Episode #170 w/ Claysaun Jones

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Himself.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
That'll be.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Hope a South darks a over your mouth, red you less.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Clear?

Speaker 4 (01:09):
That's right up with up, with up your boy, BX Tone,

(01:31):
Welcome back to the Dog in the Yard. Shout out
to the BX Borough today. We got Abdul Latif coming through.
My Muslim brother did twenty four years out of twenty
nine years. He never thought that he'd be in jail
that long for the things that he was doing with
that dog in the yard. Let's get to it.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
What up?

Speaker 3 (01:54):
What up?

Speaker 2 (01:54):
Do you know what it is?

Speaker 3 (01:55):
Your boy?

Speaker 2 (01:55):
Pistol Pete, Welcome back to the Dog in the Yard.
As you can see, I got my co host with me.
Ton't be active the building.

Speaker 3 (02:01):
You already know.

Speaker 5 (02:02):
B X Tone aka has Shim were in the building
with Clay Jones.

Speaker 3 (02:06):
Talk to us. Baby was good with you. I'm good.
I'm good to be here with you. Felas if you
meet you as well. Right up to love. I'm definitely,
I will say, sitting here with you guys, right dog
and y'all podcast, I will tell you you guys are
doing amazing right. I love to see what you guys

(02:28):
are doing. I love to hear individuals that do come
up here and relate their narratives right, and so much
can be gleaned from the history of so many dynamic
people that come through here and speak. And I'm glad
to be able to share this flash for real.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
I mean as you as you know, man, this platform
was created for us. You know what I'm saying. You
know what I'm saying. Like when we know most of
us that you know, when we imprisoned in these behind
these walls, we don't we don't have voices, you know
what I'm saying. Our voices will never be heard. You
know what I'm saying. So I felt the importance of
creating a platform to give you that voice you feel mean,

(03:07):
and that's why Dog, That's how Dogs in the y'all
was created.

Speaker 4 (03:10):
I definitely appreciate the bro for creating a platform, you
know what I'm saying, and then bringing me in in
the collaboration, like we're here to do the good work
right now.

Speaker 3 (03:18):
It's about you. Okay, fast, okay, talk to us, man,
talk to us. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (03:23):
Where you from, you know what I'm saying, kind of
like you know how you grew up and what kind
of financial family dynamic you had as you were growing up.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
You know what I'm saying. Okay, well, that's cool. Of course,
I'm from the best place in New York City, Halem.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Okay, you know, talk about one.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
Hundred fortieth Street, seventh and eighth, you know, got forty wolves, right, definitely,
you know. So I will say my upbringing in Harlem,
for the street, I didn't have a troubled childhood. My
parents were pretty were pretty solid, decent, uh, you know, individuals.

(03:58):
So when it comes to my childhood, I can't sit
and say that I have had many episodes of trauma.
Of course, trauma exists in the environment that I lived in,
of course, which also helped shape some of the dynamic
of my personality. But my parents, I will say they've

(04:19):
instilled in me, you know, through my father, through his
hard work he was. He was a tradesman, you know,
he done masonry and carpentry. And my mother was of course,
he was a housemaker, you know, a homemaker. So I
will say I didn't have any bad relationship with my
parents or a bad childhood. I won't say that, but

(04:40):
I will say, hold on.

Speaker 4 (04:43):
What about your siblings, Like, you know, did you have
any brothers, sisters in the house.

Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yes, yes, so I do have one brother now that
is still with me, one brother has passed away, and
an older sister.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (04:59):
So, you know, being coming up in Harlem, you know
what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 (05:01):
I know, you know, you know, earlier you was mentioning
something about you know, you kind of you were being
in the Bronx a little bit or whatever. But you know,
you know, how old are you and what years did
you come up and like, you know, and what was
that like? And okay, cool, cool, I appreciate, I appreciate, okay,
without doubt.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
So I will say, of course, being a child in
the seventies, you know, coming up in the eighties, it
was magic, as you know, as a younger, as a
young kid. Of course, later on you start to see
and experience, you know, the neighborhood, right and all the
culture that you start, you know, to grow into. Right,

(05:37):
But for the most part, Harlem was a great place
to be for a kid. You know, we had you know,
one hundred and twenty Fish Street, We had you know,
just a one hundred and forty Fishtry the parks. Coming up
in Harlem was great, even in the eighties, in the
midst of the epidemic in the eighties.

Speaker 4 (05:53):
Right, what epidemics you're talking about, because it was a
few yeah, HIV you had criss.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
I agree, I agree, good point out. So for me,
it was all of that. It was the definitely the
crack epandemic, which we know it did a number on
that's hard coming up in that along with all of
the other epidemics, whether it was the age epidemic that
was going on, the war against you know, individuals, you know,

(06:22):
and that whole thing. But for for me, with my
child eyes, I did not see all of this. I
just understood it as it was what it was coming
from where I live. So I didn't realize that I
had already accepted the way the culture was is this
is who I am, this is what my people identify is.

(06:42):
So I took to it. This is what it was,
this is what it was, and this is what we
do right exactly. So Harlem, like I said, at that time,
was a great place for me as a kid. I
won't sit and say that I was a troubled youth, No,
I won't say that. Sure did I commit all of
the the the the stuff that you know most kids

(07:05):
coming up in the projects or coming up in the blocks,
did sure?

Speaker 4 (07:09):
And what are those things like touse? Some people not
they're not from the hood. Okay, you're not from the hood, right,
but you might be from the hood. So at the
end of the day, right for people that ain't from
the hoody, what what.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
What kind of you could just be in the hood
but not be outside.

Speaker 3 (07:22):
Of the hood, that's right, okay, and not be up
the hood right right?

Speaker 4 (07:27):
So tell us one or two of those things that
that that the hood might push a kid to do
and they not think that it's criminal.

Speaker 3 (07:34):
Okay, so tooy being so for for for me as
a kid, one of the things that I understood as
just a normal thing is that if you wanted, if
if I didn't have any money, I need to get
some money. Or I said, well, you know, what are
the older guys doing? What are they doing to make money?

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Got you right?

Speaker 3 (07:51):
So by seeing the older guys when I seen them,
they you know they out there, they dressed nice, you know,
they got the cars of jury. Well, of course I
want that. You know what, what's the difference? I want
that too? So what are they doing that I need
to do to get the same thing? And what was
that in Harlem. You had to get into the pharmaceutical business.
You had to get into the drug business, right, And

(08:13):
these are the guy you're looking up to. These are
the guys I look up to. These are my heroes.
These are the neighborhood heroes. The guy that I see,
he's coming through and he's got this drop top beam
and you know, and the people are looking up to him,
speaking his name. The women love him. Hey, I want
to be that guy, got you, right, And so these
became the guys that I wanted to emulate because that's
what I saw as one as male role models to.

(08:36):
These were the guys who were the people with voices
in the neighborhood. When they spoke, people listened. I like that, right.
These were the individuals who, if you wanted to imitate something,
I didn't look at the male man or you know,
the landlord or these people as people I wanted to emulate.
I wanted to imitate or emulate those guys who when

(08:59):
they moved, people watched, When they spoke, people listened. I
wanted to.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
Be that it was respected.

Speaker 3 (09:05):
Yes, yes, you know. And so they became the heroes
for me, and so by naturalness, like okay, I'm gonna
sit and I'm gonna observe them, and I'm gonna watch it,
and I'm gonna imitate what they do, and I'm gonna
pick up those characteristics. And so because of that, those
mannerisms with those guys showed me I take on as
my personality, you know, And so that became how I

(09:29):
started to get into the drug game. However, short, right,
that was my old how old I believe I got
into the first time I really got some guy gave
me some work. I think I was twelve years old.
He was about twelve.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
Okay, Because you mentioned you had a great household, Yes, yes, family, mom, dad, Yes,
everything good at home.

Speaker 3 (09:52):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (09:53):
What was their take on your change up? You know
you're in the street. You're not doing what they doing?

Speaker 3 (10:00):
Good question? Man. So my father, like most fathers, right
when he when he thought that I was going out
there and trying to engage in street life, yeah, he
grabbed me up, the father father, you know, seventies eighties now,

(10:20):
he grabbed me up, know on certain terms, right, And
I got and I got a few cups. Right, It's like,
what are you doing? That's not what you're gonna do?
Not in my house. You're not gonna do that, not
my son. And so he responded, as any concern father would,
that's not for you. That's not the life that I
want you to have.

Speaker 4 (10:39):
So you're never respond as a young man so confronted
in that way.

