05-31-25 The One About John Wayne Gacy

Episode Transcript

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Hello k l r N Radio dot com, Friends and
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hostess with the mostest Tonight on Front Porchs for Insics.
The episode is titled the One about John Wayne Gacy,
and I'm sure most people who are two men have
knows exactly who we're talking about here, John Wayne Gacy,
known as the Killer Clown by many, even though there's

(04:07):
no reports they actually killed anyone dress as a clown.

Speaker 4 (04:10):
I like because you know, that's my big pet peeve
with him, So I like that you mentioned that that
he never killed anybody dressed like a clown, So I
don't like calling him the killer clown. That's my little
pet peeve there, right. I appreciate you mentioning that.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, well, I mean it's easy. It's a cool name
because he did dress as a clown for the kids.

Speaker 4 (04:27):
Yeah, and it's still creepy.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Oh yeah, where I understand why people call him that,
but technically he didn't kill anyone. Dresses clown that we
know of now. Gaysey was also known as a fine neighbor,
a pillar of his community, a respect respected businessman, a
powerful political figure in the area. He was even voted

(04:51):
Man of the Year three different times in his area.
I mean, normal looking guy, very jovial. People loved it.
He was always helping people in his neighborhood when winter.
He was up Chicago, so winter around, so he was

(05:11):
always out early morning shoving his sidewalk and the neighbors sidewalks,
and people just loved the man. He was a all
from all accounts, he was a good.

Speaker 4 (05:22):
Dude inside looking in you wouldn't ever suspect what we're
going to talk about tonight.

Speaker 2 (05:28):
Yeah, and his story is not just about the typical
serial killer type layout here. Uh, this is a complex
tale of like what happens when political power, privilege, influence,
and his great charm really mixes with the preconceived notions

(05:49):
of what a monster is supposed to look like, how
they're supposed to act.

Speaker 4 (05:53):
So you always think of it like as the like
an actual creepy looking dude. You don't think of them
looking like your neighbors or anything.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
Right, Yeah, Like I said, this guy, I had an
uncle that really favors him quite honestly, that's weird. Yeah,
But so all that, this, this, all that put together
just created this scenario where major red flags were repeatedly

(06:20):
overlooked and even ignored many times. And all that ties
together with a severe police oversight because again his outstanding
characters that they believe the allegations, and all that added
together creates his actual, honest to goodness true horror story.

Speaker 4 (06:40):
Yeah, these are the ones that's like worse. And I'm
the horror movie freak in the family. You know, stuff
like you know, the Annabelles or the Conjurings and everything.
Thoesn't freak me out. It's these kind of stories that
freak me out. Now, your real stories. This is your like,
your neighbor, even in this case, like he had two children,
your father, your husband. It's terrifying.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
Like I said, it would make a great movie. You
know many series if you wanted to, like you could
see a Stephen King type character, not the supernatural side,
seedy King, but just his evil human side. You know,
I could see this. So let's get back to this.
In the nineteen seventies, suburban Chicago was home to a

(07:23):
man who seemed like a very definition of a model citizen.
John Wayne Gacy born March seventeenth, nineteen hundred and forty
two was a successful contractor, involved in politics, and even
entertained children in hospitals and various events as Pogo the clown.

Speaker 4 (07:44):
Or Patches was some other clown person.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
One Patches was also Yeah.

Speaker 4 (07:49):
Pogo was his main one, that's who he.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah, Pogo's the one he liked to do for the kids,
and he and Gay seven says that Patches is a
darker version of his clown persona, so he didn't bring
it out to the children much. He was mainly Pogo.
But like I said, behind all the smiles and the
handshakes and the friendly demeanor, there was a straight up monster.

(08:12):
This dude was a strict monster. So between nineteen hundred
and seventy two and nineteen hundred and seventy eight, Gasey
murdered at least thirty three young men and boys six
years over thirty. He would lure them into his home
before subjecting them to a horrific abuse and then ultimately

(08:34):
killing them. Most of his victims were buried in the
cross space under Gasey's home hidden basically in plain sight,
like literally underneath him in his yard too. Yes, there
was at least one in his yard. Yeah. The case
finally broke with a disappearance of a fifteen year old
Robert peaste by priest but with no art. P i

(08:57):
s e. Peace leading investigator is right to Gacy's door
and uncovering this his horrific double life. In this episode,
we dive into Gaysey's childhood looking for answers how he
is able to ebate suspicion for so long and the
police work that finally put a stop to his reign
of brutality.

Speaker 4 (09:18):
Yeah, and I do want to touch back, like the
second episode or something that we did was called The
Anatomy of Evil, and that's the name of a book
by doctor Michael Stone. He is a medical doctor, he
has an MD, but he's also a psychologist and a psychoanalyst.
And we talked about him having this twenty two point
ranking system for evil acts or evil people even and

(09:43):
you know number one is like not evil at all,
that's what he does, just where just fable homicides like
self defense come in. Number twenty two is the worst,
is the highest on the scale and those are the
psychopathic torture murderers with torture as their primary motive. And
it can either be sexually motivated or not have a
sexual component at all. It just comprises the torture and murder.

(10:07):
And I do want to touch on to his working definition,
that Doctor's working definition of evil, because that's I think
exactly what we're going to be talking about tonight, he says,
And I'm going to quote directly from the book here,
and it is called The Anatomy of Evil. So if
anybody wants to look into it, I definitely recommend it.
It's very clinical and analytical, but it's very interesting.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
But see, that's where I was confused, because I could
have swore we already done a show on Jason, but
about the book, because he is like the mostre.

Speaker 4 (10:40):
Gacy, is a number twenty two on doctor Stone's scale. Yeah,
he is the highest level of evil. But to understand this,
I need to give you all his definition of evil.
So I'm going to read directly from the book here.
He says, evil is a word we apply to situations
or specific acts that have the of horrifying or shocking

(11:02):
whoever witnesses or hears about these acts. In today's parlance,
the term is less commonly applied to the persons who
are guilty of these acts. Evil, in other words, is
reserved for acts that are breathtakingly awful. Breathtaking because the
degree of violence, suffering, or humiliation imposed so greatly exceeds
what would be needed to express one's irritation, animosity, or

(11:25):
to subdue the victim. He says, this element of excess,
and I like that word. It's excess. This element of
excess is crucial to the customary use of the word evil.
The root meaning of evil from its Anglo Saxon origins.
The word was then spelled y fel, but still pronounced
the way that we do today was quote over or beyond.

(11:47):
So to be categorized as evil, there must be a
flagrant deviation from the standards of acceptable behavior within the
community of the particular culture and time period. The deviation,
that is, must be over and be on what the
ordinary people in that specific community at that time could
even envision as something another human being could ever do.

(12:10):
He says. We can add that when people call a
certain person evil, in contrast to calling certain acts evil,
we imply that the person can be counted on to
commit such acts habitually and often. Even so, it will
only rarely be true that every moment of that person's
waking day is spent doing evil acts. And we have

(12:30):
touch on that because he was a pillar of the community.
I mean, even Ted Bundy worked at a suicide crisis hotline.
So not every waking moment of their lives was dedicated
to evil acts.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
It goes back.

Speaker 4 (12:42):
Some persons of the sort may turn out to have
been unassuming and helpful neighbors or pleasant and innocuous seeming
coworkers who have led, as we eventually learned, unsuspected undetected
for many years, a secret life devoted to the commission
of evil acts. So that's where we are. That's how
this doctor, this psychologist, like I said, he's a psychoanalyst,

(13:07):
he is an MD. That's how he bases his entire
point scale on this, of which Gaysey is the highest
you can go, the highest level.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, it would be considered the worst, I guess, or
the perfect example.

Speaker 4 (13:26):
Probably the perfect example, because this one is going to
be kind of a rough one because we are going
to go into some of the torture methods that he used.
I'm not going to go into gruesome detail at all,
but you'll get a glaring idea of just how awful
this was. As Daniel said earlier, he was born on

(13:46):
nineteenth March seventeenth, nineteen forty two. His parents were John
Stanley Gacy and Mary and Elaine Robison. The father was
a World War One VET, an auto repair machinist, and
an alcoholic, which I do think is worth noting because
even doctor Stone says here in his book he said,
when I started out, I knew of those dozen or

(14:07):
so serial killers, and I couldn't make any gener relations
about Drugger substance abuse. But now, twenty years and one
hundred and thirty serial killers later, it is clear that
about a third of the men had one or both
parents who were alcoholics. Now this is not to say
that like everybody who has like an alcoholic parent or parents, is,
you know, going to grow up to be like this.

(14:27):
I had an alcoholic parent, My daddy was an alcoholic,
and I turned out fine. Don't okay, I heard it.
Don't you shush? I heard it. Gaysey's father actually named
him after the iconic John Wayne. Yep, that was what
he was named after, because he had this, I guess,
masculine ideal for his son, and he thought naming him

(14:50):
after a strong masculine figure would influence him somehow. But
Gasey instead actually enjoyed things like baking and sewing with
his mom and the sisters. Like he just didn't stereotypically
have the interest that you know, we would think boys should,
didn't really like playing outside, didn't like.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
Sports, especially back in that day and age. Absolutely, I
mean even today to an extent, but.

Speaker 4 (15:14):
Yeah, those stereotypes are still there. But in like the
forties and going into the fifties.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
He was born in forty two, and so this would
be yeah, right into early just start the fifties, yeah,
early late forties, early fifties.

Speaker 4 (15:29):
Now, I mean the father was still you could say, abusive. Arguably.
There's not a whole lot of background on this, but
we do know that he would often take a razor
strap like what you would sharping, you know, shaving razor yeah,
big weather belt for to all his children for any
just perceived misbehavior. But he often focused a lot of

(15:52):
this punishment on John, so like John got the brunt
of it and everything, and he would always disparage him,
comparing him and contrasting him to his sisters, which probably
didn't help this dichotomy that I'm supposed to be like,
you know, a typical boy and everything, but then you're
comparing me to my mom or to my sisters and

(16:12):
my other siblings and everything who were females, and saying
that I'm not measuring up. So that probably caused a
big dichotomy there in his brain that he couldn't understand.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
At that age. Yeah, I saw some interviews from one
of John Wayne Gacy's childhood friends who said that if
because you would be sent outside to play right, you
come back in at dinner time, Well, there was no
set dinner time, so if he come back in late

(16:41):
for dinner, even though it was just a minute past
them setting down to eat, he wasn't allowed to eat right.
So and then I could also get punished. But so
the childhood friend would say a lot of times, if
they stayed out too late and realized it's closest supper time,
that John would just eat at that person's house and

(17:02):
then they would call and say, hey, Johnny's going to
spend the night here. Yeah, just to sav ingim from
going home and getting beat up. Basically, yeah, getting punished. Yeah,
so the community knew that this was going on, that
was going on.

Speaker 4 (17:15):
Gaysey also actually he was generally unable to play like
the other boys and everything due to a congenital heart
condition that he had. And I don't know the specific condition.
I just do know that he had a congenital heart issue. Yeah,
but I mean this caused alienation at school, and his
father even then saw it as just another.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
Failing, another weakness.

Speaker 4 (17:37):
Yes, So, I mean there's a lot of stuff here,
especially with his father, that we could speculate on that
easily influenced. And this also goes back to another episode
we did, the Nature versus Nurture. There's a lot of nature,
but there's also a lot of nurture here with this one.

Speaker 3 (17:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (17:56):
So, I mean it was kind of the perfect storm
to create Gaycy the way he was. His Actually, his
psychosexual history began between the ages of six and ten
when a teenage daughter of his mother's friend, So the
mom's friend and everything, her teenage daughter reportedly undressed and
played with him. We have no idea what they played,

(18:18):
but if you have to undress to do it, it's
not a healthy game to play.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
With a child, is that from Gaysey's comments, or.

Speaker 4 (18:28):
It just says it was reported by like family friends
and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (18:32):
But because I know there were some other things I
reported too that supposedly happened to But yeah, and I
say supposedly, I'm not doubting it did. I'm just saying
it's you know.

Speaker 4 (18:42):
Another alleged thing was that another family friend who was
also a contractor ironically also sexually abused him when he
was a child. Now, this kind of stuff creates what's
called a paraphilia. And I've touched on this and other
episodes too. I'm not going to give you that whole
big breakdown, but a paraphilia is just an intense sexual
arousal to atypical objects, situations, or individuals. Let's say, like

(19:08):
the pedophile. It obviously becomes now a disorder. This person
has this paraphilia, and overwhelmingly what we know now about
pedophiles is because they were abused at a very young
age too, so their sense of healthy sexual relationships is
warped from the very beginning. But this becomes now a
fixation for them. So it becomes a disorder when it

(19:31):
causes significant distress and subsequent behaviors like when they start
acting on it. They're always formed during the formative years,
which can start as early as two years old and
going to the teenage years. So we're talking like this
decade block of a child's growing up and learning about
the world around them, when it's that heavily warped and

(19:53):
everything by these awful things that other people are doing
to them, it causes all these significant problems for them
the future. It's not to excuse or justify anything that
they do, but it does kind of help you understand
how they came about that mentality. I guess like if

(20:14):
we can understand it, it's easier to combat it, you know,
like we can fix it. If we know what to
look for, we can help protect these future vulnerable kids
from dealing with that. Yeah, he again, like he was
apparently playing the teenage girl of the family friend, the
mom's friend's daughter. You know, undressing. Whatever you have to

(20:37):
do to play with a child, if it involves undressing,
it is not a healthy game, no at all, Like,
not even a little bit. This is not like, you know,
just kids being genuinely curious about their bodies. That's a
different thing. This was a teenager.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
She knew better Yeah.

