November 12, 2021 • 39 mins
Literature and art has always had a special relationship in Poland. During the 1960s and 70s, this was no exception. In this episode, we hear from Andrzej Zaręba - a Kraków-based artist and illustrator for New Eastern Europe. Andrzej talks about his childhood in Kraków and the role of art in literature, including the artists like Daniel Mróz - the special illustrator for Stanisław Lem's science fiction. Andrzej also describes the unique bond between drawing and fantastical fiction writing.
See more illustrations by Andrzej Zaręba: https://neweasterneurope.eu/2021/01/20/andrzej-zareba-political-cartoonss-2/
Host: Adam Reichardt
See more illustrations by Andrzej Zaręba: https://neweasterneurope.eu/2021/01/20/andrzej-zareba-political-cartoonss-2/
Host: Adam Reichardt
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Welcome to a special podcast series titleExploring Polar science Fiction and Fantasy, Prepared
and produced by Talk Eastern Europe.This limited podcast series is being conducted in
conjunction with the Year of Stani sUAVLem twenty twenty one, a special commemoration
being held in Poland. Throughout thisseries, we will discover, together with
(00:24):
experts and writers, the impact thatStani sUAV Lem has had in Poland and
abroad. We will learn more aboutLem's story, his philosophy, and some
controversies. Along the way. Wewill also look at contemporary literature and bring
to light some new Polish authors followingin Lem's footsteps. We invite you to
join us on this journey exploring polarscience fiction and fantasy. In this episode,
(01:07):
I sat down with Amber an artist, an illustrated from New Eastern Europe
and a crack of native I guessAnge to give us his insights into how
he first encountered Stennis of Lamb andhow he understood them growing up. I
remember her first recollection Society as Iremember Lamb was by my friend Bogush Vengean,
(01:30):
who was my class might in theprimary school. He was a sort
of class genius. The first fouryears and we spent as a proprietory part
for the next level of education,which meant that we had on one teacher.
(01:57):
She was also quite clever, likethe mathematician, and she taught us
to write and to count and tothink as well. So we just learned
reading under her scrupulous eye. AndBogush was one of the guys who already
(02:20):
could read. We just had toput some effort. He could read.
He was brought up in family withouta father, had a younger brother than
I learned later. It was quiteof a complex personality, quite say,
a difficult child in a class,but it was he could read himself very
(02:45):
early. And his first books werewritten by Lamb. So this was my
introductory part by him, which isboth of us were quite a lot outsiders.
I never felt like a football playeror anything that required more than three
(03:12):
or four persons, so I justavoided the activities like that. As you
can say, yeah, outsiders alwaysjust can find each other cite easily,
even if the class was thirty fiveor remember there were mass classes because to
us a time of a demographic demographicalboom, and we were just overcrowded a
(03:38):
little bit. So his first recommendationswere to read Lamb to get interested in
it. I happened to have oneadvantage over the rest because I was not
genius, but I could but Icould draw and paint. The drawings and
(04:00):
paintings were integral parts of Lamb's books. He had a brilliant graphic designer.
And know, if it's a properword, artist, it's the world.
But it was not like as wecan now think of. The artists are
(04:24):
usually hired by publishers, and theyhired for many tasks. His artist was
quite attached to him in mid seventies. You couldn't say if it was nobody
was shut if it wasn't Lamb's drawings. They were so conversion merged together to
(04:48):
be one. Daniel Ruth was acrack Of based artist and illustrator of the
science fiction books of Stanni Swav Lambend of the unique absurd writings of swavel
Mere Jack. Between nineteen fifty oneand nineteen seventy eight, he was the
illustrator for the weekly Czech roy magazine, where he met Stanny Suave Lamb,
who was also writing for the magazineat the time, but was illustrated for
(05:11):
Lamb's Polish works such as Siberianda orThe Fables for Robots. He also made
illustrations for Polish versions of Franz Kafkaand Jules Verne. Daniel Murdus also made
drawings for Suavomimas, also very importantfigure Polish literature, both of them Lamb
and Muck. From my perspective,I'm not scientific literature and sci fi fan.
(05:43):
I'm more into the sense of humor. But so each is survivability in
in in times like seventies and undercommunist REGI survivability depends in a person's like
which are more inclined to intellectual jobs, the crucialist sense of humor. You
(06:06):
have just to be able to survive, you have to have a distance just
so. That's why the when whenI look at those times, so many
examples of ironic works, of ironicpictures, of this sort of playing with
(06:30):
the reality. And to me,I feel a very strong connection between Mrojak
and and Learn. I think theyboth were colleagues, of course, because
both writers at the same time andvery intelligent hand. Corrus was also another
factor and Rus as well. Brucewas born in CRRC. Actually he came
(06:53):
from a family of journalists. Hisfather was an editor in the popular as
issue called I kc Illustravana Courier suchan encrowded there's a relic of the building
in near the portag who was ahead editor and was killed by Germans.
(07:15):
I was one of the first victimsof Auschwitz Center, for he was of
course very well known by the Gestapo. And I invaded Poland. The first
steps were to get rid of ofElite, who was one of one of
(07:38):
well established figures in Crocker world.His son Daniel was talented, talented guy.
