April 26, 2021 • 41 mins
Nonverbal Learning Disorder (NLD/NVLD) is a complicated and poorly understood “invisible” disability. Though “NLD’ers” may struggle with a number of issues, difficulty with social skills – understanding subtle cues and abstract concepts – is a main feature. Edythe’s guest, Geoff Hoppe, recently diagnosed with NLD, is an advocate bringing awareness to this often misunderstood and misdiagnosed subject. In this episode, Geoff shares what it’s like to live with NLD, as well as strategies for relating to NLD’ers.
The NVLD Project:
www.nvld.org
Geoff Hoppe on LinkedIn:
linkedin.com/geoffhoppe78
EQ at Work. This series features interviews with people who have overcome significant difficulties by using the concepts of emotional intelligence. We publish every Monday.
Spreaker link:
https://www.spreaker.com/user/atopcareer/s1-ep4-eq-at-work-my-husband-in-prison
YouTube link:
https://youtu.be/7y4a0hTMO1M
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The NVLD Project:
www.nvld.org
Geoff Hoppe on LinkedIn:
linkedin.com/geoffhoppe78
EQ at Work. This series features interviews with people who have overcome significant difficulties by using the concepts of emotional intelligence. We publish every Monday.
Spreaker link:
https://www.spreaker.com/user/atopcareer/s1-ep4-eq-at-work-my-husband-in-prison
YouTube link:
https://youtu.be/7y4a0hTMO1M
---Connect with us!
https://facebook.com/eqatwork
https://instagram.com/eqatwork1
https://twitter.com/eqatwork1
YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/c/ATopCareer
Web Site
https://eqatwork.net
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Is a lot of people with NLDA do tend to
be empathetic, and I think some of that is just
mental hardwiring, and I think some of it is if
you have so many bad experiences and then you see
somebody else in a bad place, you know you've been there,
the bad things are common for you. So empathy, I guess,
maybe doesn't come easier, but it's something that a lot
of us learn to do very well.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Nonverbal learning disorder is characterized by difficulty with social skills
and often spatial and motor skills. It is often confused
with and misdiagnosed as an attention deficit hyperactivity disorder or
ADHD or autism. Edith's guest this week is Jeff Hoppey,
(00:54):
who will share what it's like to have NLD, as
well as how others can better relate to people with NLD.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Hi, Folks, I'm your host, Edith Richards, and you may
know me from my podcast series, Myers Briggs Question Corner
or my website at top career dot com. I've spent
the last twenty years of my career helping people get
smart about their careers, and I've found that lots of
smart people aren't successful. Why is that. I'm convinced it's
(01:25):
due to emotional intelligence. In EQ at Work, I'm bringing
you inspiring people and messages to help you get smart
about your emotions. Diversity, equity, and inclusion are hot topics today.
(01:51):
When we think about diversity, it's easy to identify gender rates, ethnicity,
or age, so called visible differences. But diversity also includes
differences that aren't immediately apparent thinking styles or personality styles,
so socioeconomic levels, education, or even values or beliefs. And
(02:12):
the same holds true for disabilities. Invisible disabilities are not
immediately noticeable. They may include brain injuries, chronic pain, mental illness,
gastro intestinal disorders, and many more. And because we may
not notice them as easily or readily, they may be
overlooked and misunderstood, and unfortunately, this can lead to discrimination
(02:38):
or exclusion. Here with me today to talk on this
topic is Jeff Hoppey, who's a content writer and editor
in the Washington, DC area. We're here today to talk
about one of these invisible disabilities called NLD. Jeff, Welcome
to EQ at Work.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Happy to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Jeff, Can you share with us that's what NLD is.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
NLD stands for nonverbal learning disability, or you see the
D stand for disorder, sometimes same thing. The best tithy
description I've seen of nonverbal learning disability is that it's
the opposite of dyslexia. Whereas a lot of people of
dyslexia have trouble focusing on particulars, but they have a
really great holistic, cosmic view of things. People with nonverbal
(03:25):
learning disability are great at focusing on particulars, but we
have trouble getting an overall holistic view of a situation.
To use the old cliche, a lot of nlders can't
see the forest for the trees, but we will give
you a phenomenally in depth description of the one tree
we're looking at. So I guess back up and give
(03:45):
a more broad description. NLD is a developmental disability characterized
by difficulties with visual spatial perception, organization, time management, short
term memory, making any kind of diferences, interpreting social interactions,
and also we have trouble at nonverbal communication, hence the name.
(04:07):
It's not that we don't talk. In fact, most MLD
people i've met tend to be pretty talkative and more
good at expressing ourselves verbally. It's just that the nonverbal
communication in any conversation is likely to escape us, or
it could. So whereas I think a neurotypical person might
read between the lines and interpret crossed arms or a
(04:30):
raised eyebrow or a slight change in tone of voice
as meaning something, I will not be sure of that.
And a lot of the n elder years I've talked
to feel the same way and have the same problem.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
So when I'm hearing you describe it, I can imagine
that it's caused a lot of difficulties for you in
terms of interacting with people. Would you be able to
share about how it's affected you personally and professionally.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Absolutely, as far as difficulty communicating and interpreting reading signals
and reading between the lines, that's been the story of
my life. It is for many of the friends I
have with NLD. Case in point, I was working a
job once where a girl I was sort of an
acquaintance with. I saw her as an acquaintance, kept sort
(05:20):
of talking to me, and she'd spent a lot of
time around me at the job, and she'd go out
of her way to come say hello. And so then
when at the end of our time working together. She
offered her cell phone number and asked for mine. It
just hit me like a ton of bricks. I had
no idea it was coming a normal person. I think
a neurotypical person would have realized, Okay, these signals mean
(05:43):
she's interested or not interested or something. So that's, you know,
a personal example of how not being able to pick
up on nonverbal signals and cues can change the way
you relate to other people. As far as professionally, it's
been a huge challenge for me, it is for a
lot of friends I know of NLD. I lost my
(06:05):
job at my last full time position because I really
wasn't able to read the signals they were sending. I
got into a particularly tough, rocky situation with the person
who was head of HR at my company, and because
things were not spelled out for me explicitly, because the
people dealing the discipline were good at reading between the lines,
(06:28):
I was unable to realize just how severe the situation was,
and that blew up into a really big situation where
I basically got backed into a corner and wound up quitting.
So it can be something that really does either start
or completely finish opportunities.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Yeah, there's so much just to process From those two
very brief examples here, I guess my first question here
would be, how do you so if this is with
regards to processing nonverbal cues? So most of our language,
most of our communication, most studies indicate it's over seventy
(07:09):
percent that's nonverbal. How do you even begin to come
to terms with that and learn that?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Oh gosh, a lot of.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
A loaded question.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
I know it's been a ton of trial and error.
I'm sad to say it's been a lot of sort
of painful, awkward mishaps. Put bluntly, it's learning when not
to speak and when to speak because I will have
trouble figuring out what the implications of my own statements are,
(07:42):
and I'll have trouble figuring out from other people's statements are.
A strategy that seems to work for me is get
people to be very clear, ask a lot of questions.
If you're thinking about something someone has said later and
you think, oh, they may have meant X, do go
back and ask them. Having NLD can be kind of
(08:03):
exhausting in that regard. It does feel kind of like
having a full time job on top of whatever your
profession is, because you're always picking over what has been
said and trying to interpret it. I mean, it's not
awful that way all the time, but it does take
a good deal of leg work.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
So I mean, just hearing what you're talking about here,
it sounds exhausting to me.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Honestly, there are times when I feel that way. I
started an LD discussion group for people I met online
with the disability this past year, and just having it's
been great. They're a great group of people, but the
value of commiserating with them is absolutely wonderful because it
gives you other people who get what's going on and
(08:46):
get where you're coming from, and who especially get that. Yeah,
it can be pretty exhausting, and there's a lot of
legwork we're doing a good deal of the time that
we're not going to talk about or describe or be
verbal about. It's going on in our head and we're
you know, attempting to do what we can to interact
with the world. That's pretty different.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, no kidding. I mean, I'm so glad that you
found this group of people because I'm sure it just
normalizes all of the experiences for you.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Oh, definitely, that, and it's also good for sharing strategies
and sharing ideas because we've bumped up against some of
the same problems. And yeah, that means if one of
us hasn't thought of something, somebody else may have like I,
because we struggle with short term memory. Short term memory
is bad, and folks with n LD, generally if one
(09:38):
of us, like two weeks ago, I bought up a
hack for how to remember directions instead of just remembering
directions in your head, like left on first Street, right
on third, hold up your left hand when you say
left on first street, and then hold up your right
hand when you say right on third. And if I
do that a couple of times, for whatever reason, the
kinesthetic learning makes it easier for me to remember it.
