October 23, 2023 • 40 mins
Brad is the Laed Pastor of Mosaic Atlanta. To learn more about the church goto MosaicAtlanta.net
For far too long, the Book of Revelation has been a source of confusion and even fear within the Christian community. Many have been left with a sense of dread and hopelessness when confronted with its enigmatic passages. Whenever conflict or instability arises in the Middle East, there's a chorus of individuals exploiting the situation, proclaiming their own version of "The Sky is Falling." They become the modern-day sidewalk prophets, declaring that the End is Near.
Reverend Brad Bellomy joins Dr. Jeffrey D. Skinner in a quest for a responsible and enlightened reading of Revelation. It's crucial to remember that Revelation is a book filled with immense hope. Even more importantly, the scroll was originally intended for the Seven Churches in Asia Minor, who had faced persecution at the hands of the Roman Empire.
While this series was planned long before the recent conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, its timeliness cannot be overstated. Once again, various factions are emerging, offering doom and gloom, and warning of the world's end. While it is true that Jesus will return one day, it is also true that "only the Father in Heaven knows the day and hour." Any attempts to predict impending disaster and doom are, at best, misguided and, at worst, manipulative.
Our commitment to "responsible scripture interpretation" is rooted in several key principles:
1. **Clarity of Interpretation:** We aim to provide a clear and well-founded interpretation of Revelation. This is essential because the book has often been subjected to various and sometimes extreme interpretations.
2. **Avoiding an Elitist Attitude:** We approach the text with humility, recognizing that ours is not the only correct interpretation. We seek to present the information in an approachable and relatable manner, avoiding an elitist "academic" stance.
3. **Teaching in Line with Original Context and Generally Accepted Theology:** Our approach respects the original audience and context of Revelation while adhering to generally accepted theological principles. This ensures a balanced interpretation that doesn't distort the symbolism out of context.
4. **Providing Historical Context:** We shed light on the historical backdrop in which Revelation was written, including the challenges faced by the Seven Churches in Asia Minor under a hostile empire. Understanding this context is crucial for appreciating the message's significance.
5. **Openness to Diverse Interpretations:** We encourage open dialogue and acknowledge that differing interpretations are possible without branding them as heretical. Our aim is to foster inclusive and constructive discussions.
6. **Focus on Hope and Salvation:** Throughout our exploration of Revelation, we emphasize that it conveys a message of hope and serves as a testimony to Jesus' work on the cross. This stands in stark contrast to the oppressive tactics of empires, highlighting God's love and salvation through Jesus.
In essence, our approach to a "responsible" interpretation of Revelation seeks to be balanced, respectful of diverse viewpoints, and centered on the book's message of hope and salvation. We hope it provides valuable context for understanding the significance of Revelation within its historical and theological framework. Join us on Echoes through Eternity for a journey of discovery and enlightenment.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/echoes-through-eternity-with-dr-jeffery-skinner--5523198/support.
Echoes Through Eternity Guiding church planters and pastors to plant seeds of prayer, holiness, and courage that outlast a lifetime. contact drjefferydskinner@protonmail.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
The earliest icons of the Resurrection.They showed Jesus standing kicking in the doors
of Hades and reaching down and pullingpeople up. There's the difference between the
way that European colonial Christianity emerged versuswhat Christianity really was from the beginning.
(00:27):
It's not that Jesus is a bossand he's won and you better get on
his team or he's gonna wear youout. It's that Jesus, through the
Resurrection, Jesus kicked in the doorsof hell and is reaching down to pull
people out. Marcus really has saidwhat we do in life echoes through Eternity.
(00:48):
What is your life echoing through eternity? Welcome to Echoes through Eternity with
doctor Jeffrey Skinner. Our mission isto inspire, engage, and encourage leaders
from across the globe to plant missionalchurches and be servant leaders. So join
us and here are the stories ofservant leaders reverberating lives as God echoes them
through eternity, brought to you bymissional Church Planting and Leadership Development and Dynamic
(01:14):
Church Planning International. Welcome into Echoesthrough Eternity. I am your host,
Doctor Jeffrey d. Skinner, Whatis God that going through your life today?
Well, folks, I am excitedfor season three of Echoes through Eternity.
I have thirty episodes planned for thisseason and today is the start of
(01:34):
a six week series on the Bookof Revelation. And I have a friend
of mine who happens to also bemy pastor. It's always good when your
pastor can also be your friend.I have been in situations like that where
I was a pastor of people butwas not necessarily their friends. So kudos
to you, Brad, that we'reable to be both. That's a testament
(01:57):
to you. But anyway, I'vegot riding the studio with me today,
and you know, we had himon last year. He's a pastor of
Mosaic Church in Nazarene and Lilburn,Georgia or Mosaic Church, and then there's
also a French while he's speaking.Contradition is part of that Mosaic and so
we talked about his multicultural contacts andwhat he was doing down there last year.
(02:21):
And you can go to Moaic Atlantadot com check him out if you're
in the Atlanta area. I thinkyou love the church. Plug into it.
Visit us online. You can washyou online and then come visit us,
visit us in person. Good youthpastor there. And Brad has a
one reason I went Brad to helpme with this podcast. He has a
unique ability to kind of break thingsdown in by sizes that are that are
(02:45):
simple enough to digest without overwhelming youand make them understandable. He Now,
what I'm not saying is that hereduces it, because there's a difference when
we reduced something. For example,the Book of Revelation has also been has
often just been reduced to a bookabout the end of times. Then we
(03:06):
we strip it of its meaning,right, it no longer has the meaning
that it's intended to have when wereduce it. Think about the Trinity.
When we reduce the Trinity to simplythree individuals, the Trinity no longer has
the effect that it was intended tohave. It is a mystery. It
is a calling for us to knowGod in his fullness. And then if
(03:29):
there's a question about God and hischaracter and his nature, we can know
that He would rebuild in Christ.But to separate Christ from God would be
heresy and a reduction in Christ.And simply to make Jesus just another man,
an idol of God himself. Andso that's why it happens when we
(03:49):
reduce things, Brad doesn't reduce it. He has the ability to take things
simplify but doesn't strip them of theirmeaning at the same time. And that's
why I invited Brad to do thiswith me. So Brad, welcome in,
brother. It's good to have youhere. Thank you, it's great
to be here. I'm excited.Yeah, we have divided up this up
into just a couple of about sixdifferent episodes here and so today we want
(04:14):
to talk about what it means toread scripture responsibly, right, and so
this is a responsible reading a revelationas what we're calling this, and so
want to unpack what that means.What is a responsible reading of revelation?
What is a responsible reading of scripture? So, Brad, talk a little
bit about that. What do youyou're the one that kind of turned that
(04:35):
phrase there, that responsible reading yourscripture. Talk a little bit about what
you're meaning by that. I thinkthere's a situation that we live in that
we're not always aware of. Idon't think people understand the difference always between
solid biblical theology and what I callfolk theology. Here's the difference. There's
(05:00):
a lot that has been handed downto us by well meaning people. I'm
not demonizing people, but there area lot of things that have been handed
down to us that just simply aren'taccurate. And the reason for that is
that simply there has been a lackof emphasis on education in the American Church.
(05:24):
It's easy to be ordained in alot of different venues without really passing
a test that would make you authoritativeon the scriptures. So what tends to
happen is people with a lot ofpassion but not quite enough education begin to
(05:47):
preach, and the people who lovethem and see the fruits of the spirit
in their lives take what they sayand it gospel. I think pastors need
to understand that. I mean,we know who we are when we see
ourselves in the mirror, but sooften what we say people take much more
(06:13):
seriously than we might remember. Iremember when my youth pastor used to speak.
