Outgrowing Porn: Healing Hearts and Redeeming Sexuality with Drew Boa

✨ Episode Summary
 In this groundbreaking episode of the Faithful Fitness Podcast, Coach Alex sits down with Drew Boa—author of Outgrow Porn and founder of Husband Material Ministries—to tackle one of the most hidden yet destructive struggles in the Church today: pornography.

Drew combines neuroscience, psychology, and biblical truth to offer a message of hope far beyond “try harder” strategies and purity culture. Together, Alex and Drew explore how porn is not simply a moral issue but a sexualized solution to unprocessed pain—and how healing, maturity, and God’s grace provide the true path to freedom.

This episode will challenge you, encourage you, and equip you (or someone you love) to walk in freedom, heal from shame, and redeem sexuality under the Lordship of Christ.

📌 Main Discussion Themes
-Why fitness, sexuality, and stewardship are inseparably linked
-The difference between arousal and desire—and why it matters
-Porn as a pacifier: a counterfeit solution to unprocessed pain
-How shame becomes toxic—and how bringing it into the light disarms it
-The failure of “purity culture” vs. the grace-driven process of healing
-Practical tools for moving past porn and into deeper connection with God and others
-The Church’s calling to reclaim sexual wholeness and disciple future generations

🕒 Timestamped Outline
00:00 – Alex’s introduction and framing: What does porn have to do with fitness? 
06:40 – Drew shares about fitness, music, and life in Colorado Springs
08:30 – Introducing Drew Boa: author, podcaster, and Pastoral Sex Addiction Professional
10:15 – Why porn affects stewardship of the body and faith
12:00 – Sexuality as blessing and boundaries: fire in the fireplace analogy
14:30 – Fighting waves vs. riding them: how to deal with sexual energy
17:20 – Why Outgrow Porn is different from other books on the subject
19:10 – Porn as a “sexualized solution to unprocessed pain”
23:30 – The pacifier metaphor: outgrowing childish solutions
27:20 – Fitness metaphor: “try harder” vs. healing foundations
29:40 – Purity culture’s failures and the need for compassion
31:15 – The shame cycle and how healing begins with safe connection
36:00 – Shame: when it’s healthy, when it’s toxic, and how to bring it into light
42:30 – Accessibility of Drew’s writing: practical tools, not academic jargon
44:50 – Head to heart to gut: integrating all of yourself in healing
46:50 – Drew’s hope for the Church: not just avoiding lust, but learning love
50:20 – On offense: the Church storming the gates of hell
52:10 – Porn as spiritual warfare—and how Christ meets us with compassion
54:20 – Drew’s final words: “Always remember, you are God’s beloved son”
55:20 – Alex closes in prayer over Drew, his work, and listeners

🚀 Move Forward Today
-Grab Coach Alex's devotional: Faithful Fitness – A 40-Day Devotional for Christian Health and Stewardship → https://Faithfulfitnessdevo.com
-Join the Better Daily Community → https://betterdaily.live/invite
-Get Drew’s Book: Outgrow Porn – download the free first chapter and begin your healing journey.
-Join Husband Material: Explore Drew’s coaching, groups, and retreats at husbandmaterial.com.
-Bring Shame into the Light: Share this episode with a trusted friend, group, or pastor—and start the conversation.
-Remember: True fitness includes stewarding every part of your body, mind, and spirit.

📚 Featured Guest Resources
-Book: Outgrow Porn – Drew Boa
-Podcast: Husband Material Podcast
-Website: drewboa.com
-Ministry: husbandmaterial.com

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/faithful-fitness-by-better-daily--5150768/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Faithful Fitness Podcast for My Dad. Coach
Alex van Houghten helps you get stronger and mind, body,
and spirit. He believes that your body is a temple,
so taking good care of it is an actual worship.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
I should know.

Speaker 3 (00:15):
I live with.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Him every week. He brings truth from the Bible too
of some science and stories that will set your heart
on fire. May God bless you to become everything He
made you to be, just one percent better every single day.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hit here, Coach Alex ben Houton here Faithful Fitness Podcast.
Our mission is to help you make the most out
of the body God's given you. And before we get
into this episode, I have a clear disclaimer. In our
episode today, we're gonna be talking about the P word.
We're gonna be talking about brokenness, we're gonna be talking
about healing. That's not child appropriate, So if you have

(00:49):
kids with you, let's use some discernment. Press pause and
come back to this later. But I don't want you
to think this is an episode with shame or guilt.
Actually it's quite the opposite. We're going to be catching
up with author and founder Drew Boa, who wrote this
amazing book and founded husband Material Ministries, and I'm so

(01:10):
excited about this conversation because there's so much grace in
this book and so much power in his approach to
helping this thing that has infiltrated our homes and has
quietly taken territory for the enemy in our lives. In fact,
Drew works really hard to help to change men's brains,

(01:31):
heal their hearts, and save their relationships from damage from
the P word. So, if this is a battle that
you fought, maybe a friend of yours has fought, or
somebody you know is fighting it right now, you need
to catch into this episode and you need to share
it with them. Let's get into it. What's up, guys.
This is coach Alex ben Houten on the Faithful Fitness Podcast.

