FPF 01-11-25 The One About The Stanford Prison Experiment

Episode Transcript

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Listen to a lot of True Cry.

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The Morday.

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It was good month. Otherwise, Christmas was good, New year's
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So you were sick the day you were sick about
Christmas Eve? I got it the day after Christmas.

Speaker 12 (05:47):
Yeah, I got sick on Christmas Eve and then we
was sick that whole week.

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Yeah, you pick it up from church and then decided
to bring it home.

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So yeah, well it was Christmas time, you know, had
to get a gift that kept giving. Luckily, the tiny
tyrant she stayed healthy throughout all of it, and so
that's really can't complain other than yeah, you know, it
is what it is. So we're glad to be back
and glad y'all are joining us. So kicking off the

(06:15):
year twenty twenty five, this will be I guess the
first episode of twenty twenty five for us. Yeah, yeah,
for front Ports Forensics, and we're going to touch on
one that I think if you're a fan of this
show and you're familiar with what we do, and you
and you follow us at all, I think you would

(06:38):
take interest in what we do. So I'm confident you'll
know what we're talking about today, which is a Stanford
prison experiment.

Speaker 4 (06:47):
Yeah, a lot of people, I mean, we do have
a lot of older listeners, but there have been so
many documentaries and movies done about this and even other
psychological studies that we're done on this particular topic. And
it was between August fifteenth and August twenty first in

(07:07):
nineteen seventy one, and it was conducted by the Sanford
psychology professor Phillip Zimbardo, and his reasoning was to examine
how situational variables can affect people's behaviors and reactions in
a simulated prison environment.

Speaker 12 (07:27):
Yeah, that's how he sold it, and that's how he
presented it, and even to this day, that's how he
that's how he justifies what it was. But like I said,
there's even if you're you've read up on it or
you've followed it or you're familiar with it, multiple documentaries
about it. There's movies. I know, one German made movie

(07:49):
and there's one American made movie about it. I've only
seen the American one, but it was pretty good, very
much hollywoodized, but still it still.

Speaker 4 (07:58):
Stayed pretty in line with what happened, I mean for
the most part.

Speaker 12 (08:03):
Yeah, it turns out that it's scripted, just like Natural
Experiment was. So pretty much. Yeah, but there is a
documentary we watched on Disney Plus. But it is a
national geographic yeah, national geographic documentary called the Stanford Prison Experiment,
Unlocking the Truth. I think it came out this year

(08:26):
or between twenty four.

Speaker 4 (08:28):
Let's say, I can't remember when it came out, but
it actually it was a documentary and they actually brought
in some of the men who were assigned as guards
and then some who were assigned as the prisoners.

Speaker 12 (08:40):
It's the first documentary of its size that actually interviewed
the participants.

Speaker 4 (08:46):
Other than right, Zimbardo, there were a few others like
throughout the years that were reached out to by you know,
news outlets or whoever, and they have done it there.
We'll get into one one of the guards that went
by the nickname of John Wayne, because he was interviewed

(09:08):
quite a lot over the years. He's been very very
open about it.

Speaker 12 (09:12):
Yeah, he was one of even into older documentaries and stuff.
They point him out a lot to one of the
guards for his sadistic behavior and and we'll.

Speaker 4 (09:22):
Get into kind of why he was like that too.
But this experiment was set to last for two whole
weeks but was terminated after just six days, and it
was due to the extreme pathological behaviors on the behalf
of both the men assigned as prisoners and the ones
assigned as guards. The guards became cruel and sadistic, while

(09:47):
the ones who were assigned as prisoners became depressed and hopeless.
And I mean we even had one I guess, yeah,
very very just timid.

Speaker 12 (09:59):
Yeah, with him almost the the Angelican polot there. He
asked the questions as was Zimbardo's. Basically his work partially
off of the work of Stanley Milgrim's experiment, and he.

Speaker 4 (10:13):
Actually had somebody else ask us about him too, So
we're gonna touch on that one, probably in a different episode.

Speaker 12 (10:19):
But yeah, well we'll cover Milgrim's experiment too, because it's
I think a naturally more scientifically just study, a little
more ethical on a little more yeah where, But yes,
Zimbardo did. Milgrim's study was before, of course, so it
kind of set the groundwork for these human nature type experiments.

(10:44):
So Zimbardo did borrow a lot of his philosophy, is
you know, off of that study. That was one of
one of the main leading things that got him thinking
about it. Uh, Zimbardo's real or maybe his biggest influence

(11:05):
on it was Now, remember this is nineteen seventy one,
So Vietnam War going on, the Hippie movement, all that
huge anti war, huge anti establishment culture had to you know,
had the man was keeping everybody down. So Zimbardo a

(11:27):
bit a big part of his influence. He had an
agenda to prove that prisons just.

Speaker 4 (11:36):
Being in prison, the whole dynamic there between guards and prisoners.

Speaker 12 (11:41):
Well, he was always always, I mean he's already to
the point that he wanted prisons to be the prisons
was the problem, right, not the not the prisoners in it.
It was the prison guard, the prison is self, the
whole establishment, whole idea in prisonment was the cause of it,

(12:02):
and that prisons were evil places and prisons actually made
people evil. Not that evil people were in prison, but
the prison actually created the evil.

Speaker 4 (12:12):
Yeah, this this experiment was trying to prove that, like
I guess human nature or disposition was put it odds
with the situation that you're placed in, like whether you're
in a position of authority or you have to submit
to that authority, it's going to change how you I

(12:34):
think would normally react to something like that. So this
was actually described as the kind of Lord of the
flies experiment but set in a cyclab and everybody I
think is familiar with Lord of the Flies, like you
had Piggy and you know, they had the shell and

(12:55):
everything that you were allowed to talk and it becomes
very very brutal, very quickly, right, and this lyricent but in.

Speaker 12 (13:03):
That experiment, yeah, he and I said that also ties
in with some of the The Lorder flies is just
another form of human.

Speaker 4 (13:14):
That one was more of a fictional story about what
that author saw as natural, like just human nature. We
would automatically kind of devolve into that kind of barbaric.

Speaker 12 (13:28):
At exactly a fictional book. But I will say it's
it's a it's a study of human nature too in
a fictional setting, because if you look at it, not
just this uh Stanford prison experiment, the Lorder flies, of
all these other ones, human nature is considered to be given.

(13:52):
The sinful nature of humans will send people down that path.
So there he is a lot of psychological studies about it,
but and good reason, because people are trying to understand
why humans left it on devices. You normally does go
that route. This Zimbardo though he kind of manipulated it

(14:17):
in my opinion too far, which kind of makes a
bad science.

Speaker 4 (14:20):
Yeah, and I think this is a good time to
kind of go into our cut one because Bombardo explained
in his own words that this environment that he created
was designed to actually encourage the behaviors of the guards,
and he says, he kind of justifies us later, well,
only half the guards became like tyrannical and cruel and everything.