(10:00):
I don't know why that is, but it's something that
we'll come up with hacks we can share like that
to navigate literally and figuratively.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah, what are some of the other strengths that you
have that have helped you in overcoming these challenges?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Oh gosh, as far as I'll admit it is a
work in progress for me and everyone I have so
far met online and once in person with NLD would
agree with that. That it is something that there's no
solid playbook yet. To compare it again to something like dyslexia,
(10:39):
NLD is not very well known. I think the understanding
of NLD and the NLD community's position is I would
guess like what the dyslexic community's position was maybe fifty
to sixty years ago, where there's not a lot of
knowledge of it, a lot of people have it and
it hasn't been diagnosed. There aren't a lot of people
(10:59):
with NLD as examples of success in life, and there's
not a great deal of therapeutic, practical, helpful literature yet.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Is it almost like a case by case like with
now we're talking about on the spectrum of autism? Is
it something akin to that where it's very individual in
terms of how it manifests to the world.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Oh heck yeah, there's It's kind of a fine balance
because there's definitely times, like with the discussion group I'm
part of, where one of us will mention something and
we'll all say, oh yeah, and it'll all click for us.
But the same phrase that I've heard applied to other
disabilities absolutely applies to NLD, which is, if you've met
(11:42):
one person with NLD, you've met one person with NLD.
I see there can be a big difference, not just
in how it affects you personally, but in what sort
of information you process and how quickly you process, and
in how you handle basic life skills. Just one, for instance,
one of the few books about NLD by someone with
(12:03):
NLD is by a guy whose day job is a
statistical consultant. He works with stats, And to me, that's
just mind blowing because I'm terrible of math, I'm terrible
with numbers. I have a lot of friends with NLD
who are similarly. Yet this guy, his name is Peter Flohm.
Flom is the last name. His book is really good.
I'd suggest anybody with NLD looking it up. And yet
(12:25):
here's Peter Flahm, who works with numbers quite ably for
a living. So there can be a great deal of variance.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Yes, yeah, and personality wise too, just in terms of
personal strengths that you're using to come to terms with
this overcome it. So I think your experience is in
many ways. I love that analogy that you said, if
you met one person with NLD, you've met one person
with NLD. That really puts it into perspective. You were
(12:53):
diagnosed with this fairly recently, is that right?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I was diagnosed when I was thirty four, I guess
it was, and I'm thirty seven now, so and that's
actually pretty common. As I understand as well. A lot
of nlders are initially diagnosed with ADHD or ADD like
I was when I was nine years old, and they
can go a long time thinking that's what they have
(13:20):
and not realizing, you know, that the real diagnosis is ANLD.
It seems like that happens to a fair deal of people,
though from talking to folks online, I think the good
news is that more and more people are getting the
NLD diagnosis when they're younger, when they can really start
structuring their life and getting through adolescents in a way
(13:41):
that may keep them from making the same sort of
mistakes NLD can dispose you to make. I liken it
to the difference between being a drift at sea without
a life raft and with a life raft with the diagnosis.
As the life raft, you are still very much a
drift at sea, But there is a world of difference
(14:03):
between treading water and having like a stable life raft
where even though there's storms and there's big waves and
there's sharks. You are operating with that life raft from
a position of knowledge and strength and stability that you
did not have before. And maybe it's balsa wood, maybe
it breaks, but it's still something. Likewise, there's days when
(14:25):
I get really mad and think there are so many
challenges about NLD that feel insurmountable. But it is so
much better to have a diagnosis, to be able to
orient my attempts to interact with the world based around
the categories and the criteria of the diagnosis. To be
able to say, oh, well, this is an LD problem,
(14:47):
because I talked to my friend Chris who has NLD
and he's had the same issue, Or like a friend
of mine, Matt on my discussion group who because of
confusion and things not being made clear for him and
impulse control issues, he also lost a job two months ago.
And it's great for me to be able to say
that sounds exactly like what I went through two years
(15:09):
ago at Gartner. You know how much in my angrier moments,
I'll think, oh boy, what good does a diagnosis do me?
But that's just frustration talking. The reality is that it's
your ability to stand on your own two feet. It's
kind of I guess like once you finally get a job,
if you're been jobless, like I and a lot of
nlvors go for often pretty long times without work because
(15:32):
a good deal of getting hired revolves around inferring things
about looking good, about social cues. It's all things that
we can't do, so a lot of us will go
long spells with at a job. And even if you
get a job you don't care for, there is still
a great feeling of independence and self sufficiency in the
(15:53):
sense that, Okay, I can actually pay my bills. I
may not like working at say, Barnes and Noble, but
I'm at least getting regular paychecks. I'm no longer dependent
on outside help. This is a springboard I can use
to go somewhere else and do other things. And that,
to me, is very much what a diagnosis does for you.
It is not the end. You've still got to work
(16:14):
the sale and you got to paddle that raft, but
you are at least not dangling your legs out to
be chomped on by a shark.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
I'm curious about what it's like for you when you
meet another person, for example, for the first time, what
happens with you in terms of I mean, especially with
the nonverbal communication.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
The weird thing is, I'm not even sure what signals
I'm giving off when I first meet somebody. I've had
very close friends in the past who said, the first
time we hung out, it seemed like you were really
anxious and you didn't enjoy being there and you wanted
to get away. And I'd say, holy cow, I had
no idea I was giving off those signals. That's not
how I felt. I really enjoyed just getting to sit
(16:57):
and talk with you for a bit. In terms of
first meeting people, it's troublesome for me to know what
signals I'm sending off. It's troublesome for me to read
the signals other people give. I try to deal with
it just by being polite as forward as I can
while still being my introverted self.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah, you've got to be yourself. So, I mean, I
can see back to what you said about how exhausting
this must be if you're constantly questioning the signals that
you're giving off or just replaying that in your mind, Oh,
I should have said this, I should have done this. Yeah,
that must really mess with your head. Huh.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
It's yeah, it's very much like having an overactive internal monologue.
I don't know if you recall that show Scrubs that
was on like in the early two thousands. Yeah, I
feel kind of like JD the main character in that
where he has a really active internal monologue and it
thinks up these really weird things and it just pops
right into his way of thinking when he's talking to people.
(17:57):
But yeah, there is a lot of that, and I'll
so say NLD can be a big source of anxiety,
especially when meeting new people, and anxiety is a pretty
common comorbidity with NLD. A lot of us do wind up.
For the people I've talked to at least benefit from therapy,
particularly old talking cure. They'll just sit on the couch
and talk things out, because yeah, it is. It can
(18:20):
be pretty stressful just getting through the day. I am
not somebody who has ever looked forward to mixers or
meeting new people. And when people say, oh, find any
new job is easy, you just have to network. I
want to be like, Okay, that's chilling, like a turtle
to just hop out of a shell. Yeah, you know,
easier said than done.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Yeah, for sure, and I want to like circle back
a minute to a question I meant to ask earlier,
which was really about how you're harnessing your own strengths
in managing this disorder.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Focus is definitely one of them. Like we were talking
about earlier, how dyslexia has trouble folksing on particulars, but
NLD people can at times get a real hyper focus
on particulars. That can be a strength because it means
I can really zoom in on something that interests me
or that is important to me and learn a great
(19:14):
deal about it. If you want an expert on a
topic and you have a friend with NLD who knows
something about it, they can be your walking encyclopedia. They
will know a great deal, and there's a good chance
they'll be able to know some of the little ins
and outs too. I'd venture to guess that a lot
of neurotypical people just sort of overlook we like going
(19:37):
in depth. We like reading anything and everything about a
topic that interests us. That's a generalization, but thus far
I've found it to be the case with at least
the discussion group, and that's people i've known. I guess
we talk two or three times a month. I think
you would find a lot of NLD people who when
there's something they're interested in, they can hyper focus and
(19:58):
know a lot about it and probably find the little
ins and outs normal people either are not interested in
or just don't realize the importance of I guess another
way to deal with all of this is learn how
to take a punch metaphorically, although you know it's good
(20:18):
literally too, I suppose life skill. I would not recommend
practicing this on your own. Yeah, it's good to you know,
without meaning to sugarcoat it. There are a fair deal
of misunderstandings and frustrations, and you just kind of learn
by necessity. I guess, to get hit and keep on moving.
