June 22, 2023 • 29 mins
On this show, Karolyn talks with integrative and radiation oncologist Matt Mumber, MD, about healing. In addition to being an exceptional doctor, Dr. Mumber is an accomplished poet and will describe how poetry in particular can help us heal. Dr. Mumber's newest poetry collection is called The Attending.
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Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Any health related information on the followingshow provides general information only. Content presented
on any show by any host orguests should not be substituted for a doctor's
advice. Always consult your physician beforebeginning any new diet, exercise, or
treatment program. Hello everyone, andwelcome to Five to Thrive Live. I'm
(00:44):
Carolyn Gazella and I co host thisshow with my good friend doctor Lise Olschuler.
Today we are going to talk abouthealing with one of my all time
favorite oncologists. But first I'd liketo thank our sponsors. Amuse, a
unique, patented p biotic that givesyour immune system a key advantage. A
Muse is an ingredient in many immunesupporting dietary supplements. Look for a Muse
(01:07):
on the label or go to amusehealthdot com for more information. Also Cognizance
cydicoline, which is nature's way ofkeeping the brain's energy producing centers firing on
all cylinders. If you're looking fora way to enhance your brain function,
including memory, focus, and attention, look for Cognizan on the label or
go to Cognizan dot com for moreinformation. And Doctor or Heroes probiotics it's
(01:29):
a best selling probiotic for more thanthirty years, and it contains twelve probiotic
strains that are shelf stable, sono refrigeration is required because of a unique
three year fermentation process, it's avery effective probiotic. You can learn more
at doctor Hiro Probiotics dot com andfor more than thirty five years. Guya
Herbs has extensive experience manufacturing high qualityurbal products for healthcare consumers and they have
(01:52):
a dedicated product line named Guya Protailored for healthcare practitioners. Healthcare practitioners can
learn more at Gaya Herbs pro dotcom and consumers can visit Gaya Herbs dot
com. And finally, pro Thriver'sWellness Sleep, a melotonin based sleep formula
specifically created for thrivers. Pro ThriversSleep is available through your healthcare provider or
(02:13):
online at pure Formulas dot com.With me today is doctor Matt Mumber,
who is a Board certified radiation oncologistwith the Harbin Clinic in Rome, Georgia.
Doctor Mumber is an accomplished author ofseveral academic and lay press books,
and his second book of poetry iscalled The Attending Doctor Mumber Welcome back to
(02:35):
the show. Thank you, Callen. It's great to talk with you,
great to hear your voice. Yes, I know it's been a while and
I love this topic. But beforewe talk specifically about poetry, how would
you define or describe healing? Whatdoes it mean to heal? Yeah,
so I think sometimes it's helpful tothink about what it doesn't mean. And
(03:00):
so in medicine we're very oriented towardsfixing or curing, and specifically being a
radiation oncologist and cancer care, we'revery oriented towards fixing or caring, and
there's nothing wrong with that. That'sa good thing. But healing is not
necessarily fixing or curing. Healing issomething bigger, and in some cases I
(03:23):
think is much more individualized and moredifficult than fixing or caring because it can't
be delivered downhill from an expert tosomeone else. It can't be done to
you. So healing is I like. There's a quote from a book that
I always like to use. It'sfrom a guy named Stephen Levine who wrote
(03:43):
a book called A Year to Live, and he said, if there's a
single definition of healing, it's tolook with mercy and awareness at those pains
both mental and physical, that wehave previously dismissed in judgment and dismay.
So healing, I think it learningthat definition is the whole things that are
very difficult that we'd rather not dealwith and basically be with them. Kind
(04:08):
of like when you're learning how toswim, you start off learning to swim
and very shallow water so that youcan stand up when you feel uncomfortable.
Healing is a lot like that.We learn how to touch those things that
are difficult and ultimately touch them withlove until as we feel more comfortable,
we're able to move into deeper waterand we continue to touch the hurting places
(04:30):
until only love remains. So that'skind of just very briefly what I think
of as healing. Oh yeah,and that's that's just wonderful, And I
think you're right. I think ithealing is so much bigger than fixing or
curing, and it is very individualizedbecause everybody's journey is different and as we
as we look back on those wounds, you know, we have to take
(04:53):
our own time with each one.So yeah, that's great, and that's
really what we're going to talk abouttonight is utilizing one strategy to help encourage
healing, and that's poetry. Sowhen did you start writing poetry and why
were you drawn to poetry in particular. I think the first poem I remember
(05:17):
reading was way back when I wasin grade school, and it was probably
Edgar Allan Poe, and so itwas kind of scary and unusual, and
so that attracted me to it.And then when I got into college,
I was fortunate enough to have atthe University of Virginia, it was part
of a cohort that didn't have topick a scientific major, so I was
(05:40):
able to explore the arts. Andone of the courses I took was poetry
writing, and I ended up actuallytaken a couple of semesters of it,
and so and then over time Iwas writing a good bit and then it
just kind of came back to meas a part of a really more based
in a spiritual practice ultimately, andas a way to cope with all the
experiences I was having and to understandthem better and in some way relate them
(06:06):
in such a way that others canunderstand them as well. Yeah, and
I want to get to the spiritualpractice because I think that that's one of
the fascinating things about your journey.Where do your ideas come from for your
poems? Usually pretty much on justbased on experience. So whatever I'm experiencing,
(06:26):
whether it's something I'm reading, orsome experience in nature, or some
experience in being a doctor or fatheror husband or friend or whatever it might
be. So it's it's basically justbased on an individual experience that I'm having
and then trying to relate that experiencein some way to others. And you
mentioned that this is a part ofa spiritual practice. Take us through that.
(06:47):
What does that practice look like andwhere does that come from for you?
