February 16, 2024 • 39 mins
"Jonathan Abernathy is a self-proclaimed loser... He’s behind on his debts, has no prospects, no friends, and no ambitions. But when a government loan forgiveness program offers him a literal dream job, he thinks he’s found his big break.
If he can appear to be competent at his new job, entering the minds of middle class workers while they sleep and removing the unsavory detritus of their waking lives from their unconscious, he might have a chance at a new life. As Abernathy finds his footing in this role, reality and morality begin to warp around him. Soon, the lines between life and work, love and hate, right and wrong, even sleep and consciousness, begin to blur."
Molly McGhee, author of Jonathan Abernathy You Are Kind, joins us to talk about how Capitalism is designed to keep worker's afraid, tired, and to always be thinking about work.
Note: This is a reupload of an episode originally aired 10/18/23. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/facepalm-america--5189985/support.
If he can appear to be competent at his new job, entering the minds of middle class workers while they sleep and removing the unsavory detritus of their waking lives from their unconscious, he might have a chance at a new life. As Abernathy finds his footing in this role, reality and morality begin to warp around him. Soon, the lines between life and work, love and hate, right and wrong, even sleep and consciousness, begin to blur."
Molly McGhee, author of Jonathan Abernathy You Are Kind, joins us to talk about how Capitalism is designed to keep worker's afraid, tired, and to always be thinking about work.
Note: This is a reupload of an episode originally aired 10/18/23. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/facepalm-america--5189985/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Face Palm America. I'm Babel Frocklin. Facepalmamerica dot com is where you can
go to get more information on theshow. I was listening to the Trill
Billy Workers Party podcast the other day, as I do, and we've had
Tom Sexton on the show before,and I was listening to an interview with
(00:35):
an author on this fascinating book,and I said to myself, I've got
to read this book. I've gotto have a conversation with the author because
this is really amazing to me.The name of the book is Jonathan Abernathy,
your kind, and the name ofthe author is Molly McGhee. You
are originally from Nashville, Molly,but you teach now at Columbia Unify.
(01:00):
Welcome to Face Paul America. Thankyou so much for being here, Thank
you for having me, and thankyou for listening to my episode with Yeah,
No, No. They are goodfolks and and we're on you know,
a similar wavelength. I think interms of the kinds of things that
interest us and pick out and it'sI swear, I swear it's not just
(01:22):
me cribbing their their excellent, excellentstyle. I wanted to start out by
saying that that, just in termsof my personal existence, I think one
of my proudest moments as a fatherhas been convincing my my college bound daughter
not to take out student loans.And I it's and it was in a
(01:49):
way, it's it's a difficult decisionbecause, like I think so many of
us, certainly myself, hang onto these aspects of the American dream.
So we cling so tightly to them. And and to have your your daughter,
you know, go to college andand go and in the same time
(02:14):
frame that that I did, Iyou know, I mean I was incredibly
like as a gen xer, someonewho who went to UH school. I
went to college in the mid nineties. My my I was very fortunate that
my dad was poor enough too,so that I could get a pelgrant and
and and I had everything just paidfor. But you know, we were
(02:38):
a little more successful in some ways, and so that wasn't an option.
And in spite of the fact thatthat you had a kind of like community
college to like you know, statecollege pipeline in Oregon, they they shell
out some money for that, althoughstill not nearly enough. It's it's it's
it's still this I mean you want, you want to say, Okay,
(03:00):
you've you've got the dream job,and you've got the dream house, and
you've got the dream degree. Andand when part of that is missing you,
you feel like and I think inso many instances in this book that
I've read so far, Jonathan Abernathyfeels like he's failed. He's he is
the one to blame that he hasn'tlived up to what the correct standards are.
(03:24):
And and I think part of whatyou're illustrating, you're illustrating on awful
lot of different things, is thatis just complete bullshit. Like people are
are are trapped in in a systemthat that bears down on every aspect,
every aspect of their lives, wakingand otherwise and right, and and tries
(03:46):
to extract everything that that it possiblycan from them. So the ways we
don't even know and ways we cancomprehend as well that aren't made visible to
us. Yeah, no, itreally is. You know, it occurred
to me like a little bit beforethe before we started talking, is that
there's a quote from Mark Fisher,Capitalism seamlessly occupies the horizons of the thinkable.
(04:13):
And I'm wondering if you think it'sdone the same thing to the horizons
of the dreamable. I definitely thinkso. I'm certainly trying to. It's
certainly trying to. I've read thisreally interesting essay after, you know,
having a conversation with the writer calledstudent debt has killed the plot and it's
(04:35):
the ways that debt has sort ofhave taken over narrative. And I think
capitalism has sort of done this too, right, Like it's omnipresent, it
is all consuming to a point wherewe can't exactly move forward in our lives.
(04:56):
Yeah, it's very, very difficultto escape. And we have these
like convenient little devices with us,like twenty four seven all the time and
keeping us tuned in and it's keepingus working, you know. I think
it's it's really interesting to me wheneverFrance protests because don't they have laws saying
(05:20):
they like can't receive emails after acertain time. I love that. I
absolutely love That's it's almost impossible toimagine in our society that they could be
the case. And it's it's amazing, like how what their standards for themselves
are and how that our standards forare as Americans, we just really think
(05:46):
work is the answer. We thinkif we can work hard enough, we
will solve our life. And it'sjust not true. And it's really sad
that it's not true, because weare a nation that's been built on the
myth of the individual. Yeah.Yeah, no, that's that's absolutely correct,
and it's it's been reinforced and taughtand and re reflected back to us
(06:14):
again and again in in so manydifferent obvious and subtle ways. I you
know, it'sies. It's very hardto separate the the idea behind motivations,
right. We don't always realize likehow deeply something has sort of burrowed into
(06:36):
us until it's a little too late. Yeah, down down to the language
that we speak, down to downto the very words that we use,
and the way that we construct oursentences and and and form our our thoughts.
