Which American Way Wins? | Episode 05 - Fandom Presents: Superman vs. the KKK

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
American cultural memory is very short, especially when it comes
to things that people would rather forget.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
The American way is a term that I grew up with,
but it's not a term that I hear people using
that much anymore.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
Now people can go to these little niche outlets that
basically reinforce however it is that they already feel and
that prevents us from coming together.

Speaker 4 (00:29):
The Superhero takes that tradition of a kind of cultural
exemplar are and it magnifies it to deal with what
are really complicated, big problems.

Speaker 5 (00:40):
The great conflict today is the dominant society, which is
white folk dealing with new struggles that they often.

Speaker 6 (00:53):
Put the blame on.

Speaker 5 (00:56):
People who don't look like them.

Speaker 7 (01:11):
It's Saturday, May fourteenth. Two American teenagers from two American
towns only seven miles apart, wake up in their respective beds.

Speaker 6 (01:20):
One, an eighteen year old from Great ben Pennsylvania, strolls
into his local Tim Hortons in basketball shorts and slides.
He orders half a dozen glazed donuts with sprinkles, then
text a friend doctor strange today. The friend texts back dope.

Speaker 7 (01:33):
Across the state line in Conkline, New York, a ten
minute drive up Interstate eighty one from Great Bend, another
eighteen year old maneuvers around his messy bedroom. He throws
on army pants. He leans over his desktop, where several
chat boxes are open. He clicks them all closed, then
rushes out of his room with a Duffel bag in toe.

Speaker 6 (01:53):
The boy from Great Bend hops in his car and
drives to his friend's house. They share the donuts on
the way to the theater as they discuss their theories
on the latest Marvel movie.

Speaker 7 (02:01):
The Conklin Kid drives in silence for three hours alone.
He's white knuckling both hands on the steering wheel. Before
pulling off the highway, he retrieves a helmet from his
passenger seat, powers on the camera attached to the front,
and places it on his head. Viewers of his Twitch
live stream watch from his POV. As his car pulls
into a parking lot at the.

Speaker 6 (02:21):
Movie theater, the boy from Great Band orders a large
popcorn and a Doctor Pepper and a Marvel collector's cup
featuring faces from the movie Doctor Strange wand a MAXIMUMV
Wong America Chavez. He'll later add the cup to his
collection of Marvel Merchndicks savorite item iron Man's Infinity gallet glove.

Speaker 7 (02:38):
A steel plate slides into place on the tactical vest
strapped to the Conklin Kid's chest. The live stream captures
his image from the rear view mirror as he straps
on his gloves, loads his pockets with ammunition, and retrieves
a Bushmaster x M fifteen rifle from the backseat. Before
exiting the car, he secures the strap of his helmet

(03:00):
and says to himself, just got to go for it.

Speaker 6 (03:03):
The kid from Great Ben spends the next two hours
and six minutes of his life slacked out of the
sites and sounds of the latest installment of his favorite
film franchise.

Speaker 7 (03:11):
The Conklin Kid spends the next moments of his life
shooting thirteen people and killing ten at a Buffalo grocery store,
a store he targeted specifically because it was in a
predominantly black neighborhood.

Speaker 6 (03:25):
Two American teenagers from two American towns only seven miles apart.
How did we get here?

Speaker 7 (03:36):
We're back with episode five and the end of our series.
To this point, we've been looking at what being American
meant to Superman and what it meant to the KKK,
and how.

Speaker 6 (03:46):
Those two cultural forces packaged and sold their ideology to
the public using the tools of the media.

Speaker 7 (03:51):
Including radio, movies, television, journalism, advertising.

Speaker 6 (04:00):
And yes, fictional heroes.

Speaker 7 (04:04):
What we've been telling you is the story of the
myth of the American Way and how it was essentially
made up.

Speaker 6 (04:11):
Here we'll explore how the values that Superman represented and
the Klan's rhetoric are being packaged and spread in the
modern era.

Speaker 7 (04:17):
But first a note on this episode. We're tackling comics
and mass media today and the way the white supremacists
disseminate their messaging across all modern media, including social media
and man, is this evolving quickly the.

Speaker 6 (04:31):
Context At the time of this recording, we're closing out
twenty twenty two, so parts of what we're talking about
are updating as we're speaking and as you're listening. Also,
due to some life complexities, we needed to record this
on zoom so you know it's.

Speaker 7 (04:43):
Zoomy, yeah, and it's meati. We're covering a lot of ground,
basically the evolution of the American dream itself and the
American nightmare. Also comics comics, so strap in this one
is a doozy. I'm Mark bernardin I'm Rock Corne and
this is Fandom presents Superman versus the KKK. You'd think

(05:08):
that a lot has changed in the seventy plus years
since The Adventures of Superman aired, But have it.

Speaker 6 (05:13):
We have made advances, and yet in some ways things
have actually regressed in our public discourse in recent years.

Speaker 7 (05:19):
As we've talked about the notion of the American Way
inherent in Superman's rejection of the racist ideology of the
Clan of the Fiery Cross. The American Way, which has tolerance, cooperation,
and consensus as its ethos, was in large part a
story created by the government with the cooperation of the media.

Speaker 6 (05:37):
It was designed to unify the US during times of crisis.

Speaker 7 (05:41):
Therefore, anything in opposition to that unity, such as the
white supremacist ideology of the clan, was how.

Speaker 8 (05:48):
Did Clark com put it?

Speaker 6 (05:49):
Un American? Indeed, the clan's ideology, in addition to being
fundamentally immorl terroristic, and violent, was also clearly invented, packaged
and sold back to any takers. It was even franchised,
as we've seen. I mean, the majority of white Southerners
were not still owning plantations. They never owned plantations the
majority at any rate.

Speaker 7 (06:10):
And though it's certainly the better and more aspirational ideology,
the American way that Superman represented often needed to find
ways to discount the truth on the ground or ignore
it in order to stay intact.

Speaker 6 (06:24):
Yet in many ways, this notion of the American way
as fundamentally about tolerance maintained a cultural stronghold in much
of our mass media for decades following the nineteen forty
six radio show.

Speaker 7 (06:34):
However, that wasn't true in reality or even in what
we were seeing in fictional media. Essentially, we were told
America is all about equality, but in TV shows and
movies often the white people were the heroes and the
characters of color were not.

Speaker 6 (06:49):
It's always sobering, especially as a person of African descent,
when you realize that you can tell who America is
for in many ways by who it portrays as its heroes.
In the media, from cop shows to books, there's a
picture being painted of who gets to be good and
who gets to be bad, and society is often all
too happy to follow those cues.

Speaker 7 (07:08):
What's notable right now this instant is that a lot
of how America sees and represents itself is in the
midst of a seismic shift.

Speaker 6 (07:16):
This ideological war we've been talking about is very much
alive and potentially deadly.

Speaker 7 (07:21):
Why why no right now? I mean, we began this
project in late twenty nineteen. We were seventeen interviews in
and had to pause for a variety of reasons. And
what we found in the relatively short window of time
between February of twenty twenty and the end of twenty
twenty two, the way the mass media covered these issues

(07:41):
has shifted dramatically.

Speaker 6 (07:43):
Talking about the United States is a nation founded by
and steaked in the history of white supremacy was not
common even a few years ago, and we're starting to
see changes in terms of onscreen depictions.

Speaker 7 (07:53):
Conversely, openly racist language is now used both in politics
and mass media outlets.

Speaker 6 (08:00):
Looking at why this is happening as well as the
results in.

Speaker 7 (08:03):
The narrative around Superman's American Ways still exists, but it's
been complicated in part because there's no real unifying force
around this idea. Here's Wendy Wall, author of Inventing the
American Way.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
The American Way is a term that I grew up with.
But it's not a term that I hear people using
that much anymore, at least broadly across the spectrum. I
mean today when I hear it, I more often hear
it from people people on the right, Trump supporters, people
like that, And I think today I guess there are
exceptions to that, like you know, people for the American

(08:36):
Way or something. There are there are some progressive groups
who have used it in the past, but I think
today people are often assuming that it's a kind of
harkening back to a period of a golden age of
consensus that America supposedly had in the late forties and fifties.

(08:57):
Obviously a kind of golden age that wasn't so golden
if you were African American, or gay, or lots of
other things.

Speaker 7 (09:05):
And though the platforms and organizations have changed, the KKK's
message is still very much spreading.

Speaker 6 (09:11):
Why do these two viewpoints, hate versus hope still have
such a hold on us.

Speaker 7 (09:16):
To get a handle on this, let's step back. Only
five years after airing the plan of the Fiery Cross episodes,
The Adventures of Superman signed off for the last time
on March first, nineteen fifty one.

Speaker 6 (09:28):
And that's because a grand new adventure awaited our fair hero.
It was time for him to don his tights and
cape and flexus muscles for all the world to see, lights,
camera and action.

Speaker 9 (09:40):
Come with me and I'll show you what every one
of you can do single hand. Here you can tune
in this wonderful new Westinghouse television set with just one
hand like this because it has That.

Speaker 6 (09:52):
Was Betty Furness, spokesperson for Westinghouse and a commercial for
their new single dial television. In nineteen fifty.

Speaker 7 (09:58):
The advent of television and transformed American households practically overnight.
The number of TVs in use from nineteen forty six
to nineteen fifty one skyrocketed from six thousand to around
twelve million.

Speaker 6 (10:11):
Video indeed killed the radio star.

Speaker 7 (10:13):
And the producers behind the Adventures of Superman were all
to aboard the new medium sweeping the nation. After all,
their patent and heroes started off in full view on
the pages of those beloved comic books. So they knew.
They knew his cute little Kryptonian dimples would be a
smash it on TV.

Speaker 6 (10:30):
Backed by their old friend Kellogg's, ABC Network aired the
Adventures of Superman television series starring George Reeves from nineteen
fifty two until nineteen fifty.

Speaker 8 (10:39):
Eight, Superman, who can change the course of biney rivers,
Ben Steele in his bare hands, and who disguised as
clock damp mild mannered reporter for a great Mentropolitan newspaper
Fights are never ending battle but truth, justice, and the
American way.

Speaker 7 (10:57):
So from the page to radio, to the small screen
and then eventually the big screen. In the nineteen seventy
eight feature film Superman and its subsequent sequels and reboots,
the big Blue Boy Scout proved that his appeal could
transcend across any new entertainment media that came his way, and.

Speaker 6 (11:14):
Even today is the subject of a little thing we
like to call a podcast.

Speaker 7 (11:19):
Oh not a moment for all Superman accomplished as a
fictional character, his presence was and still remains a groundbreaking
force in entertainment, paving the way for all who came
after him.

Speaker 6 (11:31):
And with that, this is where we will leave our
boy in Blue for a bit to talk about the
popularity of superheroes in American culture in our current day
and age. But don't worry, be with.

Speaker 8 (11:40):
Us again for the next thrilling installment of Superman.

Speaker 6 (11:45):
So what is it? Is there something truly special about Superman,
or is the appeal of superheroes in general? What audience
is actually crave?

Speaker 7 (11:53):
In the decades since Superman first took flight, comic book
hero adaptations have been reliable money makers for many film
and TV studios. Take, for example, the CW's DC Arrowverse.

Speaker 6 (12:04):
Or Christopher Nolan's Dark Night Saga.

Speaker 7 (12:06):
Or Sam Raimi's Spider Man series.

Speaker 6 (12:08):
The list goes on and on, from X Men to
Men in Black to those pizza loving teenage mutions eternals.

Speaker 7 (12:13):
But we can't go much further without acknowledging the elephant
in the room.

Speaker 6 (12:17):
Uh what elephant?

Speaker 7 (12:19):
It starts with an N and ends in billions of
dollars A.

Speaker 6 (12:23):
Yes, the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

Speaker 7 (12:25):
Led by one Tony Stark.

