Revelation All_things_new_Part2 w/Rev. Brad Bellomy

In Part 2 of our series, Dr. Jeffrey D. Skinner and Rev. Brad Bellomy continue their insightful discussion and responsible reading of the Book of Revelation.
**Episode 2: Context - The Seven Churches - Impact of Constantine**
In this episode, we delve into the historical context of the seven churches mentioned in the Book of Revelation. Situated in Asia Minor, which corresponds to modern-day Turkey, these churches played a significant role in early Christianity. However, their context was marked by unique challenges:
**1. Roman Occupation:** During the time of the book's writing, around 95-96 AD, the Roman Empire held sway over Asia Minor. The seven churches were scattered across this province, and their existence was intertwined with the broader Roman rule.
**2. Persecution:** The early Christians faced periods of persecution within the Roman Empire. Emperor Domitian, known for his authoritarian rule, demanded unwavering loyalty to the Roman state, even to the extent of being worshiped as divine. This created a hostile environment for Christians who refused to bow to the emperor's demands, resulting in their persecution.
The emergence of Constantine, a pivotal figure in Roman history, would later bring about significant changes. Prior to his reign, Christianity existed as a fringe religion, embraced mainly by the marginalized and oppressed. However, as Constantine embraced Christianity, it transformed from a faith of the few to a religion of the masses. This shift had profound implications for the future of Christianity.
**3. Unveiling the Meaning of "Apocalypse"**
Before we proceed, let's clarify the meaning of "apocalypse." In contemporary language, the term is often associated with visions of the end of the world—meteors, global warfare, or even the potential demise of humanity and the planet. However, the original Greek word, "apokalypsis," from which "apocalypse" is derived, carries a different connotation.
"Apocalypse" signifies an unveiling or revealing, and it can also denote the disclosure of hidden knowledge or secrets. In the context of the seven churches in Asia Minor, John's message to them was akin to saying, "Hey, there's a secret message meant for you. Get your 'decoder ring'!" (with a touch of humor).
As we explore the historical and theological landscape of the seven churches and their place within the Roman Empire, we gain valuable insights into the early Christian experience. Join us in Episode 2 as we uncover the layers of history and meaning behind the Book of Revelation.

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Episode Transcript

(00:02):
If we understand the message of theBook of Revelation. Here's what I can
tell you. We through us,through the Body of Christ, God will
absolutely wipe tears from people's eyes andpain can end because of what God is
doing through his body in the world. So in the middle of all the

(00:23):
things I don't know, I doknow that, and I feel like that's
what we've lost sight of. Marcusreally has said what we do in life
echoes through eternity. What is yourlife echoing through eternity? Welcome to Echoes
through Eternity with Doctor Jeffrey Skinner.Our mission is to inspire, engage,

(00:46):
and encourage leaders from across the globeto plant missional churches and be servant leaders.
So join us and hear the storiesof servant leaders reverberating lives as God
echoes them through eternity. Brought toyou by Mational Church Planting and Leadership Development
and Dynamic Church Planning International. Welcomehe that goes through atturnity. I am

(01:08):
your host, Doctor Jeffrey D.Skinner. I am joined in the studio
today by Reverend Brad Bellamy. Andif you missed the first episode, we
won't recap everything. Sitting there youcan go back and listen to it.
But but Brad, I will justresay this. Brad has a really good
gift of being able to bring thingsdown in simple, bite sized forms without

(01:30):
reducing them to basic meaningless meaninglessness.He does a really good job of that.
And he is my pastor at MosaicChurch and Nazarene are Mosaic Atlanta down
in Lilberg, Georgia. We driveis so good. Let me just tell
you this. It is so goodthat my family drives almost forty miles every
Sunday just to be at Mosaic Atlanta. So if you're in the area,

(01:55):
we're trying to do something real man, check in there and come check us
out, and you check us outon line of Mosaic Atlanta, but also
visit the church in person at CoalDrive in Little in Georgia. Welcome in,
Brad. It's good to have youhere today. And so we're today
we're gonna talk about the second Thisis our second episode of Revelations. So

(02:15):
the first episode we talked about youkind of gave you an overarching view of
of you know, where we're goingand things like that. This episode we
want to talk about specifically the contextin which it was written, in the
seven churches to which Revelation is written. With John his only isle of Patmas,
and he has his vision, hebegins to write, This is who

(02:37):
he was writing to? Is theseseven churches, the Church in Ephesus,
Smyrna, Pergrimam, Thieterira, Sorryist, Philadelphia, and Laodesia. Those are
the seven churches to whom he waswriting. That is not just say that
Revelation has no bearing on us today. If that were true, that's why
we don't read the Bible in aliteral flat reading. Else If that were

(03:00):
true, then the only meaning theBible would ever have would be to the
very original audience to whom it waswritten. That is not the case.
The Bible is full of depth,full of meaning, and is living as
applicable today, especially Revelation, asapplicable today as it was when it was
written to these seven churches. There. So Brad talked to us a little

(03:23):
bit about that, talk about thisoriginal context and kind of what you see
there, the impact of Constantine priorto that, you know, and all
everything involved in that. We leftthe first episode on a cliffhanger that I
didn't realize until afterward. But wewere talking about the responsible reading of scripture.