He first could study in some sortof of a school devoted to graphic
jobs run by Germans. Also,I think, as far as I remembered,
(08:03):
it was also Yasenovoshielski, one ofthe most famous figures in Polish painting,
was also attended Score and the pupilVosski probably graduated. Muruz did not.
When the war entered, Murus enteredthe Academy of Fine Arts, finish
(08:24):
it with distinction and started to workfor for newly established weekly called Treky.
This was also very important title inthese cosmas of Polish intelligence here which survived
the war, and Lamb was punishing. Yes, yes, so you know
(08:46):
this is all the combination, thatcombination of people, times and and and
where I kind of personally imagine Lambwithout Murules probably different, for if from
Western perspective, I don't know ifif his works were published with exclusively with
(09:11):
mus drunk, I think not.His publishers, for the for instance,
a way of illustrating science fiction bookswere entirely different in the Western Europe.
(09:39):
The Murules was ironic. Ruce wasmore intellectual. That were there were no
easy effects based on photography, oneffects based on the so called hyper realism.
There were no such things. Inhis arsenal. Who who was just
(10:01):
writing at the same time while makingdrawings and also was required some other perception
was more difficult than the newsually stuffin books written by science fiction authors.
(10:24):
And this is this is what whatwas for me distinctive difference. He was
obsessed with nineteenth century drawings or nineteenthcentury illustration. Years later, I happened
to work with his daughter in gazzetteof a boat. However I was I
(10:48):
was employed as an illustrator. Shealso worked He had on one trade Woodsiamles,
who also graduated in academy. Shewas my say, just metaphorically.
She was my older colleague from academyand so quite a couple of years older.
(11:11):
Academy didn't have this distinct differences asuniversity made between generations. You could
easily held good terms with someone whowas forty years older than you. Appreciated
what you work, and she workedfor that. We spoke, you know,
the time I smoked cigarettes. Sowe just went away for a short
(11:37):
break away in working. She wasvery good in computing, so this is
technical sto. Yeah, early earlytimes, nineties, so early early stuff
with PCs those days, you neededto be proficient and to like it.
(11:58):
I never I never myself gone wellwith computers. She told me about the
obsessions about her father, and thiswas this was nice. I could I
could just have a glimpse at thestory from the first hand. He was
(12:18):
a kink collector of the old press. He collected illustrated press of nineteenth century.
He made colleges, he cut thefigures, he just mixed them.
It is very close to work ofsurrealist artists and Max Ernst. For instance.
(12:41):
He also made his composition based onactual work by destroying destroying gazettes at
the Illustrate magazine but Murus went astep further. He started to create his
drawings this way. So there werejust there was some other galaxy of he
(13:07):
created quite a different way. Therewas those dice, those diced. In
Poland, the most distinctive voice camefrom so called avant garde who was just
out of the mainstream. But alsohe was so powerful nobody could deny that
(13:37):
he's a great figure. He justmade a lot of very important things closely
combined with literature. Angie believes thatthere's a tradition in Poland which goes back
to the nineteenth century and early twentiethcentury when there were Polish writers who were
at the same time artists. Inthis way culture was meshed. Famous authors
(14:01):
were illustrating their own writings, andhe mentioned Sipriy and Camil Norvid, a
great nineteenth century Polish poet and writerwho was also trained in classical art.
I would personally say that this wasalso something unique in Polish culture since say
half nineteenth century, when poet prophetsnot of it combined both skills who was
(14:28):
at the same time very clever artistmaking very sophisticated drawings and the avant girl
poet. And then we can findsome in in twenty century when the Poland
(14:48):
rose from Asius, let's say,when the Poland begin again a story of
independent state. It had the figureBruno Schultz of Jewish descent from Drohobbich.
Also you can you can distinct whichpart of him is better. He was
(15:13):
a genius illustrator and the genius author. Also surrealistic in a way, but
but but not its effective commercial wayof surrealism that the history of art,
which is good used with works ofMarguerite or Marguerite it's not a good figure,
but dally it's the best example ofcommercial, commercially developed surrealism, which
(15:41):
is easy to in perception is differentcolorful. Bruno Schultz mostly operated very simple
methods of of simple black and whitedrawing on paper. I personally can't imagine
because if you have if you areconfined to a very crump space, you
(16:06):
usually have to rely on ink anddrawing and drawing on paper because there's not
room enough. But you know,you can be very monumental with your work
even if you have only a smallpiece of paper and ink. To me,
it is quite obvious there is aline of in publish cultural history unique
(16:33):
to to to the outer world inthis way that this is not a country
where which can show generations of artists, for instance in Holland or Italy or
France. Um the artists who arefocused focused on the on the world work,
(17:00):
which is sculpture or or their onlymake sculptures or paintings or landscapes or
whatever. Here you have a mixtureand it is more literature in it than
than the plastic art. On theother hand, you cannot separate. It
(17:22):
is also equally powerful on both onboth ways they're making. This is what
makes it unique. I personally,I'm just very close to to to what
I think about about my own experiencewith art, and I also write I
also kind of imagine myself being withoutliterary narratives narrative story in it, because
(17:49):
it was when I studied it wasconceived as a mistake, which is just
for for one on another reason,just academy which is decided to cutselves away
from it. I don't know ifit was with good result. I'm not
(18:11):
sure as far as I know.The modern modern artists famous like painters like
Wilhelm Sassna, for instance, healso flirts with literature in full. So
you probably kind of cut from yourown destination, which is which is destination
(18:33):
of Krako tradition in art and writingand stuff of the culture which is insuperable
in a way. The city ofKrakoff plays a unique role in the cultural
history of Poland. This is confirmedby the fact that Krakoff is one of
the UNESCO Cities of literature and playsa role in shaping artistic life in Poland
(18:56):
today. I asked, and howwas it that Krakoff became the center of
intellectual life in the mid twentieth century. It happened probably by accident. Cracker
was one of a few places whichremained intact after the Secondary War, and
(19:17):
they are Cracker also inherited refugees fromeastern Poland from my families. An example,
part of my family came from Woodswhich is now in New cry and
also Lamb was an emigrant from Lembergviv Whatever in the nineteenth century, the
(19:41):
capital of Colicia under the Austrian regime. These people, by accident created unique
atmosphere and the checkery was erected.Chacre is no longer printed in Cracker,
although it remained they remained as Americaissue of I don't know of some sort
(20:08):
of find a word properly every describingthe situation of Trackery. Today it is
printed four times a year, soit's quarterly, and I have some a
bit pretentious with the past, butcompletely entirely different. It's more like like
(20:32):
a playing with something that you cansometimes hear the jazz combos playing jazz from
nineteen thirties, and they get fromfrom time to time they are famous.