What he said was it. Ididn't see him as a human,
I saw him as a superhero.And so I think that there is an
epidemic right now of misreading scripture,reading scripture through our lens through a filter
(06:43):
that is a twenty twenty three filter, rather than reading twenty twenty three through
the filter of scripture. I thinkit's a simple tweak, but it's it's
simple, but it's costly. Sowhen we read the Bible through our filters,
(07:05):
we're gonna misinterpret it almost every time. But when we read ourselves through
an authentic reading of scripture, wellthat's an entirely different story. And so
that I feel like we've all we'reall carrying pieces of folk theology that are
(07:26):
not helpful. Here's an example.I had a severe loss when I was
seventeen years old, and I'll neverforget being in the funeral home and a
little lady, her name was Anniemay in Low. She was one of
the sweetest people. She loved Godas much as anybody I have ever known.
(07:46):
But in the receiving line, Iwas hurting. It was a terrible
loss, and she it was anuntimely death. And she came and she
looked at me with those loving eyes, and she hugged me and she said,
Brad, don't worry. One dayyou'll understand why God did this.
Well, I remember thinking, asa seventeen year old well, if God
(08:09):
did this, we've got a problem, right. But what she was working
off of is this folk theology ofeverything happens for a reason. That's something
that gets passed down and said often, and nobody really thinks to question that,
right, But that's not biblical.Yeah, so that's an example of
(08:30):
what we're talking about. The Bookof Revelation is this on steroids. There
are so many opportunities to miss thepoint. Yeah, I remember we were
talking a little bit before the podcasthere. And I love the Book of
(08:50):
Revelation. I have loved the Bookof Revelation since I was a kid.
I love it for a different reasonnow. I used to think the Book
of Revelation was about what was goingto happen to all those people who were
my enemies and who were God's enemiesat the end of time. I used
to think that it was about punishingall those people who didn't agree with us,
(09:11):
you know. Thus, Christians,we were the We were the the
savior of the entire world, andwe had Jesus in our back pocket,
and the rest of those people werejust you know, hoodlums, and they
were all over going to hell andand Revelation was what was going to happen
to them. They'd all get leftbehind and and we would just be yeah,
we we just be up into cloudscelebrating Yay, we won, you
(09:35):
know. And that's why I likedas a kid. Simultaneously, I had
this deep seed fear that regardless ofhow good I was, I was gonna
be one of the ones that gotleft behind. I remember seeing this movie
and again, well meaning people outthere, you know, I don't I
don't want anybody to think that I'mI'm telling you that I am better than
(09:56):
you, or that I'm smarter thanyou or anything like that. That's that's
not what this is about, right, This is just as you said,
a responsible reading. We will clarativeinterpretation. There there can be valid interpretations
where we can agree disagree on thatinterpretation, and then there are interpretations they're
(10:16):
just flat out wrong. Right.Yeah. So I think in terms of
boiling it down, I think,and I think this is true not only
for what we will be discussing,but for Christianity in our society as a
whole. Very smart people do verydumb things with misinformation. Right. It's
(10:39):
not about whether people are capable orsmart. It's not even about whether people
love God. Right, the questionis are we operating off of accurate information?
And in this context, are areis what I'm saying consistent with an
accurate understanding of what the Book ofRevelation was doing and what it was saying.
(11:03):
Yeah, and revelation is singular.Will clarify that to other hear revelations,
it's only one revelation. Yeah,that's happening here and so yeah,
I mean that as that was it. But that movie just scared me,
That Left Behind movie, and itjust steered into my consciousness. And then,
bless their heart, you know,Tim Lahay and Jerry Jenkins released that
(11:26):
the entire series left the series andand look, I don't I never heard
them say that this this is youknow, one fact, I mean they
I always said it was. Itwas a work of fiction there, sure,
but it was based upon what theyconsidered an accurate interpretation of Revelation,
which was based in dispensationalism. Anddispensationalism what I you know, eventually learned.
(11:50):
The reason I love Revelation now isbecause it's not a book of fear.
It is one of the most hopefulbooks in the Book of the Bib
in the is the it filled withall kinds of hope. Even though its
original audience was seven churches within towhom John was writing there, the implications
(12:11):
and the applications are still practical fortoday. The the you know, they
were suffering, suffering under the thumbof an evil empire, I mean one
that that just absolutely was oppressive,and it was their way or the highway,
and had a leader could be reminiscentof maybe political undertones from today,
(12:33):
who thought they were God sure orat least had that God like mentality,
and insisted that himself be worshiped asGod, and anyone who disagreed with that
was tortured and oppressed. Yeah.I don't know if the listeners are aware,
but most of our phrases that haveeven carried into Christian worship, they
(12:56):
are worship. They are phrases thatwere co opted from the worship of Caesar.
So people would be required to sayCaesar is Lord. They would say
there is no other name under heavenby which man can be saved but Caesar.
And so a lot of a lotof the times, even in the
New Testament, when we see thesethese phrases, they carried a lot more
(13:18):
weight back then because they were theywere co opting a worship of a false
god and focusing their language back whereit should be. You were talking about
that movie. I was, Sothis was funny to me because the movie
I remember is a lot older thanthat. Growing up, we used to
have I don't know if you everhad a watch night service on New Year's
(13:39):
Eve. So I'll be honest withyou these days, if I think about
doing anything on New Year's Eve,I want us to look forward like I
want to. I want to.I want us to be hopeful. Right.
But they would show this movie calledThief in the Night. Yeah,
that's oh, that's the one.Yeah. Well, here's what I remember
about that. They would show iton those old reel to reels and it
(14:01):
would scare me to death. Andthe worst part of it was at the
very end when the reel would runout and the film would go and it's
just it was terrifying. That soundto this day of a reel to reel.
It it puts me back for justa second, and you think,
(14:24):
in what in what universe did thechurch think that the best way to enter
a new day was to scare youto death. So that's why I'm here.
Yeah, I mean I am,And you say that we even had
(14:48):
Do you remember this song? Iwish we'd all been ready? Do you
remember that? I loved it becauseDC talked, d C Talk did it
and I loved that song. Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking at the words
that life was filled with guns andwar and everyone got trampled on the floor.
I wish we'd all been ready.Children died, todays grew cold,
a piece of bread could buy abag of gold. I wish we'd all
(15:09):
been ready. There's no time tochange your mind. The sun has come
and you've been left behind. Aman wife asleep in bed. She hears
a noise and turned her head.He's gone. I wish we'd all been
ready. Two men walking up ahill. One disappears, one of us
standing still. I wish we'd allbeen ready. There's no time to change
(15:33):
her mind. The Son of Godhas come, and you've been left behind.
So I think this is important becausewe're talking about so we're moving into
some uncomfortable territory, because I thinkthat it will at least be insinuated,
that maybe the entire context we grewup in has missed some important things,
(15:54):
right, One of the important thingsI feel like we've missed is an understanding
of how we got here to beginwith. So any one of us in
America, not just our faith,but everything we do. It began with
armadas rolling up onto shores and sayingwe're going to give you a choice.
(16:18):
You can love Jesus and become youcan become Christian, or we'll kill you.
Yeah, and I'll be honest,that thread of fear has never really
gone away in the Western Christianity.Yeah. Yeah, And that's such an
important distinction too when we say WesternChristianity, because Christianity was not born in
(16:45):
the West. It was born morein the East. Jesus was in you
know, Jerusalem, who was asa Middle Eastern type country there certainly closer
to the east end is west.And and their way of thinking. What
I think what we don't fully understandis is that when that gives them happened
(17:07):
back after Christianity became the state religionof the Roman Empire, well beyond that,
and so the the popes began toargue over Yeah, when they began
to argue over who's gonna who's gonnabe in power, that's when with the
Church he was unified, and wesplit. It was the church first church
split between East and Western. Sothen the East kind of took up and
(17:29):
they began to develop their own Christianity, and then the West began to get.
