Fatal Fortune: The Murder of Mike Williams Part 2

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hey everyone, and welcome back to Exposed Scandalous Files of
the Elite. I'm your host Jim Chapman, and I'm back
with the second episode in this brand new series I
call Fatal Fortune. Last week I brought you into the
case of Mike Williams, who went missing on December sixteenth

(00:29):
of the year two thousand and I left off some
sixteen years later after Mike went missing, when his former
wife Denise shows up at the sheriff's office this is
in Leon County, Florida, to report an attempted kidnapping by
her estranged husband. In Mike's best friend, Brian Winchester, also

(00:53):
played you the full police recording from that day, and
if you noticed, the last thirty minutes of that interview
became more of an interrogation of Denise over the sixteen
year disappearance of Mike, So that police interview ended, and
of course, due to her allegations, police went to speak

(01:15):
to and eventually arrested Mike Winchester for these charges of
kidnapping as well as domestic assault and armed robbery. So
they pick him up, and it's important to note that
he's charged at the time with kidnapping as I just
told you, but it's aggravated kidnapping, which in Florida carries

(01:37):
a sentence of twenty five years to life. So Brian
was up against it. At his bond hearing, things even
got worse for him as the judge denied any type
of bond and it was a little while later Brian
had some time to think about it. But a little
while later, after being incarcerated awaiting this trial, that Brian

(02:00):
went to the police through his attorney and he said
he had some information on the Mike Williams disappearance that
he would like to proffer. And for those of you
not familiar with what a profit agreement is, it's an
agreement saying that anything that you say to police you
cannot be held accountable for. In addition, as part of

(02:24):
his profer agreement, the state agreed not to seek a
life sentence in the kidnapping case that he was being
held for. They were still going to prosecute him, but
they weren't going to seek the life part of twenty
five to life. As a matter of fact, he would
get less than that. So all told twenty to twenty

(02:46):
five years for the kidnapping case. In total, immunity for
anything that he told them in the Mike Williams case,
and the state gave him everything he wanted, everything he
asked for. There So, armed with this complete immunity, Brian
told law enforcement that he murdered Mike and that Denise

(03:07):
helped him plan these murders. Now, how did he accomplish
that murder? What were the details of that? Don't worry,
I'm going to get into that. I'll circle back to it,
but for now, a couple of points I want to make. First,
y'all know, y'all know I hate plea agreements. I absolutely

(03:29):
hate proffer deals. I can't stand them. This is one
of the very few times I sort of get it
without these guys story of what the fuck happened to
Mike Williams. They knew that with every passing year, the
likelihood of that case being solved became less and less.

(03:52):
In this case, unless something completely unexpected happened, would never
be solved. Now, most importantly, as part of the profer agreement,
Brian had to lead investigators to the remains of Mike Williams,
which he did some seventeen years after he buried it.

(04:14):
This enabled Mike's mother at the very least to be
able to give her son she loved so much, a
proper burial. So police on May eighth of twenty eighteen,
they go to Florida State University where Denise worked, and
they arrest her and she's charged with first degree murder,

(04:37):
conspiracy to first degree murder, and accessory after the fact.
The three page indictment of Denise's case was released shortly after.
As a matter of fact, it was just a few
days and I'm going to read it for you quickly.
It's just really one page that I'm reading. Count one,
between March first of two thousand and December sixteenth of

(05:00):
two thousand, in the County of Leon in the state
of Florida, Denise Williams, also known as Denise Winchester, agreed, conspired, combined,
and confederated with another person, Brian Winchester, to unlawfully kill
a human being, Jerry Michael Williams, And the agreement conspiracy,
combined or confederate, was perpetrated from or was premeditated, design

(05:24):
or intent to affect the death of Jerry Michael Williams.
That was Count one. Then Count two goes through the
same kind of introduction with her name and everything, but
the diff teers. It says she was principal in the
unlawful killing of a human being, Jerry Michael Williams, perpetrated
by Brian Winchester in Jackson County, Florida, by shooting Jerry

(05:46):
Michael Williams with a firearm a dangerous weapon in the
killing was perpetrated from or without premeditated design. And then
the third count between August first of twenty fourteen and
December nineteenth of twin twenty seventeen, in the County of
Leon in the state of Florida, Denise Williams did unlawfully
maintain or assist the principal, Brian Winchester, by giving any

(06:10):
aid knowing that he had committed the crime murder first
degree that resulted in the death of Michael Williams, and
did so with the intent that the offender would avoid
or escape detection, arrest, trial, or punishment. So that was
her three counts. Now, if you're like me, you may
have wondered, if Brian confessed to being the one who

(06:33):
killed Mike, how can Denise be charged with first degree murder?
And the answer to that the simple explanation is in Florida.
If you commit any act that furthers the offense, you're
just as guilty. Think of it like this. If you
and I decide to rob a bank, and I drive

(06:54):
you to the bank, but I don't actually go into
the bank with the gun and help with the hold up.
But I drive you there, I'm just as guilty as
you are, and we're both going to be charged with
bank robbery. I don't actually have to go in there
and hold the bank up. It's the same thing here.
So Denise, at this point, she's facing a life sentence.

(07:16):
Now I'm going to back up just a little bit
because several key things happened between the time that Brian
Winchester was arrested in August of twenty sixteen and Denise
was arrested in May of twenty eighteen. For example, on
May fourth of twenty seventeen, Denise and Brian's divorce became final.

(07:37):
On December nineteenth of twenty seventeen, Brian Winchester was sentenced
to twenty years in prison for that aggravated kidnapping of Denise,
and the very next day, on December twentieth of twenty seventeen,
that's when he led police to the remains of Mike Williams.
And why did he do that? Why did he wait

(07:57):
that long? It was because he wanted to make of
his sentence first. Once they agreed to sentence him to
just twenty years in prison, he knew that they were
sticking up to their side of that proffer agreement, and
he did lead them to those remains. So with Denise arrested,
she gets held no bond in the trial starts. This

(08:21):
is in late September of twenty eighteen. And for me,
really three people during this week long trial, three people's
testimony stood out more than anyone else's. That's Mike Williams's mother, SHERRYL. Williams,
Kathy Winchester, who was Brian's wife she is now Kathy Thomas,

(08:43):
and of course Brian Winchester himself, whom you might say
was the States star witness. And so I'm going to
play you, miss Sheryl Williams testimony first. And y'all, this
sweet lady is maybe just what you would picture. She's
elderly at this point, and she could barely see above

(09:07):
that stand. Literally her neck and her head is all
you can see because she's a short little thing. But
she bravely testifies for about fifteen minutes. Here's that clip.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Good afternoon, Good afternoon.

Speaker 3 (09:23):
Can you please introduce yourself to the jursey.

Speaker 4 (09:27):
What's your name? Man? What's your name?

Speaker 5 (09:30):
Is?

Speaker 2 (09:30):
Cheryl Anne Williams?

Speaker 4 (09:33):
Miss Cheryl? How do you spell your first name?

Speaker 6 (09:35):
She?

Speaker 7 (09:36):
H E R like L and miss Cheryl?

Speaker 4 (09:42):
You are, in fact Mike Williams's mother, are you not? Yes,
as well as Nick Williams, sir. As well as Nick Williams.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (09:52):
Do you have any grandkids?

Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yes, sir?

Speaker 4 (09:58):
One of those grandkids am yes? And who is Ainslie
Mike's daughter, and that's from his marriage with Denise?

Speaker 5 (10:08):
Correct?

Speaker 8 (10:09):
Right now, Miss Cheryl? Is my understanding that you kind
of run a little bit of a daycare.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
You cannot really run a daycare, but you take care
of kids on a daily basis?

Speaker 4 (10:23):
That correct? Yes, it's kind of what you've done most
of your.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
Life for fifty.

Speaker 9 (10:29):
Years, take care of your kids kids, seam.

Speaker 10 (10:36):
Ok.

Speaker 4 (10:37):
What about neighborhood kids.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Neighbors yes, friends, friends kids yes?

Speaker 4 (10:45):
How many kids on that daily basis do you take
care of.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
In fifty years on a daily basis? Gad day?

Speaker 11 (11:00):
Based just anywhere from four to ten Okay, for fifty years.

Speaker 12 (11:05):
Huh, for fifty years seen a lot of kids grow up?

Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yes? Sure?

Speaker 4 (11:09):
Have you had a chance see Ainsley grew up?

Speaker 2 (11:12):
I did not get to keep Angeley on my home
day here.

Speaker 4 (11:16):
Haven't had a chance to watch her grow up?

Speaker 2 (11:18):
Have you sure?

Speaker 4 (11:19):
You have not had a chance to watch her grow up?

Speaker 5 (11:21):
Have you no? Sure?

Speaker 3 (11:32):
Talking about Mike Williams's death as we now know it
back in two thousand, it was a disappearance.

Speaker 4 (11:39):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (11:40):
The initial theory was that he was missing and possibly
eaten by alligators. Right, you never believed that.

Speaker 4 (11:47):
Did you?

Speaker 5 (11:47):
No?

Speaker 12 (11:48):
Sure?

Speaker 3 (11:51):
And in fact you took lots of steps to initiate
and investigations, did you not. Yes, put up posters yes,
rode the governor, Yes, put up billboards Yes.

Speaker 4 (12:04):
And in fact you were able to get an investigation launch.
Were you not?

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (12:10):
At some point.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
Did you have a confrontation with the niece about your
beliefs that might be still a lot?

Speaker 2 (12:21):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (12:23):
How many times?

Speaker 2 (12:26):
Twice?

Speaker 4 (12:27):
When was the first time?

Speaker 2 (12:29):
It was August of two thousand and one.

Speaker 4 (12:33):
So nine months after Mike was missing.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (12:38):
Where was this?

Speaker 2 (12:39):
It was in her front yard?

Speaker 5 (12:43):
What happened?

Speaker 11 (12:45):
I had been trying to get publicity for Mike's disappearance.
I had written the letters to the editor at the
Tallahassee Democrat begging them to do a story about mike disappearance. Finally,
a reporter, Tony Bridges from the Tallahassee Democrat, read my

(13:10):
letters to the editor and he was doing a story
about people who were missing locally in Tallahassee area. He
called me to ask me if he could include Mike
in those people, and I told him yes. Nick took
a picture to the Tallahassee Democrat and he did a story.