(14:43):
But this is the longest clip we're going to play.
But this is actually Phillip Zimbardo himself during the actual
like guard orientation and explaining to them how this how
he expects us to go.

Speaker 13 (14:56):
Yeah, well let me let me start officially then to
uh now that we finish the form to sign of
things and we begun getting paid.

Speaker 11 (15:08):
Uh.

Speaker 14 (15:09):
My name is Philisimbardo, and I'm a professor of psychology.

Speaker 15 (15:11):
Here I got interested in both prisons and the way
in which certain situations in most people behaved.

Speaker 11 (15:23):
We got interested in prison for a number of reasons.

Speaker 16 (15:25):
I did work on the techniques that the police use
to get confessions, uh, psychological.

Speaker 11 (15:31):
Techniques that they can't use third degree, And.

Speaker 14 (15:34):
Then got involved with some individual prisoners who uh at
least one of whom has been sentenced to death and
it's clear.

Speaker 11 (15:41):
To me that you know, his confession was coerced and
that that was the only evidence they had.

Speaker 13 (15:47):
So I had a personal interest in in prison and
also a.

Speaker 10 (15:51):
The academic one is what is the ways in which
police use psychology to further their own end?

Speaker 4 (15:58):
Uh.

Speaker 11 (15:59):
During the course of my the term last year, some.

Speaker 15 (16:03):
Students align interested in prisons and decided to uh try
to set up in prison. Dave Jackie was gonna be
the warden in the study, was the one in charge
of that.

Speaker 11 (16:14):
In fact, he set out the prison over weekend and
he'll describe what happened. Nothing as labor as this, but
some interesting things.

Speaker 17 (16:21):
Came out of it.

Speaker 16 (16:23):
In the course of that, we met an ex convict,
a guy named Carlo Prescott's I've been serving sixteen years
in prison.

Speaker 11 (16:31):
It's just out of recently, and he taught a course
here the summer in a psychology of imprisonment, and you
may have heard about.

Speaker 16 (16:38):
Well through that course we got in he got interested
in what does what does a prison mean?

Speaker 11 (16:41):
What does it do to the prisoners, what are all
the things that go to creating a prison? Setting up
in prison? And Prescott made us aware.

Speaker 12 (16:50):
Of the fact that the prison is.

Speaker 14 (16:52):
Just a physical metaphor for for the loss of freedom
that all of us feel in different ways because of
our races of a sect us thinking, because of being
good in the plants and musn't being self conscious.

Speaker 10 (17:04):
So essentially, we're setting up a physical prison here to
study what that does.

Speaker 11 (17:09):
And those are some of the variables that we've discovered.

Speaker 14 (17:14):
A current prison, those are some of the psychological variables,
and we want to recreate in our prison that psychological environment.

Speaker 11 (17:23):
There are some things which obviously we can't do, and
is people know that they're gonna be there.

Speaker 16 (17:28):
Only up to two weeks out of maximum and very
often prison this long period of time.

Speaker 13 (17:34):
When California prison have indeterminate sentence, you can be put
in for a year to life or you know, five
to life, one to thirty, so they.

Speaker 11 (17:40):
Know it's gonna end up in two weeks. They also
know there are some limits to what we can do.

Speaker 10 (17:44):
There's in real prisons there are you know, gang rapes
and guys get beaten.

Speaker 14 (17:48):
Up and the electra shot and sometimes even get killed,
and they know that there.

Speaker 11 (17:52):
Are upper limits to what we can do. Nevertheless, we
can create boredom, We can create a sense of frustration.
We can create a sense of fear in them to
some degree.

Speaker 16 (18:01):
You can create the notion of arbitrariness, that their life
is totally controlled by us, by the system, you being Jackie,
and they'll have no privacy at all, their cells, the sleeping,
the rooms of bars on them that will be constant surveilance.

Speaker 11 (18:19):
Nothing they do will go unobserved. They have no funeral
of action.

Speaker 10 (18:23):
They can do nothing or say say nothing that we
don't permit but.

Speaker 11 (18:27):
To take away their individuality in various ways. They're gonna
be wearing uniforms. And at no time will anybody.

Speaker 12 (18:32):
Call in my name, and so we won't allow none
of you will, and.

Speaker 10 (18:36):
We won't have numbers, and the only call by numbers,
and we will insist at least that they do it
to each other.

Speaker 16 (18:42):
They want to do it privately, then that's one of
the things we'll discover.

Speaker 10 (18:45):
In general, what all this leads to is a sense
of powerlessness.

Speaker 12 (18:49):
That is, we have total power in the situation, and
they have none.

Speaker 11 (18:53):
And the question is what will they do to try.

Speaker 10 (18:55):
To gain some power, to gain some individuality, to gain
some freedom, to gain some privacy, to essentially work against us,
to regain some of what they have now the pre
moving outside and we're going to take away whatever freedom, liberty,

(19:16):
privacy they have.

Speaker 11 (19:18):
So essentially that's what we're doing. And heard and Craig
will describe the kinds of data we will be collecting.
I mean, that's the experiment. Part is that reflecting data.
Partant part is that reclecting data.

Speaker 12 (19:37):
Yeah, so when did you hear him they're talking about
that's a called day zero and it is a training
day for the twelve students that are guards. Yep.

Speaker 4 (19:51):
Then that was another thing. They had to be Stanford students.
And you know, they actually put an add the newspaper
saying they get fifteen dollars a day for two weeks,
and I mean immediately after that first day that it
was published, they got like over seventy applicants and they
chose twenty four.

Speaker 12 (20:10):
Yeah, they fifteen dollars a day in nineteen seventy one
is equivalent to one hundred and eight dollars today. So
it was good money for a student, really good money,
you know. But so they had twelve guards and twelve prisoners,
had twenty four total. They broke them up with a
flip of a coin to separate them into guards or

(20:33):
prisoners totally at random. Now they had nine working and
then they had I mean, they had nine working guards,
had nine working prisoners, and then they had three reservists
on each side. So one of the students or one

(20:54):
of the guards was sick or missed or or had
to pull out for any reason. Same thing with the
prisoners to come in. Somebody can come in. But this
was the day zero briefing with the guards on on
what was expected of them. So and seeing that clip,
it seems pretty up and up standard stuff. That's kind

(21:14):
of what you would expect from a prison guard is
what you can and can't do.

Speaker 4 (21:20):
What? But what where it goes wrong is Embardo telling
them that they're allowed to basically do anything they want
to them short of physically harming them.

Speaker 12 (21:31):
Yeah, I mean, and that's kind of that's the standard
rules for a prison guard too, based in basic.

Speaker 4 (21:37):
Terms so much.

Speaker 12 (21:39):
But back then maybe some prison guards aren't supposed to
actually you know, become physical unless they are attacked that
kind of thing. So he's laying out the guard the
rules of this and this is the that clip comes
from the archives from Stanford itself, So yeah, those are
legitimate archival.