Speaker 4 (20:52):
And she did it anyway, likely again because she had
probably been abused like that and she thought that was normal.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
Yeah, if you thought the patterns, yeah, it would probably
be so.

Speaker 4 (21:04):
But now we're getting into his teenage years. Uh, Gacy
and a friend before this, like after you know, he
started to grow up and everything. He and a friend
were actually accused of sexually molesting another girl that they knew.
I don't think anything ever came of that. That's the
only thing I could ever find on it was just
that they were accused of it.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
Yeah, this whole story had a lot of times where
accusations were made and either were dropped or just wasn't
followed up on. So there's a lot of open ended stuff.

Speaker 4 (21:36):
Yeah, there could be speculate on.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
And it could be a sign of the times back
then too, on how things were handled.

Speaker 4 (21:43):
A lot of stuff like that, especially if of all
sexual things that was very taboo. You did not talk
about that in public, You did not make that public knowledge.
So everything was like swept under the rug and just
kind of ignored and hoped it would go away, which
is absolutely awful. We see so many problems with when
he grew up in that era that dealt with stuff
like that that still have psychological trauma to this day.

(22:07):
But as a teenager now Gaysey has realized that he
has actually attracted to other boys. He is homosexual, like
he's just not attracted to females. Yeah, due to his
father's further abuse over this, he struggled with his homosexuality
until the day he died.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yeah, even throughout all through prison, everything.

Speaker 4 (22:25):
He was he would deny that he was a gay
man or anything, but everything we know this was a
gay man and he had to repress that for various
reasons where he felt like he had to repress it.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
He was very open about too, in the things that
he looked at and asked for while in prison.

Speaker 4 (22:43):
Yeah, both his wives openly talked about the pornography that
he consumed was homosexual in nature.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
And that book we read that guy who made Friends
with Gaysey and the pen past Jason Laws. Yeah, Yeah,
he even was talking about how Gacy would ask him
for things him.

Speaker 4 (23:04):
Yeah. Jason Moss, And that's another one that was it's
called the Last Victim and it's heartbreaking because Jason Moss,
I think I think it was June of twenty twelve,
actually ended up committing suicide. But he made friends. It
was for a college course that he was taking on,
like criminology and all that kind of stuff, and he
decided he was going to make like pen pals with

(23:24):
a lot of these people. He even wrote to people
like Ted Bundy. He wrote to Charles Manson briefly. And
it was funny because shortly after that Manson was allowed
to receive now, but he was no longer allowed to
respond to.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
Yeah, he fond Maxon actually finded a few times, and
then very shortly after that they they.

Speaker 4 (23:43):
Were like, no, he can't talk to anybody. Yeah, which
it was understandable for Manson.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
That Jason Moss was he befriended Dahmer.

Speaker 4 (23:52):
Yeah, before he died.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
He got some from Bundy too, Yeah, like one letter
or something.

Speaker 4 (23:59):
I think Gaysey was one. He became true pen pals
with the Gaysey. It was again would ask him like,
can you send me, you know, photos of yourself with
that shirt on.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
Well, while we've got while we're on this subject real quick,
we'll just expand on it. But uh, again, the book
is amazing. If you highly suggested you didn't read it,
it's not that long of the book and it's.

Speaker 4 (24:22):
Really Yeah, there are photo copies of the actual letters
he sent and he got back from the various killers
that he corresponded with.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
And it's Jason Moss, the last victim. The last victims
named the book, but Dommer Bundy and Manson and he
and Richard g. Marius right then, I think.

Speaker 4 (24:44):
So he wrote to so many of them, but those I.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Think were the which Okay, that's what it was. He
got the Now, Moss got the most successed with the
Gaysey but he got a lot of success with the
Nights Talker too, to the point that some over mary
As his people actually showed up at his house.

Speaker 4 (25:03):
Yeah, it was. It started to get very dark for
him very quickly.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
Tell you what, we'll do a show on that book. Yes,
but right now, since Gaysey this in Jason Moss is
connected right here, well we'll go talk about it. But
he got so close to Gaysey that he actually gave
Gaysey his home phone number. Yeah, and they would call
each other every Sunday and talk on the phone.

Speaker 4 (25:27):
Not only that, but Gasey found out that Jason had
a younger brother, yeah, and started asking Jason, can you
get me candid photos? Like don't tell your brother. You're
taking these pictures? Can you get me pictures of him?
Like Devil's underwear? Yeah, stuff like that. And Jason was
for a long time willing to do this. It messed
him up for a long time.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Well he he well he was reluctant, but he never
said no about it. He always come up with excuse
while he's not home. And it was his younger brother. Yeah,
so we're talking ten twelve year old boy.

Speaker 4 (26:00):
But I say Jason is what maybe he's in college
at this point, so in late teens to early twenties here.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
But anyways, the last victim, Jason Moss.

Speaker 4 (26:13):
That assures you that yes he was interested in boys
and other males, but of specifically young men and boys.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
That's why he got us. All this is because he
would deny. But in his private life, inside the prison
and all that, he was open about it. Yeah, I
mean he was. He would willingly talk about it, and
he lived his life that way. Even though he was
closeted publicly about it. It was obviously around it. There

(26:42):
was anybody he made contact with. It was pretty obvious.

Speaker 4 (26:44):
Yeah, there was no coming out for gaycy because I mean,
keep in mind, abused by his father for having these
homosexual tendencies and everything. So he repressed them for a
long time because again this day and age, it's not
celebrated like it is now. No, like it was just
something you hit a there's a reason they call it
in the closet, you know.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
Now they didn't have a whole month for back then.

Speaker 4 (27:06):
Yeah, But I mean that said this, he kind of
realizes that he is homosexual and attracted to other males
during his you know, teenage years, which is about normal.
I mean that's kind of standard, I would say for
the most part anyway. But uh, okay, Gasey.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
I mean that's when you naturally start realizing. Watch.

Speaker 4 (27:28):
Yeah, that's when like puberty hits and everything, you start
realizing who and what you're attracted to.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
So that would make sense, it was right.

Speaker 4 (27:35):
His was also mixed up in the abuse that he
had suffered before too. That again and it now became
a paraphilia and not a healthy sexual outlet. He actually
didn't graduate high school, but he did attend and graduate
in Northwestern Business College. Then he goes on to work
as a salesman and a manager of a shoe company.

(27:56):
Now we're in nineteen sixty four, he has met and
got engaged to Marlon Myers, whose father owned three KFC's
in Waterloo, Iowa. So Gasey ends up relocating there to
manage the restaurants, and he and Marlon had two children together.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
Now this is where his first life moved into in Iowa, right.

Speaker 4 (28:16):
Yeah, Waterloo, Iowa, where.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
He had he's lived in a air quoting normal life,
has children. Yeah, So I mean obviously he's.

Speaker 4 (28:28):
Been a successful businessman. He's now he's helping manage those
three restaurants. From there, he goes on to be a
self made building contractor, and now he's a Democrat precinct captain.
In the nineteen seventies, he also had aspirations to run
for Alderman mayor and eventually the Senate. And he told
the author of a book called Buried Dreams that quote.

(28:50):
And maybe it was a way to get acceptance. I
was always looking for acceptance because my dad made me
feel like that I was never good enough.

Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yeah, and I think that was throughout his whole life too.
He always was trying to find that acceptance from everyone.

Speaker 4 (29:04):
Kill that boy.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
You mentioned him having political power, Uh, not just an
ours just now when he moves back you. We'll talk
about that a minute. When he moves back to Chicago area,
he politicians would seek him out for him to what's

(29:25):
the word of approval?

Speaker 4 (29:27):
I guess too, Yeah, because I mean he was involved
when I think when he went back to like Chicago,
is involved with like the j C.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
Civic Group, and but yeah, they would seek him out
for campaign health not necessary advice, but to push their
campaign because he was connected with being hit. He well
he in Iowa. I'm sorry the head in Chicago. But yeah,
even in Iowa, he was already building that.

Speaker 4 (29:57):
Reputation being respectable and trustworth and like if he advocated
for somebody, okay, that's somebody.

Speaker 2 (30:03):
You could vote for, you know exactly.

Speaker 4 (30:05):
He was building that trust and respect already. He again
extremely well liked in the community, involved with the j
c's Civic group in Iowa and in Chicago. He would
have just these big gatherings of like neighbors, families, friends
and everything that sometimes totaled over four hundred people. Oh yeah,

(30:27):
and they were like movers and shakers at the time.
I think rick I sent him a picture. There's a
photo of him, and it's from night Yeah, it's from
nineteen seventy eight, but it's him with ross at first,
Lady Rosslyn Carter, president, Jimmy Carter's wife. And again that
picture was taken in nineteen seventy eight, but that just
shows how far he came up in political circles.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
Yeah, that's why I was getting that. In Iowa, he
would have started cutting his teeth on it. Yeah. And
then when he eventually does move back to Chicago area
and just continues. When he gets back Chicago, he builds
his own starts his own construction company, and he has
ties all in the CD, all in the state really,
and he uses that power and influence in the political

(31:11):
towns to really.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
Because he was friends with the Carters, wouldn't that make
them serial killers by proxy?

Speaker 4 (31:17):
Hey, by the logic of the left today. Yeah, Jimmy
Carter and his wife were guilty of something. Hey, that's
just using their logic.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
Hey, and Jimmy Carter wound up built now is in
construction now.

Speaker 4 (31:29):
So okay, we are skipping at a lot. I want
to go forward now to just nineteen sixty eight. I
think I touched on sixty four and everything.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
So now we're in sixty fourth when they move to Iloura. Right. Yeah,
so now we're going we're living his normal white pick
of fence life in.

Speaker 4 (31:44):
Iowa, and now we're gonna start seeing the chinks in
that image because in nineteen sixty eight, Gasey is accused
of sexually assaulting a teenage boy and attempting to assault.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
The second one, still in Iowa.

Speaker 4 (31:55):
Still in Iowa. He denies these allegations, and because of
his stature of the community, a lot of people believed
him over the victims, you know, who were boys at
the time, teenagers. He then persuades an employee of his
to attack that boy just to try and scare him
away from testifying against him.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
Yeah, the boy.

Speaker 4 (32:15):
Ends up going. It was an unsuccessful attempt, So the
boy ends up testifying against Gasey. Gasey is now convicted
of that crime is sentenced to ten years.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
Well, Gasey makes a deal and pleads down to a
guilty of just sid of me at the time, just
sid of me, and thinking that that lesser plea asidomy
would be basically a slap on the risttop deal, and.

Speaker 4 (32:45):
He would, I mean it kind of was he his
sentence to ten years, Well.

Speaker 2 (32:48):
That's what I'm saying he was. He wounds up getting
sentenced to ten years. But the original plan was him
to get like probasing kind of stuff. He wasn't you
supposed to do need jail time, So any kind of
jail time to him, it's surprising.

Speaker 4 (33:01):
Now this time Marlon leaves him, she divorces, she gets custody,
full custody.

Speaker 2 (33:07):
He winds up. Gaysey winds up going to prison in
Iowa on a ten year sentence, and his first wife,
while he's in prison, divorces him, gets full custody of
the children in the boom, she's they're out of the
picture at this point, gone.

Speaker 4 (33:20):
Which is probably the best thing that could have happened
to them, honestly.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
But we don't see them again in the story here.

Speaker 4 (33:27):
Yeah, they're they're out. Gaysey is actually a model prisoner though,
and was released on parole after serving only eighteen months
of his sentence.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
Also something that happened while he was in prison again
only eighteen months. But during those eighteen months, his wife leaves,
his kids are gone, and his father dies. Okay, yeah,
so those things so big. The last thing that his
father knows of him is that he goes to jail

(33:57):
for sight of me, of a boy, that's the last
thing his dad knows, and therefore he can't fix that anymore. No,
he can't, he can't undo that.

Speaker 4 (34:06):
Let's say, he can't justify to his dad like, you know,
why didn't why it doesn't mean that I'm actually gay
or anything, because that was a big deal between him
and his father, was his homosexuality.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And you know that had
to stick with him. We know absolutely.

