Interview Don Basham 3-22-84

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Episode Transcript

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Okay, number one on the list, and we'll just take these pretty much
in sequence on that continue to heareven today consistently how people say, you
know, how did you know whatI needed to hear? I got my
copy of the magazine and it justspoke to the thing that I really needed
a large part in my ministry teachingon that subject. We've had some significant

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issues that dealt with that, somesignificant articles I remember the do remember the
date, but that one particular issuewhere we UH did the whole issue on
spiritual warfare that it had an amazinglypowerful impact on the readership, and the
magazine went into reprints and our mailvolume jumped tremendously. As you may remember
about that, It's like God usedthat particular issue to meet people's needs at

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a time, and it stimulated tremthis correspondence and vaulted our mail level into
a much higher realm than I don'tthink it ever came back quite to what
it was before. It was likethat particular issue had had UH great significance.
And more recently, in the lastyear or so, I've enjoyed doing

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the UH column at the back ofthe magazine on sharing a personal viewpoint and
with a deliberate intent to take fairlysimple truths but use them to couch them
in a way to deliberately inspire peopleto give an inspirational impact to the magazine.
I really enjoy doing that. Itexercises me from standpoint of my writing

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ability, and also I came toit out of a sense of awareness in
the last few years that the magazinecould stand to be more inspirational. We
always have such a heavy emphasis onscriptural truth, which is good. It
is a teaching magazine, but themeat of the teaching needs to be served
up I think with a garnish thatmakes it even more palatable, which is

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and I think uh inspiration and testimonythat we had from time that inspiration is
one of the things that we canuse to do that. And I've been
gratified by the response to the lastfew months when I've been doing I've gotten
some very lovely and touching letters frompeople that indicate to me that it's a

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helpful page. Did you look backover the years, what are some of
the incidents that you recollect that areparticularly in using or we're touching, We're
good to you, insert or twoor three. One is I think Derek's
already mentioned the fact that how casuallythe magazine began when we were first moved

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to Florida back in sixty eight,sixty nine, I guess it was sixty
nine the magazine began, wasn't itagain? I'll desire the man who was
kind of heading up a local ministrythere that was called a Holy Spirit Teaching
Mission that sponsoring conferences at which wewere speaking, he had the desire to
get and we shared that with him, to see our teaching get into printed

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form on a regular basis. Andso that was the basis for which we
got together about the magazine, andDerek shared how casually that first meeting and
how casual that first meeting was.We spent most of the time talking about
the format, about whether it wasto have two or three columns per page.
Discussed some other things too, butit was just none of us had
any idea, I think at thattime the impact that the magazine would have,

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or its lasting impact, because mostreligious publications are very short lived.
I mean they spring up around theman's ministry or a few people's ministry,
and there's a tremendous attrition rate.There's a tremendous death rate with religious publications.
Some go a few months or afew years, and then they change
or they're absorbed. I don't thinkany of us in those early days had

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any idea the way the magazine wouldgrow and be sustained through the years and
would would continue. So that wasa kind of amusing And then a couple
of years later when there was acrisis in the work there in Fort Lauderdale
and the man who shared the originalvision for the magazine dropped out of ministry,
and there were a lot of thingsundergoing change, the teachers, the

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four office. It was Derek andBob and Charles and Aren't that time just
had agreed probably it would be lessthe best thing just to let the magazine
die. We'd felt that it hadcome to a logical end because of the
change and things like they're change inministry down there. And the amazing thing
was it was like God wouldn't letit die. We couldn't kill it.

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I mean, the interest stay die. The man for it lasted, and
it's just like even though we madea decision not to continue it, it's
like God just overruled that decision,which in the years since it made us
all more aware of the sovereignty ofGod in the whole thing, that we
really believed the magazine was born outof the sovereignty of God. And I
think that's all the more noticeable inthe fact that we didn't feel at the

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time it began any great sense ofpowerful divine revelation that this was to be
the instrument that God would use tohelp mature the charismatic move in the church.
But it's obvious that God had plansfor it, because while we tried
to let it go and tried tolet it die, it's like God just

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pumped new life into it and keptit going. And so after a few
months we realized what was happening,and at that point then instead of trying
to disassociate ourselves from it, wepicked it up and began to take responsibility
for it once again. Another indication, kind of humorous indication of the sovereignty
of God in linking us with themagazine was that within a matter of months

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after it first came out, aswe and we were all in traveling teaching
ministries, then all had our separateministries and mailing lists and so forth.
But people begin to identify us becausewe you know, we encourage people to
read the magazine and we were writingfor it, but they begin to identify
us as employees of New Wine,that we worked for the magazine, and
we went through months of trying todissuade people at no, we have our

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own ministries. Now we write forthe magazine and we want you to get
it, but we don't work forNew Wine. And one of the interesting
things was that Charles Simpson was stillpreaching here in Alabama, the bay View
Hights Baptist Church, and he wasin charismatic ministry too. In some places
where we'd go and travel, he'dbe introduced not as the minister of bay
View Church, but as as oneof the men that worked for New Wine
magazine. So it was humorus andkind of frustrating at the time, but

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since then we've come to see againthat that was God, that God was
identifying us very strongly, waiting usthrough the magazine. And so after a
while we came to see that thatwasn't something to be particularly discouraged about,
but rather, in a way,it was kind of a compliment the fact
that people were receiving such blessing andbenefit from the magazine that it became,

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even though we didn't intend it tobe that it became quote, our magazine,
and we worked for it. Andthat's of course later on it was
true in my case because I becamethe editor of the magazine and went on
salary for a period of time asas the editor. But that was never
true of the other men. Butagain that was an evidence of the UH,
the the identific strong identification that theHoly Spirit gave us with the magazine.

