🚨 For women, girls, AND men and boys | In conversation with Jessica Roda

Video version of this interview: https://youtu.be/blLciT0egb4

Jessica Roda just published the book "For Women and Girls Only" on Orthodox Jewish women's performances. You can find her book here: https://amzn.to/4jKRJgj

In this long form discussion we talk about what's happening in the scene of Orthodox Jewish women's performances. Because of modesty rules, women are not allowed to perform in front of men. So oftentimes their reach is limited. In Roda's work, she charts how women's perfomances has become a whole economy thanks to the internet and women's creative ways of approaching the Kol Isha issue.

Check out Jessica's book and Jessica on Instagram and Twitter:
https://x.com/RodaJess
https://www.instagram.com/jess_roda/ 

This interview is brought to you with the support of Fairfield University. This video is brought to you with the generous support of Fairfield University / Bennet Center for Judaic Studies. The Bennett Center for Judaic Studies is a unique academic center that strives to enrich the intellectual, cultural, and spiritual dialogue of Fairfield University. Continuing the vision of Carl and Dorothy Bennett, the Center fosters continued learning experiences and campus-wide awareness about Jewish history, ethical values, and religious observances. It also seeks to engage the Greater Fairfield communities through inspiring lectures and annual programs. https://www.fairfield.edu/academics/centers-and-institutes/bennett-center-for-judaic-studies/index.html

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello, and welcome or welcome back to this channel. My
name is Frieda Visel, and in this channel I cover
topics related to Judaism, New York City, in so societies,
and my special subject, Orthodox Judaism, which is where I
come from, although I have left it. One of the
things I pride myself on in my work is covering
a great deal of the female Hasidic or Orthodox sphere,

(00:23):
a world that is often very neglected in research, but
which for me, having known pretty much only this fhere
as a Hasidic female, growing up in this world, is
so naturally a part of the Hasidic story. I've brought
to you interviews with, for instance, the famous acidic woman
Pearl from Williamsburg, with the Exasiitic University of Toronto professor

(00:45):
Normi Seideman, with the comedian Leiah Forrester, with a singer
and comedian Ricky Rose, with my friend Jave Feldman, with
the Hasidic Martha Stewart, Raisie Fried with wonderful gifted cats,
with more, and of course with my own perspective, which
also comes from that world. I'm so grateful when this
subject is given serious academic attention, and so guess how

(01:07):
excited I was by the book For Women and Girls
Only by Jessica Roda. It tells the really amazing story
of what's been changing in the women's Asidic or Orthodox world,
larger Orthodox world. I have to say, the changes have
really surprised me. Well also ostensibly this world remaining modest

(01:28):
and for women and girls only. It's such a fascinating
story of a population often seen as nothing but downtrodden
and oppressed, and that the actual story is so much
more complicated, And so I'm delighted to discuss all this
today with the author of the book. Jessica Roda is
an author and anthropologist specializing in music and religion, and
is the Assistant Professor of Jewish Civilization at Georgetown University.

(01:52):
Welcome Jessica, and thank you for doing this.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
Thank you so much, Friida. This is such a honor
and a privilege to being covered with you today. Yeah,
I just wanted to say that.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
Well, you've now become by being on my channel, you've
become part of the subject. No, because my channel is
a part of the entertainment of the as I see it,
of the women and girls scene to some degree in
some ways, so by being a part of that, you're
now the subject of your research.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
That's true. That's kind of this interesting circle, right, yes, yeah,
and also being outsider, insider, who exactly are we when
we write and we are not coming from the community. Yeah,
so yes, that's very special.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah. So in that note, okay, can you tell us
a little bit about yourself. I don't know if I
know you besides for the fact that I was once
in Canada and I was walking in the street. I
think you were pushing the stroller and you were like, Hi,
I'm Jessica's something like that, and you said you were
doing research on this population. This is many years ago.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yes, that was many years ago. And indeed it was
at the really beginning in twenty sixteen when I was
living in Montreal and I was really helping the development
of this organization forward to support people who wanted to
leave the community. And I knew about you, and I
was very connected to essentially people who left. So talking

(03:19):
about me who I am? Yeah, and to write this
book as well. So I grew up in French Guyana,
a place that a lot of places, a lot of
people do not necessarily know in South America, where we
speak French and Creole. I'm French. My mom was born
in North Africa, in Algeria. My father was born in France,
coming from Sephardic family. But there was a mixed background

(03:44):
in my family from both especially from my mother's side
and that on my great grandmother's They were married Catholic,
so on my mother's side, so they became Catholic in
in North Africa. But my mom, and this is something
that I really talk about. My mom grew up in

(04:06):
a foster home with a lot of kids from you know,
Jewish kids, Muslim, Christian who were all a little bit illgitimate. Yes,
so that's her background. So and always the search for
you know, identity. It was something I grew up with.

(04:26):
My parents were hippies. They met in friends and they
decided to travel a lot. I have a brother. Even
with my brother, we travel in Australia and the Caribban
and a lot of different places. And they decided to
settle in French Guiana because you know, it was far
from the family and my mom wanted to always be safe.
As she she said, it's you know, very interesting life.

(04:47):
My father was a technician in ac so he stopped
school at fourteen. My mom went a little bit and
you know, longer in school. But we grew up in
a very diverse environment and I was already as a
small child fascinated by cultural diversity. I didn't grow up
at all in a Jewish environment. French Careani is essentially Christian.

(05:11):
I was drawn sometimes to churches. I had Christian friends,
and I was fascinated interested also in their life. Then
when I was twelve, I went to the UK to
meet a cousin, a part of the family that married
you know Ashkenazi, you know, Holocaust survivor, and this is

(05:34):
three cousins, and this is when I started to connect
a little bit with my Jewishness, also discovering at the
time one of the cousins was in the Kiputzen, Israel,
and you know, the journey startied. But then I went
in India, so another journey. And then when I moved
to France to study musicology at seventeen, I reconect really

(05:55):
with my Jewish rules and Jewish community and Jewish culture.
But it was stef you were a performer, yes, so
I was. I moved from French Calana to French to
studying piano flute, dance and musicology. But this journey was
essentially kind of a connection with Jewishness and the art.

