Ashley Madison's Revealing Survey on Passion and Secrecy with Paul Keable

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Podcasting since two thousand and five. This is the King
of Podcasts Radio Network, KINGO Podcasts dot com Short Kings.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
Is time to clear the air on your dating life.
We're all a little depraved and debaucherous.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
Here is the King of Podcasts.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Thank you for joining me with the program. Appreciate all
of you joining me for this week's episode. We delayed
it a little bit on the publishing of the program
because of the fact I have had a special guest
on with me today. It's gonna get it right into it,
and the fact that I got one of the premier
dating sites and someone from said site to join me
on Here to go and talk about various issues around phenominogamy,

(00:47):
the evolving dynamics of relationships, how women are leading the
trend in unconventional dating spaces. I'm here with the chief
strategy officer at Ashley Madison, shaping the company's strategic direction
emphasized discretion, authenticity, andvation within dating. I'm here with Paul Keeble.
Thanks for being all with me.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Paul, Thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking
time to chat with me today.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
I appreciate you making time. I'll tell you that my
background with Ashley Madison is that I have been on
the site twice. I never pulled the trigger on the subscription,
not because I didn't think I would do well from it,
but what I also felt was, and that's the first
thing I'm going to ask about, is that on some
dating sites, I mean, the intent of Ashley Madison always

(01:29):
appealed to me, going back to when Howard Stern would
go and plug it all the time on his show, right,
That's where I first heard about it, and the idea
is great and it's been you know, Ashley Madison is
an established brand credits. The fact that you're buying credits
to go ahead and have interactions and connections with other
significant others, that was the only thing that I always
had a bit of a thing about. But there are

(01:50):
sites that will do that and some that it won't.
But first off, the bat for that barrier to entry
for people to go and come on in. For me,
I'm one of those people that when it comes to
us like Ashley Madison, I want to be able to
have that free ring access. I know part of it
is probably because you want to be able to at
least scale down the kind of responses that everybody gets,
so it's not so spammy. Tell me about that first

(02:12):
of all, about why they handle so well for people
to go ahead and subscribe and stay subscribed well.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
So, as you mentioned, we work on a credit based system,
not a subscription system. So traditional singles dating sites will
charge you there forty dollars a month regardless of how
active you are. You know whether or not you've made
a connection and whether you're exploring that in real life.
And for those who want to maintain their profile and
their connections, you know that's an ongoing cost. Whereas if

(02:42):
you come to ash Madison, you buy your package of credits.
If you connect with a woman or when you connect
with the woman, should say that conversation could be free
for the rest of the time you're on ash Medicine.
And what's great about this system we find it's two
full for men come on and you choose the people
a little bit more selectively in terms of who you're
going to gauge. And if you make a connection, like
I said, your conversation can continue to be free on

(03:05):
the site, but if you continue that relationship into the
real world in essence clausing your time and actually you
don't lose those credits. You can come back whether it's
a month, six months, you know, and all your credits
are there, so you can continue to use it and
not lose any of the functions. So that's the benefit
to that you're not paying that monthly fee regardless of
your activity level. From the women's perspective, it you know,

(03:28):
forces men not to play be what we call the
spray and pray methodology, where thus wipe on a thousand
women in a and you know, in hope of making
content one and that's really frustrating for women to read
through their inbox to really find who serious and all.
The feedback we received from female dators is that our
methodology is you know, preferable in a sense because it

(03:51):
does limit the inbox deluge that they often get on
a lot of the other sides. From our perspective, we
think it is an advantage for both men and women
to use the credit system that we've employed for the
past twenty plus years.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
So in a moment, we're gonna go ahead and talk
about a trender report that was released by your team
called Authenticity above All Else at greg Figgers for members,
particularly a gen Z side emphasizing on authenticity and personal
desires and relationship structures. So in this what I also
want to figure out is that before we get into
that about the approach to Ashley Madison has compared to

(04:29):
what some of the other dating sits have been doing
very aggressively, because I've been reporting now for several years
some of the changes that some of these sites have
been doing that might be a thirty dollars a month
subscription barrier. Now they want to go ahead and say, well,
you know, there's not a lot of responses getting back,
or a lot of ghosting, a lot of things were
some of the other dating sites that don't follow the

(04:49):
Ashley Madison route, they're trying to now increase the subscription
rate to five hundred dollars, say for you know, a
tender or or even hinge they're talking about. They've already
gone ahead and created upper tiers now to create matchmaking,
not just thinking about the fact that I saw the
movie Materialists a couple of weeks ago, you know, the
idea of matchmaking is that still something a thing, but

(05:11):
then also trying to go and incorporate matchmaking into a
dating app as opposed to doing a person to person
and then the fact that it's person to person, you've
got to pay such a higher barrier to even go
ahead and do that. They're not going to just take
anybody on. I know because I went to one of
those interviews and they want at least three thousand dollars
a month aghead and get involved in that. That's too much.
But when it comes to what you're doing here, Ashley

(05:33):
Madison hasn't had to go through any gimmicks, not any
real significant changes. It's been able to go and stay flux.
Tell me why that is.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
Well, I think the biggest advantage we have is two folds. One,
you know, one really clear and purposeful about the business
that we're in. You know, think about the fact that
our tagline is life the short having it's there, So
from an unambiguous standpoint, people are very aware and clear
as to why you would come to Ashy Madison least
the primary reason, and we can get into some of