Speaker 3 (10:44):
As a twelve year old, who feed my father right
because it is my father. At first it was okay,
all right, cool, but then it became that rebellion, like, look,
I want money, I want to look good. I want
to be out here and move the way I see
my heroes those guys. I want to do that. So

(11:06):
the defiance set in. So even though in front of him,
like he was like deebo, I was quiet while he
was dead, but when it was gone, I was like,
now I'm finna do what I need to do. This
guy holding me up, yeah, yeah, you're not gonna get
my weight right. It was defiance. It was the this
is what I want to do, so you may not
agree with it, but I'm gonna make sure that this

(11:26):
is what I'm wann to do outside of your presence.
I'm gonna do that. I gave my father that much respect.
I would never do anything in front of him.

Speaker 5 (11:32):
So it sounds like I want to ask you.

Speaker 4 (11:34):
So it sounds like, you know you learned at a
very young age how to be sneaky, yes, how to
be deceitful.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
Yes, yes, I will say that. I will say that
because it was me saying that I did not want
to accept what he envisioned for me as the proper
lifestyle or what he could what he perceived as the
productive lifestyle. I didn't see that, like I said, this
is I'm twelve thirteen, I'm not seeing long distance. I

(12:03):
didn't have that consequence you thinking where it's like, well,
if I do this, I'm gonna get in trouble. I
had like I didn't believe that I was gonna get
caught doing wrong. As any kid, I can do whatever
I want. So this was his response, not gonna happen.
My mother, her response was equally the same. She immediately
was like, no, you're not gonna do that right, not here,

(12:26):
and they were they were adamant about that. We don't
want that life for you. So this is not what
you're gonna do as our child in this house.

Speaker 4 (12:37):
So ultimately, what you know, you know, you kind of
endeavored upon this path or our categorize it as negativity
you know, because it was a rebellion. As we see
many young people today, they rebel and then they find
themselves in a negative set of circumstances, or they found
themselves in prison or in jail right azal And and so
on and so forth.

Speaker 3 (12:55):
So for you, when was the first.

Speaker 4 (12:57):
Time you found yourself in handcuffs based upon a decision
you will make it?

Speaker 3 (13:01):
I can tell you. I think the first time, I
think I was made thirteen. I think it was thirteen
at the time. And as I said, my drink red
it didn't last long because I didn't know if I
was a kid just trying to get out there and
trying to experience. I didn't know anything right. And so
I was thirteen when I got arrested the first time,
and my mother and the father they had to come

(13:23):
to the priestcinct to get me, and I remember sitting
there and the feeling of embarrassment, right of shame that
I started to feel when when my parents came to
get me and seeing him my father looked at me
and he just kind of hung his head a little bit,

(13:43):
and that message kind of sunk in at the time,
and I didn't really I couldn't really you know, express
or expound upon how he felt as a father. But
I know how I felt as a kid that my
father looked like he was disappointed in me young his
head and that kind of it, It sat with me.

(14:07):
It sat with me.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
We at least you have some conscious Yeah, at least
you as it's just completely aw. You know, some some
young brothers out there now, they ain't got no conscious.
They run around and just they learned conscious later when
it's too late, and.

Speaker 3 (14:21):
Thinking about that or having a conscious? What do you like?
Who do you credit? Who you credit with that like
you to have that conscience?

Speaker 4 (14:28):
Because it takes a it takes a level of subjectivity,
a level of understanding himself, a level of personal thinking
to have to.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
Allow that guilt to come over you.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
Right.

Speaker 4 (14:37):
And some would say it's arguable that that it's connected
to the culture that you live in, right, and and
some people would argue against it, right, whether it's the
culture inside of your household or whether it's the culture
inside the community outside. Agreed, Right, So what do you
credit that conscience of guilt? What can you you know,
I'm pushing you a little bit now, you're an educated guy, right,

(14:58):
who would you credit well, what would you good question?

Speaker 3 (15:01):
Good question? So I will definitely first I would credit
that with the upbringing of my parents, that's right. And
with that I would say that God definitely placed that
in my heart. And so I'm not gonna see it
they say I was perfect, I'm not gonna do that, right.

(15:22):
I want to say that it was my parents even
in their acts. It wasn't the defiance of me going
out and indulging in industreets activity. It was my father
by example showing like, look you see me go to work,
You see me work hard, right, you see that I
take care of you as my son. These are the

(15:43):
things that you need to be exhibiting, you know, as
a man. Right. So I would credit that that consciousness
to me understanding that my parents meant well for me
and this they instilled in me a level of this
is where you should be as as a person. That

(16:04):
you don't want to put yourself in a place where
you you were harming others, right, and you always want
to keep a clean spirit. One things that I tell
people a lot is that whenever my father took me
around end of his friends or anywhere, I heard so
many times guys will say your father, it's a good dude.

(16:24):
I heard people that say to me, I love your
father father as a good dude, and that stuck with me. Yeah,
that stuck with me. It really did to hear other
people say he's a good dude. I like your father,
and that stuck with me. And so throughout my life,
that's where that consciousness came from. Right. Sure, I wasn't.

(16:45):
I wasn't. I was in the street. Sure I went
out and as time went to tell my short little stint, right,
it became a little long as I got older, right,
But at the same time, I never lost that consciousness. Right.
So sure, even though as I got a little older,
got out the house. Now as I'm getting around these

(17:05):
deep my hood heroes, now it's like, okay, now I
want to jump in deeper because the first time was
that Okay, you know I was a kid. I just
got my footwear. Now I want to jump full legend
into the pool. Right, And so in that space moving
around in Harlem and in the Bronx, of course, we

(17:27):
know in the New York City in the eighties, it
was it was it was something. It was a lot
going on in the city, right, And so as.

Speaker 5 (17:35):
A as a kid, always something to get what.

Speaker 3 (17:38):
It's always something to get into, right, and so we
loved to be in the space where things were happening.
So finding trouble was easy.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
Wherever the action is, that, where the action is.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
That, wherever the accent is at, We're going there. We did,
and so that became the way we had fun. It's like, okay,
where's That's where we're going to go, wherever it is.
And so that's where as a teenager I started to
find myself in these spaces, right, And so there was

(18:12):
there was somewhat of a conflict because I'm saying, Okay,
I want to do the right thing and want to
work and do all these things. But the other sides,
like love it works for suckers. You want to get
some money, you want to do something. This is where
you need to be at, need to be outside where
life is happening. You know, where where the men are at.
We stand out here, were on the corner, were making
ourselves relevant. This is when where you want to prove yourself,

(18:33):
coming out to this proven ground. And so that's what
we That's where I want it to be.

Speaker 4 (18:37):
So I'm thinking about I'm thinking about everything that you said,
and you know, I think what you did just now,
I don't know if it was by design, but you
kind of set us up for where we're going now, right.
You kind of set up you kind of you kind
of gave our, you know, audience a visual imagery of
you know, kind of what shape and molded you and
what was taking place, and you know, and how you
came up and how the environment impacted the way that

(18:59):
you as an individual. So I know I could talk
to you as a professional and use terms like the
social determinants of health. Yes, right, because we understand the
social determinants of health is about how the environment impacts
the way that you think, the way that you make decisions.
Although you think you're making a decision on your own,
it's the environment that's impact in the way you make

(19:19):
the final decision and what your outcome ultimately comes to.
So I, with that being said, with that excellent frameman
that you set up, how.

Speaker 5 (19:29):
Long did you spend in prison?

Speaker 3 (19:32):
But first I would like to know how many times
did you go to prison? Okay, let's see, I would
say a prison, I say for long time, long periods
of time twice and to arrest too big arrest and
so the first one I was sixteen actually second, but
the second one I was sixteen years old.

Speaker 4 (19:54):
But this is when you did some time, so this
will rest, yes, But now you're talking about the time
that you serve times.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yes, So at sixteen you had your first sixteen to
have my first present, yes for what drugs? Drugs? And
the second one was was was robbery the first one,
like I said, I'm back now, so you know what,
let me get into the mood the groove of this,
you know, and I started started saw selling drugs. So

(20:20):
I'm down on at this time, I'm down on twenty
seventh Street in Harlem, right, and I'm down there and
like I said, I'm really feeling myself so much so
that I'm I'm out there and I'm just up and down.
I'm just in motion. And it just so happened that
when I got caught up, I just came back and
I had about I had about ten packs on me,

(20:42):
and that was it.

Speaker 4 (20:43):
It was like what some see some of our viewers don't,
so you just don't care. Pack of potato chip, pack
of it, you know.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
At the time at the time, I just left the
house and I had about uh ten packs of drugs
on me, ten packs of crack on and I was
actually going across down the block, across the street to
where I was going to put the stuff up and
just start making my moves. What does the pack consist of?
So at the time a pack consists of for me,
it was fifty bottles of crack okaine. And how much

(21:16):
that each bottle costs at this time, we would I
would do we were doing three for fives. It was
three for FIBs, doing trades, three for fives, right, and
so I had fifty of those, but three three three dollars,
three for five, and so, like I said, at this time,
it's like, okay, cool, I make some money and and
and I'm ready. And I didn't make it to be

(21:37):
able to get to put the drugs up because it
just I got caught. They caught me coming across about that.
So it was weird. So I'm coming across the street.
Now I have one. I remember I had on this
this long green army jacket, right, but it was kind
of warm outside. But because I had to carry all
these cracks, I had them stuffed in the pockets. And

(21:58):
so it's as I'm coming across the street, A cruisers
coming by, and I guess I had to look to say, nah,
why is this kid with this big army jacket all
across in the street had a gun on you? Very possible?