Speaker 4 (22:02):
If anybody wants that link, I'll post it later to
my page and everything. But yes, it's Stanford Edu's page
on this particular experiment.

Speaker 12 (22:11):
And then there's several written archival things too that.

Speaker 4 (22:17):
Because of guard scripts and everything.

Speaker 12 (22:19):
Because the guards had to take notes every day on
what they were doing. So to set it up like this,
there was three cells, and each cell had three and
each cell had three of the what's it called prisoners
inside each cell. Now, the cells were bigger than a

(22:40):
normal prison cell. There's roughly the size of a bedroom,
you know, you standard like twelve by fourteen bedroom or
something like that.

Speaker 4 (22:47):
They're not huge, but I mean it could fit three
people in it.

Speaker 12 (22:51):
Yeah, I wasn't eight by eight or eight by twelve.
It was a It was a fairly.

Speaker 4 (22:55):
Sized I should make note that this all happened like
in the basement of Stanford University, in the basement of
Jordan Hall, I think it was, And we actually have
photos and all. Let Rick kind of cycle through, but
here in a minute will show that these prisoners and everything.

(23:18):
What actually happened was Lombardo got the local police involved
and it was kind of last minute for them.

Speaker 12 (23:24):
Actually, well, I was gonna talk about what we actually
got to. Day one part of it.

Speaker 4 (23:29):
This is the zero I said, Day one is the
actual arrest. Yeah, Day zero is just him Like in
that clip, he's setting this all up, like here's what
you're allowed to do, you're not allowed to do, here's
what we want you to do, which to me.

Speaker 12 (23:46):
Is the big problem. Well, the on the face of
it so far from that clip especially, I don't really
find it too disturbing about him laid out the groundwork
because in a real prison, the guards would have power
over the prisoners, so that needs a bit established up front.
But what happens, and it doesn't really show it in

(24:06):
this clips, but it comes out in interviews with the
actual guards themselves. And there's video recordings into archives as
well from Stanford, but those aren't publicly released. You have
to you have to find them.

Speaker 4 (24:22):
That's a rick actually postal link here in the live
chat too.

Speaker 12 (24:25):
For the exhibits, okay, perfect, you may be they may
be able to search through all that stuff and find some.

Speaker 4 (24:32):
There's transcripts, I mean, there's all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 12 (24:35):
So you'll find out from interviews from them that it
was above and beyond what that first clip showed they
were actually told to ramp it up, to get in
their faces, to be more extreme, more extreme for a
guard because they were saved telling the guards because we
got to make it look like a real prison, you know,

(24:57):
because prisons are terrible, and we've got to prove that.
Is actually one of the things that they were saying. Yeah,
and to me, that immediately tanks the whole thing.

Speaker 4 (25:05):
I mean, you hear Phillips Embardo talking in that introduction
about why he got into this and why he wanted
to study it was because of what he believed to
be a coerced confession of a man on death row.
I don't think he ever names that particular person or anything,
so we don't have any information on that, but that's

(25:27):
basically his entire motivation here was trying to prove that
the dynamic between the authorities and the prisoners and everything
is so one sided basically, right.

Speaker 12 (25:43):
But I's said, there's definitely an agenda from Zimbardo, and
he the way he was talking with the guards, especially,
the guards thought they were in on it as far
as they were just facilitating the experiment.

Speaker 4 (26:02):
They didn't think they were actually part.

Speaker 12 (26:04):
Of the They were facilitating the experiment on their behalf
as embardo, because they were to see.

Speaker 4 (26:10):
How prisoners would react for that agenda.

Speaker 12 (26:13):
They were all made aware that the agenda was to
prove that prisons were bad and they wanted to study
how the prisoners reacted. So the guards didn't know they
were part of experiment.

Speaker 4 (26:26):
They didn't know that they were going to be actually
studied to and their actions recorded and documented. They were
just under the impression that they were They were instructed
to do these things just to get a specific reaction
or to see how the actual like quote unquote prisoners

(26:47):
would react to these actions that they were doing. So
they're told to be you know, cruel, like unnecessarily cruel.
Just they were basically given a green had to do
whatever they wanted to do to these boys, right, and
they had no idea. That's one of the other ethical
implications of this study, because they had no idea that

(27:10):
they were actually part of the experiment themselves.

Speaker 12 (27:15):
Yeah, they had like I said, like she was saying,
they thought they were doing what they were supposed to do.
And in fact, in some of those archives you'll see
a list of the things that they were the guards
were told to do, like make them, do push ups,
pull them out at random hours of the night for

(27:37):
sleep deprivation, to dehumanize them by they took all their clothes,
including their underwear, and gave them these They were just
a picture of them wearing these smocks, just.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
A plain white smock, just with a number on it,
and they all had skull caps.

Speaker 12 (27:52):
They took away their names there, gave them numbers, They
took away their hair by giving them skull caps. Make
to imitate.

Speaker 4 (27:59):
And that's exactly another thing that Zimbardo actually says in
that introduction that we just showed. He said, we're going
to take away their individuality in various ways. You're dehumanizing
these people, you're demoralizing them, You're making them almost a
homogeneous group of just like fathless humans, you know, because

(28:22):
they're just numbers. They're not actually people, they're just prisoners.

Speaker 12 (28:26):
Yeah, and in the seventies the prison system very well
could have been more like that too, in the darker places,
for sure. So it's hard to lay all the blame
Onzimbardo as being a bad guy with bad intentions, which
I kind of leaned that way, but he was obviously
had an agenda and he used this to push that agenda,

(28:48):
which in my opinion makes it bad science, even though
it's still good to be studied and it's pretty fascinating.
With some of the things that these guys went through
and the way they reacted, it's just it's just tainted
in my opinion.

Speaker 4 (29:01):
Yeah, I mean we had well, actually I think we
can go to cut two now because there was actually
an interview.

Speaker 12 (29:08):
Well let's talk about you mentioned about him being arrested,
So let's just move to day one because I lot
the way he actually liked this part of it, because it.

Speaker 4 (29:18):
Was very real, the way he did it, because they
had the prisoner. The men assigned as prisoners had no idea.
They were just kind of basically told, Okay, well you
need to be at home on this day. Yeah, so
the local police department gets involved, and Rick has got
some of these photos. They were actually put in squad

(29:38):
cars like real life policemen, showed up to their homes
to actually physically arrest them and then they were blindfolded
at that point and taken to the.

Speaker 12 (29:50):
Jail the prison there because so what these police, real
uniformed officers showed up at their homes with a camera
crew from the local because he out with the local
news sources so they could film it as well, for
prosperity reasons and to keep the experiment faithful is kind
of what he was saying, right. But so they come

(30:13):
to their home addresses and pulled them out, not physically
pulled them out, you know, they didn't wouldn't, but they
came up.