(06:16):
But the connection between both just came when I actually
moved to Montreal as an exchange student in two thousand
and one and I discovered musicology. I had an amazing
mentor at the time, and I also discovered the same
time the Rasilic community. So my Jewish environment was really French, Sephardic,

(06:37):
North African and then you know, discovering and learning about
the Rasidic community and there also their music was like
blown away and I thought, oh my god, I want
to know more about this community who did the opposite
of my family. You know. Then I went back to
France and I spent I've met an amazing scholar and writer.

(07:03):
His name is Jeve Hoteen. He writes a lot about
He's the head of the Institute for Jewish Music in Paris,
and he offered me to work on people who were
more like me, who were disconnected from their jewishnists and
who were connected with music. And that's my journey into
the Sephardic world, into Latino music and you Spanish, So

(07:26):
that's my first life. I like to say that this
is my first life. And I wrote my first book
in French. And then I came back to Montreal. I
immigrated and and then I worked a little bit with
the amercan Jewish community Montreal. You know, a few few projects,
notably with the daughter of Samuel Magriby, who was a

(07:50):
very important uh he was a superstar in Morocco, and
then he became the canter at the Spanish and Portuguese
Salomon Momsalag's the name of the canter.

Speaker 1 (07:59):
And then.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
At the time in Montreal, we started to have Felix
and me, I don't know if you know this, this this,
I'm sure you know this.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
The movie, Yeah, I watched it.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yes, and I remember going there. It was like, oh
my god again like the facilic culture came back.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
We should probably explain what the movie the movie is,
or maybe we should insert the trailer here.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yes, yes, that's that's a good idea to maybe accept
the trailer.

Speaker 3 (08:28):
It's beautiful, right, ok.

Speaker 4 (08:33):
For your girl.

Speaker 5 (08:34):
My name is Felix, Okay, show.

Speaker 4 (08:42):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
Probably the Noise with the Mouth because it became very
very popular because I was the wonder An Award and
it was selected for a few other awards. Does a

(09:05):
slove story with a Hasidic woman who was saved by
this Quebec man. And I thought to myself at the time, Wow,
I want to I really would love to go back
and to learn about this community. And a few moments
I had a colleague. When I talked about that, one
person told me, you don't speak Yiddish, forget about it.

(09:26):
But you know, that's not a problem. You don't speak
the language, you can learn a little bit. Or it's
not your community, you forget about it. And then I
had a discussion with a friend at the time and
she told me about this underground community and people who left.
And at the time she told me about this documentary
what is the not one of us? It was a

(09:48):
Canadian one And then I blank, Eric, and what does
the Fauld there is fold in it? Oh my god, blanking,
I've never a it was it very particular, It was
not very popular because indeed, Living the Fould Leaving the

(10:10):
Fould now I remember about it. So this is by
my colleague and friend, Eric Scott. So she told me
about this film called Leaving the Fauld, but people living
in the community, and actually they talk about in the movie.
Eric Scott talked about Basia Basia Shaster. Yeah, also about
two and exactly, and also two other men from Montreal.

(10:34):
And then I was like, oh, there's this community of
people living and I said, I want to work there.
I want to do something I really wanted. At the time,
I lost a dear friend and I thought, I really
want to do research that is meaningful and that is
about connecting with people. And that's how everything started.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
Wow, how long did you work on the book? How
many years?

Speaker 2 (10:57):
You know? It's a good question. Also because I started
to do this research, I didn't know I will write
about the arts, that's my specialty. But at the time
I was fascinated by kinship beyond blood, and by this
idea of creating community beyond you know, your family. And
I was also interested in sexuality. So I started to

(11:18):
get access I would say twenty fifteen, and progressively, so
you read the book. So I also progressively connected with families,
with women in the community Montreal. I taught to piano
to some girls, also French, and then also to a
group of women, and it was just the idea of

(11:40):
connecting and learning about Hasidic life through the arts. I
was myself. I didn't see that. But I was from
Orthodox for a few years when I was in Montreal,
so I had a knowledge and understanding of you know,
from kite in a way more bad, I would say,
in some way, I think that the women you that

(12:01):
it wasn't My interest was not to become religious. Was
My connection was to the arts and music, and I think,
you know, because a lot of women are very proud
of that, and just to say that they also have
the artistic you know, talent in painting in a lot
of different sphere. So that was kind of a way

(12:24):
or so to connect. And I wrote the proposal in
twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, because initially the book was supposed
to be about male artists were public. So I interviewed
Lipashmelson at the time, I was starting to talk also
with Yankee Lammer.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
Oh really, maybe you should connect me to them because
I want to interview them from my channel.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
Yes, I'm sure, I'm sure they are there. Yes, they
out there. So Lipa was at Columbia at the time.
All right, you was at Columbia and I was at
Columbia as well, So we connected through that that lens.
It was in twenty seventeen and Yakie Lamer wrote him

(13:06):
in twenty eighteen, and I also try to reach out
to Shulim, but I think he responded. But we never
did the interview with both of them because I just
progressively the project. The women took over because my friend
in Montreal did say, yes, Jessica, we have this Rachel's place.
I said, what is Rachel's place? Yeah, you know, we

(13:27):
have musicals and very professional one and then there is
the one that we do in school in Montreal. And
it started to grow. So I thought, it's not about
men public and women private. There is something else here happening.
So I decided to say, okay, well by the man.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
That's great and yeah, because the story for men is
like out there, there's a part of what's so interesting
about the story for women is that they are negotiating
needing to be mod while also becoming very public. So
this is something your book really grasps different women dealing

(14:08):
with that in different ways. Some women deal with it
by not showing their faces, but many women deal with
it by saying, I am you know, just slapping a
label on for women and girls only, it's on you.
And also the way some women will work around rabbinic expectations.

(14:28):
It's a very complicated story. I sort of want to
touch on the nuances, but I want to start, I
guess from the beginning with like old school for women
only before the internet performances like okay, the Internet pretty
much changed everything, especially COVID. But before that, what kind
of entertainment, arts and entertainment scene did you experience, Because

(14:52):
I feel like in the book we get a sense
of what that was. You seem to have participated. What
did you experience was happening for women and girls in
the Orthodo community.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yes, so this is essentially actually the chapter Private Performer.
So this is what is happening in summer camp, what
is happening in schools, what is happening in closed doors?
You know, the gathering that women may have they decide
to do to just get together and to sing together
when the men are not there, or you know, the

(15:21):
shop stable as well, all those those this universe. I mean.
I started the book with the story of Goldie, and
that was I would say one of the most powerful
moment for me. The first time I went to with
her mother's bad dinner. And this is a very healthy call.
So actually her husband was involved in the music industry,

(15:43):
and somebody in New York connected me said, if you so,
maybe his wife knows something about music. So I wrote
him and then he asked her and she welcomed me.
And it took, you know, some time, and I remember
the first time it was very impressive because as a

(16:03):
described in the book, the girls were so kind of
proud also, and it was a kind of not a
competition between the boys and the girls, but they were
singing as loud as the boys, you know, and very confident,
and it was like polyphony, a lot of different voices,
and as we say in the community is very musical family.

