03-22-25 The One About Cults Part 4 -- Heaven's Gate

In part 4 of the series on cults The Bumpstocks take a look at Heaven's Gate,

Episode Transcript

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Listen to a lot.

Speaker 5 (03:28):
All right, good evening, everybody. This is front porch for
Insits and uh we're here on klr N radio dot
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(03:48):
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good time. Had By also, come on, pull up a
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Bumps dot Ken.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
And if you'll hear me messing with rappers and everything,
I'm making a cheesecake right now.

Speaker 5 (04:06):
And that is bumping stock Barbie in the background. She's
baking away and uh, we got a family event tomorrow,
so she's making some desserts. Anyways, we are in the
kitchen tonight, not on the porch, but that's spine.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Place to be in our house.

Speaker 5 (04:23):
It is a good place to be our house. Tonight's
episode again where we are doing. Uh, we're carrying on
with our cult shows and tonight we're looking at Heaven's Gate,
Colt Marshall A uh, yes, Marshall apple White.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
Was the Actually we should probably put Bonnie I think
at the forefront of that because she was the one
who originally started it, like, she was the leader there
for a little while before.

Speaker 5 (04:50):
She got sick. Yeah you had you got, uh Bonnie
Nettles and Marshall apple those were the founders of Heaven's Gate,
and by he was kind of the I guess the
brains are the heart behind it. I guess in the
beginning they found out pretty quick that Marshall was a

(05:10):
better speaker and more charismatic, so he kind of become
the headman.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Of the face said why he was just better at that.

Speaker 5 (05:19):
Well he's a guy, so but anyways, leaders for this
kind of thing anyway.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, we actually will touch on some where it was
a female lead, but that's just not tonight. She originally
did my home this religious sect. Basically what she was
not the the front was you could say, you know,
the kind of like with a band, like, Yeah, she
was a founder. She was kind of the one control

(05:49):
of it for a while, but Marshall was the one
out front. He was the face that you saw. He's
the face that everybody tuned in right now remembers because
you get that wild eyed older man you know on
the TV and everything, where his eyes like he doesn't
blink a lot.

Speaker 5 (06:05):
Yep, staring right into the cameras. Yeah, but.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, it was founded by Bonnie Nettles and Apple Ye
was kind of brought into it. Basically they were the
main leaders. But they they were they were both raised
Christians and everything, so they combined a lot of end
time prophecy type stuff, but they interspersed it with UFOs

(06:33):
and space travel, and that was like the next level
that we humans are supposed to strive for and to
get to and everything if we are pure. Basically, they
actually before they were called Heaven's Gate, they were doing
individual metamorphosis or total overcomers anonymous, which because that was

(06:57):
the entire thing was they were supposed to shed everything
thing that made them human, all relates, all societal time,
I mean everything they're so behind basically and become like
this one homogenous group, right. Yeah, Apple White and Nettles
they met in nineteen seventy two and they became convinced

(07:20):
that they were actually the two witnesses foretold in Revelation eleven.
The two witnesses there. They're at the wall, you know,
that are supposed to witness and testify and prophesy and everything.
They're at the whaling wall, I think essentially, and they
are going to be killed and then resurrected three days later,
just you know, kind of very similar to Jesus. This

(07:42):
is a prophecy foretold by like we all are, I think,
pretty familiar with in time prophecy. But they thought they
were the two witnesses that's hinted themselves to their followers,
astructed their followers. So they had to give up the

(08:04):
world and drop out of society completely. They had to
leave all family, all worldly possessions, all money, jobs, everything.
You had to drop literally everything about yourself and leave.

Speaker 5 (08:16):
Well, that's it's not far off of you know, religious
texts too. That's why it seemed so. I guess in
a way, it's mixed a little bit of truth, you
know a lot of times. So the leaving your forsaken
yourself and and all your worldly possessions and all that

(08:37):
isn't far off.

Speaker 2 (08:38):
From Jesus actual teaching.

Speaker 5 (08:40):
Yeah, from you know, your kind of the religion, your
basis of religion. And I think that apple Watt was
Marshall he was. Was he a Presbyterian? I believe it was.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
I want to say that both I think were. That's
how they got into like religion. Of course when they
were younger and everything with their families. Their families were
just Presbyterian, which is pretty normal. I mean I was
born and raised a Methodist. I was baptized and Methodists,
so that's what I just always was until now I

(09:13):
consider myself non denominational.

Speaker 5 (09:15):
Yeah, it says the son of a Presirian ministry.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, so I don't think that there's a ton that
we know about that her childhood.

Speaker 5 (09:30):
Uh Now, Bonnie Nettles was she had interests in theosophy
and biblical prophecy. But I don't know. I didn't find
anything about what if she had a religious upbringer or anything.
But she had a lot of I know, she's very spiritual.
She sought out those psychics and people that were what

(09:54):
had seances with the spiritual realms. So she was a
big believer in all that. Yeah, and I also know
that she we.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Absolutely believe in these this other world like that too,
but we understand and I think what it actually is.

Speaker 5 (10:09):
Yeah, And I think that's one of the things too,
about Bonnie when she was having all these seances, all
these communes with the dead, she actually claims that she
was being spoked to buy and I can't remember the monk,

(10:33):
the ancient monk was actually speaking to her and given
to these prophets season things. Okay, so she even had
a name for it, and I allow.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
Us I would say that un we're seeing evidence, at
least with her very early on, of almost illusions.

Speaker 5 (10:53):
I think if you go, if you go looking, then
things are going to find you. So I think this
month was probably a demonic in the that was twisting
her beliefs.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
Show like we are devout Christians and everything, and like
we absolutely do believe either this you know this other
realm and everything, but we believe that that's overwhelming demonic.
Well especially I just want to be upfront about.

Speaker 5 (11:17):
That with me. Everybody sings that that meme of the
crazy haired guy off ancient Aliens where he is going aliens,
but with me, it's demons. Okay. So that's that's kind
of given an idea how that's kind.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Of where we fall on all this. Just as a
heads up, if anybody.

Speaker 5 (11:37):
Knew, I think I'm a little worse off than you
are about it, though.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
But again, I'm just kind of giving a general rundown
here and then we're going to like talk more in
depth about this. But obviously, like with any any kind
of End Times religious cult basically that we have, whenever
the prediction does not come true, the leaders adjust. Yeah,
they're like, okay, well, the reason that it didn't happen

(12:02):
this way and we predicted that it would is because,
like you know, maybe we've you know, interpreted it.

Speaker 9 (12:08):
Here's what it really means, here's when it's really going
to happen.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
There were multiple predictions made by Nettles and apple White
that did not come true. So after that, after the
first prediction didn't come to fruition, the group ended up
settling in Texas. That's where they formed their little almost
commune type of deal.

Speaker 5 (12:31):
Yeah. Well, we'll go back to even before that later
about their buildings of the cult, But this is where
they finally settled down and really start to work.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
Well, yeah, it started in Texas. They had very very
little contact with the outside world. Like these people. Again,
they were told to leave their families, their friends, their
entire past life. They were told to leave it behind.
It was no longer relevant at all. So they had
very little contact of the outside world until about nineteen

(13:02):
ninety four when they began to prepare for their eventual
movement to a quote higher level of existence. So that's
when they made the move to California, California. They settled
in San Diego in nineteen ninety six, and see first
cult in history that ever used the Internet, that ever
utilized the web to like put out basically their mission

(13:26):
statement in a way, what they believed in. They were
using it to recruit new followers. That's actually where the
name Heaven's Gate originated, too, was when they needed a
name for their website. That's when they named themselves Heaven's Gate.

Speaker 5 (13:43):
But yeah, Heaven's Gate work's a lot easier on Search
Engine than whatever that that crazy long ass name they
had before.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
Yeah, Heaven's Gate that they and these were again they
were actually recruiting very intelligent people. These were IT specialists, Yeah,
I specialists, software developers, I mean all this kind of stuff.

Speaker 9 (14:06):
These and we've said.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
This on the other three episodes in this series, it
is extraordinarily easy.

Speaker 9 (14:15):
Everybody has their chairs.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
As I've been saying to the past episodes, everybody has
something they're searching for. Everybody has something they're seeking. So
these people provided that to them. And again, these were
highly educated people at the time. So we always look
back on these things and we think that could never
happen to me. I could never be one of them.
I can never fall for this. But you absolutely could

(14:42):
given the right prompts, given the right promises and everything.
Every single one of us is susceptible to things like this.

Speaker 5 (14:51):
Yep, I think so. To mention one the other day,
I was talking last night that if Sady would have
started to call it I, that's the one. I said.
I don't remember it because we were sitting there laughing
about it, and I thought, yeah, if he's the one
that says this is my cult, I'm in buddy, it's gotten.
I'll think of that.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
It was probably something.

Speaker 5 (15:13):
Yeah, that was something funny, but I can't recall it.
I wish now I could have. I should have made
a note of it, but I can't recall it. But yeah,
everybody has their chairs a very niche example because of
this movie that she's obsessed with, but basically everyone's searching
for something. Every every human being has a need and

(15:35):
a need to be filled in a basically a hole
in their soul that they're trying to fill up. And
that's what these cult leaders.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Everybody is seeking. They're seeking a sense of belonging, They're
seeking community. I mean, this is not something that any
of us listening, or even us me and Daniels talking
about right now, we're not immune to this, yep.

Speaker 5 (15:59):
And that's why these cult leaders they prey upon is
that human need.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
Now, this is.

Speaker 9 (16:07):
Actually a point we were talking about before the show too.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
I think Apple White here is very different than the
cult leaders we have talked about before because those cult leaders,
like we do absolutely still see the narcissistic personality disorder
coming into play. A lot of those traits are shown
in Apple White and in Bondie Nettles, Like, we absolutely
see this. But I think that these are actually the

(16:36):
cult leaders who truly believed in their own story. Basically,
you see the people like Jim Jones, you know, Charlie Manson,
the other people we've talked about before, it's just a
means of control, right, They're just saying these things. They
I don't think they necessarily believe it themselves at all.

(16:57):
But I truly think that Apple White hundred percent believed
everything that he was preaching.

Speaker 5 (17:03):
Well, one of the things we point to about the
leaders not actually believing what is our by what there's
setting is because when the time comes to right, they
always seem to force they don't actually go out the
same way that their followers do.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
We look at Jim Jones with the what was it
was sinide in the in the drinks and the kool
aid or he watched these hundreds and hundreds of people
and children drinking this and sind is a brutal way
to go. It is extremely painful. So what did he do?

(17:42):
He had one of his other like right hand men
just shoot him in the head. Yeah, well that's how
he went out. He did not, He didn't go out
the same way that he instructed his followers.

Speaker 5 (17:55):
And at that time and of course later though, I mean,
but like with out for White here Oll Marshall. Oh,
by the way, Marshall and Bonnie they changed their names
to Doe and t so dough boy, he actually does

(18:15):
go out the same way that his followers do, which.

Speaker 9 (18:18):
Is why I think that he actually didn't believe what
he was telling them.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
He was convinced.

Speaker 5 (18:24):
Well, there's reports that the way he and Bonnie had
met was I know Bonnie was a married nurse and
that she that's how they met. Was they met at
a psychiatric hospital. Now some people claim that Marshall was

(18:47):
a patient there at the psychiatric hospital, but Marshall said no,
that he was just dizsiting a friend. Now there's no
way to really prove that.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
Because of the frame of reference, any kind of backs
one way or the other.

