Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The following show contains adult content. It's not our intent
to offend anyone, but we want to inform you that
if you are a child under the age of eighteen
or get offended easily, this next show may not be
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(00:22):
to those show hosts. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hey everyone, and welcome to Fifty Shades of Bullshit. I'm
your host, Christine Lalan, and this is the podcast where
we uncover the truth about online dating.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Now let's begin.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
Hey everyone, I'm Christine, and this is Steve.
Speaker 5 (00:48):
Hello. Yeah, this is Christine, I suppose and this is Steve.
I was just waiting here.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
We are whatever. Well, welcome, this is fifty Shades of
Bullshit and we are really everybody comes back, so welcome.
Hey Steve. I'm so so so happy you're here with
me today. I got five of those things in there.
I'm going to work on doing this good.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
We'll make it through all of them. I'm pretty sure
we have something in store for.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Y'all we do today, we're going to talk about emotionally
immature people who show up in a relationship emotionally immature.
There was an article that I found that was by
Kathy and Ross Petras, and they wrote an article said,
people who are emotionally immature always use these twelve phrases,
(01:40):
says these communication experts. So I thought what we could
do is kind of go down the line. I've had
some experience with some emotionally immature people, and quite frankly,
I know I have been one in the past. I
think that when you're when you're unsure about how to
(02:00):
really communicate properly, or when you've you know, come from
you know, you got trauma in your life, you tend
to be very defensive and not quite mature enough emotionally
to handle, you know, real life situations with a person.
I know that I couldn't before. So I'm guilty of it.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
I'm sure I have been to and can I say something?
Speaker 4 (02:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (02:27):
I actually, as I read the title prepping for this
conversation today, I began to think, where would one need
to stand to assess or evaluate someone's maturity level. Wouldn't
that in and of itself be a position of judgment
and when doing so, aren't you in a immature state?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (02:49):
I do think that when it comes to this kind
of thing, I think that being aware of the way
that somebody he communicates with you can be like a
like a an indication of whether they could be not
in the right place to have those conversations. But I
(03:10):
think that it can be a real growing situation for
a couple that if one is significantly seeing this type
of behavior, that by getting some kind of communication help
or relationship help, I think it can be a stepping
stool to grow.
Speaker 5 (03:31):
Don't you write absolutely, I actually think that is a
mature way of relating to it. I'm curious, so can
we can we actually begin to explore what maturity looks like. Firstly,
that you know, what I was saying is if I'm
sitting in judgment of you, I could be doing so
(03:54):
from an immature place because I'm wounded or hurt. But
the way and I don't I don't think you would
intended that when you created this this topic today. But
there is, like, in reference to what you just said,
a way of observing that allows us to evaluate something
something What is the something you know? Like maturity is
(04:17):
almost as such an interesting.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Maybe evaluating the way that they come back because because
let's talk about some of these things that they are
talking about. Because I think that even though I may
not be one hundred percent emotionally mature, I mean, I
have a sense of humor of a twelve year old
goddamn boy. So you know who says that I'm one
(04:44):
hundred percent mature, But I will say that in certain circumstances,
when I do have a conversation with somebody, I do
see these type of behaviors that's on the list, and
I do think that maybe when you're come let's just
say my situation. Let's just say I'm trying to have
(05:04):
a conversation with somebody telling them how I felt in
and it's in a way that they that they did
something or didn't do something, and I want to have
the conversation about how I'm feeling, and then they get
into this kind of place that they're talking about or
behaving in the way that this list is talking about,
(05:26):
so that I don't think I would be judging them.
I think I would be thinking, wait, there are going
to be instances that we're going to have to really
dive into these things without you being overacting or oversensitive
or certain things that are on the list.
Speaker 5 (05:46):
Yeah, you know what I mean. Yeah, And in reference
to what you were talking about before, I think the
willingness to grow and not just observe the other person
in comment about them, but to observe oneself as well
in relationship. So I'm not just pointing the finger and
saying you're being immature or you are expressing you know,
(06:11):
we're going to go through this list soom, but you're
being something defensive or whatever. That in a way is
almost me deflecting and not looking at the we part
of relationship.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
Yeah, I say them again because I want to hear
that again.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
Yeah, there's I think there's a way that we must
come to our relationships with a willingness to observe both
ourselves and the other. Like if we have that space
of curiosity and willingness and this desire to grow, then
we're not observing the other and blaming them for their immaturity,
because that in and of itself is kind of immature.
