September 11, 2025 • 49 mins
In this episode, Christine and Steve sit down with Paul Antico, trauma-informed somatic practitioner and founder of Akasa Journeys, to explore how to safely plan a psilocybin journey. We unpack what to look for in a facilitator, how preparation shapes the experience, and why integration matters. If you’ve ever considered mushrooms for healing or self-discovery, this conversation is your roadmap.
Fifty Shades of Bullshit is broadcast live Thursdays at 4PM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Fifty Shades of Bullshit TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Fifty Shades of Bullshit Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
Fifty Shades of Bullshit is broadcast live Thursdays at 4PM PT on K4HD Radio - Hollywood Talk Radio (www.k4hd.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Fifty Shades of Bullshit TV Show is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).
Fifty Shades of Bullshit Podcast is also available on Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The following show contains adult content. It's not our intent
to offend anyone, but we want to inform you that
if you are a child under the age of eighteen
or get offended easily, this next show may not be
for you. The content, opinions, and subject matter of these
shows are solely the choice of your show hosts and
their guests, and not those of the Entertainment Network or
any affiliated stations. Any comments or inquiry you should be
(00:22):
directed to those show hosts. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hey everyone, and welcome to Fifty Shades of Bullshit. I'm
your host, Christine Lalan, and this is the podcast where
we uncover the truth about online dating.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Now let's begin. Hey everyone, I'm Christine and I'm Steve,
and this is fifty Shades of Bullshit.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
How you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I'm having a hell of it.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know much about Mercury
and retrogade, but you're having some technical problem. Yeah, is
mercury anywhere? Oops? You just hit mute now, actually muted there, yep,
and that does hit it again.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Oh my god, my microphone is acting today. It's so
much going on that's crazy today that I just I'm
ready to get high and go to.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
I got to start the day over tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Let's start it over. Well, today's nine to eleven anyway,
so it's a bizarre day. You know. I've bitter sweet
memories of a handful of years ago. I got real lucky.
My first sizzle reel that I ever put together was
four years ago. It was during COVID that I started
(01:49):
my pivot and I started my production company, and I
came up with my first documentary idea. And September eleventh,
twenty one, it was the twenty year reunion. They gave
the City of New York gave me a special permit
to come to New York and film down at the
(02:12):
Memorial where the Trade Center is. I was wow, and
I got to go down with my film crew and
I got it was crazy because I saw a hotel
online that had a picture of a room that you
could see where the Memorial is, and I was like, oh,
(02:33):
I got to stay at that hotel that obviously is
right by the Memorial. I wanted to be able to
shoot from my hotel suite and be able to see
down below, and unbelievable, I got the freaking room that
was in the picture. I manifested that so hard. And
(02:55):
I had a firefighter. His name is Scott Goaches. He's
from Michigan and he is a special train to search
and rescue firefighter. And when nine to eleven happened, him
and a crew of three other guys jumped in a
vehicle and headed to New York and he was part
(03:15):
of the search and rescue team. And yeah, my fucking Mike,
I gotta.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
I gotta.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
I cannot tell you anything, so if.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
I go in and out, that's why I'm Scott went
with us to New York. Was a search and rescue
during nine to eleven. From Michigan, he went through hell
and back. This last twenty some years, he has really
really had PTSD. He's really suffered. He had cancer, he
survived that, he had. A lot happened to him since
(03:46):
nine to eleven. And it's very exciting because he told
me today that the memorial nine to eleven memorial reached
out to him and asked him to come and say
some words for recording that they're going to do, and
some of his equipment that he wore is going to
be in the memorial. So that is really exciting, and
(04:08):
it was probably one of the best sizzle reels I
ever did. It was called Hollywood Dreams The Unexpected Journey.
And the reason why Scott as nine to eleven, you know,
with the nine to eleven thing is in there, is
because he really, you know, hit rock bottom after nine
to eleven with drugs and alcohol and going to jail
because of it, and he just recently got his He
(04:32):
got set up. He didn't do something to where he
just was caught. He got set up for something. I
won't go into it here, it's on my sizzle reel,
but basically he got a spunt. His record sponged of that,
and he has really straightened out his life and he's
a teamster now and so his part of it is
(04:53):
is going from you know, struggling and hitting rock bottom
to changing his life and being in the movie industry.
And it's it's just, you know, my mind is at
you know, nine to eleven and everything that everybody went
through and how much our country has really been divided
since then, and then you know, with all the bullshit
(05:16):
that's happening with my normal shiit.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Today, it's well, take a minute to tell me, so
I missed a week and you interviewed our guest for
part one or I guess that was part two. To
about him. I know a little bit about him from
being on a Facebook group with him. But tell me
how that went, because I haven't.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Funny you're on a you're on a Facebook group with Paul.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Yes, interesting people, but we are in a base group
Facebook group for people with psychedelics.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Well let's just bring Paul
on and we'll we'll talk about it. So Paul and
I are friends through Hi, Paul, thanks for being here again.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
Well thanks for having me back.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
Of course I haven't really met and now it's good
to meet you.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah, Paul is This is Steve. Steve has been my helper,
my co host for a while now, and he is
also facilitator. And Paul is a brother of one of
my best friends, Denise. And Paul and I go back
like I don't know, twelve fourteen years now something like that. Yeah, yeah,
(06:27):
and Paul is also a facilitator. And tell us Paul,
how again, how you got involved in becoming a facilitator
for psychedelics.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Well that could be a long story.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
No, make it short because we got a lot to cover.
Speaker 5 (06:45):
I know you a two minute version. Yes, basically, as
with a lot of people, came out of my own healing.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
No.
Speaker 5 (06:55):
I was after, how can I work with my own trauma?
First of all, I didn't even know what trauma was,
you know that I had it. And then after it
was you know Bessel vander Kolps The Body keeps the score.
That kind of blew that myth and kind of shocking
really to read that book, you know, as I, as
I half jokingly tell people, I was turning the pages, going,
(07:16):
I am so fucked, you know about talking about childhood
issues and stuff. And so but from there, you know,
I started doing my own work. I'd already been doing
therapy and stuff, but you know, it's kind of slow going.
So I ended up getting into psychedelics, made some great progress,
(07:36):
you know, through you know, sitting every single month with
the same aahuasca group for a year. That's what really
moved the needle, and I would say, gave me a
big foothold on my own trauma. And so from there,
you know, I thought I would like to be helping
other people, and so then I wanted to get more
training and so you know, I became certified and compassionate inquiry,
(07:58):
got more mates, you know, really elegant trauma informed way
of working with people. And then also at that same time,
I started learning Rose and meth Ad bodywork, which is
kind of long program which I'm just getting ready to
finish soon.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
I love that.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
So I got interrupted with with the pandemic because it's
a hands on specific body work and you can't learn
it while you're not doing hands on anyway. So you know,
bringing all that to the table, then helping people work
with their own issues and holding space for that and
(08:39):
supporting them, you know, with again, I think that the
therapeutic piece, you know, I have what I call my
four pillars of psychedelic facilitation, is the therapeutic piece, which
is the trauma informed piece. And you know, there's a
lot of ways you can get that. For me, it's
a compassion inquiry. There's a somatic piece, and for me,
again that's Rosenet's at bodywork, a really powerful modality. I
(09:01):
like it because it's just it's one of the few
that's hands on from start to finish. And then the
other piece, of course is your own psychedelic experiences so
that you you know, you're familiar with the territory. And
then the fourth piece is the trans personal psychology, which
is non dual. You know, all the things that you
run into in mystical experience and that kind of thing.
(09:23):
So bringing all that together is a way to support people,
is I guess that's the that's the shorter maybe mediums.
How I got into involved with sitting with people?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Well, Steve, what drew you into becoming a facilitator?
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Well, I actually did not have my first experience with
psychedelics until I was in my fifties, so I had
heard about them. I knew people who experimented with them.
You know. I grew up in the seventies where I
watched my brother smoke pot and I, you know, saw
people stoned and checked out and I was like, no,
I want to check in. And when I heard about
(10:02):
psychedelics not the time. Really, all I heard about was
mushrooms and LSD. Those were the two that I really
heard about. I thought, well, if I ever try something,
I want to try that, But never did. I did
all kinds of personal development and personal growth experiences on
through my late teens into my twenties, thirties, forties, and
(10:23):
then finally my fifties I'm reading again about psychedelics, and
I'm already working with my own clients as a counselor
and coach. I also have a body work background too,
so I do a form of degraded body therapy, and
you know, so we have a similar background. It sounds
like but I didn't start. I don't think it's all
much later. I think, Paul, maybe, had you done any
(10:44):
experimentation in your youth?
Speaker 5 (10:46):
Yeah, as a teenager, I was mister psychedelic. I will,
but I will say that I was doing it as
an escape. I had.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
No intention around it.
Speaker 5 (10:58):
Yeah, how far away can I get from my pain
and my you know, challenges.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Well, let's let's bookmark that and come back to it,
because I know that part of where culturally we're moving
is decriminalization or legalization of these substances. Maybe we'll bookmarket
and come back to that, because you know, I have
concerns personally about people just doing recreational use and non
intentional use. But let's maybe keep the conversation around intentional use,
(11:29):
because I think what Christine really intended, what was, is
that we support people. How do you find someone who
can really you know, they can call you or I
you know, but how do you find someone who is
a legit person who is really knows how to serve
you as someone wanting to explore, Like, I know I
have my thoughts, I'd love to hear yours, and I
(11:51):
know you have a lot of experience too.
