May 28, 2025 • 25 mins
S4:EP12 Disability World with Norma Stanley ft Leslie Lipson
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
My name is Norma Stanley and welcome to Disability World.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Hello, and welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
To Disability World, where we discuss various issues of interest
and impact as it relates to the disability community as
a whole here in Georgia, around the country and around
the world. I'm your host, Normous Stanley, and on Disability World,
we look forward to speaking with individuals, community leaders, parents, advocates,
(00:59):
and bisiness owners and resource providers who care about this
vast and vital population of about seventy million people in
the United States alone.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
And I'm excited that today we're going to be speaking to.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Miss Leslie Lipsen, who is a lawyer, a consultant and
a dedicated disability advocate and she leads Lipsen Advocacy as
well as the Georgia Coalition of Equity in Education. She
has expertise in policy, leadership and community building. So please
help me welcome Mss Leslie Lipsen.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Hi, Leslie, Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Thank you so much for being on the show. We
have been trying to get you forever. You know, I
know we've met different capacities, but I've always been following
the work that you do because it's so, so, so important,
and really wanted to get a chance for you to
get a chance to share with some of the people
who may not understand how important your work, especially in
(02:13):
the area of education is, and it seems like today
it's even more important.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
So tell us a little bit about what it is
that you do.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
So at the heart of what I do is.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Making sure bringing forth people with disabilities to make sure
they're a part of their community.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
And when you think about kids.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
There is nowhere that they spend more time they have
to legally and that is more of like a part
of their experience as school.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
It's a lot of time.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
When you think about three years old for people with
disabilities in Georgia, we're talking twenty two across the United
States twenty five.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Yeah, so thinking about how.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
To make sure not only is that an enhance seeing
experience that results in what kids need, but also harm
doesn't happen in the.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Meantime right right, And unfortunately harm does happen in the
school system without families with children with disabilities. And it
bothers me that that you know, that is not something
that's paid more attention to. Has it become I don't
know about Georgia. Did they make it a law, because
(03:28):
I know that when some people were looking to try
to make it a law where they would have cameras
in the classroom, especially special ed classroom.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Did they ever make that a law? Because I don't
think so.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
I I have a lot of opinions on that.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Okay, sure, Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
So safety is we're all after if you talked to
any parent of any kid, it doesn't matter if they
have a disability or not.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
We're going to be on safety.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
We're on safety on their phones, we're on safety on
their cars, We're on safety.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
You know, did that food get recalled?
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Like, we're all about safety.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, And so parents of kids with disabilities will oftentimes
get told certain places, certain physical places within schools, are.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
Safer than other places.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
And what the research tells us is there a couple
places that are unsafe for a couple physical locations and
a couple groupings. So for physical locations you probably will
not be surprised. But buses are very unsafe. There's a
lot of sitelines you can't see, and of course people
are driving.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Buses are unsafe. Locker rooms are unsafe.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
We know that from watching rom coms in the eighties
where kids get wedgies and get in trouble in the
locker room. Yes, and for some reason, bathrooms are segregated
whether you work, whether you're a teacher or not a
teacher in schools.
Speaker 5 (04:47):
I don't really understand that, because bathrooms are real unsafe.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
And if teachers just went.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
To the bathroom where the students went to the bathroom,
and you had the idea that a teacher could kind
of walk in at any moment, it would be a
lot safe place. So we have those three places, and
then we have two groupings. If you have a lot
of kids who don't use speech to talk to communities
and they can't tattle, and I don't really need tattle.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
I mean, yeah, they can't express.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Tell you so kids, And oftentimes they group lots of
kids that don't move words together, which I don't understand.
The research says that if you don't move speech a lot,
you should be lots of people around you that speak
a lot. Like I would be very good for somebody
who doesn't move speech.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
I'll show them all sorts of speech, right right.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
And the second place that is also dangerous is a
room full of kids who people don't believe. And so
we're talking about alternative schools or special segregated schools or
rooms full of kids who might have what they call
emotional behavior disorders, but it's usually trauma that's not been treated.
Speaker 5 (05:55):
Nobody believes those kids. They think they they what do
they think they do? Normal?
Speaker 4 (05:59):
They think they they.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Think that they're starting something that the drama. Yeah, drama.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
So so those are three locations that are that are
more likely to be dangerous. And those are two groupings.
So if we talk about cameras, we know a couple
of things. Number one, cameras don't reach the whole room.
There's no camera that we don't know where the blind
spot is right number one And number two, a lot
(06:27):
of people, as much as they don't watch what's going
on for vulnerable kids.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
They're not going to watch the feed either. They aren't
going to go back and watch the feed.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So what I would say if you said, Leslie, what
should I do to make sure my kid is more
likely to be safe?