Speaker 6 (12:27):
The shared universe, centered around a vast variety of superheroes,
with all appeared in Marvel comics, has both dozens of
feature films and TV series, garnered critical and fan approval,
and grossed so much money, so.

Speaker 7 (12:39):
Much, over twenty seven billion in box office revenue to
this date and counting.

Speaker 6 (12:44):
So what is it about Americans and American culture today?
That has latched done so tightly to the MCU.

Speaker 7 (12:49):
For that, we must take a trip back in.

Speaker 6 (12:51):
Time courtesy of Tony's time machine.

Speaker 7 (12:57):
If there's my ancient Wainsworld reference job, thank you. It's
May two thousand and eight. US troops are fighting a
war in the Middle East for the seventh consecutive year.
The collapse of the housing market has put the US
in a crash course towards a devastating economic crisis.

Speaker 6 (13:13):
Which is the perfect time for a billionaire playboy.

Speaker 10 (13:17):
I'm just not the hero type, clearly, with this laundry
list of character defects, all the mistakes I've made largely public.

Speaker 6 (13:27):
Truth is I am Iron Man?

Speaker 7 (13:32):
Indeed really finger on the pulse there, But it actually was,
as we'll see for those of you who don't know,
that was Robert Downey Junior in Marvel's Iron Man.

Speaker 6 (13:41):
It's not lost on us that Tony Stark makes the
earth shattering announcement that he is indeed Iron Man. It's
a room full of median press reporters akin to our
old pal Clark Kent. In fact, much of the film
relies on Stark's public image is a rich tech guru
Jax opposed with this private endeavor moonlighting as a helmeted hero.

Speaker 7 (13:57):
But unlike Clark Kent, whose entire existence is an attempt
to keep Superman's identity a secret, Tony Stark goes out
and announces his identity to the media at the end
of his very first movie, knowing full well the power
of the press on paper.

Speaker 6 (14:11):
These two characters, one a bombastic billion billionaire driven by
his own egomania, and the other a humble, truth seeking
alien raised on American values, couldn't be more different. And
Superman was already a proven success.

Speaker 7 (14:23):
And yet two thousand and eight was an error in
which tech billionaires like Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg were
idle worshiped as inspirations. Now hang on, that may not
be true today, but it certainly was then. Do you
guys remember the social network? I mean, Elon Musk even
has a somewhat awkward cameo in Iron Man two.

Speaker 6 (14:40):
Which might be why Marvel chose Tony Stark to lead
the cinematic charge and not the closest hero Marvel had
it to Superman, at least as far as values are concerned. That's,
of course, Steve Rogers aka Captain America, right.

Speaker 7 (14:52):
Kap would come later, but it's almost like they had
to set up his foil first in Tony because we
were more likely to connect to that cynical tech guru archetype,
you know, and we needed him to balance Cat's earnest
goodness out.

Speaker 6 (15:04):
Placing a polarizing figure like Stark on a pedestal to
not only launch the Marvel cinematic universe, but to also
act as the first member of what would eventually become
pop culture's signature franchise, The Avengers. More than that, Tony
was a new type of hero who could represent truth,
justice in the American way in the modern media landscape.
I mean this is literally a global weapons dealer versus

(15:24):
Superman's clean cut Clark Kent.

Speaker 7 (15:26):
Most importantly for Marvel, it paid off. The film was
a striking success, earning ninety eight million in its first weekend,
five hundred and eighty five million total and a ninety
four percent critics rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Ironman's success was
also a telling indicator that producer Kevin Feige's long term,
multi phase world building franchise of Marvel properties, the MCU,

(15:49):
had endless potential in both public popularity and profitability.

Speaker 6 (15:54):
I mean sitting down to watch all twenty three feature
films up to Doctor Strange in the Multiverse, a Madnisen
television series up to Moonnight, six shorts and three web
series would take you approximately sixteen days, seven hours and
forty four minutes, with no time for bathuum breaks, mind you.
And that is not considering Miss Marvel. That is not
considering thor love and thunder. I mean, come on, it's diapers.

Speaker 7 (16:16):
Yeah, you need so many divers It's very entertaining, but
not ideal for your urinary tract. I mean, the dedication
it takes to be part of this fandom is astonishing,
and we should know because we have committed that time.
So this is also very sobering. What's most salient for
us in this podcast, however, is that Marvel has undeniable

(16:37):
power in the marketplace, similar to what Superman did in
the nineteen forties, So how are they going to use
that over time?

Speaker 6 (16:44):
Also key is how superheroes of change, which reflects how
the country's changed. Marvel has long been known to depict
more complex, human and flawed heroes, you know, people more like.

Speaker 7 (16:53):
Us, whereas DC has long been known for their more
archetypal mythological and aspirational heroes so like they're what we'd
like to worship but can likely never be.

Speaker 6 (17:03):
And it speaks to why DC has often struggled with
characters other than Batman, you know, who's just a guy
whose superpowers money. For many years, they simply became less relatable.

Speaker 7 (17:14):
I postulate that many in the generation following the dissolution
men of Vietnam and Nixon, the notably cynical Generation X,
and the millennials more X, they simply weren't inclined to
buy into characters that felt too perfect and relatedly a
version of America that was too idealized.

Speaker 6 (17:32):
It also speaks to a nation that to some degree
wants to reckon with its own flaws and darkness, but
perhaps doesn't quite know how to and at the same
time retain the aspirational qualities that a Superman represents.

Speaker 7 (17:44):
It really makes you think, though, in a sea off
masks and capes, can a modern day superhero effectively take
on the socio political issues of the day today and
remain popular and profitable, just as Superman did in The
Klan of the Fiery Cross.

Speaker 6 (18:00):
After all, if we look around at modern America, the
villains in atrocity Superman battle against all those years ago
still remain. They just might look a little different there.

Speaker 7 (18:07):
It's not lost on us that in the same year
that Ironman hit theaters, a charismatic black senator from Illinois
was elected president on the platform that there was hope
on the.

Speaker 6 (18:17):
Horizon, thus unleashing a backlash from some sections in the
media in the form of false breatherism, claims that he
is not in fact a natural born citizen, and paving
the way for the public rise in white supremacist language
we see today.

Speaker 7 (18:29):
It's true that some things change and some remain the same.
For example, the KKK didn't disband just because a comic
book superhero embarrassed them on the radio. Unfortunately. Here's alexamend,
a communications director at Moonshot, an organization aiming to reduce
online harm, including violent extremism.

Speaker 11 (18:47):
You know, the Klan, I mean had several different forms,
and you know, the one that kind of reconstituted itself
to fight the civil rights movement, you know, had had
more narrow goals to basically stop that movement and stop desegregation.
And really a big difference I think overall is you know,

(19:11):
the clan was very nationalist in orientation.

Speaker 6 (19:16):
As alex and Men is indicating the KKK became fundamentally nationalistic,
which will be important in today's climate. But in the
fifties and sixties it splintered and fractured into multiple groups.
Like the US Clans, and White Knights were largely focused
on stopping desegregation. They had fewer members than in the
nineteen twenties, but those they did have were focused on
violent accelerationist actions.

Speaker 7 (19:36):
In nineteen fifty seven, seven members of the US Clans
kidnapped a black mechanic named Judge Edward Aaron, beat him,
castrated him, poured hot turpentine into his wounds, and carved
the letters KKK into his chest. Four of his attackers
were eventually convicted and sentenced to twenty years in prison. However,
when George Wallace, a staunch segregationist, became governor of Alabei,

(20:00):
he pardoned all four men without providing an explanation.

Speaker 6 (20:03):
The White Knights of the ku Klux Klan were well
known as the most secretive and violent faction of the KKK,
carrying out numerous bombings, church burnings, beatings, and murders. They're
most well known for the gruesome nineteen sixty four Mississippi
burning murders, which left three civil rights workers, one black
and two Jewish dead. The victims were all part of
the Congress of Racial Equality, whose purpose was to encourage

(20:24):
black citizens to register to vote.

Speaker 7 (20:26):
Then the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four and
the Voting Rights Act of nineteen sixty five, with the
final legal nails in segregation, and public support for the
clan began to dwindle, but the ideology of the KKK
simply moved underground. White supremacists, who were no longer part
of the mainstream necessarily started new and more covert groups

(20:46):
like the Aryan Nations and the National Alliance.

Speaker 6 (20:49):
So no more time magazine profiles and ritual cross burning
photo ops. But they did continue to commercialize their hate
by returning to methods that worked for them in the past.
Remember how D. W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation in
part inspire the resurgence of the KKK in the twenties.
While in the seventies, the leader of the National Alliance,
William Pierce, wrote and published a novel called The Turner Diaries.

(21:09):
The book chronicles a violent overthrow of a fictional predominantly
Jewish US government by white militants, and depicts the extermination
of all groups opposed by the novel's protagonists, including Jews,
non whites, liberal actors, and politicians.

Speaker 7 (21:22):
The FBI labeled the book the Bible of the racist right,
and it's said to have inspired Timothy mcfay's planning and
execution of the Oklahoma City bombing, which killed one hundred
and sixty eight people in nineteen ninety five, as well
as several other terrorist attacks.

Speaker 6 (21:36):
Up until twenty twenty, it was still available for purchase
on Amazon and media. Law enforcement typically label attacks carried
out by perpetrators like mcveigh's lone Wolf terrorism, meaning someone
who acts alone without the help or encouragement of a
government or terrorist organization.

Speaker 7 (21:51):
But wait, you're asking yourselves. We presume isn't there a
direct link between mcvay's actions and a text written by
the leader of a hate group. So how exactly is
that a lone wolf? Well, that's a pretty nuanced answer.

Speaker 6 (22:04):
We could do an entire podcast about the myth of
the lone wolf, but just one relevant factor in terms
of truly getting into the root of attacks like these,
Maybe that neither the KKK, nor the predominant white supremacist
hate groups in the United States have been officially designated
as terrorists.

Speaker 7 (22:20):
There's one exception in terms of white supremacist groups, the
Russian Imperial Movement, which was given the designation by the
State Department in twenty twenty. But that's a complex exception
which does not solve for or address the fundamental issue,
which is that the most significant and this is key
domestic groups operating primarily within the United States, they have

(22:42):
not at present been classified this way.

Speaker 6 (22:44):
Which hinders law enforcement from quelling white supremacist terrorism before
it starts. Here's former FBI agent Mark German on why
the agency may have been slow moving to address the
threat of these terrorist organizations.

Speaker 12 (22:57):
I mean, the FBI under j Edgar Hoover was almost
entirely white and entirely male. And while the FBI attempted
to diversify since then, it never really caught up and
represented the public, but was always getting better. And the
FBI by twenty sixteen was almost eighty four percent white

(23:19):
and eighty percent male. So if you look at the
attitudes of white males in this country, that gives you
an idea of how that attitudes within the FBI would
mirror those, And you know, I don't think many white
males go to sleep at night worried that white supremacists
are going to attack them and their family.

Speaker 7 (23:40):
We do want to note here that this is highly
speculative on German's part.

Speaker 12 (23:45):
So when they're looking out on the horizon, thinking what
are future threats that I need to worry about, white
supremacists don't top that list.

Speaker 6 (23:54):
And then welcome to the Internet.

Speaker 13 (23:58):
Who welcome?

Speaker 7 (24:00):
The ideology of hate predicated by the KKK and other
white supremacist groups has moved into the digital age, taking
advantage of the advances in technology, and today it's almost
fully accessible online. So while the plan of the nineteen
twenties needed to hire a PR firm to support them
in crafting and delivering their messaging, the Internet is in
many ways doing that for these groups today.

Speaker 6 (24:22):
Forget fashioning bedsheet hoods and burning crosses, It's all about
cyberspace now. Here's Joan Donovan, the director of the Technology
and Social Change Research Project at Harvard Kennedy Schoenstein Center,
on this burgeoning news safe space for hate speeding.