(06:48):
Like I'm just pointing the finger at you and saying
you need to change this.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Well, what if they're not pointing a finger. What if
they're saying, hey, I was hurt by something you did
to me. Yeah, okay, and that person freaks the fuck
out and starts going blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, point
you're pointing, your pointing, your pointing, So how do you
deal with the fact that then the then say me,
(07:15):
just throws the hands up and goes, okay, you can't
have a mature conversation with me about what I'm feeling.
I remember having this conversation with you when I made
you feel bad, and I took it and talked to
you and had a conversation and was mature about hurting
your feelings and didn't hurt your feelings continually because of it.
(07:39):
But when the person is saying to you, hey, you know,
you blew me off and you hurt me and the
things you your lack of being nice to me is
really kind of throwing me off. And then they go,
what you know what I mean? Okay? Anna Stage said,
(08:00):
what if you don't realize you're not being mature in
the relationship. Well, that's what we're going to talk about.
That's a great question.
Speaker 5 (08:06):
Yeah, well, like what if I but what that brings
me back? What you just said the responsibility you said,
there has to be a willingness or an invitation to
have the conversation. Like if I come to you and
I said, when you did that thing to you, whatever
you did you for me, now I'm just kind of
coming at you rather than I felt this way. Are
(08:27):
you willing to talk about it right? Talk about it right?
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Exactly? Well, let's let's talk. Let's dive into this really quick.
We've all dealt with emotionally immature people. They get defensive
at the at the slightest criticism. They constantly defect blame,
and when they do try, they then tried to guilt
you into feeling sorry for them. Emotionally immature can be
a growing problem. Whether it's in your personal or professional life,
(08:52):
communication could be a real struggle. So, number one, it's
not my fault they refuse to take responsibility. These people
who are often don't take responsibilities for their own actions
when there's something goes wrong. So what do they do.
They extricate themselves from the situation by immediately stating that
(09:12):
they're not to blame. What do you think about Say,
say you Steve said to somebody, okay, your behavior hurt
my feelings or made me feel like you didn't want
to be around me, and they immediately say, not my fault,
it's you. You did this, you did that. How how
do you deal with that kind of situation?
Speaker 5 (09:31):
Yeah, that's a that's a good question, because I I don't.
I can't encounter that much. It really is a outright
deflection of the way that I feel in a denial
of my experience and my feelings. You know, I'm lucky.
I don't have very many people in my life that
would just do that. But I think there is a
way of saying, of inviting someone into a conversation that
(09:56):
might that might have someone want to deflect or you know,
like drives up someone's own fear. And you know, I'm
trying to think of when when might someone say that,
who's who's triggered?
Speaker 4 (10:07):
Or or well, I had a conversation with somebody last
week and I said, Hey, I'm feeling this way. I'm
feeling like, you know, uh, maybe this isn't going well
or or I'm being ignored or something. I don't remember
(10:29):
exactly what it was, but I had a conversation with
somebody and they immediately said, what do you know it's
your problem, your feelings. Uh, it's I'm not to blame
for how you take how I behave. That's not okay,
you know, Yeah, Mickey says. Micky says, y'all are talking
about regular relationships, right, not lifestyle relationships, correct, because in
(10:53):
some lifestyle relationships, a little brad or baby girl would
be immature. Yes, in the lifestyle there are and baby
girls and.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
Things, and that's role play. That's actually a consensual way
of engaging where we agree that you're going to be
this way with me and we're both going to get
pleasure from it or it's going to be a game
that we play. So yeah, it's a great way of
putting it. But I also want to step back and
say that there are times when someone will say something
(11:25):
and they're really projecting onto you their own wounding, you know.
So there might be times where it's appropriate to say, hey, listen,
you're projecting that onto me that has nothing to do
with me, which is another way of saying, that's not
my fault. So I you know, I love these points
that we're going to be talking about today because there's
a way to look at it where, yes, for someone
(11:45):
to outright just deflect the way that you feel. Yeah,
that is immature, but there is also a ways my saying,
there's also a way of responding to things sometimes when
you actually look and say, you know that actually has
nothing to do with me. That is you just kind
of projecting your ship onto me.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
And here's the thing though, if you were in a
loving relationship and a relate person a person B, person
B says to A, this is how I'm feeling. Person
A says, hey, that's your own bullshit. You're projecting it
on me. Now, who's wrong? Here's my here's my thoughts.
(12:28):
A knew that B came from trauma and that there's
going to be times that they're going to have issues.
A needs to fucking help. Okay, okay, So so B says,
you're hurting my feelings. I'm being hurt in the situation.
