May 21, 2021 • 33 mins
The latest Diamond Conversations welcomes former big league catcher, Danny Sheaffer. Playing in Boston, Colorado and St. Louis throughout his playing career, Sheaffer became a large presence behind the plate. Now he has the Firm Foundation catching program that helps young catchers learn the game through drills and exclusive instruction. As a manager in the minor leagues for the St. Louis Cardinals, Sheaffer managed future Hall of Famer, Yadier Molina who has given the Firm Foundation his stamp approval. Sheaffer also shares insight into catching a young Roger Clemens, playing under Joe Torre and Tony La Russa as well as being part of the inaugural Colorado Rockies team in 1993.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:14):
All right, let's get back inhere on Diamond Conversation. It's a brand
new episode here on the Creative Controlpodcast network. If he didn't know by
now, my name is Ian.In every single week we take a journey
across the Diamond and we have aDiamond Conversation with somebody from the world to
baseball, major leagues, minor leagues, and everywhere in between. But today
we're going to talk about one morespecific topic. As I am joined by
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former major league catcher. He playedfor the Red Sox, he played for
the Cardinals, he played for theIndians. The coach himself, mister Danny
Shaffer, joining me. Mister Shaffer, how are you hey? Good pointing,
glad to be here. Well,it's great to talk to you.
We're gonna talk about the Firm Foundation. We're gonna talk about catching. To
me, catching is the art ofbaseball. I've been fascinated by catchers my
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whole life. I love to studyit. I love to even teach it
to the girls that I coach forsoftball. It's the anchor of the field.
But for you, it's now anabsolute must in terms of teaching.
Tell us about Firm Foundation and whatyou're doing with the with your your whole
entire organization. All right, Well, I picked a good time to leave
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professional baseball after forty years, andmy passion has been catching. Um.
I ended up playing every position inthe big leagues except shortstop thanks to Ozzie
Smith. You know, the catchingposition has always been a passion. I
think I learned it from some ofthe best, uh you know Dave Ricketts
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who's no longer with us, whowas instrumental in the Cardinals organization. But
um, you know, once Ileft playing, UM, I wrote the
catching program for the Saint Louis Cardinals. I was the catching coordinator there,
uh, as well as a managerfor about six years in the minor leagues,
and then I went to the HoustonAstros and wrote their catching program.
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Ended up in Tampa Bay for thelast seven or eight years and managing rookie
ball for them, but really steppedaway from from professional baseball to to get
into teaching full time. And ifyou'll notice that catching has trained changed drastically,
especially if you watch any of theguys now, whether it be college,
high school, or even professional baseball. And there seems to be a
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big argument, uh you know whichdirection we're heading in and you know,
those of us that have been aroundfor a long time, we realized that
this game is cyclical, and itchanges and it usually comes back. It's
renamed, it's rebranded, but itcomes back to its base. And I
think we're on the way there rightnow, and firm foundation catching is actually
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the program that I wrote for twomajor league organizations, and so I'm employmenting
that at the amateur basis right now. So what is changing with the position?
Because to the layman and just theviewer of baseball, we see the
guy's got the mit he catches theball, he gives the signs, he
throws the run around. You know, he helps prepare the pitchers, he's
in the bullpen. What's changing aboutthe position? Well, what you just
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described as a catcher has changed drasticallyabout the position. You know, he
no longer squats, he sits onone knee, he no longer blocks.
Professional baseball seems to be at oddswhether they appreciate the skill of blocking anymore,
the skill of throwing pass balls orat an all time high throwing percentages
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at an all time low, allto sacrifice those skills to gain possibly four
or five strikes a game, whichthose of us that actually have been back
there understand the umpires are not fooledthat much. And I think it's a
fallacy to think that we actually playedthe ball behind the plate at the big
league level. A lot of ithas to do with who's at the plate,
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who's on the mound will kind ofmove the umpires in that day,
and so I think we're fooling ourselves. And the game has to me has
gone in the tank, and uh, it's it's it's infiltrated back to the
minor leagues to where it's one wayor the highway, and you got to
do it this way or you're notgoing to be in the organization. And
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that's really really sad. Very seemsvery cookie cutter. Yeah, it is,
and there's no doubt about that.You know, when I see games
being lost in the bottom of theninth, bottom of the tenth, bottom
of the eleventh, or whatever becauseof a wild pitch that they call a
wild pitch, or a pass ballthat they call a wild pitch that normally
would be blocked U, it isfrustrating. And you know, I do
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know from from from some very goodfriends and and some people in the industry
that they're afraid to speak out becausethey're afraid that if they go against the
status quo um that they're not onlyout of a job as a player,
but also as a coach or amanager. And the industry is you know,
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if you watch a Major League baseballgame, there's just several things you
notice. Their strikeouts are at anall time high, the batting average is
an all time low, and everybody'sconforming to what the industry says that the
fans want. But I can tellyou that I can't stand a baseball game
with fifteen strikeouts, and I don'tthink anybody can either. We want to
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see guys get guys over, getguys in. We want to see a
catcher actually creating an environment to wherehe can have game management instead of being
a robot. And and so hopefullyit'll come back, and it'll come back
sooner than later. Yeah, Becauseagain it's just's you hate to say or
you hate to sound like, youknow, old school versus new school,
And I hate even having to bringit up like that. But there's a
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foundation of the game of baseball thateven still in twenty twenty one, we're
teaching ten year olds to do thisa certain way. But by the time
they evolve and get to higher levels, they're being basically told, the fundamentals
are over there. We're going toteach you the way we want to teach
you now. And it kind ofit could make or break somebody's interest in
going forward because you just have tonow reteach them the basics, right,
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you know, the irony of whatyou just said, Old school versus new
school. Here's the difference. AndI want to understand this. Those of
us that are quote unquote old schooldo appreciate the way the game has evolved.
They we really appreciate the data andthe analytics and the and the new
information that we're given, and wekind of gel those together and and work
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both like a marriage. But thosethat are new school have no regard for
those of us that have played thegame or what's been done in the past.
It's all adapt or die. Andand I think that's really really dangerous.
And and uh, you know,the catching position in the United States
UM is on life support. UM. I don't have any doubt about that.
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When I when I see high schoolcatchers and travel ball catchers and and
and they have a wrist band andthey they have looks like a computer on
their belt and ye look in thedugout for everything. They can't have an
original thoughts. There's no gut feelat all. It's basically do what I
say, and if you don't executeit right, then you failed. But
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if you do execute it right,whoever's calling the shots takes the credit.
And anybody who thinks that's not truehasn't been to an amateur game very often.
Yeah, and again from the outsider, you know, just a guy
who could talk about it and watchit. You see non baseball people in
roles that should be employed by olderbaseball statesmen that have that experience and can
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kind of give that analysis that Iwould think on paper would really be the
sensible thing to do. But itjust seems like the more you kind of
find out, it's no. It'speople who they might have, you know,
a college degree in engineering. Wellnow they're a spin rate master and
they didn't knock somebody else out ofa job. And I, as a
fan, that's frustrating because I wantmy players that I'm watching to learn from
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the people who have done it andhave been there. Well. As I
said earlier, I appreciate out there. I mean, it's it's nice to
know, you know that a ballhas one hundred and ten exit velocity,
But it takes it doesn't take somebodywho's very smart. You know that ball
is smoked. Okay, yeah,that's tell me spin rates, you know,
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twenty eight hundred or thirty two hundredRPMs. But it doesn't take a
genius to watch it with their owneyes and say that fastball exploded or that
ball had a lot of bite.And it's great to quantify it. That
word is uh is, you know, means different things to different folks.