In reality, this is our Westernway of Christianity really really has passed
down through the Roman Empire and ina lot of ways, and Greek understanding
and the Greek worship of gods andand all that type of stuff with the
part with the pantheon of Gods andall that. So here here's an here's
an example of that. Before theprinting press and before people you know,
(17:53):
were able to before reading was athing that people took up a lot of
time doing. Theology was passed downthrough icons, paintings, and we we
I think a lot of times whenwe look at these old icons, we
just think, ah, that's weird. But the truth is these were pieces
of theology. Everything in these pictureswas important, and and so in the
(18:15):
Western Church, like since since theGreat Schism and throughout the years, the
most prominent icon of the Resurrection isthis very familiar one where there's like almost
like a tomb and the top ofit's moved over and everybody's sort of sitting
in awe and they're looking up andJesus is he's like floating in the air
(18:38):
like a boss with his hands out, like, you know, like the
conquering savior. And what's interesting hehas he has there's a flag in that
icon somewhere that looks a lot likethe flag of the Crusades. There's this
idea that Jesus has kicked butt andtaken names, you know. But what's
(18:59):
interesting is that that is not Thatis not the way the Resurrection was presented
up until then, and it's notthe way it continued to be. Representing
the Eastern Church, the earliest iconsof the Resurrection, they showed Jesus standing
kicking in the doors of Hades andreaching down and pulling people up. There's
(19:22):
the difference between the way that Europeancolonial Christianity emerged versus what Christianity really was
from the beginning. It's not thatJesus is a boss and he's won and
you better get on his team orhe's gonna wear you out. It's that
Jesus, through the Resurrection, Jesuskicked in the doors of hell and is
(19:45):
reaching down to pull people out.Yeah, yes, it's not reaching into
hell to converse Satan, but reachinginto hell to rescue those in captivity.
And you know, and that's thething. And that's one of the reasons
to bring us back to revelation now, is is that we think of salvation
(20:06):
then as a singular event, asopposed to one that is happening every day.
I mean, I am saved momentby moment by Jesus every time he
breathes, by God, every timehe breathes life in any right, I
mean we wake up and God doesit again. He raises, He does
the sunrise again every day, andit starts come out again every night.
(20:30):
He may not be speaking these thingsin the existence every day, but creation
is a continual process. Right.It wasn't that God created and walked away
and leftist our own device. ThatsGod is still intimately involved in our lives
today. That in and of itselfis salvation. And that's what I love
about revelation is is this is whatgiants communicating to these churches here because they
(20:55):
they have been under such oppression bythis empire that they had no hope of
escaping without the intervention of God himself. One of the things we'll talk about
in future episodes, is that wewant to see everything on a linear scale.
But this salvation itself, it's cyclical. And this the we there's this
(21:17):
idea that you start here and youjust always get better and better and better.
But the truth is, Jeff,it's a roller coaster. It's there,
there's there. We have our wehave times that we're very proud of.
We look back and we're very we'revery thankful that God enabled us to
be that faithful, and then thereare moments that are just really hard.
And I think what's important about Revelationis it was written to Christians who had
(21:41):
a lot of hard decisions to make. It wasn't just do it, Am
I going to love Jesus? Itwas am I going to be able to
even discern between what God's calling meto and what the Empire's calling me to?
What God's calling me to, andwhat the what the social atmosphere is
calling me to? And And thiswhat's beautiful. What we will find is
(22:04):
beautiful about Revelation and about salvation isthat it's not always just linear. It's
it's cyclical, Like we have gooddays and we have bad days. Yeah,
but God's love does not change.Right, God's love continues coming at
us like a like a like aforce, a literal force of nature.
(22:27):
Right. Yeah. One of myfavorite Thellosians in the church in Nazarene,
Te Scott Daniels recently elected as oneof our generals in the church in Nazrene.
He that was a great decision,by the way it was. I
was I applauded that he It wasa lot of drama involved in it.
He had these moments where he wasrising and then and then ay, somebody
(22:48):
started a rumor that, well,we won't go into all the rumors that
people I was about to ask youto please not Yeah, yeah, let's
not let's go into the rumors day. I don't know that I can reel
that. But anyway, he wasoriginally elected, that's what it matters.
And but he did tell a funnystory at his not at his sert,
like a acceptance speech for lack ofa better term. But they called him
(23:12):
up to say a few words andhe said that his grandfather was also elected
or a rising in the polls tobe elected as a general. And then
they broke and somebody started rumor thathe played golf too much. And so
after the break it began to toyou know, he began to wane and
(23:33):
he was not elected and so ScottScott Daniel said, and that might have
been true. He probably did playgolf little too much. Well, I
mean, that's the thing, Idon't know. I don't I don't know
if if you can, I don'twhen I think about playing golf too much,
playing golf too much just makes meangry, So that there could be
something to that true. Yeah,I tell people that I cannot maintain my
(23:56):
holiness or my Christianity and play golf. It's just gospel there. That's just
a temptation I can overcome. Butanyway, one of the things he talks
about, if you're talking about acyclical season of or cyclical view of salvation
there and he talks about that intalking about exile and or the cycle of
Christian living, so to speak.He says that if you look at the
(24:19):
Bible that kind of follows that cycle, that the people of God are kind
of create, you have creation,everything's good, and then they begin to
fall away. And so then whenthey fall away, then end up going
into exile. And then when they'rein exile, they begin to recognize they're
doing bad, and you know,Prophet comes along and calls them back to
(24:41):
God's side, and so then there'sthat season where they are getting better and
then finally they have the season wherethey're back in the Promised Land again.
And so he talks about that wholecycle of living like they're talking about there,
And I think that's so true,is that we don't live life on
a linear scale. And that's notjust say that that we just say.
We just say, well whatever,and we're just going to live however we
(25:03):
want to. But it's just understandingthat try as much as we do,
we're never going to get it exactlyright. Yeah, And it's not a
matter of how good we are,no matter how God you know, it
was Christ working across again in Revelationis about that God's work, Christ working
across that ultimately provides that path throughsalvation. Sorry, I think my phone
(25:26):
deemed and I was trying to turnthat off. Yeah, go back to
what you're saying. Give me,give me that last little snippet because I
was thinking something. Yeah, SoI said that Scott agreed with your your
view of salvation there where it wascyclical and so we in Promised Land,
and then we get going to exileand and come back to the Promised Land.
Yeah. So there's something that Ithink is really important. And you
(25:51):
just described how you just described thenature of scripture. I think it's really
important to understand that there there wasthis turning there was this turning point.
Now people didn't become perfect decide that, you know, they are still good
and bad, but this raised awarenessof the presence of the Holy Spirit really
did shift the trajectory. And Ithink that that's important just as a pastor,
(26:15):
to to help people understand, youknow, God is not a subject
to be mastered. The Holy Spiritis with us, walking with us.
And what we're going to see inthe Book of Revelation is that if it
weren't for this presence of God,who who was with us to lead us
(26:37):
in the right directions and also withus to lead us out of the wrong
directions, Like we don't always getit right. And in the early Church
it was really hard at times,first to discern in the middle of all
the voices what the voice of Jesuswas saying to them, and then to
(27:00):
do it. If only we hadthat audible voice of God to give us
specific instructions there. But then youknow, we've got the Bible and that
and and the Bible is that revelationof God's revelation of God's nature, and
so in that sense, the entireBible is revelation. But then the Book
(27:22):
of Revelation is the revelation of JesusChrist. And that's where we get back
that that most hopeful book of atleast arguably the most hopeable book of the
Bible there and and it's it's arevelation of a message to seven churches,
yeah, in the first century.Yeah, And so we're trying to provide
(27:45):
some historical context here. We won't. We will make sure that people understand
that the original context and and generallyaccept theology has as you said earlier that
you there's a lot of smart peoplethat have have delved into the original language,
which we understand that even in theoriginal languages, it's not like,
you know, there's a singular wordthat describes this particular English word there,
(28:10):
because and so that's where we getinto interpretations, and we have to figure
out, Okay, where was itused, how else was it used with
in scripture? And so we haveto especially in the Old Testament. To
figure out what the words mean,we have to look at the context of
that word, what comes before,what comes after, And so ultimately we
want people to understand as we enterinto this series here, we want people
to understand that revelation is not supposedto be used as a way to describe
(28:37):
what's going to happen in God's enemies. Revelation is as a or as a
or as some kind of cipher tofigure out when the end of the world.
