August 7, 2025 • 36 mins
Shocking details about the "pro-life movement". Get Ben Zeisloft's latest book as soon as it drops.
@FoundersMinistries "Forsakers of the Fatherless"
Watch all of our videos and subscribe to our channel for the latest content >Here<
For blog entries, articles, and much more, visit our website >Here<
@FoundersMinistries "Forsakers of the Fatherless"
Watch all of our videos and subscribe to our channel for the latest content >Here<
For blog entries, articles, and much more, visit our website >Here<
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Living Heritage dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Steadfastcigars dot com.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Welcome back to Eschatologymatters. I am your host, Josh Howard,
and I'm joined today by a repeat guest. But before
we get there, have you ever wondered how you could
possibly homeschool all your children at the same time. Have
you ever felt a tension between discipleship and the academic.
Have you ever longed for a beautiful, uncomplicated, but theologically
sound curriculum that will not bow to the spirit of
(00:49):
the age, Well, you can look no further than Living
Heritage Homeschool. Living Heritage offers a family style K through
twelve curriculum that's centered on beautiful, well written books that
spark the imagination and reach the heart. Your children will
be grounded in church, fathers, Puritans, apologetics, classic hymns, literature
and art, creation science, Biblical Greek, and more. Living Heritage
(01:12):
helps students go deeper through expert video and audio instruction,
and everything is built on daily homeschool family worship and
trustworthy Reformed theology to prepare your children to live for
Christ in the world, all in an open to go format.
Find the curriculum that you've been longing for. Visit living
heritage dot info, Living heritage dot info and get ten
(01:33):
percent off your first curriculum plan when you use the
promo code Eschatology.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
It's in all caps.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
I'm assuming it should be in all caps eschatology at
your checkout again, that's Eschatology. Use that at Living Living
heritage dot info for your order. Ben, thanks for waiting
on me here. I'm joined today by Ben Zeislav. Ben
is the second appearance, third appearance?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
How many times you've been on Eschatology? Second?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I think just the second.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Yeah, we got a remedy that we got to get
you on here. Now it's great talking to you and
catching up well a little bit you came on. I
guess that first episode then would have been a while
back now, hasn't it.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yeah, I think almost two years ago. Yeah, it's been.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Okay, Yeah, it was an early run. But Ben, you're
a fellow Pennsylvanian. You've been a Pennsylvanian. I'm now your
fellow Pennsylvanian as of you know, nine months ago. But Ben,
if anybody's not familiar with you, little maybe update on
yourself where you're working some of those things we were
talking about, and little capture on that.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Absolutely I'm Benz Aisloft. I'm the communications director for the
Foundation to Abolish Abortion, So we write an advanced a
lot the ego protection legislation that you see across the country.
So right now we have to believe sixteen seventeen bills,
sixteen seventeen states somewhere in there active abolition legislation trying
to establish ego protection of laws for peop born children.
(02:48):
I also write it edit for the Sentinel of the
Western Journal a few other conservative news outlets, So that's
what I'm doing these days.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yes, fantastic.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
And you just wrote a book which is obviously while
we're talking today, and you wrote it through Founders, which
founders press Near and dear to our hearts. We love
those guys, Tom Askell and Randy and all the all
the others that are involved with that. But your book
was called for Sacres of the Fatherless, the secret treachery,
treachery of the pro life establishment, and you were kind
enough to send me a pre pub PDF, really engaging book.
(03:19):
I've got questions, but this comes out I believe August.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Is that correct what I saw? Yep, that's correct.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah, So I'll be able for preword now and then
should be shipping in early August.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yes, perfect, So pre orders are all up.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
I mean right now we're recording this late July, so yeah,
the book should be coming out soon. Tell me this,
because there's there's a lot here and and I think
I would fall into the category of one of those
guys that has been in ministry has felt passionately about
and I don't even want to say pro life for
all the reasons you're going to get into. I felt
passionately about protecting the lives of the not yet born,
(03:51):
the little preborn babies that are running around and in
those wombs, and we care about them, we pray for them,
we want to see as best we can them protected
by the law and even the culture and norms of
our country. And so when this when this sort of
abolitionist and it's not a new thing, but when you
saw the sort of a lot of the abolitionists maybe
(04:12):
becoming a little bit more pronounced, a little bit more
public with some of their declarations, I started digging into it.
And then I don't remember which documentary it was that
I started to see, but a lot of guys have
started to cover this with how these bills go through legislatively.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Some of the hiccups that happen.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
So again I'm running ahead a bit, but I think
I was one of the guys that was maybe maybe
not late to the game, but a little bit late
to the game and trying to play some catch up
on this. So just briefly and in general, what are
you guys up to, How does that look different with
your organization? How does that look a bit different than
the pro life movement? And then we're going to get
into some of the book things too and tease out
some of that.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
But how what are we talking about here?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Absolutely? Yeah, So abolition is distinctly Christian movement. That's probably
the biggest difference between abolition and maybe Madstream established and
pro life ism. So what you'll notice with abolitionist is
we try to go to the root of what God
says about civil justice, national repentance, some of these categories
actually matter for ending something like child sacrifice in the nation.
And what I contend, what I would contend now and
(05:08):
of course in the book too, is that a lot
of pro life groups are trying to do what seems
pragmatic and best in the moment. So maybe they regulate
certain aspects of abortion make it harder to access, instead
of you know, treating it like murderers, saying murder should
just be illegalists do that, they'll try to find ways to,
you know, make it more restrictive or harder to get to.
But I would contend that that's not in line with
(05:29):
God's justice, what he what he tells us to do
in his word, considering love for our neighbors. So that's
one of the main differences and divides in terms of
what we do at foundation to polish abortion. Our bills
are very simple. It just says, take the existing homicide assaults,
wrongful death laws that already exists to protect born people
and apply them to preborn people as well. So your state,
all fifty states, of course already have laws pertaining to
those crimes. And if we're saying that born and preborn
(05:51):
people are exactly the same in God's eyes, same in value,
you know, different of course in size, level developments some
one of those things, but they should be all preticted
by the same exact laws, because I for all, meaning
God's image, we should be protecting the same way and
true you the same way under the law or else
that's partiality and you get into some of those categories
in scripture that God says you shouldn't you know, of course,
discribe it between people show partiality versus, you know, choose
(06:14):
favors in terms of who gets protected by the law.
So that's what abolitionism is broadly in what foundation debolish
abortion is trying to do at the state level.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Okay, And so the fact that you've titled the book
the Secret Treachery of the pro life Establishment, I'm assuming
this runs counter to the broad swath of pro life movements.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Would that be fair?
Speaker 1 (06:32):
That's exactly right. So in a lot of states, the
opposition to that idea, that very very basic biblical idea
of equal protection constitutional idea, of course, the fourteenth Amendment
of the Constitution has been arising from mainstream establishment pro
life groups. So you would think that it's planned parenthood,
it's the pro abortion lobby that would be, you know,
antagonistic towards that idea, and of course they are, and
increasingly so as we grow. But really it's been the
(06:55):
pro life groups have been really hesitant to get on
board and finding reasons not to support that position, which
is that which is the shocking element of the book.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah, So like, okay, so you're talking about equal protection
and correct me on any any given number of these
ben But so we we're talking about equal protection under
the law. What you're saying is to extend equal protection.
You know, somebody on this side of the womb, you
murder them, there's consequences, equal protection, they would extend it,
I would say, rightfully. So to that one that is
on the inside of the womb, we're saying, no, they
(07:23):
both need to be protected because they're both life creating
the image of God, all the reasons we protect somebody
anywhere else as well. So you're saying to extend that
equal protection, why would anybody? Well, first of all, how
novel is that concept? Is this something that like modern
abolitionists have cooked up? Is this something that like sprung
out of the theonomy of the seventies and eighties, Like
what exactly is that equal protection?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
And how novel is that? Within our country? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
So, of course, the fourteenth Moendment came after the Civil
War reconstruction saying that we should, you know, looking at
black individuals who were previously enslaves, saying they need to
be treated equally under the lodge just because of the
color of their skin. You don't have to get to
discriminate against some sensive historical foundation of the fourteenth Amendment
in our nation. But really, the the rebirth of the
abolitionist movement started, and it's the first chapter of my
book for a Reason, with a guy named t. Russell
(08:08):
Hunter in Oklahoma who is studying for his PhD in
the history of science and looking at some of those
nineteenth century ideologies evolutionism, Darwinism, but also abolitionism, and he
starts reading these these guys like Frederick Douglass and William
Lloyd Garrison, and he sees, you know, these are Christians
trying to apply the Word of God to public evil,
and they sound very very different from how the pro
lifers of the modern day sounds. So they're they're going
(08:30):
back to the scriptures. They're explicitly Christian. They're quoting from
the prophets and the law and invoking those you know,
highest ideals when they're when they're arguing for their positions.