Yeah? So I did a twoyear fellowship in at the Center for
Action and Contemplation several years ago,and I ran in a guy there named
Jim Finley who was a Trappist monkwho studied with Thomas Martin, and so
he taught a contemplative practice called lectiolexio divina, which is he basically rooted
(07:13):
it back to Christian contemplative practices andpretty much it's a way of doing divine
reading. That's what the word means. And so what you do is you
take something, a passage or somethingthat you can do video divina or anything.
And so you see or something youexperience and you basically contemplate that experience.
(07:35):
And so the first there's it's likea one I was first described is
called a ladder to heaven, andthere are certain steps to it, and
the very final step is to basicallyjust hold something kind of by being in
a cloud of unknowing. So youtake a step of this is what I'm
contemplating today, Like, for example, one of the poems I'll read today
(07:57):
is about a whipper wheel, andI was in my morning sitting time there
was this whipper wheel that just keptgoing and going and going, and so
that led me to contemplate, well, what's that whipper wheel saying? You
know? And then how would Isay it to another if I had to
try to explain it? And thenif I were to compose like a kind
(08:18):
of like a asking prayer to understandit or to learn something from it,
what would that look like? Andthen finally just kind of letting go of
everything and entering into a state ofwhat most people would call just focus meditation,
just basically allowing whatever comes up tocome up without holding onto it,
(08:39):
pushing it away, and then goingback down that ladder to you know,
what would I write about this experience? What insight is? Give it to
me? How would I relate itto others? And then going back to
the original kind of thought or premise. And then usually at that point it's
just there's something that kind of bubblesup, that just kind of comes out
of me. Basically, that's theonly way I can describe. Yeah,
(09:03):
well, I have a few questionsfor you, because that's that's a lot.
So I do understand that the lexiodivina divina process came from a religious
practice. Does it have to bereligious? Does does you're reading that you're
your divine reading? Is it religiousin nature? Or can it be anything?
(09:24):
Or what? What are your thoughtson that? No, I think
it could be anything. That theprocess itself is really just a specific contemplative
practice that I have kind of adaptedto my writing. And so any contemplative
practice has kind of three commonalities toit. Awareness, community, and connection.
(09:46):
And so anything that you can bewith bringing your awareness to it,
going into kind of connection, developinga connection to it, and then creating
some kind of community around it.Um those are all features of contempt practices,
and so the way that I developedthis writing was based on that as
a contemplative relating practice. So yes, and um, I'm just curious,
(10:13):
because I'm a very practical person.How how long does your practice take?
It really varies, you know,Okay, that's not very long. Most
of the time. It's when Iget really when I when I really something
strikes me. It's just like itmight take ten twenty minutes. Okay,
that's cool. So it's it's kindof like a typical sit in the morning
(10:35):
for me. I'm not one tosit in meditation for more than usually ten
to twenty minutes because I have alot going on, and so you know,
I basically just you know, sitand become present, and usually I
pay attention to my breath. That'smy favorite way of remaining tethered to the
present moment. And when my mindwanders off, I bring my focus back
(10:56):
to my breath, you know,if that's a thousand times, and so
what that looks like from a perspectiveof this practice, That breath focused keeps
me on each of those steps,and then the final step is always the
most kind of productive one and themost where where the I guess the juices
you might say, and that's sittingin kind of a cloud of unknowing.
(11:18):
It's another problem all ready today thatbasically just being ready for something to come
without knowing if it ever will typeof thing. Just kind of that state.
It's almost like like use a metaphor, like if you take mercurry out
of its amometer and let's sit there. It's kind of quivering. So you
just kind of they're ready for whatevercomes up, but then not knowing it
(11:41):
will ever come up. So beingcomfortable with that unknowingness, I think is
really a vital part of it.Yeah. Yeah, I would say in
the ten to twenty minutes, that'sexactly what I do as well. And
that's totally doable as a as amorning meditation. And you do it in
the morning as well, right typicallyI do. I'm kind of a morning
person and just get up real earlyand everything is quiet and nobody's bothering me
(12:05):
with the request for this without theother thing, and so I just can
be you know, And so it'sjust a really productive though for me.
So, um, can you canyou apply I know that you use this
as a spiritual practice, which thenis kind of the the springboard into your
poetry. It inspires poetry, Butcan you apply this um lexio divina practice
(12:31):
to other parts of your lives?For example, if you wanted to have
a focused meditation on building trust,you could potentially read something about building trust
and then contemplate it and then etc. Et. So, so is it
that versatile you could pretty much kindof guide it and manipulate it that way
to fit other parts of your life. I think so. I mean,
(12:54):
the one book that I would highlyrecommend to people is a book written by
Jim fanilis Christian Meditation, and that'swhere he describes the whole process of lexia
davina based on the twelfth century monkwho created a guy named Guigo. There's
a Carthusian monk. But it's Ithink it's a very adaptable practice, you
(13:15):
know, and it does not thatdoes not have to be spiritual or religious
or it can be used in anynumber of different ways. Yeah, I
like it. I like it.I could see where I could apply it
to my practice as well, becauseI would want to read, like something
in a mindfulness text and then maybecontemplate that. And so why is poetry
(13:37):
specifically healing? Is it the actof writing? It the act of reading
it or both. Well, Ithink we go back to that kind of
transformative definition of healing looking at thingsthat we kind of would previously dismiss.