(06:03):
the alternate reasons people have been coming to our site
over the years, and that allows, you know, for clarity
of purpose. And the outcome of that from my perspective
is is that we get very intentional data coming to
our site with a clear purpose. And it's it's been
broadening over the years, but I'd still say the vast
majority keeper are coming for a discrete connection, and that

(06:26):
basic community users I think is more authentic. I think
their intentions are a little bit more clear and on
as compared to a lot of other dating sites. And
that's not to denigrate them. It's just that when you
cast a wider net, you create a divers or set
of users, and that makes matches maybe potentially a little
bit more difficult. As you come to Ashy Madison, you know,

(06:48):
people are looking for discrete encounters, and so they're usually
very clear up front about the nature of that encounter,
the parameters of how that's going to function, and the
types of people they're looking for, and so they're not
wasting a lot of time. There's not going to necessarily
be at the kind of ghosting behavior that we see
on more traditional sites. In my opinion, and from that perspective,
given everything we've been through, I think that's one of

(07:10):
the biggest reasons why we're still standing here. Is the
number one married dating app in the world.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, So now into the report itself, So one of
the areas that your addressing right now is that you
address concerns about potential deception, especially physical characteristics, because I mean,
one thing we can talk about is fact that men
and women are both notoriously they want to go and
give the best sense of self. And when they can

(07:35):
go and hide behind the barrier of a dating app
or dating site, they can put filters on. Women will
go and put themselves for themselves in the most you know,
elaborate like you know, it's like, Okay, here's what they
look like at a bachelorette party or at a wedding or
whatever kind of function where they're just absolutely made up.
But that's not representing who that person is going to
be in real life. The same thing guys goes for guys. Okay,

(07:57):
you know, I can tell you that through years of
dating apps, I mean twenty point I go back to
love at AOL. That's how far back I go to dating. Okay,
I'm a chronically single tear. So put it like that,
and I've seen enough of the deception where you know,
you get somebody that comes in and basically will be
a catfish, or they'll have a filter on, or a
picture when they look much skinnier, all those kinds of

(08:17):
things come to play. But that's something that your team
actually really goes into and addresses that. So tell me
about that part in terms of encouraging the most natural, honest,
authentic version of someone to come on to the site
and what they should do good make the best possible matches.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
Well, I think it goes back to the reasons in
rationales people are coming to the site. So, knowing that
we're a Mary dated, the primary you know, objective of
our business is always to help people match who are
looking to step outside of their monogamous primary relationships, and
so discretion me tomes the core attribute. The key thing
for coming to our sete is to use discretion to

(08:57):
find somebody for variety of reasons, but for the most part,
so that the rest of the world and oftentimes their
primary partners are unaware of their activities. So in doing so,
you know, most people will not put up a face
profile picture on their accounts, so you have to you
have to read the profile to get a sense of
who this person is and what they're looking for. Now,
we do have, you know, image functionality, so we do

(09:18):
public images and people you see and usually you get
body parts and you know, more discreet verb visions of
who that person might mean. But then your private locker
can open up later down in the conversation where I
can send my key to a woman and she can
see my private pictures. And the reason why we think
our members are a little bit more authentic and they're
not necessarily using as many of the filters and sort
of sub cofuge that you see in additional dating apps

(09:40):
is because they're not looking for a primary partner. They're
not trying to present their best self. They've already done
that for the most part. They've lived a life, they've
presented their best self. Often they're married, and so when
they come here, they're looking for to fill a very
specific need, something that's missing for their life. So to
pretend to be something they're not is not to their advantage,
whether man horrible, and so I think authenticity becomes a

(10:03):
hallmark of our membership because they're not trying to lure
in their families your best possible partner for their best
possible self, because what they're looking for might be fleeting.
It might be a weekend, it might be six months,
it might be a year, but it's not going to
be your primary partner. That's not the reason you're looking
for Ashley Madison, and so I'm doing so. I think

(10:24):
people tend to be a bit more honest about their
intentions and ultimately what they look like.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
So in the data that's been put in this Authenticity
of All Else twenty twenty five prim Report, one of
the things is very that they really stood out to
me was the fact that okay, I'm mentioning a shortcase.
We've said that at the top. So when women make
the approach on Ashley Madison themselves, which you know that's
not the normal case. When you have a woman at

(10:52):
a very modern or independent and they don't want to
go and fall in traditional norms of Okay, get married,
have children, and that's okay, that's a norm right now today,
it's very obvious that we know that's going to how
things are going to be. There's more to it besides
just that thought process, but part of it is if
a one is going to approach, you're learning something that

(11:12):
sounds pretty clear to me men who are five foot
eight inches or taller, that women will engage more with
those men who are much taller, which goes to the
alpha male trope with oh, so women only are interested
for those that are five, that are tall, that have
a six figure income, have a you know, six pack ads.