Speaker 14 (24:36):
When we first got online communication technologies, blackboard systems, message
early message boards, early newsletters, or mass email systems. White
supremacists were some of the very first user communities. This
had a lot to do with the way in which
they were stigmatized from organizing in the public. Obviously a

(24:59):
legacy of the Act to this, who spent an enormous
amount of energy to make sure that the Klan didn't
feel that they could organize in public. But the Internet
added this layer of anonymity and people could come together
to discuss any manner of topics.

Speaker 7 (25:17):
So the idea that they were stigmatized from organizing in
public may have been due to the successful dissemination of
Superman's version of the American Way.

Speaker 6 (25:25):
Not only has the Internet made it easier for white
supremacist groups to spread hate, but the material they both
create and share online is now reaching people who may
not normally have seen it.

Speaker 7 (25:33):
In the first place, and much of that is thanks
to a little thing we like to call the algorithms.
By making use of artificial intelligence algorithms before automated deductions
and use mathematical and logical tests to divert the code
execution through various roots. Mark translate that.

Speaker 6 (25:50):
It's like when you type flights of the Bahamas into
Google and then you get ads for Linen beachware for
the next nine.

Speaker 7 (25:55):
Weeks basically, but these algorithms are leading to a much
more sinister place and Tommy Bahamas. A research study conducted
by the Brookings Institute found that during the twenty twenty
coronavirus pandemic, Facebook algorithms led users who exhibited skepticism of
coronavirus related lockdowns by clicking to related links or articles.
They led him down to a rabbit hole to multiple

(26:17):
other online communities, including anti government militias.

Speaker 6 (26:21):
So what you're saying is the algorithm is like an
evil genius superbot hell bent on world domination. Sounds a
bit like a Superman villain to me.

Speaker 7 (26:30):
Truth. It's also why your very nice aunt looked up
alternative arthritis cures and one week later was mainlining q
Andon more on Cue a bit. Here's Alex and mend again.

Speaker 11 (26:41):
Algorithms have many issues, and I think it's been shown
kind of over and over again, especially like on YouTube
that right there's just a lot higher engagement than the
algorithm's tip scale over to more controversial content. But there's
on the other side of that right content creators who
understand that and then provide the content. So you know,

(27:02):
I got that vicious cycle going.

Speaker 6 (27:03):
The more controversial, the more clicks it gets, which means
that creators are rewarded and we'll make more of the same.
Here's Christian Piccolini, founder of the Free Radicals Project and
the author of Breaking Hate, confronting the new culture of extremism.

Speaker 10 (27:15):
Well, conspiracy theories are nothing new, but the Internet has
really changed the way that we ingest them and the
way we come across them. You know, when I was recruited,
I had to be handed a physical pamphlet, a book,
I had to be invited to a meeting. But the
Internet has really made it a place where things like
fake news and conspiracy theories can be found by anyone

(27:39):
at any time. In fact, the Internet is kind of
like a twenty four hour all you can eat hate buffet.
If you really, you know, want it, it's not hard
to find it. You know, our children run across it
on a daily basis. We see it. We actually even
may spread it without knowing it, and that's a problem.

Speaker 7 (27:57):
A well known modern phenomenon associated with algorithms is the
tendency to exist in perspective silos. Here's doctor bailing Shaw,
dean of the College of Communications at California State University
in Fullerton.

Speaker 3 (28:10):
Well, right now, there's a bajillion different media outlets, you know, broadcast, digital, online,
et cetera. And so really people can go wherever they
want to go to hear whatever it is that they
want to hear. And if you go back to what
I said earlier about people being defensive and therefore not

(28:30):
open to stuff that's different from them, it is human
nature to go where our own opinions and thoughts will
be reflected. And so that actually has led to increasing
divides in our society because of the media outlets and
channels being fragmented. And now people don't have to listen
to one of three stations that norm our understanding as

(28:53):
a society. Now people can go to these little niche
outlets that basically reinforce however it is they already feel,
and that prevents us from coming together so.

Speaker 7 (29:03):
Much for control consensus.

Speaker 6 (29:04):
In other words, as you've been outlining, content that creates
an emotional reaction tends to get more engagement. Sometimes that's
known as flamebating, and the more engagement means the algorithm
will serve the content more, meaning it'll be available to
more eyeballs.

Speaker 7 (29:18):
Basically, it makes things feel more real and relevant in
our lives. It doesn't matter whether that information really is
the most important piece of information or relevant to your life.
It amplifies your perspective because you're feeling emotional, so you
seek out more information about it, which amplifies your emotions
and your perspective about it.

Speaker 15 (29:36):
Again.

Speaker 7 (29:37):
It becomes a vicious cycle that ultimately can lead to
a fairly minority opinion or perspective feeling as though it's
a majority opinion or perspective.

Speaker 6 (29:47):
Also, what Christian pickolinga touches on. That's a serious problem
and has always been in America our conspiracy theories. Online
radicalization is not just affecting users more prone to embracing
white supremacist rhetoric. It's affecting Americans who may rea to
consume disinformation, which can in turn lead to dangerous and
often violent consequences.

Speaker 7 (30:05):
The wackiest of all wacky conspiracies q andon.

Speaker 6 (30:09):
It's insanely complicated, but the gist of QAnon centers on
false claims made by an anonymous individual known as Q
that a cabal of satanic cannibalistic pedophiles within the US
government conspired against former President Donald Trump during his term
in office. It's even spread beyond US politics and into
several other countries, and has also moved offline spreading real

(30:29):
world harassment and violence. We could talk at length about
q andon, which has already been widely debunked, but check
out HBO's Q Into the Storm if you haven't already.

Speaker 7 (30:38):
But what many of these conspiracies have in common is
they are mutations and a rehashing of long standing anti
Semitic and racist conspiracies that have been around for centuries,
like those written about in the Protocols of the Elders
of Zion. The protocols describe the quote secret plans of
Jews to rule the world by manipulating the economy, controlling

(30:58):
the media, and during religious conflict, theories which have been
repeatedly discredited. They also include the antisemitic trope of blood
libel just like Youanon.

Speaker 6 (31:09):
A Morning Consult pull from twenty twenty one found that
nearly four and five Americans who subscribe to the Protocols
of the Yelders of Zion also believe in QANO. These
are the types of conspiracies that were used by Hitler
and the Nazis to justify the Holocaust, and much of
these conspiracy theories are disseminated today by a common source,

(31:30):
the alt right, a loosely connected far right white nationalist movement.
The largely online phenomenon originated in the early twenty tens
and covers a vast spectrum of ideologies.

Speaker 7 (31:40):
From the Manisphere, a grouping of misogynistic communities, including the
men's rights movement and in cells which is very lovely
to explore.

Speaker 6 (31:47):
To anti government militias like the Proud Boys and Oathkeepers, to.

Speaker 7 (31:50):
Straight up neo Nazis and modern day clansmen. In the
nineteen twenties, the members of the KKK were able to
disseminate a notion that they were in a crisis because
American culture was changing around them, in part due to
the demographic ships from immigration, urbanization, and the migration of
African Americans from the South to the.

Speaker 6 (32:09):
North, with America's first black president, marriage equality of rapidly
growing Hispanic community, and predictions that America would soon be
a majority minority country. That same message resonates with some
who feel that their identity, their way of life is
threatened today.

Speaker 7 (32:24):
So these conspiracy theories and online radicalization really are the
children of the nineteen twenties KKK in many respects. Ironically,
some white supremacists in the Internet era look back at
the KKK with distaste.

Speaker 11 (32:37):
Here's alexamand different segments of the movement thought others were cringe, right,
like people wearing Nazi armbands or whatever they thought were cringe,
or even the old school clan members like that, that's cringe,
you know, to the younger generations of you know, white supremacists.

Speaker 6 (32:55):
Pot period, kettle period, Black period.

Speaker 7 (32:58):
Regardless, the annan and offered by the Internet has allowed
the alt right to spread these conspiracies, recruit, organize, and
flourish in the online space in such a short amount
of time. Here's Mark Pictavich of the Anti Defamation League
in twenty nineteen.

Speaker 16 (33:13):
And in the past five years, it's really been the
alt right that has been the main engine of the
white supremacist movement in the United States. It was the
rise of the alt right from twenty fifteen to the
present day was the main factor of the most recent
resurgence of right wing extremism, bringing in thousands of young,
newly radicalized white males into the movement. It represented the

(33:36):
biggest increase, the biggest new influx of members to the
white supremacist movement that we had seen since racist skinheads
came on the scene in the nineteen eighties and early nineties.

Speaker 7 (33:48):
There is some speculation that the alt right is in
a decline. However, the impact of the spread of these
ideologies is all too real and very much present.

Speaker 6 (33:56):
In response to the removal of Confederate monuments by local governments,
the twenty fifteen Charleston church shooting, where a white supremacist
shot and killed nine black members, over twenty separate right
groups came together to plan and execute the Unite the
Right rally.

Speaker 7 (34:12):
Organizers stated their intent was to incite a racial holy war.
I mean that is the Manson stuff, with some even
saying that they were inspired by William Pearce's The Turner Diaries,
just like Timothy McVay.

Speaker 17 (34:25):
Why why.

Speaker 7 (34:32):
One common belief that brought all of these groups together
is the great replacement theory. In our last episode featuring
Superman's battle against the Clan of the Fiery Across, you'll
remember that young Chuck Riggs had an uncle who convinces
him that his little league rival Tommy Lee was unfit
to replace him as a pitcher, and that he intentionally
threw a baseball at Chuck as an act of aggression.

(34:55):
All of this was to justify the hatred that his
uncle Matt had towards the boys Chinese family.

Speaker 15 (35:00):
This Lee boy beating it with a baseball gives me
just the angle I've been looking for. Now, look Chuck
and listen carefully. Humm, this kid deliberately hits you on
the head with a baseball. See he was trying to
kid you.

Speaker 12 (35:11):
Oh no, he was, And I told you how it happened.

Speaker 15 (35:14):
He was trying to kid you. I say, I know
this boy and I know his father.

Speaker 6 (35:16):
So the tenets of this conspiracy theory or that there's
a deliberate plot to cause the extinction of white Protestants
and replace them with people of color or different religions,
and it's been used as a recruitment and radicalization tool
for white supremacists for decades.

Speaker 7 (35:30):
Several far right terrorists have made reference to the great
Replacement theory as motivations for their crimes, including the perpetrators
of the twenty nineteen christ Church mosque shootings, in which
fifty one people were murdered, and the twenty nineteen Al
Paso shooting, which led to the loss of twenty three.

Speaker 6 (35:45):
Lives, which leads us back to where this episode began
when we told you the stories of two very different
American teenagers. The Conklin Kid is Peyton Gentrin, the perpetrator
of the shooting that took the lives of ten people
at a grocery store in a predominantly black, Buffalo kned
community in May of twenty twenty two.

Speaker 7 (36:02):
It's alleged that Gendron was radicalized online by consuming these
conspiracies and French beliefs only in the last few years
around the coronavirus pandemic Here's alex event.

Speaker 11 (36:12):
And when everybody went online, you know, in response to
all the public health measures at the beginning of the pandemic,
we saw a major spike in engagement with you know,
filent extremists, far right ideas, and so yeah, the Buffalo Killer,
you know, said that that's kind of when he started

(36:34):
to dig deep and go deeper, become radicalized. And like
I said before, this stuff is just not that hard
to find.

Speaker 6 (36:42):
But online isn't the only place this ideological war is
being fought in the pop culture landscape. Some comic based
movies and films are taking on the social issues Superman
once did. Let's look at the Heavyweight Champion and the
comic genre today Marvel.