I was, I was talking tosomeone in the last few days who
(06:56):
developed this very interesting guidebook about howpeople speak about war and the words that
both we and that people in themedia use when they're discussing war. And
you know, some of the mostobvious examples are collateral damage instead of civilian
(07:17):
death or or or or casualty insteadof a death, you know, a
killing or an injury, and youcould apply the same thing to to capitalism
and the way that we talk aboutthings like the way that we refer to,
you know, job creators, theway we talk about about the way
(07:41):
that we assume the economy, andand the way that people report about it
should be contained just within a stockmarket report, and and and the way
that that frames the discussion. Theyreally kind of have like captured the the
horizons of our reality, and toa large degree, I think the horizons
(08:05):
of our dreams. If they hadcaptured it entirely, I don't think you
ever would have written this book.So I think there is hope. But
they've done a pretty damn good job, haven't they. They've done a good
job, and they've made it feelseamless. They've made this constant feeling of
stress and overwork and hopelessness feel likeit is the default. It has happened
(08:31):
to us so gradually over the courseof generations that some of the realities of
working life that were considered must havein like the nineteen forties or nineteen fifties,
we don't have them at all.You know, we are always able
(08:52):
to be contacted, we are alwaysreachable. We don't have. We have
fewer vacationation days now the medieval peasantshad. Isn't that insane? That's to
me I think when I learned that, that's when it really really drove it
home for me, is that governmentsystems in medieval times had more holidays built
(09:16):
in so that the population could havemandated rest because they realized that the feudal
lords would work them to death ifthey didn't have mandated rest periods. Yeah.
And you know, there's all theselike think pieces about how we're moving
into sort of feudal capitalism, andto me that seems very obvious. You
(09:41):
have workers like or you have bosseslike Elon Munsk right, who's like,
hey, if you're not willing tosleep in my compound to work on x
dot com, you're fired. We'reletting you go. That's just insane.
It's like, that's another person's life. That's someone's life. Yeah, and
(10:01):
what does that do to yourself?Because like the reports that you hear about
Elon Musker that he sleeps a verysmall number of hours per night, and
and to me, at least interms of what he's projecting publicly, he
comes across as someone who is likesuffering some pretty severe mental health impact from
(10:22):
from living out what he is tryingto impose upon other people. Sleep deprivation,
I think is one of the numberone causes of madness. I am
an insomniac, and so you know, that's how this book was kind of
born for me, is I wasspending a lot of time sleepless and anxious,
(10:46):
and there's something that going for along period of time without sleep does
to the body that is just insane. I think we really sort of don't
understand and how important sleep is forour mental hygiene and just their personal health.
It's incredibly important we have We're stilllearning what it even does for us.
(11:09):
It's a great mystery. I can'ttell you how much more effective I
feel, you know, the morningafter a decent night's sleep, where I
can remember a few dreams than Ido when I know it's been it's been
a shoppy night sleep. It justit just makes an incredible world of difference.
(11:33):
And I guess, sort of ona metaphorical level, you need that
retreat into dreams and into you know, the space of the fantasy to refresh
yourself from the reality that exists aroundus. I mean that's probably true.
That's probably true of all ages,you know, let alone late stage capitalism,
but I think it's particularly true today. Lives are so confusing, and
(11:58):
all day long we are being bombardedby other people's perspective on our lives.
Sleep is really the only time whenwe can process what has happened to us
without sort of the biases of otherpeople encumbering that narrative. It's when we
sort of sort ourselves. It's whenwe figure out what it is that we're
(12:20):
doing, and it's when we processsort of the horrors that we don't know
how to verbalize. Yeah, weyou know, for us, I just
can't. I just feel like sleepis so important and it is so undervalued.
And I don't know about you,but going to bed, the biggest
thing that keeps me up is worryingabout work the next day. Yeah,
(12:43):
yeah, I'm worrying about all thethings I didn't do or could have done
differently. I still occasionally, youknow, I am good slu What twenty
five years past college and I still, from time to time at this point,
(13:07):
have you know, terror dreams aboutsomething that I forgot to turn in
in elementary school, high school,college, What have you. I mean
that that sticks with me to thisday. I don't know what it is.
Maybe maybe I'm just not taking thingsseriously enough, but because I've been
through enough things in my life whereyou think I should be having like dreams
(13:30):
about like the real difficulties that Ihave in my life, and I've had.
I've had a few, but Ihave far fewer of those than I
do of just like shit, Iforgot to turn something in or it's due
today. Like that that that stickswith me from from childhood and young adulthood.
I mean, when we're children,we aren't we aren't given control over
(13:52):
anything. We can't even live outour preferences for the most part. So
that maurs to me that those areyour visceral memories of helplessness. As you
get older, you kind of learn, you know, you you're at the
point in your life where maybe you'relike, yeah, this is bad,
but it's not gonna kill me,you know, like I used to hear.
I guess there's a certain amount ofperspective there. Yeah, yeah,
(14:16):
And my parents would say, likeit's bad, but I'm not dead yet,
And I just did not get itas a kid. I was like,
well, what do you mean this, this sucks ass Like this is
bad. But it's like they knewsomething I did not, which is that
time goes on and I think weas Americans have kind of forgotten that a
(14:39):
little bit. Well, you know, it's you're you're, you're right,
because because everything and everything that surroundsus in the media and all of our
immediacy like hooks us into the currentmoment. And it's difficult to to remember
that. But you know, justdrawing another example from my life, you
know, our our house burned downand a wildfire a few years ago,
(15:01):
and and you know, we're we'reall fine, we're all safe. And
when we especially in terms of likethe number of people who even to this
day in our community are still homeless, we were incredibly incredibly lucky in terms
of the way that it turned out. But I can compare the way that
it impacted my wife and I andand and to the way that it impacted
(15:24):
our daughter, who was home withus because of you know, COVID and
you know, the the community collegethat she was attending. You know,
I was not in such and becauseof because of COVID, and so so
she was home with us, andand that was the home that she grew
up in. Now for for formy wife and I, we had been
(15:46):
through a whole bunch of things,and a whole bunch of moves and and
you know, dealing with different medicalissues of different kinds over the course of
the years. And by the timewe got to when our house burned down,
having been you know, together forover twenty years, at that point
we kind of figured, oh JESU, this this sucks. But we did
this, and we did and wewent through the process and the thing it's
(16:07):
kind of like, Okay, awhole bunch of shit, A whole bunch
of shit has happened to us overthe years, and it's like, okay,
well we've almost in a way kindof been like training for this.
Okay, you know, I don'twant to say that anybody can ever be
prepared. And it strikes everybody differently. And it was a horrible thing that
I never would have like wished tohave happened to us, and it was.
(16:30):
It was a terrible thing that impactedlike thousands of people in our community.
But we were at a place whereat least psychologically we could deal with
it. Our daughter, like shelost your childhood home. She lost all
the things that were in her homeand it was much more, much more
difficult for her to deal with that. And I think it's interesting when you
(16:53):
say that that, you know,referring back to the recurring dreams that that
I have about you know, turningin schoolwork of various kinds, that as
children we have no control, becauseI think a lot of what you illustrate
in your book is that we,increasingly, regardless of age, have no
(17:15):
control and that we are being infantilizedby a system which demands more and more
control over our lives and gives usless and less in return. Right life,
Okay, well, I must saysomething dramatic, which is that the
scope of life is being there arepeople who are attempting to shrink it.