(11:34):
All this kind of like the thought process of like
the one percent, one tenth to one percent of men
out there that will fit the role. So those guys
are going to benefit most from that. But the thing was,
it definitely says in viewing profiles, sending weeks or sending messages,
seventy to seventy three percent of those women are engaging
with men with that distinction they have to be five

(11:55):
foot eight or taller.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
So if you remember that the average height of the
American males five foot nine. So this data is actually
counter to what people assume because the majority of dat
ers that I talk to have this perception that women
will only date six foot and above. That's a prevailing
trend that we've seen elsewhere. And in fact, you know,

(12:18):
there's this new trend that I've recently come across called
the six sixty six trend. I don't know if that's
the Devil's line or not. So you have to be
six foot six figures and six inches, right, and our
data is pushing back down that notion because of the
vast majority part of women are communicating with men five
foot eight and above. That's below average height. So yeah, sure, kings.

(12:41):
So it's counter to what you're saying. Now, the reality
is that if you are five foot five or five
foot two, you're not going to be dating women more
than likely we're five eight five. That's just an unlikelyes
and that's not a new trend. That's just a reality
check on the world. And you know, the our data
suggests that our female daters are open to a wider

(13:06):
range of men than you might find on some traditional ideas,
because what we've been hearing elsewhere is that those below
the six footmark are struggly. And I think this was
precipitated in part because tendure and as they're putting a
high profile filter on their app, so you know, subjugating
men who below those new metrics to a lesser experience.

(13:29):
But our data is showing and we've had the ability
men have been able to end women. All our member
profiles have the capacity to list their height right directly
in their profile. That's part of the metrics that you
can sort of see because again it's a discretion discretionary
based data app, so you're not going to see as
many photos as you're used to another data apps, so
we have the ability to lift things like height and
weight and body type so that you can see what

(13:51):
is this a matter for me? And the fact that,
like I said, seventy percent are connecting with people who
are below average and above and that's a pretty good
trend for us, right.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
There's also one thing I've always about from the very
beginning with Ashley Madison was there's a psychological feeling to this,
because especially for men, I would think that we like
the fantasy of maybe if we can find someone that
is in a relationship, but you know, they kind of
have the feeling like, well, you know, I've always had
interested in somebody that who's married to this person, who
is dating this person, and the idea that they're taken.

(14:24):
The taken aspect of that I think is always work well.
And that's one thing that always stands out with Ashley Madison,
and I want to know if there's anything that you
can say in terms of if there is anything that's
very much a psychological feel that your data tells in
that part where that isn't will kind of like the
appeal to things.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
Well, it's interesting. One of the things I love about
my job is I get to interact with a lot
of academics and researchers around the world. Were really interested
in studying monogamy, relationships, and the nature of infidelity because
it's a subject matter that's very difficult to delve into
in a public stature, even on an anonymous survey. People
people a lot of themselves, but if you've already signed

(15:05):
up to Ashi Madison, you're sort of, you know, admitted
to certain behaviors. So we had a researcher come to
us asking if she could work with our data and
our membership to uncover the reasons behind female infidelity and
male infidelity. And it's quite the opposite of what people
think is So it's not so much that object of

(15:26):
desire that I can't have as a primary motivator. I'm
sure there's elements of that. I certainly heard that anecdotally,
but the primary reasons are as follows. Doctor Alicia Walker
from the University of Missouri did these days, and you
can find her studies. She published two books on on
her work, and it's important to just try to underscore that,
you know, this this research was done on our own accord.

(15:48):
We did not pay for it, nor facilitate, well facilitate,
but we didn't. We didn't manipulate or have any control
over the research other than giving her permission to talk
with our members of the people. Women in this research
on Ashley Madison said they were coming to Ashian Madison
because they were in sexless or orgasmless marriages. They were
coming to outsource their intimate needs because they maintained that

(16:11):
they loved their primary partner. They loved their life. They
didn't want to disrupt that, but nor were they willing
to continue on without having their physical needs met. So
traditional wisdom or our advice tells us that you either
compromise or divorce. Both are o's options are kind of horrible,
but Franklin, So we offer a third path, and these
women are using that. Interesting though, and this is the

(16:33):
one I think people struggle with the most, is that
the vast majority of met in this research were coming
to Ashian Madison because they were looking to fulfill emotional
validation that was missing from their primary relationship. We live
in a world, particularly in Western culture, where the alpha
male stereotype exists, where we're supposed to be so strong,
emotionless boys don't cry, and you know, you're the man

(16:54):
of the relationship, the man of that was you know,
everyone else needs come first. And this idea of meaning
validation is seen as a weakness, and so we subsume
that and push that down and bury that, and that
leads to bad outcomes, that to manifest in horrible ways.
And so a lot of these men are saying, you
know what, I do want to be told that I

(17:14):
look past. I do want to be told that I'm
valued of interest to the opposite sex. And that's the
reason they're coming down now. That often will manifest in
a physical relationship just as much as an emotional one.
But it's that validation of feeling needed, wanted, and desired
that drives men to Ancu Madison.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
Thereya disclosed NOMINII. There's the idea that where I would
imagine that one of the things that people that are
coming to the site as well is that they want
to find someone that will have no strings attached. There
is a part where but the thing that we know
that friends with benefits now call situationships in the current day,
it's changed as continues to evolve. But one area that

(17:55):
is it's important to me before say anything else before
it delve deeper into it is you know, for the
preferences that are out there that women that are modern
independent may maybe very very actively feministic, that they really
want to go and have their freedom of their independence
and they want to be able to just go ahead