Speaker 7 (36:55):
Marvel's twenty twenty one Disney Plus series The Falcon and
the Winter Soldier is an analog for what the Superman
Radio Show was doing in nineteen forty six, in that
it was a hugely popular comic book character taking on
social issues in a way that many other forms of
popular entertainment were failing to do, and, like with the
Superman Radio Show, a great deal of thought and consideration

(37:16):
was applied to their creative choices. It also demonstrates an
evolution in the media. Warning spoilers for the series follow.
We were able to talk with the series head writer
and executive producer Malcolm Spellman about his experience exploring the
journey of Sam Wilson aka Falcon as he struggles with
whether or not to take up the Shield as the

(37:37):
next Captain America. Take a listen.

Speaker 5 (37:39):
I knew the idea from the beginning, and one thing
that stayed true all the way through was dealing with
Sam taking on the stars and stripes had.

Speaker 6 (37:50):
To be a big deal.

Speaker 5 (37:52):
It was inescapable, honestly, like we would have had to
have been literally actively trying to avoid the obvious discussion
there of a black man taking on that shield right
with the big stars and stripes of red, white and blue,
with Sam being of an age and young enough that

(38:14):
his mentality is going to be rooted in the modern world, right,
it wouldn't any way that that couldn't be at the forefront.

Speaker 6 (38:23):
What Spelman is referring to here is the reality Sam
Wilson has the face after Steve Rogers bequeaths the Captain
America's shield to him at the end of Avengers Endgame,
who do you feel look at someone else's.

Speaker 4 (38:41):
It isn't.

Speaker 3 (38:44):
You?

Speaker 6 (38:44):
Pick up Sam Wilson's story again and Falcon in the
Winter Soldier, and after much internal debate, he does make
a decision. The faith Steve Rogers had in him isn't
enough to overcome all that it would mean for a
black man to represent Captain America, to be Captain America,
So he returns the shield back to the custody of
the US government. Thank you, Captain America, but this belongs

(39:08):
to you.

Speaker 7 (39:12):
However, it was only a matter of time before someone
sought to covet the extraordinary power which that shield represents.
The US government is quick to find a replacement, not
for Sam Wilson, mind you, but for what had worked
so well for them in the past, someone in their
minds who was a kin to Steve Rogers.

Speaker 18 (39:31):
We need a real person who embodies America's greatest values.

Speaker 6 (39:37):
And with that we get a handsome, blue eyed, blonde
haired specimen of a man named John Walker to don
the stars and stripes. He really is like an early
two thousand Zabracrimie model, isn't it.

Speaker 7 (39:47):
I mean, it's those Russell James Mark They cannot be
argued with. The problem is on the outside, Walker was
the exact replica of what so many people associate with
Captain America.

Speaker 6 (40:00):
But if you remember back to Captain America, the first Avenger,
what truly made Steve Roger special was that he was
not born with super strength, and when he lacked in physicality,
made up for heart and humility. John Walker, a former
soldier struggling deeply with untreated rage in PTSD, is a
deeply damaged man and now he has almost unimpeded power.

Speaker 7 (40:19):
And unsurprisingly he begins to abuse that power almost immediately,
though perhaps not intentionally. Here's Malcolm's filman again.

Speaker 5 (40:28):
And we wanted to make John Walker not a villain.
We wanted to make him someone who very much believed
in the authority that he was representing. But that can
be a problem too, Meaning, you know, John Walker's right
hand man as a black dude, if he in his mind,
there is no way anything he does could be racist, right,

(40:52):
But racism is a very ambiguous thing, and you can
get yourself caught up in situations that may be kind
of And I'm not saying John Walker with racist, but
he definitely embodied the boot of a system that often

(41:13):
has racist tendencies, you know, I'm.

Speaker 6 (41:14):
Saying, unlike Sam Wilson, who sought the council of Isaiah Bradley,
a black soldier who was the subject of American efforts
to recreate the same seron that gave Steve Rogers's power.
He took the field as a super soldier during the
Korean War and was later imprisoned and used as a
blood experiment by Hydra for thirty years.

Speaker 7 (41:31):
It's impossible not to recognize the real history mirrored in
Isaiah's experience. The Tuskegee Experiment. In nineteen thirty two, the
United States Public Health Service commenced a forty year study
involving hundreds of black men with syphilis documenting the effects
of leaving the disease untreated to wreak havoc on their bodies,
all while never informing them of their diagnosis. None of

(41:54):
the infected men were treated with penicillin, despite the fact
that for most of the study it was a whely
available standard form of treatment.

Speaker 6 (42:02):
Choosing to mirror this period, we're in the American government
experiment and on its citizens. It's black citizens, to which
more than one hundred died as a result, acts as
a direct foil to everything Captain America is supposed to
stand for.

Speaker 7 (42:14):
Much in the same way we previously discussed Superman as
the representative truth, justice, and the American way was in
a dynamic tension with the transgressions perpetuated concurrently by the
US government.

Speaker 6 (42:27):
In the end, all Isaiah can offer Sam is all
that remains of him.

Speaker 18 (42:31):
They will never better black man be kept in America,
and even if they did, no self respecting black man
whatever won't be.

Speaker 7 (42:47):
Here's Malcolm's Spelman again.

Speaker 5 (42:49):
Isaiah is the living embodiment of Sam's fears right. Everything
that happened to him is a damn good reason not
to be cap right.

Speaker 6 (43:00):
And we wanted to.

Speaker 5 (43:01):
Make sure Isaiah was never wrong in the series and
never backed off his stands because his stance is legitimate,
and we wanted Sam to Actually we felt like we
would be irresponsible as Black folk if we let Sam
off the.

Speaker 6 (43:18):
Hook for picking up the shield.

Speaker 5 (43:20):
What we did in that last episode and in his
speech was have him acknowledge everything Isaiah was saying is
a reason not to pick up the shield, and have
him say, even in the face of that, I am
going to give it a shot, but if you listen

(43:40):
to what he's saying, there's no certainty there.

Speaker 6 (43:42):
So can an African American be the symbol of an
America that has, since its exception, never acted in good
faith when it came to African Americans. Isaiah Bradley's experience
leads to his belief that things cannot change, and Sam
Wilson's experience leads to his hope that things can. They
are at odds with one another, but both have some
truth to it.

Speaker 7 (44:02):
It's interesting because when we think about the Superman Radio Show,
it presents this version of America that is fundamentally rooted
in tolerance, and Falcon and Winter Soldier essentially asks, yeah,
but is it though? I mean, how can it be
when it's been hostile to a large chunk of the
people who make up the United States. In that way,
it takes a swing at taking on the dichotomy between

(44:24):
the aspirational version of the United States and the reality
all wrapped up in a superhero TV show, Mark Populist Aren't.

Speaker 6 (44:32):
An entertainment typically appeals to the widest audience possible, and
in doing so doesn't always ask the hard questions. But
Falcon and the Winter Soldier proposes some real ones. Here's
Malcolm Spelman once more.

Speaker 5 (44:42):
If you look at the Panthers and Marlins the King
or even later Malcolm X right, there is always an
acknowledgment of all of us people who are struggling, of
all races.

Speaker 6 (44:55):
Need to come together.

Speaker 5 (44:56):
That's a big misnomer of the Black Panthers was that
they hated white people. That's something the media port you know, perpetrated.
But they were standing on them stages with the Hell's
Angels and talking about working with people. So I do
think the Great conflict today is the dominant society, which

(45:17):
is white folk dealing with new struggles that they often
put the blame on people who don't look like them,
and Sam, being a black man, seem like he is
most equipped as Captain America to explain to those people, look,

(45:43):
your struggles are coming, because your struggles.

Speaker 6 (45:45):
Are coming right, and.

Speaker 5 (45:49):
Being able to identify not only would like working class
white folk and say, look, man, if you're struggling, trust
me as a black dude, I can talk to you
about struggling. And that universal mindset he had of where
everything needs to go today, I mean it has to
go there, right, y'all see the existential battle that's happening

(46:13):
in this country.

Speaker 7 (46:14):
Marvel's show and Spelman here is presenting an aspirational present
and future that owns our individual and collective experiences and
also looks for what connects us.

Speaker 6 (46:23):
Yet, we're not going to be the first or the
million who pointed out that we're living in a moment
of extreme ideological division.

Speaker 7 (46:29):
It makes them think of the time period that gave
birth to the government and media sponsored version of the
American way, and.

Speaker 6 (46:35):
We have powerful media forces working to disseminate diametrically opposed
views about what that means.

Speaker 7 (46:41):
It's almost like Superman in the Clan's versions of the US.
Now have these superpowered megaphones screaming into every aspect of
our collective lives. How did we get here?

Speaker 6 (46:52):
The mainstream media, especially the news media, has always cultivated
an air of objectivity so as to not appear biased.
Americans are becoming more and more divided, perhaps more so
than at nearly any other time in American history, with
the exception of the Civil War.

Speaker 7 (47:06):
Ideologies are becoming increasingly extreme, which is in part due
to and also contributes to a rise in partisanship in
the news media. This has brought to light a whole
host of moral quantries for the media at large.

Speaker 6 (47:17):
Are we platforming free speech or hate speech?

Speaker 7 (47:20):
Do we present both sides of an argument even if
one side of set argument calls for the stripping of
the rights of others?

Speaker 6 (47:26):
What if the person speaking where's a suit? And was
elected by a subset of the public. Here's Matthew Delmont,
the professor of history at Dartmouth College, with a take
on where we are today.

Speaker 19 (47:35):
We have plenty of examples in our present media of
people who have explicitly white nationalist viewpoints that align, for
all intents and purposes.

Speaker 6 (47:44):
With the history of the KKK.

Speaker 19 (47:47):
The fact that black newspapers could call that racist in
nineteen forty and then today we'd have mainstream papers calling
it racially charged or racially tinged give this a sense
that we've actually gone backwards in terms of how honest
were willing to be about racist And I think if
we can't be honest with what's in front of us,
we will never be able to actually address it. So

(48:07):
one of the things we can take from history is
the importance of really reckoning honestly with what it is
that different groups are advocating for in the present.

Speaker 6 (48:16):
One way members of hate groups have become legitimized and
normalized by the media is by running for public office.
One of the most prolific to do so was David Duke,
the former Grand Wizard of the ku klux Klan. Duke
unsuccessfully ran for office several times as a Democrat, including
for President Barbara. Duke changed his political affiliation to the
Republican Party in nineteen eighty eight, leading to his election

(48:36):
to the Louisiana State House of Representatives.

Speaker 7 (48:38):
Duke was very coded in his language, insisting that he
wasn't a white supremacist, but in fact, to quote white
civil rights activists. He also used thinly veiled racism masquerading
as economic revance while acting as a legislator.

Speaker 6 (48:52):
Duke's Statehouse colleague Rongomis, stated that he never blatantly spoke
of race as a factor, but referred to the growing
under class. He used the tried and true demagoguery of
class enemy to sell his message excessive taxpayer's money was
being spent on welfare, school busing practices, affirmative action, and
set aside programs.

Speaker 7 (49:11):
Though he launched unsuccessful campaigns for the US Senate in
nineteen ninety and governor of Louisiana in nineteen ninety one,
he was still able to secure press coverage. During his
gubernatorial campaign, Duke said that he was a spokesman for
the white majority, and The New York Times reported that
he equated the extermination of Jews in Nazi Germany with
affirmative action programs in the United States.

Speaker 6 (49:34):
It's important to note, however, that members of both parties
condemned Duke for his rhetoric. At the time. President George H. W.
Bush called Duke a racist and a charlatan, which is
an old timy word for a trickster, a con artist.
That's a word we got to bring back to the zeitgeist, right, I.

Speaker 7 (49:49):
Mean, I believe we should. Here's the thing about Duke.
Though he found mild political success, he was never completely
normalized in the media because he was a will to
express racist views. Even if his views were shared by
members of the electorate or their legislators, few are willing
to admit so publicly, making Duke appear to be an abnormality.