And you know, if you look at a lot of
pro life group state they argue mostly from a secular
basis from biology or philosophy, which is fine, but of course,
as Christians, we first and foremost are greatest authority is
God's explicit revelation in his word. So there are some,
(08:53):
I guess theonymous impulses, a lot of a lot of
theonomous are abolitionists for a reason is because it's trying
to apply God's word in our public life. So of
course you're going to attract a lot of theionomous and
people who are just interested in that and doing that
in general. But that was sort of the rebirth of
that movement was maybe about fifteen years ago, twenty ten,
twenty eleven with that, and it's explode across the country
(09:13):
because if you talk to any bile believing, serious Christian
about it, they're going to be Yeah, of course it
makes sense. Why wouldn't we treat abortion as murder? Just
treat everybody the same, no matter whether or not they're
born or preborn.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Yeah, And I want to get into that because that's
part of the argument that I find really compelling and
really really interesting the way it's reacted against.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
But what's your what is your sense on why why
this sort of thing changed?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
You know, you're describing like maybe a you sided like
fifteen year maybe a fifteen year retrieval period they're about
something like that, and these these things are starting to
come to the forefront. And I know, for example, I've
tracked with there's several of you that are that are
kind of working in tandem across various states, and so
I'm starting to pick up on these things trying to
move through state legislatures. It seems like a lot of
(09:55):
them are picking up a lot more steam than they
were in years past. Again, I already admitted I was
a little late to the game, right, but it does
look like there's kind of a forward momentum on this.
When did that change to begin with? What do you
have a sense for why modern pro life movements? Because
I'm an I'm an eighties baby. I have the clean
shaven face, but there's years of there's years of aging.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Behind this ben.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
But you know for eighties babies, you know, you grew
up in the eighties the nineties, you know, like pro
life that that was like part and parcel of being
a Christian in America at least where we grew up.
So so like, at what point was that was that
shifting away from something that would look toward equal protection
and and sort of taking on this morphology that you
described a minute ago.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah. Absolutely, And I also want to be clear, there
have been abolitionist ideas at proto abolitionist ideas for pretty
much the entirety of the pro life movement. People have recognized,
you know, the endgame is is treating people equally under
the law. So you have folks like Rusty Thomas who
wrote review to my book, who's a long time leader
in the pro life movements, rescue movements, those sorts of things,
who now who looked at abolish and said, yeah, of course,
(10:57):
this is this is how we should treat it biblically,
of course. So I don't I want to be clear,
it's not like it came out of the ether either.
There was a history to this. But in terms of
you know where this where this came from, I think
a big problem was, you know, several decades after Row,
very little headaway was gained with actually ending abortion. So
it kind of you know, brought it kind of called
(11:17):
the question in terms of how are we actually approaching
this is actually good to work? Is our strategy working?
You know, is doing things like partial birth abortion bands
and you know heartbeat laws. Are these actually effective in
reducing abortion numbers? And really more importantly actually getting us
to a point where you can truly end abortion, or
is it just this infinite regress of regulations you can
(11:38):
put on a very wicked, abominable practice, because keep in mind,
a lot of these a lot of these bills don't
actually tell you you can't you can't murder your baby.
It just gives you certain hoops to jump through before
you legally can. And there's some examples of that in
the book as well of you know, even some bills saying,
you know, here's the number of ways you're allowed to
murder baby, and then here's the ways you aren't. But
keep in mind, you can still murder the baby, you know,
(11:59):
in these certain ways you're allowed to. So really obviously
thinking people Christian people are going to look at that
and say, this doesn't sit right with me. You know,
the God I know is concerned about public justice. He
doesn't make these kind of You don't see anything like
that in the Old Testament and the prophets. Like I said,
it's just not something that came from the heart of God.
It's more the practice of man. I think people started
realizing that over time.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yeah, I'm curious because the historical development is really interesting
to me. You know, it's good to you know, know
where these things come from and kind of think of
those things. But also just like boots on the ground,
I'm going to ask you, but I've got to lead
into it, but I was going to ask you about, like,
what are you seeing as the red flags that at
least many within the pro life you know establishment, because
(12:42):
you've brought up obviously many in the pro life movement
I think would be sympathetic to many of the things
you're saying. But the book is titled, you know, the
Secret Treachery of the Pro Life Establishment, which I'm assuming
that word establishment is doing a lot of work in
that title, carrying a lot of water. But if we're
looking at that sort of thing, I'm curious what the
red flags are that they are raised. And this is
this is this is something that popped into my head
(13:03):
when when when you sent the book over and I
was I was checking it out.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I was thinking of.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
And this isn't to try to bust anybody out, but
we we had partnered with a a sort of a
pro life group in a previous state. We worked with
them in ministry and they would do you know, fundraising
events and all of this, and for the for the
most part, their work was very good. They didn't do
everything the way I would have set it up, and
and everything was not perfect, but in general they were
doing good work in a needed environment. For that, we
(13:30):
for that we can be thankful. However, they had one
of their fundraising events and you're talking. You know, you've
been to these fundraisers, and you're trying to you know,
you're trying to not only get people to open their pocketbooks,
but you're trying to invest them in the mission of
the agency, right like you want them to care. And
I noticed over this event, which was probably you know,
four hour event or whatever the whatever it was, over
the entirety of the event, the life of the child
(13:53):
was not mentioned once, not one time. And so I
knew the people that ran this organization. We had some
long meetings after that, and they were describing a lot
of things that were good. You know, we care about
the mother and her health and her well being and
her flourishing.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
We care about fathers and fathers and homes like.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Everything they brought up was very good. But there was nothing,
as far as I could tell, of the central issue
for which I and many other pastors were there, which
was we care first and foremost about this child who
is actually facing death. We don't want that child to die. Know,
do we care about these other things, absolutely, like let's
talk about all those but like the reason we're here
is this child, and we didn't even mention that those children.
(14:29):
That seems odd. It seems like mission drift a bit.
So I'm curious. I wonder if that might play in
to my question. But what are the red flags that
any pro lifer would raise when when you were, somebody
else brings these bills of abolition to a state house.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yeah, that's exactly right. So the opposition we'll usually hear
is that we're targeting the mothers or or we're criminalizing women,
something like that. And you gotta keep in mind, these
bills just say equal protection of the laws. So anybody
who willfully murders a baby in the womb faces the
same penalties as if they had murdered baby outside the womb.
So and for you know, for a variety of reasons,
a lot of project groups have sunk into the mindset
and the woman is always the victim of the abortion
(15:06):
or second victim of abortion. Go hear sometimes and t
which we would say, of course, that happens sometimes. There
are certainly women who are victimized by abortion, pressured coerced
into it. I've seen that install of the ministry, you know,
women clearly not wanting to be there, being forced into there.
Once or twice, we called the police when that's happened,
But the vast majority are are you know, just watching
them with my own two eyes and just seeing movements
(15:28):
like shout your abortion arise in recent years. The vast
majority of women who have abortions are willfully trading the
life for their baby for something else, whether it's their career,
whether it's remaining in college, whether it's just avoiding the
inconvenience of being a mom, right because being a parent
is a lot of hard work, and especially being the
mother to a newborn. So that's why we call it
child sacrifice, by the ways, because we're switching out, you know,
(15:51):
what God has given, you know, a baby, for something
else that is deemed more valuable than that human life.
But the pro life groups have a lot of issues
with with that mindset of saying that women candy be
responsible for an abortion and should be held accountable under
the law if they are deemed by a court of
law to be responsible. So that's that's one of the
main reasons why we were told that our bills can't pass.
(16:13):
And and like you said, you know, the rhetoric has
so shifted, there's been so much mission drift that they've
almost forgotten about the baby. Once you see that, Josh,
you can't really unsee that. On social media and their videos,
it's always the mother and then the child, or even
just the mother. A lot of times the baby is
hardly even mentioned. And I think, you know, Christians ought
to recognize there's there's the true victim of abortion is
the baby who's getting his or her life taken. And
(16:35):
there are cases where, of course the mother may be
victimized and you know, pressure into it, in which case
we should also hold accountable anybody who's pressuring her into it.
And we can get into this later. But part of
the reason why you know, it's bad to exempt mothers
at all from criminal prosecution is because it's not actually
illegal to pressure somebody into doing something that's alreadyllegal for
them to do. So it's it's in the best interest
(16:55):
of everybody in mind just to say murdering anyone should
be illegal for everyone. That's like what we like to
said the Foundation to Polish abortion. Murdering anyone should simply
be illegal for everyone. If we're saying we're all equal
under God's eyes, we should have equal protection of the laws.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yeah, and it's it's interesting because it does pull out
your heartstrings a bit before I get into that. So
you you mentioned a minute ago that like your subjective experience,
and I don't mean that like pejoratively, I mean just
like you know, your your boots on the ground experience
and what you've seen, which by side point to my
side point, I think so many people might change their
mind if they did more boots on the ground ministry
(17:30):
and in the in the settings that you're talking about.
Maybe you can speak to that in a minute then,
but I sense that maybe maybe that might change some
minds on some of these issues. But even statistically, like statistics,
and I had I had it pulled up and I've
lost it before we jumped in on the interview, but
the vast majority, like you said, statistically, these are elective abortions.
(17:51):
So we can talk about, as you said, like those
who are pressured or maybe even you know, people always
bring up some sort of some sort of medical emergency
or some thing like that, which I don't think statistically
those even fall under abortion. Those usually fall under birth care.