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That just sort of linked us withit. It's like we were doomed
to be the ones that ran themagazine, and we've accepted that since in
the years since, very gladly.Another funny thing that comes to mind wash
As you know, one of thethings that we've done is, as various
other ones of us have written books, you've published a chapter in the book

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in the magazine, a chapter fromthe new book as a part of the
introducing of the book as a partof the ministry of the magazine. And
UH, the little controversial book Iwrote some years ago called True and False
Prophets. We did a h aninitial chapter out of that book in the
magazine and got an immediate rather violentresponse from a number of people because the

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thesis of the book was that aman is in God's side is a true
or false prophet based not on hismessage, primarily upon his character. And
that's been very hard for people torealize that if a man can be an
immoral man but still have a powerfulministry. And I was making that point
in the chapter that was in thebook, and there was a very negative

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response from a few people. Onein particular man wrote back not only objecting
to what I said, but wantedto cancel his subscription to the magazine because
of he didn't like that chapter.And he says, I not only want
you to cancel my subscription, Iwant you to burn my next issue,
which was about as wild a negativereaction as I ever got, but it

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was kind of humorous. And thewhole book, the entire book True and
False Prophets, proved controversial. I'vebeen blessed and damned both through the mail
through the years by people to betremendously helped by it, and by a
few others who found it very difficultto accept the message that was in it.
But that's some of the the humorousthings that I called. I recall,

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did you give some of the backgroundon how the Holy Spirit is a
legend to address the issues that youmentioned as being significant, the ones that
do how maybe some of the progressionof how God led you into some of
the areas that had been addressed inLatu. Well, I think God gives

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us all strengths and ministries, andthat are, you know, a part
of our calling. We're all calleda ministry. Calling is important, but
I think we are called in stwo specific kinds of ministries. In the
beginning, my ministry was largely uhuh. After I left the denominational church
and got into charismatic movement by primaryministry and emphasized two things. One was

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on the baptism and gives the HolySpirit. I was uh. God gave
me a tremendous effect activeness and teachingon that subject, especially on through teaching
helping people to receive the Baptism andthe Holy Spirit. And so it was
out of that what God called meto do, and out of my doing
it that the messages that I taughton those subjects began to circulate, and

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of course some of the things thatI taught in the magazine reflected that.
Then I shared at times on thelife of faith, because that in the
early years of my Tenerant ministry,we were totally dependent on God, for
had no salary or anything, andwe had some amazing experiences about God's provision,
and I found myself sharing on thattheme, which was encouraging to people,

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and some of those things got intothe magazine. I'd have to say,
basically, I think that each oneof us. The same thing was
true about demonology. I didn't wantI didn't volunteer for the Deliverance ministry.
People used to say to me,how did you get into deliverance, And
I'd say I got into it.I was drugg into it with my heels
dragon dug in. I didn't wantto that ministry. I didn't feel I
was the type for it, butnevertheless, by God's choice, I found

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myself in it and doing it andthen later writing about it. So I
think, more than perhaps and somepeople realize, I think we are how
shall I say, we are thevictims of our own calling, as it
were, concerning the kind of thingsthat we share and teach, and that,
of course is in large part responsiblefor the sort of emphasies that the

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various teachers and ministries have made inthe magazine. The things that we share
there come out of the strengths ofour own calling. How's God used some
of the more controversial areas you've tackledto give you a greater understanding of His
grace and to develop and mature youand the ministry. Well, one of

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the things that you become mindful ofin a charismatic ministry when that ministry is
powerful in the sense of dramatic thingshappening, like praying for people and there
slain in the spirit are healed,are casting out demons, and you see
dramatic manifestations and people change. There'sboth a blessing and a danger in that.

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One is that there is a dangerthat some men have fallen prey to
that you get an elevated opinion ofyourself, is that if somehow, by
your own virtue or worth, Godhas bestowed that ministry upon you, which
is a dangerous assumption, of course. I think really the other contrasting thing
has been has happened more to us, and that is you have a sense

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of awe that here you are afairly ordinary person that God suddenly has has
given an extraordinary responsibility to or asgifted in a particular way. And so
I'd say it make I think thedeliverance ministry and testimony to answered prayer and
to see things like maybe one hundredand fifty people get the baptism in the

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Holy Spirit at one time, orsee a mass group of people delivered from
demons at one time, gives youan awesome sense of the grace of God
in your life. Is that reallythere's no way you could earn that,
or no way that you could anticipatethat it was by God's sovereign choice.
And I think through the years that'shelped sustain me in some rather difficult times,

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the realization that I'm the subject ofGod's choice. And also it fills
you with a sense of responsibility tobe faithful to that and sort of keeps
your humble when you realize lots oftimes that you don't even though you're not
living as well spiritually as you mightbe, or you may be in a
time of depression or a time inwhich you're not walking real close to the

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Lord personally, you go in throughsome personal valley or something like that.
As we all go through. Yetthat ministry, that anointing remains and that's
a kind of an awesome, frighteningthing. It makes you aware of how
you know, of the awesomeness ofthe responsibility you have before God, that
God would continue to use the ministryhe's given you to bless people with,

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even if you may not be ina very good position in the Lord yourself.
So I think that awareness has helpedme understand, and it's the thing
I tried to share in True andFalse prophets, that the ministry or the
annoyting is always God's and that there'sa difference between the ministry and the man.
And if you understand that, it'llkeep you humble to realize that it's

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not because you're better than anybody elseor more noble, or because you're wiser
or more deserving than anyone else.Says simply that God decided to use you
and to choose you for his use, And for me, that's been a
very humbling thing through the years.I also think that controversy is that we
have gone through through deliverance or thecontroversy over authority and submission and once later

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became known as a discipleship controversy,where we suffered a lot of criticism and
misunderstanding, and I think fairly successfully, whether whether it fairly successfully without retaliation.
We've never been felt free in Godto retaliate against our attackers, although
an awful lot of people through theyear seemed to have felt free to attack