Here's hey, Jeff, I'll probablysay this a few times when we
talk about this. I'll tell youwhen the end of the world is for
me and you. It's it's withineighty years, right right, years from
(29:00):
now. Neither of us is goingto be That's what matters, you know.
I got so I can put acap on the end of the world
for me. Yeah, you knowexactly. But but other than that,
this is not the Book of Revelationto make it a cipher to try to
figure out And now this you mightedit this out, but in some ways
I think it's just to figure outhow long we can lolligag until we have
(29:23):
to really get it together. Yeah, a lot, that's why we interpret
it sometimes yet let's wait to riveto the end. Yeah, us coming,
Yeah, yeah, And I don'tknow that that's I feel like that
truly is a subconscious thread that runsthrough a lot of this debate is if
we could just know when it's goingto be, we know when we need
to clean our act up. ButJesus says, be a clean it,
(29:45):
like, let's let's get let's tryto get it together now, let's do
the best we can to be alertin a way. Now. Yeah,
And you make a good point therewhen we read revelation in that way as
a cipher for into the world totry to figure out, Okay, is
it today? Is it tomorrow?Or re leading? Is you know?
Is Ukraine the beginning of the end? You know? Is this where everything
(30:07):
gonna be? World War three?And how many times? How many times
in my lifetime has it? Oh? This is? This is it?
Right here? This is it?And what's going to be important for us
to understand is the language talks moreabout the last the last age, and
Jesus had already been clear that theywere living, they were living in that
(30:30):
they they and I guess this mightbe part of the context discussion but they
were not concerned with trying to figureout when that was because Jesus had already
told them they were living in it, right right. Yeah, we live
in a culture that's largely been fearbased. And what's more helpful than a
(30:53):
bunch of dragons running riding out fora horsemen company, you know, a
bunch of fire and earthquake, what'smore helpful to get people in line?
Yeah, than a fear based theology, yeah, which is killing us.
Yeah. I'm not a fan offear. It is used by by empires,
is used by politicians. I getso frustrated with the election season,
(31:17):
with every politician that if the oppositiongets elected, it's gonna be the end
of the world. It's gonna beinto democracy, it can be the end
of civilization, will be into ofAmerica as we know it if we don't
vote for them, if we don'tif the other party gets in power.
And I've been hearing that, I'vebeen hearing my whole life. I started
paying attention run around Clinton. That'swhen I started hearing that stuff. If
(31:40):
Clinton got elected, then you know, the whole role was gonna fall apart,
and we actually had a better youknow, we ain't have any deficits
or even debt. Well, Ithink I think the key is that we
we must remember and this is veryhard for this is very hard for people
right now, but we are notfrom here. Yeah, we're from a
(32:00):
different kingdom, like we're we're weare citizens of the kingdom that in so
many ways is upside down compared tothe kingdoms of the world. And and
and yeah, you know, tosuppose that one one side or the other,
one man made intellectual framework is goingto be the stand in for God
(32:25):
is is ridiculous. We we andI feel like if if that that one
thing, if we could get peopleto to just hear that, hey,
you're not from here when you goto the pole. Yeah, I mean,
you need to really pray about that, you need to think about that,
you need to Honestly, it's goingto be up to you to do
what you feel like you should.But Jesus, Jesus is not on the
(32:49):
ballot. And and honestly, tolive squarely in the Kingdom of God is
going to frustrate both sides. Yeah, and that's what we're going to find
in the Book of Revelation, isthat to follow Jesus puts you in a
bit of a no man's land inwhich you have to be confident of the
one who's called you so that youcan stand when you nobody is fully on
(33:15):
board with you. Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean there is
that tension. I think. Ithink that's one of the things that that
makes us uncomfortable about revelation is thatis there's tension there, and we like,
we like to resolve tension because anytimethere's tension, and whether it be
(33:36):
you know, in our theology,our political ideology, whatever it is,
we we like to And that's wherewe are today, is we have this
polarization of thinking within the church,within within politics, within society. It's
either you're in or you're out.And that was never jesus understanding. It
was all about in proximity to him, living life in proximity to Jesus himself.
(33:58):
Was was the thing? Was therewhen you were talking about being strangers
in this world? This kingdom wasours? Wasn't ours? I was reminded
of Petron's old song not of thisWorld. Yeah, so, I'll be
honest, I didn't get into thatwhen I was young, but I hear
you yes, so so ultimately,revelation matters because in its interpretation, because
(34:22):
it makes the difference in how welive. So if this world is a
lost cause, then why even tryto be a citizen and work for the
good of the of the world inany way? You know, why even
try to care for it? Ifit's just going to explode in a fiery
ball in the end of time.Why does it even matter? And why
(34:44):
does it matter, you know,other than just trying to get people to
heaven? Well, why not justI mean, if that was the point
of the gospel, If that wasthe singular good news in the gospel,
is that one day when we die, if we serve God would get this
good of heaven. If that wasthe point of it, then why not
just create us in heaven? Beginwith? Why why even have this game
of was it? Was it anego thing for God? And we know
(35:07):
it wasn't. But that's almost thequestion that you asked, When that was
the only point, Why even makeus go through all this this effort here
on earth as a testimony to God? If his whole desire was for us
to end up in heaven anyway,or is it a works based thing?
You know, I want to saydangerous, But I think the more the
(35:30):
more diplomatic things just say, it'sjust a waste of time to try to
speculate. But about heaven, andI mean, like like here, we
the scripture tells us things generally,and when we talk about heaven, there's
things seem to be good, there'sseeing, there's there's a tone of judgment.
But we don't understand that completely either. But I will tell you there's
(35:51):
a real when when the disciples askedJesus to teach them how to pray,
what are the things we should askfor? Yep? What is the first
thing after giving honor to God?The very first thing he said to ask
for is that this kingdom will comehere and earth. And I think it's
it's it's a it's a maybe evena subconscious stall tactic to think of spirituality
(36:17):
in terms of heaven or hell,which are both outside of their realm,
like the way people think of itis outside of the realm of these days
that we live here here. Here'swhat we'll find in the Book of Revelation.
Heaven wants to come here. Heavencan land here in our lives and
our homes and our neighborhoods and ourworkplaces, and you know what hell can
(36:42):
too, and and we we actuallywe are involved in choices between heaven and
hell on a daily basis, right, And and I think that rather than
spending time even acting like we havehave any idea what any of that's going
(37:02):
to be like, because we don't, I'll I'll pull the curtain back.
We do not. But what wedo know is that we are to pray
every day when we wake up.We sit on the side of the bed
before we do anything, before weif we could, before we even think
anything. We are to pray,God, bring your kingdom here into my
(37:25):
life and into onto this piece ofground that I occupy, and bring it
through me. Yeah, I thinkit's a great place for us to end
this first episode, and I'm certainlylooking forward to the rest of our series.
Here. If you're listening to this, please, you know, share
it with a friend. Let themknow. I was in the gym working
(37:45):
out the other day and this guy'sentire back of his calf had revelation on
one calf and the beast with allthe eyes on the other calf. You
know, I said, Hey,let us say you're a fan of Revelation.