(16:24):
It's a very very musical family. And then I told
the piano.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
This is at the sharp stable. Yes, this was at
the sharp stable.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
No, the piano was not at the shop.

Speaker 1 (16:32):
No, no, no, no, no, I mean I'm talking about
what you were experiencing, the girls and the boys singing.
It was at the shop stable.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yes, as the ship stable. And then also when we
were doing the piano lessons, that was also a universe
where there was a lot of a lot of song,
a lot of also the games and anytime there was
a sempier, you know, holidays, also I heard about oh,
they were going to the studio to record a song

(16:59):
and that it would be a gift. So that was
also kind of a very interesting aspect of it's not
the Internet, but actually then they were sending by email
to their cousins in New York or in Israel. But
that was a very special universe for them to make
music and to perform music. I mean, in my case,

(17:21):
I asked, as I told you, I taught them piano
as well. And following that, following some of them, I
was connected to other women who were also you know,
in New York and who had a recording studio, and
I trace you interview now me statement, So I trace
really this the emergence, I mean, the transformation of this

(17:43):
this uh for women and girls only practices into a
market or commodity to the you know, the schools actually
through Saraghers where she developed and integrated theater as a
way for girls to connect and to feel, you know,
entertain The entertainment feels for me always very very vibrant.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yes, yes, for women, yes, oh yeah yeah. First of all,
I'm just gonna say Sceneier is the founder of the
Basiaco of movement. She founded in Poland in the nineteen twenties,
I think nineteen thirties, she was revolutionary and bringing religious
education to girls, and for her performance was an integral
part of the religious education for girls, and that legacy

(18:28):
has trickled down. Even though I went to like a
satomore girls school, we still had performances more so than
the boys. And I would say that's probably the basiaco
of influence. But also I had a really funny discussion
with my cousin recently where I told her, aren't you
going to one of those slight presentations during passover during
the intermedia days when everyone's going And she said, Eh,

(18:51):
you know what, I'm just not up for the screaming.
And I'm like, what do you mean the screaming And
she's like, the show hasn't even started, and everyone's.

Speaker 3 (18:59):
Like, like the way she described it, you can just
see like the first beat is on the screen and
the entire audience is like absolutely Rapture's like.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Amazing, And she because, like, I'm not so excited about
these things anymore, but it seems to be the the
littlest things are so exciting. And it reminded me of
my own experience when I was a teenager. M Uh,
there was a family that rented the slide presentation forgotten.

(19:33):
Have you heard of this Israeli woman who makes slide shows?
What's her name?

Speaker 5 (19:39):
You know?

Speaker 2 (19:40):
I don't know her name. I don't know her name.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
I think it's mentioned in the book.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
Not Miriam. Miriam Israeli is a composer, So that's that's
who's uh? Or is she a filmmaker who made the
filmmaker the films, one of the pioneer.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, one of the pioneer filmmakers. We called it a
slide show. Yes, I don't remember her name either. It'll
come to me, but.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
It's in the book Soul. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
Well, look at the people will read the book and
that can find it there. This is a good plug
for the book. I'm going to leave the book. Yes,
but I don't remember her name, but her show made
a very big impression on me because it was the
beginning of entertainment for females. So I was born in
eighty five and I was maybe ten thirteen years old

(20:24):
when someone rented the slide presentation Forgotten. And it was
like a bunch of slides on a wheel and you
turned on a cassette to run alongside the slides, and
it was about someone who had amnesia, and we weren't
allowed to go to the performance, but we looked at
it through the basement window. We looked in and we

(20:47):
watched it that way, and it was like the most
amazing experience of my life to like, I can now
watch the most high production value yeah movie and it'll
not come close to gotten from peking in through the
basement window to watch that. So that that, like, I
guess the reason I'm bringing it up is because it's

(21:09):
like there was a world of female performance. That's that
I'm remembering as I read your book that started to
develop that was like incredibly exciting. There's a lot of
energy around it.

Speaker 2 (21:23):
And you know, even the first one who had you know, recordings,
rochan Leah Miller that I talk about, I interview her.
Actually she gave me a lot of cassette and I
did transcription a transcription. Now I have it digitally and
I send it to her. This first generation who were
playing a little bit with the recording as well, and

(21:44):
that they had cassettes and they you know, they were
doing recording, they were doing tours, but they were not
in the magazine so it was just word of mouth.
So and I remember I did an interview with a
woman in Montreal who was part of the first group
in the thirties in Williamsburg with the first Besiakov cohort,

(22:09):
and I asked her, did you have you know what
about the entertainment and even following she said that it
was that at the time it was very almost nothing.
So it was very hard to to identify also the
transformation of what exactly happened, you know, before pre war
post war. But it's clear that some scholars were saying

(22:31):
also that in the in the seventies, Sathmore studied to
be much more strict in terms of not having non
Jewish you know, content or play. So when you start
to have those kind of rules, it means that it existed.
Otherwise you don't have the nord. Why would you forbid
exactly why would you forbid? It's because you have it,

(22:51):
and it's not because you say that you cannot have it,
that it's not going to appear, you know. But that's
pretty clear that in the maybe in the already in
the sixties, you you know, it would be interesting to ask,
actually the this is something I didn't do that much
to interview generation of like your parents, for instance.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
It is interesting because my mother did. My mother went
to buy sacho because there wasn't a submer yet, and
we grew up with her telling us the stories of
the place she had seen, which often didn't have a moral,
you know, they weren't about faith. There were just comedies,
like a comedy about a king who had very stupid constituencies,

(23:36):
who did stupid things. It had no moral. My mother
would tell us the story. We wouldn't be exposed to
what she had been exposed, so some supposed Yeah, what
you're saying is very true. There was a construction for
us of things she had been exposed to that we
weren't allowed to have anymore.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the idea of developing or transforming
the play, you know, maybe taking the musical content but
she it and making faith faith and Jewish more specifically,
you know, this idea of making a Jewish player. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
Yeah, And that's actually something I was curious to hear
from you about. You went to one of those plays
or did you go? Yes, yes, okay, you want to
tell me about the experience.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yeah, which one are you asking? The one in the school.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah, the school play, an old school assioned Hasidic school play.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
So I even had the luxury principle of the school
trusted me and I watched one of the few recordings
of the school. So I worked with this school and
it was it was I was just blown away. I
was the only one who was not. You know, it's
my dear friend who gave me access.