(01:53):
Our mission is to help you make the most out
of the body of God's given you, and I am
so so excited for our guest today, Drew. I'm about
to jump out of my skin. I've had to limit
myself to only one cup of coffees so I don't
overdo it. In this conversation, I am joined with Drew Boa.
How are you doing this morning? Brother?

Speaker 3 (02:12):
I'm feeling excited and I'm riding on the wave of
your energy.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
I was just blaring, dude, I don't know what kind
of music you like to listen to, but I was
just blaring the new album from demon Hunter. They came
back after not like creating any music for like ten years,
and the new album of demon Hunter just dropped, and
so I was just doing like flour presses and curls.
I was like, man, I'm so excited about this conversation.

(02:40):
So I got to ask on that topic. When you
work out, because I know you do, what kind of
music do you enjoy?

Speaker 3 (02:47):
I have been getting into music that has the exact
beats per minute to match my footsteps. Yeah, it's just
so satisfying when the song is keeping my pace. I
don't know how I went thirty years without realizing that

(03:08):
that music can give me exactly the cadence that I
want to have when I'm running.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
So that the tempo helps, doesn't it, because it kind
of puts the whole thing in sync, you know, mind, body, spirit,
everything's all in. Are you training for anything specific right now?

Speaker 3 (03:25):
No? No, just life, just life and exploring. So I
live in Colorado Springs and we have so many great
trails here, I'm trying to do each one.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
Yes, Yes, you'll never run out of a good place
to run there, that's for sure. That's for sure. Well,
I want to introduce you to my audience because not
everybody knows you, so Drew Boa. Drew Boa is the
author of the book we're going to be talking about today,
Outgrow Porn. He's also podcaster, founder of Husband Material Ministries,
and he's a father. He's husband and something I don't

(04:02):
hear very often, which is a certified pastoral sex addiction professional.
That's a mouthful, But I'm so grateful for the work
that you do, and I have to start this entire
podcast with two points of gratitude saying this from the heart.
The first is thank you for this book. I'm so
excited about this book. I can't wait to talk through

(04:23):
it with you in just a second. I can't wait
to introduce my audience to just the power in the
grace that you've managed to articulate in this book. I
firmly believe spirit filled and spirit led a very powerful
weapon against the territory that the enemy's taken in the
lives of men and women in our world today. So
thank you very much. For that. And second, and then

(04:45):
I'll shut up anything you'd like to say on that front. Second,
I did want to also thank you because this is
a good place as any to speak it. Drew was
an important part for the audience. Drew was an important
part of one of the editorial changes we needed to
make to the Faithful Fitness devotional to help me weed
out some language that well just wasn't as theologically sound

(05:09):
as we wanted it to be. And so I just
wanted to say thank you for making our work more robust,
and thank you for the work you've done to write
this book that we'll be talking about today. I appreciate
you very much.

Speaker 3 (05:21):
You're welcome, Alex.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
What a gift. So the book. Now, if you're tuning
in to the Faithful Fitness Podcast, you might ask, what
in the world does outgrowing porn have to do with fitness?
And I'm going to answer this, and I wouldn't mind
your thoughts as well, Drew, before we get into really
the meat and potatoes of the book. But to you

(05:45):
guys who are either new to the Faithful Fitness Podcast
or maybe you've been following us for a bit, we've
not talked about pornography on the show before, but I
want to talk to you about it today. This is
so important. Remember, our mission is to help you make
the most out of the body God's given you. And
and I want you guys to understand that there's there
is a in the spirit world. There's this there's this territory.

(06:08):
I think of it this way, there's a territory that
the enemy wants to take. He wants to take our families,
he wants to take our homes. The Bible says that
the enemy seeks to kill and destroy and one of
those areas. One of those territories is our body. And
so how we feed ourselves, how we exercise, how we restore,

(06:30):
those are things that we can learn to do in
good stewardship of the body God's given us. In pornography,
attacking our sexuality, attacking our families, attacking our minds, our
mental health, attacking our integrity, those that territory is directly
related to the body, not just the body, but definitely

(06:52):
related to the body. And so I think it's such
an important thing for us to talk about. And I'm
so excited to have this conversation. Drew, What did you
say it to somebody who's just walking in and like,
what does what does over outgrowing porn have to do
with you know, the intersection of faith and fitness. Do
you have thoughts on that front?

