Revelation All_things_new_Part3 w/Rev. Brad Bellomy

In Part 3 of "Revelation: All Things New," Dr. Jeff and Rev. Brad return to the Book of Revelation, offering profound insights from the perspective of its original audience, the Seven Churches in Asia Minor, who often faced persecution. In this episode, they unveil the symbolism woven throughout the text, shedding light on what these symbols represented and what they continue to signify as we navigate the book's narrative.
**Key Symbols and Their Probable Meanings:**
1. **Seven Churches (Revelation 1:4):** These were real, historical churches in Asia Minor. The number seven signifies completeness or perfection, suggesting that Revelation's message is intended for the entire Church, extending beyond these specific congregations.
2. **Seven Lampstands (Revelation 1:12-13):** These symbolize the seven churches. Lampstands emit light, representing the churches' role in spreading the illumination of Christ within their communities.
3. **Son of Man (Revelation 1:13):** This title, attributed to Jesus, draws from the book of Daniel (Daniel 7:13-14) and emphasizes Jesus' divinity and supreme authority.
4. **Seven Stars (Revelation 1:16):** These represent the angels or messengers of the seven churches. These "angels" likely served as leaders or messengers responsible for conveying and reading John's letter to each congregation.
5. **White Robes (Revelation 3:4-5):** White symbolizes purity and victory. Those who triumph over trials and tribulations are promised white robes, signifying their righteousness and ultimate success.
6. **Candlesticks (Revelation 2:5):** Jesus warns that the lampstand will be removed from the church in Ephesus if they do not repent. This symbolizes the potential loss of their spiritual influence unless they return to their initial fervor for Christ.
7. **Nicolaitans (Revelation 2:6, 2:15):** The Nicolaitans were a heretical group within the church, and their actions and teachings were condemned. The origin and details of their beliefs remain unclear.
8. **Throne of Satan (Revelation 2:13):** In Pergamum, this likely referred to the city's connection with emperor worship and various pagan cults, highlighting the spiritual challenges faced by the church there.
9. **Jezebel (Revelation 2:20):** This symbolizes a woman in the church of Thyatira who led others into idolatry and sexual immorality, reminiscent of the biblical Jezebel in the Old Testament.
10. **New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2):** This represents the future heavenly abode of the redeemed, embodying the hope of a renewed and perfected world where God dwells with His people.
11. **The Dragon (Revelation 12:3-9):** The dragon represents Satan, who seeks to persecute and oppose the Church. This imagery may have been understood in the context of Roman oppression and persecution.
12. **The Beast (Revelation 13:1-10):** The beast often symbolizes oppressive political powers or rulers, potentially representing the Roman Empire or other tyrannical regimes.
13. **666 (Revelation 13:18):** This enigmatic number is associated with the beast and has sparked much speculation. It may have held a specific meaning understood by the original audience, potentially related to numerical codes denoting certain names or titles. Additionally, the use of the number six, juxtaposed with the number seven symbolizing completeness, could undermine claims of divine authority, challenging the emperor's insistence on god-like status.
These examples illustrate the rich tapestry of symbolism in Revelation. Interpretations of these symbols may vary among scholars and theologians, but grounding our understanding in the historical and cultural context of the original seven churches provides invaluable insights into their likely meanings.

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Episode Transcript

(00:01):
When you see Babylon, they callit the great Horror, the great Horror
Babylon. This is Rome. Andthere's another reference, the horror of Babylon.
Who sits on the seven mountains.Rome is the city on seven hills
Like this, This is no questionwhat's being talked about by this beast,

(00:23):
this Babylon, This this horror thatsits on seven mountains. This is Rome.
This is Rome, plain and simple. Marcus really has said what we
do in life Echoes through Eternity?What is your life echoing through Eternity?
Welcome to Echoes through Eternity with doctorJeffrey Skinner. Our mission is to inspire,

(00:45):
engage, and encourage leaders from acrossthe globe to plant missional churches and
be servant leaders. So join usand hear the stories of servant leaders reverberating
lives as God echoes them through Eternity. Brought to you by Metional Church Planting
and Leadership Development and Dynamic Church PlanningInternational. Welcome into Echoes through Eternity.

(01:08):
I am your host, doctor JeffreyD. Skinner. What is God echoing
through your life today? Well again, this is season three of Echoes through
Ettornity, and this is our thirdpodcast in the series on the Book of
Revelation, All Things New, aresponsible reading of the Book of Revelation,

(01:32):
and if it is if you're justtuning in and you miss the first two
episodes, I encourage you before youlisten to this episode, go back and
listen to the first two so thatyou have a context for what we're talking
about what responsible reading is. Idon't want to go through all that again.
I want to keep us on trackright now. We're talking before we
got started here today, and andjust you want to constantly reiterate some of

(01:56):
the things in our purpose here isnot necessarily to do comprehensive interpretation on a
podcast in Revelation here, I thought, or of Revelation here, I thought.
Brad said, really, well,and I'm just going to let him
say it, Yes, I thinkI think our goal is to address basic

(02:16):
issues that will help you to readthe Book of Revelation. Well, you
know, we we're not trying tobe comprehensive. There are a lot of
chapters in the Book of Revelation.There's six podcasts, and that's us talking
back and forth with each other thatthe goal is to help people to develop

(02:38):
a better tools for engaging with thisbook. And the hope is that once
we especially in this episode, webegin talking about symbolism, my hope is
that this book will not be asintimidating as it has been to people in
the past, but that with someof the tools that we're able to offer,

(03:00):
you know, that that it willmake reading the book a little more
palatable. And you know, weyou know, we just to remind the
reader we understand who we are.We're not God, We're not but we
but we are. We We havestudied scripture, and we the things that
we're willing to commit to are thingswe've we feel fairly confident about. Yeah.