That's the same happen to to Chekery. It's it's no longer a center of
(20:56):
gravity. This is just such inwarso also was just exported to export the
good word for the old divisions inour society. Craco and wars constant in
constant terms of hostilities. But anyway, Kraco in an last thirty years was
(21:22):
reduced to the in In this wayin cultural meaning, from my point of
view, is reduced to the secondarytown. And Poland in terms of importance
comparing to us also is the centerof gravity. Now everything is going on
(21:45):
there as far as as as theintellectual life is concerned, and just any
everything that going must go through us. So Craco is a relic of something
of some glorious past, of thosedyes where the Lamb just resided in in
(22:06):
his in his village village house nearfrom Cracker, was sort of a rabbi
who gave answers to the very difficultquestions. Who was ironic with that?
From one side he was he wasvery competent about modern techniques and the science.
(22:29):
On the other hand, he hejust was someone like like an ancient
prophet who is despised it at thetime, could pick up things that were
going going around with it. Nosuch town anymore. Everything is rather the
(22:49):
museum then than than the real thing. The muse and Lamb and Rosniqu were
not a museum museum items that theywere living, living people and I created
actually the culture which I cannot seenow. Well, some dispersed galaxy aout
(23:14):
some you can pick up some ofthe people who remained remained after these things
happened. Of course, it's muchbetter than it used to be. We
have money where we are in adifferent level as a civilization. But Crocker
as a as a creative place justjust lost. I asked Andree to discuss
(23:42):
for us some of his own influencesas an artist. He is a modern
day Cracovian artist who remembers some ofthe times of Lamb and Daniel Ruse from
his childhood. Can we say anyof those influences live on in him and
his work? The Mruse was definitelyinfluence mine Rose Mirage. My way of
(24:04):
surviving was being ironic, or tryto have this shield of irony, so
I sometimes cannot say if I'm seriousor not, which is good. Sometimes
sometimes I put me into troubles.Nobody understands you when when someone is thinking
(24:27):
that you might be joking all time. Okay, I'll try to be serious
now. Influence. I was influencedby quite unusual authors as far as my
artistic work is concerned. First ofall, I am a black and white
(24:49):
ink and pan drawing artist. Thefirst leak of practical practically problems. I
lived in a very small space.Luckily, as for my generation, it
wasn't that obvious. I had myown room in a flood where we lived
(25:12):
with my parents, but it wasquite small. It's eighty meters square meters.
I had a death and I hadto reduce my needs to the space
I had. I was happy withwhat I had because because for as a
(25:33):
good good stuff, I was acceptedwith my obsession of drawings and being an
artist in the engineer's family. Theyjust I don't know if if it made
them happy or unhappy, but theyaccepted it. So I spent time on
drawings and draw all the times,all the time. I'm good. I
(25:57):
didn't, as I told before,I didn't play football, so free time
for making drawings. On the otherhand, I wanted those those days in
primary school and everything just defines youin a way, whether I believe people
are defined. In this very earlyage, I wanted to be a zoologist.