Speaker 3 (07:07):
And as well, Yeah, health and fitness is similar to
sexuality in that it affects everything, and everything affects it.
How we're doing emotionally, how we're doing it in our relationships, mentally,
the stories we tell ourselves all affect our health and fitness,

(07:28):
and sexuality also plays a huge role in how much
energy you have. It plays a huge role in how
you feel about yourself and how you relate to others.
So it's not just about consuming porn or not. It's
also about what doctor Andrew Bauman calls a pornographic style
of relating that can be infecting your marriage or your

(07:56):
relationship with your kids. And and also it can keep
us in fear, shame, and isolation rather than truly flourishing.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
Well said, Well said, thank you. And I was just
explaining this to my son. So he's ten, and he
was asking me, you know, we have appropriate conversations for
his age, but it's so so important to me that
he knows Dad's a safe place to talk about things.
He's in fifth grade and he's hearing language. He's hearing
references to sex that he doesn't understand right that you know,

(08:32):
maybe some somebody's older sibling has told them, or maybe
they stumbled across it on the internet, or maybe they
overheard an adult conversation or something. And he's hearing these things.
He's like, hey, Dad, what's this mean? What's this mean?
And I was explaining to him, Hey, sex is something
very powerful and good that God made. It's such a
powerful and important and good creation. But it can be dirtied,

(08:59):
it can be sullied, can it can come up in
vulgar conversation, And it's something that we can bring under
the lordship of Jesus, or we can make it something
that's not, which is shameful and guilt ridden. And well,
you know, you probably have more language than I do. There.

Speaker 3 (09:20):
This is a huge part of sex education that many
of us didn't receive. Our sexuality needs blessing and boundaries.
Same thing with our bodies, same thing with our minds.
Like it's all good and it needs to be stewarded.

(09:41):
As you said, So like a fire in the fireplace,
it's warm, it's welcoming. It's life giving, but if you
take it out of the fireplace, it can really destroy
the house. True them, So sexualities like that. It's also
like the ocean, a source of beauty, recreation, play, adventure,

(10:06):
and also it can kill you. And it's more powerful
than we are. And this is one of the primary
insights that I want to share about freedom from porn.
The more you resist sexual thoughts and feelings, the stronger
they get. Yes, And this is why so many men

(10:28):
and women have been fighting a frustrating, exhausting battle for years,
because it's like trying to fight against a wave of
the ocean. Like good luck, the ocean's gonna win. But
when you can learn to move with the waves, and
you can get where you want to go. And so

(10:49):
a big part of what I hope everyone here will
learn is how to move with the waves of sexual
thoughts and feelings instead of against them.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
And and your your book, so the book is Outgrow Porn.
I'm going to put the link in the show notes below.
You were so gracious, by the way, too, you have
a whole first chapter of your book that people can
just download, So I'm going to put the link to that.
But I'm also going to put the link in the
show notes for people to pick this up, but just
the title. So I want to talk to you about
why you wrote this book. Kind of impetus for this

(11:21):
because you've been you've been in this space, you've been
practicing this space for for some years now. And and
I just I've read like maybe eight or nine books
on I wouldn't say overcoming porn, the porn problem. How
about that label? Label them the porn problem? You know,

(11:41):
like every Man's Battle. There's there's a bunch of them,
and in some of them from a Christian perspective, and
that some of them from a scientific perspective what happens
in the brain and all that stuff. And and I
just haven't read a book like this before. I just
have not in a good way. Like I'm like reading
this book, I'm like, man, there is things in my
story that I have outgrown. And I didn't even have

(12:06):
the language to be able to tell you that I
had outgrown them until I read the book. And I
was like, that's why, that's not a problem for me anymore.
In my experience with many of the tools and the
lines of thought and belief systems in the Christian community,
especially when it comes to porn, is something like try

(12:29):
harder and resist more. You know, put more behavioral modification
things on your phone so people know what you're seeing
and that sort of stuff. And I'm not decrying them,
just it was well, it was like training a dog
with a treat instead of dealing with the root issue.
Which I think you might articulate this differently, but one

(12:51):
of the lines you say in your book is very
rarely do men get hooked on porn. Yes, boys get
hooked on porn. And there's there's a very deep and
redeeming idea in what you what you have written about,
and what your the tools and resources and your book
point toward, and that is that you don't have to

(13:13):
struggle with this forever. It's not something you have to
resist until I don't know, you run out of testosterone
enough that you're really not that interested or whatever, which
doesn't happen. By the way, I've worked with a lot
of men in their fifties, sixties or even later who
have wrestled with pornography in their life. It's not a
it's not a testosterone related issue. And and I just

(13:38):
I love love your approach I love the grace and
power in this. This really is a powerful resource, and
so I'm so grateful. But why did you write outgrow porn?
There's a journey there, and there's there's a desire there,
and a hope there, and and love for you to
be able to talk about that here.

Speaker 3 (13:56):
Yeah. Well, like you, I've read many books on this
topic and still felt dissatisfied. Wanted something that was bringing
together the best of neuroscience and psychology from a Christian perspective,
that would be practical, that would say, hey, this is

(14:19):
what you do step by step, without wanting to make
it an obligation or a formula, but like, hey, you
need a whole toolbox to be able to fix this car,
so to speak. I agree that, and some tools are
going to be more helpful for some people than others.
So let's lay them all out there and also give

(14:39):
lots of stories of hope, lots of stories of healing,
so that you have more imagination for what life without
porn can look like. A lot of books talk about
the problems, either the problems with porn or the problems
that drive people to porn, and unfortunately they've been short

(15:00):
on solutions. Yes, so porn actually is a solution. It's
a solution that we learned to use when we were
younger in order to regulate our physical state in our emotions.
So yes, I believe it's a problem. But more than that,

