Fossil Wars Part 1 Friends?

Paleontologists OC Marsh and Edward Drinker Cope started out seemingly as friends. Men who were exploring a whole new area of scientific study However the pair soon would become the bitterest of rivals.


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Ad free version available through Patreon subscription. Available on Spotify and through podcast aps that use RSS feeds. For more information:
https://www.patreon.com/distortedhistory




Please Rate and Review the podcast
To contact me:
Email: [e-mail]
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Bluesky @distortedhistory.bsky.social
If you would like to support the podcast: ko-fi.com/distortedhistory

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is Aric Gaskell, and you're listening to the
Distorted History podcast and program. I can't give you Mary
Nails and joy a blunder. Look, I'm radling, I'm not

(00:23):
the Barra. A long struggle for freedom, it really is
a revolution. This series will be focusing on the intertwining
lice of to men Edward Drinker Cope and O. C. Marsh,

(00:44):
men who had a tremendous influence on what was at
the time the fairly new field of paleontology. Men whose
legacy should have been their great contributions to signs and
our understanding of ancient life and evolution. That, however, is
just a part of their story. As you see, while
this is a tale about signs and expanding or understanding
of the world in its past, it is also a

(01:04):
story about the egos of these two men, Two men
who were seemingly never satisfied with what they had. They
always had to have more. As a result, their shared
desire for more fossils, more discoveries, and more acclaim put
them increasingly at odds with one another. As is carried on,
both men took to attacking the other's work, their funding,
slash finances and even their reputations. This feud between Cope

(01:28):
and Marsh would have a negative effect on the field
of paleontology, as their bickering lefty bad taste in the
public's mouth, who looked at the entire profession as being sketchy.
As a result of the behavior of these two men,
their rivalry and desire to outdo one another also led
to mistakes in confusion and trying to understand the fossil record. However,
before I get into the tale of these two men

(01:48):
in their bitter personal rivalry, first, like always, I want
to acknowledge my sources for this series, which include Mark
Jeffies The Gilded Dinosaur, the fossil War between d Cope
and OC Marsh in the of American science, Oral Landham's
The Bone Hunters, and David Raine Wallace's The Bone Hunter's Revenge,
Dinosaur's Great and the greatest scientific feud of the Gilded Age.

(02:10):
And like always, these and any other sources like websites
that I use will be listened on this podcast. Coffee
and Blue Sky pages plus for any who don't want
to skip through commercials, there's an ad free feet available
to subscribers at Patreon dot com slash distorted history. And
with all that being said, let's begin. Modern paleontology seems
to start in the first decade or so of the

(02:30):
eighteen hundreds in France, with the discovery and study of
fossils found in the lands around Paris, as the fossilized
remains of a number of different plants and both invertebrate
and vertebrate animals were studied and documented. Get While such
marvelous fossilized remains were being discovered and studied in France,
there were no similar discoveries in America until the middle
of the eighteen hundreds, when fur trappers were pushing further

(02:53):
and further into the west stumbled across some unusual bones.
These bones were so unusual that they actually he sent
them back to places like Saint Louis from whence these
fossilized remains would more often than not end up in
the hands of Joseph Leedy in Philadelphia. It was for
this reason, and his work studying and documenting these finds,
that Leady came to be known as the quote father

(03:14):
of American vertebrate paleontology. Now, Leady had not set out
to be a paleontologist, mainly because that was not really
a thing yet, hencewise credited as being the father of
American paleontology. Instead, Leady had gotten his degree in medicine. However,
he would abandoned the profession of being a doctor to
instead research and teach natural history, which had long been

(03:36):
his true love, before eventually coming to specialize and fossilized
bones by the time he turned thirty, a transition which
makes sense when you learn how he was so affected
by his first humanist section that it reportedly took him
six weeks to recover from the experience. As such, Leady
wasn't very good when it came to treating living patients.
When it came to fossils, though, Leady found something that

(03:57):
excited him like Little El's. For example, he would write
a fellow naturalist telling them quote, you can have no
idea how much my mind has become inflamed on this subject. Indeed,
Leady would go on to tell his colleague about how
at night he would often dream about all these strange
and wondrous creatures that had once lived on the earth.
It was obvious then that Leady had found something that
was truly passionate about that being said, it's not like

(04:21):
his medical training would go to waste. Instead, he would
apply what he learned about biology to better understand the
fossils he now studied and what eventually come to be
known as the country's best comparative ananimist, meaning he would
study and compare the anatomy of different species to better
understand them. Basically, by comparing these structures of agent fossilized
skeletons to similar structures in modern animals, he was able

(04:43):
to better understand what these agent creatures look like and
how they functioned. Leady would then become a prolific writer
of quote unquote scientific papers, by which I mean in
saying quote unquote because many of these documents are not
even a page long and are primarily observations and not
in depth study of any kind, which is not necessarily
a shot at Leedy, as these papers actually served a

(05:05):
dual purpose. First and foremost, by regularly publishing these discoveries,
Leady managed to keep interest in this relatively new scientific
field high, as it seemed like something was always happening. Additionally,
these papers also helped to ensure that Leady always had
a regular supply of new specimens to write about, as
he made it clear that whoever sent him a fossil
would not only get credit for the find, but that

(05:26):
a paper concerning the discovery would be published without too
much delay. As you see, by giving credit for the
discovery to the people who actually found the fossils, Leady
effectively helped to assure that such individuals were more willing
to send him what they found, which was seen as
a good arrangement because Leadi's writings on the subject were
sure to get more intention than anything written by the

(05:47):
individuals who had found the fossils in the first place. Basically,
by sending your fund the Leady, you would still be
given credit for the find, and would receive much more
credit had you tried to write something on your own. Now. Initially,
Leadi had us assume that the fossils being discovered in
the American West from places like the Badlands of Nebraska
and South Dakota were of the same type of creatures
that were being dug up in Europe. As time passed, though,

(06:10):
became obvious to Leady that the fossils he was receiving
and documenting were distinct from those being uncovered in Europe,
thus making his work and then a subsequent American paleontagist,
that much more important. Meanwhile, as more and more fossils
were sent to the leading, he was able to assemble
a sizeable collection that was both stored and put on
display at Phila Dulphie's Academy of Natural Sciences. Now, up

(06:33):
until this point, the vast majority of the fossils that
Leady received were of mammals, but an expedition to Montana
in eighteen fifty six would return with some strange fossilized teeth,
teeth that Leady would identify as the first dinosaur remains
that had been discovered in the United States. Then, in
eighteen fifty eight and Haddenfield, New Jersey, diggers led by
a member of Philla Dolphie's Academy of Natural Sciences, uncovered

(06:55):
a nearly intact skeleton of a very large and unusual creature.
Leady was then called upon to examine the fund and
oversee the removal and preservation of the bones, at which
point he recognized the animal as a dinosaur, eventually giving
it the name Hagiosaurus, after the place where it had
been discovered. This discovery in the knowledge that would be
gained from these bones would help to cement Leedy's place