Speaker 6 (50:11):
This reticence to openly share these views for many may
well have been because the superman version in the American
way we've been talking about still had a hold in
the public sector, so disavowing white supremacists was a given
in public life.

Speaker 7 (50:24):
Eventually, Duke somewhat faded from view, and for the most part,
few political figures openly shared the kind of rhetoric he
was known for, particularly at the highest levels of government.

Speaker 20 (50:36):
Until the US has become a dumping ground for everybody
else's problems.

Speaker 6 (50:48):
Thank care, It's true.

Speaker 20 (50:53):
And these are the best and the finest. When Mexico
sends its people, they're not sending their best.

Speaker 21 (51:00):
They're not sending you.

Speaker 6 (51:02):
They're not sending you.

Speaker 20 (51:04):
They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're
bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime,
their rapists, and some I assume are good people.

Speaker 7 (51:18):
That was Donald Trump announcing his bid for the Republican
presidential nomination. Courtesy a C.

Speaker 15 (51:23):
Span.

Speaker 6 (51:24):
And here's Joan Donnovan, the director of the Technology and
Social Change Research Project at Harvard Kennedy sharen Son Center.

Speaker 14 (51:30):
If you remember, one of Trump's very first announcements about
becoming a candidate, he had made racist statements about immigrants
and the border and Mexicans in particular. One of the
things that I saw on message boards. Within minutes of
reacting to that, white supremacists were saying, he's done, he's

(51:54):
come out in public, his campaign's over. You know what,
a waste, essentially. But then over the next few weeks,
as Trump didn't apologize, as he didn't back down, as
he doubled down on his platform and on his racism,
the feeling and the attitudes on this message board began

(52:16):
to shift. People started to say, you know, maybe we
should go out and start talking about immigration. Let's not
tell people that were white nationalists, but let's participate in
the public conversation. People obviously want to hear from us.

Speaker 7 (52:31):
What Donald Trump had from the beginning that David Duke
did not was media legitimacy.

Speaker 6 (52:36):
And we've seen how important media savvy is.

Speaker 7 (52:38):
A high profile real estate mogul from New York City
in the nineteen eighties and nineties, Trump successfully branded himself
with his name in big gold letters on buildings across America,
as well as NBC's ratings struggernaut reality series The Apprentice
and It's Been Off Celebrity Apprentice, which Trump produced and
started throughout the two thousands.

Speaker 6 (53:00):
So it came as no surprise that from the moment
Trump descended that gold escalator in twenty fifty to announce
his presidential bid for the nominee of the Republican Party,
the media was not only willing but eager to cover him.
At every turn.

Speaker 7 (53:11):
Trump garnered national media attention from the jump. He also
earned the endorsement of the aforementioned David Duke, who he
notably refused to either acknowledge or condemn. CNN s Jake
Tapper asked Trump directly for his response.

Speaker 21 (53:27):
Will you unequivocally condemned David Duke and say that you
don't want his vote or that of other white supremacists
in this election. Just see you understand, I don't know
anything about David Duke. Okay, I don't know anything about
what you're even talking about with white supremacy or white
supremacist So I don't know. I mean, I don't know
did he endorse me or what's going on?

Speaker 6 (53:46):
And so you're.

Speaker 21 (53:47):
Asking me a question that I'm supposed to be talking
about people that I know nothing about, and certainly I
would disavow of I thought there was something wrong, but
you may have clips in there that are totally fine,
and it would be very unfair. So give me a
list of the groups and I'll let you know. Oh okay,
I mean, I'm just talking about David Duke and the
Koklux client here.

Speaker 7 (54:03):
But oh yeah, who's the kkkon who is that?

Speaker 11 (54:06):
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (54:07):
The thing to note here is that the media was
now essentially being utilized to disseminate these views widely because
of the scale and nature of this campaign, and the
fact that a figure this notable wasn't condemning Dup directly
is evidence of a significant cultural shift, meaning the mass
media and political dissemination of the American way is fundamentally tolerant,

(54:27):
was no longer necessarily the order of the day.

Speaker 7 (54:30):
Also, the mainstream media was in a sense at sea
with how to respond to a candidate that just wouldn't
disavow David Duke. Then, of course, after becoming the nominee,
Trump hired Steve Bannon, chairman of Breitbart News, which was
a far right opinion and commentary website. They hired him
as as chief campaign officer. Breitbart has regularly propped up
white supremacist viewpoints and routinely features memes of pepul the frog,

(54:52):
which the Anti Defamation League included in its hate symbol
database in twenty sixteen as the unofficial all right mascot.

Speaker 6 (55:00):
Trump's election to the office of President of the United
States only pushed the normalization of the alt right further
into the mainstream. You'll likely recall that he had this
to say at a press conference after the Unite the
Right rally in Charlottesville in twenty seventeen. But you also
had people that were.

Speaker 20 (55:16):
Very fine people on both sides.

Speaker 7 (55:18):
During a presidential debate leading up to the twenty twenty election,
Trump was again asked to condemn white supremacists, specifically the
Proud Boys militia group.

Speaker 6 (55:25):
What do you want to call him?

Speaker 20 (55:26):
Give me a name, give me a name, stand back
and stand by.

Speaker 6 (55:34):
But I'll tell you what. At a congressional hearing investigating
the January sixth attack at the Capitol, remember the Proud
Boys elaborator how Trump's comments impacted their recruitment efforts.

Speaker 22 (55:44):
After he made this comment, Enrique Terrio, then chairman of
the Proud Boys, set on parlor standing by sir. During
our investigation, we learned that this comment during the presidential
debate actually led to an increase in membership from the
Prowd Boys.

Speaker 10 (55:57):
Would you say that Proud Boys numbers increased after the standback, stand.

Speaker 11 (56:01):
By common exponentially, I'd say tripled, probably with the potential.

Speaker 15 (56:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (56:07):
And I know it feels like YadA, YadA, YadA. We
know all this. But the point of this is that,
regardless of policy or politics, Trump's refusal to condemn and
in many ways openly embrace members of the all right
and white supremacist groups has amplified their agenda in the
public sphere, using the most powerful platform in the world,
the office of the President of the United States. And

(56:29):
this is a radical shift for what we had seen
for years before with the dissemination of the Superman version
of the American way, and it opens the door to
the KKK version of what it means to be American.

Speaker 6 (56:42):
And at the same time, the mainstream journalistic media was
in some ways acting as a passive mechanism, inadvertly or
not platforming these groups in their ideologies as within the
realm of normal political discourse.

Speaker 7 (56:53):
Largely again because they had no roadmap for this.

Speaker 6 (56:56):
We should also highlight that in twenty twenty, George Floyd,
six year old black man, was murdered brutally by a
white police officer. This was one of many instances of
police brutality, in this case, murder caught on camera, and
in that moment, the world rose up in protest.

Speaker 7 (57:11):
The Black Lives Matter movement, which of course had existed
for many years, was at the center of many of
the protests, protests which chunks of the media, though not all,
denoting a split, often covered as violent or angry, particularly
be of visual cues, meaning the images that they used
to show what was happening in the protests. Was it

(57:34):
peaceably marching or was it burning cars? This further exacerbated
the division in the US.

Speaker 6 (57:41):
It felt as if the more American society at large
began to openly speak about the truth of race and
racism in the United States, the more some media outlets
and political figures doubled down on racist and bigoted language.

Speaker 7 (57:52):
Which eventually impacts policy, the courts, and our laws. And again,
in the midst of this, large sections of the news
media seemed lost.

Speaker 6 (58:02):
So in essence, the work that the pr Agency had
to do for the KKK in the nineteen twenties to
get the message out there is now being done for
them on the national stage. Here's George Lakeoff, a retired
cognitive science and linguistics professor from UC Berkeley.

Speaker 23 (58:15):
It's a very very important amplification when you bring hate
speech into the mainstream and the mainstream media via it.
Even if you report it and say it's wrong, you're
bringing it in. Don't think of an elephant. You think
of an elephant.

Speaker 2 (58:32):
Now.

Speaker 7 (58:32):
Of course, the American news media is a business, and
that business is interested in making money.

Speaker 6 (58:38):
The New York Times recently interviewed an employee at Fox News,
the polarizing network owned by billionaire Rupert Murdoch, who claims
that the network's goal is to highlight grievance, as it
brings in the highest viewership. The more angry and afraid
people are, the more they tune in.

Speaker 7 (58:52):
Of course, this is true for every news network, and
they all consciously or not deploy tools to escalate that
fear and anger.

Speaker 6 (58:58):
Former president of CNN Worldwide Jeff Zucker, who also oversaw
The Apprentice as the president of NBC Entertainment, found himself
looking to solve an identity crisis for the network. With
Fox News and MSNBC essentially owning the Republican and Democratic
partisan viewership, respectively.

Speaker 7 (59:13):
His solution, according to a New York Times magazine article
published in twenty seventeen, was to lean into controversy. The
piece also notes that quote Zucker is a big sports
fan and from the early days of the campaign had
spoken at editorial meetings about wanting to incorporate elements of
ESPN's programming into CNN's election coverage. This is, of course,

(59:33):
during the Trump campaign, quote he told reporter Jonathan Maller
that quote the idea of politics is sport is undeniable,
and we understood that and approached it that way. So essentially,
these networks are helping to turn viewers like us into
a bunch of rabid soccer or football if you're outside
of the US fans storming a stadium.

Speaker 6 (59:52):
One key here is that not entirely unlike the algorithm,
news that creates an emostly reactive response sees more viewers.
Thus we see more stories creating that reaction.

Speaker 7 (01:00:02):
In terms of Fox, Tucker Carlson is the network's most
popular host. His primetime show regularly draws in approximately three
point two million viewers. The Times reports that has quote
on air provocations have been part of a painstaking, data
driven campaign to build and hold boxes audiences.

Speaker 6 (01:00:19):
The Guardian reports that Carlson has pushed the concept of
the great replacement theory and over four hundred broadcasts of
his show.

Speaker 7 (01:00:25):
The great replacement theory, as we've talked about, was depicted
in the Superman Radio Show of nineteen forty six, and
it played a role in the motivations of the Buffalo
Shooter in twenty twenty two. Here's Alex and mend again.

Speaker 11 (01:00:38):
Our work is much harder when great replacement becomes a
mainstream political talking point. Right it has broken through the uh,
you know the line, it's no longer something you have
to spend time digging out of stormfront. It's on talk radio.

(01:01:00):
That is scary, And yeah, makes our job, which is
trying to find people who are really becoming radicalized and
radicalized towards violence and intervening in their pathway, a lot
harder because then arguably it's spreading like that more more
people are engaging with this stuff than before.

Speaker 6 (01:01:22):
A quick twenty twenty three update. Carlson was a popular
host of the network before he parted ways with Fox.

Speaker 7 (01:01:29):
During his time on Fox, he had significant reach and
potential impact.

Speaker 6 (01:01:34):
Many Americans tune into Fox as their primary news source.
But in a recent defamation lawsuit, Fox News his own
lawyers claimed in federal court that Carlson's show should not
be held to the same journalistic ethics and standards as
other news media. A quote from the judge's ruling states
that quote, as defendant notes, mister Carlson himself aims to
challenge political correctness in media bias. This general tenor of

(01:01:57):
the show should then inform a viewer that he is
not stating actual facts about the topics he discusses as
and is instead engaging in exaggeration and non literal commentary.
Give it mister Carlson's reputation, any reasonable viewer arrives with
an appropriate amount of skepticism close.

Speaker 7 (01:02:15):
Quote Wow, they just incrase it, and the truth is
as discussed. Fox's competitors are also very much steeped in
POV and opinion. Now, we do not want to create
a false equivalency, but a twenty eighteen Pew Research Center
study indicates that many Americans can no longer discern the

(01:02:35):
difference between fact and opinion, and that may be related
to the changing discourse in our public sphere.