(03:43):
There are basic questions that if youwant to read scripture responsibly, and
this would be these questions apply toeach book of the Bible, very basic
questions that have to be answered,and once they're answered, a lot of
things that might not have made sensebefore makes sense. In fact, a
lot of areas where some people willsay, well, this part of the

(04:04):
Bible contradicts this. It's not thatat all. It's it's once you answer
these questions, you understand. Andthese are the questions. Who wrote this,
Who wrote this piece of literature,Who did they write it to?
Who are the recipients? And whatis the occasion of Why was this written?

(04:27):
So? Who wrote this? Whoare they writing to? You know,
it may it may seem like alot of work, but I think
that understanding the Scripture is worth doingsome work, and and to understand the
context, who was written to,when was it written in, what what
was going on in history on themacro level and on the on the micro

(04:49):
level, what was going on inthat place that provided the occasion for the
writing of this book. And alot of people stopped there. But I
I think the most critical question areare at least as important as the others,
is what type of literature is this? Because they're the you know,

(05:12):
like the average Joe might not realizethat the Bible. Some books of the
Bible are poetry. Some books ofthe Bible are history. Some books of
the Bible they fall in this genrecalled prophecy. You know, we'll probably
get to get at some point totalk about this. The Book of Revelation,
it had tones of a of avery nuanced type of literature called apocalyptic

(05:40):
literature. A lot of the NewTestament they are letters and so to honest,
and if you get a good Bible, a good studied Bible, most
of the time the introduction, acouple page introduction will give you the answer
to these questions. If you'll readthat, who wrote this, who did
they write it to, what wasgoing on? And what is the occasion?

(06:00):
Why did they write this? Andwhat type of literature is this?
And what was the message? Soyeah, like you said, we're not
trying to lock Revelation into the firstcentury, but in order to understand what
it has to say to us twentycenturies plus later, we have to understand
what it meant. Then, Yeah, and apply that to our lives.

(06:27):
So yeah, so it to boilit down. The Book of Revelation is
addressed to seven churches in Asia Minor, which is really where the Gospel was
spreading, and these churches were underthe rule of the Roman Empire by the
time the Book of John was written. There were cycles of persecution. Some

(06:51):
were really bad. Some were directpersecution, like if you're a Christian and
you cannot worship Caesar, we're justgoing to kill We're gonna make a sport
of you, and then we're goingto kill you. That's sort of the
way it happened. But actually,at the time that this was being written
to the churches, it was itwas a more interesting version of persecution.

(07:16):
The decree was I think it wastrajan, but you might have to delete
that if we find out that's wrong. That the edict was that not not
that it wasn't an official persecution,but individuals could bring up If individuals brought
up charges on Christians, then persecutionwould set in. And what was happening

(07:41):
then was it wasn't even persecution properfrom the empire as much as it was
like when anytime Christians are the waythey lived or the kingdom. They were
trying to embody. When it rubbedpeople wrong, they could report them and
they would be persecuted. So actuallyit became these churches were living in a

(08:03):
much more personal time where it wasn'tthe emperor, it was their it was
their neighbors. Their neighbors would levelan accusation, and that's when intense persecution
would say in. And so yougot that. You also have a lot
of readers don't understand that the earlyChristians considered themselves we call them Christians,

(08:24):
they considered themselves Jews, Jewish peoplelike people of the Jewish faith, and
then there were there were extra controversiesbetween Jews and gentile believers. So these
these were these were Jewish people,people of the Jewish faith who believed that
Jesus was the Messiah. And thenobviously Jesus made it a big, fat

(08:46):
point to spread that out to peoplebeyond Israel. And and even in the
early Church there wasn't just cycles ofpersecution, but there was there was a
lot of tension between people who wereJewish of Jewish ancestry and people who followed
Jesus who were gentile and and weremore Hellenized the Greek culture was making its

(09:11):
way, and a lot of thepractices associated with being a good citizen of
Rome, you know, became atodds with the way of Jesus. And
that's that's a lot of what Johnwants to talk about. Yeah, And

(09:33):
I think during the time of whenJohn wrote this, I think was it
Domititon. Domiton that was the emperor. I think during like ninety five to
ninety six or somewhere along there whenJohn was written there, he would some
of the evidence of the way hewould he would treat the Christians as like

(09:54):
Nero, he would he would aneven donation. Who was who was the
other Roman emperor there? They wouldjust they'd boil them in oil. I
mean if they if they if theydidn't like what they're doing, or or
you know, use them as they'dline them and crosses along the highway as
a warning to the other Christians.And that wasn't every day. It was

(10:16):
just like you said, it wascycles that was going through there. But
that's kind of what they were undergoing. And so John had been exiled to
that out of the Pathmos and sohe's writing back this book to these seven
churches here as an encouragement and thenalso as a reminder that you need to

(10:37):
remain faithful. There you did areally good sermons series on the Seven Churches
in Revelation and pulled, you know, resources from all different places and just
you know, really unpacked even thewhat was happening in those specific churches at
the time there. I was reallyimpressed with you to that. But yeah,
I mean, and so that isthe context in which Revelation would be

(11:00):
written there. That's the context ofwhat was happening And so you don't just
come around and say nero or oryou know, the Emperor is not God.
You don't say that unless you wantto immediately lose your life. Right,
I'm not hearing you. There yougo. Yeah, So there are

(11:20):
some important things to us since we'rein the business in this podcast of trying
to have a faithful reading of Revelation, there are some things that are important.
One is, scholars are pretty sureit wasn't a disciple John. Scholars
are pretty sure this was a majorleader in the early Church who pastored at
the Church of Ephesus. That's justone thing to remember. Also, when