There's lots of things that when youexperience them, you know, you just
kind of like either too busy orjust not aware of it enough to kind
(14:01):
of capture the essence of it.And so it's really about slowing down and
paying attention to every single moment andbeing there in every single moment and then
allowing that to inspire you. SoI think that's part of the healing,
and especially how you know, alot of poetry is contains difficult topics that
we can't unpackage unless we're kind ofcalm and at rest, and you know,
(14:26):
but it can also be unpackaging kindof the joy of being alive,
that type of thing. So soI think it can be healing doesn't have
to be you know, really hardgrueling work. It can also be m
you know, very very nourishing.Being able to be mindful and one of
(14:46):
my favorite teachers, Tick Knock onsat mindfulness is a source of happiness,
and so being able to be presentis a very happy thing to be.
Yeah, you've described described the characteristicsof of strategies that will instill healing,
you know, the awareness and slowingdown and inspiration. I'm doing research now
(15:07):
on the healing power of awe,which is fascinating and it has actually been
researched, and I just love it, and I honestly am in awe.
I've I've read your first book ofpoetry, and I love poetry and I
do try to read poetry on apretty frequent basis, and I am in
awe because I as a writer,I have to admit I'm a bit intimidated
(15:33):
by the act of writing poetry,not reading it as much as, like,
you know, trying to write it. But I'm curious what advice do
you have for someone who is intimidatedby by writing or even reading poetry.
Have you come across people like that? I know you do a lot of
seminars and a lot of one onone work with people. So what do
(15:54):
you do when someone's like, oh, poetry, No, I'm you know,
that's too intimidating for me. Yeah, well, I would empathize with
them, first of all, becauseI would say the majority of poetry that
I read is very indimiting, becauseit's just so thick. And there's a
(16:14):
lot of poetry that I just don'tresonate with, and so to me,
I just remember that it's okay thatI don't resonate with. That it's okay
for me to find my own voiceand for me to recognize pieces of my
own voice and the writing of others. And that's where you end up getting.
You develop people that you are tunedto and people that you like to
read and so and they just don'talways have to be the Nobel Prize winning
(16:40):
poets. You know, people likeMary Oliver. I love her work,
you know, and she's kind ofa very popular poet, but I love
the way all of everything she does. I love it. And so you
kind of find ways find people thatyou like and be true to yourself,
I think is really the most importantmessage. And you know, if it's
not poetry, maybe it's short stories, maybe it's art, whatever, it
(17:02):
ends up being um. And Ithink you can develop a contemplative practice around
anything, really any way of seeingand being um if you if you want
to. So it really just dependson what you want. Yeah, and
I would you know, also say, I mean, there's actually been quite
a bit of research about journaling andhow healing journaling is, and I would
(17:27):
put in and these are like scientific, rigorous studies that show that that journaling
is very healing. I would putthis in the same category. Um,
because it is a creative outlet andit's it's an expression. Um. Would
you put it in the same categoryas journaling or would you put it in
(17:48):
a little different category because this isthis can be more creative than journaling.
Um, I think both. Youknow, I think the one of the
biggest studies on journal whereas where peoplejust sat and free associated just wrote and
wrote and wrote, and the positivebenefits of just kind of letting stuff flow
like that. So it's kind ofa way of getting things out. And
(18:12):
I think, you know, poetrywriting can be like that. And then
there's kind of like a structure toit too, and so kind of the
editing part of it, or thereviewing and editing part of it, you
know, it takes That's where ittakes some practice and some time and kind
of being able to have mentors.I have several mentors that I send stuff
(18:33):
to and I get their thoughts onit, and you know, sometimes it's
just a little tweaking. So youknow, the first time I write it,
I really write it for myself,you know, and then after reading
it and thinking about it and developinga process. You know, there's all
kinds of ways you can have apoem being more accessible and still make the
same point. So it's good tohave people in the writing process that you
(18:56):
can bounce things off of. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Well, I would love to haveyou read a couple of your poems,
So if you want to choose one, and if you can tell us a
little bit about it, like whatinspired you to write this particular poem and
then read it, that would begreat. Yeah. Yeah, So the
first one I'll read is the oneI was mentioning about the whipper wheel,
(19:21):
and it was it was one ofthese things that the whipper wheel was doing
this, and then there was this, so I kind of started wondering.
I'm kind of into the Native Americanmeaning that everything, every animal, every
plant has a certain medicine with acapital M, so a certain kind of
(19:41):
power behind it. So I waslike, well, I wonder what the
medicine is of whipperwell, and therereally wasn't any, unfortunately, but there
were some some old wives tales.Basically, that of whipper Will was like
an omen that somebody was going todie, and so I was like,
oh, that's kind of kind ofcreepy in and so I started sitting with
that, and then I started sittingwith just being there in nature during the
(20:04):
time that I was there, andso then I just asked. I kept
kind of diving into that and thinkingabout my experience as I sat there.
And then I just sat and Isaid, Okay, what does this experience
mean? How would I say itif I was going to say it to
another you know, how would Iasked to understand this better? And then
literally just sitting in that kind ofmeditative kind of cloud of unknowing just being
(20:29):
there, and then kind of wentback down and then immediately, you know,
wrote some semblance of this and thenedited over time. And I participated
in several different writing groups. There'sa one of my mentors and name is
Liza Get and she's a wonderful poetand she has these little groups where about
ten or poets or so we'll writea poem every couple of a couple of
(20:55):
days a week, and then youknow, she'll help you, she'll kind
of give you some feed back onthe technical aspects of it. So this
poem actually came from part of that, and it's been edited to where it
is right now, and it's it'sgoing to be in my third book that
I started writing for, and itactually just recently got published online in a
(21:15):
forum first Self Healing, so itjust published today, So I can't remember
the name of the website, butanyway, it's called whipper Will, Whipperwill?
Why do you cry before the sunbestows the sky? Do you search
for a mate? Perhaps that's whyyou're up so late. Do your tip
(21:37):
your beak and bow? And inthe spring one wish allow continuous without a
breath? Are you an omen ofsome death? I sit here first dawn
and night and listen in with puredelight. That's great. I love that.