Speaker 4 (30:20):
To the door like, hey, you're under arrest, and they
were told to make up some vague reason like drug charges.

Speaker 12 (30:26):
Mostly drug charges. But they pulled them out in the
streets in front of all their neighbors, hand and frisked
them on the side of the car, handcuffed them, cuffed
and stuff that they say, put them in the back
of the car.

Speaker 4 (30:37):
It was like a genuine arrest at this point.

Speaker 12 (30:40):
At that point they turned to sirens and lights on
and left and they didn't explain anything to the neighbors. Nothing.
It looked and acted and felt like a real or
repletely real.

Speaker 4 (30:50):
Yeah, And it never really says why they were blindfolded,
but I think it was just so that they didn't
know that they were going to Stanford Universe.

Speaker 12 (30:58):
That's exactly what it was.

Speaker 4 (31:00):
It was a basement room in Jordan Hall that they
were taken to yeats of Standford himself.

Speaker 12 (31:06):
He wanted to take any familiarity away from it. They
once they got arrested, they you know, they blindfold them
so they can't see where we're going. So the next
time they opened their eyes and can see they're in prison.

Speaker 4 (31:17):
They're already in their cell or something. They're about to
be del house like stripped down, deal OUs like you
would do.

Speaker 12 (31:23):
In a room. When they arrived, they're in the intate chamber,
which is just the room to decide. That's when they are.
They're walked in down the hallway blindfolded into the what
I just called it intate chamber in Tate room whatever,
where they blindfolders removed. They have people in guard uniforms.

(31:46):
They actually take all their anything they had in their pockets,
you know, all their belongings away from them, uh, any belts,
all that kind of stuff to their shoes at that
point and done actual had at least with them, actually
done fingerprints, legitimate fingerprints, and they.

Speaker 4 (32:03):
Had like the real delousing powder which apparently stings and burns.

Speaker 12 (32:08):
It's a spray. It was a spray for them. Yeah,
but they took and stripped them down. De last them
with the spray and it may just been lost. I
don't know what they used, but a spray, put the
soft cap on their head to assimilate baldness. Gave them
the smock with just a prison number on it, no name,

(32:29):
just a number on it.

Speaker 4 (32:30):
It was just a shapeless frock type thing. You can
see it in that photo right there. That's what they had.

Speaker 12 (32:36):
And then they also put a chain around their right ankle,
complete with a lock. It's a small link the chain
that wrapped three or four times around their ankle and
then they locked it with a padlot basically so well.

Speaker 4 (32:51):
They also actually some of the inmates were chained together.

Speaker 12 (32:55):
They would take they one day would bring them out
to the hallway sometimes.

Speaker 4 (33:00):
Day one also was really interesting because that's when I
think they were the prisoners were the bravest and they
tried to fight back against everything and everything and whatnot.

Speaker 12 (33:14):
Yeah, at this point, it's pretty interesting because everybody, you
know that everybody looked at this as a job. They
was getting paid to do this. The prisoners. Now the
guards had their Day zero training where the prisoners also
were told when they first signed up for it that
they had the freedom to leave and walk out if

(33:36):
it became.

Speaker 4 (33:37):
Too much, they could say hey I'm done, I want out.

Speaker 12 (33:39):
Yeah, that they had the freedom to leave the experiment. Well,
once they got in and detained and put into the system,
so to speak, incarcerated, they were told that the only
way they could get out was well, they told them
they couldn't get out, but the only way they could
get out was for medical reason, whether it be physical

(34:01):
or mental. So that that's the only two ways you
can leave is is medical or mental emergress. Yeah, so
they are had already changed change it on them then,
Ye again up front, they was not told about the
chain on their foot, They was not told about the

(34:22):
smock of the prison numbers. They wasn't warned of any
of that stuff.

Speaker 4 (34:26):
They were not told that they were going to be
there twenty four to seven. They were not permitted to
go home. Like, there was no break in.

Speaker 12 (34:33):
There was no phone calls, there was no once they
got put into their cells, there was no leaving contact
outside world at all. Now, the guards they were to
three shifts, three eight hour shifts, so they actually got
to go home and kind of get back with their
families and stuff, which prison guards do that right, So

(34:56):
I mean that kind of that kind of jobs.

Speaker 4 (35:00):
But that was one of the one of the unethical
things that was already happening because they told the prisoners
something different than actually happen.

Speaker 12 (35:09):
Yeah, and that's according to some of the prison the
participants interviews after the fact, is that they was told
that the plan got switched on.

Speaker 4 (35:20):
Now, in day one, this is when we see them
have a little bit of a rebellion.

Speaker 12 (35:25):
Well, in day one, they're kind of testing their limits.
The guards are kind of everybody's kind of laughing, almost
taking it lightly. At this point, the prisoners are talking back,
being rude because they know, according to the rules that
they can't be harmed, they can't be physically touched or
physically handled, they can't be any real danger. So they

(35:46):
was kind of testing their limits, running their mouths, being
smart alecs. Especially this one in particular, was and.

Speaker 4 (35:53):
There's actually one of the archive videos and everything of
some of these prisoners kind of, you know, not really
taking it seriously. They're laughing, they're joking around everything, and
you kind of see the shift then because there are
certain guards that are like you're not allowed to laugh
at us, Like you're not allowed to do this. Yeah,

(36:13):
so we see them actually start to take that bit
of control.

Speaker 12 (36:17):
There's one in particular. He they nicknamed him John Wayne
because again this was right. They're in the Vietnam War.
Everyone involved in this study, basically everyone in Stamford was
anti war, and John Wayne came out pretty famously and

(36:38):
was pro soldier, and they took it as him being
pro the war, and therefore he was the bad guy
because his pro war. So everything John Wayne took on
the identity of being the man to these guys, so
therefore he was the symbol of everything that they hated.

Speaker 4 (36:59):
He also used the movie Cool Hand Luke as his
like inspiration.

Speaker 12 (37:04):
So this guard that was nicknamed John Wayne decided he
was going to take that step and be in control
of it all, and he was going to play the
character of I can't remember the guy's name, but the
guard in the warden Guard there in Cool Hand Luke
that had come out in nineteen sixty seven.

Speaker 1 (37:20):
What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Speaker 12 (37:27):
Where he says he says, I could be a real
nice guy, but I could be a real son of
a bitch, you know that guy? But yeah, that was
the character that his real name was almost said they
or something.

Speaker 4 (37:41):
I can't remember. It may show up and cut too,
because that's actually.

Speaker 12 (37:45):
An interview Struther Martin. There you go, Yeah, that's him.

Speaker 4 (37:49):
I say, we have this interview. Now it's a shorter
clip than the first one, but it actually interviews Eimbardo
talking about it. But it INTERVIEWSS the John Wayne guard.

Speaker 12 (38:01):
So that's cut to okay. Perfect.