(13:35):
When the article came out in the newspaper, Denise called
me on the phone. She was livid. She said, you
and Nick need to come over here right now. We
went to her house in the front yard. We weren't
even invited inside. She was screaming at me. She was

(13:59):
mad about the article. And she said, screaming at me,
I don't ever want to hear Mike's name again. I
don't ever want to see Mike's picture in the paper again.
I don't ever want to know anything you're doing about
Mike again. I have to get on with my life.

(14:24):
And I asked her, I said, if that were Ansley
in the lake. You would just leave her there, and
she said, I would believe the authorities. I then she said,
if you persist in trying to get a criminal investigation,
you will lose Ann Sley.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Your granddaughter, my granddaughter, Mike's daughter, Mike's daughter.

Speaker 4 (14:51):
You said there's a second time.

Speaker 11 (14:53):
The second time was before you. Yes, there was a
second time.

Speaker 4 (14:59):
You seem to have a very good grasp of dates
and names.

Speaker 13 (15:02):
I do, okay, been a passion obviously for your sons. Yes,
lost time, Yes, taking a lot of steps right, Yes,
let's talk about the second time. Then where did the
second time happen?

Speaker 11 (15:16):
Any When it was January eighth, two thousand and five,
Nick and I were at the restaurant eating lunch. She
called Nick on his cell phone and she said, what
time is Sheryl going to be at home?

Speaker 2 (15:33):
Nick said two o'clock. She said, well, I'm coming over.
The next day was January ninth.

Speaker 11 (15:41):
I thought that she was going to bring the baby
to see me for my birthday.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
We had not seen her since Halloween in two thousand.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
And four when I stopped right there, So your birthday
is the very next day.

Speaker 2 (15:54):
It was the very next day, January ninth, and.

Speaker 4 (15:58):
If I understood it correctly. The last he saw Ainsley.

Speaker 11 (16:01):
Before then it was Halloween was Halloween of two thousand
and four.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
Okay, so it was October.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
So from October to January he hadn't seen her, right, Okay,
this is the day before your birthday.

Speaker 2 (16:11):
It was the day before my birthday, January eighth.

Speaker 4 (16:14):
Okay. What happened next?

Speaker 11 (16:17):
Nick and I got home and Denise came. She knocked
on the door. We opened the door and Brian was
with her.

Speaker 4 (16:29):
Brian mean Brian Winchester, Brian Winchester.

Speaker 11 (16:33):
And I asked her, I said, where's ann Sley? Because
I thought she was bringing ann Sley to see me,
and she said, ann Seley's taking a nap. Well, we
invited her inside and she sat down at the table
across from me. Nick was standing and Brian had.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
His back to the door.

Speaker 4 (16:56):
What did did he tell you?

Speaker 11 (16:58):
Denise said, Cheryl, you know that Annsley and I love you,
but Brian and I don't like the lies you're telling
about us. And I looked at her and I said, Denise,
what lies are you talking about? Brian screamed, you shut
your mouth and let her talk. Nick got upset and

(17:23):
said some not nice things to Brian. And then Denise
is crying and she says, Cheryl, if you will just
stop this investigation, you can see Annesley again.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
And I told her, I.

Speaker 11 (17:38):
Said, Denise, I can't stop this investigation.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
I wouldn't if I could.

Speaker 11 (17:46):
Nick said, Denise, Mike is Mama's son and my brother,
and we just want to know what you and Brian
did to him. Brian said, Denise, each let's go. We're
not getting anywhere, and they left.

Speaker 4 (18:04):
Did you ever see Ansley again?

Speaker 5 (18:06):
No?

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Not at my house?

Speaker 4 (18:23):
Sure, its great to see parks. They stid at them
at fifteen.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
Oak that Mike Fench Mike, which.

Speaker 4 (18:34):
They didn't feed that.

Speaker 14 (18:37):
Day.

Speaker 4 (18:38):
I'll be admitted, both very arm come out the fact
that's the photograph you used. Sure that's the photograph using
your billboards?

Speaker 2 (18:50):
Yes, yes, definitely.

Speaker 15 (18:56):
Well Chrus please, good afternoon, Miss Williams.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
Good afternoon, High End.

Speaker 12 (19:12):
Phil Potovano. You and I have not met. I'm just
going to.

Speaker 16 (19:15):
Ask you a few questions, and I'm certainly sorry that
it has to be under these circumstances, but I do
have a few questions.

Speaker 12 (19:21):
I want to ask you. The first time that you.

Speaker 16 (19:28):
That Denise confronted you was I think you said it
was in the summer of two thousand and one.

Speaker 12 (19:33):
Yes, and by then a circuit judge had declared Mike
did by that time, is that right?

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (19:45):
And by then the family had had a memorial service
for Mike.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Yes.

Speaker 16 (19:53):
And is it fair to assume that Denise would have
had to explain to Ansley, h would have to deal
with the fact that her dad wasn't home and try
to explain in the best way you could.

Speaker 12 (20:05):
To a child what had happened. Yes.

Speaker 16 (20:17):
And do you think it might have been difficult for
her to be seeing missing posters and billboards and things
such as that. You said she was trying to get
past it. Is that what she said? She felt like
she had to get past it.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
She should, she had to get on with her life.

Speaker 12 (20:39):
Okay.

Speaker 16 (20:40):
And you know, I hate this term closure because I
think in something like this there's never any closure.

Speaker 12 (20:45):
I mean, I don't even like to use the word.

Speaker 16 (20:48):
But do you know what that means when people say that, Yes,
and do you think that some people might have this
need then to get beyond a certain point and not
say I've I've grieved, I've I've grieved the loss of
my husband I've, you know, grieved the loss of my
child's father, but now I still have to entertain the

(21:10):
idea that maybe he's still alive.

Speaker 12 (21:13):
You do you accept that that might be difficult for
some people.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
In mind?

Speaker 12 (21:20):
Okay?

Speaker 16 (21:20):
And and I I know you have.

Speaker 12 (21:23):
A different view, and I respect that. Believe me, I do.
I wanted to ask you about the second occasion, which
was much later. I think, wasn't it right?

Speaker 16 (21:34):
And I think that I think that I heard you say,
and you correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not
sure how I heard this, but I thought I heard
you say that you and Nick said you just wanted
to find out what Brian and and Deneath did to Mike?

Speaker 12 (21:52):
Is that right now?

Speaker 16 (22:00):
If Denise is innocent and she thought that you were
accusing her of doing something to your son, do you
think it would be logical for her to be upset
with you.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
If she were innocent?

Speaker 16 (22:18):
Yes, So this was a reaction that she had that
would be consistent with a person who's innocent. Fine, did
you ever go to Cheryl's house on a centennial Oaks
after two thousand and one?

Speaker 2 (22:39):
Who go to whose house?

Speaker 16 (22:40):
I'm sorry I made him, I'm sorry I used your name.
I meant to say, Denise Williams. Did you ever go
to Denise's house in Centennial Oaks after two thousand and one?

Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (22:52):
And did you see the pictures of Mike in the house?

Speaker 17 (22:55):
No?

Speaker 18 (22:56):
You didn't.

Speaker 14 (22:57):
No.

Speaker 16 (22:58):
Okay, let me ask you a couple of questions now,
and these are going to get a little easier. I
told the jury on Tuesday that your son was a
good father, a good husband, and a good provider.

Speaker 12 (23:12):
Would you agree with that?

Speaker 14 (23:14):
Yes?

Speaker 16 (23:17):
How long had you what was what was his relationship
like with Denise during the time that they were together?

Speaker 2 (23:25):
I thought it was good.

Speaker 12 (23:28):
And you knew Denise for quite a while I mean long.

Speaker 16 (23:30):
They got married in nineteen ninety four, right, right, But
you knew her for quite a while before.

Speaker 14 (23:35):
The right right?

Speaker 12 (23:38):
And how did they How did they? I mean did
they get along?

Speaker 2 (23:42):
Yes?

Speaker 16 (23:44):
And what were your feelings towards Denise during that period
of time?

Speaker 2 (23:47):
I loved her?

Speaker 12 (23:49):
Thank you?

Speaker 4 (23:52):
Reread direct.

Speaker 3 (23:57):
Mi, Cheryl, Yes, number of twenty and seventeen. You were
told that Mike Williams had actually been murdered.

Speaker 4 (24:04):
His body was found, correct, ysh.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
You were told before everybody else was told briefly and
then hit the news correct. Sure you were told before
everybody else was and didn't hit the news correct right.

Speaker 4 (24:19):
How long did it take before Denise called you and
said I'm sorry that I.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
Was wrong All these years she never did.

Speaker 3 (24:25):
How long did it take before she called you and said, hey,
I'm sorry, maybe I need to help you see your
granddaughter again?

Speaker 2 (24:32):
She never did so.

Speaker 3 (24:34):
From the day that she threatened you to stop the
investigation the day before your birthday, you've never seen your granddaughter.

Speaker 2 (24:41):
No, no for good questions.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
So how fucking sick are these two? Some bitches? Your
son's missing, presumed dad nobody, and they not only braid
her and Mike's dad screaming in the front of their yard,
but they also threatened the only link to Mike she

(25:06):
had left, her granddaughter, Ainsley. It's just despicable and it's heartbreaking.
And lastly, on that testimony, how about the prosecutor bringing
up the point that, despite Brian Winchester confessing to killing Mike,
not one fucking phone call from Denise saying I'm sorry

(25:29):
I was wrong. I'm so glad that we figured out
who did this, but I feel like such an asshole
for marrying this guy. None of that I mean that
right there points to this is not the actions of
an innocent individual. Great job by the prosecutor pointing that out. Now, next,

(25:51):
I'm gonna bring you the testimony of Kathy Winchester, who
is now Kathy Thomas. She's remarried, and that's Brian Winchester's
ex wife. And remember these were bestie couples, right they
hung out together all the time year and find out
they did some other things together as well. But I'm

(26:11):
going to play you her testimony, which is very interesting
and it's about an hour and fifteen minutes in length.
So like I did last week, I'm just gonna play
it and I'll pick up with Brian Winchester's testimony next week.
But here's that much love.

Speaker 12 (26:34):
And can you please state and spell your name for
nightA in court Refort.

Speaker 19 (26:39):
Catherine K A T H E R I N E
Thomas T H O M A S Miss Thomas.