Speaker 5 (06:41):
Well, I would.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Definitely have your kids staying the majority of their day
with other kids that are going to go home and
tell their parents so and so laid his hands on
this kid. Yeah, you know, these two kids, they get
into it and they fight and they're touching each other.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
I mean kids tell their you know they do.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
No, I mean community's gossip, and we can use.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
That to our advantage. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
The reason I had bought that up was because I
actually have a friend who you know, and you may
know him.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I won't bring up his name, but.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
He has been trying to fight something that happened to
one of his children, one of his children, and tried
to get you know, cameras in the classroom, and I
was I don't believe he was successful, but I know
he was still continuing to try. Bad situation, and.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
I think, yeah, and I think the question is that't
do we want cameras in the classroom.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
The question really is.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
How do we safeguard and make it more likely that
kids are safe? And I think cameras are one answer,
but I don't think they're the answer.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
I don't know if that helps.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, and I guess it
depends on the situation. Because I have another friend whose
child is on the spectrum and and he's different in
different ways because you know, he's he's Muslim and different things.
So he gets bullied he was getting bullied and they
they actually banged his head against the floor in the bathroom.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
They getting ganged up on him.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
And and to this day he's not totally back to normal.
Speaker 5 (08:14):
And they will never be camera him and.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
They and they and they have the they have the
information on.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Camera somehow, they yeah, they somehow they have it on
camera with those kids. And so the point is that
his parents are now trying to address that.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
It was either in the hallway or in the back.
I think it was in the bathroom something. The kids
took video of it.
Speaker 5 (08:35):
Somebody took Oh, now that I have, I understand your point.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Now, yeah, yes, kids in cell phones, there's video.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yes, right, there's no school district in the world that's
allowed of video that's allowed to there are cameras that sorry,
they're gonna get in real big trouble from me.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
You're not allowed to video tape little kids naked.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
You know, No, no, no, no, no, no, that's it. With
the kids who did the video.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Yeah, they do that now, they themselves.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
They're funny.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, but I mean, you know, and it's so said
because you know, that poor child has some challenges that
he didn't have before. And you know, I guess I
don't know if anybody actually got in trouble, but the
parents are still dealing with the school system about that,
so it's just I don't know. So at the what
did you do as a consultant? Do you work with
the school system, do you work with the parents?
Speaker 3 (09:23):
How do you do what you do?
Speaker 1 (09:25):
So for many years I used to work at the
Georgia Advocacy Office. We did investigations in public schools for
kids who were being harmed because of their disabilities in
public schools. And since I went out on my own,
I work much more in a coaching consultant role, usually
for families.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
Okay, I mean schools called me.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I mean I'd help them, but they oftentimes already have
people on contract, and there are lots of businesses that
are there that are big businesses.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
It's a big business to consultant schools. So I kind
of like, I kind of like to think about the
people that might not have anybody right interested and so.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
So through the Georgia Coalition Equit Education, we have a
lovely grant from the Georgia Council and Development Noticeabilities, we're
able to do, you know, confidence enhancement talking with people
and bringing in really great speakers on Zoom just like this,
and and give people information that will help them in language.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
That they can speak, try to speak.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
The school's language, and get real clear about what they
expect and what they need for their kid.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Right, I am one of the things.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
My daughter is now thirty six, and you know, she's
been out of school a while, but I find it
fascinating that so many parents are still dealing with a
lot of the same challenges I dealt with when SHEA w.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Was still in school.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
You know, they don't the parents don't know what to do,
they don't know how to do ips, you know, effectively,
there's so much that still not I don't know why
it's not connecting with the parents on a grassroost level.
With all these organizations out here doing what they do
to provide services.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Well, I think that the very structure of the law
that makes adherence to the law dependent upon.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
The very people.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
That need the law is a pretty bad system, right, Yeah,
But why would the burden be on parents' backs? We
have a civil rights law enforced and then we go
around going this.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Law is not working.
Speaker 5 (11:45):
Yeah, I mean, it really is not a very.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
It doesn't make sense simply just doesn't that make.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
It feels like it was made that way on purpose
to make things harder. It definitely has an illusion, don't
you think it's an agree It's like it's like a
mirage and the desert.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
You read this law and you read the things, you think,
I can this can happen for my kid.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Yeah, and then you.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
You get up to the mirage, you get close, you
go to take a drink.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
You're thirsty, yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
And if you are, and if you're still thirsty and
the mirage doesn't come out, you know what people say,
those parents just don't.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Know how to work the system exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Those parents just don't have good communication skills. And those
back like it's some sort of like you have to
have magic.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Something whatever that thing is, whatever that thing is, and
it's like, you know, it's moving the goal post.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
And then listen, there are plenty of parents who are
happy with their kids' education. I just want you to
know they never call me. I just I don't get
to talk to those people. You know, that's not my job.