And it's the unintended death of one of the two parties,
not an abortive situation. But still we're talking about statistical
(18:13):
outliers in those situations. The vast, vast, dominating majority is
just simply elective abortions. I don't want this thing to continue.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
That. Has that been your take?
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yeah, absolutely, it's been well establish at this point that
you know, rape and incests and the excuses that are
being made for all abortions. The other ninety eight percent
being legal are a very slim percentage of what's happening.
And of course, even in those cases, we wouldn't say
that it's right to take the baby's life because something
the father the mother did in terms of their conception.
So we even still with that, it's not godly, it's
(18:45):
not in accordance with this law to say that, you know,
there are a certain class of people because of the
way in which they came into the world, they should
be legally murdered.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yea.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
And of course you know the reason those those fringe
cases are brought up is usually because you know, they're
trying to justify the either ninety eight percent. So if
you ask pro abortion people, you know, if I agree
with you on that two percent, would you agree with
me on the other ninety eight and say that should
be banned? And they'll always say no. I've asked that
to dozens of them at this point. They'll always say no.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
So yeah, it's it's it's it's a sheer, emotional sabotage play,
like like Joe Rigney says, it's not a sincere argument
at all. It's it's very disingenuous. It is trying to
get you know, the Christian who actually does care about
women who are victimized to to you know, negates the
rest of the babies who are being victimized because of
some friend situations.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Right yeah, And I think that is the and it
gets weaponized. You know, I appreciate you riffing off Joe
right there, because it does get weaponized, this this impulse
toward empathy that we have. But I think a lot
of people are convinced. Of course that doesn't that doesn't
negate what I just said about being weaponized by empathy
because a lot of people are convinced that, like, this
sounds like you really hate women, and in fact, like
(19:50):
a lot of the a lot of the rhetoric that's
been used is that you hate mothers, which it has
been I think aptly pointed out that that is very
ironic use of terms. But but I think a lot
of people when they react to this, it's like when
you talk about equal protection. Obviously, if you're talking about
equal protection, you're protecting them from somebody.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
So part of this.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Equal protection means protecting that child from anybody who would
do them harm unto death, including the mother, including the doctor,
or anybody else that might that might try to do
them harm. So when people hear that, they think, ah,
you want to penalize mothers. And you've already listed a
couple of these ben but like maybe just kind of
spitballing and walking through these, what are some of the
reasons that it's very compelling to actually move in that direction? Now, again,
(20:32):
I think you've stated your case pretty well. This is
a movement of actual care for that mother, isn't This
isn't looking to be mean to women in any regard.
But why is it important then to recognize her as
not just a victim. Why can't we just get away
with that? Why can't we just go along with that? Like,
what are some of the reasons that make this compelling?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Absolutely so, if you look at the situation on the
ground right now, the majority of abortions are not even
happening through surgical So we still think when you hear
the word abortion going to a planned parenthood, you know,
laying down the operating table and having a doctor rip
your baby out of your womb or vacuum or whatever.
The actual majority of abortions now in the United States
are through abortion pills and through other self induced or
self managed mechanisms of abortion. So you know, it's instead
(21:14):
of the clinic, it's you know, you go online and
you spend one hundred and two hundred dollars with buying
a couple of pills and they get sent to you
in the mail in a couple of days, and that
means the whole anybody anywhere. It could be the abortion clinic,
it could be you know, a woman in college her
dorm room, it could be just your bathroom, whatever the
case may be, and you murder your child in complete anonymity,
and nobody hears about it. Nobody knows except maybe you
(21:35):
or God, or maybe in some cases your boyfriend or
your husband. But that's the way that abortion is going.
It's not so much, you know, the physical abortion clinics.
And the reason that matters is because the people who
are most often ordering those pills are the women themselves.
So the women are being their own abortionists, right It's
it's a self managed, self induced abortion. Nobody else is
applying any kind of medical procedure tour. She's willfully ordering
(21:57):
these pills and taking them in all the rest so
they That's why you know, the egal protection argument is
so important right now, is because there's really no other
way to actually end that from happening. If there's a
whole class of people that is exempt from all criminal
penalty for willfully murdering their babies, and that class people
also happens to be the exact same class that's doing
it the most, that we have a real problem on
our hands. But also, you know, with these women, they
(22:20):
are of course image bearers of God, they're morally culpable
and responsible, but they're also they can also receive redemption
in Jesus Christ so if we say that all women
are categorically victims of abortion, that actually precludes them from
the gospel because in order to receive forgiveness, you have
to confess and repent of your sins, and you can't
see of course, the victim doesn't have to do that
because victim has something done to them, instead of the
(22:42):
victim doing something to sin against God. So when we
tell the entire culture of you know, one in four
women having murdered their babies through abortion at some point
in their life, that oh, you're just a victim, we're
precluding them from the grace of God in Christ. So
as Christians we care for souls. And you know, so
many people out there have you know, so you probably
looked at the end of the pressants and things like that,
(23:02):
and it's directly correlated to this. So many people have
unresolved guilt about the fact that they killed their baby
at some point in their life, and the only way
out of that is the gospel. You know, I know
so many women in the abolitionist movement who have done
exactly that. They've murdered one, two, three babies in their life,
and at some point God broke them and drew them
to himself in Christ. And you know now they're sharing
the message too, saying I was not a victim. If
(23:24):
it were illegal when I was having my abortion, I
wouldn't have done it. But now that I have done it,
I want people to know that there is forgiveness in
Christ and that this should just not be allowed at all.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Yeah, and that to me is one of the most
because I wanted to ask you towards the end of
the interview, you know, boots on the ground for Christians
are what are some of the things we can do?
But pastorally, you know, I served within within a pastoral role,
and that's that's where I think it hits home to me,
is that with any given sin, you know, the sins
that we want to tiptoe around, the ones that are
socially awkward or unacceptable. Every time June rolls around and
(23:57):
Pride Month is raging, although thankfully didn't seem to rage
as much this past year, so maybe that was maybe
that was a measure of God's common grace. But still,
you know, when when people say, you know, why do
you want to be so mean to those engaged in
home sexual lifestyles?
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Why do you want to be so judgy.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
It's like no, no, no, Like what I want them to
know the thing they're doing is actually sin against God.
It actually leads to their destruction here and the life
to come. And I want them to I want them
to find redemption. I want them to turn to Christ,
knowing that Christ is a sufficient savior. He can save
them from this sin and and can and will forgive
those who seek Him in faith, like I want them
to know that. And when you tell them, and and
and when I say them, I mean, now, anybody engaged
(24:31):
in any sin, if you if you assure them that
what they're doing is not in fact sin like you
just pointed out, you're robbing them of that gospel message.
I think pastorally, this is very important with the pro
life movement because I can think of very few settings
that propagate this as much as for example, like post
abortive care. Uh, you know, survivors groups or or ministry groups.
(24:53):
There's there's lots of groups that well meaning Christians and
well meaning churches will house and they will talk to
women as you mentioned, one in four or statistically many
of them within our churches, and they'll have these groups.
It's really important what you tell them about what they
went through. Because if you're doing this group under the
guise of the church and within a church house wall,
and you're telling them what you've done is not actually sin,
you're actually a second victim. You're actually robbing them of
(25:14):
that opportunity to repent. That's that's a very key pastoral
and I think churchwide concern that you're pointing out. Man,
I got so sidetracked that I forgot where I was going.
But look at this looking.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Back at it, right, Yeah, yeah, like a lot of
the secular psychology and things like that. You see that
a lot in a lot of the pro life movements language,
and I should I should have added earlier. So you
noted pro life establishment. So when I say prolf establishment,
I mean differently from you know, the average on the ground.
You know, pro life person Christian in our culture that
those are two very different things. But in any case,
you know, the psycho psychologicalization, however, you say that word
(25:51):
of post abortion care of just the whole issue of
abortion is is hugely problematic because you know, it loses
clarity in terms of you know, defying things of God
finds them, calling it murder, calling it sin, calling it
a crime, and that's a huge distraction from the justice
and the individual redemption that needs to take place.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, no, that's that's very helpful.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
So when you talk about establishment, you know, I thought
about making nineteen sixties joke.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I'm gonna hold back on that.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
But still when you look at establishment, like, what exactly
are you referring to, because I get the sense just
just outside looking in, a lot of these bills move forward,
they hit they hit you know, state house floors, they
hit courtroom floors, and advocates of equal protection will will
show up to the floor. And the people that show up,
as you pointed out, from the pro life movement, these
(26:39):
aren't at least from what I've seen, and maybe you
can correct me, I'm not seeing people from the community
that are super involved. I'm not seeing you know, moms
and pops, you know, banding to get it. When you
refer to establishment, that's who I've seen opposing these bills.