(20:39):
I always love characters in fiction like that who they
just don't stop, you know. One of my personal hero
one of them is a Somall Jackson, the Confederate General,
and he's somebody who I feel was also probably neurodiverse,
but I like that notion of like that, or if
you're familiar with the story of the three hundred Spartans
at the Pass that they're mop lie. You know, people
(21:00):
who can just stick with one thing and the perseverance
is just remarkable. They don't stop. You know, you throw
an army at them, and they're going to keep coming
at you. That is a necessary survival skill for any
sort of neurodiversity. I don't have all kinds of neurodiverse diagnoses,
but I have a brother with Down syndrome, and I
can tell you from you know, growing up with Greg,
(21:23):
the world was not designed for people with NLD or
Down syndrome. Fortunately, I think the world is getting more understanding,
thank goodness. But when you live in a world that
is designed for people other than you, you just have
to keep on coming. You basically have to learn to
take the callouses and the bruises and just run. Go.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, it takes, you know, a willingness I think for
you to challenge your own thinking and challenge the way
you naturally are. But in that you're finding that perseverance
and it sounds like what you're using to overcome a
lot of the challenges that you have. And that actually
brings me to the next point that I want to
(22:06):
make because obviously this is a podcast about emotional intelligence,
and just hearing you talk about this, I think emotional
intelligence must take on a completely different meaning for you
than it does for other folks.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
I definitely think so. I find emotional intelligence to be
a very difficult thing to get because it seems like
a lot of the parts of emotional intelligence. I think
you said there were eight parts of it.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Well, the model I tend to use, there's sixteen different
elements of emotional intelligence. You know, many people they tend
to think of interpersonal relationships, being a good communicator, being empathetic.
Those areas as what emotional intelligence is, but it also
includes things like problem solving and impulse control and managing stress.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Now that you mention it, yeah, absolutely, it's like you're
reading awful list of things that are tough for people
with But one positive thing I'll say about NLD is
a lot of people with NLD do tend to be empathetic.
And I think some of that is just mental hardwiring.
And I think some of it is if you have
so many bad experiences and then you see somebody else
(23:15):
in a bad place, you know you've been there, the
bad things are common for you. So empathy, I guess
maybe doesn't come easier, but it's something that a lot
of us learn to do very well. But a lot
of those other things you mentioned, like impulse control. That's
very tough for me communicating. Of course, I don't know
what I need to communicate sometimes, and I'm not sure
(23:36):
what other people are suggesting unless they're very explicit. Those
things are all for whatever it is that causes NLD,
and the verdict is out of their theories and ideas.
Those things are all tough. I guess to use an analogy,
it's not that those things are impossible for someone with
nonverbal learning disability, but emotional intelligence is to somebody with NLD,
(24:00):
as say wrestling or gymnastics is to somebody with a
very weak core muscles, with weak core muscles. Naturally, it
is possible to do those sports if you were just
born with really weak abs and core muscles, but it's
gonna be tougher for you, and you're gonna need to
put in more work. Or imagine, like EQ is to NLD,
I would argue as ice hockey or figure skating is
(24:23):
to somebody with weak ankles and you know, weak legs.
You can figure skate and play ice hockey if you
have naturally weak ankles and weaker legs, but you're going
to have to put in more time at the gym,
you're gonna have to watch things. You're gonna be putting
in an extra time when everybody goes home, just doing
calf up and downs to make sure the ankles are strong. Yeah. So.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
And yet, even as you kind of described some of
your strengths, focus and perseverance, you know, just like with
I think anybody else, there's some elements of emotional intelligence
that just come easily to some people more than other
people people, and there's other ones that we constantly have
to work on. And you know, with empathy, Like I
(25:06):
hear what you're saying here, I am a naturally empathetic person,
and sometimes I forget that. You know, hey, not everybody
naturally has that muscle to be empathetic, and they do
have to learn it. Kind of like what you were saying.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
If you're dealing with somebody with NLD who has trouble
with those facets of emotional intelligence, I absolutely argue patience, empathy, sympathy,
because from what I've read at least, NLD is something
that does seem to be caused just by like one
particular physical part of our brains being differently designed. Like
one of the descriptions of NLD or explanations is that
(25:43):
we have smaller spleniums, or like weaker spleniums. There's certain
neural networks in our brain where because the physical parts
of the brain are weaker, those neural networks don't work
very well. So it's possible. But again it's something where
the person with NLD is not just dealing with a
psychological something, but something hardwired and neurological as well. It's
(26:05):
not just a software problem but a hardware challenge.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Yeah, I hear what you're saying here. Just everything that
you're doing is going to take two or three times
as long probably as for somebody else.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I think so certain things, yes, although there's also times
where I don't know what it is about NLD. But
there's times when people of NLD will just immediately snap
get something that neurotypicals don't. There are these weird moments
of intuition and insight. I think because we're so good
at hyper focusing on details that might take a long
(26:39):
time for someone neurotypical to arrive at. But we'll just
look at something and snap, we've got to figured it out.
And I'm not sure what is behind that. I just
know that I've heard it's the same for other nlders,
and that there have been plenty of cases where I've
had friends or family members say, you know, how on
earth did you figure that out? How did you know that?
Just snap to mention one other sort of strength. Long
(27:02):
term memory seems to be a strength for an LD folks. Yeah,
we seem to have short term memory as a struggle,
but we seem to have really good long term memory.
So to kind of jump professional for a minute, we
would be good sources of institutional knowledge, I guess is
what I guess that's the term I should remember. The
(27:23):
term I've written about. Is it institutional knowledge? Institutional wisdom?
What's the term for that?
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Yeah, institutional knowledge.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, we're great for that. The trick is finding a
job where you can stick around long enough and build.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
That up exactly. That's just what I was thinking. So
it's sort of like you have a database in your
mind and you can just call on pieces of information
as needed in the moment.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
It's a brag, but go ahead anyway.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
We want you to brag, Jack, Now.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
This is for the sake of other folks with then
LD as well, then who have the same thing. We're
your ringer on the trivia team. We're going to know
a lot of random things. And that's sort of a
fun parlor game thing. But again, what it can translate
to in terms of interpersonal relationships and success in the
workplace is we have a good sort of long view
of the situation. If you've got a good long term memory,
(28:14):
you don't just look at what the newest development is.
You don't just think, what are the five things you
need in over twenty twenty one. You see things in
a broader timeline, and that can be very useful. You'll know, like,
we're the sort of people who will not just talk
about what's going to be new with the Internet this year.
We're going to say, oh, well, that's different from the
way it was in the late nineties. We remember when
(28:36):
and how the Internet got big. We remember that it
was originally defense communications network.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Your mental database here, that's what I'm going to call it.
And it's almost like you can compare present and past
and you're going to be able to see those details
a little more easily and readily than an average person
or neurotypical as you called them.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Might That's yeah, I think that's one way of putting it.
I don't know if every person is as much of
a history buff as I am, but they do think.
This is I guess an example. I'm glad that you
mentioned that, because what I'm saying and what you're saying
about the database, it's a good example of how somebody
with an LD on one hand, can seem totally out
of water, but they can have a lot going on upstairs,
(29:16):
and they can have a tremendous amount of knowledge about
certain topics and even stuff they're not as interested. And
now that I think about it, it's a struggle for
me to focus on things that bore me, But every
now and then, even things that bore me, I'll still
remember occasionally more than people who like those topics or
know them interesting. Yeah, and it's why this is the case.