But what we see with our eyesnow is put on paper and the data
is there, but it's it seemsas if and I can say this now
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that I'm out of the game becauseI don't have any fear in what people
think of me or or or whatthe organizations trying to think that that if
if you disregard the experience that hasbeen in the game, then you're losing
a entire generation to how to playthe game hard, how to play the
game right, and respect for thegame. And I think that is lost,
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yeah, in in what we're seeingtoday. Crying out loud, I
have people coming into my batting cagesthat I've created for Firm Foundation Baseball.
You know that don't know who OzzieSmith is, that don't know who Mickey
Mantle was, that don't have autographedKirby Pucket bats and Andre Dawson and they've
never heard of those guys. Andthese guys are teenagers, and that's pretty
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scary. That's all I grew upwas knowing the history, and it was
kind of shoveled down your throat.Now it's you know, it's kind of
it's kind of boxed in. Who'swhat history has talked about. But that's
exactly that's a great point, Um, And let's go back to the beginning
for you. You're drafted in nineteeneighty one by the Red Sox first round.
Red Sox have a really good middlepart of the eighties and have a
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great team that they put together,and you make your debut in nineteen eighty
seven. But talk about the RedSox organization during that stretch and coming in
and what you learned as a asa Red Sox, Well, it was
precious. And I count myself asa Boston Red Sock um as well as
a Saint Louis car Colorado, Rocky. When when I broke in baseball in
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nineteen eighty one, the first personI ever met in spring training drove up
on a golf cart, Compran.And when when I met Ed Williams and
he shook my head, it wasthe highlights. That's awesome. And and
so you know, I walked intospring training and Ted Williams took a liking
to me. And then I metCarl Jastremski and Johnny Pesky and Johnny miz
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and and you had Frank MoU Zoneand and and those guys. And um,
I had a successful run in theminor leagues with them. H made
a few All Star teams. Iwon a batting title in Triple A and
eighty six, and I didn't breakin until eighty seven. And uh spent
about parts of two years eighty sevenand eighty eight with the Red Sox at
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the major league level. And um, you know, my skill set was
much more acclimated to the National League, because they should. But I'll never
forget my time in Boston. Itwas wonderful and the people that I met
there, as far as the oldbaseball players, uh, we're really the
foundation, you know, walking inAnd when I say old baseball players,
I mean they're they're my age ora little older. Now when you look
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at Dwight Evans and Wade Boggs andand Jim Rice and Tony Armis a young
Roger Clement, uh, those kindof guys and and um, but if
I mentioned those guys to today's highschool players, they don't know who they
are. And um, you know, I see I see some excuses being
made, like, you know theydidn't know that generation. Well I didn't
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know the generation before me, butI sure know who Willie Mays was,
and I knew who Mickey Manner was, and I kne who Joe DiMaggio was,
and and and and Roger Morris andthose people. But you know,
I know it that I know timesyou're changing. I know, uh,
you know, technology is changing.But still no excuse not to know them.
That Red Sox team is interesting becauseit's kind of a bridge, the
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gap between a lot of the classicRedstock teams and then what would then be
the newer generation of guys, youknow, Ellis Burkes, Mike Greenwell,
who would go on to you know, kind of be known for their days
in Boston. But Roger Clements therocket. If you can, you know,
talk about what it was like andthat era catching a guy or even
if you did catch a guy likeRoger Clements, who was he was everything
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advertised. He was the flamethrowing rocket. It was nobody like him to watch
at that point now. And andyou know, I go back and and
think about how good he was,and you know, there was a lot
of things about writer that that peopledon't understand. And yes, he was
great talent and h he wanted theball every five days, and he wanted
the ball for nine innings. Hedid not want her And but his work
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ethic was off the chart there.I played with thousands of guys over the
years, and there was nobody thatworked harder than Roger Clements, or nobody
that was a better competitor. Nowthere were some that were as good,
like Yaudio Alina and guys like that, but look at his competitiveness on to
end off the field. Like ifI played golf with Roger Well I did
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a few years ago, he'd wantto beat me on the golf course as
bad as he wanted to beat youat the MAUP. Great teammate, great
competitor and needs to be in Cooperstownas soon as possible. Nineteen eighty seven
his second highest strikeout totals for theseason, two hundred and ninety one strikeouts
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and beating I think finishing two hundredninety two a few years later, but
two hundred ninety one strikeouts in nineteeneighty seven, we're talking about fifteen a
game. This was a guy fifteenby himself, without anybody else behind him.
Yeah, that's the year he startedto develop the split finger basketball.
And he he debuted that split fingerearly in the season in Arlington against the
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Rangers. And I remember catching himthat day and I have never been beat
up so much in my life.And but that split finger made that fastball
explode even more. And and itwas a pleasure of mind to be with
Roger. And uh, you knowit's as you look at the generations of
baseball. Several years later, wellmany years later, Roger and I sat
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down the ball park and I wasable to talk to him about changing a
position for his son from third baseto catcher. And when we when we
change Kobe and to enaball his sonto a catcher. He ended up making
a couple of All Star teams andnever made it to the big leagues.
But you know, the friendship withRoger has has lasted. That's awesome.
And again it's just it's because youyou're You're like almost the purveyor of this
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lost art and I just catching isit's fascinating to me. And when I
look at your career and I lookat where you've been, you know,
and Colorado being kind of the nextplace I want to touch on. You're
there for the first year, You'rethe expansion Rockies, who everybody's coming in
with a fresh slate, everybody's comingin looking for a spot. What was
kind of the the look at theexpansion team Rockies when you were brought over
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there. Well, a couple ofthings. When I had signed for the
expansion Draft, I had signed beforethey named a manager, and my agent
at the time really just geared metoward that organization because opportunity was a whole
lot better than money at the time. And so when I signed to play
for the Rockies, I waited forthe expansion draft and I waited for the
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manager and Don Baylor was named manager, which took back history. When I
went back into my Red Sox days. I played with Don Baylor in Boston
as a teammate, so he wasfamiliar with me. And when I got
to spring training, there were fourother catchers on the major league roster and
I was a non roster player,And if you know anything about about how
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your numbers dictate where you're going inspring training, I wore number sixty the
first four weeks of spring training.Me ever, breaking with the big league
club, and the Chips started tothe fall and a few guys got hurt.
Um Eric Wedge came into spring trainingnot healthy because of a shoulder surgery.
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Brad Ousmus with the young player atthe time that they drafted from the
from the Yankees, and the onlyother guy that was there was Joe Girardi.