A says, well, let me talk about this with you.
(12:50):
What did I what could what did I do that
hurt you? Okay? I see how I could have hurt
you that was not intended that way. How can we
work together so that you are feeling more secure in
your feelings so that this doesn't happen again?
Speaker 6 (13:06):
To me?
Speaker 4 (13:08):
That is a healthy relationships.
Speaker 7 (13:11):
A mature health, evolution of the conversation, and just to
play devil Devil's advocate here, there can be times when
someone's issues keep reoccurring in a relationship and it's like, listen,
you have to stop projecting that off to me.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
This is not you know. So I don't want to
make blanket statements, and I don't want to I don't
want to diminish what they've written in this article is
actually really interesting, but I think it's it's great fuel
for conversation.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
Missy says, like when a cheater is guilty, it makes
you feel like you're the wrong one. You are the
one that's wrong.
Speaker 5 (13:48):
Yes, because we're going to get to that.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
We are definitely going to get to that, because I'm
going to say that everything pretty much on this list
has happened to me. For my ex husband, he was
a narcissist gas lighter. So almost all of this stuff
has happened to me. Like I literally have had somebody
say something shitty to me and then I say, oh, wait, oh,
(14:12):
are you maybe projecting that on me? And then they're like, hey,
that's you, that's your problem.
Speaker 5 (14:19):
So it happens to stay tuned on that one because
we're kinda further down the list is gas lighting, which
is that's a great example of gaslighting when someone turns
it around. So we'll come back to that one.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
So number two is something that used to happen to
me with one of my exes. I would want I
am a highly sexual person and I want sex every day,
and in my marriage, the only time really to do
that with kids was at night when we went to bed,
and I would want to have sex, and then I
was always the one that was initiating, always the one
(14:52):
and never felt sexy, never feel like he wanted me
because he never initiated. And I would then after a
while start to kind of wait to see if he would,
and then he would just roll over and go to sleep,
and after a while I'd say, hey, we need to
talk about this, and he would do number two to me.
Number two is if you hadn't done that, it wouldn't
(15:16):
have happened. They blame others for like their their problem,
Like they don't take responsibilities for their own, you know,
common tactics towards how they are treating you. So like
in my situation, he'd say to me, well, if you
hadn't ha said anything. I was going to have sex
with you, just didn't wait long enough, And I'm like,
(15:36):
I waited, it didn't happen. Yeah, and then days later
I'd say, hey, I've been waiting. Missy says, what is
up with guys not being present with their wives? Yeah,
unfortunately that happens quite often. So what are your thoughts,
Stevon if you hadn't done that, I it wouldn't have happened,
like or I wouldn't behave this way.
Speaker 5 (15:56):
Well, it's clearly someone who's say that is someone who
is not really taking any responsibility for their own experience
in the relationship or their other or their partners. As
we were reading and I was thinking, well, what is
maturity if we're talking about immature, what I think I
would just kind of riffing here for a moment about
what maturity is. I think it's the ability to include
(16:19):
multiple points of view in a relationship. It's not just
me with you and you with me. It's it's our
shared relationship. It's our shared point of view. It's it's
like together we actually get to look together at different
aspects of our relationship. And if I'm only looking from
(16:41):
my point of view that that would be an example
of immaturity. If I can actually get over into your
world and your experience, then that would be an example
of maturity. So here's an example of you know, this
person will do anything to avoid looking at oneself and
taking responsibility for their experience. And if I could just
(17:03):
add something here. One of the tools that I use
all the time, especially when I'm working with couples, is
the idea of one hundred percent zero. So if I'm
working with a couple, a lot of times people say, oh,
relationships are fifty to fifty, and now that's evolved to
all relationships are one hundred one hundred. Well, I say
it's one hundred percent zero. If I'm working with a couple,
(17:24):
I'm working with one person. I'm talking to them. That
person is one hundred percent responsible for the entirety of
the relationship. Yes, and then if I when I turn
to the their partner, they're one hundred percent responsible for
the relationship. The other person zero. So you get to
be one hundred percent responsible for all aspects of it.
And only when you stand there can you have any power.
(17:46):
You can start to see, well, not just what was
my part in this, like all of it is me.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
I think that relationships are really a ying and a
yang and again going to take about being responsible enough
and caring enough about your partner to understand when they
need more effort towards them, and sometimes then they need
to have more effort in the situation one doesn't. It's
(18:16):
not ever equal. Yeah, one or the other is carrying
the load at different times. And that's what I think.
The mature partnership is realizing that it's a give and take.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
Yeah, and I think I'm going to revise my viewpoint.