Speaker 6 (24:45):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
It's every three years, three years in Montreal, and I
was just blown away, not only by but the fact
that they did it in three weeks extremely fast. The costumes,
the colors, the fact that a lot of material were
also pre recorded to make sure that the quality would
be you know, good enough and on you know, a
certain tune, the dancing, the choreography, so the fact that

(25:09):
you had in an entire team of the head of
the dance, the head of the choir. Also that everybody
had a little part, so all the girls had a
little solos to give visibility. There was something interesting also,
and I don't develop that much in the book about visibility,

(25:29):
trying to include and to you know, there was a
girl with a down syndrome who was at the center
giving all the attention instead of you know, putting on
the side, pushing her to the side and making her
in physical I wonder, you know how it was, yeah,
twenty years ago, but that was very interesting. The fact
that the emphasizer of was we need to give voices

(25:52):
to all the girls. And they had auditions as well,
and it was over a few nights, so I was
very and in you know, everything it was in Yiddish,
so it's not like I know that in bora Pocket
is kind of a mix. Everything was in Yiddish. I
had the script. There was a religious story the Greek
you know who trying to you know, to convert the juice.

(26:12):
But in the end they were successful to keep the faith.
But I was very It was the kind of any
any kind of amazing play that you you know, you
go to any school even maybe better, you know so,
and they work very hard. Actually, there's gonna be another
one now. It's usually December January. So my friends said,

(26:34):
if I want to come again, and yeah, and everybody
it was long.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
Do you feel out of place when I go there?

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, a little bit, a little bit.

Speaker 1 (26:45):
Do you hear in a ponytail or?

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no, I have a little band. Yeah,
I I of course I don't dress that way, even
if you know, when I go into Tromba, now they
know me. I used to live also doing but anytime
I enter the home, I really go. It's nel so
no no question. And of course in those spaces, but
even that way, you know, it's like who is this one?

(27:09):
You know?

Speaker 1 (27:10):
Yeah they can tell.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yeah, but I'm okay, I'm good that that's fine with
the with the look, you know. So I was. I
was very surprised, bye bye, and and I talked about
it in the in the performing the chapter on the
private performer. What do you mean? It was long?

Speaker 1 (27:31):
It's like, no, yeah, there is intermission.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
There was an intermission, but it was maybe three hours.
And also I went for the rehearsal the day before,
so it was very long. I don't know if you
but everybody, you know you can speak, you can, you can,
but it was long. It was very long. They worked
very hard.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
You know why only three weeks.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Because they didn't have that much time. I think because
they wanted they needed to have the INTI, your team,
the costume and everybody. And before that they have school.
So this is the break, you know, because they have
the winter break. So because the school I was working with,
So they are they follow also the calendar of regular

(28:16):
school in Montreal, so they don't they have the weeks
the two weeks almost two weeks and then they need
to go back, so the schedule to have so much
time to be able two years. So and then of
course you have I didn't go to summer camp, but
then I know that in summer camp they also do it.
But it's different, I see.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
So you know there used to be plays, and there
used to be comedy shows like Leigh Forrester. Yeah, I'm
wondering if you can describe what has been changing over
the years, like over the last twenty years and this
female I know, it's a big ask, it's a big question.
We can no, I can't.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
There is a big, big change. This is the core
of the book is that it was essentially social maybe cultural,
and you know, for religious purposes. And now this is parnase.
This is an economy. This is a very vibrant economy.
It's also global. The fact that there's a circulation of

(29:15):
plays from you know, Monsey to Montreal to London, a
circulation of material, a circulation of artists. So you had it,
but it's just an explosion. And also there has been
a very strong democratization, the fact that all the girls
can just go in a studio for not that much
money and record it, you know, so the flexibility of

(29:39):
making music. You don't need necessarily to be good at
the piano, to be good at the guitar. But if
you want to make a little bit of music, okay,
you need to you know, a computer somebody. Even if
you don't sing very well, there is a way for
you to have something and to so the democratization of
the music in the film as well, the fact that

(30:01):
now you have you have films as well. So yeah,
we are now into a market on one hand for
the most private one and informal market and the one
who decided to really go fully and to say we're
gonna be in the industry, in the Kosher music industry,
we're gonna do the same level than men like Brah Shaffa,

(30:24):
they were Schwartz, the Bigbama as well those one or
Haya Cogan, Shandy Platsker who are kind of Hasidic also Ledvish.
But this creates also a community where it's not only
which community are you coming from? A you belts are
you Satmar Are you girl? Are you know? There's a

(30:45):
kind of are you Bob? I'm talking about the the
film like MARKI we Garden. But no, there's this community
of froom female artists. And that's the other big change
I would say. Oh, and the third one is the
explosion also of connecting to wellness and disability. You know,

(31:05):
all those programs with the arts.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yeah, that's interesting. I think with regards to the second
point about the community of artists, I think this is
something a lot of people on my channel are often
confused about. Why don't you bring on this person or
that person that I don't I usually try to bring
on people, for instance, who are Hasidic. That's like what
fascinates me. But I think this is very correct in

(31:28):
your book. You can be let's say, a more modern
what you call modern ultra Orthodox women, and you would
never be accepted in let's say Carriage Joel, where I
grew up. You're too modern. But a contingent of people
in Carriage Joel will consume that media. So even though
there is a cross section of different kinds of Orthodox

(31:50):
women working in this sphere, their reach is generally throughout
the entire Orthodox fhere.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yes, and the author interesting soul Doby bum first and
is Hassidic. She's coming from a Hasidic family from London.
I talk about it also in the book Honey Rosengarten.
She's you know, the writer who is from from New Square, right,
but she she moved out from New Square. So you
have some some Hasidic figure like this who are artists

(32:19):
and who indeed they wouldn't be it wouldn't fit anymore
into New Square or two curriers Joel, but because the community.
So here's Joel. You know. There is this band by Toby, right,
so we created this band and she performed in this
facility for women you know when they I forgot the name.