And I'm a firm believer an animalmedicine. I have an animal medicine
(22:02):
book. So if there's a ifthere's an especially a unique animal that I
see on my hike, I willtry to figure out the message. And
oh absolutely, yeah, yeah,well that was not the same thing.
Yeah, it's And I find thatit's very helpful actually seeing kind of us
in nature and then trying to figureout how they apply to my life.
(22:23):
That's a that's a form of youknow, of contemplat to practice, right,
trying to understand. Yeah, exactly, Well that was lovely. Do
you have another? Yeah, thisis the the final poem from the new
book, Um the Attending, andit again is just I love it.
It's very short. These are I'mjust reading a couple of those short ones,
(22:45):
um and it's called in a Cloudof Unknowing, and I was trying
to describe somewhat that state of justbeing in that place. There's actually a
medieval book entitled The Cloud of Unknowingthat was a again a Christian meditation book
on how to develop a relationship withGod and be in that space. So
(23:07):
this is in a cloud of unknowing. I am lost, floating in a
sea of cloud, face up,looking for you, beloved. I sense
no time or place, no hintof purpose, no guiding light. I
will stay bewildered behind let shadows bemy name. Yeah, that's and that's
(23:37):
interesting because I was I was havingsome thoughts before you were going to start
to read the poem, wondering ifyou were going to take a position on
like, oh, this is ascary place of being in this cloud of
unknowing or this is or this isa comfortable place or you know, and
yeah, I think that M doyour poems, do you do you want
(24:02):
people to feel something or or areyou pretty much like okay, you know
what whatever they get from it,they get from it and that and do
you do you kind of release itonce it's written? Yeah, I kind
of have to let go of it, you know, because and I'll have
different people tell me they get differentthings out of the same poem. So
(24:22):
I just kind of try to,you know, once it's complete, it's
complete, you know, I tryto let go. But otherwise I would
keep thinking about yeah exactly. AndI think it's almost better when there are
no strings attached, when when youknow, you're kind of writing it and
then you're giving it as a gift. And then when they open up the
gift, they can they can takefrom what they will. UM and it
(24:45):
can either resonate or it can not, or it can stir or it cannot.
And but releasing it as a gift, I think is uh is really
brilliant. Yes, Yes, Solet's talk a little bit about the attending.
First of all, UM, wherecan people get it? Yeah,
(25:06):
so it's available on Amazon, withinthe kindle and in paper format paper paperback.
Okay, and how much is it? I think it's like nineteen ninety
five for the paperback in nine ninetyfive for the kindle, I believe.
Okay, perfect, that's great.And then I know that you also have
(25:26):
a website. Um, what isyour website? Yeah, it's www dot
dotor Matt Mumber dot com and it'sd R yes Matt Mumber dot com.
And what can people find when theyvisit doctor Matt Mumber dot com. Um,
it's kind of a description of whatI do with regards to facilitating retreats
(25:47):
and groups, as well as thepoetry and just some different thoughts about health
and healing. And can they readsome of your poetry there as well?
I do have some older ones thatI'm though some of them were never published,
so they're actually before I wrote thefirst book, I think some of
them. So yeah, well there, so I've posted them occasionally. Great.
(26:10):
Well, before I let you go, I want to talk a little
bit about your work at Harbin Clinicand your volunteer. You're very much a
man of service, so in yourcommunity, you do a lot for cancer
survivors. Can you tell us alittle bit about that. Yeah, so
we after I did, I dida two year fellowship at the place where
(26:33):
your colleague, doctor also Alert,is one of the directors the University of
Arizona program Integrated Medicine. And duringthat process I was able to work with
the folks at Commonweal, which isa nonprofit in Ballinas, California, and
I worked specifically with Rachel Reman andgot to know her and went to a
couple of retreats to learn how tofacilitate groups and retreats, and basically started
(27:00):
a nonprofit here in Rome, Georgiacalled Cancer Navigators, And our focus expanded
over time to include not just retreatsand groups that we're focused on the transformational
aspect of healing, but also topacing navigation and trying to resolve some of
the access and disparities issues associated withcancer care and healthcare in general. And
(27:22):
so we've been doing that for twentysome years now. I know it's a
wonderful, wonderful organization and I Racheldoctor Reman is just one of my heroes.
Honestly, I've had the opportunity toread her wonderful books and to interview
her on several occasions and she's quitespecial. Yeah, well, good,
(27:44):
well, this has been great,Doctor Mumbers, thank you so much for
joining me. Oh Carol, it'salways a pleasure. Your work is awesome,
and appreciate everything you do. Well, thank you and we appreciate you.
And I'm encouraging our listeners to goto doctor Matt Mumber dot com.
And you can also check out CancerNavigators. I believe it's Cancer Navigators GA
(28:06):
dot org Za correct doctor number,Yes, I think it is. Yeah,
yep. Check out Cancer Navigators.Um. It's a wonderful organization in
Rome, Georgia helping a lot ofpeople. Well, that wraps up this
episode of five to Thrive Live onceagain. I'd like to thank our sponsors,
Amuse Postbiotic to give your immune systemthat extra boost, cogniz incidacoline to
(28:27):
help enhance memory, focus and attention, doctor o'hiro's award winning shelf Stable Probiotic,
Guya Herbs, makers of exceptional qualityherbal products, and pro Thrivers Wellness
sleep Formula. I also want toremind you that you can find past episodes
of this show and this podcast atI thrive plan dot com. Check it
(28:48):
out. I thriveplan dot com.All right, everyone, well may you
experience joy, laughter and love.It's time to thrive everyone. Have a
great night love. This is gonnabe love baby, good luck, good
luck to say. The scaby thatyou change for the city is five light
(29:12):
scream good love, Live,
Any health related information on the followingshow provides general information only. Content presented
on any show by any host orguests should not be substituted for a doctor's
advice. Always consult your physician beforebeginning any new diet, exercise, or
treatment program. Hello everyone, andwelcome to Five to Thrive Live. I'm
(00:44):
Carolyn Gazella and I co host thisshow with my good friend doctor Lise Olschuler.