That's what you said, was yen and yong. One is
transforming into the other. Sometimes it is fifty to fifty,
sometimes it's one hundred and hundred. Sometimes it's one hundred
percent zero. So us it's being able to navigate that,
but from a global perspective of the whole of the relationship. Yes, yeah,
(18:51):
Shall I read the next one?
Speaker 6 (18:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (18:53):
I would love it.
Speaker 8 (18:54):
It's number three, Okay, number three. I don't need to
explain myself to you. So they avoid account of You
can almost imagine a little kid saying this one. This
phrase is a way for them to avoid any true accountability.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
So uh yeah, I mean these two and these three
actually fit together. It's all a way of also too, yeah,
avoiding looking at what one one normally saying my part
of it, but like I was saying, every like the
whole of it. Understanding your perspective, understanding my perspective, understanding
the impact that my actions have had on you and us.
(19:32):
And I think that's very missing here. And I think
that's actually again back to the definition of maturity is
actually having an understanding of the impact good and back.
You know, if I can see be nice and you
feel great about it, I had an impact on you,
and I can celebrate that.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
I mean, I can't imagine being in Okay, let's just
say that you and I are in some form of
relationship friendship, working relationship relationship, okay, and I say to you, hey,
I'd love to talk about this thing that happened and
(20:08):
or a thing that I'm feeling like may happen because
of the way the things are going. And you were
to turn to me and say, I don't need to
explain myself to.
Speaker 5 (20:17):
You, well, you know it. It'd be like if I
didn't show up today and you called me and said, Steve,
what the heck happened. I was counting on you to
be there are five minutes before where were you? And
I'd say, I don't have to explain myself to you?
That would be ab Third.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
I have heard people say these things. Yeah, they get
very defensive. They have no answer, they have no way
to justify or clearly communicate how what they did, and
they just say they just won't don't want to take
into responsibility, and they say, I don't need to explain
(20:53):
myself to you. I've heard it before. I've heard not
to not only to myself, but to other people. I've
heard people say it, and I think, oh, that's just
a fucking terrible shitty thing to say to anybody regardless.
Speaker 5 (21:06):
Yeah, I you know, Mickey just said in the chat,
how can a relationship grow if people don't talk to
or learn from one another? And you know, I don't
know that I would even call that a relationship. People
aren't growing together. So you know, what is it if
we're not growing together and talking together, Well, it's a
it's acquaintanceship acquaintances or we're I don't know, there's some Yeah,
(21:31):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (21:33):
Yeah, I agree, we're gonna Will you do the next
one too steep, because I'm going to actually copy the
next two and put them.
Speaker 5 (21:41):
So number four. Oh, and I could hear the tone
of voice in this I'm going to say, you're overreacting.
So this is a combination of gas lighting, did something
chat and I can't okay. This is a combination of
gas lighting, trying to make others believe a false reality,
and shifting the blame again. The message they're sending is
(22:04):
you're the problem, not me. Another toxic phrase in this
vein is you're being too sensitive. Now, I'd imagine that
last one comes up a lot when someone is emotional
in a relationship where they're really upset and someone is
unwilling to deal with the emotional content or the emotional
experience that their partner is having, or some reaction. They
(22:27):
try to you're being too sensitive so that they don't
have to feel uncomfortable too, right.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
I think that being in you know, telling somebody that
they're being too sensitive is a really crappy thing to say.
I've been guilty of saying it to men when they've
been really emotional or upset about something. And I'm like
in the past, when I was really you know, not
(22:54):
understanding how to communicate properly, or not really understanding what
it means to for men to be in tune with
both sides of themselves, feminine and masculine. I would say,
I would have I have said, you're you're acting super
sensitive or you're over reacting, are over sensitive, And that's
(23:15):
a really crappy thing to say. Everybody who I've ever
said it to, I'm terribly sorry. I apologize beyond belief,
but I'm aware, I was aware, I made changes, I
worked on me. I think those are valuable things to
do is to I think the first step in anything
when you're trying to be a better person in a
(23:36):
relationship is acknowledging the problem. Acknowledging that you may have
an issue, and if you do, finding the right person
to work on that with. You know, maybe it takes help.
Speaker 5 (23:49):
You know you're reminding me of I guess it's a
discipline or a spiritual practice. It's it's a Hawaiian traditional
and I can't pronounce. It's something like something in their
four statements, and I'm sorry, I don't know what it is.