(15:22):
it's a sexualized solution for unprocessed pain. So when we
can learn healthier, more life giving ways to process what
we're feeling, we don't need the old regulator anymore, or
the old pacifier of porn. And so I've wondered sometimes,

(15:48):
if I could process what I'm feeling every single time,
would I ever give into sexual temptation. It's a good question.
It highlights that it's not about sex. It's about learning
to sit with discomfort. It's about the tension. It's about

(16:14):
the longings of our heart that are often unfulfilled. We
don't even realize it. So one of the key concepts
we all need to understand about porn is the difference
between arousal and desire. Arousal is the surface level attraction

(16:40):
and urge to access some kind of sexual content or
to fantasize about someone. So the person that I might
focus on in porn, that would be the arousal. Now
that arousal might make me think I want porn or

(17:03):
I like porn, but that's not necessarily the case, because
arousal is distinct from desire. Arousals at the surface level,
desires at the soul level. So when I see someone
or something that arouses me, I could say, yeah, that's arousing,
but it's not what I desire. What I desire at
a deeper level might be acceptance, belonging, connection, being seen, safe, soothed.

(17:34):
These are the deeper desires that are driving us, and
we don't even realize it.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
And so you have this poignant picture of a pacifier,
and I've heard you say this on your podcast before
that porn is a pacifier. And I work in children's ministry,
so it's a volunteer position with the church. I'm a
lay pastor. But I see, I see what you know,
nine month olds with a pacifier, that's what you know.

(18:01):
They cry and mom's not around, and it's it's like, oh, well,
here's your passy, and so they, you know, they pacify,
they're they're happy with that that stimulus for the moment,
and they will go to sleep or they'll relax or whatever.
And that's that's normal. I'm not trying to normalize porn here.
But but that's they're nine months old, when you're four,

(18:23):
and you're walking around and trying to talk. But you
have a power, I know, like as as somebody who
works with children, I'll take the passy out of their
mouth and say, you're too old for what are you doing?
Talk to me like you can, you can talk to me.
And and the image of pornography as a pacifier, you

(18:46):
said a what'd you say as sexualized solution, sexualized solution
to my un results unprocessed pain. Yeah, unprocessed pain. Okay,
so a sexualized solution to my unprocessed pain. That the
image of a grown man or a grown woman going,

(19:07):
I don't need this anymore, like much maturing and healing
and and not not getting rid of their sexuality. But
in a way the way that you articulate in the book,
it's it's like integrating the good sexuality that God's given
you into your everyday existence, into understanding your needs and

(19:33):
your arousal and desire and what's good about that and
and what what has been hurt about that that that
porn had been addressing in a pacifier sort of way.
But that when you outgrow that. You ask a four
year old, why are you so upset? Oh? He took
my toy? Will fix that. Now, we don't need the

(19:57):
passy for the c in the in the in the upset. Yes, right,
and that that is such a very very powerful image
that I think is worth is not is worth understanding
that It's going to take me a second to get
this phrase that this this sexualized solution to unprocessed pain.

(20:18):
Did I get it? Yeah? Yes, Okay, that's hard for me,
but I'll get there. That the sexualized solution to unprocessed pain.
That's very different from some sort of temptation I got
to keep saying no to. That's a very different picture.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
Right it is is it prompts us to ask, when
I have the urge or the attraction to go back
to something that feels sexually irresistible, I can ask what's
underneath that, What's what's going on for me at a
deeper level, that's that's driving me there. It's a very

(20:54):
different attitude and freedom then naturally comes as a result
of maturity emotionally, to be able to know what I'm
feeling and handle it relationally, to be able to connect
with others rather than settle for a counterfeit connection. And
I think sexually, to be able to embrace and welcome

(21:20):
this part of me rather than trying to get rid
of it. Yeah, and when you think about the image
of a passifier and what is a pacifier, it's a
fake nipple or perhaps for some a fake penis. And
so when we can we can see beyond the service

(21:43):
level of what what does this symbolize for me? What's
it really about? Then then we can pursue the real
thing instead of the fake version.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
And so so for me, this is a this is
a I don't mean to beat a dead horse here,
but this is so important. There is a difference between redemption, healing, integration,
compassion and purity culture. There's a there's a to me,
it just couldn't even be a deeper rift between the

(22:15):
two things. And in one says grace to me, it
says grace, and the other says try harder. And I
have a strange fitness corollary that Mary may not land
with you, but go with me on this. Okay. So,
as a master trainer who spent over ten thousand hours

(22:35):
training myself and other people, when I go to a
gym and I see. Let's say, I see a large
overweight woman in running shoes, not lifting shoes, in running shoes,
trying to do burpies, and I see the pain. I
see the knee braces, I see the lack of posture,

(22:58):
lack of form, and I see that she's doing her best,
like she really is. She's making an effort. She's sweat
and everything hurts. I know the feeling of my joints
not doing what I need them to do. And a
large overweight woman in her fifties does not have any
business trying to do burpies. It's not the right thing
for her. If I walk over to her and I say, yeah,

(23:22):
try harder, or if I say, hey, I see your
effort here, like you're doing such a good job. You're
working so hard. Can I show you some things that
will help you foundationally, so that your body can shift
and change in accordance with the effort that you're putting forward.