Speaker 12 (26:46):
Do you currently live in Tallahassee?

Speaker 20 (26:49):
No?

Speaker 12 (26:50):
Where do you live?

Speaker 20 (26:50):
I live in North Carolina?

Speaker 12 (26:53):
Okay? At some point did you live in Tallahassee?

Speaker 21 (26:56):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (26:57):
Did you grow up in Tallahassee?

Speaker 14 (26:58):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (27:00):
Do you know who Mike Williams is?

Speaker 20 (27:02):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (27:04):
How do you know Mike Williams.

Speaker 19 (27:07):
I know Mike Williams. We met in elementary school.

Speaker 12 (27:12):
Okay, what elementary school?

Speaker 20 (27:14):
North Florida Christian.

Speaker 12 (27:17):
So how long did you know Mike?

Speaker 19 (27:21):
I met him when we were in fifth grade, and
so I knew him from then and until.

Speaker 20 (27:31):
He passed away.

Speaker 12 (27:34):
Were you friends with Mike?

Speaker 20 (27:36):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (27:37):
Can you describe that friendship? Were you just friends? Did
you ever date anything like that?

Speaker 19 (27:43):
We were friends. We did date, like, went together. You
know when we dated, we couldn't drive, so but we
remained friends throughout, you know, our growing up.

Speaker 12 (28:02):
Were you friends after high school?

Speaker 5 (28:04):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (28:06):
Do you know who Denise Williams is?

Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (28:10):
When did you first meet Denise Williams? And what was
her name at that point?

Speaker 21 (28:15):
I met.

Speaker 19 (28:17):
Denise Merrill in ninth grade at North Florida Christian School.

Speaker 20 (28:22):
We went to high school together.

Speaker 12 (28:24):
Were you friends?

Speaker 20 (28:26):
We were friends.

Speaker 19 (28:29):
We weren't best friends in high school, but we were friends.
We cheer cheered together, and it was a small school,
so you know, everyone knew each other pretty well and
we were friends.

Speaker 12 (28:47):
Now. Did Mike and Denise date in high school?

Speaker 20 (28:50):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (28:52):
They did, and they eventually got married.

Speaker 4 (28:54):
Is that right?

Speaker 20 (28:55):
That's correct?

Speaker 12 (29:00):
Do you know who Brian Winchester is. Yes, who's Brian Winchester.

Speaker 20 (29:05):
Brian Winchester.

Speaker 19 (29:06):
I met him in ninth grade, also at North Florida, and.

Speaker 20 (29:12):
We started dating when I was.

Speaker 19 (29:16):
We were juniors, we were both juniors in high school,
and then we eventually got married.

Speaker 12 (29:22):
Also, when did you get married?

Speaker 19 (29:24):
We got married in nineteen ninety four, May of nineteen
ninety four.

Speaker 12 (29:30):
And we're Mike and den He's married around that same
time frame.

Speaker 20 (29:35):
Mm hmm, they were married in December.

Speaker 19 (29:38):
But but yes, within the same year.

Speaker 12 (29:42):
Okay, Now did y'all do things together?

Speaker 21 (29:47):
We did?

Speaker 12 (29:48):
That's couples, Yes, yes, Can you describe some of the
things that you did together as couples at that point?

Speaker 19 (29:56):
Well, we would do things like go out to eat,
We would.

Speaker 20 (30:03):
Go movies, you know, the normal just kind of like
you know, if something you know, a movie or dinner,
you know, just kind of like couple dates type stuff.

Speaker 12 (30:18):
We double dating with double.

Speaker 19 (30:20):
Dating, right, Yes, And we would do both. Brian and
Mike would hunt and fish, and so Denise and I
would tag along, you know, we would do those sorts
of things, go to the coast and you know, go
on a dove hunt or you know, just things like that.

(30:41):
We did a couple things like that together.

Speaker 12 (30:44):
Now you and Brian had a son together, is that right?

Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (30:48):
When was your son born?

Speaker 19 (30:49):
He was born in February of nineteen ninety nine.

Speaker 12 (30:55):
And Denise and Mike had a daughter. Correct, And Hansley
was born around the same time as your son.

Speaker 19 (31:06):
She was born in May of ninety nine.

Speaker 12 (31:19):
At some point your marriage to Brian Winchester started to
have some problems. Is that fair to sight?

Speaker 20 (31:25):
Yes, Yes, that's correct.

Speaker 12 (31:28):
You eventually separated.

Speaker 20 (31:30):
Correct?

Speaker 12 (31:31):
When did you separate?

Speaker 19 (31:33):
We separated September eleventh, nine to eleven, two thousand and one.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
Correct.

Speaker 12 (31:42):
Okay, And when did you finally finalize the divorce?

Speaker 19 (31:47):
The divorce was final in two thousand and four, April of.

Speaker 20 (31:57):
Two thousand, April of two thousand and three.

Speaker 12 (32:04):
I'm sorry this, Thomas here a little nervous today, aren't you.

Speaker 20 (32:09):
I am a little bit nervous.

Speaker 12 (32:13):
And this is hard to talk about there. Yes, did
you suspect that Brian Winchester, your husband, was having an
affair with Denise Williams.

Speaker 20 (32:26):
I did suspect that.

Speaker 12 (32:29):
I want to take you back to December of nineteen
ninety nine. This is before you're separated. Okay, did you
receive a phone call from the Tailasi police department?

Speaker 5 (32:41):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (32:43):
What was that phone call in reference to?

Speaker 20 (32:46):
It was in reference to.

Speaker 19 (32:50):
There was a police officer who was standing at Brian's
truck and she said, you know, ma'am, i'm here.

Speaker 20 (32:58):
Your truck is in this parking lot. And she was just.

Speaker 19 (33:03):
Like doing a call sort of like this truck is here.
And I guess she had looked at the registration and
saw that it was ours, and so she was at
Brian's truck.

Speaker 12 (33:12):
And she get a description of the truck to you.

Speaker 20 (33:15):
She did because everything, yes, yes, she she.

Speaker 19 (33:21):
I was like that, you know, it can't be and
she said, well, it has a bumper sticker, you know,
this bumper sticker, this bumper sticker, this bumper sticker. And
so I was like, well, yes, that is our vehicle.

Speaker 12 (33:33):
Well you just said it can't be. Why did this, uh,
why couldn't it be Brian's truck.

Speaker 19 (33:41):
Brian had told me that he was in Arkansas hunting,
and so I was confused as to why she was
telling me that she was at the truck because I
had been told by Brian that he was in Arkansas
with the truck hunt.

Speaker 12 (34:00):
Now were you told the location of the truck. Was
it at a church?

Speaker 20 (34:05):
Yes, it was.

Speaker 19 (34:07):
It was at a church, Grace Church or Grace is
in the name.

Speaker 12 (34:12):
I'm not sure the whole generally located. Was that close
to where Denise Williams was living at the time?

Speaker 20 (34:21):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (34:22):
Where was Denise Williams living at the time.

Speaker 19 (34:25):
She was living at on Centennial Oaks.

Speaker 21 (34:31):
Drive.

Speaker 12 (34:35):
I want to pass forward a little bit and now
I want to talk to you about a trip that
you took to Panama City. Do you remember a trip
like that?

Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (34:47):
Who went on that trip? Actually, let's start with this.
Who was supposed to go on that trip?

Speaker 19 (34:55):
It was supposed to be the four of us. It
was supposed to be me and Brian and Denise and Mike.

Speaker 12 (35:03):
What was the purpose of the trip? Why were you
going to Panama City?

Speaker 19 (35:07):
It was supposed to be like a birthday trip?

Speaker 12 (35:12):
Whose birthday?

Speaker 20 (35:13):
Where we celebrated Denise's thirtieth birthday?

Speaker 5 (35:17):
Okay?

Speaker 12 (35:17):
And so she was born in nineteen seventies after right, Yes,
and it's our thirtieth birthday would have.

Speaker 20 (35:25):
Been when two thousand?

Speaker 12 (35:28):
Okay, do you know what months we're talking about? That?
This was that the trip was planned.

Speaker 19 (35:37):
It would have been, you know, spring March or April.
You know, I don't know how the weekends would have
lined up.

Speaker 12 (35:45):
But springtime of two thousand correct. And what was a plan?
Were you meeting someplace and driving over together?

Speaker 14 (35:57):
Or what.

Speaker 19 (36:00):
The plan was for Mike and Denise to come over
to our house on Mino Creek Drive and we were
going to all drive together over there and to Panama City.

Speaker 12 (36:14):
Did my show up?

Speaker 17 (36:16):
No?

Speaker 12 (36:17):
Did Denise show up?

Speaker 20 (36:19):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (36:22):
Were you informed that Mike was at going?

Speaker 20 (36:26):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (36:27):
How did that make you feel?

Speaker 20 (36:29):
I didn't want to go.

Speaker 19 (36:34):
Because at that point in our lives, whenever it was
just me with Brian and Denise, it was uncomfortable. I
felt like a third wheel. I felt like I was
on a date with the two of them.

Speaker 12 (36:55):
So how did you respond to the idea of going
to Panama City with Denise and your husband?

Speaker 19 (37:04):
I said, if Mike doesn't have to go, I don't
have to go either. I didn't want to go, and
I had, I guess.

Speaker 20 (37:15):
Sort of a little tantrum, and I.

Speaker 19 (37:18):
Ran inside and I locked myself in the bathroom and
I said I'm not going.

Speaker 12 (37:25):
But you eventually went.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
I did.

Speaker 12 (37:29):
Why did you go?

Speaker 19 (37:32):
Just because as I was there in the bathroom, they
were on the other side just talking me into going.

Speaker 12 (37:41):
And so let's talk about the trip itself. When you
got there. Do you remember going out to clubs?

Speaker 21 (37:51):
I do?

Speaker 12 (37:52):
Okay, do you remember going to a strip club?

Speaker 21 (37:55):
I do.

Speaker 12 (37:57):
Was Brian and Denise both president for that?

Speaker 18 (38:00):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (38:03):
Did you drink a lot that weekend or that on
that trip?

Speaker 5 (38:07):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (38:13):
Do you remember having photographs sticking up you?

Speaker 19 (38:18):
I don't remember specifically the moments that that, but when
I saw the photograph.

Speaker 20 (38:27):
I knew what it was.

Speaker 12 (38:32):
Who took the picture?

Speaker 20 (38:33):
Brian did.