Speaker 5 (11:53):
Yeah. Yeah, that's a really important question actually, And so
the first thing I would say is to to to
someone looking is to of course, you want to meet
with the person, and you want to trust your own feelings.
So where your own sensibility? Do I feel safe with
this person? That's probably number one? You know, Do I
(12:14):
feel a little anxious like oh, they're gonna tell me
what to do? Or you know, I would say that's
more of a flag. Yeah, you want to feel comfortable
with you know. And now some people because of their trauma,
they can only feel so comfortable period, you know, but
as as safe as they can feel, you know that
(12:35):
that would be the number one piece. I'd say number two,
you could look at some basic training things or background
and you know, like I mentioned my little four pillars,
see if they cover that ground. But the problem really
is that someone can have a good looking resume really
(12:56):
have much safety within themselves, and so you can't really
completely trust that. It's almost like it'd be worth having
a session or two, like a one hour kind of
a session, just to really get a sense of how
you feel, because a lot of people do. They just
they take the medicine a couple of times and they're
like a medicine told me, I should you know, serve
(13:18):
or be a shot?
Speaker 4 (13:19):
You know what do you think?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
It's the difference between a sitter, a guide, or a facilitator.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
Yeah, so I use those all interchange. People have distinctions,
you know they do.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
I don't. I have some different ideas.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yeah, I'm interested.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
I'm interested. Well to run with this one. You use them?
I have. In fact, I did the first course. I
took a distinguished three different distinctions. A sitter is somebody
who they just make sure you're safe and connected to
the physical universe, water, black, gets whatever, and you're on
(14:01):
your own with how how you dose yourself, what you
take when you take it. So a sitter is just
there for you to support you if you need anything,
and if something goes wrong to you know, to help you.
So a sider may not have much training other than
they're a conscious person who can not be on the
medicine and be there and sit with you. So that's
(14:24):
how I was described what a sitter is. Then the
next phase and used a guide. So I use guide
and facilitator in kind of the same way. A facilitator
or a guide is someone who knows the terrain. They've
explored the terrain themselves. They know whatever substance you might
(14:45):
have been, you might have chosen, they've experienced it. They
know how to dose it, you know how to start
you and titrate you know. They're not going to give
you more than what you can handle. They can actually
sense what it would be appropriate for somebody on their
first pride, you know, first experience, versus someone who's experienced before.
They might know different things about the substances. For example,
(15:08):
if we're talking about mushrooms, different strains have different qualities
to them and a different energetic feel to it, so
so they have a much more rich sense of experience themselves. Plus,
I think there's something really I think the most challenging
part about being a facilitator, and you can you can
speak to this to Paul, is you also you're not
(15:31):
a coach. You want to get out of the way
so they can have their experience and really just trust
that your presence is enough for them to feel safe.
I love what you said, Paul. People have to feel safe,
and when you're you're dealing with an unknown experience, you know,
you know, you've got to feel as safe as you
possibly can. So so those are the two. Now, I
(15:54):
heard of a third that I'm not as familiar with,
but Paul, you might be familiar with. This in terms
of the ayahuasca world, is when a facilitator is on
a light dose of medicine themselves. Someone used the term
a shirpa for they actually are in the experience with you.
They're not responsible for the safety of the environment so
much as be in the space with you and help
(16:18):
guide you or know where you are. So I've heard
that third term, which I think is rather cool, although
I have not done that myself. But as I understand
that some of the shamans or the people in the
ayahuasca world do take a light dose, or a facilitator does,
does that you can speak more to that.
Speaker 5 (16:34):
Yeah, that is from my experience. Also that they do,
I personally could not.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
They must really have had a long journey to be
able to do that type of thing. Now, I do.
I do want to ask you both, what does a
good facilitator actually do during this person's journey?
Speaker 5 (16:58):
Great question to me to answer that It depends on
what's coming up. I mean, there's a lot of a
lot of the work is preparation, really, because a good
preparation can mitigate a lot of potential problems later. And
if you've given people some good framework to understand what
may come up and how it may look, then they're
not as likely to be panicked. I always say during
(17:23):
the experience, you can always remind them, oh, remember we
talked about that, or oh this feeling might come up,
so let's work with that.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
I love that now you brought to my attention that
I do want to go and talk about what the
steps are once you find a facilitator, What the steps
are that you're doing to prepare for this journey. Like
you were just saying, Paul, you know something, you know
(17:51):
if something, if they start to panic, and I can
bring up something that we discussed prior, I'd love to
know what those steps are that y'all do with somebody
to prepare for the optional.
Speaker 5 (18:01):
Well, what I do is, first of all, the main
question I ask people is why do you want to
do this? We start with what is their intention? It's
another way to say that what brings them to psychedelics
as opposed to something else, or what is it that
they're trying to clear up or uncover or heal or
whatever it is. And then from there I'll work in
(18:23):
a kind of a compassionate inquiry way to try and
uncover a little bit of their childhood experiences, the developmental trauma,
attachment issues that are you know, driving what's going on
with them or what they're trying to work on, and
if I can help them make some of those connections.
And ideally, what I'm doing also is I'm deliberately wanting
(18:45):
that to stir the pot a little bit because then
because you never know what's going to show up on
a journey, but if we've talked about it, then perhaps
that might help that to show up. And if that
shows up, then it's it's good because stuff that they
can directly work on and that we've already talked about
it in a framework where you know, they can ideally
(19:08):
bring some compassion to what they had to go through
as a child, for example, and how that can they
can bring some of that compassion, really a felt sense
compassion in the journey that can be hugely powerful.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
What about you, Steve, what's that like for you?
Speaker 4 (19:25):
Some of the things that I do. I'm sure Paul
does something similar. But I want to know what is
safe for them, what is a point for them in
their life experience, so that if something does come up,
I can be a reminder of Like when you're experiencing
something in psychedelic realm, you want to know that your
(19:45):
tethered to this reality. And I think the facilitator is
that form of a tether. They are there to connect
you to what is safe. So if they start going
out there and experiencing fear or emotions, big emotions, first
of all, I want to let them know that's okay,
and I can sit with them in the big emotions too.
But also if they want what might bring them back
(20:07):
to a sense of safety if they feel like they're
gone somewhere and they're starting to get afraid.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
So I have a.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Couple of questions for you both for the preparing for
the journey kind of thing. The first one is what
are some common intentions people try to bring into a
mushroom journey? Is there something that's common, that's a thread
that people try to do well.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
There are a few, but I mean to me, I see,
I'm looking at it through that developmental trauma lens and
the core belief that most people have in some way
that I'm not good enough, I'm broken, I'm bad, I'm wrong.
So whatever it is, it's often related either directly or
indirectly to that sensibility. I mean, sometimes it's something more specific,
(20:59):
like I did have one soon said, I'm starting a
new venture with people and I want some creative ideas,
you know, And that's a little more unusual, I mean,
at least in my world where I'm focused more on
the therapeut again. But mostly people are, you know, dealing
with issues from their past, you know, sexual traumas, all
(21:19):
kinds of things related. But you know that when boiled down,
it takes to something's wrong with me? And how can
they help? How can I help them recognize that they're
okay even with whatever flaws they feel they have.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
I love that. What about you, Steve, is there a
common thread that you hear.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
Well, I'm going to speak to some of the stereotypes
or of the typical things that I know that people,
And I think we're having a cultural shift the more
research that's being done and the more that we find
in the media about the powerful use of psychedelics, the
intentional use of psychedelics, the therapeutic use of psychedelics. So
as that's coming to the foreground, some of what I'm
(21:59):
about to say is fall away. But some of the
times people come in and they want a cool trip,
they want to experience the colors and the visuals, and
so I definitely make sure that if that's there for them,
that they talk about it, and that we could laugh
about it and say, hey, you may or may not
have some cool imagery. You may So I want people
(22:19):
to know that, and I want to get that on
the table right away with some people so that if
they have an expectation and it doesn't happen, they're not
disappointed and spending their whole time searching for the cool
lights and the aliens, or if it does happen, that
they're not afraid that they know that some of this
might happen. So I want to bring forward some of
(22:39):
the type the typical things that we hear about in psychedelics.
So that's one thing that I like to talk about,
and then I also talk about there's so many people
who come to this who are already doing work with
a counselor or a therapist or a coach. So I
might ask them what they're already working on, and I
might also ask them what they've been working on that's
(23:01):
some unresolvable issue that they've been dragging around their whole life.
So that we could just be real and talk about
some of those things. I try try to make it
really accessible and simple to talk about. And again it
points back to it Paul was saying, I want to
make sure that I'm a safe person that they could
share those things with.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
How do you think that someone can mentally or emotionally
prepare for the day and are there like a lifestyle
choices that they can do to help beforehand, like diet, rest,
abstaining from certain things.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Yeah, they call that the set of set and setting.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Oh I do have something I did write something down
about set and setting. So yeah, if you can kind
of pull that into that, that.