(23:44):
There's nothing that hurts my heart more than seeing somebody
whose heart's in the right place, who's trying so hard
but it's like they're getting nowhere. And telling them to
try harder on that hamster wheel is like I mean
it's you might as well punch them in the your
min as well. Like to me, that's that and so
and so I the purity culture that I mean, that's

(24:07):
that's what I was raised in. That's how I tried
to address my struggles with pornography. And I failed every
time until there was grace and healing and maturity. Until
that happened, there was no freedom. There was no freedom,
So and so I I, if you have something to
say about my my metaphor, I'd love to hear that.

(24:28):
But but also when when you approach this in your
practice with men and you and women, and you approach
this in your your podcast, what what would you like
to say to somebody who's wrestled with the purity culture.

Speaker 3 (24:44):
Sometimes the messages that they've heard have been spiritualized platitudes
like you don't love God enough, or you wouldn't be
doing this. You need to believe that the gospel more.

(25:04):
How much are you reading your Bible? How much are
you memorizing scripture? None of those things are bad, and
yet they're not getting at the foundation. And for so
many of us, the foundation is that if you were

(25:29):
if you were exposed to porn at a young age.
You are a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. That is
a fundamental truth and reality that needs to be honored here.
So it's it's not primarily about purity or morality. It's

(25:56):
primarily about a lack of sexual development that yes, has
had moral consequences and implications in adulthood. But we need
to start with compassion for the story behind our sexuality
and a relationship with porn, and that changes everything.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
And I mean, that's that's the heart. It starts in
chapter one in your book. You you spend the time
to help men and women understand where this started for them,
and you encourage them to explore that. I've many of
your tools are in the book are practical ways that
an individual can start the process of understanding where does

(26:44):
this start for me? Where was the pain? Well, you don't,
we won't talk about where to go from here, but
it's it's so powerful to start there.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
Yeah, it's it's important to start there because out growing
porn is not like working out more or changing your diet.
It's like breaking up with somebody who's been there for
you your whole life. It's like it's like cutting off a

(27:17):
family member who you deeply loved who vandalized your sexuality
from a young age. I mean it is, it is
like that for people. It's extremely difficult, and at the
same time like this is this is one of the

(27:40):
most important things you might ever do.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
That's right, It's right. It's like, I know I keep
using fitness metaphors here, but let's say that my legs
are not fit to carry me around. But I have
to walk every day. My knees, my ankles, my hips,
my back, and I can be walking around in pain
all day long. I can do that, and there's a
lot of things I can do to the know the

(28:06):
pain or shove it down or deal with it or
numb it or or whatever. But if I heal the legs,
I make the ankle stronger, if I make the make
the knees stronger, if I make the back stronger, if
I correct the posture, I get I get everything moving
like it's supposed to. Then I get to walk through
my days without this nagging pain all the time. In

(28:27):
my experience, especially, you know, I'm not in the professional
space like you are on this front. I'm just literally
a guy who is with men regularly in the pastoral
space for many many people who are walking through their lives,
they're walking with this pain every day, just just walking
unhealed and traumatized every day. Either one they don't know it,

(28:51):
or two there's so much shame around it that that
they're afraid to go there. Can you talk to me
a bit about out about the shame aspect of this?
Why is the shame thing so powerful and important in
the process of healing and outgrowing porny?

Speaker 3 (29:13):
Shame is one of the three great sexualizers, as I
call them. If you think about your own sexual education,
how many healthy, safe, connecting conversations that you have with

(29:33):
your parents about sex grown up?

Speaker 2 (29:35):
Zero?

Speaker 3 (29:39):
That is the story I hear over and over again.
Or maybe they had like one weekend or one single talk.
Sam Joelman has a great book that came out last
year called The Sex Talk You Never Got Wow. And
so in the absence of that going healthy conversation, the

(30:02):
natural result is shame, silence, secrecy, isolation, feeling like I
can't talk about this, I'm gonna be judge, I'm gonna
be condemned. This is bad. That shame simultaneously cuts us
off from being able to get the support that could
help us in this area. Of life, and it also
increases the appeal of porn because it becomes this forbidden,

(30:28):
magicalized thing that all of a sudden it takes on
even more power because we're not talking about it, because
no one's even acknowledging it except in secret. So I
think for some of us, porn was our primary sex education,

(30:52):
so prevents healthy sexual development, and it gives poor and
more power. And then after accessing poor and many of
us feel even more shame. So it's a vicious cycle.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:08):
Now, shame as a human emotion is actually not bad,
but when it gets infected, it turns into self condemnation,
self hatred, self contempt, and that's what we call toxic shame. Now,
if I'm feeling shame about something like how I look
right now, and I talk about it with you, it

(31:30):
has done its job. The shame has brought me into
connection right, yes, instead of hiding, instead of isolation, and
in the dark that's where it gets infected. So start
of healing is bringing our shame into the light.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
Sorry, sorry to interrupt, just to make sure I understand
that clue it. So, in your mind, shame is a
powerful and good emotion if it brings you into connection, correct,
But shame becomes toxic. When shame becomes slating, you can't
share this. Nobody will understand. You're the only one. Uh
you know this this is this is dirty and gross

(32:08):
and bad, so nobody should know. And you need to
deal with this all by yourself something like that.