(17:37):
Yeah, so that all we thinkabout is work and life is an incredibly
unknowable, unpredictable journey. You know. I think we sometimes forget that,
like there is no set path forit. We always here like do this,
(17:59):
do this, do this, andwe think that is what it means
to be alive. But it's nothow it works. That is contrived,
That is a narrative that is sold. That's a very difficult thing to understand
as a young person, by theway, it is that everything is all
these possibilities are completely open to you, and that there's not a set path.
(18:22):
I don't think I've learned that fordecades into my adulthood. It's scary,
right, it's unknowable. It's hardto hold just how complex being alive
is and how much we are takingadvantage of in our ignorance by people with
more money and more power. Andyou get to a certain point in life
(18:45):
where you realize what's been going on, and you also realize at the same
time, well, there's nothing youcan really do about it. Yeah,
that feels bad. My sister andI joke all the time that we are
just two little peasants owing our potatogardens, trying to let like the Crusades
go through. It's like, okay, well, enjoy your geopolitical movements.
(19:14):
I really need this winter my potatoesalone. Yeah. Yeah, And that's
kind of it ultimately comes down tothose potatoes. I mean, I mean,
I mean, isn't that really likewe like in so many ways to
think that that the world of politics, in the world of power is something
(19:37):
not just beyond us but outside ofus. Right, and and and really
it's about like, are you gonnalet me live literally or or or not?
And what am I going to doto uh stop you from imposing upon
that? And how far am Iwilling to go? And how far are
you willing to go? Right?And you know, oh, it's interesting
(20:00):
because a lot of times policies thatare created or norms that are set up,
they're not necessarily done maliciously. They'rejust done out of ignorance for the
bottom fifty percent, because they it'sa lifestyle that like the people who are
in control of things just cannot comprehend. They often come from almost dynastic sort
(20:26):
of middle class or upper class wealthwhere it goes back to generations, and
so their conception of what it's like. You know, I like, growing
up, I have friends who werehomeless, you know what I mean.
And I remember saying that in anoffhand way, how I lost touch with
one of my friends, who youknow, was last I heard living in
(20:51):
a tent down in Texas, andwe've lost track of him. We don't
know where he is, but myfriends and I, like, are still
looking. And I remember bringing thisup with my friend, who you know,
is from the same area as me, but we were surrounded by a
bunch of sort of like my NewYork peers, you know, and it
(21:11):
was so unfathomable to them, andto me it was just like, yeah,
that's the tragedy of being alive.Is like you make one mistake and
then if you can't keep up withthe system, the system is not kind
it will it lets you go andyou become invisible. Like if you just
think about all the people we ignoreon the daily who are homeless, who
(21:34):
we just don't even We pretend likewe don't hear them, you know,
we don't see the mask for foodon the side of the road. Yeah,
because we don't have any food togive them, so we feel bad.
It's like that is I am convincedthat it is a system created that
way by design to keep us infear and to keep us working. But
(21:56):
maybe that's a little conspiracy theory ofme. Maybe that's a well, you
know, I think some people arethinking about it more than others, and
I think that that the people,uh, some people are able to see
what's going on while being you know, at the top of the order,
and some people are just maybe benefitingfrom it. Who are just like,
(22:19):
don't have any pressing need to see. I mean, if things are going
okay for you, If if you'vegot everything that you need and your life
is going all right, why doyou need to look beyond that? I
mean maybe like empathy isn't a naturalskill for you, or you have other
talents, it's just such a competent. It's a very kind way of putting
(22:41):
it. By the way, ifempathy isn't your natural skill, if if
if you if you have other talentsother than you know, being a being
a human being. But it's truethough, it's true, like people have
different areas. Like what you're sayingis literally true. I guess I just
like to think that everybody is engagedempathically, and it's not true, and
(23:04):
it's it's it's never really been true. And certainly I think that our ability
to learn empathy has been significantly hamperedby the system that we have right now,
I mean engaging people through social media, like it's so it shields you
(23:26):
from that, it protects you fromgaining experiences that tend you towards empathy.
You know, we sound like oldmen who are like, get off our
line, but I don't. Butit's I mean, God, the way
(23:52):
I describe it, it's it's morethan just like the technology. But there
are a lot of systems that protectus from barriers to connection. We are
very you know what I'll say,I don't want to spoil my my silly
little book, but what I'll sayis that I really think, Now I
don't want to sound too wooloo here, but I really think everything is a
(24:17):
little bit connected. And so whenyou have sort of you know this is
I'll tell you know what I'll dois I'll tell a story from my personal
life. When I was in growingup in Nashville, twenty twenty ten,
there was a really bad flood.And do you remember this, I no,
I don't. It was really gnarlyand it wiped out a good portion
(24:41):
of Nashville. Now, what happenedis a bunch of people became homeless and
they lost their jobs during that time. At the same time, property developers
came in and they completely bought outall of the areas that were affected by
the floods. Now, that's justthe sense of you know, bad luck,
(25:02):
that's just natural disaster. It's happenedto you. You know. I
remember my dad's property flooded like hell, and it was very scary. But
you can see the way all Nashvilletoday has changed to center in that one
moment when the property developers came inand took advantage of everybody at their lowest
(25:26):
because insurance agencies were just a littletoo slow and a little too cautious,
and people had to get money tolive, and so they sold out whole
neighborhoods. Now, when I sayeverything is connected, I mean that we
can look at the patterns of growthin Nashville and the way it has been
(25:47):
hemorrhaging locals and replacing them with sortof you know, new folks who can
maybe afford something a little more thanthe people who originally lived there could.
Yeah. Now it's interesting that yousay that, because I happen to be
talking to a former client of minewho is very wealthy, and they just
(26:11):
told me that they moved to theto the Nashville area. Yes, it's
insidious. Every time I go toa party, somebody's like, I'm buying
property in Nashville, I'm like,I wish you wouldn't, but congrats,
I guess. Well. You know, on the plus side, you get
fun people like Ben Shapiro moving toyour neighborhood, right, yeah, exactly,
And then they say things to youlike the school systems are better,
(26:32):
and you're like, I'm sorry,Tennessee is in the bottom ten of state
education. I don't know what you'retalking about. Yeah, but you know.
So it's when I say it's allconnected. I mean that when natural
disasters happen, right, and peopleare put out, they lose their work,
they lose their home, and thenthe system comes in and takes advantage
of that and profits off of that. Now, I think that's just wrong.
(26:56):
I think it's wrong that when somebody'slaid low, that that's when it's
a good bargain for other people.You know, I think it's really sad
that you can go and look atall houses that are being foreclosed on and
put in a bottom bid on somebody'slike darkest moment. Give me that just
(27:17):
feels that just feels so just sadthat our society is built like that,
and then it's built like that highdesign to sort of reward the people who
have the means to take advantage ofother people when they're at their lowest.