These are these are those who are paid by these
movements frequently they have they have vocational jobs within these
Is that is that kind of what you're keying in
on here with the establishment phrase there in your in
(27:01):
your title.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Exactly. Yeah, it's a it's a handful of decades old
national groups and in state groups two that tend to
pose these bills, and it's it's a sort of lobbies
who's been around for for forty years, you know, pushing
the exact same kind of incremental regulatory bills rather than
actually trying to end abortion. So that's that's the sort
of person you see. And throughout the book you'll kind
(27:22):
of notice that pattern is it's the longtime pro lifer
who's been pushing, you know, those sorts of like that
sort of legislation for their entire career. Of course, it's
pretty hard to go back at the end of your
career and say I was wrong this whole time. You know,
this actually hasn't helped. Abortion is higher, in my statement,
than before I started. So it's a lot of pride
and starkness. Unfortunately, a lot of people like to point
to money and say, well, they're just they're on the
(27:43):
payroll and that's why they're they're doing this. I think
it could be part of it. You can't really read
the individual heart, but I think a more compelling explanation
is it's the pride of having spent your entire life
doing something that hasn't worked, and it's really hard to admit,
you know, this has failed. I should at the end
of my life repent and and try to do things
in a more biblical way. But yes, to answer your question,
that's usually the kind of person who the longtime lobbyist,
(28:05):
who will who's already who's known the majority leader for
decades in a certain state, has known the speaker for
fifteen years or whatever the case may be, and they're
just mister pro life in that state, and they kind
of whatever they say goes in terms of what laws
get past that year.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
So I wonder, because before I get to the boots
on the ground question, I wonder if there's any other
red flags that we have not raised. I'm sure there's many, right,
I'm sure there's a lot, And like you just mentioned,
there's a lot of motivations that come from behind this,
which is not always the almighty dollars, sometimes just our
own pride and our own investment in something. But I'm
wondering what you're seeing as red flags, you having not
(28:40):
only worked in this but also now written on it
and many other things. Because when I think of the
red flags, I'm still thinking back on that the empathetic flag,
and it's so strange. You know, we have laws against
you know, heroin or hard drug use. I've never heard
anybody say that it's unloving to have penalties associated with
those even for those who are engaged in it. Now
(29:01):
that you might approach you might approach those things differently.
You might not enforce them, and I don't think judges
do enforce them the same for the person who's hooked
on a hard drug as opposed to the person who's
selling it to them. You have rehab facilities, like, there's
lots of care associated with those things. But I don't
think I've ever heard anybody make the case that that's
being unloving to the person to have a law prohibiting
the thing which will actually harm them in others. So
(29:23):
my mind is still kind of stuck there. But any
other red flags that you're seeing, maybe some of those
major tent poles of why the pro life establishment or
at least some therein are opposing these things.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, So before Roe's A returned, it was Row itself
was often the excuse. So folks would be ablacious introducing
bill saying let's just ignore Row's let's practice prosts and
resistance theory like our forefathers did and just say we
don't have to obey an unjust law or court ruling.
We can just we can just ban baby murder whether
or not nine people in DC tell us we can
or not. And so a lot of pro life groups
(29:57):
pro life groups are saying, no, we need to work
on overturning Row, then we can talk about ending abortion.
But then once that happened, you know, the arguments stayed
the same. They didn't actually talk about ending abortion. It
just talked about, you know, we need our Heartbery Bill again,
those sorts of things. So but in any case, that
excuse is Nolan void now, because so is Roe. But
the other one I hear besides second victim, is you know,
(30:17):
just political provactism saying, you know, the midterms of next year,
we can't advance this bill because you know, the Democrats
are going to weaponize it and they're going to create
create this massive scare on abortion. I've sat in front
of Pennsylvania legislators as they've said that in their offices,
and you know, because in PA we have like a
one seat majority something like that, and it changes here
and there. People resign or pass away. But it's a
(30:40):
razor thin the majority in the Pennsylvania House. So you'll
hear a lot of the longtime Republicans saying, we can't
do anything like that, but we can't do anything aggressive
on abortion because we could it can flip to the
Democrats next year. And part of you wants to say,
like that makes sense. But then when you do that
for fifty years, and you do it in states that
are deep red, like some of the states of my
book were Kentucky, Texas, Oklahoma, there is no chance that
(31:01):
the Democrats are going to, you know, flip the House
or the Senate one of those states. And yet that's
that excuse is still made, so it kind of shows
you it's not a very genuine excuse. And as Christians,
we would say, no matter we fear God over man,
we don't fear man. God alone has the authority to
destroy both both soul and body and hell, as Jesus
warns us, and lawmakers are of course His servants first
(31:23):
and foremost, even in a representative republic, so they have
to worry about what He says before even what their
people say. So there's there's really no excuses in the
day for keeping baby murder legal, especially to the scale
that it is in our country. For any of these reasons, Yeah,
I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
I'm sure you're raising a lot more than that in
the book, but I don't want to spoil the whole thing.
How about how about for the for the Christian Number one,
if somebody is not involved with this movement, I suspect,
I suspect a lot of your readers will probably be
those in my in my boots of having been involved
with pro life but from a distance, you know what
I mean, supporting these things and yet not intimately involved
(32:01):
with the workings of the mechanism. So so number one,
what what are you hoping they'll take away from this?
And maybe number two, what are some of the or
at least maybe even just one practical steps that somebody
can do. You know, they they're they're working a full
time job, and they have children they're raising at home
and all those sort of things, right, busy lives limited
exposure to it. But maybe number one, what are they
(32:22):
supposed to take away from this book? And then number two,
maybe what are some things that you would hope that
they would do as a result of it?
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Absolutely, so, the book is meant to arm people with
information receipts, so to speak, information about what is what
has actually happened across the country. So I think a
lot of people like you have maybe seen some of
these things from a distance, like three years ago when
Louisiana's bill was killed by the National Pro Life Establishment,
that sort of defense, you know, descending on them, and
in the ARLC was part of that with the SBC
(32:49):
in writing a letter saying we're going to you know,
blanketly oppose any bill that criminalizes women, quote unquote. So
there's people know about some of those examples, but I
wanted to give people just a whole, you know, fifty
thousand word, eight chapter package they can refer back to
and actually convince themselves that this is actually a problem.
It's not a one off event. It's a decades long,
multi states problem. So that's that's what the book accomplishes.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
And of course is this officially called like the meg
Bashum approach at this point you brought all the receipts
in public.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
I guess yeah, I sincerely do hope it does for
the pro life establishment what Megan Bashon's book did for
Big EVA. That's that's my goal with this, and that's
why I'm trying to promote as much as they possibly can.
So that's that's certainly there, and you'll see the example
of just bold believers who are stepping up in their
states and doing something about it. Just everyday people. You know,
there's pastors, but there's also you know, just moms and dads,
(33:39):
full time workers who have careers. It's it's not just
you know, the full time activists, it's just people are
who are trying to love God and neighbor. So you'll
see that throughout the book. The whole book is center
around interviews like that. But beyond that, I'd encourage folks
to reach out to their state level abolitionist groups. Most
most states have one at this point of just everyday people,
(34:00):
gridy Christians who are like abolish abortion Pennsylvania and our
estates who are just focused on passing ego protection bills
and our state talking to lawmakers, convincing them, mobilizing the church,
getting pastors involved, things of that nature. And if you
live in a state that still has abortion bills, I'd
encourage you to just go out one Saturday, find a
group of people in your area who go out and
just go with them and watch with your own two eyes.
(34:21):
As you know, mothers and fathers will fully take their
children to the slaughter. And then go back to Proverbs
twenty four and see how God commands us to do
something about it. And it doesn't look like you know,
it looks different for everybody. We all have different time, talent, treasure,
different giftings, you know, different obligations. Some of us are
our parents of little kids, some of us are older,
whatever the case may be. But find some way to
(34:42):
contribute to the cause of establishing justice for the fatherless
in our land. I think we all have that duty.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
That's a good word.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
So Ben's eisloft again. The book is The Forsakers of
the Fatherless, the Secret Treachery of the pro life Establishment.
It's available through Founders press Able for pre order. I'm
assuming it's all over Amazon and everywhere else one can
one can find books.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Where can Where can people follow you? Ben? You write
a lot? Where can people follow you? Are you? Are
you still doing the tweeting? Yes? I am, Yes, you can.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
You can find me on ex't at Ben's ice Loop.
Not as much tweeting as it used to be doing,
but trying to.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Good for the soul to moderate that.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah, yes, exactly, And you can check out Foundation to
Polish Abortion at f A dot life. We also have
a docu series for free called Abortion Free that's a
really good deep dive into, uh, some of the legislative
realities in our country right now with abortion perfect.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Ben always always a joyed to talk to you. Appreciate
you joining me, and you had a you had a
tough week residentially, so thank you for yeah manning up
and riding the storm and carving at the time.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Anyway, there's been it's been really fun.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. Had had a fire incident in our apartment.
It's all fine, no structural damage. You put it out,
but all our stuff spills like smoke. So we're in
a hotel for this week.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
It's kind of funny. I know we're at the end
of the episode.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
But my office, a lot of these books were imported
from an office that burnt down old church building, so
they moved him in. So every so often you can
catch this like faint, faint, faint whiff of It's hard
to get smoke out, as all I was trying to say.