Speaker 12 (38:37):
Do you remember any of the details of what happened
after those photographs would have been taken?

Speaker 20 (38:44):
I don't.

Speaker 19 (38:44):
I don't remember specifically a lot about that weekend.

Speaker 12 (38:55):
At some point. Did you find some movie tickets?

Speaker 2 (39:00):
I did.

Speaker 12 (39:01):
Did that increase your suspicion that Brian was having in
it there?

Speaker 20 (39:05):
Yes?

Speaker 10 (39:06):
It did.

Speaker 12 (39:06):
Where did you find the movie tickets?

Speaker 19 (39:08):
I found them in his wallet and who's wallet? I
found them in Brian's wallet. I found two movie tickets.

Speaker 12 (39:16):
What was the movie the tickets were for?

Speaker 20 (39:19):
It was for a movie called The Virgin Suicides.

Speaker 12 (39:22):
And just to be clear, these used tickets or tickets
that you bought beforehand.

Speaker 20 (39:27):
They were used tickets, and I knew I had not
gone to see the movie.

Speaker 12 (39:33):
So it was like they I raised your suspicions. Yes,
it was like, okay, what does the name Meridian mean
to you?

Speaker 20 (39:52):
Meridian is a name that when.

Speaker 19 (39:57):
We would like go out. It was a name that
kind of became a party name for Denise, who came
up with the day I can I remember specifically whose
idea it was.

Speaker 20 (40:18):
She lived on Meridian.

Speaker 19 (40:19):
Road at that time, and we had gone to a
concert at the Moon and at the end of the
concert you could like go up to the band and
they would sign a CD or whatever, and that night,
you know, she had them. She was like, oh, say
to Meridian, you know, so they signed it. I remember

(40:43):
them signing it to her, and so it just kind
of you came.

Speaker 7 (40:47):
So you've seen Denise use the name Meridian before.

Speaker 12 (40:51):
Yes, did you ever find a receipt that referenced the
name Meridian?

Speaker 2 (40:56):
I did.

Speaker 12 (40:57):
Can you tell the jury where you found that receipt?

Speaker 20 (41:02):
I had gone into Brian's office and.

Speaker 19 (41:07):
This is when I was contemplating what my next steps
would be as far as.

Speaker 20 (41:19):
Moving out.

Speaker 19 (41:19):
We didn't have bills sent to our house. He would
have all of our bills sent.

Speaker 20 (41:24):
To his office.

Speaker 19 (41:25):
So I had gone to his office one evening and
I was just looking through his desk drawers, just trying
to find out.

Speaker 20 (41:36):
Information about our financial life.

Speaker 12 (41:40):
And you came across the receipt.

Speaker 20 (41:42):
And I came across the receipt.

Speaker 12 (41:45):
Judge me, I approached it with us.

Speaker 18 (41:46):
You may.

Speaker 12 (41:52):
Ms Thompson going to show you at market in states
ativits plot. Is this a receipt that you're talking about? Yes, sir,
is that a fair copy of that receipt? Yes, it
is church Out author states Exhibit twenty.

Speaker 7 (42:05):
I heave any eviction the War Foundation on the date
of the secret Honor Churchy.

Speaker 12 (42:14):
There's a date on the receipt. What is the date
on that It.

Speaker 20 (42:19):
Says seven twenty eighth one, not.

Speaker 12 (42:23):
During the time that you just testified you yes, Judge
on author states Ephibit twenty.

Speaker 18 (42:30):
Further addiction, why didn't you no objection? All right, it'll
be admitted with that addiction.

Speaker 9 (42:39):
Permssion polish you may, Amos Thomas. This is an obviously
a copy and we can't flip.

Speaker 20 (42:56):
Over the part that's correct.

Speaker 14 (43:04):
H m m.

Speaker 2 (43:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 12 (43:18):
You point out the day the area.

Speaker 18 (43:21):
That makes fund.

Speaker 20 (43:24):
Right there?

Speaker 12 (43:27):
Okay, where was this receipt from there?

Speaker 20 (43:38):
It's from the Gold Center from I didn't do it
the Gold Center, and you were.

Speaker 12 (43:47):
Able to answer. At one point we looked at the entirecy.

Speaker 7 (43:50):
Is that the yes, okay, what was the receipt?

Speaker 19 (44:01):
It was for a necklace and it was during the
time when it was kind of popular to have a
name on a like a gold name, and it was
the name Meridian. It was like a necklace with the
name Meridian.

Speaker 20 (44:16):
So I knew what that was. And that's what the
receipt was for, was for one of those necklaces.

Speaker 12 (44:22):
And that date is July, the late July two thousand
and one, correct, that's before you separated from Brian Winchester.

Speaker 19 (44:29):
Is that right?

Speaker 20 (44:30):
Yes, that's correct, and.

Speaker 12 (44:38):
You separated from Brian Winchester. Apossumin leve about a month
after that.

Speaker 22 (44:45):
Month and a half, right, she's trying to take down
which you say, You'll say, yes, yeah.

Speaker 12 (44:53):
I'm sorry, and ultimately you divorced Brian Winchester.

Speaker 20 (44:59):
Yes, sir.

Speaker 12 (45:02):
On the fast forward now to August of twenty sixteen,
were you aware of the Brian Winchester kidnapped Denise Williams,
who was then Denise Winchester. Yes, after that occurred, did
you have conversations with Denise Williams about what occurred? Yes,

(45:26):
about a week after that incident, that kidnapping, Denise ask
you to do something.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
Yes.

Speaker 12 (45:36):
What did she ask you to do?

Speaker 20 (45:39):
Denise asked me to tell Marcus to get a message
to Brian that I'm not talking.

Speaker 12 (46:00):
Was a week approximately after the kidnapping.

Speaker 5 (46:03):
Yes.

Speaker 12 (46:06):
Sometime after that, did you start communicating with the Florida
Department of Law Enforcement?

Speaker 2 (46:13):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (46:22):
Who's Marcus?

Speaker 19 (46:24):
Marcus is Brian Winchester's father, Marcus Winchester.

Speaker 12 (46:29):
Okay, we're gonna say I'm not talking. Is it referring
that Kathy Thomas is not talking or Denise Williams was
not talking?

Speaker 20 (46:37):
That Denise was not talking.

Speaker 19 (46:41):
She wanted me to tell Marcus to tell Brian that
she wasn't talking. She said, I'm not talking, but that
was her saying that to me.

Speaker 12 (46:53):
Okay. After that, at some point, did you start having
communications with the Florida Department of Law Yes. Was there
any one in particular that you started communicating with?

Speaker 19 (47:08):
William Michaeler and Mike Devaney.

Speaker 12 (47:13):
And at some point after that did you agree to
start working as a confidential source, Yes, I did. As
part of that. Were you given away to make recordings?

Speaker 23 (47:25):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (47:35):
After that? Did you ever confront Denise about what she
asked you to do that week after the kidnapping?

Speaker 5 (47:44):
Yes?

Speaker 11 (47:44):
I did.

Speaker 12 (47:45):
Did you record that conversation? Yes, sir, judgement that approach.

Speaker 18 (47:50):
Give minute.

Speaker 12 (47:57):
There was Thomas Charlie Mark she did s if theyre
at sixteen? This is a recording. Did you have a
chance to review this in our office before your testomary today?

Speaker 5 (48:05):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (48:06):
Is that apparent accurate depiction of the reporting that you made?

Speaker 20 (48:09):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (48:11):
Office at sixteen?

Speaker 18 (48:13):
This time an objection to be a pivot.

Speaker 14 (48:23):
And I'm having to shoot my mom's to I've got
a test tonight and so on the study and you
have there and people are going to be coming announce
I'm just gonna go be over there.

Speaker 19 (48:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (48:35):
So you're driving back.

Speaker 14 (48:36):
So does that mean next is worse or anyway?

Speaker 20 (48:40):
Well, I was headed back anyways, but this way, if
you know, if Rocking needs to come, you can.

Speaker 14 (48:48):
Yeah. And you got the.

Speaker 18 (48:53):
I think we have here. Identify who's talking to the
Jerry can h follow it a little.

Speaker 12 (48:59):
Bit, But there's two people on this recording.

Speaker 4 (49:02):
Is that right?

Speaker 5 (49:03):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (49:04):
One voice is yours?

Speaker 21 (49:05):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (49:06):
And who's the other voice?

Speaker 20 (49:08):
Denise?

Speaker 5 (49:16):
Shut up?

Speaker 6 (49:16):
So I couldn't even talk to you.

Speaker 12 (49:18):
I was just like a marry, I'll just stick it
into first.

Speaker 14 (49:22):
Hang on one second, I just got in the car.

Speaker 20 (49:24):
I just stopped to get coffee.

Speaker 23 (49:25):
Let me get.

Speaker 12 (49:28):
That person who just said I just got in the car.
I just got to get coffee. Whose voice is that?

Speaker 23 (49:33):
That was me?

Speaker 4 (49:34):
Okay?

Speaker 12 (49:35):
So the other voice is Denise, that's right?

Speaker 5 (49:38):
All right?

Speaker 21 (49:41):
Okay, So I am.

Speaker 20 (49:44):
Just starting to missed again. This is going to be
like a miserable jibe. So I'm kind of freaking out
about this subpoena.

Speaker 14 (49:55):
I'm sure when is it?

Speaker 20 (49:57):
It's February twenty second.

Speaker 12 (50:00):
A person who was talking about a subpoena, that was
your voice, right, yes? And the person who said, I'm
sure that's Denise Williams.

Speaker 20 (50:08):
That's correct.

Speaker 12 (50:11):
Yeah, when are you talking about a subpoena? What are
you talking about?

Speaker 20 (50:18):
Well, as one of the.

Speaker 19 (50:23):
Things that as a confidential source, that William Mickler, you know,
we were going to say that I had received a subpoena,
so that that was going to be a subpoena for
me to have to.

Speaker 5 (50:45):
Talk to.

Speaker 20 (50:47):
Mister Devaney about, you know, the case I had. I
had received a subpoena from Mike Devane and this was
all under the.

Speaker 12 (51:05):
That never so that never happened.

Speaker 20 (51:07):
That never happened. That was part of part of being
the confidential source.

Speaker 12 (51:14):
That's how we're getting everything correct.