(29:39):
I'm not sure. Part of the problem is there is
so little research done about NLD that it's like your
guess is as good as mine. And even within what
research has been done, most of the research is done
on kids. If you're an adult with NLD, you're a
bit sol because there, Yeah, it's like most of I'm
(30:00):
glad the next generation of nlders has research being done
about them, But I do wish there were some professor
or some experts, because I've reached out to a great
deal of them or tried to who wanted to put
an adult in the MRI machine. To this point, all
the studies I've read or seen, they tend to be
you know, we took kids who are ten or eleven
(30:21):
and put them in an MRI machine and saw what
parts of the brain did and didn't light up. I
am desperately hoping at some point someone does that with adults. Though.
In the meantime, if you have NLD, or you know
somebody with an LD, your best strategy is to find
other people, find online support groups, find people you can
talk to, because at the moment it's sort of we
have each other, not a lot of outside help is coming.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
You know, I'm so glad you mentioned that, because that
was actually going to be one of my next questions here.
If someone does suspect that they have this, or they
know someone who has it, do you have any other
suggestions for folks other than seeking out online support suggestions
for other people who suspect they might have it or
know someone he's.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Oh, gosh, the discussion group I've got, we're sort of
starting to expand I'd definitely recommend looking up the NVLD
or NLD project podcast and websites. That's the thing I
forgot that Actually there's another acronym for NLD. It's called
either NLD or NVLD for nonverbal learning disability. But NVLD
(31:24):
dot org is the premier group for scholars and nlders
who study this and write about it and are trying
to get NLD included in the next round of the DSM,
which is the great big phone Book of psychological disordered
disabilities diagnoses. One of the side problems about NLD is
(31:46):
that it is not yet in the DSM, so it's
not recognized by insurance companies, so that's an extra trouble.
But i'd recommend look up the NVLD project if you
suspect it's what you have. The battery of tests is
warning very expensive if you have the money, though, it
(32:06):
is worth every cent because it's the difference between thinking
your problem is one thing that it's not and then
finding out, holy cow, I'm part of something bigger and
I need other strategies and solutions. But the full testing
I did it was jeez. We did the Wexler atult
intelligence scale. We did a bunch of others. It was
I think two or three sessions of like three hours
(32:28):
apiece with a professional psychologist. So it is a lot
to go through, but it is the best money I've
ever spent I got. Yeah, I guess that's the best
advice I have for if you think you have it,
or if you think someone else has it, you're not
exactly sure. MVLD project, you'll have good information. Then you'll
have links to other people, and they've got a couple
(32:51):
of great little explainer YouTube videos linked up that give
you just sort of the basics of what it is
and whether you have it.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Okay, it's very helpful.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
One other question I have with regards to this is
for people, as you described them, neurotypical people who may
live with, or work with, or just know people who
have NLD. Do you have any suggestions for us?
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Oh goodness, I guess just to be patient like you
would be with anyone else. If something seems strange or
off about the way somebody is communicating or asking questions,
you know, don't act like it's really weird. Certainly, don't
ostracize somebody if you think you're dealing with somebody who
has an LD or you know you do. I've had
(33:36):
supervisors who are great because they would come right out
and say, here's what I want you to know about this.
Here's what I'm thinking. Don't worry, I don't mean X.
I do mean why. My last full time job, I
had an absolutely terrific manager, and she was terrific because
she would always say, you know, if I want to
talk to you in private, she say, don't worry, it's
(33:56):
not trouble. It's that I want to talk about X,
y Z. Here's what I'm thinking thinking. What do you think?
She was straightforward about it, she was very explicit. Those
sorts of things can really help someone with then LD.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
So it's really like relying on being very explicit verbally
with what you're saying. And don't assume that facial expressions,
body language, the nonverbal signals are going to be understood
by the other person.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Right bingo. At least for me, it has to be
spelled out, and then it has to be repeated. Even
when something is spelled out, I usually do need a
better repetition and there's that poor short term memory coming in.
But also you know, it needs to be made clear
in a way that will seem overbearing or insulting to
(34:46):
somebody neurotypical, but for me, it's not overbearing or insulting.
It's just Okay, now I get what's going on. Now
I know what you maybe want out of this down
the road, now I know where it's coming from. It's
almost kind of like I want more contact and I
want you to be more explicit because that memory I have,
that great long term memory, doesn't see things in terms
(35:07):
of short term views. It sees things in terms of
everything I know, and it wants to know what's going
to go on. And yeah, so explicit always helps if
you can tell us what you think. The long game
behind your idea is that it's going to help you.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Awesome, very helpful information. Thank you so much, Jeff. Where
can listeners get in touch with you?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Oh gosh, my LinkedIn is probably the best idea. Jeff
is spelled funny. It's Geoff and Hoppy Hoppe. And believe
it or not, there is another one like me who
looks vaguely like me. Okay, he's in Colorado. That's not me.
He is a channeler for the count to Saint Germain,
a strange eighteenth century possible vampire. Don't ask me how
(35:51):
I know that, but yeah, the only other guy with
my name is a channeler for an eighteenth century possibly
undead count. That's luck for him.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Well glad we know that. But yeah, I will put
your LinkedIn profile there in the listening notes for listeners.
Really appreciate you being willing to come and talk about
this topic. You know, I put you on the spot
there quite a bit and really appreciate your openness with this,
So thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Thank you for the opportunity. Yeah, no trouble. I really
appreciate the opportunity to talk about this. And Oh, one
last thing I will mention if you're looking for into
about NLD, look up Chris Rock, the comedian of all people.
This past summer he was diagnosed with NLD. Wow, everybody
just cheered wildly in the NLD community because it's like,
finally we have a celebrity. You know, dyslexia has Orlando
Bloom and Richard Branson and Share and Kira Knightley and
(36:40):
for ages. We kept saying, for God's sakes, give us
a celebrity, and finally we got somebody who's pretty well known.
So if you want to look at it. That's also
there are a couple of interviews with him from I
want to say, like August twenty twenty that are intriguing
because he talks about it briefly, but the things he
says are all, you know, pretty dark, accurate, and pretty
resident for those of us with NLD. Hopefully more and
(37:01):
more people are going to get diagnosed and we will
have our own sort of constellation and stars to help
orient those of us who need diagnoses.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Well, I hope so fingers crossed then for you, Yeah, definitely, Jeff,
It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thanks again, wishing
you all the best in this new year that's upon us.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Thank you Edith. Likewise, and yeah, thanks for doing what
you do. Keep it up.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
In talking with Jeff, it was clear to me that
he's a different person than he was before his diagnosis
with NLD. Before the diagnosis, he'd been wrongly diagnosed with
ADHD and he knew something was off, but he couldn't
pinpoint it. Jeff spent years struggling with disappointments due to
interpersonal challenges, job law, self esteem issues, and much more.
(37:56):
Having an accurate diagnosis offered a new perspective, and it
shows just how important awareness is. Self awareness is a
foundational element of emotional intelligence, and without it we flounder.
We can't account for our feelings. We may bottle up
our emotions and feel hurt by others. As a result.
(38:18):
We may even keep that part of ourselves hidden and
hold on to it until it turns to anger and
hatred and poor impulse control. If we're not aware of
this anger or hatred, it's much easier to lash out
and explode, and that's when we lose friendships or jobs
(38:39):
or worse. The emotional intelligence element of self awareness is
understanding our own strengths, our blind spots, our communication styles,
and everything else that makes us tick. Without adequate self awareness,
we're unable to improve ourselves or our surroundings. There or
(39:00):
we know about ourselves, the better equipped will be to
adapt to situations and challenges that life throws at us.
If this is something you struggle with, learning to reflect
on your thoughts and emotions is key. I want to
share with you the most effective tip I've found to
(39:20):
boosting self awareness, and that is to observe and learn.
Several times throughout the day, pause and check in with yourself.
Ask yourself what emotion am I feeling right?
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Now?
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Give that emotion a name. Is it anger? Is it frustration, disgust?