(03:23):
Absolutely. And then and then wehad like a brief exchange as well,
talking about I think I had saidthat we were open to diverse interpretations
and you said, well, kindof not really and us, you know
what what we were saying there,and I think we're saying the same thing

(03:44):
is that yes, there are faithful, smart people can interpret things incorrectly.
That's one thing we're saying. Thesecond thing we're saying is that there are
correct ways to interpret things, andwe can know who was written to,
what the purpose was, and allthose types of things. And then thirdly,
there are wrong interpretations. We canwe can call out certain interpretations as

(04:05):
being wrong while simultaneously remaining humble inour approach to reading scripture, recognizing that
that these are alive and God isalways speaking to us. And what you
say is that there's there's we canknow specific interpretations of it that are they're
right, but apply it in differentways. I think it's the way you

(04:28):
say it right. Yeah, sowe're not being comprehensive. Well, you're
just trying to point out specific thingsthat are not the entirety of the book.
But they do provide framework for it. They they they help us to
move away from, you know,the more pop theology view of the Book

(04:50):
of Revelation, and and they makethe book accessible and applicable to us when
we learn what it what it sayspeople about how to be faithful to Jesus
in such contradicting times. Man,it's really helpful stuff. Yeah, yeah,
absolutely. And so that brings usto today, which is we want

(05:13):
to discuss that again. You know, back to Brad's point, this is
not comprehensive. We're our point hereis not to take every symbol that is
in revelation and say, oh,here's what it means, you know,
and this is how it applies today, or this is what it means today,
and things like that, I mean, even things like the Church.
And this is one of my myfrustrations with dispensationalism. It sees Israel and

(05:38):
the Church and the people of Godis kind of three different entities there,
and you know, three different purposes. That God has a separate plan for
Israel as the quote unquote chosen peopleof God. And and the reality is
is we are all God's chosen peopleat this point. That's what the whole,
that's what Jesus and I mean,all this stuff after Jesus will Peter
and you know, don't don't callthe things unclean. Don't don't call think,

(06:01):
you know, unclean that that Ihave made clean. Don't do that
stuff. Don't don't do this tothese people here. Don't argue over who
needs to be circumcised and who needsto be uncircumcised. And you know,
who's the end, who's out Stophaving these conversations. Everybody is a part
of the Kingdom. Now. Idesire for everybody, all of God creation,
to be my people here. Sothat's my frustration with dispensationalism. But

(06:24):
today we're want to talk about symbols. Yeah, and again, if I
can say right up front, Ithink I think that what I would say
to the reader is the point ofWe'll go ahead and tell you what the
point is of of this episode.The point is the symbols are not something

(06:45):
we need to try to discern inthe future. The symbols were very very
well understood. The symbols related toreal people, real things, real entities
that were that were during the timeof the writing of this book. And

(07:08):
so I think the bottom line,and we're going to talk about some interesting
things with the symbols. That's howwe're going to take an episode with it.
But the bottom line is that thesethis is not something we're supposed to
try to read tea leaves on.What we have to try to do once
we understand the message of the bookis to then allow the Holy Spirit to

(07:31):
help us to to apply these thingsto our life moving forward. And so
yeah, there you go. Yeah, so let's let's begin here today.
Of course, the Book of Revelationfilled with all kinds of symbols. Some
of them have the several media themhas specific meanings to the original audience there,
and that's the brass point there.We're talking about these seven churches in

(07:55):
Asia Minor to whom we've written thesethese same key symbols, and they're probable
meanings in the context were for thoseoriginal seven churches and had meaning not only
to these seven churches, but were, as Brad and I were talking before,
takedowns of some of their own mythologythat the Roman Empire, and which

(08:15):
was very much part of their religiouspantheon of gods and their operation of of
how they lived their lives and thingslike that, a specific takedown of those.
And so for example, the dragonhad a specific counterpart in tiam Hatt.
They're in Roman mythology, and andwe'll get to all that. So

(08:35):
so seven churches Revelation one through four, those were real. Those are not
symbols in and of themselves. Otherreal churches we listed those before just review.
Emphasis was one Smyrna pergrimam Ta Tira. Always have trouble with that word.
I don't know why startists Philadelphia andLaodsias. So those are the seven
churches to whom John was speaking.So those are those are not symbols,

(08:58):
Those are actual churches. Flat readingof relation there, right, and in
the seven lamp stands. So thosethose represent those seven churches. And so
we can again, you know,we don't have to look to the future
and say, oh, we're theseven lamp stands. Day, Well,
those are these seven nations. Herewe got to the United States and China
and Russia. Oh, here's Ukraine, you know, and oh, here's

(09:20):
in London. You know, we'reNo, that's what we call a wrong
interpretation. Yeah, if you situateyourself in the early Church, I mean,
they were focused on the words ofJesus. In fact, they didn't
have the New Testament, yeah,to read, and so Jesus was thement.