It just seems really Yeah, andyou know, it's funny. I was
(27:37):
talking with Tom Section about this acouple of weeks ago. The systems that
are designed or at least purportedly inplace in order to help people when they
are at their lowest, at theirmost things like FEMA are woefully deficient,
and yet the systems in in placethat allow folks to be taken advantage of
(28:04):
that those are are are free andclear. And I seem to recall that,
you know, when Naomi Klein hada few things to say about that
in her book Disaster Capitalism. Yeah, it's just the wild wild West out
here. You know. It's reallylike if you're in the bottom. If
you're in the bottom, guess what. The law doesn't care. You know,
(28:25):
it doesn't. You are playing bya different set of rules, right,
and the people at the top.And it's just very depressingly apparent to
me. And so I'm sort of, you know, I don't have any
answers, and I know that Iprobably sound like very fresh faced, but
(28:45):
sort of trying to grapple with allthose things. Is the onus which with
which this book sort of emerged.I mean, I think in a way
that you do have some solution,at least as far as I've read thus
far in that there are still dreams, then that we do have that,
and so far, even though thosealso are being pressed, we do have
(29:10):
ownership of that, and we haveways still at our command to imagine and
therefore the possibility to reshape the futureand the way that we organize our lives
and ourselves. I you know,I've been quoting mister David Graeber a lot
on my little press market for thisbook. I love him, And there's
(29:33):
a quote of his that is basicallylike the biggest secret in the world.
And now I'm paraphrasing. I'm notat you know, not as loquacious as
him, but the biggest secret inthe world is that we everything that surrounds
us And I just think that's reallyI think that's really true. Every single
element of society has been made bysomeone and is something that we pass down
(30:03):
and teach. Now I'm not sayingthat is intentional. You know. It's
the same way when you're raising atoddler and they come home one day cursing
and you're like, what the helldid you learn that? And then it's
like, oh from you, youknow, yeah, yeah, the the
the I learned it? From you, Dad. Theory of sociology, I
(30:23):
think is is a very good onebecause that's kind I mean, we just
got it. We were I mean, human beings are are great copy machines.
I mean that's great. We goaround doing that like all the time,
especially when we're young. But Imean that's that's our go to.
Like, like when we have todo something that we've never done before,
(30:45):
the first thing we do is like, how did somebody else do it?
I mean that's that's just like howwe figure the world out. And if
we have a bad or non functional, or or abusive template which we're adopting
for ourselves, then everything that wedo is going to carry those same characteristics
(31:07):
with it absolutely, and it's hardto know what to do sometimes it's hard
to navigate it. But for me, just sort of becoming aware yeah,
has been helpful and then sort oftrying to figure out, well, what
does that awareness mean? Where dowe owe ourselves grace? You know?
(31:30):
Where do we owe ourselves understanding?How can we be better? Sure?
But at what point you just needto accept our circumstances and let it go.
Yeah, I think so much asoutside of our control and understanding,
it could be really maddening to sortof contemplate. Yeah, yeah, we
can't control everything, but we havethe ability to affect and guide, you
(31:57):
know, the environment around us.And the greater degree to which we engage
in that process, you know,the better for us. You Know,
my wife tells me something often beforewe go to bed, which is,
you know, dream, dream abouthow you would like things, and you
know, dream about it in detail, and think about the way that you
(32:21):
would like things to to be.And and and she's like, in the
last year or so, she's she'sshe's told me that a lot. And
I think that's that's a critical thing, whether it's literally before you're going to
sleep, or just like take time. God, if you have the time
or the moments that you do haveto think about how do you want things
(32:44):
to be, how do you wantyour life to be? How do you
want the world around you to look? And I think that is the degree
that we can get that time toto to to the degree that we have
it, It's it's important to claimand it's an important process to engage in.
(33:05):
I tell my students all the timewhat rich people call thinking, for
people call daydreaming. Yeah, youneed to carve out time for yourself to
day dream, because daydreaming is reallywhen you break free of sort of the
constraints of your circumstances and you canconceive of what's possible. Yeah, yeah,
(33:31):
And and in in focusing on theworld in which kind of all things
are possible, even though again increasinglythey're being coached upon. I think that
you've made an important, you know, statement in this book, and I
(33:52):
really thank you for for making that, staking that claim, writing this book
and putting it out there into theworld, because I think the way in
which you do it not only sayssomething about the particular time in which we
live and the particular you know,stratum of late capitalism in which we're immersed,
(34:17):
but also about how it's important toeither dream or daydream in order to
change what you can around you.And if enough people do that, you
know, we'll push things in abetter direction that makes life good or at
least improved for for all of us. So thank you for that. Thank
(34:40):
you for for Jonathan Abernathy, youor kind There's so many other things that
we could say about the plot ofthis Maybe we can revisit it, like
when I've actually you know, finishedfinished the entire book, but I'm really
enjoying it. As I as Isaid before we went on, there are
I read books so slow and sometimesI'll get, you know, twenty pages
(35:02):
and two overk and said, Idon't know if I ever this. I'm
I'm I'm gobbling it up at leastby the standards that I read books,
which is which is is plotting meSo Mollie m to read a book.
Thank you, thank you, AndI you know, and as an auditory
person, as someone who is youknow, listened to you know and been
(35:25):
very focused on radio and now podcastingfor for a long time, I often
do it that way. But thisis this is one of the ones that
I physically have and I'm very gladto have. Molly McGee, thank you
so much. Thank you again.The book is Jonathan Abernathy. You are
kind. Check this out. Itis it is a really important book.
(35:47):
It is it is unique, itis imaginative, it is like critical and
thoughtful, and thank you for producingit and thank you for being with us
today. Faceball America. Up next, I want to talk to you about
workplace inequality. I'm Beowulf Rocklin.This is Face Palm America. Back in
(36:10):
a moment Face Palm, America.I'm Beowulf Rockland, workplace inequality. How
does the way we work perpetuate racism? One of the things that Molly McGee
(36:38):
and I were just talking about ishow the structures that we carry with us
and build in human society and thatwe have inside of us as human beings
perpetuate things that aren't necessarily very goodfor us in many ways and can be
(36:58):
very harmful to us. That canbe sexism, that can be homophobia,
that can be racism, it canbe classism. And it's important to pay
attention to things that we think isnatural, that are have kind of formed
(37:21):
the room of our minds and couldgo down to the level of just the
very words that we use. Andthose things are very difficult to change because
they seem so personal to us.But we have to look at them nevertheless,
because sometimes it's necessary to go tothat level to dig out the things
(37:44):
that truly impede us as human beings. And so in the next few days
we're going to be talking to AdiaHarvey Wingfield. She's written a book called
Gray Areas, How the way wework perpetuates racism and what we can do
(38:07):
to fix it, and I urgeyou to join us in the next few
days to listen to that. Ithink it's going to be a fascinating conversation.