(11:43):
I've heard of the exile to theisland of Patmos, I sort of used
to think of it as like SanQuentin, you know what I mean,
like this prison island, But thatwasn't the case. Emphesis was a place
exile for someone like John. Itwould have been that for a time,
probably because of something he taught oryou know, some way that he didn't

(12:05):
fall in line with the empire.For a time, he was sent to
live on the island of Patmos.He would have lived in a home probably
wasn't phenomenal, but he wasn't youknow, chained to the floor or anything
like that. But he was beingmarginalized for his speaking the Gospel. And

(12:26):
I think that that's I think that'sreally important to understand that even when it
wasn't full on persecution and there wasstill a lot of marginalization going on,
what was happening under Domitian was thatin reality Christians were amazing citizens of Rome,

(12:46):
and Christians were very supportive of Rome. In fact, Paul tells them
in Romans to you know, honoryour leaders and be good citizens. And
so there's a lot of misunderstand likethat Christians were just always you know,
against the Roman Empire. They weren't. They were great citizens, probably model

(13:07):
citizens, The problem was there wasa requirement to burn incense as an offering
to declare that Caesar was God right, and that is that is the thing
that they they couldn't do. Andsome emperors, some emperors didn't outright persecute

(13:30):
them. They just got testy ifpeople would bring up charges. But Demitian
was one that well, the hammerfell hard when Christians would not offer worship.
You know, incense. Incense wasalways a symbol of prayer, still
is in the liturgical church, isa symbol of our prayers rising to God.
And they just wouldn't do that toCaesar. So John ribs in these

(13:54):
symbols to these seven churches in waysthat they would under stand, but Dimitian
would not. I caught him Dalenton, My Greek and Roman are not good,
but Dimitian Greek and Roman are notgood. But so so anyway,
these symbols they would have understood,like the seven candlesticks, you know,

(14:16):
and we'll get specifically into some ofthese these symbols in the third, but
those were representatives of you know,the of the seven churches here, and
so just wanting to understand that thatthis was the encouragement. The secrecy was
used to symbolism to allow the earlyChristians to communicate their message discreetly as an
openly opposing the Roman Empire. Againnot to discourage from being good citizens,

(14:41):
but to make sure that you maintainthat Caesar was not Lord, that that
there is a difference there. Thereis a guy and he is not it
regardless of how comfortable you are financially, regardless of how comfortable you may be
in in the Roman Empire. Youknow how good life you're is, how
good your life is. He isnot the source of life, but God

(15:05):
is always your sources of life.As something that's that's interesting that I don't
I don't hear a lot of talkabout these days is the massive shift that
would be undergone by the descendants ofJudaism. So this is the first time
when Christianity was not a nationalistic thing. I mean, you think about this

(15:31):
like, well, I say,Christianity my bad. Like faith in God
and the Old Testament, it was, I mean it it was hard to
pull those two apart. And andI think that we still to this day,
to this day, we have thosesame undertones that people want to make
Christianity and some some type of nationality. They want to make them one.

(15:54):
And but what we're seeing in Revelationis that that's not that is not what
we are called to be sold inlight the entire world, to live among
the entire world. And so youbegin to see the Christians in these seven
churches are struggling with telling the differencebetween their faith and their nationalism. And

(16:15):
I'll be honest, like for peoplewhose ancestry was Jewish, I would bet
you this was a really tough strugglebecause there was not that dichotomy for them,
and well for their ancestors, theywere the people of God. But
now there were all kinds of pressurescoming from empire, and even an empire

(16:37):
that was at times wanting to alignitself with Christianity, which made things very
complicated. But this is the timewhen you know, we're beginning to realize
that we're a kingdom that isn't ofthe world, and we live among the
world. And you're right, andthat confused to be struggled today, I
think that we have to continually remindourselves of is that the well, let

(17:03):
me back up. The the attractionof empire living, so to speak,
is that it is expedient and youget almost instantaneous gratitude, an instantaneous reward
when you do things the way theempire asked you to do them. And

(17:23):
we see that today. I meanthere's you know, almost instantaneous and and
so for for your I mean,it feels really good to get revenge,
so to speak, you know,I mean, that's that's just you.
That's our base animal instinct. Somebodydoes something to you, you do it
back, and you get revenge.You know, you remember the Gulf War,

(17:44):
you know, if you if Ithink it was sports Coffee said you
bring a knife to the fight.We're gonna bring a gun. You know,
you bring a gun, We're gonnabring a tank. And the the
idea of being that we're gonna hityou with twice as much, ten times
as much as you ever hit us. So don't you dare hit us.
There's some safety in there, somesecurity in that, and that is what

(18:04):
the Roman Empire brought to excuse me, brought to the Christians. There was
that security, but as we talkedabout in the first episode, we're called
to live in that in between times. Christians, we have to live in
that tension, and it's that tensionthat causes us to trust in God for

(18:29):
his provision. It's that tension,that trusting God for our security, not
in a state empire or national empireor anything like that. In this particular
podcast, my mind is racing alot because I want to be sure that
we're being you know, accurate andlater, you know, in the in

(18:51):
the third century, I believe itwas Roman nationalism and Christianity really aligned,
but at this point that had nothappened, right, and things were things
were tough. I like, so, I'm I'm vibing with what you said,
because it is it isn't it wouldn'tit just be easier if we could
just have them have Christianity work inCongress and I don't have to do it
on my street or like I again, that's a that could be a little