Right there was another Latin catcher,I can't remember bhil Bertoe's something,
but anyway, he so it wasJoe Girardi and I and then and then
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so Brad wasn't ready for the bigleagues and Eric Wedge wasn't healthy, and
I broke with the big league club, which was really the turning point in
my year, which ended up anothersix years in the big leagues before I
retired at thirty seven. But boy, playing playing at Mile High Stadium in
front of seventy thousand people every nightwas incredible. We weren't a very good
club, but we had some verygood talent. When you look at Charlie
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Hayes, uh you you you lookat Dante Pachette, Um, Darryl Boston
was there, Dale Murphy was there. Um, you know, Walt Weiss
was there for a while, andEric Young was there for a while,
and well he was there for along time. But it was The scaching
staff was Don Baylor and Don zimmerAss and amos Otis, and it was
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a It was a good group,the ultimate collection of veterans. And for
an expansion team, you know,you need some of the names to draw
the fan base in. But thefan base came out in droves and it
seemingly didn't leave for five years forRockies Baseball. So what was that like
playing in in Mile High Stadium amongstthe the fandom that was going out at
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the time, because these this wasan area dying for some sports team,
and now here we go. Theygot the Colorado Rockies in ninety three.
Well, you put the bullseye onDenver and you can have a professional franchise
at the Major league level for hundredsand hundreds of miles in every direction,
and so we really had the RockyMountain region and we were treated great.
Ownership was wonderful with Jerry mc morrisand uh Charlie Montford and the crew,
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and it was it was two years, well, it was a year and
a half because of ninety four.We went on strike in ninety four,
which was unfortunate, but um,it was two years of pandemonium before they
moved over to coors Field. Ofcourse, I was in Saint Louis at
that time in ninety five when wewent to coors Field, so I got
to come back as a visitor manytimes. You know, the Rockies,
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there's a lot of people that actuallycame into my know the Rockies were an
expansion team. They thought they'd beenaround forever. But when we when we
when we took the field, wewere the fan favorites. And unfortunately we
couldn't put a championship team on thefield, but we had we had a
bunch of fun. I remember theyou know, the first series against the
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Mets very well. Mets fan growingup, so I remember it very well.
You know, it always seemed afterwards, it seemed like the Rockies always
had their number. But I knowthe first couple of games, the Mets
kind of took care of business,and it was a little bit. But
I was looking at the box scoresand looking at one of the games.
You were in the starting rotate,starting lineup, and I believe it was
the first time you guys beat theMets. So congratulations, quite good on
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the mountain. Yes, that istrue. There you go. Yeah,
so how do you so? Now, Doc, let me just ask you
this. As a catcher, SoDoc, by that point in ninety three,
he lost a little bit of doctork. He wasn't throwing as much
heat as he was. He hadthe curveball, he had a couple other
pitches. But do you still approachhim as a hitter that he's Doc Gooden
on the mountains? Now, Iwas fortunate enough to see Doc at his
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best. And you go back inthe minor league journey back in nineteen eighty
three. He was in Lynchburg,Virginia, and I was in Winston Salem,
North Carolina. You can go backand look at the numbers, but
if I'm not mistaken, I thinkhe struck out three hundred people, and
he was really, really good.He was probably the best right hander that
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I've ever faced other than Roger Clements. Unbelievable. He still did strike out
one hundred and fifty and ninety three, so he's still throwing heat at some
point. I don't want to discreditDoc at all. I love Doc,
but you think about Doc, thinkabout what I just said. In a
minor league season, when's the lasttime a pitcher struck out three hundred people?
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I don't think it's ever been done. No, and he had to
be That's why he had to bebrought right up, because he just he
was blowing everybody away, and theysaid, we got to get this guy
on the field. And within ayear he's so young, he he's the
rookie of the year. He wasas advertised, which how many of those
can you say? Everybody is asadvertised he was for that moment in time
exactly. So all right, justmoving out across the career. Before we
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start to head into the wrap,ups want to talk about Cardinal Baseball.
So again, Red Sox and Cardinals, those are two organizations that are known
for taking care of their players,and it seems like you have a really
great memory and a foster relationship withboth to talk about joining the Cardinals organization
and how that ended up kind ofsetting you up down the road well ninety
four. When we went on rightin ninety four, it kind of destroyed
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baseball for a while, and thosethat were that were not really solidified in
the big leagues yet. I hadhad, you know, three or four
years in the big leagues, butneeded more obviously. But when when When
I'd signed with the Cardinals as afree agent in ninety four, assistant general
manager was Walt Jockety with the withthe Rockies, and Um, I was
fortunate enough to play some multiple positiongames and had some success in Colorado,
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and when he became manager in ourgeneral manager in Saint Louis, he called
me and said, who are youtalking with? And I told him a
few clubs, and he said,why don't you just sign with us,
It'll be a good fit. Um. Joe Torrey was our manager of the
first year I made I made theclub out of spring training obviously in nineteen
ninety five and spent ninety five,ninety six, ninety seven, and ninety
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eight before you know, kind ofan off the field injury ended my career.
But um, the uh, thethe journey in Saint Louis was really
really good because you know, Jocketywas was a perfect essional. He understood
human being part of the game.He was a he was a genius in
the arts. He let the peopleon the field do what they did best.
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Joe Tory was our manager the firstyear. Unfortunately because of personalities and
and maybe some I don't know whatthe deal was, but they fired Joe
Tory at the All Star break andgot an interim manager in ninety five,
and which was the pathway for TonyLaRussa to come over to Saint Louis and
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the winner of ninety five, whicheverybody knows that what happened next with Tony
and so playing for Tony for abouttwo or three years, was the most
prepared man I've ever seen in mylife, total opposite of Joe Tory.
Joe Tory was prepared, but JoeTory was really really relaxed. Tony l
Russo was the most intense man I'veever seen in my life on the field,
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and the only thing that mattered atthe end of the day was the
score of the game. And weunderstood that and Um, but we had
a veteran club. You know,we had Ozzie Smith. Um, we
had many many others. We hadjust had a really really good club.
In ninety six when he came overthere, we were one game from the
World Series. We were up threegames to one in Atlanta, and you
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know, thought we had a tripto New York to play the Yankees.
And three guys stood in the way, one named Smoltz, one mad Black.
All three of those guys put usaway and sent us home. And
how apropos would it have been thatyou could have played Joe Tories New York
Yankees in nineteen ninety six, thatyou know what. I've thought of that
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years ago, thought of it lately. But it would have been really good.
And um, you know, Idon't know if there's been two managers
with the history that would have thatwould be equal to be playing Joe Tory
against Tone of the russ in theWorld Series. Um, and quite frankly,
I don't know which one would wantto win and the most. Yeah,
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but um, both have gone onto earn their place in Cooperstown.
Glad to see Tony back. Um, I think uh, I think Tony's
throwing a wrench in the soup.The way the analytical world is right now,
Tony's doing things his way in theWhite Sox. That response, I
would love to see, Yeah,I'd love to see what that. What
that's like behind the scenes, issomebody it's great coming up with a big
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stack of charts and see what Tonydoes about that. Hey, the charts
are great. It's a great informationto have. I mean, the more
information we have, the best.But ultimately this is played by human beings.
Person that handles the players the mostand or the best, and the
people that have the better relationships andand can manage from your gut, um,
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those are the ones that that aregonna win. And we saw that
last year in the World Series withyou know, um, I think the
entire planet looked at looked at BlakeSnell coming out of that game in game
six and saying, I don't quiteunderstand this, and you know, everybody
can armchair quarterback, but in theend, you know, I think there's
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a lot of second guessing going on. No. One hundred percent. Now,
just quickly with ninety five and ninetysix, Mike Jorgensen was the replacement
for Joe Tory and I don't think. I think that might have been the
only time Mike Jorgansen coached at thebig league level or manage at the big
league level. Uh, kind offorgotten if you don't look at it.