If you would have enjoyed this episode, I would like you to post
a link to it in your socialmedia wherever you are on social media,
(38:28):
so that other folks can hear aboutit. That helps us grow this show.
It helps us to keep doing whatwe're doing. I want to thank
the producers of this program, AceElson and Rosabel Heine. They do a
fantastic job. And until next time, enjoy the day.
Face Palm America. I'm Babel Frocklin. Facepalmamerica dot com is where you can
go to get more information on theshow. I was listening to the Trill
Billy Workers Party podcast the other day, as I do, and we've had
Tom Sexton on the show before,and I was listening to an interview with
(00:35):
an author on this fascinating book,and I said to myself, I've got
to read this book. I've gotto have a conversation with the author because
this is really amazing to me.The name of the book is Jonathan Abernathy,
your kind, and the name ofthe author is Molly McGhee. You
are originally from Nashville, Molly,but you teach now at Columbia Unify.
(01:00):
Welcome to Face Paul America. Thankyou so much for being here, Thank
you for having me, and thankyou for listening to my episode with Yeah,
No, No. They are goodfolks and and we're on you know,
a similar wavelength. I think interms of the kinds of things that
interest us and pick out and it'sI swear, I swear it's not just
(01:22):
me cribbing their their excellent, excellentstyle. I wanted to start out by
saying that that, just in termsof my personal existence, I think one
of my proudest moments as a fatherhas been convincing my my college bound daughter
not to take out student loans.And I it's and it was in a
(01:49):
way, it's it's a difficult decisionbecause, like I think so many of
us, certainly myself, hang onto these aspects of the American dream.
So we cling so tightly to them. And and to have your your daughter,
you know, go to college andand go and in the same time
(02:14):
frame that that I did, Iyou know, I mean I was incredibly
like as a gen xer, someonewho who went to UH school. I
went to college in the mid nineties. My my I was very fortunate that
my dad was poor enough too,so that I could get a pelgrant and
and and I had everything just paidfor. But you know, we were
(02:38):
a little more successful in some ways, and so that wasn't an option.
And in spite of the fact thatthat you had a kind of like community
college to like you know, statecollege pipeline in Oregon, they they shell
out some money for that, althoughstill not nearly enough. It's it's it's
it's still this I mean you want, you want to say, Okay,
(03:00):
you've you've got the dream job,and you've got the dream house, and
you've got the dream degree. Andand when part of that is missing you,
you feel like and I think inso many instances in this book that
I've read so far, Jonathan Abernathyfeels like he's failed. He's he is
the one to blame that he hasn'tlived up to what the correct standards are.
(03:24):
And and I think part of whatyou're illustrating, you're illustrating on awful
lot of different things, is thatis just complete bullshit. Like people are
are are trapped in in a systemthat that bears down on every aspect,
every aspect of their lives, wakingand otherwise and right, and and tries
(03:46):
to extract everything that that it possiblycan from them. So the ways we
don't even know and ways we cancomprehend as well that aren't made visible to
us. Yeah, no, itreally is. You know, it occurred
to me like a little bit beforethe before we started talking, is that
there's a quote from Mark Fisher,Capitalism seamlessly occupies the horizons of the thinkable.
(04:13):
And I'm wondering if you think it'sdone the same thing to the horizons
of the dreamable. I definitely thinkso. I'm certainly trying to. It's
certainly trying to. I've read thisreally interesting essay after, you know,
having a conversation with the writer calledstudent debt has killed the plot and it's
(04:35):
the ways that debt has sort ofhave taken over narrative. And I think
capitalism has sort of done this too, right, Like it's omnipresent, it
is all consuming to a point wherewe can't exactly move forward in our lives.
(04:56):
Yeah, it's very, very difficultto escape. And we have these
like convenient little devices with us,like twenty four seven all the time and
keeping us tuned in and it's keepingus working, you know. I think
it's it's really interesting to me wheneverFrance protests because don't they have laws saying
(05:20):
they like can't receive emails after acertain time. I love that. I
absolutely love That's it's almost impossible toimagine in our society that they could be
the case. And it's it's amazing, like how what their standards for themselves
are and how that our standards forare as Americans, we just really think
(05:46):
work is the answer. We thinkif we can work hard enough, we
will solve our life. And it'sjust not true. And it's really sad
that it's not true, because weare a nation that's been built on the
myth of the individual. Yeah.Yeah, no, that's that's absolutely correct,
and it's it's been reinforced and taughtand and re reflected back to us
(06:14):
again and again in in so manydifferent obvious and subtle ways. I you
know, it'sies. It's very hardto separate the the idea behind motivations,
right. We don't always realize likehow deeply something has sort of burrowed into
(06:36):
us until it's a little too late. Yeah, down down to the language
that we speak, down to downto the very words that we use,
and the way that we construct oursentences and and and form our our thoughts.
I was, I was talking tosomeone in the last few days who
(06:56):
developed this very interesting guidebook about howpeople speak about war and the words that
both we and that people in themedia use when they're discussing war. And
you know, some of the mostobvious examples are collateral damage instead of civilian
(07:17):
death or or or or casualty insteadof a death, you know, a
killing or an injury, and youcould apply the same thing to to capitalism
and the way that we talk aboutthings like the way that we refer to,
you know, job creators, theway we talk about about the way
(07:41):
that we assume the economy, andand the way that people report about it
should be contained just within a stockmarket report, and and and the way
that that frames the discussion. Theyreally kind of have like captured the the
horizons of our reality, and toa large degree, I think the horizons
(08:05):
of our dreams. If they hadcaptured it entirely, I don't think you
ever would have written this book.So I think there is hope. But
they've done a pretty damn good job, haven't they. They've done a good
job, and they've made it feelseamless. They've made this constant feeling of
stress and overwork and hopelessness feel likeit is the default. It has happened
(08:31):
to us so gradually over the courseof generations that some of the realities of
working life that were considered must havein like the nineteen forties or nineteen fifties,
we don't have them at all.You know, we are always able
(08:52):
to be contacted, we are alwaysreachable. We don't have. We have
fewer vacationation days now the medieval peasantshad. Isn't that insane? That's to
me I think when I learned that, that's when it really really drove it
home for me, is that governmentsystems in medieval times had more holidays built
(09:16):
in so that the population could havemandated rest because they realized that the feudal
lords would work them to death ifthey didn't have mandated rest periods. Yeah.