Speaker 6 (01:02:42):
But how can a network that claims to be news,
that puts it in the name of the network that
so many viewers depend on for their news exist in
this capacity, you might wonder.

Speaker 7 (01:02:51):
That's a complex answer, but one factor may be a
now defunct government policy many people do not know about,
called the fairness doctrine.

Speaker 5 (01:03:00):
See.

Speaker 7 (01:03:00):
In nineteen forty nine, the United States Federal Communications Commission
the SEC enacted a policy that required all the holders
of broadcast licenses to present controversial issues of public importance
in a manner that fairly reflected differing viewpoints.

Speaker 6 (01:03:16):
It also had some interesting rules around allowing political opponents
time to respond if there was to be an official
endorsement or opposition of a candidate, and rules around personal
attacks that lasted for a while after the fairness doctrines end,
but that no longer apply.

Speaker 7 (01:03:31):
The fairness doctrine is also interesting in that we often
fondly remember a time of more fact based journalism with
less opinion, But we should also note that there have
been various times in American history where big sections of
the news media was pretty partisan. That said, only a
few of us remember the eighteen thirties, so maybe this

(01:03:52):
doctrine really was having an impact on the overall tone
of journalism.

Speaker 6 (01:03:56):
So why did this doctrine go away? Well, first, let's
talk about just some of the factors that helped set
up cable news as we now know it. In the
nineteen seventies, a young TV producer by the name of
Roger Ales was a media advisor to President Nixon, and
there had been reporting that he helped conceive of the
idea of what would effectively become Fox News in that
era via memo entitled a Plan for Putting the Gop

(01:04:17):
on TV News, which in essence proposed a pro conservative
administration news.

Speaker 7 (01:04:23):
Yeah, you know, some like me might call it basically
state run media under the guise of capitalistic free market media.
But also that made lots of money. Anyway, there are.

Speaker 6 (01:04:33):
Some who've speculated that if conservative media outlets had been around,
maybe Watergate would not have gone the way it did,
necessitating Nixon's resignation. But we know what happened there.

Speaker 7 (01:04:44):
Yeah, and e Els also advised President Ronald Reagan. Now,
Reagan was not a big fan or a believer in regulations,
as we know. Also, he had a particular way he
wanted his policies presented to the American people, and one
imagines thoughts on how the Iran scandal google it was covered.
In the same period of time, around nineteen eighty five

(01:05:04):
to nineteen eighty seven, Reagan also met with Rupert Murdoch,
founder of Fox News in this era, right before Murdoch
became a citizen of the US in nineteen eighty five,
a requirement for US network television ownership. In fact, of course,
you know, Reagan met with lots of people, so in
any event, ultimately the fairness doctrine ended under Reagan's administration.

(01:05:28):
His sec in nineteen eighty seven There was an attempt
by Congress to codify it before that, but Reagan vetoed that,
saying the doctrine impeded free speech.

Speaker 6 (01:05:38):
Take a listen to this clip of a Congressional hearing
in nineteen eighty seven. As the president of the Westinghouse
Broadcasting Television Group, Thomas Goodgain explains his concerns about ending
the Fairness Doctrine via c SPAN.

Speaker 24 (01:05:50):
I don't think that we as broadcasters have the right
to go on and express our own views, the views
of an individual party, our individual organization, individual dual special
interest group, without providing the opportunity for others to have
that same up right on a.

Speaker 6 (01:06:06):
Now, maybe true that Reagan did feel that the doctrine
impeded free speech, and again he did not like regulations.
There's also some question as to whether the fairness doctrine
would have saved us from the hyper biased media that
we see today. One reason is that it applied to
broadcast news, which was how many people consumed their news
in that era, and not cable. But it did open
the door to the rise of hard right talk radio

(01:06:28):
like Rush Limbo, which set the tone for things like
cable news personalities and.

Speaker 7 (01:06:33):
To be fare. No one was thinking in terms of
cable news the way it exists today, much less social media, podcasts,
the Internet at large. Attends by some in Congress to
reinstate the doctrines suggested that it should apply to cable
and satellite news as well, but whether or not it
would have, those attempts have failed.

Speaker 6 (01:06:54):
There are also some questions about how effective he was
and if it was in fact used to silence opposition
of high ranking political officials, and if it may in
fact curtail free speech. It's complex, but its end is
certainly a part of a trend of limited regulation or
none in our most consumed forms of media. It had
an impact on radio at local and national broadcast stations,

(01:07:16):
which is a whole other complex rabbit hole. And though
it's silly to think this one thing got us here,
it speaks to a sea change and an open door
to extreme and often politically and economically motivated bias in
what we call reporting across the political spectrum.

Speaker 7 (01:07:30):
There are lots of other factors, of course, like media
ownership and a general move towards cults of personality versus
trusted sources of information, but they all trend towards a
limit to anything close to neutrality and news, causing a
disconnect between opinion or bias and fact. I think what's
clear is that much of what is currently called news,

(01:07:51):
particularly in the popular formats, is certainly no longer driven
primarily by what we call a public good.

Speaker 6 (01:07:58):
It's also true that this doctrine existed in a world
where there were only a few games in town. And
an argument is that now you can get alternate opinions,
but the truth is most people aren't, So how can
the news behave responsibly in the midst of this? There's
been no real answer.

Speaker 7 (01:08:13):
Oh and by the way, Rupert Murdoch founded the Fox
Broadcasting Company, a broadcast network which would have been beholden
to the fairness doctrine, in nineteen eighty six, went to
primetime in nineteen eighty seven, in the same year that
the fairness doctrine went away. The nineties then saw the
rise of these bias cable news organizations, one of which was,
of course Fox News, with Roger Ayles, who had also

(01:08:36):
produced Rush Limba's TV show, acting as its CEO.

Speaker 6 (01:08:40):
See it all wraps up into a nice little propaganda
bo right, Well, actually is it propaganda? Here's doctor bailing Shaw,
dean of the College of Communications at California State University
in Fullerton, on the difference between public relations and propaganda.

Speaker 3 (01:08:54):
So, public relations is about building relationships between organizations and
the people that are affected by organizational decisions. Propaganda is
sharing information that is typically one sided at best, completely
false at worse, in an effort to get people to

(01:09:15):
believe in whatever it is that you're trying to get
them to believe in. Propaganda originated actually back with the
Catholic Church. The term at that time did not have
the negative connotations that it has today. It was really
about propagating the faith and spreading the faith of the Church.
But over time the term propaganda has really taken on

(01:09:36):
negative connotations, where it's being used to describe efforts by
people and by different organizations to promote whatever it is
that they're promoting through whatever means necessary to get there.
Very machiavellian, if you will, in the sense that the
efforts don't have to be professional or ethical, or even

(01:09:58):
for that matter, truthful.

Speaker 7 (01:10:00):
So labeling what looks like to be news organizations as
quote propaganda is not necessarily an overstatement, though in many
cases it may be a stretch.

Speaker 6 (01:10:09):
But it isn't just news media that's a problem. It's
how we consume news and what we consider credible. We
also must acknowledge the fact that, according to a Pew
Research poll from twenty twenty one, one third of American
adults claim they get their news from Facebook. Social media
is mainstream media at this point. The concept of the
media spinning stories for their own profit or gain is
not new, but in these highly polarized times, when conspiracies

(01:10:32):
like the great Replacement theory have driven people to commit
violence like in Buffalo, we need to take a careful
look at how these messages are being disseminated, and.

Speaker 7 (01:10:39):
As many are getting their news from social media and online.
It's important to note that one thing that may have
contributed to the disconnect between the imagined boy from Great
Bend and the real one who murdered ten innocent people
in Buffalo could be as small as the role the
Internet played as the starting point of his violent act.
In fact, a lawsuit alleges that social media companies promoted

(01:11:03):
the white supremacist to propaganda that led to the radicalization
of the Buffalo mass shooter. Here's Alex and mend again,
and so.

Speaker 11 (01:11:11):
It's just we've got to move with the challenge, and
it's never going to be settled, right, These threats are
always going to exist, They're always going to respond to
whatever we do to try and prevent them, and you
just have to keep going because otherwise, yeah, it's violence,
chaos and racism. So I guess there's just not really

(01:11:34):
another option. We just have to kind of keep our
heads down and finding solutions.

Speaker 6 (01:11:39):
Finding such solutions is something of the experts we've interviewed,
Christian Piccolini and alex and Men both.

Speaker 7 (01:11:44):
Emphasized the change that needs to take place lies, at
least in part, in the hands of major tech companies
and how they currently operate and moderate. A Men's organization
targets ads and Internet users they believe might be radicalized
with things like tools to deal with anger.

Speaker 6 (01:11:58):
Christian Piccolini, a former White Supreme, now works to deradicalize RTE,
an experiment that highlights the importance so tech company's involvement
in diverting search engine queries away from extremist sites and
towards more helpful resources.

Speaker 10 (01:12:10):
We in my organization, the Free Radicals Project, we ran
an ad campaign on social media that was very effective
for about three weeks, we purchased AdWords that were all
the keywords that you know, a white supremacist might search
for online, or somebody who's being radicalized might search for
things like did the Holocaust happen? Or black on white crime,

(01:12:32):
and we bought those AdWords, and then we placed an
ad against those AdWords, so when people searched for them,
an ad would come up in their Google browser or
on Facebook or on Twitter that said, you know, exposing
the Holocaust click here, And it almost seemed as if
it was something that you know, a white supremacist would
want to click on. And what it did was when

(01:12:53):
they clicked on it, it took them to a special
website that was run by our organization that showed them
how their search ended up in tragedy for other people.
And actually, during that three weeks where we just had
some free advertising, we were able to increase our traffic
by twenty six thousand percent and we had an eight
hundred percent increase in the number of people that actually

(01:13:14):
reached out to us for help disengaging from an extremist movement.

Speaker 7 (01:13:17):
The potential for measurable change in the online space is there,
but as we learned from the fairness doctrine. For profit
platforms and corporations are pretty unlikely to do with necessary
to keep harmful content from proliferating if it's suiting their
needs and without oversight.

Speaker 6 (01:13:33):
Changes have occurred. For example, Facebook banned Holocaust denial in
twenty twenty. So there's that, but there's slow moving And.

Speaker 7 (01:13:43):
This is my take, it's all complicated by sort of
an appropriate desire for free speech, which is meant to
protect the press and us as citizens as a check
against an authoritarian government. But free speech and hate speech
are pretty frequently conflated.

Speaker 6 (01:13:59):
These and that's a key for us as we've been
examining how the conflicting ideologies we've been talking about throughout
this podcast are playing out today. Both the idealistic version
of the American way that the Superman radio show represented
in the Klan of the Fiery Cross storyline and the
white supremacist ideology that the Clans spread are complicated by
the nature of our new media landscape. Let's control in

(01:14:20):
a sense.

Speaker 7 (01:14:21):
On the one hand, when we look at the nature
of the government and mass media propagation of the American
way that we saw in the thirties and forties, it
really could be described as propaganda. I mean, we're taking
out some nuance there, we are.

Speaker 6 (01:14:34):
It was also during a war, and propaganda is one
of the chief weapons in any good wartime arsenal. But
we ask ourselves, given the reasons for creating that narrative,
is there such a thing as good propaganda? I mean,
could we use a dose of a culture of consensus
at the moment, in the face of all this proliferation
of white supremacist messaging in the media, online, and even

(01:14:54):
in political office, how do we combat it? Ultimately, fighting
propaganda with propaganda is likely the way to go, And
even if there was a group that wanted to take
that approach, they'd be hindered by the lack of the
published trust in the media as a whole.

Speaker 7 (01:15:07):
Yeah, we do not trust the media anymore. We don't
trust institutions anymore. A twenty twenty one Reuter's Institute report
found that just twenty nine percent of people in the
US said that they trust the news. So the days
of proliferating the idea of an idealized American way are
likely well passed, and the media really isn't doing much
to alter that narrative or regain public trust. Here's Felix Harcourt,

(01:15:31):
a professor of history at Austin College.

