November 17, 2025 • 12 mins
Entertainment research powerhouse Kevin Goetz, founder and CEO of Screen Engine, reveals behind-the-scenes strategies Hollywood uses to create hit films. Goetz breaks down insights from his new book, How to Score in Hollywood: Secrets to Success in the Movie Business, explaining how audience testing, smart budgeting, and data-driven storytelling shape the movies we love.
Heather dives into Goetz’s decades of experience testing more than 5,000 movies, consulting for major studios, and helping guide box-office successes by aligning creative instincts with what audiences truly want. If you’ve ever wondered why some films soar while others stumble, or how streamers and theaters decide what gets made, this episode pulls back the curtain.
Perfect for filmmakers, entertainment fans, and anyone curious about Hollywood’s inner workings, this conversation offers a rare look at the business of storytelling — from the first spark of an idea to the final cut.
Don't forget to subscribe to Entertain Me and follow Heather Brooker on Instagram @theheatherbrooker.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome back to Entertainment. I'm Heather Brooker. This is a
show where we cover all things entertainment news, from SoCal
to the silver screen. Today we're talking about Hollywood's latest revelation. Audiences,
not executives, are quietly shaping the future of filmmaking. That's
according to movie strategist Kevin Getz, who's tested more than
five thousand films over four decades. In his new book,
(00:22):
How to Score in Hollywood, gets says today's moviegoers aren't
choosing between streaming and theaters. They're choosing the kind of
emotional experience they want, and those choices now influence which
films get made, how they're edited, and where they're released.
Welcome to the show, Kevin.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Heather, thank you so much. It's so nice to be
here with you.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
A lot of our listeners work in or around the
entertainment industry. What's something Hollywood insiders themselves often misunderstand about
why certain movies get made and others don't.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, that's a good question. The It's this a bit
of a complicated answer, but by and large, every movie
is made and marketed for the right price really should
make money. I mean, that's part of the really interesting conundrum.
But so few really make money that they could because
they're not doing the proper work or asking the right
(01:13):
questions pre green light, so that they're making movies that
are two that don't they're making movies for budgets that
often don't support the audience that is committed to seeing them.
That is to say that the audience isn't large enough
(01:35):
for many budgets. So it's important to know what you
have out of the gate and size that audience so
that you can make better financial decisions. As I said
before shooting a frame of film.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So is it safe to say like studios aren't making
movies that audiences want to see?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
No? No, I think that they absolutely are. We got
to be talking about Look, every movie has a reason
to exist. Because I've worked on over five thousand titles,
Heather and I have to tell you that there's always
a person who loves something. Now it may be an
(02:17):
audience of one, but you, as a filmmaker or a
person financing a film, really need to know that before
you start, so that you're not paying too much money
or budgeting the movie for too much money since so
few people will actually support it, and that in lies.
A lot of the problem is that people again don't know,
(02:39):
aren't aware, don't ask the right questions, don't talk to
audiences about their level of intensity, let's say, in a
project until it's too late. And that's what I'm saying.
Every movie has an audience, and every movie, as I said,
should be made and could be made, but you've got
to make it responsible.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
So it's a matter of if you if you find
the source material and you want to make a movie,
knowing how much you can budget to make that movie
in order to make it profitable for the amount of
audience that's going to go see it.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Bullseye, what you just said is exactly right, And it
was so funny. You know. I wrote my first book, Audienceology,
which is really about the test screening process, right. It's
about the recruited audience screenings before a movie comes out.
How we test our movies with filmmakers and studios. And
I've been doing it for years and years. I've worked
(03:34):
on over five thousand titles. And during that process and
watching so many movies for so many years, I would
sit there Heather and I would go, well, my god,
how did they make the movie this? How did they
make this movie for you know, such a little amount
because I knew the budget going in. Then I look
at another movie, actually most movies, and say, how did
(03:58):
they make the movie for that much money? Oh? My gosh,
they don't have an audience for this. And I wanted
to unpack that. I wanted to say, what is in
the thought process, what's in that that that beginning process
that could be done more effectively? And you you wonder
why so many folks lose money? Uh, And this book
(04:21):
is a roadmap to sort of telling you how you
can succeed every time out. Now, sometimes that might mean
you can't make the movie because there's no way you
can afford to make it, and that is an answer.
But to ignore the audience is really at your own peril.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
So let's talk about a time when audience testing completely
changed a film, or maybe the way it was delivered,
or maybe even involved reshoots. Because as you're you know
you're talking about this, audience is a very important part
of the filmmaking process and knowing your audience. Can you
(04:59):
talk about a time where movies, as they often get tested,
change the film.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Well, nearly every movie I've ever worked on does some change,
So it would be it would be impossible to mention
a specific title. If you brought up a title and
it's been you know, talked about, I can bring it up.
