starting point
and so I think they could alreadysee the way they were looking at it
is that there are a number ofcommunities across this area, a dozen very
(14:33):
small towns that have basically no tourisminfrastructure at all. And what they could
see, the castle could see thatwe've got all of these little towns that
do really well along the river.You know, they get the easter New
Year, you know, the fantasticwater sports, all of that sort of
(14:54):
stuff, canoeing, you name,but the townships away from the river don't
get any of that. And theycould see that the Dark Sky Reserve could
bring that into these tiny towns,which are really dark. It's one of
those things because they're naturally small places. And so they could see a big
(15:18):
opportunity for those townships. And asyou say, extend the people stay who
are staying it, they're all goingto the river and doing all those things.
You know. It's one of thebiggest things that I talk about when
I try and pitch to different placesaround a strata to become Dark Skys that
you know you do you have,as you said, you've immediately got an
(15:41):
extra night and you've got longer,longer stays because people probably are sleeping in,
they want to have breakfast and allthe rest of it, so exactly,
Yeah, that's right. And alsoit gives people another it's another market
for people to promote. If they'rerunning US tourism business, they add this
(16:02):
arm to I think one of thethings that's been really quite exciting. You
wouldn't expect this that real estate agentsare now advertising that this property is inside
the Dark Sky Reserve and so it'sgot that sort of cue us now for
(16:23):
even that's absolutely fabulous. I'm soproud of you. I just think it's
amazing what you've done down there andmanyways. You know, I'll definitely take
my hat off to you because Idon't know how you've done it, but
there's such a buzz down there wherepeople are really getting involved in you know,
(16:45):
I've seen things like limousine Dark Skytransfer, so you know, you
but you can look at the sitin the back of the car and a
couple of the stars as you gothrough, and I just think, you
know, this is great. There'sa real entrepreneurial spirit there. There's an
interest in engaging with it. Andyeah, yeah, I think of all
the Dark Sky places in Australia,which is only three, you're definitely the
(17:07):
group that have taken it and runwith it and really made it a destiny.
Very excited by the response. Imean, for example, the Tourism
Commission here decided to promote the reserveby painting a tram in Adelaide running through
(17:30):
the city center and had Dark Skyimages all over the tram and that was
running along around Adelaide streets for sixmonths last year. And our local school,
which is Sony, I don't know, forty students, perhaps the senior
(17:56):
students decided when Elizabeth died they wantedto go down to Adelaide to write in
the memorial book. That was atGovernment House. Government House in Adelaide is
on North Terrace. The tram goesalong North Terrace and they they were going
(18:17):
to catch a tram and which oneshould show up but the Dark Sky tram.
And so these kids from the DarkSky Reserve got to travel on the
Dark Sky tram. And I justthink that's so dunning. They can see
that they live somewhere special and it'sright there, it's in the streets of
Adelaide. It's a really, reallysomething celebrated. So my next project is
(18:45):
to create an arts festival. TheDark Sky Arts Festival is my next,
because of course that's where I comes. Yes, well that would and I
think that's the thing. Is itthat we need to find different ways to
speak to different audiences, you know, I think it's there's there's definitely we
(19:11):
talk very well between each other abouthow we create dark sky places and the
benefits of it, et cetera.But we're all singing from the same so,
you know, say pages, andwhat we actually need to do is
get out and then talk to differentpeople and get other people involved and things
like the arts would be fabulous.Have you seen Have you seen that festival?
(19:32):
And I think it's somewhere. Itmust be somewhere in the center of
America because it's in the desert andthey have all these night installations which are
basically there's nothing let up, ofcourse, but you're actually using the starlight
to look through the installation up tothe night sky and getting the silhouette of
it. I can't remember where itis. And that's the idea. We're
(19:52):
going to do a test run thisyear. Well, I hope if we
get the funding that is going totry Music in the Dark event, which
is based on the anti Cithera mechanism, which I don't know if you know
about which as well, Yes,that you could explain it to our audience.
Ancient device which predicts the movement ofthe Sun and the planets. It
(20:18):
was it was made more than twothousand years ago, which is absolutely a
sound ship and was found in ashipwreck off the coast of the small island
of Anti Cithera in the Greek Islands. And there's a two musicians in South
(20:38):
Australia at the Elder Conservatorium who've createda work that is based on the sort
of randomness of the mechanism, sothat if, for example, Jupiter is
rising on the particular night of theperformance, then the Jupiter part of the
music will play and so on.So each night the music will be different
(21:03):
each night depending on what's in thesky. It will get a totally different
experience. So something like that,Wow, it would be really really stunning.