Today we are going to talk abouthealing with one of my all time
favorite oncologists. But first I'd liketo thank our sponsors. Amuse, a
unique, patented p biotic that givesyour immune system a key advantage. A
Muse is an ingredient in many immunesupporting dietary supplements. Look for a Muse
(01:07):
on the label or go to amusehealthdot com for more information. Also Cognizance
cydicoline, which is nature's way ofkeeping the brain's energy producing centers firing on
all cylinders. If you're looking fora way to enhance your brain function,
including memory, focus, and attention, look for Cognizan on the label or
go to Cognizan dot com for moreinformation. And Doctor or Heroes probiotics it's
(01:29):
a best selling probiotic for more thanthirty years, and it contains twelve probiotic
strains that are shelf stable, sono refrigeration is required because of a unique
three year fermentation process, it's avery effective probiotic. You can learn more
at doctor Hiro Probiotics dot com andfor more than thirty five years. Guya
Herbs has extensive experience manufacturing high qualityurbal products for healthcare consumers and they have
(01:52):
a dedicated product line named Guya Protailored for healthcare practitioners. Healthcare practitioners can
learn more at Gaya Herbs pro dotcom and consumers can visit Gaya Herbs dot
com. And finally, pro Thriver'sWellness Sleep, a melotonin based sleep formula
specifically created for thrivers. Pro ThriversSleep is available through your healthcare provider or
(02:13):
online at pure Formulas dot com.With me today is doctor Matt Mumber,
who is a Board certified radiation oncologistwith the Harbin Clinic in Rome, Georgia.
Doctor Mumber is an accomplished author ofseveral academic and lay press books,
and his second book of poetry iscalled The Attending Doctor Mumber Welcome back to
(02:35):
the show. Thank you, Callen. It's great to talk with you,
great to hear your voice. Yes, I know it's been a while and
I love this topic. But beforewe talk specifically about poetry, how would
you define or describe healing? Whatdoes it mean to heal? Yeah,
so I think sometimes it's helpful tothink about what it doesn't mean. And
(03:00):
so in medicine we're very oriented towardsfixing or curing, and specifically being a
radiation oncologist and cancer care, we'revery oriented towards fixing or caring, and
there's nothing wrong with that. That'sa good thing. But healing is not
necessarily fixing or curing. Healing issomething bigger, and in some cases I
(03:23):
think is much more individualized and moredifficult than fixing or caring because it can't
be delivered downhill from an expert tosomeone else. It can't be done to
you. So healing is I like. There's a quote from a book that
I always like to use. It'sfrom a guy named Stephen Levine who wrote
(03:43):
a book called A Year to Live, and he said, if there's a
single definition of healing, it's tolook with mercy and awareness at those pains
both mental and physical, that wehave previously dismissed in judgment and dismay.
So healing, I think it learningthat definition is the whole things that are
very difficult that we'd rather not dealwith and basically be with them. Kind
(04:08):
of like when you're learning how toswim, you start off learning to swim
and very shallow water so that youcan stand up when you feel uncomfortable.
Healing is a lot like that.We learn how to touch those things that
are difficult and ultimately touch them withlove until as we feel more comfortable,
we're able to move into deeper waterand we continue to touch the hurting places
(04:30):
until only love remains. So that'skind of just very briefly what I think
of as healing. Oh yeah,and that's that's just wonderful, And I
think you're right. I think ithealing is so much bigger than fixing or
curing, and it is very individualizedbecause everybody's journey is different and as we
as we look back on those wounds, you know, we have to take
(04:53):
our own time with each one.So yeah, that's great, and that's
really what we're going to talk abouttonight is utilizing one strategy to help encourage
healing, and that's poetry. Sowhen did you start writing poetry and why
were you drawn to poetry in particular. I think the first poem I remember
(05:17):
reading was way back when I wasin grade school, and it was probably
Edgar Allan Poe, and so itwas kind of scary and unusual, and
so that attracted me to it.And then when I got into college,
I was fortunate enough to have atthe University of Virginia, it was part
of a cohort that didn't have topick a scientific major, so I was
(05:40):
able to explore the arts. Andone of the courses I took was poetry
writing, and I ended up actuallytaken a couple of semesters of it,
and so and then over time Iwas writing a good bit and then it
just kind of came back to meas a part of a really more based
in a spiritual practice ultimately, andas a way to cope with all the
experiences I was having and to understandthem better and in some way relate them
(06:06):
in such a way that others canunderstand them as well. Yeah, and
I want to get to the spiritualpractice because I think that that's one of
the fascinating things about your journey.Where do your ideas come from for your
poems? Usually pretty much on justbased on experience. So whatever I'm experiencing,
(06:26):
whether it's something I'm reading, orsome experience in nature, or some
experience in being a doctor or fatheror husband or friend or whatever it might
be. So it's it's basically justbased on an individual experience that I'm having
and then trying to relate that experiencein some way to others. And you
mentioned that this is a part ofa spiritual practice. Take us through that.
(06:47):
What does that practice look like andwhere does that come from for you?