But ninety five in the ninety sixtor to LaRussa. Ninety six is also
the last year of Ozzie Smith andkind of seemed like the core of that
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Cardinals nineties teams. You know,they kind of went in another direction when
Ozzie retired. Was there a changeto the team and then the culture.
Yeah, big time, There's nodoubt about that. You know. Look,
there's a couple of big personalities therein Saint Louis, and well deserved.
I mean, Ozzie is he's thewizard, He's he's he's everybody thinks
about the Cardinals. When when youthink about Ozzie, they think about the
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Cardinals, and vice versa. Tonyhim in town and uh, you know,
we we saw, you know,a little personality clash and all of
that kind of stuff. It wasgood though, because you know Tony,
you know, Tony ran the clubthe way he wanted to. Um,
I think those of us that werein the clubhouse at that time really understood,
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you know how important it was forOzzie to go out on on on
a good note. And UH,I think one of the toughest positions ever
to be in baseball was Royce Claytonhaving to take over. There's no doubt
about that. But we came togetheras a club, UM really well.
I think Ozzie was a big partof that. We had a meeting from
we went from San Francisco to toLos Angeles, and UM, we weren't
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playing very well. We ended upmeeting UH in Tom Pagnazzi's room and UM,
Ozzie was very vocal at the time, and we got together as a
team and decided that we were goingto play um uh our best baseball and
not let any distractions m come inour and we we came up with a
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little theme between the lines and UHand we played very well. UM.
I think after that meeting in LosAngeles, I think there was a much
better relationship with the team as ateam and a team with the coaches and
and UM, you know that's that'spart of the human element. Sometimes sometimes
you have to sit down and talkthings out and we did UM and Ozzie
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was instrumental in that and what agreat player to play with, and what
a great teammate. Unbelievable. Nonobody could make those moves that Ozzie did
up the middle, just absolutely orin the hole, out of this world.
Just the one last thing about thecatching in Saint Louis before we wrap
up in ninety six, loaded withtalent catching yourself, Mike de Felice coming
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up. At the time, PatBorders was there, pag Nazzi was still
at the top. What's it likehaving that many great minds and great position
players there to kind of work together, And obviously you're competing somewhat against each
other, So what's it like kindof having a group like that together on
one team. Yeah, it reallywas. We did compete with each other
very well, but we understood andrespected each other. And one thing that
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we all had in common is thefact that the captain behind the ship was
a man no longer with us,and his name is Dave Ricketts. I
think if you had Yadi or Molinasitting beside me right now, the next
generation of catching. Even though Iwas I'm not going to say instrumental,
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but I had I had a partin the development of Yadi because I had
him for about five years and fromme when he was seventeen until I sent
him to the big leagues as atriple A manager with the Cardinals. We
all had that tie to Dave Ricketts. And Dave Ricketts was a genius behind
the plate. And if you speakwith anybody, if you had an opportunity
(28:55):
to talk to and some people areno longer with us, but if you
have an opportunity to talk to MikeLavallier, or you talked to Darryl Porter,
he's here. And you talked toMike pag Nazi or Tom pag Nazi
or Tony Pena, Mike Methini,myself, Yadi or Molina, and the
list goes on and on. Everybodypoints back to Dave Ricketts and he was
(29:18):
the master. Unbelievable. And tothink you know where Yadi is at this
point in his career, and that'swhen I talk about studying the catchers and
watching guys, he is at thetop because he's still out there. He's
still putting in a good game,he's still behind the play. I mean,
I think it was in spring training. He's still scuffling. He is
still out there all the time,and he just came back, I think
from the injured list. But whata career he's had. Briefly before we
(29:41):
say goodbye. What was he likeas a as a youngster before you sent
them up to the to the bigleagues? Oh my, he was.
I remember talking to Red Shane Dean'sone day, and I remember talking to
Mike Shannon in Saint Louis, andthey asked me, after I managed a
two thousand and two team in Peoria, Illinois, who was the best player
on that team? Actually, Ihad eight Big league on that team,
including Dan Herron and Chris Duncan andYadA your Malina. And I told him,
(30:04):
YadA your Malina was going to bea Hall of Famer. Now that's
a big limb to go out on. But when you see how mature this
kid was behind the plate. Hestruggled through the minor leagues, he struggled
hitting a little bit through the minorleagues, but his hands were gold.
And uh, you know, tothis day, when I see Yadi,
he gives me a big hug andand uh, he understands and appreciates the
(30:25):
history of the game. He understandsthose of us that were instrumental in development.
And you know when I when Iformed my company and actually my website
Firm Foundation Firm Foundation Catching dot com. Uh, there's a photograph on there
that I'll cherish that get an endorsementfrom YadA your Malina, and uh it's
(30:45):
he's He's awesome. And if ifI'm available and I'm still living, when
he gets inducted unanimously into Cooperstown firstballot Hall of Famer, in my mind,
I will be there. It's gonnabe great to see because he's gonna
absolutely earn it, deserve it,and he will be a first ballot because
there's been nobody in the last twentyfive years to come down to do what
he's done behind the plates. Soall right, well let's lead them over
(31:07):
to Firm Foundation Catching. You gavethe website name, but please anywhere else
that anyone can find you to learnmore about Firm Foundation Catching and about Danny
Schaeffer. Please if floor is yours, Okay, yeah, thank you very
much. You know, if youvisit Firm Foundationcatching dot Com or even my
YouTube. But I did create adigital DVD and also a physical DVD of
(31:32):
the catching program that I wrote forthe Cardinals and the Astros. It's it's
a wealth of information. It tookabout eleven hours to film it, and
we do about an hour and ahalf of instructional video. I think it's
pretty good, I hope, soyou guys go to it. You can
also find me at pro strike zonedot com. I patented a batting practice
(31:55):
target that's now in nine Major leaguestadiums, and so if you've watched MLB
Network and you see an actual catcheron the backstop, that's my guy.
And I patented that product because Igot tired of people not being handle to
throw batting practice catcher back there.So I took my son, who's a
professional catcher himself right now, andused him as the template. And we
(32:22):
we grace about a hundred colleges rightnow, many facilities, and in nine
major league teams. And actually ourour target was in the World Series when
the Dodgers were in the World Series. So it's pretty cool. That's awesome.
Yeah. Again, it's firm FoundationCatching dot com. It's at Schaefer
Danny on Twitter. It's where youwant to find out some more stuff,
some little tweets and stuff you've gotgoing on, some stories, love that
(32:45):
I love when you guys tweet stuffabout the Old School while listen to it.
I'll read it all day long.But that's on Twitter, and if
you want to follow me on Twitterand Instagram, it's at Chad E and
B. The website is IB exclusivesdot com. Get all the information I've
got there about upcoming events on ibexclusivesdot com. And again this was a
(33:05):
great conversation with Firm Foundation catching andDanny Schaefer. So for Danny Schaefer,
my name is Ian and we willcatch you on the flip side.