Speaker 6 (22:12):
And they pulled up and I'm I tried to take
off because I'm not gonna just stand there, and a
race ensued and I'm not gonna lie you you can
let I ran out of breath.

Speaker 3 (22:26):
I got tired, and that's why they wound up catching
me and see all this stuff on me. But as
I said, I'm sixteen years old, right, so this is
my first time I go to records allem. Yeah, locked
me up to go to records. Alley, Yeah, who notified
your parents that you was in jail? Let me see?
I think it was it was even the arresting officer. Yeah,

(22:49):
they called like, oh man, well I heard my father
in the back. In the back, I guess he was.
I guess he was saying, you know when when I
got a chest the court, it was like he did
what he did? Mother? Yeah, it was like that. And
so it was like I knew that if I was

(23:09):
able to get back in that house, it was gonna
be a fight. I know. They was gonna hurt me.
So it was at that point when it's my first time. Now, okay,
I'm going to Records Island.

Speaker 4 (23:19):
CEE seventy four Adolescens at war we call it Gladiated
School in New York City.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
What was that feeling going over the bridge? You know
what was going through your mind as young man sixteen
years old.

Speaker 3 (23:29):
So I'm gonna say that it started from the courthouse, right,
So in the courthouse, you've never like, you've never been
to Records Island. So you hear people, you hear the stories.
Guys is already there. You know, some guys like y'all
heard this. I heard that. So I'm not gonna sit
and tell you I was super prepared already. I was nervous.
I didn't know what to expect, Like you should we

(23:51):
respect that?

Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, I mean, you sit here and tell me I
wasn't fucking there was feeling. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
No, I'm not gonna We're not even gonna sit here
through that. No, I'm gonna be totally. I was nervous.
I didn't know what to expect, you know, and I'm
hearing all of the stories. Yeah, man, it's real up there.
Many Yeah, they tearing dudes up like and so my
whole thinking at the time survival, survival. You are now

(24:18):
about to enter Rikers Island and you gotta survive. And
so that was my main thinking from those court pins
on that long bus ride across that bridge into C
seventy four. How long you end up staying there? Let
me see, I stayed on record out for about a year,
about a year? About a year? What was that like

(24:41):
at sixteen? Oh man? So in the beginning, it was,
like I said it was, it was unnerving a little
bit because I'm like, man, I don't know. I'm thinking,
I'm gonna be in there with all these big giant dudes,
these A Dept Guys, and I got to watch out.
And then they put me amongst people my age. So okay,
this is I can do this. I ain't gonna problem.
I'm a fighting. This is not no bad, this isn't bad.

(25:02):
But as I'm as it's starting to sink in, like
like this is real. You're around guys who who will
really hurt you. You're an environment where you're gonna have
to hurt somebody because once again's about survival. And my
main or my primary thing at that time was survival

(25:24):
by any means. And so that feeling of being on
Rikers Island for the first time, it it kind of
set in motionless thing. Okay, you need to survive. Don't
let nobody hurt you, nobody put put you in a
position where you know you're gonna be uncomfortable or you know,
and if anything, you know what you got to do.

(25:45):
You got to strike out hard fast and make an
example like don't play with me. Right. And so at
the time, I'm hearing all these names and stories and
things going off, and like, oh yeah, man, you know,
watch out because you know it's if you got on
front expariing sneakers, you're coming in. They coming to get those.
And I didn't want to be, you know, the guy
they say, oh yeah, we took it sneakers, right. So

(26:06):
I just said I'm I'm I'm ready for whatever comes.
But I was still there was still trepidation, you know,
they were still like, Okay, I don't want I don't
want to get into this space where I have to
hurt somebody. Somebody's gonna hurt me. But it is what
it is. This is Riters Island, so embrace it. It
is what it is. How much time you end up
getting that they gave me for that drug charge I did.

(26:30):
I think it was one and a half to four
and a half. I believe it was.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
Yeah, I went to to Green Green Medium. No, No,
the first one was Ulster, Yeah yeah yeahs counter over
the bynapping that yeah yeah, yeah. I went through Ulster.
I stayed there for maybe about a month or so,
not long, and from right there I went right to Green.

(26:57):
Now Green was a different animal.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
That was a different then.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
It was tough.

Speaker 5 (27:02):
It was young, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, what years
it was?

Speaker 3 (27:05):
This? What years this was? I was this was ninety three,
ninety three to around that they ninety five or something
like that. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (27:14):
Yeah, yeah, that's where me and that's where me and
a lot of teven met at.

Speaker 3 (27:17):
That's the truth, that's true. So this is where I
ran it, that's met Yeah, that's yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, okay,
And so I definitely I met this brother at that time,
and it was we were two different people at the time.
It's like this guy I would see him and I knew,
but I seen the way he moved the circle was it?

(27:38):
I said, Okay, he's serious, right, And even at the
time you know, it worked out and everything, but I
knew brother was serious, right, and so at the time,
I'm just getting there and I'm seeing it's stuff going on,
like it was a wild place at the time. It
was gladyated school. Then so I said, okay, once again, survive, survive,
And that was when my mood was survived. You know

(28:01):
that getting being a team dealing with incarceration at that
time was it was, as I've said, it was somewhat
emotionally overwhelming for my young adult mind. And it was
a wake up call like this is the life that
you're going to choose if you want this, you want

(28:22):
the street life to embrace this.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
So at Leasia, at Leasia, at least in your conscious
you started, you know, yeah, thinks like, well this is
not right. You know, I'm here for a little year
and a half, but this this ain't where.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
Yeah you know this, this ain't it.

Speaker 4 (28:41):
I told yourself, yes, at least, but yeah, what's good
about that is he didn't tell himself he wasn't gonna
be a criminal no more. He said, he said, if
you're going to be doing this, you need to brace
yourself in prepare yours over like this. That's what he said,
what it is, So there was no mindset shift in
that year and a half or whatever. So tell us

(29:02):
about when back to the town, because that's when it
got Now you came Hold what what year.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
You came home?

Speaker 3 (29:08):
Let me see, I came home in nineteen ninety five,
no issues or nothing, first bid, A first bid, you know,
I mean it was you know, of course, so now
of course I got a couple of scrapes. Yeah, I
got a couple of couple of squabbles. Yeah. Sure.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
But anything you remember that you that you that you
anything that you seemed crazy throughout the time in prison.

Speaker 3 (29:27):
That short time that you that you can always do
Like did.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
I see some ship that it was out of it?

Speaker 5 (29:33):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (29:33):
Oh man?

Speaker 4 (29:34):
And we ain't talking about Look, we're talking about the
second time. We talk about that first step first time.

Speaker 3 (29:39):
You know what, the first time I've seen a guy
coming out of commissary and another guy run up on
him and like just like rip the whole side he's
got face off, right, and then grab his bag and
like get out of here. And to see the dude
like look and then walk away. I was I was

(30:02):
mind blown.

Speaker 5 (30:02):
But when you say ripped the whole side of his
face off. Give us what did he you mean?

Speaker 3 (30:06):
Like, what I all I caught was when I turned
When I turned around, I see this guy is backing
the way and this guy sitting there grabbing his face.
And at that time, what kind of weapons were they? So,
I mean, for the most part, everybody had raisers. Guys
are taking you know, some guys, you know, take a
little you know, the little shaving raizors and break them

(30:27):
up and take the rais out. But Gym Starr and
so whatever this guy had, it was sharp, and you know,
he he he sliced this dude on his face. And
to see this guy immediately like grab his face and
walk away, that was kind of like a defining moment

(30:50):
for me. So for one, was like I'm thinking, dag, dude,
like what you're gonna do?

Speaker 4 (30:58):
You ain't gonna fight back, And so define defining moment
for me. Tell me what that means? What does that mean?

Speaker 3 (31:03):
Because and the reason why I'm asking that I'm pushing
you is because you didn't stop being a criminal. You
didn't stop I didn't crime, no right after that sentence,
So it was a defining moment towards what so seeing
that it defined for me the point of survival. That's
what and that was what I wanted.

Speaker 4 (31:24):
That's why I tapped in because sometimes we see that
and we say we don't say and that initial state, Yo, yeah,
I ain't getting ready mess with I'm not coming back
to jail, no one No.

Speaker 5 (31:34):
Sometimes we say I gotta meet that again.