(32:42):
I didn't go there when they give birth, so exactly,
so she performs there. She has also other types, but
it's a very you know, she's not online, she's not right,
she she this is very very different type of production.
But indeed the fact that when you go to Montreal

(33:02):
and I said, oh yeah, I interviewed brah Jaffa and
they're like clack desk, you know, or when I talk
about Malki one Garten is also Hasidic, but still the
consumption and it was a Satimar family, you know, even
if some will not go to the concert. But actually
Braha was invited in some women only events to come

(33:23):
to perform. And I think that they would rather invite
Braha because she's not from the same community than inviting
somebody like Dobie Baum, who's you know, Hasidic, but who
may Okay, this is okay, she's like you know flat Bush,
she's not well, she's not Satmar. But imagine if you

(33:43):
have you know, a Satmar you know, celebrity that would
be a little or somebody who moved away. I don't
think they would be as comfortable. Yeah, there is any
other person didn't leave, you know.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
Yeah, there's an element of not trusting people who are
on what's called the slippery slope. Like if you have
made changes and you're one of us, then we trust
you less than if you're a complete outside. Well, if
you're an Orthodox woman but you're an outsider, then that
makes your modernity more trustworthy.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Exactly, exactly, Yeah, you put it greatly.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
Let's let's talk about some of these women stories. Toby
first of all, really fascinated me.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
Toby.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
She has a band and she's in curious Joel what
is she what is she doing? What is her story?

Speaker 2 (34:30):
So she's teaching also instruments, she's teaching violin. She has
a lot of groups of girls. She has those private practice.
This private practice, she rent a studio where you can
learn violin, you can learn. So she's fascinated by instruments.
So she wanted to learn the saxophone, so she ordered
a saxophone and then she started to learn by herself.

(34:54):
The same thing with the violin. So she's also playing
the channel and she she is just fascinated and inspired
by by music, and she wants to create possibility for
girls to have this this this opportunity. And also the
band is with other women, and sometimes they do they

(35:14):
go from community to another. Yeah, she's a very and
and she has the full support or so of her husband.
But indeed they are careful also to make sure that
you know you ready did the interview. She's people know her,
but they don't really know her. So she still be

(35:35):
but without her family name. In case you know it
goes don't because it's all a lot about don't ask,
don't tell, right, what do you mean by that?

Speaker 1 (35:44):
Can you explain what you mean by that?

Speaker 2 (35:46):
By the fact that she didn't ask if she can
do the band. She you know, didn't go to rabbinic
authority to have a share. And same thing with most
of the women for the for the for the film,
and they don't want so they will not do that,
you know, maybe some of them will. Yes, I think

(36:06):
Shandy Platsker asked me. It was in the introduction because
I exchanged also my mactor what I wrote with some
of them, and she said, actually, I ask. So she
wanted to make sure that you know she's she because indeed,
rabbinic couthority is like pretty broad. But yeah, that's to be.

(36:28):
I talk also in this chapter about Blimy. She's also
she's in Williamsburg. There was a story and I think
you Frida, you mentioned the you remember when it was
a backlash shimes.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
Yeah, I did a video on it. It's one of
my first videos. It didn't get a lot of views,
but it was about chimes. It was a woman, her
name is Blimy, that was at the center of it.
I didn't even know because I only have the ad
for chimes, like and it says, come to this comes
it maybe I can edit it into this video and
then the rabbis who are like this is unacceptable and

(37:03):
saying the most ridiculous things. Well to the modern ear,
which is like the woman should be in the home,
they shouldn't be doing consists.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, so she is not advertising, but she still has
a studio.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
She still has her studio. See this is such a
great example. So a story that the media might take
away from something like this is the Hasidic community shuts
down women, women being bullied the end. But the actual
story is two extremist rabbis picking on a woman who

(37:39):
strategically keeps her head down until that passes and survives.
And those rabbis have limited power. Right, their power was
to bully her for five minutes, and if she strategically
responded to it, she's able to navigate it and to
sort of disarm them.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
Yes, so indeed, it depends on which type of feminists
or agents. I hate to say that because they would
not like the fact that I will use feminist. It
depends on which type of women you are, right, which
type of you know strategy you want. But there is
this idea of do you want to win the war
or the battle? So and you can go after you

(38:18):
know each battle or just like ya, what is the
war the fact that they want me to shut down? No,
I'm going to continue, but I'm gonna lose the battle.
I don't care. I find out ways.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
Yeah, so she was like, I'm canceling the get together
of playing music. I'm waiting it out. And she continues
to just yeah, to just teach music. And I'm sure
by now she's probably back to getting women together to play.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
Yes, I mean, you know, personal life, she might be,
you know, very busy now. But yes, And I visited
her too after writing. Actually, I had a friend who
put me in touch with her, and I had this
privilege of going to her studio where she teaches. It
was incredible with so many instrument everywhere. Yeah, it was

(39:03):
very very special.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
Wow, what are the ages of the women who would
go to her studio?

Speaker 2 (39:08):
Oh so for the for the for the classes essentially
for girls, but then for the coms, it's it's you know,
anyone you know. And I've been to a few gathering
like this also. You know, you may have a discussion
about issues of fertility or women and then at the end,
you know, they want to sing and you have you know,
somebody who who came out I don't remember. Maybe actually

(39:31):
that night was from it was a New Jersey the event,
no Long Island, And indeed somebody came with a guitar
I think from maybe from from Moncy, I don't remember,
and just playing a little bit little entertainment and everyone
sings along.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
Yes, what did they play? Yiddish song the guitar.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
Yes, Yiddish song. That was Yiddish song. There was suchial
a Yiddish song that night, and there was no English.
Actually there was no English.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
Do you know have you picked up any of the
hassiitic Kiddish songs along the way?

Speaker 2 (40:06):
No, I don't remember. That was two years ago, and
I didn't know. I mean in general general, in general
those gathering, No, not that much, no, because I didn't
attend that many of those those gathering, those private gathering.
But for instance, in the play, in many cases they
will take you know, either traditional song or new popular song.

(40:28):
There was this album of Yiddish chords, I have it here,
and they decided to take the same melody and they
just transformed the lyrics so kind of the hot you know,
songs that are usually performed by men, and they will
take the same melody.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
Like which song jingle.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
You know this album, No I do not, so they
have so it's.