Speaker 17 (38:08):
On the first day, I said this is not going
to work. I mean, the guards felt awkward giving orders
and they'd say, okay, line up and repeat your numbers,
and the prisons not giggling. And then a very interesting
thing happened. Dave Eshelman, who the prison's named John Wayne.
Like he said wild West Cowboy, he begins to be
more extreme.

Speaker 18 (38:32):
I decided that I would become the worst, most intimidating,
cruel prison guard that I could possibly be.

Speaker 4 (38:41):
You made home.

Speaker 18 (38:50):
I was sort of fascinated myself that people were believing
the act, and I was trying to see how far
I could take it before somebody would say, Okay, that's enough.

Speaker 11 (39:00):
Stop.

Speaker 12 (39:01):
We did have to do things like push ups, we
would have to sing things.

Speaker 18 (39:06):
At the beginning, we protested some of the actions.

Speaker 12 (39:09):
We did things to irritate the guards.

Speaker 19 (39:14):
So the guard's authority was challenged right off the back,
and the guards had to decide how they were going
to handle that, and they had to decide it without
our input. I mean again, this was not a Milgram
study in which we were standing over them telling them
what to do. And they began to see the prisoner's
behavior as a kind of an affront to their authority,
and they began to push back.

Speaker 18 (39:32):
We would ramp up the general harassment, just sort of
crank it up a bit. Nobody was telling me I
shouldn't be doing this. The professor is the authority here,
you know, he's the prison orton. He's not stopping me.

Speaker 4 (39:49):
The top of the door.

Speaker 19 (39:52):
There was the first evening, a current of rebellion that
took place.

Speaker 17 (39:56):
The prisoners rebelled, They barricaded themselves in their cells, and
so we refused to come out. They took off their numbers.
They didn't want to be deindividuated. They started cursing the
guards to their face. And the key, the key turning
point was the Gulf began to think of them as
dangerous prisoners.

Speaker 12 (40:17):
Yeah. So again that it plays the signs of it
sounds pretty interesting. And pretty legit until you find out
that because Lombardo saying that the guards was doing this,
the guards was doing this, but in other interviews the
guards to irritate the guards that Dave here actually saying

(40:41):
that he never told me to do more, but he
kept saying, you're doing great. Hey, you're fantastic. You look
really good out there today.

Speaker 4 (40:52):
Uh.

Speaker 12 (40:52):
And then he was telling the other guards, who was
kind of laid back and reserved, that they needed to
show the prisoners that the guards are a unit together
and that they needed to start stepping it up and
being more like John Wayne. Was so sure. And maybe
he didn't tell John Wayne to do or to stop it.

(41:13):
Certainly didn't do that, and he may not have told
him to do more. But by congratulating him and giving
him all this praise, it's encouragement and then telling the
other and then encouraging the other ones to be more
like him, Well, yeah, that's exactly what he's doing. He
may not have used those words, but it's one hundred
percent what he's doing.

Speaker 4 (41:30):
I mean, you hear the guy, the John Wayne guard.
You hear him saying nobody told me to stop. Yeah,
and that to me is so telling yeah, and he
was like, okay, yes, I'm getting more and more extreme,
but nobody's saying I crossed the line yet.

Speaker 12 (41:47):
So again that human nature parts. He's gonna see how
much fetter he can to push it.

Speaker 4 (41:51):
And that's exactly what he was saying there too.

Speaker 12 (41:54):
So so the one guy, and I think his number
is eight one six or eight eight eighty six twelve
or something. I look it up here a minute. Anyways,
that one guy who was kind of leading the rebellion,
he was had his hands on the door there. You
saw him, and he was saying, you know, hey, you
took our beds, you took our clothes, that kind of stuff.

Speaker 4 (42:17):
Well, okay, actually I have an interesting point there. You
know why they took their beds because on day one,
like the prisoners were actually using their mattresses to barricade
the doors. Yeah, so the guards couldn't get in, couldn't
see them.

Speaker 12 (42:31):
Yeah, so what that little what they were doing. The
guards would come in and to wake them up, they
would pull them all out into the hallway and they'd
make them do jumping jacks or push ups or sit ups.
They was just basically harassing them constantly.

Speaker 4 (42:49):
There was another one that I thought was just absolutely awful.
They pulled these boys out into the corridor, make them
line up against the walls, and they tell them, let's
see how well you've all learned your numbers, and they're
supposed to, like, one by one, rattle off their prisoner number.
I'm you know, eight six, one to two, mister correctional officer,

(43:10):
because that's the only way they were allowed to refer
to the guards was as mister correctional officer, and they
would be punished if they didn't do it.

Speaker 12 (43:19):
Well. That actually comes up after this because once they's
once the the prisoners started their rebellions and that kind
of stuff. That's when the guard started pushing even harder
once they doesn't squash that rebellion. Once they done the
beds against the door, so the guards getting because the
doors of these sales opened inward, bad design, and so

(43:45):
they put the bed frames.

Speaker 4 (43:46):
It wasn't actually a prison, this is just the basement
of one of the halls at Stanford University, so so.

Speaker 12 (43:54):
They put the beds and everything there in the way
that you couldn't open the door. Of course, the guards
eventually do get them out, and at that point they
take their beds completely. They take the bedding, the pillows,
the sheets, they take their smocks, so now they're all
button naked. And then they of course, the prisoners and

(44:16):
these ports are this point are legitimately mad and thinking
at this point that the guards are terrible people, and
the guards, like Zimbardo was saying, is realizing now that
these prisoners are starting to wrap it up and take
it to the new level. We're the ones in control,
and you're gonna do what we say because that's the

(44:38):
rules that they were given. So of course now they're
gonna start ramping up as well, and you'll see that
it turns, it gets gets progressively worse and worse and worse.

Speaker 5 (44:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (44:47):
Keep in mind this was originally supposed to last for
two weeks, but it was terminated after only six days. Yeah,
because of the extreme behavior from both the prisoners and
the guard.

Speaker 13 (45:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 12 (45:00):
The uh, yeah, all that rebellion started day one. I
mean it started within a few hours and it started
to meet I think they like the day started. They
got them checked in on day one by ten am,
and by that afternoon they had already what had got
into this. So I'm just talking about a few hours,
they'd already started this hole, and I mean.

Speaker 4 (45:21):
Speaking of just how the behavior and everything is ramping up.
We had one of the boys as the prisoner. There
were five total that had like emotional breakdowns, like actual.

Speaker 12 (45:34):
Breakdowns, yet different levels.

Speaker 4 (45:36):
One happened after only thirty six hours. He was only
in there for thirty six hours when he had an
emotional breakdown, and they still would not permit him to leave,
like he still had to stay.

Speaker 12 (45:52):
Yeah, the one that was the one who was leading
the rebellion. He realized, now I'll tell We'll tell this
first and then I'll tell what his side of the
story is. But he's famously known for being the screaming guy,
the screaming boy from the prison.

Speaker 4 (46:13):
They walked in solitary and just coming apart.