(07:17):
in the history of paleontology. Now eighteen years prior to
this discovery, in eighteen forty, in Philadelphia, where Leady called home,
a boy would be born who would one day make
his own immense contributions to the world of paleontology. This boy,
was born into a well off Quaker family, would be
given the name Edward Drinker Cobe. His family being Quakers

(07:37):
as notable because followers of that particular brand of Christianity
had a tradition of studying the natural world that dated
back to their founder, George Fox, who had basically encouraged
his followers to study nature as a wave of understanding
God through their creation. That being said, this kind of
amateur scientific study was not unique to the Quakers. Indeed,
prominent founding fathers like Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson had

(08:00):
both participated in amateur scientific studies in their day. Jefferson,
for example, wrote one of the first American technical papers
on vertebrate paleontology, a paper that had been written about
three calls that had been found in West Virginia, claus
which would eventually be identified as belonging to an extinct
gigantic groundsloth. Additionally, part of the motivation for the Lewis

(08:20):
and Clark expedition was to while they were searching for
wood waste to the Pacific, they were to also make
scientific observations about the mineral soil, climate, and potential volcanoes,
as well as unique plants and animals they came across
during their journey. Clark, then, following the return of the expedition,
would be dispatched by Jefferson to Big Bone Lick in Kentucky,
where he helped to collect some three hundred fossils, many

(08:43):
of which were from mesodons. Now, this kind of amateur
scientific study was particularly popular in America because it was
a new country that lacked entrenched institutions of higher education.
As such, people predominantly men due to the societal structures
placed upon women, were able to just study whatever they
wished without having to answer to an authority of any kind.

(09:04):
As such, many of the men as science, who were
typically known as naturalists or natural philosophers because he terms
scientists wouldn't come to fashion until the eighteen forties, did
not reach that status through means that we today would
think of as traditional, by which I mean they did
not often study their disciplines in school and thus did
not have degrees in the field they were studying. Indeed,
more often than not, these natural philosophers were amateurs who

(09:28):
in some cases only conducted their studies part time. For example,
John Wesley Powell, who will go on to play a
role in the story, had no degree or diplomba with
which to declare himself a scientist. Yet still he would
become a professor of geology at the Illinois State Normal
University and the directer of the US Geological Survey, gaining
these positions in part because he was one of the

(09:49):
first men that traveled down the Colorado River through the
Grand Canyon as a part of a daring and dramatic
scientific expedition that might warnant its own deep dive someday.
Being said, this reality would start the shift round about
this time, as these self made amateurs looked to create
a scientific profession in the United States. In doing so, though,
these men were combating the prevailing attitude of their countrymen,

(10:12):
who viewed such scientific pursuits as more of a leisurely
activity and not work. That should be taken seriously. Instead
of scientists and people intent on expanding knowledge, the country
was more interested in glorifying men who made money, something
that is not at all completely made up. Indeed, during
one hearing concerning the funding of the Smithsonian, Simon Cameron,
a senator from Pennsylvania, would declare that quote, I am

(10:34):
tired of all this thing called science here. What do
we care about? Stuff? Stakes, alligators and all such things.
Unlike Cameron, though the aforementioned Edward Drinker, Cob grew up
in a family that respected studying the natural world, likely
in Barre because they were Quakers. Indeed, as young Cob
grew up on the family's eight acre estate, his father
Alfred made studies of plants, while also maintaining a collection

(10:55):
of scientific tomes than his children were free to borrow
and read. Edwards, my father Alfred also dedicated himself to
causes like educating Native Americans and helping to fund the
Philadelphia Zoo, doing so thanks to his father Thomas's success
in the shipping business. Edward, then, likely thanks to growing
up in this atmosphere in braised scientific pursuits at an
early age. Indeed, at age six, Cope started making his

(11:18):
first natural observations in journals and letters. For example, in
eighteen forty six, following a trip to the Peel Museum,
young Cope would write his grandfather, quote, I saw a
mammoth and a hydrucus. Does he know what that is?
It is a great skeleton of a serpent. It was
so long and had to be put in three rooms.
There was a stuffed crocodile and an alligator, and the

(11:38):
crocodile looked the ugliest and fustest, and his mouth wide open.
Then the following year, in eighteen forty seven, while on
a boat trip to Boston, Cope and his little journal
would write about seeing benitas, noting that quote, they're longsome
fish and twist about like eels. The young boy would
also write about how they had seen a dead metal
war jellyfish and the numerous other jellyfish that had illuminated

(11:59):
the what is around their boat at night. He even
accompanied these descriptions with sketches of the various ships in
wildlife he had encountered on the voyage. Then, in the
years to come, starting around age eight, Cope started regularly
visiting the Philadelphia Academy's Scientific Museum, where In addition to
studying these specimens already there, he also brought animals he
had personally collected for identification. And to be clear, he

(12:23):
wasn't just going to stare at displays as young Cope
was actually taking notes and writing down observations in the
various specimens he was checking out. He was drawn to
all manner of things that he saw there, from the
skulls of Tucancer were on display, to fossils of agent
creatures of which he would write quote some saurians, which
were fossil skeletons that were found in the rocks of England.
But it was very curious that there were monstrous sea

(12:45):
lizards that all being said as father Alfred apparently wasn't
super supportive of his son's pursuits, or at least he
didn't see such pursuits as being away his son could
make a living, as we mentioned, was a prevailing attitude
of the day. Still, I'm sure he likely encouraged his
sons and investigations into the natural world to a point,
but when push came to shove, he wanted Edward to

(13:05):
become a gentleman farmer. In the mold of Thomas Jefferson,
where science could be his hobby but not his career. Therefore,
he wanted Edward to learn all about agriculture so he
could buy him a farm to run once he came
of age. As such, every summer, starting when Edward was fourteen,
one school was don Alfred sent his son to work
on a relatives farm, with the extra added motivation that

(13:26):
he hoped life on the farm would help to improve
the apparently fairly frail boy's health. For his part, Edward
did not complain and actually enjoyed life in the country.
That being said, though he really had no interest in
farming or becoming a farmer despite his father's wishes. Due
to his father's plans and Edward Drinker Cope would not
earn a university degree. Instead, his formal education came from

(13:48):
a Quaker day school, which he started attending at age nine. Then,
when he turned twelve, Cope was sent to a Quaker
boarding school, which he would graduate from at age fifteen
or sixteen, at which point, and his father's insistence, continued
his education into being a farmer, doing so for the
next four years. Yet, even though he was doing as
his father wished and were never lost his interest in

(14:08):
science Indeed, in a letter to his father in eighteen sixty,
Cope would argue that the upcoming winter, when there was
little to do on the farm, would be a good
opportunity for him to attend some lectures at the University
of Pennsylvania, lectures that he had been interested in for
some time, and which would be delivered by none other
than he famed and respected zoologist and paleontologist Joseph Leedy. Now,

(14:28):
Cope's desire to attend these lectures was obviously due to
his continuing love and fascination with science. However, he matured
to cloke his request in terms that he hoped would
earn his father's approval. As you would write, quote, the
knowledge of human and comparative anatomy would be of immense
service to me, desiring a knowledge of the proper manner
of treating stock. Basically, he was claiming he didn't want
to take Leady's comparative anatomy course because it fascinated him,