(18:16):
and frogog whoever they want, but they also want to
be able to go and say, okay, look, but this
is how a relationship is. We're not in a commitment.
We'll have, you know, a relationship that we can you know,
interact with each with each other, but we are open
to other partners and it doesn't even matter who that
might be. It's just that that's it's just open like that.
And the fact in the data that forty eight percent

(18:38):
of those relationships are being mutually decided upon. So when
you look at this dynamic and I mean, do you
see that, it just continues to increase more that the
idea that partners don't want to just go and be
in monogamous relationships and don't and don't want to stay
committed or feel like they're being held into one, that

(19:00):
they can have freedom to kind of frolic around and
see what else is out there.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
Well, I think what's interesting is that there is certainly
a trend amongst gen Z pushing the boundaries of what
monogamy needs. And it's literally the way your phrases are
are or the way you're using language. It almost comes
across as you have a negative stereotyping to those who
are seeking a new definition of monogamy. They're not so

(19:25):
worried about being held to it, They're not so worried
about the constraints of it. They're saying there's a different
way to look at it. So they're not coming at
it from a point of shame or from a point
of negativity. They're just saying monogamy works for a lot
of people, but different styles of monogamy, or if you wish,
non monogamy equally works for a significant significant portion of people.

(19:48):
In fact, over the past six seven years, we've been
tracking some of our membership in terms of whether what
we they are what we call disclosed or undisclosed nominogamists
undisclosed being partners unaware of their activities are yeah, about
twenty percent of the membership across the States, but indicate
to us right now that they are in disclosed non

(20:08):
monogamous relationships and I think that numbers increasing because I
think people are seeing the limits of monogamy and seeing
as it pertains to their personal life, not as a
negative of monogamy, just there's ways to change it and
manipulate it to make it fit your world in a
very open, transparent way with your partner, and so we

(20:29):
use terms like polyamory and open relationships and lifestyle. I
think a lot of our members aren't necessarily pulling into
any one singular definition because I think they find that
in straining because I have to follow somebody else's definition.
What they're saying is what I do with my partners
up to me, and I think you know, Dan Savage,
you know, coined this term many many many moons ago,

(20:52):
monogam mish, and I think that's a better way to
sort of look at it. Yes, I have a primary
partner and they are a function and a more aspect
of my life. But both she and I, you know,
have the capacity, in the in the trust to be
open about each other's interest and desire. We live in
a world now. You know, I'm gen X, so have

(21:13):
my kids as I'm old. But you know, for my
parents' generation, pre marital sex was very much frowned upon
and looked down upon. I'm once one hundred percent certain
it was happening a whole lot, but it was Tuck
my generation. It was kind of the norm. Now it's
expected because I don't think a lot of people want

(21:33):
to train their husband or wife to be a good
sexful partner. They want them to come with some extants.
They may, you know, the three monkeys, plug their ears,
eyes and nose and not want to know how they
came to these experiences per se. So I think that's too,
is diminishing, but people are expecting it. So the idea
that we've gone from one person I have sex with
for my whole life and that's it. You know, nobody preaty,

(21:55):
no one posed to. Now we have people who are
pre well. Once I settle down, that's done. Now we're saying, okay,
if I can have stuck with people beforehand, what's the
difference if I have six people now? If I'm open and
transparent and you know, want to discuss with you. But
what's interesting for us is that, you know, when we
look at GENC, they're a little bit more out loud
and proud, you know, with their behaviors because they have

(22:16):
far less at risk. Our constituency, our members. It tends
to be a little bit older, our main members thirty
five forty plus. And so I know, you've built a
bit of a life, you got a career going, maybe
you're you're married, maybe you've got kids. You don't want
all these people knowing what's going on in your business.
You don't want them to know you're exploring the boundaries
of monogamy as it relates to your individual relationship. So

(22:37):
they're coming to Ashtian Madison because of the discretion we
offer and the community of people who are open and
honest and transparent about the nature while they're there. And
I think that trend, that discretionary based, you know, interest
in expanding the definitions of monogamy ones that are going
to grow exponentially. I don't think you're going to suddenly
see a massive rise of polyamorous couples out loud and

(23:00):
proud raising kiss. It's amazing that those are those people
who can and will do that. But I think that's
still always going to be, you know, borderline ten percent
of the populations. But increasingly there's a subset of people
that's gonna be a much bigger number and are interested,
but just don't want the world known because they don't
know how long they're going to do it or how
far they're going to take it.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
So to unpacking a couple of things for that answer, Yes,
I am quite cynical because of my history with dating
apps and just also with a feeling of the interactions
of being with women. I'm also gen x. But I'll
also say that twenty years ago it was a common
thing for guys to have that kind of thought process of, well,
you look for a stable of women to go ahead
and interact with, like there's not gonna be somebody that
you're gonna be with regular because the biggest one we

(23:41):
always had an issue with if one of the date
was if a one's going to get back to you.
And this is before iPhones, is before smartphones. You know,
are you gonna get a call back, You're gonna get
a beat back, you're gonna get a text back, whatever
it is. That was an issue going on. So like,
if you can't get that constant interaction, if you don't
have that kind of deal, because in those type of
relationships with benefits, it's when it benefits when it works

(24:01):
for the timing for both. The other thing is when
you about when it comes to discussionary I guess I mean,
of course, in the area of Ashley Madison, that's always
what's been important. But I also feel like there is
a dynamic change in those kind of disclosed, non monogonous relationships.
You tell me if I'm wrong, but what I'm seeing
the trend is right now. While women are definitely becoming

(24:24):
more independent in their femininity, I've always felt like that
there's guys now in their masculinity have lost a step
into where they are because they're not as dominant as
they once were. They are, you know, there's toxicity that
comes in because they never got a real role model of,
you know, seeing what a mother and father were like,
or just seeing, you know, how it is to be

(24:46):
properly dating somebody, or to court a woman, or just
to go ahead, know what you're going to do sexually
to please and satisfy a woman. There's that part too,
and I think that in those relationships the women get
more of the leverage on it because the polyamorous is
going more towards the woman being the sole person to
enjoy the company or a harem of guys as she

(25:07):
wants of her choice of her choosing. Am I wrong
about that?