Speaker 12 (46:16):
Across the the the hallway from the prison cells was
a basically utility cause it that they was using for
the whole being solitary confinements. And this guy had already
been in the hole a couple of times, and he,
like I said, he was just very very anti establishment

(46:39):
god and an anti author Yeah, and that was just
his nature. And he was realizing that he that this
job was becoming bad, that this was a bad job.
And he wanted out because that now this was the

(47:02):
night of the first day. Uh. He was told that
he could bring books, and his idea was he's gonna
read books and just go through.

Speaker 4 (47:12):
The his two weeks and be done his paycheck.

Speaker 12 (47:17):
But then he realized that they lie to us about
a few things already, and now they say, and I
can't have my books, and so of course he realized
now that this is a bad job. I don't want
to be here. I'm ready to go home.

Speaker 4 (47:31):
This dynamic has changed drastically.

Speaker 12 (47:34):
And he tells them. So he's like, I'm ready to
go home. I want to leave, and they say, no,
he can't go. We're not gonna let you go. So
they later on he fakes a tummy ache. He tells him, hey,
I got to go. My stomach's bothered me. I got
to get out of here. It's so bad. I need

(47:55):
to go see a doctor. Well, they pull him in
the back and they're talking to him about it because
one of the things to leave is physical or mental distress.
So he says, I'll go physical distress. I got my
stomach's bothering me. I don't know if it's the food,
the stress, whatever, it is, but his tummy ached to

(48:16):
the point that he needed a doctor, so he needed
to leave the program. The experiment. Well, they talked to him,
says that we can't let you go because you're too
pivotal to the experiment. You are the leader of the rebellion,
you are the leader of the prisoners. You're too important
for the valuable to the study, too valuable for this

(48:39):
to the study. So they did not want to let
him go and basically would not told him at that point,
you can't leave. So now they send him back to
the hallway to this prison cell, and when they bring
him back in, they've already got all the other inmates
up against the wall outside. And the first thing he

(49:00):
does they bring him in the door, is he announces
to other prisoners they're not gonna let us go home.
They won't let us leave, So they put them back
in their cells. He uh decides that, okay, they're not
gonna let us leave, We're going to escape. So they
put them back into cells, and of course they're continuing

(49:22):
to fight. They're not fight, but they're continuing to be.

Speaker 4 (49:25):
Two guys that tried to get down the hallway, right
because they were actually shackled.

Speaker 12 (49:29):
Together, so they're continuing to push it. They realized, well,
they're not gonna let us leave, so they're gonna wrap
it up even more with their fighting and all that stuff.
So he gets put in the hole for a little while.
They bring him back out. I don't remember exactly what
they do for this point, but they wind up getting
their smart taken away again. So now they're all neked in.

Speaker 4 (49:50):
And we're talking like naked, yeah except for that skull.

Speaker 12 (49:56):
So stick around. So they would keep reaching through the bars,
grabbing at the door handles trying to get out. They
was grabbing at the guards as they come by, just
being real ruckuses. So they chained them together at this point,
the chains around their legs. They chained them up together
in pairs of two inside the cells. So this one

(50:22):
guy who was the main the leader, had found out
that there's electrical outlets inside the sell because they said
it's just a converted room, and he got the screw
out of it, and it was a flathead screw and
the latch the lock mechanism on the door. The way
it was put on. The screws were flat head as

(50:43):
well on the inside, so he used that bolt or
screw as a screwdriver and took the door lights apart
while the guards wasn't paying attention. And then once the
guards left, I guess for shift chains or whatever to
eat their supper whatever, they pushed the door open, was
trying to escape. Well it's a hallway. There's no way

(51:05):
to get out really, And as the guards come back,
they find them basically just roaming up and down the
hallway together.

Speaker 4 (51:12):
And again to keep in mind, these are buck naked
guys that are like if me and anyone are sitting here,
like his right leg is now like chained to my
left leg, and they're trying to you know, walk and
get out.

Speaker 12 (51:28):
And there's a video in archives or Stanford on this
and they're actually laughing about it because they they still
kind of they still kind of almost a game for you.

Speaker 4 (51:38):
Know, I mean maybe at this point they still kind
of saw it as like a test maybe, like like yes,
a game, like let's see if we can get out
of here, Like let's see if we can do it
spite being chained together, despite being naked, like.

Speaker 12 (51:52):
Well, one of the rules that they were given were,
you know, the guard says they couldn't escape well, and
the prisoner's minds, Hey, we escape. Our game's over, right.
So the guards come back in, they grab them, throw
them back into cell. Find out that eight eighty six twelve,
whatever's number was, the screaming boy was the one behind it.

(52:15):
So of course they started in on him pretty hard
as far as verbally getting on him.

Speaker 4 (52:20):
They were going to break him.

Speaker 12 (52:22):
Yeah, they decided it's going to break him. At that point, Well,
he's fighting back with him. I mean, he's right back
in their faces too. So they take him up, throw
him in the hole and shut the door lock and
they can actually lock that door, so he couldn't get
out of there. They did give his smock back, so
he was addressed at that point.

Speaker 13 (52:41):
And.

Speaker 12 (52:43):
So he's sitting in there and he realizes at this
point that hey, I really can't get out of here.
I have I have played the game correctly.

Speaker 4 (52:52):
I have at least he was informed anyway that I have.

Speaker 12 (52:58):
Come up with the physical excuse to go home, and
they denied that they lied about me able to have
books therefore, and they've lied about being able to go
home on those terms. What else do they lie about here?
I have to get out of here because this is
not right it's time for me to go. Something's wrong now,

(53:21):
Zimbardo and the general or the general belief on this
is that he actually has a mental breakdown. The video
that goes along with it. Do we have that clip?

Speaker 4 (53:32):
I don't have that one.

Speaker 12 (53:33):
The video that goes along with it.

Speaker 4 (53:36):
On the Disney thing, so we couldn't use it.

Speaker 12 (53:39):
The video that goes along with it. I'm sure you
can find it if you look up just the Stanford
prison experiment, the screaming boy or.

Speaker 4 (53:47):
Oh yeah, there's tons of stuff.

Speaker 12 (53:50):
It sounds horrible, I mean it is. It's disturbing.

Speaker 4 (53:55):
If he was acting, that is a phenomenal act.

Speaker 12 (53:59):
So of course they consider it a mental breakdown. So
they pull him from that from the whole take him
up to the doctor Zimbardo, and they do. Then the
interview on it Zimbardo is an agreement that he is

(54:19):
emotionally broken. At this point they had a mental breakdown.

Speaker 4 (54:24):
I mean he even and interviews and everything afterwards was
talking about he had an emotional breakdown.

Speaker 12 (54:31):
So he They agreed to let this guy go home
and come out of the study. So they call the
guy's girlfriend, She comes, gets him, and he leaves, so
he's out of the study. After thirty six hours, I.