Speaker 3 (32:15):
Yeah on a lumkey. The author of Dopamine Nation draws
this distinction by saying, the shame that you are willing
to share is called pro social shame, and it creates
powerful group bonds. When I'm really vulnerable about the things
I don't like about myself in a safe environment, wow,

(32:39):
deep friendships will form there.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yes. And you know, strangely, I've also noticed in that setting,
because because I have, I have been blessed to find
that connection. I've also noticed in that setting that once
shame is out in the open in that sense and
lights on it, that's the end of its power. It's done. Yeah,

(33:02):
Like you don't carry that around anymore? Right? Like? And
is that is that your experience? And also also what
you're talking about.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
Here, Yes, incrementally and increasingly Yes. In every recovery group
I've been in, my challenge to myself has been to
share just a little bit more that I've ever shared before.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
That's tough, because like vulnerability just keeps going down, you know,
like like the core, the little what you call them
little drew.

Speaker 3 (33:31):
Yes, Yes, sharing more and more of little Drew, sharing
more of the things that I've never told anyone before.
And every time I tell a little bit more of
the part of my story that I I think people
are going to reject me for, then that muscle builds.

Speaker 2 (33:52):
Yeah, and you grow, you grow some yes exactly. Yeah, Yeah,
that's that's huge. That's huge.

Speaker 3 (33:59):
So the shame is one of the core issues of porn,
maybe the core issue that if you if you can
start to address shame, you're gonna be more free.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
Thank you for that. And actually in the book, I
want to say this because we've said some things that
aren't like explicitly in your book. They're implicit, they're they're
under the surface. What I loved about how you wrote
is do you use the science, the neuroscience of psychology
and and even counseling to inform your work, but you

(34:32):
don't spend a lot of time in the weeds there.
You tell the reader what they need to understand. That's
practical for them, but like I didn't. I didn't walk
away from this feeling like I just read an academic
paper about it. And I have. I've I've read academic
papers on pornography and that to me, I'm a nerd.
They're very interesting, but they don't tell me what to do,

(34:55):
tell me what to do about this truth as an
so I was, I was talking with my son again,
he's ten, my oldest, and he asked me to watch
a movie and I said, buddy, that's a great movie,
but there's some parts of it that are still inappropriate
for you. And he's like, he's like, well, you know
how old do I have to be? I said, well,

(35:17):
you know there's a maturation process for your brain that
at those points you will be you know, your brain
will have matured enough that it won't affect it in
a negative way as you grow. And I don't think
a lot of guys understand this. Your brain doesn't stop
developing until you know. There's arguments about this, but somewhere

(35:38):
between twenty three and twenty seven, and it's illegal to
have alcohol before twenty one. Why because it will permanently
change the way your brain works. In our house, it's
not illegal necessarily as a as a you know, a statute.
But in our house, we don't allow our kids to

(35:59):
have more than thirty milligrams of caffeine they're young. I
don't I don't want that messing with the way their
brain develops. But a lot of men don't understand that
when you are exposed to porn during your brain development,
that shifts and changes how you how you're wired now,

(36:20):
and that's during development. So when you talk about this
in your book, not in a neuroscience way, but you
help men understand that the part of you that was
was conditioned to porn, or attached to porn, or hurt

(36:40):
by porn, all of the above, and maybe more and
shaped by porn, that part of you was too young
to understand what was probably happening. And it sheds a
lot of light, especially in retrospect for me, you know,
I'm thirty six. Sheds a lot of light and retrospect
for me about many of the ways that was is

(37:00):
just part of my developmental process. Understanding that and digging
into it, and the tools that you have in your
book to help guide men men. I keep saying, men,
it's just because I work with a lot of men,
but men and women, you know, developmental processes. The women's
brains were also maturing, you know, whenever they're exposed to

(37:21):
this sort of thing. It's it's so I just keep
using the word grace because because I picture Christ saying
to somebody, I'm here for you, and I will continue
to be here for you. I know what happened to you,
and I'm not I'm not saying you're a victim. I'm

(37:45):
saying that this is something that I can help you
heal from and grow through, and that to me, that
is this so redeeming. So so I'm actually kind of curious,
academically speaking, how hard was it to not make the
book so academically inaccessible that it was practical? You know

(38:07):
what I'm talking about, Like you live this and read
about it and think about it every day, but it's
so accessible. Your book is so accessible. How hard was
that for you?

Speaker 3 (38:16):
It was easy because I don't like academics.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
A lot.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
Everything to be simple enough so that I can actually
do something with it, you know.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
It's like.