Speaker 1 (25:11):
Well, I think there's elements there that have some you know,
factful truth to them, But I would, I would, you know,
probably push back in some of the phrasing. But I
understand it comes from a personal experience and respective and
we all have those, you know, filters in the way
we view the trends. I try to be a little
bit more objective and pull myself out of it. I'm
an active dator, so you know, I do understand what

(25:31):
you're saying. One I'll tell you data suggests And this
actually comes from just a brilliant writer, a woman named
Wednesday Mark that the the interest in nominogamy or the
growth of it is definitely female. That women become bored
of anogamy far quicker than men do, so the increase
in that space is not male driven. Know, a lot
of people want to believe that because they all think that, oh,

(25:53):
I have a die and you'll get a lot of women,
means I can sleep with a lot of women, and
then I have to comfort on my partner at home,
and then they do that and then discover that women
this is just a reality of life. Have you know,
a likely easier pathway to multiple partners versus a man
for a whole variety of reasons. But I think this
idea that you know, men are not living up to

(26:16):
or not getting good experiences because women, you know, are
selling and demanding's higher expectations is a really poor way
to look at it. You know, we're women for years,
you know, we're on the lower end of societal norms.
And what I mean by that is they were punished
for all the same behaviors that men conducted. Think about

(26:37):
it from you know, my business perspective, adultry. It wasn't
that long ago we literally, talking to this Scarlett letter,
we were branding women as adulterers on their clothes. Get
into that. That's a little bit long goos. But again,
I'm gen X and I'm in Canada. But I don't
think these these anecdotes will shift too much. In nineteen eighty,

(26:57):
a married woman needed her husband to sign off at
the to get it hurt credit card. And so you know,
we particularly since then quality but women clearly are at
the table. They can have strong careers and they have
financial independence, which is the big you know, previous limit

(27:18):
in terms of female behavior because if a woman was
caught cheating in the seventies, you know, she could lose
her kids, she can lose her financial well being, her
pathways to success far more limited than where they are now.
And what women are basically saying is, hey, I'm going
to put time and effort into a relationship. I've worked
hard for my career. I've earned a spot at the table.
You should equally, not necessarily, monetarily, not necessarily, you know,

(27:42):
from a societal status, from an effort perspective, and a
lot of men have been lazy over the years and
haven't put the effort in to dating women. And they
didn't have to. Women's you know, choices were far more limited.
Dating apps have democratized it a little bit more because
now I can expand my potential pool of mates to

(28:02):
a much wider audience. And women are suddenly saying, oh,
I have a bit more control over this situation to
my benefit. And men's behavior has you know, declined. You know,
let's be honest. You go ask any you know woman
who's gone on a data app for more than a day,
no put over any significant period of time, and then
ask her how many dicktics she's got unsolicited. That's a

(28:25):
horrible behavior. And so men are telling women that they're
not ready for relationships to that thing, because let's let's
be very very honest, that behavior is no different than
me going over to the local bar and flashing a
woman in real life. There's no difference between those two behaviors.
One is very unequivocally illegal. One is starting to become

(28:46):
seen as an illegal act, and it should be. Guys
don't send dick pics until she asked for them. It's
just horrible behavior. And all these men who are having
these horrible behaviors are causing women to increasingly up their expectations.
Because if you can't, if you can't not send me
a picture of your dick within the first you know,
six message on a dating app, you know clearly I

(29:07):
don't give a shit how much more money you make.
You know, what status you have, and how good looking
you are. Your behavior is important and you're at here,
so you know. I think that's what we're seeing more
than anything else, is that women are asking men to, Hey,
we still want you to be a judgleman, we still
want you to be chivalrous, but my you know, ability
to attract potential equal made has increased substantially because I

(29:29):
am independent, I'm from and so I'm asking you to
meet me where I'm at. I'm not asking for the world.
And I think men, you know, haven't adjusted accordingly to
this new dynamic. But it's not women acting badly, it's
men behaving quarterly.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
But I think part of this too is that guys
have given up too much ground. I'm all for equality,
but I think what's happened is that now the tables
have turned to the other round where women have gotten much
more autonomy. The fact that they had the dating sites
as a deterrent, they have so many more barriers that
guys have to breakthrough. The It's always going to be
the thing where guys that are going breakthrough barriers to
get closer to a woman, to go and get closer