He said, yeah, so hey, we got a podcast coming up
on it, gave him a carand told them all about it. So
(38:06):
yeah, I mean, that's agreat place to end their Brad, I
look forward to the rest of ourconversations there. But just as we leave
here today, keep this in mindthat when there's anywhere in the Bible,
and this is especially true in Revelation, anywhere that there is a contest between
God's draft and God's mercy, God'smercy always wins, and the Book of
(38:36):
Revelation is going to literally bear thatout. Yeah, absolutely, all right,
brother, Well, thank you verymuch for being here man and being
good talking with you, and we'lltalk with you again in the next episode.
Sounds great. You can be aco creator with God by helping to
echo our voices. Share our episodeand friends and family land on your own
(39:00):
social media accounts, give us positivefive star reviews. The more positive reviews
we have, the more visibility wehave, and the more voices that are
echoed through eternity. We often inviteguests who are serving faithfully year after year,
often in anonymity, and their respectiveroles in ministries God sees them in
(39:23):
reality is as for a good kingdomleader. That's enough. We do not
do what we do for the accoladesof humanity. We do it because we're
called by God. But I believethat God uses people like you and I
to continue those reverberations and echo themthroughout eternity. You can partner with God
by liking and subscribing and writing aquick positive, five star review and again
(39:46):
sharing those voices with friends and familyand on your own social media accounts.
Those reviews will eventually lead to otherguests who have larger platforms that have more
listeners, who will then in turnlisten to the show, and again it
further echoes those voices. Which isthe whole version of the echoes through Attorney
(40:08):
Podcast here is continue echoing those voicesthat God is echoing through Attorney There
The earliest icons of the Resurrection.They showed Jesus standing kicking in the doors
of Hades and reaching down and pullingpeople up. There's the difference between the
way that European colonial Christianity emerged versuswhat Christianity really was from the beginning.
(00:27):
It's not that Jesus is a bossand he's won and you better get on
his team or he's gonna wear youout. It's that Jesus, through the
Resurrection, Jesus kicked in the doorsof hell and is reaching down to pull
people out. Marcus really has saidwhat we do in life echoes through Eternity.
(00:48):
What is your life echoing through eternity? Welcome to Echoes through Eternity with
doctor Jeffrey Skinner. Our mission isto inspire, engage, and encourage leaders
from across the globe to plant missionalchurches and be servant leaders. So join
us and here are the stories ofservant leaders reverberating lives as God echoes them
through eternity, brought to you bymissional Church Planting and Leadership Development and Dynamic
(01:14):
Church Planning International. Welcome into Echoesthrough Eternity. I am your host,
Doctor Jeffrey d. Skinner, Whatis God that going through your life today?
Well, folks, I am excitedfor season three of Echoes through Eternity.
I have thirty episodes planned for thisseason and today is the start of
(01:34):
a six week series on the Bookof Revelation. And I have a friend
of mine who happens to also bemy pastor. It's always good when your
pastor can also be your friend.I have been in situations like that where
I was a pastor of people butwas not necessarily their friends. So kudos
to you, Brad, that we'reable to be both. That's a testament
(01:57):
to you. But anyway, I'vegot riding the studio with me today,
and you know, we had himon last year. He's a pastor of
Mosaic Church in Nazarene and Lilburn,Georgia or Mosaic Church, and then there's
also a French while he's speaking.Contradition is part of that Mosaic and so
we talked about his multicultural contacts andwhat he was doing down there last year.
(02:21):
And you can go to Moaic Atlantadot com check him out if you're
in the Atlanta area. I thinkyou love the church. Plug into it.
Visit us online. You can washyou online and then come visit us,
visit us in person. Good youthpastor there. And Brad has a
one reason I went Brad to helpme with this podcast. He has a
unique ability to kind of break thingsdown in by sizes that are that are
(02:45):
simple enough to digest without overwhelming youand make them understandable. He Now,
what I'm not saying is that hereduces it, because there's a difference when
we reduced something. For example,the Book of Revelation has also been has
often just been reduced to a bookabout the end of times. Then we
(03:06):
we strip it of its meaning,right, it no longer has the meaning
that it's intended to have when wereduce it. Think about the Trinity.
When we reduce the Trinity to simplythree individuals, the Trinity no longer has
the effect that it was intended tohave. It is a mystery. It
is a calling for us to knowGod in his fullness. And then if
(03:29):
there's a question about God and hischaracter and his nature, we can know
that He would rebuild in Christ.But to separate Christ from God would be
heresy and a reduction in Christ.And simply to make Jesus just another man,
an idol of God himself. Andso that's why it happens when we
(03:49):
reduce things, Brad doesn't reduce it. He has the ability to take things
simplify but doesn't strip them of theirmeaning at the same time. And that's
why I invited Brad to do thiswith me. So Brad, welcome in,
brother. It's good to have youhere. Thank you, it's great
to be here. I'm excited.Yeah, we have divided up this up
into just a couple of about sixdifferent episodes here and so today we want
(04:14):
to talk about what it means toread scripture responsibly, right, and so
this is a responsible reading a revelationas what we're calling this, and so
want to unpack what that means.What is a responsible reading of revelation?
What is a responsible reading of scripture? So, Brad, talk a little
bit about that. What do youyou're the one that kind of turned that
(04:35):
phrase there, that responsible reading yourscripture. Talk a little bit about what
you're meaning by that. I thinkthere's a situation that we live in that
we're not always aware of. Idon't think people understand the difference always between
solid biblical theology and what I callfolk theology. Here's the difference. There's
(05:00):
a lot that has been handed downto us by well meaning people. I'm
not demonizing people, but there area lot of things that have been handed
down to us that just simply aren'taccurate. And the reason for that is
that simply there has been a lackof emphasis on education in the American Church.
(05:24):
It's easy to be ordained in alot of different venues without really passing
a test that would make you authoritativeon the scriptures. So what tends to
happen is people with a lot ofpassion but not quite enough education begin to
(05:47):
preach, and the people who lovethem and see the fruits of the spirit
in their lives take what they sayand it gospel. I think pastors need
to understand that. I mean,we know who we are when we see
ourselves in the mirror, but sooften what we say people take much more
(06:13):
seriously than we might remember. Iremember when my youth pastor used to speak.
What he said was it. Ididn't see him as a human,
I saw him as a superhero.And so I think that there is an
epidemic right now of misreading scripture,reading scripture through our lens through a filter
(06:43):
that is a twenty twenty three filter, rather than reading twenty twenty three through
the filter of scripture. I thinkit's a simple tweak, but it's it's
simple, but it's costly. Sowhen we read the Bible through our filters,
(07:05):
we're gonna misinterpret it almost every time. But when we read ourselves through
an authentic reading of scripture, wellthat's an entirely different story. And so
that I feel like we've all we'reall carrying pieces of folk theology that are
(07:26):
not helpful. Here's an example.I had a severe loss when I was
seventeen years old, and I'll neverforget being in the funeral home and a
little lady, her name was Anniemay in Low. She was one of
the sweetest people. She loved Godas much as anybody I have ever known.
(07:46):
But in the receiving line, Iwas hurting. It was a terrible
loss, and she it was anuntimely death. And she came and she
looked at me with those loving eyes, and she hugged me and she said,
Brad, don't worry. One dayyou'll understand why God did this.
Well, I remember thinking, asa seventeen year old well, if God
(08:09):
did this, we've got a problem, right. But what she was working
off of is this folk theology ofeverything happens for a reason. That's something
that gets passed down and said often, and nobody really thinks to question that,
right, But that's not biblical.Yeah, so that's an example of
(08:30):
what we're talking about. The Bookof Revelation is this on steroids. There
are so many opportunities to miss thepoint. Yeah, I remember we were
talking a little bit before the podcasthere. And I love the Book of
(08:50):
Revelation. I have loved the Bookof Revelation since I was a kid.