And we've already got out work.I'm sorry to interrupt. No,
No, there's a very boring thingin Adelaide called the Manum to Adelaide Pipeline.
(21:26):
It's a it's a concrete pipeline thatgoes all the way from the river
to Adelaide and it's been supplying waterfor I don't know sixty years, and
for about sixty years people have beensaying we should really paint that thing.
It's really ugly. And last yearwe managed to get some funding through the
(21:48):
through Essay Water and also do Luxproviding the paint. We got to get
the first Dark Sky mural painted onthe on the pipeline. So we've down
about five hundred meters, but there'sstill a lot to go. How much
(22:08):
how many tensive kilometers? Oh,you've got to start somewhere. That's amazing.
You're listening to Dark Sky Conversations withMarnie. We'll be right back after
these messages from our sponsors. Yeah. All I was going to say before
(22:33):
is tell me when you get whenyou have the anti Kithera playing, and
I'll bring a group down. Ohyes, well, yes, we're hoping
later this year and okay, weyou will. We're hoping to actually have
a replica of the antigether mechanism ondisplay as well. Her great, So
(22:55):
it's it's exciting. Yeah it is. And And would you say you're the
main driver behind these or are they? Now? We know little groups of
you doing all sorts of amazing projects. Well, I when I started this,
I didn't know I didn't even knowyou could measure the darkness that I
didn't didn't know anything about the scientificside of dark sky stuff. I just
(23:21):
thought it was a neat idea andI thought, you know, it was
pretty dark. But I've managed toover this time be introduced and worked with
a bunch of astronomers and scientists whohave been doing all of this a very
long time and proved that, youknow, this is really astoundingly dark.
(23:47):
So I think we've sort of playedoff each other really well. I think
the Astronomic or Society has been promotingthe reserve now to its members, and
they've been saying it's one of thebest places to see the stars that they
know of, So, you know, from that sort of scientific side,
it's nice to have it confirmed.You know. It was just an instinct
(24:11):
in my mind. And I Iremember talking to one of the people at
the council, one of the peopleat the just at the front desk,
and she said, I thought peoplecould see the Milky Way. I see
it out of my back door everynight, doesn't everyone, And you know
when you say no, they can't. And Jase, she said, well,
(24:33):
those poor people. So you know, we have is special. And
it's going back to the comment thatyou made before that, and I think
you commented that we don't see thenight sky as an asset. And I
think that that's partly because most ofthe Stralia, you know, even in
(24:56):
Sydney, you probably only have todrive a couple of hours out of see
need to see a fairly good darksky, you know, compare comparatively,
particularly with any of the Northern Hemispherecountries, etc. But we've taken it
for granted and we just can't.We can't let it disappear. You know,
it's a natural resource that we arevery very fortunate to have and hopefully,
(25:22):
yeah, we can preserve most ofit and even turn some of the
bad sites backwards and like it.Well, I've been very fortunate to visit
Taiwan, I said earlier. Mypartner's a psychiatric nurse, but she's also
a textile artist and she's been teachingworkshops in various places, including Japan and
(25:45):
more recently Taiwan. And because Iwas talking to our Taiwanese friends about the
Dark Sky Reserve, because that's whatthey do whenever I go anywhere. Yeah,
they took us to the mountains inTaiwan. They took us to an
open air restaurant called Gateway to theGalaxy, and that was on the top
(26:11):
of a mountain, very good,low lighting, wonderful place, and we
saw four stars. It was aclear night, there was no moon.
And then when our friends came fromTaiwan here, we took them up to
our place on the river and theywere literally speechless. One of them said,
(26:37):
I thought you could only see thismany stars from space. So that's
the thing. We've got this massiveopportunity to teach people in the you know,
in China and in Asia, Japan, all of those people can fly
direct to Adelaide, and you know, in ninety minutes they can have of
the most extraordinary experience. I spokento one of the tour operators who does
(27:03):
tours just literally down the road fromour property, and he does spotlighting for
you know, native animals, wombats, kangaroos and so on, and he
makes a point every time of stoppingand turning the lights off so that people
conceive the stars. And some peopleburst into tears because they've never seen it.
(27:26):
They it's so completely beyond what theyexpect. So It really is a
very very special experience. It isor inspiring, and it is that I
was very fortunate to hear a beautifulpiece of music the other night, and
(27:47):
the acoustics were so fabulous, andwe were completely immersed in this sound,
and it was probably the first timein my life that I literally had goosebumps,
and you know, here's my nextstanding up, and I had tears
running down my face, and Iwas thinking, this is how I've seen
people react to the night sky.It's just a it's a completely body sensation
(28:15):
of something over overtaking, overwhelming,and yeah, yeah, yeah, so
that kind of explains that, youknow, it has taken over my life,
that wasn't Are you still writing scriptsand things groups or are you doing
(28:36):
any movie stuff the youth work?Yeah, all right, okay, yeah,
I'm attempting to write a novel atthe moment. Yeah. So it
has that elements in its surprise surprise. Yeah, I think it's right.