(09:41):
Was there New Testament? But here'swhat Jesus had told them. This
is how Jesus actually defined them.You are the light of the world.
And so it doesn't it make sensethen that lamp stands would be a real
appropriate metaphor to refer to these sevenchurches. Yeah, I had not thought

(10:01):
about that. I had not thoughtabout that. That is, that's really
good. They're the light of theworld and even the shining city on a
hill. Right. And then theother thing I like about that is that
the one of my favorite books whenI was when I was a teenager was
This Present, This Present Darkness andby Frank Paradian Piercing of Darkness by Frank

(10:22):
Paradi. And neither one of thosewere about the end times or anything like
that. But what I like aboutthat, that symbolism of that title there
is that, you know, notnot even a speck of darkness can stand
up two. I mean, there'sno darkness. The darkness of dark cannot
stand up to a speck of light. And I think that is so true

(10:43):
of us today as Christians, isthat in the presence of true holiness,
evil can't stand I mean darkness,darkness has no chance in the wake of
light. And so if you won'ttake a sivil of of those those seven
lamp standings and also take that inthat that now that's you know, probably

(11:03):
those churches may not necessarily heard thatexcept for the context of you're the light
of the world, but why notuse that symbol there for them? And
as a lamp stand there son ofMan. Obviously that's Jesus right, And
that title is and actually one ofthe things I remember, of course,
that comes from Daniel seven thirteen throughfourteen I sizes Jesus divinity and authority there,

(11:24):
who are you gonna say, goahead and finish that. I'll jump
in. Yeah, so I'll justso son of Man actually is a a
what's the world I'm looking for?A more waiting has more gravitized to those
people than even saying son of Godin those times. Uh, and so
son of Man was a distinct reference, is all I was going to say,

(11:46):
is a distinct reference to the factthat Jesus was God in thecarnate,
that it was not a separate humanbeing, not just a prophet, but
the slaughtered lamb that died on thatcross, that was Jesus. And so
that's suddle Man. And then theseven Stars Revelation one through sixteen. Those
are the messengers essentially, you cansay, the probably the leaders of those

(12:09):
churches that are delivering this reading forJohn there that's important to understand. You
got anything on that, Yeah,on these seven Stars that there was a
pretty consistent early understanding that you know, there was there was a the conception
of each church having an angel thatrepresented the represented that church. Almost it's

(12:33):
almost the feel of like an intercessor. Again, you know, we start
talking about angels. I get alittle I'm not sure. I'm not sure
what to say about all that.But yeah, so there are words in
the Greek that meant angel and pastoredsometimes. But you know, there's also

(12:54):
just the idea that these churches arenot alone, that these churches are being
are represented before the before the throneof God. You know, you hear
you hear the talk of First Johnthat you know, talk about we have
an advocate, And there was thisidea around this time that you know,
there people people, you know,people like to have symbols and one of

(13:16):
this even today, people like thisthe symbol of angels. And one of
the things that they that they liketo believe about angels was that each church
has an angel that represents that churchto God. It's just it's yeah,
yeah, I just wanted to addthat little piece. Yeah, yeah,
that's good. That's good insight toothat they would have. I didn't know

(13:39):
that that they felt like each churchhas on specific angel. Was that maybe
where the that guardian angel concept comesfrom. I'm not sure. And again
it's it's one it's one nuance ofthe early church. There, it's one
thing that people believed about this whatJohn was trying to say, you know,
is that there's a there's an angelthat sort of represents this church.

(14:03):
It's metaphorical, I think, right. Yeah, and I know you said
you you said you know what tothink about angels, But I mean the
reality is is the angel in theBible just means messenger. It's not necessarily
being Yeah, I mean Sarffim andSeraphilms are the primary angelic beings that we
hear. And that's in relation tothe Holy holies and archaic cover Yeah,

(14:24):
and uh things, so many,so many things that some of these words
could have meant. I just tryto stay out of that ballpark. Yeah
right, you definitely can get intotrouble when you get too far into it.
But but let's brute us back.None of these are talking about anything
is happening in the future. Soyou know, the these seven stars were
were not you know, you can'tlook at some nation's flag the seven stars

(14:48):
that it must have been that nationthere. This is this is not nothing
futuristic about that. There are portionsof Revelation that talk about the future,
but it's that the future son ofMan of Jesus, you know, making
all things new. That is thefuture portion of revelation. But in these
symbols here, these are not futuristicwhite robes. You know, we still

(15:11):
think about white We talked about thethe understanding of the priests and cleanliness and
purity and all that that was veryimportant to the priestly line of thinking.
Then well and haven't understood that,going, yeah, and what so white
robes in the first century were theydid connote purity, like they they they

(15:33):
referenced purity, but they white robeswere worn during sacred ceremonies and on festival
occasions, not not like in thein the general Roman pagan worship and things
like that pagan word. Yeah.Yeah, so white robes had a very
very clear ceremonial overtone that connoted purity, right, yeah, right, and

(15:54):
even victory because you know, youryour emperors were dressed in their their white
robes after a victory. They wouldcome back in to celebrate and things like
that, and so, but inthis case it's not you know, victory
for the kingdom looks very different thanvictory for an empire. Right. The
way God wins his people is notat the point of a sword or spear,

(16:18):
but through love and at the pointof a cross, even you know,
the knails in the only point thathe experienced was the spirit in his
side and the knails in his wriststhere and feet, and that was being
done to him. And in theattempt to do that to him, they
end up saving all of humanity there. So the point here is not victory