Speaker 4 (34:21):
I think he actually did talk about that in prison,
not ever being able to tell his dad.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
What happened quote unquote probably. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (34:27):
Now that was nineteen sixty eight. Just in the following year,
after another team has come forward claiming Gaysey lured him
into his car, drove the team to his home, and
forced him into sex. Those charges ended up being dropped though,
because that teenage boy did not appear in court. This
is just the next year.

Speaker 2 (34:46):
Was that was still an hour of that point? You
think so, because.

Speaker 4 (34:49):
Now, with the financial help from his mother, Gasey bought
the home at eighty two thirteen West Cuerdell Avenue in
Norwood Park.

Speaker 2 (34:56):
So the second allegation in Iowa.

Speaker 4 (34:59):
He he leaves and goes that's when that's when he leaves.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
Now the boy didn't show up in court. I wonder why.

Speaker 4 (35:05):
See, that's what I'm saying, Like he already tried to
like basically intimidate or threaten and hurt another one.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
He paid the first one for the end, but the
guy didn't get a job done. I wonder if this
time it will happen again and he got the job done.

Speaker 4 (35:21):
Maybe that would absolutely track. I think does entirely.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
And then when that case gets thrown out because there's
no witness, there's no one to press charges, that's when
he's like, all right, I gotta get out of here.
And his mother again, his father's passed on. At this point,
his mother helps him move back to Chicago.

Speaker 4 (35:39):
Because you got to keep in mind, like he had
built up a name for himself there in Iowa, and
it all came crumbling down with these allegations in this
prison cents.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
A lot of the like you said, he had have
financial help from his mother because a lot of this,
a lot of his money had made went with the wife.
And then and then he was in legal fees. He
was in jail fright too much, wasn't making any big income,
so he was down on his luck, and.

Speaker 4 (36:01):
Yeah, so mom helped him. And I did state the
address a second ago because to me, like it's a
it's a valid thing because not to put like two
Hollywood a spent on it. But that became the House
of Horrors. And that was eighty two thirteen West Summerdale
Avenue in Norwood Park, Illinois.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
Did you have that one memorized as a six year old?

Speaker 4 (36:24):
It was nine years olden A memorized Dahmers.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
So, well, you wasn't born at this point, so yeah.

Speaker 4 (36:30):
I was only four when Dahmer got arrested. Anyway, but yeah,
I had his address memorized by the time I was nine.
It wasn't six, get it right, Okay. Anyway, we're in
nineteen seventy one now.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
So it's nineteen sixty eight back too, and then Chago.

Speaker 4 (36:49):
Yeah, it's about seventy into seventy one.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
So now we're moving. So at this point he is
back in Chicago. He's hook it back up with all
his friends, all his jc's, all the people that he knows.
He's starting to build that reputation here in Chicago.

Speaker 4 (37:05):
Now.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah, and in.

Speaker 4 (37:05):
Nineteen seventy one, that's when he actually started his own
construction business called PDM Contractors, which was painting something and maintenance.
I forget what the do?

Speaker 2 (37:17):
Oh yeah what was that? That didn't matter, yeah anyway, but.

Speaker 4 (37:22):
Yeah, PDM Contractors was the business he started in nineteen
seventy one. Also in seventy one, he actually became engaged
to a woman named Carol Haff, who he briefly dated
in high school.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Yeah, that's why I was getting back. He was starting
to hook up, reconnect with all his old friends and stuff.
He meets Haff again, He's back on his feet. Everything's
rocking and rolling. He's starting his own business. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (37:45):
He and Carol met up, got engaged in seventy one two,
and they were married in seventy two.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
In seventy two, I remember I started when I in
our opening, I said he killed between seventy two and
seventy eight. So all this was rolling on. He's getting
his feet back back up under him, and.

Speaker 4 (38:04):
He probably at this point probably was still molesting boys
and you know, at least doing some shady stuff that
we don't know about.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
Right, he was getting his rots off somewhere. Yeah, you know,
he just.

Speaker 4 (38:16):
Was to my knowledge, I don't think him and Carol
Hoff ever had any children from the first marriage.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
That's why Hoff even says that intimacy between them was
not Yeah, she's the one who.

Speaker 4 (38:27):
Talked about the pornography that she found and everything, and
she knew he was gay. She just stayed with him
and everything because it would have been a scandal to
divorce him.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
Right, And from all accounts, for the most part, it
was the typical nineteen seventies marriage. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (38:41):
I mean they put on a good show.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
Yeah, And of course arm Candy he was growing in
the community, getting a big name for herself, so it
wasn't a bad gig. But anytime she would have asked
him about the pornography or ask him where he's been,
or ask him what's going on, he was getting continually
more aggressive with telling her to stay out of his business. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (39:03):
Absolutely, say it's alarming and it's telling to that the majority,
and it is a contracting business, so like I get that,
But the majority of his employees were his type. They
were the young boys or you know kind of young men,
younger men.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
A contractor's job working outside, that's is perfect.

Speaker 4 (39:25):
But I think what he was doing when he hired
he was cultivating like his his little pool of prey.
I guess because all of the employees he reportedly propositioned
many of them for sex and often under the threat
of violence. This was known among his employees, So again
I think he was choosing them specifically because he liked them.

(39:46):
This was his little personal pool of boys and young
men that he could pick from, that he could pray on.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
But he would always laugh it off, like, no, he
was just joking with them. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (39:58):
Now we know that he committed his first known murder
in January of nineteen seventy two, So right off the bat,
in nineteen seventy two we get his first no murder.
This is after he lured sixteen year old Timothy McCoy
to his home. Now, Gasey claims that the morning after,
McCoy was standing in the bedroom doorway with a knife

(40:20):
and attacked him, and Gasey claims that he was able
to wrestle the knife from McCoy and then ended up
stabbing him in self defense. He later kind of backtracked afterwards,
he said he realized that McCoy had simply just made
them breakfast. But it was also the moment that Gasey
realized that he got sexual gratification from the killing. Because
in that book Buried Dreams that I mentioned earlier direct quote,

(40:41):
that's when I realized that death was the ultimate thrill.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
Right now, this boy realized he liked it. This boy,
he wasn't one of them buried under the house.

Speaker 4 (40:51):
Was he?

Speaker 2 (40:54):
Actually?

Speaker 4 (40:55):
I don't have, like I have all the names of
the victims.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (40:59):
I think when most of them were found either on
his property or underneath the house. Yeah, because those were
his earliest ones.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
But he was That's what I'm saying. This first he was.

Speaker 4 (41:10):
The first murder, and I do think that he was
on the proper he was one of the bodies on
the property.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
Okay, because I guess was I was going to ask,
is this some of those things like the police were called,
oh my gosh, it was a misunderstanding and all this
kind and he got away with that?

Speaker 4 (41:24):
Or is he just saying they think they he did
get away with it. I mean, he did, you know,
tell police like it was self defense and whatnot. This
one did get investigated because I think if it was
his first murder, he probably did panic because you know
this one and the first one is always the messiest too,
because you don't really know what you're doing. You just

(41:48):
you panic. So he was like, okay, maybe if I
tell him it was self defense, which worked.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah, well, I mean it was. It's a plausible thing
because you get woken up and there's a guy standing
with a knife. I mean, yeah, you're in the state
of confusion, you know, so I can see how he
could talk his way especially. Yeah, he's already got some
some trop apparently the boy.

Speaker 4 (42:13):
The boy is no longer here to tell the police
he attacked me. He raped me. That's why I had
the knife. I was trying to defend myself. The boy
is not there to save this anymore. Yep, So they
only have his word to go on, so it seems
kind of open and shut.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
Then they don't have the word of a prominent figure
in the community.

Speaker 4 (42:31):
Yeah, that was well known, well liked, I.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
Mean respected, gave the boy.

Speaker 4 (42:36):
They thought it was like a tragic thing.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Gave the boy place to sleep that night, to the
need of the place, and got attacked in his own home.

Speaker 4 (42:44):
Yeah. Maybe said the boy was going to try to
rob him or something for money and then run away
or something. But yeah, I mean, he he got.

Speaker 2 (42:51):
Away with that one what year was that seventy.

Speaker 4 (42:55):
Two January of nineteen seventy two. The next one is
eighteen year old John Bukovich, who was also a PDM employee.
He was lured to Gaysey Solme under the pretense of
discussing overdue pay. Once he was there, Gaysey gave him
alcohol and implemented his handcuff trick. Yep, which his handcuff

(43:16):
trick kind of you have to recognize the genius in
a simplicity here he would Gaysey, you know, being a
clown and everything he would kind of break the ice
and everything was just some cuty little clown tricks and everything,
and then he would show, oh you want to see something.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
Part of his clown performance was magic tricks. Yeah, and
this was and he had props for these magic tricks
and the handcuffs and the rope and some things like
this is come into play for his props for his
clown show.

Speaker 4 (43:46):
Yeah. And I mean once he gets the boys here,
of he starts doing a lot of these tricks for him.
But the handcuff trick was his again, his most genius one,
because he would he would put his hands behind his back,
he handcuff himself together the boys would check the handcuffs.
They're locked. You know, you can't shake them, lose nothing.

(44:06):
Gasey would start fiddling around back there and then blah blah,
he reveals his hands and he's out of the handcuffs.
And then he would tell the boys.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
Now you try well, they would ask him, so, how
did you do that? Yeah? And shocked.

Speaker 4 (44:18):
You know, they're fascinated by this because.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
These wouldn't the play handcuffs with a little release switch
that that kid's gotten dirt.

Speaker 4 (44:26):
These were real Handcuffsyea.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
These were actual police style handcuffs that actually locked, because
you know and the little toy kids, you got these
little handcuffs that were metal, but they had their little tab. Well,
they had a little tab on the side that you
could reach with your thumb and it would release. We
didn't need a key. Well, these were actual key handcuffs,
real handcuff.

Speaker 4 (44:46):
The boys did not know this then, so when they start,
they're fascinated, you know, how did you do this? And
he's like, oh, you know, I can't tell you, but
why don't you try it.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
I can't show you, but I can't tell you, but
I can show you that you got to put them.

Speaker 4 (44:57):
All Yeah, So That's why I said, this is kind
of genius in its simplicity. A lot of these boys
willingly handcuffed themselves in this man's home. But of course,
you know, he was applying them with alcohol and like
pot and stuff like that, so they're kind of under
the influence.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
Yeah, they were easily influenced in things because they their
inhibitions were down.

Speaker 4 (45:22):
But then once they realized, okay, I don't know how
to get out of these you know, how do you
do it? He'd pull the keys out of his pocket
and say, well, you got to have the keys. Yeah,
And so now they're at his mercy. They're handcuffed. What
can they do? Like their hands are behind their back.
Another trick that he did was a rope trick where
it was not quite like a noose set up.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
It was just it was a loop of rope tied
off on one end, so it was just a loop
like a tourniquet, and then he would put the stick
in there and twist it like you would a tourniquet
on your leg.

Speaker 4 (45:53):
But there was another way he would tie the rope too,
and I don't exactly know the not, but the more
they struggled, the tighter it got.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
Yeah, that was just the way the turniquet was made.

Speaker 4 (46:01):
Yeah, but he would he would take like a length
of wood or something and kind of loop it into
the rope and twist it to cut off their circulation
and their oxygen and everything. And sometimes he would do
this repeatedly. He'd make them pass out, he'd let them
come back into consciousness and everything, and then he'd do
it all over again.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
A lot of times they said too, that he would
use chloro form to knock them out when they after
he got a mancuff and they would wake back up
with the rope ordered around their neck. Yeah, and that
way all I could do was just apply.

Speaker 4 (46:31):
Well that or he'd sit there and watch them struggle,
watch it tighten up, and he would tell investigators that
he knew based on the color of their skin, the
color of their faces as they slowly cut off their
own circulation, and their struggles, that based on their coloring
and their struggles, he was like, I knew exactly what
I could do to them and when I could do it.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
Yeah, he had done this enough and studied it enough,
and that he knew how their bodies were reacting and
when they were going to pass it out versus what
was too much because he wanted to prolong it. He
wanted to keep them.

Speaker 4 (47:04):
I think some of the first ones he ended up
either accidentally killing or intentionally killing. But then he realized
that it happened too fast and he wanted to prolong it.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
Next time, you practice makes perfect, you know.

Speaker 4 (47:16):
Yeah, I mean as dark as it is to apply
to this, that's exactly what it is. Now after this,
like I said, this was Bukovich, which was the first
one we know of that the handcuff trick came into
play because now he starts again perfecting his techniques and
how he's going to subdu these boys. Because keep in mind,

(47:38):
he's kind of an overweight guy and everything, and these
are young, healthy teenage boys and young men.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
Now he was, he was overweight, but he is very
strong too.

Speaker 4 (47:48):
Yes he was, but he's still in better shape than
he was.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
One of the ways we knew that he how these
tricks worked is because one of the boys escaped.