Yeah? So I did a twoyear fellowship in at the Center for
Action and Contemplation several years ago,and I ran in a guy there named
Jim Finley who was a Trappist monkwho studied with Thomas Martin, and so
he taught a contemplative practice called lectiolexio divina, which is he basically rooted
(07:13):
it back to Christian contemplative practices andpretty much it's a way of doing divine
reading. That's what the word means. And so what you do is you
take something, a passage or somethingthat you can do video divina or anything.
And so you see or something youexperience and you basically contemplate that experience.
(07:35):
And so the first there's it's likea one I was first described is
called a ladder to heaven, andthere are certain steps to it, and
the very final step is to basicallyjust hold something kind of by being in
a cloud of unknowing. So youtake a step of this is what I'm
contemplating today, Like, for example, one of the poems I'll read today
(07:57):
is about a whipper wheel, andI was in my morning sitting time there
was this whipper wheel that just keptgoing and going and going, and so
that led me to contemplate, well, what's that whipper wheel saying? You
know? And then how would Isay it to another if I had to
try to explain it? And thenif I were to compose like a kind
(08:18):
of like a asking prayer to understandit or to learn something from it,
what would that look like? Andthen finally just kind of letting go of
everything and entering into a state ofwhat most people would call just focus meditation,
just basically allowing whatever comes up tocome up without holding onto it,
(08:39):
pushing it away, and then goingback down that ladder to you know,
what would I write about this experience? What insight is? Give it to
me? How would I relate itto others? And then going back to
the original kind of thought or premise. And then usually at that point it's
just there's something that kind of bubblesup, that just kind of comes out
of me. Basically, that's theonly way I can describe. Yeah,
(09:03):
well, I have a few questionsfor you, because that's that's a lot.
So I do understand that the lexiodivina divina process came from a religious
practice. Does it have to bereligious? Does does you're reading that you're
your divine reading? Is it religiousin nature? Or can it be anything?
(09:24):
Or what? What are your thoughtson that? No, I think
it could be anything. That theprocess itself is really just a specific contemplative
practice that I have kind of adaptedto my writing. And so any contemplative
practice has kind of three commonalities toit. Awareness, community, and connection.
(09:46):
And so anything that you can bewith bringing your awareness to it,
going into kind of connection, developinga connection to it, and then creating
some kind of community around it.Um those are all features of contempt practices,
and so the way that I developedthis writing was based on that as
a contemplative relating practice. So yes, and um, I'm just curious,
(10:13):
because I'm a very practical person.How how long does your practice take?
It really varies, you know,Okay, that's not very long. Most
of the time. It's when Iget really when I when I really something
strikes me. It's just like itmight take ten twenty minutes. Okay,
that's cool. So it's it's kindof like a typical sit in the morning
(10:35):
for me. I'm not one tosit in meditation for more than usually ten
to twenty minutes because I have alot going on, and so you know,
I basically just you know, sitand become present, and usually I
pay attention to my breath. That'smy favorite way of remaining tethered to the
present moment. And when my mindwanders off, I bring my focus back
(10:56):
to my breath, you know,if that's a thousand times, and so
what that looks like from a perspectiveof this practice, That breath focused keeps
me on each of those steps,and then the final step is always the
most kind of productive one and themost where where the I guess the juices
you might say, and that's sittingin kind of a cloud of unknowing.
(11:18):
It's another problem all ready today thatbasically just being ready for something to come
without knowing if it ever will typeof thing. Just kind of that state.
It's almost like like use a metaphor, like if you take mercurry out
of its amometer and let's sit there. It's kind of quivering. So you
just kind of they're ready for whatevercomes up, but then not knowing it
(11:41):
will ever come up. So beingcomfortable with that unknowingness, I think is
really a vital part of it.Yeah. Yeah, I would say in
the ten to twenty minutes, that'sexactly what I do as well. And
that's totally doable as a as amorning meditation. And you do it in
the morning as well, right typicallyI do. I'm kind of a morning
person and just get up real earlyand everything is quiet and nobody's bothering me
(12:05):
with the request for this without theother thing, and so I just can
be you know, And so it'sjust a really productive though for me.
So, um, can you canyou apply I know that you use this
as a spiritual practice, which thenis kind of the the springboard into your
poetry. It inspires poetry, Butcan you apply this um lexio divina practice
(12:31):
to other parts of your lives?For example, if you wanted to have
a focused meditation on building trust,you could potentially read something about building trust
and then contemplate it and then etc. Et. So, so is it
that versatile you could pretty much kindof guide it and manipulate it that way
to fit other parts of your life. I think so. I mean,
(12:54):
the one book that I would highlyrecommend to people is a book written by
Jim fanilis Christian Meditation, and that'swhere he describes the whole process of lexia
davina based on the twelfth century monkwho created a guy named Guigo. There's
a Carthusian monk. But it's Ithink it's a very adaptable practice, you
(13:15):
know, and it does not thatdoes not have to be spiritual or religious
or it can be used in anynumber of different ways. Yeah, I
like it. I like it.I could see where I could apply it
to my practice as well, becauseI would want to read, like something
in a mindfulness text and then maybecontemplate that. And so why is poetry
(13:37):
specifically healing? Is it the actof writing? It the act of reading
it or both. Well, Ithink we go back to that kind of
transformative definition of healing looking at thingsthat we kind of would previously dismiss.
There's lots of things that when youexperience them, you know, you just
kind of like either too busy orjust not aware of it enough to kind
(14:01):
of capture the essence of it.And so it's really about slowing down and
paying attention to every single moment andbeing there in every single moment and then
allowing that to inspire you. SoI think that's part of the healing,
and especially how you know, alot of poetry is contains difficult topics that
we can't unpackage unless we're kind ofcalm and at rest, and you know,
(14:26):
but it can also be unpackaging kindof the joy of being alive,
that type of thing. So soI think it can be healing doesn't have
to be you know, really hardgrueling work. It can also be m
you know, very very nourishing.Being able to be mindful and one of
(14:46):
my favorite teachers, Tick Knock onsat mindfulness is a source of happiness,
and so being able to be presentis a very happy thing to be.