Speaker 1 (01:15:34):
Part of the problem we face today is in the
fact that American cultural memory is very short, especially when
it comes to things that people would rather forget. And
so in the wake of the nineteen twenties Clan, we

(01:15:56):
see the emergence of this narrative around a heroic press
that stood staunchly against these hateful bigots and were able
to kind of stem the rise of hatred in the
United States. It becomes this kind of very laudatory narrative

(01:16:18):
that gets replicated and replicated. And so when we look
at then how journalists today are going to approach these questions,
they're not really able to learn from these historic realities
because those historic realities have been obscured by this screen

(01:16:40):
memory of journalistic heroism.

Speaker 7 (01:16:45):
In other words, the rosy image that the media mapped
onto our national narrative is part of what diluted trust
to begin with. And it certainly doesn't help that the
US ranks fifty forty four countries when it comes to
effective media literacy. Education. Media and news literacy is critical,
especially when assessing information found on the Internet. Here's Matthew Delmont.

Speaker 19 (01:17:06):
One of the things as a university professor that worries
me most greatly right now is this moment has also
been a tremendous attack on expertise. If we can't even
determine who to trust his authorities, then it's very difficult
to evaluate the kind of truth comes or being in
advanced which.

Speaker 6 (01:17:21):
Leads us back to where this journey began. How do
powerful forces choose to use their influence? That power is,
of course fictional in Superman's case, but very real in
terms of the influence of those who control how the
character is depicted.

Speaker 7 (01:17:33):
It feels like Superman's clash with the Klan was so
long ago, and yet, as we just discussed the villain
in that story, supremacist ideology is still deeply entrenched completely.

Speaker 6 (01:17:44):
And it's not an understatement to say that no other
time in history since Superman first emerged has it felt
like American society could use his brand of truth justice
in the American way more. Unfortunately, for a boy in Blue,
he may have lost some of the cultural relevance we
associate with him in the nineteen forties.

Speaker 7 (01:18:04):
Speaking of the loss of cultural relevance, are you up
for a little game of remember this.

Speaker 25 (01:18:10):
You know, Yeah, I can just barely convince you it'll
be fun. Mark, there's a version of our Boy in
Blue for every genre known to man.

Speaker 7 (01:18:21):
Let's run him.

Speaker 6 (01:18:22):
Down like fantasy. Well, then you'll be taking a trip
to the nineteen eighties, which were dominated by the hit
or Miss Christopher Reeves Superman films featuring some villains like
the world dominating Generalizade and the daffy nuclear Man. You've
already broken all the laws of man, Luther. Now looks
as though you've broken the laws of nature too.

Speaker 7 (01:18:40):
I am a rom calm woman, I am not ashamed
to say it, and no one did it better than
the nineteen nineties Lois and Clark. The New Adventures of
Superman essentially just a plucky workplace comedy wherein Lois and
Clark fall in love, break up, and then they fall
in love again.

Speaker 19 (01:18:55):
Mark, have a little paranoia with your coffee this morning, Lost,
Now don't start well.

Speaker 6 (01:19:00):
I love a more grounded coming of age story like
stand by Me of the Sandlot. So the two thousands
wbcw crossover hit Smallville is perfect for me. Mimicked popular
teen dramas of the era, like Dawson's Creek.

Speaker 7 (01:19:13):
I have no reason to staying small Ville. You have
me okay, I think you like the Romans too, because
there's so much smoochies on that show. Hey, how about
something in the little bit of Everything for Everybody department?

Speaker 6 (01:19:26):
You mean like the CW's currently airing iteration Superman and Lois,
which focuses on the couple's family dynamic because they deal
with the superpowers possessed by their teenage sons and features
some father and son finding villains and such. You completely
disobeyed me. I was just trying to help.

Speaker 4 (01:19:42):
I told you I didn't need your help.

Speaker 3 (01:19:44):
On top of that, why didn't you just fly away?

Speaker 7 (01:19:47):
Do you like the saturation mark then?

Speaker 13 (01:19:50):
Might? I?

Speaker 7 (01:19:50):
Oh well, I'm gonna recommend it anyway. Can't stop me
recommending Zack Snyder's Darker taking Batman V's Superman Cohen Donal Justice,
featuring Henry cavill as the Man of Steel, and it
also has a notorious fight with the Batpleck that leads
to one of the most delightful truths in all time
superhero rivalry, with the utterance of one siple word.

Speaker 6 (01:20:14):
Essentially, Superman is still a powerful cultural figure, but can
also be mapped into almost any genre. So what does
that say about his core character? Is depicted today is
Rick Bauers, author of the book Superman Versus the KKK.

Speaker 17 (01:20:27):
This is a neutered version of Superman, and Superman, of course,
goes through changes throughout the years. I like to look
back to those adventures of Superman TV shows, where you know,
the champion of the oppressed got changed to truth justice

(01:20:48):
in the American way, and Superman is always working hand
in hand with the politicians and the cops. He's part
of the establishment. Well that was the opposite of what
Joe and Jerry had. Superman was above the establishment. He
was like a watchdog for the establishment. So we've seen
these changes come and go, but every once in a while,

(01:21:13):
that bold Superman comes out. I think a couple of
years ago in DC comics he renounced his American citizenship
and declared himself a citizen of the world.

Speaker 7 (01:21:25):
It's safe to say these films and series weren't exactly
prime real estate to have Superman take on the controversial
American social issues of the day, like gun violence or
the AIDS crisis, or racism in America. Not like he
was once able to do.

Speaker 6 (01:21:39):
One key way that Superman has changed, as Bowers mentioned,
is that he no longer carries the weight of representing
the American Way. In fact, he renounces American citizenship in
the nine hundredth issue of Action Comics in twenty.

Speaker 7 (01:21:50):
Eleven, Mark, can you tell us what the Man of
Steel had to say about this decision?

Speaker 6 (01:21:54):
In a quote from the comic Truth Justice in the
American Way, It's not enough anymore. The world's too small.
I intend to speak before the United Nations tomorrow and
inform them that I am renouncing my US citizenship. I'm
tired of having my actions construed as instruments of US policy.

Speaker 7 (01:22:11):
Wow. So yeah. The comic book version is a very
different take on Superman than the one we met in
the radio show or most modern adaptations. He's, like Rick said,
in some ways, more in line with the character that
Jerry and Joe originally created. He's more willing to stand
up against the status quo and care about people in

(01:22:32):
a very personal way and for what he believes is right.

Speaker 6 (01:22:35):
It also speaks to a changing cultural perspective of the
American Way and the United States reckoning with itself and
his actions on the world stage. For many of us,
we were no longer the heroes of our own minds
and in the world, and equivocally as we were following
victory in World War Two.

Speaker 7 (01:22:49):
Yeah, and now in a global media market, we might
also introduce some healthy curiosity about whether DC's decision was
financially motivated, which, as we've seen, social changes often linked
to financial benefits when it comes to brands. But it's
also important to note that some railed against this change.
They called it hating America, and for some, the response

(01:23:12):
to this perceived change in America's self view has been
a return to the nationalistic perspective that the KKK won't spread.

Speaker 6 (01:23:18):
This change in Superman's identity also opens a lot of
interesting doors in terms of how the Man of Steel
is represented in the world and as an extension of Americanism.
If the rumored Superman projects from jj Abrams and Tanahasse
Coats were to come to fruition.

Speaker 7 (01:23:32):
These projects in development would feature a black Superman for
the first time.

Speaker 6 (01:23:36):
Here's Julian Chandliss. He's a professor of English and history
at Michigan State University and something of a comic book Officionado.
If you have a black superman.

Speaker 26 (01:23:45):
The reality that that black character with so much power
might be seen by a global audience as a savior
in a way that they wouldn't necessarily be understood in
the American cons text is very real, especially if you
said it in the past, like the nineteen thirty nineteen forties, right,

(01:24:06):
because there'd be this tremendous fear that this this member
of this race that we marginalize and you know, domestically
has so much power.

Speaker 6 (01:24:16):
But in the rest of the world who.

Speaker 26 (01:24:18):
See the United States or or understand the sort of
geopolitics in the Cold War where the United States is
in opposition to them, or United States is a part
of the global order that they find problematic that.

Speaker 6 (01:24:32):
That idea.

Speaker 26 (01:24:34):
Is really appealing, Like, yeah, a super powerful black guy
is going to be more on our side and they're
going to be on this side of the imperialist when
the colonized or whatever word you want to use. And
so you know, that's that's a story choice that the
creators have to make, and a lot of it has
to do with like the contexts they choose to set
the story. But even if they said in the contemporary period,

(01:24:55):
that would still be an undertow of that, right, like,
how this character be understood in the global South versus
how this person might be understood, especially in the context
of the United States struggling with systemic anti black violence
from the police and like, you know, questions of crime

(01:25:16):
and being like that. It would be a really complicated
story to tell, and it would be really interesting, but
it would be really complicated because there's these obvious ways
where the potentiality of that character to be a change agent, right, Like,
what what would that character do if they were pursuing justice?

Speaker 15 (01:25:35):
Right?

Speaker 26 (01:25:36):
What would that character do? What would that black Superman
character do they were pursuing justice? Right, that that would
be That's That's a seemingly simple question, but it elicits
a lot of complicated emotional responses depending on who hears it, right,
So it it opens the door to a lot of
story potential.

Speaker 6 (01:25:57):
A quick twenty twenty three update, for the first time,
a Jewish actor, David Coren Sweat, has been cast as
Superman in James Gunn's Superman Legacy. The Tanahasee Coach JJ
Abrams project has not moved forward yet, but it's still
rumored that it's possible. At present it's interesting now to
go back and think about Superman's evolution from two D
comic book character to wartime mascot to advocate for social

(01:26:19):
change in America, and how a pivotal moment in comic
book history paved the way for so many more.

Speaker 7 (01:26:25):
It's not a definitive correlation, but art, entertainment and superheroes
in particular can affect society's outlook on certain issues, especially
when it comes to telling human stories, breaking stereotypes, and
representing a vast array of different cultures than people.

Speaker 6 (01:26:39):
Here's Felix Harcore.

Speaker 1 (01:26:40):
Again, something like Superman versus the Clan is a piece
of entertainment, but it's a piece of entertainment that reflects
the values of its creators and the fundamentally, yes, it
does serve a positive purpose to have those values communicated
through this popular entertainment, because you are going to reach

(01:27:03):
an audience, and you are going to influence that audience
in much different ways than if you are simply printing
an op ed and a newspaper or standing on a
street corner shouting.

Speaker 7 (01:27:16):
And here's Tulian Chandlers.

Speaker 4 (01:27:17):
At some level, the superhero takes that tradition of a
kind of cultural exemplar are and it magnifies it to
deal with what a really complicated, big problems. But that hero,
that superhero can handle those problems. He has the power
to deliver on the values that America's believes are true.

Speaker 7 (01:27:42):
What is the meaning of Superman's truth, justice and the
American way in the modern era? We asked a number
of our experts.

Speaker 19 (01:27:52):
For me personally, truth justice in the American way means
that those terms have to apply to everyone. Again, that's
influenced by my own perspective as a black historian working
on black history, that so much of what I research
is the vast gap between what America looks like on
paper versus the lived reality of how Black Americans and

(01:28:15):
other minority and oppressed groups have actually experienced this country.

Speaker 4 (01:28:20):
Because truth just as in America Way for decades was
universally associated with like a kind of proof positive of
the centrality of American ideology as being right and other
iologies being wrong. That's why it's a really problematic statement,
right because everyone in the United States can hear it

(01:28:44):
and think about ways how Yeah, the America weight isn't
necessarily always delivered truth or justice.