Speaker 4 (48:00):
I'm going to touch on him in just a few minutes.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
But you was talking about being strong and all that. Yeah,
that's one of the reasons this guy was able to
get away because he was a wrestler.

Speaker 4 (48:08):
Yeah. Now, Buckovich's parents were actually suspicious of Gaysey, and
they called the police more than one hundred times, urging
them to go question him, to investigate him for their
son's disappearance. Like police already, Now, like, okay, we've got
his criminal history. You know, it's got to be known

(48:30):
even among police there. You would think that they would
know about it, but thought, maybe oh he changed.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Oh no, they don't know about it. At this point
he hit it. Yeah, okay, I'll tell you about all that.
They don't know about his criminal record till like seventy eight.

Speaker 4 (48:44):
Yeah, now we're getting into the mid seventies. Now, two
more young men actually accused Gaisey of rape, and Gaysey
was questioned about the other disappearances prior to that.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
At this point, he was questioned the way he was,
the way he was going about it. Again, early seventies
to mid seventies, you didn't have a computer to go
look up stuff. You had actually physically called.

Speaker 4 (49:07):
And they had no reason to check because he.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
Was an understanding when he come back from Iowa. The
reason he came back from Iowa was because he got
divorced from that old woman. Yeah, and he had to
get out of town. He didn't mention none of the
legal stuff. Right, and here hometown boy coming back made
good on his self. This evil woman screwed him over,
poor poor Johnny.

Speaker 4 (49:28):
What reason did they have to look into his background?

Speaker 2 (49:31):
No reason whatsoever. So he comes back in. He's very
strategic with jobs he's taking and the moves he's making.
That's one of the reasons he creates his own business
is because there was no need to do a background
check on himself if he's the one hiring himself. So
he was very strategic in keeping his his past in

(49:53):
Iowa hidden.

Speaker 4 (49:55):
And again that day and age, it was so much
easier to do.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Oh yeah, for sure, so much easier to do.

Speaker 4 (50:01):
Like we were talking about that earlier, Like it's so
it's much harder today to get away with serial murder
than it was back then. But now in the mid seventies,
this is what Gaycy himself actually describes as a quote
unquote cruising years. This is where he would like drive
the streets of Chicago at night, looking and trolling and hunting.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
Is he still married to the second life at this point?

Speaker 4 (50:23):
Yes, I think so. Gaysey was also known to dress
up like a police. He had a leather jacket, he
had the sunglass, he had a dark colored sedan and everything.
He presented himself as a police officer. And this is
actually how he picked up a lot of the victims
when he was out on the streets just riding around

(50:44):
at night.

Speaker 2 (50:45):
Yeah, he had a not a uniform, but he had
like the detective look.

Speaker 4 (50:51):
Yeah, like a like a detective, like a police officer.
And that was again, very very strategic because there other
cases that we'll get to along the line somewhere with
our show of men who either are police officers and
abuse that authority in power, or they've actually gone to
great links to make themselves appear as they are a

(51:14):
police officer in order to get their victims. So Gaysey
actually implements a little bit of this too. Now here's
this one bothers me. One of Gasey's victims was a
seventeen year old employee named Gregory Godsick, and he told
his family that he had actually been ordered to dig
trenches in the cross space beneath Gaysey's home. So this

(51:34):
man actually hired one of his future victims to basically
dig his own grave or multiple graves along with it.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
What he would do is he said he had some
problems with the second system, and he'd send this boy
and what just him, there's a few others, but you
would send him underneath the house with very specific places
to dig these trenches. And while he was under there,
he'd have them spread out line to have covered up
the scent. But again he would he would tell these boys,

(52:03):
that's the issue. So that's what explained the bad smells,
and that Gasey would go under there and finished a
job after the trenches were done, but it would be
you know, it was he couldn't fit under their well,
but he needed boys could and they would do a
good job. He would pay them do that.

Speaker 4 (52:24):
Now, also in the mid seventies, this is when Gregory Gotzick,
the one that he had hired to go up under
the house and dig some of those trenches. He goes missing. Yeah,
so his family actually contacts Gasey when greg went missing.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
That kid dug his own greg Yeah.

Speaker 4 (52:38):
And John told them that his family that greg had
confided to him about running away. But now it's after godsick,
here's the one that got away. And I kind of
hate saying that like that, but he is the one
who got away. He did, like Gasey did, abduct, torture
and rape this victim, but he let him live.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
This is a different one I'm talking about.

Speaker 4 (53:01):
Okay, this one, he actually let him loose with the
instructions and warning not to tell him he willingly released him.
This was nineteen year old Robert Donnelly. He was abducted
from a Chicago bus stop and taking a Gasey's home.
Once there, Gasey would dunk Robert's head into water repeatedly
until he passed out. So basically he waterboarded this kid.

(53:24):
Then he would bring him back to consciousness. Gasey would
also perform psychological torture by way of fake executions with
a gunloaded blanks. This boy went through unimaginable torture too,
so much so to the point that he was begging
Gasey to kill him.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
Oh what year was that.

Speaker 4 (53:42):
I don't have a year on that. It's just it's
before nineteen seventy eight, so mid seventies.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
I know his second hoff his second wife divorces him
in seventy six, and I think that's when he started
doing his cruise and that's why I was asking. Yeah,
I think you're because he had more freedom to take
him back to his house and keep them there for
a longer periods of time.

Speaker 4 (54:01):
Yeah, because that was It wasn't necessarily the killing. The
killing was obviously a part of it, but the torture
was his goal. That's what he that's what he really
got off on.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
But up to up before until the divorce, he had
to be careful, Yeah, about he had to wait till
she was over her parents' house or otherwise out of
town to do his right, his killings.

Speaker 4 (54:24):
Yeah, everything I think leading up to that, she just
couldn't take any more. She leaves to.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
Yeah, eventually I see it becomes him being gone all
night with no answers, and every time she would ask,
he would say, this none of your business. She was
actually starting to find paraphernalia that belonged to his victims
in the house. She was complaining about the smell, and
he would say, ah, there's rats in the cross face

(54:51):
and all this kind of stuff. And she finally she
had had enough and she divorced him. Yeah, but she
was finding she was aware of the pornography and all that,
like you said earlier, and finally she's like, you know
what I'm just I'm not putting up with this anymore,
she leaves. She didn't realize that it was killings going on,
but she knew that something was bad off and that

(55:13):
she wanted out, so she divorced him.

Speaker 4 (55:16):
It was probably lucky because just out of self preservation,
she could have ended up a victim.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
Maybe.

Speaker 4 (55:21):
I mean again, just sheer self preservation. He would have
killed her just to keep quiet.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
Or paid someone to do it. You know.

Speaker 4 (55:28):
But what this Donelly kid went through and what he
is openly spoken about after he was free and everything
and went to the police, that tells you the amount
of torture and everything that these other boys that did
not get set free, what they went through. I mean,
this was so bad that this boy, Robert Donnelly was

(55:49):
begging to be killed because that was better than what Gaysey.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
Was putting through. And when he got away, or when
he was let go, he was quiet for a minute.
Then he went to he did go to the police.

Speaker 4 (56:02):
Yeah, Gasey actually does let him go, warns him not
to tell anyone, but dominantly does the right thing here,
and he went to the police. Anyway. Gasey told the
police when they questioned him about it that it was
quote a consensual sexual slavery encounter, and he killed his
next victim one month later.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
Well that was also kind of the first time Gasey
has to admit if it's homosexual tendencies.

Speaker 4 (56:24):
Yeah, he was questioned about it and now had to
tell him this was a consensual sexual encounter with another.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
Man and they and again we saw this with Dahmer
and his boy they got away. Yeah, it's consensual slavery
type game being played. And the police and in this
case they didn't want nothing to do with it. So
I just looked the other way.

Speaker 4 (56:46):
If I say, asked one of those things that were
still very taboo, and they're like they kind of cringe
at it. Look the other way.

Speaker 2 (56:52):
And again pillar of the community. Remember this was seventy seven.

Speaker 4 (56:58):
Yeah, this was probably like into the laters he one,
We're going to seventy eight.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
He was deep into the political movement of the area.
Oh yeah, he's just months away from meeting Miss Carter,
the President's wife. You know. I mean, he was a
a surious, serious player.

Speaker 4 (57:15):
That's what I wanted to mention about that photo with
First Lady Rosalind Carter, because it was taken in nineteen
seventy eight. That photo was taken seven months before he
was arrested for the murders. Yep, that's it. Seven months.
That's ten years after his first arrest forsodomy, but only
seven months before he's arrested for multiple murder.

Speaker 2 (57:36):
Yeah, there's that picture he just put back up there. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (57:42):
So yeah, we're now into the late seventies. By nineteen
seventy eight, Gasey had no more room in his cross
space for bodies. So now he starts to dump his
victims in the Desplains River off Interstate fifty five.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
Well, he's got twenty seven out under the house, he's
got one just buried in the backyard, and then he's
got at least five that he winds up admitting to
dumping into the river.

Speaker 4 (58:11):
Right, I think, I honestly think there's probably more than
thirty three total victory. But those are just the ones
we can confirm.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
There's definitely more victims. There's I think there's been more
than thirty three murdered, yeah, for sure, But they're.

Speaker 4 (58:28):
Saying a ton of victims probably throughout his life.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
Oh sure, And.

Speaker 4 (58:32):
I do think that there's more than thirty.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
Three murder victim. I think so too.

Speaker 4 (58:37):
So now again we're in nineteen seventy eight. This is
when everything just comes to a head. Basically, on December eleventh,
nineteen seventy eight, fifteen year old Robert Peace went missing
after telling his mother he was going to go meet
Gasey over a potential job offer. Gasey tells police he
never saw Peace that day, and I need y'all to

(58:58):
keep that in mind. He says he never saw this.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
Boy on missing, denies that he ever saw him. That
he even denies that he was even.

Speaker 4 (59:06):
At the pharmacy. Yeah, So Robert's family files the missing
person's report and that ends up leading them directly to
Gaysey's door, and this is when his home starts to
be searched.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
I've got more and we can touch back on Roberts
Peace's mother and all that in that whole situation too,
if you want me to do that now.

Speaker 4 (59:27):
Yeah, go ahead, since we're already talking about that.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
So, Robert, fifteen year old was working at this pharmacy
pharmacy and one of the guys that he was working
with had mentioned Gaysey as being, Hey, you know this
guy hires kids our age. If you want to make
more money if you're willing to do that work because

(59:50):
it's construction work. Go talk to him, and priest wanted
more money, especially for that upcoming summer.

Speaker 4 (59:59):
He was saving up you buy his first car.

Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
So he what month was this, you haven't.

Speaker 4 (01:00:04):
December eleventh is when he actually goes missing.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
Yeah, So he was talking to him about an upcoming
job that he wanted to do. When when it got
busy again. Basically, so, uh, Robert's mother shows up to
pick him up from the pharmacy from work. Well, he come,
he runs out and tells his mom, hold on, I'm

(01:00:27):
gonna go meet this contractor for a summer for a
job that pays like.

Speaker 4 (01:00:32):
Double, yeah, twice what he was making at the part.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Wait here, I'm gonna or actually, I'm just gonna go
hang out. I'm gonna go talk to him.

Speaker 4 (01:00:41):
So he tells me was a coworker, a seventeen year
old girl that was working with him that night. She
had actually borrowed his jacket because she got a little
chill leader in her ship that day and she had
developed a role of film or something, you know, stuck
the receipt in her pocket in the pocket of the
jacket and just went on about the day.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
Yeah, so Peace goes on back inside where Gaysey's at.

Speaker 4 (01:01:04):
Yeah, Gasey's actually in here. The other coworker specifically says,
quote a large man came in, and the seventeen year
old coworker thought he seemed kind of out of place there,
but Peace had said, you know, I'm talking to him
about a job, and.

Speaker 2 (01:01:22):
Yeah, Pecee says that. He goes back in, he finds Gasey.
He says, hey, hear you hire boys my age to
work for you, and I really want to make more money.
So Gasey says, well, come with me and I'll have
you fill out an application and anything. We'll talk it over.
So they actually go out back the back interest because

(01:01:45):
Gaycey's parked in the alleyway behind the place, and I think.

Speaker 4 (01:01:49):
Peace had mentioned something that his mother was waiting outside
or something, so he didn't want to go out front.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
So Peace's mother at this point she waits in the
parking lot, she said, about twenty minutes, and she finally
just goes home, thinking that Robert is meeting with this
guy and he'll come home later because she was having
a birthday party at her house that night. Yeah, so

(01:02:15):
she had to get back for that and expected him
to come back home, but she couldn't wait anymore. Function
Peace was not.

Speaker 4 (01:02:22):
One of these other teenagers who was prone to run away.

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
Like.