Speaker 6 (23:48):
Would beat Can I invite you because I know in
the Ayahuascar world, and I didn't know that you did
so many years with that, there's a lot of prep
if you could speak to that too, because even if.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Someone's not doing ayahuasca per se, there might be some
things from that that people can bring.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
Yeah, well, I have a lot of different views, so
the you know, the ayahuasca world, you know, and I
don't work with ayahuasca as far as with people mushrooms
in NBMA, the ayahuasca experience is really different. It's a group,
it's community, it has its own value, and you know,
I wouldn't even pretend to facilitate something like that. I'm
(24:31):
more the individual therapeutic, you know, let's go in that direction.
So as far as ayahuasca, they have ideeta that they
want you to follow for a certain amount of time beforehand.
And so the things that I find challenging for me personally,
and I don't mean challenging to do, but challenging to accept,
is that the time of having these requirements varies between groups.
(24:58):
What the things that are on the this these dieta
is not the same either. And then if you look
at the actual science, there's a few things that you
should definitely not have, like particularly anything that will affect
an ME or I inhibitor kind of thing like fermented
foods is one of those things that you should. A
(25:18):
lot of the other stuff is purely you know, it's
part of the culture, it's part of the system. It's
not physiologically, it's not going to affect anything that way.
But you know, the way they speak about it is
that it's preparing you mentally. You know, you're not going
to eat salt or sugar. If you do eat salt sugar,
(25:40):
it's not going to hurt anything. If you believe it's
going to hurt something, well then it probably was. So
it's one of those things. It depends on where you're
coming from. It's a respect in a sense for the process,
but to me, it's kind of arbitrary as to what
it is. You know, I remember when I was doing
(26:00):
some of my ayahuasca. You know, they say you shouldn't
need pork. You know, in between the two days, I'd
be sitting there with carnitas. You know, I just you know,
I felt like I need some serious nursement, and so
I wasn't quite following that kind of dieta But I
(26:21):
speaking a little more to the literalness of it, but
there is you know, it's good, and you know the
saying that everyone's probably heard the journey starts when you
decide to do it, so that is definitely the case.
It's percolating, it's going, and so any little habits that
you can do that can help the process getting your
mind ready over time, could be little bits of meditation
(26:43):
every day, writing a little journal every day, a specific diet,
you know, I don't think is you know for me,
I don't. I'm not really big on all of that.
I remember the first Sikauasca journey I did, I was
like a fanatic. Oh I got follow the diet exactly much.
The difference well, I mean, as I did it further
(27:05):
moving along, I just wasn't. Yeah, it was Dennis Mechinna
that kind of turned me onto all that because he
had a website called ayahuasca dot com, which I don't
know if it's still up there anymore. But yeah, the
whole thing about ayahuasca foods to really avoid and things
not that it doesn't matter from a specifically medical, you know,
(27:26):
physiological point of view, and I was kind of surprised
all the stuff that was not an issue, but there
were some things that were, but there was a much
smaller list. So the dieta's are all over the place,
and so you know, it's whatever you feel. You know,
part of it is working with it. Like, again, how
do I feel about it? What things are going to
(27:48):
help me prepare? I really believe that that's going to
really because people, you know, I read a lot of
stuff and people are saying, oh, well, I didn't follow this,
and I had a bad trip, or I had a
difficult time, and I should have abstained from sex for
a month before and after all these things. Yeah, and
so you know, I would never argue with any of that,
but I just think a lot of it has to
(28:10):
do with people just assigning causes for things.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
Yeah, I would imagine that there's a certain amount of
devoting oneself to some form of discipline that a strong
support for emotional preparation, as well as you know, a
clean diet. There are some things minimally that I ask
of people is that they that they don't eat for
(28:33):
around four hours ahead of time, that they abstain from
caffeinated beverages, especially if I'm going to do MDMA with someone,
because it could stimulate the nervous usually twelve to twenty
four hours ahead of time. Those are two key things
because it can really impact what's happening physiologically with you.
(28:57):
And then I'm sure that any real good facilitator is
going to ask a number of medical questions to know
if there are any contraindications with any medications that they
may be on. So I definitely ask and screen to
make sure that they're especially some certain psychiatric medications. And
(29:19):
there are even experts who you can consult with if
they're on a specific medication. There are psychopharmacologists and psychiatrists
who they specialize in. They'll meet with the client if
it's out of my rage, if it's something that I say, hey,
I really want you to see this person and get
cleared by them. And then there are certain circumstances where
(29:40):
with under the guidance of their psychiatrists, that they may
come off of a medication short term. But again I'm
not a doctor, so I don't advise people on that,
but I know that to choose wisely a facilitator, they're
going to be mindful of these things and my knowing
when to say, hey, check with your after about this,
(30:00):
or check with this medical professional.
Speaker 5 (30:02):
Yeah, I kind of put that part of it in
a separate category. To like the dieta kind of preparations.
I have a pretty lengthy intake for which asks all
those questions to find out that part of it that's
I think, you know, more nuts and bolts with what's
that individual person as opposed to a general DIETA let's
(30:23):
say that everyone gets you know, yeah, well.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
I want to make sure that we highlighted that because
any listeners, how do I choose someone? But one of
the great ways to go if you're with someone who
dots all the i's and crosses all the t's, is
they will have a thorough conversation at the very least
or an intake form with you.
Speaker 7 (30:41):
So so when you guys are at say do you
particularly go and do like group settings or individuals and
do you you I would assume because Paul last time
had mentioned that he likes to go to the person
doing it because then they feel comfortable in their own setting.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
So when they're like, say they're laying on their bed
or their couch or their floor, on a mat or whatever,
they're doing their thing, maybe they're sitting up, maybe they're
doing their thing. What are you, guys? You're sitting there
with them? Are you just letting them experience? Are you?
Are you talking with them, are you not? I'm curious,
what's that like?
Speaker 5 (31:24):
Well, for me, you know, I set up the whole situation,
and I think I mentioned this last time. Is what
I do is I do a brief like five ish
minute like a ritual that creates an energetic safe space
as well. We have the physical safe space that they're in,
which is their home or location, and this way they
(31:44):
don't have to go anywhere at the end and they
ideally feel safer in their own space. So after that
and it's like it's my own little blend of as
far as the ritual, I have the seven directions, and
I phrase things like we were on a two into
the seven directions, we're not calling them in because they're
always with us, so kind of really setting that stage.
(32:05):
And then I do something called somatic tuning, which is
my own little thing loosely based on psychedelic somatic interactional psychotherapy,
which is really very somatic, like what are you feeling
in your body? What are you most noticing in your
body right now? And then we just follow whatever they're noticing.
It helps them to clue into their bodies feeling and
(32:26):
I always tell them give a lot of weight during
the experience to your body sensations and images more so
than cognitive insights and less all three of them connect
your gold on that, okay, and from there I'll do
a little mini live sound bath and then off they
go with the headphones of music that we've already pre
discussed and chosen. So from there, it really depends on
(32:50):
what comes up. Like if nothing, you know, if they're
just in their whole thing the whole time, I'm always
going to check in, you know, roughly once or twice
an hour and just tap them on the shoulder. I
tell them ahead of time, going to check in and
see how are you doing? And they can say fine,
or they can say whatever is going on, or if
something's coming up, then I'm right there to work with them.
It's like in therapy they call it the corrective experience.
(33:12):
If you can provide what you would call a corrective experience,
something where they're used to one response that's not been
good in their life and they get a better response
in real time in the session, that can be very
powerful for the person as well. I could really get
a felt sense of something that's a little more solid
(33:33):
and different. So to me, it's really geared on what
is showing up in the session with that particular person
as to how much or how little I will work
with them. But I'm there to work with whatever shows
up with them.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
How long are these sessions typically taking, because mine was like,
the first one was six hours, the second one was
five hours. How long are you typically with somebody.
Speaker 5 (33:57):
I'm with someone for longer than the usually because it's
a little bit ahead of time in the beginning, and
then afterward, I don't leave until they're comfortable for me
to leave.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
You know.
Speaker 5 (34:07):
I don't have like a time oh timelove, but the
actual journey time is roughly four hours. You know, for
most people it can last little longer sometimes sometimes a
little shorter, but usually that's the average actually in journey,
you know, yeah, yeah, For me.
Speaker 4 (34:29):
I found it depends on the substance and the potency
of particularly mushrooms, and my shorter or longer. I have
people in my space as well as I go to
their space, so I'm flexible with it. I find that
I have a mixed feelings about being most comfortable in
my own space. So for my own experiences, I used
to have a playlist that I liked. I used to
(34:52):
have a way that I lie on the couch, and
I have a friend who's also a facilitator, who said,
why don't you try a different playlists this time, or
why don't we just changed it up a little bit,
And it was a completely different experience. And I really
appreciated that they suggested it because it shook things up
a little bit. It required me to kind of rearrange
(35:12):
my whole being and being a journey in a different experience.
So I totally agree with what Paul said, but I
also kind of like liked the experience of having a
curveball not so it fell unsafe and so unfamiliar. So
I spend some time with clients and asked them what
they what they want and what might feel right to them.
(35:33):
And I think, I wonder if this is true for you, Paul,
that you might be different with someone who's the first
time or than with someone who's had several experiences or
work with you times. Yeah, did you experiments some with
different things?