(19:17):
pessimistic, but I think that subconsciouslywe just we we gravitate toward the easy
way. And you know, Christiannationalism, however, it has operated in
different places at different times. Youknow, first of all, that term
is ridiculous, Like we can talkabout that on another entire series. But

(19:41):
you know, like if we canlegislate the Kingdom of God, it's not
really as incumbent upon us as individualsto to to to bring that to life
in our own neighborhoods, because thewe just want the government can do that.
And I think that the idea thatthat the Kingdom of God would ever
be left to a national government tolegislate is probably the craziest thing I've that

(20:06):
I've I've heard concerning faith that wewe are aliens, foreigner, foreigner aliens
got a whole different context now wewe we are foreigners in whatever land we
live in, and that's not abad thing. It's a good thing because
it's the Kingdom of God that iskind of the wind behind us. And

(20:29):
man, if we could if wecan hear the message of Revelation throughout this
podcast and here that that this kingdom, if we can stand in this and
live in this, in the middleof all the all the pulls, we
will experience something that is otherworldly,the call of Christians. Like like you

(20:52):
said, I mean that the drawof allowing it in today's context, draw
of allowing Christians as the Church tobe in you know, the equation with
our nation to be in our nationis that it takes responsibility away from us
and so loving our neighbor, youknow, we can just legislate that our

(21:17):
neighbor has to obey the rules ofthe kingdom, and then we don't have
to worry about being that faithful witnessanymore. It's just it's just law right.
And as you said, that werenot yet there in the Roman Empire.
It would come later, but therewas still a level as long as
you did what the empire didd toldyou do. There was a level of

(21:37):
comfort that you had with the levelwith the Roman Empire there because like you
said, they're botle citizens. Evenif there was some discomfort there, you
as far as your worship goes,as long as you did what the empire
has to do, you were goodto go. So there is a I
think, and I think that's importantto know in Revelation is that is ultimately
the call that John as you ofthese seven churches here is to remain faithable,

(22:02):
to keep your trusting God, andto be good citizens of the of
the empire. But simultaneously, don'tdon't forget that your citizenship remains as a
part of the Kingdom of God.Well, and that's that that goes back
to Jesus' call to be salt andsalt and light. What does salt do
salt salt flavors that which doesn't tasteall that great and light, It eliminates

(22:27):
darkness. It helps people to seeand and so you know, Jesus told
us you are the light of theworld. You are the salt of the
earth. I think, you know, it's it's pretty clear what the lamp
stands symbolized. You know, thechurches through are the light in the world.
And I think that to understand thatwe our calling is is to be

(22:49):
an alternative too to the the world'sways, even though they're competing, to
the to the competing desires of theworld. Our call is to be a
light in the middle of that thatgets dark. It also gets very bland
when I mean think about today.We can't we can't turn to the right

(23:11):
or the left without well that wasinteresting part of the time. We we
we we we just can't hardly doanything without having to listen to fighting and
bickering about who's right and who's wrong, and politics and and and it's just
really it's dangerous when we begin tothink that Jesus is on one of those
sides. And so yeah, thisthis is the issues that we are facing

(23:36):
now. We're going to find out. As we understand some things about Revelation,
they are not new, right,These are issues that have existed since
well man, these are human.This is part of the human condition.
Yeah, absolutely it is. Imean Thalm said, you know, there's

(24:00):
nothing new under the sun, right, and it just seems like we continue
to repeat those issues within the boatthere and yet and yet there is something
new. The title of this isall Things New. What is new under
the sun is Jesus Christ and thislight that has come into the world.

(24:22):
And this is what's exciting about revelationis Revelation is reminding these early believers that
the light's not coming from Rome.The light's not going to come from from
even your work guilds and the organizationsyou're a part of, or the things
you participate in. The light comesfrom Christ. Right, That's what's new.

(24:45):
Yeah, that is that is That'strue. I should have should have
been a little more careful about myworrying there. But what I mean is
the sin of the world, thethings that we that those are not new,
you know, those the fighting thatwe have, the division you know
you even had, I mean,you can say it as far back as
as the Old Testament where you hadthe prophetic and the priestly. You know,

(25:07):
we got the two kind of thinktwo sides of thinking there. The
prophetic being being called to i meanpassed with calling the people of God to
be the people of God, andthe priestly concerned with basically the people of
God thriving and keeping clean, livingand making sure that that they you know,

(25:30):
don't touch dead things and don't touchblood, and wash your hands before
you the basic survival stuff, youknow, we look at today, but
then it was couch in religious terminology. Yeah, and I think that the
idea of what's clean and what's notis something that is really at play here.
You know, this is it wasRichard Rhorr the first stage of spiritual

(25:52):
development, the first stage of spiritualdevelopment that he says that seventy five percent
of Christians get stuck in sometimes nevermove out of. It's called cleaning up.
And that's that's this phase where we'rejust it's there's a lot of superficial
change. There's a lot of wellit's just good, it's not bad.
There's a lot of passion, alot of energy. But but there we
have you know, we grow up, we grow up, and it seems

(26:15):
that there's always been this conversation betweencleaning up and and growing up. And
what I've found, what I'm beginningto notice, is that there is there,
there have been these two lines evento this day. You know,
there's there's was in Israel. Therewas the priestly, which was connected with
the nation in big ways. Therewere the profits that sort of lived in
the you know, they dressed incamel's hair and and and lived in the

(26:40):
woods. You know, in theearly Church. What we're going to find
after the kind of acceptance of Christianityin Rome and the Church becoming you know,
intertwined again as you're going to seemonastissism rise out, and that these
those are the profits of that age. There are these two lines. There's
always this tendency for religion to gettied up in empire, but there have

(27:03):
always been these these people called byGod to step out of that and speak
to it. Yeah, and solet's let's talk a little bit now that
we've kind of talked about in thefirst episode. We are overarching, and
then we talked about the specifically thecontext now of revelation. But let's talk
about let me I want to right, Before we get into some of the

(27:26):
past interpretations, I want to talkabout dispensationalism, right, and that is
the I think the operative interpretation that'smost prevalent within at least evangelical Christianity today
is that dispensationalism. And I meanthat's where Left Behind was pulled from.