It once it's a bit like takingthe blue peel when the matrix isn't it
(29:00):
all the red pit. Once you'vedone it, you can't you just can't
turn back from you know, youwant to talk to people about dark skies
and the benefits and because they're sowide reach, I've had such fantastic I've
made so many wonderful connections because ofit and learned so much. I mean,
for example, one of the firstpeople I was introduced to was Andrew
(29:21):
Cool, who has been measuring thedarkness in this region and for thirty years.
He happens to have for brother inlaw. He's got a property not
far from where we are and he'sbeen going there and measuring with artness all
that time. I contacted the VictorianDark Sky Association. Originally, this is
(29:45):
the first thing I did when Istarted, because I didn't know anyone else
to contact. And they said,the two people you should talk to.
One is Andrew Cool and the otheris Martin Loiki. Martin runs the planetarium
more some lakes in Adelaide, andboth of them agreed amounts themselves. Well,
(30:07):
firstly, they had this discussion saying, who is this guy? Anybody
ever heard of him? Is hean astronomer? They are going no,
should we trust him? Oh?Well, so they gave me the benefit
of the doubt, and I'm reallyglad they did. And then Andrew said
to me, well, I've gotthis mate, Don, he's just taken
up astronomy. He's got a placeon the router. He might be able
(30:29):
to help. And I thought thatdoesn't sound very promising. You know,
I'm a beginner. Do we needanother beginner? Well? Don turned out
to be Don Bursall, who isthe Chief Scientist of South Australia. I'm
a former chief scientist. He's retirednow, but his access and his knowledge
in getting into government departments and soon and who to approach and when and
(30:53):
all of that sort of stuff that'sbeen really invaluable. And so, you
know, getting that sort of side, the trust that people have given me
to to say okay, well youwrite that, you write all the stuff,
will take all the measurements and stuff, and too well that it sounds
(31:15):
like the perfect collaboration, isn't it. Really. You know, you've got
the way with the words, you'veyou've you know, you've got someone in
there who knows government. You've gotsomeone there that knows your side. And
we had the complete backing of thecouncil as well. Um, I've spoken
to councilors and they've said to me, you know, when the dark sky
thing comes up, it's the onlything we all agree on. Yeah,
(31:40):
so that's fabulous. Yeah, thatcomplete support and trust has been absolutely wonderful
Um and it's still going on.You know. One of the things that's
happened is because we have the SpaceAgency based in adelaide Um, there are
space industries, space businesses setting upand looking for locations for their equipment,
(32:06):
and they need dark places, theyneed radio silent places, and we had
one one facility has already been builtjust on the boundary of the reserve and
it's a five million dollar facility,and that is going to bring in work.
It's going to bring in opportunities forlocal people. And that's one of
(32:30):
the things I think. You know, young people at the local area school
can think of a career that's goingto keep them in the area. You
know, they can have a scientificcareer if that's what they want and stay,
you know, stay on the river. They don't have to leave.
(32:50):
And it might not be science.It might be tourism, it might be
cultural connection, it could be allthose other benefits exactly, and so those
opportunities are are growing all the time. It's very exciting. Yeah, well,
I think on that note, I'mgonna I'm gonna finish it up.
But I have to say, youknow, well, kudos to you and
(33:14):
your team of supporters, because notonly have you created a future for you
know, the next generation to starwatches about that out there, but you
know, you created Australia's first darksky reserve in an area that was you
know, denuded land that needed youknow, bid of TLC and you've brought
part and salt back to it.And thank you, Mary, thank you
(33:37):
for all your hard work. It'sa lot. Yeah, I am very
proud of it. But um,I think seeing your example, knowing it
was possible, that was something thathelped a lock to um say how we
could go about it, you knowthe things that we still need to do
(34:00):
m and make a really good case, and I think we've managed. And
I just can't wait for the daythat we've got this network of dark sky
places all around the country and thatwe can well my long term plans or
a dark sky state. Sounds likeyou'll have it done next week, Chris.
(34:27):
I have to finish the novel first. Yeah, yeah, Oll,
good luck to you. I don'tdoubt in any way, shape or form
that you'll have that under your belttoo. Good to see you again.