Speaker 4 (01:02:25):
He had a good family life. I mean, he was
close to this family. So when he disappeared, they were like,
this is not like him.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
Yeah. After the party finally ends that night, late into
the night, that's when she calls. The cops shown up
and she didn't have a name other than a contractor. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:02:43):
The seventeen year old cowork or two just said it
was a large man. Yeah, she said, large man came in.
She thought he seemed out of place. Around eight pm,
when Robert shift was nearly over. Apparently, she says, this
man asked to speak with him out the back about
a summer job that would double what he was currently
making at the pharmacy. So Robert got his jacket back

(01:03:06):
that she had borrowed from him. Who got his jacket,
put it back on, went out the back door, never
seen again. That is the last anybody ever saw Robert.
And remember, at this point, Gaysey has told police that
he never was anywhere near where Robert was that day.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
Yeah, one question about it. He says that he wasn't there.

Speaker 4 (01:03:27):
Now when they do go and search his home, because
there is enough evidence to at least get a warrant
to search the home.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
Yeah, I mean, you've got witnesses saying that a large
contractor was there asking to hire a boy for work,
and that's his that's what he did. People knew that
Gaysey hired these kids.

Speaker 4 (01:03:48):
Yeah, and like he would offer it to local kids
all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
So of course the comps will be like, well, I
know a big bodied contractor that.

Speaker 4 (01:03:55):
There were a lot of other things that led to
the warrant for the search and everything. But in his
house they discover some stuff that raises a lot of eyebrows.
They find police badges, a pistol, hypodermic needles, pornography, and
other items that they later discovered belonged to some of
Gaysey's victims. And one piece of evidence there that since

(01:04:17):
the entire case was that receipt for the photo developing
at the pharmacy with the date, and Gasey had said
flat out repeatedly he had not been at the pharmacy
that day. He never saw Robert that day. How would
like and the seventeen year old coworker told him. She said, yeah,

(01:04:39):
I borrowed his jacket from him and everything, and I
just absentmindly, like stuck that receipt in the pocket. He
got his jacket back before he left.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
Yep. So that ties that receipt to the store to
Robert announce in his.

Speaker 4 (01:04:52):
House on the day that he went missing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
They also take in possession some like I said, some
pornography and all that stuff. But some of the evidence
a stack of IDs like driver lozes and stuff of
a bunch of random guys, and.

Speaker 4 (01:05:09):
Some of them they recognized were the boys that have
been missing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
One day started doing the investigation. Later on they realized
a lot of these kids are missing kids.

Speaker 4 (01:05:18):
I think they found more evidence that was Robert piece.
I think it was a class ring.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
That was his that they it was a different boy. J. A. S.
Was the initials on it. So whoever you got in
their memory H J S O or JAS or something
of that.

Speaker 4 (01:05:35):
Something the initials the high school was where that boy
went to high school, and the initials matched his name.
So they found that boy's class ring in Gaysey's possession,
and there is no rational reason for him to have that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:47):
No, And this was December eleventh.

Speaker 4 (01:05:51):
That was December eleventh, that's when Robert Peace went missing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
So now that's when the investigation really starts looking at
at gay Cy.

Speaker 4 (01:06:00):
You know, probably in the days and weeks leading up
to everything else. Is when they started searching. Once they
found that receipt and was able to connect it to
Robert Peace's disappearance, that's when they got an even more
extensive warrant to search the home.

Speaker 2 (01:06:16):
Well, they made a request for a more extensive warning,
and again the will the justice is slow, so it
took him a while to sign that off. But what
they did do is they started surveillance on Gaysey at
that point.

Speaker 4 (01:06:32):
Oh, this does bring up a story that I wanted
to talk about with the surveillance, because they had him
serve like under surveillance, like twenty four to seven. It
was twelve hour shifts. They had two shifts of two
different police officer teams, yeah, and twelve hours a piece.

Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
Basically four men, and they was zoning twenty four to seven.

Speaker 4 (01:06:49):
Yeah, they rotated in and out. Gasey knew that he
was under surveillance after a certain amount of time. I
don't know if he knew from the very beginning but
he knew that he was under surveillance, and at one
point he actually walks outside and starts talking to the
cops and everything. Well, they're having these conversations and everything,

(01:07:10):
and somehow it gets around to his acts as like
Pogo the Clown and everything, and he starts bragging to
this cop. He's like, oh, man, all these what does
I say?

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
Well, I was trying to be quiet about it.

Speaker 4 (01:07:24):
I can't read.

Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
We got it. Well, that's why I was going to
hand it to you. Uh, we got Stephen here asking Hey,
I'm sure y'all will address this, but what is the
twenty twoth scale. If y'all get a chance to.

Speaker 4 (01:07:34):
Answer to that, say, we can circle back to it.
But yeah, we did talk about it in the very beginning. Yeah,
the conversation. He ends up walking outside to the cops
like sitting in their car, you know, outside his home,
and starts having a conversation. Somehow that conversation gets around
to his work as Pogo the Clown, and he starts
bragging to this cop. He starts talking about like, oh,

(01:07:56):
you know, if I'm dressed up as a clown or something,
and you know I'm at these parades or I'm at
this event or something, I see this woman that I'm
attracted to. I can just go straight up to or
put my arm around her and essentially cop a feel.
And then this police officer in later interviews says that
the most chilling thing that a murder suspect has ever

(01:08:17):
said to him in his entire career was Gasey smiled
at him and said, clowns can even get away with murder.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
Okay, So I like looking at the law enforce some
side of it, and I have several interviews and conversations
from these actual cops that were surveiling how all that
played out. Yeah, absolutely, so. They were following him and
in the beginning, of course, again they all knew that

(01:08:46):
Gasey was a high fellutant guy in the neighborhood. So
he was coming out. He's very jovial with laughing it up, like, hey,
I'm sorry, y'all have to waste your time on this.

Speaker 4 (01:08:59):
Yeah, all that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
So it was very much a friendly banter between him
and his survey like coffee. He would actually one night
it was really cold, he had actually invited two of
them into his home, and this matters. He and buy
some ment a home to get some coffee and warm
up and go to the bathroom everything. So anyways, but

(01:09:20):
the way that was happening is like he would wherever
he was going, and he would see him in town
especially we had an audience. He'd walk up to the
wind of the car and the cops roll it down,
and he tried to sell him pot. Was a joke, yeah, like, hey, y,
you'll want to buy some pot. You wanna buy some weed,
you know, as a joke, and they would all get
a laugh about about it.

Speaker 4 (01:09:40):
And the thing is, I don't know why they thought
they could get away with surveillance anyway, because as a
mover and shaker in the town and everything, he knew
the cops.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
Oh yeah, that's the whole thing. They was never.

Speaker 4 (01:09:49):
They were never trying to hide.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
They was never from the beginning. They wouldn't hide in it.
They were just always there and he knew they was
always there. Like there was one time he went to
the dinner to eat and and the two cops was like,
are you hungry? So they just got up and win
in the diner with him, sat at different tables to eat,
but John would send the beer to their table and

(01:10:12):
wave at them and stuff like he knew they was there.
And two of the police detectives, the ones that actually
are the ones that issued the arrest to him, they
said that they actually had to remind themselves that hey,
this guy is a monster, because they they caught up.
They was beginning to get caught up in his charm
and because the whole town, I mean the whole town

(01:10:35):
was on his side. He had friends and family, the neighbors,
everyone loved Jo and even the cops themselves was saying
that we was getting caught up in it.

Speaker 4 (01:10:45):
I think some of this too, like him going up
like doing the joking like hey, you want to buy
some pot or something. We kind of see this with
like BTK and the Zodiac when they start taunting the police,
but he never went to that extent.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
Ay John was doing it is he was trying to
win them over, like man, why are you wasting your
time on me? And trying to lead them get them
on his side. Basically, so he would do that, like
I said, by with the joke today you want to
buy some pot and all that bottom beer. He invited
two of them into his house because it was cold,
to get coffee, and he was very friendly with them

(01:11:23):
talking to them all that stuff, and the heater came
off for this wintertime December, and that first gust of
air from that floor register when the heat came on,
one of the cops immediate smelled that death from underneath
the house. He couldn't do anything about it then, but
he knew what he had smelt. So that's when he

(01:11:45):
goes back and starts asking for a more extensive warrant,
an extent, and the more extensive warrant specifically on the
cross face underneath the house. So when they start looking
into that, it's when they find reports from that. They
go back and find those reports from that one family
that was for the boys, that they was digging underneath

(01:12:06):
the family missing the family. That boy had told in
one of the reports that that's what John was having
him do, was dig underneath the house. I imagine the boy
was going home saying, you won't believe what I had
to do today. So the parents of that missing boy
had already mentioned something about the cross space and the
smell previously. So once that cock come back and comes

(01:12:29):
in and makes that report of what he had smelled,
they started digging. But like cold, wait a minute, that
boy said that he was underneath their digging, so they
add the cross space specifically to the search warrant that
they were trying to get. Okay, But again the judge
was like kind of slow rolling this because he's a

(01:12:51):
high member of the community. So there wasn't any So
there wasn't any I'm not saying slow rolling on I understanding,
there wasn't any immediate rush to They didn't feel like
this immediate threat and they had to get it done,
but they was the wheels were just kind of slowly moving.

(01:13:12):
But the police, they knew that they were starting to
pick up that with the manipulation that he was giving
them and the support from the town, that this is
going to take a long time and it may actually
go cold, just fall apart. So they start planting seeds

(01:13:33):
of doubt into John by talking to the people of
the town, and they was kind of letting a little
bit of information slip on why they were surveilling about
things going on their house, just a little just a
little bit, and they let slip that they was trying
to get a they were just waiting on a second

(01:13:57):
search warrant. They let that information slip, which got back
to John and the police. The two investigators said that
they saw a marked change in him once that information
got out.

Speaker 4 (01:14:07):
Yeah, you said that. That was when the drinking got
a lot heavier.

Speaker 2 (01:14:11):
They started acting out more in public. He started drinking heavier.
He started getting belligerent with his friends and family. He
would his jovial attitude would shift on the dime, and
he would get angry. Sometimes were beligerent, but then he'd
go right back to trying to smooth everything over. They
could see the crack starting to form.

Speaker 4 (01:14:30):
Yeah, which was what they were trying to do in
the first place, like get him to make a mistake.
But yeah, I mean all of this eventually, at least
they do get that warrant and everything to search underneath
the house and on the yard property everywhere.

Speaker 2 (01:14:45):
Okay, And you want to know how they got to work. Okay,
So yeah, this is good. I'll go from that. So
this is December twenty something, that's the teens. You know,
Christmas is coming up. John up to this point had

(01:15:06):
always had his house decked out to the nines for
Christmas and all that, but this year, of course, it wasn't.
He had become increasingly drunkard. He was starting to get
a little more hostile to the police that was telling him.
You could tell things were changing. Well, they kept putting

(01:15:27):
the screws to him and kind of needling him about this, uh,
come this warrant that was coming, and that they would
have it as soon as I warrant it. Well, finally, John,
in a drunken stupor, was beginning to tell some of

(01:15:48):
the people in his neighborhood that he had killed people.
But he was super drunk and it was just people
well in the neighborhood. But they were starting to tell
the police. I hate John say these things. Yeah. So
one night, December twenty first, I believe it was something

(01:16:09):
like that, at one am.

Speaker 4 (01:16:12):
I don't have any of your notes on ok.

Speaker 2 (01:16:14):
At one am he calls his lawyers, their business lawyers
is for his business, and he calls them, shows up
at their office. And he had got a lawyer because
of all the legal issues going on with the with
the surveillance it's and all that stuff. So he had
a lawyer going and he's like, shows up today, y'all

(01:16:41):
got to meet me there with this can't wait. He
gets them out of bed one o'clock in the morning.
So let me back up. Why after they after the
cop smells the thing in the register, he comes back
and he starts, Hey, we got to really start turning
the screws on this guy. They start digging deeper because

(01:17:02):
the other boy mentioned being in the underneath the house.
So they're like, okay, these things are starting to tie
again too. Now that boy's missing too, So now they're
starting to turn things up. This one cop finally calls
over to Iowa where he was living. He finds out

(01:17:23):
that he was living in Iowa for a while, talks
to them. Turns out that's how they find out about
the eighteen months sin ye. So they're like, whoa, he's
got a history of this all of a sudden. Yeah,
so now they add that into the search want request.
They have the stench, they have the evidence found at

(01:17:46):
the house, they have his.

Speaker 4 (01:17:48):
History, they have what the missing boy claimed that he
was ordered to do.