(26:22):
Zoologist, yeah, zoologists, ornithologistsspecifically, and my parents brought me
a scientific book, a real scientificbook. It was the first book I
read consciously, two volumes of livingbirds in Birds of Poland. It was
(26:47):
also done by by a guy whowas on one hand who was a scientist
scientist on the other who was anartist himself. All his drawings of birds
were made with ink and span.It was my my first, my first
delight. I don't come from artisticfamily, so I had to pick things
(27:14):
myself rather than also visited visited museumwith my father with whilst no other um
it was the best best way ofspending your free time. No internet,
no such things like that, andso we just went to museum. And
also that there is a huge collectionof work of art. The Academy of
(27:37):
quacker Is was established in nineteenth century. Everything is rather if you are into
the sort of business that if youare not an avant garde and driven person,
then you can find yourself a placein in in the world. So
there was I found it, foundfind it. And but what it can
(28:02):
be strange as well, is thatalso my inspiration was Japanese art. I
remember I found it first in anencyclopedia I was bedridden for I was sick
for a flu or three weeks inbad I found it amusing. I also
(28:25):
was black and white, completely differentfrom one hand, very realistic, and
from the other the completely abstract.I fell in love with it. And
years after it happens to be ina proper place to have disinterest, because
you know, the biggest collection ofJapanese art just found the place in Krako,
(28:48):
the Manga Yaski. His museum waserected nineties by Andre Vader. But
everything, you know, it's sofunny that if you think think about it,
sometimes people say that there are noand then no accidents accidents. Yeah,
yeah, I just took this encyclopedia, found the Japanese art and then
(29:15):
click. Well, I didn't knowabout manga those days anything. And then
after I learned that Cracker was alsoa good place to study Japanese art.
That's that's how things were. Finally, imagination, How does imagination fit into
this story? Lamb's imagination was shapedby his own personal history and experiences.
(29:38):
I asked and to bridge together theseideas of art, culture and imagination.
Yeah, speaking about myself, Ididn't want to advertise myself. I'd rather
I'd rather wanted to show uniqueness oftimes we lived it because I happened to
(30:04):
be very young. These guys wespeak about were quite makes people and famous
artists. But I feel the sameabout the times we had together. We
bread the same and had the sameactions with the outer world. The world
(30:25):
was completely empty to me because Istill before I come part of my family
refugees from the East. The Lambalso was to me as sort of relics
as I perceive him now. Polishcivilization work out, let's say the civilization
(30:48):
of Poland. Cordups in nineteen thirtynine. After the war, there was
nothing much left of it. Asas we all know, the Jewish community
was raised from to ashes, burnedand killed, and only particles of elites
just remind the disaster and Cracker createdthe place like a hot house. The
(31:18):
hot house is a good word forit. It's also a title of a
book written by Brian Aldis, whichopened an exam to academy for me.
I made an illustration. I quiteloved this book. It's also as as
(31:41):
as other might have to add tothe story. All this routed and the
influence of his war experience in Burma. I didn't know before I before,
I just learned it recently. Itwas also his own experience was a survivor
Holocaust. His father was Jewish doctorof Parish and Identities, practically parish of
(32:12):
Jewish descent. He survived the war. His experience just vastly influencal he wrote
after, even though he just ironicallydenied it. Didn't want to be pathetic.
I think in a way, ina way that the Greek word pathos
(32:35):
I mean, I mean English patheticsa different meaning. Also for him,
that these pathos could he perceived itas pathetic, show you your wounds.
He never wanted to be a warhero. In fact, there was a
very slim margin he survived by accident. Is everything he wrote after was was
(33:04):
also influenced by by his experience.When I now read again and things he
wrote, this clash between machines andhumanity, is quite obvious that what was
the beginning of it a beginner's prophecy. Now as I can as I can
(33:29):
say he's perceived as a prophet inthe West, but usually it's it's only
limited to the space of Oh,yes, this this unusually unique guy just
perceived that we will be using internetin the future. It's it's not that
simple. To me. It probablywas was a side story this prophecy.
(33:55):
To me, the drama I findin his works, putting irony and humor
aside, is the clash between betweenworld of machines and and and human flesh.
This is what makes the rest possible. Is only imagination going like riding
(34:21):
the motor boat on the open spaceof ocean. It's it's like just or
being a sailor on this vast oceanof the future. But to him,
the first and to me when Iwhen I perceive his well and the first
experience was a holocaust, is notsomething mere limited to killing Jewish population.
(34:52):
It could be possible on the basisof science. It was basically a theory
racist theories, all based on nineteenthcentury science. Lamb happened to be almost
a doctor. He passed through allmedicine education, the doctor's education, but
(35:15):
he didn't pass the last exam,so he never practiced as doctor. He
confessed that he rather wanted to bea writer. Lucky. But all this
experience to me is on the otherhand, on my own obsession is the
times of the end of nineteenth centuryand the First World War history. I
(35:38):
feel it quite plainly. This isthe foundations of all the things like stepple
for kill, for a ship hall. Without it, you won't be able
to navigate the waters. He hadthis foundation observed observing the world that is
(36:01):
collapsing and arguments given by the sidewhich is more prepared for new times this
time the Germany technically the most developednation in the world those days, and
the rest is his imagination, asyou're saying, and you can you can
(36:23):
be more creative if you jump offthe true stories of history, which is
all the times you have this interconnectionwith the nation history, with identity and
stuff he just jumped over there.This is what I interpret my own interpretation
(36:47):
of his work and what is alsointeresting, when I was very young,
I can save Lamb as someone whois writer for young generation, for kids,
for for youngsters. And now Irevealed his philosophical deep wisdom or what
(37:12):
he wrote about just something that isvery pessimistic but gives a fresh into this
atmosphere we have now could reveal itagain just wow, this is something that
that that that gives you hope thatwhen in in in this world with changing
(37:37):
and and things happening which we don'tlike, all changes into the wrong,
wrong way, he gives a slightof hope in his pessimism. It is
another paradox of Thank you for listeningto this episode of Exploring Polish science fiction
(38:28):
and Fantasy. The podcast is prepared, research, recorded, and produced by
Adam Reihart and Mascha Mkulski of Tugistan, Europe. The series is supported by
a ground from the Polish Ministry ofCulture, National Heritage and Sport under the
Ground program Promotion of Polish Culture Road. You would like to learn more about
Newistenbrook podcasts, visit www. Newistand New Rope That EU
Welcome to a special podcast series titleExploring Polar science Fiction and Fantasy, Prepared
and produced by Talk Eastern Europe.This limited podcast series is being conducted in
conjunction with the Year of Stani sUAVLem twenty twenty one, a special commemoration
being held in Poland. Throughout thisseries, we will discover, together with
(00:24):
experts and writers, the impact thatStani sUAV Lem has had in Poland and
abroad. We will learn more aboutLem's story, his philosophy, and some
controversies. Along the way. Wewill also look at contemporary literature and bring
to light some new Polish authors followingin Lem's footsteps. We invite you to
join us on this journey exploring polarscience fiction and fantasy. In this episode,
(01:07):
I sat down with Amber an artist, an illustrated from New Eastern Europe
and a crack of native I guessAnge to give us his insights into how
he first encountered Stennis of Lamb andhow he understood them growing up. I
remember her first recollection Society as Iremember Lamb was by my friend Bogush Vengean,
(01:30):
who was my class might in theprimary school. He was a sort
of class genius. The first fouryears and we spent as a proprietory part
for the next level of education,which meant that we had on one teacher.