Speaker 19 (51:16):
That's a subject to bring up the subject correct for
me to talk to her and say, I've got I
have received the subpoena. I'm gonna have to talk about this,
and this conversation is us talking about what I'm going
to be saying in that supposed subpoena.

Speaker 7 (51:33):
Okay, yeah, I'm back to it.

Speaker 14 (51:39):
Like you know, like you have to travel and you
mean they came out there, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 20 (51:46):
The attorney that I talked to, he's just like a
mortgage attorney.

Speaker 5 (51:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 20 (51:50):
So he said, he's like, you know, I could call.
He's like, I don't do this, but I could call
and see if you could do it, or.

Speaker 19 (52:01):
You know, he's like you would have to go somewhere
where you would get sworn in, because the whole thing
is like getting sworn in.

Speaker 14 (52:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 23 (52:07):
Yeah, So I was like, all right, well, you know,
just let me kind of figure out what I'm going.

Speaker 14 (52:14):
To do because Andy had said that to you remember
when you were going to get down position? But that
was a subpoena too, right, But I know finger did it.

Speaker 20 (52:24):
No, No, they didn't ever do it.

Speaker 14 (52:28):
I just can't imagine that. What if somebody lived in
Alaska or in another country or I don't know whatever.

Speaker 19 (52:35):
Well, here's here's my problem, and I'm I'm gonna get
upset here.

Speaker 20 (52:44):
But my problem is.

Speaker 21 (52:48):
That I can't really talk to Rocky about any of this.

Speaker 20 (52:59):
He's my husband, my current husband.

Speaker 19 (53:03):
Right, because I know I know they're wanting to talk
to me about Mike. And I mean, over the time

(53:24):
that we've been married, I've.

Speaker 20 (53:26):
Always just pretended like I.

Speaker 23 (53:32):
Don't know anything, and.

Speaker 21 (53:47):
I mean I do know what you know?

Speaker 6 (53:53):
Well, do you remember back when.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
All of that happened with you and Brian and Chuck
in Atlanta?

Speaker 21 (54:13):
Yeah, Well, Brian called me.

Speaker 20 (54:28):
At the shop crying.

Speaker 5 (54:30):
And before I mad, Well, I you know, I.

Speaker 19 (54:42):
Don't know because I didn't know that all of that
had happened until Chuck wrote me a letter.

Speaker 6 (54:49):
But Brian had figured out.

Speaker 23 (54:53):
That you were cheating on him with Chuck, and he
just told me about Mike.

Speaker 14 (55:07):
What he said, he called you upset about shot and
then hed he was like he was mad at you.

Speaker 20 (55:29):
And so he told me he told me about what
happened to Mike.

Speaker 14 (55:36):
Well, I would love to know what happened to Mike.

Speaker 5 (55:41):
He never told me.

Speaker 14 (55:48):
They said they found his remains and that he was
beaten or that he was shot.

Speaker 19 (55:54):
Brian told me that y'all planned it, planned what m
oh my god, and Marcus showed up at the shop
later that afternoon, you know, telling me how I would.

Speaker 20 (56:16):
Have to take this to my grave.

Speaker 10 (56:18):
Guys, Marward's life it would ruin you know.

Speaker 24 (56:23):
Apparently Brian told Marcus that he had talked to me,
and he went on to just tell me.

Speaker 10 (56:32):
Marcus went on to tell.

Speaker 19 (56:33):
Me how my life would be ruined, how I would
never be able to start over if Stafford's life was ruined.

Speaker 6 (56:38):
If so, Marcus knew.

Speaker 14 (56:45):
And when you said, Brian said, y'all you're talking about
me and Brian and Marcus or who.

Speaker 21 (56:52):
You and Brian.

Speaker 14 (56:56):
And and that Marcus is involved. I mean obviously if
he came to talk you, well.

Speaker 25 (57:04):
You know, shut it down, shut down, so you know
whatever in the world.

Speaker 5 (57:13):
I mean, it's it's it's.

Speaker 14 (57:21):
And then you got a letter from Shuck. My parents
got a letter too, But you got a letter from
Shuck and he's talking.

Speaker 21 (57:27):
About it too.

Speaker 12 (57:28):
Or now.

Speaker 23 (57:30):
Chuck told me what happened in Atlanta and Atlanta Okay.

Speaker 12 (57:32):
Yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
Here's the deal. Here is the deal.

Speaker 20 (57:41):
Hang on, somebody's texting me.

Speaker 12 (57:45):
Roggy Rex is not doing well.

Speaker 14 (57:49):
Yeah, that's pretty major, especially with Marcus involved.

Speaker 19 (57:55):
Well, I mean I know that you know something, Denise,
because whenever I was going out to Marcus, You're like,
tell Marcus to tell Brian, I'm not talking.

Speaker 21 (58:06):
Yeah, and I knew what that meant.

Speaker 14 (58:08):
Well, that's why, because what they've been doing is they've
been lying to me, and they've been lying to them.
And obviously, I mean because you told me the thing
about him saying what I wrote in the letter to
the Jet, which I didn't, and so they're playing everybody
against each other.

Speaker 5 (58:22):
He did that.

Speaker 6 (58:23):
Here's the thing.

Speaker 19 (58:24):
I don't even care about all that anymore because time
has moved on.

Speaker 20 (58:29):
Mike is in heaven.

Speaker 7 (58:32):
So here is my problem.

Speaker 26 (58:34):
Here is like my problem if Lonnie doesn't know any
of this, Rockie doesn't know that I know, and all
these years anytime anything ever came up about Mike.

Speaker 21 (58:45):
I just sit with my mouth shot.

Speaker 7 (58:48):
He never would have married me if he had known.

Speaker 14 (58:52):
This has nothing to do with you.

Speaker 25 (58:54):
I haven't been lying to him for fifteen years.

Speaker 14 (58:58):
But you're talking about something Chuck happened years later. So
then you're saying that years later Ryan told you something,
Marcus came to you. So two people came to you
to talk to you about this years after it happened.
Had you even had you met Rocky?

Speaker 5 (59:12):
Then yes?

Speaker 14 (59:15):
I mean, but that had that that What that has
to do with is two people telling you something that
has nothing to do with you and anything that you
did or anything that you didn't do.

Speaker 21 (59:25):
I mean, it doesn't and.

Speaker 14 (59:27):
There's nothing you can't tell Rocky.

Speaker 5 (59:29):
I know that.

Speaker 14 (59:32):
I'm sure that. So that's why you were talking about
losing your family.

Speaker 10 (59:35):
I am gonna lose my family if I lie.

Speaker 23 (59:39):
If I lie, when if they asked me, did you
know what happened to Mike?

Speaker 14 (59:45):
Wef I lie?

Speaker 10 (59:46):
Then now now what happens? And then when I go
home and Rocky says, why didn't you ever say anything?

Speaker 17 (59:56):
Like?

Speaker 6 (59:57):
How how did I explain that?

Speaker 5 (01:00:00):
Other?

Speaker 14 (01:00:00):
I explain that I just decided to forget it, he
never would have married me. I don't believe that because
you didn't have nothing.

Speaker 5 (01:00:12):
Because I know he is.

Speaker 14 (01:00:15):
Well, I'm not why to him about anything.

Speaker 6 (01:00:19):
But every time there anything about Mike, don't that is
a lie?

Speaker 14 (01:00:26):
Well that you didn't that you didn't tell him what
Brian told you if I did tell him what Ma
just told you. So again, it's two things that two
people told you. But it's not you. It's not he
fell in love with you, it's not you.

Speaker 10 (01:00:38):
Well, what am I supposed to do when they asked me?

Speaker 7 (01:00:44):
I mean what I was supposed to do?

Speaker 14 (01:00:50):
Was he pushing He was pushing you on the phone
about it? Is that what you were saying?

Speaker 6 (01:00:54):
Yeah, Rocky's like, why do you have this?

Speaker 10 (01:01:03):
Why do they want to talk to you?

Speaker 14 (01:01:05):
I mean my guess was because you were married Brian
at the time, you and Bryan. I'm guessing that I
don't know. I mean, if all this is tied to
this guy that he talked to, then I'm guessing he
wanted to talk to you because you were friends to that.
But I mean, but again, it just it has nothing
to do with Rocky or your girls, or your family, nothing.

Speaker 21 (01:01:29):
Nothing.

Speaker 14 (01:01:30):
They weren't even around then, and you weren't either. This
is years later, because I'm trying to think it was
three at least three years later.

Speaker 21 (01:01:48):
When I was with Chuck.

Speaker 14 (01:02:00):
Yeah, and I mean, Rockie's not gonna h stuff that
you kept inside that people have told you. If you
decide to tell him, he's gonna be fine. If you don't,
he's not. He's not gonna You're not gonna leave. He's
not gonna be like we're getting a divorce. I mean,

(01:02:21):
there's no way.

Speaker 2 (01:02:23):
There's no way.

Speaker 14 (01:02:25):
And if you would have told him back then when
y'all are engaged, you're getting engaged or whatever, it's still
had nothing to do with him meeting you, him falling
in love with you, him wanting to marry you, your family,
has to do with Ryan and Marcus. You know what
I'm saying. Yeah, So it's February twenty second, it's all

(01:02:52):
he said.

Speaker 8 (01:02:55):
Hm.

Speaker 14 (01:03:04):
And is it a trial because it's set a witness
something I didn't understand what that's time that because I
got to Penis before for deposition, it's at home.

Speaker 10 (01:03:15):
I don't have it with me.

Speaker 24 (01:03:17):
It just says that, like I have to go down
to the state Attorney's office at ten o'clock in the morning.

Speaker 14 (01:03:25):
The state Attorney. Yeah, because that's where I think, that's
where I have to go to you and you and
Marcus have yell ever spoken since has he ever said
anything to you?

Speaker 24 (01:03:42):
So it's just been understood that, you know, if I
ever said anything, then everything, you know, all the all
the stupid shit we ever did, would everybody would know?
You know, And yeah, everybody would know. And wouldn't that

(01:04:07):
be awful when you know Mike's in a better place
and so.

Speaker 23 (01:04:19):
You know, I don't know.

Speaker 14 (01:04:33):
I mean that has done that to you again, that's
using fear and the unknown to try to control you.
I mean, it's typical.

Speaker 24 (01:04:44):
Yeah, did Denise just gonna ask you this? Because I've
been thinking about it?