Speaker 4 (31:36):
We spoke about the social determinants of health and how
environments influence the way you make decisions about the way
you function. So sometime when we come South Bronx, Brooklyn,
Best Style, Brownsville, Harlem, were like, I'm leveling up to
that watching when I do the dude when it's my turn, like, yeah,
don't make us say we're not gonna we're not messing

(31:58):
with this no more, make us say, oh that's how
they're playing.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
I got them right, right, right, So for me it
was like, okay, that's what's going on. Now, I'm on defense,
Like you're not gonna get me in that space there
you go, right, And so the survival came was like, okay, well,
if I know me and you you know we got
an issue. Right if it gets to that point, I'm
totally on on on offense right because I have to

(32:25):
survive this right because I got, I got, I got
to get back. So when I saw that, it defined
for me, this is what's gonna happen if you play.
If you were out here you playing and getting involved
in stuff that you really ain't ready for. This was
waiting for you. So for me that said, okay, you
know what, d I don't want that. That ain't for me.

(32:47):
And so that point is survival came like I'm not
gonna be a vent to that. That's not gonna happen.
So now so now that's important, right, So now it's good.
It's good to kind of kind of happens out right.
So that happens, right, you level up in your approach
and the way that you function within the space. And

(33:09):
then you released. Tell me about that.

Speaker 4 (33:11):
Guy back on the street, la teeth on the street,
he moving around, he moving and shaking.

Speaker 3 (33:17):
Tell me about that.

Speaker 5 (33:18):
What happened and what let and then and then what
led you to your next situation.

Speaker 3 (33:22):
So when I when I'm released, then I believe I
got released. And it was around summer time. I think
it was the summer ninety six was the summer. So
I was like, okay, I'm feeling great. You know, I
didne did a couple of pull ups, push ups. You know,
I'm feeling good. So I come out, you know, wad up.
So I'm feeling good and I get back to the neighborhood.

(33:43):
It's like, okay, what we're doing, I'm back, I'm here. What
are we doing?

Speaker 2 (33:48):
You know?

Speaker 3 (33:50):
And it was like it's like I didn't leave. I
never left because I was like right back into it. Right,
So you're right, there was no at the time, Yeah,
gonna change my life. I'm not gonna do this no more.
Now it's more like, okay, so let me, let me
pivot so I can do better, you know, as they say,
make make myself a better criminal. But it was like, okay, well,

(34:12):
I know, not to do that again next time. You know,
I'm not gonna move with all ten packs. You know,
I'm gonna just have five. You know, this was my naka.

Speaker 4 (34:20):
So there was no specific program while you were inside
that made you change.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
So now you're back on the street, back on the street,
talk about it. Just gonna do it smarter, right, right,
I'm gonna do my crowd smarter than that. Tell us
about the next situation, the meat us up. Take us
to that so you know, time goes on. Of course,
you know, I'm now I'm getting back into the swing
of being home and everything. So as time goes on, right,

(34:46):
I wanted to move away somewhat from the drugs because
for me it felt slow. I said, man, that's not enough.
I need some money. Man, it's too slow. So what
it started to do was like, you know what, instead
of me selling the drugs, I'm gonna robber dudes are
selling the drug I'm gonna get dumb because up the
anti for real.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yeah, like faster money, Yeah, wait for.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
It, right, because I'm sitting there thinking I'm sitting here,
I'm running around, you know, chasing his money. Why do
that when I can let these guys sell a drug
and I can take the money. So that was my ant. Yeah,
It's like, okay, that's what I'm gonna do, right, And
so you know, in my mind it's like, I bet
that makes sense to me. It's faster money. And if

(35:29):
I could catch two or three guys in one day,
I'm on, I'm ready. And so that was my my thinking. Okay,
I'm gonna become better at what I'm doing. And so
moving around in summertime, you know, it's in the city,
and it's like, you know, at this time, you know,
people are doing good for himself. Everybody get money. So

(35:49):
it's like, okay, well people out there, you know, looking good.
They got the changes hollow. It's Harlem Hall right right,
and here I am sitting, I'm right there. Yeah, you know,
like all right, we're looking good outside, you know. And
that's why I said, Okay, this How'm gonna make my money.
This is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna let I'm

(36:10):
gonna let the you know, the guys, the hustlers go
get the money, and I'm gonna come get it from you.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
So, so how much longer you got into that when
you came home?

Speaker 3 (36:19):
I would say it didn't last is as long as
it felt.

Speaker 4 (36:26):
So No, So the time you came home, when you
made the shift to start sticking up, how long was
it from the time you came home till you decided
I'm going to start jokes.

Speaker 3 (36:36):
Oh that happened. I'm gonna say in a matter of months,
if months.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
How long you was home before you caught the bid,
the second one, the second bid that took some time
to get into, that took that took that took a
little bit of home. Use home for men to get money,
yeah joke saying, you know, get money doing what you
try to do the surviving rob He yeah, I know
all that, and.

Speaker 3 (37:01):
So you end up landing on what kind of case
what you know? For me, it was it was easier,
like I said, to go and take money, right. And
then of course I have guys said, well your look,
you know you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna take some money, right,
make sure you take big. Don't play you know what
I mean, We're not, you know, we out here playing,

(37:23):
you know. And so for me that's what it was.
So it went from you know, the regular guy that
might be hustling, well, yeah it's money there, but you
know what, it's more money to go to bigger places,
you know.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
Rather connect, you get more, right, you know.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
And so for me it became well, okay, this is
where you guys go. Okay, well then I need to
go because that's where the money is, right. And so
that was me saying, okay, I'm an any up. Now
this is how I'm I'm gonna really get to some money, right,
And so moving into that space, it was another space
where I had to slow down because now I'm moving
in a, like I said, a different pace now with

(38:00):
different type of people, and these people they're not gonna play.
And I learned that, like you get yourself in situations
that you're not ready for, it could go dark for you.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
And talk about it.

Speaker 3 (38:15):
Another moment for me was that I was putting that
in a situation like that where I had to defend
you know, essentially my co defendent and you know I
can I can say that, you know, I made sure
that we got out of our situation right, but two individuals,

(38:36):
you know, it didn't. So what I'm saying is that
it was that space that kind of moved my trajectory
to where I really delved into the deep end of
this pool. And that led up to my next conviction
right moving around in that space. And before this happened,

(39:00):
I had already I'm sitting with my wife at the time,
you know, God bless her, and I said, you know what,
I'm may, I got a couple of dollars. I'm ready
to you know, make a transition because I'm gonna say
this at the time, Remember I never lost that consciousness, sure, yes, right,

(39:22):
I never lost that Yeah, you mean well, yes, right,
I mean well with my crime, you know, surviving, right,
I'm surviving. I'm taking care of my family. I'm paying bills.
Ya want birthdays and and trips, I pay for that.
That's not a problem, you know. And so for me,
it's like, as long as I'm feeding my family right

(39:42):
and everybody good, there's no harm, no foul.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
I got you, but.

Speaker 3 (39:49):
We know that, you know, not not not so, And
so that that consciousness was there, and so what started
to happen was this time I realized that it was real.
Because when you know, you're sitting in the court and
they're saying, well, listen, just in Manhattan, you're looking at

(40:10):
one hundred and twenty five years in the Bronx, another
twenty five Brooklyn, another twenty five. When they start saying
that to you, you realize, okay, okay, maybe I bid
off a little bit more than I can handle it.

Speaker 4 (40:23):
How old were you when you were sitting in court
room when they were throwing those types of numbers at you.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
I was just turned twenty twenty one, just turned just
turned twenty one, young man. Yeah, and I remember it
was January fifteenth, nineteen ninety eight, when I was arrested and.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
They're offering you. Now you're in you in the fast.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
I'm in the state. I'm in the state and there
because of the fact that I had so many robberies,
I had robbery kids all in New York City at
the time. So you know, me and my crew, we're
we're going everywhere, right. So I wasn't the guy that
just stay in the neighborhood. So I moved around with

(41:07):
my crew, you know, and right. And so as we're
moving around, right, I didn't realize we're racking up you know,
we're racking up numbers everywhere in every borough. So finally
when I did get arrested, when it when they landed
on me, it's like, look, dude, we couldn't wait to
catch you. Yeah, so now we're gonna see you down

(41:28):
for a long time.

Speaker 5 (41:31):
So what you how much time are you ultimately ended
up getting Did you go to trial?

Speaker 3 (41:34):
Did you you know, take a please, So all of
the boroughs Brooklyn, Manhattan, Brooklyn Queens and Brooklyn Queens and
Brooklyn Queens and the bronxcuse me, they all agreed to
make my senses concurrent. Where it was fifteen in the
Bronx it was fifteen in Queens and the Bronx was

(41:58):
I mean in Brooklyn was also fifteen twenty excuse me, Manhattan.
They said, well, we're not going beneath twenty nine years.
You have to set this twenty nine years. And I'm like, Manhattan,
So you.