I love it for a different reasonnow. I used to think the Book
of Revelation was about what was goingto happen to all those people who were
my enemies and who were God's enemiesat the end of time. I used
to think that it was about punishingall those people who didn't agree with us,
(09:11):
you know. Thus, Christians,we were the We were the the
savior of the entire world, andwe had Jesus in our back pocket,
and the rest of those people werejust you know, hoodlums, and they
were all over going to hell andand Revelation was what was going to happen
to them. They'd all get leftbehind and and we would just be yeah,
we we just be up into cloudscelebrating Yay, we won, you
(09:35):
know. And that's why I likedas a kid. Simultaneously, I had
this deep seed fear that regardless ofhow good I was, I was gonna
be one of the ones that gotleft behind. I remember seeing this movie
and again, well meaning people outthere, you know, I don't I
don't want anybody to think that I'mI'm telling you that I am better than
(09:56):
you, or that I'm smarter thanyou or anything like that. That's that's
not what this is about, right, This is just as you said,
a responsible reading. We will clarativeinterpretation. There there can be valid interpretations
where we can agree disagree on thatinterpretation, and then there are interpretations they're
(10:16):
just flat out wrong. Right.Yeah. So I think in terms of
boiling it down, I think,and I think this is true not only
for what we will be discussing,but for Christianity in our society as a
whole. Very smart people do verydumb things with misinformation. Right. It's
(10:39):
not about whether people are capable orsmart. It's not even about whether people
love God. Right, the questionis are we operating off of accurate information?
And in this context, are areis what I'm saying consistent with an
accurate understanding of what the Book ofRevelation was doing and what it was saying.
(11:03):
Yeah, and revelation is singular.Will clarify that to other hear revelations,
it's only one revelation. Yeah,that's happening here and so yeah,
I mean that as that was it. But that movie just scared me,
That Left Behind movie, and itjust steered into my consciousness. And then,
bless their heart, you know,Tim Lahay and Jerry Jenkins released that
(11:26):
the entire series left the series andand look, I don't I never heard
them say that this this is youknow, one fact, I mean they
I always said it was. Itwas a work of fiction there, sure,
but it was based upon what theyconsidered an accurate interpretation of Revelation,
which was based in dispensationalism. Anddispensationalism what I you know, eventually learned.
(11:50):
The reason I love Revelation now isbecause it's not a book of fear.
It is one of the most hopefulbooks in the Book of the Bib
in the is the it filled withall kinds of hope. Even though its
original audience was seven churches within towhom John was writing there, the implications
(12:11):
and the applications are still practical fortoday. The the you know, they
were suffering, suffering under the thumbof an evil empire, I mean one
that that just absolutely was oppressive,and it was their way or the highway,
and had a leader could be reminiscentof maybe political undertones from today,
(12:33):
who thought they were God sure orat least had that God like mentality,
and insisted that himself be worshiped asGod, and anyone who disagreed with that
was tortured and oppressed. Yeah.I don't know if the listeners are aware,
but most of our phrases that haveeven carried into Christian worship, they
(12:56):
are worship. They are phrases thatwere co opted from the worship of Caesar.
So people would be required to sayCaesar is Lord. They would say
there is no other name under heavenby which man can be saved but Caesar.
And so a lot of a lotof the times, even in the
New Testament, when we see thesethese phrases, they carried a lot more
(13:18):
weight back then because they were theywere co opting a worship of a false
god and focusing their language back whereit should be. You were talking about
that movie. I was, Sothis was funny to me because the movie
I remember is a lot older thanthat. Growing up, we used to
have I don't know if you everhad a watch night service on New Year's
(13:39):
Eve. So I'll be honest withyou these days, if I think about
doing anything on New Year's Eve,I want us to look forward like I
want to. I want to.I want us to be hopeful. Right.
But they would show this movie calledThief in the Night. Yeah,
that's oh, that's the one.Yeah. Well, here's what I remember
about that. They would show iton those old reel to reels and it
(14:01):
would scare me to death. Andthe worst part of it was at the
very end when the reel would runout and the film would go and it's
just it was terrifying. That soundto this day of a reel to reel.
It it puts me back for justa second, and you think,
(14:24):
in what in what universe did thechurch think that the best way to enter
a new day was to scare youto death. So that's why I'm here.
Yeah, I mean I am,And you say that we even had
(14:48):
Do you remember this song? Iwish we'd all been ready? Do you
remember that? I loved it becauseDC talked, d C Talk did it
and I loved that song. Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking at the words
that life was filled with guns andwar and everyone got trampled on the floor.
I wish we'd all been ready.Children died, todays grew cold,
a piece of bread could buy abag of gold. I wish we'd all
(15:09):
been ready. There's no time tochange your mind. The sun has come
and you've been left behind. Aman wife asleep in bed. She hears
a noise and turned her head.He's gone. I wish we'd all been
ready. Two men walking up ahill. One disappears, one of us
standing still. I wish we'd allbeen ready. There's no time to change
(15:33):
her mind. The Son of Godhas come, and you've been left behind.
So I think this is important becausewe're talking about so we're moving into
some uncomfortable territory, because I thinkthat it will at least be insinuated,
that maybe the entire context we grewup in has missed some important things,
(15:54):
right, One of the important thingsI feel like we've missed is an understanding
of how we got here to beginwith. So any one of us in
America, not just our faith,but everything we do. It began with
armadas rolling up onto shores and sayingwe're going to give you a choice.
(16:18):
You can love Jesus and become youcan become Christian, or we'll kill you.
Yeah, and I'll be honest,that thread of fear has never really
gone away in the Western Christianity.Yeah. Yeah, And that's such an
important distinction too when we say WesternChristianity, because Christianity was not born in
(16:45):
the West. It was born morein the East. Jesus was in you
know, Jerusalem, who was asa Middle Eastern type country there certainly closer
to the east end is west.And and their way of thinking. What
I think what we don't fully understandis is that when that gives them happened
(17:07):
back after Christianity became the state religionof the Roman Empire, well beyond that,
and so the the popes began toargue over Yeah, when they began
to argue over who's gonna who's gonnabe in power, that's when with the
Church he was unified, and wesplit. It was the church first church
split between East and Western. Sothen the East kind of took up and
(17:29):
they began to develop their own Christianity, and then the West began to get.
In reality, this is our Westernway of Christianity really really has passed
down through the Roman Empire and ina lot of ways, and Greek understanding
and the Greek worship of gods andand all that type of stuff with the
part with the pantheon of Gods andall that. So here here's an here's
an example of that. Before theprinting press and before people you know,
(17:53):
were able to before reading was athing that people took up a lot of
time doing. Theology was passed downthrough icons, paintings, and we we
I think a lot of times whenwe look at these old icons, we
just think, ah, that's weird. But the truth is these were pieces
of theology. Everything in these pictureswas important, and and so in the
(18:15):
Western Church, like since since theGreat Schism and throughout the years, the
most prominent icon of the Resurrection isthis very familiar one where there's like almost
like a tomb and the top ofit's moved over and everybody's sort of sitting
in awe and they're looking up andJesus is he's like floating in the air
(18:38):
like a boss with his hands out, like, you know, like the
conquering savior. And what's interesting hehas he has there's a flag in that
icon somewhere that looks a lot likethe flag of the Crusades. There's this
idea that Jesus has kicked butt andtaken names, you know. But what's
(18:59):
interesting is that that is not Thatis not the way the Resurrection was presented
up until then, and it's notthe way it continued to be. Representing
the Eastern Church, the earliest iconsof the Resurrection, they showed Jesus standing
kicking in the doors of Hades andreaching down and pulling people up. There's
(19:22):
the difference between the way that Europeancolonial Christianity emerged versus what Christianity really was
from the beginning. It's not thatJesus is a boss and he's won and
you better get on his team orhe's gonna wear you out. It's that
Jesus, through the Resurrection, Jesuskicked in the doors of hell and is
(19:45):
reaching down to pull people out.Yeah, yes, it's not reaching into
hell to converse Satan, but reachinginto hell to rescue those in captivity.