Thanks again for your time,
Thank you dark sky listeners. Myname is Marnie Ogg and today I'm conversing
with Chris Talkall, who is aSouth Australian man based in Adelaide, a
film writer, a land care workerand really a dark sky entrepreneur. His
love and passion to make things happenis completely evident in this conversation and it's
(00:25):
his connections with local government, tourismproviders, technical and his assistance and the
general community that have really made asmall patch of private land Herne from scrape
Land to Australia's first dark sky reserveon the Murray River, about ninety minutes
out of the capital of South Australiain Adelaide. So I love chatting with
(00:51):
Chris because his conservation efforts have reallyexpanded this area and really made it a
number one tourist destination for everyone toget to and I think it's absolutely admirable.
So join us as you may alsobe inspired to create another dark sky
space. They keep high. Witha flick of a switch, we turn
(01:14):
night to day and day tonight wecan change seasons, actions and states of
mind. Light is everywhere used endlesslyand very much a part of our modern
world. But what is it,how do we use it? And how
is it changing our environment and ourbehaviors? A starfield sky used to be
(01:34):
our evening's entertainment. Now it's Netflix, iPads or even a podcast. When
was the last time you looked atthe night sky? I'm Maniog and this
is Dark Sky Conversations, the podcastthat brings people and science together to shared
life. Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Who knows what time
(01:57):
of the day you're listening to thispodcast. Maybe it's give it it's Dark
Sky Conversations. But today my guestis Chris Tugwell. And I've always said
that the best way to ask somebodyabout what they do in life is to
get them to do it themselves.So Chris, tell me a little bit
about yourself and how you got tobe involved in Dark Skies. It's a
bit of a long journey, butI'll give you the short version. I
(02:21):
actually started. I trained as anactor and dancer. So I worked in
the theater for quite a long time. And because that the arts are always
crazy, you can be in workfor quite a while and then suddenly it
stops. And so I became ateacher and I worked in Wayala, which
(02:44):
is a regional city in South Australia. I loved teaching, it was fantastic,
but I felt the call for theacting part of my life. I
didn't want to give it a misscompletely, and so I came back to
Adelaide and worked in youth theater,mostly performing in schools, doing our shows
(03:06):
primary school kids, doing tours intocountry towns all over the state. And
that's how I got involved in writing. Eventually I started writing theater players and
still on four young young performist,poor young audiences fabulous and so that was
sort of the writing journey. Andmy partner and I, she's a psychiatric
(03:32):
nurse, and we've always been interestedin the environment, and we decided back
in the nineties to try and finda block of land something to do some
revegetation and regeneration of somewhere that reallyneeded it. And we were looking for
(03:53):
ten acres and we somehow ended upwith three hundred and fifty and this was
on the River Murray, on topof the cliffs at a place called Big
Bend, and it is a placewhere the night sky is absolutely extraordinary.
And so we've sat around bush fires, camp camp fires, looking at the
(04:18):
stars there and just thinking this isamazing. And then I heard about the
Dark Sky movement, and because ofour regenerate revegetation work and so on,
we got involved in vand care andI got onto the committee of the Mid
(04:40):
Maryland Care Committee and suggested to themthat we might be able to do something
about creating some kind of dark skyplace in the region. And I thought
they'd think I was crazy and justsaying, you know, forget about it,
but they didn't. They said,great idea, go off and see
what you can do. And that'sactually rather about when you and I met,
(05:04):
because I came to the conference inInsiding Spring and which I found an
incredibly inspiring event, and part ofthat gave us the impetus to talk to
a council get them motivated. They'vebeen absolutely amazing. Midcomary Council have been
(05:25):
really extraordinary in supporting this, andso what we've ended up with is a
three and a half thousand square kilometerDark Sky Reserve, which is kind of
bigger than I imagined in the beginning, but it's a combination of townships,
conservation parks, private land, pastoralland, all sorts of all sorts of
(05:49):
different areas come under this Dark SkyReserve, and that involves, as you
know, council adopting duck Stye policies, lighting management plans, and so on.
So it's been an extraordinarily complicated journey. I've learned things I never thought
(06:12):
I needed to know. But Ithink one of the things going back to
the arts is I think what I'vefound is the way that people argue about
or discuss art projects is always tosee the positives in it and to say
this is going to be fantastic,you'll love it. And the dark Sky
(06:34):
people that I talk to at thebeginning were always saying, all light pollution
is really bad. You've got todo something about it. And most people
you've talked to haven't even heard aboutlight pollution, so you've got to start.
But they have heard of the nightsky. Oh yes, that's right.
See they don't see the two thatthey haven't given that any thought.
(07:00):
There is an impact between what theydo and the darkness. Yeah. So
yeah, so let's pull that thatthat that prices apart a little bit.