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
All that other information, and they take it back to
the judge and they start pushing it harder. At this point, Well,
that news gets back to John that they know about
what's going on in Iowa, and that's the day he
gets super drunk and causes lawyers in the night. Yeah,
so the middle of the night at one am. Of

(01:18:20):
course he's being surveillance. So they followed him to the
lawyer's office and they and the two police officers said
that they was watching through the windows and you can
see John being real adamanated, adam animated. But he said
what was really curious was that the lawyers were just
quite as a sheep. They looked sick, they looked scared,

(01:18:43):
they looked physically threatened. Yeah, one of the lawyers comes
out and tells the cops block his car in if
he tries to leave, don't let him leave. Even if
he tries to leave, shoot his tires out, y'all can't
let this man leave here. And then he goes back in. Well,
the police can't do that, you know. So shortly after

(01:19:03):
John comes storming out of the building, doesn't say anything
to the cops. He jumps in his car and he
takes off, So the police following right, and he's driving
really erradically. He's taking all these unnecessary turns, driving super
fast and the going real real slow, just really erradically.
And he goes to the shell station or might be

(01:19:25):
a Sick Goo gas station, where he was known to
frequent and do a lot of his business deals and
and he would meet with other contractors and things like that,
just kind of the hub where he would go to work.

Speaker 4 (01:19:38):
I was saying there, I mean those were a legitimate business.

Speaker 2 (01:19:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:19:43):
Yeah, another shady at least.

Speaker 2 (01:19:45):
That we know of that he just frequented there, right,
And uh so there were the two police officers park
out on the curb and they're watching him through the
glass doors, and he's hugging the guys inside the gas station,
shaking their hands, being real real handsy and touchy with them.
Just realed out of character. And then he takes and

(01:20:07):
makes a drop off basically right in front I mean
right in the open view of the window, just pushes
this bag across the counter to the two guys that
work that worked there, and then he leaves, jumps back
in his car and takes off again real fast. Well,
the police they go in to see what happened. They

(01:20:29):
walk inside, and as soon as they walk in the door,
the two guys at the counter just push that bag
go back across the counter and say, hey, it's marijuana.
And it was a lot like two bags part and
he put they pushed it back across the counter and
say we didn't buy this. We didn't ask for this.
John just came in and gave it to us and left,

(01:20:52):
and so we don't want it. This is not ours.
We ain't got nothing to do with. Of course, they
take it for evidence. They take they send another cop
out to get their statement, all this stuff. They jump
back in the car and go after John and they
find him shortly after on down the road. But at
this point they say, okay, we have reason to arrest him.

Speaker 4 (01:21:15):
I say, the pod along right there, did it?

Speaker 2 (01:21:17):
They arrest John Wayne Gacy the first time, originally for
possession of marijuana with intent to this tribute is basically
what it is, and not selling it, just with the intent.
And I think they said the delivery of a controlled
substance or whatever. Yeah, So they arrest him and they

(01:21:41):
take him in. John immediately starts saying, oh, I'm having
chest pains. I think I'm having the heart attack. I
got to go to the hospital. So they take him
to the hospital. Well, while they got him in police
custody at the hospital, they go back to the lawyer
that next day and he's not the lawyer but the judge,

(01:22:02):
and the judge finally signs off on everything they get
the full Okay, they get the full search warrant. Go
do you can find whatever you want. It covers everything
the house and the.

Speaker 4 (01:22:13):
Grounds, probably any other property that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:15):
He oh, all properties. Yeah, everything that he am.

Speaker 4 (01:22:18):
Every contract job that he worked on.

Speaker 2 (01:22:20):
It was the complete deal. Have at it. They finally
had enough on him, got the judge degree. They've already
got him in custody. I think that's what was the
final point. And so they sign off on it, and
they immediately go to the house. They go in the
front door and.

Speaker 4 (01:22:39):
Knows exactly what he's gonna find.

Speaker 2 (01:22:40):
Oh, yeah, they already know the look. So they go
straight to the cross face crawl under house and the
very first shovelful. They didn't have to dig around the
very first shovelful. They scoop up and got human remains
in it, the very first one.

Speaker 4 (01:22:58):
So now this is where again everything just comes to
a head. Like he's arrested for murder.

Speaker 2 (01:23:04):
Yeah, the police there at the seeing call it in.
They called the detective at the hospital. He goes into
John's room where he's waiting on him, and arrests him
on the spot for murder. I mean, and John don't
even resist it. He's like, yeah. Now, when they did
arrest him for the drugs, John was off whining, why

(01:23:24):
are y'all doing this to me? What's going on? I
thought we was friends and all that. Yeah, when they
arrest him on the murder charge, he don't even throw
a fit. He's just like okay and they take me times.

Speaker 4 (01:23:35):
Because you see that sometimes with other serial killers, it
seems like there's almost that moment of relief, you know
that they don't have to like fight and hide anymore
and it's all over. There is that momentary, just second
or two of relief that they feel.

Speaker 2 (01:23:51):
Oh yeah, and that was I mean, we've seen some
others actually say that they felt a relief when they
was called. And I don't know if John did, but yeah,
like I said, when they come in get him for
there was no reports him struggling or denied anything. They
just took him in.

Speaker 4 (01:24:09):
Yeah, I know. He does make a full confession. His
trial actually begins on February sixth of nineteen eighty.

Speaker 2 (01:24:17):
Well, he makes the full confession, but only to the
surveillance guys. He would not make a confession to anyone else.
He wanted those four guys that were prevailing because they
were his friends. Yeah, and they say that while they're
still digging underneath the house, he's making this confession and
he owns up to every single one.

Speaker 4 (01:24:37):
Yeah, he confesses to at least like thirty.

Speaker 2 (01:24:39):
He confesses to thirty three that he can name. He
says that there's twenty seven under the house. He takes
a paper and pen. He draws a diagram, this kind
of rudimentary diagram of his picturess, basically a square and
then a bunch of little rectangles inside.

Speaker 4 (01:25:00):
Where he's diagramming the cross face under his and.

Speaker 2 (01:25:02):
He was marking what her bodies are. He was saying,
this area has three bodies in it. This little area
has two bodies in it. Over here is my first kill.
And he's in this corner. And he drew it out
and that handwritten diagram matched perfectly with what the police said.

(01:25:23):
So and like I said, his confession to his friends
was everything.

Speaker 4 (01:25:31):
He kind of in a way screwed himself over with
that because he felt comfortable with them. Then his confession
he can't later claim was made under dress.

Speaker 2 (01:25:39):
Well he does, but just too.

Speaker 4 (01:25:40):
But I mean he chose them because he felt comfortable
with them. So no, there was no dress here.

Speaker 2 (01:25:45):
Yeah, it comes it winds up killing his defense. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:25:51):
He contradicted himself at like so many different terms on
so many different things that like, eventually you just don't
believe him anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:25:57):
But I mean, he was in prison before ten years,
and he loved to do interviews and all this kind
of stuff, right, So he so that's what people remember
is him denying everything. Oh yeah, but in the beginning
he owned up to it all. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:26:15):
He and again he drew a diagram where to find
these boys.

Speaker 2 (01:26:21):
And what he said was that twenty seven hundred house.
He ran out and run went in the yard. He
realized that wouldn't work, so he started throwing them in
the river. Yeah, and there was five in the river. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:26:33):
Now his trial actually begins, and keep in mind all
this has happened within a short amount of time, because
he's arrested in nineteen seventy eight, late nineteen seventy eight,
and then his trial begins on February sixth of nineteen
eighty and that's when, because of his confession, arguments about
insanity began. And I actually do have a clip that

(01:26:54):
if Rick has got that one ready to go. He
was even like the interviewer even kind of compares him
to other ones like Manson, Bundy, and Dahmer, and he
becomes offended.

Speaker 3 (01:27:06):
But this, you've heard the experts say it about Jeffrey Dahmer.

Speaker 6 (01:27:11):
Casey dislikes the comparison.

Speaker 8 (01:27:14):
What do I think of Jeffrey Dahmer. I don't know
the man personally, but I'll tell you this, that's a
good example as to why insanity doesn't belong in the courtroom,
because if Jeffrey Donald doesn't meet the requirements for insanity,
then I'd hate like hell to run in the guy
that does. Beyond that, I have no comment on Jeffreydahmer
because I'm not Jeffrey Dahmer, and I would not whether

(01:27:37):
it's it's Berkowitz, whether it's Bundy, whether it's Williams, Wayne
Williams down on the Ladder or any of the others,
or Charlie Manson. See, I don't comment about other cases
for the simple fact is that I wasn't there to
feel somewhat of a kinship with something. No, I hate
that when they put me in the same club with them.

Speaker 3 (01:27:58):
That's precisely the.

Speaker 4 (01:28:02):
Like. It's amazing he is offended like this has offended
his sensibilities to be compared to other serial killers.

Speaker 2 (01:28:09):
He was like that throughout that he was angry that
they wanted to search his house after the fact, so
you said there was no reason for them to even
start looking there. I mean, the delusion from this guy
was almost I think.

Speaker 4 (01:28:22):
That delusion stems from narcissism, and we see this with
psychopaths or you know, people with antisocial personality disorder. As
it is now, we see that narcissism is like one
of the most prominent traits. Yes, absolute, But it's so
funny that like he's also saying, this is why the

(01:28:46):
insanity argument shouldn't be allowed in court. He tried to
use it.

Speaker 2 (01:28:50):
His lawyers were pushing for them.

Speaker 4 (01:28:52):
Said tried to argue that he had multiple personality disorder,
which now we just call disassociative identity disorder, and his
was quote unquote split between personalities of a contractor, a clown,
a politician, and a police officer named bad Jack. But
now he does end up pleading. He makes a full

(01:29:14):
confession and everything. But during this part of the proceedings
he pleads not guilty by reason of insanity, and he
faces now thirty three first degree murder charges and William
this name, I hate it because it kind of makes
me laugh a little bit, but the lead prosecutor is
named William Cuncle said quote, these were certainly the acts

(01:29:36):
of a man capable of premeditation, acting in his own
best interests, and under duress and recollecting the details of
his criminal activities. Meaning this man knew exactly what he
was doing it he tried to hide it for so
many years. He knew what he was doing. He knew

(01:29:56):
how to act in his own best fa interest.

Speaker 2 (01:30:00):
The prosecution and the defense both brought in a slew
of specialists trying to debunk or prove the insanity please right,
And it was like Gasey, he's not a dumb person.
He played the part the best he could, but almost
too well, I think because like five or six especialists

(01:30:25):
that studied him, they all came up with something different.
They all they all, you know, gave him a prognosis.
Is that right diagnoses diagnosis, gave him a diagnosis, but
it is all different because he was trying to play
a part for each one of them, and I think
that ultimately led to them saying that, well, he's faking it.

Speaker 4 (01:30:45):
Because he knows what he's doing.

Speaker 2 (01:30:48):
If he could have got all five of them to
come up with the same diagnosis, or four out of
the five or whatever, then maybe it was.

Speaker 4 (01:30:55):
Maybe there's something there.

Speaker 2 (01:30:57):
But the fact that it was so outrageously wildly different,
I think that actually played against him.

Speaker 4 (01:31:03):
That and the fact, like when I was doing my
notes today on this, I started thinking about Robert Trenton Chase.
You remember him, the vampire did very obviously mentally ill
what they call a disorganized killer. Oh, this man did
not try to hide anything because he didn't realize what
he was doing was wrong. He was just trying to survive.
That is the difference here. He didn't try to hide

(01:31:24):
it because he genuinely didn't think he was doing anything wrong.
He had no comprehension of this whatsoever. Gacy, on the
other hand, tried to hide everything, and he put on
this persona and everything for the public to try and
keep them off his trail from what he was doing.
This is very, very calculated. He knew exactly what he
was doing every step of the way, so there was

(01:31:46):
no way. And even then with disassociative identity disorder, the
person who suffers from it does not know they have it.
They have blackouts where they don't remember along. They call
it losing time, where they don't remember anything that happened
in this specific block of time, which is usually when
they were doing something bad. And Gasey could recollect perfectly

(01:32:09):
the details of everything that he did. Oh yeah, but
it was blaming it on different personalities and they're like,
that's that's not how we understand this disease works.

Speaker 2 (01:32:18):
Later on, there's some videos where they giving photos of
his victims and he can remember names and everything did
to them. Yeah, so yeah, he was completely aware of
what he was doing.

Speaker 4 (01:32:30):
He was fully in control of his faculties. The man.
He may be mentally ill, but it's not with disassociative
identity disorder at all. He still whatever his condition is,
I would argue that it would be antisocial personality disorder
with psychotic tendencies.

Speaker 2 (01:32:45):
Touch on that twenty two list, just real quick and
real basic. Quite the twenty two Yeah, that.

Speaker 4 (01:32:50):
Was again, that was doctor Michael Stone who he's an MD.
He's a psychologist and a psychoanalyst, and he created a
twenty two point ranking scale of evil and I went over, like,
his definition is working definition of evil and everything earlier.
But like number one is the least or not evil
at all, which is justifiable homicide, and then zero point

(01:33:12):
twenty two is the worst of the worst, where this
is torture and murders, and it can either have a
sexual component or not. Gacy's had a sexual component, but
he ranked at a number twenty two on this scale.