I mean, I work on seventy percent of every movie
that tests in Hollywood, so I would say ninety five
(05:27):
percent of them make some kind of change, whether it's
small editorial changes, like you know, it's a little the
movie's a little fat, meaning it's a little long, so
it needs to be tightened. That's a strong or a
large number of cases. That is the case that we're
trying to streamline the narrative. The ending is really super important,
(05:50):
creating an ending that's both not only emotionally satisfying but
intellectually satisfying. And so you know, intellectually satisfying meaning that
it's answering questions and emotionally satisfying meaning that it is
hitting and touching you in some way. It doesn't have
to be a happy ending, but it needs to be
a satisfying one, one that is truthful to the narrative
(06:12):
before it, I want to make a really clear statement
about something, though, Heather to clarify for audiences, because naysayers
will often say, well, you're talking about art. How can
you measure art and how can you judge art well?
When you're creating art, I truly believe that that is
(06:33):
a very personal experience that's between you and the universe,
or you and the gods, right the person the artist
creating it. But the moment you memorialize it, like the
moment you begin to bring in a script, a beatsheet,
a treatment, you know, that's the time to ask an
audience what they think so you can size it correctly.
(06:54):
But that's just information. It's not saying you live and
die by this, saying that this book How to Score
in Hollywood tells you the pink flags the yellow flags
to look at before you again shoot a frame of film.
And why is that important? Because when you get to
(07:14):
those research screenings, when you actually test your movie, you
can mitigate a lot of those things if you understand
what you have and what people are leaning into before
the process. We also do something called live table reads
before we shoot a frame a film, which is reading
the script with actors, not the actors necessarily that are
(07:35):
in the movie, and we will actually sense some of
those issues of pace and clarity, story clarity, and ending
satisfaction before again they go into production, and that is
enormously helpful and often saves in very costly reshoots.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
You know, there's been many times where I have watched
a film. I cover a lot of movie here at KFI,
and I see the budget for how much they spent
on a movie, and it either doesn't come close to
making that you know, or you know, someone will say
it's a failure if it only makes right at the
(08:15):
budget for the film. And this is really interesting advice
and smart advice. Who would you say that this advice
is targeted towards like your book? Is this for people
like new filmmakers, indie filmmakers, Is this for the studio heads?
Like who is this for?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I'm gonna be honest with you, it is for so
many constituents. And you could really easily getto wise it
and say, well, it's just for the person making the movie.
It's for anyone financing a movie. It's for anyone making
a movie. It's for anyone interested in movies and looking
at a behind the scenes, sort of behind the curtain
view of what goes on in that decision making process.
But you know, Heather, it's also really true to any
(08:55):
product that is launching anything new to the marketplace, understanding
what you have. We make a big case of that
in the trailer I just completed that will go out
into the world. We make a point to talk about
how business owners and entrepreneurs who are launching something really
need to understand, like what do you have, what's the
(09:16):
size of that audience? And are you making it for
the right price. When I was a little boy, I
had a lemonade stand and I would say, now to you,
and I thought about it. Then when I was ten
and eleven, every lemonade stand, if made and marketed for
the right price, should make money. At seventeen, I started
my first dance and acting school in East Brunswick, New Jersey.
(09:37):
I was a professional actor, and all the parents would say,
how did you do this? I want my kid to
do this? And I said, oh, I'm going to capitalize
on that, and I got, you know, at four teachers
and one hundred students. Every dance and acting school made
and marketed for the right price should make money. And
I did. At that age. I kind of intuitively understood that.
So when I look at like all that connective tissue
(09:58):
and where I am today, It's really fun to see
that any business could benefit from these principles of getting
to the truth. The essence of the number of people
who are going to not only like something but be
intensely enthusiastic about it, who are going to be passionate
(10:19):
advocates or evangelists for something. Isn't that cool in any business?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Very cool? Well, I know, I have to let you
go here. In a minute of one final question before
we let you go, your book breaks down the top
ten rules we're sort of making a successful film. Which
one of those rules matter the most right now in
Hollywood where we're still recovering from strikes and shutdowns and
shifting viewer habits.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Well, I think that it is creating something that is
elevated in its genre, because even on any platform, whether
it's a movie theater or a streaming platform, people want
to feel like they're being transported and so creating an event,
creating elevated horror, elevated drama, elevated romantic comedy. You can't
(11:06):
just say these genres don't work on a certain platform.
It's that perhaps they're not as elevated as they should be.
Elevation could come from big special effects It could come
from a great director, It could come from huge visuals,
it could come from a narrative. Look. Dramas today are
not really working in the movie theater. They're really, really tough.
They're suffering a lot. And why is that. It's a
(11:28):
complicated answer, But the one thing I'll say is why
did Oppenheimer do so well? It was elevated, It had
Christopher Nolan, of course, it had effects that showed the
atom bomb. It was an all star cast. It gave
you a reason to leave your home. So I would say,
when you're thinking about a movie to make, think about
how elevated out of the ordinary, out of the predictable.