Speaker 21 (01:04:50):
But why not?

Speaker 10 (01:04:56):
Long before mix.

Speaker 5 (01:05:00):
He called me.

Speaker 17 (01:05:02):
Mike called me and he had found a bunch of
money in your wallet and he said, I think Denise
has a boyfriend. He said, he found a bunch of

(01:05:24):
money in your wallet, a bunch of cash. And he
said that you told him something about Deanna, that you
told him that Deanna had paid you back for something.
And he said that he had asked Dianna and Deanna
said that wasn't true.

Speaker 14 (01:05:40):
Yeah, yeah, I all.

Speaker 6 (01:05:45):
But I remember thinking, like.

Speaker 20 (01:05:50):
He knows, he knows that Denise and Brian.

Speaker 10 (01:05:54):
Like each other, and like I've always been myself if
I had Mike. I think Brian has a girlfriend. I've
always wondered if he was still being here, why why

(01:06:14):
couldn't y'all just.

Speaker 7 (01:06:15):
Get a divorce.

Speaker 14 (01:06:17):
I've always known.

Speaker 7 (01:06:19):
That you and Brian loved each other.

Speaker 17 (01:06:23):
Brian told me one time that you were his best
friend and that was just the way it was always
gonna be.

Speaker 10 (01:06:34):
Did Mike find out?

Speaker 5 (01:06:37):
No?

Speaker 19 (01:06:37):
That was all.

Speaker 14 (01:06:38):
I remember him calling Dianna. I think I remember.

Speaker 27 (01:06:41):
I'm pretty sure he told me that he had called
to you. But I know Missionary called Diana because he
talked about it, and I remember he was a conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
I don't remember.

Speaker 14 (01:06:56):
I remember us talking about it. I remember that we
were talking about Carol because of like the pot and
stuff like that. I remember talking about that with him,
and I think Carol ended up talking to him because
that's And I don't remember how much money it was.
I don't remember. I do remember money, and I do
remember a conversation about Pott and Carol and Deanna, and

(01:07:20):
I remember that he had talked to Dianna too, so
I had to tell her not all that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
But so I do remember that.

Speaker 14 (01:07:28):
Yeah, I guess I didn't know that he had talked
to you.

Speaker 10 (01:07:42):
I don't know.

Speaker 14 (01:07:43):
I mean I would, I don't know. I just I
can't do anything with the I couldn't do anything with
the divorce. I couldn't do anything with any of this
without talking to an attorney. And mainly I just talked
with Becky's husband and then whoever Kristen tells me to
talk to. But I mean you, I mean, that's all

(01:08:07):
up to you. I'm telling Rocky too, is up to you.
But again, I don't I don't see him.

Speaker 18 (01:08:15):
I don't.

Speaker 14 (01:08:16):
I just see him being like, oh my god, and
you know, I just but I don't. I don't see
him being like we're getting a divorce, and surely you
don't see that.

Speaker 24 (01:08:25):
I do see that because I just know that like
every year if it comes up, and you know, if
there's something in the paper, and then I just to know,
like every I know, he would have said, why didn't
you ever tell me?

Speaker 10 (01:08:42):
I'm That's how he is, because he is good and honest.

Speaker 13 (01:08:47):
He's not like but.

Speaker 10 (01:08:51):
He's he's good and honest, and he will just say,
if you've kept.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
This from me, what else?

Speaker 28 (01:09:08):
But if if I go to the interview and I'm
just like, I don't know anything, I don't know anything,
I mean, what if they catch me lying and then
what happens?

Speaker 5 (01:09:26):
I have no idea.

Speaker 14 (01:09:31):
I have no idea. I mean, they told me that
day that Brian did all that to me. They told
me that the Brian he's been saying this, that or
the other. I then told me all consequent and come
to find out, one of the attorneys told me that
they went in there to talk to him because they
had found him and they wouldn't been to talk to him,
and that he chance and was already there and he'd

(01:09:52):
say one word. So I don't know. So what my
point telling you that is they could say we know
you know, they could say can say whatever they want
to say, and it's legal for them to do that.
So whether they ever say we know you're lying or
we whatever, I mean, you don't know you have not
yet it's true or not, because I usually find out
laer let's stat from truth and ye had the guy

(01:10:15):
asked me about you, but he just asked me about
our relationship or whatever that guy minds.

Speaker 12 (01:10:24):
When he was fishing me in the he started questions.

Speaker 14 (01:10:30):
When you went to the police, Yeah, but I mean
it was just what was your relationship stuff like that.
Wasn't anything about market. Marcus's name didn't come up or
anything like that. Well, I'm sure if they I would
guess if they were doing this to you, they're doing
this to Marcus. I mean, I don't but I don't know.

Speaker 10 (01:10:48):
I don't know, but that I'm going to when I
get back, I'm going to I'm gonna get it just like.

Speaker 20 (01:11:00):
My They called me while I was in town. I
don't know how they know I was in town, and
so I'm not I'm gonna get like a just like
a throwaway phone.

Speaker 21 (01:11:14):
Because God, who knows.

Speaker 10 (01:11:18):
I mean, I don't know. I'm just scared. I just
feel I just feel like, why did they keep.

Speaker 14 (01:11:27):
Calling me, like calling me this weekend.

Speaker 10 (01:11:32):
And left a message that they knew I was in town.

Speaker 14 (01:11:35):
So I think that they're listening to me, probably, I mean,
I don't know, but I think could be. I don't know.
I mean I would My advice to you is to
just is to talk to Rocky.

Speaker 21 (01:11:49):
I can't I cannot do that.

Speaker 7 (01:11:53):
I don't have anywhere to go.

Speaker 5 (01:11:55):
I don't even have a job.

Speaker 14 (01:11:59):
I just don't think it's going to be what you
think it's gonna be. I really don't. And I don't
know how you can be married to him for the
next time many years and not saying anything if it's
bothering me that bad.

Speaker 10 (01:12:15):
It wasn't bothering me until I got a sena, until.

Speaker 14 (01:12:18):
I have to do it. Yeah, mm hmm, that's it,
I can think. But I think he would then then
to be him holding you, you know. I mean, I
don't think he would be like.

Speaker 7 (01:12:35):
Goodbye, it is starting to hard, I'm gonna have to
go for.

Speaker 21 (01:12:44):
I'm gonna have to go.

Speaker 14 (01:12:47):
So that's I mean, after hearing all this, that's what
I think. And I think that you're wrong. I think
that he's I think you're right about him being a kind,
good person, and I think that I mean that these
are things that people told you years after Mike died.
I just I don't think he's gonna he's gonna be
like we're getting divorced than never talking to you again.

Speaker 5 (01:13:10):
I really don't. But I mean, you know, I'm better,
but I don't.

Speaker 7 (01:13:18):
I just don't.

Speaker 21 (01:13:25):
H held over here, be careful.

Speaker 12 (01:13:32):
All right, Yeah, I gotta go.

Speaker 5 (01:13:33):
Okay.

Speaker 12 (01:13:45):
That other voice on the tape is Denise Williams.

Speaker 18 (01:13:47):
Roight.

Speaker 5 (01:13:48):
Yes.

Speaker 12 (01:13:49):
Do you see Denise Williams in the courtroom today?

Speaker 20 (01:13:51):
Yes?

Speaker 18 (01:13:51):
I do.

Speaker 12 (01:13:52):
Can you point her out and identify an autical clothing
that she's wearing.

Speaker 19 (01:13:56):
Yes, she's right over here, on to the right of me,
and she's wearing a gray sweater.

Speaker 12 (01:14:01):
Had the record reflect that the witnesses the Denise Williams prof.

Speaker 7 (01:14:21):
Good morning, Miss Thomas, good morning. That tape recording we
just heard, was it fdl e's idea for you to
cry and be upset? Is that the natural.

Speaker 20 (01:14:35):
I don't remember having it. I don't understand the question.

Speaker 7 (01:14:40):
I guess well, you indicated that FDLI had set you
up with a little bit of a script about having
a subpoena correct told you as an investigative source to
make calls to Denise Williams. Yes, during this course of
time that you're doing that, how many times did you
talk with Denise Williams on the phone prior to recording

(01:15:03):
that get you a call.

Speaker 20 (01:15:08):
As a confidential source or just in general?

Speaker 2 (01:15:11):
Do you mean in general?

Speaker 7 (01:15:12):
How often let me help you out here. Let's just
pick a narrow time frame. Let's say beginning January one
of this year, twenty eighteen. Okay, okay, as I understand
that this phone call was recorded when sometime in February
of twenty eighteen, Yes, sir, okay, So let's just begin
with January one. How many times do you think you

(01:15:34):
would have spoken with Denise Williams on the telephone prior
to this recorded call?

Speaker 20 (01:15:41):
Probably every day?

Speaker 7 (01:15:43):
Would you also have texted back and forth? Yes, you
talk about the same types of things that you talk about,
your husband's getting coffee driving.

Speaker 5 (01:15:58):
Yes.

Speaker 7 (01:16:01):
How many times did you record all of those conversations?

Speaker 19 (01:16:05):
I cannot remember specifically how many I recorded.

Speaker 7 (01:16:10):
But it was more than one, yes, sir, and you
sent all of those recordings to the Florida Department Law Enforcement.

Speaker 19 (01:16:23):
I'm not sure that I understand every one of our
everyday conversations or every one of the recorded conversations.

Speaker 7 (01:16:31):
Let's start with the recorded conversations.

Speaker 20 (01:16:33):
Yes, I gave all of those to f Daily Yes, sir.

Speaker 7 (01:16:36):
How many of those do you think there were?

Speaker 20 (01:16:39):
I think there were maybe four to maybe four to.

Speaker 7 (01:16:46):
Six, And those were all the conversations that were scripted
out by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to lie
to Miss Williams that you had received the subpoena went
in back.

Speaker 5 (01:16:58):
You had not.

Speaker 20 (01:17:01):
When I was working forty l A, yes, sir, So.

Speaker 7 (01:17:04):
It would be fair to say when you were making
these calls with Miss william Bullworth for fifty LA and
you were at least lying in part about what was
actually going on. Yes, And that phone call speaks for herself.

Speaker 18 (01:17:26):
So the jury's heard.

Speaker 4 (01:17:27):
They get here again.

Speaker 7 (01:17:28):
So I'm not going to get into what everybody said.
What you said only to suggest that Denise's your friend,
isn't she?