But for parents who are really struggling, and I think
you really, you know, put the.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
Nail on the head, head on the nail, but is
over and over and over.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
It doesn't seem very repetitive. Yeah, and I just don't
understand it. But you know, do what we can to
try to at least educate and bring some information to
these parents on a grassroost level, because I know, and
that hasn't seemed to change either. Lot of the things
that I found out about that helped my daughter, it
(13:32):
was from another parent going through the same thing.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
It wasn't waiting room.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
We call it the waiting room advocacy, the waiting room
with other parents.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Yeah, and that helped me immensely.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
But the organizations that they mean, well, but somehow you
get lost in the shuffle and you just can't seem
to get the help that you need.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
So you know, we've got to do something about that.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
So what would you say in terms of the work
that you do has been the most gratifying part of
the work that you.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Do if I can flip ideas on people, flip.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
Ideas for people, m hm.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
And so for example, punishment by loss of instruction. People
think of that like if a kid does something wrong,
then people say to the kid, well, you can't go
to school tomorrow and you can't come in the classroom
today and you've got to go in the hallway and
you're going to be expelled. To be really clear about
what that is. That is punishment by loss of instruction.
(14:37):
It is not you can call it in school suspension,
out of school suspension, or expulsion or detention. You can
call it whatever you want to call it. But I'm
going to call it what it is. It's punishment by
lots of instruction and juvenile court charges pressed on kids
in schools. We're going to call that disability related. Disability
related juvenile court charges brought by the very people that
(15:01):
are supposed to be educating you.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
Instead they become the transition officers to prison.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
So part my favorite part of the work is to
be able to really kind of articulate to families that
they're not off base. They've been gassled a lot. Yeah,
but these things that don't seem to make sense, they
really don't make sense. And so my favorite work is
just kind of helping reframe it, like to tell parents,
(15:29):
why are you.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Exhausted by this?
Speaker 5 (15:30):
You're exhausted because the system is exhausting and the systems.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Can get exhausted. Yes, Oh boy, is it ever right?
And I really had to tell you.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
That might not have been my answer a decade ago,
but now that's about the most I can hook to
do is to make it at least clear for parents.
And if your parents and you're listening and you're exhausted,
then that makes.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Sense, absolutely, absolutely, And you know, when they transition out
of high school and become adult, that's a whole nother
level of challenges you have to deal with, you know.
And those who are you know, hopefully independent and can
possibly get jobs. If there are jobs that are out
there that hire, that's one opportunity that you still have
(16:12):
to fight for because you know, those those jobs are
not many, few and far between. And then those the
ones my daughter is not intellectually capable of holding a job,
but I still want her to be.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Stimulated, mentally stimulated and all those things.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
And you know, day programs some of them are not
as but not what you would want them to be.
They're not colleges. They do what they can, but you know,
it's not the same thing. So there's so much that
needs to be done, and you know, and you have
to be you have to be aware because you know,
(16:48):
I'm very protective of my child and I want to
know what's going on.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
I'm mot of the people who I would love at
cameras everywhere.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
But but you know, I pop in often just to
make sure.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
You know, that's a.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Great example of a safeguard. Yeah, physical presence is a
great example.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
And that's with anything.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I mean, if you have a parent in a nursing room,
the more you show up, always they're going to take
better care because they know that you care enough to
want to know what's going on.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
And it's just amazing.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
But yeah, I you know, because of the kind of
stuff that you do, the work that you do, and
so many young people that you hear about in the
news who you know are in school and get in
trouble and the parents are at a loss, and it's just.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
It's such, like I said, very important.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
So what is it the Georgia Coalition of Equity and
Education that's separate, that's your nonprofit, separate from what you
do as as a lawyer.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Well, it's so it's not a nonprofit.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
It's just like a loose coalition, okay. And so it's
a lot of different kind of child serving groups that
are interested in that. And then I also have a
insulting business where I help families individually, and I do
for that. I actually do a lot of training of
organizations that should know or could know how to help
kids with disabilities in school, but don't always.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
Know, right, because there are a lot which I really.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
Like doing that.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah, okay, My favorite thing is is definitely working with families.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Yeah yeah, but how long I've you been doing this now?
Speaker 5 (18:26):
Like twenty three years?
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Twenty four years?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Okay? Once your connection to the disability community.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
So I have hidden disabilities myself. Ah, and so I
went through school and school is very disabling. Yes, if
you have disabilities, school is oftentimes the most disabling place.