Speaker 2 (01:33:26):
Yeah, I don't know why twenty two is a number.

Speaker 4 (01:33:29):
He goes through that in the book. So I highly
recommend the book for anybody that's curious about this.

Speaker 2 (01:33:34):
You don't even have to get the whole book. You
can look it up and it breaks down just that
specific thing.

Speaker 4 (01:33:38):
The book is just called The Anatomy of Evil.

Speaker 2 (01:33:41):
Yeah, so you can look at up and you can
get the twenty two point list. It will break down
exactly what each one is without having read the whole book.
But you should read the whole book if you interest it,
because it's a great is pretty much.

Speaker 4 (01:33:52):
Like I said, it's very analytical and very clinical in
its language, but it's absolutely fascinating.

Speaker 2 (01:33:58):
But for each level you get a certain point value,
it gets pointed to you, and Gaysey was the only
one that reached all twenty two.

Speaker 4 (01:34:08):
Specifically mentions Gasey in his book, saying, this is one
of the first ones, like David Parker, Ray didn't even
rank at twenty two. But it's mainly for different criteria.
He ranked very very high or twenty one.

Speaker 2 (01:34:20):
You look at Edmund Kemper, you look at Bundy. Yeah,
all of them. No one else was at twenty two.
Now none of them were twenty two. Gaysey is at
the top of that.

Speaker 4 (01:34:33):
That was mainly because of the prolonged torture that he implemented, too,
because that was part of it for.

Speaker 2 (01:34:38):
Him, exactly. He met the criteria all the way to
the top. Yeah, that's why. That's why he's mean by
a twenty two point Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:34:45):
So but I definitely do recommend that book. It's it's
absolutely fascinating if you're into that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:34:52):
But yeah, he while in prison, Gaysey's attitude was so
what's the right word. I mean, it's almost self righteous.

Speaker 4 (01:35:03):
I mean he was, Yeah, that's that narcissism coming to play, like,
how dare you target me?

Speaker 2 (01:35:09):
Yeah, because he was even saying in his defense and
he exhausted every possible Yeah, I mean, it was insane.
But he started saying that he didn't kill anyone. Yeah,
that they was. He went from that to saying, well,

(01:35:30):
there was other people involved. He said that his house
is a hub for all the people that he worked,
that worked for him, so that any of them could
come in and planted those bodies.

Speaker 4 (01:35:40):
Yeah, twenty seven times.

Speaker 2 (01:35:42):
Yeah, So, I mean he was saying anything and everything,
basically trying to say that he was but the.

Speaker 4 (01:35:51):
Kitchen sink at them, and he probably even through the
kitchen sink at one point.

Speaker 2 (01:35:54):
Well, just remember he was blaming his victims. Yeah, he
was blaming the victims family because they didn't care enough
to protect them. Yeah, he was blaming everyone but himself.
But remember he openly admitted and confessed to everything in
the beginning, and then he.

Speaker 4 (01:36:14):
Felt comfortable with and safe with. So he was not
under the best when he made that confession.

Speaker 2 (01:36:18):
Even in his drunken stupors, he was running around town.

Speaker 4 (01:36:21):
They didn't even know the full scope of what they
would find under that house, but he was naming names
to no end. Yeah, Okay, we gotta fast forward. We're
going this is now March twelfth of nineteen eighty, After
about two to maybe three hours of deliberation.

Speaker 2 (01:36:38):
Oh, this is the trial date.

Speaker 4 (01:36:40):
Well, this is the conviction date. If the trial date
started February six, we're now at March twelve night, so
about two to possibly three hours of deliberation.

Speaker 2 (01:36:51):
Well, yeah, you saw two hours. I saw what I saw.

Speaker 4 (01:36:54):
Under two hours I saw.

Speaker 2 (01:36:55):
I want to say three hours.

Speaker 4 (01:36:56):
We're going two to three hours, just to be on
safe side. There, he is found guilty on all thirty
three murder charges, every single one of them. He is
thence in prison at the Menard Correctional Center in Chester
for fourteen years. Now, like we were saying, he later
has denied being guilty. He even had a nine hundred

(01:37:17):
number set up with a twelve minute recorded statement declaring
his innocence, which I kind of have that nine hundred
Probably you can't find that nine hundred number. It's probably
not active. That was all in nineteen eighty. Again, he's
in there for like fourteen years. October of nineteen ninety three.

(01:37:38):
We fast forward an now we're in the nineties.

Speaker 2 (01:37:40):
Well, while he was in prison, this when he took
up painting. Yeah, you mention that.

Speaker 4 (01:37:46):
I say, we are getting close and I still need
to do our everybody knows like he did do paintings
and those paintings, even just a print of the painting,
not the painting itself, still will run you thousands of
dollars even today.

Speaker 2 (01:38:02):
Yeah, And he was actually sued while in prison because
he was making money off the paintings because people were
buying them and they didn't People didn't like that, so
they were trying to say they didn't.

Speaker 4 (01:38:13):
Want and I understand that I wouldn't want him profiting
off the murders.

Speaker 2 (01:38:16):
Either, right, Well, yeah, Gusse, he's profiting off is yeah,
but yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:38:25):
October of ninety three, the Supreme Court now has refused
to hear his final appeal, and his execution date is
set for May tenth of nineteen ninety four at the
Stateville Correctional Center in Crest Hill, Illinois. His last words
were rumored to be kissed my ass, but the prosecutor
who tried the case and actually attended the execution said

(01:38:45):
the case he did not speak in his final moments.

Speaker 2 (01:38:48):
That's the thing is that when giving the opportunity for
a final statement, at the moment, he didn't say anything.
His last words previous to that was kiss my ass.

Speaker 4 (01:39:00):
Yeah, and then he also said something about you know,
the state is murdering me. I mean he did have
some statements. Yeah, in his final moments, he did not
actually have any quote unquote last words.

Speaker 2 (01:39:11):
Yeah. His final words were kissed my ass, basically to
answer questions that they was given. But he didn't have
the final statement like you see in movies and stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:39:22):
Do you have in the chair when they lead, do
you have any last words?

Speaker 2 (01:39:25):
He didn have nothing to say that but his final
words previously.

Speaker 4 (01:39:31):
Just the last words he said to anybody in general.

Speaker 2 (01:39:34):
Yeah, he was executed lethal injection, and he was pronounced
dead at twelve fifty eight am. Yeah, so you have
some trivia, have.

Speaker 4 (01:39:49):
Some interesting trivia about this execution date. His execution date
May tenth, nineteen ninety four. That specific date, month, day, year,
that is the same exact day that Jeffrey Dahmer got
baptized in prison, and there was an eclipse.

Speaker 2 (01:40:06):
That day, so there was an a clipse first time.
And then Jeffrey Dahmer got saved on the same day
that Gaysey was killed. Yeah, that is pretty neat. I
don't know that it's comforting that you know, I know.

Speaker 4 (01:40:24):
Entirely too much that I probably should not know.

Speaker 2 (01:40:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:40:26):
Wait, no rational or normal person should know this kind
of stuff you have.

Speaker 2 (01:40:30):
I wish we had a camera on because you have
a T shirt with the Yes.

Speaker 4 (01:40:34):
I actually do have the T shirt that was made
for Gaysey's execution. I have the same one made for
ted Bunnies.

Speaker 2 (01:40:39):
Yeah. That's the thing. Is like, while this trial was
going on and they were doing the excavation of the
house and the grounds, the neighborhood would come out and watch, right,
and of course the reporters and the scuttle butt at
the area and people talking.

Speaker 4 (01:40:55):
I was saying, all the people outside the prison and everything.

Speaker 1 (01:41:08):
And we lost the bumstocks for a minute. I would
like to point out, while we're reading for them to
come back, we now have her on record can when
you need it, indicating that she has neither seen nor normal.
So in case you ever need it, we have that archives.

Speaker 2 (01:41:21):
Now got you right back, now.

Speaker 4 (01:41:25):
Widely known that I'm not really normal, and I don't
want to be normal, because there's nothing fun about being normal. Right,
Your life is much more interesting that I'm not normal. Yeah,
or terrifying, however you want to look at it.

Speaker 2 (01:41:38):
All I'll say is I sleep better on the road sometimes.
So uh. Because of this hugely popular movement, of them,
you know, excavating the house and the grounds, and this
guy being a friendly neighborhood businessman turned monster. Uh, it

(01:42:01):
caused a lot of emotions to come out that.

Speaker 4 (01:42:04):
And you've had Ted Bundy before this, who killed roughly
at the same number you Jeffrey Dahmer also, so the
public interest in serial killers was increasing exponentially.

Speaker 2 (01:42:16):
Well, they were in Illinois there they had the death
penalty was still active at this time, obviously, Yeah, and uh,
it wasn't televised or anything, but they were still.

Speaker 4 (01:42:27):
You still have news recruits.

Speaker 2 (01:42:28):
They were still crews there unseen live while all this
was going on. Right, of course they weren't filming it,
but still they were there. They couldn't film the actual death.

Speaker 4 (01:42:39):
They were actually they're outside the gates of the prison
and everything where all the protests either for or against
the death penalty were all happening.

Speaker 2 (01:42:47):
And outside that.

Speaker 4 (01:42:48):
Quarters or beaters of.

Speaker 2 (01:42:49):
Gase, even outside that courthouse. People had printed up these
T shirts, uh that had him as Pogo on it. Yes,
and do you remember what it says, You've got one clown,
No tears for the clown. She has one of the
T shirts.

Speaker 4 (01:43:04):
I'll take a picture of it.

Speaker 2 (01:43:07):
And they said that they were lined up in either
direction down the blocks for over a mile, people like
a parade. Okay, remember this is twelve eighty eight am.
This is you know, one o'clock in the morning, and
they're on both sides of the road over a mile
in each direction, going to and from the courthouse, chanting,
carrying signs, wearing these shirts. They had a bonfire of

(01:43:32):
prints of his photos and his paintings that they were
burning in the streets. They had people dressed up in
clown outfits and stuff running up and down. I mean,
they were celebrating this death like it was a parade,
like Macy's Day parade. You know, it was a huge event.

Speaker 4 (01:43:51):
Say, I don't know if I'd be someone who would
celebrate the death of another human being, but there are
some people I could probably make an exception for. Yeah,
but I'll have an answer to that with God. But
that's between me and him.

Speaker 2 (01:44:02):
So that's what I'm saying is that this wasn't just like, oh,
we caught some you know, another execution. This had touched
the lives of all these people to the point that
they were making it aspectively.

Speaker 4 (01:44:14):
Yeah, Like I said, keep in mind, Ted Bundy and
Jeffrey Dahmer actually predated Gaycy's crimes or you know, we're
probably going on about the same time for some of them.
So the public interest in these types of murderers was
growing increasingly. Like it's just it is a fascinating topic

(01:44:36):
because I think there are so many people like me
that the whole reason they're I can't speak for them.
The whole reason I'm fascinated by this is because I
I just I need to make sense of it in
my mind. I just I need to know how one
human being can do such horrific things to another human being.

(01:44:58):
I need an answer for that.

Speaker 2 (01:45:00):
Well, that's the way we look at it. And like
I said, they were Gaysey wasn't the only one that
that people made shirts up for and celebrated.

Speaker 4 (01:45:07):
Yeah, Like I said, I've got one for that was
made for Bundy's exit.

Speaker 2 (01:45:10):
You got one for from Bundy's execution too. So, I mean,
but Gasey kind of broke the mold when it comes
to what a monster looks like Dahmer and Bundy did
to an extent because Bundy was a really good looking guy.

Speaker 4 (01:45:26):
He was, like you get the flip side of kind
of that coin too, because he was like prominent and
like Republican politics and everything.

Speaker 2 (01:45:34):
Back to the level Gaysey was, but he was with
the Democrats. Yeah. Well, like I said, Bundy wasn't to
the level that Gaysey was, but he.

Speaker 4 (01:45:41):
Still was a registered Republican. He did do volunteer work
in politics.

Speaker 2 (01:45:45):
And stuff like that. It's he the one that done
the call.

Speaker 4 (01:45:47):
The suicide price assaultline was Bundy.

Speaker 2 (01:45:50):
Bundy. So that is actually pred need comparison between Gaysey
and Bundy. But when people talk about Bundy and Dahmer,
they always come back with something was wrong with and
you could tell that they was quiet. They were charming.

Speaker 4 (01:46:07):
Especially he was more withdrawn like he didn't really he
was very introverted. He Gaysey obviously an extrovert.

Speaker 2 (01:46:16):
That's what I'm saying is that Dohmer and Bundy they were, uh,
they were I'm not gonna say dom let's go to
sick with Bundy. Bundy was an extrovert to a point,
but people always still said there was something a little off.
Good looking guy active in the community, yes, but still.