Speaker 5 (01:17:37):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (01:17:38):
And as that phone call was ending, she was trying
to be a friend. She's tony to be safe, wasn't she?

Speaker 20 (01:17:43):
Yes, sir?

Speaker 7 (01:17:44):
And you two probably talked the day after that phone
called in't you yes? Now you testified on direct examination
that you suspected that Brian Winchester and Denise Williams were
having affair. You suspected that.

Speaker 20 (01:18:03):
Yes, sir, You don't know that d.

Speaker 19 (01:18:08):
I never caught them kissing or I never saw with
my own eyes them specifically in a physical embrace. No, sir,
I never caught them.

Speaker 7 (01:18:27):
You don't know if they were having a fair.

Speaker 20 (01:18:29):
As a fact, I never caught them in the act.
That is correct. That is a fact.

Speaker 7 (01:18:40):
You had talked about.

Speaker 12 (01:18:46):
Well.

Speaker 7 (01:18:48):
Brian was a selfish husband, wasn't he?

Speaker 5 (01:18:51):
Yes?

Speaker 14 (01:18:51):
He was.

Speaker 7 (01:18:53):
And you were having a troubled relationship with Brian Winchester
well before your separation in September of two thousand and one. Correct, yes, sir.
And it is an affair to say that in two
thousand you were basically sleeping in a different room from
mister Winchester.

Speaker 20 (01:19:15):
Yes, sir, that's fair to say.

Speaker 7 (01:19:16):
You're either sleeping in Stafford's room or you're sleeping on
the couch, remember me. Yes, you had mentioned earlier that
you had some suspicions about Brian. Do you know who
Angela Stafford is?

Speaker 21 (01:19:31):
I do know who she is.

Speaker 7 (01:19:33):
Did you ever learn that Angela Stafford and your then husband,
Brian Winchester had gone out to claiming Plaza after Denise's
baby shower?

Speaker 20 (01:19:45):
Can you repeat that?

Speaker 2 (01:19:46):
Please?

Speaker 18 (01:19:47):
Did you know that?

Speaker 12 (01:19:48):
Where you?

Speaker 7 (01:19:49):
Do you remember when Denise had her baby shower? Pretty inside?

Speaker 20 (01:19:58):
I'm sure I was there, I am not at whose
house was it at? I think she may have had
a couple.

Speaker 7 (01:20:06):
Do you ever recall having or attending a baby shower
for miss Williams at the home on Antonio Lewis.

Speaker 19 (01:20:22):
I don't have a recollection of that specifically, did something
happen at the baby shower?

Speaker 18 (01:20:31):
May I feel? I asked you another question.

Speaker 12 (01:20:33):
Okay, So you don't know if.

Speaker 7 (01:20:37):
Your then husband was out seeing or out going out
to clubs with other women other than your circle of friends.

Speaker 14 (01:20:44):
You don't.

Speaker 19 (01:20:47):
I had not caught him doing that either. I mean,
I can't say because I don't know. I don't want
to say he wasn't because I don't know, but I
can't say that he was either.

Speaker 7 (01:21:03):
Well, it's Thomas. We're here in a felony trial, my
plans on trial. You've testified during direct examination, You've answered
the government's questions. I'm trying to figure out what you
know and what your guests there.

Speaker 18 (01:21:17):
A question, mister, what do you know? That witness is void?
Int your question to ask a question?

Speaker 7 (01:21:26):
Do you know for a fact whether or not Brian
Winchester was cheating on you when you were married to him? No,
the Virgin Suicide movie received. Do you know for a
fact whether or not that has anything to do with
Denise Williams.

Speaker 19 (01:21:48):
Brian told me that he took Denise to the movie.

Speaker 7 (01:21:52):
Do you think that that going to the movie has
anything to do or approves in any way they were
having an affair?

Speaker 14 (01:22:00):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 19 (01:22:04):
I didn't know he was going to take her to
the movie beforehand, and he did it without telling me,
and he told me later that it was her that
he had taken. So I guess, no, it doesn't prove anything.
He just took someone else on a date without me knowing.
But I.

Speaker 20 (01:22:22):
I guess I can't.

Speaker 5 (01:22:27):
And when was it?

Speaker 7 (01:22:28):
When was that movie?

Speaker 19 (01:22:35):
To be honest, I would have to google to see
when it came out.

Speaker 20 (01:22:39):
I don't remember. I'm sorry.

Speaker 7 (01:22:42):
You testified earlier that you went to Panama City for
Denise's thirtieth birthday party and you struggled with it because
it was a difficult time. He didn't want to go. Correct.
You've seen the photographs from the State Attorney's Office that
have been introduced to thatdence of you and miss Williams
Beach and you and this wings up club.

Speaker 17 (01:23:06):
No I.

Speaker 7 (01:23:08):
Man person wintrontium.

Speaker 4 (01:23:27):
Samas.

Speaker 7 (01:23:27):
I'm going to show you we've been introduced into evidence
to STAGS until it's seventeenth positive several photographs.

Speaker 4 (01:23:38):
Please review these.

Speaker 7 (01:23:38):
Please do not answer saying it to you Pat after.

Speaker 29 (01:23:42):
This kah, Yeah, these Thomas were those photographs from that

(01:24:10):
weekend trip to Panama.

Speaker 12 (01:24:11):
City in.

Speaker 7 (01:24:13):
Two thousand, Yes, sir, And those pictures accurately depict you
and those photographs, yes, sir. And is that you and
Miss Williams smiling and staying next to each other in
a bikini, Yes, sir. That picked you and Miss Williams
smiling out at my gloves. Yes, sir, picked you and
Miss Williams essentially just having a good times two friends.

Speaker 20 (01:24:32):
Yes, sir, not perfect, but.

Speaker 2 (01:24:39):
Hyah h.

Speaker 7 (01:24:56):
H, Miss Thomas, when you were making these controlled calls,
as it relates to my clients, when you had learned
from the Department of Law Enforcement that Mike Williams remains
had been.

Speaker 20 (01:25:14):
Fact correct, No, sir, I didn't know that. At the
time of the controlled calls.

Speaker 7 (01:25:25):
You were not aware that in December of twenty and seventeen,
there was a press release in Florida Department Law Enforcement
announced that they had found Mike Williams remains and reclassified
the case of the homicide.

Speaker 20 (01:25:37):
I'm sorry, yes, sir, I did know that.

Speaker 19 (01:25:40):
I wait a second, can can you tell me the

(01:26:04):
date of when the press conference was, ma'am.

Speaker 7 (01:26:07):
Unfortunately, okay, we try another question that might help it.
So I'm trying to be a vasive It's.

Speaker 20 (01:26:14):
Not like I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be evasive either,
but I'm just trying.

Speaker 7 (01:26:21):
Did you learn all right? You have a son five,
Brian Winchester. Correct, Yes, and that means you have a
connection to Marcus Winchester because that is your son's grandfather. Yes, sir,
you are aware that your former husband and the father

(01:26:44):
of your son, kidnapped Anise Williams a gunpoint on August fifth,
twenty sixteenth. Correct, Yes, sir.

Speaker 12 (01:26:49):
You know that.

Speaker 7 (01:26:50):
Yes, and you know that from not only your own
personal experience, but you also spoke with Denise Williams that day. Correct, Yes, sir.
And you have spoken with Denise Williams constantly, work fairly
continuously after August fifth of twenty sixteen, correct, Yes, sir.

Speaker 12 (01:27:14):
Okay, and these could.

Speaker 7 (01:27:15):
Be almost considered daily phone calls or text messages. Yes, sir,
So you would have known in August of twenty sixteen
that your former husband was in jail and was facing
felony charges. I knew he was in jail yes, and
you also knew and I believe his referenced on your

(01:27:35):
phone call. You also knew that, specially agent Mike Devane.
He had spoken with Denise Williams at the Leon Kanny
Sheriff's office when she was there to talk about her kidnap.

Speaker 20 (01:27:45):
You call that, I do recall that, but she did not.
She did tell me that there was someone there, but
not right away.

Speaker 7 (01:27:55):
Did you later in your communications with miss Williams become
aware that that the fd ely agent she spoke to
on August fifth, twenty sixteen, was agent Mike Debany. Yes,
and you learned about this shortly after or did it
take time before you and her discussed specifically Aged Deviani.

Speaker 20 (01:28:19):
They took some time before we discussed him, but it.

Speaker 7 (01:28:22):
Became some point in your communication that you and she
could identify who these people were.

Speaker 20 (01:28:29):
No, we never really had. We just knew the one
Mike Devaney.

Speaker 7 (01:28:34):
And isn't it true that she told you she did
not have a good relationship or positive feeling about mister
Vany after the way she was questioned on August fifth?

Speaker 20 (01:28:42):
She said he was mean to her.

Speaker 7 (01:28:44):
Okay, she said some other things too, probably, or of course.

Speaker 2 (01:28:47):
She might have.

Speaker 20 (01:28:50):
I mainly remember her saying that he was mean to her, and.

Speaker 7 (01:29:00):
That's also why there's some so you know from your
previous communications with her. When you're talking about Agent Debany
on that controlled call, you know there's a history between
those two, and you already know that Miss Williams doesn't
like Agent Debate.

Speaker 20 (01:29:15):
Correct.

Speaker 7 (01:29:28):
There are things in that that a recording. Again, the
recording speaks for itself, but the name Charles Bumper comes
up in their whole confusing stuff about Charles Bumper. But
who was Charles? Who is Charles Bumper?

Speaker 18 (01:29:46):
Uh?

Speaker 20 (01:29:46):
He was a man that Denise had worked with and
she I guess she had dated him?

Speaker 7 (01:29:57):
Did she date him about the same time that that
you were getting formally divorced from mister Winchester. I approximately,
And their relationship was open and notorious. People knew that
they were dating or you knew that you that you

(01:30:18):
knew that Denise and Charles Parker were kant.

Speaker 19 (01:30:23):
Well, I had found that out from Brian, I didn't.
She and I were not communicating a lot after after
I had separated from Brian. Our relationship was not very
close for a couple of years around that time, so
I knew that from Brian, And you know we weren't talking.

(01:30:46):
We weren't during that time, We weren't on talking on
a daily basis like we were.

Speaker 2 (01:30:54):
Currently.