Now sometimes maybe not, maybe sometimes your best time was
in school.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
But for a lot of us, there's a.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Certain freedom or choice in our life that isn't present
in school.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
And we still has compulsory education. You know, you have
to send your kid.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
A school, and if you don't, you better homeschool, and
if you don't, the police are going to vault.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Yeah, it's no joke.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
So I wanted to be a disability lawyer, and I
interned in this work in law school.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
It's all I've ever wanted to do.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Okay, awesome, awesome, So what kind of things do you
have coming up? Beginning ready to call? I know it
was going to be you know, the was so much.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
I wouldn't love to ask you and talk about when
we only have a certain amount of time. So what
things are coming up that you're excited about with the
work that you're doing, you know, this year, next fe.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
We Well, I have to tell you, I'm not sure
about excited, but I'm energized.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I think with the current administration, we're really looking at
states rights versus federal rights. And whereas when you and
I have been talking mostly about federal rights, there have
been some changes to federal rights, and we're starting to
realize that we need to do a lot more state
level advocacy with our state legislators and Department of Education
(20:06):
making sure that we have some state laws.
Speaker 5 (20:10):
Supporting students with disabilities.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
So I'm really interested in that idea and working with
people to tell their stories well, both youth and parents,
to tell their well their stories well to legislators. And
then I'm also interested in as the process happens when
they're dismantling the federal Department of Education.
Speaker 5 (20:34):
Right now, we're taping this the second of May, and.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
So is there ways for stakeholders to get involved in
how our Department of Education is going to distribute that
money making sure that it does go to kids with
disabilities to support them and it doesn't get siphoned off
into lots of other groups.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
And how do we how do we make sure that
that happens.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
And so that's that's kind of right right where kind.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Of my brain is at, is trying to do that
out because we haven't The Department of Education has been
around since like I think seventy eight, seventy.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
Nine, I think, so I was for them.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, so we're all trying to think about like, well,
what what is that going to look like exactly?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
And we're most definitely going to have to be hawks
just really stay on top of these legislators and whoever
it is is making those laws and us decisions here
in Georgia or wherever in all the various states that
they've changed, you know, they're changing this whole thing.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I just you know, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I'm I'm an internal optimist me, so you know, I
really am. I try to think of the positive no
matter what. There's always when there's a will, there's a
way kind of situation, and so you know between people
you know the community and the ones who are active
and you know, really know how to go out there
and make some things happen. We're going to make sure
(22:03):
that that they're not going to they're not going to
let our children fall by the wayside because it's just
it's just not right and they deserve everything just like
everybody else. So is there anything else where can people
reach you if they want to learn more about what
you do and get some help if they need it.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
So I have you can find me on the internet,
but the Georgia Coalition for Equity Education is a website,
and LIPS and Advocacy my own business's website. Of course,
I'm on LinkedIn where I post a lot, and I'm
also on Facebook. Lips and Advocacy is on Facebook, so
(22:44):
you can find me those places. And especially if you
have a group of parents who are together in your
local community and you want to help them understand better
how to advocate for their kid. I have grant fund
Dick and come out and work with families and I would.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Love that awesome, So thank you so much and I
am so excited I'm going to be probably connecting with
you because i'm you know, I'm working on some things
that I may need you to be a part of.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
So can I say congratulations on your community of care?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Oh, thank you the Leadership award.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yeah, it's it's going to be interesting looking forward to
that four month process which call. Yeah, I'm excited. I mean, god,
I've only been doing it thirty six years. But that's
for my child now, to learned how to make to
help other people to maximize their opportunities with and whether
it's you know, a child or a parent or spouse.
(23:39):
You know, that's what people don't realize. You're either a
caregiver or you might need somebody to care for you.
So we're gonna it's gonna happen at one point or another.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
So you know, we're trying to get everybody ready.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
But thank you so so much for taking some time
out to be a part of Disability World today and
we will be in touch very and I thank you
you have a blessed weekend.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Thank you be blessed by bye. Well.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Thank you so much to Lisa Leslie Lipson for being
a part of our show today. She is a wealth
of information and knowledge and somebody who you know who
I've like, I said, I've ad mind for a long
time and I'm real excited that about the work that
she does and it's so, so, so necessary. So anyway,
(24:28):
thank you for being a part of our show today.
We've got some great shows coming up soon and we
want you to stay tuned for those over the next
few weeks and months. And you know, this is a
place where you don't get to hear a lot of
the things that.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
You see on typical media.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So I thank you for joining us to learn about
what people in the community are doing and contributing to
making our community, enhancing the loves of the families and
the individuals with disability, And so thank you for being
a part and until next time, be blessed.