Speaker 4 (54:44):
Say, we're day and a half into this.

Speaker 12 (54:46):
That's it. So this is actually a huge selling point
for Zimbardo because again his agenda is to prove that
prisons can take good people and turn them evil or
break them.

Speaker 4 (55:00):
And it's cruel to the inmates.

Speaker 12 (55:02):
Yeah, it's cruel to the inmates. And so here you go,
within thirty six hours of relatively benign torture, this guy
has a mental breakdown to this level. So of course
that has actually right up his alley. This is exactly
what he wanted to see.

Speaker 4 (55:21):
Say that was more harassment at that point because the torture,
actually the psychological torture started to come after that. It
was just like day two and in the day's six.

Speaker 12 (55:31):
He just depended on what level of you gonna call it.
But yeah, to me, yeah, I mean that's that's locker
room stuff. What was going on aggravating each other, so
pretty benign, especially for what's coming up. But he So
I think that Zimbardo, from the interviews I've seen and
what other people are saying, I think he was actually
happy and was ready to accept that this guy had

(55:54):
a mental breakdown, because it's what he wanted to see
it fit his.

Speaker 4 (55:57):
Nearess and that would probably explain to you why in
every interview after that he talked about him having an
emotional breakdown, because if he said, oh, well, he pretended
to have an emotional breakdown to get out of it,
it did not prove his hypothesis right.

Speaker 12 (56:11):
And the guy, the prisoner that had the break down,
the screaming boy, he maintains that it was fake, that
he was acting so that he could get out because
he knew the tummy ate, the physical element wasn't enough
to get him to leave, so he went in the
mental route and pretended and acted it out so that

(56:31):
he could go home because he knew, Hey, what.

Speaker 4 (56:34):
I'm interesting to see?

Speaker 12 (56:36):
It wasn't what I signed up for, so he was
ready to go home.

Speaker 4 (56:39):
It would have been really interesting to see if they
hadn't let him go home even then, like if it
I mean, even if it wasn't act like, who is
to say that it wouldn't have been real at some
other point, yeah.

Speaker 12 (56:53):
You know, if they actually could have wrote But I
think it happened in so early. Again, something that Zimbardo
just loved. He loved the idea that broke him so soon.

Speaker 4 (57:04):
Yeah, that was evident, like he was trying to create
a situation that proved his hypothesis. He was telling these
you know, the ones assigned his guards, He was literally
telling them to be as extreme as they could within
these set parameters. That they couldn't like physically harm anybody
or you know, do anything like that. They couldn't hurt anybody.

Speaker 12 (57:27):
Yeah, these guards had full uniforms, sunglasses, so they.

Speaker 4 (57:31):
Could mirrored sunglass.

Speaker 12 (57:33):
Yeah, so that that made the guards kind of what
would be less human to the prisoners.

Speaker 4 (57:39):
That and you see this picture right here, they would
put paper bags over their heads to further take away
that individual, and they took away their face.

Speaker 12 (57:47):
I mean, and you see there. To guard also had
a nightstick too, so he had quote unquote a weapon.
And so obviously he could use the knostick. He just
getn't hit you with it.

Speaker 4 (57:59):
I say, they did use them like bang on the
walls and doors and you know crap like that.

Speaker 12 (58:04):
They would take and kind of poke them with it
or move them around with it, but they couldn't actually, yeah,
strike them with it. So but that's not a part
of their authority tools of their authority, I guess.

Speaker 4 (58:17):
Yeah, I mean they tried to make it, I mean,
at least for the guards as real as possible. I mean, prisoners,
even back in the seventies, they got more than just
a smock and a skull cap and flip flops, you know,
like you get more than that. You get underwear, you
I mean, you get your betting, you get your sheets,
you get clothes. I mean, even in the seventies, like

(58:41):
say what you will about you know, prisons back then
maybe or even now, but prisoners were treated so much
better than they were treated. Like what they did in
this experiment would never fly, even in the seventies, right, Like,
it would have been like this huge, big deal if
it was actually happening in prisons, it would have been

(59:03):
considered a cruel and unusual punishment, which is constitutionally.

Speaker 12 (59:08):
Illegal, right the Yeah, he said that the reason they
wouldn't let the guards go to that level. And Zimbardo
was actually kind of sad about this, almost in a way,
or frustrated, I guess is because he wanted to, in

(59:29):
his words, replicate a true prison, which involves rape and
torture and physical violence even up to mirth. Yeah, and
he was actually disappointed because they couldn't go to that level.

Speaker 4 (59:46):
We can't fully simulate this, right, but.

Speaker 12 (59:49):
They want to get as close as they can. So
and the things that come up later. They start simulating
some things too that you might see in a prison
I guess two more accurately, you know, similate what they
believed or what he wanted to portray, portray that a

(01:00:09):
prison life would be like for a prisoner.

Speaker 4 (01:00:12):
Yeah. They they very very much tested the boundaries of
what they were allowed to do, like ethnically, and we're
going to get into the ethics of all the rest
of this later. But what Zimbardo put as the limits ethically,
we're so far beyond what any kind of psychological experiment

(01:00:34):
would be permitted today.

Speaker 12 (01:00:36):
Yeah, and so now we've got the first prisoner has left,
and now they're down a prisoner. So they called him
one of the three reserves and bring him in. And
this guy is a merchant marine. He was he had
lived on a ship, you know, and all that kind

(01:00:59):
of stuff. So he had the Now, of course this
isn't like actual military type level of stuff, but he
had a regimen that that he had to follow, and
that a much more what's the word, A much more

(01:01:22):
he had things he had to do every day, regimented, regimented,
thank you yeah, uh, regimented type of lifestyle than the
other prisoners did. Because these are just coon students as well.
They had never really experienced that.

Speaker 11 (01:01:36):
Uh.

Speaker 12 (01:01:36):
This guy been in the merchant Marines. He actually had
people telling him what to do, okay, now it's time
to eat type of situation, where the other guys they
didn't really have that for him. So when he comes
in to replace, he gets given the same number that
the previous uh participant had.

Speaker 4 (01:01:56):
Which I think also goes back to stripping them of
their individual like you're not even a new person. We're
just going to replace that.

Speaker 12 (01:02:03):
Person over there. But this guy, he didn't get arrested.
He actually showed up and he said he come into
the program, walked into the hallway, he got to the
intake room, and no one was actually there when we arrived,
so he just sat and waited, and all of a sudden,
these guards come in and immediately they start yelling at him,

(01:02:25):
stand him up, do the fingerprint thing, and strip him
down and louse him right there in that intake room.

Speaker 4 (01:02:32):
So they didn't react differently to it being a completely
new person they reacted the same way as they up
to this point.

Speaker 20 (01:02:41):
We're already behaving. Yeah, there was just immediate now, there
was no soft opening of this guy. It was immediate,
you're in it. So they put him into the hallway.
They treat him exactly like they would other prisoners.