And you know, there's all theselike think pieces about how we're moving
into sort of feudal capitalism, andto me that seems very obvious. You
(09:41):
have workers like or you have bosseslike Elon Munsk right, who's like,
hey, if you're not willing tosleep in my compound to work on x
dot com, you're fired. We'reletting you go. That's just insane.
It's like, that's another person's life. That's someone's life. Yeah, and
(10:01):
what does that do to yourself?Because like the reports that you hear about
Elon Musker that he sleeps a verysmall number of hours per night, and
and to me, at least interms of what he's projecting publicly, he
comes across as someone who is likesuffering some pretty severe mental health impact from
(10:22):
from living out what he is tryingto impose upon other people. Sleep deprivation,
I think is one of the numberone causes of madness. I am
an insomniac, and so you know, that's how this book was kind of
born for me, is I wasspending a lot of time sleepless and anxious,
(10:46):
and there's something that going for along period of time without sleep does
to the body that is just insane. I think we really sort of don't
understand and how important sleep is forour mental hygiene and just their personal health.
It's incredibly important we have We're stilllearning what it even does for us.
(11:09):
It's a great mystery. I can'ttell you how much more effective I
feel, you know, the morningafter a decent night's sleep, where I
can remember a few dreams than Ido when I know it's been it's been
a shoppy night sleep. It justit just makes an incredible world of difference.
(11:33):
And I guess, sort of ona metaphorical level, you need that
retreat into dreams and into you know, the space of the fantasy to refresh
yourself from the reality that exists aroundus. I mean that's probably true.
That's probably true of all ages,you know, let alone late stage capitalism,
but I think it's particularly true today. Lives are so confusing, and
(11:58):
all day long we are being bombardedby other people's perspective on our lives.
Sleep is really the only time whenwe can process what has happened to us
without sort of the biases of otherpeople encumbering that narrative. It's when we
sort of sort ourselves. It's whenwe figure out what it is that we're
(12:20):
doing, and it's when we processsort of the horrors that we don't know
how to verbalize. Yeah, weyou know, for us, I just
can't. I just feel like sleepis so important and it is so undervalued.
And I don't know about you,but going to bed, the biggest
thing that keeps me up is worryingabout work the next day. Yeah,
(12:43):
yeah, I'm worrying about all thethings I didn't do or could have done
differently. I still occasionally, youknow, I am good slu What twenty
five years past college and I still, from time to time at this point,
(13:07):
have you know, terror dreams aboutsomething that I forgot to turn in
in elementary school, high school,college, What have you. I mean
that that sticks with me to thisday. I don't know what it is.
Maybe maybe I'm just not taking thingsseriously enough, but because I've been
through enough things in my life whereyou think I should be having like dreams
(13:30):
about like the real difficulties that Ihave in my life, and I've had.
I've had a few, but Ihave far fewer of those than I
do of just like shit, Iforgot to turn something in or it's due
today. Like that that that stickswith me from from childhood and young adulthood.
I mean, when we're children,we aren't we aren't given control over
(13:52):
anything. We can't even live outour preferences for the most part. So
that maurs to me that those areyour visceral memories of helplessness. As you
get older, you kind of learn, you know, you you're at the
point in your life where maybe you'relike, yeah, this is bad,
but it's not gonna kill me,you know, like I used to hear.
I guess there's a certain amount ofperspective there. Yeah, yeah,
(14:16):
And my parents would say, likeit's bad, but I'm not dead yet,
And I just did not get itas a kid. I was like,
well, what do you mean this, this sucks ass Like this is
bad. But it's like they knewsomething I did not, which is that
time goes on and I think weas Americans have kind of forgotten that a
(14:39):
little bit. Well, you know, it's you're you're, you're right,
because because everything and everything that surroundsus in the media and all of our
immediacy like hooks us into the currentmoment. And it's difficult to to remember
that. But you know, justdrawing another example from my life, you
know, our our house burned downand a wildfire a few years ago,
(15:01):
and and you know, we're we'reall fine, we're all safe. And
when we especially in terms of likethe number of people who even to this
day in our community are still homeless, we were incredibly incredibly lucky in terms
of the way that it turned out. But I can compare the way that
it impacted my wife and I andand and to the way that it impacted
(15:24):
our daughter, who was home withus because of you know, COVID and
you know, the the community collegethat she was attending. You know,
I was not in such and becauseof because of COVID, and so so
she was home with us, andand that was the home that she grew
up in. Now for for formy wife and I, we had been
(15:46):
through a whole bunch of things,and a whole bunch of moves and and
you know, dealing with different medicalissues of different kinds over the course of
the years. And by the timewe got to when our house burned down,
having been you know, together forover twenty years, at that point
we kind of figured, oh JESU, this this sucks. But we did
this, and we did and wewent through the process and the thing it's
(16:07):
kind of like, Okay, awhole bunch of shit, A whole bunch
of shit has happened to us overthe years, and it's like, okay,
well we've almost in a way kindof been like training for this.
Okay, you know, I don'twant to say that anybody can ever be
prepared. And it strikes everybody differently. And it was a horrible thing that
I never would have like wished tohave happened to us, and it was.
(16:30):
It was a terrible thing that impactedlike thousands of people in our community.
But we were at a place whereat least psychologically we could deal with
it. Our daughter, like shelost your childhood home. She lost all
the things that were in her homeand it was much more, much more
difficult for her to deal with that. And I think it's interesting when you
(16:53):
say that that, you know,referring back to the recurring dreams that that
I have about you know, turningin schoolwork of various kinds, that as
children we have no control, becauseI think a lot of what you illustrate
in your book is that we,increasingly, regardless of age, have no
(17:15):
control and that we are being infantilizedby a system which demands more and more
control over our lives and gives usless and less in return. Right life,
Okay, well, I must saysomething dramatic, which is that the
scope of life is being there arepeople who are attempting to shrink it.
(17:37):
Yeah, so that all we thinkabout is work and life is an incredibly
unknowable, unpredictable journey. You know. I think we sometimes forget that,
like there is no set path forit. We always here like do this,
(17:59):
do this, do this, andwe think that is what it means
to be alive. But it's nothow it works. That is contrived,
That is a narrative that is sold. That's a very difficult thing to understand
as a young person, by theway, it is that everything is all
these possibilities are completely open to you, and that there's not a set path.