(16:41):
for a Roman empire. But thesepeople have these churches who are being oppressed
and at times and being forced toor at least try to be coerced into
proclaiming that Caesar was Lord or Caesarwas God. Ultimately, it was telling
them, you will have ultimate victoryhere as long as you remain faithful in

(17:02):
trust in and Uh and God well. And it was also challenge. It
was also ensuring a different type ofvictory because here's the reality of a lot
many of the Christians who received theseletters and circulated them, they didn't experience
a real sense of victory on thisside of things. Many of them would

(17:22):
would die, many of them wouldgive their life, many of them would
be marginalized from having jobs and thingslike that. But the promise here,
I mean, it's this entire overtonethat we're from. It we're from a
different place like the Kingdom of Godsupersedes all of it. And even even
if you don't achieve the type ofvictory that you're hoping for, here you

(17:45):
will be victorious. And and it'sthe promise, it's the promise of a
work of God that that supersedes thework of emperors. I like that.
It's the promise that the work ofGod supersede the work of emperors. I
like that a lot. So movingon Revelation two five, got candlesticks here

(18:08):
Jesus, you know this, here'skind of an interesting one. Here Jesus
is threatening to remove the lampstand fromthe church Inphesus if they don't repent.
Well, that sounds you know,what do you mean to remove? You'll
you'll close my church? Were yougonna? Are you gonna? We're not
gonna be Essentially, he's saying,yeah, if you if you cave in
to the empire, if you ifthere's no difference between you and the empire.

(18:32):
And I think this is absolutely applicableto us as Christians today, that
our distinctiveness as the people of Godis how we live and how we react
in times of stress and oppression andthings like that. It doesn't take a
citizen of the Kingdom of God toto live well in victorious times when when

(18:55):
all things are going well, yourbank account is full, your children are
living, have got straight a's,and your wife and you were getting along
and you're sleeping in the same bed, and all those good things are going
on. It doesn't take a lotof tenacity and character to live a good
life in that context. There.But when we are persecuted, when things

(19:18):
are not going well just because oflife itself, we get a diagnosis of
cancer, or our loved one dies, or our good friend of mine thirty
you know, thirty year old daughterwas diagnosed with a rare form of cancer
and died at thirty, you know, thirty years of age. And so
when those things are happening, andour response is different from that of who's

(19:42):
a citizen of the empire, Ithink that makes a difference there. And
that's what he's saying to them whenhe's threatening to remove their lamp stand from
their church in ephesis there, ifthey don't repent, and repent is not
just a confession. Confession is aseparate thing. Confession is I sind repentance
is turning around. We've conflated thetwo repentance has changed your ways, go

(20:06):
a different direction, because then thedirection that you're headed is not good things
not got you know, good thingsdon't lie ahead for you. For there
there's removal or influence. There.There's an important reality that's being named in
that particular text about removing the lampstand. And I think the reality is

(20:26):
if the function of the lamp isto give light. Once, once Christians
become indistinguishable from their surrounding culture,there's no light. I mean, there's
like and in some ways, thebrad part of me wants to go and
say, Jesus isn't gonna rip thelight away from him. The light's gonna
go like, the light's gonna goout, like if there is no light,

(20:52):
if you are not distinct like this, this kingdom that God has called
us to is other. I mean, we talk about loving our enemies,
we talk about forgiving those who haveheard. We're talking about, you know,
being willing to undergo persecution. Thatis different that that that signals to

(21:14):
the world that there might actually bea better way that supersedes all of this.
But when we compromise that there's nolight, and I think that I
think we need if we wanted touse the lamp stand as a as a
metaphor, I think the lamp stand, if the lamp stand hadn't fallen over
in a lot of Western Christianity rightnow, I think it's it's it's tilting

(21:37):
because because when we start equating Jesuswith political parties or with social specific social
movements. I'm not saying that Jesuswas his own social movement. He was
his own political party. But butwhen we when we just accommodate and then
all of a sudden, Christ doesn'tthere's no nothing distinctive the lampstand, if

(22:02):
it hasn't fallen over, it's it'sin the process. And I think we
need to be careful about that.Right now. We talked about this this
distinctiveness, but holiness is that meansdistinctiveness, right, It means you're set
apart, you're for a specific usethere. Well, there's nothing set apart
of If the entire room is blue, and I bring in a blue piece

(22:25):
of carpet to that blue room,nothing is going to stand out about that
piece of carpet, right, Sothere's nothing unique about that. As Christians,
and we're gonna go back kind ofget into weeds a little bit here.
But when God creates humanity, wewere living images of Him in his

(22:47):
image in this world. There intheir image. We were created as his
image is their image in this worldhere to be a reflection of Him and
his holiness, his otherness, hiscomplete distinctiveness from everything else that existed in
the world at the time. Wewere different than the rest of the animals
on the planet. Here. Wewere different in the way that we thought

(23:11):
and we interacted with our environment.We were different in the way that we
reacted to those who persecuted us.We're different in the ways that we live
our lives. And you know thatit's that difference there, and that's where
when when God came to Abraham,that was completely different because Abraham had nothing
to offer to God. Right hewas, there was two things children and

(23:33):
land that distinguished you in those timesin Abraham don't neither. He had no
children, no land, and sohe's and so God comes to him and
makes a statement, you, Iwill make of you a great nation.
That was not anything that Abraham coulddo. That in itself is a distinct
story for us. So everything aboutus is distinct. So you're right,