Speaker 4 (40:54):
Motion Loarfare and Aftali Schnitzler production and the composition I
don't remember why it was, but as essentially kind of
new new compositions, you know, something like this.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
I see, I can.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
I can share with you and if you want to
put it the original, we can, we can put it.
And then uh not the women, because this is also
something I do. I never for the private one, I
never advertise it. But the one who's you know, celebrity,
they have no problems. It's for women and knows only
it's out there. It's the responsibility of men. But the

(41:38):
one who are you know, private the school or a
private performer, I never accept I mean, not publicly. But
I can share with you and.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
I get that, you know, I get that. I would
love I would love to do a video like watching
Rachel's Place show like they do these like any right
I think they did and adaptation. I have never watched
any of these because my family was so conservative that
we there were some families in Cairo show that watched things,

(42:10):
and my family was too conservative for it. So I
never except for Forgotten through the Basement window. I never
saw these like English language women's performances as a kid,
so I don't know what Rachel's play is like, for instance,
what those plays are like. And I really really would
love to share it with my audience. In an ideal world,

(42:31):
I'd watch it, i'd summarize it, I'd do a video
about it. But I would never do it because it
would be a violation of these women's like ask, which
is it's for women and girls only, even if some
of them might quietly secretly wish that their work would
be out there.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
Yes, but I think the one that on YouTube you
may be able, yeah, Rufa Doobia, but they're not plays.
The music, no, there are music, Yes, that's true, but Malki, yeah,
Malki gin girl, she would never Yeah. And the Racial Splace,
I mean you can buy the DVDs, so it's it's accessible,

(43:08):
but yeah, they don't make it available on YouTube. And
the other important part is that all those plays when
they're you know, it's it's for sadaka right, So they're
collecting money for because Racial Splace is a is a
place to help girls who are you know, actress go
on the street. So this is really as well, Yes,
so this is a home racial space and the Miriam

(43:32):
Handler who was the musical director. But this is a big,
big organization, I see.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
And you also, I think talked about like some of
the musical performances being for like infertility charities or something
like that.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yes, that there was a controversy around the song Zacchini,
recorded initially by Benny Friedman, and men himself were saying, hey,
where this is a song for a women's fertility to
encordress to donate them, you know, just before lighting the
candle for shamas, and then you don't have women. So
then they decided to record the workshorts and.

Speaker 5 (44:14):
As I stand in candle light with my hands upon
my eyes, there's a passion in my PRIs interesting.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
You know why that part was particularly interesting was because
for a while there were advertisements and Hasidic Williamsburg for
this infertility charity that were two giant posters on a
like street pole. On the one side it was an
old man alone on a couch looking despondent, and on

(44:48):
the other side it was this old man with a
bunch of children and grandchildren, and it was like, this
is what your funding is doing. It's bringing him joy.
The woman who is really at the center of the
infertility story is not pictured at all at all at all,
And it's all about presenting the pain of infertility through.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
This older man man.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
Yeah, and when I walked through, I'm not surprised. Yeah,
I'm not surprised either. But like when I walk through
the streets of Williamsburg, I just see the posters. I
don't see commentary, I don't see reactions. It seems to
me like integrated in the fabric of the neighborhood, where
people are like, well, this is what you got to
do in order to not get in trouble with like zelots,
who are going to say what are women doing on

(45:35):
the street on the street signs? But the Internet seems
to be a space where you can say something and
where women are saying something or people are saying something.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
And you know the magazines as well, depressed. You know,
I just have living over there, you know, stack of
Ami leaving. So you won't see also their face, the
miss Baker all nine, you know, No, you won't see
also their face. But you can google some of them,

(46:07):
you know, and you will see their face. But the
others decided that they won't. They won't do that, and
we didn't talk about it. But I'm curious also if
you had a change to look at the last chapter.
Also about the artists who left the community.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
Yes, I want to talk to you about that in
a minute. I just want to talk about the It
is very interesting. But the face issues especially interesting because
I think a lot of women are sympathetic to not
showing faces.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
Yes, totally, totally. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
Yeah, Like there are people like Flatbush Girl who is like,
let's show faces, but I think a lot of women
are very okay with that.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
Yes, And actually it's interesting that on the music video
of Zachini Mariam Israeli, who composed a song, she was
totally okay for her. The opposite the same thing. Halah
new House is very interesting. Hannah new House, she's a
hail composer. She's now based in Linkwood and she composed
for men. That's why you know her way to become

(47:03):
also famous and to make her music out there. But
she has performance with thousands of girls. She I went
to one two years ago. But you will never see
her face even for her studio. She has this very
famous studio. You won't see her face, you won't hear
her voice. On nine. But she supports you know, women
that brah shafa. There were shorts who are doing it,

(47:24):
but this is not her norm, you know, and she
doesn't want, you know, to go there. So that's you know,
interesting dynamic.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
Another thing that's interesting is that even in the most
conservative communities, women will perform voice wise with lectures. They'll
give lectures on hotlines, or they will not give lectures
in video. It's almost like video is the line that
a lot of women won't cross.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
That's true the face because also, yeah, the hotline. When
you can listen to a new composition even singing some
of the I remember this that I talk about in
the Private Performer it was oh my god, I forgot
the name of the song that it was. They did
a cover in English in Yiddish. I think it was

(48:11):
Harashote was initially performed by Beny Friedman, and then they
did a cover in English and in English, in Yiddish
and in English. But you were able to compose hotline
to listen to it.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
It's interesting because the real prohibition for women is singing.
You know, there now has to be heard singing. And
I think, when I think about it, why they are
so much more careful about their faces. First of all,
as a content creator who puts my face out in
the world, I think there's a lot of pressure on
women on presenting their faces that there isn't in the voice.

(48:47):
So that's like outside of modesty, I find it really
difficult to have my face involved with my work. But
also I think it speaks to the community's insularity that
once your face is out there, become I'm a celebrity.
And the idea of the celebrity is still evolving in
this world.

Speaker 2 (49:04):
Yes, constantly moving. I think it's it's a good question
because indeed, but on the other hand, the Internet just allows,
you know, to break the boundaries of both of the
sound and of the the voice. But yet the fact
that you still have the hotline and even the recording studio.
You can have the song circulating from a house to another.