Or is it irritability? Then note the cause of the emotion,
Why are you feeling this way? What led up to
this emotion? And then note what this emotion looks and
sounds like to other people, what effect does it have
(39:57):
on others? And finally, what can you do to either
stop feeling this way or continue feeling this way? Most
of us actually run on autopilot most of the day,
and it may feel strange at first to check in
with yourself like this, But the more you do it,
the better you'll get at it, and the more you'll
notice which thoughts are helpful and which aren't. And that's
(40:22):
the first step toward positive change.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Thanks for listening to EQ at work. Find us using
the hashtag EQ at work or visit our website eq
at work dot net. Subscribe to this podcast via iTunes, speaker,
or your favorite podcast platform. We'd love you to leave
a rating or review, and if you have a moment,
a simple share would be wonderful. Remember tell your friends.
(40:51):
Mastering your emotions matters. What do immigrants really think about Americans?
Tune into next week's episode, which features the personal, uplifting
story of an immigrant from China in This American Dream
Is a lot of people with NLDA do tend to
be empathetic, and I think some of that is just
mental hardwiring, and I think some of it is if
you have so many bad experiences and then you see
somebody else in a bad place, you know you've been there,
the bad things are common for you. So empathy, I guess,
maybe doesn't come easier, but it's something that a lot
of us learn to do very well.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Nonverbal learning disorder is characterized by difficulty with social skills
and often spatial and motor skills. It is often confused
with and misdiagnosed as an attention deficit hyperactivity disorder or
ADHD or autism. Edith's guest this week is Jeff Hoppey,
(00:54):
who will share what it's like to have NLD, as
well as how others can better relate to people with NLD.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Hi, Folks, I'm your host, Edith Richards, and you may
know me from my podcast series, Myers Briggs Question Corner
or my website at top career dot com. I've spent
the last twenty years of my career helping people get
smart about their careers, and I've found that lots of
smart people aren't successful. Why is that. I'm convinced it's
(01:25):
due to emotional intelligence. In EQ at Work, I'm bringing
you inspiring people and messages to help you get smart
about your emotions. Diversity, equity, and inclusion are hot topics today.
(01:51):
When we think about diversity, it's easy to identify gender rates, ethnicity,
or age, so called visible differences. But diversity also includes
differences that aren't immediately apparent thinking styles or personality styles,
so socioeconomic levels, education, or even values or beliefs. And
(02:12):
the same holds true for disabilities. Invisible disabilities are not
immediately noticeable. They may include brain injuries, chronic pain, mental illness,
gastro intestinal disorders, and many more. And because we may
not notice them as easily or readily, they may be
overlooked and misunderstood, and unfortunately, this can lead to discrimination
(02:38):
or exclusion. Here with me today to talk on this
topic is Jeff Hoppey, who's a content writer and editor
in the Washington, DC area. We're here today to talk
about one of these invisible disabilities called NLD. Jeff, Welcome
to EQ at Work.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Happy to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
Jeff, Can you share with us that's what NLD is.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
NLD stands for nonverbal learning disability, or you see the
D stand for disorder, sometimes same thing. The best tithy
description I've seen of nonverbal learning disability is that it's
the opposite of dyslexia. Whereas a lot of people of
dyslexia have trouble focusing on particulars, but they have a
really great holistic, cosmic view of things. People with nonverbal
(03:25):
learning disability are great at focusing on particulars, but we
have trouble getting an overall holistic view of a situation.
To use the old cliche, a lot of nlders can't
see the forest for the trees, but we will give
you a phenomenally in depth description of the one tree
we're looking at. So I guess back up and give
(03:45):
a more broad description. NLD is a developmental disability characterized
by difficulties with visual spatial perception, organization, time management, short
term memory, making any kind of diferences, interpreting social interactions,
and also we have trouble at nonverbal communication, hence the name.
(04:07):
It's not that we don't talk. In fact, most MLD
people i've met tend to be pretty talkative and more
good at expressing ourselves verbally. It's just that the nonverbal
communication in any conversation is likely to escape us, or
it could. So whereas I think a neurotypical person might
read between the lines and interpret crossed arms or a
(04:30):
raised eyebrow or a slight change in tone of voice
as meaning something, I will not be sure of that.
And a lot of the n elder years I've talked
to feel the same way and have the same problem.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
So when I'm hearing you describe it, I can imagine
that it's caused a lot of difficulties for you in
terms of interacting with people. Would you be able to
share about how it's affected you personally and professionally.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Absolutely, as far as difficulty communicating and interpreting reading signals
and reading between the lines, that's been the story of
my life. It is for many of the friends I
have with NLD. Case in point, I was working a
job once where a girl I was sort of an
acquaintance with. I saw her as an acquaintance, kept sort
(05:20):
of talking to me, and she'd spent a lot of
time around me at the job, and she'd go out
of her way to come say hello. And so then
when at the end of our time working together. She
offered her cell phone number and asked for mine. It
just hit me like a ton of bricks. I had
no idea it was coming a normal person. I think
a neurotypical person would have realized, Okay, these signals mean
(05:43):
she's interested or not interested or something. So that's, you know,
a personal example of how not being able to pick
up on nonverbal signals and cues can change the way
you relate to other people. As far as professionally, it's
been a huge challenge for me, it is for a
lot of friends I know of NLD. I lost my
(06:05):
job at my last full time position because I really
wasn't able to read the signals they were sending. I
got into a particularly tough, rocky situation with the person
who was head of HR at my company, and because
things were not spelled out for me explicitly, because the
people dealing the discipline were good at reading between the lines,
(06:28):
I was unable to realize just how severe the situation was,
and that blew up into a really big situation where
I basically got backed into a corner and wound up quitting.
So it can be something that really does either start
or completely finish opportunities.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Yeah, there's so much just to process From those two
very brief examples here, I guess my first question here
would be, how do you so if this is with
regards to processing nonverbal cues? So most of our language,
most of our communication, most studies indicate it's over seventy
(07:09):
percent that's nonverbal. How do you even begin to come
to terms with that and learn that?
Speaker 1 (07:16):
Oh gosh, a lot of.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
A loaded question.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
I know it's been a ton of trial and error.
I'm sad to say it's been a lot of sort
of painful, awkward mishaps. Put bluntly, it's learning when not
to speak and when to speak because I will have
trouble figuring out what the implications of my own statements are,
(07:42):
and I'll have trouble figuring out from other people's statements are.
A strategy that seems to work for me is get
people to be very clear, ask a lot of questions.
If you're thinking about something someone has said later and
you think, oh, they may have meant X, do go
back and ask them. Having NLD can be kind of
(08:03):
exhausting in that regard. It does feel kind of like
having a full time job on top of whatever your
profession is, because you're always picking over what has been
said and trying to interpret it. I mean, it's not
awful that way all the time, but it does take
a good deal of leg work.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
So I mean, just hearing what you're talking about here,
it sounds exhausting to me.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Honestly, there are times when I feel that way. I
started an LD discussion group for people I met online
with the disability this past year, and just having it's
been great. They're a great group of people, but the
value of commiserating with them is absolutely wonderful because it
gives you other people who get what's going on and
(08:46):
get where you're coming from, and who especially get that. Yeah,
it can be pretty exhausting, and there's a lot of
legwork we're doing a good deal of the time that
we're not going to talk about or describe or be
verbal about. It's going on in our head and we're
you know, attempting to do what we can to interact
with the world. That's pretty different.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, no kidding. I mean, I'm so glad that you
found this group of people because I'm sure it just
normalizes all of the experiences for you.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Oh, definitely, that, and it's also good for sharing strategies
and sharing ideas because we've bumped up against some of
the same problems. And yeah, that means if one of
us hasn't thought of something, somebody else may have like I,
because we struggle with short term memory. Short term memory
is bad, and folks with n LD, generally if one
(09:38):
of us, like two weeks ago, I bought up a
hack for how to remember directions instead of just remembering
directions in your head, like left on first Street, right
on third, hold up your left hand when you say
left on first street, and then hold up your right
hand when you say right on third. And if I
do that a couple of times, for whatever reason, the
kinesthetic learning makes it easier for me to remember it.
(10:00):
I don't know why that is, but it's something that
we'll come up with hacks we can share like that
to navigate literally and figuratively.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
Yeah, what are some of the other strengths that you
have that have helped you in overcoming these challenges?