(27:47):
That's where the movie A Thief anda Knight was pulled from. That coming
from the scripture for I come thiefin the night. No man knows the
day inn the hour, and theyonly the Father in Heaven knows that.
And with this idea that you know, because it's gonna be such a secret
time, you've always got to beready. And if you won't take a
message, if you won't take amessage out of revelation, that is based

(28:08):
in that rather than waiting, youknow, okay, let me wait til
last minute. I remember when Iwas in college, eighty eight Reasons why
Jesus Is coming Back in nineteen eightyeight, and that was a little booklet
going around that you can buy fora couple of dollars. And then you
know, when Jesus didn't come backin nineteen eighty eight, he published a
new book and do you remember thename of that new book. I don't

(28:30):
eighty nine reasons why Jesus Is comingback? Wow, And he sold in
for like two dollars eighty nine cents, And you could think about that one
too, And then the positive thingis now he would only have to come
up with twenty three you know what. I hadn't thought about that. Somebody
needs to tell him. But therewas a guy and what was it,

(28:51):
Harold. I can't remember the guy'sname, but he took out billboards in
Nashville back right before the pandemic.It was and around again that Jesus.
You know, this is the yearthat Jesus is coming back. But rather
than taking that track, why don'twe just take the track? Why don't
we just always if you want tolive in fear of the rapture, rather

(29:14):
than trying to use it as away to predict when Jesus is coming back,
just use it like the seven virginsand just always live your life,
always ready for Jesus return and readyto welcome him into your home. You
know, why not? Why notdo that? This is one of the
the big losses in the way thatpeople have understood or or or talked talked

(29:41):
about revelation and it's this, Jeff, Jesus is coming right now. Jesus
is coming to us. I hopeJesus will help us to think through this
podcast like the spirit of God iswith us. Jesus is constantly coming,
the God is coming to us.I don't see that as much as a

(30:03):
fear. People can use that,as you know, for fear, But
to me, it's just a beautifulthing like that that in spite of all
of of of me, my story, Jesus still coming. That's amazing.
Yeah, let me ask you.We haven't really talked about this, but
you read an important question. Doyou think you know absent this this you

(30:25):
know, paradise idea of the cloudsand heaven and all that stuff. I'm
not saying as don't exist. I'mjust saying that Jesus coming here, his
whole point of coming here was notjust to get us there. This idea
that before I go to prepare aplace for you in my father's house.
For many mansions, that was thatwas a reference to their society where the

(30:48):
husband will go back to the father'shouse and will build on rooms in preparation
for the bride and everybody, generationafter generation after generation will continue to live
within. There's house there within withinJudaism. So that's the way he's referencing
there, not this you know wherewe'd have this mansion and you know behind
the purtigates and and forever live there. So that's when I when I talk

(31:11):
about I'm not saying that heaven doesn'texist or anything like that. I'm just
absolutely our focus was on the kingdom, not just dont getting to heaven.
So that being said, do youthink that you know in kingdom speak here
that there is a time where sufferingabsolutely ends and the tension does disappear?

(31:37):
Well, I mean in the spiritof revelation, I hope. So yeah,
I hope. So I mean thatthat's what I'm working toward, Like
when I get up in the mornings, that's that's that's the kingdom I'm trying.
I hope and and and I'm notI'm not saying don't don't read anxiety

(31:57):
in that. I'm not nerve.I'm not nervous about it. But I
mean the hope that drives us isthe promise that God will wipe every tear
from our eye and and there andthere will be you know, I have
no idea what heaven or I haveno idea what happens when this body shuts
down. But I have a realsense that something happens. And what I

(32:21):
hope, I hope my faith ismade sight somehow. I mean, I
hope that whether it's you know,just going back to that from which I
came, whether it's the spiritual reality, whether it's you know, Jesus busting
out of the clouds like a boss. I don't I just one of the

(32:42):
one of the scriptures that's it justkeeps me going, is is this one
about faith being made sight. Ican't wait until I'm able to see not
dimly. I can't wait till Ican see clearly, because I know that
I see dimly right now. Andso, Jeff, I hope. So
I think if we understand the messageof the Book of Revelation, here's what

(33:07):
I can tell you we through us, through the body of Christ, God
will absolutely wipe tears from people's eyes, and pain can end because of what
God is doing through his body inthe world. So in the middle of
all the things I don't know,I do know that, and I feel

(33:30):
like that's what we've lost sight ofyeah, yeah, yeah, so I
mean that we agree then I justknew I felt like that there would be
one day where the Kingdom of Godwas fully realized. Now, I mean,
we talk about it, well,that sounds great. It is to
come. And I've heard people usethe analogy of a train. A train

(33:52):
has arrived, and the train beingthe Kingdom of God. A Kingdom of
God has arrived, it is arrivingand will continue to arrive. Oh yeah,
but I do hope that one dayand feel like that one day there
is going to be a time wherethe Kingdom is absolutely fully realized on earth
as it is in heaven. Thedanger of words is that, you know,