(30:05):
and more intimate into a possible relationship. That's been always there.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
Now.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
Dating apps always just created more of a ground like that,
And I think there have been some guys now that
have gotten to the point where there's a fatigue to
dating apps. We know there is that, you know, they
just don't care anymore. They're being dismissive about it. And
they don't. And so when they're doing things like throwing
it's obviously stupid and immatureity going to think, oh, we'll
just throw a dick pic in there and see what

(30:30):
she thinks. We know that there's not gonna be any
girls that are ever going to respond that anymore, but
it happens so much, and you know, I think part
of it is just that if a woman is gonna
be on a dating app, is she not gonna be
open or she's not gonna be very you know, responsive
to a potential person that's approaching. If they're not willing

(30:50):
to go ahead and say okay, then just decline them.
So I'm sure, Paul, you're familiar that there are other
sites out there that will, let's just say, encourage sugar dating, okay,
transactional relationships. And I think that one of the things
that happens. And I'm not gonna say, you know, I'm
not gonna go and put any put any figures to
say that people on Ashley Madison are doing that. But

(31:10):
I think one of the things that's coming in is
that the mindset of some women that are now at
this point of dating, they want something more than just
the courtship. They want to ask them that's going to
be benefiting them, that they're going to get in return
for the time spent.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yeah, I think sugar dating is clearly a part of
the industry. I think it's a much smaller subset than
people want to put but I think they get a
lot of airtime and awareness because it's salacious and we
love stories that you know, calendar the norms. But you know,
you go look at you know, the publicly traded numbers,
right the big dating apps. You'll notice none of them

(31:48):
are the sugar dating apps. Okay, so let's put that aside,
but there are elements of that and they also honest,
every dating app that exists out there has people who
are married for tending to be single. They have people
out there being in sugar. You can't stop these people
showing up on your app. They do exist regardless of
the nature of your app. So that happens. But you
have to look at what is this appen tending to

(32:09):
be who are supposed to be there? And then you know, listen,
there are men and women who both like the dynamic
of that transactional space. Good for them, they can go
have at it. I would recommend highly go to the
places that offer that. Don't go there to it. You know,
don't go to Ashley Madison because you're not gonna have
a good experience. Don't go to Match or Hinge or Bumble,

(32:30):
You're gonna not have a good experience. I don't eve
think they will let you on this said once they
discover you. But you know, the idea that a woman
is asking for X, Y and z in a relationship
or or a dating dynamic, that's the function of dating apps.
Filter them out, have the conversations talk to people. And
I think this the lost part of conversation is really

(32:53):
something that has befallen the dating world because the ease
and rubictuitousness of having acts as to you know, thousand
women let's be honest, an intense to me available on
a Friday night on this app that I can chat with,
you know, has lessons men's capacity to engage and be
thoughtful in the conversation. And I can't tell you every

(33:16):
time when I speak to women, you know, if you
string together two or three sentences together that are coherent,
they're like, oh my god, you could speak you know,
You're amazing, And it's like, no, I'm not. But what
you're telling me is that men are not putting it
in the effort. And I get it. It goes back
to your point of a fatigue, and that absolutely has happened.
But let's be honest. The fatigue that is that people

(33:36):
are experienced isn't just specific to the dating industry. I
think there's a digital fatigue happening. I think there is
a desire for in person you know, in real life
experiences that dating apps like actually can help fulfill. But
you've you know, got to go in with better clarity
in terms of your intense and your purposes. And you know,
let's be honest, I would love to go on a

(33:56):
date with usailable and here she's, you know, potentially looking again,
I don't know, unrealistic, not happening. So, you know, nothing
wrong with stretching you know who you're reaching out to,
but let's be realistic. No twenty five year old woman
who's a model, whose gorgeous is going to date old Paul.
That's not happening. So let's be realistic about who we target.

(34:19):
Let's be realistic about our expectations, and let's communicate. Let's
talk to the people were thinking of being interested, give
them information and not hey, well's up. Those are horrible
forms of communication and not indicative, but I get it,
like when you've gone to the ten to fifteenth person,
you know, trying to come up with something witty and insightful.

(34:40):
Oh my god, it's hard. It really can be draining,
and so you know, I have a lot of empathy
and sympathy for that. I would argue, you know, there's
a great you know, a whole new hosting, new tools
of AI tools that you know you can take the
information you have from a person's profile, plug it in
and say, what's a great into response, take away that fatigue.
Use the are out there to help facilitate that conversation,

(35:02):
because I think that is the way to do it.
But just make sure you're doing it. Be honest enough time.
You don't try to, you know, portray yourself as something
that you're not. Because the reality is, if you set
an expectation that you're a great community or communicator and
then you show up in person and you know you're
unable to speak the same way you chatted, you're gonna
get red flag real correct, And that's going to be
a one day only scenario. You're gonna get ghosted.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
Now when I make the point about sugar dating and
some of those sites that are out there that will
attest to that, the one thing is there are some
of those sites. There are some of those users from
that might go ahead try to use that approach onto
a side like dating on like Ashley Mass and they
won't do well on it. But where I want to

(35:46):
come from as well, is that that dynamic. As you said,
it's usually like somebody older to an older man trying
to go and dat a younger woman. But I also
have noticed that there have been times where when it
comes to just any relationship in general, if a woman
feels like they have the privilege, they have a pretty
good privity privilege, or they just have a privilege as