So you got your block of you'relooking for your block of ten acres and
then got three hundred and fifty umand so were you already involved with land
Care then it was afterwards that yougot involved. We we were looking for
(07:24):
a way to actually do some revegetation, and we first got involved with
Trees for Life and we started plantingseedlings and so on. But when you're
dealing with the property that size,planting seedlings by hand is really hard work.
Especially the property that we ended upwith has sheet limestone across it and
(07:46):
that makes digging holes incredibly difficult.So we heard about some funding that was
available through land Care to do directseeding, so we did. We applied
for some funding for that. Wegot money to do ten kilometers worth of
(08:07):
direct seeding, which sounds like alot um and that was done in one
year. And then we went backand said can we have some mold and
they said yes, and for eightyears in a row they gave us money.
So we've done eighty kilometers worth ofdirect seeding on our property. So
that's and that was when When whendid you start doing that? Was what
(08:31):
early approximately two thousand was five,I think maybe so most seed So you
were developing this relationship with with afew different parties. You were sort of
re revegetating and what had degenerated theland. Was it graz It was a
sheep station, it had been ithad had sheep on it for over a
(08:52):
hundred years, so it was therewas We called the property three Trees because
we have three magnificent five hundred yearold mallee trees on the property and that
was about all there was. Everythingelse was below an cale height. It
was really terribly abused, so wefelt it needed a bit of rubbing care
(09:18):
and a bit of a bit ofhelp because there wasn't any And how far
away is that from sorry? Goyep, sorry, there's a bit of
a lag here yet how far Iwas going to ask, how far away
is this from town from Adelaide ifI wanted to go out and see two
hours? Yeah, it's about onehundred and twenty kilometers only, Yeah,
it's so far. And that's beenone of the extraordinary things that in talking
(09:41):
about this Dark Sky Reserve is we'vebeen able to say this is nineteen minutes.
The middle of the reserve is ninetyminutes from an international airport. You
can get to somewhere that's one ofthe darkest places in the world in no
time at all, and magnificent experience. So that's something. And so who
(10:05):
have you been, Who have youbeen selling this too? Who have you've
been Have you had international gifts?Have you been able to appeal to us?
Well, the local tourism people aredoing exactly that we've had. I
mean, we got the international recognitionin November twenty nineteen and then of course
(10:26):
COVID hit two months later, andso we kind of ground to a halt.
But in another way it gave usan advantage because we could prepare for
when visitors started to come back again. Um, So tour operators and council
people have been able to sort ofget their heads around this as a as
(10:50):
a concept. They love the idea, they can see the advantages of it.
They can understand that you know too, and to see the Nights guy,
you have to stay at least onenight, so that means you've got
to have, you know, ameal or accommodation and all of those other
things that come with it. Andso there are a tour of people who've
(11:13):
set up some fantastic experiences for people. And one of the nicest things is
that we have inside the reserve aconservation park called nort which is an Aboriginal
site that has been occupied for morethan six thousand years, and it has
(11:35):
it's right on the banks of theriver, and it has carvings in the
in the cliffs which show the phasesof the moon. And so this is
a place where you can say,you know, the people have been observing
the stars for six thousand years,which is pretty impression. It is,
yes, and I think one ofthe things it is absolutely amazing. I
(12:00):
have to admit I haven't been thereyet, so I'm going to have to
get my way down there. Butone thing we haven't sort of mentioned to
people who might be listening to thisfrom other places around the world is this
is on the Murray River, whichis a really famous, really important part
of Australian culture for tens of thousandsof years. And yeah, and to
(12:22):
sort of preserve that part of Australianot just during the day but during the
night as well is a fabulous feat. The interesting thing I've noticed is that
the people haven't really ever thought aboutthe night sky as an asset. They
haven't actually seen it as part ofthe environment. Even so when you can
(12:43):
talk about it as in that way, people begin to sort of switch on.
They understand they get and that's beena wonderful thing. The community support
has been extraordinary. We got abouteighty support methods for our application to the
(13:05):
Sky Association, and that included justgeneral public progress, Association, schools UM.