But this is Ben looking forward to seeing the book
come out in hard print. Hope, God blesses the venture.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
YEP, thank you so much for sci it did.
Speaker 4 (36:17):
You red my ride and the Lord to my lord
command for all j that I will man fucking Linked
food store for your shame, gorge
Living Heritage dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Steadfastcigars dot com.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Welcome back to Eschatologymatters. I am your host, Josh Howard,
and I'm joined today by a repeat guest. But before
we get there, have you ever wondered how you could
possibly homeschool all your children at the same time. Have
you ever felt a tension between discipleship and the academic.
Have you ever longed for a beautiful, uncomplicated, but theologically
sound curriculum that will not bow to the spirit of
(00:49):
the age, Well, you can look no further than Living
Heritage Homeschool. Living Heritage offers a family style K through
twelve curriculum that's centered on beautiful, well written books that
spark the imagination and reach the heart. Your children will
be grounded in church, fathers, Puritans, apologetics, classic hymns, literature
and art, creation science, Biblical Greek, and more. Living Heritage
(01:12):
helps students go deeper through expert video and audio instruction,
and everything is built on daily homeschool family worship and
trustworthy Reformed theology to prepare your children to live for
Christ in the world, all in an open to go format.
Find the curriculum that you've been longing for. Visit living
heritage dot info, Living heritage dot info and get ten
(01:33):
percent off your first curriculum plan when you use the
promo code Eschatology.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
It's in all caps.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
I'm assuming it should be in all caps eschatology at
your checkout again, that's Eschatology. Use that at Living Living
heritage dot info for your order. Ben, thanks for waiting
on me here. I'm joined today by Ben Zeislav. Ben
is the second appearance, third appearance?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
How many times you've been on Eschatology? Second?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I think just the second.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Yeah, we got a remedy that we got to get
you on here. Now it's great talking to you and
catching up well a little bit you came on. I
guess that first episode then would have been a while
back now, hasn't it.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Yeah, I think almost two years ago. Yeah, it's been.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Okay, Yeah, it was an early run. But Ben, you're
a fellow Pennsylvanian. You've been a Pennsylvanian. I'm now your
fellow Pennsylvanian as of you know, nine months ago. But Ben,
if anybody's not familiar with you, little maybe update on
yourself where you're working some of those things we were
talking about, and little capture on that.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Absolutely I'm Benz Aisloft. I'm the communications director for the
Foundation to Abolish Abortion, So we write an advanced a
lot the ego protection legislation that you see across the country.
So right now we have to believe sixteen seventeen bills,
sixteen seventeen states somewhere in there active abolition legislation trying
to establish ego protection of laws for peop born children.
(02:48):
I also write it edit for the Sentinel of the
Western Journal a few other conservative news outlets, So that's
what I'm doing these days.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yes, fantastic.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
And you just wrote a book which is obviously while
we're talking today, and you wrote it through Founders, which
founders press Near and dear to our hearts. We love
those guys, Tom Askell and Randy and all the all
the others that are involved with that. But your book
was called for Sacres of the Fatherless, the secret treachery,
treachery of the pro life establishment, and you were kind
enough to send me a pre pub PDF, really engaging book.
(03:19):
I've got questions, but this comes out I believe August.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Is that correct what I saw? Yep, that's correct.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah, So I'll be able for preword now and then
should be shipping in early August.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yes, perfect, So pre orders are all up.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
I mean right now we're recording this late July, so yeah,
the book should be coming out soon. Tell me this,
because there's there's a lot here and and I think
I would fall into the category of one of those
guys that has been in ministry has felt passionately about
and I don't even want to say pro life for
all the reasons you're going to get into. I felt
passionately about protecting the lives of the not yet born,
(03:51):
the little preborn babies that are running around and in
those wombs, and we care about them, we pray for them,
we want to see as best we can them protected
by the law and even the culture and norms of
our country. And so when this when this sort of
abolitionist and it's not a new thing, but when you
saw the sort of a lot of the abolitionists maybe
(04:12):
becoming a little bit more pronounced, a little bit more
public with some of their declarations, I started digging into it.
And then I don't remember which documentary it was that
I started to see, but a lot of guys have
started to cover this with how these bills go through legislatively.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Some of the hiccups that happen.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
So again I'm running ahead a bit, but I think
I was one of the guys that was maybe maybe
not late to the game, but a little bit late
to the game and trying to play some catch up
on this. So just briefly and in general, what are
you guys up to, How does that look different with
your organization? How does that look a bit different than
the pro life movement? And then we're going to get
into some of the book things too and tease out
some of that.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
But how what are we talking about here?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Absolutely? Yeah, So abolition is distinctly Christian movement. That's probably
the biggest difference between abolition and maybe Madstream established and
pro life ism. So what you'll notice with abolitionist is
we try to go to the root of what God
says about civil justice, national repentance, some of these categories
actually matter for ending something like child sacrifice in the nation.
And what I contend, what I would contend now and
(05:08):
of course in the book too, is that a lot
of pro life groups are trying to do what seems
pragmatic and best in the moment. So maybe they regulate
certain aspects of abortion make it harder to access, instead
of you know, treating it like murderers, saying murder should
just be illegalists do that, they'll try to find ways to,
you know, make it more restrictive or harder to get to.
But I would contend that that's not in line with
(05:29):
God's justice, what he what he tells us to do
in his word, considering love for our neighbors. So that's
one of the main differences and divides in terms of
what we do at foundation to polish abortion. Our bills
are very simple. It just says, take the existing homicide assaults,
wrongful death laws that already exists to protect born people
and apply them to preborn people as well. So your state,
all fifty states, of course already have laws pertaining to
those crimes. And if we're saying that born and preborn
(05:51):
people are exactly the same in God's eyes, same in value,
you know, different of course in size, level developments some
one of those things, but they should be all preticted
by the same exact laws, because I for all, meaning
God's image, we should be protecting the same way and
true you the same way under the law or else
that's partiality and you get into some of those categories
in scripture that God says you shouldn't you know, of course,
discribe it between people show partiality versus, you know, choose
(06:14):
favors in terms of who gets protected by the law.
So that's what abolitionism is broadly in what foundation debolish
abortion is trying to do at the state level.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Okay, And so the fact that you've titled the book
the Secret Treachery of the pro life Establishment, I'm assuming
this runs counter to the broad swath of pro life movements.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Would that be fair?
Speaker 1 (06:32):
That's exactly right. So in a lot of states, the
opposition to that idea, that very very basic biblical idea
of equal protection constitutional idea, of course, the fourteenth Amendment
of the Constitution has been arising from mainstream establishment pro
life groups. So you would think that it's planned parenthood,
it's the pro abortion lobby that would be, you know,
antagonistic towards that idea, and of course they are, and
increasingly so as we grow. But really it's been the
(06:55):
pro life groups have been really hesitant to get on
board and finding reasons not to support that position, which
is that which is the shocking element of the book.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Yeah, So like, okay, so you're talking about equal protection
and correct me on any any given number of these
ben But so we we're talking about equal protection under
the law. What you're saying is to extend equal protection.
You know, somebody on this side of the womb, you
murder them, there's consequences, equal protection, they would extend it,
I would say, rightfully. So to that one that is
on the inside of the womb, we're saying, no, they
(07:23):
both need to be protected because they're both life creating
the image of God, all the reasons we protect somebody
anywhere else as well. So you're saying to extend that
equal protection, why would anybody? Well, first of all, how
novel is that concept? Is this something that like modern
abolitionists have cooked up? Is this something that like sprung
out of the theonomy of the seventies and eighties, Like
what exactly is that equal protection?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
And how novel is that? Within our country? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (07:47):
So, of course, the fourteenth Moendment came after the Civil
War reconstruction saying that we should, you know, looking at
black individuals who were previously enslaves, saying they need to
be treated equally under the lodge just because of the
color of their skin. You don't have to get to
discriminate against some sensive historical foundation of the fourteenth Amendment
in our nation. But really, the the rebirth of the
abolitionist movement started, and it's the first chapter of my
book for a Reason, with a guy named t. Russell
(08:08):
Hunter in Oklahoma who is studying for his PhD in
the history of science and looking at some of those
nineteenth century ideologies evolutionism, Darwinism, but also abolitionism, and he
starts reading these these guys like Frederick Douglass and William
Lloyd Garrison, and he sees, you know, these are Christians
trying to apply the Word of God to public evil,
and they sound very very different from how the pro
lifers of the modern day sounds. So they're they're going
(08:30):
back to the scriptures. They're explicitly Christian. They're quoting from
the prophets and the law and invoking those you know,
highest ideals when they're when they're arguing for their positions.