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Oh gosh, as far as I'll admit it is a
work in progress for me and everyone I have so
far met online and once in person with NLD would
agree with that. That it is something that there's no
solid playbook yet. To compare it again to something like dyslexia,
(10:39):
NLD is not very well known. I think the understanding
of NLD and the NLD community's position is I would
guess like what the dyslexic community's position was maybe fifty
to sixty years ago, where there's not a lot of
knowledge of it, a lot of people have it and
it hasn't been diagnosed. There aren't a lot of people
(10:59):
with NLD as examples of success in life, and there's
not a great deal of therapeutic, practical, helpful literature yet.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Is it almost like a case by case like with
now we're talking about on the spectrum of autism? Is
it something akin to that where it's very individual in
terms of how it manifests to the world.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Oh heck yeah, there's It's kind of a fine balance
because there's definitely times, like with the discussion group I'm
part of, where one of us will mention something and
we'll all say, oh yeah, and it'll all click for us.
But the same phrase that I've heard applied to other
disabilities absolutely applies to NLD, which is, if you've met
(11:42):
one person with NLD, you've met one person with NLD.
I see there can be a big difference, not just
in how it affects you personally, but in what sort
of information you process and how quickly you process, and
in how you handle basic life skills. Just one, for instance,
one of the few books about NLD by someone with
(12:03):
NLD is by a guy whose day job is a
statistical consultant. He works with stats, And to me, that's
just mind blowing because I'm terrible of math, I'm terrible
with numbers. I have a lot of friends with NLD
who are similarly. Yet this guy, his name is Peter Flohm.
Flom is the last name. His book is really good.
I'd suggest anybody with NLD looking it up. And yet
(12:25):
here's Peter Flahm, who works with numbers quite ably for
a living. So there can be a great deal of variance.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Yes, yeah, and personality wise too, just in terms of
personal strengths that you're using to come to terms with
this overcome it. So I think your experience is in
many ways. I love that analogy that you said, if
you met one person with NLD, you've met one person
with NLD. That really puts it into perspective. You were
(12:53):
diagnosed with this fairly recently, is that right?
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I was diagnosed when I was thirty four, I guess
it was, and I'm thirty seven now, so and that's
actually pretty common. As I understand as well. A lot
of nlders are initially diagnosed with ADHD or ADD like
I was when I was nine years old, and they
can go a long time thinking that's what they have
(13:20):
and not realizing, you know, that the real diagnosis is ANLD.
It seems like that happens to a fair deal of people,
though from talking to folks online, I think the good
news is that more and more people are getting the
NLD diagnosis when they're younger, when they can really start
structuring their life and getting through adolescents in a way
(13:41):
that may keep them from making the same sort of
mistakes NLD can dispose you to make. I liken it
to the difference between being a drift at sea without
a life raft and with a life raft with the diagnosis.
As the life raft, you are still very much a
drift at sea, But there is a world of difference
(14:03):
between treading water and having like a stable life raft
where even though there's storms and there's big waves and
there's sharks. You are operating with that life raft from
a position of knowledge and strength and stability that you
did not have before. And maybe it's balsa wood, maybe
it breaks, but it's still something. Likewise, there's days when
(14:25):
I get really mad and think there are so many
challenges about NLD that feel insurmountable. But it is so
much better to have a diagnosis, to be able to
orient my attempts to interact with the world based around
the categories and the criteria of the diagnosis. To be
able to say, oh, well, this is an LD problem,
(14:47):
because I talked to my friend Chris who has NLD
and he's had the same issue, Or like a friend
of mine, Matt on my discussion group who because of
confusion and things not being made clear for him and
impulse control issues, he also lost a job two months ago.
And it's great for me to be able to say
that sounds exactly like what I went through two years
(15:09):
ago at Gartner. You know how much in my angrier moments,
I'll think, oh boy, what good does a diagnosis do me?
But that's just frustration talking. The reality is that it's
your ability to stand on your own two feet. It's
kind of I guess like once you finally get a job,
if you're been jobless, like I and a lot of
nlvors go for often pretty long times without work because
(15:32):
a good deal of getting hired revolves around inferring things
about looking good, about social cues. It's all things that
we can't do, so a lot of us will go
long spells with at a job. And even if you
get a job you don't care for, there is still
a great feeling of independence and self sufficiency in the
(15:53):
sense that, Okay, I can actually pay my bills. I
may not like working at say, Barnes and Noble, but
I'm at least getting regular paychecks. I'm no longer dependent
on outside help. This is a springboard I can use
to go somewhere else and do other things. And that,
to me, is very much what a diagnosis does for you.
It is not the end. You've still got to work
(16:14):
the sale and you got to paddle that raft, but
you are at least not dangling your legs out to
be chomped on by a shark.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
I'm curious about what it's like for you when you
meet another person, for example, for the first time, what
happens with you in terms of I mean, especially with
the nonverbal communication.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
The weird thing is, I'm not even sure what signals
I'm giving off when I first meet somebody. I've had
very close friends in the past who said, the first
time we hung out, it seemed like you were really
anxious and you didn't enjoy being there and you wanted
to get away. And I'd say, holy cow, I had
no idea I was giving off those signals. That's not
how I felt. I really enjoyed just getting to sit
(16:57):
and talk with you for a bit. In terms of
first meeting people, it's troublesome for me to know what
signals I'm sending off. It's troublesome for me to read
the signals other people give. I try to deal with
it just by being polite as forward as I can
while still being my introverted self.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah, you've got to be yourself. So, I mean, I
can see back to what you said about how exhausting
this must be if you're constantly questioning the signals that
you're giving off or just replaying that in your mind, Oh,
I should have said this, I should have done this. Yeah,
that must really mess with your head. Huh.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
It's yeah, it's very much like having an overactive internal monologue.
I don't know if you recall that show Scrubs that
was on like in the early two thousands. Yeah, I
feel kind of like JD the main character in that
where he has a really active internal monologue and it
thinks up these really weird things and it just pops
right into his way of thinking when he's talking to people.
(17:57):
But yeah, there is a lot of that, and I'll
so say NLD can be a big source of anxiety,
especially when meeting new people, and anxiety is a pretty
common comorbidity with NLD. A lot of us do wind up.
For the people I've talked to at least benefit from therapy,
particularly old talking cure. They'll just sit on the couch
and talk things out, because yeah, it is. It can
(18:20):
be pretty stressful just getting through the day. I am
not somebody who has ever looked forward to mixers or
meeting new people. And when people say, oh, find any
new job is easy, you just have to network. I
want to be like, Okay, that's chilling, like a turtle
to just hop out of a shell. Yeah, you know,
easier said than done.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Yeah, for sure, and I want to like circle back
a minute to a question I meant to ask earlier,
which was really about how you're harnessing your own strengths
in managing this disorder.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Focus is definitely one of them. Like we were talking
about earlier, how dyslexia has trouble folksing on particulars, but
NLD people can at times get a real hyper focus
on particulars. That can be a strength because it means
I can really zoom in on something that interests me
or that is important to me and learn a great
(19:14):
deal about it. If you want an expert on a
topic and you have a friend with NLD who knows
something about it, they can be your walking encyclopedia. They
will know a great deal, and there's a good chance
they'll be able to know some of the little ins
and outs too. I'd venture to guess that a lot
of neurotypical people just sort of overlook we like going
(19:37):
in depth. We like reading anything and everything about a
topic that interests us. That's a generalization, but thus far
I've found it to be the case with at least
the discussion group, and that's people i've known. I guess
we talk two or three times a month. I think
you would find a lot of NLD people who when
there's something they're interested in, they can hyper focus and
(19:58):
know a lot about it and probably find the little
ins and outs normal people either are not interested in
or just don't realize the importance of I guess another
way to deal with all of this is learn how
to take a punch metaphorically, although you know it's good
(20:18):
literally too, I suppose life skill. I would not recommend
practicing this on your own. Yeah, it's good to you know,
without meaning to sugarcoat it. There are a fair deal
of misunderstandings and frustrations, and you just kind of learn
by necessity. I guess, to get hit and keep on moving.