(14:51):
but because it would help him better treat the various
animals on his farm. Regardless of whether or not his
father actually bought this excuse, Cope would attend the lectures winter. However,
COBE's father very clearly still had his heart set on
a son becoming a farmer. Mass the following year, he
would give Cope a farm called mcshack's Pinnacle to run. Yet,
instead of overseeing the operations of the farm himself, as

(15:13):
his father likely wanted, Cope rented out though land and
then used that money to pursue his love of science,
doing so by attending lectures at the Philadelphia Academy and
the Smithsonian Institute in Washington, while also working slash volunteering
at both institutions. Now what exactly were his father's feelings
on this apparent alteration in his plans for his son's life.
I don't really know. What I can say, though, is

(15:35):
that in eighteen sixty three, A Cope's father would send
him on a trip to Europe, likely doing so on
no small part to ensure this son would not be
drafted into the army to fight in the ongoing Civil War, as,
after all, the Copes were Quakers and Quakers believe in pacifism.
There was, however, apparently another motivation behind sending his son
out of the country on this trip, as it seemed

(15:55):
that young Cope had gotten involved in some kind of
relationship with a woman whom his father did not approve of,
and this was a way of ending said relationship by
putting a significant distance between the couple. Cope then took
advantage of this opportunity by using this time in Europe
to visit the numerous large museums, and while there he
also managed to meet with a number of their prominent scientists,

(16:16):
picking their brains as they talked about their shared interest.
As such, even though Cope had not received a true
formal university education, he was still most certainly continuing to
learn as he took advantage of every opportunity to deepen
and broaden his knowledge. Indeed, in spite of his lack
of a formal university education, between eighteen fifty nine and
eighteen sixty three, Cope had published thirty seven scientific papers,

(16:40):
which means he had published his first scientific paper at
age nineteen. That all being said, this trap wasn't all
fun and learning for Cope, as during this time in
Europe he also experienced some significant struggles. While sure, this
was a chance for Cope to escape his father's plans
for his life and pursue some greater educational opportunities, and
it had still come at the cost of the relationship
that his father had not approved of. Plus, it's also

(17:02):
been suggested that he might have been experiencing some degree
of internal conflict regarding his religious upbringing that might have
been clashing at least somewhat with the scientific discoveries of
the day. Mix that in with some potential physical and
maybe even mental health issues, and you see young Cope
experiencing something possibly like depression. As he would note that
during this time in Europe he came to realize that

(17:24):
if he tried focusing on something for too long, quote,
existence becomes a burden. Little occurrences are magnified into Greek griefs.
This at one point even manifested in Cope actively trying
to destroy all his various notes and writings, only being
prevented from doing so by the intervention of a friend.
This moment would pass, though, and upon returning to the

(17:44):
States in eighteen sixty four, Cope would get a job
as a professor of zoology at Haverford College, and then
a year later he would marry fellow Quaker and distant
cousin Annie Pim, with whom he would have a daughter, Julia.
A year later, life then was seemingly coming together for
co and as it did, his focus academically started to
shift as well. You see, up until now, much of

(18:05):
Cope's focus had been on living animals. Indeed, all the
scientific papers that he had written up until this point
were all living animals that he had observed and collected
specimens of. Around this time, though, he began to shift
his focus to ancient now extend creatures and their fossils,
a change that likely began during his trip to Europe
as well. In Germany, he was able to view a

(18:25):
fossil of an Archaeopteryx, a wing dinosaur, that was the
first indication that such creatures had feathers, and thus an
early indication of a lake between dinosaurs and birds, not
to mention a potentially significant supporting piece of evidence for
Darwin's theory of evolution. In eighteen sixty five, then, Cope
began collecting fossils of Paleozoic amphibians that had been discovered
in Ohio, and he would also discover a fossilized weal

(18:48):
in Virginia the following year. As he did, Cope would
seemingly become somewhat of Leedy's protege. Indeed, he even followed
in his footsteps in eighteen sixty six by discovering the
second significant dinosaur skeleton in the United States, a skeleton
that much like the Hadrosaurs. Also found any limestone Marlin Sawthern,
New Jersey that had been deposited there during the Cretaceous era. This,

(19:08):
in fact, was an area where farmers had been discovering
sizable animal bones since the eighteen thirties. Cope, then, like
Leady before him, would benefit from this site. When you
received a letter from the superintendent of the westers Emral
Company in August of eighteen sixty six alerting him with
something they had just found. Now, Cope had no idea
what they had uncovered, but curiosity led him to make

(19:29):
the trip to see for himself. One he found upon
his arrival was far more exciting than he ever imagined,
as copea Tala's father quote, I found remained so much
greater interest than I had anticipated, being nothing more nor
less than a totally new gigantic carnivorous don as saurian
probable of Buckland's genus Megalosaurus, which was the devourer and
destroyer of Leedy'sadrosaurus and all else it could lay its

(19:52):
claws on. This wasn't Cope's opinion then, quote altogether the
finest discovery I have yet made. Now. Now, while these
remains were not as complete as Leady's Hydrosaurus, he still
uncovered a high leg, part of a jaw, and a
claw from this agent beast. As he further examined them bones,
Cope would abandon his initial identification as his being a
megalosaurus and instead called a fine lapist, aquilinguist, or eagle

(20:16):
called terrible leper. Now, dinosaurs, a name first coined in
eighteen forty one by English Ananimous Richard Owen, were still
a little known of at the time. Indeed, before Cope
and Leady, the assumption had been that all dinosaurs, even
those with particularly short forelimbs, walked around on all fours. Leady,
as comparative Ananimous, however, was convinced after examining his hydrosaurus

(20:38):
remains that his creature, at the very least, was far
more likely to have walked around on its two high limbs,
a conclusion that Cope, who had taken Lady's course on
comparative anatomy, agreed with especially after examining his own find
This discovery would have an impact on Cope's life, as
the excitement he experienced uncovering and examining these bones contrasted
strongly with the frustration he felt with the quote unquote

(21:01):
flimmery involved with dealing with the other faculty and administration
at Haverford. Cole Yucy did not always play well with others.
While a number of people who got to know him
over the years would be a staunch allies, he didn't
only seem to get along with other people or work
very well within a structured environment. Cope, it seems, was
a bit eccentric and more of a lone wolf type,

(21:22):
and so he quit his job at Haverford. As he did,
it seems he initially tried to dedicate more of his
attention to not only conducting his own research, but also
managing his farm. Yet again, though Cope would find the
life of a gentleman farmer that his father wanted for
him to be an ill fit. As a result, Cope
would saw the farm and invest the money from the
sale so that he might dedicate his attention full time

(21:45):
to his scientific pursuits. In doing so, he would also
move his family, his wife Annie and their baby daughter Julia,
to head and Field, New Jersey, so that they could
be closer to the place where these fossilized discoveries were
being made and were Drinker Cope, then, despite his lack
of a formal university education, had decided to dedicate his
life to science. As he did, he likely could have