(23:55):
and that's what he's telling them herein this candlestick. Look, it's it's
not that Jesus is ripping their candlestickaway, their candles, lampstand away from
them. It is that it's justnaturally going to go out as a result
the distinguished unit. There's no influencethat you're going to have in any way.
One of the distinctives of the earlyChurch and the Roman Empire that I

(24:19):
think a lot about is this factthat they were models. They were model
citizens. They just wouldn't do emperorworships. So many times and every every
age and every every generation, thereis a lot of bipolar thinking. One
it's just on all the way onone side, all the way on the

(24:40):
other. That is the normal runof this world. Talk about how attractive
it might have been, whether positiveor negative, would have attracted attention,
that these were these were citizens,that they they were, they were good,
they were good for the nation,They they were supportive, but they
wouldn't worship the emperor. That that'sthat's a very distinct light. And some

(25:04):
of the practices that you know areaddressed in the letters that that they were
beginning to participate in. That reallytook away from their ability to stand in
distinction. I think one of thegreatest, one of the one of the
most interesting thing about Christians in thein the first century, where that they
were such model citizens, but theydrew a line. They drew a line

(25:27):
a worshiping the empire. Yeah,Daniel did for sure. I mean,
uh, you know he I meanhe had influenced within never was never Caner
he was. Yeah, so yeah, I mean he he lived within that,
within the Battlelonian Empire. But buthe drew the line at emperor worship

(25:49):
right and then, and even Neviacanhad to do it. But ultimately,
you know, in order to protecthis own credibility, he had to talk
all stangling the lions Den. Andthen, of course we know, assuming
you are familiar with the physical storythere, we know that Cos's been the
lines inn and went back the nextday, and yeah, there was a

(26:12):
fourth person in there. And thisis a whole probably a whole other conversation,
But I'm not going to miss theopportunity to say, you know,
the Bible is full of good,solid backing that it is not our role
as assault and light in the worldto yell at it all the time.
Our role is to be a loving, graceful presence in the world and to

(26:36):
to try to help the world,but to draw a line when it comes
to worshiping anything other than God.Like, we do have a top priority,
and it is to live according tothe kingdom that we're from, right,
and not the kingdom that we happento be residing in. Yeah,

(27:00):
so, uh so, I thinkwe've we've exhausted the Caunt well, at
least talk a good bit about thecandlesticks. But Nickelations that Revelations two six
through the two six and at twopoint fifteen, the Nickelations were a heretical
group within the Church, and theirdeeds and doctrines were condemned. The name
Nickelation likely is a reference to theirleader, but the specific details of their

(27:25):
beliefs are unclear at this point.But that's that's where Jesus's where they're you
know, Giant's talking about in twosix and two fifteen. They're you know,
references there, that's who he's referringto. Its basically, these guys
are heretics, don't don't be Andwell this is a specific term, right,
it's not just one that we disagreewith. I mean it is that
just means I disagree with what yousay was you're a heretic, right,

(27:48):
yeah, I mean. And what'sinteresting is whatever the specifics of the nickelatings
were, they they are referred toas as like Balem. You know that
whatever whatever they're peddling is having sortof the same impact of the story of
what was happening in the story ofBayalem. And so again I think the

(28:11):
reason that's important is just to understandthat we're not supposed to try to read
that into the future. We knowwhat that was, we know what was
happening. Yeah. Good. Andin the Throne of Satan Revenation two thirteen,
this is in one of the churcheshere, part of them likely the
city's association with the Emperor worship,and they're pegging cults there talking about the

(28:36):
spiritual challenges that face him there Jezebel, you know again a figure from the
Old Testament that is connected with Elijahthere and you'll remember that, you know,
she's the one that that after Elijahchallenged the bell gods there where he
had that contest where he says,okay, we're going to have a contest.

(28:56):
I want you to ring all yourpeople here, and I want you
to pray to your bel gods,and we won't hit them to consume this
altar here with fire. And ifyour God wins, then I will worship
your God. But if my Godwins, you will worship my God.

(29:18):
If you remember the story, hegoes in there, and they do all
kinds of stuff, and ain't nothinghappening with their altar, certainly not being
condemned by fire. One time,he even kind of jokes with him,
and he's like, maybe maybe yourGod is using the restroom or something,
and maybe that's why he's not comeand consumed this altar yet. And so

(29:41):
then when it's Elijah's turned, hehas him wet it down. He does
everything in the world to make itharder, and God comes and consumes the
entire altar of fire. As aresult of that, Jesebel gets upset,
and so she basically sends the calvaryafter him, and so he's running for
his life. Of course, weknow the ultimate end of Jezebel was that

(30:02):
that she's being she gets eaten bythe dog. She falls out the window
and is consumed by the dogs outthere, which is a part of a
fulfilling of a prophecy there. Butthis, this reverence here is the reminder
of them, reminder of them thatyou know this, these are the people
that that you're in association with.These are these are the types of ideas
that you're in association with. Here, you need to make sure this is

(30:26):
you know, you need to changeyour way, you need to repent.
Yeah. So what's interesting in theseletters is they'll give old they'll give Old
Testament names, and remember the OldTestament is what all these people had to
read like, that's that was theNew Testament was literally in process at that
point. So they would they wouldgive names to the woman's name in the

(30:48):
church probably was not Jezebel. Butwhat what we know is that there was
this is about prophecy, true versusfalse prophecy. It's what it was about
in in the Old Testament. Andwhat we know is there was this woman
who was encouraging people to do somethingthat was frowned upon, and that's eating

(31:11):
food that had been sacrificed to idols. And she had and so what she
was causing some division, she wasshe was really causing confusion among the early
Christians and sort of represented a falseprophet, the impact of a false prophet.
That's why that whatever her name was, she was given the name Jezebel.