Speaker 5 (19:02):
Yeah, there's no one actually know who the friend was.
He's supposedly meeting there, but.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
It was a friend at all.

Speaker 5 (19:10):
Right, So, like I said, I can see him thinking
that he was actually in a psychiatric hospital. How that
could be shown as a weakness or something, and he won't.
But either way, she was working in the psychiatric hospital
where they met. And can I go into how the

(19:30):
how they met and kind of that history there. It's
kind of long winded, but I can and build it up.
So Bonnie was married and had children, she was a nurse,
I said. We don't know about her religious background, but
we know she was really into mysticism and the kind

(19:54):
of well I guess assuming too. The cults and some
the umbrella of a cult are the cult to act
would be seances and all that and reaching into the
other side and all that kind of stuff. Well, she
was talking, like I said, she met this monk supposedly,

(20:15):
and he had told her, was giving her visions or
or and tell her to these things that was going
to come to pass, and was kind of leading her
life basically, And it was causing big stress with the
with her husband because her husband thought it was foolishness
and that she was getting way too involved in this

(20:38):
kind of stuff. So there's already some ordered. Terry, that's
only I know she had more. That's only name I know.
I don't know how many were.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
I think she did have children. Terry is the only
child's name of hers that we know from that first marriage.

Speaker 5 (20:52):
I think some I think I read somewhere there was
four kids, but I'm not sure. Uh. And the reason
I say there was four is because when they do
wind up getting divorced, Bonnie and her husband, the oldest
son was in his twenties, so he wasn't really affected,
but the husband got the other three kids, and Terry
being one of them. Yeah, but they said, now, Terry,

(21:16):
the daughter and Bonnie were very very close up to
this point, and so there's a history there of them
being very close. They shared a lot of the same interests,
which was occult stuff, after life things, theologies, and UFOs.
Now this was what the sixties and seventies this point,

(21:40):
so UFOs unidentified flying objects, space aliens UFOs thus pretty
popular back then. For sure kind of had the Yeah,
they met in.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
Nineteen seventy two, so that was kind of the height
of all of this.

Speaker 5 (21:57):
Yeah, so they were they I already had this history
in this interest together. So but anyways, back to Bonnie.
She's working as a nurse. She has this vision and
this poem reader or crystal ball reader, I don't know
which one it us tells her that her future that

(22:18):
she's going to meet a new man, there'd been a
new man in her life, and that he would be tall, light,
light complected, with light hair.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
And you remember what apple would look like, I mean.

Speaker 5 (22:35):
And so she has this in her mind already, her
home life in trouble with her husband. Her guru and
life leader that she has in her head is already
telling her that has visions of that she's going to
do great things. This person who reads her future says,

(22:57):
You're going to meet a new man. So if things
are kind of stacking up here, well, sure enough, Apple
White shows up at this mental hospital where she's working,
and he is tall, white haired, and pale complexed.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah, he very much looked exactly like.

Speaker 5 (23:20):
Ped Oh he fit to Bill perfect.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
So so you can imagine for somebody like Bonnie who's
already into this kind of thing, that already buys into
it completely finally meeting this person.

Speaker 5 (23:32):
Well, and what compounds it is that Apple White actually
walks into her life just days, like a few weeks
after this prediction of a new man's coming into your life.
So it's still fresh on her mind too. That hadn't
enough time, hadn't passed that she started doubting it. It
was almost in terminologies like that, it's almost immediate. So

(23:55):
so here she is, she's got this already in her mind,
and so she approaches him. They get to talking a
little bit, and they find out that he has a
big interest in UFOs and things of that nature too,
So they strike a little bit of something to keep
them talking, I guess, but it's not it's not really

(24:16):
hitting off. There's not a real physical connection or anything.
But she believes soheartedly that this is the man foretold
to be hers, and so as as one does, they
start looking for connections any where they can. She finds
things out that they share the same uh stars and

(24:40):
their astrology, uh whatever you call that astrology, that they
share the same star, and that their stars are aligned
at this certain time and there, and that's just proof
to her that their soulmates and that the that what
that he is is the one. Yeah, exactly. So for Bonnie,

(25:06):
that's it, that's it. This is the dude. Marshal's it.
She's found her tall, pale, blonde hero or white haired hero,
I guess, light skinned, light haired, So that's what starts
it off, and it becomes an infatuation with one another. Now,
for Marshall, there was evidence in hearsay and people claiming

(25:31):
that he was openly homosexual, that he had got in
trouble with when he was a music teacher and instructor,
that he had got in trouble at one of his
colleges by having an affair with one of the male
undergrats or students or what they call. So there was
a big thing about that, a big scandal. So basically

(25:57):
them not having a physical connection makes sense. Yeah, if
he was openly homosexual, like some people are even the
closeted homosexual.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
And we'll get into kind of why this was happening
later on. But he and like when he and Bonnie
like hooked up about together and they started their own
little commune and everything.

Speaker 9 (26:17):
They were not even like living in the same building.

Speaker 5 (26:21):
Right, Yeah. This this is one of the interesting things
is that there's yes, they were male and female leaders,
but they were not a couple in the sense that
you would think like most of the other cult leader
couples are. There was no physical contact. They were not
married together more fashion No, it wasn't, which is also

(26:41):
unique to cult leaders.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
This was just cults I think in general, because I mean,
at least for the leaders themselves, there's always an element
of sex at least with their followers. But again we're
going to touch on some that were female led and everything,
but they were actually have a sexual relationship for their
like bodyguards men and everything too. It was also another

(27:05):
way to kind of keep them in control, you know,
m But we didn't see that at all with this one.

Speaker 5 (27:13):
So they start their discussion out. She tells him all
about this monk and her her spirit leaders and kind
of stuff. And the UFOs as far as being a
being aliens, and I don't again, I don't know how

(27:36):
much of it that Marshall already believed, but he's buying
into it. I mean, they start there. This is where
they start their theory and their basis for Heaven's Gate,
and they start the whole cult here together is their
shared interest in uh space alien I guess really. And

(27:59):
of course, of course the religious background coming in from
I think.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
The religious aspect of it was just kind of the gateway,
you know, to get people to listen to them.

Speaker 5 (28:13):
At first, the religious basis of this, the ingredient, since
you're baking of the religion, comes from Apple White. And
so they start tying in. They start tying in his
Presbyterian background because like again, his dad was a pastor,
so he's heard it day in and day out, so

(28:34):
he's very familiar with it. And then his views mixing
with hers creates just enough truth in it to make
it plausible to some folks. And so they had a
pretty good, uh, pretty good system going or a good
basis for a cult already built. And they moved to

(28:57):
first up into Oregon, up in that area when they
start really recruiting up there that actually this is where
the flyers come in there say.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
I think it was what I say, uh, nineteen ninety four,
I think, or so when they moved I can't remember
when they moved to Texas. Nineteen ninety four was kind
of the beginning to they finally ended up in California,
and San Diego was where they finally ended up. That

(29:28):
they were in Texas at one point, you said.

Speaker 5 (29:32):
Yeah, in the seventies they went to Oregon when they
started their recruitment to and what was the name of
it before it was Heaven's Gate.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
They had a couple they called themselves a couple of things.
It was the human individual.

Speaker 5 (29:44):
Minimum, the human individual, metamorpho.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
For total over anonymous.

Speaker 5 (29:52):
Total overcomers anonymals. They also had TEL A T E
L A H. The elevated level above human that was there.
That was basically where they were, what they were shopping,
what they were selling that level exactly. So in the
seventies when they started up in organ recruiting heavily, they

(30:12):
had these flyers made up. And the flyers are pretty famous.
If you look at Heaven's Gate when the first thing
popped up, their flyers and the thing that in the
way they would their click bait, if you will, was
right across the top UFO and it would kind of
catch your attention and you started back then at that.

Speaker 9 (30:35):
Time that was a big deal in popular culture.

Speaker 5 (30:38):
And in their first paragraph they was talking about come
out and meet two people being them that was from
a level above humanity, and that they can teach you
how to get there yourself. So basically it was almost
like a self help top deal mixt in, uh, self improvement,

(31:01):
help self improvement. You're seeking something, come see us, hot
to us. We can help you find the way. So
again a basic recipe for starting to call and and
they were nailing at the right place at the.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
Right time because again we're seeing all this like in
the seventies.

Speaker 5 (31:18):
And yeah, that's another thing too, whole.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
Age of aquari people are trying to expand their consciousness.

Speaker 5 (31:25):
Well you hadn't You hadn't mentioned that they had a
lot of people that were computers savvy, and that was
I mean, the computers was just really picking up in
the forefront. And uh, it was also the age of
star Trek was popular too, and a lot of their
followers were trekkies and.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
So prominent one at least was a stay through just
about the.

Speaker 5 (31:52):
N One of the victims who actually died was a
brother to one of the actresses that was Star Trek.
I'll find it. I can't which one was, but anyways,
so I mean they huh, it's it's Star Trek, star
red Star Trek. Just kidding Star Trek. Anyways, So basically

(32:22):
I think this actress, she played Princess Leah in the
Star Trek movies. It was what you're hurting my head? Well?
Which one?

Speaker 2 (32:39):
So?

Speaker 5 (32:39):
Okay, Star Trek was Captain Kirk, right, Yeah, that's the
one who started on Now is he the one that
had the giant Is he the one that had the
big foot, that that flew the ship with him? No?
That was Star Wars right now. Uh, I'll stop. Look,

(33:01):
I love Star Trek and I love Star Wars. I'm
just pulling all his legs. I love those movies. And
side note, Star Trek, Captain Kirk is the Captain. He's
my favorite and my and a lot of people give
me boo birds on this, but my favorite Star Trek
movie is the first one, the motion picture with Viger.

(33:25):
And to me that I said, that's still my favorite
one even you know, the one with con and all that,
that's The Wrath of Khan is a great movie, but
my first, my favorite one is still the motion picture.

Speaker 2 (33:41):
I have to add butter to this. Melted Butter going
for a second.

Speaker 5 (33:45):
But anyways, that's something. Yeah, I just pulled out his leg.
I know the difference. But I do say track because
I am very much the radinet.

Speaker 2 (33:52):
So I wish we could do the video and everything,
because when he was saying all that, y'all should have
seen the look he was giving me in that big
ol'd grin on his face.

Speaker 5 (34:02):
But like I said, nineteen seventies into the into the
eighties ultimately ends in what ninety seven? So I mean this,
this went along for well over twenty years this and
it just so.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Happens to work out. We actually left this episode up
to listeners and everything.

Speaker 9 (34:22):
We did a poll on it.

Speaker 2 (34:24):
But we actually are coming up on the anniversary of
that mass suicide.

Speaker 5 (34:28):
The twenty seventh right March twenty seven, nineteen ninety seven,
March twenty six, March seven, March twenty six, nineteen ninety seven, So.

Speaker 2 (34:36):
We're coming up on that anniversary, which I mean, that's
kind of cool. We did wago last time because it
was the anniversary when that siege started. So I kind
of like that it just kind of worked out this
way because yeah, we're coming up on it.