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
My name is Norma Stanley and welcome to Disability World.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Hello, and welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
To Disability World, where we discuss various issues of interest
and impact as it relates to the disability community as
a whole here in Georgia, around the country and around
the world. I'm your host, Normous Stanley, and on Disability World,
we look forward to speaking with individuals, community leaders, parents, advocates,
(00:59):
and bisiness owners and resource providers who care about this
vast and vital population of about seventy million people in
the United States alone.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
And I'm excited that today we're going to be speaking to.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Miss Leslie Lipsen, who is a lawyer, a consultant and
a dedicated disability advocate and she leads Lipsen Advocacy as
well as the Georgia Coalition of Equity in Education. She
has expertise in policy, leadership and community building. So please
help me welcome Mss Leslie Lipsen.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Hi, Leslie, Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Thank you so much for being on the show. We
have been trying to get you forever. You know, I
know we've met different capacities, but I've always been following
the work that you do because it's so, so, so important,
and really wanted to get a chance for you to
get a chance to share with some of the people
who may not understand how important your work, especially in
(02:13):
the area of education is, and it seems like today
it's even more important.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
So tell us a little bit about what it is
that you do.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
So at the heart of what I do is.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Making sure bringing forth people with disabilities to make sure
they're a part of their community.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
And when you think about kids.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
There is nowhere that they spend more time they have
to legally and that is more of like a part
of their experience as school.
Speaker 5 (02:46):
It's a lot of time.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
When you think about three years old for people with
disabilities in Georgia, we're talking twenty two across the United
States twenty five.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Yeah, so thinking about how.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
To make sure not only is that an enhance seeing
experience that results in what kids need, but also harm
doesn't happen in the.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Meantime right right, And unfortunately harm does happen in the
school system without families with children with disabilities. And it
bothers me that that you know, that is not something
that's paid more attention to. Has it become I don't
know about Georgia. Did they make it a law, because
(03:28):
I know that when some people were looking to try
to make it a law where they would have cameras
in the classroom, especially special ed classroom.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Did they ever make that a law? Because I don't
think so.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
I I have a lot of opinions on that.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Okay, sure, Okay.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
So safety is we're all after if you talked to
any parent of any kid, it doesn't matter if they
have a disability or not.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
We're going to be on safety.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
We're on safety on their phones, we're on safety on
their cars, We're on safety.
Speaker 4 (04:01):
You know, did that food get recalled?
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Like, we're all about safety.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Yeah, And so parents of kids with disabilities will oftentimes
get told certain places, certain physical places within schools, are.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
Safer than other places.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
And what the research tells us is there a couple
places that are unsafe for a couple physical locations and
a couple groupings. So for physical locations you probably will
not be surprised. But buses are very unsafe. There's a
lot of sitelines you can't see, and of course people
are driving.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Buses are unsafe. Locker rooms are unsafe.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
We know that from watching rom coms in the eighties
where kids get wedgies and get in trouble in the
locker room. Yes, and for some reason, bathrooms are segregated
whether you work, whether you're a teacher or not a
teacher in schools.
Speaker 5 (04:47):
I don't really understand that, because bathrooms are real unsafe.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
And if teachers just went.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
To the bathroom where the students went to the bathroom,
and you had the idea that a teacher could kind
of walk in at any moment, it would be a
lot safe place. So we have those three places, and
then we have two groupings. If you have a lot
of kids who don't use speech to talk to communities
and they can't tattle, and I don't really need tattle.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
I mean, yeah, they can't express.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Tell you so kids, And oftentimes they group lots of
kids that don't move words together, which I don't understand.
The research says that if you don't move speech a lot,
you should be lots of people around you that speak
a lot. Like I would be very good for somebody
who doesn't move speech.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
I'll show them all sorts of speech, right right.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
And the second place that is also dangerous is a
room full of kids who people don't believe. And so
we're talking about alternative schools or special segregated schools or
rooms full of kids who might have what they call
emotional behavior disorders, but it's usually trauma that's not been treated.
Speaker 5 (05:55):
Nobody believes those kids. They think they they what do
they think they do? Normal?
Speaker 4 (05:59):
They think they they.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Think that they're starting something that the drama. Yeah, drama.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
So so those are three locations that are that are
more likely to be dangerous. And those are two groupings.
So if we talk about cameras, we know a couple
of things. Number one, cameras don't reach the whole room.
There's no camera that we don't know where the blind
spot is right number one And number two, a lot
(06:27):
of people, as much as they don't watch what's going
on for vulnerable kids.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
They're not going to watch the feed either. They aren't
going to go back and watch the feed.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
So what I would say if you said, Leslie, what
should I do to make sure my kid is more
likely to be safe?