(49:28):
But I will do that also with photos with family,
you know, private photos, but not so much.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
Videos, not so much women filming, singing.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
And dancing, yes, acting, you know, like the movement of
the video. Yes that's true, that's true, But maybe it
will change. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
How do you find that the concept of celebrity is changing.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
This is such a big, big topic. But indeed the
tension between the individual and the collective that is indeed
connected to modesty, to what exactly supposed to how are
you supposed to be at the center. So what is
fascinating with the development of the industry is that they
also justify or doing it for the girls. And that's

(50:12):
how they are able to maintain this for women and
girls only. But it's to serve the girls, to make
sure they have good road models, that they have good
messages instead of you know, slippery side to go and
to listen, and to have other type of role model.
So they are serving the collective. And this is where
also we can learn I mean when I say we

(50:34):
the liberal world can learn about those different ways of
being famous, right then creating a community, I mean the
internet also transcends the border. But there is something very
interesting in this indigenization of the celebrity culture and also
new ways of because they are a small community, those celebrities,

(50:54):
they're very small, but they are consumed largely. I mean,
one of the music video is half a million view,
I mean always consuming. It's hard to say, but there's
definitely a large group of women consuming that and it's
in North America and now have a group of colleague
in Israel. They're working on the same project, not the
same project, but to investigate women only performance, which is

(51:18):
a different, very different things happening in Israel.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Oh really, do you know what's happening?

Speaker 2 (51:25):
So, for instance, for sli Heart, because it's subsidized by
government to have events that are religious, cultural, artistic and
also for women. So my friend Ami Genter Cohen, who
is writing, who's working on this with Abigail Wood, they
have this project in Israel and they found out that
actually there was last year forty I think if I remember,

(51:47):
probably over forty concert I mean sli hot that women
were organizing. The other interesting aspect is you have a
school for film for the industry. They also have program
within the music department where you know, you can have
women only So the fact that indeed the state facilitates

(52:08):
you know, gender I mean women only you know, courses
or education, it creates it's it's a very yeah, it's
pretty different.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
That's a very interesting like maybe there's the profit mode
of you need to recoup your investment that is driving
that fascinating. There's lots to explore there of what's happening
in Israel. One of the frustrating things about being interested
in what's happening in the Orthodox Jewish community is that
it feels like the research ends with Hebrew and then

(52:39):
there's a new set of new body of research. There's
like almost no communication between Israeli Hebrew sociology and the
English language sociology.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
That's true. I think there is, uh, there's a Hahidi
research group. I think there there's a lot of you know,
Israeli scholars where But it's true. But the same thing,
you know in France. I'm just gonna, you know, mention that.
And recently I also discover the community of double lifers

(53:10):
in French but who moved to Israel. But they have
you know, influencer in French and they call it aposta.
I mean, this is a friend of mine who was
explaining to me and I was listening, and it was
so fascinating because he was talking like if he was alone.
I said, don't worry, you're not alone. There's and it's

(53:31):
not Faridim. You know, it's not your Orthodox Jews. It's
kind of I would say, just orthodox you know who
grew up in Paris and a lot of them Medalia,
but they speaking French, so it's kind of the language,
you know, fascinating so interesting.

Speaker 1 (53:46):
Yeah, yeah, that is fascinating. Well, let's let's wrap up
the interview by going to the final chapter where you
talk about something that is very relevant to me, and
I actually really appreciated how you tackled the subject of
the public fa of the person who leaves the fold
and becomes a voice, like what I would say to
the wider world, like the target audience becomes the wider world,

(54:10):
although I would say by now the audience has become
really blended on the Internet, both the wider world and
but one of the things you talk about is Malki
Squared Melissa Wiss right, and yeah, Malki what's her name Goldman,
two women both from the Hasidic community, from really the

(54:32):
ultra of the ultra, who are actresses who are now
the performing arts in the wider world, and they're navigating
that in particular, you want to talk to yus.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
Yeah, Actually, Malki Goldman now is in Israel from a
very big production, a film production that's going to be Yeah,
so it's going to come in a few months from now.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
But English language no, Hebrew, got it Hebrew.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
And what is what is interesting or what I tried
to do with this last chapter is also to impact
the stereotypes on you know, people living the community the same,
you know, and here there's a you know that's the scholar, right,
you know, thinking there's a paper to write about even
your work freed that you know, as you said, blending
and also have peeping people reaching out from inside and

(55:25):
from outside kind of creating this this mix. And what
was very interesting with the case of Luck is that
she's teaching also in the community. She still you know,
has an impact to you know, when she goes to
the garage and she teaches to girls. So that's you know,
her way to also constantly be connected with her family
of course, but trying to see what is happening. And

(55:47):
the other interesting part is that for me, the idea
of performing Hasidicness is not performing Jewishness. And this is
something that the understanding of Hasidic life. And that's why
you know, when you talk about cultural appropriation and patter
representation of minorities, it's very important. You know, it's not
because you're Jewish that you will understand or you will

(56:07):
act better than if you're non Jewish, maybe there is
this idea that, oh if the person, but I think
this is why is what they're trying to do. And
the steady case is really on malcim Minista because I
was very close to their work. But you have other
figures where they're really trying to reshape the industry, the Hollywood,
so they are consulting, they are really trying to diversify

(56:32):
the images. So there is also Lily Rosen, who's you know,
doing display. There's a lot of different actors that are
really trying. Peril Glock, who is also this filmmaker that
I talk about in the book, is trying to impact
and they construct the image. And this is also something
that you're doing also in your own work with all

(56:55):
your and it has been very interesting also to follow
the transformation also of your work. And you may have
a lot to say about that too. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
Well, I will say with regards to the last chapter
where you talk about being Exosiitic and continuing to represent
the world you come from. And like Malkie Goldman says,
she is Hasidic, she might have left it, but it's
been implanted in her that carrying that onwards. I felt
very heard, I felt very seen. I felt like it

(57:25):
represented my own experience. I really appreciated in the final
chapter that you talk about media representation in a way
that to me felt much needed. Critically, for instance, Felix
and Maria. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it correctly,
but I watched that it was very trophy. To me,

(57:47):
it was the same old and the media and the
critics fall over themselves. There was again a narrative of
an oppressed woman who is saved by a secular person
with a love story. It couldn't be more a fan
to see of the secular world. It couldn't be less
curious about the actual Hasidic community. And what I loved