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us. And I think that that'san evidence of God's grace on our lives,
that he sustained us through those timesand enabled us to go ahead and
do that which we're called to do, rather than to turn and try to
answer our attackers or to attack them. And I don't think we could do
that without the grace of God.There's a tendency when somebody's you know,
chewing great chunks out of you,to want to turn and nibble a bit

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on them, and it takes God'sgrace to keep you from doing that.
And I think, especially in thelast couple of years, since we've come
through those controversies, that we seethere's a pretty great appreciation on many people's
part of many people across the bodyof Christ that that that we did refrain
from doing that, that we didn'tyou get involved in an all out struggle

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to try to attack our attackers orto try to defend ourselves. And I
think that's to our credit, butit's mostly to the credit of the grace
of God or gave us the patienceand grace to endure. Uh, those
attacks without retaliation. You've really answeredparcel of the next question about the fruit

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that you've seen, person or anyother fruit that you've seen coming out of
the willingness and pressed all to aboutthat, Yeah, I think we would
all say, I have to beaware. And again it keeps your humble
at to realize that. Uh.In the ministry, I realized this years
ago when I was still in thedenominational pastorate, that the churches that I

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am ministered in reflected not only mystrengths, but my weaknesses as well.
Uh. In those areas where Iwas strong, the church prospered. In
those areas of ministry where I wasweak, the church. You know,
I faltered, and I used toaggravate me. I wanted the church to
be strong in those areas where Icouldn't provide leadership, and it just couldn't

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happen. So my church, thepeople I ministered too, became a reflection
of my own ministry, and that'skind of humble and painful. I think
the same thing has been true inour ministry, through the magazine, in
our own ministries. That is thatwe have seen a lot of good fruit,
lasting fruit come as the result ofthe ministries that God has given us

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that we've shared publicly through the spokenword and through the written word and through
the magazine. But we've suffered tooby the mistakes that we made, as
every person suffers. That there aresome things. I think there's some articles
that I would have written differently ifI had them to write over again,
And I think that's true of allof us. There were some things that
we would teach differently now because we'vegained some maturity and lost some of our

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perhaps some of our zeal that wasmisguided. So we've had to live with
the fruit of our mistakes. Everyonedoes. There was a time when I
over emphasized demonology, and my seemedto be something of over over emphasis.
God was working with me in thattime and it was a strong emphasis.
But I know there was a timethat I neglected other things I shouldn't have

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neglected, and I bore down toohard on that ministry, and so I
made some people deemon conscious more thanthey should have been. In other words,
they got their lives got somewhat outof proportion, even as my own
did. And I think anybody,any minister whose honest has to admit that
same thing on the that that happens. I think one of the things that
sort of miss me about our detractorsas if that when they write against certain

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things that we've said and done,it's as if they sound as if they
themselves never made mistakes, or theynever had to grapple with the unfortunate results
of where they failed. Well,at least we tried to do that.
We haven't tried to run from fromour mistakes, and especially in matters of
personal relationships, we tried to hangin there and redeem the things, and

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work through, redeem people, andwork through those difficult times when perhaps through
inadequacy, sometimes maybe through error,but more more often I think our mistakes
have been out of inadequacy rather thanand out of ineptness, rather than any
intent to deceive or to lead peopleastray, are to are to voice ourselves

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off on people in some way asbeing some kind of experts. So I
think all of us would agree thatthat were the things that we apologize for
and or sorry for for our failures. But we're extremely grateful for the lasting
fruit of our ministries, and that'sthe thing that keeps us going. I
think there's been a lot of lastingfruit through the magazine, and that we

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can be grateful that we've got people, as you know, that have been
readers from the very beginning, andwe've got thousands of readers have been readers
for ten ye are more. Thereis a lot of turnover, as there
is with any publication, but thosepeople wouldn't still be our champions and wouldn't
still be our readers if they hadn'tbeen blessed through the years. And so

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I think our successes in God havefar outweighed our failures. And the failures
keep you humble, but the successesmake you grateful. How would you characterize
the change this taking place right downthe charismatic renewal and over the past few
years that seems to be changing.So what, well, two things,

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just very briefly, I don't wantto get along winded about, but I'd
say there is a tendency in thechurch that is charismatic, or in the
part of the churches. I thinkthere is a some tendency toward maturity now
handling the gifts more responsibly in realizingthat the gifts aren't of the spirit,
the miracles of God aren't the answerto everything. And there it seems to

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be a growing emphasis on the fruitof the spirit, which I think it's
good, and people who only operatedwith the gifts and who were only attracted
by the gifts tended to fall away. Another thing I've seen is that there
is seems to be the direction seemsto be away from parachurch groups. In

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the early days of the charismatic movement, so many groups an organization sprung up
that were outside the church, andthere are still a number of those,
but I think the emphasis is moreand more to take the charismatic movement into
the church itself, into the churchesthat exist, and there's not the emphasis
there's used to be on the givingup on the institutional church and doing something

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totally new. It's whether we're seeingthat God never was in the business of
doing anything with starting churches, actually, and that's still what he's doing,
and he's renewing churches. And therewas a time when I would have thought,
well, that's not the way itought to go. Because all of
us were affected somewhat by the comeout of you know, to come out
emphasis. You know, let's goout and do our own thing. That

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was part of the freedom of theearly days of the Charismatic Renewal, But
there was also irresponsibility in that.And I think there has been a tendency,
a trend in the Holy Spirit forus to bring what God is doing
back into the church. Are seeingit rooted and anchored in the church.
Are in establishing new churches that arefull orbed churches with all the ministries and

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sacraments and so forth, rather thanjust to try to do our own thing
outside the historic church. That's good, It's maybe a redundant question. What
would you characterize the changes taking placesone from character, one from charisma to
character. Yeah, I think that'sa kind of a slogan type way of