(36:06):
a woman that now there's a delusional kind of feeling
in some cases because social media is amplified it that
women don't just need to go ahead just be taken
out to a nice dinner. They should be expecting more.
It's not just where you take somebody out. The dates
have to be a certain level, and there's an expectation
transactionally that comes into once you go ahead and meet

(36:27):
off the site. Now, the expectations of a woman to
meet with a guy is not just oh that they're
nice looking and then they have a lot of things
in common. There's gonna be something more and that's a
dynamic comes out off the site. Of course, that's not
what you're gonna have on the site, but when it
gets taken out the real life, I feel like that's
something that women might be expecting as much as they

(36:49):
can finding a good man out there, that they want
something more. Because it's been allowed, it's acceptable now.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
I don't think the idea of wanting, you know, a
nice first date is a bad idea. It really depends
on your definitions, and I would argue, you know, those
are the kind of things you want to discuss free
first date, whether that's on the app or you you
know you've transferred in real life. Work's stage a phone
call and you know hear that person's voice and say,
you know, i'd love to take care for dinner because
some of my favorite restaurants. What part of town are

(37:17):
you in? And validate, you know, because if you say,
I want to go to this local franchise chain restaurant
because it's your favorite, and that's great and she's like,
absolutely not. I'm only going to you know, the best
steak houses in the city. Nothing wrong with that either.
But she will tell you her expectations and you can

(37:37):
determine like, is that something that I'm you know, willing
to do? Is that something that interesting. If a person
tells you that that's their expectation, that's not a bad thing.
They're telling you who they are. And if that's not
a good match for you, regardless of how beautiful she
is and how she meets every one of your other parameters,
that's what a moment where you've got to step back
and say, hold on, okay, that's amazing that she wants

(37:59):
to go there, my jam. It's no different than saying
you match with you know, the perfect woman in every respect, geography, aesthetics, demeanor,
all those elements. And then she turns around and says, hey, listen,
I'm a vegan and I expect you to, you know,
eventually follow suit. And you're like, it's not happening. I mean,
I mean three burgers a day kind of a deal.
Let's get realistic. These are the reasons you have these conversations.

(38:22):
So yes, don't you know, you don't have to go
through your whole life experience pree first date, but check
in and have some conversations, schedule a phone call and
ask a little bit about you know, what's their dating expectations,
what do they like, how do they facilitate? You know.
I actually remember going on a date last year with
a woman and one of the first questions she asked

(38:43):
me was, you know, why didn't your last date work
out and what did you learn from it? I thought
that was a really interesting question to ask because you
could assume she was looking for the negative, which what
she was trying to determine, because I asked her, you know,
I feel about every single date I ever go on.
It's it's half personal half market research. She was trying

(39:03):
to see how I thought, what was my view of things?
So if I went immediately negative and chastised the woman
I was dating, that's telling my perspective that are bad
doesn't matter. So these are the types of things you
need to do on a pre first date conversation or chat.
Vet them accordingly based on all the things you've learned
from your previous dates. You didn't like it didn't work out,

(39:25):
or clearly flags for you, probe them, ask them in
a you know, response them in conversational way and see
how they come back to you. But don't you know,
don't make it twenty questions, don't make it an interrogation,
have a conversation.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
So we know that in many cases now we're seeing
a lot of the traditional barriers that are getting dropped down.
And this is the point where I make the point
of the show being called The Prey and the Rodgers
is because we are kind of just growing more into
the acceptance of things not to have to be so
strict or so you know, concrete. As it was again
in your report, you're talking about how infidel the no

(40:00):
longer being seen as an automatically the end of relationship
but instead of a sign that something is no longer aligned,
and there's an increase in forgiveness. But then also we
can look at the fact that we don't need to
go and play the dating game anymore. Is what the
other thing I keep getting from all this as well,
because when your team talking about authenticity of all else,

(40:20):
it's just stripping down exactly what you're looking for and
not beating around the bush. Because I think and that's
one of the things I feel like I'm getting from
the report is that, especially with gen Z that's coming
on to go and adopt onto Ashley Madison, is that
they want authenticity and romantic collections and it's like, okay,
then just what are you looking for? And we don't

(40:42):
have to go through the route of it's the encouragement
of that instead of trying to, you know, act like
something that you're not. Is that pretty much the right idea?

Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, I mean, I think, as I said at the
top of our conversation, our members tend to be a
bit more authentic and honest about their intentions and the
nature of you know, the relationships or situlationships or however
you wanted to find that they're looking for, because again,
they're not looking for their potential mate. They're not looking
for happily ever after they have that in a sense,
they're just looking to add to it and in doing so,

(41:15):
you know, I think they get better experiences. If you're
looking for perfection on a dating mapp, you're going to
be disappointed because it definite thing said on both sides
of the equation quite frankly, and if you think portraying
yourself in your best version but not like listen, there's
days where I look great. My hairs, you know, almost
looks like they're normal, and you know that's amazing. But

(41:38):
that's me five percent of the time. So if you're
showing your best five percent of yourself in your photos,
you know you're not being representative. Now, I'm notissaying take
your BedHead photo, put that on your profiles, but be
realistic about the individual. You know, if she's put on
these gorgeous photos and she's posed and it's elegant looking
and gorgeous, you know there's a day where she's in
her sweats and a T shirts and her hair looks