We can maybe look it up really quick, but it
(24:09):
is a certain traditional Hawaiian spiritual way of being where
it's four statements one the first one is I'm sorry,
so I can please forgive me, thank you, I love you.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Oh my god, I love that.
Speaker 5 (24:25):
Yeah, And it's really there's a beautiful book about it.
And there was one I believe, someone who I wish
I knew their name, but who was a leading voice
in that practice or spiritual concept or way of being.
And the thing about it is, it's not just in
relationship with another person. It's a relationship with self, relationship
(24:48):
with other and relationship with groups or a way of
being in general life. It's something that you made me
think of when you said something. I was just like,
if we could be those four statements like live from
or listen from or look from that, those four statements,
I'm sorry, please forgive me, thank you, I love you.
(25:11):
And I think if we broke all, if we broke
all four down, you know, you look at I'm sorry.
It's not from a place of game blame or shame
or guilt, but like a place of responsibility and ownership.
Please forgive me, actually asking for someone's grace, you know,
and then thank you, thank you for being, thank you
(25:37):
for being, whether you forgive me or not. Whether you know,
like whatever, just thank you and I love you. Like
there's something and I think that now that i'm sharing it,
i haven't really taken a deep dive in it, but
something really beautiful. I think I'm going to actually explore
that something, and if anybody can look it up real
quick and tell.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
Us, if you explore that, we should come back and
have an actual conversation about those. Those a way to
make a really work. I always go into relationship telling people, look,
I'm not perfect. I'm trying really hard. Sometimes I'm triggered
with PTSD because of my trauma. I've been hurt for
(26:16):
a very, very very long time. I'm fifty seven and
I've only been healing for three and a half years,
so I've had good work fifty four and a half
years of pain and trauma, and I come in going, hey,
I'm always going to try to listen to you and
hear you. Sometimes it's going to be hard for me.
(26:36):
If you have patience and love and understanding, we can
get through this. If I start going crazy, like just
their arms around me and say breathe, let's breathe together,
Let's take them at together, and then let's talk. And
if someone can do that with me, they're my key.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
Yeah, And it points to the kind of partner you
might want to have or look for, as someone who
can hold a strong enough container for your you know,
brief sorrow, pain, wounding from your past, whatever it is.
So really someone who's done a good amount of their
(27:15):
own work.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Yeah, I think that it has to be somebody who's
done a lot of work or willing to do the work.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:21):
I'm willing to be there for somebody on their journey too,
because supporting each other through that kind of thing seems
exciting as well to me. But you know, it's I
do know that none of my relationships worked before I
started healing because I just couldn't. I just couldn't. There
(27:42):
was I was picking all the wrong people in my life.
I was attracting all the wrong things, and it just
perpetuated the trauma, perpetuated the pain. And you know, taking
a step back and learning about that and learning what
I need to do to to heal is I think
(28:03):
the biggest part of you know, the whole process for
me anyway. Number five people who say yeah whatever, I'm
guilty of saying whatever. But sometimes it gets to the
point where someone will shut the fuck up or have
a conversation. They just want to blast blast blast their
feelings or or bullshit, and then I'm just like, Okay,
(28:27):
we're not going to have a conversation. So I guess whatever.
I am guilty of this one. Yeah, I guess you know.
I can see it either I want to shut it down.
Speaker 5 (28:37):
Yeah, I could see that there's a mature way to
complete a conversation when it's not going somewhere. And this
is not it.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
No, no, it's not. I'm not guilty of doing it
as much. Now. I don't know if I say whatever
anymore because I haven't been.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
No.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
Actually, I had a situation with somebody recently and I
didn't say whatever.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
What do you see in some ways that you could
actually complete a conversation when it's not going well, even
if it's pausing ahead.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
I'd say, I think that I could think to say,
I hear you, I need to process it. I need
to really process what I'm hearing from you and step
back from how I'm feeling and look at it from
a distance. And I think that if I had time
to process it, that we could come back together. If
(29:34):
you can be patient to let me you know, cycle
this through my head. I think that that is how
I've been trying to do that instead of just going whatever, fine.
Speaker 5 (29:48):
I'm out. I was even thinking of professional relationships where
you could acknowledge. Listen, let's pause this conversation and circle
back right once we've had a time to think about
this and kind of talk. You go over this and
maybe come back to this, or you know, hey, I
know this is heated. Let's cool down a little bit
and get this acide and maybe come back to this.
Speaker 4 (30:11):
Yeah, yeah, I really love number six because this one
is not great. This is one of the biggest ones
of all I think. I think this is the worst one.