We got even a letter from ProfessorBryan Schmidt, the Nobel Prize winner,
so we had a massive range ofsupport. It was a just astronomers,
(13:28):
it was the community as well.That's amazing. And so you talk
about the impact while the actions thatthe council went through and helped you,
and and they've been supportive. Sowhat what did you do to engage them
into that? You know, becauseyou could easily often they you know,
(13:50):
you talk about reducing light and theyimmediately turned around as our safety concerns and
blah blah blah blah. Why doyou think they embraced it? And was
it a long process to get themon board? It wasn't. Actually the
first meeting I had with a costleperson, before I'd even sat down in
(14:11):
the room, they said, beforewe start, I just want you to
know I think this is a fantasticidea. So that was our starting point
and so I think they could alreadysee the way they were looking at it
is that there are a number ofcommunities across this area, a dozen very
(14:33):
small towns that have basically no tourisminfrastructure at all. And what they could
see, the castle could see thatwe've got all of these little towns that
do really well along the river.You know, they get the easter New
Year, you know, the fantasticwater sports, all of that sort of
(14:54):
stuff, canoeing, you name,but the townships away from the river don't
get any of that. And theycould see that the Dark Sky Reserve could
bring that into these tiny towns,which are really dark. It's one of
those things because they're naturally small places. And so they could see a big
(15:18):
opportunity for those townships. And asyou say, extend the people stay who
are staying it, they're all goingto the river and doing all those things.
You know. It's one of thebiggest things that I talk about when
I try and pitch to different placesaround a strata to become Dark Skys that
you know you do you have,as you said, you've immediately got an
(15:41):
extra night and you've got longer,longer stays because people probably are sleeping in,
they want to have breakfast and allthe rest of it, so exactly,
Yeah, that's right. And alsoit gives people another it's another market
for people to promote. If they'rerunning US tourism business, they add this
(16:02):
arm to I think one of thethings that's been really quite exciting. You
wouldn't expect this that real estate agentsare now advertising that this property is inside
the Dark Sky Reserve and so it'sgot that sort of cue us now for
(16:23):
even that's absolutely fabulous. I'm soproud of you. I just think it's
amazing what you've done down there andmanyways. You know, I'll definitely take
my hat off to you because Idon't know how you've done it, but
there's such a buzz down there wherepeople are really getting involved in you know,
(16:45):
I've seen things like limousine Dark Skytransfer, so you know, you
but you can look at the sitin the back of the car and a
couple of the stars as you gothrough, and I just think, you
know, this is great. There'sa real entrepreneurial spirit there. There's an
interest in engaging with it. Andyeah, yeah, I think of all
the Dark Sky places in Australia,which is only three, you're definitely the
(17:07):
group that have taken it and runwith it and really made it a destiny.
Very excited by the response. Imean, for example, the Tourism
Commission here decided to promote the reserveby painting a tram in Adelaide running through
(17:30):
the city center and had Dark Skyimages all over the tram and that was
running along around Adelaide streets for sixmonths last year. And our local school,
which is Sony, I don't know, forty students, perhaps the senior
(17:56):
students decided when Elizabeth died they wantedto go down to Adelaide to write in
the memorial book. That was atGovernment House. Government House in Adelaide is
on North Terrace. The tram goesalong North Terrace and they they were going
(18:17):
to catch a tram and which oneshould show up but the Dark Sky tram.
And so these kids from the DarkSky Reserve got to travel on the
Dark Sky tram. And I justthink that's so dunning. They can see
that they live somewhere special and it'sright there, it's in the streets of
Adelaide. It's a really, reallysomething celebrated. So my next project is
(18:45):
to create an arts festival. TheDark Sky Arts Festival is my next,
because of course that's where I comes. Yes, well that would and I
think that's the thing. Is itthat we need to find different ways to
speak to different audiences, you know, I think it's there's there's definitely we
(19:11):
talk very well between each other abouthow we create dark sky places and the
benefits of it, et cetera.But we're all singing from the same so,
you know, say pages, andwhat we actually need to do is
get out and then talk to differentpeople and get other people involved and things
like the arts would be fabulous.Have you seen Have you seen that festival?
(19:32):
And I think it's somewhere. Itmust be somewhere in the center of
America because it's in the desert andthey have all these night installations which are
basically there's nothing let up, ofcourse, but you're actually using the starlight
to look through the installation up tothe night sky and getting the silhouette of
it. I can't remember where itis. And that's the idea. We're
(19:52):
going to do a test run thisyear. Well, I hope if we
get the funding that is going totry Music in the Dark event, which
is based on the anti Cithera mechanism, which I don't know if you know
about which as well, Yes,that you could explain it to our audience.
Ancient device which predicts the movement ofthe Sun and the planets. It
(20:18):
was it was made more than twothousand years ago, which is absolutely a
sound ship and was found in ashipwreck off the coast of the small island
of Anti Cithera in the Greek Islands. And there's a two musicians in South
(20:38):
Australia at the Elder Conservatorium who've createda work that is based on the sort
of randomness of the mechanism, sothat if, for example, Jupiter is
rising on the particular night of theperformance, then the Jupiter part of the
music will play and so on.So each night the music will be different
(21:03):
each night depending on what's in thesky. It will get a totally different
experience. So something like that,Wow, it would be really really stunning.