Speaker 4 (01:46:35):
A little to himself. Was very private.

Speaker 2 (01:46:38):
But now Gaysey, on the other hand, he was a
pillar of the community, people loved this man.

Speaker 4 (01:46:45):
Parties were like just around the community where there would
be four hundred plus attendees. You know, I don't like that.
I consider myself almost an extrovert.

Speaker 2 (01:46:55):
Way that is a community barbecue. You the size of
the football games we'd go through on Friday nights.

Speaker 4 (01:47:02):
Yeah, that's ridiculous to me. Like, I don't want to
I would never want to throw a party like that.

Speaker 2 (01:47:08):
And like I said, he had he the neighbors loved him.
He took care of the elderly neighbors in his in
his area. He was a decent, outstanding, lovable good man
in the eyes of so many people in this community,
and then had no idea.

Speaker 4 (01:47:26):
What was actually going on onneath the surface.

Speaker 2 (01:47:28):
He brought tears tears of joy to children with his
clowns and stuff like especially in.

Speaker 4 (01:47:35):
The hospital, like when they were in like cancer wards
and stuff. He would do this. And why would you, Like,
everybody listening needs to put yourself in the in these shoes,
Like somebody told you something like that about a person
you respected that is doing all this great work in
the community, you wouldn't believe him either.

Speaker 2 (01:47:54):
No, you'd be just a shock, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:47:58):
And that probably was the overwhel feeling when all of
this evidence came out. They were just probably completely floored
by this.

Speaker 2 (01:48:06):
So when those emotions get flipped, you can I can,
That's what I'm saying. I can see when it becomes Expectedum.

Speaker 4 (01:48:12):
Yeah, he betrayed their trust in a way like I mean,
not only that sounds so trivial compared to what he did.

Speaker 2 (01:48:20):
Yeah, it's for instance, you betrayed your trust. You look
at this guy and you think, if I can't trust Johnny.

Speaker 4 (01:48:27):
Who can I trust?

Speaker 2 (01:48:28):
You know, because this guy was again I can't say
it enough loved, not locked loved. Yeah, the people did.

Speaker 4 (01:48:39):
Yeah, so nobody would ever think that this man had
such a dark secret.

Speaker 2 (01:48:43):
Absolutely not that right. There is why I want to
go find all the locations that Bob Ross ever painted
and start looking for bodies.

Speaker 4 (01:48:55):
That would be amazing. But I also don't want you
to like ruined Bob Ross.

Speaker 1 (01:48:58):
There's a reason man called them happy little accidents.

Speaker 2 (01:49:01):
I'm just we're gonna put it. We're gonna put a
tree right here over this body. But he always he
did said the body part. But anyways, you don't Bob
Ross for me, I can dress. Go ahead, we got
ten minutes. So if you want to move into the
In Memoriam Park, we go ahead and do that if

(01:49:23):
you want to.

Speaker 4 (01:49:24):
Yeah, I don't think we really have anything else to
say on this case.

Speaker 2 (01:49:27):
Oh we can talk about some other parts of it
if you want to continue.

Speaker 4 (01:49:31):
To Yeah, but I get going and well, let's go
do an.

Speaker 2 (01:49:35):
In Memoriam part because I know coming up behind us
is just physician and we want to make sure that
we give them all the time they deserve because I
guarantee it's gonna be a good show again as all.

Speaker 4 (01:49:46):
Oh absolutely, they're so much fun.

Speaker 2 (01:49:48):
But we're gonna do the Like I said at the
beginning of the show, we want to make sure that
the victims are remembered, and so producer Rick can just
put up the there.

Speaker 4 (01:50:02):
Those are thirty three photos. There are still some unnamed victims,
so we don't have photos for them, but there are
some if you look closely, some like police artists renderings.

Speaker 2 (01:50:12):
Of what they would have looked like.

Speaker 4 (01:50:14):
But we want to remember the lives lost during this
tragic and violent period in our history. Behind those grim
headlines that we were talking about were actual real people.
They were sons, brothers, friends, They each had their own
dreams and stories and futures, all of which were brutally
and unjustly stolen from them. So, as always here on

(01:50:35):
our show front for Forensics, we want to honor their
names and their memory. So we have Timothy Jack McCoy
was sixteen years old, Jonathan Budkovich was seventeen, Darryl Sampson
eighteen years old, Randall Reffitt fifteen years old, Samuel Stapleton
fourteen years old, Michael Bonan or bonnan if I butcher names,

(01:51:00):
I'm sorry, y'all. He was seventeen. William Carroll sixteen years old,
Jimmy Hackinson sixteen years old, Rick Johnston seventeen years old,
Kenneth Parker sixteen, Michael Marino fourteen years old, William Bundy

(01:51:21):
was nineteen, Gregory Godsick seventeen years old, John Sizzick nineteen
years old, John Prestige twenty years old, Matthew Bowman nineteen,
Robert Gilroy eighteen, John Mowry nineteen years old, Russell Nelson

(01:51:43):
twenty one years old, Robert Wench sixteen years old, Tommy
Bowling twenty years old, David Tasma nineteen years old, William
Kindred nineteen years old, Timothy oh Frank Landingen nineteen years old,

(01:52:06):
James Mazara twenty one years old, and Robert Peaste was
fifteen years old. And despite exhaustive efforts, six victims still
remain unidentified to this day. Their names may be lost
to time, but their lives mattered. So we remember them
to in hope and with dignity, and to any families

(01:52:26):
that may or may not ever hear this one day
and loved ones of these victims, your pain and your
loss is not forgotten, and your resilience is a testimony
to the enduring power of remembrance. May the lives lost
inspire us all to advocate for justice, protect the vulnerable,
and is sure that no one has ever forgotten.

Speaker 2 (01:52:50):
Yet. That's one thing we strive to do here and
to always do here, is if we could ever get
the names of the killers to be forgotten, that's the goal,
and then focus on the victims, because that's who should
be remembered.

Speaker 4 (01:53:06):
Yeah, that's why I like to end the show with
their names on. Want their names and their faces to
be the last thing y'all see and hear from us.

Speaker 2 (01:53:14):
Yeah, Well, tonight we're gonna talk a little bit more
about them because earlier we mentioned that class ring and
that was that John Sizzek.

Speaker 4 (01:53:26):
That was him.

Speaker 2 (01:53:26):
Yeah, yeah, that was his class ring. And I didn't
realize that two of the victims were fourteen.

Speaker 4 (01:53:33):
Yeah, they were very young.

Speaker 2 (01:53:34):
Yeah, I knew that they were sixteen to nineteen, and
that one fifteen year old. I didn't realize this is
fourteen year.

Speaker 4 (01:53:40):
Olds and there too, which for us as parents, that's
incredibly rough to think about.

Speaker 2 (01:53:47):
Yeah, for sure. But yeah, there's no way to wrap
your mind around or justify any of these things. We
like to kind of focus and see, we can understand
made this person this way, some of the psychological reasoning.
I guess why they would, what creates a monster in

(01:54:10):
a way, but just but trying to justify any of it,
we never will do.

Speaker 4 (01:54:15):
No, there is no justification.

Speaker 2 (01:54:17):
I want to make sure that if it does come
with that answer, that if it does come across that way, ever,
it's not our intent. We want very clear, right, we're
not trying to even if I can understand, and in
this case I can't, But even if I can understand
why someone might do what they've done, it's still not
a justification.

Speaker 4 (01:54:38):
Yeah, I mean I can looking at his childhood. Like
we discussed earlier, I can kind of see how he
could become what he did, but it doesn't make it okay.

Speaker 2 (01:54:47):
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:54:48):
He was fully aware of what he was doing. He
knew it was wrong. It was his choice to do
it anyway, and there's no justifying that right.

Speaker 2 (01:54:56):
And no matter how long ago these killings happened.

Speaker 4 (01:55:03):
Those people are still loved and they're still missed.

Speaker 2 (01:55:06):
Yeah, these like everyone that knew these people, their lives
were touched and changed in horrific ways and forever and forever.
So there's no statute of limitations on murder. There should
be no statute of limitations on remembrances. Well, and honoring those.

Speaker 4 (01:55:24):
Yeah, we definitely, Like I said, we just we want
to honor the victims. We want them to be what
we end the show on, the last thing. The last
names that we get to say are the ones that matter.

Speaker 2 (01:55:39):
And hopefully with the continuing upgrades with scientific I guess.

Speaker 4 (01:55:47):
Any kind of forensic technology.

Speaker 2 (01:55:49):
Technology, maybe they can come up with those last six I.

Speaker 4 (01:55:52):
Hope, So maybe we'll be able to restore their names
to them and give them the dignity they deserve.

Speaker 2 (01:55:58):
Some sort of closure. Yeah, but I know we've still
got a few minutes left. If there's any I know
in the chat, there's been some chatter going around. We
talked about the number twenty two. Lest already we got
some that.

Speaker 4 (01:56:15):
Let's say, I can mention the books. There is the
book that I referenced a few times, Buried Dreams, Uh,
the Anatomy of Evil by Doctor Stone, the Last Victim
by Jason Moss. I highly recommend all three of those books.

Speaker 2 (01:56:28):
Yep, And we got one here. Alan Ray had said,
So he's a Democrat, he said earlier, and I said, yeah,
he actually was. But just like you mentioned Bundy, there's
no we try not to get political, obviously, but I
just saw that.

Speaker 4 (01:56:48):
But because he was, they were both so active in
those political circles that we had mentioned.

Speaker 2 (01:56:53):
As part of their yeah, part of who they are.

Speaker 4 (01:56:55):
Like we said, the facts of the cases matter, so
we're not going to shy away from them. And if, like,
even if it is a Republican or a Democrat or something,
we're gonna tell you.

Speaker 2 (01:57:04):
Oh yeah. And even if I do guest on a
current events type political show, I'm just gonna the truth matters.
I don't care who's in power. I don't care if
they Republican or Democrat or independent. I call it like
it is. I call it like it is on our
show too, with these murderers monsters.

Speaker 4 (01:57:23):
Yeah, this one just happened to be in Democrat circles system.

Speaker 2 (01:57:28):
But as far as that goes, y'all don't have to
worry too much about my point of view because I'm
really only found on as bunks dot ken on X,
So if you don't want to hear from me, then
you ain't got to look at my stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:57:42):
Yeah, I'm bump stout Barbie. We both run the low page,
which is FP Underscore Forensics, So if you want to
talk to either one of us, like, either one of
us just runs that page.

Speaker 2 (01:57:53):
So yep, and we go live here. We try to
every week every Saturday, seven to nine PE Central time,
God's time. And but the past few weeks we've had
some storm difficulties. Is that time of year, you know, so,
but we try to hit every Saturday if we can.

(01:58:14):
Our bread and butter is serial killers and true crime.
We do here and there take some side roads, some
back roads, but normally we're firmly on our porch talking
about what we enjoy talking about and.

Speaker 4 (01:58:30):
It finally stops scaring my husband enough that he can
talk to me about stuff like this.

Speaker 2 (01:58:35):
But yeah, we love having y'all come join us and
pulling up a chair with us and hanging out. But again,
I'm bump Stock Ken.

Speaker 4 (01:58:44):
She is pump Stock Barbie.

Speaker 2 (01:58:46):
And this is front Ports Fringe. Its on X. You
can find us here live. You can follow us on
the free Sprinker app, which is an easy download. It's
got a great playback, it's it's easy to use. It
don't cost anything. It's a quick download and anywhere else
you basically get your podcasts. We always are usually the

(01:59:08):
next day available. Yeah, and Rick does a great job
getting all that set up. And since I mentioned Rick,
if you want to say hello to everybody and introduce Jucks,
which is coming up, please go ahead.

Speaker 1 (01:59:20):
Yep. Coming up next will be myself and Ordinance j
Packard on our supposed to be every two weeks for
it into the weird, the unusual, the unexplainable. But again
whether it's he's a round here, so we get it
done when we can. Tonight's going to be time travel,
so hang out for that one that'll be coming up
here in just a couple of minutes right here on
KLOR Radio.

Speaker 2 (01:59:38):
Hey, guys, I listened to that show yesterday. It's a
great one time travel. You get it, Yes, I get it.

Speaker 4 (01:59:46):
Explain that's why it's funny y'all trying to end up
on one of our episodes like he's about to.

Speaker 2 (01:59:52):
Yeah, let's see y'all next time. Y'all stay for Jucks.
It's a good show.

Speaker 1 (01:59:56):
Jen's gonna big at shopping Linz.

Speaker 2 (02:00:01):
Thanks, y'all.

Speaker 4 (02:00:08):
I listen to a lot of true crime. I'd listened
to it that night. I like the girl talk and
it makes me feel all right. I like scary stories
in the morning, and I like them that night. I
like my girl talk bribes. They made me feel just fry.

(02:00:32):
I listened to a lot of true crime.