(18:22):
I don't think I've learned that fordecades into my adulthood. It's scary,
right, it's unknowable. It's hardto hold just how complex being alive
is and how much we are takingadvantage of in our ignorance by people with
more money and more power. Andyou get to a certain point in life
(18:45):
where you realize what's been going on, and you also realize at the same
time, well, there's nothing youcan really do about it. Yeah,
that feels bad. My sister andI joke all the time that we are
just two little peasants owing our potatogardens, trying to let like the Crusades
go through. It's like, okay, well, enjoy your geopolitical movements.
(19:14):
I really need this winter my potatoesalone. Yeah. Yeah, And that's
kind of it ultimately comes down tothose potatoes. I mean, I mean,
I mean, isn't that really likewe like in so many ways to
think that that the world of politics, in the world of power is something
(19:37):
not just beyond us but outside ofus. Right, and and and really
it's about like, are you gonnalet me live literally or or or not?
And what am I going to doto uh stop you from imposing upon
that? And how far am Iwilling to go? And how far are
you willing to go? Right?And you know, oh, it's interesting
(20:00):
because a lot of times policies thatare created or norms that are set up,
they're not necessarily done maliciously. They'rejust done out of ignorance for the
bottom fifty percent, because they it'sa lifestyle that like the people who are
in control of things just cannot comprehend. They often come from almost dynastic sort
(20:26):
of middle class or upper class wealthwhere it goes back to generations, and
so their conception of what it's like. You know, I like, growing
up, I have friends who werehomeless, you know what I mean.
And I remember saying that in anoffhand way, how I lost touch with
one of my friends, who youknow, was last I heard living in
(20:51):
a tent down in Texas, andwe've lost track of him. We don't
know where he is, but myfriends and I, like, are still
looking. And I remember bringing thisup with my friend, who you know,
is from the same area as me, but we were surrounded by a
bunch of sort of like my NewYork peers, you know, and it
(21:11):
was so unfathomable to them, andto me it was just like, yeah,
that's the tragedy of being alive.Is like you make one mistake and
then if you can't keep up withthe system, the system is not kind
it will it lets you go andyou become invisible. Like if you just
think about all the people we ignoreon the daily who are homeless, who
(21:34):
we just don't even We pretend likewe don't hear them, you know,
we don't see the mask for foodon the side of the road. Yeah,
because we don't have any food togive them, so we feel bad.
It's like that is I am convincedthat it is a system created that
way by design to keep us infear and to keep us working. But
(21:56):
maybe that's a little conspiracy theory ofme. Maybe that's a well, you
know, I think some people arethinking about it more than others, and
I think that that the people,uh, some people are able to see
what's going on while being you know, at the top of the order,
and some people are just maybe benefitingfrom it. Who are just like,
(22:19):
don't have any pressing need to see. I mean, if things are going
okay for you, If if you'vegot everything that you need and your life
is going all right, why doyou need to look beyond that? I
mean maybe like empathy isn't a naturalskill for you, or you have other
talents, it's just such a competent. It's a very kind way of putting
(22:41):
it. By the way, ifempathy isn't your natural skill, if if
if you if you have other talentsother than you know, being a being
a human being. But it's truethough, it's true, like people have
different areas. Like what you're sayingis literally true. I guess I just
like to think that everybody is engagedempathically, and it's not true, and
(23:04):
it's it's it's never really been true. And certainly I think that our ability
to learn empathy has been significantly hamperedby the system that we have right now,
I mean engaging people through social media, like it's so it shields you
(23:26):
from that, it protects you fromgaining experiences that tend you towards empathy.
You know, we sound like oldmen who are like, get off our
line, but I don't. Butit's I mean, God, the way
(23:52):
I describe it, it's it's morethan just like the technology. But there
are a lot of systems that protectus from barriers to connection. We are
very you know what I'll say,I don't want to spoil my my silly
little book, but what I'll sayis that I really think, Now I
don't want to sound too wooloo here, but I really think everything is a
(24:17):
little bit connected. And so whenyou have sort of you know this is
I'll tell you know what I'll dois I'll tell a story from my personal
life. When I was in growingup in Nashville, twenty twenty ten,
there was a really bad flood.And do you remember this, I no,
I don't. It was really gnarlyand it wiped out a good portion
(24:41):
of Nashville. Now, what happenedis a bunch of people became homeless and
they lost their jobs during that time. At the same time, property developers
came in and they completely bought outall of the areas that were affected by
the floods. Now, that's justthe sense of you know, bad luck,
(25:02):
that's just natural disaster. It's happenedto you. You know. I
remember my dad's property flooded like hell, and it was very scary. But
you can see the way all Nashvilletoday has changed to center in that one
moment when the property developers came inand took advantage of everybody at their lowest
(25:26):
because insurance agencies were just a littletoo slow and a little too cautious,
and people had to get money tolive, and so they sold out whole
neighborhoods. Now, when I sayeverything is connected, I mean that we
can look at the patterns of growthin Nashville and the way it has been
(25:47):
hemorrhaging locals and replacing them with sortof you know, new folks who can
maybe afford something a little more thanthe people who originally lived there could.
Yeah. Now it's interesting that yousay that, because I happen to be
talking to a former client of minewho is very wealthy, and they just
(26:11):
told me that they moved to theto the Nashville area. Yes, it's
insidious. Every time I go toa party, somebody's like, I'm buying
property in Nashville, I'm like,I wish you wouldn't, but congrats,
I guess. Well. You know, on the plus side, you get
fun people like Ben Shapiro moving toyour neighborhood, right, yeah, exactly,
And then they say things to youlike the school systems are better,
(26:32):
and you're like, I'm sorry,Tennessee is in the bottom ten of state
education. I don't know what you'retalking about. Yeah, but you know.
So it's when I say it's allconnected. I mean that when natural
disasters happen, right, and peopleare put out, they lose their work,
they lose their home, and thenthe system comes in and takes advantage
of that and profits off of that. Now, I think that's just wrong.
(26:56):
I think it's wrong that when somebody'slaid low, that that's when it's
a good bargain for other people.You know, I think it's really sad
that you can go and look atall houses that are being foreclosed on and
put in a bottom bid on somebody'slike darkest moment. Give me that just
(27:17):
feels that just feels so just sadthat our society is built like that,
and then it's built like that highdesign to sort of reward the people who
have the means to take advantage ofother people when they're at their lowest.