Speaker 5 (42:12):
Have fifteen, fifteen, one hundred nine. And then you had
Manhattan saying we ain't running nothing concurrent.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
We got twenty nine years for you.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
Right, that's the tax all armed robberies.

Speaker 3 (42:23):
Yes, yes, that's and and and all over the Bronx.
Man those arm robberies Manhattan.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
I wanted to like point that it was all on robbery,
because he swelled, a lot of these brothers are doing
outside right, right, that's your brother's out there robbing. Yeah,
not knowing the consequences of of when you catch your
arm robbery. It's like a lot of time. I mean,
so I mean talk about it. I mean, you know
what I mean.

Speaker 3 (42:48):
You definitely want to spread.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
You you know you you you you lived there, you
know we got we got an individual here that rob
not only one place, you robbed all over. Yeah, you
know what I'm saying. And there's consequences on that. A
lot of these brothers out here. They're doing the same thing,
armed robbing people thinking that they're gonna get you know,
let me get a year on an island. The side

(43:10):
not going on armed robbery is a lot. It's as
serious a fan.

Speaker 3 (43:13):
They can go bad, they can go bad, and I
know that because I've had I've had some go bad
on me, of course.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
And as I pointed out you living testimony, man, I
mean you went through it. You fought with your life, right,
I mean obviously they charged you with all kinds of
armed robberies all over the place, so you in your life.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
And so there was the armed robberies, you know, including
the the the I had two attempted murders that they
also put on me, you know, due to the assistance
of my co defende. And so finally when they landed
on me, they said, look, you can even take this
twenty nine years, or you can go to trial and
we can guarantee you're going to get one hundred and

(43:56):
plus quite a match, one hundred and twenty five years,
because we're gonna not just robberies all over the city
and here in Manhattan, you also got these two attempted murders,
which your go defending is assisting on and it was like,
what what do I do? Twenty one years old, I'm
sitting here in this courtroom and they're saying, if you

(44:16):
play with us, your life is over. Will close it
on you?

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Right? No problem?

Speaker 3 (44:22):
Yeah, no problem? They said it without blinking. And for me, half.

Speaker 2 (44:26):
What you put yourself there?

Speaker 3 (44:27):
I did?

Speaker 2 (44:28):
You know what I'm saying I did with not having
the knowledge. You know what I'm saying, the understanding of
the repercussions of your actions.

Speaker 3 (44:36):
You know what I'm saying, Yes, that's what I'm trying
to run around and take something. You're gonna be flying.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
It's not just only that, it's the people, it's your actions,
what you You know, what I'm saying is right, And
I'm gonna go to the hood. Gave you right, this
is what the hook gets.

Speaker 3 (44:52):
And I want to go to what you and Tony
kind of pointed out what you.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
With the hood.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
You guys pointed out so ship as I said, this
is a hood. You rep your hood? You canna be
you gonna be?

Speaker 4 (45:03):
Yeah, okay, So just understand what you signed up for.
I ain't telling you don't rep your hood, right, I'm
just saying, know what you signed up.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
And what you signed up for, your consequences. Know that
you will never show that it is so easy to
be put away.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
Yes it is. And so for me, right at that time,
I'm like this, this is this is crazy, this is
it is what it is, right, And so it's it's
that part that that y'all point out for many individuals
that see that as the way, you know, I'm gonna go,
I'm gonna just take this money. I'm gonna do what
I do. All right, Cool, understand what you're getting into

(45:41):
when you're doing that, because those go dark, right, and
and we know now the state you know of of
the city. When a lot of these guys do these robberies,
sometimes innocent people get hurt, you know, and it's happening
a lot, you know. And so for me, that part,
even though I was doing what I was doing, I
was my thing was it's always about the money. This

(46:02):
sain't nothing, person, this is about the money, right, don't play,
but this is about the money. And that was my
way of operating in the space there. As long as
I don't hurt nobody and take this money, everything I
did was good, Like I said, no harm, no foul,
So that's how I justified my way, my crimes, that
when it's ain't bad, I'm just taking money. That's all

(46:24):
I'm doing. I ain't hurt. Nobody's just taking money.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
Yeah, I'm just scaring them over their money.

Speaker 3 (46:28):
That's it.

Speaker 4 (46:28):
I'm just taking them until somebody get hurt. Like you said, yeah,
to a tempt, you to a tempt or whatever. So
now you find yourself you're sitting there with a twenty
to life or twenty flat sentence.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
Twenty nine years, twenty nine years flat.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
That's what they're all for you. Yes, that's what you
talked your mind going through at this point. Yes, you're
twenty one years old, twenty nine years what your mind going.

Speaker 3 (46:47):
Through, Pete, I could tell you my mim was everywhere
at that time. I mean, so many conflicting thoughts into Okay, Now,
this is a numb a level of survival because it's
just thinging about the environment. This is about me surviving
this time. And I didn't. I can't sit here and

(47:11):
tell you I had a clear thought on what I
was gonna do. But one thing that did stand out
was I gotta survive. I have to survive this, and
that I think that was the catalyst towards my my decision.
And you know what, in this space, I gotta I

(47:33):
gotta make the best of this time. I'm not gonna
let this time break me down like that. And with
that I started to make certain decisions, like you know what,
I ain't got time to really go out and be
going around dudes, with with the with the mess, with
the nonsense. I gotta sit down, I gotta do some thinking.
I'm gonna work out a little bit. I gotta start

(47:54):
going to the little library trying to figure out what
it is that's that's that they did to me. I
can kind of get myself out of here. So that
to yourself, did I did to myself? Nothing?

Speaker 2 (48:07):
They just do their job.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
So I had my little my stint in the law library.
I start going to law library trying to okay, let
me find my way out. That became a pivotal place
and moment in my bed and in my personal journey.
I say that because in the law library I came
across a couple of old Muslim brothers, and they was

(48:33):
they were stoughts, they were disciplined, they were militant where
they moved, you know. And like I said, once again,
I'm I'm I'm observing. I'm observing these guys that I
need to imitate it. So okay, so what are they doing? Okay,
they getting there and they studying the law. They're looking for,
you know, the way, the key, they're looking for the key. Okay,
I need to find the key too. I need to

(48:53):
get out of here. At this time, there's not a
full thinking change. There's not a reimagining of what I
should be doing as far as growth. It's more of
how can I get out of here so I can
get back outside. What I learned being amongst these older

(49:16):
gentlemen was that if you don't have no personal discipline
and you're not mentally focused or locked in right, no
matter what we show, you ain't gonna benefit from it
because you ain't ready. And I know that because as
I went in and I said, okay, cool, let me
let me let me find out how I get a

(49:37):
four forty? What is it? What do I need to do?
How do I get this case, you know, return so
I can get back home. As I started to do that,
I start tiring of the fact that, man, this legal
stuff don't sound like it's gonna help me all this
words and all this old stuff. This ain't gonna help
me get out like I need to get out. And

(49:59):
one of the older us, Salid Deen, you know, he
saw me struggling or whatever, and I appreciate the fact
that he came over and said, what you're looking for? You?
I said, man, I don't know. I'm just looking to
find a way to fight this case. And he said, okay,
well what things on your case are you trying to fight?

(50:20):
This was his way of kind of walking me through
the thinking process, got.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
Taking you right so you could get your ship right.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
Right, And it became it became that part where he's like,
you need to start thinking, kid, because right now you
you know, you still have that thing. You're just reacting
off of what you got going on right now, of
the current things you're reacting, you're not thinking m And
so his way of saying, well, what are your charges right?

(50:52):
What did you what can you what do you see
that you can help yourself because it was done improperly
or whatever? You need to start thinking about this. And
it gave me a new vigor to look at my
case right and stuff like that. So that caused me
to spend more time in the law library.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
So this is before you even got the time.

Speaker 3 (51:14):
No, this is this is president yes you so you
cop the drift. So I got out. I took the
twenty nine because I didn't want to go to trial.
I did not want to get that time I had.
I did, I did.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
Okay, So I did doing your time in prison. Besides
fight your way out, what else you did to education
yourself and change that mindset?

Speaker 3 (51:39):
Oh? I have a lot. There was. There was There
was such a big change in my perspective and my
life that I'm laying out what happened before I got
to that point and why it became so monumental in
my in my development. So at the time I'm trying
a law thing, doing these and when I go out,

(52:04):
let me back up, because I believe I understand why
you say that. So when I first got Upstate, I
landed in green Haven Correctional Facility in December December twelfth,
nineteen ninety nine. Now, if you remember, this was right
before Y two K. So I got there right before then.