(20:39):
I always love characters in fiction like that who they
just don't stop, you know. One of my personal hero
one of them is a Somall Jackson, the Confederate General,
and he's somebody who I feel was also probably neurodiverse,
but I like that notion of like that, or if
you're familiar with the story of the three hundred Spartans
at the Pass that they're mop lie. You know, people
(21:00):
who can just stick with one thing and the perseverance
is just remarkable. They don't stop. You know, you throw
an army at them, and they're going to keep coming
at you. That is a necessary survival skill for any
sort of neurodiversity. I don't have all kinds of neurodiverse diagnoses,
but I have a brother with Down syndrome, and I
can tell you from you know, growing up with Greg,
(21:23):
the world was not designed for people with NLD or
Down syndrome. Fortunately, I think the world is getting more understanding,
thank goodness. But when you live in a world that
is designed for people other than you, you just have
to keep on coming. You basically have to learn to
take the callouses and the bruises and just run. Go.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, it takes, you know, a willingness I think for
you to challenge your own thinking and challenge the way
you naturally are. But in that you're finding that perseverance
and it sounds like what you're using to overcome a
lot of the challenges that you have. And that actually
brings me to the next point that I want to
(22:06):
make because obviously this is a podcast about emotional intelligence,
and just hearing you talk about this, I think emotional
intelligence must take on a completely different meaning for you
than it does for other folks.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
I definitely think so. I find emotional intelligence to be
a very difficult thing to get because it seems like
a lot of the parts of emotional intelligence. I think
you said there were eight parts of it.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Well, the model I tend to use, there's sixteen different
elements of emotional intelligence. You know, many people they tend
to think of interpersonal relationships, being a good communicator, being empathetic.
Those areas as what emotional intelligence is, but it also
includes things like problem solving and impulse control and managing stress.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Now that you mention it, yeah, absolutely, it's like you're
reading awful list of things that are tough for people
with But one positive thing I'll say about NLD is
a lot of people with NLD do tend to be empathetic.
And I think some of that is just mental hardwiring.
And I think some of it is if you have
so many bad experiences and then you see somebody else
(23:15):
in a bad place, you know you've been there, the
bad things are common for you. So empathy, I guess
maybe doesn't come easier, but it's something that a lot
of us learn to do very well. But a lot
of those other things you mentioned, like impulse control. That's
very tough for me communicating. Of course, I don't know
what I need to communicate sometimes, and I'm not sure
(23:36):
what other people are suggesting unless they're very explicit. Those
things are all for whatever it is that causes NLD,
and the verdict is out of their theories and ideas.
Those things are all tough. I guess to use an analogy,
it's not that those things are impossible for someone with
nonverbal learning disability, but emotional intelligence is to somebody with NLD,
(24:00):
as say wrestling or gymnastics is to somebody with a
very weak core muscles, with weak core muscles. Naturally, it
is possible to do those sports if you were just
born with really weak abs and core muscles, but it's
gonna be tougher for you, and you're gonna need to
put in more work. Or imagine, like EQ is to NLD,
I would argue as ice hockey or figure skating is
(24:23):
to somebody with weak ankles and you know, weak legs.
You can figure skate and play ice hockey if you
have naturally weak ankles and weaker legs, but you're going
to have to put in more time at the gym,
you're gonna have to watch things. You're gonna be putting
in an extra time when everybody goes home, just doing
calf up and downs to make sure the ankles are strong. Yeah. So.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
And yet, even as you kind of described some of
your strengths, focus and perseverance, you know, just like with
I think anybody else, there's some elements of emotional intelligence
that just come easily to some people more than other
people people, and there's other ones that we constantly have
to work on. And you know, with empathy, Like I
(25:06):
hear what you're saying here, I am a naturally empathetic person,
and sometimes I forget that. You know, hey, not everybody
naturally has that muscle to be empathetic, and they do
have to learn it. Kind of like what you were saying.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
If you're dealing with somebody with NLD who has trouble
with those facets of emotional intelligence, I absolutely argue patience, empathy, sympathy,
because from what I've read at least, NLD is something
that does seem to be caused just by like one
particular physical part of our brains being differently designed. Like
one of the descriptions of NLD or explanations is that
(25:43):
we have smaller spleniums, or like weaker spleniums. There's certain
neural networks in our brain where because the physical parts
of the brain are weaker, those neural networks don't work
very well. So it's possible. But again it's something where
the person with NLD is not just dealing with a
psychological something, but something hardwired and neurological as well. It's
(26:05):
not just a software problem but a hardware challenge.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Yeah, I hear what you're saying here. Just everything that
you're doing is going to take two or three times
as long probably as for somebody else.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I think so certain things, yes, although there's also times
where I don't know what it is about NLD. But
there's times when people of NLD will just immediately snap
get something that neurotypicals don't. There are these weird moments
of intuition and insight. I think because we're so good
at hyper focusing on details that might take a long
(26:39):
time for someone neurotypical to arrive at. But we'll just
look at something and snap, we've got to figured it out.
And I'm not sure what is behind that. I just
know that I've heard it's the same for other nlders,
and that there have been plenty of cases where I've
had friends or family members say, you know, how on
earth did you figure that out? How did you know that?
Just snap to mention one other sort of strength. Long
(27:02):
term memory seems to be a strength for an LD folks. Yeah,
we seem to have short term memory as a struggle,
but we seem to have really good long term memory.
So to kind of jump professional for a minute, we
would be good sources of institutional knowledge, I guess is
what I guess that's the term I should remember. The
(27:23):
term I've written about. Is it institutional knowledge? Institutional wisdom?
What's the term for that?
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Yeah, institutional knowledge.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Yeah, we're great for that. The trick is finding a
job where you can stick around long enough and build.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
That up exactly. That's just what I was thinking. So
it's sort of like you have a database in your
mind and you can just call on pieces of information
as needed in the moment.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
It's a brag, but go ahead anyway.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
We want you to brag, Jack, Now.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
This is for the sake of other folks with then
LD as well, then who have the same thing. We're
your ringer on the trivia team. We're going to know
a lot of random things. And that's sort of a
fun parlor game thing. But again, what it can translate
to in terms of interpersonal relationships and success in the
workplace is we have a good sort of long view
of the situation. If you've got a good long term memory,
(28:14):
you don't just look at what the newest development is.
You don't just think, what are the five things you
need in over twenty twenty one. You see things in
a broader timeline, and that can be very useful. You'll know, like,
we're the sort of people who will not just talk
about what's going to be new with the Internet this year.
We're going to say, oh, well, that's different from the
way it was in the late nineties. We remember when
(28:36):
and how the Internet got big. We remember that it
was originally defense communications network.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Your mental database here, that's what I'm going to call it.
And it's almost like you can compare present and past
and you're going to be able to see those details
a little more easily and readily than an average person
or neurotypical as you called them.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Might That's yeah, I think that's one way of putting it.
I don't know if every person is as much of
a history buff as I am, but they do think.
This is I guess an example. I'm glad that you
mentioned that, because what I'm saying and what you're saying
about the database, it's a good example of how somebody
with an LD on one hand, can seem totally out
of water, but they can have a lot going on upstairs,
(29:16):
and they can have a tremendous amount of knowledge about
certain topics and even stuff they're not as interested. And
now that I think about it, it's a struggle for
me to focus on things that bore me, But every
now and then, even things that bore me, I'll still
remember occasionally more than people who like those topics or
know them interesting. Yeah, and it's why this is the case.
(29:39):
I'm not sure. Part of the problem is there is
so little research done about NLD that it's like your
guess is as good as mine. And even within what
research has been done, most of the research is done
on kids. If you're an adult with NLD, you're a
bit sol because there, Yeah, it's like most of I'm
(30:00):
glad the next generation of nlders has research being done
about them, But I do wish there were some professor
or some experts, because I've reached out to a great
deal of them or tried to who wanted to put
an adult in the MRI machine. To this point, all
the studies I've read or seen, they tend to be
you know, we took kids who are ten or eleven
(30:21):
and put them in an MRI machine and saw what
parts of the brain did and didn't light up. I
am desperately hoping at some point someone does that with adults. Though.