Speaker 5 (35:45):
Well, yeah, that I work with dosage, you know, particularly
because that's something that I didn't mention that for me
when I was doing my own experiences. My first IOWAK
experience was like torture. Yeah, it was like six hours
of anxiety on steroids. It was just awful. Tell me
(36:05):
about it. It took me a while to figure out
because no one talks about this stuffy. Just lower the dose,
so it took half as much, you know. And once
I did that, I was not busy trying to hang
on for dear life. Yeah, and I was able to
(36:25):
actually process.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I'm actually excited to try my first ayahuasca experience, Paul,
so that we can come back. Actually, I was thinking
about doing an episode beforehand because I was thinking, you know,
during these three you know, episodes that we've been doing
on the mushrooms and the Psychedelic World, I wish that
(36:49):
I had done this before I did the experience, so
that I knew more about it.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
So I think what.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
I'd like to do is do an ayahuasca episode and
then do the experience, and then have another episode about it.
I actually did a TikTok about it, and I asked
people for their experiences or their stories, and I have
three very short ones that I want to read so
(37:16):
the people can cure other people's experiences. This person said,
I had two amazing mushroom trips when I was eighteen
nineteen years old. That really rewired my brain to feel
comfortable with myself and more comfortable with interacting with other people.
It was a night and day sudden transformation of my
(37:37):
whole personality. I've also had three more mushroom trips since
then that were absolutely horrific panic attacks that I will
never get over. Mushroom trips are not something to be
taken lightly. You can't expect a good transformational experience every
time you take them. When it's good, it's really good,
and when it's bad, it's really bad. And then he
(37:59):
goes on to talk about some other like you know,
acid and things like that. But he says everyone says,
oh yeah, no.
Speaker 4 (38:07):
We'll just get that.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
He just doys be careful. And what I want to
preface with this is that if this guy had a facilitator,
he might have had a completely different experience and then
not be traumatized from the actual journey that's supposed to
help him with that, because if you notice, he said
he had two amazing ones and then he had several
(38:31):
bad ones, and it probably would have been better for
him if he had had somebody to.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Work through it.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
And one of the things I wanted to touch on was
the aftercare. Yeah, let me read these two and then
we'll go into aftercare. Mushrooms aren't magical therapy by themselves
sailing dragons, I think this person is. They allow therapy
to land by quieting the mind's default mode network, our
(38:59):
consciousness defense mechanisms. They said they are only one piece
of the healing equation, which I completely agree with.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
And the last one I have we took mushrooms at
a Black Sabbath show at cal Palace in San Francisco,
the Dio version of Sabbath. By the way. We took
too much and had to go hide in some bushes
until we were cool again. I actually found an eighth
(39:30):
of a mushroom at the first Lollipalooza with Janice with
Jane's addiction and had a great trip. So it just
kind of I can't imagine taking a mushroom journey in
public at a concert, I probably lose my fuck in mind.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
Well, I want to highlight something because Christine, I we
did the first episode right after you done your first experience,
your first source second series, and I could tell that
you're totally different, not just in life but around the
topic now, and I will point to what you just
(40:12):
mentioned was aftercare and what most people call integration. How
do I take all of this experience and find the
goal and then bring it into my life? And it
sounds like you've done some work since then because you're
asking thoughtful questions. The first episode, I was like, oh
(40:32):
my god, Christy, I need to come over your house
and have conversation with you. You were just like and
you were, but you were caught up in the sensational
aspect of the experience, which is fun. But then how
do I bring first of all, how do I pull
the lessons out of this and bring it into my
(40:54):
wife life? So I'd love to hear what you do, Paul,
and I'm happy to share too, Like how do you
support people with integration?
Speaker 5 (41:00):
Yeah, that's you know. I'm the former executive director of
Psychedelia Integration Los Angeles here, so that was all we did.
Integration circles, educational events, and there's a lot of ways.
I mean, I think the main thing is presence. It also,
again for me, everything is relational. Everything is what is
(41:22):
the person bringing, where are they at, what might they need?
It's hard for you know, there's some boiler plate things
you can say that are just generally good, you know,
some basic meditation, journaling, things along those lines, physical exercise
of activities. Community, community is very important regardless knowing that
you're not alone. Yeah, you know. And how do you
(41:44):
treat yourself? I like to ask people how do you
treat yourself? Because to me, one of my sayings is
how we treat ourselves. How we go about the healing
is part of the healing? Right am I kind to myself?
Speaker 3 (42:00):
I think it's been all the healing for me?
Speaker 4 (42:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (42:04):
Yeah, And I could make that case that it is
all you're kind of learning how to behave for yourself
that you never got as a kid or anything. You
don't really know exactly. So bringing attention to that part,
how can you know you're being awfully rough on yourself here?
You know, for example, depending on what someone's trying to do,
(42:25):
I'm not there yet, and I'm frustrated. I'm still judging myself,
and then they're judging themselves for judging themselves exactly.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
But I think a lot of people, Paul, I have
to say something there. I think a lot of people
expect the healing to happen immediately and to happen in
the integration, the or the self care after when I
find that it's been over a month now for me,
a little about all over a month, and most of
(42:57):
the healing and most of the inner has been self reflecting,
sitting with it, regoing through it in my mind. What
did I see? What did I experience? What were things
that I could now focus on and not the feelings,
thoughts and the emotion side of it. It's the sitting
(43:18):
within it and feeling all the things I felt and
saw the things I saw and I and I can
really kind of look at it and see it from
outside now and not inside of it where all the
feelings were. And I think that a lot, like I
was saying, a lot of people are thinking it's going
to happen immediately or with this next day after integration stuff,
(43:44):
but it actually is months and months and months and yeah,
lots of time later.
Speaker 4 (43:49):
Yeah you know, can I highlight something that you just said?
You didn't use this phrase, but I'll say I call
it witnessing, witnessing yourself where you previously judged yourself. You know,
it's almost like almost like having a bird's eye view
of self and you see this self that keeps judging
and judging and criticizing yourself. But now you can actually
(44:11):
see it from a different perspective without the judgments, letting
it go, and have some more peace around just who
you are. And one thing I'll say about this entire modality,
and then I'd say it's true for most healing modality
it's true too, is that it's not a passive experience.
And mostly in our culture, we look at feeling as
(44:32):
this thing like do me, you know, I go to
the chiropractor, do me I go to a massage, you know,
or western medicine, you know, give me the pill? And
we want to fix that thing that we judge. But
if we can stop judging it and learn that for me,
integration is starting to pull the wisdom that's already there
(44:53):
that got exposed during this journey, you know. So one
of the questions I often ask, and usually with as
people are coming out of it, or within twelve to
twenty four hours afterwards, I say, what was most useful
that you'd like to explore? And that, you know, it's
kind of like if you if you tasted a flavor
of ice cream, you didn't know what it was, and
you let it roll it around your palette a little bit,
(45:14):
and wonder about it. So I invite people to insights
from their experience and just be be with it, be
curious about it, wonder about it. And that I think
is one of the most useful parts of integration. Not
drawing quick conclusions.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
Right, Oh my god, add percent, I thought I didn't
think I was drawing quick conclusions, but I was absolutely
So I want to ask each one of you. We've
only got two minutes left, so I want to ask
one of you each of this, Paul, what is one
piece of advice that you give someone before their very
first mushroom journey?
Speaker 5 (45:48):
Well, there isn't just one.
Speaker 4 (45:53):
What's that?
Speaker 3 (45:53):
What's your highlight? Your your number one thing that you're like,
this is the most important thing for.
Speaker 5 (45:58):
Me that I think you need to I think it's
probably one of the most important things. Would be too
really for them to be clear on what it is
they really want to work on why they are doing
this to me. That's I mean, that is the basis
for all of it. It's the basis for what you
might even go to regular therapy. It's not any different
(46:18):
I think of psychedelics. I let them know, psychedelics is
not the star. The healing is the star. And you
know it's just a tool in the toolkit. What you're
really going after is the main thing. Really, So don't
you know I kind of downplay or what's the word,
you know, I lower expectations about psychedelics is probably what.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
I love that, And I think I'll be really quick
and I'm just going to borrow what Paul said in
the beginning is feel safe. Trust yourself when you feel safe,
because really you got to trust yourself. Nobody's going to,
you know, way to wave a magic wand and do
any of the magic for you.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
And what do you think, Paul, Steve real quick, what
do you think is the biggest misconception about a facilitator
that you wish people understood.
Speaker 4 (47:11):
What I just said. They're not doing the healing for you.
Speaker 5 (47:13):
You know that.
Speaker 4 (47:14):
They're holding space for you, as cliche as that term sounds,
they're holding the space for you to do your work.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
I love that. I do know that it is an
incredible experience. I think that taking the fear out of
it and making it about healing and about being with
somebody that can help guide you through it is the
most important thing. Thank you both for being here today.
(47:41):
I have to say that it has been the most
incredible journey for me. I completely think differently now, Bits
and pieces of things come to me in a different
way that I never even imagined. I think completely differently,
and I don't look at my pain for my past
the same. It's just not pain anymore. It's an experience
(48:05):
and a learning journey. And I just never felt better,
to be quite frank. So time is up and I
can hear Rebel in the background going get over it.
So thank you everybody for coming today. The both of
you are extraordinary. I can't wait to have you both
back again. You're most amazing. Thank you everyone for coming
(48:26):
every week and we love having you here. If there's
ever anything you want to have us cover, you're welcome
to email us. You have our email. If you don't,
it's in the end of the episode, same time, same place,
next week, and until it, Oh, can't go yet. Next
week is episode two.