(34:16):
John even says, there's so muchelse going on here and I can't.
I can't describe it. I don'tthink I don't. I don't think
it's the best idea to just pushaway, you know, to the extent
that the scripture gives us some thingsto hold on to. I don't think
we should push that away because itdoes pain a beautiful picture, like we're

(34:37):
talking about God here, like,can we please stop thinking that we can
do justice to that? We cannot, We cannot. But this this word
picture of a new a new new, of a new Jerusalem, or of
a new Earth where pain is nomore, and and where Satan, whatever

(34:59):
Satan is, you know, whateveris running around accusing everybody and causing all
kinds of division, it is putto rest. Well, that's a beautiful
picture. And if I had tochoose whether to live with that or not,
I think I choose to live withit. I like that picture.
So I mentioned it a couple oftimes, and then we end up I

(35:21):
ended up taking us in a differentdirection. But but I want us to
specifically talk about dispensationalism because it isso popular. And first of all,
I wants to understand that dispensationalism isnot written in the Bible. It was
developed by John Darby, was itwas, You know, there are elements
that he uses from within Christian writingsto develop it, But as far as
systematizing it and the thinking, asfar as these various dispensations are seasons and

(35:47):
eras of living in the kingdom andthings like that, Darby's the one that
developed all that. He was inthe nineteenth century Anglo Irish Bible nature.
He was an influential figure in PlymouthBrethren movement, ironically, a Church in
Nazarene has a few roots in thePlymouth Brethren thinking there and it's not,

(36:10):
you know, the Nazarene. Justfor those who may be listening, if
you follow the Church in Nazarene's familytree, we can trace, we trace
back to our Median but you canbe kind of a hodgepodge of different little
denominations that kind of came together,including Methodism being the largest to form the
Church in Azarene and so Plymouth Brethrenbeing one of those. There's our medius

(36:31):
James Armenius is part of that aswell, And it's too long to go
into, but that's why I'm referencingthere when I talk about that. But
what he basically says is that,I mean it gained traction in the nineteenth
and twentieth centuries when it was placedinto the Schofield Bible, right, and
so at that point when it's writteninto the Bible, people began to internalize

(36:55):
it. So it was written inthe Bible. So now it must be
true Christians not at that time,not being as educated as they are today,
did not realize that. Prior tothat those elements were not in the
Bible. It was only in thatSchofield Bible, and then it began to
be used in a seminary. Ithink it was in Dallas Theological Seminary that

(37:19):
it was. I don't know thatit began to be used, but that's
where it kind of gained most ofthe popularity, and it began to kind
of, over the years began tokind of filter down through there because of
the Bible. But it just saysthere's distinct dispensations several eras of the biblical
history. So you got innocence,which is before the fall, and in
consciousness, which is from the fallto Noah. And then you've got human

(37:42):
government post flood, and in thosepromise which was Abraham to Moses, and
in the Law which was Moses toChrist, and in grace Pentecost to rapture,
and in the millennial kingdom, whichis the number and naming of the
dispensations that can come vary and alongwith dispensations and things like that, and

(38:04):
so dispensationalism emphasizes a consistent literal interpretationof the Bible, especially on prophetic messages,
and that leads to particular views aboutthe end time the including belief of
the pre tribulation, post tribulation,there's mid tribulation, and all these different
ones, and these crazy charts thatpeople, you know, create that looks

(38:25):
like plumbing in a wall and somekind of test tube thing. And you
see all these different charts out there, and just look up dispensationalism and charts
on the Internet and they'll all popup and you'll see the different ones out
there, if you won't see apicture of it there. But that's what
dispensationalism is. And I just wantpeople to understand that it is not a

(38:46):
biblical it's not necessarily biblical. It'snot Prior to the nineteenth century, no
one like the Revelation, the peoplewho heard this, the seven churchs in
Revelation didn't understand it that way,and prior to the ninth teenth century,
no one understood that way. Itwas only into John Darby began to do
that. And then it got intoa lady I can't remember her name as

(39:07):
White or or something like that.And she's connected with the Seventh day Adventist
and she she decided after Darby didn'tyou know, get traction that you know,
she had just figured out that Jesuswas going to come back on this
particular day, so everybody sold herpossessions. They gathered on a hill waiting
for Jesus to come back, andthen he didn't come, and then they

(39:30):
they figured she figured out, Imade a calculation, eire, and so
he'll be back the next next year. And so that, you know what,
it's ironic. What's ironic Jesus wasJesus was coming on that hill?
I don't even know. Yeah,So I have a bit of a d
D. And I got to tellyou I was zoning a little bit.
And there were two things, twothoughts when you were talking about dispensationalism that

(39:52):
we're just running through my head.The first thought was was this if if
I had five dollars for every boxwe've tried to put God in, yeah,
I would be a rich man.Why And you know, and it's
not I'm not not even just kindof chastising them a little bit and saying
why do we do this? Becausethe second thought was I don't even care

(40:15):
about dispensation like that is that's justthat's a waste of time, right what?
And I'm with you, like,I'd like, why do we keep
why do we do this? AndI don't think it's fair for even us,
because it's funny how God always agreeswith us, right, I mean,
I say this to my people allthe time. One of the things

(40:37):
that should really make us understand whowe are in relation to God is that
God seems to always agree with us. And even when we changed our mind,
it's because we realize God saw somethinga different way. I mean,
how convenient is that we we wehave we we spend So if we took
the time that we've spent over theyears trying to play the scripture under our