(31:32):
That was a very real person wholived at that at that time and
was doing a very specific thing.Yeah, and so yeah, exactly,
so by giving her that name,probably not Jezbel, but just saying,
remember Jezebel, this is the typeof woman, just says, and you
remember her. End you don't wantto end up like her, and remember

(31:55):
that, remember that there. Sometimesit's hard to distinguish between true false truth
prophets and false prophets. Like it'ssome it is hard sometimes if you are
not focused and if you're not listeningand paying attention, sometimes we can be
duped. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and we see that today. I
mean a lot of evangelical Christianity isbeing duped today by by all kinds of

(32:20):
people. And it's sad really tosee. And it's creating all kinds of
division within a church and everything else. So and I just I just have
to constantly remind myself that my hopeis in Jesus that I can't look to
As you say, we're of anotherworld, another kingdom, and when we
say we want our King the empireto thrive. We're not saying that we

(32:43):
just go along with whatever the empiresays. I mean, we draw the
line like you said there. Butbut if the Empire is is oppressing someone,
we have a riot. We're notjust a right, we have an
obligation as citizens of another world saythat's not right. We can call out
the empire for the things that they'redoing wrong and not necessarily remained silent.

(33:08):
But as to your point of justconstantly being in this attack mode and the
empire certainly doesn't do any good becauseeventually, when you just have this dog
it's just constantly barking, you justtune the dog out right, And so
I think that's the thing. NearSo during New Jerusalem Revelation twenty one to
two, and again these are notexhausted symbols, we're just going through some

(33:30):
of them here. But New Jerusis this is the future in the heavenly
dwelling of the Redeemed. In otherwords, this is this is a new
creation. This is when God makesall things new. And what they're talking
about this New Jerusalem there, Jerusalembeing that capital city of the Promised Land
where Yusrael was completely united, onekingdom. They weren't divided into their tribes.

(33:52):
They weren't divided in the north andthe south, but there were one
tribe united. And this is theimage that John is calling to mind for
these people here, is to tolive into that reality today and not just
wait for that reality to happen someday. And I think that's the same thing

(34:12):
for us today. Well, Andwhat's important about this is there's just a
real general theme here that I thinkwe can be sure of, and that
is that, you know, Jerusalemhad been sacked and destroyed at this point,
Jerusalem had been destroyed, not rightabout the time of this writing,
maybe a little bit before. Andwhat the promise is here is of of

(34:34):
God making things new. What wedon't know, Like even in the early
Church, there were you know,there were thoughts that in New Jerusalem would
be actually literally on this earth.There were thoughts that the New Jerusalem was
a spiritual reality. What we whatwe know is that God is in the
business of taking what's dead and bringingit back to life. And God's in

(34:57):
the business of peace and and andhope, and that this this idea of
the New Jerusalem is a powerful image. Would have been much more powerful to
them because that had been the centerof their, of of everything for many
of the Christians and their ancestors,and it had been destroyed, it had

(35:17):
been sacked, the template had beendestroyed, and to the division of a
new Jerusalem was a very powerful thing. It was a very hopeful reality.
And then we got the famous dragonand talk a little bit about that.
You were talking you, we weretalking a little bit and the before we
started about this dragon having a particularsymbol with the end of Greek and Roman

(35:39):
culture there that that they were theChristians in the southern churches would have been
familiar with. But simultaneously they wouldhave seen it in a specific way of
you know, Satan and persecuting andoppressing the church as well, or at
least the adversary. And that's whatwe mean by Satan here is not this
galiforns, but but this cues oran adversary that that's coming in to persecute

(36:02):
and which could have been Rome inthis instance as well. So we talk
a little bit about that. Yeah, So this story of the woman and
the Dragon and Michael in chapter twelve, there was a story that was circulating
during John's time and in this story, the antagonist of the story was this

(36:23):
fierce dragon named Python, and theprotagonist was a woman named Leto, who
was the mother of Apollo, theGreek god Apollo. And so the Roman
emperors told this tale of the womanand the dragon, and the reason they

(36:43):
told it was to they associated themselveswith Apollo, who defeated the dragon and
ushered in an age of peace.And you know, the pat Tromano was
a big deal. Like Rome claimedit had brought peace. It's a really
interesting way that it brought interesting waythat it brought peace. But the citizens
of the empire would see the analogybetween the woman in the story that John's

(37:08):
telling and Roma, who is thequeen of heaven and her son might be
the end. So John is actuallyengaging a story of heroes and heroines that
was circulating during that time. That'sa very specific story and the symbols this

(37:30):
is the story of a battle betweenthe forces of good and evil. Well
that's the the people that received thisletter would have. It would be like
someone writing a sermon to us andusing the characters of Thor or the last
Thor movie, you know what Imean, Like we would we would get

(37:51):
it like it would be a veryvery relevant symbol that John was using,
and it related to a depressive poweror with a dragon. The dragon actually
represented the Satan, the accuser,who persecuted the church, who opposed the
church. It would also represent Romanoppression and persecution. And so what was

(38:15):
what's interesting is John taking this storythat actually is supposed to play to Rome
and using their their dragon as asymbol of their own evil, their own
oppression. Interesting stuff. Of course, we got the famous Beast in thirteen
one through ten, and you know, it's just aggressive political powers or rulers.