(52:26):
The place was already locked down, right, and so it
was like, let me, okay, let me start to get
into this. I will say, green Haven kind of shaped
my understanding of what real prison time was like. Green
Haven was a different animal to me, and this was
no longer green This wasn't that. This was the big

(52:47):
boys now right, and me getting there in nineteen ninety
nine and December, what was it like? Oh man, so
I'm when I a week after I got there, I
watched the guy get shaved. I mean, this guy got
he got cutting that real bad right in the in

(53:11):
the yard, right over the phone. He got done real bad.
And of course you know, I'm I'm just I see it.
I'm minding my business like this is what it is.
But to see how serious it is in this space,
like you're playing, this is grown man business. Don't come
in here playing or you're gonna stay here seeing that

(53:36):
and watching how men guys that were coming and they
didn't understand how serious it was. They were losing their lives.
That set for me like, okay, this is survival, right,
but this is also you need to figure out is
this what you really want to do for the rest
of your life? And as it was absolutely not, this

(53:58):
is definitely not. It was that when you had that,
that was that was that was the program, that was
the shift. Yeah, this was brand new. I had just
got up sat Yeah this yeah, this was this is
not where I wanted to you know that. So we
had the lockdown. Yes, they had to watch it and

(54:19):
you know we heard all the stuff. Oh yeah, the
computer is gonna reset everything. So they had us lockdown.
And I will say at this time, I'm Muslim at
this time, right, and so for me it was like
a come in, I meet the brothers. You know, one
thing that for sure is that you know when it
comes to brotherhood, when it comes to community, when it

(54:42):
comes to comrades ship. The one thing that Islam and
Muslim showed me was that that was an element ingrained
in the in the dean, that was it was paramount
in your development.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
Right.

Speaker 3 (55:00):
So now my hood hero started to change because now
when I seen these Muslims right, the way that these
brothers moving, and it wasn't just you know, just Muslim,
but these were the majority of in the individuals I
was coming in contact with, right, brothers, I surrounded myself
with starting to see that, look, you can't be just

(55:25):
trying to play for okay, let me just do this
to get out, because you're gonna get out. You're still
gonna be you. You're gonna take you with you wherever
you go. What are you doing that when you get
there you a different God, you can stay there. And
it was being around individuals like my brother right Tony

(55:45):
and other brothers that actually helped me start to slow
down and kind of do some introspection. What is it
that you want right? What's gonna make you happy? What
do you need to do or find out about yourself
to get you to that level where you can be

(56:07):
comfortable in who you are and productive as a family member,
as a father, as a man, right and stand on
your principles without having to be you know super, you
know super aggressive, you know super that you didn't have
to do that? How do you do that? And so
I'm good at being a student at that. I can sit,

(56:28):
I can observe it, I can listen and so listen
to the individuals say look, maybe you need to think
about your life this way. Maybe you need to go
to school, get an education. You know at the time,
that wasn't you know, I'm not weren't thinking about school.
You know school, Yeah, you can go to burn time,

(56:48):
you know the school building was to hang out. What
means it's gonna be there, right, I'd rather be in
the yard because that's where the money is, that's where
the life is, right. And so that became my everyday, did,
everyday thing until individuals who may have seen, you know,
have tooken a liking to me. So yo, this kid

(57:09):
isn't bad, he's all right. They would then challenge me
on my growth, right, And it was that space where
that's community. It was that space where I got to
the place and say, okay, well maybe I need to
kind of change up a little bit.

Speaker 4 (57:26):
So tell us about that transition. Tell us about that change,
what it looked like. Talk to us about it.

Speaker 3 (57:30):
What did you do? What did you do?

Speaker 5 (57:32):
No, it would prepare yourself for this life you live
in today.

Speaker 3 (57:35):
So one thing I will say is that I can
say for me in my journey that a law has
put me in situations where I had to really observe
and learn the message that was coming to me. And
so oneted to answer your question. I remember it was

(57:56):
Ramadan and I was working a mess off and I
brought back maybe like ten ten plates of food dinner.
Because anytime I come back with extra, I feed the
guys on my company. So I'm coming back and I'm
passing out food to guys that I know hadn't eaten,
and so officer yells at me, yo, take it in,

(58:18):
take it in. So mind you, I'm locked at the end.
So as I'm walking down, I'm passing out food, you know.
Right when I get to my to my cell, you know,
the officer rolls up and he's like, well, didn't I
tell you the lock in? I said, well, I'm going
in now, Well you're not moving fast enough. Well to me,
it's still I'm still me. So I'm spin on them.

(58:40):
So what you want to do. I'm here. What you
want to do? And he's like, oh, you want to fight?
Come up front. Now, we're right here. Let's do it
right here. Oh you want to fight? Man? Look you
you soft? I slam my gate. Right, it's over right,
At least I thought it was alright. I thought it
was yeah, yeah, yeah, I did kind of stuff. And

(59:06):
so as I'm sitting there, you know, my adrenaline is
pumping a little bit, and now I start to hear,
you know, walking. Okay, So for those who don't know,
whenever you hear somebody yell walking, that means police is
on the company. See who was in the company and
they walking, even mainly from the front, you know, because

(59:28):
they were say if they say walking and coming from
the back, they tell you. So I heard walking, So
immediately I know that's for me, right, So I get
the anxiety. I'm like, okay, it is what it is.
Here go, you know. And I look up and it's
about six or seven officers pull up to my gate,
and I'm not gonna sit there. Tell y'all got super brave.

(59:48):
I was just just like, oh, okay, here we go.
And so the sergey looking and said, look, we're gonna
cuff you. You out of here, you go into the box.
And I'm like, no, Y're not for to cuff me.
They ain't not gonna do that to me. And he
the look he gave me, it was like, you gonna

(01:00:11):
get coffed, right, and you're gonna come out. There's no
options to that. Yeah, And long story short, they opened
that door and they cuffed me and they took me
right on down to to the to the clinic before
they take you to the box, right. And so in

(01:00:33):
that space, thank you Bill. So in that space, right,
I will say I was worried because I heard so
much about green Haven about how yeah, you'll they'll never
find you, You'll get lost here. And so that was
my fear at the time, like man, not like basically,
they'll kill you. They'll kill you. They'll kill you. And

(01:00:55):
I felt like, not like this now, you ain't. I'm
not going out like this. No. And by the grace
of God, they got me up there, checked me out, right.
It took me upstairs. Of course, you know, they slapped
me because my head slammed me up a little bit.
I'm not you know nothing, you know that I could
say it was God damage. And I didn't die that night, right,

(01:01:16):
you just got beat up. I just got beat up
and slapped up.

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
Right, don't really speak on the right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
A whole lot of dudes go through it. Yeah. And
so when I finally got you know, in the cell
and I'm sitting there, I looked at the bars in
front of me, and then I looked at the other
bars on the window, and I started to like, I

(01:01:47):
started getting anxiety, started shaking a little bit. And I
look and I'm sitting on this blank, this empty mattress
right in this dirty, you know, this shell, and I'm like,
this can't be my life, man, this can't be it.
This can't be it. This can't be my finish moment.

(01:02:08):
Yeah right, yeah, this, So now that you had that moment,
tell us about some of the education that you know.
And it's not to say that, it's not to say
that some other stuff didn't take place. But now tell
us about the education you're quiet where you're quieted at
and then your transition out using right right, right, okay,
so through just just doing time, right, it's not easy

(01:02:33):
doing ten twenty thirty. It's not easy, right, And so
of course I went through, you know, all the trials
and tribulations, you know, whether it be you know, trying
to call family and the phone calls are like eight dollars,
twelve dollars year. Moment, those yeah, those sitting in those
in those sales at two three in the morning, like yo,

(01:02:54):
this is this, ain't it? You know, those waking up
in those moments of clarity, we were like, nah, nah,
this ain't it. It got to where I'm moving around
and from green Haven and went to the box because
they gave me a they gave me two years for
assault for exactly as I said played out. They gave

(01:03:15):
me two years for that, and I sat in the
box for two years, right, and so in that space
I did more reading, started to educate myself a little bit,
you know, start to get more say, you know, let
me let me look at education and something that I
could start to grow with. And I'm I'm, you know,
this might be my way out. This is way to

(01:03:37):
helped me. And so I started to get more into Okay,
let me start reading more. Let me start studying more.
I started a little library, so let me start studying
more cases. Because I understand the lad a little bit
better now. So I started engrossing myself and okay, let
me let me start educating myself.

Speaker 4 (01:03:52):
But did you get any formal degrees or any formal
much later later?

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
Okay, I got you. So I got I landed over time.
I landed in Eastern Eastern Correctional Facility. No, let me
go back, because actually before that, during the time I
was in I think, uh five points, I got the
five points.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
I was there.

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
I was in green An first, I went around. Since
I left green after green Haven, I went to the box.
Gave me two years in the box. I left there
for the incident with the cop I left there. Where
you went, I went, I left the box and I
went to Comstock. Okay, I went to Constant Transfer out
of Comstock German, German.