(41:02):
dominion, if we had taken thattime being the body of Christ, what
would the world look like if weI mean, and and how much arguing
would there not have been? Right? And so I mean, yeah,
yeah, I'm with you. I'mglad you brought that up, because that's

(41:23):
just not Listen, we you andI don't know specifically how all this you
know it plays out what's in God'smind all the time, but we do
know that that idea is just acouple of hundred years old, and we
don't I think you and I thinkwe probably shouldn't spend a ton of time

(41:43):
with that. Yeah, yeah,I mean, and I'm bringing up only
because what's important. It's important toknow the beliefs that we have that don't
just come in a vacuum, right, They're none just dropped out of heaven.
And even as we read Genesis,we recognize that Genesis was written in
a particular culture at a particular timeto a particular people, and and wasn't

(42:07):
just dropped in a book to Mosesby God Sky said here's how I created
Earth. On the first day,you know, there there was nothing there
and then I said, let therebe like you know, And so that's
what I'm That's what I want peopleto understand, is that that there are

(42:28):
origins to our stories. There areorigins to the things that we believe,
and it's important to know what thoseorigins are. And in the case of
dispensationalism, those origins are extra biblicaloutside from with outside of the Bible.
And that's the primary point I'm wantedto make there. With that, I
mean Justin and Martyr, he believedin a millennial kingdom that was mentioned in

(42:50):
Revelation. He pointed back to Isaiahsixty five seventeen twenty five would talk about
life when life expectancy would increase andpeople would build houses and have them and
plant vineyards and they eat their fruit. But even now we read that and
not as some future thing, butthis was Isaiah speaking to the people there

(43:14):
in Isaiah telling them, look,there's gonna come a day where where these
weapons of war are gonna be betinto web of tools for provision. Right,
It's gonna be resources that God usedto provide for his people. It's
gonna be the manna from heavens,so to speak, you know, to
these people. Which, which isanother important thing to pick in revelation is

(43:35):
a lot of these images are pulledfrom Exodus from within, as the people
would have understood, because the Exoduswas the premier event for the people of
God at that time. There arecertain things that happened in their life and
their history, and the exodus outof Egypt was one of the key things.
And they understand that Jew has understoodtheir entire history as kind of centering

(43:59):
around that, and that's a lotof what we're in revelation there. But
Iranius, you know, he hadhis beliefs, and so the point here
being, well there's not a staticunderstanding of revelation. We're just simply trying
to provide some consistency and provide yousome some basis of interpretation, and that
again that dispensationalism is more of anewer understanding and not something that we necessarily

(44:24):
understood. Well, I think Ithink it's good to have, you know,
to let readers in on some ofour conversation outside of this recording,
and one of those was you knowthat we were trying to we're trying to
put to articulate what are we tryingto do? And one of the we

(44:44):
an early rendering of one of thepoints was we want to encourage openness to
diverse interpretations of revelation. And themore I thought about that, I thought,
I'm not really sure I want todo that. I think that we
we we need to acknowledge that therewill always be diverse applications. But I
think we can know what this bookmeant. We know who wrote it,

(45:07):
we know who it was written to, we know what was going on.
We knew that well we'll talk aboutthe symbols, that the symbols represented very
real things, and we know allof that, and I think we we
have to all we have to wehave to live with the reality that there
will there will always be diverse applications, and I think to some extent we've

(45:30):
got to really learn discernment as towhen we when we exercise grace and when
we feel like we need to calleach other on that because we're we're we're
different. You and I are different, and the way we apply things is
different at times. But I thinkthat when it comes to the word interpretation,

(45:52):
I don't believe we should throw thedoor open for a ton of diverse
interpretations. We know what the bookmeant, we know why it was written
and when, right. Yeah,And when I say that, I think
what I'm saying is I like toapproach scripture reading with humility? Right.
I don't want to. I don'twant to have the hubris to say that

(46:15):
the way I understand scripture is theonly way it could ever be understood.
Nor do I want some guy who'sspent fifty years studying the Book of John.
Look. I have a ton ofrespect for someone that does that,
and I will absolutely pay attention toeverything he says, But even he should

(46:38):
approach the scripture in its interpretation withhumility and not suggest that his way of
interpreting is the only specific way thatcan be interpreted there. Now, is
there a right interpretation or there wrong? Or should I say, is there
a wrong way to interpret something?Yes, there are certainly wrong ways to

(47:00):
print something. I would agree withthat one hundred percent. But I don't
want to ever get to the pointwhere I am so full of myself that
I think this is my way isthe only way right. I think then
we end up being fundamentalist, youknow, just the opposite of what a
fundamentalist is. I think we're onthe same page. I don't. I

(47:22):
don't think. I think we're sayingthe same thing in different ways. I
think, I mean, is there, in my mind, is there anything
other than humility when approaching the Scripture? I mean, we're talking about something
we can't even fathom. Sometimes sometimesI think we should talk we should talk
less about it and soak more init, because we don't. We're not

(47:42):
We're not God. I think.What I'm trying to get at, though,
is there you know there is thereis a real air of relativism these
days, and there's a desire tosay, well, whatever your interpretation,
And the word interpretation is a veryspecific word, so you know, we
don't know all the answers. Weknow who wrote it, or at least
we we or at least we knowwe've got it down between a couple of