Speaker 4 (48:46):
Two hundred.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
We're gonna have a bunch of people on and we're
going to have a party. So join us next week,
same lime, same place, next week, and until then, let's
just keep this shit real. If you enjoyed this episode,
please share with your friends, like and follow us on
Instagram at fifty Shades.
Speaker 5 (49:06):
Of Underscore Bullshit.
Speaker 3 (49:09):
And Facebook at fifty Shades of Bullshit. Thanks so much
for listening, and we really hope to see you again
next week
The following show contains adult content. It's not our intent
to offend anyone, but we want to inform you that
if you are a child under the age of eighteen
or get offended easily, this next show may not be
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shows are solely the choice of your show hosts and
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any affiliated stations. Any comments or inquiry you should be
(00:22):
directed to those show hosts. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hey everyone, and welcome to Fifty Shades of Bullshit. I'm
your host, Christine Lalan, and this is the podcast where
we uncover the truth about online dating.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Now let's begin. Hey everyone, I'm Christine and I'm Steve,
and this is fifty Shades of Bullshit.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
How you doing.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I'm having a hell of it.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know much about Mercury
and retrogade, but you're having some technical problem. Yeah, is
mercury anywhere? Oops? You just hit mute now, actually muted there, yep,
and that does hit it again.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
Oh my god, my microphone is acting today. It's so
much going on that's crazy today that I just I'm
ready to get high and go to.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
I got to start the day over tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Let's start it over. Well, today's nine to eleven anyway,
so it's a bizarre day. You know. I've bitter sweet
memories of a handful of years ago. I got real lucky.
My first sizzle reel that I ever put together was
four years ago. It was during COVID that I started
(01:49):
my pivot and I started my production company, and I
came up with my first documentary idea. And September eleventh,
twenty one, it was the twenty year reunion. They gave
the City of New York gave me a special permit
to come to New York and film down at the
(02:12):
Memorial where the Trade Center is. I was wow, and
I got to go down with my film crew and
I got it was crazy because I saw a hotel
online that had a picture of a room that you
could see where the Memorial is, and I was like, oh,
(02:33):
I got to stay at that hotel that obviously is
right by the Memorial. I wanted to be able to
shoot from my hotel suite and be able to see
down below, and unbelievable, I got the freaking room that
was in the picture. I manifested that so hard. And
(02:55):
I had a firefighter. His name is Scott Goaches. He's
from Michigan and he is a special train to search
and rescue firefighter. And when nine to eleven happened, him
and a crew of three other guys jumped in a
vehicle and headed to New York and he was part
(03:15):
of the search and rescue team. And yeah, my fucking Mike,
I gotta.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
I gotta.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
I cannot tell you anything, so if.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
I go in and out, that's why I'm Scott went
with us to New York. Was a search and rescue
during nine to eleven. From Michigan, he went through hell
and back. This last twenty some years, he has really
really had PTSD. He's really suffered. He had cancer, he
survived that, he had. A lot happened to him since
(03:46):
nine to eleven. And it's very exciting because he told
me today that the memorial nine to eleven memorial reached
out to him and asked him to come and say
some words for recording that they're going to do, and
some of his equipment that he wore is going to
be in the memorial. So that is really exciting, and
(04:08):
it was probably one of the best sizzle reels I
ever did. It was called Hollywood Dreams The Unexpected Journey.
And the reason why Scott as nine to eleven, you know,
with the nine to eleven thing is in there, is
because he really, you know, hit rock bottom after nine
to eleven with drugs and alcohol and going to jail
because of it, and he just recently got his He
(04:32):
got set up. He didn't do something to where he
just was caught. He got set up for something. I
won't go into it here, it's on my sizzle reel,
but basically he got a spunt. His record sponged of that,
and he has really straightened out his life and he's
a teamster now and so his part of it is
(04:53):
is going from you know, struggling and hitting rock bottom
to changing his life and being in the movie industry.
And it's it's just, you know, my mind is at
you know, nine to eleven and everything that everybody went
through and how much our country has really been divided
since then, and then you know, with all the bullshit
(05:16):
that's happening with my normal shiit.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Today, it's well, take a minute to tell me, so
I missed a week and you interviewed our guest for
part one or I guess that was part two. To
about him. I know a little bit about him from
being on a Facebook group with him. But tell me
how that went, because I haven't.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Funny you're on a you're on a Facebook group with Paul.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
Yes, interesting people, but we are in a base group
Facebook group for people with psychedelics.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Well let's just bring Paul
on and we'll we'll talk about it. So Paul and
I are friends through Hi, Paul, thanks for being here again.
Speaker 5 (05:58):
Well thanks for having me back.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
Of course I haven't really met and now it's good
to meet you.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Yeah, Paul is This is Steve. Steve has been my helper,
my co host for a while now, and he is
also facilitator. And Paul is a brother of one of
my best friends, Denise. And Paul and I go back
like I don't know, twelve fourteen years now something like that. Yeah, yeah,
(06:27):
and Paul is also a facilitator. And tell us Paul,
how again, how you got involved in becoming a facilitator
for psychedelics.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Well that could be a long story.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
No, make it short because we got a lot to cover.
Speaker 5 (06:45):
I know you a two minute version. Yes, basically, as
with a lot of people, came out of my own healing.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
No.
Speaker 5 (06:55):
I was after, how can I work with my own trauma?
First of all, I didn't even know what trauma was,
you know that I had it. And then after it
was you know Bessel vander Kolps The Body keeps the score.
That kind of blew that myth and kind of shocking
really to read that book, you know, as I, as
I half jokingly tell people, I was turning the pages, going,
(07:16):
I am so fucked, you know about talking about childhood
issues and stuff. And so but from there, you know,
I started doing my own work. I'd already been doing
therapy and stuff, but you know, it's kind of slow going.
So I ended up getting into psychedelics, made some great progress,
(07:36):
you know, through you know, sitting every single month with
the same aahuasca group for a year. That's what really
moved the needle, and I would say, gave me a
big foothold on my own trauma. And so from there,
you know, I thought I would like to be helping
other people, and so then I wanted to get more
training and so you know, I became certified and compassionate inquiry,
(07:58):
got more mates, you know, really elegant trauma informed way
of working with people. And then also at that same time,
I started learning Rose and meth Ad bodywork, which is
kind of long program which I'm just getting ready to
finish soon.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
I love that.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
So I got interrupted with with the pandemic because it's
a hands on specific body work and you can't learn
it while you're not doing hands on anyway. So you know,
bringing all that to the table, then helping people work
with their own issues and holding space for that and
(08:39):
supporting them, you know, with again, I think that the
therapeutic piece, you know, I have what I call my
four pillars of psychedelic facilitation, is the therapeutic piece, which
is the trauma informed piece. And you know, there's a
lot of ways you can get that. For me, it's
a compassion inquiry. There's a somatic piece, and for me,
again that's Rosenet's at bodywork, a really powerful modality. I
(09:01):
like it because it's just it's one of the few
that's hands on from start to finish. And then the
other piece, of course is your own psychedelic experiences so
that you you know, you're familiar with the territory. And
then the fourth piece is the trans personal psychology, which
is non dual. You know, all the things that you
run into in mystical experience and that kind of thing.
(09:23):
So bringing all that together is a way to support people,
is I guess that's the that's the shorter maybe mediums.
How I got into involved with sitting with people?
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Well, Steve, what drew you into becoming a facilitator?
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Well, I actually did not have my first experience with
psychedelics until I was in my fifties, so I had
heard about them. I knew people who experimented with them.
You know. I grew up in the seventies where I
watched my brother smoke pot and I, you know, saw
people stoned and checked out and I was like, no,
I want to check in. And when I heard about
(10:02):
psychedelics not the time. Really, all I heard about was
mushrooms and LSD. Those were the two that I really
heard about. I thought, well, if I ever try something,
I want to try that, But never did. I did
all kinds of personal development and personal growth experiences on
through my late teens into my twenties, thirties, forties, and
(10:23):
then finally my fifties I'm reading again about psychedelics, and
I'm already working with my own clients as a counselor
and coach. I also have a body work background too,
so I do a form of degraded body therapy, and
you know, so we have a similar background. It sounds
like but I didn't start. I don't think it's all
much later. I think, Paul, maybe, had you done any
(10:44):
experimentation in your youth?
Speaker 5 (10:46):
Yeah, as a teenager, I was mister psychedelic. I will,
but I will say that I was doing it as
an escape. I had.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
No intention around it.
Speaker 5 (10:58):
Yeah, how far away can I get from my pain
and my you know, challenges.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Well, let's let's bookmark that and come back to it,
because I know that part of where culturally we're moving
is decriminalization or legalization of these substances. Maybe we'll bookmarket
and come back to that, because you know, I have
concerns personally about people just doing recreational use and non
intentional use. But let's maybe keep the conversation around intentional use,
(11:29):
because I think what Christine really intended, what was, is
that we support people. How do you find someone who
can really you know, they can call you or I
you know, but how do you find someone who is
a legit person who is really knows how to serve
you as someone wanting to explore, Like, I know I
have my thoughts, I'd love to hear yours, and I
(11:51):
know you have a lot of experience too.
Speaker 5 (11:53):
Yeah. Yeah, that's a really important question actually, And so
the first thing I would say is to to to
someone looking is to of course, you want to meet
with the person, and you want to trust your own feelings.