(01:57):
She was also quite clever, likethe mathematician, and she taught us
to write and to count and tothink as well. So we just learned
reading under her scrupulous eye. AndBogush was one of the guys who already
(02:20):
could read. We just had toput some effort. He could read.
He was brought up in family withouta father, had a younger brother than
I learned later. It was quiteof a complex personality, quite say,
a difficult child in a class,but it was he could read himself very
(02:45):
early. And his first books werewritten by Lamb. So this was my
introductory part by him, which isboth of us were quite a lot outsiders.
I never felt like a football playeror anything that required more than three
(03:12):
or four persons, so I justavoided the activities like that. As you
can say, yeah, outsiders alwaysjust can find each other cite easily,
even if the class was thirty fiveor remember there were mass classes because to
us a time of a demographic demographicalboom, and we were just overcrowded a
(03:38):
little bit. So his first recommendationswere to read Lamb to get interested in
it. I happened to have oneadvantage over the rest because I was not
genius, but I could but Icould draw and paint. The drawings and
(04:00):
paintings were integral parts of Lamb's books. He had a brilliant graphic designer.
And know, if it's a properword, artist, it's the world.
But it was not like as wecan now think of. The artists are
(04:24):
usually hired by publishers, and theyhired for many tasks. His artist was
quite attached to him in mid seventies. You couldn't say if it was nobody
was shut if it wasn't Lamb's drawings. They were so conversion merged together to
(04:48):
be one. Daniel Ruth was acrack Of based artist and illustrator of the
science fiction books of Stanni Swav Lambend of the unique absurd writings of swavel
Mere Jack. Between nineteen fifty oneand nineteen seventy eight, he was the
illustrator for the weekly Czech roy magazine, where he met Stanny Suave Lamb,
who was also writing for the magazineat the time, but was illustrated for
(05:11):
Lamb's Polish works such as Siberianda orThe Fables for Robots. He also made
illustrations for Polish versions of Franz Kafkaand Jules Verne. Daniel Murdus also made
drawings for Suavomimas, also very importantfigure Polish literature, both of them Lamb
and Muck. From my perspective,I'm not scientific literature and sci fi fan.
(05:43):
I'm more into the sense of humor. But so each is survivability in
in in times like seventies and undercommunist REGI survivability depends in a person's like
which are more inclined to intellectual jobs, the crucialist sense of humor. You
(06:06):
have just to be able to survive, you have to have a distance just
so. That's why the when whenI look at those times, so many
examples of ironic works, of ironicpictures, of this sort of playing with
(06:30):
the reality. And to me,I feel a very strong connection between Mrojak
and and Learn. I think theyboth were colleagues, of course, because
both writers at the same time andvery intelligent hand. Corrus was also another
factor and Rus as well. Brucewas born in CRRC. Actually he came
(06:53):
from a family of journalists. Hisfather was an editor in the popular as
issue called I kc Illustravana Courier suchan encrowded there's a relic of the building
in near the portag who was ahead editor and was killed by Germans.
(07:15):
I was one of the first victimsof Auschwitz Center, for he was of
course very well known by the Gestapo. And I invaded Poland. The first
steps were to get rid of ofElite, who was one of one of
(07:38):
well established figures in Crocker world.His son Daniel was talented, talented guy.
He first could study in some sortof of a school devoted to graphic
jobs run by Germans. Also,I think, as far as I remembered,
(08:03):
it was also Yasenovoshielski, one ofthe most famous figures in Polish painting,
was also attended Score and the pupilVosski probably graduated. Muruz did not.
When the war entered, Murus enteredthe Academy of Fine Arts, finish
(08:24):
it with distinction and started to workfor for newly established weekly called Treky.