Yeah, you've described described the characteristicsof of strategies that will instill healing,
you know, the awareness and slowingdown and inspiration. I'm doing research now
(15:07):
on the healing power of awe,which is fascinating and it has actually been
researched, and I just love it, and I honestly am in awe.
I've I've read your first book ofpoetry, and I love poetry and I
do try to read poetry on apretty frequent basis, and I am in
awe because I as a writer,I have to admit I'm a bit intimidated
(15:33):
by the act of writing poetry,not reading it as much as, like,
you know, trying to write it. But I'm curious what advice do
you have for someone who is intimidatedby by writing or even reading poetry.
Have you come across people like that? I know you do a lot of
seminars and a lot of one onone work with people. So what do
(15:54):
you do when someone's like, oh, poetry, No, I'm you know,
that's too intimidating for me. Yeah, well, I would empathize with
them, first of all, becauseI would say the majority of poetry that
I read is very indimiting, becauseit's just so thick. And there's a
(16:14):
lot of poetry that I just don'tresonate with, and so to me,
I just remember that it's okay thatI don't resonate with. That it's okay
for me to find my own voiceand for me to recognize pieces of my
own voice and the writing of others. And that's where you end up getting.
You develop people that you are tunedto and people that you like to
read and so and they just don'talways have to be the Nobel Prize winning
(16:40):
poets. You know, people likeMary Oliver. I love her work,
you know, and she's kind ofa very popular poet, but I love
the way all of everything she does. I love it. And so you
kind of find ways find people thatyou like and be true to yourself,
I think is really the most importantmessage. And you know, if it's
not poetry, maybe it's short stories, maybe it's art, whatever, it
(17:02):
ends up being um. And Ithink you can develop a contemplative practice around
anything, really any way of seeingand being um if you if you want
to. So it really just dependson what you want. Yeah, and
I would you know, also say, I mean, there's actually been quite
a bit of research about journaling andhow healing journaling is, and I would
(17:27):
put in and these are like scientific, rigorous studies that show that that journaling
is very healing. I would putthis in the same category. Um,
because it is a creative outlet andit's it's an expression. Um. Would
you put it in the same categoryas journaling or would you put it in
(17:48):
a little different category because this isthis can be more creative than journaling.
Um, I think both. Youknow, I think the one of the
biggest studies on journal whereas where peoplejust sat and free associated just wrote and
wrote and wrote, and the positivebenefits of just kind of letting stuff flow
like that. So it's kind ofa way of getting things out. And
(18:12):
I think, you know, poetrywriting can be like that. And then
there's kind of like a structure toit too, and so kind of the
editing part of it, or thereviewing and editing part of it, you
know, it takes That's where ittakes some practice and some time and kind
of being able to have mentors.I have several mentors that I send stuff
(18:33):
to and I get their thoughts onit, and you know, sometimes it's
just a little tweaking. So youknow, the first time I write it,
I really write it for myself,you know, and then after reading
it and thinking about it and developinga process. You know, there's all
kinds of ways you can have apoem being more accessible and still make the
same point. So it's good tohave people in the writing process that you
(18:56):
can bounce things off of. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Well, I would love to haveyou read a couple of your poems,
So if you want to choose one, and if you can tell us a
little bit about it, like whatinspired you to write this particular poem and
then read it, that would begreat. Yeah. Yeah, So the
first one I'll read is the oneI was mentioning about the whipper wheel,
(19:21):
and it was it was one ofthese things that the whipper wheel was doing
this, and then there was this, so I kind of started wondering.
I'm kind of into the Native Americanmeaning that everything, every animal, every
plant has a certain medicine with acapital M, so a certain kind of
(19:41):
power behind it. So I waslike, well, I wonder what the
medicine is of whipperwell, and therereally wasn't any, unfortunately, but there
were some some old wives tales.Basically, that of whipper Will was like
an omen that somebody was going todie, and so I was like,
oh, that's kind of kind ofcreepy in and so I started sitting with
that, and then I started sittingwith just being there in nature during the
(20:04):
time that I was there, andso then I just asked. I kept
kind of diving into that and thinkingabout my experience as I sat there.
And then I just sat and Isaid, Okay, what does this experience
mean? How would I say itif I was going to say it to
another you know, how would Iasked to understand this better? And then
literally just sitting in that kind ofmeditative kind of cloud of unknowing just being
(20:29):
there, and then kind of wentback down and then immediately, you know,
wrote some semblance of this and thenedited over time. And I participated
in several different writing groups. There'sa one of my mentors and name is
Liza Get and she's a wonderful poetand she has these little groups where about
ten or poets or so we'll writea poem every couple of a couple of
(20:55):
days a week, and then youknow, she'll help you, she'll kind
of give you some feed back onthe technical aspects of it. So this
poem actually came from part of that, and it's been edited to where it
is right now, and it's it'sgoing to be in my third book that
I started writing for, and itactually just recently got published online in a
(21:15):
forum first Self Healing, so itjust published today, So I can't remember
the name of the website, butanyway, it's called whipper Will, Whipperwill?
Why do you cry before the sunbestows the sky? Do you search
for a mate? Perhaps that's whyyou're up so late. Do your tip
(21:37):
your beak and bow? And inthe spring one wish allow continuous without a
breath? Are you an omen ofsome death? I sit here first dawn
and night and listen in with puredelight. That's great. I love that.