Speaker 7 (01:30:55):
Would it be fair to say that your relationship with
Missus Williams became closer or after she filed for divorce
from Brian Winchester. Yes, that would put you too in
the Brian Winchester's wives club together.

Speaker 5 (01:31:10):
Yes.

Speaker 7 (01:31:12):
Did she have many of the same Did she talk
with you about many of the same concerns she had
trying to divorce Brian Winchester as you had had? Yes,
couldn't get documents correct, Brian Winchester didn't want to say no,
didn't want to give up.

Speaker 12 (01:31:27):
Correct.

Speaker 7 (01:31:28):
And in fact, when you went through and finally got
your divorce from mister Winchester, I believe the final hearing
was right here.

Speaker 12 (01:31:35):
In the sporthouse, wasn't it correct?

Speaker 7 (01:31:37):
And if I recall correctly from previous in your own knowledge,
mister Winchester sat in one row behind you and try correct.
But to be fair, mister Winchester never really tried any
reconciliation attempts with you. No, he just didn't want you
to be divorced from correct. And then once you got

(01:31:57):
your finalized divorce and you were no longer married to
mister Winchester, you started a relationship with your current husband,
mister Thomas. Correct, right, And Brian didn't like that, did
he know? Did he try to stop your marriage from
mister Thomas.

Speaker 19 (01:32:14):
He did.

Speaker 5 (01:32:17):
So.

Speaker 7 (01:32:17):
As soon as you became engaged or romantically involved with
another man, mister Winchester's efforts to try to bring you
back intensified. Yes, because up until the divorce he hadn't
really cared.

Speaker 20 (01:32:31):
That, that is correct.

Speaker 7 (01:32:35):
Now, you were finally able to marry mister Thomas in
two thousand and four, yes, and thereafter mister Winchester and
missus mister Williams and miss Winchester got married two thousand
and five, correct.

Speaker 20 (01:32:50):
I think that.

Speaker 5 (01:32:51):
Yes.

Speaker 20 (01:32:52):
I believe it was around two thousand and.

Speaker 12 (01:32:54):
Five when.

Speaker 7 (01:33:08):
The relationship with you and miss Williams that tended to
get better after the marriage because Miss Williams was now
essentially your son's stepmom, and you had more communication now
and more contact with Miss Williams because this is before
the ex wives club, correct. Correct, Now you're just in
the co parenting club.

Speaker 2 (01:33:28):
Correct.

Speaker 7 (01:33:29):
And Denise is good to Stafford wasn't she Yes, she
looked after Yes, and isn't it true even after.

Speaker 18 (01:33:41):
Well, let me ask us.

Speaker 7 (01:33:42):
As part of your divorce agreement with mister Winchester back
in two thousand and three, was mister Winchester obligated to
provide private school tuition? Yes, sir, And as Stafford grew older,
he ended up attending the McClay School. Correct, Yes, you
went to high school?

Speaker 5 (01:33:59):
Play.

Speaker 7 (01:34:00):
Yes, how about the time he started high school at
McLay was about at the same time that miss Williams
and mister Winchester are separated.

Speaker 20 (01:34:08):
Correct, Yes, that's correct.

Speaker 7 (01:34:10):
Do you know in your review of the circumstances related
to your son whether or not Miss Williams actually paid
Stafford's tuition of McLay.

Speaker 19 (01:34:18):
That was what she had told me, But I never
you know, I don't. I wasn't on the financial part,
so I can't say who paid.

Speaker 5 (01:34:28):
But that is what she told me.

Speaker 7 (01:34:29):
Yes, And Stafford's tuition ended up being paid. Yes, And
this was at a time when she wasn't even in
a relation in a ongoing relationship with mister Winchester. She
was trying to get divorced from.

Speaker 5 (01:34:41):
Yes.

Speaker 7 (01:34:56):
Finally, when you were.

Speaker 18 (01:35:02):
When you were working with the.

Speaker 7 (01:35:04):
Department of Law Enforcement in February of twenty eighteen. That
was before you found out conclusively that your former husband
had chilled Mike Williams, wasn't it.

Speaker 19 (01:35:28):
May I just kind of present a timeline how I'm
remembering it, though I can't remember the verbatim dates.

Speaker 20 (01:35:37):
There was the kidnapping, and I started working with fd LY.

Speaker 19 (01:35:48):
Around the time that Brian was sentenced, like after his sentencing.

Speaker 20 (01:36:00):
So, yes, that's correct.

Speaker 19 (01:36:11):
I'm sorry it took me a minute, just but yes,
at the time that I recorded the phone calls, I
had known that Mike had been found.

Speaker 7 (01:36:24):
Well, let me try to back up a little bit,
because I'm asking more, not necessarily when Mike has found
I'm asking when you found out that Brian was the
man who in fact killed Mike Walliams.

Speaker 20 (01:36:38):
I found that out on the day that the press
conference happened. Because when.

Speaker 2 (01:36:47):
Should I keep going?

Speaker 20 (01:36:49):
I'm sorry, all right.

Speaker 7 (01:36:53):
I'm gonna try to lead it a little bit better, Okay,
help you out a little bit. There was a press
confer in December of twenty and seventeen. Mister Feuchs was
there along with that Fly agency. Do you recall that
press conference yes, sir. And at that press conference it
was announced that Mike williams remains had been to Scock
remember that, yes, sir, But he did not say that

(01:37:16):
press conference who killed Mike Williams?

Speaker 5 (01:37:19):
Did it?

Speaker 20 (01:37:21):
No, sir, You're right, I'm sorry.

Speaker 5 (01:37:25):
All right?

Speaker 7 (01:37:28):
After the press conference, you work with FDLA in February
of twenty and eighteen. Man, I'm gonna need you to
danger yes, from the port Worth place. Yes, did fd
LY during this time you were working with them? Ever
tell you that they knew that your former husband, Brian

(01:37:50):
Winchester had actually killed Mike Williams.

Speaker 19 (01:37:55):
Yes, they told me what his testimony was, what he
they told told me what he said he had done.

Speaker 7 (01:38:02):
And they told you that before you started working on
recording phone calls. Yes, nothing further on direct.

Speaker 18 (01:38:14):
Was Thomas.

Speaker 12 (01:38:15):
You would agree with me that affairs, especially when you're
married or meant the kept secret except fair.

Speaker 20 (01:38:23):
Yes, that's fair.

Speaker 12 (01:38:26):
You don't know that your then husband, Brian Winchester was
having an affair with Denise Williams because you never caught
them red handed, that's correct, But you had some pretty
high suspicions about it.

Speaker 4 (01:38:40):
Is that fair?

Speaker 20 (01:38:41):
Yes, sir?

Speaker 12 (01:38:43):
And we talked about the recorded calls and the number
of recordings. Of the number of recordings that you made,
does that change the context of the recording that was
played for the jury? The call that was played for

(01:39:05):
the jury? Does that change based on how many other
recordings that you made with mister No that was the recording,
the day to day calls where you just called and
you were talking to your friend about day to day life.
Do those change the content or the context of the

(01:39:25):
recording that the jury heard today?

Speaker 20 (01:39:28):
No, they don't.

Speaker 12 (01:39:32):
Whether you were working off from the script or not,
does that change the context or the content of the
call that the jury heard today?

Speaker 5 (01:39:46):
No?

Speaker 12 (01:39:47):
Nothing from them.

Speaker 18 (01:39:48):
Hey, jury, I have the question.

Speaker 7 (01:39:50):
Breaks your question down, please, we'll got a side park.

Speaker 12 (01:40:46):
The time as.

Speaker 18 (01:40:47):
We have a couple of follow up questions from the jury.

Speaker 22 (01:40:50):
The first one relates back to the date that mister
Mike Williams disappeared December sixteenth, two thousand.

Speaker 18 (01:41:01):
Do you have any recollection.

Speaker 22 (01:41:03):
From that time frame that stuck out to you concerning
either miss Williams or mister Winchester's behavior, interaction, anything specific
that stood out to you from that date or close

(01:41:25):
to that date, Any.

Speaker 19 (01:41:32):
Any behavior that I saw between the two of them
or individually or individually, I can't recall any specific action.

Speaker 20 (01:41:46):
And should I say just that day specifically.

Speaker 18 (01:41:51):
I think that's what the Jerys are asking about. Do
you do you do you remember what happened?

Speaker 20 (01:42:00):
I don't have any specific On that day. I did
not see Denise.

Speaker 19 (01:42:09):
I had a phone call from her telling me it
was around lunchtime. She was telling me she was looking
for him and.

Speaker 20 (01:42:19):
Brian that so I did not see her on that day. Brian,
he came.

Speaker 19 (01:42:28):
Late to our family Christmas party. He in my mind
in the moments on that day, I was wrapping Christmas
presents and the plan was that he would get back
from hunting and we would leave and go together to

(01:42:53):
my family Christmas party in Caro, Georgia. And around two
o'clock I just left with Stafford because we were supposed
to be there at three, and Brian showed up later.

Speaker 20 (01:43:08):
He showed up after we had open presence and everything
like that, and.

Speaker 12 (01:43:16):
It was.

Speaker 19 (01:43:18):
There was in that moment it just seemed as if
Mike had gone hunting and.

Speaker 20 (01:43:25):
Just hadn't come back.

Speaker 22 (01:43:27):
I didn't seemed so there wasn't anything unusual about mister
Winchester's behavior that you remember other than being late for
the party. Yes, sir, have you ever physically met Angelus Stafford?

Speaker 20 (01:43:42):
I believe so.

Speaker 19 (01:43:46):
I believe that we would have met at but and
I know who she is, but she was not someone
who as someone that you know, and back then, you know,

(01:44:06):
you didn't have Facebook and things like that where you
might recognize someone even though you didn't see them a lot.

Speaker 20 (01:44:15):
I feel that I would have met her. I know
that I must have met her, but we were just acquaintances.

Speaker 22 (01:44:25):
Did miss Williams appear emotionally distraught about the disappearance of
her husband we're talking about now, back in.

Speaker 18 (01:44:36):
Like two thousand and early two thousand and one.

Speaker 10 (01:44:46):
She did not.

Speaker 20 (01:44:51):
Seem distraught in those days ure Mike was gone. I
can remember saying to Brian.

Speaker 18 (01:45:09):
I think you've answered the question, Oh any fire, mister?

Speaker 4 (01:45:15):
What all right? You can step down

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