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saying it. That in the midsixties and early seventies, when they're the
what I call the Charismatic Renewal wassort of at its peak more or less,
where it was seemed to be thestrongest in evidence and still very fresh.
There was a major emphasis on themiraculous, on the gifts and ministries
and because and that's what God wasstressing at that time. That doesn't mean

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it was wrong. But anytime there'sa tremendous emphasis by God on one thing,
other things languish. I mean,God doesn't concentrate on everything at once.
So in that great enthusiasm for thecharismatic manifestations of the Church, there
was far much more emphasis on giftsthan there was on fruit, and more

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on charisma than there was on character. And I think it was inevitable as
the move continued, that if itwas to last, there would have to
come the stabilizing a depth of characterin order to sustain it, or else
it would all be frittered away.And I don't think God ever intended it.
Certainly didn't intend it, and doesnot intend those things to be to

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take the place of character. It'snot a question of gifts are fruit.
It's a question of gifts and fruit. The gifts are exciting because they appear
instantly and they are totally given byGod, and everybody gets all excited.
Why fruit takes time to produce.Maturity takes time to produce. But we've
been grateful through the years that Godhas given us through the magazine a call

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I think to help Christians into maturity, not just to stress the miraculous,
but to give a balanced teaching.I remember there was a time when our
slogan for the magazine was that itwas intended to help Christians to maturity.
And I think basically that is stillour purpose, to give the kind of
teaching that can help Christians grow up. Where haven't been primarily a testimony magazine,

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are an evangelistic magazine. We havebeen a magazine designed to give truth
to Christians to help them grow tomaturity. What trends do you see developing
right now that would indicate areas Godwants us to address as Christians? What
do you see some of those keyareas well? Probably are the guys who

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are traveling more than I am thesedays might be able to speak more to
that than I am. But thereare some things that are obvious. One
is, I think, is thecontinual continuing desire for the Lord, on
the part of the Lord, tomature Christians, to bring them to maturity.
And I think there's a growing emphasisand about an understanding of the need
for holiness, for purity in thechurch. I think there's uh we were

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aware that there's a lawful The charismaticmovement was so powerful it swept in so
many tens of thousands of people intoa new dimension in the lord. As
like a flood coming down, youknow, like a river that's risen to
flood stage. A great quantity ofwater comes rushing down between the banks.
But with that great on rushing flood, all kinds of trash and stuff is

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swept into the current. A lotof things got swept up that people had.
There are a lot of the charismaticrenewal came with all of that power
with no emphasis on repentance, whichis a glaring omission. Uh. People,
A lot of people didn't really thoroughlyrepent of their sins. They didn't
have any they didn't come under anykind of conviction for uh, you know,

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immoral lives and this sort of thingthey got. They just got swept
up into that supernatural thing. Uhand uh, I think in recent years
God's begin to sort all that out, to realize that you can't just maintain
an emphasis on the miraculous while youignore morals. And the truth is miracles
don't bring maturity, and uh,you know, deliverance doesn't necessarily bring discipline.

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And I think there are those whichthat's something that God is emphasizing not
that the miraculous is to leave.That's that standard New Testament Christianity. For
many years we didn't have that,and we're all grateful if that's there.
But I think there is an indicationfirst of all, for maturing and making
the church more holy. Another thingis the church turning outward in the sense

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of getting involved. How I sayit, I think there's a good diminishing
distinction between sacred and secular. Ithink Christians all over are being galvanized into
an awareness that the Christian faith hassomething to say to the world, not
just in sense of evangelism, butin the sense of kingdom building, of
establishing the Kingdom of God on earth. That God is not just God of

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the Church, He's God of thewhole earth. Jesus is not just the
Lord of the Church, he isthe Lord of the Earth, and that
the Kingdom. When we speak ofthe Kingdom of God coming earth, we're
not just talking about an organizing churchthat's going to spread over the earth.
We're talking about all of mankind comingunder the rule of God. And I
think this kingdom consciousness we just comeout of our teaching on principles of Kingdom

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principles of covenant, principles of rulingand authority. And once we began to
minister and to teach and write inthe magazine about a rulership and about rule
and authority and submission, things beganto come clear to us that that the
basic struggle in the body of Christ, the basic struggle in the earth,
there's who's going to rule? IsGod going to rule the earth? There's

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a devil going to rule the earth. And so we've begun then to tackle
principalities and powers through our teaching,and inevitably have led people to begin to
get involved in civic affairs and citiesat the state level and the national level.
Church has kind of come out ofits shell and is beginning to address
national and world issues and to speakto those things prophetically, much to the

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consternation of certain politicians and other peoplewho feel that the you know, they
want to keep religion pigeonholed, andit's it's a kind of a I noticed
that in recent years there's so muchmore being said in the media about the
churches. They call it, oftentimesthe interference of the church in politics or
things like that, when I thinkit'd be more accurate to say it would

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be for us to say would bethe contribution that the church is beginning to
make to life and to secular life. I think God's determined to blot out
that distinction that once we have akingdom consciousness, everything is sacred. Economics
is sacred, politics is sacred.You know, I'm recreation is sacred.
Uh, government is sacred to allof it is to be under the rule

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of God. So I think we'rebeginning to speak, obviously speak in those
areas. Two particular areas of receivingattention in a number of circles are the
talk of a new harvest or evangelism, and also from the order. To
give your thoughts on these two areas, I'll just observe that the evangelism seems

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to be taken place. We're notprimarily evangelists, although uh we're happy over
certainly over that uh, that successthat seems to be coming. I've more
been more personally directly involved in thething about unity because we feel certain excitement
and gratitude that the basis for unity, which I think has to come first