So where your own sensibility? Do I feel safe with
this person? That's probably number one? You know, Do I
(12:14):
feel a little anxious like oh, they're gonna tell me
what to do? Or you know, I would say that's
more of a flag. Yeah, you want to feel comfortable
with you know. And now some people because of their trauma,
they can only feel so comfortable period, you know, but
as as safe as they can feel, you know that
(12:35):
that would be the number one piece. I'd say number two,
you could look at some basic training things or background
and you know, like I mentioned my little four pillars,
see if they cover that ground. But the problem really
is that someone can have a good looking resume really
(12:56):
have much safety within themselves, and so you can't really
completely trust that. It's almost like it'd be worth having
a session or two, like a one hour kind of
a session, just to really get a sense of how
you feel, because a lot of people do. They just
they take the medicine a couple of times and they're
like a medicine told me, I should you know, serve
(13:18):
or be a shot?
Speaker 4 (13:19):
You know what do you think?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
It's the difference between a sitter, a guide, or a facilitator.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
Yeah, so I use those all interchange. People have distinctions,
you know they do.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
I don't. I have some different ideas.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yeah, I'm interested.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
I'm interested. Well to run with this one. You use them?
I have. In fact, I did the first course. I
took a distinguished three different distinctions. A sitter is somebody
who they just make sure you're safe and connected to
the physical universe, water, black, gets whatever, and you're on
(14:01):
your own with how how you dose yourself, what you
take when you take it. So a sitter is just
there for you to support you if you need anything,
and if something goes wrong to you know, to help you.
So a sider may not have much training other than
they're a conscious person who can not be on the
medicine and be there and sit with you. So that's
(14:24):
how I was described what a sitter is. Then the
next phase and used a guide. So I use guide
and facilitator in kind of the same way. A facilitator
or a guide is someone who knows the terrain. They've
explored the terrain themselves. They know whatever substance you might
(14:45):
have been, you might have chosen, they've experienced it. They
know how to dose it, you know how to start
you and titrate you know. They're not going to give
you more than what you can handle. They can actually
sense what it would be appropriate for somebody on their
first pride, you know, first experience, versus someone who's experienced before.
They might know different things about the substances. For example,
(15:08):
if we're talking about mushrooms, different strains have different qualities
to them and a different energetic feel to it, so
so they have a much more rich sense of experience themselves. Plus,
I think there's something really I think the most challenging
part about being a facilitator, and you can you can
speak to this to Paul, is you also you're not
(15:31):
a coach. You want to get out of the way
so they can have their experience and really just trust
that your presence is enough for them to feel safe.
I love what you said, Paul. People have to feel safe,
and when you're you're dealing with an unknown experience, you know,
you know, you've got to feel as safe as you
possibly can. So so those are the two. Now, I
(15:54):
heard of a third that I'm not as familiar with,
but Paul, you might be familiar with. This in terms
of the ayahuasca world, is when a facilitator is on
a light dose of medicine themselves. Someone used the term
a shirpa for they actually are in the experience with you.
They're not responsible for the safety of the environment so
much as be in the space with you and help
(16:18):
guide you or know where you are. So I've heard
that third term, which I think is rather cool, although
I have not done that myself. But as I understand
that some of the shamans or the people in the
ayahuasca world do take a light dose, or a facilitator does,
does that you can speak more to that.
Speaker 5 (16:34):
Yeah, that is from my experience. Also that they do,
I personally could not.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
They must really have had a long journey to be
able to do that type of thing. Now, I do.
I do want to ask you both, what does a
good facilitator actually do during this person's journey?
Speaker 5 (16:58):
Great question to me to answer that It depends on
what's coming up. I mean, there's a lot of a
lot of the work is preparation, really, because a good
preparation can mitigate a lot of potential problems later. And
if you've given people some good framework to understand what
may come up and how it may look, then they're
not as likely to be panicked. I always say during
(17:23):
the experience, you can always remind them, oh, remember we
talked about that, or oh this feeling might come up,
so let's work with that.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
I love that now you brought to my attention that
I do want to go and talk about what the
steps are once you find a facilitator, What the steps
are that you're doing to prepare for this journey. Like
you were just saying, Paul, you know something, you know
(17:51):
if something, if they start to panic, and I can
bring up something that we discussed prior, I'd love to
know what those steps are that y'all do with somebody
to prepare for the optional.
Speaker 5 (18:01):
Well, what I do is, first of all, the main
question I ask people is why do you want to
do this? We start with what is their intention? It's
another way to say that what brings them to psychedelics
as opposed to something else, or what is it that
they're trying to clear up or uncover or heal or
whatever it is. And then from there I'll work in
(18:23):
a kind of a compassionate inquiry way to try and
uncover a little bit of their childhood experiences, the developmental trauma,
attachment issues that are you know, driving what's going on
with them or what they're trying to work on, and
if I can help them make some of those connections.
And ideally, what I'm doing also is I'm deliberately wanting
(18:45):
that to stir the pot a little bit because then
because you never know what's going to show up on
a journey, but if we've talked about it, then perhaps
that might help that to show up. And if that
shows up, then it's it's good because stuff that they
can directly work on and that we've already talked about
it in a framework where you know, they can ideally
(19:08):
bring some compassion to what they had to go through
as a child, for example, and how that can they
can bring some of that compassion, really a felt sense
compassion in the journey that can be hugely powerful.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
What about you, Steve, what's that like for you?
Speaker 4 (19:25):
Some of the things that I do. I'm sure Paul
does something similar. But I want to know what is
safe for them, what is a point for them in
their life experience, so that if something does come up,
I can be a reminder of Like when you're experiencing
something in psychedelic realm, you want to know that your
(19:45):
tethered to this reality. And I think the facilitator is
that form of a tether. They are there to connect
you to what is safe. So if they start going
out there and experiencing fear or emotions, big emotions, first
of all, I want to let them know that's okay,
and I can sit with them in the big emotions too.
But also if they want what might bring them back
(20:07):
to a sense of safety if they feel like they're
gone somewhere and they're starting to get afraid.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
So I have a.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Couple of questions for you both for the preparing for
the journey kind of thing. The first one is what
are some common intentions people try to bring into a
mushroom journey? Is there something that's common, that's a thread
that people try to do well.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
There are a few, but I mean to me, I see,
I'm looking at it through that developmental trauma lens and
the core belief that most people have in some way
that I'm not good enough, I'm broken, I'm bad, I'm wrong.
So whatever it is, it's often related either directly or
indirectly to that sensibility. I mean, sometimes it's something more specific,
(20:59):
like I did have one soon said, I'm starting a
new venture with people and I want some creative ideas,
you know, And that's a little more unusual, I mean,
at least in my world where I'm focused more on
the therapeut again. But mostly people are, you know, dealing
with issues from their past, you know, sexual traumas, all
(21:19):
kinds of things related. But you know that when boiled down,
it takes to something's wrong with me? And how can
they help? How can I help them recognize that they're
okay even with whatever flaws they feel they have.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
I love that. What about you, Steve, is there a
common thread that you hear.
Speaker 4 (21:38):
Well, I'm going to speak to some of the stereotypes
or of the typical things that I know that people,
And I think we're having a cultural shift the more
research that's being done and the more that we find
in the media about the powerful use of psychedelics, the
intentional use of psychedelics, the therapeutic use of psychedelics. So
as that's coming to the foreground, some of what I'm
(21:59):
about to say is fall away. But some of the
times people come in and they want a cool trip,
they want to experience the colors and the visuals, and
so I definitely make sure that if that's there for them,
that they talk about it, and that we could laugh
about it and say, hey, you may or may not
have some cool imagery. You may So I want people
(22:19):
to know that, and I want to get that on
the table right away with some people so that if
they have an expectation and it doesn't happen, they're not
disappointed and spending their whole time searching for the cool
lights and the aliens, or if it does happen, that
they're not afraid that they know that some of this
might happen. So I want to bring forward some of
(22:39):
the type the typical things that we hear about in psychedelics.
So that's one thing that I like to talk about,
and then I also talk about there's so many people
who come to this who are already doing work with
a counselor or a therapist or a coach. So I
might ask them what they're already working on, and I
might also ask them what they've been working on that's
(23:01):
some unresolvable issue that they've been dragging around their whole life.
So that we could just be real and talk about
some of those things. I try try to make it
really accessible and simple to talk about. And again it
points back to it Paul was saying, I want to
make sure that I'm a safe person that they could
share those things with.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
How do you think that someone can mentally or emotionally
prepare for the day and are there like a lifestyle
choices that they can do to help beforehand, like diet, rest,
abstaining from certain things.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Yeah, they call that the set of set and setting.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Oh I do have something I did write something down
about set and setting. So yeah, if you can kind
of pull that into that, that.
Speaker 6 (23:48):
Would beat Can I invite you because I know in
the Ayahuascar world, and I didn't know that you did
so many years with that, there's a lot of prep
if you could speak to that too, because even if.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Someone's not doing ayahuasca per se, there might be some
things from that that people can bring.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
Yeah, well, I have a lot of different views, so
the you know, the ayahuasca world, you know, and I
don't work with ayahuasca as far as with people mushrooms
in NBMA, the ayahuasca experience is really different. It's a group,
it's community, it has its own value, and you know,
I wouldn't even pretend to facilitate something like that. I'm
(24:31):
more the individual therapeutic, you know, let's go in that direction.
So as far as ayahuasca, they have ideeta that they
want you to follow for a certain amount of time beforehand.