Speaker 5 (34:54):
The uh. But like I said, the mits perfect, the
computer guys or computer people and Star Trek Star Trek fans.
I mean, there was a lot of perfect conditions and
people seeking out. You know, we had just got back

(35:18):
from the Moon, you know, in sixty nine, so I
mean space the final frontier. It was perfect for them
to build this, to build this cult off the basis
of aliens basically. And another thing I thought was interested
in mixing in the religious aspect with the aliens is

(35:41):
they actually taught that Mary the Mother of Jesus, the
way the immaculate Conception was actually she was lifted up
into the spaceship and she was impregnated on the space
it by the same aliens that are going to come

(36:02):
back and save us. Uh, So that Jesus would actually
be an air of those aliens up there. So they
had kind of tied that into and a lot of
the followers actually thought that made more sense than her
being the immaculate conception part from just being from God

(36:23):
to them, it made it more. I guess they figure
it's easier to understand if there was an actual copulation
taking place between her and aliens. So but I thought
that was interesting too, some of the some of the
ways they twisted the the.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
I always said, like for somebody who is well versed
on the Bible or something like that, and you're like, no, so,
I mean, we wouldn't have fallen into that particular cult.
I don't think. No, just because you know, we understand
the Bible, we understand the immaculate conception. We actually even
different than athletes on this because they think the immaculate

(37:02):
conception was Mary, that she was immaculately conceived and therefore
when she got pregnant with Jesus it was also naturally.

Speaker 5 (37:10):
Well, it's a very small small sect. I don't think that's.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, we're not Catholic, so.

Speaker 5 (37:18):
I'm but even that little belief is a very very
small most the Catholic Church itself, they decried that. They mean,
they denounced that as well. They they don't accept that
because that barbarous in the Catholic Church.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Are saying no, Mary was.

Speaker 5 (37:34):
Still human, No, no, no, no, what they're saying, is that
Mary's emmaculate conception wasn't like Jesus that it was her
parents were beyond birth of years. It's kind of like
Abraham and them that she was a well, what the
word is a miracle basically because they were past prime,

(37:56):
they was no longer able to have children and then
she comes along. So it was a work, but it
wasn't a virgin top conception birth. There is a very
small writing that I read one time, and others have
read it too, where that was being pushed. But the church,
the Catholic Church has come out and they said, no,
that's we don't believe that. We don't agree with you.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
As early as last week, I had Catholics telling me
that Mary was completely sindless and it was she was.

Speaker 5 (38:24):
Yeah, that's different than the virgin birth emaculate conception. What
there's their their take on her being sinless and was
born without sin and all that kind of stuff. That's
that's a whole difference. Now, but that's a religious because
we're not going to get into that. Yeah. But uh,

(38:46):
these guys dough and t Marshall and Bonnie here they was,
I mean, they take care of s and blasphem me
to a whole new level where there and most of
these do.

Speaker 2 (38:57):
Yeah, they took elements of Christianity and everything, but it's
so very drastically warped from anything biblical that like it's
a completely different thing in my mind now. Oh yeah,
like it's nowhere near true.

Speaker 5 (39:14):
Oh no, They, like I said, they use just enough
of it to make it plausible and then they twist it,
you know, and and like you said, the devils and
the demons they can squote crypture better most Christians.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Yep.

Speaker 5 (39:32):
It's not anything to do with knowing scripture. It's what
you do with it exactly.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
And I think we mentioned it in earlier episodes and
everything that we actually do think that a lot of
these culture demandically influenced.

Speaker 5 (39:45):
Oh I think. I think ninety nine percent of them are, absolutely,
because a lot of them.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
Are so drastically perverting the Word of God. That's that's
to me, that's all it can be.

Speaker 5 (39:57):
Yeah, I agree, And you know, like I said, they
they prey upon these people and their human nature of
searching for something. Like I said earlier, people have a
hole in their soul and they find they latch onto
that and then they start packing it full of their

(40:20):
crap and their people are so uh. Human beings were
made created to worship and to follow God is a
god shake And when and when people are searching for

(40:42):
God but they don't call him by name, you have
these nefarious people that are offering up things that seem
a lot easier, you know, and hey, you just so
happened to feel this. Whatever your hole is, we can
feel it with this and they'll sitting in shape it
and move.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
It dirty, y'all.

Speaker 5 (41:03):
But it's not, I promise, and uh. And that's what
they do, is they find exactly what they think that,
they find out what you feel like you're missing, and
then that's what they start, they start trying to give you.

Speaker 9 (41:19):
There again, like we've talked about before, the psychology of these.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
Leaders, they are very very very good at honing in
on a weakness, like there's something about them that it
seems almost psychic in a way, like that they know exactly, Okay,
well this person is going to differ from that one.
So here's how I reach this person. But here's how
I'm going to reach that person and still tie it

(41:43):
into their own propaganda, basically, still tie into their own
core belief. I mean, it's actually amazing how how the
cult leaders function this way.

Speaker 5 (41:57):
Well, I think that's why most of the most successful
cults are based on religion, whatever that religion may be,
usually Christianity, but that's when they work, is because they
have that base, you know, they have that universal appeal, yeah, appeal.

(42:18):
But anyways, back to Bonnie and Daggham Marshall. Bonnie winds
up getting a divorce from her husband after she meets
Marshall and decides that their stars are aligned. And then
that that's we mentioned that earlier. They go to Oregon,
that's when they really Now years have passed before they

(42:40):
make it to Oregon, and they have built this whole.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
Yeah they and this did not all come to fruition until.

Speaker 5 (42:49):
And years well seven. Yeah, so they build this whole
belief system on top of it. And I think that
you have Bonnie at this point weaving this web and
creating the story, and you have Marshall.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
Marshall was actually the first follower, and.

Speaker 5 (43:15):
You have Marshall, who I believe was had the mental instability.
That's why they met in the psychiatric board. So I
think that Marshall was interjecting his thoughts process too into
it to build this belief system. But yeah, like Lord
just said, I think Marshall would actually technically be the

(43:38):
first follower, would be the first victim, if you will,
of this cult.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
Bonnie started this.

Speaker 5 (43:45):
Yeah, she said, I believe we both believe that Bonnie
is the mastermind, and Bonnie is the one who created
this cult at the base in the beginning.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
Yeah, she her beliefs, her poor beliefs with you have,
with the mysticism and everything formed the basis of everything
that Heaven's Gate stood for and believed them. So yeah,
she was the original leader. She just kind of took
him in as I guess, like a protege. Almost.

Speaker 5 (44:13):
Well, she took him in because you remember, the monk
had told her that one was coming, her equal was coming,
and then the psychic that read her future told her,
you know, describe him, and then she found him at
that Sacheratric thing and then sure enough, if you look

(44:34):
hard enough, you eventually gonna find something. Well, sure enough,
their stars were aligned or whatever, and keeping mildly these.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
Kind of psychics and everything, when they tell you stuff
like that, they're going off themost generic description of a
person they can possibly.

Speaker 5 (44:48):
Get Yeah, because she said light skin would would be
anything any kind of white guy. Yeah, and then lot
hair could have been white hair, blonde hair, lot brown,
anything other than black. It leads a lot open to interpretation.
And they do that on purpose because that way, and
you get too specific, then they can be proven wrong easier.

(45:11):
So but yeah, she didn't just look onto him. I
mean she kind of had a a ladle to look
for and he actually feel this stuff.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, and then you might not even be the first
person she encountered like that, but the first person she
encountered that looked like that that she knew she could
control in a way, possibly if he was a patient
in that psychiatric hospital and she was a nurse there.
I mean that right there, that's the position of authority,
you know, the being able to exert their will and

(45:45):
you know, their mentality over another person. That's that narcissistic
personality that we always talk about.

Speaker 5 (45:50):
In leaders Yeah, and it I mean that possibly. I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
I said, we have not. This is speculation on our part.
This is us just doing what we normally do and
discussing something while I'm baking.

Speaker 5 (46:03):
I think that description of him that was planted in
her mind. It's what led her to him, because if
they were, I don't here's and here's why it aligned
well enough that it worked out. But if she had
got the description of a dark haired, bearded man or

(46:24):
something that's who sought out, it wouldn't have been Applie
had been somebody.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
On alert, Like if she saw somebody that looked like that,
she would have gone up and like in town, like
initiated a conversation with them, because that's what she had
in her mind. That's the end.

Speaker 5 (46:42):
And remember that image was implanted. Its shortly before or
she actually saw. So it's not like a long time.
I've seen a few a few days and I've seen
a couple of weeks written so but either way, pretty
short time. She so it was fresh mind. She was
looking actively looking, saw him, and boom, there he was.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
So I say, I mean, if you, like you said,
the stars kind of aligned on this one.

Speaker 5 (47:08):
I think that you talk about the narcissistic thing is
that apple White. I don't know how narcissistic he was.
It kind of starts showing up more as as he
got older, and you see it, but I don't know
his tendencies before as a younger man, but I know
that he was a music teacher and very creative and
all that, and uh, he.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
Originally wanted, I think, to be a preacher like his father,
but because of his musical talent, they said that that's
what led him into a teaching position, which very very
similar because a preacher of me is basically a teacher,
just have a highly specialized yeah, you know, area of expertise. Basically.

Speaker 5 (47:50):
Yeah, he by all accounts was a master musician. And yeah,
and I'm thinking, I don't have no proof of it,
but I'm assuming very intelligent. Yeah, I mean, because like
I said, he was was a professor, and he taught

(48:13):
music too at some college. Actually, in nineteen sixty one
and sixty two, he was a music instructor at the
University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa for two years. Haha. I
think he went on and taught it a couple of
other universities. And that's actually were not at Alabama, but

(48:41):
not at Alabama, but the other school. It's where he
got into the problem with the student or the grad
student and everything and had to leave, basically told to
leave where he was going to get fired and all
this stuff. So that's really when he started going downhill. Yeah,
that's when he was about to go downhill, is about
to turn come out that he had alleged homosexual relationships

(49:06):
with that student and all that kind of stuff. And
that's right before he winds up Air quotes visiting a
friend in the Sacriact hospital.

Speaker 9 (49:15):
Yeah, and we have no way of.

Speaker 2 (49:18):
Knowing this for sure, but we.

Speaker 9 (49:20):
Assume that he wasn't visiting anybody.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
He was just a patient there. That's our personal assumption.
Just and everybody who I think has seen the videos
and everything of him, because they're everywhere. Now, yeah, you've
all seen this guy like, yeah, he calms off as
just bonkers.

Speaker 5 (49:42):
Yeah, it's you can see that. You know. They're talking
about having crazy eyes. That's saying, well, there you go,
he's got them.

Speaker 10 (49:52):
I've always said, like, at least when it comes to women,
because that's always the joke that goes around with the
crazy eyes. If you can see all of the their
eyes like run yeah, and you can.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
See all of this man's eyes in the with you, Oh,
absolutely straight up crazy eyes.

Speaker 5 (50:10):
Very much. So let's see what else.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
Obviously professional diagnoses.

Speaker 5 (50:17):
But now let's see this is all throughout the seventies,
just when they're doing this and into the eighties, UH,
they're slowly growing their UH followers. The rules are beginning
to take shape of what they have to do and
what they can't do. Now we mentioned earlier that they

(50:38):
have to give away all the worldly possessions, so anytime
you to well, first off, to become a member, you
had to take a detox to get to clean your
soul and your spirit and your body. And the detox
was a drink that had lemonade. Think it was red

(51:01):
peppers and yeah, it was. Yeah, it was water based
with limb. That's what it was. It was lemon water,
cayenne peppers, and a maple syrup mixed in. Yeah. And
now this it wasn't a fast. It was just a

(51:21):
cleans that they had to do. That that's that's only
that's the only thing they could drink was.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
That during though usually you're not allowed to eat or
drink anything else either, like you're not allowed to have
like actual food.