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among leaders. I don't believe it'sever been primarily the problem of basis of
late Christians getting along with one another. The controversy has always laid with the
leaders their divisions, and they're protectingtheir own bailiwicks and their own theologies.
And there's been a very refreshing andencouraging a change among many, many leaders,
significant leaders, especially in what wecall the charismatic renewal, in that

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they don't want to fight anymore.It's like the fight's been knocked out of
an awful lot of men. Oneof the things I was at this idea
exchanged to or three years ago,said an annual meeting of leaders of large
churches, primarily charismatic or Pentecostal churchesthat meets each year, and also men
in national ministries and international ministry,so we're invited every year. But first

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year or two it met, therewas an awful lot of antagonism, an
awful lot of bickering, an awfullot of attack against us or an attack
against the faith teachers and men.But then the next year I noticed that
would be about three years ago nowor rather profound change and that men,
it was like a progression. Firsteverybody wanted to attack everybody else, and
then the next year everybody was feelingwounded about being attacked and wondering why those

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attacks had to go on, Whydo people try to discredit my ministry?
Why do they why don't they likethis or that? And then on beyond
that the next year, beyond theWounds was the idea we need. We've
got to stop the attacks. Theimportant thing is that we've got to get
together. And it's like, overa period of a couple of years,
this rather profound change has come wherepeople have lost their desire to attack one

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another. Leaders have they're tired ofbeing wounded and hurt, and they're like
they're land down their weapons and theysay, we just need to get together
and love one another. Let's juststop the fighting. You know why.
I spend our energies in trying toand I think that God has to do
that. When men no longer carrythe sword of defense for their own particular
ministries or feel like they got adefending against everybody else, and they say,

(32:00):
brother, I don't have any fightleft in me. I just want
to get along with you. That'ssovereign in God, you know. And
so that I think is a reallyencouraging basis for unity when we're more concerned
about the need to love one anotherand to be together and to support one
another than we are about proving ourselvesright and the other fellow wrong. Uh.
That's a new day in the Bodyof Christ, and I think we're

(32:21):
in that and it's a delight tobe in meetings where that that spirit is
manifested now. And uh, Ithink it holds great promise for the future.
There. You know, you've alreadyaddressed COVID. You've already addressed the

(32:42):
the recurrence of the themes of giftsand deliverance and things like that. You've
talked about those as being foundational insome of the topics that were covered in
New One. But I wonder whatyour insights would be on a seeming re
emergence of those two areas presently.Yeah, it seems to be more of

(33:06):
an emphasis on baptism, gifts andthe ministry of the Holy Spirit and deliverance
and spirits and work. Yeah,I think here's a sense in which we
feel like we've come full circle moreor less, that there was a we
got into the charismatic renewal at atime when all of those things were going
on, and made our contribution tothat significant contribution I believe. But then

(33:29):
God began to emphasize with us atleast other things in terms of government and
rule and authority and submission, gettingour own houses in order, turning attention
to the family and things like that, And that went on for a number
of years. And again I thinkthat was in God. But as I
said earlier, when God's emphasizing onething, other things are de emphasized.
So it's like we had launched withthis tremendous emphasis on the baptism and the

(33:53):
gifts and casting out demons and themiraculous, the charismatic things. And while
that was still going on in ourtension began to be given to other things,
and I think so far as ourparticipation in that was concerned, it
was greatly diminished. It's like Iremember hearing Derek say one time about deliverance.
For a while, when he wasinterested in turning to other things,
he referred to deliverance. He said, I have to think I've plowed that

(34:15):
for long enough. And I thinkthere was a time for a while in
his ministry, as it was inmine, I was just using deliverance as
an example. But where we didnot give major attention to that didn't mean
that God changed his mind about doingit. In fact, the very fact
that we dropped off in our activityin that led some people to the erroneous

(34:35):
conclusion that we had decided it waswrong and we had forsaken it. And
I even got some mail and sodid he saying, you know, I've
heard that you've recanted on demons andthat Christians can't have demons, that you
don't believe it anymore. Is it'strue. No, we didn't stop believing
in it. It's just that wegot involved in other things. But now
there seems to be a rising tideagain, another rising tide of the charismatic
activity which we're getting caught up in. It's interesting notice this year eighty three

(35:01):
and eighty four, specifically this yeareighty four, I've got a number of
invitations for ministry coming up that areand I have already had some of them
this year that where I was askedto come specifically to teach on spiritual warfare
and on deliverance, more than I'vehad in several years. It's not that
I'd haven't continued that in my ministry, but it's just that it hasn't had

(35:22):
a greater emphasis But now I see, which I see as confirmation of the
points you're making, Dick, thatthere is a resurgence of interest in the
supernatural, like God is beginning onceagain to move powerfully with As Derek I
think says, maybe another way itis coming, and we've heard other men
prophesy that, so it may wellbe that we're going to get it just
as involved as we were before.But I think there'll be a difference this

(35:44):
time because we've come to maturity,because we've helped established groups, responsible committed
with responsible committed relationships across the bodyof Christ. I think there's going to
be a better receptacle to hold themiraculous end than there was before. One
of the strange things about revivals throughouthistory is that so often, most of
the time they have been very shortlived. Great things happen, and then

(36:07):
it's almost as if the effects ofthem totally disappear, and it's like there
wasn't any container to contain the benefitsof that. Far well, I believe
this time around we will have Ithink years ago Charles mentioned a prophecy that
came in someplace where he's preaching,where God spoke about a great harvest coming,

(36:27):
and he said, so harvest agreat that you will not be able
to gather it. And once yougather it, you'll weep because there's not
barns to put it in. Iwonder if maybe that's not God's way of
saying that you know what's coming thistime is that there will be barns to
put it in. There will bepeople. One of the things that God
has sensitized us too in the pastis that knowing what God wants to do