And you know, and that's thething. And that's one of the reasons
to bring us back to revelation now, is is that we think of salvation
(20:06):
then as a singular event, asopposed to one that is happening every day.
I mean, I am saved momentby moment by Jesus every time he
breathes, by God, every timehe breathes life in any right, I
mean we wake up and God doesit again. He raises, He does
the sunrise again every day, andit starts come out again every night.
(20:30):
He may not be speaking these thingsin the existence every day, but creation
is a continual process. Right.It wasn't that God created and walked away
and leftist our own device. ThatsGod is still intimately involved in our lives
today. That in and of itselfis salvation. And that's what I love
about revelation is is this is whatgiants communicating to these churches here because they
(20:55):
they have been under such oppression bythis empire that they had no hope of
escaping without the intervention of God himself. One of the things we'll talk about
in future episodes, is that wewant to see everything on a linear scale.
But this salvation itself, it's cyclical. And this the we there's this
(21:17):
idea that you start here and youjust always get better and better and better.
But the truth is, Jeff,it's a roller coaster. It's there,
there's there. We have our wehave times that we're very proud of.
We look back and we're very we'revery thankful that God enabled us to
be that faithful, and then thereare moments that are just really hard.
And I think what's important about Revelationis it was written to Christians who had
(21:41):
a lot of hard decisions to make. It wasn't just do it, Am
I going to love Jesus? Itwas am I going to be able to
even discern between what God's calling meto and what the Empire's calling me to?
What God's calling me to, andwhat the what the social atmosphere is
calling me to? And And thiswhat's beautiful. What we will find is
(22:04):
beautiful about Revelation and about salvation isthat it's not always just linear. It's
it's cyclical, Like we have gooddays and we have bad days. Yeah,
but God's love does not change.Right, God's love continues coming at
us like a like a like aforce, a literal force of nature.
(22:27):
Right. Yeah. One of myfavorite Thellosians in the church in Nazarene,
Te Scott Daniels recently elected as oneof our generals in the church in Nazrene.
He that was a great decision,by the way it was. I
was I applauded that he It wasa lot of drama involved in it.
He had these moments where he wasrising and then and then ay, somebody
(22:48):
started a rumor that, well,we won't go into all the rumors that
people I was about to ask youto please not Yeah, yeah, let's
not let's go into the rumors day. I don't know that I can reel
that. But anyway, he wasoriginally elected, that's what it matters.
And but he did tell a funnystory at his not at his sert,
like a acceptance speech for lack ofa better term. But they called him
(23:12):
up to say a few words andhe said that his grandfather was also elected
or a rising in the polls tobe elected as a general. And then
they broke and somebody started rumor thathe played golf too much. And so
after the break it began to toyou know, he began to wane and
(23:33):
he was not elected and so ScottScott Daniel said, and that might have
been true. He probably did playgolf little too much. Well, I
mean, that's the thing, Idon't know. I don't I don't know
if if you can, I don'twhen I think about playing golf too much,
playing golf too much just makes meangry, So that there could be
something to that true. Yeah,I tell people that I cannot maintain my
(23:56):
holiness or my Christianity and play golf. It's just gospel there. That's just
a temptation I can overcome. Butanyway, one of the things he talks
about, if you're talking about acyclical season of or cyclical view of salvation
there and he talks about that intalking about exile and or the cycle of
Christian living, so to speak.He says that if you look at the
(24:19):
Bible that kind of follows that cycle, that the people of God are kind
of create, you have creation,everything's good, and then they begin to
fall away. And so then whenthey fall away, then end up going
into exile. And then when they'rein exile, they begin to recognize they're
doing bad, and you know,Prophet comes along and calls them back to
(24:41):
God's side, and so then there'sthat season where they are getting better and
then finally they have the season wherethey're back in the Promised Land again.
And so he talks about that wholecycle of living like they're talking about there,
And I think that's so true,is that we don't live life on
a linear scale. And that's notjust say that that we just say.
We just say, well whatever,and we're just going to live however we
(25:03):
want to. But it's just understandingthat try as much as we do,
we're never going to get it exactlyright. Yeah, And it's not a
matter of how good we are,no matter how God you know, it
was Christ working across again in Revelationis about that God's work, Christ working
across that ultimately provides that path throughsalvation. Sorry, I think my phone
(25:26):
deemed and I was trying to turnthat off. Yeah, go back to
what you're saying. Give me,give me that last little snippet because I
was thinking something. Yeah, SoI said that Scott agreed with your your
view of salvation there where it wascyclical and so we in Promised Land,
and then we get going to exileand and come back to the Promised Land.
Yeah. So there's something that Ithink is really important. And you
(25:51):
just described how you just described thenature of scripture. I think it's really
important to understand that there there wasthis turning there was this turning point.
Now people didn't become perfect decide that, you know, they are still good
and bad, but this raised awarenessof the presence of the Holy Spirit really
did shift the trajectory. And Ithink that that's important just as a pastor,
(26:15):
to to help people understand, youknow, God is not a subject
to be mastered. The Holy Spiritis with us, walking with us.
And what we're going to see inthe Book of Revelation is that if it
weren't for this presence of God,who who was with us to lead us
(26:37):
in the right directions and also withus to lead us out of the wrong
directions, Like we don't always getit right. And in the early Church
it was really hard at times,first to discern in the middle of all
the voices what the voice of Jesuswas saying to them, and then to
(27:00):
do it. If only we hadthat audible voice of God to give us
specific instructions there. But then youknow, we've got the Bible and that
and and the Bible is that revelationof God's revelation of God's nature, and
so in that sense, the entireBible is revelation. But then the Book
(27:22):
of Revelation is the revelation of JesusChrist. And that's where we get back
that that most hopeful book of atleast arguably the most hopeable book of the
Bible there and and it's it's arevelation of a message to seven churches,
yeah, in the first century.Yeah, And so we're trying to provide
(27:45):
some historical context here. We won't. We will make sure that people understand
that the original context and and generallyaccept theology has as you said earlier that
you there's a lot of smart peoplethat have have delved into the original language,
which we understand that even in theoriginal languages, it's not like,
you know, there's a singular wordthat describes this particular English word there,
(28:10):
because and so that's where we getinto interpretations, and we have to figure
out, Okay, where was itused, how else was it used with
in scripture? And so we haveto especially in the Old Testament. To
figure out what the words mean,we have to look at the context of
that word, what comes before,what comes after, And so ultimately we
want people to understand as we enterinto this series here, we want people
to understand that revelation is not supposedto be used as a way to describe
(28:37):
what's going to happen in God's enemies. Revelation is as a or as a
or as some kind of cipher tofigure out when the end of the world.
Here's hey, Jeff, I'll probablysay this a few times when we
talk about this. I'll tell youwhen the end of the world is for
me and you. It's it's withineighty years, right right, years from
(29:00):
now. Neither of us is goingto be That's what matters, you know.
I got so I can put acap on the end of the world
for me. Yeah, you knowexactly. But but other than that,
this is not the Book of Revelationto make it a cipher to try to
figure out And now this you mightedit this out, but in some ways
I think it's just to figure outhow long we can lolligag until we have
(29:23):
to really get it together. Yeah, a lot, that's why we interpret
it sometimes yet let's wait to riveto the end. Yeah, us coming,
Yeah, yeah, And I don'tknow that that's I feel like that
truly is a subconscious thread that runsthrough a lot of this debate is if
we could just know when it's goingto be, we know when we need
to clean our act up. ButJesus says, be a clean it,
(29:45):
like, let's let's get let's tryto get it together now, let's do
the best we can to be alertin a way. Now. Yeah,
And you make a good point therewhen we read revelation in that way as
a cipher for into the world totry to figure out, Okay, is
it today? Is it tomorrow?Or re leading? Is you know?