All right, let's get back inhere on Diamond Conversation. It's a brand
new episode here on the Creative Controlpodcast network. If he didn't know by
now, my name is Ian.In every single week we take a journey
across the Diamond and we have aDiamond Conversation with somebody from the world to
baseball, major leagues, minor leagues, and everywhere in between. But today
we're going to talk about one morespecific topic. As I am joined by
(00:38):
former major league catcher. He playedfor the Red Sox, he played for
the Cardinals, he played for theIndians. The coach himself, mister Danny
Shaffer, joining me. Mister Shaffer, how are you hey? Good pointing,
glad to be here. Well,it's great to talk to you.
We're gonna talk about the Firm Foundation. We're gonna talk about catching. To
me, catching is the art ofbaseball. I've been fascinated by catchers my
(01:00):
whole life. I love to studyit. I love to even teach it
to the girls that I coach forsoftball. It's the anchor of the field.
But for you, it's now anabsolute must in terms of teaching.
Tell us about Firm Foundation and whatyou're doing with the with your your whole
entire organization. All right, Well, I picked a good time to leave
(01:21):
professional baseball after forty years, andmy passion has been catching. Um.
I ended up playing every position inthe big leagues except shortstop thanks to Ozzie
Smith. You know, the catchingposition has always been a passion. I
think I learned it from some ofthe best, uh you know Dave Ricketts
(01:41):
who's no longer with us, whowas instrumental in the Cardinals organization. But
um, you know, once Ileft playing, UM, I wrote the
catching program for the Saint Louis Cardinals. I was the catching coordinator there,
uh, as well as a managerfor about six years in the minor leagues,
and then I went to the HoustonAstros and wrote their catching program.
(02:04):
Ended up in Tampa Bay for thelast seven or eight years and managing rookie
ball for them, but really steppedaway from from professional baseball to to get
into teaching full time. And ifyou'll notice that catching has trained changed drastically,
especially if you watch any of theguys now, whether it be college,
high school, or even professional baseball. And there seems to be a
(02:25):
big argument, uh you know whichdirection we're heading in and you know,
those of us that have been aroundfor a long time, we realized that
this game is cyclical, and itchanges and it usually comes back. It's
renamed, it's rebranded, but itcomes back to its base. And I
think we're on the way there rightnow, and firm foundation catching is actually
(02:46):
the program that I wrote for twomajor league organizations, and so I'm employmenting
that at the amateur basis right now. So what is changing with the position?
Because to the layman and just theviewer of baseball, we see the
guy's got the mit he catches theball, he gives the signs, he
throws the run around. You know, he helps prepare the pitchers, he's
in the bullpen. What's changing aboutthe position? Well, what you just
(03:08):
described as a catcher has changed drasticallyabout the position. You know, he
no longer squats, he sits onone knee, he no longer blocks.
Professional baseball seems to be at oddswhether they appreciate the skill of blocking anymore,
the skill of throwing pass balls orat an all time high throwing percentages
(03:28):
at an all time low, allto sacrifice those skills to gain possibly four
or five strikes a game, whichthose of us that actually have been back
there understand the umpires are not fooledthat much. And I think it's a
fallacy to think that we actually playedthe ball behind the plate at the big
league level. A lot of ithas to do with who's at the plate,
(03:51):
who's on the mound will kind ofmove the umpires in that day,
and so I think we're fooling ourselves. And the game has to me has
gone in the tank, and uh, it's it's it's infiltrated back to the
minor leagues to where it's one wayor the highway, and you got to
do it this way or you're notgoing to be in the organization. And
(04:12):
that's really really sad. Very seemsvery cookie cutter. Yeah, it is,
and there's no doubt about that.You know, when I see games
being lost in the bottom of theninth, bottom of the tenth, bottom
of the eleventh, or whatever becauseof a wild pitch that they call a
wild pitch, or a pass ballthat they call a wild pitch that normally
would be blocked U, it isfrustrating. And you know, I do
(04:33):
know from from from some very goodfriends and and some people in the industry
that they're afraid to speak out becausethey're afraid that if they go against the
status quo um that they're not onlyout of a job as a player,
but also as a coach or amanager. And the industry is you know,
(04:54):
if you watch a Major League baseballgame, there's just several things you
notice. Their strikeouts are at anall time high, the batting average is
an all time low, and everybody'sconforming to what the industry says that the
fans want. But I can tellyou that I can't stand a baseball game
with fifteen strikeouts, and I don'tthink anybody can either. We want to
(05:15):
see guys get guys over, getguys in. We want to see a
catcher actually creating an environment to wherehe can have game management instead of being
a robot. And and so hopefullyit'll come back, and it'll come back
sooner than later. Yeah, Becauseagain it's just's you hate to say or
you hate to sound like, youknow, old school versus new school,
And I hate even having to bringit up like that. But there's a
(05:38):
foundation of the game of baseball thateven still in twenty twenty one, we're
teaching ten year olds to do thisa certain way. But by the time
they evolve and get to higher levels, they're being basically told, the fundamentals
are over there. We're going toteach you the way we want to teach
you now. And it kind ofit could make or break somebody's interest in
going forward because you just have tonow reteach them the basics, right,
(06:01):
you know, the irony of whatyou just said, Old school versus new
school. Here's the difference. AndI want to understand this. Those of
us that are quote unquote old schooldo appreciate the way the game has evolved.
They we really appreciate the data andthe analytics and the and the new
information that we're given, and wekind of gel those together and and work
(06:23):
both like a marriage. But thosethat are new school have no regard for
those of us that have played thegame or what's been done in the past.
It's all adapt or die. Andand I think that's really really dangerous.
And and uh, you know,the catching position in the United States
UM is on life support. UM. I don't have any doubt about that.
(06:46):
When I when I see high schoolcatchers and travel ball catchers and and
and they have a wrist band andthey they have looks like a computer on
their belt and ye look in thedugout for everything. They can't have an
original thoughts. There's no gut feelat all. It's basically do what I
say, and if you don't executeit right, then you failed. But
(07:11):
if you do execute it right,whoever's calling the shots takes the credit.
And anybody who thinks that's not truehasn't been to an amateur game very often.
Yeah, and again from the outsider, you know, just a guy
who could talk about it and watchit. You see non baseball people in
roles that should be employed by olderbaseball statesmen that have that experience and can
(07:32):
kind of give that analysis that Iwould think on paper would really be the
sensible thing to do. But itjust seems like the more you kind of
find out, it's no. It'speople who they might have, you know,
a college degree in engineering. Wellnow they're a spin rate master and
they didn't knock somebody else out ofa job. And I, as a
fan, that's frustrating because I wantmy players that I'm watching to learn from
(07:54):
the people who have done it andhave been there. Well. As I
said earlier, I appreciate out there. I mean, it's it's nice to
know, you know that a ballhas one hundred and ten exit velocity,
But it takes it doesn't take somebodywho's very smart. You know that ball
is smoked. Okay, yeah,that's tell me spin rates, you know,
(08:16):
twenty eight hundred or thirty two hundredRPMs. But it doesn't take a
genius to watch it with their owneyes and say that fastball exploded or that
ball had a lot of bite.And it's great to quantify it. That
word is uh is, you know, means different things to different folks.