And I'm a firm believer an animalmedicine. I have an animal medicine
(22:02):
book. So if there's a ifthere's an especially a unique animal that I
see on my hike, I willtry to figure out the message. And
oh absolutely, yeah, yeah,well that was not the same thing.
Yeah, it's And I find thatit's very helpful actually seeing kind of us
in nature and then trying to figureout how they apply to my life.
(22:23):
That's a that's a form of youknow, of contemplat to practice, right,
trying to understand. Yeah, exactly, Well that was lovely. Do
you have another? Yeah, thisis the the final poem from the new
book, Um the Attending, andit again is just I love it.
It's very short. These are I'mjust reading a couple of those short ones,
(22:45):
um and it's called in a Cloudof Unknowing, and I was trying
to describe somewhat that state of justbeing in that place. There's actually a
medieval book entitled The Cloud of Unknowingthat was a again a Christian meditation book
on how to develop a relationship withGod and be in that space. So
(23:07):
this is in a cloud of unknowing. I am lost, floating in a
sea of cloud, face up,looking for you, beloved. I sense
no time or place, no hintof purpose, no guiding light. I
will stay bewildered behind let shadows bemy name. Yeah, that's and that's
(23:37):
interesting because I was I was havingsome thoughts before you were going to start
to read the poem, wondering ifyou were going to take a position on
like, oh, this is ascary place of being in this cloud of
unknowing or this is or this isa comfortable place or you know, and
yeah, I think that M doyour poems, do you do you want
(24:02):
people to feel something or or areyou pretty much like okay, you know
what whatever they get from it,they get from it and that and do
you do you kind of release itonce it's written? Yeah, I kind
of have to let go of it, you know, because and I'll have
different people tell me they get differentthings out of the same poem. So
(24:22):
I just kind of try to,you know, once it's complete, it's
complete, you know, I tryto let go. But otherwise I would
keep thinking about yeah exactly. AndI think it's almost better when there are
no strings attached, when when youknow, you're kind of writing it and
then you're giving it as a gift. And then when they open up the
gift, they can they can takefrom what they will. UM and it
(24:45):
can either resonate or it can not, or it can stir or it cannot.
And but releasing it as a gift, I think is uh is really
brilliant. Yes, Yes, Solet's talk a little bit about the attending.
First of all, UM, wherecan people get it? Yeah,
(25:06):
so it's available on Amazon, withinthe kindle and in paper format paper paperback.
Okay, and how much is it? I think it's like nineteen ninety
five for the paperback in nine ninetyfive for the kindle, I believe.
Okay, perfect, that's great.And then I know that you also have
(25:26):
a website. Um, what isyour website? Yeah, it's www dot
dotor Matt Mumber dot com and it'sd R yes Matt Mumber dot com.
And what can people find when theyvisit doctor Matt Mumber dot com. Um,
it's kind of a description of whatI do with regards to facilitating retreats
(25:47):
and groups, as well as thepoetry and just some different thoughts about health
and healing. And can they readsome of your poetry there as well?
I do have some older ones thatI'm though some of them were never published,
so they're actually before I wrote thefirst book, I think some of
them. So yeah, well there, so I've posted them occasionally. Great.
(26:10):
Well, before I let you go, I want to talk a little
bit about your work at Harbin Clinicand your volunteer. You're very much a
man of service, so in yourcommunity, you do a lot for cancer
survivors. Can you tell us alittle bit about that. Yeah, so
we after I did, I dida two year fellowship at the place where
(26:33):
your colleague, doctor also Alert,is one of the directors the University of
Arizona program Integrated Medicine. And duringthat process I was able to work with
the folks at Commonweal, which isa nonprofit in Ballinas, California, and
I worked specifically with Rachel Reman andgot to know her and went to a
couple of retreats to learn how tofacilitate groups and retreats, and basically started
(27:00):
a nonprofit here in Rome, Georgiacalled Cancer Navigators, And our focus expanded
over time to include not just retreatsand groups that we're focused on the transformational
aspect of healing, but also topacing navigation and trying to resolve some of
the access and disparities issues associated withcancer care and healthcare in general. And
(27:22):
so we've been doing that for twentysome years now. I know it's a
wonderful, wonderful organization and I Racheldoctor Reman is just one of my heroes.
Honestly, I've had the opportunity toread her wonderful books and to interview
her on several occasions and she's quitespecial. Yeah, well, good,
(27:44):
well, this has been great,Doctor Mumbers, thank you so much for
joining me. Oh Carol, it'salways a pleasure. Your work is awesome,
and appreciate everything you do. Well, thank you and we appreciate you.
And I'm encouraging our listeners to goto doctor Matt Mumber dot com.
And you can also check out CancerNavigators. I believe it's Cancer Navigators GA
(28:06):
dot org Za correct doctor number,Yes, I think it is. Yeah,
yep. Check out Cancer Navigators.Um. It's a wonderful organization in
Rome, Georgia helping a lot ofpeople. Well, that wraps up this
episode of five to Thrive Live onceagain. I'd like to thank our sponsors,
Amuse Postbiotic to give your immune systemthat extra boost, cogniz incidacoline to
(28:27):
help enhance memory, focus and attention, doctor o'hiro's award winning shelf Stable Probiotic,
Guya Herbs, makers of exceptional qualityherbal products, and pro Thrivers Wellness
sleep Formula. I also want toremind you that you can find past episodes
of this show and this podcast atI thrive plan dot com. Check it
(28:48):
out. I thriveplan dot com.All right, everyone, well may you
experience joy, laughter and love.It's time to thrive everyone. Have a
great night love. This is gonnabe love baby, good luck, good
luck to say. The scaby thatyou change for the city is five light
(29:12):
scream good love, Live,
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