And so the things that I find challenging for me personally,
and I don't mean challenging to do, but challenging to accept,
is that the time of having these requirements varies between groups.
(24:58):
What the things that are on the this these dieta
is not the same either. And then if you look
at the actual science, there's a few things that you
should definitely not have, like particularly anything that will affect
an ME or I inhibitor kind of thing like fermented
foods is one of those things that you should. A
(25:18):
lot of the other stuff is purely you know, it's
part of the culture, it's part of the system. It's
not physiologically, it's not going to affect anything that way.
But you know, the way they speak about it is
that it's preparing you mentally. You know, you're not going
to eat salt or sugar. If you do eat salt sugar,
(25:40):
it's not going to hurt anything. If you believe it's
going to hurt something, well then it probably was. So
it's one of those things. It depends on where you're
coming from. It's a respect in a sense for the process,
but to me, it's kind of arbitrary as to what
it is. You know, I remember when I was doing
(26:00):
some of my ayahuasca. You know, they say you shouldn't
need pork. You know, in between the two days, I'd
be sitting there with carnitas. You know, I just you know,
I felt like I need some serious nursement, and so
I wasn't quite following that kind of dieta But I
(26:21):
speaking a little more to the literalness of it, but
there is you know, it's good, and you know the
saying that everyone's probably heard the journey starts when you
decide to do it, so that is definitely the case.
It's percolating, it's going, and so any little habits that
you can do that can help the process getting your
mind ready over time, could be little bits of meditation
(26:43):
every day, writing a little journal every day, a specific diet,
you know, I don't think is you know for me,
I don't. I'm not really big on all of that.
I remember the first Sikauasca journey I did, I was
like a fanatic. Oh I got follow the diet exactly much.
The difference well, I mean, as I did it further
(27:05):
moving along, I just wasn't. Yeah, it was Dennis Mechinna
that kind of turned me onto all that because he
had a website called ayahuasca dot com, which I don't
know if it's still up there anymore. But yeah, the
whole thing about ayahuasca foods to really avoid and things
not that it doesn't matter from a specifically medical, you know,
(27:26):
physiological point of view, and I was kind of surprised
all the stuff that was not an issue, but there
were some things that were, but there was a much
smaller list. So the dieta's are all over the place,
and so you know, it's whatever you feel. You know,
part of it is working with it. Like, again, how
do I feel about it? What things are going to
(27:48):
help me prepare? I really believe that that's going to
really because people, you know, I read a lot of
stuff and people are saying, oh, well, I didn't follow this,
and I had a bad trip, or I had a
difficult time, and I should have abstained from sex for
a month before and after all these things. Yeah, and
so you know, I would never argue with any of that,
but I just think a lot of it has to
(28:10):
do with people just assigning causes for things.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
Yeah, I would imagine that there's a certain amount of
devoting oneself to some form of discipline that a strong
support for emotional preparation, as well as you know, a
clean diet. There are some things minimally that I ask
of people is that they that they don't eat for
(28:33):
around four hours ahead of time, that they abstain from
caffeinated beverages, especially if I'm going to do MDMA with someone,
because it could stimulate the nervous usually twelve to twenty
four hours ahead of time. Those are two key things
because it can really impact what's happening physiologically with you.
(28:57):
And then I'm sure that any real good facilitator is
going to ask a number of medical questions to know
if there are any contraindications with any medications that they
may be on. So I definitely ask and screen to
make sure that they're especially some certain psychiatric medications. And
(29:19):
there are even experts who you can consult with if
they're on a specific medication. There are psychopharmacologists and psychiatrists
who they specialize in. They'll meet with the client if
it's out of my rage, if it's something that I say, hey,
I really want you to see this person and get
cleared by them. And then there are certain circumstances where
(29:40):
with under the guidance of their psychiatrists, that they may
come off of a medication short term. But again I'm
not a doctor, so I don't advise people on that,
but I know that to choose wisely a facilitator, they're
going to be mindful of these things and my knowing
when to say, hey, check with your after about this,
(30:00):
or check with this medical professional.
Speaker 5 (30:02):
Yeah, I kind of put that part of it in
a separate category. To like the dieta kind of preparations.
I have a pretty lengthy intake for which asks all
those questions to find out that part of it that's
I think, you know, more nuts and bolts with what's
that individual person as opposed to a general DIETA let's
(30:23):
say that everyone gets you know, yeah, well.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
I want to make sure that we highlighted that because
any listeners, how do I choose someone? But one of
the great ways to go if you're with someone who
dots all the i's and crosses all the t's, is
they will have a thorough conversation at the very least
or an intake form with you.
Speaker 7 (30:41):
So so when you guys are at say do you
particularly go and do like group settings or individuals and
do you you I would assume because Paul last time
had mentioned that he likes to go to the person
doing it because then they feel comfortable in their own setting.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
So when they're like, say they're laying on their bed
or their couch or their floor, on a mat or whatever,
they're doing their thing, maybe they're sitting up, maybe they're
doing their thing. What are you, guys? You're sitting there
with them? Are you just letting them experience? Are you?
Are you talking with them, are you not? I'm curious,
what's that like?
Speaker 5 (31:24):
Well, for me, you know, I set up the whole situation,
and I think I mentioned this last time. Is what
I do is I do a brief like five ish
minute like a ritual that creates an energetic safe space
as well. We have the physical safe space that they're in,
which is their home or location, and this way they
(31:44):
don't have to go anywhere at the end and they
ideally feel safer in their own space. So after that
and it's like it's my own little blend of as
far as the ritual, I have the seven directions, and
I phrase things like we were on a two into
the seven directions, we're not calling them in because they're
always with us, so kind of really setting that stage.
(32:05):
And then I do something called somatic tuning, which is
my own little thing loosely based on psychedelic somatic interactional psychotherapy,
which is really very somatic, like what are you feeling
in your body? What are you most noticing in your
body right now? And then we just follow whatever they're noticing.
It helps them to clue into their bodies feeling and
(32:26):
I always tell them give a lot of weight during
the experience to your body sensations and images more so
than cognitive insights and less all three of them connect
your gold on that, okay, and from there I'll do
a little mini live sound bath and then off they
go with the headphones of music that we've already pre
discussed and chosen. So from there, it really depends on
(32:50):
what comes up. Like if nothing, you know, if they're
just in their whole thing the whole time, I'm always
going to check in, you know, roughly once or twice
an hour and just tap them on the shoulder. I
tell them ahead of time, going to check in and
see how are you doing? And they can say fine,
or they can say whatever is going on, or if
something's coming up, then I'm right there to work with them.
It's like in therapy they call it the corrective experience.
(33:12):
If you can provide what you would call a corrective experience,
something where they're used to one response that's not been
good in their life and they get a better response
in real time in the session, that can be very
powerful for the person as well. I could really get
a felt sense of something that's a little more solid
(33:33):
and different. So to me, it's really geared on what
is showing up in the session with that particular person
as to how much or how little I will work
with them. But I'm there to work with whatever shows
up with them.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
How long are these sessions typically taking, because mine was like,
the first one was six hours, the second one was
five hours. How long are you typically with somebody.
Speaker 5 (33:57):
I'm with someone for longer than the usually because it's
a little bit ahead of time in the beginning, and
then afterward, I don't leave until they're comfortable for me
to leave.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
You know.
Speaker 5 (34:07):
I don't have like a time oh timelove, but the
actual journey time is roughly four hours. You know, for
most people it can last little longer sometimes sometimes a
little shorter, but usually that's the average actually in journey,
you know, yeah, yeah, For me.
Speaker 4 (34:29):
I found it depends on the substance and the potency
of particularly mushrooms, and my shorter or longer. I have
people in my space as well as I go to
their space, so I'm flexible with it. I find that
I have a mixed feelings about being most comfortable in
my own space. So for my own experiences, I used
to have a playlist that I liked. I used to
(34:52):
have a way that I lie on the couch, and
I have a friend who's also a facilitator, who said,
why don't you try a different playlists this time, or
why don't we just changed it up a little bit,
And it was a completely different experience. And I really
appreciated that they suggested it because it shook things up
a little bit. It required me to kind of rearrange
(35:12):
my whole being and being a journey in a different experience.
So I totally agree with what Paul said, but I
also kind of like liked the experience of having a
curveball not so it fell unsafe and so unfamiliar. So
I spend some time with clients and asked them what
they what they want and what might feel right to them.
(35:33):
And I think, I wonder if this is true for you, Paul,
that you might be different with someone who's the first
time or than with someone who's had several experiences or
work with you times. Yeah, did you experiments some with
different things?
Speaker 5 (35:45):
Well, yeah, that I work with dosage, you know, particularly
because that's something that I didn't mention that for me
when I was doing my own experiences. My first IOWAK
experience was like torture. Yeah, it was like six hours
of anxiety on steroids. It was just awful. Tell me
(36:05):
about it. It took me a while to figure out
because no one talks about this stuffy. Just lower the dose,
so it took half as much, you know. And once
I did that, I was not busy trying to hang
on for dear life. Yeah, and I was able to
(36:25):
actually process.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I'm actually excited to try my first ayahuasca experience, Paul,
so that we can come back. Actually, I was thinking
about doing an episode beforehand because I was thinking, you know,
during these three you know, episodes that we've been doing
on the mushrooms and the Psychedelic World, I wish that
(36:49):
I had done this before I did the experience, so
that I knew more about it.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
So I think what.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
I'd like to do is do an ayahuasca episode and
then do the experience, and then have another episode about it.