(36:47):
and bringing people to maturity and helpingthem live holy lives and to give them
adequate pastoral care, which has beena major emphasis of ours in recent years.
There's continuing pastoral care to seeing thatpeople are looked after pastorally when you
see the and live with the tremendousresponsibilities that are commensurate with that. The
thought of great new thousands being sweptinto the church through another charismatic renewal,

(37:15):
while in one way it's exciting,in another way it's you say, my
God, how will we take careof them once we get them in?
Because the shepherding, the pastoral careis of such importance and it takes so
much time to do that. RightIf you're called to do that. That
suddenly to have a whole new waveof people come into your responsibility in some
way, that you have some sortof continuing responsibility for them is really a

(37:37):
frightening thought. But God seems tobe doing it anyway. I mean,
it's going to happen with the resurgenceof the charismatic thing. And I think
those of us who have a concernfor continuing care will just have to brace
ourselves for the load as it comes. What's the most encouraging thing to you

(38:09):
right now of anything you see goingon in the church and would cause you
to be most hopeful, Well,I think I always have hope because God
sovereign. Sometimes that's about all Ihave hope. And when you do get
discouraged when you see, uh,you know, see how how painfully slow

(38:30):
progress is, and when you viewthe history of the church, Uh,
it's very difficult to feel very excitedabout some great new, wonderful, permanent
thing going to revolutionize the whole worldin the next two years, because that's
not been the history of the church. Uh. Spiritual progress has been very

(38:51):
painfully slow, and with three stepsforward and two steps back sort of the
things I think one of the mostencouraging things to me is what we've already
mentioned of that is the desire foryou y among leaders, which I thinks,
perhaps more profoundly than anything else,speaks to a better day ahead.
That eventually God's promise that the churchJesus promised that the church would be one

(39:15):
even as he and the Father wereone, what he prayed for in that
great prayer for unity, that thatis a possibility. I don't know how
God's going to do it for sure, but I know that He's promised to
do it, that the eventually unitywill come to the church. And at
this present stage, there seems tobe some very encouraging things, at least

(39:36):
in our wing of the church,that show a greater measure of cooperation,
a greater measure of commitment to eachother, a greater measure of love and
of unity than I've seen in myyears in the ministry. So I'm encouraged
about that. I'm also encouraged,I'd have to say, is I feel

(39:58):
personal encouragement because of God's faithfulness.Sometimes when I see things not taking place
that I think ought to take place, or see situations backsliding or problems coming
up. That's awful. Easy tosay, well, you know, jeewhiz
if we so much of what we'vedone through the years doesn't seem to be
panning out now so forth. Butthen I think about that God doesn't hold

(40:22):
us responsible for being successful. Heholds us responsible for being faithful. We're
not called to be successful, We'recalled to be faithful and God is That's
because God is faithful, and soI'm encouraged in that that even if you
know, one of the interesting thingswe've noticed is that some in fairly recent

(40:44):
years that some men who were movingin very powerfully in big public circles have
had that public ministry diminished, andthey're giving their more attention to housekeeping things
and developing things that will last ratherthan be in big public ministrys. Well,
the way the world looks at that, they'd say, well, he's
past his peak, or that ministry'sgone or something else. But I'm no

(41:06):
longer discouraged when I hear about thingslike that happening, because I see that
God is faithful, and if Hewants to take a man out of some
great, big, successful ministry andapply him into some way into something that's
building something more lasting, I tendto rejoice in that because one of the
things I think we're seeing happening isthat we're going to be able to pass

(41:28):
on to the next generation things thatGod did with us. And that hasn't
been the case in the past.Great revivals in the past, great men
in the past have tended so oftento be like flashing meteors across the sky,
and when they're gone, their light'sgone out to you look at some
of the great evangelists like Finny andMoody and others who are wonderful men of

(41:49):
God doing what God they called himto do, but they didn't leave anything
behind them in the sense of otherthan the record of their ministries. They
didn't seem to pass on to anothergeneration. And uh, I don't know
exactly how I said, because Idon't want to be critical of those men,
but uh, I see us bywhat God has done well. I
see us being able to build forthe future, being able to leave a

(42:12):
deposit in the Body of Christ,with established churches and groups that are going
to carry on what we did sothat and have done and are doing so
that it will not all be lost. It won't be it won't die with
us. So I'm encouraged about thatone of the key areas yet untouched by
the church, that why head ofus as challenges to be recognised. Oh,

(42:39):
I'm sure there are lots of those. One that primarily has been a
concern of mine for several years nowhas been the Uh. God's quickened my
awareness about the whole need for thechurch to understand uh, the whole matter
of stewardship and and basically what Icome to call kingdom economics. Uh.
I think the Church has been terrelyterribly neglectful, and not only first of

(43:01):
all teaching its own people how tobe good stewards of their material resources,
but a feeling that somehow matters likewealth and industry and capital goods and all
those things, or somehow outside theprovince of the church. And I've been
doing a study in recent years evenhave done some teaching and been working on

(43:22):
a book on what I call kingdomeconomics that have I believe that God intends
to quicken us in that area tohelp. A part of being a mature
Christian is to learn how to benot only a good steward of what God
has given us, to be ableto multiply that I think it's going to
take wealth, physical wealth to bringin the Kingdom of God. And the

(43:46):
truth is right now, and awhole lot of that wealth isn't in the
hands of Christians. Now. Godcould miraculously do that, but I don't
think that's his intention. I thinkhis intention is to provide for us kingdom
prosperity and to teach are young menthat are coming up now how to succeed
in business and how to make profits, and how to invest, and how
to be stewards of what God hasdone for them. I see this as

(44:08):
a whole realm that's largely untouched bymost of our ministries as of yet.
And yet in the parable of talentsthat were so familiar with that you often
give spiritual application to the story Jesustold about the householder who gave the five
and two and one talents to hisservants. That's an economic parable. They