(22:06):
never imagined that by doing so, he would place himself
in a lifelong feud with another man who simiplarly had
dedicated his life to science, but had taken a significantly
different path in getting there. Off Neil Charles Marsh had

(22:39):
been born in eighteen thirty one, nine years before the
man who would one day become his rival. Off Neil, however,
throughout his life would more commonly be referred to as
OC Marsh, as he hated his first name, and I
can't say that I blame him, as I don't even
particularly like saying it now. The Marsh family had a
long history in the New England area, having first arrived

(22:59):
there in lesson to two decades after the initial Mayflower landing. Indeed,
both OCE's mothers and father's families were some of the
oldest in the country. Members of such families are typically
beneficiaries of generational wealth, but that was not the case
for Oc. Indeed, while his father had at one point
trot his hand as starting a shoe factory, that venture
had failed as a result. As a result, the family

(23:23):
was fairly poor and forced a working not very successful
farm as debt continued to pile up. Making things worse
was the fact that OCE's mother would die of cholera
when he was just three years old. When his father remarried,
Oc suddenly found himself with a number of younger step
brothers and step sisters. As the eldest son in the family, then,
OCE's father expected him to be a stalwarts source of

(23:44):
labor on the family farm. This would prove to be
a source of friction between him and his father, as
Oc did not really seem to enjoy life on the farm. Instead,
he was more interested in wandering the woods and going hunting.
The monotony of life on the farm would be alleviated
with the arrival of retirederal Ezekiel Jewett, an amateur scientist
who did not have a high opinion of traditional academics.

(24:05):
Jewett in particular was fascinated with minerals and was drawn
to the area around the Erie Canal, where the Marsh
family lived and his search to add to his collection
as the work digging the canal had exposed a number
of minerals and fossils, because, as it turns out, the
area was home to a collection of fairly rich fossil beds.
Upon arriving in the area, Colonel Jewett would meet him
be friendly Marsh family in general, but especially young Oc,

(24:28):
and in doing so hoped to implant in him in
interest in fossils and minerals. That being said, as OC
grew older, his main focus seemed to simply be getting
off the farm. As such, he pursued jobs in surveying
and carpentry, but neither occupation really stock. So when he
turned twenty one and received some cash for a property
his mother had owned, Oc decided to attend the Phillips

(24:49):
Academy in Andover. In doing so, he didn't really seem
to know what he wanted to study. Instead, more than
anything else, it seems like he just really wanted to
get off the farm. Oc then, during his freshman year,
seemed to be mainly focused on extracurricular pursuits like duck
hunting and playing dice that somemmer. Though OC's elder sister, Mary,
his mother's only other child, took ill and died. Making

(25:11):
the sauce even more cruel and crushing for young Marsh
was the fact that Mary was just twenty three years old,
which was almost the same age their mother had been
when she had died. The impact of this loss and
his mother's sister, Judith Russell getting in his ear about
the benefits of a good education really seemed to get
to Marsh come the following school year. Then OC threw

(25:31):
himself into his studies. Meanwhile, Judith became a bit of
a conduit between her nephew OC and a rich brother,
the multi millionaire George Peabuddy. Peabuddy UC was the owner
of the world's largest mercantile company, but he was a
bachelor with no children to give his fortune two. He was, however,
a fairly generous man and a strong believer in education.

(25:53):
For example, during his lifetime, Peabuddy would donate three point
five million to elementary schools and teacher colleges, and ultimately
Peabuddy would give away something like eight of the twelve
million Dallarsie collected over his life, including two point five
million for low cost housing for the poor. As for oc,
he threw himself into his studies while Judith kept an
eye on her sister's lone remaining child for her wealthy brother,

(26:15):
who was funding his education. The newly dedicated O. C.
Marsh in particular embraced the interest in minerals and natural
history that Colonel Juwett helped a foster. Indeed, during that
summer between his first and second year at the Phillips Academy,
Marsh would work at the Essex Institute in Salem or
rating their mineral collection. He also started spending some of
his spare time collecting various minerals around New York and Massachusetts. Meanwhile,

(26:39):
he also suddenly started excelling in his classes and even
became involved in school politics. Marsh then would ultimately graduate
from the Phillips Academy in eighteen sixty five at age
twenty four, as the valedictorian of his class. Now, up
until this pon, it seems that Marsh's and Judith had
been the sole source of any kind of communication between
her wealthy brother and their dear parted sister's son. Upon

(27:01):
his graduation, though, Marsh would apparently for the first time,
write his uncle a letter in which he both thanked
him for his assistance and apologized for not running him previously,
explaining that his belief was it would be better to
demonstrate his dedication to his education than to try and
express it with words. In doing so, OC then informed
his wealthy uncle that he very much would like to

(27:23):
now go on to attend Yale, promising Peabody that he
would not regret this assistance should he decide to grant it.
The wealthy Peaboddy was apparently sufficially impressed by his nephew
and his dedication to learning that not only would he
cover all his expenses for attending Yale, but he also
guaranteed the young man an additional one hundred dollars in
pocket money annually. As for the school that Marsh would

(27:44):
be attending, Yale by this point was shifting away from
its beginnings as a school of theology to one more
in line with OC Marsh's interest. As for the first
time in these schools history, professors a science outnumbered those
of theology. Marsh then, much like he had following his
first year at the Phelips, had to be excelled in
his classes while also earning a reputation as an excellent sportsman.

(28:05):
This included becoming a member of the prestigious Yell rowing team. Additionally,
Marsh would also become a member of Phi Beta Kappa,
which is all to say Marsh made a point of
fitting in with his classmates, who apparently tooked to calling
the slightly older student captain or Daddy. Now part of
fitting in with the wealthy student body of yelmen spending
money as freely as they did, or in Marsh's case,

(28:26):
seemingly outdoing them. As you see, the average expenditures of
Yelle students at this time officially ranged from two to
three hundred dollars a year, but Marsh's expenses came closer
to one thousand dollars a year, something which brought a
warning from his aunt Judith, who was charged with channeling
the money to him from his uncle Peabuddy. While we
don't know what exactly Marsh was spending all this money on,

(28:47):
we do know that some of this money went toward
paying for the rent for the four rooms he occupied
in a private home, rooms that he filled with so
many minerals and fossils that the owner of the house
actually felt un necessary to prop up the force to
keep them from collapsing under the weight. O. C. Marsh
would gone to graduate from Yale in eighteen sixty. By
graduating eighth in his class, Marsh was granted a Berkeley

(29:08):
scholarship for an additional one to three years of graduate
study at Yale, which was a good thing, as by
this point Marsh had set his eyes upon becoming a
professor of natural science, specifically geology, whether at Yale or
at some other college, which when he informed his uncle
of his hopes, Pea. Butter responded that Oci had proven
himself deserving of more financial support, as Sauchi agreed to