(58:07):
about your chapters, you gave a voice to those who
are OTD, who are essentially being asked to act as
cultural approvers of these productions. We are asked, come in
here and look at it and tell us how amazing
it is, tell us how accurate we are. But really
we don't want to hear what you have to say.
And I heard that frustration in what they were both

(58:31):
talking about with Unorthodox and with other productions, where I
think in particular was Melissa was talking.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
About and Juliette.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
Yeah, you want to talk about what happened there.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
Yeah, So apparently there was not supposed to have a
new scene, and indeed the new scene was kept. So
it was supposed to be just in the back and
it was kept. And there was not only Melissa, but
there is also I know that Isaac Shuanfeld who is
it in the movie, and he accepted in case there
was no not going to be a nude. But it

(59:03):
seems that the filmmaker didn't. Didn't you know, that was
her last choice, That's what was her choice, and that
you know to to not listen to that. I mean
she I had a Braeve conversation with her. She disagreed,
but that's the fact. You know, if some people, you know,
felt that there was a kind of a form of orientalization, yes,

(59:24):
and maybe that it's very hard sometimes I was thinking
about how when did you see that? People don't necessarily
see that, you know, the same issue with with with gender,
They don't necessarily see that, Yes, there is discrimination because
certain things are structural. So if you're liberal women you
work in the industry, you may not think that you
will also be in a form of orientalization and this

(59:47):
is something that I try myself. I also got in
because of that, because of this fascination. So and we
all have bias the same. You know, if you're religious,
you also have your friantasy about the liberal world and
how terrible they no, no, the lack of thinking that
you have multiple realities existing at the same time. So

(01:00:08):
so that was, yeah, that was very unfortunate, very very unfortunate.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
I will say this, I am not against people who
are not from the community doing work on it. I
think your work, for instance, is really good. You know,
I don't have a problem with it. I think there
are like you took the time to understand your subjects.
You took the time to represent it in a way

(01:00:32):
that I think is enriching because you come from a
very complex you you bring your own background of course,
that is that is nuanced, that is that is feminist,
that understands different kinds of women's struggles, and I think
that really enhances your work. A lot of times when
we like when people do it from the inside, they
are lacking that, right. So I don't think it's a

(01:00:53):
problem if outsiders create content about a minority group, right,
but it has to be done in the right way.
When it comes to like pop culture media like the
show on Orthodox or these other typical trophy stories. There
are multiple levels for me of violations, and not only

(01:01:14):
the creators being so ambitious and like, let me tell
the story the world wants to hear and give it
to them and and propagate these these myths, but also
using OTD people yes to naatimized, yeah, to legitimize it exactly.
And what made me really sad was these two women
who rightfully have career goals in our ambitious we're dealing with,

(01:01:37):
for instance, Unorthodox, with feeling like they're between a rock
and a hard place. They need to for their work participate,
but at the same time their voice is not really
being heard.

Speaker 2 (01:01:48):
Yes, definitely, and I think it was. It was maybe
if there was potential desire to listen to, but I
don't think so, because you know, decided Also, I mean, yeah,
this this is very clear. That's that's that's the one
example of a few where it's very interesting that it's

(01:02:09):
always the woman, you know, with the woman that needs
to be to be saved. Well, I think you know,
it doesn't matter if you're men. I mean, I'm not
there are different, but I think that man also if
there is if you want to be saved by religion,
maybe for men as well, they want to be you
know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
It's like, why is the story the story always of
a woman getting saved and having sex with a man?

Speaker 6 (01:02:33):
I mean, it's interesting the story the story of Shulm Dean,
you know, you know, he he got you know, you know,
his book a great, great you know, claim and everything,
but they didn't make a movie.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
Maybe it's not don't you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
I know what you mean. Yeah, there there's the audience
shapes the media. You talk about that as well, about
how you're still in the market and you need to
create what the what cells?

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Yeah, maybe this is the American one. Maybe this is
the American one as well. That they think that, you know,
same thing with with music. They think that they need
to go to the one that's going to sell and
they sometimes we don't know, you know, the safe one. Yeah.
And there are some parallel with Muslim women or any

(01:03:23):
kind of women who are coming from you know, religious backgrounds,
where there was like, oh this feticization the woman's body,
the women's body.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
I still enjoy talking to you do you want to
say anything final words or I wanted to.

Speaker 7 (01:03:36):
Say that, I'm I'm very happy honor that it's it's
I always admire your work, so what you're doing, and
I'm very happy that you were that you read that
we were able to engage, you know, on my work.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
So yes, and and that's that's all I want to say.
You're doing amazing work and very inspiring.

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
So I appreciate it coming from you. I take that
compliment all the way because I see what went into
your book. I feel like we're sisters in a similar
in a similar passion project. So I really appreciate what
you're saying. Yeah, well, I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
Going to thank you, Freda.

Speaker 1 (01:04:17):
I'm going to link your book in the video description
so people can check it out. Anything else you wanted
me to link, maybe, no, do you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
Want maybe if you are interesting, maybe to some you know,
the trailer of maybe the film Castle in the Sky.
You know what, there's Melissa Malki. I don't know if
you saw this one if you want few and maybe
one music video if you're interesting, But otherwise.

Speaker 1 (01:04:40):
Okay, great, Thank you so much, Jessica. It was great
to talk to you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
Thank you so much Frida. And that's why.

Speaker 8 (01:04:54):
The head and the internal organs let's be removed before poetry.
From the very first moment you see menstrual blood, that's
when you will meet to use this.

Speaker 5 (01:05:06):
This is a ridiculus.

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
He said that we need to talk to you first.
How is your first week together?

Speaker 8 (01:05:16):
And the Hasidic community is a group that typically does
a crossover with us.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
Other folks say in New York it doesn't.

Speaker 4 (01:05:24):
Go any.

Speaker 6 (01:05:26):
How do people have sex?

Speaker 8 (01:05:29):
Look how wide it can get.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
It's not a joke. But then laugh and cry blood,
So it's a joke.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
I know nothing of sacrifice.

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
This is a and this is a go. This is Brooklood,
This is to Davis.

Speaker 8 (01:05:54):
This is God's creation. This is where they're chosen, already
chosen God.

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
He's a hotseater. The grandparents did it, don't you? Thank
you very much?

Speaker 8 (01:06:10):
Another she loved poetry. It's like building castles in the sky.