And you know, if you look at a lot of
pro life group state they argue mostly from a secular
basis from biology or philosophy, which is fine, but of course,
as Christians, we first and foremost are greatest authority is
God's explicit revelation in his word. So there are some,
(08:53):
I guess theonymous impulses, a lot of a lot of
theonomous are abolitionists for a reason is because it's trying
to apply God's word in our public life. So of
course you're going to attract a lot of theionomous and
people who are just interested in that and doing that
in general. But that was sort of the rebirth of
that movement was maybe about fifteen years ago, twenty ten,
twenty eleven with that, and it's explode across the country
(09:13):
because if you talk to any bile believing, serious Christian
about it, they're going to be Yeah, of course it
makes sense. Why wouldn't we treat abortion as murder? Just
treat everybody the same, no matter whether or not they're
born or preborn.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Yeah, And I want to get into that because that's
part of the argument that I find really compelling and
really really interesting the way it's reacted against.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
But what's your what is your sense on why why
this sort of thing changed?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
You know, you're describing like maybe a you sided like
fifteen year maybe a fifteen year retrieval period they're about
something like that, and these these things are starting to
come to the forefront. And I know, for example, I've
tracked with there's several of you that are that are
kind of working in tandem across various states, and so
I'm starting to pick up on these things trying to
move through state legislatures. It seems like a lot of
(09:55):
them are picking up a lot more steam than they
were in years past. Again, I already admitted I was
a little late to the game, right, but it does
look like there's kind of a forward momentum on this.
When did that change to begin with? What do you
have a sense for why modern pro life movements? Because
I'm an I'm an eighties baby. I have the clean
shaven face, but there's years of there's years of aging.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Behind this ben.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
But you know for eighties babies, you know, you grew
up in the eighties the nineties, you know, like pro
life that that was like part and parcel of being
a Christian in America at least where we grew up.
So so like, at what point was that was that
shifting away from something that would look toward equal protection
and and sort of taking on this morphology that you
described a minute ago.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah. Absolutely, And I also want to be clear, there
have been abolitionist ideas at proto abolitionist ideas for pretty
much the entirety of the pro life movement. People have recognized,
you know, the endgame is is treating people equally under
the law. So you have folks like Rusty Thomas who
wrote review to my book, who's a long time leader
in the pro life movements, rescue movements, those sorts of things,
who now who looked at abolish and said, yeah, of course,
(10:57):
this is this is how we should treat it biblically,
of course. So I don't I want to be clear,
it's not like it came out of the ether either.
There was a history to this. But in terms of
you know where this where this came from, I think
a big problem was, you know, several decades after Row,
very little headaway was gained with actually ending abortion. So
it kind of you know, brought it kind of called
(11:17):
the question in terms of how are we actually approaching
this is actually good to work? Is our strategy working?
You know, is doing things like partial birth abortion bands
and you know heartbeat laws. Are these actually effective in
reducing abortion numbers? And really more importantly actually getting us
to a point where you can truly end abortion, or
is it just this infinite regress of regulations you can
(11:38):
put on a very wicked, abominable practice, because keep in mind,
a lot of these a lot of these bills don't
actually tell you you can't you can't murder your baby.
It just gives you certain hoops to jump through before
you legally can. And there's some examples of that in
the book as well of you know, even some bills saying,
you know, here's the number of ways you're allowed to
murder baby, and then here's the ways you aren't. But
keep in mind, you can still murder the baby, you know,
(11:59):
in these certain ways you're allowed to. So really obviously
thinking people Christian people are going to look at that
and say, this doesn't sit right with me. You know,
the God I know is concerned about public justice. He
doesn't make these kind of You don't see anything like
that in the Old Testament and the prophets. Like I said,
it's just not something that came from the heart of God.
It's more the practice of man. I think people started
realizing that over time.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Yeah, I'm curious because the historical development is really interesting
to me. You know, it's good to you know, know
where these things come from and kind of think of
those things. But also just like boots on the ground,
I'm going to ask you, but I've got to lead
into it, but I was going to ask you about, like,
what are you seeing as the red flags that at
least many within the pro life you know establishment, because
(12:42):
you've brought up obviously many in the pro life movement
I think would be sympathetic to many of the things
you're saying. But the book is titled, you know, the
Secret Treachery of the Pro Life Establishment, which I'm assuming
that word establishment is doing a lot of work in
that title, carrying a lot of water. But if we're
looking at that sort of thing, I'm curious what the
red flags are that they are raised. And this is
this is this is something that popped into my head
(13:03):
when when when you sent the book over and I
was I was checking it out.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I was thinking of.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
And this isn't to try to bust anybody out, but
we we had partnered with a a sort of a
pro life group in a previous state. We worked with
them in ministry and they would do you know, fundraising
events and all of this, and for the for the
most part, their work was very good. They didn't do
everything the way I would have set it up, and
and everything was not perfect, but in general they were
doing good work in a needed environment. For that, we
(13:30):
for that we can be thankful. However, they had one
of their fundraising events and you're talking. You know, you've
been to these fundraisers, and you're trying to you know,
you're trying to not only get people to open their pocketbooks,
but you're trying to invest them in the mission of
the agency, right like you want them to care. And
I noticed over this event, which was probably you know,
four hour event or whatever the whatever it was, over
the entirety of the event, the life of the child
(13:53):
was not mentioned once, not one time. And so I
knew the people that ran this organization. We had some
long meetings after that, and they were describing a lot
of things that were good. You know, we care about
the mother and her health and her well being and
her flourishing.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
We care about fathers and fathers and homes like.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Everything they brought up was very good. But there was nothing,
as far as I could tell, of the central issue
for which I and many other pastors were there, which
was we care first and foremost about this child who
is actually facing death. We don't want that child to die. Know,
do we care about these other things, absolutely, like let's
talk about all those but like the reason we're here
is this child, and we didn't even mention that those children.
(14:29):
That seems odd. It seems like mission drift a bit.
So I'm curious. I wonder if that might play in
to my question. But what are the red flags that
any pro lifer would raise when when you were, somebody
else brings these bills of abolition to a state house.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yeah, that's exactly right. So the opposition we'll usually hear
is that we're targeting the mothers or or we're criminalizing women,
something like that. And you gotta keep in mind, these
bills just say equal protection of the laws. So anybody
who willfully murders a baby in the womb faces the
same penalties as if they had murdered baby outside the womb.
So and for you know, for a variety of reasons,
a lot of project groups have sunk into the mindset
and the woman is always the victim of the abortion
(15:06):
or second victim of abortion. Go hear sometimes and t
which we would say, of course, that happens sometimes. There
are certainly women who are victimized by abortion, pressured coerced
into it. I've seen that install of the ministry, you know,
women clearly not wanting to be there, being forced into there.
Once or twice, we called the police when that's happened,
But the vast majority are are you know, just watching
them with my own two eyes and just seeing movements
(15:28):
like shout your abortion arise in recent years. The vast
majority of women who have abortions are willfully trading the
life for their baby for something else, whether it's their career,
whether it's remaining in college, whether it's just avoiding the
inconvenience of being a mom, right because being a parent
is a lot of hard work, and especially being the
mother to a newborn. So that's why we call it
child sacrifice, by the ways, because we're switching out, you know,
(15:51):
what God has given, you know, a baby, for something
else that is deemed more valuable than that human life.
But the pro life groups have a lot of issues
with with that mindset of saying that women candy be
responsible for an abortion and should be held accountable under
the law if they are deemed by a court of
law to be responsible. So that's that's one of the
main reasons why we were told that our bills can't pass.
(16:13):
And and like you said, you know, the rhetoric has
so shifted, there's been so much mission drift that they've
almost forgotten about the baby. Once you see that, Josh,
you can't really unsee that. On social media and their videos,
it's always the mother and then the child, or even
just the mother. A lot of times the baby is
hardly even mentioned. And I think, you know, Christians ought
to recognize there's there's the true victim of abortion is
the baby who's getting his or her life taken. And
(16:35):
there are cases where, of course the mother may be
victimized and you know, pressure into it, in which case
we should also hold accountable anybody who's pressuring her into it.
And we can get into this later. But part of
the reason why you know, it's bad to exempt mothers
at all from criminal prosecution is because it's not actually
illegal to pressure somebody into doing something that's alreadyllegal for
them to do. So it's it's in the best interest
(16:55):
of everybody in mind just to say murdering anyone should
be illegal for everyone. That's like what we like to
said the Foundation to Polish abortion. Murdering anyone should simply
be illegal for everyone. If we're saying we're all equal
under God's eyes, we should have equal protection of the laws.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yeah, and it's it's interesting because it does pull out
your heartstrings a bit before I get into that. So
you you mentioned a minute ago that like your subjective experience,
and I don't mean that like pejoratively, I mean just
like you know, your your boots on the ground experience
and what you've seen, which by side point to my
side point, I think so many people might change their
mind if they did more boots on the ground ministry
(17:30):
and in the in the settings that you're talking about.
Maybe you can speak to that in a minute then,
but I sense that maybe maybe that might change some
minds on some of these issues. But even statistically, like statistics,
and I had I had it pulled up and I've
lost it before we jumped in on the interview, but
the vast majority, like you said, statistically, these are elective abortions.
(17:51):
So we can talk about, as you said, like those
who are pressured or maybe even you know, people always
bring up some sort of some sort of medical emergency
or some thing like that, which I don't think statistically
those even fall under abortion. Those usually fall under birth care.
And it's the unintended death of one of the two parties,
not an abortive situation. But still we're talking about statistical
(18:13):
outliers in those situations. The vast, vast, dominating majority is
just simply elective abortions. I don't want this thing to continue.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
That. Has that been your take?