(44:29):
were to go out and invest whatthey had, and two of them did
and double their return on their investment, and they were called faithful stewards.
And the one who just ended upwith no more than he started out with,
the one talent who didn't feel aresponsibility to be a good economic steward.
He just buried his talent. Hewas called wicked. Well, I
think when you take just the ballbasic meaning of that parable, it's rather

(44:51):
obvious that God has made the stewardsof the whole earth over. In Deuteronomy,
one of the promises God gave tothe Israelites. One of the things
that warned him after it came intothe Promised land, We're gonna be a
land flowing the milicle, and hesaid, don't forget when you come into
that abundance, you need to rememberthat it's God who gives you the power
to get wealth. And I don'tthink Christians have really been that much aware

(45:12):
of They've we felt somehow that it'syou know, if you get involved in
high finance or wealth and fortunes andindustry and all that that's out there in
the secular world, and that's somehownot our province. But I think God
wants to redeem all that. Andeventually, it's my belief that God,
for whatever financial crises we may gothrough in the future, and it looks
like we may have one next fewyears, somewhere along bike, I think

(45:35):
it's the intention of God to seethat that tremendous resources are put in the
hands of Christians, so I didn'tmean to get that involved. But that's
one major area that I think thatwe've neglected that is a real challenge for
the Body of Christ is to learnhow to rule in the economic realm,
not only in our homes or locally, but to rule in the sense of

(45:57):
nationwide and worldwide. God intends theeconomy of the world to eventually be ruled
by Christians. What issues do yousee other leaders of messing that I feel
like we also need to address.Well, I don't quite know how to
answer that. I've been more encouragedto see some of those leaders beginning to

(46:22):
address things that we've addressed for along time that they didn't, And that's
encouraging. Where people who used tobe our enemies now are doing the things
that we used to do, orthat we do now doing what they used
to criticize us for doing, that'sencouraging. But I'm sure there are other
things that we need to give ourselvesto that others are stressing. I think

(46:43):
one I'm lately have been impressed thatwe've tended to be a bit critical of
the faith teachers in recent years forthen they've had their excesses just like we
had ours. But I think onething God is showing us now is that
we need more of that in ourown message. We need to be reiterating
some of those basic charismatic truths aboutwhat we receive in God is, you

(47:04):
know, is determined by how strongour faith is. And certainly we're being
put in touch with some of thosepeople in a positive way. So I
think I feel unawareness in my ownteaching to begin to stress again some of
those truths that I proved early inmy own life when I was living by
faith and had miraculous answers, tosee that God doesn't want us out of

(47:27):
that dimension. He wants us morein that dimension, that faith dimension where
things happen. The truth is thosemen like Ken Copeland and Ken Hagen and
others who are the faith teachers.For all that people may disagree with their
theology, they're demonstrating by what they'rebuilding the truth of what they're teaching.
The resources are coming, the resourcesare appearing. God does answer the prayer

(47:49):
of faith. And they may havebeen sort of narrow minded in their emphasis
in time especials like we have been. But I feel personally that the area
of the Body of Christ that we'reinvolved in could use a good, big,
strong dose of that kind of faithto believe God once again for you
know, really for miracles. Infact, I'm going to be preaching this
Sunday on persevering in prayer. Uhso. Uh. I don't have a

(48:15):
lot of familiarity with some of themore profound, uh theological things that are
occupying I'm not into that particularly,some of the big theological differences that still
divide Christians. Uh so. Uh. I guess that's probably all I want
to say on that same question inyour recent teaching, Is there one particular

(48:37):
description that you find the Lord wrongyou two more than any more than any
others? Well, not totally,But there's one thing I've made a recent
study of the Book of Jonah.God sort of quickened to me some months
ago. In fact, I workingon a little book I hope some day
to finish on it, so it'llbe a little premature to try to do
it now. But God sort ofquickened that whole book to me, so

(48:58):
he's you know, it's a veryshort book, basic tells about God's dealing
with one man who he called tobe a prophet and to go to deliver
a message to Nima. And howJonah tried to run from God and not
be in the ministry that he wascalled to, or either not being ministry
altogether. And eventually God through miraculousways through the storm, the ship's storm,

(49:22):
storm on the ship on the wayto Tarsius, and Jonah being thrown
overboard as the source of the problemand being swallowed by the fish and brought
back to the shores of Israel andspat out on the beach, then goes
and Nim and finally gives the messageto call that great wicked city to repentance.
And anything I found is that Godwant to try to deliver a message

(49:43):
on it. But God dealing withJonah very consistently and continually through a whole
number of phases in Jonah's own development, that God had a specific call on
Jonah's life, and he was determinedto see that Jonah would fulfill it,
and he brought all kinds of pressuresto bear for Jonah to do that.
And what I was reminded through alland that is the faithfulness of God and

(50:05):
his dealings with us, and thatsometimes he has to deal with us rather
sternly, to keep us going inthe right direction. But I guess what
I'm stressing is that I've been feelinga little bit of the of the sovereignty
of God, a little bit ofpredestination, so to speak, which I

(50:25):
think all of us need to needto be aware when we're going through struggles.
That doesn't mean that God has givenup on us or that we necessarily
failed. That there is a determinationin God to see his work done,
and that we are where we areas a result of His continued grace.
And while that can be painful onthe one hand, it can be encouraging

(50:47):
on I think of Saint Augustine hasquoted as saying that we were doomed to
be saints. I think there's acertain truth in that that once God's call
is on your life, even thoughyou try to run from it. If
you try to run from it,God has his ways of bringing you back
around. And for one who reallywants to serve God, that can be

(51:07):
very, very encouraging that our I'mnot quite sure our successes are our failures
and matter that much to God.I think what He's after is us and
success and failure is in his hands, and he may use failure as a
part of his you know, makingus into what we ought to be,