(29:29):
fund two more years of study at Yale Sheffield School
of Science. Of course, since this was eighteen sixty, other
larger concerns threatened to disrupte Marsha's plans, while with the
country turning against itself in a violent civil war over
the question of slavery. Indeed, Marsh would be offered a
commission as a major in a Connecticut regiment. However, he
would decline this post, claiming poor eyesight, although he would

(29:51):
apparently continue to consider joining the Army for some time afterwards.
In the meantime, though Lee by now thirty year old,
Marsh would publish US for a Scientific Papers based upon
his investigations of a newly discovered goldfield in Nova Scotia.
A paper, since it was about goldfield's, naturally attracted significant attention,
something that Marsh more than likely recognized and deliberately looked

(30:13):
to take advantage of. Notably, during his summer expedition to
Nova Scotia and its goldfields, Marsh also happened to come
across a fossil that he found quite interesting, noting that
his initial impression of his find was that it looked
like the quote backbone of a halibit. Upon returning to Yale,
Marsh would share his curious fine with geology professor James
Dway Dana, who encouraged Josie to pass his discovery along

(30:35):
to Louis Agassy of Harvard. As Agassy was considered to
be the foremost expert of fossilized fish after publishing a
five volume study on the subject, Marsh's initial instincts that
this fossil was unusual were apparently good, as upon receiving
the specimen, Agassy I was fascinated by this discovery. Indeed,
any letter that was published in the American Journal of

(30:55):
Science in January eighteen sixty one, Agassy would declare that quote,
we have here undoubtedly a nearer approximation of a synthesis
between FISHI and reptile that has yet been seen. Marshton
had seemedly made a significant discovery, but this apparently brought
him no joy, as it seemed that Agassi was planning
on writing the paper about his discovery. In a move

(31:16):
indicative of his behavior during the Fossil Wars, marsh would
take his fossil back and begin his own study of
it with the Yale graduate student, eventually come to the
conclusion that the venerated and highly respected Harvard professor Agassi's
initial impression had been wrong. This was not some fusion
of fission reptile, but part of a twelve foot long,
cold blooded reptile that was adapted for life in the

(31:37):
sea but had to surface to breathe, all of which
he wrote up in a sixteen page report based upon
the two bones he had found in Nova Scotia. Marsh's conclusions, however,
would also be proven wrong, as subsequent scientists would decide
that this was not a reptile at all, but an
early amphibian. Regardless O. C. Marsh Wood, In eighteen sixty two,
Earnest Masters agree for Neil Sheffield Scientific School, a school

(32:01):
which was widely considered to be the best science program
in the nation. With this accomplished, Marsh then headed for Europe,
intent on completing his formal training by taking classes in
geology and biology in universities in Berlin, Heidelberg, and Breslau,
as Germany at the time was considered to be the
world's leader in university science now. During this period, Marsh

(32:21):
also dedicated his time to really working as rich but
aging uncle George Peaboddy, you see, was now nearly seventy
and as a part of his estate planning he intended
to give one hundred and fifty thousand dollars to Harvard,
as it was a school that much of the Peabuddy
family had attended. Upon learning of this, though Marsh kind
of hated at the idea, maybe his uncle would consider

(32:41):
supporting his alma mater, Yale as well, a move that
was more than likely a part of a scheme by
Marsh to help secure for himself a highly desirable position
as a professor at Yale. Indeed, after making this suggestion
to his wealthy uncle, Marsh made opponent wrinting geologist and
mineralogists Benjamin Silamon, who was known to be quite influential

(33:02):
at Yale, asking him how the school could best use
a donation similar to the one his uncle was planning
to give the Harvard. Doing so, as Marsh may clear
to the other man that he planned to try and
influence his rich uncle as much as possible to aid
his beloved Yale because that was the only institution that
he had any interest in. Excited at this prospect, Silomon
replied to Marsh, telling him that the money he proposed

(33:24):
could be used to pay for a new science building,
which would of course bear the name of the individual
who donated the money. With the hook now baited. The
following year, Silimon would receive another missive from Marsh, this
time though the envelope contained two letters. The first of
these letters informed the influential scientists that Marsh had successfully
managed to convince his uncle to leave a one hundred

(33:45):
thousand dollars legacy to Yale for the purpose of promoting
the study of natural science, meaning that this money would
be left to the school upon Pea Buddy's death. However,
Marsh suggested that there was still the possibility that he
could still convince his uncle to give the s school
the gifts sooner than that, which brings us to Marsh's
second letter, one in which he did not mention his

(34:05):
rich uncle or the potential gift he was leaving the school,
Although the fact that both of these letters were sent
in the same envelope ensured that the implication that these
two subjects were connected was made clear. As you see
in this letter, martianquard as to what precisely he should
be studying while in Germany. Specifically, he wanted to know
what would be the best field for him to pursue
so that he might be hired as a professor at

(34:27):
Yale when he was done. Basically, Marsh was asking if
he were to study this specific type of science, quote,
will there be an opportunity available of making such attainments
useful upon my return? Meaning what should he study so
as to ensure that he would be made a yell professor,
a request which again held extra weight thanks to the
other letter in the envelope. This then wasn't just anyone

(34:50):
asking about potentially joining the exclusive ranks of Yale professors.
This was someone with at least a one hundred thousand
dollars donation to the institution backing them up. As such,
Suliman would suggest paleontology as the field of study that
he should pursue so as to guarantee himself a position
at Yale, a sentiment that one of Marsh's former professors,
who he was also in communication with, would echo, as

(35:12):
this man would inform Marsh that they had no professor
in that field at that time, but it was when
they were looking to create, meaning that there was no
such thing as a Yale professor of paleontology, but there
was talk of creating that position, and so it should
be fairly easy for Marsh to get a pointed to
that role. With that knowledge in hand, Marsh then set
aside his passion for mineralogy his quote unquote first love

(35:35):
to dedicate himself to the study of paleontology so that
he might get a job at Yale, a position with
which Marsh would almost instantly become one of the most
prominent men in the field in the United States, as
not only would he become the country's first professor of paleontology,
but he would even more importantly be the professor of
paleontology at its leading institution of science, Yale. That being said,

(35:57):
while Marsh was more or less a shoe in for
the business, there was still a weird kind of game
being played by him and Nail. You see, the school
was by this point well aware Marsh's rich uncle, and
they didn't really feel like paying the salary of another professor,
especially if they did not have to. So they handed
and hauled about this issue in an effort to get
Marsha's uncle to increase his donation so as to pay

(36:19):
for the position salary, basically saying, will give him the
title of Yale Professor of Paleontology, but you will still
have to pay for a salary, something which Peabody actually
agreed to, but his nephew would refuse. Instead, Marsh would
accept an unpaid professorship, doing so not because he was
above taking money from his uncle. Indeed, he was able
to turn down this salary because he would still be

(36:41):
able to live a comfortable life thanks to money coming
from Peabody. Instead, Marsha's apparent reason for accepting the position
but not the salary was because such an arrangement meant
he got the title but no actual responsibilities in terms
of teaching classes and the like. As such, he would
be free to conduct his own research, all the while
having the weight of Yell behind him and everything he did.