Speaker 5 (51:34):
This cleans wasn't lightly. This is the only thing that
was allowed to drink. This cleans. They did have a
fasting day once a month, but this was the only
thing they were allowed to drink because the cleans took
three months to cleanse your spirit, so there's no way
you could do just that fasting without food for three months.

(51:57):
And basically it was a test to see who is
willing to who basically who they could control, who was
willing to do what they want them to do to
go through with it. Yeah, exactly, it was basically test
that that d or Dough and t had come up
with to figure out who they could manipulate, who they
knew they could really really in.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
Yes, because if you were serious enough to go through
months of that and everything. I've heard about that particular
mix for a friens, Like I have known girls who
have like started laughing and pooped themselves because like it's
incontrollable at this point. It actually is like flushing your entire.

Speaker 5 (52:38):
System OUTA Yeah, they say it's worse than eating taco bell,
eating taco bell and drinking coffee at the same time.
You know, not a good not a good mix.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
So yeah, I mean, if you're willing to go through
all of that, you're there's not much else you're probably
gonna say no to.

Speaker 5 (52:53):
Yeah. Uh, well, and then the next thing they had
to do is get rid of worldly possessions. So once you.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
Made their and that's at least standard.

Speaker 5 (53:05):
Once you made their cleansing and you made it into
the to the cult, you had to give the cult
everything you had. You had to sell all all your possessions.
You had to turn away off. Uh yeah, everything that
was worldly you had to get rid of and your

(53:27):
uh you had, everything that was worldly you had to
get rid of and donate the proceeds to the cult
to help focus the what would you call it the
mission the family, you know, So that was that was
one of the first things that you had to do. Well,

(53:49):
one of the rules that again, like the leaders of
this cult were different than a lot of the cults,
and they really stood out because number one, they was
man and female that was leading the co leaders. You
don't see that a lot.

Speaker 2 (54:06):
And then the female the helm basically.

Speaker 5 (54:10):
And then but they weren't a couple. They were separated.
They were the two witnesses at the wall. So if
there wasn't a copulation of the two of them, they
were two individuals that led as one head of this cult.
And but they lived separate lives one well, not lives
that they just basically slept in different rooms. They had

(54:32):
his room and her room type by that.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
Was Another part of it is the the removal of
the followers individuality. Any relationship you had with anybody, it
didn't matter if you came into this group and everything.
As they married couple, you were no longer married to them.

Speaker 5 (54:49):
Yeah. One of the we watched the documentary earlier and
one of the main characters in this documentary had come
in with his girlfriend and he calls her even to
day or when the documentaries filmed a few years ago,
the love of his life. And they had a shared
uh infatuation and love for UFOs and space travel and

(55:12):
all that kind of stuff. And then when they saw
that flyer about the UFO, that's what they called attention.
That's how they got into them. But he said when
they arrived as a couple, that's one of the things
that was explained to them is that you can't have
that distraction for your spirit and your soul. So there

(55:34):
was no more couples. You couldn't have physical relationship at all.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
You were supposed to suppress that sexual desire that I
mean it was especially when you're younger like that.

Speaker 5 (55:44):
Everybody it was male and female. Everything was to be celibate. Yeah,
while in this cult they.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
Even had one. Uh, one of the survivors was talking
about another man or whatever they called it. Uh, it
wasn't sin that they called it. What wasn't slippage they
called it.

Speaker 9 (56:07):
So they if they slipped up basically was their version
of sin.

Speaker 5 (56:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
This this guy admitted that he had a nocturnal emission, which.

Speaker 5 (56:19):
Well, let's build to that first. So they any kind
of any kind of slippage was what it including. Well,
of course after they broke up with everybody, they were
people still having sets. Well they kind of started cracking
down that and so sets went away completely. Even masturbation
male male n female. That was slippage therefore sinful, So

(56:43):
that had to go away.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
That sexual desire.

Speaker 5 (56:46):
And one of the guys talked about, well, you can't
control your mind, so you would have these fantasies and
these thoughts. Well, that was slippage, so that was a sin.
So then the rule was made to well you can't
do that anymore. You can't even have those thoughts anymore.
And this is where the guy finally talks about having

(57:07):
to be nocturnal emission, which I mean, as.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
We know, is basically to put a creerly a wet
dream and look, I'm sorry, like to me that one,
dreams are completely subconscious. You have no control over what
you dream of. So I mean, this was completely outside
of this guy's control. He couldn't stop it, he didn't
start it, nothing, It was just something that happened. But

(57:31):
this is when, this is when it starts getting a
little more extreme because now when you know, he admits
and he owns up to his slippage, which is a
very weird term to now use in the context of
a wet dream. But now we're going to see them

(57:52):
start talking about castration because it was necessary to get
rid of that sexual urge, the desire and everything, which
again completely normal for every single human being on earth,
Like a sexual desire is an instinct. So they're now
talking about getting rid of this entire instinct itself.

Speaker 5 (58:17):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
So they start, they start leading up to and talking
about castrations and everything until they finally decide to do it.

Speaker 5 (58:28):
Well, they and the way they talk, and most guys
immediately think, well that's it. I'm out, There's no way
I'm going to do that.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
That's like you Rick, like our other guy, listeners and
everything everybody here is like, yep.

Speaker 9 (58:40):
I'm out done.

Speaker 5 (58:41):
That's kind that's kind of the ending point for me,
that that's the step too far, because this was.

Speaker 2 (58:47):
Not like chemical castration they were talking about.

Speaker 5 (58:49):
It was not drugs, No, it was physical.

Speaker 9 (58:52):
Yeah, they were actually going to like cut things.

Speaker 5 (58:55):
And the reason that they were able to talk a
lot of them into it was tied into biblical scripture.
They said. The part of the scripture talks about if
your if your right eye offends, you cut it out
from cut it from your body, and your same thing
with your hand. It's better to cut your hand off
than lose your whole body into the fires of hell,
you know. Exactly, So they was, they was, and I

(59:18):
know I'm just I'm paraphrasing all that. I apologize. I
should have looked it up and got the right scriptures.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
But either way, exactly talking about So that's that's the
scripture they were using to justify and pervert this butcher
of the mel anatomy here, I mean, and that's exactly
what it was. Because the first one they did this
was absolutely horrific.

Speaker 5 (59:39):
Yeah, they had it was just okay, first off, this
this was already after Bonnie passed.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
Away, Oh we need to talk about that.

Speaker 5 (59:47):
Well, well, but we're in the midst of this and
that this is when they had their house in tech On, California.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
I think I think they were already in California when they.

Speaker 5 (59:55):
Were doing that, Yeah, because this was towards the end.
And so they had this house that everybody kind of
lived in, and they had houses that surrounded it, all
on the same kind of street in this area, very
very close where all the followers lived and.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Not a compound, but they basically I wasn't.

Speaker 5 (01:00:13):
A compound, but they were all very within walking very
very close distance to each other. If needed, they could
walk to one another. But they all they had cars
and stuff. But anyways, they don't. One of their followers
was a nurse, and the nurse decides to do it
like they're on the kitchen table. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
Now, they actually had one guy. He's a survivor. He's
in the at least the People Magazine Investigates documentary on this.

Speaker 5 (01:00:39):
Yeah, and that's it. People Magazine Investigates is the name
of the show.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
Yeah, and they actually have an entire like sub sect
of that show that's just for colts.

Speaker 5 (01:00:50):
Yeah, if you if you search it up, it's People magazines.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
People Magazine, investigate.

Speaker 5 (01:00:56):
People Magazine and investigates and then cults.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
If anybody has a Discovery plus app or whatever it's,
it's on there and I highly recommend.

Speaker 5 (01:01:05):
Yeah, and then you can find it. It's I think
it's the season two, say episode three or something, but
it's this is the it actually talks about the Heaven's
Gate when it's easy to find. And this is one
of the guys that is highly I mean, he's prominent
in this documentary.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Yeah, and he's the one I think that actually even
to this day, still believes that they were who they
said they were. But he actually volunteered to be the
first person to be castrated. Now he's the one they
drew names or something.

Speaker 5 (01:01:38):
No, he's the one that was professing openly that he
was slipping a lot with masturbation, that he still want
He was a young man, so he was still sneaking
not sneaking out because he lived in his own house,
but he was still going out to the bars and
meeting women and stuff like that. But he wasn't following through.

(01:02:00):
He was following the rules of the cult, but he
was still masturbating.

Speaker 9 (01:02:02):
That he was not having a sexual relationship with anybody.

Speaker 5 (01:02:05):
But he was fantasizing and because he believed the only
way for his soul to be cleansed enough that he
could move forward into this afterlife, to the higher realm
was the cash Treac was to take that desire away
from him. So he volunteered to be the first one
to be castrated.

Speaker 9 (01:02:25):
But I think it was kind of a lottery type deal.

Speaker 5 (01:02:27):
The second guy challenged him. He says, no, I want
to be the first one, and they flipped the coin.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Yeah, and the first guy, the one that we're talking about,
I can't remember his name now, he lost that coin.

Speaker 5 (01:02:38):
He lost the coins.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
And it was after this first man was castrated right
there in the main house basically that they were like,
we probably need this to be done in an actual
clinical setting, because again, they didn't go to a hospital,
they didn't go to a doctor's office. I mean they didn't.
They had no professional help for this at all. It
was it was brutal.

Speaker 9 (01:03:01):
I mean, we're not I don't want to go into
details on that, but it was.

Speaker 5 (01:03:05):
They gave imagine how brutal that was. They gave a
local anesthetic, so there was some numbing, you know, I guess. Yeah,
they didn't knock him out of nothing, put him under.
They just it was a local anesthetic that they used. Uh.
They cut open what needed to be cut open, removed
what they need to be removed, sold them back up.

(01:03:27):
And like I said, this was a nurse that was doing.

Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
It, but he was fully awake during all.

Speaker 5 (01:03:32):
Yeah, fully awaken. And and it had a group of
people around watching it happen too. And uh they said
that after it was done, they was talking about prepping
the next person and all this stuff. When they was
going to do it that they said the scrolled them
was visibly swelling on the table and the local anesthetics

(01:03:54):
started wearing off, and the guy started screaming and painting,
and that the stitches busted open, they blood going everywhere.
It was. It was terrible. So yes, I'm not even.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
A guy, and that's barbaric.

Speaker 5 (01:04:07):
Yeah, when I said it was a butchering of the
male anatomy, it was absolutely a.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
Butchering because I mean, these people had no professional training,
they didn't know what they were doing. So but yeah,
I think after that was they started like, Okay, we
just need to find a doctor who this.

Speaker 5 (01:04:23):
Yeah, and what's crazy is of all the male followers,
and I don't have the exact number, only one bought
everyone and all the other males was like, yeah, let's
do this until the butchering happened, and then it was like,
oh wait a minute, And they did say that they
would they would continue doing them if they if and

(01:04:45):
when they found a doctor in a hospital that or
a clinic that would actually not that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
That first man was not the only one that was castrated,
but he was the only one castrated at home.

Speaker 5 (01:04:56):
And are the guy that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
Like these these men that saw it were like, Okay,
it's not enough to tell me I shouldn't do it,
but I just don't want.

Speaker 4 (01:05:04):
To do it like this.