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:41):
So you go to stop where you go? Yeah, from Comstock.
I stayed there for about three years, and I went
to Sing Sing. So you get the sink Sing. What happened?
Oh man, I got the Sing Sing and you I
felt like, yeah, I felt like, oh I'm and I
felt like I was home. I'm free because it's the
same thing. You know, I'm in the city. And of

(01:05:01):
course I jumped right in right and so it was like,
you know, your people, my people are there. I'm closer
to family. So they're like, okay, good, we like this.
You on your way. And Sing Sing got me comfortable
with getting back into that old guy again, you know.

(01:05:22):
So just when I'm I'm starting to get to that
little bit of change, right and brought me back.

Speaker 4 (01:05:28):
So the mindset is starting to shift. You already made
your mind if you want to do it. But we
get to swing.

Speaker 5 (01:05:32):
It's so close to the city, so many different things happening.

Speaker 3 (01:05:35):
What happened? What takes you out of Sing Sing? How
to leave Sing Sing? It's funny. I got so comfortable
and sing sing that. One day, I'm walking into the
I'm walking to the misshole and you walk through, and
you know you're supposed to walk through the magnometer. You're
not supposed to ring anything. So I think I had
my belt on, so I wrong. So guys like, oh,

(01:05:58):
you know, just like, hey, just walk back through, then
take away you stuff out you pocket. So I go
and take the stuff out of my pocket and I
put on the counter. I walked through. I don't ring,
but mind you, he's looking like on the counter. I
didn't realize because I got so comfortable. I had a
fork in a knife sat right. There's plastic however, they're
hard plastic and the knife is about about eight inches.

(01:06:20):
So this dude is like, what is that? I said,
I bought that a commissary and go to Grammars. She
was like, you can't what that? This is a knife?
What the fuck? Like, what's going on? I'm like, it's
a plastic knie, he's selling a conversary. But dude, it's
it's he's looking at that like that can be a weapon, right,
But I'm like it's so I got the fork and

(01:06:41):
the knife, so it's like it's nothing. I just came
to eat breakfast. It was a Thursday morning. If you remember,
they used to sell French toast. They used to they
used to give you French toasts. It was a French
toast with the sausages and stuff in the morning. So
I took it for the French sauce, not thinking like, nah,
that's not gonna go overwhelmed. Long story short, don't say nothing.

(01:07:03):
Don't say that's just like, oh, let's do here. You
know whatever I'm thinking when I go back to my cell.
Next thing, I know, my cell get rushed, right, And
I told you I got comfortable. So they found and
mysell I had nine fiberglass knobs and none of them

(01:07:25):
in a tape together in a detergent box. Right that
that right there? You know that out they look and
it was just like, oh man, what are you doing? Right?
But I'm gonna say at this time, I'm bidden. That's
what it is. I'm bidden. I'm not is what it is.

(01:07:45):
There's nothing wrong with this, right, This is how I
make my money. It's also how I make sure I survive.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:07:53):
And you know when that when they was like this,
dude's got nine knobs. Oh yeah, you out of here, Jack,
this same you ain't staying here with that? So where
you go back there? So where do you go? You
go after that? So they gave me. I got, I
got a year and a half and a yeah, back
back to the back right, and they sent me. I

(01:08:15):
went back up state and from there I went that.
I went down to Firepoint and stayed there for a
little bit. And from there I wound up coming going
to Easton.

Speaker 5 (01:08:24):
And so what happens at Easton it's education wise.

Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
So and Easton I got, I got into the to
the industry. I'm making my industry money. I'm working for me.
That was cool. I'm cool with that, making a little money.
I'm going to situated at this time, you know, Easton
was comfortable.

Speaker 2 (01:08:42):
It was one of the places already.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
At this time. I say, I haven't twenty years, about
about twenty about about simwhere rand, but you had fifteen
to twenty years. So I'm I've been civil situated already.
That's so I'm working and everything, and so now you know, uh,
the brother brother sim comes to he comes to the jail. Yeah,

(01:09:06):
and so he questioned me, like why are you not
in school? You know, why are you not trying to
get your degree. And I told him, I said, man,
I'm working, you know, I'm you know, I'm in the industry.
I'm getting my money and I'm doing what i'm doing.
And you know, the look he gave me was like,
what are you talking about? What do you mean? You
in the industry and you comfortable with that? And at

(01:09:28):
first I was like, well, I'm good, I'm situated, I'm comfortable,
I'm comfortable. I'm good. I didn't realize what he was doing.
It was a challenge, like what are you doing to
better yourself? Like what are you doing to bring out
you know that bigger you got better you? Right? And

(01:09:50):
it started to sink in when I started seeing, you know,
him and a few of the other guys that were
in college in school, how their conversations were so profound, Right,
they were able to relate current events as it applied
to me and others, right. And it was that thing

(01:10:11):
I said, I like that. I loved the fact that see,
you know, us as as as men being able to dialogue,
to be able to not just express ideas, but to
make them relative to not just your life, but to community,
to your community. And so I had to rethink, Okay,

(01:10:36):
you know what I need to be in. I need
to get in school. And in Eastern they had Bard College.
Bard College was the college in Eastern that for me
was the choice. So that, of course they have other
colleges there, but for me, Bard was the one where

(01:10:56):
most of my guys, my friends, they were Bard students.
And I remember I tried to get into board a
few times. I write my essay, you know, hope for
an interview, but I never got in. So what made
it a defining moment was one day when they were
doing the interviews to get in, I did my essay

(01:11:18):
waiting for my interview. I never got called. So I
was just so happened. I was already in the school
building taking a T four C class. I was thinking
for a change, I was taking the class already. So
so I see the brother in the hallways like, Yo,
what's happening. You got your interview. I was like, nah,
they didn't call me. So he's like, yo, man, this

(01:11:41):
is it. After these interviews, people's going to get in
and like you need to. You need to get yourself
involved in this school. So look, I said, all right,
you know what I'm gonna do it I got to
get in that school. So it was I'm gonna tell
you it was. It was something. It was it and
this story is was talked about after. So he said, look,

(01:12:06):
the last dude's in there. Now you need to go
in there and you gotta speak to them, right, And
so I was ready. I said, that's what it is.
So when the guy, uh, the last guy that was
in there, when he walked out, right, I look up
and it gave me to look go back im. Yeah.

(01:12:28):
And I walk in the room and so we have
h Max who is Max Killer and uh, what's her name?
Megan Megan Callahan? Excuse me, they're doing their interviews. And
I walk in and I say, well, you know, excuse me. Listen,

(01:12:50):
my name is Clayton Jones and I'd like to have
a serious conversation with you. And they're like, well, okay,
well you're here for the interview. I said, I wasn't
chosen for the interview, but I felt that I should
have been. So they said, well, sit down, and I
sit down, and I was real, yeah, God is good.
And I was very honest and open with him. I

(01:13:11):
spoke from the heart, I tell it. Pe I said, look,
I've watched so many of my friends get into this school,
and I watch education change their lives. And I've been
trying to get into this school for some years now,
and I want to know what is it that you're

(01:13:31):
looking for? Because I'm watching my friends change their lives
and become better people and I want that, but you're
not giving me the opportunity. So I'm asking you what
are you looking for? Because I want in. I want
a part of that thing that I see my friends
getting that's changing them. I'm hearing, you know, old drug

(01:13:52):
dealers and old Roberts have conversations about structural violence and
all these geopolitical arguments that I didn't even think they
underst he stood a new at least I didn't. And
so I'm watching my friends having these dialogues and I said,
I want that, So what is it that you need
for me to get in here to do that? And

(01:14:12):
they looked at each other. He said, what's your name,
Clayson Jones? They said, okay, mister Jones, breach all right.
And so it around the time it was like to
go back. So the officer comes in. He's like, listen,
you know, you guys gotta go whatever. So I had
to leave, and about two or three weeks later, I
got the letter saying I was in. I was in.

Speaker 4 (01:14:33):
I want to add to that though, because he got
me thinking about it, right, and I'm getting a little
chills thinking about it.

Speaker 5 (01:14:39):
He had been MAX classification.

Speaker 4 (01:14:42):
For like at this time he might have had like
twenty three years and twenty four years in. He was MAX,
never been to a medium, and we got cald with
the knives, the staff, all that stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:14:54):
They let him in.

Speaker 4 (01:14:56):
Like two three weeks later, they let him into the
school that saturday, told him you want a draft.

Speaker 5 (01:15:02):
They made a medium and sent them to a medium.

Speaker 3 (01:15:05):
Push me out.

Speaker 4 (01:15:06):
And and I'm a finished part of because yo, this
is like, this is serious. Maybe a week before he
went home and were released back to the street, he
got his associate's degree. Now, talk to me, talk about
that transit because I remember it. Remember we was talking
about it. Yes, yes, just wrap it up, kind of

(01:15:29):
talk about what got you right.