Is Ukraine the beginning of the end? You know? Is this where everything
(30:07):
gonna be? World War three?And how many times? How many times
in my lifetime has it? Oh? This is? This is it?
Right here? This is it?And what's going to be important for us
to understand is the language talks moreabout the last the last age, and
Jesus had already been clear that theywere living, they were living in that
(30:30):
they they and I guess this mightbe part of the context discussion but they
were not concerned with trying to figureout when that was because Jesus had already
told them they were living in it, right right. Yeah, we live
in a culture that's largely been fearbased. And what's more helpful than a
(30:53):
bunch of dragons running riding out fora horsemen company, you know, a
bunch of fire and earthquake, what'smore helpful to get people in line?
Yeah, than a fear based theology, yeah, which is killing us.
Yeah. I'm not a fan offear. It is used by by empires,
is used by politicians. I getso frustrated with the election season,
(31:17):
with every politician that if the oppositiongets elected, it's gonna be the end
of the world. It's gonna beinto democracy, it can be the end
of civilization, will be into ofAmerica as we know it if we don't
vote for them, if we don'tif the other party gets in power.
And I've been hearing that, I'vebeen hearing my whole life. I started
paying attention run around Clinton. That'swhen I started hearing that stuff. If
(31:40):
Clinton got elected, then you know, the whole role was gonna fall apart,
and we actually had a better youknow, we ain't have any deficits
or even debt. Well, Ithink I think the key is that we
we must remember and this is veryhard for this is very hard for people
right now, but we are notfrom here. Yeah, we're from a
(32:00):
different kingdom, like we're we're weare citizens of the kingdom that in so
many ways is upside down compared tothe kingdoms of the world. And and
and yeah, you know, tosuppose that one one side or the other,
one man made intellectual framework is goingto be the stand in for God
(32:25):
is is ridiculous. We we andI feel like if if that that one
thing, if we could get peopleto to just hear that, hey,
you're not from here when you goto the pole. Yeah, I mean,
you need to really pray about that, you need to think about that,
you need to Honestly, it's goingto be up to you to do
what you feel like you should.But Jesus, Jesus is not on the
(32:49):
ballot. And and honestly, tolive squarely in the Kingdom of God is
going to frustrate both sides. Yeah, and that's what we're going to find
in the Book of Revelation, isthat to follow Jesus puts you in a
bit of a no man's land inwhich you have to be confident of the
one who's called you so that youcan stand when you nobody is fully on
(33:15):
board with you. Yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean there is
that tension. I think. Ithink that's one of the things that that
makes us uncomfortable about revelation is thatis there's tension there, and we like,
we like to resolve tension because anytimethere's tension, and whether it be
(33:36):
you know, in our theology,our political ideology, whatever it is,
we we like to And that's wherewe are today, is we have this
polarization of thinking within the church,within within politics, within society. It's
either you're in or you're out.And that was never jesus understanding. It
was all about in proximity to him, living life in proximity to Jesus himself.
(33:58):
Was was the thing? Was therewhen you were talking about being strangers
in this world? This kingdom wasours? Wasn't ours? I was reminded
of Petron's old song not of thisWorld. Yeah, so, I'll be
honest, I didn't get into thatwhen I was young, but I hear
you yes, so so ultimately,revelation matters because in its interpretation, because
(34:22):
it makes the difference in how welive. So if this world is a
lost cause, then why even tryto be a citizen and work for the
good of the of the world inany way? You know, why even
try to care for it? Ifit's just going to explode in a fiery
ball in the end of time.Why does it even matter? And why
(34:44):
does it matter, you know,other than just trying to get people to
heaven? Well, why not justI mean, if that was the point
of the gospel, If that wasthe singular good news in the gospel,
is that one day when we die, if we serve God would get this
good of heaven. If that wasthe point of it, then why not
just create us in heaven? Beginwith? Why why even have this game
of was it? Was it anego thing for God? And we know
(35:07):
it wasn't. But that's almost thequestion that you asked, When that was
the only point, Why even makeus go through all this this effort here
on earth as a testimony to God? If his whole desire was for us
to end up in heaven anyway,or is it a works based thing?
You know, I want to saydangerous, But I think the more the
(35:30):
more diplomatic things just say, it'sjust a waste of time to try to
speculate. But about heaven, andI mean, like like here, we
the scripture tells us things generally,and when we talk about heaven, there's
things seem to be good, there'sseeing, there's there's a tone of judgment.
But we don't understand that completely either. But I will tell you there's
(35:51):
a real when when the disciples askedJesus to teach them how to pray,
what are the things we should askfor? Yep? What is the first
thing after giving honor to God?The very first thing he said to ask
for is that this kingdom will comehere and earth. And I think it's
it's it's a it's a maybe evena subconscious stall tactic to think of spirituality
(36:17):
in terms of heaven or hell,which are both outside of their realm,
like the way people think of itis outside of the realm of these days
that we live here here. Here'swhat we'll find in the Book of Revelation.
Heaven wants to come here. Heavencan land here in our lives and
our homes and our neighborhoods and ourworkplaces, and you know what hell can
(36:42):
too, and and we we actuallywe are involved in choices between heaven and
hell on a daily basis, right, And and I think that rather than
spending time even acting like we havehave any idea what any of that's going
(37:02):
to be like, because we don't, I'll I'll pull the curtain back.
We do not. But what wedo know is that we are to pray
every day when we wake up.We sit on the side of the bed
before we do anything, before weif we could, before we even think
anything. We are to pray,God, bring your kingdom here into my
(37:25):
life and into onto this piece ofground that I occupy, and bring it
through me. Yeah, I thinkit's a great place for us to end
this first episode, and I'm certainlylooking forward to the rest of our series.
Here. If you're listening to this, please, you know, share
it with a friend. Let themknow. I was in the gym working
(37:45):
out the other day and this guy'sentire back of his calf had revelation on
one calf and the beast with allthe eyes on the other calf. You
know, I said, Hey,let us say you're a fan of Revelation.
He said, yeah, so hey, we got a podcast coming up
on it, gave him a carand told them all about it. So
(38:06):
yeah, I mean, that's agreat place to end their Brad, I
look forward to the rest of ourconversations there. But just as we leave
here today, keep this in mindthat when there's anywhere in the Bible,
and this is especially true in Revelation, anywhere that there is a contest between
God's draft and God's mercy, God'smercy always wins, and the Book of
(38:36):
Revelation is going to literally bear thatout. Yeah, absolutely, all right,
brother, Well, thank you verymuch for being here man and being
good talking with you, and we'lltalk with you again in the next episode.
Sounds great. You can be aco creator with God by helping to
echo our voices. Share our episodeand friends and family land on your own
(39:00):
social media accounts, give us positivefive star reviews. The more positive reviews
we have, the more visibility wehave, and the more voices that are
echoed through eternity. We often inviteguests who are serving faithfully year after year,
often in anonymity, and their respectiveroles in ministries God sees them in
(39:23):
reality is as for a good kingdomleader. That's enough. We do not
do what we do for the accoladesof humanity. We do it because we're
called by God. But I believethat God uses people like you and I
to continue those reverberations and echo themthroughout eternity. You can partner with God
by liking and subscribing and writing aquick positive, five star review and again
(39:46):
sharing those voices with friends and familyand on your own social media accounts.
Those reviews will eventually lead to otherguests who have larger platforms that have more
listeners, who will then in turnlisten to the show, and again it
further echoes those voices. Which isthe whole version of the echoes through Attorney
(40:08):
Podcast here is continue echoing those voicesthat God is echoing through Attorney There
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