Speaker 5 (01:05:05):
Well, our survivor that we was talking about, and he
after he was the one that was struggling with the slippage,
he saw this botched castration and he kind of realized, Hey,
this isn't going to work. I can't stop with the

(01:05:28):
thoughts like I thought I could, and this medical answer
is not the right answer for me. So he winds
up ultimately leaving the cult, not because he didn't believe,
but because he felt he was unworthy and he would
never be worthy. That's why he left.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
Let's say he wasn't strong enough to do what he
thought they needed him to do.

Speaker 5 (01:05:54):
So it turns out that it worked out for him.
But he even says that he fully to this day
or at the time of the documentary, he fully believes
that D and T were who they said they were.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
Yeah, yeah, to this day he still is a believer technically.
So there was another survivor that I do want to
mention because it was actually his job in it. Because
these people were professionals, they did actually get other jobs.

Speaker 9 (01:06:23):
That's how they helped support the group.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
But his job, like his actual like nine to five job,
basically he was He said that his boss made him
feel special because not everybody could do what he was
trained to do his specialty, so it made him feel
special and he was like, and then I would go
home and there's nothing special about me. I'm not supposed

(01:06:48):
to be special. I'm not supposed to stand out. That
job actually saved that man's life, right, So I do
think that's worth noting. But we actually should talk about
where things started to fall apart, because now we're getting
into the years leading up to the mass suicide event.

Speaker 5 (01:07:07):
Well, there was a lot of signs even when Bonnie
was alive, that it wouldn't want to crack up because
they kept having to change their story.

Speaker 2 (01:07:15):
Yeah, the predictions never came true, so they kept having
to adjust. I think they had like three or four
before the hell Dot comment.

Speaker 5 (01:07:23):
A few of the adjustments were like, oh, this is
just a test to see who the true believers were.
That was some of their examples. The other examples was
the dark side. The dark entities are fighting against us,
trying to keep us from going home with some of
their excuses.

Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
So, yeah, the enemy, basically their version of Satan was
preventing it from happening because you know, didn't want them
to go to the next level.

Speaker 5 (01:07:51):
Yeah, there was always an excuse of why what didn't
happen this time? It was never their fault.

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
And then we see Bonnie gets cancered.

Speaker 5 (01:07:59):
Yeah, and this was in the eighties at this point,
because he passes away in eighty five. And so Bonnie
gets cancer which wasn't supposed to happen, and get sick
about it, and they kind of hide her away a
little bit too.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
From this really, when we see Marshall kind of stepping
up to the leadership.

Speaker 5 (01:08:21):
Role and Marshall was always the better speaker and the
better communicator, so people were used to seeing him up
front talking. But they noticed that Bonnie was absent a lot,
and there was no real reason why, so those questions
beginning to build into There were.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
Some members that didn't live close enough nearby, but once
a week Bonnie and Marshall would still come to them
for teachings and all that kind of stuff. And then
they noticed that one week they just didn't show up right,
And it turns out Bonnie had actually succumbed to her cancer.

Speaker 9 (01:08:57):
Yep, which again was never supposed to happen.

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
They they were not supposed to get sick, they were
not supposed to die of natural causes.

Speaker 5 (01:09:05):
The way they had preached it and taught it was
the two of them were going to be murdered, and
they were going to lay in the street and in
for three and a half days, and then as sind up,
basically be beamed up into a spaceship and then they
were going to come back down in new bodies to
lead the cult home.

Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
Yeah, I mean it was almost identical to the two
witnesses of the war.

Speaker 5 (01:09:28):
So I mean, that's that was their plan. That's what
they had sold this skult on was what's going to happen.
But now and even though none of.

Speaker 2 (01:09:36):
The predictions came true, that.

Speaker 5 (01:09:38):
Part never changed. But now all of a sudden, Bonnie sick,
her bodies fell and and it ultimately does fail. And
so one of the witnesses has died. And that and
according to their religion and their thought and their teachings,
that can't happen. But here it is, and it's happened.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
But the way Marshall realized, and this really sucks because
we mentioned earlier that Bonnie still stayed very close to
her daughter Terry, and it took Marshall Applewhite a year,
a full year after she died, to get up the
courage to tell Terry that her mother is dead.

Speaker 9 (01:10:18):
And he still didn't even do it himself.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
He sent her an audio recording in the mail YEP,
And I wish I could have found that clip, but
I was kind of running out the time today. But
if I do find it, like a lot of these
clips that were not going to show, I'll put them.

Speaker 5 (01:10:34):
Up on our.

Speaker 2 (01:10:36):
Page on X and everything. But yeah, he didn't even
have the courage to tell her himself that her mother
had died, and she admits in the documentary, I felt
very cheated, like they robbed me in my right to
say goodbye to my mother, to have those final moments
with her right.

Speaker 5 (01:10:54):
And that was something that was common too, because once
you entered into the cult, you was told that your
family no longer has any rights to you. Yeah, that
is actually a sin for the family to believe that
they have rights to you anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:11:11):
And there's some heartbreaking phone calls. There was one family
member that after they realized their daughter was in this
cult and everything and wasn't allowed to talk to them,
they actually installed a recording device on their phone and
a month later they had their final conversation with their daughter.
And it's just heartbreaking because again I see the last
time they ever spoke to her.

Speaker 5 (01:11:31):
Now she was allowed to call to her family once
every thirty days, and the family set down recording up
and recorded the conversation. And I don't know if they
knew about the recording. So therefore those monthly phone calls
ended or if it was just timed out, were to Yeah,

(01:11:52):
I'm not sure exactly what ended them at the time,
but her final conversation was the one that actually was
able to record.

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
That's say.

Speaker 9 (01:12:00):
It ends with the mother telling her, you know I
love you.

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):
I love you so much. I need you to know
that I love you and me and a mother like
I'm crying listening to that because I can't imagine having
to say that to the tiny tyrant and not even
knowing if I'm ever going to speak to her again
after that. That, I mean, that is that's beyond comprehension
for me. Yeah, after Bonnie dies and everything, like, Marshall's

(01:12:25):
got to scramble, he's got to adjust because this flies
in the face of everything for years that they've been
teaching their followers.

Speaker 5 (01:12:32):
So at this point, they had been taught that they
would they would have a new body they were well,
just for their followers, that their followers would basically get
a new body that their well, it's not a new body.
Their physical body would be made whole and perfect. It's

(01:12:54):
not like they would they turn it and they twisted
into something different. But it used to be what they
was teaching that their body that you're in now will
be made whole and perfect. But once just like her
and him would die for three days and then come back,

(01:13:14):
go to spaceship, come back down hole. That's what the
followers were told what happen to them as well, just
not to three and a half days. Wait, it would
be immediate.

Speaker 2 (01:13:23):
Yeah, but they were the two that were never really
supposed to die at earthly death basically, So when this
happened to Bonnie, Marshall now has to figure out a
way to adjust to.

Speaker 9 (01:13:37):
Explain this to his followers in a way that makes sense.

Speaker 5 (01:13:39):
Well, yeah, it's because she does have the earthly death,
she has an actual death, and that's why they were
not supposed to happen.

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
Was that exactly? So he starts telling them, well, she
just found out a different way to get to the
next level.

Speaker 5 (01:13:51):
Yeah. That that that the the next level the aliens
had what's the word I'm looking for. They had advanced,
they had changed the parameters. Yeah, that they had found
a better way, in a more efficient way to get
you to the next level.

Speaker 2 (01:14:09):
And I do think, because we were talking about this earlier,
I do think that is the catalyst. I think that's
what set that chain of events into play for this
mass suicide. Marshall had to explain to them, Okay, here's
the better way to get to the next level. You
have to die here.

Speaker 5 (01:14:29):
Well, it lasts another twelve years after this, so I mean,
he makes it believable.

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
You got to keep in mind, even the most sponsable
ever at this point is probably going to ball get
killing themselves. Yeah if you try to do it like
immediately after Bonnie's death.

Speaker 5 (01:14:45):
Yeah, So what apple Watt does. He changes the parameters here.
He says Bonnie found a new way, or they.

Speaker 9 (01:14:53):
She found a better way to get to that next.

Speaker 5 (01:14:55):
Bonnie was revealed to her a better way. She took
it basically, and that the human body that they had
been told would be made new was no longer anything
other than a was nothing other than a vessel for

(01:15:15):
their spirit and their soul. And it kind of works
well because if you remember, they had to take this
or three month cleansing to even become a member, So
the body just being a vessel a shell basically for
that spirit actually kind of plays into their favor here.

(01:15:38):
But now they do have a earthly physical death and
the spirit or soul goes up into the spaceship where
they're made hole there on a spiritual plane, because you remember,
it is the elevated level above human, so they don't

(01:16:03):
even are promised a body anymore at this point. So
that's how he turns it that they had been given
a gift and it was shown through the passing of
Bonnie and that she was chosen to represent this and
to show everybody how it should be done.

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
So yeah, her death I think was the absolute catalyst
for all this. I think if she had died, I
don't think the suicide would have happened.

Speaker 5 (01:16:35):
Oh behind the scenes, I think that that Marshall's reeling
because you see the escalation of everything coming. Then he
really ties into the slippage being a horrible thing. The castrations,
the rules start tappening more and more, the followers have
to all go back to work and work. All their

(01:16:56):
money goes back into paying for the he belongs to
the group. Yeah, I mean you see he's reeling here
and he starts.

Speaker 2 (01:17:05):
I mean he even chokes up in the audio recording
to Bonnie's daughter Cherry. Yeah, Like you can hear him say,
you know how much he loved her and everything, and
his voice is cracking.

Speaker 9 (01:17:14):
You can actually tell that he did care about this woman.

Speaker 5 (01:17:18):
I think that it is more that he his his
again quotes his faith was cracked, that he he honestly
bought into what he was selling. He was drinking his
own liquor. Yeah. And so when Bonnie, his soulmate, dies,

(01:17:42):
that physical death, it rocks. He doesn't know. I think
he's lost to at this point. He doesn't know what
to believe this point either, because he was I believe
he was. He was full in on this. He bought
it all.

Speaker 2 (01:17:53):
Yeah. Like like we said at the beginning, I think
that's what sets him apart specifically from the other cult
leaders that you know, we've already talked about and we'll
talk about later. But it's that he actually, I think,
believed all of this. I think he truly did believe
that they were all going to go to heaven in

(01:18:14):
the spaceship and yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:18:16):
He And again that's why I keep falling back on
him being in that psach, the meeting in the Pacaty Hospital.
I believe he was a patient there is getting or
at least seeking some sort of a medical help there.
He may not have been a patient who was full
time there, but I think he was going there to

(01:18:36):
talk to people then to get treatment.

Speaker 2 (01:18:38):
Very well could be and I think that that tracts
very very well for just the mentality we see with
him over the years because again I think he was
basically the first follower.

Speaker 5 (01:18:50):
Oh yeah, because Bonnie.

Speaker 9 (01:18:51):
Was the leader and everything, and she got him first.

Speaker 5 (01:18:53):
And now that she's gone, he has to lead this himself.

Speaker 2 (01:18:58):
That's his, it's he was the right hand and everything.
But like you said, that was if there is such
a thing as soul mays and everything, that was his. Yeah,
and he just he doesn't know what to do now,
so he has to make her death make sense in
the context of their beliefs.

Speaker 5 (01:19:16):
Well, I said, he carries his on for another twelve
years after her death, so there was a lot of
code dependence between him and the followers of it.

Speaker 9 (01:19:23):
Yeah, absolutely, And I mean followers came and went.

Speaker 2 (01:19:26):
There were a handful of the true dollars stuck around
for all these years.