(11:53):
It could be people craving uniqueness. Even though they want
something that feels comfortable, they want that thing that makes
it feel like an event.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I love that Kevin gets how to score in Hollywood.
Secrets to Success in the movie business is available now. Kevin,
thank you so much. Thanks for listening to entertain me.
You can listen anywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
Welcome back to Entertainment. I'm Heather Brooker. This is a
show where we cover all things entertainment news, from SoCal
to the silver screen. Today we're talking about Hollywood's latest revelation. Audiences,
not executives, are quietly shaping the future of filmmaking. That's
according to movie strategist Kevin Getz, who's tested more than
five thousand films over four decades. In his new book,
(00:22):
How to Score in Hollywood, gets says today's moviegoers aren't
choosing between streaming and theaters. They're choosing the kind of
emotional experience they want, and those choices now influence which
films get made, how they're edited, and where they're released.
Welcome to the show, Kevin.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Heather, thank you so much. It's so nice to be
here with you.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
A lot of our listeners work in or around the
entertainment industry. What's something Hollywood insiders themselves often misunderstand about
why certain movies get made and others don't.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, that's a good question. The It's this a bit
of a complicated answer, but by and large, every movie
is made and marketed for the right price really should
make money. I mean, that's part of the really interesting conundrum.
But so few really make money that they could because
they're not doing the proper work or asking the right
(01:13):
questions pre green light, so that they're making movies that
are two that don't they're making movies for budgets that
often don't support the audience that is committed to seeing them.
That is to say that the audience isn't large enough
(01:35):
for many budgets. So it's important to know what you
have out of the gate and size that audience so
that you can make better financial decisions. As I said
before shooting a frame of film.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
So is it safe to say like studios aren't making
movies that audiences want to see?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
No? No, I think that they absolutely are. We got
to be talking about Look, every movie has a reason
to exist. Because I've worked on over five thousand titles,
Heather and I have to tell you that there's always
a person who loves something. Now it may be an
(02:17):
audience of one, but you, as a filmmaker or a
person financing a film, really need to know that before
you start, so that you're not paying too much money
or budgeting the movie for too much money since so
few people will actually support it, and that in lies.
A lot of the problem is that people again don't know,
(02:39):
aren't aware, don't ask the right questions, don't talk to
audiences about their level of intensity, let's say, in a
project until it's too late. And that's what I'm saying.
Every movie has an audience, and every movie, as I said,
should be made and could be made, but you've got
to make it responsible.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
So it's a matter of if you if you find
the source material and you want to make a movie,
knowing how much you can budget to make that movie
in order to make it profitable for the amount of
audience that's going to go see it.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Bullseye, what you just said is exactly right, And it
was so funny. You know. I wrote my first book, Audienceology,
which is really about the test screening process, right. It's
about the recruited audience screenings before a movie comes out.
How we test our movies with filmmakers and studios. And
I've been doing it for years and years. I've worked
(03:34):
on over five thousand titles. And during that process and
watching so many movies for so many years, I would
sit there Heather and I would go, well, my god,
how did they make the movie this? How did they
make this movie for you know, such a little amount
because I knew the budget going in. Then I look
at another movie, actually most movies, and say, how did
(03:58):
they make the movie for that much money? Oh? My gosh,
they don't have an audience for this. And I wanted
to unpack that. I wanted to say, what is in
the thought process, what's in that that that beginning process
that could be done more effectively? And you you wonder
why so many folks lose money? Uh, And this book
(04:21):
is a roadmap to sort of telling you how you
can succeed every time out. Now, sometimes that might mean
you can't make the movie because there's no way you
can afford to make it, and that is an answer.
But to ignore the audience is really at your own peril.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
So let's talk about a time when audience testing completely
changed a film, or maybe the way it was delivered,
or maybe even involved reshoots. Because as you're you know
you're talking about this, audience is a very important part
of the filmmaking process and knowing your audience. Can you
(04:59):
talk about a time where movies, as they often get tested,
change the film.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Well, nearly every movie I've ever worked on does some change,
So it would be it would be impossible to mention
a specific title. If you brought up a title and
it's been you know, talked about, I can bring it up.
I mean, I work on seventy percent of every movie
that tests in Hollywood, so I would say ninety five
(05:27):
percent of them make some kind of change, whether it's
small editorial changes, like you know, it's a little the
movie's a little fat, meaning it's a little long, so
it needs to be tightened. That's a strong or a
large number of cases. That is the case that we're
trying to streamline the narrative. The ending is really super important,
(05:50):
creating an ending that's both not only emotionally satisfying but
intellectually satisfying. And so you know, intellectually satisfying meaning that
it's answering questions and emotionally satisfying meaning that it is
hitting and touching you in some way. It doesn't have
to be a happy ending, but it needs to be
a satisfying one, one that is truthful to the narrative
(06:12):
before it, I want to make a really clear statement
about something, though, Heather to clarify for audiences, because naysayers
will often say, well, you're talking about art. How can
you measure art and how can you judge art well?