And we've already got out work.I'm sorry to interrupt. No,
No, there's a very boring thingin Adelaide called the Manum to Adelaide Pipeline.
(21:26):
It's a it's a concrete pipeline thatgoes all the way from the river
to Adelaide and it's been supplying waterfor I don't know sixty years, and
for about sixty years people have beensaying we should really paint that thing.
It's really ugly. And last yearwe managed to get some funding through the
(21:48):
through Essay Water and also do Luxproviding the paint. We got to get
the first Dark Sky mural painted onthe on the pipeline. So we've down
about five hundred meters, but there'sstill a lot to go. How much
(22:08):
how many tensive kilometers? Oh,you've got to start somewhere. That's amazing.
You're listening to Dark Sky Conversations withMarnie. We'll be right back after
these messages from our sponsors. Yeah. All I was going to say before
(22:33):
is tell me when you get whenyou have the anti Kithera playing, and
I'll bring a group down. Ohyes, well, yes, we're hoping
later this year and okay, weyou will. We're hoping to actually have
a replica of the antigether mechanism ondisplay as well. Her great, So
(22:55):
it's it's exciting. Yeah it is. And And would you say you're the
main driver behind these or are they? Now? We know little groups of
you doing all sorts of amazing projects. Well, I when I started this,
I didn't know I didn't even knowyou could measure the darkness that I
didn't didn't know anything about the scientificside of dark sky stuff. I just
(23:21):
thought it was a neat idea andI thought, you know, it was
pretty dark. But I've managed toover this time be introduced and worked with
a bunch of astronomers and scientists whohave been doing all of this a very
long time and proved that, youknow, this is really astoundingly dark.
(23:47):
So I think we've sort of playedoff each other really well. I think
the Astronomic or Society has been promotingthe reserve now to its members, and
they've been saying it's one of thebest places to see the stars that they
know of, So, you know, from that sort of scientific side,
it's nice to have it confirmed.You know. It was just an instinct
(24:11):
in my mind. And I Iremember talking to one of the people at
the council, one of the peopleat the just at the front desk,
and she said, I thought peoplecould see the Milky Way. I see
it out of my back door everynight, doesn't everyone, And you know
when you say no, they can't. And Jase, she said, well,
(24:33):
those poor people. So you know, we have is special. And
it's going back to the comment thatyou made before that, and I think
you commented that we don't see thenight sky as an asset. And I
think that that's partly because most ofthe Stralia, you know, even in
(24:56):
Sydney, you probably only have todrive a couple of hours out of see
need to see a fairly good darksky, you know, compare comparatively,
particularly with any of the Northern Hemispherecountries, etc. But we've taken it
for granted and we just can't.We can't let it disappear. You know,
it's a natural resource that we arevery very fortunate to have and hopefully,
(25:22):
yeah, we can preserve most ofit and even turn some of the
bad sites backwards and like it.Well, I've been very fortunate to visit
Taiwan, I said earlier. Mypartner's a psychiatric nurse, but she's also
a textile artist and she's been teachingworkshops in various places, including Japan and
(25:45):
more recently Taiwan. And because Iwas talking to our Taiwanese friends about the
Dark Sky Reserve, because that's whatthey do whenever I go anywhere. Yeah,
they took us to the mountains inTaiwan. They took us to an
open air restaurant called Gateway to theGalaxy, and that was on the top
(26:11):
of a mountain, very good,low lighting, wonderful place, and we
saw four stars. It was aclear night, there was no moon.
And then when our friends came fromTaiwan here, we took them up to
our place on the river and theywere literally speechless. One of them said,
(26:37):
I thought you could only see thismany stars from space. So that's
the thing. We've got this massiveopportunity to teach people in the you know,
in China and in Asia, Japan, all of those people can fly
direct to Adelaide, and you know, in ninety minutes they can have of
the most extraordinary experience. I spokento one of the tour operators who does
(27:03):
tours just literally down the road fromour property, and he does spotlighting for
you know, native animals, wombats, kangaroos and so on, and he
makes a point every time of stoppingand turning the lights off so that people
conceive the stars. And some peopleburst into tears because they've never seen it.