Speaker 5 (01:19:32):
There were some that made it like the full twenty
years worth of followers, so I mean, we.

Speaker 2 (01:19:39):
Do see it. But towards the end there were only
about thirty eight of them left.

Speaker 5 (01:19:45):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
With all of the predictions, all of the teachings and everything,
all of them not panning out, them having to constantly
adjust the story, adjust the prophecy, adjust the belief and everything.

Speaker 5 (01:20:01):
Event Yeah, this was in the major of course now
that we already mentioned earlier March twenty six, nineteen hundred
ninety seven, and a lot of people out there that
follow space and all the all the goings on up there.

(01:20:24):
We got one show that comes on called The Lost Wanderer.
So I'm sure that he is very familiar with this.

Speaker 2 (01:20:30):
I want a drift to come on. But I invited him,
I think too late.

Speaker 5 (01:20:34):
And the that show comes on Sunday nights usually great,
great show, wonderful show. But anyways, it's all about space,
so he would. I'm sure he was familiar with March
twenty six, nineteen ninety seven for other reasons, and but
maybe that's how he came here. The hell bot comment

(01:20:56):
it's coming through and that, and that's a big deal.
Everybody was was was looking for that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:03):
I was ten years old in nineteen ninety seven, but
I remember learning about the Hallbock comment in school and everything,
because I was in fifth grade. We did all these
projects about it because it was a huge deal because
it only comes around like once in like never.

Speaker 5 (01:21:19):
Two thousand years or something. But here here it is.
It's coming and it's got a long tail on it,
and it's a beautiful site. So, but that's not the
kicker that really set this emotion. Somewhere there's a rumor
pop up that there was trailing the hell bot Commet

(01:21:42):
was a spaceship, and again in the tail, in the
tail of the comment, there was supposedly a large spaceship
that was following me the tail.

Speaker 9 (01:21:54):
And the comment to hide basically.

Speaker 5 (01:21:56):
Right, So, uh, dough or Marshall, I think he sees
that as an opportunity.

Speaker 2 (01:22:05):
Yeah, that's the only opportunity he's going to get. It's
a major celestial event. So of course, with them being
so obsessed with the cosmos, with space, with all this
kind of stuff with UFOs, this comment is if you
could call on godsend for him.

Speaker 5 (01:22:22):
Yeah, finally he finally sees the answer for what I
think he was probably feeling lost too, or at least,
you know, adrift. I don't know what's what's the word.
It's like he was feeling down, he was feeling depressed
or just just sad about the events, going on to

(01:22:44):
wonder looking for an answer because I said, Bonnie has
been gone. He's not really getting you know, the dates
are coming and passing, nothing's happening, but now here comes
this next comment, and I'm sure that got his attention.
But then when the scuttle butt, he except, oh wait,
there's something trailing this comment. We think it's a spaceship,
and of course that takes off running. That's this whole thing.

(01:23:06):
Oh there's a spaceship. Following the comment, I think he
honestly hears that and buys in, finally, this is it.
They're coming to get us. Yeah. I think I don't
think he says food, this is the way out. I
think he honestly, Hey, this is it. They're coming.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):
This is finally to not just convince his followers and
everything that they did have to die in these earthly
bodies in order to go to the next level. But
I think he in a way probably had to convince
himself too, because I don't think he was quite there yet.

Speaker 5 (01:23:40):
I think this was the answer. I think this comment
by itself wouldn't have worked. But when somebody other than
him and his followers, when somebody other than him and
his follower says there's a spaceship, that to him was
all the convintion he needed that this is real, that
is really happening the.

Speaker 2 (01:24:00):
Rest of us. I remember hearing about that too. And
again I'm ten years old, and even I was singing,
that's crazy, you know. But for somebody like Apple White,
whose mentality is already there, this is absolutely just again
to I guess kind of put that religious vent on it.

(01:24:22):
For him, this is a godsend.

Speaker 5 (01:24:23):
Oh yeah, yeah. Like I said, I think he actually
buys in that this is this is his answer, not
just a way out to get out of this mess,
but this is the answer he was looking for.

Speaker 2 (01:24:33):
And I mean, if I remember right, and I mean
keep in mind I was young at the time, but
like we knew that this comment was coming for like
months before it came, Like it was all in the news,
like there were documentaries and stuff I remember watching, like
we watched the Discovery Channel when I was little, and
all the news things about it because it was such
a huge deal because it does not come around very

(01:24:56):
often and it's not you know, or at least visible
to us. But as the time gets closer, now the
remaining there's thirty eight members left. There's thirty eight that
have stuck around what I call the true believers. There's
thirty eight of them left plus Apple White, so thirty

(01:25:19):
nine of them total in Heaven's Gate. But these other members,
and I'll post this on our ex page two, these
members actually recorded basically goodbyes to their families. They were
called exit interviews basically, and all of them look happy.

(01:25:41):
What's amazing to me? And the youngest member, I think
they said, was twenty five years old and the oldest
was in her seventies. But when you look at these videos,
and I've got the entire compilation, but it's like two
hours long, so we didn't want to play it tonight. Obviously,
do they all look happy? They look at pieces. Some

(01:26:02):
of them look excited like they're they're happy about this.

Speaker 5 (01:26:05):
Well, yeah, this is what they was wanting. I mean,
they even have uniforms made up with patches. These patches
was called the away team because he said that's what
they were. But they had been there before. They've been
away and now they're coming back to get us.

Speaker 2 (01:26:20):
They had it was identical dark clothing like basically like black,
like sweatpants or exercises.

Speaker 5 (01:26:26):
Black tops with the patch, black pants, black nakis with
a white swish on them.

Speaker 2 (01:26:31):
Yeah, and then they they did this in increments were fifteen.
This happened over the course of two days.

Speaker 5 (01:26:41):
The talking about the Nakis. They a lot of people
talk about the Nakes. They picked them because the slogan
was does it just do it? I think other people's
report and I think I tend to believe with them.
At the time Nakis, that brand was one of the

(01:27:01):
cheapest shoes you can get. And the fact that they yeah,
and these cult leader this this whole cult. They wouldn't
have a rich cult. They didn't have a lot of
money come in, so I think the uniform they chose,
including the Nikes, was just out of convenience. I often
there's anything more to it, but they have plenty of

(01:27:24):
time coming. And again you talk about them being excited.
Someone other than one of them is the first people
that said the spaceship coming. If someone inside the colt
would have said there's a spaceship behind it, that's a
different feeling. This is there. Yeah, that spaceship, their home ship,
their saviors was identified from some from an outsider from that.

(01:27:50):
It was on the news, so that was all the
just Yeah, it was legitimate. Now, that was all the
justification they needed. They were all convinced this it's real
because someone else saw it before we did.

Speaker 2 (01:28:03):
And keep in mind, these were the true believers, the
diehard group members. They bought into all this hook line
and sinker. They absolutely believed it.

Speaker 5 (01:28:12):
Oh yes, absolutely, these were.

Speaker 2 (01:28:14):
The So when they hear this, it is confirmation of
everything they have spent years and.

Speaker 5 (01:28:20):
It was confirmed by an outside source, which adds it
to legitimacy.

Speaker 2 (01:28:25):
Say, everything just it all fell into place like one
domino right after the other.

Speaker 5 (01:28:31):
And like I said, I'm not and I'm saying that
just basically for myself really to try to wrap my
mind around how they can take this next step. And
that's me rationalizing it and look and thinking logically on
its how from.

Speaker 2 (01:28:46):
The outside to you, like you weren't in.

Speaker 5 (01:28:48):
It, because this happens, like you said, you was alluding
to it. You're about to get into it. This isn't
a one and done. It's over real quick. This suicide,
it takes, it goes over the course of the way
they play it out because they have good steps. Yeah,
but I'll let you tell that part. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:05):
This in total, the all thirty nine members, the deaths
and everything happened over the course of two days. They
were discovered on the twenty six, but probably from you know,
twenty fourth, twenty fifth is well, I don't know. They
were found decomposing in various says of decomposition.

Speaker 5 (01:29:26):
Whatever whatever not. The hell bot passed overs the night
they've done the Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:32):
Yeah, they were discovered on March twenty sixth in various
stages of decomposition. But the experts, the forensics show that
over the course of at least two days, fifteen members
were the first wave. They were the first ones to
commit suicide. And I don't have the exact order. I
have all the names and everything, which we'll do our

(01:29:54):
immemorium later. I don't know which ones were in that
first wave or the second wave or the that last
because it was fifteen on one day, fifteen.

Speaker 9 (01:30:04):
On the second day, and then the rest of the nine.

Speaker 5 (01:30:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:30:07):
So I mean this took time, but it had to
because if you look at the photos and everything that
were released, they have purple shrouds draping them people who
were in the throes of dying. And they did this
with barbiturates and alcohol, which barbiturates will make you extremely sleepy,

(01:30:28):
so combined with the alcohol and everything, you basically just
stopped breathing.

Speaker 5 (01:30:31):
Well, what it was the police when they okay, the
survivor I was talking about earlier. He's the one that
caught it in. Yeah, because when they said that, well,
not one of the survivors realized that old crap.

Speaker 2 (01:30:49):
When they got the video, wasn't you know.

Speaker 5 (01:30:51):
They when they realized that these people were missing, that
they had lost contact right after this hell bot come over,
they called the police saying, go check this out because
these these cult members my friends are missing. So they
call it in. The one that you was thinking about
sought on TV and he realized immediately what had happened

(01:31:13):
because he saw the police lines.

Speaker 2 (01:31:17):
I thought somebody had got one of the quote unquote
exit interviews in the mail, and yeah, turned it in.

Speaker 5 (01:31:24):
But I said, when the police get there, they set
up and the camera crews arrive, they start filming. Hey,
something's going on in the scene of mass suicide. The
other survivor, the one was talking about earlier that almost
got castrated, he sees it on TV and he realizes
what it happened. Puts two and two together, and he
actually feels remorse that he missed it.

Speaker 2 (01:31:46):
Yeah, he's he's upset that he was not one of them.

Speaker 5 (01:31:50):
Now he says, I'm glad, I'm alive, but he still
says he misses his trip, so he's not sure what
his purpose is either way, it's pretty sad. But so
while that's going on, the police started investigating it, and
they said that when they opened up the door, the
smelled us hits.

Speaker 2 (01:32:05):
So we live in the country and we've actually, you know,
we get mice in the house on occasion and whatnot,
and every now and then, like we had one get
trapped up under our dishwasher once, and I remember telling Daniel,
I can smell something, something is dead. That's not a
smell that you can mistake for anything else.

Speaker 5 (01:32:28):
I mean, it's it's just not So the police on
their investigation, they as soon as they smell it, they
immediately they enter in to go. And like I said,
we mentioned earlier that all these cult members lived apart
from one another, but for this event they had brought
in bunk beds and they made makeshift pallettes with mattresses,

(01:32:49):
all in the main house.

Speaker 2 (01:32:51):
Which was wanted to be together, the mansion.

Speaker 5 (01:32:53):
Which was oh Marshall's home, and and they do find
Marshall in the in the main bedroom laid out on
the bed, but in the other rooms they were bunk beds.
They were makeshift pallets with plywood, all of them on mattresses.