This is the This is gas lighting. And a lot
of people tend to say when they're gaslighting, what are
you talking about? I never said that, and you know
(30:34):
for a fact that they did, and they gaslight you
about it. And when someone says something like this, typically
they're trying to evade like responsibility and make you think
that something else happened than what it actually did. And
I think there are a lot of people that are
guilty of gaslighting. What are your thoughts on dealing with
(30:56):
a situation where you're being gaslight.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
And it kind of brings me back to what we
just talked about. It is like, hey, listen, we need
to pause this conversation because this is not working. You know,
if you're not willing to have this conversation right now,
we can set aside and revisit this. Like somebody needs
to step up and be the mature person in the
conversation if someone drops that bomb, you know, like if
somebody's like, what are you talking about? You know, and
(31:21):
maybe it's seems like, wow, I need to reevaluate what
I want to be in a relationship with you. I
can't remind you to actually have a discussion when we
have a disagreement or something like that.
Speaker 4 (31:30):
So yeah, well I think seven ties into six because
it's pretty much the same thing. It's your problem, not mine.
I think that that is, you know, dismissing somebody. It's
the same way as number six. A lot of these
have been divided weirdly, and I think that those kind
of go together.
Speaker 5 (31:52):
Yeah, and circling back to projection, which which happens all
the time in relationship, a mature person would have room
for someone's projections.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
You know.
Speaker 5 (32:01):
It's like, Okay, I think that you're projecting that onto me.
I don't know that that's my issue, but I'm willing
to be here with you in the frustration or the
uncomfortableness and talk to you about it. And you know,
back to what I commented about earlier, at a certain
point of it keeps reoccurring, sometimes, you know, figuratively bonking
someone over the head and saying, stop projecting on me,
(32:23):
that's your shit. Sometimes that's appropriate, and I don't necessarily
think that's immature if it keeps showing up like you're
blaming me for something that has nothing to do with me.
And that can happen too, And in that case it's
the person who's complaining or projecting. They're the one who's
revisiting an immature place.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
What if, though Devil's advocate, the person who's saying, hey,
this is happening, and they're coming at it from here
up here, and the person who's receiving it receives it
as something come completely opposite their mind, took it another way.
Because we all know that we've improved a million times,
(33:07):
that people hear things differently and people perceive things differently.
What if the person who's being said too is says
you know, hey, this is happening, and they're like, wait,
you're just projecting on me. But the person's not projecting that.
They're saying it in a place of this and they're
seeing it at a place of that. Do you know
(33:29):
what I mean? I think a lot of it can
be miscommunication. Yeah, everybody hears and sees things different. You
know that that dress that was that was blue and black.
Some people saw it as like tan and black, and
then one would hear Laurel and one would hear the
other word. It's people hear and see things differently, perceive
(33:51):
things differently. You are going to see a situation from
your experience, and I'm going to see a situation from
my experience, and I'm going to perceive it differently than you.
And it's I think two people coming together just says, hey,
I perceived it like this, the other one is I
(34:13):
perceived it like that, and figure out how they can
meet in the middle to maybe not get into that
situation again, or how to handle the situation better the
next time.
Speaker 5 (34:25):
Yeah, you know, I think that's the power of having
a third in the conversation, which is, you know, whether
it's a couple's counselor or a coach or a friend
who can actually be an outside observer who's not impacted
by something that's coming up, and that could be very powerful.
You know. I find that I really had to learn
(34:46):
how to not take sides when I was doing work
with couples, that I was truly a third observer who
could project things or reflect things back to each of them.
And I want, I want to highlight something because I've
been leading a restorative justice training and it's more for
professional relationships. However, there's something that we were talking about
(35:09):
this past week of higher mind lower mind that when
I am in my higher mind, I am exhibiting my
best qualities of communication and thoughtfulness and all all of
these qualities of my best self, and I'm likely to
have a lot more That is what we could say.
Higher mind is maturity, lower mind is immaturity. So when
(35:32):
I am in that place, I have a lot more
freedom to listen and respond rather than react. When I
am in my lower mind, I am likely to react
and be any one of these immature responses. And I
think being able to recognize that you can actually see
(35:53):
that there is room for both.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
Yeah, Yeah, I think there is room for both.
Speaker 5 (35:58):
Yeah, because we are not always our best.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
I think I don't think we're always our best self.
And we'd like to think that we are. But on
the daily I walk out the house thinking I met
my best self, and then twenty minutes later something happens
and I'm feeling not my best self.