Speaker 22 (01:28:51):
For me, I think they do still have meeting, but
I think we are a little bit numb to them.

Speaker 6 (01:29:00):
It's kind of like my mom, right. My mom gives
me the same advice over and over again.

Speaker 26 (01:29:04):
It's great advice, but I've heard it so often.

Speaker 9 (01:29:06):
I feel numb to it.

Speaker 22 (01:29:08):
The same is true for that that phrase, truth justice
in the American way.

Speaker 27 (01:29:12):
I think it matters who is saying it. I think
it matters how it's said.

Speaker 4 (01:29:17):
But when I hear you say.

Speaker 27 (01:29:18):
That, because I'm I'm a fan of comics, because I
know superheroes, it has a positive connotation. It has kind
of an actionable tone to it. I feel like this
is something that a lot of us can collect around,
can mobilize around, but the undercurrent can be a little threatening.

Speaker 7 (01:29:43):
The reality is truth justice, but especially in the American way,
means something different to everyone. So is it true? I mean,
there's likely no real answer to that, because it's certainly
true in the desire that many have for this country. However,
has it been true in the lived experience of many
of the citizens. Clearly not.

Speaker 6 (01:30:02):
It's impossible to call the vitriol in our current public
sphere good. But is it in a sense forcing us
to bring the reality of what was always happening in
many areas and many lives to light in a way
is the fact that we no longer live in a
country that we'd call post racial healthy.

Speaker 7 (01:30:19):
On that note, I want to share in exchange I
had with wend you All, author of Inventing the American Way.

Speaker 2 (01:30:25):
One other thing that just occurred to me that I
think I was implicit in a lot of what I
was saying, but that when you were talking about superheroes
as being sort of idols or ideals, I mean, again,
I think it's important to understand that a lot of
the stuff that I'm talking about often it was I
don't know any way to not put this sort of academically,

(01:30:51):
but it was. It was prescriptive. It was cast sometimes
as description what was meant to be prescriptive. It was
sort of painting a picture of a world that maybe
was a little bit more unified and a little bit
less bigoted than it actually was, and trying to call
it into existence by saying that it was there. If

(01:31:15):
that makes any sense, it does.

Speaker 7 (01:31:17):
And I think, you know, listen in my mind again,
really just as like I'm a film critic and a
producer and so it's very much a layman's citizen's lens.
Is that on the one hand, we have this constitution
and I think they meant it, I really do. They
were looking at John Locke and they were like, yeah,
that makes a lot of sense. They had this ideal

(01:31:39):
of we hold these truths to be self evidence, and
then they immediately break it when that has never healed
and can never heal. So those are that both things
are true. This thing that America is always trying trying
to call that into existence, right, an artist in particular
are always trying to call that into a system, and

(01:32:01):
it inches closer and then it goes back. But the
other thing is fundamentally true. We are a white supremac
nations founded by white supremaists.

Speaker 2 (01:32:09):
Both both are both And yeah, exactly, but you.

Speaker 7 (01:32:15):
Need but like you need the artists to try and
call it in I believe, but you also need the truth.
You know, if you go to Berlin, they're not hiding
from their history.

Speaker 2 (01:32:23):
Right, And I like, I like that line which I'm
I can't quite can't remember exactly, but from Martin Luther
King's line about you know, it's not the archi history
whatever is long, but it bends towards justice whatever whatever
that line is. But the notion that things are getting better,
but very slowly and there's a lot of setbacks along
the way. Yeah, I at least like the hope that's true.

Speaker 7 (01:32:46):
This exchange with Wall felt like it captured so much
of the diconomy, the polarities we've been talking about on
this podcast. We ask ourselves which version of the American
way is real, the one that the KKK disseminated or
the one the Superman Radio Show did in the Klan
of the Fiery Cross storyline. The answer is obviously both,

(01:33:08):
because there are people who believe in them and act
from those beliefs.

Speaker 6 (01:33:12):
In recent days and weeks, it seems like the idea
of who are what we are as a nation is
defined by our courts. Obviously, the Supreme Court is not
beholden to the people or who we want to be
as the people. But the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg
described the evolving nature of the we the people during
a lecture series at the Clinton Foundation that really encapsulates
what we're talking about here.

Speaker 13 (01:33:32):
Our Constitution begins with the words we, the people of
the United States, in order to form a more perfect union.
So think how things were in seventeen eighty seven. Who
were we the people? Certainly not people who were held
in human bondage, because the original Constitution preserves slavery, and

(01:34:04):
certainly not women whatever their color, and not even men
who own no property. So it was a rather a
lead group, we the people. But I think the genius
of our constitution is what Justice Surgod Marshall said. He

(01:34:27):
said he doesn't celebrate the original Constitution, but he does
celebrate what the Constitution has become now well over two centuries,
and that is the concept of we the People has
become ever more inclusive. So people who were left out

(01:34:51):
at the beginning, slaves, women, men without property, Native Americans
were not part of we the people.

Speaker 4 (01:35:02):
Now all that.

Speaker 13 (01:35:05):
Once left out people are part of our political constituency.
And yes, certainly a more perfect union as a result of.

Speaker 6 (01:35:17):
That, no matter which way we slice it. As we
sit here today, we are a nation on the brink
of reckoning with who we were, of who we are,
of who we want to be, and the pain that
will go as we transition from one to the other.

Speaker 7 (01:35:29):
We are which provides room for both hope and fear
on my part because it is my true belief that
the only path forward is to embrace and own our
past and all its complexity and ugliness, and lean into
the aspiration. The real beauty, the rarity of the aspiration
of the United States. It's the reality of who we
are coming into dynamic tension with who we wish to be.

Speaker 6 (01:35:53):
And we've seen movement towards that, you know, but you know,
he who forgets history is doomed to repeat it. And
America as a nation has rarely, if ever reckoned with
its own history.

Speaker 7 (01:36:04):
That's true. And as much as we're seeing movement towards
that aspiration, there's pushback. Right.

Speaker 6 (01:36:11):
It feels as if with every passing day there's a
new progress downwards instead of upwards. And the things that
have been fracturing this nation, there have been no sutures
to help pull it back together.

Speaker 7 (01:36:23):
Superman's American way as a cultural narrative doesn't exist, not really,
not in the same cohesive fashion. And you know what,
maybe that's a good thing because it left a lot
of people in real shite out. So how can we
create a new myth together? When I think of this nation,
I think of it almost like a human being, as individuals.

(01:36:44):
We need to have an ego, and I mean that
in the psychological sense, we need an identity or just
really wouldn't function all that well in the world. But
that identity cannot own us or it becomes maladaptive, it
becomes destructive to us. And as much which is, we
need an identity that we can feel good about and love.
We are healthiest and most whole when we integrate and

(01:37:06):
find a way to accept and embrace even those parts
of ourselves that are broken and not pretty, maybe even ugly.
Getting a little esoteric here, but I guess that's my
hope for us as a nation, that we can call
the aspiration into being by owning the truth. My hope
for listeners is that there's just even a small moment

(01:37:29):
where how we form our identities and how the media
impacts that starts to feel a little more clear, so
that we can have that identity but also have some
discernment about it, not so we feel powerless in the
face of it, but the opposite, so that we can
see these systems at work, take what's nourishing and leave
the rest.

Speaker 6 (01:37:48):
When I was a kid, we used to refer to
America as the melting pot, which always felt weird and
ultimately a disservice to the various people who came here
and we're born here and who traveled both intentionally and
against their will. And then it evolved into the mosaic model,
where we're not turning everyone into the same slightly brown sludge.

(01:38:12):
We're now leaving all of the colors and facets and
wonders of who these people are and what means something
to them. And now I feel like we need some
third paradigm. You know that to your point, incorporates the
idea of that shadow. Maybe it's more like a sun
dial that's made of a mosaic that's sitting on top
of a melting pot, so that we can somehow come

(01:38:35):
into correlation and reckon with everything that we are, you know.
And in the Clan of the Fiery Closs storyline, the
Superman Rado show producers emphasized that that everyday heroism, the
small and the large choices made by characters in the
story who were not superheroes, we might need more of
them today.

Speaker 7 (01:38:53):
So which vision of America one, which one will we
ultimately live in, Well, that's very much up to you.

Speaker 6 (01:39:02):
Amid twenty twenty three addenda. Much of this podcast was
outlined and interviews conducted at the close of twenty nineteen,
with bursts of intermittent work in the ensuing years. As mentioned,
we've seen sizeable cultural shifts from twenty nineteen to now,
so this is very much history in the making. Many
factors and even highly significant events and changes we simply
weren't able to touch on here, certainly not a depth.

Speaker 7 (01:39:23):
There's also the fact that these oppositional ideas of what
it means to be American were planted on colonized lands.

Speaker 6 (01:39:30):
As to this crisis of American identity. Even in just
the last several months since we've recorded our final episode
in late twenty twenty two, significant events have occurred.

Speaker 7 (01:39:39):
The consequences of all of these factors are very much
still playing out.

Speaker 6 (01:39:44):
More recently, on the less consequential side, there are more
MCU movies, TV shows, and dollars.

Speaker 7 (01:39:49):
On the more significant side, there's been a fresh reckoning
with how to cover the upcoming presidential election.

Speaker 6 (01:39:56):
Unprecedented indictments against a former president sure also falling quickly.

Speaker 7 (01:40:01):
Leaders of the Proud Boys have been convicted of seditions
conspiracy related to the capital breach on January sixth amid
hundreds of sentences resulting from that event.

Speaker 6 (01:40:11):
There's been a CNN leadership controversy related as to how
we produce the quote unquote.

Speaker 7 (01:40:16):
News, and there have been a slew of proposals in
state legislatures and state and national court cases intended to
limit rights, with some succeeding. This speaks to the painful
divide and crucial moment we're in right now.

Speaker 6 (01:40:33):
We'd like to pull out one moment, in particular, with
a portion of justice Katanji Brown Jackson's dissenting opinion in
the Supreme Court case that effectively ended affirmative action in
college admissions, she wrote, no one benefits from ignorance. Although
formal race linked legal barriers are gone, race still matters
to the lived experience of all Americans in innumerable ways,
and today's ruling makes things worse, not better. The best

(01:40:57):
that can be said of the majority's perspective is that
it proceeds ostrich like from the hope that preventing consideration
of race will end racism. But if that is its motivation,
the majority proceeds in vain. If the colleges of this
country require to ignore a thing that matters. It will
not just go away. It will take longer for racism
to leave us, and ultimately, ignoring race just makes it

(01:41:17):
matter more.

Speaker 7 (01:41:18):
When we say we need the truth and the aspirational
version of America, we mean we need the truth in action.
Otherwise aspiration is just loose bits of paper resting over
killing wounds. I'm Mark Bernardin, I'm Roth Cornett, and this

(01:41:39):
has been Fandom presents Superman Versus the KKK. This podcast
was hosted by Mark Bernardon and Roth Cornett, Created and
executive produced by Roth Cornette, with executive producers Max Dion
and Michael Chang, with producers and writers Nancy Rosenbaum, Loretta Williams,
Taro Bratch, Michelle Dunn, Eileen gal Billy Patterson, Gordie Loewen,

(01:42:04):
Roth Cornette, and Mark Bernardin. Our audio engineer is Brett Boehm.
Our researchers are Lauren Schwen and Elana Strauss. Our fact
checker is Stephen Crechon. Recording was done by Forever Dog
Productions and Voice Tracks. A very special thanks to Caleb Schneider,
Sasha Pearl River, Brett Weiner, Eric Eisenberg, Sonny Benson, Anne Brasher,

(01:42:29):
Shanna Whitlow, Joe Starr, alvitaal Ash, Dina Crowder, Danielle Radford, Spencer,
Gilbert Lawn Harris, and Paige Chew.

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Which American Way Wins? | Episode 05

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