(38:39):
Again, it's could have been RomanEmpire. It could have been any
empire. Truth, that could havebeen a battling empire from their history,
I mean, any president. Sothis is really important. This is critically
important right here because oh, sorry, there's a lag between me and you
right now. Okay, you're nothearing, Okay, I'm sorry. So

(39:02):
so the beast you also hear.Babylon. The use of Babylon is very
very important here because this is oneof the areas in which there were some
veiled talk that might not completely tickoff Rome. But Rome was the new
Babylon and and so but Babylon wasBabylon was the worst moment in the history

(39:28):
of the people of God, likeit was when the people of God were
oppressed and taken into you know,taken away. And I mean this,
Jerusalem was destroyed. And and lookat the look at the similarities between Rome's
sacking of Jerusalem and and so whenyou see Babylon, they called the great
horror, the great horror Babylon.This is Rome. And there's another reference,

(39:53):
the horror of Babylon. Who sitson the seven mountains? Rome is
the city on seven hills. Likethis, this is no question what's being
talked about by this beast, thisBabylon. This is this horror that sits
on seven mountain This is wrong.This is wrong, plain and simple.

(40:15):
And here's my favorite. Six.I jokingly tell Lisa that she's the Antichrist.
Her birthday is sixty six, sixtynine, And so I'll say,
at Christ, how ridiculous have peoplegotten with this? Go ahead, so

(40:36):
I am I know people, I'mnot joking that something will ring up his
six dollars and sixty six cents inthe store and oh no, I gotta
buy something else, you know,or or their car tiger will be six
sixty six. Oh yeah, no, I can't, I can't. I
can't do that. So here's here'sthe thing. So this number is associated
with the beast and and it's beenthe subject of a cost speculation as we

(41:00):
talked about. But the specific meaninghere as it was understood in the original
alliance is that it relates to thenumerical codes usually represents certain names. So
this is in the Greek side ofthings, it was called I don't really
exactly know how to pronounce this gemetriumI believe is one is a Greek side,
and then on the Hebrew side they'recalled iso sepie And however you say

(41:24):
those particular words, I don't know. Essentially, it's just taking the alphabet
and then applying a numerical value toit. So it'd be like a cipher
that we've used today to if youwant to write a secret code to find
a buried treasure or something, youcould you could create the cipher to where
people would there be a particular keycode to decoded. So when you when

(41:46):
you do that, it spelled outtheir emperor's name in six sixty six.
But more specifically, they were talkingabout that at least for the Hebrew people.
The number seven was with the numberof completeness, wholeness. Yeah,
and so if something was complete enough, then it was complete seven. So

(42:10):
you got you had the year jubilee, and so as the year of Jubilee,
things would reset and all debt wouldgo back and and all prisoners would
be released. I mean it wasa freedom day essentially at seven years.
So your your time of servitude wascomplete. So seven has you know numbers
throughout Revelationaire, go ahead, yeah, you have. You have Peter asking

(42:37):
Jesus how many times did I needto forgive somebody? Seven times? And
He's like, oh, seventy timesseven. It's it's like this just this
full, whole, limitless number,which makes the number six very interesting here.
So so in other words, incomparison, you know, you got
you have this emperor here who claimsto be God, and in comparison you

(43:01):
have seven, which is a numberof completeness. God is Caesar couldn't wouldn't
even be in the same universe.I mean, I mean in the multiverse.
If the multiverse existed, Caesar wouldn'teven be any multiverse close to God.

(43:21):
There's no contest here between Caesar andGod. There's no contest at all.
So the idea that the number sixsixty six is something we need to
watch that, that's not what we'retalking about. What we're talking about is
this beast is Babylon. Remember,I'm just going to keep saying it until
it gets in. People said,the horror of Babylon that sits on seven
hills, that's Rome. And andthis number six sixty six is referring to

(43:47):
the emperor. And there would beno other number you would choose because it's
right before seven. And so theyseven was this number of completeness, and
and so six six six would makea very clear point as to the authority

(44:07):
of Rome. Yeah. Absolutely,I mean, like we said, no
contest, no comparison whatsoever. Thereis no other. You know, God
is like no other. God isholy, which means not a moral term,
not an ethical term, but justto complete there, there's no way
to describe God other than to saythat He is holy or God is holy.

(44:30):
Even to use you know, theword he as a pronoun for God.
We won't get into pronounce today.Yeah, but to use that in
reference to God, we have tounderstand that that's just a personification that we
as a hold over from that time. There, So no, and the

(44:51):
Emperor just isn't Yeah, yeah,absolutely, Well man, that we look
again, these are this is notmeant to be. I just want to
remind you God not a comprehensive understandingof every symbol within revelation there. But
the whole point, as we saidthe beginning, was not to look for
some future interpretation, but to simplyunderstand that the people, the original audience

(45:14):
here to whom this was written,would have understood these in their context to
mean what it meant to them.And are there applications to today, Yes,
there are absolutely applications today. Andone of those applications is beware of
the wielding of power period. Outsideof the Kingdom of God, power is

(45:36):
corrupt. Yeah, and I thinkthat you know, we've talked about a
lot. Again. What I liketo do is sort of pull things together.
And if you look at all thesesymbols, this is what the symbolism
is trying to say to us.The Church is the light to the world
and part part of the light isthat it does not bow to the Emperor.