(37:30):
In eighteen sixty nine, in Cardiff, New York, a potentially
monumental discovery was made when what appeared to be the
remains of a giant petrified man were found buried on
the farmer one William Newell. This was massive news, as
people from all over came to see the so called
Cardiff Giant and debate whether or not it was real
and what it possibly meant. Some were convinced it was

(37:51):
petrified remains and maybe even proof of the veracity of
the Bible, which had spoken of giants, while others dismissed
such ideas and instead he suggested that this was a
statue carved by some ancient, unknown, advanced civilization that had
once existed on the continent. The people who came to
see for themselves and discuss such topics originally paid a
small entrance fee at the farm to see the quote

(38:13):
unquote giant, but soon recognizing this as a great money
making opportunity, a syndicated prominent Syracuse businessman purchased a giant
for thirty thousand dollars to put it on display in
their city. Now, during this time, multiple experts examined the
giant for themselves. Among them was local geologists doctor John Boynton,
who would come away convinced these are not petrified remains,

(38:34):
as was the popular claim. Instead it was a statue
that he estimated to be at least three hundred years old.
Then there was James Hall, the director of the New
York State Geological Society, who went even further as he
proclaimed the card of Giant to be the quote most
remarkable object yet brought to light in this country, and,
although perhaps not dating back to the Stone Age, is

(38:56):
nevertheless deserving of the attention of archaeologists. Which is all
the say that at this point multiple individuals who should
have been experts in such matters had viewed and examined
the Cardiff Giant for themselves and supported its authenticity. While
perhaps not the petrified remains of a giant as was
originally claimed, it was at the very least an agent
statue of incredible value. Wanting a look at this supposed

(39:19):
magnificent find for himself. The thirty eight year old O. C. Marsh,
who was at this point in his third year as
Yale's professor of paleontology, arrived in Syracuse to examine the
giant at the behest of an old college friend. Now,
Marsh was distinct for the men who had so far
examined the giant in that he had actual university training
as local geologist. Doctor John Boynton's education was in medicine,

(39:40):
not geology, and James Hall, the New York State Geological
Society's Director's main experience with geology came from doing surveys
for the Erie Canal. Marsh then, in one version of
the story, spent some time walking around the stone giant,
inspecting it, before departing without a word. He would, however,
write his friend, who had asked him to check the
giant the following day to tell him about what he

(40:02):
had found. Marsh then would inform his friend then an
examined nation, which had lasted only a couple of minutes,
was enough to quote satisfy me that my first suspicion
in regard to it were correct, viz. That it is
of very recent origin and a most decided humbug, a
comment that would soon be reprinted along with the rested
letter all across the country, a comment which was a

(40:23):
bit of a shot across the bow of the aforementioned
James Hall, who wasn't just some random amateur scientist. Hall,
as a director of New York States Geological Society, was
an influential figure who had even conducted a paleontological study
of the Devonian Period that was considered to be a
classic work on the subject. Once More, Hall was also
known to be a very egotistical man who did not

(40:44):
like being argued with, and a man who was known
to have a quick temper. Indeed, Hall was also known
to keep a shotgun on the wall of his office,
which he reportedly kept there to settle any disputes. Marsh, however,
was apparently not intimidated by Hall. Indeed, as we saw
all with his encounter with Louis Agassi of Harvard, Marsh
as a graduate student hadn't been shy about declaring how

(41:05):
the man who had written multiple volumes on fossilized fish
had been wrong about his fossil and now that he
was he Young's professor of paleontology, Marsh seemed even less
hesitant about calling out others for mistakes. After all, it's
highly unlikely that his friend passed along Marsh's letter to
various newspapers without Marsh's approval. Plus, there's also the story
that while Marsh was examining the giant, he supposedly cleared

(41:28):
out loud that it was remarkable, a comment that seemed
encouraging to one of the prominent businessmen who had purchased
a giant and put it on display. This man then
reportedly asked if they could quote Marsh on that, to
which Marsh supposedly responded, quote, no, you may quote me
on this, though a very remarkable fake, A scene which
I noted in my episode on the Cardiff Giant that

(41:49):
felt a bit off, an episode that I encourage you
to listen to the more recent, remastered and expanded version
if you want more information about the Cardiff Giant and
the man behind it. Regardless, this exchange and had fought
a bit too scripted for my taste at the time,
But upon learning more about Marsh and how he seemingly
enjoyed pointing out others' mistakes, I'm not so sure about
any more. Perhaps then, this did happen. Either way, Mars

(42:13):
simply did not seem to be the least bit afraid
of crossing and even potentially humiliating his fellow scientists, as
to him, the evidence was clear. The giant, after all,
still had visible tool marks on it, which meant that
obviously these were not petrified remains, and this wasn't some
agent statue either, as those tool marks should have been
worn away a long time ago. Gypsm you see, which

(42:36):
the giant was carved out of, is highly soluble in water,
and as such, the only way tool marks would remained
visible after being buried in the moist soil of New
York was if it had been buried fairly recently. As such,
Marsh would informist friend that quote, the work is well
calculated to impose upon the general public, But I am
surprised that any scientific observers should not have at once

(42:57):
detected the unmistakable evidence against dentition, a comment almost seemingly
designed to mock the scientists who had observed the giant
before him. Yet still, even though Marsh's comments were widely publicized,
they seemingly did little to dampen the enthusiasm a round
the Cardiff Giant. As people continued to flock to Syracuse,
where they paid to see the giant, regardless of whether

(43:18):
it was real or fake. It was such a money
maker that the infamous Pet Barnum tried to get a
piece of the action. His attempts to purchase the statue, though,
would be rebuffed, but he wouldn't take no for an answer,
So after failing to purchase the original fake giant to
put in his New York museum, Barnum simply had his
own copy of the fake giant made to put on
his play. Marsh was running with the Cardiff Giant, however,

(43:41):
is not the only notable thing he got up to
in eighteen sixty nine. Indeed, it was just a little
aside from our main story that gives you yet another
glimpse into what kind of man o C. Marsh was
and how he dealt with his fellow scientists, especially those
that did not share his university education, something which we
will see reinforcemhen During the same year, Marsh pede a
visit the Philadelphia's Academy of Natural Sciences, a location unlikely

(44:04):
held quite a bit of appeal to Marsh, what with
its library that consisted of over twenty five thousand books
and its extensive collections of stuffed birds and animals from
Europe and from Lewis and Clark's expedition into the West.
Most importantly, though especially for our story, this was the
home of Joseph Leey and Edward Drinker Cope the Philadelphia
Academy of Natural Sciences. For example, how Ladies Hadrosaurus skeleton,

(44:27):
which at the time was the world's only reconstructed and
fully mounted dinosaur skeleton, standing some twenty four feet tall
and twenty six feet long. Meanwhile, also of interest to
Marsha's COBE's current project, as you see, he was in
the process of reconstructing a one hundred million year old
Plesiosaurus skeleton that had been discovered in Kansas the previous year.