Speaker 3 (01:15:31):
Like and who you are today? So now I just
want you to you know, so he transack transitioned back
to the So are you today?

Speaker 2 (01:15:39):
So you did the whole twenty nine?

Speaker 3 (01:15:42):
Yeah? Yeah, So with the twenty nine I want to do,
I did twenty four. So what they did was because
they felt that the I don't know if it was
a repugnan sentence or whatever, the five years, they put
it into the with the twenty four the post release
to make it twenty nine, right, So at first it
was gonna twenty nine with five, when they said, no,

(01:16:02):
you can't do that because it's outside of the centening range.
So they took the five and put it into the
twenty nine with twenty four. So I wented twenty four
years straight straight and came home and oh and then
let's talk about it, okay. So you know, as as
the brother point out, I got my associates degree right

(01:16:22):
before I came out. So I felt real good about that,
real good about that. And thank you. I appreciate that.
You deserve it. Man, appreciate that.

Speaker 5 (01:16:32):
Definitely gonna defend you, right, So you make your transition out.

Speaker 3 (01:16:36):
Yeah, and so now when I do make my transition out,
my perspective, my thinking different, my why, my purpose different
because now my my structure, the way that I look
at life, the way that I value my own and
everything else, I see it differently. Fact, So immediately when

(01:17:02):
I got back, you know, My my goal was not
to get myself back into the mix. Now it's like, okay,
I'm home. How do I establish myself right, excuse me,
in the right way? Right, become more productive, get a
job as well as you know, reconnect with my family

(01:17:25):
and everything else. Right. But it's about being on the
right side of of of of the law right in
society and society.

Speaker 2 (01:17:37):
Again right, right.

Speaker 3 (01:17:39):
It was in your twenty nine years right, right, twenty
four years, I mean like right, And it felt amazing
finally getting out after all of that time. I mean,
anyone who can say that they've done a substantial amount
of time away that time home. I said to the

(01:18:04):
brother of one time that it is untranslatable. Yeah, and
I say that because that sense of I want to
say peace, or that exhilaration that you get knowing that
I made it through. I'm here now, right, it feels wonderful.

(01:18:30):
And of course, you know, you know, life starts happening,
you know, you start seeing old friends, old family, stuff
like that. But for me, my my primary purpose was
to build my build myself a nice comfortable space and
life where I could continue growing and develop. Right, and

(01:18:53):
also at this time kind of reach back so I
never lost factor what that there were in the visuals
who helped me kind of shape my thinking how I
view things in the world. So what I what I
did and what I do now is I reach back
by helping individuals when they return home to system in housing.

(01:19:17):
So what's your title, right? So I am a housing
coordinator with BPI Bard College. I assist individuals many alums
coming out with finding housing. Right. I have a six
week training course that we do U CAT Connected where
we teach alums about tech because many individuals like myself,

(01:19:42):
you know, I when I went in, I think the
last thing I had was like a Nokia phone right
right before the flip around the flips, So that's the
last thing I remember about phones and stuff like that.
So I had to learn a lot about tech getting out.
So that's something that we teach Wellness, Career, deve Development housing.

(01:20:02):
It's because I understand as a prime it's the primary
issue for many of us coming home is that you
need structure and right and you need to have a
welcoming source of not just contacts but community that's gonna
assist you in your your resocialization. How long you've been home,

(01:20:24):
I've been home now for three and a half years,
and I will say that it's been very, very rewarding
for me to reach back to help other individuals. It's
been satisfying because now I have my purpose to assist

(01:20:45):
people right to who I feel, you know, need more help,
right than someone who doesn't know what it's like to
have to be justice impacted. Right. I understand that it
takes some for some some some special or should I
say specialized right assistance in the sense that if I

(01:21:08):
have for me where I may have been away for
twenty four years, right, I need my my resources to
be understanding that I'm not just looking at an incarceration socially,
but it's also incarceration of my my my expertise. Right,

(01:21:29):
I may not have a marketable scale. All these things,
all of these things are are symptoms that I look
to come back and to assist people with. So this
is why when alums get here, my job is to
make sure that I'm going to put you in the
best footing to win.

Speaker 4 (01:21:48):
So if I asked you what would be like you know,
you know, I mean dynamic podcast, dynamic interview. You shared
a lot about your life, you shit about you know,
your your ups, your downs, and so on and so forth.
If you have one message to share with the young
people out there and older people out there who are
returning back to society, what would be that message?

Speaker 3 (01:22:11):
What would you say to the people? Yeah, I appreciate that.
That's big. What would you look them?

Speaker 2 (01:22:16):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:22:20):
I like that. So the most important message that I
would like to send to the youth and those individuals
who find themselves out in the lifestyle, understand this. You
can choose any path that you want to choose to

(01:22:41):
live your life, but understand, in this network or this
labyrinth that you live in with other individuals, right when
you live your life in a space that isn't counterproductive
to everyone or else around you, it's not going to
last long. And let me simplify that. I understand that

(01:23:04):
you lifeing on your level and for many of the
younger generation, I kind of my heart goes out to
y'all because you're forced to live a lifestyle that many
of you may not agree with and may actually confront right,
But the message to take away is that you need

(01:23:25):
to find You need to find your purpose, your why,
and when your defining moment comes, always choose the better.
You always choose to develop because if you follow along
my story, I understood that I was doing what I

(01:23:50):
was doing because that's what I chose. And when individuals
will come to me with correction, I never turned it down.
I may not have followed it, but I turned it down.
And I want to say this to you. Understand that
your life is very valuable. It's extremely the most valuable

(01:24:10):
thing you have. Take it from somebody and other guys
who has been away for twenty plus years. Your life
is so much bigger when you gear it towards assisting
people and helping others. I get gratitude. I'm helped. I

(01:24:31):
am Excuse me, I'm happy knowing that I help somebody
to better their life. That's my wife.

Speaker 4 (01:24:39):
Appreciate you give your shout outs. Who you want to
shout out, give a shout out. Let's wrap it up
because it's a great interview. Appreciate you for showing.

Speaker 3 (01:24:47):
I think I thank the Dog in the Yard podcast.
As I said before, you guys are doing amazing. You know,
you're definitely giving voice to the voiceless, right and it's
it's it's it's very comforting seeing you guys come and
create a platform for guys to get up and speak
to individuals who are similar situated just like us, right

(01:25:12):
to say, look, come talk to the people telling me
your story, because there's somebody who can relate to you
and say, well that that's me, that guy's me day right, Definitely,
So I want to definitely give y'all guys the big
shout out, man. I love what y'all got going on.
Of course, shout out to you know, my BPI family.
You know, we'll continue to reach back and to help

(01:25:35):
people and to if you looking to get a college degree,
you know we're here for you. Definitely get that it
can put you in some pretty nice situations, right. Most
definitely shout out to my family for being able to
to putting up with you know, to putting up with
all the craziness, right. And I definitely want to you know,

(01:25:58):
for the most part, I want to definitely send a
thank you to you know, my brother you know, Tony
and the rest of them, To the Muslims. Definitely to
you as well. Be loved all right, because you guys
remind me of why I do what I do. Like
the same way you're using your platform to help raise
people up and reach people's right with your voice. I'm

(01:26:21):
doing it in my space, trying to help reach back
and help people. So I love that. Man. Well, we're
here for you, BX Tone. Dog in the Yard, my bro.

Speaker 2 (01:26:32):
But you know what it is. We're here.

Speaker 4 (01:26:34):
And with that being said, up with Up, with Up,
it's your boy, b X Tone. Welcome back to Dog
in the Yard. Today we have Abdulah TV came through,
went through some trials and tribulations that twenty four years
out of twenty nine years. Again, he never thought he'd
do that much time, but during that time he had
a mindset shift and he changed. Today he's a public

(01:26:57):
health professional in society. He's a housing specs for BP.
I bought Prison Initiative Bard College and he putting that
work in Dog in the Yard podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:27:06):
It's your boy, b X Tone.

Speaker 7 (01:27:11):
Dog in the Yard is about second chances. I bring
those same opportunities to real estate, not only here in
Tampa Bay, but throughout the entire United States. I'm Gustavo
Torres with Florida's first Choice Realty. I make real estate
move simple and stress free, helping families and individuals like
yourself find stability through buying, selling, or investing. From the

(01:27:35):
yard straight to your front yard.

Speaker 3 (01:27:40):
A minute. The band was fail because of my chan
Stay out of my leg playing my chard and be
your friend.

Speaker 2 (01:27:53):
Yeah, ain't cooking you a loading and Clinton in your
frame thing.

Speaker 3 (01:27:59):
Goofy join the Moost to a fan bet

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