(42:01):
like a rat's nest and that's called life. And so
if you expect her to look like that all the time,
then what are you bringing to the table. Are you
always going to look your absolutely best? So these are
the things you have to you know, equate in terms
of what type of experience am I looking to have?
And so it's not just being honest with the person
on the other end of the conversations, being honest with
yourself about what do I want out of this, how

(42:23):
do I think you know I present, and how do
I match up to this individual's expectations? Read the profile,
go to the details she's given to you to see
if you're even a remotely match, not just physically, but
like if they say like I love my six am
morning heights, I'm like, good for you. We will never
see each other because I am sound and that's amazing,

(42:47):
Like nothing wrong with that, but it's never happening. So
doesn't matter if she's a perfect match in every other category,
but if that's her jam that she wants to get
up and do morning hikes on the weekend and you're like, no, no,
I have coffee before ever they exists, and I'll see
you at nine o'clock when you come back and make
your breakfast. That's what I mean. To be honest with yourself,
be honest with the person they're talking to, and I

(43:08):
honestly believe you'll get far better interactions. So I think
a lot of people try to not necessarily play a game,
but they're they're trying to present their best self across
every aspect of the conversation, and it can be exhausting
trying to be your best. That's why we're not at
that stage all the time. Exactly.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
One other question my point arout is that with Ashley Madison.
You took the Thority magazine earlier in January this year,
mentioning that Ashley Madison launched I don't know if it's
already launched yet, but a new verification initiative to have
people use their government I need to verify their real
and authentic So with that, members that have been verified
experienced a seven hundred percent increase in profile views, four

(43:47):
hundred percent increase in inbound messages. So tell me about
some of the changes has been done with Ashley Madison
to you know, emphasize safety and security.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
Yeah, so that is you know, a long running you
know project where we're cousting looking not just for our site,
but you know, across the whole dating industry is how
do you create trust and respect and authenticity so that
the members have the experience they're looking for. And so
we give our members now the option you can verify
through a different number of different ways selfie profiles, government,

(44:18):
I D. And you know, when I see someone who
is the check mark on Ashley Madison, I know that
they've given up their government ID to verify who they
are and their you know, authentic self And that gives
me a lot more confidence in that in that profile,
and that's why they're seeing the increased you know, views
and connections, and I think it's you know, going to

(44:39):
be part of a bigger trend on that front. You know,
we have a great trust and safety team and we're
constantly monitoring. So if you ever interact with somebody on
our site and you don't feel they're authentic, meaning they're
misrepresenting themselves or fraudulent, you know, with self reporting tools,
our team looks into every single report. And here's a
great thing. If we discover a profile is in fact
for and then we kick them off the platform for

(45:01):
breaking our terms of additions. If you've interacted with them,
even if you didn't report it to us, we're gonna
give you all the We're gonna give you a credit
back for initiating that conversation because that wasn't an authentic
experience and we're going to take care of you. So
we've got to back on those on those pieces so
you can have the confidence to you know, reach out
to anybody, and then if you just feel like, you know,
something's a little law, we're going to look into it

(45:22):
because we want to make sure everyone on our platform
is as authentic as possible, so that the experience in
the community is exactly as we you know, market it.
And so that's a big function of our.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
Site, Ashleymadison dot com. An opportunity for people that who
are looking for and that's as a discrete affair and
also they you know, something that aligns with your lifestyle.
So the thing is this is for my audience that
works really well because for those that have not been
successful in traditional dating or traditional relationships. Twenty percent of
your membership actually identifies as being open or polyamorus. So

(45:54):
there's open you know, you can explore whatever your lifestyle
could be, explore whatever can of dating choices you want
to have, and Ashley Madison does that for you. So
as we wrap things up, Paul, if you can make
the picture right now to listeners here when they have
all the glutton of other dating apps and the dating
sites out there, why is it that, you know, some

(46:15):
twenty years later, Ashley Madison is still the place to
go Ashley Madison dot com. Why would people still keep
having to go there because people are seeing success? How
would you say?

Speaker 1 (46:24):
Why that is? I think it's really like I said
earlier twofold one, you know, we're very clear about the
nature of our business. We're not ambiguous, and we're not
trying to be something for everybody, not everything to everybody.
We're very clear. Life is sure, and that might change
over the next twelve eighteen twenty four months as we
continue to sort of focus on the discretion that is

(46:44):
what is at the core of our business. Because of
those clarity of purpose and clarity intent, we've attracted a
basic people with not more than ninety people joined our
sites since we've launched, and in doing so, we've created
a community of people who really understand, you know, how
trust authentic intentions can build a far better online dating experience.

(47:06):
And so i'd encourage anybody it's free to sign up
and check out you know profiles in your in your
you know general area, and then you know you can
buy a whole host of kind of packages starting at
nine nine nine and get your toes and see how
far you want to explore.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
Really appreciate it, uh, Paul Cable, chief strategy Officer at
Ashley Madison, thanks for spending both of the hour here
with me to do me on the praying the bodgress.
I really appreciate you talking to me. I know, listen,
I got a cynical mind to it. I mean, there's
a lot of my mindset, but I'm appreciate you kind
of putting me into putting everything in perspective. I really
appreciate you taking time out my pleasure. And we'll leave

(47:43):
it like that. So thank you listeners for listening in,
and you know, check out the website for yourself and
find out because it is a place where you can
be absolutely the prey and the baddress

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