Speaker 5 (06:41):
Well, I would.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Definitely have your kids staying the majority of their day
with other kids that are going to go home and
tell their parents so and so laid his hands on
this kid. Yeah, you know, these two kids, they get
into it and they fight and they're touching each other.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
I mean kids tell their you know they do.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
No, I mean community's gossip, and we can use.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
That to our advantage. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
The reason I had bought that up was because I
actually have a friend who you know, and you may
know him.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I won't bring up his name, but.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
He has been trying to fight something that happened to
one of his children, one of his children, and tried
to get you know, cameras in the classroom, and I
was I don't believe he was successful, but I know
he was still continuing to try. Bad situation, and.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
I think, yeah, and I think the question is that't
do we want cameras in the classroom.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
The question really is.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
How do we safeguard and make it more likely that
kids are safe? And I think cameras are one answer,
but I don't think they're the answer.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
I don't know if that helps.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, and I guess it
depends on the situation. Because I have another friend whose
child is on the spectrum and and he's different in
different ways because you know, he's he's Muslim and different things.
So he gets bullied he was getting bullied and they
they actually banged his head against the floor in the bathroom.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
They getting ganged up on him.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
And and to this day he's not totally back to normal.
Speaker 5 (08:14):
And they will never be camera him and.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
They and they and they have the they have the
information on.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Camera somehow, they yeah, they somehow they have it on
camera with those kids. And so the point is that
his parents are now trying to address that.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
It was either in the hallway or in the back.
I think it was in the bathroom something. The kids
took video of it.
Speaker 5 (08:35):
Somebody took Oh, now that I have, I understand your point.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Now, yeah, yes, kids in cell phones, there's video.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yes, right, there's no school district in the world that's
allowed of video that's allowed to there are cameras that sorry,
they're gonna get in real big trouble from me.
Speaker 5 (08:51):
You're not allowed to video tape little kids naked.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
You know, No, no, no, no, no, no, that's it. With
the kids who did the video.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Yeah, they do that now, they themselves.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
They're funny.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Yeah, but I mean, you know, and it's so said
because you know, that poor child has some challenges that
he didn't have before. And you know, I guess I
don't know if anybody actually got in trouble, but the
parents are still dealing with the school system about that,
so it's just I don't know. So at the what
did you do as a consultant? Do you work with
the school system, do you work with the parents?
Speaker 3 (09:23):
How do you do what you do?
Speaker 1 (09:25):
So for many years I used to work at the
Georgia Advocacy Office. We did investigations in public schools for
kids who were being harmed because of their disabilities in
public schools. And since I went out on my own,
I work much more in a coaching consultant role, usually
for families.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
Okay, I mean schools called me.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I mean I'd help them, but they oftentimes already have
people on contract, and there are lots of businesses that
are there that are big businesses.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
It's a big business to consultant schools. So I kind
of like, I kind of like to think about the
people that might not have anybody right interested and so.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
So through the Georgia Coalition Equit Education, we have a
lovely grant from the Georgia Council and Development Noticeabilities, we're
able to do, you know, confidence enhancement talking with people
and bringing in really great speakers on Zoom just like this,
and and give people information that will help them in language.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
That they can speak, try to speak.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
The school's language, and get real clear about what they
expect and what they need for their kid.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Right, I am one of the things.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
My daughter is now thirty six, and you know, she's
been out of school a while, but I find it
fascinating that so many parents are still dealing with a
lot of the same challenges I dealt with when SHEA w.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Was still in school.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
You know, they don't the parents don't know what to do,
they don't know how to do ips, you know, effectively,
there's so much that still not I don't know why
it's not connecting with the parents on a grassroost level.
With all these organizations out here doing what they do
to provide services.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Well, I think that the very structure of the law
that makes adherence to the law dependent upon.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
The very people.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
That need the law is a pretty bad system, right, Yeah,
But why would the burden be on parents' backs? We
have a civil rights law enforced and then we go
around going this.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Law is not working.
Speaker 5 (11:45):
Yeah, I mean, it really is not a very.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
It doesn't make sense simply just doesn't that make.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
It feels like it was made that way on purpose
to make things harder. It definitely has an illusion, don't
you think it's an agree It's like it's like a
mirage and the desert.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
You read this law and you read the things, you think,
I can this can happen for my kid.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
Yeah, and then you.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
You get up to the mirage, you get close, you
go to take a drink.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
You're thirsty, yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
And if you are, and if you're still thirsty and
the mirage doesn't come out, you know what people say,
those parents just don't.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Know how to work the system exactly.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
Those parents just don't have good communication skills. And those
back like it's some sort of like you have to
have magic.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Something whatever that thing is, whatever that thing is, and
it's like, you know, it's moving the goal post.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
And then listen, there are plenty of parents who are
happy with their kids' education. I just want you to
know they never call me. I just I don't get
to talk to those people. You know, that's not my job.