But what we see with our eyesnow is put on paper and the data
is there, but it's it seemsas if and I can say this now
(08:41):
that I'm out of the game becauseI don't have any fear in what people
think of me or or or whatthe organizations trying to think that that if
if you disregard the experience that hasbeen in the game, then you're losing
a entire generation to how to playthe game hard, how to play the
game right, and respect for thegame. And I think that is lost,
(09:05):
yeah, in in what we're seeingtoday. Crying out loud, I
have people coming into my batting cagesthat I've created for Firm Foundation Baseball.
You know that don't know who OzzieSmith is, that don't know who Mickey
Mantle was, that don't have autographedKirby Pucket bats and Andre Dawson and they've
never heard of those guys. Andthese guys are teenagers, and that's pretty
(09:26):
scary. That's all I grew upwas knowing the history, and it was
kind of shoveled down your throat.Now it's you know, it's kind of
it's kind of boxed in. Who'swhat history has talked about. But that's
exactly that's a great point, Um, And let's go back to the beginning
for you. You're drafted in nineteeneighty one by the Red Sox first round.
Red Sox have a really good middlepart of the eighties and have a
(09:48):
great team that they put together,and you make your debut in nineteen eighty
seven. But talk about the RedSox organization during that stretch and coming in
and what you learned as a asa Red Sox, Well, it was
precious. And I count myself asa Boston Red Sock um as well as
a Saint Louis car Colorado, Rocky. When when I broke in baseball in
(10:09):
nineteen eighty one, the first personI ever met in spring training drove up
on a golf cart, Compran.And when when I met Ed Williams and
he shook my head, it wasthe highlights. That's awesome. And and
so you know, I walked intospring training and Ted Williams took a liking
to me. And then I metCarl Jastremski and Johnny Pesky and Johnny miz
(10:31):
and and you had Frank MoU Zoneand and and those guys. And um,
I had a successful run in theminor leagues with them. H made
a few All Star teams. Iwon a batting title in Triple A and
eighty six, and I didn't breakin until eighty seven. And uh spent
about parts of two years eighty sevenand eighty eight with the Red Sox at
(10:52):
the major league level. And um, you know, my skill set was
much more acclimated to the National League, because they should. But I'll never
forget my time in Boston. Itwas wonderful and the people that I met
there, as far as the oldbaseball players, uh, we're really the
foundation, you know, walking inAnd when I say old baseball players,
I mean they're they're my age ora little older. Now when you look
(11:15):
at Dwight Evans and Wade Boggs andand Jim Rice and Tony Armis a young
Roger Clement, uh, those kindof guys and and um, but if
I mentioned those guys to today's highschool players, they don't know who they
are. And um, you know, I see I see some excuses being
made, like, you know theydidn't know that generation. Well I didn't
(11:37):
know the generation before me, butI sure know who Willie Mays was,
and I knew who Mickey Manner was, and I kne who Joe DiMaggio was,
and and and and Roger Morris andthose people. But you know,
I know it that I know timesyou're changing. I know, uh,
you know, technology is changing.But still no excuse not to know them.
That Red Sox team is interesting becauseit's kind of a bridge, the
(12:00):
gap between a lot of the classicRedstock teams and then what would then be
the newer generation of guys, youknow, Ellis Burkes, Mike Greenwell,
who would go on to you know, kind of be known for their days
in Boston. But Roger Clements therocket. If you can, you know,
talk about what it was like andthat era catching a guy or even
if you did catch a guy likeRoger Clements, who was he was everything
(12:22):
advertised. He was the flamethrowing rocket. It was nobody like him to watch
at that point now. And andyou know, I go back and and
think about how good he was,and you know, there was a lot
of things about writer that that peopledon't understand. And yes, he was
great talent and h he wanted theball every five days, and he wanted
the ball for nine innings. Hedid not want her And but his work
(12:46):
ethic was off the chart there.I played with thousands of guys over the
years, and there was nobody thatworked harder than Roger Clements, or nobody
that was a better competitor. Nowthere were some that were as good,
like Yaudio Alina and guys like that, but look at his competitiveness on to
end off the field. Like ifI played golf with Roger Well I did
(13:09):
a few years ago, he'd wantto beat me on the golf course as
bad as he wanted to beat youat the MAUP. Great teammate, great
competitor and needs to be in Cooperstownas soon as possible. Nineteen eighty seven
his second highest strikeout totals for theseason, two hundred and ninety one strikeouts
(13:30):
and beating I think finishing two hundredninety two a few years later, but
two hundred ninety one strikeouts in nineteeneighty seven, we're talking about fifteen a
game. This was a guy fifteenby himself, without anybody else behind him.
Yeah, that's the year he startedto develop the split finger basketball.
And he he debuted that split fingerearly in the season in Arlington against the
(13:52):
Rangers. And I remember catching himthat day and I have never been beat
up so much in my life.And but that split finger made that fastball
explode even more. And and itwas a pleasure of mind to be with
Roger. And uh, you knowit's as you look at the generations of
baseball. Several years later, wellmany years later, Roger and I sat
(14:15):
down the ball park and I wasable to talk to him about changing a
position for his son from third baseto catcher. And when we when we
change Kobe and to enaball his sonto a catcher. He ended up making
a couple of All Star teams andnever made it to the big leagues.
But you know, the friendship withRoger has has lasted. That's awesome.
And again it's just it's because youyou're You're like almost the purveyor of this
(14:39):
lost art and I just catching isit's fascinating to me. And when I
look at your career and I lookat where you've been, you know,
and Colorado being kind of the nextplace I want to touch on. You're
there for the first year, You'rethe expansion Rockies, who everybody's coming in
with a fresh slate, everybody's comingin looking for a spot. What was
kind of the the look at theexpansion team Rockies when you were brought over
(15:03):
there. Well, a couple ofthings. When I had signed for the
expansion Draft, I had signed beforethey named a manager, and my agent
at the time really just geared metoward that organization because opportunity was a whole
lot better than money at the time. And so when I signed to play
for the Rockies, I waited forthe expansion draft and I waited for the
(15:26):
manager and Don Baylor was named manager, which took back history. When I
went back into my Red Sox days. I played with Don Baylor in Boston
as a teammate, so he wasfamiliar with me. And when I got
to spring training, there were fourother catchers on the major league roster and
I was a non roster player,And if you know anything about about how
(15:48):
your numbers dictate where you're going inspring training, I wore number sixty the
first four weeks of spring training.Me ever, breaking with the big league
club, and the Chips started tothe fall and a few guys got hurt.
Um Eric Wedge came into spring trainingnot healthy because of a shoulder surgery.
(16:08):
Brad Ousmus with the young player atthe time that they drafted from the
from the Yankees, and the onlyother guy that was there was Joe Girardi.
Right there was another Latin catcher,I can't remember bhil Bertoe's something,
but anyway, he so it wasJoe Girardi and I and then and then
(16:29):
so Brad wasn't ready for the bigleagues and Eric Wedge wasn't healthy, and
I broke with the big league club, which was really the turning point in
my year, which ended up anothersix years in the big leagues before I
retired at thirty seven. But boy, playing playing at Mile High Stadium in
front of seventy thousand people every nightwas incredible. We weren't a very good
club, but we had some verygood talent. When you look at Charlie
(16:52):
Hayes, uh you you you lookat Dante Pachette, Um, Darryl Boston
was there, Dale Murphy was there. Um, you know, Walt Weiss
was there for a while, andEric Young was there for a while,
and well he was there for along time. But it was The scaching
staff was Don Baylor and Don zimmerAss and amos Otis, and it was
(17:14):
a It was a good group,the ultimate collection of veterans. And for
an expansion team, you know,you need some of the names to draw
the fan base in. But thefan base came out in droves and it
seemingly didn't leave for five years forRockies Baseball. So what was that like
playing in in Mile High Stadium amongstthe the fandom that was going out at
(17:37):
the time, because these this wasan area dying for some sports team,
and now here we go. Theygot the Colorado Rockies in ninety three.