(44:47):
Western Kansas, you see, during the Cretaceous period, had actually
been a shallow sea, thus the presence of agent fish
and aquatic dinosaurs like the Plesiosaur. The bones in question
had first been discovered by doctor Theophilis h who was
a correspondent of the Academy. Turner had then shipped over
one hundred bones back to Philadelphia, bones that came from
all parts of the animal from its skull to its

(45:09):
hip to its shoulders, as well as parts of various
limbs and vertebrae bones that Cope had to then painstakingly
unpack and make sense of before trying to piece the
skeleton back together as best he could. In doing so,
Cope was using comparative anatomy techniques that were originally based
upon the work of French ananimous Baron Cuvier, who would
theorized that similar skeleton forms served similar purposes across species.

(45:32):
Legs attached to hips and skulls attached to backbones, for example,
techniques at Cope had learned from Leades anatomy classes that
he had attended back in eighteen sixty one, and was
now using a piece of skeleton back together to that point. Now,
after more than a year of work, he had reconstructed
an animal that stretched thirty five feet in length and
had large fins and sharp teeth. Not to mention, one

(45:53):
in Cope's estimation was an admittedly odd neck that required
a new order of classification for the specimen. Marsh was
seemingly quite interested in seeing this the product of all
of Cope's hard work. It is here, then that we
likely see some of the first seeds of their feud planted. However,
to be clear, this was not actually the first time
the two men had met. Indeed, Cope and Marsh, who

(46:15):
would be so connected for the rest of their lives
and beyond, had actually first encountered each other six years
before this moment, back in the winter of eighteen sixty three,
a time when both men were across the ocean over
in Europe. The at the time, thirty two year old Marsh,
with two university degrees already to his name, was studying
at the University in Berlin in anticipation of his eventual

(46:36):
appointment as a professor of paleontology at Yale. Meanwhile, the younger,
twenty three year old Cope was undertaking his grand tour
of Europe, having been sent overseas by a Quaker father
in part to ensure that he was not drafted to
fight in the Civil War. During his time there, Cope
had visited various museums and met with men of science
as Despite being younger than Marsh and not having any

(46:57):
formal degrees of his own from a university, Cope had
been much more accomplished, having already published thirty seven scientific
papers in the previous five years, while Marsh, for all
his formal education and soon to be prominent appointment, had
only published two. Their differences, however, didn't seem to matter
all that much to either man at the time, as

(47:17):
finding another American in Berlin was a rare enough occurrence
in and of itself, but it was far rarer to
find another American in Berlin who also shared the same
scientific interests. As a result, the pair would spend a
couple of days together and would also keep in touch
in the years to come, as the exchanged letters and
generally seemed to be on fairly friendly terms. In fact,

(47:38):
Cope would name an amphibian fossil Potonius Marshi in honor
of Marsh, who would return the gesture the following year
by naming a gigantic serpent found a New Jersey the
most sorious Copaness in honor that Cope seemed to have
mixed feelings about, as while it was a kind gesture
and all the fossil had more or less come from
his backyard of New Jersey for Cope than the US,

(48:00):
the source Copanus was the quote well, and they got
away along similar lives of concern was to remember that
Marsh was currently bidding on some Irish elk skeletons. This
was worrying for several reasons. For one, this was not
how things were typically done. Usually specimens were donated to
scientists and institutions, not purchased or bidded upon. Also worrying

(48:21):
was the fact that if this was the shape of
things to come, Marsh and by extension, Neale, had far
more resources than someone like Cope could marshal. Regardless, the
main interest at this moment was Cope's thirty five for
long recently reconstructed plesiosaur skeleton. As Marsh examined it, however,
he could not help but note that the quote articulations
on the vertebrae were reversed. Basically, what Marsh had discovered

(48:43):
was that, based upon the way the vertebrae were oriented,
Coope had seemingly placed the skull on the wrong end
of the skeleton, which is to say that he had
placed the head of the creature at the end of
its tail, a mistake that explained why the quote unquote
neck was so unique that it had to required its
own new classific care, as it was not his neck
at all. But its tail. Now, according to Marsha's version

(49:05):
of events, he had been tactful in the way he
informed Cope of the mistake, stating that he had quote
suggested Tom gently that he had the whole thing wrong
and most Cope, on the other handry cause exchanged differently,
as he claimed that Marsh's comments were quote caustic. Now,
to be fair to Marsh, no one really likes being
told they've made a mistake, especially after they had spent

(49:26):
over a year working on something, so perhaps Cope took
Marsh's comments more harshly than they were intended. For this reason. However,
given the way that Marcia dealt with Louis Agassy of Harvard,
and the failings of men like James Hall to spot
the Cardiff Giant as a fake, I do kind of
feel that Cope's description of this encounter is the more
accurate one. Meanwhile, Cope, potentially, in response to Marsha's quote

(49:47):
unquote caustic and probably even quoting comments, became defensive. He had,
after all, spent more than a year on this work
and had based his placement on the head upon how
doctor Turner and totally Bones had been discovered in the
The pair then started to argue as he went over
the skeleton top to bottom. Things eventually got to the
point that they invited Leady to intervene as a neutral

(50:09):
third party. However, when Lady examined the skeleton, he came
to the same conclusion that marsha Ed Cope had mistakenly
placed the head on the tail of the creature. Now
you have to understand how much of an embarrassment this
was for Cope. As you see, this was his largest
project in paleontology yet and he had apparently messed it up.
Not wanting this to get out, Cope then began buying

(50:31):
up all the copies of the volume of the Transactions
in the American Philosophical Society, which contained the evidence of
his mistake. Now, to be clear, this wasn't something that
would be taken note of outside of academic circles. However,
it was potentially quite the big deal within them, especially
when it came to Cope in his career. As while sure,
science is all about new discoveries and adding new context

(50:53):
to old finds and beliefs, Therefore, mistakes based upon limited
evidence are not rare. Indeed, Cope was worth looking in
what was at that time a fairly new field. Therefore,
mistakes were bound to be made. The thing for Cope
in particular was he was young and still not really established. Plus,
unlike Mars, she did not have any kind of university
to plumbas to fall back on at a time when

(51:16):
such things were suddenly becoming more important. Basically, Cope's reputation
as a paleontogist was completely reliant upon his work, and
he had just botched his biggest project to date. It
was then likely, in an effort to try and preserve
his limited reputation, that the note Cope wrote correcting his
errors was fairly up tos and really did not even
seem to admit that there had been an error in

(51:37):
the first place. This note then was, in Ledy's estimation, insufficient,
and so he made upon of bringing it up during
a meeting at the Academy on the eighth of March
eighteen seventy, at which time it was publicly noted that
Cope had put the fossil's head on the wrong end
of its body. Meanwhile, as Coke's mistake was being made
public knowledge, there was something else that was just as

(51:57):
troubling going on. Involving Marsh. You may recall how Cope
and Leady both had significant discoveries sent to them from
the fossil fields of New Jersey, Leady with his hydrosaurus
and Cope with his eagle called Terrible Leaper. Indeed, Copid
even moved his family to the region where these fossils
had been found to be closer to them. All of
a sudden, though, Mars should begun publishing papers that were
based on fossils that were coming out of the very