But for parents who are really struggling, and I think
you really, you know, put the.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
Nail on the head, head on the nail, but is
over and over and over.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
It doesn't seem very repetitive. Yeah, and I just don't
understand it. But you know, do what we can to
try to at least educate and bring some information to
these parents on a grassroost level, because I know, and
that hasn't seemed to change either. Lot of the things
that I found out about that helped my daughter, it
(13:32):
was from another parent going through the same thing.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
It wasn't waiting room.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
We call it the waiting room advocacy, the waiting room
with other parents.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Yeah, and that helped me immensely.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
But the organizations that they mean, well, but somehow you
get lost in the shuffle and you just can't seem
to get the help that you need.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
So you know, we've got to do something about that.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
So what would you say in terms of the work
that you do has been the most gratifying part of
the work that you.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Do if I can flip ideas on people, flip.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
Ideas for people, m hm.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
And so for example, punishment by loss of instruction. People
think of that like if a kid does something wrong,
then people say to the kid, well, you can't go
to school tomorrow and you can't come in the classroom
today and you've got to go in the hallway and
you're going to be expelled. To be really clear about
what that is. That is punishment by loss of instruction.
(14:37):
It is not you can call it in school suspension,
out of school suspension, or expulsion or detention. You can
call it whatever you want to call it. But I'm
going to call it what it is. It's punishment by
lots of instruction and juvenile court charges pressed on kids
in schools. We're going to call that disability related. Disability
related juvenile court charges brought by the very people that
(15:01):
are supposed to be educating you.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
Instead they become the transition officers to prison.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
So part my favorite part of the work is to
be able to really kind of articulate to families that
they're not off base. They've been gassled a lot. Yeah,
but these things that don't seem to make sense, they
really don't make sense. And so my favorite work is
just kind of helping reframe it, like to tell parents,
(15:29):
why are you.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Exhausted by this?
Speaker 5 (15:30):
You're exhausted because the system is exhausting and the systems.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Can get exhausted. Yes, Oh boy, is it ever right?
And I really had to tell you.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
That might not have been my answer a decade ago,
but now that's about the most I can hook to
do is to make it at least clear for parents.
And if your parents and you're listening and you're exhausted,
then that makes.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Sense, absolutely, absolutely, And you know, when they transition out
of high school and become adult, that's a whole nother
level of challenges you have to deal with, you know.
And those who are you know, hopefully independent and can
possibly get jobs. If there are jobs that are out
there that hire, that's one opportunity that you still have
(16:12):
to fight for because you know, those those jobs are
not many, few and far between. And then those the
ones my daughter is not intellectually capable of holding a job,
but I still want her to be.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Stimulated, mentally stimulated and all those things.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
And you know, day programs some of them are not
as but not what you would want them to be.
They're not colleges. They do what they can, but you know,
it's not the same thing. So there's so much that
needs to be done, and you know, and you have
to be you have to be aware because you know,
(16:48):
I'm very protective of my child and I want to
know what's going on.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
I'm mot of the people who I would love at
cameras everywhere.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
But but you know, I pop in often just to
make sure.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
You know, that's a.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Great example of a safeguard. Yeah, physical presence is a
great example.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
And that's with anything.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I mean, if you have a parent in a nursing room,
the more you show up, always they're going to take
better care because they know that you care enough to
want to know what's going on.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
And it's just amazing.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
But yeah, I you know, because of the kind of
stuff that you do, the work that you do, and
so many young people that you hear about in the
news who you know are in school and get in
trouble and the parents are at a loss, and it's just.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
It's such, like I said, very important.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
So what is it the Georgia Coalition of Equity and
Education that's separate, that's your nonprofit, separate from what you
do as as a lawyer.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Well, it's so it's not a nonprofit.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
It's just like a loose coalition, okay. And so it's
a lot of different kind of child serving groups that
are interested in that. And then I also have a
insulting business where I help families individually, and I do
for that. I actually do a lot of training of
organizations that should know or could know how to help
kids with disabilities in school, but don't always.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
Know, right, because there are a lot which I really.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
Like doing that.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah, okay, My favorite thing is is definitely working with families.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
Yeah yeah, but how long I've you been doing this now?
Speaker 5 (18:26):
Like twenty three years?
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Twenty four years?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Okay? Once your connection to the disability community.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
So I have hidden disabilities myself. Ah, and so I
went through school and school is very disabling. Yes, if
you have disabilities, school is oftentimes the most disabling place.