(01:33:14):
But still all thirty nine was in this one house.
The way they had done the kill that you mentioned
of whatever you call the medicine they used. Yeah, it
was crushed up and pudding. Yeah, and they ate the
pudding and the vodka. I don't know if vodkas in

(01:33:34):
putting the nod if they just drank that, I don't know.
But they actually put a dust mask like those cheap
ones you get from home depot. It's just the dust
filter masks, nothing fancy, and then tied plastic bags, secured
taped plastic bags over their heads, and then they laid down.

(01:33:56):
And that medicine and all that stuff that they used
makes you pass out. It just makes you go to sleep.

Speaker 2 (01:34:03):
I mean, taking enough of it, it will render you
unconscious exactly. That's why they sep no matter what. But
usually when doctors prescribe stuff like that, it's in a
very low dose so that it doesn't kill you because
it is actually a respiratory suppressant.

Speaker 5 (01:34:18):
Yeah, that's that's the thing they knew it would put.
First off, you would go to sleep, and then that
medicine is already a suppressant for respiratory system, coupled with
the mask which was supposed to stop basically if you
was to vomit. It was to kind of keep that
from going make Yeah, and then the plastic bag kind

(01:34:40):
of guaranteed that the respiratory failure would would have to.

Speaker 9 (01:34:46):
So to turn a phrase that they were dead serious.

Speaker 5 (01:34:49):
Yeah, the suicides.

Speaker 2 (01:34:51):
They were absolutely not intending whatsoever to survive this.

Speaker 5 (01:34:56):
Yeah, they planned it out specifically, and again every one
of them willing. They wanted this to happen because they
was fully committed. They fully believed this spaceship was on
the table, and at the same.

Speaker 2 (01:35:07):
Time they needed certain people. That's I think this is
the reason they did it in stages, because that first
fifteen they were found with purple covers, purple coverings over there,
you know, Torso and their heads and everything like almost
burial clothes. In a way, it was a sign of respect.

Speaker 9 (01:35:27):
But yeah, they all did this all at the same time.

Speaker 2 (01:35:30):
There would be nobody to put the purple covering on
the bodies, and.

Speaker 5 (01:35:33):
The police found in the kitchen all the supplies to
make the concoctions, the puddings and everything and then they
found out they found written instructions that each person had
that told them what to do. And then for the
first wave and then the second wave had instructions on
how to prep the bodies of the first wave, and

(01:35:54):
then they would go lay down. They would take their
messing and lay down. The last person to die was
the nurse and because that they found her with laying
out just like everybody else, but no purple covered, so
which means there was no one left to put the
purple trap.

Speaker 2 (01:36:13):
Did it herself there, I mean, there's still no guarantee
that it would have stayed on her.

Speaker 5 (01:36:17):
Yeah, well they said that they found her last without
the covering and everything. So the so that's that tend
to say that, like you're saying it happening ways, you
had to have somebody there to finish the deaths, to
take care of the bodies basally the prep again.

Speaker 2 (01:36:40):
Trying to do this, you got to give it to him.
They were trying to do it as tastefully as possible,
with as much respect as they possibly could.

Speaker 5 (01:36:47):
If all the if all the cults we've looked at,
this is the most together one honestly so far.

Speaker 2 (01:36:53):
I mean, all of them were heartbreaking, But to me
it's it's almost worse because there were people they knew
to like, Okay, you got to stay behind handle those bodies.
Then your third group, y'all are going to stay behind
to handle the second group's bodies.

Speaker 5 (01:37:07):
And then that just imagine made that nurse the last one,
last one all of the other bodies, and then you
were your last one. I wonder if Marshall was the first,
I would like to think so, I.

Speaker 2 (01:37:21):
Think that to me, it makes the most sense because
he was the original, true boy.

Speaker 5 (01:37:27):
He was the only one found in the master bedroom alone.
He's the only persons body found along. Everybody else was
in groups. He was the only one by self. So
I think, I bet you anything, he was the first.

Speaker 2 (01:37:37):
To me, it makes the most sense that he would
have gone first and his followers.

Speaker 9 (01:37:41):
Would have paid him tribute and you know all of
that as he died.

Speaker 5 (01:37:47):
I think that, And we've went to cross We've went
over this before about how to call these victims or not,
and and I think in this case that because I

(01:38:08):
heard it said that thirty there was one suicide and
thirty eight murders because of Apple White. But I kind
of think that, like you said earlier, I think apple
White kind of fell into it too because he was
a full unbeliever, so I think he was kind of
a victim of himself too.

Speaker 2 (01:38:21):
Yeah, I think you can in a in a sense
kind of considered these murders the thirty eight of them
because they would not have done it otherwise had they
not been led into it.

Speaker 5 (01:38:36):
But again, like I said, I think usually you can
say yes, their murders in.

Speaker 2 (01:38:40):
That ye like Jonestown, absolutely, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:38:44):
But apple he bought into it. He he was a belief,
so I think, like you said earlier, he was the
first follower, so I think he would fall into the
victim category as well. So let's go ahead and do
the now we've.

Speaker 2 (01:38:56):
Got we've got our memorium because unlike you know, Waco
or something where there were you know, eighty ninety victims there,
Jonahstown's gotten nine hundred and nine, like close to one thousand. Tonight,
we actually can do an im memoriam live because I
only have thirty nine names three and.

Speaker 5 (01:39:14):
We got Judge coming up behind it.

Speaker 2 (01:39:17):
Oh yeah, you'll definitely stay tuned because Jack's position is
coming on right after us.

Speaker 4 (01:39:23):
So but.

Speaker 2 (01:39:26):
Yeah, our end memoriam tonight, because that's what this show
is all about, is honoring the victims, remembering these people
who lost their lives due to things that we can't
really quite fathom. This is kind of my idea for
the show, is me trying to make sense of these
things to myself in a way. So, like I said,

(01:39:49):
we've got thirty nine victims here. Obviously A Marshall Hurt
apple White, he was sixty five when he died. Judith Roland,
she was fifty, Cheryl Butcher was thirty two. David Van Sindrin,
If I'm Butcher in names, I'm so sorry. He was
forty eight. Alan Bowers was forty five, Margaret Bull was

(01:40:14):
fifty four, Alfonso Foster was forty four, David Moore's forty,
Julie la Montagne forty five, Darwin Lee Johnson forty two,
Robert Aurantio forty five, Gary Jordan forty three, LaDonna Brugato

(01:40:37):
was forty, Joel Peter McCormick was twenty eight, Gail Mater
twenty seven, Thomas Nichols was fifty eight. John Craig was
sixty two, Margaret Richter was forty six, Susan Elizabeth Nora

(01:40:58):
pop I can't read your Yeah, yeah, fifty three, Michael
Barr Sando or Sandoc, Denise Sando Sando twenty five, Norma
Jean Nelson was fifty nine, Susanne Cook was fifty four,
Jacqueline Leonard was seventy two, Susan Strom was forty four,

(01:41:23):
Yvonne McCurdy Hill was thirty eight, Denise J. Thurman was
forty four, Linley ay Or Hart was forty one, Jeffrey
Howard Lewis was forty one, Erica Ernst was forty, Lucy
Ava peshow was sixty three, and Joyce Scala was fifty

(01:41:47):
And those were everyone that we lost, I say, on
March twenty six. But like we said this, this suicide
took a few days.

Speaker 5 (01:41:57):
Yeah, that was ultimately the the ones who lost their
life in that cult. And let's say there was some
survivors out there, and there's actually still a few followers
that keeps the web side up and everything. So the
Heaven's Gate Court is still active as far as having

(01:42:20):
a representation. But and that's in no way in my telling.
Go look him up, but these thirty nine are the
ones that it's about. And it can be argued that
the thirty eight are the one which you focus on
because of apple Watt and his leadership. But we feel,
or at least I do, that he fell victim to

(01:42:44):
I don't want to say Bonnie's influence completely, but I
think he was a victim of his own self and
whatever he was seeking as well. So it's a sad
case for him as well.

Speaker 2 (01:42:56):
I think now this is one of the sadder cults
that will end up ring just because again I think
that even this leader, apple White, he one hundred percent
bought into everything that he was selling them.

Speaker 5 (01:43:08):
Now he would he be labeled a monster like the
rest of them. You can make that argument. I'm again,
I'm not trying to take his side.

Speaker 2 (01:43:17):
Yeah, we're not glorifying him or saying that what happened
here in any way is right, but just said there
there is some sympathy that you know could exist there.
I mean, you were pity maybe better. I think pity
is the better, the better term there.

Speaker 5 (01:43:35):
Because when we're doing serial killers, it's open and cut.
These people are monsters.

Speaker 2 (01:43:39):
Jones, Jim Jones, Jim Jones is a monster, uh, Charlie.

Speaker 5 (01:43:45):
Monster for sure. But there are some gray areas where
these people, some of these other cults.

Speaker 2 (01:43:50):
There's some nuance for sure.

Speaker 5 (01:43:52):
Uh. To me, this is the only one that pops
into my head right without really looking into it. Is
that because because he was different than the norm he
I think he bought into it. He honestly believed what
he was preaching.

Speaker 2 (01:44:09):
And I don't know that he would have necessarily believed
that specific thing if not for Bonnie.

Speaker 5 (01:44:16):
I think if Bonnie hadn't have died, I don't think
the suicides would have happened, or.

Speaker 2 (01:44:21):
If they did, she probably would have been the Jim
Jones of that one.

Speaker 5 (01:44:25):
Perhaps because I don't think she bought into it like
no he did.

Speaker 2 (01:44:30):
I think that she did find her first follower in him. Yeah,
and he was just because he was so loyal and everything,
she kind of elevated him.

Speaker 5 (01:44:39):
Yeah, And who knows, we said, you know, I just
said that, I don't think the suicide would have happened
if Bonnie was still around. It could have got worse
if Bonnie was still around. It depends on what her
little monk fellow would have told her and her one
of her visits. You never know.

Speaker 2 (01:44:56):
But that's the reason I didn't list Bonnie in any
of this.

Speaker 5 (01:45:01):
No, I don't think, so I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:45:03):
I don't really know. She doesn't qualify as a victim,
and again we're not entirely sure that Marshall does either.

Speaker 5 (01:45:08):
So no, that we actually debated whether or not put
his name in the list, and we ultimately decided to
because I think he honestly believed it. I think he
was a follower of Bonnie's and wound up taking the
helm because there was no other choice. But he was
he was locked. He was locked in. I mean, he

(01:45:28):
fully believed what he was telling.

Speaker 2 (01:45:31):
Yeah, like we said, we can't confirm that he was
the first one to go, but it kind of makes
a lot of sense to us at least.

Speaker 5 (01:45:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:45:39):
But yeah, I mean I don't know. This one was
just a sad case all around. At least this one
didn't involve children though.

Speaker 5 (01:45:48):
No, no children on this one.

Speaker 9 (01:45:49):
The youngest again was twenty five, So yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:45:52):
For some reason, I was thinking twenty two, but twenty
five is what the paperwork said. So but yeah, we
wanted to bring up this one because of course we're
doing the cult series. But I like this one a
lot because of apple Watt being different, not fitting the

(01:46:16):
mold of the other leaders. And but like next week.
I think we're going to look at one of the
other bigger cults. We'll put.

Speaker 2 (01:46:36):
Yeah, that was kind of cool.

Speaker 9 (01:46:38):
We'll let the next one too, So I'll give you.

Speaker 2 (01:46:40):
Three other options.