This was also very important title inthese cosmas of Polish intelligence here which survived
the war, and Lamb was punishing. Yes, yes, so you know
(08:46):
this is all the combination, thatcombination of people, times and and and
where I kind of personally imagine Lambwithout Murules probably different, for if from
Western perspective, I don't know ifif his works were published with exclusively with
(09:11):
mus drunk, I think not.His publishers, for the for instance,
a way of illustrating science fiction bookswere entirely different in the Western Europe.
(09:39):
The Murules was ironic. Ruce wasmore intellectual. That were there were no
easy effects based on photography, oneffects based on the so called hyper realism.
There were no such things. Inhis arsenal. Who who was just
(10:01):
writing at the same time while makingdrawings and also was required some other perception
was more difficult than the newsually stuffin books written by science fiction authors.
(10:24):
And this is this is what whatwas for me distinctive difference. He was
obsessed with nineteenth century drawings or nineteenthcentury illustration. Years later, I happened
to work with his daughter in gazzetteof a boat. However I was I
(10:48):
was employed as an illustrator. Shealso worked He had on one trade Woodsiamles,
who also graduated in academy. Shewas my say, just metaphorically.
She was my older colleague from academyand so quite a couple of years older.
(11:11):
Academy didn't have this distinct differences asuniversity made between generations. You could
easily held good terms with someone whowas forty years older than you. Appreciated
what you work, and she workedfor that. We spoke, you know,
the time I smoked cigarettes. Sowe just went away for a short
(11:37):
break away in working. She wasvery good in computing, so this is
technical sto. Yeah, early earlytimes, nineties, so early early stuff
with PCs those days, you neededto be proficient and to like it.
(11:58):
I never I never myself gone wellwith computers. She told me about the
obsessions about her father, and thiswas this was nice. I could I
could just have a glimpse at thestory from the first hand. He was
(12:18):
a kink collector of the old press. He collected illustrated press of nineteenth century.
He made colleges, he cut thefigures, he just mixed them.
It is very close to work ofsurrealist artists and Max Ernst. For instance.
(12:41):
He also made his composition based onactual work by destroying destroying gazettes at
the Illustrate magazine but Murus went astep further. He started to create his
drawings this way. So there werejust there was some other galaxy of he
(13:07):
created quite a different way. Therewas those dice, those diced. In
Poland, the most distinctive voice camefrom so called avant garde who was just
out of the mainstream. But alsohe was so powerful nobody could deny that
(13:37):
he's a great figure. He justmade a lot of very important things closely
combined with literature. Angie believes thatthere's a tradition in Poland which goes back
to the nineteenth century and early twentiethcentury when there were Polish writers who were
at the same time artists. Inthis way culture was meshed. Famous authors
(14:01):
were illustrating their own writings, andhe mentioned Sipriy and Camil Norvid, a
great nineteenth century Polish poet and writerwho was also trained in classical art.
I would personally say that this wasalso something unique in Polish culture since say
half nineteenth century, when poet prophetsnot of it combined both skills who was
(14:28):
at the same time very clever artistmaking very sophisticated drawings and the avant girl
poet. And then we can findsome in in twenty century when the Poland
(14:48):
rose from Asius, let's say,when the Poland begin again a story of
independent state. It had the figureBruno Schultz of Jewish descent from Drohobbich.
Also you can you can distinct whichpart of him is better. He was
(15:13):
a genius illustrator and the genius author. Also surrealistic in a way, but
but but not its effective commercial wayof surrealism that the history of art,
which is good used with works ofMarguerite or Marguerite it's not a good figure,
but dally it's the best example ofcommercial, commercially developed surrealism, which
(15:41):
is easy to in perception is differentcolorful. Bruno Schultz mostly operated very simple
methods of of simple black and whitedrawing on paper. I personally can't imagine
because if you have if you areconfined to a very crump space, you
(16:06):
usually have to rely on ink anddrawing and drawing on paper because there's not
room enough. But you know,you can be very monumental with your work
even if you have only a smallpiece of paper and ink. To me,
it is quite obvious there is aline of in publish cultural history unique
(16:33):
to to to the outer world inthis way that this is not a country
where which can show generations of artists, for instance in Holland or Italy or
France. Um the artists who arefocused focused on the on the world work,
(17:00):
which is sculpture or or their onlymake sculptures or paintings or landscapes or
whatever. Here you have a mixtureand it is more literature in it than
than the plastic art. On theother hand, you cannot separate. It
(17:22):
is also equally powerful on both onboth ways they're making. This is what
makes it unique. I personally,I'm just very close to to to what
I think about about my own experiencewith art, and I also write I
also kind of imagine myself being withoutliterary narratives narrative story in it, because
(17:49):
it was when I studied it wasconceived as a mistake, which is just
for for one on another reason,just academy which is decided to cutselves away
from it. I don't know ifit was with good result. I'm not
(18:11):
sure as far as I know.The modern modern artists famous like painters like
Wilhelm Sassna, for instance, healso flirts with literature in full. So
you probably kind of cut from yourown destination, which is which is destination
(18:33):
of Krako tradition in art and writingand stuff of the culture which is insuperable
in a way. The city ofKrakoff plays a unique role in the cultural
history of Poland. This is confirmedby the fact that Krakoff is one of
the UNESCO Cities of literature and playsa role in shaping artistic life in Poland
(18:56):
today. I asked, and howwas it that Krakoff became the center of
intellectual life in the mid twentieth century. It happened probably by accident. Cracker
was one of a few places whichremained intact after the Secondary War, and
(19:17):
they are Cracker also inherited refugees fromeastern Poland from my families. An example,
part of my family came from Woodswhich is now in New cry and
also Lamb was an emigrant from Lembergviv Whatever in the nineteenth century, the
(19:41):
capital of Colicia under the Austrian regime. These people, by accident created unique
atmosphere and the checkery was erected.Chacre is no longer printed in Cracker,
although it remained they remained as Americaissue of I don't know of some sort
(20:08):
of find a word properly every describingthe situation of Trackery. Today it is
printed four times a year, soit's quarterly, and I have some a
bit pretentious with the past, butcompletely entirely different. It's more like like
(20:32):
a playing with something that you cansometimes hear the jazz combos playing jazz from
nineteen thirties, and they get fromfrom time to time they are famous.