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yeah, absolutely, it's been well establish at this point that
you know, rape and incests and the excuses that are
being made for all abortions. The other ninety eight percent
being legal are a very slim percentage of what's happening.
And of course, even in those cases, we wouldn't say
that it's right to take the baby's life because something
the father the mother did in terms of their conception.
So we even still with that, it's not godly, it's
(18:45):
not in accordance with this law to say that, you know,
there are a certain class of people because of the
way in which they came into the world, they should
be legally murdered.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Yea.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
And of course you know the reason those those fringe
cases are brought up is usually because you know, they're
trying to justify the either ninety eight percent. So if
you ask pro abortion people, you know, if I agree
with you on that two percent, would you agree with
me on the other ninety eight and say that should
be banned? And they'll always say no. I've asked that
to dozens of them at this point. They'll always say no.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
So yeah, it's it's it's it's a sheer, emotional sabotage play,
like like Joe Rigney says, it's not a sincere argument
at all. It's it's very disingenuous. It is trying to
get you know, the Christian who actually does care about
women who are victimized to to you know, negates the
rest of the babies who are being victimized because of
some friend situations.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Right yeah, And I think that is the and it
gets weaponized. You know, I appreciate you riffing off Joe
right there, because it does get weaponized, this this impulse
toward empathy that we have. But I think a lot
of people are convinced. Of course that doesn't that doesn't
negate what I just said about being weaponized by empathy
because a lot of people are convinced that, like, this
sounds like you really hate women, and in fact, like
(19:50):
a lot of the a lot of the rhetoric that's
been used is that you hate mothers, which it has
been I think aptly pointed out that that is very
ironic use of terms. But but I think a lot
of people when they react to this, it's like when
you talk about equal protection. Obviously, if you're talking about
equal protection, you're protecting them from somebody.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
So part of this.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Equal protection means protecting that child from anybody who would
do them harm unto death, including the mother, including the doctor,
or anybody else that might that might try to do
them harm. So when people hear that, they think, ah,
you want to penalize mothers. And you've already listed a
couple of these ben but like maybe just kind of
spitballing and walking through these, what are some of the
reasons that it's very compelling to actually move in that direction? Now, again,
(20:32):
I think you've stated your case pretty well. This is
a movement of actual care for that mother, isn't This
isn't looking to be mean to women in any regard.
But why is it important then to recognize her as
not just a victim. Why can't we just get away
with that? Why can't we just go along with that? Like,
what are some of the reasons that make this compelling?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Absolutely so, if you look at the situation on the
ground right now, the majority of abortions are not even
happening through surgical So we still think when you hear
the word abortion going to a planned parenthood, you know,
laying down the operating table and having a doctor rip
your baby out of your womb or vacuum or whatever.
The actual majority of abortions now in the United States
are through abortion pills and through other self induced or
self managed mechanisms of abortion. So you know, it's instead
(21:14):
of the clinic, it's you know, you go online and
you spend one hundred and two hundred dollars with buying
a couple of pills and they get sent to you
in the mail in a couple of days, and that
means the whole anybody anywhere. It could be the abortion clinic,
it could be you know, a woman in college her
dorm room, it could be just your bathroom, whatever the
case may be, and you murder your child in complete anonymity,
and nobody hears about it. Nobody knows except maybe you
(21:35):
or God, or maybe in some cases your boyfriend or
your husband. But that's the way that abortion is going.
It's not so much, you know, the physical abortion clinics.
And the reason that matters is because the people who
are most often ordering those pills are the women themselves.
So the women are being their own abortionists, right It's
it's a self managed, self induced abortion. Nobody else is
applying any kind of medical procedure tour. She's willfully ordering
(21:57):
these pills and taking them in all the rest so
they That's why you know, the egal protection argument is
so important right now, is because there's really no other
way to actually end that from happening. If there's a
whole class of people that is exempt from all criminal
penalty for willfully murdering their babies, and that class people
also happens to be the exact same class that's doing
it the most, that we have a real problem on
our hands. But also, you know, with these women, they
(22:20):
are of course image bearers of God, they're morally culpable
and responsible, but they're also they can also receive redemption
in Jesus Christ so if we say that all women
are categorically victims of abortion, that actually precludes them from
the gospel because in order to receive forgiveness, you have
to confess and repent of your sins, and you can't
see of course, the victim doesn't have to do that
because victim has something done to them, instead of the
(22:42):
victim doing something to sin against God. So when we
tell the entire culture of you know, one in four
women having murdered their babies through abortion at some point
in their life, that oh, you're just a victim, we're
precluding them from the grace of God in Christ. So
as Christians we care for souls. And you know, so
many people out there have you know, so you probably
looked at the end of the pressants and things like that,
(23:02):
and it's directly correlated to this. So many people have
unresolved guilt about the fact that they killed their baby
at some point in their life, and the only way
out of that is the gospel. You know, I know
so many women in the abolitionist movement who have done
exactly that. They've murdered one, two, three babies in their life,
and at some point God broke them and drew them
to himself in Christ. And you know now they're sharing
the message too, saying I was not a victim. If
(23:24):
it were illegal when I was having my abortion, I
wouldn't have done it. But now that I have done it,
I want people to know that there is forgiveness in
Christ and that this should just not be allowed at all.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Yeah, and that to me is one of the most
because I wanted to ask you towards the end of
the interview, you know, boots on the ground for Christians
are what are some of the things we can do?
But pastorally, you know, I served within within a pastoral role,
and that's that's where I think it hits home to me,
is that with any given sin, you know, the sins
that we want to tiptoe around, the ones that are
socially awkward or unacceptable. Every time June rolls around and
(23:57):
Pride Month is raging, although thankfully didn't seem to rage
as much this past year, so maybe that was maybe
that was a measure of God's common grace. But still,
you know, when when people say, you know, why do
you want to be so mean to those engaged in
home sexual lifestyles?
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Why do you want to be so judgy.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
It's like no, no, no, Like what I want them to
know the thing they're doing is actually sin against God.
It actually leads to their destruction here and the life
to come. And I want them to I want them
to find redemption. I want them to turn to Christ,
knowing that Christ is a sufficient savior. He can save
them from this sin and and can and will forgive
those who seek Him in faith, like I want them
to know that. And when you tell them, and and
and when I say them, I mean, now, anybody engaged
(24:31):
in any sin, if you if you assure them that
what they're doing is not in fact sin like you
just pointed out, you're robbing them of that gospel message.
I think pastorally, this is very important with the pro
life movement because I can think of very few settings
that propagate this as much as for example, like post
abortive care. Uh, you know, survivors groups or or ministry groups.
(24:53):
There's there's lots of groups that well meaning Christians and
well meaning churches will house and they will talk to
women as you mentioned, one in four or statistically many
of them within our churches, and they'll have these groups.
It's really important what you tell them about what they
went through. Because if you're doing this group under the
guise of the church and within a church house wall,
and you're telling them what you've done is not actually sin,
you're actually a second victim. You're actually robbing them of
(25:14):
that opportunity to repent. That's that's a very key pastoral
and I think churchwide concern that you're pointing out. Man,
I got so sidetracked that I forgot where I was going.
But look at this looking.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Back at it, right, Yeah, yeah, like a lot of
the secular psychology and things like that. You see that
a lot in a lot of the pro life movements language,
and I should I should have added earlier. So you
noted pro life establishment. So when I say prolf establishment,
I mean differently from you know, the average on the ground.
You know, pro life person Christian in our culture that
those are two very different things. But in any case,
you know, the psycho psychologicalization, however, you say that word
(25:51):
of post abortion care of just the whole issue of
abortion is is hugely problematic because you know, it loses
clarity in terms of you know, defying things of God
finds them, calling it murder, calling it sin, calling it
a crime, and that's a huge distraction from the justice
and the individual redemption that needs to take place.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, no, that's that's very helpful.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
So when you talk about establishment, you know, I thought
about making nineteen sixties joke.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I'm gonna hold back on that.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
But still when you look at establishment, like, what exactly
are you referring to, because I get the sense just
just outside looking in, a lot of these bills move forward,
they hit they hit you know, state house floors, they
hit courtroom floors, and advocates of equal protection will will
show up to the floor. And the people that show up,
as you pointed out, from the pro life movement, these
(26:39):
aren't at least from what I've seen, and maybe you
can correct me, I'm not seeing people from the community
that are super involved. I'm not seeing you know, moms
and pops, you know, banding to get it. When you
refer to establishment, that's who I've seen opposing these bills.