When you're creating art, I truly believe that that is
(06:33):
a very personal experience that's between you and the universe,
or you and the gods, right the person the artist
creating it. But the moment you memorialize it, like the
moment you begin to bring in a script, a beatsheet,
a treatment, you know, that's the time to ask an
audience what they think so you can size it correctly.
(06:54):
But that's just information. It's not saying you live and
die by this, saying that this book How to Score
in Hollywood tells you the pink flags the yellow flags
to look at before you again shoot a frame of film.
And why is that important? Because when you get to
(07:14):
those research screenings, when you actually test your movie, you
can mitigate a lot of those things if you understand
what you have and what people are leaning into before
the process. We also do something called live table reads
before we shoot a frame a film, which is reading
the script with actors, not the actors necessarily that are
(07:35):
in the movie, and we will actually sense some of
those issues of pace and clarity, story clarity, and ending
satisfaction before again they go into production, and that is
enormously helpful and often saves in very costly reshoots.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
You know, there's been many times where I have watched
a film. I cover a lot of movie here at KFI,
and I see the budget for how much they spent
on a movie, and it either doesn't come close to
making that you know, or you know, someone will say
it's a failure if it only makes right at the
(08:15):
budget for the film. And this is really interesting advice
and smart advice. Who would you say that this advice
is targeted towards like your book? Is this for people
like new filmmakers, indie filmmakers, Is this for the studio heads?
Like who is this for?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I'm gonna be honest with you, it is for so
many constituents. And you could really easily getto wise it
and say, well, it's just for the person making the movie.
It's for anyone financing a movie. It's for anyone making
a movie. It's for anyone interested in movies and looking
at a behind the scenes, sort of behind the curtain
view of what goes on in that decision making process.
But you know, Heather, it's also really true to any
(08:55):
product that is launching anything new to the marketplace, understanding
what you have. We make a big case of that
in the trailer I just completed that will go out
into the world. We make a point to talk about
how business owners and entrepreneurs who are launching something really
need to understand, like what do you have, what's the
(09:16):
size of that audience? And are you making it for
the right price. When I was a little boy, I
had a lemonade stand and I would say, now to you,
and I thought about it. Then when I was ten
and eleven, every lemonade stand, if made and marketed for
the right price, should make money. At seventeen, I started
my first dance and acting school in East Brunswick, New Jersey.
(09:37):
I was a professional actor, and all the parents would say,
how did you do this? I want my kid to
do this? And I said, oh, I'm going to capitalize
on that, and I got, you know, at four teachers
and one hundred students. Every dance and acting school made
and marketed for the right price should make money. And
I did. At that age. I kind of intuitively understood that.
So when I look at like all that connective tissue
(09:58):
and where I am today, It's really fun to see
that any business could benefit from these principles of getting
to the truth. The essence of the number of people
who are going to not only like something but be
intensely enthusiastic about it, who are going to be passionate
(10:19):
advocates or evangelists for something. Isn't that cool in any business?
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Very cool? Well, I know, I have to let you
go here. In a minute of one final question before
we let you go, your book breaks down the top
ten rules we're sort of making a successful film. Which
one of those rules matter the most right now in
Hollywood where we're still recovering from strikes and shutdowns and
shifting viewer habits.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Well, I think that it is creating something that is
elevated in its genre, because even on any platform, whether
it's a movie theater or a streaming platform, people want
to feel like they're being transported and so creating an event,
creating elevated horror, elevated drama, elevated romantic comedy. You can't
(11:06):
just say these genres don't work on a certain platform.
It's that perhaps they're not as elevated as they should be.
Elevation could come from big special effects It could come
from a great director, It could come from huge visuals,
it could come from a narrative. Look. Dramas today are
not really working in the movie theater. They're really, really tough.
They're suffering a lot. And why is that. It's a
(11:28):
complicated answer, But the one thing I'll say is why
did Oppenheimer do so well? It was elevated, It had
Christopher Nolan, of course, it had effects that showed the
atom bomb. It was an all star cast. It gave
you a reason to leave your home. So I would say,
when you're thinking about a movie to make, think about
how elevated out of the ordinary, out of the predictable.
(11:53):
It could be people craving uniqueness. Even though they want
something that feels comfortable, they want that thing that makes
it feel like an event.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
I love that Kevin gets how to score in Hollywood.
Secrets to Success in the movie business is available now. Kevin,
thank you so much. Thanks for listening to entertain me.
You can listen anywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
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