That's the same happen to to Chekery. It's it's no longer a center of
(20:56):
gravity. This is just such inwarso also was just exported to export the
good word for the old divisions inour society. Craco and wars constant in
constant terms of hostilities. But anyway, Kraco in an last thirty years was
(21:22):
reduced to the in In this wayin cultural meaning, from my point of
view, is reduced to the secondarytown. And Poland in terms of importance
comparing to us also is the centerof gravity. Now everything is going on
(21:45):
there as far as as as theintellectual life is concerned, and just any
everything that going must go through us. So Craco is a relic of something
of some glorious past, of thosedyes where the Lamb just resided in in
(22:06):
his in his village village house nearfrom Cracker, was sort of a rabbi
who gave answers to the very difficultquestions. Who was ironic with that?
From one side he was he wasvery competent about modern techniques and the science.
(22:29):
On the other hand, he hejust was someone like like an ancient
prophet who is despised it at thetime, could pick up things that were
going going around with it. Nosuch town anymore. Everything is rather the
(22:49):
museum then than than the real thing. The muse and Lamb and Rosniqu were
not a museum museum items that theywere living, living people and I created
actually the culture which I cannot seenow. Well, some dispersed galaxy aout
(23:14):
some you can pick up some ofthe people who remained remained after these things
happened. Of course, it's muchbetter than it used to be. We
have money where we are in adifferent level as a civilization. But Crocker
as a as a creative place justjust lost. I asked Andree to discuss
(23:42):
for us some of his own influencesas an artist. He is a modern
day Cracovian artist who remembers some ofthe times of Lamb and Daniel Ruse from
his childhood. Can we say anyof those influences live on in him and
his work? The Mruse was definitelyinfluence mine Rose Mirage. My way of
(24:04):
surviving was being ironic, or tryto have this shield of irony, so
I sometimes cannot say if I'm seriousor not, which is good. Sometimes
sometimes I put me into troubles.Nobody understands you when when someone is thinking
(24:27):
that you might be joking all time. Okay, I'll try to be serious
now. Influence. I was influencedby quite unusual authors as far as my
artistic work is concerned. First ofall, I am a black and white
(24:49):
ink and pan drawing artist. Thefirst leak of practical practically problems. I
lived in a very small space.Luckily, as for my generation, it
wasn't that obvious. I had myown room in a flood where we lived
(25:12):
with my parents, but it wasquite small. It's eighty meters square meters.
I had a death and I hadto reduce my needs to the space
I had. I was happy withwhat I had because because for as a
(25:33):
good good stuff, I was acceptedwith my obsession of drawings and being an
artist in the engineer's family. Theyjust I don't know if if it made
them happy or unhappy, but theyaccepted it. So I spent time on
drawings and draw all the times,all the time. I'm good. I
(25:57):
didn't, as I told before,I didn't play football, so free time
for making drawings. On the otherhand, I wanted those those days in
primary school and everything just defines youin a way, whether I believe people
are defined. In this very earlyage, I wanted to be a zoologist.
(26:22):
Zoologist, yeah, zoologists, ornithologistsspecifically, and my parents brought me
a scientific book, a real scientificbook. It was the first book I
read consciously, two volumes of livingbirds in Birds of Poland. It was
(26:47):
also done by by a guy whowas on one hand who was a scientist
scientist on the other who was anartist himself. All his drawings of birds
were made with ink and span.It was my my first, my first
delight. I don't come from artisticfamily, so I had to pick things
(27:14):
myself rather than also visited visited museumwith my father with whilst no other um
it was the best best way ofspending your free time. No internet,
no such things like that, andso we just went to museum. And
also that there is a huge collectionof work of art. The Academy of
(27:37):
quacker Is was established in nineteenth century. Everything is rather if you are into
the sort of business that if youare not an avant garde and driven person,
then you can find yourself a placein in in the world. So
there was I found it, foundfind it. And but what it can
(28:02):
be strange as well, is thatalso my inspiration was Japanese art. I
remember I found it first in anencyclopedia I was bedridden for I was sick
for a flu or three weeks inbad I found it amusing. I also
(28:25):
was black and white, completely differentfrom one hand, very realistic, and
from the other the completely abstract.I fell in love with it. And
years after it happens to be ina proper place to have disinterest, because
you know, the biggest collection ofJapanese art just found the place in Krako,
(28:48):
the Manga Yaski. His museum waserected nineties by Andre Vader. But
everything, you know, it's sofunny that if you think think about it,
sometimes people say that there are noand then no accidents accidents. Yeah,
yeah, I just took this encyclopedia, found the Japanese art and then
(29:15):
click. Well, I didn't knowabout manga those days anything. And then
after I learned that Cracker was alsoa good place to study Japanese art.