In the meantime, if you have NLD, or you know
somebody with an LD, your best strategy is to find
other people, find online support groups, find people you can
talk to, because at the moment it's sort of we
have each other, not a lot of outside help is coming.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
You know, I'm so glad you mentioned that, because that
was actually going to be one of my next questions here.
If someone does suspect that they have this, or they
know someone who has it, do you have any other
suggestions for folks other than seeking out online support suggestions
for other people who suspect they might have it or
know someone he's.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Oh, gosh, the discussion group I've got, we're sort of
starting to expand I'd definitely recommend looking up the NVLD
or NLD project podcast and websites. That's the thing I
forgot that Actually there's another acronym for NLD. It's called
either NLD or NVLD for nonverbal learning disability. But NVLD
(31:24):
dot org is the premier group for scholars and nlders
who study this and write about it and are trying
to get NLD included in the next round of the DSM,
which is the great big phone Book of psychological disordered
disabilities diagnoses. One of the side problems about NLD is
(31:46):
that it is not yet in the DSM, so it's
not recognized by insurance companies, so that's an extra trouble.
But i'd recommend look up the NVLD project if you
suspect it's what you have. The battery of tests is
warning very expensive if you have the money, though, it
(32:06):
is worth every cent because it's the difference between thinking
your problem is one thing that it's not and then
finding out, holy cow, I'm part of something bigger and
I need other strategies and solutions. But the full testing
I did it was jeez. We did the Wexler atult
intelligence scale. We did a bunch of others. It was
I think two or three sessions of like three hours
(32:28):
apiece with a professional psychologist. So it is a lot
to go through, but it is the best money I've
ever spent I got. Yeah, I guess that's the best
advice I have for if you think you have it,
or if you think someone else has it, you're not
exactly sure. MVLD project, you'll have good information. Then you'll
have links to other people, and they've got a couple
(32:51):
of great little explainer YouTube videos linked up that give
you just sort of the basics of what it is
and whether you have it.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Okay, it's very helpful.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
One other question I have with regards to this is
for people, as you described them, neurotypical people who may
live with, or work with, or just know people who
have NLD. Do you have any suggestions for us?
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Oh goodness, I guess just to be patient like you
would be with anyone else. If something seems strange or
off about the way somebody is communicating or asking questions,
you know, don't act like it's really weird. Certainly, don't
ostracize somebody if you think you're dealing with somebody who
has an LD or you know you do. I've had
(33:36):
supervisors who are great because they would come right out
and say, here's what I want you to know about this.
Here's what I'm thinking. Don't worry, I don't mean X.
I do mean why. My last full time job, I
had an absolutely terrific manager, and she was terrific because
she would always say, you know, if I want to
talk to you in private, she say, don't worry, it's
(33:56):
not trouble. It's that I want to talk about X,
y Z. Here's what I'm thinking thinking. What do you think?
She was straightforward about it, she was very explicit. Those
sorts of things can really help someone with then LD.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
So it's really like relying on being very explicit verbally
with what you're saying. And don't assume that facial expressions,
body language, the nonverbal signals are going to be understood
by the other person.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Right bingo. At least for me, it has to be
spelled out, and then it has to be repeated. Even
when something is spelled out, I usually do need a
better repetition and there's that poor short term memory coming in.
But also you know, it needs to be made clear
in a way that will seem overbearing or insulting to
(34:46):
somebody neurotypical, but for me, it's not overbearing or insulting.
It's just Okay, now I get what's going on. Now
I know what you maybe want out of this down
the road, now I know where it's coming from. It's
almost kind of like I want more contact and I
want you to be more explicit because that memory I have,
that great long term memory, doesn't see things in terms
(35:07):
of short term views. It sees things in terms of
everything I know, and it wants to know what's going
to go on. And yeah, so explicit always helps if
you can tell us what you think. The long game
behind your idea is that it's going to help you.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Awesome, very helpful information. Thank you so much, Jeff. Where
can listeners get in touch with you?
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Oh gosh, my LinkedIn is probably the best idea. Jeff
is spelled funny. It's Geoff and Hoppy Hoppe. And believe
it or not, there is another one like me who
looks vaguely like me. Okay, he's in Colorado. That's not me.
He is a channeler for the count to Saint Germain,
a strange eighteenth century possible vampire. Don't ask me how
(35:51):
I know that, but yeah, the only other guy with
my name is a channeler for an eighteenth century possibly
undead count. That's luck for him.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
Well glad we know that. But yeah, I will put
your LinkedIn profile there in the listening notes for listeners.
Really appreciate you being willing to come and talk about
this topic. You know, I put you on the spot
there quite a bit and really appreciate your openness with this,
So thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Thank you for the opportunity. Yeah, no trouble. I really
appreciate the opportunity to talk about this. And Oh, one
last thing I will mention if you're looking for into
about NLD, look up Chris Rock, the comedian of all people.
This past summer he was diagnosed with NLD. Wow, everybody
just cheered wildly in the NLD community because it's like,
finally we have a celebrity. You know, dyslexia has Orlando
Bloom and Richard Branson and Share and Kira Knightley and
(36:40):
for ages. We kept saying, for God's sakes, give us
a celebrity, and finally we got somebody who's pretty well known.
So if you want to look at it. That's also
there are a couple of interviews with him from I
want to say, like August twenty twenty that are intriguing
because he talks about it briefly, but the things he
says are all, you know, pretty dark, accurate, and pretty
resident for those of us with NLD. Hopefully more and
(37:01):
more people are going to get diagnosed and we will
have our own sort of constellation and stars to help
orient those of us who need diagnoses.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
Well, I hope so fingers crossed then for you, Yeah, definitely, Jeff,
It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thanks again, wishing
you all the best in this new year that's upon us.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Thank you Edith. Likewise, and yeah, thanks for doing what
you do. Keep it up.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
In talking with Jeff, it was clear to me that
he's a different person than he was before his diagnosis
with NLD. Before the diagnosis, he'd been wrongly diagnosed with
ADHD and he knew something was off, but he couldn't
pinpoint it. Jeff spent years struggling with disappointments due to
interpersonal challenges, job law, self esteem issues, and much more.
(37:56):
Having an accurate diagnosis offered a new perspective, and it
shows just how important awareness is. Self awareness is a
foundational element of emotional intelligence, and without it we flounder.
We can't account for our feelings. We may bottle up
our emotions and feel hurt by others. As a result.
(38:18):
We may even keep that part of ourselves hidden and
hold on to it until it turns to anger and
hatred and poor impulse control. If we're not aware of
this anger or hatred, it's much easier to lash out
and explode, and that's when we lose friendships or jobs
(38:39):
or worse. The emotional intelligence element of self awareness is
understanding our own strengths, our blind spots, our communication styles,
and everything else that makes us tick. Without adequate self awareness,
we're unable to improve ourselves or our surroundings. There or
(39:00):
we know about ourselves, the better equipped will be to
adapt to situations and challenges that life throws at us.
If this is something you struggle with, learning to reflect
on your thoughts and emotions is key. I want to
share with you the most effective tip I've found to
(39:20):
boosting self awareness, and that is to observe and learn.
Several times throughout the day, pause and check in with yourself.
Ask yourself what emotion am I feeling right?
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Now?
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Give that emotion a name. Is it anger? Is it frustration, disgust?
Or is it irritability? Then note the cause of the emotion,
Why are you feeling this way? What led up to
this emotion? And then note what this emotion looks and
sounds like to other people, what effect does it have
(39:57):
on others? And finally, what can you do to either
stop feeling this way or continue feeling this way? Most
of us actually run on autopilot most of the day,
and it may feel strange at first to check in
with yourself like this, But the more you do it,
the better you'll get at it, and the more you'll
notice which thoughts are helpful and which aren't. And that's
(40:22):
the first step toward positive change.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Thanks for listening to EQ at work. Find us using
the hashtag EQ at work or visit our website eq
at work dot net. Subscribe to this podcast via iTunes, speaker,
or your favorite podcast platform. We'd love you to leave
a rating or review, and if you have a moment,
a simple share would be wonderful. Remember tell your friends.
(40:51):
Mastering your emotions matters. What do immigrants really think about Americans?
Tune into next week's episode, which features the personal, uplifting
story of an immigrant from China in This American Dream
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