(46:00):
It also doesn't fight use violence.It it calls us to live as
helpful people, loving people in thisworld. But we draw a line.
We don't we don't worship nationalism,we don't worship an emperor. And and
so I I think that that's areally really important thing that's going to run

(46:24):
through all of this. And truthof the matter is one of the biggest
temptations for us as as humans isto just go the way of the world.
It's it's and it's not all it'snot all bad that we wanted to.
We want to be with people,we want to be accepted, we
want to be loved. We wedon't want to be alone. Like that's

(46:47):
one of our greatest fears is tobe alone. And and what you hear
in Revelation a lot of times isis this this assurance that hey, even
when you feel like you're alone,you're not going to be alone. I
know that. But I think thatwe'll get into this more in a future
episode, but I'll go ahead andjust be clear with it for people who

(47:08):
you know, just in this secondor third episode. Whatever we are with
this, is that the dragon theBeast rome. Well, it is not
hard to apply those metaphors empire,worldly kingdoms, America any time empire enters

(47:37):
the scene. We have a referenceto empire in the scripture, and it's
a very very detailed one and it'sin the Book of Revelation, and it's
how to not not to ride thewings of empire and fall to worship empire.
It's to be a light and afaith presence in the midst of empire.

(48:06):
Wean't to talk more about that.Yeah, And then I wanted to
correct something I said. I hadsaid that they would have heard it as
their story their dragon the Roman dragons, tim Timott was not the Roman dragon.
Timm At was the Babylon dragon thatwas the one for their creation story.
Where in the Mesopotamian theology, whichis again goes back to Genesis and

(48:28):
creation story that the Babylons had duringthat time. There interesting that we you
know, we're talking about Genesis.Genesis was not the very first book of
the Bible that was written, andwe know that. So anyway, just
again calling them back, referencing,hearkening them back to their story as the
people of God, that dragons don'tjust hold an image for the Roman Empire,

(48:50):
but they all also hold significance foryou. And it remembered that the
empire the other empire that oppressed youonce before was Babylon, and you ultimately
would rescue from it, and youhad hope in it, and this was
their story. You had another dragon, Naim that oppressed you. Then go
ahead. So so in terms ofjust putting all the pieces together, So

(49:10):
what have we said. We liketo talk, I mean, that's what
that's what you do during podcasts.But what have we said so far?
Okay, it's what we said.Reading any scripture out of context is irresponsible.
And and so what we need todo is understand the basics, who,
what, when, where? What'sthe context? We need to understand
those things in order to be faithful. And then we moved into this conversation

(49:36):
about context. We understand that thesewere two churches, very specific churches to
a very specific slice of time whenJesus followers were trying to figure out how
to live in the world. Thatthat's what it is. And then we
understand now that as we go toread it, it's cyclical. You're going
to tell the same story over andover again. But we understand that the

(49:59):
main symbol in this is the lightwhich is being threatened by assimilation into empire,
and that in order to be thelight, we're going to have to
learn to distinguish ourselves while still beinga loving presence. And what we'll find

(50:22):
later and we'll get to this,but what we're going to find ultimately in
Revelation is there are all of thesescary stories. But there's something that the
average reader doesn't pick out. Thereare cycles, and each cycle begins with
a phrase and ends with a veryspecific phrase. That's how you can look

(50:44):
through Revelation and tell. But ineach cycle there's this scary description of the
fate of man if left to himself. But what people don't realize is at
the end of every cycle, whathad in the beginning been promised as the
punishment God withdraws. I mean,I had never heard anybody talk about this.

(51:13):
In every cycle, all of thisbad, all of this tear,
these terrible things that have been promisedto those who you know, oppose God,
God actually exercises grace at the endof every cycle. Now that's a
that's a version of the Book ofRevelation. I can I can get behind,

(51:35):
I can read. Yeah, we'lltalk more about that. Yeah,
I can't remember if I fed earlieror not. But Dan Boone he's president
of correct An University. Now,one of the things he always said,
excuse me, yeah, it wouldn'tDan Boone had said this. It was
Michael Jackson, not the one withthose oh yeah, buddy, but a
different Michael Jackson who said that anytime there's a contest between God's wrath and

(52:00):
God's mercy, Guy's mercy wins.And I like that. I think that
is the hope of Revelation is that? And that was hopeing in the old
testpitut always God, there was alwaysa remnant that remained of Israel, even
after suppose the destruction was coming.There was always a remnant that was reborn
and resurrected after it was all saidand done. Hey Brad, great having

(52:24):
you again. I think it wasone of our best episodes so far of
the series. I think we're gettingour groove here. And so we'll talk
about next time Revelation four and orexcuse me, the fourth episode, what
is the specific message to the churches? And so Brad did an incredible serving
series on the seven churches in Revelation. I'm pretty much gonna let him talk

(52:45):
in that entire fourth episode, it'shad a little bit of commentary here and
there. But I think he dida fantastic job in talking about those and
the specific messages that He had forthem in the context in which they live,
and then those applications that can begiven to us today. So like
and share, subscribe, tell yourfriends about it, because I don't think

(53:06):
you're going to find a lot ofother people sharing this perspective of revelation,
this responsible reading here, responsible interpretation, responsible look of it at it all
things new, responsible look at theBook of Revelation. Thanks again, guys.

(53:27):
You can be a co creator withGod by helping to echo our voices.
Share our episodes and friends and familyand on your own social media accounts
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(53:53):
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(54:16):
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(54:38):
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