Well, you put the bullseye onDenver and you can have a professional franchise
at the Major league level for hundredsand hundreds of miles in every direction,
and so we really had the RockyMountain region and we were treated great.
Ownership was wonderful with Jerry mc morrisand uh Charlie Montford and the crew,
(18:02):
and it was it was two years, well, it was a year and
a half because of ninety four.We went on strike in ninety four,
which was unfortunate, but um,it was two years of pandemonium before they
moved over to coors Field. Ofcourse, I was in Saint Louis at
that time in ninety five when wewent to coors Field, so I got
to come back as a visitor manytimes. You know, the Rockies,
(18:23):
there's a lot of people that actuallycame into my know the Rockies were an
expansion team. They thought they'd beenaround forever. But when we when we
when we took the field, wewere the fan favorites. And unfortunately we
couldn't put a championship team on thefield, but we had we had a
bunch of fun. I remember theyou know, the first series against the
(18:47):
Mets very well. Mets fan growingup, so I remember it very well.
You know, it always seemed afterwards, it seemed like the Rockies always
had their number. But I knowthe first couple of games, the Mets
kind of took care of business,and it was a little bit. But
I was looking at the box scoresand looking at one of the games.
You were in the starting rotate,starting lineup, and I believe it was
the first time you guys beat theMets. So congratulations, quite good on
(19:08):
the mountain. Yes, that istrue. There you go. Yeah,
so how do you so? Now, Doc, let me just ask you
this. As a catcher, SoDoc, by that point in ninety three,
he lost a little bit of doctork. He wasn't throwing as much
heat as he was. He hadthe curveball, he had a couple other
pitches. But do you still approachhim as a hitter that he's Doc Gooden
on the mountains? Now, Iwas fortunate enough to see Doc at his
(19:33):
best. And you go back inthe minor league journey back in nineteen eighty
three. He was in Lynchburg,Virginia, and I was in Winston Salem,
North Carolina. You can go backand look at the numbers, but
if I'm not mistaken, I thinkhe struck out three hundred people, and
he was really, really good.He was probably the best right hander that
(19:56):
I've ever faced other than Roger Clements. Unbelievable. He still did strike out
one hundred and fifty and ninety three, so he's still throwing heat at some
point. I don't want to discreditDoc at all. I love Doc,
but you think about Doc, thinkabout what I just said. In a
minor league season, when's the lasttime a pitcher struck out three hundred people?
(20:18):
I don't think it's ever been done. No, and he had to
be That's why he had to bebrought right up, because he just he
was blowing everybody away, and theysaid, we got to get this guy
on the field. And within ayear he's so young, he he's the
rookie of the year. He wasas advertised, which how many of those
can you say? Everybody is asadvertised he was for that moment in time
exactly. So all right, justmoving out across the career. Before we
(20:41):
start to head into the wrap,ups want to talk about Cardinal Baseball.
So again, Red Sox and Cardinals, those are two organizations that are known
for taking care of their players,and it seems like you have a really
great memory and a foster relationship withboth to talk about joining the Cardinals organization
and how that ended up kind ofsetting you up down the road well ninety
four. When we went on rightin ninety four, it kind of destroyed
(21:02):
baseball for a while, and thosethat were that were not really solidified in
the big leagues yet. I hadhad, you know, three or four
years in the big leagues, butneeded more obviously. But when when When
I'd signed with the Cardinals as afree agent in ninety four, assistant general
manager was Walt Jockety with the withthe Rockies, and Um, I was
fortunate enough to play some multiple positiongames and had some success in Colorado,
(21:26):
and when he became manager in ourgeneral manager in Saint Louis, he called
me and said, who are youtalking with? And I told him a
few clubs, and he said,why don't you just sign with us,
It'll be a good fit. Um. Joe Torrey was our manager of the
first year I made I made theclub out of spring training obviously in nineteen
ninety five and spent ninety five,ninety six, ninety seven, and ninety
(21:47):
eight before you know, kind ofan off the field injury ended my career.
But um, the uh, thethe journey in Saint Louis was really
really good because you know, Jocketywas was a perfect essional. He understood
human being part of the game.He was a he was a genius in
the arts. He let the peopleon the field do what they did best.
(22:12):
Joe Tory was our manager the firstyear. Unfortunately because of personalities and
and maybe some I don't know whatthe deal was, but they fired Joe
Tory at the All Star break andgot an interim manager in ninety five,
and which was the pathway for TonyLaRussa to come over to Saint Louis and
(22:33):
the winner of ninety five, whicheverybody knows that what happened next with Tony
and so playing for Tony for abouttwo or three years, was the most
prepared man I've ever seen in mylife, total opposite of Joe Tory.
Joe Tory was prepared, but JoeTory was really really relaxed. Tony l
Russo was the most intense man I'veever seen in my life on the field,
(22:56):
and the only thing that mattered atthe end of the day was the
score of the game. And weunderstood that and Um, but we had
a veteran club. You know,we had Ozzie Smith. Um, we
had many many others. We hadjust had a really really good club.
In ninety six when he came overthere, we were one game from the
World Series. We were up threegames to one in Atlanta, and you
(23:18):
know, thought we had a tripto New York to play the Yankees.
And three guys stood in the way, one named Smoltz, one mad Black.
All three of those guys put usaway and sent us home. And
how apropos would it have been thatyou could have played Joe Tories New York
Yankees in nineteen ninety six, thatyou know what. I've thought of that
(23:41):
years ago, thought of it lately. But it would have been really good.
And um, you know, Idon't know if there's been two managers
with the history that would have thatwould be equal to be playing Joe Tory
against Tone of the russ in theWorld Series. Um, and quite frankly,
I don't know which one would wantto win and the most. Yeah,
(24:02):
but um, both have gone onto earn their place in Cooperstown.
Glad to see Tony back. Um, I think uh, I think Tony's
throwing a wrench in the soup.The way the analytical world is right now,
Tony's doing things his way in theWhite Sox. That response, I
would love to see, Yeah,I'd love to see what that. What
that's like behind the scenes, issomebody it's great coming up with a big
(24:26):
stack of charts and see what Tonydoes about that. Hey, the charts
are great. It's a great informationto have. I mean, the more
information we have, the best.But ultimately this is played by human beings.
Person that handles the players the mostand or the best, and the
people that have the better relationships andand can manage from your gut, um,
(24:48):
those are the ones that that aregonna win. And we saw that
last year in the World Series withyou know, um, I think the
entire planet looked at looked at BlakeSnell coming out of that game in game
six and saying, I don't quiteunderstand this, and you know, everybody
can armchair quarterback, but in theend, you know, I think there's
(25:11):
a lot of second guessing going on. No. One hundred percent. Now,
just quickly with ninety five and ninetysix, Mike Jorgensen was the replacement
for Joe Tory and I don't think. I think that might have been the
only time Mike Jorgansen coached at thebig league level or manage at the big
league level. Uh, kind offorgotten if you don't look at it.