Speaker 6 (36:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (36:17):
People in traffic right, Yeah, I'm.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
Outming in my car, I'm like fucking dancing, I'm having
a good time. Someone cuts me off.
Speaker 5 (36:25):
I'm like that all of a sudden, how quickly we
turn right?
Speaker 4 (36:29):
You never know? So I just went to cruise through
these last ones that eight and nine pretty much go together. Again.
You're making such a big deal out of nothing, and
you're talking about the past. I think that a lot
of times both are invalidating what the person is feeling
(36:51):
and accuse people of bringing up something that is maybe
their mistakes and harping on it. You know, there is
a time where someone as to forgive and move past things,
and if you can't, then that's that's then that may
be your problem to where you have to decide if
that's something you want to stay with.
Speaker 5 (37:11):
Yeah, And this brings to mind something that I see
in relationships A lot, which is scorekeeping. You know, where
someone will use something unrelated to this issue that we
might be talking about, that happened yesterday, three weeks ago,
ten years ago, and they pull it out to avoid
actually dealing with what's coming up because they feel some
(37:31):
sort of shame or guilt. So while you did this
ten years you know whatever. So scorekeeping is a really
way of bringing your immaturity out. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:46):
I think that a little a little too often when
someone's trying to be in a relationship after some major
damage has been done, whether it's been in fidelity or whatever,
maybe the person kind of emotionally or mentally left the
relationship and now they've decided they want to try to
save it. Scorekeeping can be a real big problem. Yeah,
(38:10):
And I think that with that you have to either
really learn how to completely let it go and go
forward in the relationship fresh and new, or if you
can't let it go, you have to walk away from
that because it's never going to be good for you
or the person you're with.
Speaker 5 (38:28):
Yeah. I see this a lot with infidelity, you know,
when I'm working with couples with someone and I really
work hard to take the charge out of some of
the language that is used in the conversation, because what
infidelity is, it's a broken agreement. If we call it cheating,
(38:48):
you know, you say cheating, that's not got a ton
of charge to it. And I have lots of room
for that when people are upset. But what it is
is it's a broken agreement. Unless we can get to
what the agreement was and how it was broken, we
can't actually look at, Okay, this is the agreement that
I broke. Then people are going to reflect and blame
and scorekeep and then use that to punish their partner.
(39:14):
So if you and I were in a relationship and
you broke an agreement, whether it was sleeping with someone
else or anything, unless we address it, then I could
punish you with that and keep saying, well, yeah, you
cheat it or you did this, and that never works
and it will never work if that's kind of scorekeeping
is gonna if you're going to keep this little little
(39:35):
tally in the back, well you did it to me,
then that will never work.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
When when there was infidelity in my marriage, I knew
immediately I could I couldn't get past it. I can't,
I couldn't, and I didn't believe that he had walked
away from the relationship, the other relationship at all, and
I was right. He left and went to her and
they got married, which is fine. Good for them. I'm
happy for them. I really am an example of your trust.
Speaker 5 (40:07):
You never were able to give trust. And it's as
much an issue of whatever was going on with him
as well as with you, because trust is not something
someone can earn. It has to be given. You know,
for sure, they could exhibit behaviors that have them seem trustworthy, right,
but there's no guarantees, no, and trust is a gift
(40:31):
that you give others.
Speaker 4 (40:34):
We don't have much time left. Let's do number ten, eleven,
and twelve. We're the last ones. They I was just
joking is not a good thing. A lot of people
use this passive aggressive kind of behavior to avoid taking
responsibility from what they say. Like someone will say something
and then they're realized that it really hurt them and
(40:55):
they're like, oh, I was just joking, They really weren't.
That Just joking is all bull It's a hundred percent bullshit.
If someone says I was just joking and I'm guilty
of it, I say things sometimes really do meaning it
as a joke, and then realizing who that was very insensitive,
that was not nice, that was not something that was appropriate.
(41:16):
It hurt that person. And then I find myself in
the past saying, oh, I was joking, and then I realized, oh, no, no, no,
I can't, I can't. That's terrible. And I've come back
to say, Okay, I really meant it as a joke,
and I realized it was fucking bad, and I now
do not mean it as a joke. It mean it
(41:37):
does mean something to me, and maybe we should address
it because I did not mean that as bad as
it came across. So I do try to make that difference.
I think that people use that as too much of
a crutch.
Speaker 5 (41:53):
Yeah, number eleven is a big one. You always or
you never always never just always never statements but always
never thinking. It puts us in a position of powerlessness. Yes, yes, yeah,
and then twelve real quick, Yeah, let's do twelve. Yeah,
(42:14):
but everyone does it. I don't know that there's much
we need to say about that, because it really is
avoiding responsibility by saying, well, everybody does it.