These are these are those who are paid by these
movements frequently they have they have vocational jobs within these
Is that is that kind of what you're keying in
on here with the establishment phrase there in your in
(27:01):
your title.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Exactly. Yeah, it's a it's a handful of decades old
national groups and in state groups two that tend to
pose these bills, and it's it's a sort of lobbies
who's been around for for forty years, you know, pushing
the exact same kind of incremental regulatory bills rather than
actually trying to end abortion. So that's that's the sort
of person you see. And throughout the book you'll kind
(27:22):
of notice that pattern is it's the longtime pro lifer
who's been pushing, you know, those sorts of like that
sort of legislation for their entire career. Of course, it's
pretty hard to go back at the end of your
career and say I was wrong this whole time. You know,
this actually hasn't helped. Abortion is higher, in my statement,
than before I started. So it's a lot of pride
and starkness. Unfortunately, a lot of people like to point
to money and say, well, they're just they're on the
(27:43):
payroll and that's why they're they're doing this. I think
it could be part of it. You can't really read
the individual heart, but I think a more compelling explanation
is it's the pride of having spent your entire life
doing something that hasn't worked, and it's really hard to admit,
you know, this has failed. I should at the end
of my life repent and and try to do things
in a more biblical way. But yes, to answer your question,
that's usually the kind of person who the longtime lobbyist,
(28:05):
who will who's already who's known the majority leader for
decades in a certain state, has known the speaker for
fifteen years or whatever the case may be, and they're
just mister pro life in that state, and they kind
of whatever they say goes in terms of what laws
get past that year.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
So I wonder, because before I get to the boots
on the ground question, I wonder if there's any other
red flags that we have not raised. I'm sure there's many, right,
I'm sure there's a lot, And like you just mentioned,
there's a lot of motivations that come from behind this,
which is not always the almighty dollars, sometimes just our
own pride and our own investment in something. But I'm
wondering what you're seeing as red flags, you having not
(28:40):
only worked in this but also now written on it
and many other things. Because when I think of the
red flags, I'm still thinking back on that the empathetic flag,
and it's so strange. You know, we have laws against
you know, heroin or hard drug use. I've never heard
anybody say that it's unloving to have penalties associated with
those even for those who are engaged in it. Now
(29:01):
that you might approach you might approach those things differently.
You might not enforce them, and I don't think judges
do enforce them the same for the person who's hooked
on a hard drug as opposed to the person who's
selling it to them. You have rehab facilities, like, there's
lots of care associated with those things. But I don't
think I've ever heard anybody make the case that that's
being unloving to the person to have a law prohibiting
the thing which will actually harm them in others. So
(29:23):
my mind is still kind of stuck there. But any
other red flags that you're seeing, maybe some of those
major tent poles of why the pro life establishment or
at least some therein are opposing these things.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, So before Roe's A returned, it was Row itself
was often the excuse. So folks would be ablacious introducing
bill saying let's just ignore Row's let's practice prosts and
resistance theory like our forefathers did and just say we
don't have to obey an unjust law or court ruling.
We can just we can just ban baby murder whether
or not nine people in DC tell us we can
or not. And so a lot of pro life groups
(29:57):
pro life groups are saying, no, we need to work
on overturning Row, then we can talk about ending abortion.
But then once that happened, you know, the arguments stayed
the same. They didn't actually talk about ending abortion. It
just talked about, you know, we need our Heartbery Bill again,
those sorts of things. So but in any case, that
excuse is Nolan void now, because so is Roe. But
the other one I hear besides second victim, is you know,
(30:17):
just political provactism saying, you know, the midterms of next year,
we can't advance this bill because you know, the Democrats
are going to weaponize it and they're going to create
create this massive scare on abortion. I've sat in front
of Pennsylvania legislators as they've said that in their offices,
and you know, because in PA we have like a
one seat majority something like that, and it changes here
and there. People resign or pass away. But it's a
(30:40):
razor thin the majority in the Pennsylvania House. So you'll
hear a lot of the longtime Republicans saying, we can't
do anything like that, but we can't do anything aggressive
on abortion because we could it can flip to the
Democrats next year. And part of you wants to say,
like that makes sense. But then when you do that
for fifty years, and you do it in states that
are deep red, like some of the states of my
book were Kentucky, Texas, Oklahoma, there is no chance that
(31:01):
the Democrats are going to, you know, flip the House
or the Senate one of those states. And yet that's
that excuse is still made, so it kind of shows
you it's not a very genuine excuse. And as Christians,
we would say, no matter we fear God over man,
we don't fear man. God alone has the authority to
destroy both both soul and body and hell, as Jesus
warns us, and lawmakers are of course His servants first
(31:23):
and foremost, even in a representative republic, so they have
to worry about what He says before even what their
people say. So there's there's really no excuses in the
day for keeping baby murder legal, especially to the scale
that it is in our country. For any of these reasons, Yeah,
I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
I'm sure you're raising a lot more than that in
the book, but I don't want to spoil the whole thing.
How about how about for the for the Christian Number one,
if somebody is not involved with this movement, I suspect,
I suspect a lot of your readers will probably be
those in my in my boots of having been involved
with pro life but from a distance, you know what
I mean, supporting these things and yet not intimately involved
(32:01):
with the workings of the mechanism. So so number one,
what what are you hoping they'll take away from this?
And maybe number two, what are some of the or
at least maybe even just one practical steps that somebody
can do. You know, they they're they're working a full
time job, and they have children they're raising at home
and all those sort of things, right, busy lives limited
exposure to it. But maybe number one, what are they
(32:22):
supposed to take away from this book? And then number two,
maybe what are some things that you would hope that
they would do as a result of it?
Speaker 1 (32:28):
Absolutely, so, the book is meant to arm people with
information receipts, so to speak, information about what is what
has actually happened across the country. So I think a
lot of people like you have maybe seen some of
these things from a distance, like three years ago when
Louisiana's bill was killed by the National Pro Life Establishment,
that sort of defense, you know, descending on them, and
in the ARLC was part of that with the SBC
(32:49):
in writing a letter saying we're going to you know,
blanketly oppose any bill that criminalizes women, quote unquote. So
there's people know about some of those examples, but I
wanted to give people just a whole, you know, fifty
thousand word, eight chapter package they can refer back to
and actually convince themselves that this is actually a problem.
It's not a one off event. It's a decades long,
multi states problem. So that's that's what the book accomplishes.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
And of course is this officially called like the meg
Bashum approach at this point you brought all the receipts
in public.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
I guess yeah, I sincerely do hope it does for
the pro life establishment what Megan Bashon's book did for
Big EVA. That's that's my goal with this, and that's
why I'm trying to promote as much as they possibly can.
So that's that's certainly there, and you'll see the example
of just bold believers who are stepping up in their
states and doing something about it. Just everyday people. You know,
there's pastors, but there's also you know, just moms and dads,
(33:39):
full time workers who have careers. It's it's not just
you know, the full time activists, it's just people are
who are trying to love God and neighbor. So you'll
see that throughout the book. The whole book is center
around interviews like that. But beyond that, I'd encourage folks
to reach out to their state level abolitionist groups. Most
most states have one at this point of just everyday people,
(34:00):
gridy Christians who are like abolish abortion Pennsylvania and our
estates who are just focused on passing ego protection bills
and our state talking to lawmakers, convincing them, mobilizing the church,
getting pastors involved, things of that nature. And if you
live in a state that still has abortion bills, I'd
encourage you to just go out one Saturday, find a
group of people in your area who go out and
just go with them and watch with your own two eyes.
(34:21):
As you know, mothers and fathers will fully take their
children to the slaughter. And then go back to Proverbs
twenty four and see how God commands us to do
something about it. And it doesn't look like you know,
it looks different for everybody. We all have different time, talent, treasure,
different giftings, you know, different obligations. Some of us are
our parents of little kids, some of us are older,
whatever the case may be. But find some way to
(34:42):
contribute to the cause of establishing justice for the fatherless
in our land. I think we all have that duty.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
That's a good word.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
So Ben's eisloft again. The book is The Forsakers of
the Fatherless, the Secret Treachery of the pro life Establishment.
It's available through Founders press Able for pre order. I'm
assuming it's all over Amazon and everywhere else one can
one can find books.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Where can Where can people follow you? Ben? You write
a lot? Where can people follow you? Are you? Are
you still doing the tweeting? Yes? I am, Yes, you can.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
You can find me on ex't at Ben's ice Loop.
Not as much tweeting as it used to be doing,
but trying to.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Good for the soul to moderate that.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah, yes, exactly, And you can check out Foundation to
Polish Abortion at f A dot life. We also have
a docu series for free called Abortion Free that's a
really good deep dive into, uh, some of the legislative
realities in our country right now with abortion perfect.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Ben always always a joyed to talk to you. Appreciate
you joining me, and you had a you had a
tough week residentially, so thank you for yeah manning up
and riding the storm and carving at the time.
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Anyway, there's been it's been really fun.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. Had had a fire incident in our apartment.
It's all fine, no structural damage. You put it out,
but all our stuff spills like smoke. So we're in
a hotel for this week.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
It's kind of funny. I know we're at the end
of the episode.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
But my office, a lot of these books were imported
from an office that burnt down old church building, so
they moved him in. So every so often you can
catch this like faint, faint, faint whiff of It's hard
to get smoke out, as all I was trying to say.
But this is Ben looking forward to seeing the book
come out in hard print. Hope, God blesses the venture.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
YEP, thank you so much for sci it did.
Speaker 4 (36:17):
You red my ride and the Lord to my lord
command for all j that I will man fucking Linked
food store for your shame, gorge
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!