I actually did a TikTok about it, and I asked
people for their experiences or their stories, and I have
three very short ones that I want to read so
(37:16):
the people can cure other people's experiences. This person said,
I had two amazing mushroom trips when I was eighteen
nineteen years old. That really rewired my brain to feel
comfortable with myself and more comfortable with interacting with other people.
It was a night and day sudden transformation of my
(37:37):
whole personality. I've also had three more mushroom trips since
then that were absolutely horrific panic attacks that I will
never get over. Mushroom trips are not something to be
taken lightly. You can't expect a good transformational experience every
time you take them. When it's good, it's really good,
and when it's bad, it's really bad. And then he
(37:59):
goes on to talk about some other like you know,
acid and things like that. But he says everyone says,
oh yeah, no.
Speaker 4 (38:07):
We'll just get that.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
He just doys be careful. And what I want to
preface with this is that if this guy had a facilitator,
he might have had a completely different experience and then
not be traumatized from the actual journey that's supposed to
help him with that, because if you notice, he said
he had two amazing ones and then he had several
(38:31):
bad ones, and it probably would have been better for
him if he had had somebody to.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Work through it.
Speaker 3 (38:36):
And one of the things I wanted to touch on was
the aftercare. Yeah, let me read these two and then
we'll go into aftercare. Mushrooms aren't magical therapy by themselves
sailing dragons, I think this person is. They allow therapy
to land by quieting the mind's default mode network, our
(38:59):
consciousness defense mechanisms. They said they are only one piece
of the healing equation, which I completely agree with.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
And the last one I have we took mushrooms at
a Black Sabbath show at cal Palace in San Francisco,
the Dio version of Sabbath. By the way. We took
too much and had to go hide in some bushes
until we were cool again. I actually found an eighth
(39:30):
of a mushroom at the first Lollipalooza with Janice with
Jane's addiction and had a great trip. So it just
kind of I can't imagine taking a mushroom journey in
public at a concert, I probably lose my fuck in mind.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
Well, I want to highlight something because Christine, I we
did the first episode right after you done your first experience,
your first source second series, and I could tell that
you're totally different, not just in life but around the
topic now, and I will point to what you just
(40:12):
mentioned was aftercare and what most people call integration. How
do I take all of this experience and find the
goal and then bring it into my life? And it
sounds like you've done some work since then because you're
asking thoughtful questions. The first episode, I was like, oh
(40:32):
my god, Christy, I need to come over your house
and have conversation with you. You were just like and
you were, but you were caught up in the sensational
aspect of the experience, which is fun. But then how
do I bring first of all, how do I pull
the lessons out of this and bring it into my
(40:54):
wife life? So I'd love to hear what you do, Paul,
and I'm happy to share too, Like how do you
support people with integration?
Speaker 5 (41:00):
Yeah, that's you know. I'm the former executive director of
Psychedelia Integration Los Angeles here, so that was all we did.
Integration circles, educational events, and there's a lot of ways.
I mean, I think the main thing is presence. It also,
again for me, everything is relational. Everything is what is
(41:22):
the person bringing, where are they at, what might they need?
It's hard for you know, there's some boiler plate things
you can say that are just generally good, you know,
some basic meditation, journaling, things along those lines, physical exercise
of activities. Community, community is very important regardless knowing that
you're not alone. Yeah, you know. And how do you
(41:44):
treat yourself? I like to ask people how do you
treat yourself? Because to me, one of my sayings is
how we treat ourselves. How we go about the healing
is part of the healing? Right am I kind to myself?
Speaker 3 (42:00):
I think it's been all the healing for me?
Speaker 4 (42:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (42:04):
Yeah, And I could make that case that it is
all you're kind of learning how to behave for yourself
that you never got as a kid or anything. You
don't really know exactly. So bringing attention to that part,
how can you know you're being awfully rough on yourself here?
You know, for example, depending on what someone's trying to do,
(42:25):
I'm not there yet, and I'm frustrated. I'm still judging myself,
and then they're judging themselves for judging themselves exactly.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
But I think a lot of people, Paul, I have
to say something there. I think a lot of people
expect the healing to happen immediately and to happen in
the integration, the or the self care after when I
find that it's been over a month now for me,
a little about all over a month, and most of
(42:57):
the healing and most of the inner has been self reflecting,
sitting with it, regoing through it in my mind. What
did I see? What did I experience? What were things
that I could now focus on and not the feelings,
thoughts and the emotion side of it. It's the sitting
(43:18):
within it and feeling all the things I felt and
saw the things I saw and I and I can
really kind of look at it and see it from
outside now and not inside of it where all the
feelings were. And I think that a lot, like I
was saying, a lot of people are thinking it's going
to happen immediately or with this next day after integration stuff,
(43:44):
but it actually is months and months and months and yeah,
lots of time later.
Speaker 4 (43:49):
Yeah you know, can I highlight something that you just said?
You didn't use this phrase, but I'll say I call
it witnessing, witnessing yourself where you previously judged yourself. You know,
it's almost like almost like having a bird's eye view
of self and you see this self that keeps judging
and judging and criticizing yourself. But now you can actually
(44:11):
see it from a different perspective without the judgments, letting
it go, and have some more peace around just who
you are. And one thing I'll say about this entire modality,
and then I'd say it's true for most healing modality
it's true too, is that it's not a passive experience.
And mostly in our culture, we look at feeling as
(44:32):
this thing like do me, you know, I go to
the chiropractor, do me I go to a massage, you know,
or western medicine, you know, give me the pill? And
we want to fix that thing that we judge. But
if we can stop judging it and learn that for me,
integration is starting to pull the wisdom that's already there
(44:53):
that got exposed during this journey, you know. So one
of the questions I often ask, and usually with as
people are coming out of it, or within twelve to
twenty four hours afterwards, I say, what was most useful
that you'd like to explore? And that, you know, it's
kind of like if you if you tasted a flavor
of ice cream, you didn't know what it was, and
you let it roll it around your palette a little bit,
(45:14):
and wonder about it. So I invite people to insights
from their experience and just be be with it, be
curious about it, wonder about it. And that I think
is one of the most useful parts of integration. Not
drawing quick conclusions.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
Right, Oh my god, add percent, I thought I didn't
think I was drawing quick conclusions, but I was absolutely
So I want to ask each one of you. We've
only got two minutes left, so I want to ask
one of you each of this, Paul, what is one
piece of advice that you give someone before their very
first mushroom journey?
Speaker 5 (45:48):
Well, there isn't just one.
Speaker 4 (45:53):
What's that?
Speaker 3 (45:53):
What's your highlight? Your your number one thing that you're like,
this is the most important thing for.
Speaker 5 (45:58):
Me that I think you need to I think it's
probably one of the most important things. Would be too
really for them to be clear on what it is
they really want to work on why they are doing
this to me. That's I mean, that is the basis
for all of it. It's the basis for what you
might even go to regular therapy. It's not any different
(46:18):
I think of psychedelics. I let them know, psychedelics is
not the star. The healing is the star. And you
know it's just a tool in the toolkit. What you're
really going after is the main thing. Really, So don't
you know I kind of downplay or what's the word,
you know, I lower expectations about psychedelics is probably what.
Speaker 4 (46:44):
I love that, And I think I'll be really quick
and I'm just going to borrow what Paul said in
the beginning is feel safe. Trust yourself when you feel safe,
because really you got to trust yourself. Nobody's going to,
you know, way to wave a magic wand and do
any of the magic for you.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
And what do you think, Paul, Steve real quick, what
do you think is the biggest misconception about a facilitator
that you wish people understood.
Speaker 4 (47:11):
What I just said. They're not doing the healing for you.
Speaker 5 (47:13):
You know that.
Speaker 4 (47:14):
They're holding space for you, as cliche as that term sounds,
they're holding the space for you to do your work.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
I love that. I do know that it is an
incredible experience. I think that taking the fear out of
it and making it about healing and about being with
somebody that can help guide you through it is the
most important thing. Thank you both for being here today.
(47:41):
I have to say that it has been the most
incredible journey for me. I completely think differently now, Bits
and pieces of things come to me in a different
way that I never even imagined. I think completely differently,
and I don't look at my pain for my past
the same. It's just not pain anymore. It's an experience
(48:05):
and a learning journey. And I just never felt better,
to be quite frank. So time is up and I
can hear Rebel in the background going get over it.
So thank you everybody for coming today. The both of
you are extraordinary. I can't wait to have you both
back again. You're most amazing. Thank you everyone for coming
(48:26):
every week and we love having you here. If there's
ever anything you want to have us cover, you're welcome
to email us. You have our email. If you don't,
it's in the end of the episode, same time, same place,
next week, and until it, Oh, can't go yet. Next
week is episode two.
Speaker 4 (48:46):
Two hundred.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
We're gonna have a bunch of people on and we're
going to have a party. So join us next week,
same lime, same place, next week, and until then, let's
just keep this shit real. If you enjoyed this episode,
please share with your friends, like and follow us on
Instagram at fifty Shades.
Speaker 5 (49:06):
Of Underscore Bullshit.
Speaker 3 (49:09):
And Facebook at fifty Shades of Bullshit. Thanks so much
for listening, and we really hope to see you again
next week
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