Speaker 4 (42:25):
Yeah, that's just justifying something that they want to do
that they really shouldn't be of course they're trying to
be blameless again. They've they've maybe done something wrong and
they know it and they're like, but every it's like
a guy or girl going to a bachelorette party fucking
around and then coming back going I'm sorry, but everybody
(42:46):
was doing it.
Speaker 5 (42:50):
Crazy, not good.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
I think that mainly the take on this whole you know,
emotional and your kind of conversation today is really either
evaluating whether the relationship works for you in a way
that you're willing to accept behaviors but not accept them
(43:14):
as they're going to continue, but accept them as they're
an issue, Let's address them and that's that's let's work
on them together, or you see them as a problem
you can't, you can't get past it, and you move
out of that relationship and work towards bettering yourself another
relationship that could meet those needs.
Speaker 5 (43:34):
Yeah, and I'm noticing one of the phrases that's encountering
a lot in people who are doing some good healing
work is instead of calling someone out, calling them into conversation,
inviting them into conversations. So calling out is kind of
an aggressive way of blaming someone for something they did
(43:54):
or didn't do calling in has you know, it's nuanced
and it's subtle, but it is a way to say, hey,
let's we need to sit down and have a conversation
about this because I'm feeling hurt or upset or something.
And that's becoming a new phrase, but a way of
engaging conversation out of the blame.
Speaker 4 (44:14):
I also think that relationships when you're having conversation where
the person is perceiving it differently than what you're meaning.
Like say, let's just say with my conversation I had
with my friend, I said, hey, this behavior is hurting me.
They said, you're just pointing fingers at me, and I'm
not cool with it. You're just blaming me. And I
(44:36):
actually did not come in it that way at all.
But having some space since the conversation, I can see
how my friend could have perceived it that way. It
got too heated, neither one of us wanted to listen
to the other, and it frustrated me that I was
(44:58):
trying to say, hey, wait, this is not how I
meant it, and that my friend didn't want to hear
it that way at all. And now that I've walked
away from the conversation, I can kind of see their
point of view, and I would approach it differently now,
I think, and you know, taking a moment to understand
(45:22):
each other and then coming back. I think coming back
is really important. I'm not just being avoidant and running
away and not having the conversation. I think time away
is good to come back. If you're not seeing the
other person's point of view, or you're not seeing that
maybe you were responsible for some of it, then I
(45:44):
think there's a problem.
Speaker 5 (45:46):
Yeah. Yeah, I always recognize when things are kind of
zoomed in and you know, myopic and I'm focused on
some issue that I'm upset about, saying, Okay, wait a minute,
I need to zoom out a little bit, slow down
time and a breath, because you know, this isn't the
end of the world, and we are both adults and
we can actually have a conversation. And pretty much any
(46:08):
and all relationships that that I have, I love that.
Speaker 6 (46:12):
I think communication is such a beautiful scene. People take
communication as such a negative thing. Sometimes there's such a
hard thing to do. I really think it's just all
about stopping and trying to perceive what the other person
thinks and feels, and if you can open your heart
to that. It doesn't mean that they're right and you're wrong.
Speaker 4 (46:32):
Just means there's a different perspective that we can all
come at this in different angles and just be, I
don't know, give grace to each other, give grace to
other people.
Speaker 5 (46:44):
Yeah, And sometimes that's that's not just in the form
of verbal communication. Sometimes it's like, you know, with a child,
and you could see this a lot, someone's throwing a
tantrum and you just put your arms around them and
they melt because because what they really wanted to feel
us sense of beyond communicating, it's really in the being held.
(47:05):
So I love you can deal with each other as
adults too. I love that.
Speaker 4 (47:09):
Well, we're out of time. Thank you Steve for being
here with me today. This was a wonderful conversation. I
truly appreciate you.
Speaker 5 (47:18):
Thank you. I love being here. Thank you for having
me me too.
Speaker 4 (47:21):
All of our guests who guess I call you all guests,
your listeners who participate, who comments you know, give your
comments and ask questions. It's beautiful. It's the greatest part
of my week. I absolutely love it. Thank you everybody
for being here every week. Please come back next week,
same time. Same place, and until then, let's just keep
(47:42):
this shit real.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
If you enjoyed this episode, please share with your friends,
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Underscore Bullshit and Facebook at fifty Shades of Bullshit.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Thanks so much for listening, and we really hope to
see you again next week