It just seems really Yeah, andyou know, it's funny. I was
(27:37):
talking with Tom Section about this acouple of weeks ago. The systems that
are designed or at least purportedly inplace in order to help people when they
are at their lowest, at theirmost things like FEMA are woefully deficient,
and yet the systems in in placethat allow folks to be taken advantage of
(28:04):
that those are are are free andclear. And I seem to recall that,
you know, when Naomi Klein hada few things to say about that
in her book Disaster Capitalism. Yeah, it's just the wild wild West out
here. You know. It's reallylike if you're in the bottom. If
you're in the bottom, guess what. The law doesn't care. You know,
(28:25):
it doesn't. You are playing bya different set of rules, right,
and the people at the top.And it's just very depressingly apparent to
me. And so I'm sort of, you know, I don't have any
answers, and I know that Iprobably sound like very fresh faced, but
(28:45):
sort of trying to grapple with allthose things. Is the onus which with
which this book sort of emerged.I mean, I think in a way
that you do have some solution,at least as far as I've read thus
far in that there are still dreams, then that we do have that,
and so far, even though thosealso are being pressed, we do have
(29:10):
ownership of that, and we haveways still at our command to imagine and
therefore the possibility to reshape the futureand the way that we organize our lives
and ourselves. I you know,I've been quoting mister David Graeber a lot
on my little press market for thisbook. I love him, And there's
(29:33):
a quote of his that is basicallylike the biggest secret in the world.
And now I'm paraphrasing. I'm notat you know, not as loquacious as
him, but the biggest secret inthe world is that we everything that surrounds
us And I just think that's reallyI think that's really true. Every single
element of society has been made bysomeone and is something that we pass down
(30:03):
and teach. Now I'm not sayingthat is intentional. You know. It's
the same way when you're raising atoddler and they come home one day cursing
and you're like, what the helldid you learn that? And then it's
like, oh from you, youknow, yeah, yeah, the the
the I learned it? From you, Dad. Theory of sociology, I
(30:23):
think is is a very good onebecause that's kind I mean, we just
got it. We were I mean, human beings are are great copy machines.
I mean that's great. We goaround doing that like all the time,
especially when we're young. But Imean that's that's our go to.
Like, like when we have todo something that we've never done before,
(30:45):
the first thing we do is like, how did somebody else do it?
I mean that's that's just like howwe figure the world out. And if
we have a bad or non functional, or or abusive template which we're adopting
for ourselves, then everything that wedo is going to carry those same characteristics
(31:07):
with it absolutely, and it's hardto know what to do sometimes it's hard
to navigate it. But for me, just sort of becoming aware yeah,
has been helpful and then sort oftrying to figure out, well, what
does that awareness mean? Where dowe owe ourselves grace? You know?
(31:30):
Where do we owe ourselves understanding?How can we be better? Sure?
But at what point you just needto accept our circumstances and let it go.
Yeah, I think so much asoutside of our control and understanding,
it could be really maddening to sortof contemplate. Yeah, yeah, we
can't control everything, but we havethe ability to affect and guide, you
(31:57):
know, the environment around us.And the greater degree to which we engage
in that process, you know,the better for us. You Know,
my wife tells me something often beforewe go to bed, which is,
you know, dream, dream abouthow you would like things, and you
know, dream about it in detail, and think about the way that you
(32:21):
would like things to to be.And and and she's like, in the
last year or so, she's she'sshe's told me that a lot. And
I think that's that's a critical thing, whether it's literally before you're going to
sleep, or just like take time. God, if you have the time
or the moments that you do haveto think about how do you want things
(32:44):
to be, how do you wantyour life to be? How do you
want the world around you to look? And I think that is the degree
that we can get that time toto to to the degree that we have
it, It's it's important to claimand it's an important process to engage in.
(33:05):
I tell my students all the timewhat rich people call thinking, for
people call daydreaming. Yeah, youneed to carve out time for yourself to
day dream, because daydreaming is reallywhen you break free of sort of the
constraints of your circumstances and you canconceive of what's possible. Yeah, yeah,
(33:31):
And and in in focusing on theworld in which kind of all things
are possible, even though again increasinglythey're being coached upon. I think that
you've made an important, you know, statement in this book, and I
(33:52):
really thank you for for making that, staking that claim, writing this book
and putting it out there into theworld, because I think the way in
which you do it not only sayssomething about the particular time in which we
live and the particular you know,stratum of late capitalism in which we're immersed,
(34:17):
but also about how it's important toeither dream or daydream in order to
change what you can around you.And if enough people do that, you
know, we'll push things in abetter direction that makes life good or at
least improved for for all of us. So thank you for that. Thank
(34:40):
you for for Jonathan Abernathy, youor kind There's so many other things that
we could say about the plot ofthis Maybe we can revisit it, like
when I've actually you know, finishedfinished the entire book, but I'm really
enjoying it. As I as Isaid before we went on, there are
I read books so slow and sometimesI'll get, you know, twenty pages
(35:02):
and two overk and said, Idon't know if I ever this. I'm
I'm I'm gobbling it up at leastby the standards that I read books,
which is which is is plotting meSo Mollie m to read a book.
Thank you, thank you, AndI you know, and as an auditory
person, as someone who is youknow, listened to you know and been
(35:25):
very focused on radio and now podcastingfor for a long time, I often
do it that way. But thisis this is one of the ones that
I physically have and I'm very gladto have. Molly McGee, thank you
so much. Thank you again.The book is Jonathan Abernathy. You are
kind. Check this out. Itis it is a really important book.
(35:47):
It is it is unique, itis imaginative, it is like critical and
thoughtful, and thank you for producingit and thank you for being with us
today. Faceball America. Up next, I want to talk to you about
workplace inequality. I'm Beowulf Rocklin.This is Face Palm America. Back in
(36:10):
a moment Face Palm, America.I'm Beowulf Rockland, workplace inequality. How
does the way we work perpetuate racism? One of the things that Molly McGee
(36:38):
and I were just talking about ishow the structures that we carry with us
and build in human society and thatwe have inside of us as human beings
perpetuate things that aren't necessarily very goodfor us in many ways and can be
(36:58):
very harmful to us. That canbe sexism, that can be homophobia,
that can be racism, it canbe classism. And it's important to pay
attention to things that we think isnatural, that are have kind of formed
(37:21):
the room of our minds and couldgo down to the level of just the
very words that we use. Andthose things are very difficult to change because
they seem so personal to us.But we have to look at them nevertheless,
because sometimes it's necessary to go tothat level to dig out the things
(37:44):
that truly impede us as human beings. And so in the next few days
we're going to be talking to AdiaHarvey Wingfield. She's written a book called
Gray Areas, How the way wework perpetuates racism and what we can do
(38:07):
to fix it, and I urgeyou to join us in the next few
days to listen to that. Ithink it's going to be a fascinating conversation.
If you would have enjoyed this episode, I would like you to post
a link to it in your socialmedia wherever you are on social media,
(38:28):
so that other folks can hear aboutit. That helps us grow this show.
It helps us to keep doing whatwe're doing. I want to thank
the producers of this program, AceElson and Rosabel Heine. They do a
fantastic job. And until next time, enjoy the day.
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