That's that's how things were. Finally, imagination, How does imagination fit into
this story? Lamb's imagination was shapedby his own personal history and experiences.
(29:38):
I asked and to bridge together theseideas of art, culture and imagination.
Yeah, speaking about myself, Ididn't want to advertise myself. I'd rather
I'd rather wanted to show uniqueness oftimes we lived it because I happened to
(30:04):
be very young. These guys wespeak about were quite makes people and famous
artists. But I feel the sameabout the times we had together. We
bread the same and had the sameactions with the outer world. The world
(30:25):
was completely empty to me because Istill before I come part of my family
refugees from the East. The Lambalso was to me as sort of relics
as I perceive him now. Polishcivilization work out, let's say the civilization
(30:48):
of Poland. Cordups in nineteen thirtynine. After the war, there was
nothing much left of it. Asas we all know, the Jewish community
was raised from to ashes, burnedand killed, and only particles of elites
just remind the disaster and Cracker createdthe place like a hot house. The
(31:18):
hot house is a good word forit. It's also a title of a
book written by Brian Aldis, whichopened an exam to academy for me.
I made an illustration. I quiteloved this book. It's also as as
(31:41):
as other might have to add tothe story. All this routed and the
influence of his war experience in Burma. I didn't know before I before,
I just learned it recently. Itwas also his own experience was a survivor
Holocaust. His father was Jewish doctorof Parish and Identities, practically parish of
(32:12):
Jewish descent. He survived the war. His experience just vastly influencal he wrote
after, even though he just ironicallydenied it. Didn't want to be pathetic.
I think in a way, ina way that the Greek word pathos
(32:35):
I mean, I mean English patheticsa different meaning. Also for him,
that these pathos could he perceived itas pathetic, show you your wounds.
He never wanted to be a warhero. In fact, there was a
very slim margin he survived by accident. Is everything he wrote after was was
(33:04):
also influenced by by his experience.When I now read again and things he
wrote, this clash between machines andhumanity, is quite obvious that what was
the beginning of it a beginner's prophecy. Now as I can as I can
(33:29):
say he's perceived as a prophet inthe West, but usually it's it's only
limited to the space of Oh,yes, this this unusually unique guy just
perceived that we will be using internetin the future. It's it's not that
simple. To me. It probablywas was a side story this prophecy.
(33:55):
To me, the drama I findin his works, putting irony and humor
aside, is the clash between betweenworld of machines and and and human flesh.
This is what makes the rest possible. Is only imagination going like riding
(34:21):
the motor boat on the open spaceof ocean. It's it's like just or
being a sailor on this vast oceanof the future. But to him,
the first and to me when Iwhen I perceive his well and the first
experience was a holocaust, is notsomething mere limited to killing Jewish population.
(34:52):
It could be possible on the basisof science. It was basically a theory
racist theories, all based on nineteenthcentury science. Lamb happened to be almost
a doctor. He passed through allmedicine education, the doctor's education, but
(35:15):
he didn't pass the last exam,so he never practiced as doctor. He
confessed that he rather wanted to bea writer. Lucky. But all this
experience to me is on the otherhand, on my own obsession is the
times of the end of nineteenth centuryand the First World War history. I
(35:38):
feel it quite plainly. This isthe foundations of all the things like stepple
for kill, for a ship hall. Without it, you won't be able
to navigate the waters. He hadthis foundation observed observing the world that is
(36:01):
collapsing and arguments given by the sidewhich is more prepared for new times this
time the Germany technically the most developednation in the world those days, and
the rest is his imagination, asyou're saying, and you can you can
(36:23):
be more creative if you jump offthe true stories of history, which is
all the times you have this interconnectionwith the nation history, with identity and
stuff he just jumped over there.This is what I interpret my own interpretation
(36:47):
of his work and what is alsointeresting, when I was very young,
I can save Lamb as someone whois writer for young generation, for kids,
for for youngsters. And now Irevealed his philosophical deep wisdom or what
(37:12):
he wrote about just something that isvery pessimistic but gives a fresh into this
atmosphere we have now could reveal itagain just wow, this is something that
that that that gives you hope thatwhen in in in this world with changing
(37:37):
and and things happening which we don'tlike, all changes into the wrong,
wrong way, he gives a slightof hope in his pessimism. It is
another paradox of Thank you for listeningto this episode of Exploring Polish science fiction
(38:28):
and Fantasy. The podcast is prepared, research, recorded, and produced by
Adam Reihart and Mascha Mkulski of Tugistan, Europe. The series is supported by
a ground from the Polish Ministry ofCulture, National Heritage and Sport under the
Ground program Promotion of Polish Culture Road. You would like to learn more about
Newistenbrook podcasts, visit www. Newistand New Rope That EU
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.