Speaker 3 (38:29):
And I think, actually that's part of why porn has power,
is because for many of us who spend a lot
of time in our heads. Yes, it gets us out
of our heads. It takes a break from the mental
mess and the overthinking and the anxiety and the depression
and whatever's going on in our heads before give you

(38:50):
a break from it. Robert Masters, who coined the term
outgrowing pornography, came on my podcast and he said that
we tend to go back and forth as men from
our head straight to our penises, and we skip everything
in the middle. Well, what's in the middle your heart
and your lungs and your gut. And to become more

(39:15):
integrated is to engage more of all that is within you.
Your heart, your emotions, your deep feelings and desires and
longings are worth attention and worth spending the time to
really get to know, rather than going straight to your

(39:35):
penis and thinking I just need a sexual release, Like
what's really going on in your heart? Also, your lungs
are such a great resource. You know, deep breathing, also
power breathing such as whim Hoff breathing can really help
to ride the waves of sexual energy. And then your gut.
Some people are calling our gut the second brain. Some
people are calling it our first brain. Like there's a

(39:57):
lot of power in listening to our body and our
gut instincts. So oftentimes, once some of my clients are
confused about something, I'll say, what does your gut tell you?
And sometimes the Holy Spirit speaks through our gut.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yeah. Yeah, Sometimes I'll get a gut feeling like I like,
I know the right or wrong here. I know the
words that need to be spoken here, but I don't
know why right, like I can't explain. It hasn't run
through here yet.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
So it will help in the healing process. To be
able to get out of your head without going straight
to your penis.

Speaker 2 (40:35):
No joke, no joke. So I we've talked a lot
about about the underlying principles of your book. We've also
talked about why you wrote it, and as I understand it,
the difference between the purity culture approach, that's what I'm
that's what I'm calling the try harder and you said

(40:58):
read your Bible more kind of thing, and not that
either of those things are bad to do, but it
doesn't address the healing. It's behavioral modification. It's not it's
not an inviting Christ into the deeper places in you
that He can heal and that can be understood and
can grow and doesn't have to be hidden in shame.

(41:21):
But I haven't asked you about what your hope and
prayer for this book is. In reading your bio, one
of the things that you said it was very, very
It's powerful for me because i've heard your work via podcast.
I've read your book, not both your books, I've read
this one. But you said I've committed my life toward

(41:47):
I don't want to say this wrong, but can I
read this real quick because I don't. Yeah, I've devoted
my life to helping men change their brains, heal their hearts,
and say relationships from the damage of pornography. There's a
decent argument to be made that one of the core

(42:09):
struggles in the church right now is the strength of
the bonds between people and the strength of households. But
we talk about all the time in discipleship. You know,
we do our best to disciple children, but mom and
dad are the They're the primary disciplers children. They spend
all the time and energy with the kids. They're praying

(42:29):
over them before bed. I hope they're the ones teaching
them how to read their Bible. And you know, when
they get their alleys and stuff, they're the ones who
are there to help them feel their pain but also
to process it and to struggle forward with it and stuff.

(42:50):
It hurts my heart to know that they are unhealed
men and women that are trying to make their marriages
work and trying to disciple their kids, and trying to
go to work every day doing this, doing this thing
called life. Well, in reading your book, I see a

(43:12):
lot of hope and not trying harder, but but not
being the person trying to do burpees who doesn't need
to be doing burpees to to get on the right
track and outgrow this thing. And so I want to
ask you what what are your hopes and prayers for

(43:35):
outgrow porn and the future? Because I mean this, this
book just came out and well, the impact and the
ripples are yet to be felt, or at least for
the rest of the world. I know that you have
felt it. But what are your hopes and prayers?

Speaker 3 (43:52):
My hope is that more of us would shift from
simply a void lust to learning how to love and
be loved. That we wouldn't measure our success just by
how long I've been clean, but how much I've grown.
That we would not just view relapse as failure, but

(44:13):
as feedback, that our language would be gentle and kind
instead of judgmental and harsh, That we would be less
motivated by fear and shame, that we would be more
motivated by curiosity and compassion, because our ultimate goal is
more than just behavior modification. It's becoming mature. That's my hope.

(44:35):
As more of us do that, we will multiply.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Amen, and there are no more shame. You shine a
light on.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
That stuff, right, I mean, porn has become the norm
rather than the exception, even within the church. So what
if healing could become the norm? What if freedom could
be normal for people?