(27:26):
They it's so completely beyond what theyexpect. So It really is a
very very special experience. It isor inspiring, and it is that I
was very fortunate to hear a beautifulpiece of music the other night, and
(27:47):
the acoustics were so fabulous, andwe were completely immersed in this sound,
and it was probably the first timein my life that I literally had goosebumps,
and you know, here's my nextstanding up, and I had tears
running down my face, and Iwas thinking, this is how I've seen
people react to the night sky.It's just a it's a completely body sensation
(28:15):
of something over overtaking, overwhelming,and yeah, yeah, yeah, so
that kind of explains that, youknow, it has taken over my life,
that wasn't Are you still writing scriptsand things groups or are you doing
(28:36):
any movie stuff the youth work?Yeah, all right, okay, yeah,
I'm attempting to write a novel atthe moment. Yeah. So it
has that elements in its surprise surprise. Yeah, I think it's right.
It once it's a bit like takingthe blue peel when the matrix isn't it
(29:00):
all the red pit. Once you'vedone it, you can't you just can't
turn back from you know, youwant to talk to people about dark skies
and the benefits and because they're sowide reach, I've had such fantastic I've
made so many wonderful connections because ofit and learned so much. I mean,
for example, one of the firstpeople I was introduced to was Andrew
(29:21):
Cool, who has been measuring thedarkness in this region and for thirty years.
He happens to have for brother inlaw. He's got a property not
far from where we are and he'sbeen going there and measuring with artness all
that time. I contacted the VictorianDark Sky Association. Originally, this is
(29:45):
the first thing I did when Istarted, because I didn't know anyone else
to contact. And they said,the two people you should talk to.
One is Andrew Cool and the otheris Martin Loiki. Martin runs the planetarium
more some lakes in Adelaide, andboth of them agreed amounts themselves. Well,
(30:07):
firstly, they had this discussion saying, who is this guy? Anybody
ever heard of him? Is hean astronomer? They are going no,
should we trust him? Oh?Well, so they gave me the benefit
of the doubt, and I'm reallyglad they did. And then Andrew said
to me, well, I've gotthis mate, Don, he's just taken
up astronomy. He's got a placeon the router. He might be able
(30:29):
to help. And I thought thatdoesn't sound very promising. You know,
I'm a beginner. Do we needanother beginner? Well? Don turned out
to be Don Bursall, who isthe Chief Scientist of South Australia. I'm
a former chief scientist. He's retirednow, but his access and his knowledge
in getting into government departments and soon and who to approach and when and
(30:53):
all of that sort of stuff that'sbeen really invaluable. And so, you
know, getting that sort of side, the trust that people have given me
to to say okay, well youwrite that, you write all the stuff,
will take all the measurements and stuff, and too well that it sounds
(31:15):
like the perfect collaboration, isn't it. Really. You know, you've got
the way with the words, you'veyou've you know, you've got someone in
there who knows government. You've gotsomeone there that knows your side. And
we had the complete backing of thecouncil as well. Um, I've spoken
to councilors and they've said to me, you know, when the dark sky
thing comes up, it's the onlything we all agree on. Yeah,
(31:40):
so that's fabulous. Yeah, thatcomplete support and trust has been absolutely wonderful
Um and it's still going on.You know. One of the things that's
happened is because we have the SpaceAgency based in adelaide Um, there are
space industries, space businesses setting upand looking for locations for their equipment,
(32:06):
and they need dark places, theyneed radio silent places, and we had
one one facility has already been builtjust on the boundary of the reserve and
it's a five million dollar facility,and that is going to bring in work.
It's going to bring in opportunities forlocal people. And that's one of
(32:30):
the things I think. You know, young people at the local area school
can think of a career that's goingto keep them in the area. You
know, they can have a scientificcareer if that's what they want and stay,
you know, stay on the river. They don't have to leave.
(32:50):
And it might not be science.It might be tourism, it might be
cultural connection, it could be allthose other benefits exactly, and so those
opportunities are are growing all the time. It's very exciting. Yeah, well,
I think on that note, I'mgonna I'm gonna finish it up.
But I have to say, youknow, well, kudos to you and
(33:14):
your team of supporters, because notonly have you created a future for you
know, the next generation to starwatches about that out there, but you
know, you created Australia's first darksky reserve in an area that was you
know, denuded land that needed youknow, bid of TLC and you've brought
part and salt back to it.And thank you, Mary, thank you
(33:37):
for all your hard work. It'sa lot. Yeah, I am very
proud of it. But um,I think seeing your example, knowing it
was possible, that was something thathelped a lock to um say how we
could go about it, you knowthe things that we still need to do
(34:00):
m and make a really good case, and I think we've managed. And
I just can't wait for the daythat we've got this network of dark sky
places all around the country and thatwe can well my long term plans or
a dark sky state. Sounds likeyou'll have it done next week, Chris.
(34:27):
I have to finish the novel first. Yeah, yeah, Oll,
good luck to you. I don'tdoubt in any way, shape or form
that you'll have that under your belttoo. Good to see you again.
Thanks again for your time,
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