Now sometimes maybe not, maybe sometimes your best time was
in school.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
But for a lot of us, there's a.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Certain freedom or choice in our life that isn't present
in school.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
And we still has compulsory education. You know, you have
to send your kid.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
A school, and if you don't, you better homeschool, and
if you don't, the police are going to vault.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Yeah, it's no joke.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
So I wanted to be a disability lawyer, and I
interned in this work in law school.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
It's all I've ever wanted to do.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Okay, awesome, awesome, So what kind of things do you
have coming up? Beginning ready to call? I know it
was going to be you know, the was so much.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
I wouldn't love to ask you and talk about when
we only have a certain amount of time. So what
things are coming up that you're excited about with the
work that you're doing, you know, this year, next fe.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
We Well, I have to tell you, I'm not sure
about excited, but I'm energized.
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
I think with the current administration, we're really looking at
states rights versus federal rights. And whereas when you and
I have been talking mostly about federal rights, there have
been some changes to federal rights, and we're starting to
realize that we need to do a lot more state
level advocacy with our state legislators and Department of Education
(20:06):
making sure that we have some state laws.
Speaker 5 (20:10):
Supporting students with disabilities.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
So I'm really interested in that idea and working with
people to tell their stories well, both youth and parents,
to tell their well their stories well to legislators. And
then I'm also interested in as the process happens when
they're dismantling the federal Department of Education.
Speaker 5 (20:34):
Right now, we're taping this the second of May, and.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
So is there ways for stakeholders to get involved in
how our Department of Education is going to distribute that
money making sure that it does go to kids with
disabilities to support them and it doesn't get siphoned off
into lots of other groups.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
And how do we how do we make sure that
that happens.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
And so that's that's kind of right right where kind.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Of my brain is at, is trying to do that
out because we haven't The Department of Education has been
around since like I think seventy eight, seventy.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
Nine, I think, so I was for them.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Yeah, so we're all trying to think about like, well,
what what is that going to look like exactly?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
And we're most definitely going to have to be hawks
just really stay on top of these legislators and whoever
it is is making those laws and us decisions here
in Georgia or wherever in all the various states that
they've changed, you know, they're changing this whole thing.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
I just you know, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I'm I'm an internal optimist me, so you know, I
really am. I try to think of the positive no
matter what. There's always when there's a will, there's a
way kind of situation, and so you know between people
you know the community and the ones who are active
and you know, really know how to go out there
and make some things happen. We're going to make sure
(22:03):
that that they're not going to they're not going to
let our children fall by the wayside because it's just
it's just not right and they deserve everything just like
everybody else. So is there anything else where can people
reach you if they want to learn more about what
you do and get some help if they need it.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
So I have you can find me on the internet,
but the Georgia Coalition for Equity Education is a website,
and LIPS and Advocacy my own business's website. Of course,
I'm on LinkedIn where I post a lot, and I'm
also on Facebook. Lips and Advocacy is on Facebook, so
(22:44):
you can find me those places. And especially if you
have a group of parents who are together in your
local community and you want to help them understand better
how to advocate for their kid. I have grant fund
Dick and come out and work with families and I would.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Love that awesome, So thank you so much and I
am so excited I'm going to be probably connecting with
you because i'm you know, I'm working on some things
that I may need you to be a part of.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
So can I say congratulations on your community of care?
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Oh, thank you the Leadership award.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yeah, it's it's going to be interesting looking forward to
that four month process which call. Yeah, I'm excited. I mean, god,
I've only been doing it thirty six years. But that's
for my child now, to learned how to make to
help other people to maximize their opportunities with and whether
it's you know, a child or a parent or spouse.
(23:39):
You know, that's what people don't realize. You're either a
caregiver or you might need somebody to care for you.
So we're gonna it's gonna happen at one point or another.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
So you know, we're trying to get everybody ready.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
But thank you so so much for taking some time
out to be a part of Disability World today and
we will be in touch very and I thank you
you have a blessed weekend.
Speaker 4 (24:03):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Thank you be blessed by bye. Well.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Thank you so much to Lisa Leslie Lipson for being
a part of our show today. She is a wealth
of information and knowledge and somebody who you know who
I've like, I said, I've ad mind for a long
time and I'm real excited that about the work that
she does and it's so, so, so necessary. So anyway,
(24:28):
thank you for being a part of our show today.
We've got some great shows coming up soon and we
want you to stay tuned for those over the next
few weeks and months. And you know, this is a
place where you don't get to hear a lot of
the things that.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
You see on typical media.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
So I thank you for joining us to learn about
what people in the community are doing and contributing to
making our community, enhancing the loves of the families and
the individuals with disability, And so thank you for being
a part and until next time, be blessed.
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