Speaker 2 (45:00):
Yeah, that's awesome. That that's the gospel. That's that's the God.
Can I Can I teach you something that I've learned?
Or you might you might, in which case I won't
be teaching you will just be agreeing together. But there's this,
there's a super cool passage. I was listening to a
to an expositional theologian recently, and he was who was

(45:22):
digging into a passage in Matthew where Jesus asked the disciples,
who do you say that I am? And you know,
Peter gets it right, he gets the gold star. He's like,
you're the Christ and so so Jesus says, you are Peter.
And on this rock, I will build my church and
the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. And

(45:42):
that's such a it's such a hopeful, powerful passage, right
because because you know, we're the Church and the gates
of Hell aren't going to beat us. But the word
prevailed there in English is actually it sounds like hell's
on offense, right, the gates of Hell will not prevail.
The gates of Hell are battling on all sides. But
don't worry. Don't worry. The Church isn't going to fall

(46:04):
to that. In the Greek, though, prevail is actually a
defensive term. Prevail is like the fortified city that's that's
trying to keep the encroaching army from coming in and
prevail that A better translation in English would read something
like on this rock, I'll build my church and the
gates of Hell will not be able to defend against it. Like, dude,

(46:29):
we're on offense. I don't about you, but that like
fires me up. Wake up everyone, like we're going to
take some territory. We're on offense. Mail let's go. I
see your book as a sword in the hand of
a man who's on offense with compassion, not fighting his
sexual urges.

Speaker 3 (46:50):
Yeah, let me talk about that.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
Yeah please.

Speaker 3 (46:54):
There is a battle, this is spiritual warfare. Unfortunately, so
many of us have turned that battle in on ourselves
when the battle is actually against evil. Now, yes, there
is sin within us, but how does Jesus respond to
sin with love and kindness and compassion. Whenever he saw

(47:18):
someone who was sexually broken and interacted with them, whether
it is a woman caught an adultery, or the woman
at the well, or even Peter after he denied Jesus
three times and it wasn't sexual, but it was still
a grievous sin, he came with kindness and grace. Now,
when he was up against evil, then he was commanding

(47:43):
and militant. So we're not fighting against our sexuality. We're
fighting for our sexuality against evil. Let's go, let's go.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
Let's go. Man. Now I'm all fired up to I
was fired up when we started. Now i'm fired up now. Drew,
I dropped it. I'm going to grab it Drew again.
Thank you for this book. I'm very excited about this book,
and I'm going to pray over it. But I'm praying

(48:17):
that this is a best seller, not because you sought
to sell a million copies, but because I believe that
every man and woman needs to be informed in our
world today, especially with the advent of AI, like, oh
my gosh, every man and woman needs to be informed
about the battle is not it's not against you on

(48:41):
the inside. You can become and grow in such a
manner that you don't have to fight yourself. You don't
And I just I just see that as such a
profound and powerful thing, and so I want this in
the hands of every person who is willing to read it.
I'm going to be honest. I had to keep it
in my side table in the drawer because I've got

(49:05):
a ten year old and a three year old and
that's where I keep my gun. I don't want my
ten year old and three year old like playing with
my gun. Not that the book's the gun, but they're
not ready to read about this yet. Right at the
same time, it couldn't not be read. It has to
be like this is this is important, This is powerful
and good, and so I hope that this is a
normal conversation between men, between women about what it looks

(49:30):
like to outgrow porn and to bring that shame into
the light, to heal and mature and to lead families
kind of like I was talking about earlier, walking around
not in pain, done being in pain. We're done with that,
like we walk normal now. And that's my prayer. I
know I've I've mixed probably too many fitness metaphors in there, brother,

(49:50):
But do you have anything that you would like to
address our If you can believe it, it's been an
hour already, which is I could talk to you for
a while about this, But do you have anything that
you would like to address our listeners who are interested
in exploring this further?

Speaker 3 (50:07):
Yes, I'm going to speak specifically to the men here
with the same words that I speak at the end
of every podcast. Always remember you are God's beloved son.
In you, he is well pleased.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
Amen, Drew. Can I end this podcast by praying over
you and your family and your ministry and this book. Please?
Awesome Father God, thank you so much for this day.
Thank you for the opportunity to spend time with my brother,
and thank you for the good work that you've laid
on his heart. I'm so grateful that he sacrificed time

(50:46):
and energy and willpower and all the things that went
into producing such a grace filled tool, such a spirit
filled weapon. Lord, I pray that you would bless him,
that your favor would be on his household, that you
would protect him and his family against the designs of

(51:07):
the enemy. I also pray, Lord, for our listeners to
this conversation, I speak against shame in Jesus' name, I
pray for freedom and grace to abound. I pray Lord
that if there's anybody listening or watching who is struggling
or knows somebody who's struggling with pornography, that you would

(51:31):
meet them with love and compassion, that you would give
them the means and the resource to connect with what
Drew's written and outgrow porn. And I pray that you
would guide them to be connected in community, and that
this would have no power in them anymore. In Jesus's name,
I pray these things in his mighty name. Amen, Amen, Amen, Man.

(51:57):
Thank you so much for this time. This has been epic,
and for our listeners, Thank you guys for joining us
so much. You guys know what I'm going to say next.
This has been coach Alex van Holten on the Faithful
Fitness podcast. Until next time, train hard, but pray harder.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Hey, if this episode helps you, jare it with someone
who needs to hear it, and don't forget to subscribe
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find Faithful Fitness. Oh and my dad's new devotional is
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and then join our free community at Better Daily by

(52:38):
clicking on the links in the show notes below. We
all have a cross to carry, but it's lighter when
we do it together, so check out both links in
the show notes. Don't be a big well bob, just
do it. Until next time, don't forget, Train hard and
pray even harder to litt