(52:19):
same area of New Jersey where Cope now called home.
This was because Marsh had hired a reverend ah H.
Beadle to find and procure fossils to send to him
up and Yaale. Basically, rather than pursuing fossils in some
other area, Marsh had chosen the pillage what was effectively
Martian Ledy's backyard, which would have been one thing if
they all would have had somewhat equal access to the fines. Marsh, however,

(52:42):
made it so all the fossils found there were sent
to him and him alone, thus depriving both Cope and
Leady of these fines. Making this even worse was the
fact that Copid personally introduced marsh to the region, and
had even given him a guided tour of the area
and its fins in March of eighteen sixty eight. Indeed,
Cope had shown Marshie Sorry where his terrible libor had
been found, and Marsha subsequently paid off the owner of

(53:04):
said quarry to ensure that all future funds are sent
to him and Nail. Indeed, according to Coope's recollections, as
related in the pages of the New York Herald years later,
quote I took him through New Jersey and showed him
the localities, something that would prove to be a mistake,
as quote soon after, in endeavoring to obtain fossils from
these localities, I found everything closed off to me and

(53:25):
pledged to marsh for money considerations. Essentially, Cope had shown
a man he thought was his friend the place where
he was getting his fossils from, and his so called
fred had used money from his wealthy institution to ensure
that those fossils in the future would be sent to him,
a tactic that marsh did not seem to think there
was anything wrong with, despite the way he himself enacted.

(53:45):
When Louis Agassia dared to write even briefly about a
fossil discovery he had made when he was a graduate student,
and behavior that will be even more hypocritical when you
learn about how he handled their explorations of the western
fossil fields. Making this speak trail even worse was the
fact that, according to Cope, he had been crucial in
guiding Marsh's career up until this point, as he claimed

(54:06):
that Marsh had frequently come to him to not only
learn more about his discoveries, but to consult him on
his scientific publications. As Cope had claimed that quote, Marsh
never published anything without consulting me, without in fact, getting
my judgment on what should be published and how it
should be published. He invariably followed my advice and gave
me no credit. Now how true this is, or how

(54:29):
much of it is colored by later events, I can't
say for sure, although it does seem at least somewhat plausible,
given that Cope had been a far more prolific and
as a result, more experience righter than Marsh. Regardless, what
we can say for sure is that Cope at the
time was very much bothered by Marsh's sun monopolization of
the new Jersey fossil sites. We see this illustrated through

(54:49):
Marsh's agent, Reverend Beadles, communications with the Yale professor, in
which he informs Marsh that Cope had shown up at
two sites in New Jersey, where he proceeded to tell
the men working there that Marsha and not sent their
payments as he had promised. That being said, Cope further
claim to the men that he had gone to see Beetle,
who had then quote sent him out there to get
what there was, which is all to say that Cope

(55:11):
had gone to a couple of Dick sites, telling the
men Marshen sent the money, so their boss had said,
give this guy all the fossils instead. Now, cop had
obviously been lying about all this. Well, maybe the bit
about Marsh missing his payments had a kernel of truth,
as that would be a reoccurring theme. Luckily for Marsh, however,
Beetle would assure the workers did not believe Cope's tale,

(55:32):
and so he left empty handed and without any hope
of acquiring more fossils from the area. Now Marsh the
following year would have the tables turned on him when
some fossils had been found in Ohio by one, doctor
John Strong Newberry, were sent by accident to Cope. You see.
Doctor Newberry, a physician, medical school professor, and geologist, had
promised the fossils to Yale and Marsh. However, by some

(55:55):
twist of fate, they were sent instead to Philadelphia, where
they ended up in the hands of none other than
Edward Drinker Cope. Cope then proceeded to study the fossils
and writing paper on them, all before realizing that he
was not supposed to have been their recipient, or at
least that was his story. Cope, you see, was insistent
he had not orchestrated this in any way. Indeed, he

(56:15):
would write Marsh seeking to assure him of this, as
he did not want to appear in a quote very
unfavorable light as a result of this mix up. According
to Cobe, the fossils had to ride with a letter
from doctor Newberry that read simply quote, you have the
cold fossils to work with when you choose. Assuming that
the letter was meant for him, Cope then set to work,

(56:35):
and it was only after he had published his paper
that Newberry suddenly informed him but the fossils had not
been meant for him to study and write about, but
had been promised to Marsh instead. We see, then, with
these early encounters the likely seeds of this long lasting feud.
Marsh had corrected a fairly glaring mistake that Cope had
made when he had placed the skull the ap pleasosaur

(56:56):
on the wrong end of the creature, perhaps doing so
in a quote unquote caustic perhaps even gloating away. Meanwhile,
after Cope shown marshy fossil sites in New Jersey that
regularly sent him and Leady Knew finds to examine, Marsh
behind his back struck a deal with the locals to
have all the fossils from those sites sent to him
and Yale. Now, while that had obviously been a calculated move,

(57:17):
we can't say for sure if Cope's subsequent reception of
fossils meant for Marsh was calculated or a pure accident. However,
it was an incident that Marsh likely never forgot, as
he probably assumed that Cope had orchestrated the alleged mix
up to steal his fossils. Meanwhile, also playing a role
in this feud in the way ultimately played out, was
he changing nature of science in America, Cope, in many

(57:40):
ways was a representative of the way things had been done.
He had grown up fairly comfortable, which had then allowed
him to pursue his scientific curiosity as a gentleman naturalist,
meaning that even though he did not have a formal
university degree, Cope had still educated himself quite thoroughly only
topics relevant to his chosen study. The thing, whilst the

(58:01):
days of the gentlemen naturalists were fading away and being
replaced by a more professional scientific field, one where degrees
and connections to prominent institutions carried increasing weight. As such,
while marsh had the harder childhood, he would ultimately be
better positioned in this new world. This was, of course,
thanks in no small part to his rich uncle, who,

(58:23):
unlike Cope's father, had supported his pursuits of science and education.
Marshton had been able to pursue the degrees that would
help him out in the increasingly professional scientific field being
established in the United States. On top of that is,
while the uncle's money also played a significant role in
marsh getting a professorship at Yale, an appointment than effectively
launched him into being the perceived head of his field. Meanwhile,

(58:46):
despite his lack of a formal university education and being younger,
was far more accomplished in terms of discoveries and scientific
writings in Marsh. However, it would be Marsh, thanks to
his connections to Yale, that would be looked at as
one of the leaders in the field of paleans ptology,
something that may have fueled a level of resentment in Cope,
although if this is the case, he did not seem

(59:06):
to express it even in his private writings. Indeed, it
feels as if Cope would continue to look favorably upon
Marsh for some time. Despite the loss of New Jersey
fossil fuels. The feud then really hadn't quite kicked off
at this point. That, however, would change as new find
started to be made in the Western territories, as their
pursuit of these discoveries would put in Martian Cope increasingly

(59:27):
at odds. However, the story of the scientific feud's escalation
will have to for now remain a story for another time.
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(59:48):
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(01:00:11):
once again, thank you for listening and until next time.