Speaker 5 (01:46:44):
Yeah, the see Alan Rave, which we mentioned earlier, who
was part who does the You see what he's right
in here in the chat room. If you're not in
the chat room, you should see this. That been in
interesting right there to read says before Heaven's Gate did
that Apple Watson a letter to local preacher Rick Strawcutter

(01:47:08):
and says the FBI was crawling all over his hometown.
That's pretty interesting. I have to talk to him about that.
That's pretty neat. Straw Cutter and a pirate radio station
and injury and everyone knew who he was. Huh, that's
pretty cool, pretty interesting to tie that in like that.
But yeah, well we'll put the another pole out and

(01:47:30):
see who's next. But I think from the last pole,
I think number two was Jim Jones, wouldn't it.

Speaker 2 (01:47:36):
I think, so, yeah, we can use that for the
next two episodes.

Speaker 5 (01:47:41):
Yeah, yeah, we're definitely going I think we might as
well just roll into Jim Jones and go ahead and
get Jonestown out of the way.

Speaker 2 (01:47:47):
Say we'll get the big ones out of the way first,
maybe one or two other lesser known ones very interesting.

Speaker 5 (01:47:53):
Yeah, for sure, we'll hit Jonestown, will be a whole show.
Manson may be show about itself, but then there's a
lot of the smaller ones or or fringe ones that
we can kind of tie together as multiple into one show.
I like doing this cult focused, but I don't want

(01:48:14):
to drag it out too long. I want to get
back to our bread and butter, which would be the
just true crime. In general, there's a lot of stuff
that we can look at that's more current and which
would be kind of neat.

Speaker 1 (01:48:28):
But slow down their hot She's she's less likely to
less likely to make shopping while you're doing this topic.

Speaker 5 (01:48:40):
I'm just saying that is actually true. I can keep
her focused on somebody else other than me. I've been
I've been doing good. I've been letting her buy all
the plants who wants here lately?

Speaker 1 (01:48:51):
So yeah, yeah, just don't pay attention to the one
in the corner that's going to start talking to you soon.

Speaker 5 (01:49:01):
Right. Yeah, speaking of that's a great movie. I need
to watch that again. It's been a while since I've
seen that. It's it's rare that you get Steve Martin
and Bill Murray in a scene together and they are
in Little Shop of Horror and it's the musical Little.

Speaker 2 (01:49:29):
Yeah, that's the musical one. There was the original one.

Speaker 5 (01:49:32):
With Jack Nicholas. Oh, that one don't count ever since,
written ever since the musical comes out, and then and
you've got that cast, the other one no longer exists.
You get Ritten Ranas out there singing suddenly would suddenly say,
oh my god, it's a great movie. I guess I'm
watching that night. Apparently, Uh well, I will be watching

(01:49:54):
that after the other shows go off, because we got
a good lineup coming up the rest of the night
that y'all need to stay and listen to, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:50:00):
Like I said, juxtpositions following us up here. So just
kind of hang out in the chat and everything.

Speaker 5 (01:50:06):
And I didn't know we got a few more minutes.
And that was my fault.

Speaker 1 (01:50:09):
I didn't math very well.

Speaker 5 (01:50:10):
So you guys actually have a few more minutes. I
was thinking it was later than it was. Yeah, it
was my fault, but say I didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:50:17):
I wanted to make sure that we had the time
to do the end memorium this time, So I wanted
us to have a little cushion anyway.

Speaker 5 (01:50:26):
Yeah, I mean we was, we was getting we was
about to wrap up. Anyways, as far as the story goes,
we can still kind of chat about this in general,
about what's going on with Halbot and the spaceship and
well their belief systems and all that.

Speaker 2 (01:50:42):
There was at least one other arrest I know of
in the Ziz case, which if y'all remember that one,
oh yeah episodes back, there is an active what is it,
a militant vegan transgender cult that is currently active in
the US right now and actually is involved in serial murder.

(01:51:03):
And I think there was another arrest in that case too. Yeah,
So again, either I would say followed Andy No if
you're not already following him for those updates on the
active one right now, so because he's been doing deep,
deep dives into that.

Speaker 5 (01:51:22):
Yeah, that's uh, let's a Angie No n g.

Speaker 2 (01:51:25):
Oh, yeah, it's mister Andy No in g O on X.
He's got a YouTube channel. He actually is a contributor
for like the New York Post and everything. So there's
a bunch of ways to keep up with him.

Speaker 5 (01:51:39):
Yeah, and that COLT is active right now. But I
think they've got the main.

Speaker 2 (01:51:46):
Thus now they have quote unquote himself, so.

Speaker 5 (01:51:50):
That'll be I think that'll probably be crumbling here soon hopefully.

Speaker 2 (01:51:53):
Yeah, I hope.

Speaker 9 (01:51:54):
So that one didn't seem very organized at all.

Speaker 5 (01:51:56):
It was trying to, but I don't think it ever
got off the ground very well. They got too violt
too quick.

Speaker 2 (01:52:02):
And with too many genuinely unstable people, like extraordinarily disorganized people.
I mean, one of the guys that they killed they
killed in broad daylight on the street in California with
a machete.

Speaker 5 (01:52:12):
So yeah, I mean, they were just a few steps
away from burning down cyber trucks.

Speaker 2 (01:52:20):
I swear these are people that are scary because they're
so unstable, but at the same time they they kind
of flame out very quickly.

Speaker 5 (01:52:29):
I'm kind of realizing that for our last show on
our specials revolving around cults, so we're gonna end up
talking about this what's turning into a cult now that
is burning all these cyber trucks, and this is anti
you know, they got the Trump Trump derangement syndrome or
the Musk derangement syndrome. It's getting to cult level addictions.

Speaker 2 (01:52:54):
Dulus left in general, which is kind of alarming because
there is there are a lot of these people out there.

Speaker 5 (01:53:01):
I mean they're they're getting violid on every expect even
just man on the straight interviews are turning violet.

Speaker 2 (01:53:07):
Now, I mean, you can't even wear clothing or whatever.
Like I've got a goth maga hat. It's not a
red hat or anything. It's a black hat. But I
think if anybody were to look closely at it, if
they're that.

Speaker 5 (01:53:19):
Well, way is that black? When that musk was wearing
that style, Yeah, he wears he wears the black hat.
So is that hat? So people would recognize it.

Speaker 2 (01:53:28):
But I say, I'm kind of worried about wearing that
in public.

Speaker 5 (01:53:33):
Yeah, we don't really have to. You should.

Speaker 1 (01:53:34):
You should wear it out in public, though you might
become a meme like that one lady and the other gay.

Speaker 2 (01:53:41):
You know, oh the lady that fell down like in
the subway system.

Speaker 1 (01:53:44):
Yeah, chasing the dude out Trinity.

Speaker 4 (01:53:46):
Don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:53:46):
I mean that could help.

Speaker 5 (01:53:49):
I mean you could become.

Speaker 2 (01:53:50):
A part of.

Speaker 1 (01:53:54):
You could be you could be part of a mean milita.

Speaker 5 (01:53:57):
Yeah, they that's all you need to be is a
mean but yeah, that's what I was kind of saying,
is that we was talking about how people could follow
or fall into these cults. Well, I think I think
the newest I think the newest cult we're seeing now
is just being built by the media, and I mean

(01:54:18):
they are training people to believe and the latch on
everything that's being said out there.

Speaker 1 (01:54:24):
Well and finally sorry sorry, part of that go ahead.
Part of that though, is because we are designed to
worship something and yes, there's a big blenk all that
is supposed to be so they keep trying to plug
all these different things into it. None of them ever worked,
but they keep trying.

Speaker 5 (01:54:45):
Yeah. Yeah, we had mentioned that earlier on tonight show
and another show too. It's it's human beings work created
to worship, and when people aren't involved in a church
actively worshiping, they're going to find something to worship and
to follow. It's just a way. Is this our Nature's
the way we were designed.

Speaker 2 (01:55:05):
Like I said, we are all born with a God
shaped hole in our spirits and everything, and you can
either fill it with God who fits perfectly and you
know you will be happy, or you can find all
these other things that are just not quite as fulfilling,
and then you end up miserable and as we often
see now, becoming violent, and you either turn that inward

(01:55:27):
or outward.

Speaker 5 (01:55:28):
Yeah, and there's other things that fill you up and
make you feel complete. And it may work for years,
and it may work for years and years and years,
but at some point it's not going to be enough.
So I would suggest that and I'm not saying be
one religion over the other, obviously Christianity for us, but

(01:55:50):
find that. Don't find it in another person. Don't find
that in a TV show or the news, or a
sports team or a politician, nothing, find that.

Speaker 4 (01:56:02):
In a.

Speaker 5 (01:56:04):
What's the worst? And something lasting. Start with yourself. Start
with yourself, but find something that's meaningful, find that religion,
plug into a local church and uh and try to
fill that hole there, because that's really the only thing
that's going to actually work lastingly. So deep thoughts from Daniel.

Speaker 2 (01:56:29):
We could start doing like kind of a deep thoughts
like from Jack Handy, you know at the end, but
deep thoughts with Daniel.

Speaker 5 (01:56:36):
Yeah, you're good enough and you're smart enough, and dagum
at people like you, but uh, I'm getting kind of
close to wrapping up now because I'm starting to ramble.
I feel myself beginning to ramble because I don't want
to just have error.

Speaker 2 (01:56:52):
No.

Speaker 5 (01:56:52):
Well, I feel myself ramping up into like another long speech,
into getting getting deep and philosophical about something, and I
know I ain't got enough time for that, so I'm like, well,
we probably need to start bringing it back down before
I get rolling again. So uh, I'm gonna go ahead
and say we're we got a few minutes up. But
I'm real easy to find as bump stock Ken on X.

(01:57:18):
That's really all I do, and I do that basically
for this show. Uh, otherwise I wouldn't be on any
on any media. I'm not a social media guy. But
so bump stock kN on it is can. I helped
run the from Front porchs Friends It's show and f
P Underscore friendics on it.

Speaker 2 (01:57:39):
And like I said, I'll have some video clips and
everything that we didn't show tonight just because then are
very long, So we'll be posting them those two the
Front Porch Forensics X page. But Barbie, and that's easy
to remember, it's bump Start Barri and bump stock Ken.
But I'm also right for twitchy. You can find my

(01:57:59):
author page is linked in my bio there on X. Yeah.
I think that's kind of about it for me. I
mean I have the plant page, but that's not related
to anything true.

Speaker 5 (01:58:13):
Yeah, bump Stock, Barbie Front, porchs, forends.

Speaker 2 (01:58:17):
Its, Twitchy, twitchy, Yeah, give them now because I'm a
break from like drama and politics and stuff and I
get that through plants. I'm the crazy plant lady. So
I actually just a couple of weeks ago made an

(01:58:38):
X page for my plants and stuff and it's just
called it's at Split my Plants.

Speaker 5 (01:58:45):
On X, so split my Plants on X and that's
just kind of for planting all things plant related. It's
it's kind of a lot hearted, it's it's informational and uh,
it's just we can try to keep politics out of that.
That's just for plants plant related. Just how fun. But
it's at split my Plants and of course uh klian

(01:59:09):
radio dot com, uh klri and radio on it. Uh
And then we got DUT's position coming up, so y'all
stay tuned for that because I'm sure it's gonna be
a heck of a show.

Speaker 2 (01:59:19):
It always is.

Speaker 1 (01:59:23):
Yep, this is our annual. This is our annual for
a into the Mandela effect, and we haven't we We've
got new stuff, so maybe a two partner by the
time we're all done, so stay tuned for that, folks,
how much I are up next