But ninety five in the ninety sixtor to LaRussa. Ninety six is also
the last year of Ozzie Smith andkind of seemed like the core of that
(25:36):
Cardinals nineties teams. You know,they kind of went in another direction when
Ozzie retired. Was there a changeto the team and then the culture.
Yeah, big time, There's nodoubt about that. You know. Look,
there's a couple of big personalities therein Saint Louis, and well deserved.
I mean, Ozzie is he's thewizard, He's he's he's everybody thinks
about the Cardinals. When when youthink about Ozzie, they think about the
(25:56):
Cardinals, and vice versa. Tonyhim in town and uh, you know,
we we saw, you know,a little personality clash and all of
that kind of stuff. It wasgood though, because you know Tony,
you know, Tony ran the clubthe way he wanted to. Um,
I think those of us that werein the clubhouse at that time really understood,
(26:17):
you know how important it was forOzzie to go out on on on
a good note. And UH,I think one of the toughest positions ever
to be in baseball was Royce Claytonhaving to take over. There's no doubt
about that. But we came togetheras a club, UM really well.
I think Ozzie was a big partof that. We had a meeting from
we went from San Francisco to toLos Angeles, and UM, we weren't
(26:41):
playing very well. We ended upmeeting UH in Tom Pagnazzi's room and UM,
Ozzie was very vocal at the time, and we got together as a
team and decided that we were goingto play um uh our best baseball and
not let any distractions m come inour and we we came up with a
(27:02):
little theme between the lines and UHand we played very well. UM.
I think after that meeting in LosAngeles, I think there was a much
better relationship with the team as ateam and a team with the coaches and
and UM, you know that's that'spart of the human element. Sometimes sometimes
you have to sit down and talkthings out and we did UM and Ozzie
(27:25):
was instrumental in that and what agreat player to play with, and what
a great teammate. Unbelievable. Nonobody could make those moves that Ozzie did
up the middle, just absolutely orin the hole, out of this world.
Just the one last thing about thecatching in Saint Louis before we wrap
up in ninety six, loaded withtalent catching yourself, Mike de Felice coming
(27:47):
up. At the time, PatBorders was there, pag Nazzi was still
at the top. What's it likehaving that many great minds and great position
players there to kind of work together, And obviously you're competing somewhat against each
other, So what's it like kindof having a group like that together on
one team. Yeah, it reallywas. We did compete with each other
very well, but we understood andrespected each other. And one thing that
(28:11):
we all had in common is thefact that the captain behind the ship was
a man no longer with us,and his name is Dave Ricketts. I
think if you had Yadi or Molinasitting beside me right now, the next
generation of catching. Even though Iwas I'm not going to say instrumental,
(28:33):
but I had I had a partin the development of Yadi because I had
him for about five years and fromme when he was seventeen until I sent
him to the big leagues as atriple A manager with the Cardinals. We
all had that tie to Dave Ricketts. And Dave Ricketts was a genius behind
the plate. And if you speakwith anybody, if you had an opportunity
(28:55):
to talk to and some people areno longer with us, but if you
have an opportunity to talk to MikeLavallier, or you talked to Darryl Porter,
he's here. And you talked toMike pag Nazi or Tom pag Nazi
or Tony Pena, Mike Methini,myself, Yadi or Molina, and the
list goes on and on. Everybodypoints back to Dave Ricketts and he was
(29:18):
the master. Unbelievable. And tothink you know where Yadi is at this
point in his career, and that'swhen I talk about studying the catchers and
watching guys, he is at thetop because he's still out there. He's
still putting in a good game,he's still behind the play. I mean,
I think it was in spring training. He's still scuffling. He is
still out there all the time,and he just came back, I think
from the injured list. But whata career he's had. Briefly before we
(29:41):
say goodbye. What was he likeas a as a youngster before you sent
them up to the to the bigleagues? Oh my, he was.
I remember talking to Red Shane Dean'sone day, and I remember talking to
Mike Shannon in Saint Louis, andthey asked me, after I managed a
two thousand and two team in Peoria, Illinois, who was the best player
on that team? Actually, Ihad eight Big league on that team,
including Dan Herron and Chris Duncan andYadA your Malina. And I told him,
(30:04):
YadA your Malina was going to bea Hall of Famer. Now that's
a big limb to go out on. But when you see how mature this
kid was behind the plate. Hestruggled through the minor leagues, he struggled
hitting a little bit through the minorleagues, but his hands were gold.
And uh, you know, tothis day, when I see Yadi,
he gives me a big hug andand uh, he understands and appreciates the
(30:25):
history of the game. He understandsthose of us that were instrumental in development.
And you know when I when Iformed my company and actually my website
Firm Foundation Firm Foundation Catching dot com. Uh, there's a photograph on there
that I'll cherish that get an endorsementfrom YadA your Malina, and uh it's
(30:45):
he's He's awesome. And if ifI'm available and I'm still living, when
he gets inducted unanimously into Cooperstown firstballot Hall of Famer, in my mind,
I will be there. It's gonnabe great to see because he's gonna
absolutely earn it, deserve it,and he will be a first ballot because
there's been nobody in the last twentyfive years to come down to do what
he's done behind the plates. Soall right, well let's lead them over
(31:07):
to Firm Foundation Catching. You gavethe website name, but please anywhere else
that anyone can find you to learnmore about Firm Foundation Catching and about Danny
Schaeffer. Please if floor is yours, Okay, yeah, thank you very
much. You know, if youvisit Firm Foundationcatching dot Com or even my
YouTube. But I did create adigital DVD and also a physical DVD of
(31:32):
the catching program that I wrote forthe Cardinals and the Astros. It's it's
a wealth of information. It tookabout eleven hours to film it, and
we do about an hour and ahalf of instructional video. I think it's
pretty good, I hope, soyou guys go to it. You can
also find me at pro strike zonedot com. I patented a batting practice
(31:55):
target that's now in nine Major leaguestadiums, and so if you've watched MLB
Network and you see an actual catcheron the backstop, that's my guy.
And I patented that product because Igot tired of people not being handle to
throw batting practice catcher back there.So I took my son, who's a
professional catcher himself right now, andused him as the template. And we
(32:22):
we grace about a hundred colleges rightnow, many facilities, and in nine
major league teams. And actually ourour target was in the World Series when
the Dodgers were in the World Series. So it's pretty cool. That's awesome.
Yeah. Again, it's firm FoundationCatching dot com. It's at Schaefer
Danny on Twitter. It's where youwant to find out some more stuff,
some little tweets and stuff you've gotgoing on, some stories, love that
(32:45):
I love when you guys tweet stuffabout the Old School while listen to it.
I'll read it all day long.But that's on Twitter, and if
you want to follow me on Twitterand Instagram, it's at Chad E and
B. The website is IB exclusivesdot com. Get all the information I've
got there about upcoming events on ibexclusivesdot com. And again this was a
(33:05):
great conversation with Firm Foundation catching andDanny Schaefer. So for Danny Schaefer,
my name is Ian and we willcatch you on the flip side.
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