(51:28):
and we tend to get preoccupied withsuccess, are discouraged by failure, whereas
God has an ultimate goal in mind, which uh, you know, which
includes us. It's uh, it'snot exclusive of us. Thinking over the
past fifteen years. What the lessonsyou learned, how does it apply to

(51:52):
present the future? Prest Well,I think that's related to what I just
said. My feeling is, andI think some of the other men share
this too, that the older weget, the more we come to see
that more than being successful in thein one sense of the word, we

(52:12):
have become survivors. To survive issuccess in one sense when you see the
the casualty rate in the body ofChrist, people who start out with the
Lord but don't end up with him, or who fall to the wayside,
even ministries that fall into disrepute,or men who are number of years ago
were in powerful ministry that have disappearedfrom the scene through you know, getting
downhearted or being picked off by thedevil or whatever reason. I'm my growing

(52:36):
conviction is as I get older,is that I'm where I am only by
the grace of God and for andthat I've survived. That's the biggest thing
that I have to share with people. I don't think it's because of techniques
we've learned, or because of ofany wisdom on our part or any cunning
that we've had. Particularly, I'mI'm becoming more the order I get,

(53:00):
the more I become aware of thesovereignty of God. That God is in
control of my life and my ministry. When it's successful, he's in control
of it. When it's being recognizedacross the nation through something I've written or
something I've done, or through booksor through the magazine, he's in charge
of that. If I were tobecome anonymous tomorrow, he would be in
charge of that, and I wouldhave to be content with that. Because

(53:22):
God is the one who's in controland where he's fitting us into his plan.
It's not so much what our planis. I believe that's why the
magazine has succeeded and continues to blesspeople, is that it's been an integral
part of his plan. I thinkGod is sovereignly ordained the birth of that
of New Wine magazine, and thathe is sovereignly upheld it, and that
he will continue sovereignty to uphold it, unless in his sovereign purpose next year

(53:46):
he might decide to do away withOkay, But my comfort is in the
realization that it is what it isby his design and by the things that
we see happening right now behind thescenes. I have every confidence that it's
going to greet the increase and it'sin effectiveness and in its distribution. But
I remember in the story of Paul'smissionary journey with Silas Barnabas chickens out and

(54:12):
they divide and Paul to choose aSilas. They're in Act sixteen, and
they start out on this missionary journeyand they try to go first to one
place and God shuts the door.They try to go to Asia, and
then they try, praying, tryto go to be Athenian. God closes
the door. Then Paul has avision about the man from Macedonian says,
come over and help us. Sothey head from Macedonia and that whole missionary
journey which ends up with him thrownin jail and eventually preaching to the people

(54:37):
in jail and converting the Macedonian jailer. There's such a sovereignty of God in
that whole thing. Here. Pauland Silas were trying to fulfill what they
believe God's will for them was goingcertain places and doing certain things, and
God was all the time behind thescenes, pulling strings to eventually get them
to the place where they could preachto that jailer, that Macedonian jailer.

(54:57):
I think that's the sovereignty of God. Now, they weren't they didn't know
that, they didn't know where theywere heading, and God knows they didn't
want to be in jail. ButI've just since there's a great sovereignty in
what we're doing in God, then, and if we just don't deliberately check
it out, we'll make it.We'll survive, and we'll do basically what
He's called us to do. Butit's because of his call and because of
his grace, not because of oursuccess. That's why I say He's called

(55:22):
us to be faithful, not successful, and the success will come if we're
faithful, but it'll be his success, not ours. Final question is just
what practical steps could you share thatwe as Christians need to be involved to
prepare us for God using us inthe future. Well, I would tend

(55:43):
to agree with Derek that the futureis not necessarily going to be easy.
My personal feeling is that there isa big economic crisis somewhere facing us in
the next few years worldwide. I'vecome to that conclusion on my study of
of economic situation, and there's justif economic law is just and real,
the whole world is due for somesort of collapse because the whole world is

(56:07):
in debt, tremendously, hopelessly indebt, and eventually debts have to be
paid, our bankruptcy has to occur. I mean, you know, there
is a final justice has to come. And the history of the world's economy
through the years is that it happensperiodically, and I think it's destined to
happen in our lifetime. So that'sone reason why I have a concern for

(56:29):
people to learn to be good stewardstoo much as they can to stay out
of debt. More perhaps more importantto learn how to pray with faith and
to be able to trust God forhis provision. And also I think it's
important to stress we've had in themagazine and in our own ministries and helping
people find their place in a committedcommunity of believers, in the covenant community.
I think all of these things theysound kind of self seeking or self

(56:52):
preserving in a way, but Ithink these are necessary for us to survive
hard times. I mean, thehistory of the world has been the Church
has gone through some difficult times.And I think that doesn't mean there won't
be victories and joys and blessings andso forth. But I uh, my
personal feeling is that we need tobe prepared for difficult times ahead, and

(57:14):
these are some steps that we needto to bear in mind. I think
out of that, out of thedifficulty, I think the kingdom will be
made manifest. I think the kingdomscome. God's will is down through shaking,
and I think we're entering into atime are in a time of where
a lot of things are being shaken, and things there are u there's so
few anchors that hold people anymore.The world's on a casts, a drift,

(57:38):
on a sea of relativism. There. You know, our society has
so many, so few basic rootsanymore. They don't believe in basic truths
or basic morals anymore. And they'vepeople have set themselves, I've made themselves
rootless and we're suffering from for that. So I'd say to be prepared to
go through some stormy times on theway to the final victory God has in

(58:00):
store, and UH to be confidentthat we're on the right side. Then
no matter what else happens, withour confidence in the Lord, He'll see
us through. Amen. Well,I got kind of long worded leg It
didn't mean to take that long whenI went right. I didn't know I
had that much to say about thosequestions. What are their meeting