(48:04):
people, right, we know whenit was written, we know who it
was written to, and we knowwhat those what a lot of the references
in Revelation were. We're pointing towardslike we we know those things. And
and it's it's irresponsible to to takewhat we want it to mean and apply

(48:30):
unfaithful interpretations to it. But butbut the way it applies, Man,
how diverse is that? And talkabout humility needing, needing to be primary
when we are applying here's the beautifulthing about scripture and the work of the

(48:51):
Holy Spirit. You know, I'mI'm a big I'm I'm big against like
proof texting and stuff like that.That's when you take one verse out of
context. I don't like that.I think it's dangerous. But I'm going
to tell you something. I've seenit more than once when someone needed in
a time, they weren't prepared,they hadn't studied, they they weren't in
a good rhythm, but they neededthey needed the Lord, and they opened

(49:14):
the scripture. And I've even seentimes when it probably wasn't like the most
faithful interpretation of that, but theHoly Spirit met them in that moment,
and there's and that's the thing thatwe talk about humility. We need to
realize we're not on par with God, We're just we're just men. And

(49:37):
I think as long as we keepthat, I think that perspective. But
you know, and here's the coolthing about that, you and I can
disagree on how we apply things.It's okay, you know what I mean.
I think it'd be unhealthy to saywe got to have a podcast where
we agree on everything. That's justthat's just continuing the same problem. But
for me, I feel strongly aboutabout saying, you know, I think

(50:00):
there are there are some questions wecan answer, and how we apply the
answer that's going to be diverse.Yeah, I agree. And so just
to kind of sum up here,So the John's use of symbolism and revelation
was a way to convey his messagesto the seven churches in the broader Christian
community while avoiding direct communication with theRoman authorities. That's one thing to keep

(50:23):
in mind as you're reading Revelation.The second is that was written to seven
churches in Asia minor. Those werethe immediate audience to which he was speaking.
Thirdly, it can be applied thougheven it's written to them, it
can be applied to us today.It's still as applicable and by us to
us. Fourth, as Brade's pointis, there is the wrong way to

(50:43):
interpret revelation. And the one thingwe absolutely agree on is dispensationalism is a
bad interpretation of revelation. It's justan extra biblical interpretation. And then finally,
apocalypse does not mean end. Apocalypsemeans to reveal that which is hidden.

(51:05):
It doesn't mean meteor strike. AndI mean today that the implication today.
But then apocalypse just meant the unveiling. So when we read revelation or
apocalypse, you know that revelation isthat original apocalypse is written in Greek?
Is that original word there for revelation. So even to say well the book

(51:30):
itself means end, it doesn't.It means revelation that that's exactly a revealing,
and what does it reveal. Itdoesn't reveal the end. It reveals
Jesus Christ, the Son of God, right right, And I think for
the reader out there who's just stillgoing okay, but well, all right,

(51:51):
put all this together in a reallyreally elementary way. I think the
best way to say that is theBook of Revelation, as best we know
is this is the same message givenat least three times. So first it's
very very clear in the letters tothe churches. But then what happens is

(52:15):
that first that's the first cycle.Then that first cycle, there's a second
cycle, but it's just a retellingof those first seven letters. And then
there's a third cycle, and that'sjust a retelling. It's really driving this
point home in different ways that we'lltalk about. So the message to the
first to those seven churches, Imean, that's the heart and the core

(52:42):
of the of the Book of Revelation. But I think that we we will
we we we should not discount thelanguage that's used because there are some very
important things that happen in that colorfullanguage that we need to pay attention to.
Yeah. Good, Yeah, I'mglad you brought that up. I
forgot that about it basically being aretailling three times at least three times,

(53:04):
someone would say more, but atleast three times of the same message over
and over again. Say just incase you missed it the first time,
here it is again, and ohyeah, if you missed it the second
time, here it is again.And then, like we said, some
people may say he said it afourth or fifth time, because we all
know if you're a parent, thatare a teacher, that sometimes you got

(53:25):
to say things the same way ina different same same thing in different ways
multiple times just to get the pointacross, right, right, Yeah,
yeah, all right, Rad,Well, hey, it's been great,
haven't you here on the second episode. We look forward to the third episode
where we will get into those symbolsand we will talk specifically, Rad can
talk about what these different ones.We've already said the lamp stands for the

(53:46):
seven churches there. That one's kindof a no brainer. But well,
you know what are some of thesethe stars and the white robes, and
you know who are the nickelations andthis throne of Satan all these other symbols
that are in there, These beastwith all these eyes and weird things,
just dragon with a prostitute on itsback and chasing after this, you know,

(54:07):
the horror Babylon chasing it this version, you know, I mean,
what what is what is this stuff? Yes, we'll get into that,
Son, we'll get into that.You're the end of the third episode.
It'd be great, have you,Brad. Share again. Hey, if
you're listening to this, share thiswith your friends inviting them in because again

(54:28):
this is this is the first sixepisode to hear. What a great way
to spend Halloween. And look,we've got All Saints Day episode coming up
Halloween. We could be a bonusepisode. There are origins of Halloween.
It wasn't always spooky. We'll talka little bit about that in All Hell
Is Eve episode that'll be coming upas well, in a bonus episode.
But share this with your friends andloved ones and let them know it's here

(54:51):
and and didn't like it, andsubscribe so that you don't miss an episode.
Thanks Brad again, have a greatday. You can be a co
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and family and on your own socialmedia accounts give us positive five star reviews.

(55:12):
The more positive reviews we have,the more visibility we have, and
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(55:37):
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(56:02):
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