Speaker 12 (01:02:58):
Except this guy, even though he had the same number
as the previous participant, he had a different attitude. Now,
whereas others had a few days to kind of by
this time, it had been what forty eight hours into it,

(01:03:19):
so a little over two days.

Speaker 4 (01:03:20):
They we're about to maybe two and a half days.

Speaker 12 (01:03:24):
So he arrives, he's had no time to assimilate it all.
He's just immediately in it. And in his interviews later
he actually talks about how he could already tell some
of the other prisoners were subdued. It was already kind
of falling into the routine what the guards had set

(01:03:45):
up and.

Speaker 4 (01:03:46):
Just go along with it. Don't make ways like it
gets worse for us if we, yeah, you know, fight
it or anything.

Speaker 12 (01:03:54):
Now, when their leader had his mental breakdown because of
what they saw was whether it be an act or not,
they saw this guy have a mental breakdown and be
and then he just was gone. He disappeared, no explanation. Yeah,
So in the prisoner's mind, they see that their friend,
their their buddy. I don't know how friendly they were,

(01:04:15):
but their their peers.

Speaker 4 (01:04:18):
It was their version of the leader. Like we have
John Wayne on the side of the guards that was
kind of the leader there. But then you had this
prisoner who was that counterpoint and now that counterpoint and
everything that's completely gone.

Speaker 12 (01:04:32):
Yeah, yeah, just gone. And now this new guy comes
in with a completely different attitude. So now they're just
kind of you can see at that point it is
the turning point for the prisoners because they start.

Speaker 4 (01:04:44):
It's very demoralizing.

Speaker 12 (01:04:45):
Oh yeah, that the fight is kind of gone at
this point with those well that type of fight anyways,
that there is some resistance, which I'm I think is
pretty cool, but it's again bad science. But the it's
very interesting to me to see how the prisoners react now, because.

Speaker 4 (01:05:05):
Which was the entire goal really of the experiment to
begin with, was how prisoners would react. It was about
compliance with authority, you know, how all these dynamic works
in a prison situation. So it really is focused more
on how the prisoners react, not necessarily how the guards

(01:05:26):
react because you have to remember, guys, our guards in
this situation are instructed to be as cruel as within
the rules allowed them to be.

Speaker 12 (01:05:39):
Yeah. So this new guy comes in and he's a
very much a pacifist, so definitely different attitude than the original.
And so these prisoners are kind of falling in line
at this point. It's actually affecting them pretty hard. Now
the guards.

Speaker 4 (01:05:59):
Looking wartime, like you lose your leader, your general, who
you know, whoever is in charge. That takes a very massive,
like emotional psychological toll on you because now the person
that you thought was going to help you get out
of this situation, they're gone, right, And I mean, what

(01:06:20):
do you do in that situation? Do you step up
and become like take try to take their place, try
to become a new leader, or do you just say
it's easier to go along.

Speaker 12 (01:06:30):
With it, right, Yeah, because they at this point they're
realizing that there is consequences to their actions. So now again,
these non prisoners, they're there from the time they were arrested.
They haven't had any they haven't left this hallway.

Speaker 4 (01:06:51):
Yeah, they've been in there for what we're talking over.

Speaker 12 (01:06:55):
Forty eight hours this Yeah, and they had no contact
with any one other then, you know, on the outside,
other than the guards. Yeah, they're realizing now that hey,
this is kind of just starting to set in, like, hey,
this is a lot more real than than we thought.
And they're starting and the guy who was their leader,

(01:07:15):
the outspoken one, the one who was fighting back, well
he disappeared. They broke him and he's gone. So that's
a mental hit.

Speaker 4 (01:07:23):
Yeah, this is the leader and they broke the leader.
So what does that say about us? That's what that
mentality is probably happening right there.

Speaker 12 (01:07:34):
So by this time now again now the guards, there
was nine guards, but they was only three to four
on per shift. They got to go home and they
got brakes. So the prisoners they got to see this
rotation of these other students and they got to leave
and we don't. So that's just another driving home force

(01:07:58):
that we really are, you know, are working in shifts.

Speaker 4 (01:08:01):
We are not like we actually are prisoners at this point.

Speaker 12 (01:08:04):
Yeah, and I mean all intents and purposes they are. Ye.
So this new guy, his name is uh, Clay, his
name's Clay. I remember that You've got Dave, who is
John Wayne, the.

Speaker 4 (01:08:21):
Main he's our leader. The guards.

Speaker 12 (01:08:23):
Now each shift had a version of John Wayne, but
not near to that level. Dave's John Wayne was obviously
the main lead and and the biggest impact on the
way the other guards acted and carried themselves. And now
he got Clay, this new guy coming in, and again

(01:08:46):
he's a pacifist and he's kind of almost been there,
done that type of situation by being in the Merchant Marines.
He's done some traveling and he's had people telling him
things that you know.

Speaker 4 (01:08:59):
That's I mean, for the most part of the military
when you're in it, like they kind of do control
almost everything, especially like if your active duty, you're living
on a base, and well it's not like everything is
very regimented, very scheduled.

Speaker 12 (01:09:13):
Well it's not like military type, it's not near that level,
but there is some stuff you gotta follow.

Speaker 4 (01:09:18):
But was that basis there was that ground floor that
he was able to like, okay, like I understand this.

Speaker 12 (01:09:25):
He's experienced someone else telling him what to do. Well.
He actually says in one of his interviews later that
a lot of the other prisoners they would tell him, hey,
it's only two weeks. We just keep our head down,
get through it, and it's over with. It's good money.
But he realizes after just a few hours into that

(01:09:46):
first day that this is ridiculous. You know, what these
guards are doing is stupid. There's no sense to this.
And he said, his quote was, I'm not a it's
just two weeks kind of guy. He's like, my time
in my life is worth more than that. And he
realized real quick that he had made a mistake. But yeah,

(01:10:08):
by signing into this, I.

Speaker 4 (01:10:09):
Mean some of the things that the guards were doing
were things like they would randomly pull you out of
the cell and they would make you sing like nursery
rhymes to them just until they said stop. Oh this
could go on for hours at a time.

Speaker 12 (01:10:23):
Yeah. They had them come out in groups or all
of them and put them up against the wall and
they would have to state their name or state their
numbers in order, over and over and over, faster and
faster and faster. The guards would have them sing their
numbers in some ridiculous way. They would have them all

(01:10:44):
hold hands and do ring around the rosie or whatever
that's called.

Speaker 4 (01:10:48):
Anything that they could use to humiliate them, just yeah,
almost infantilize them in a way. And there was that
one the sheet incident where each prisoner had to say
that they would keep their sheet or they.

Speaker 12 (01:11:03):
Won't get to that there's a reason why they do that. Yeah, So,
I mean they was making all these ridiculous, dumb games,
which is just very childish and was.

Speaker 4 (01:11:11):
Meant to infantelize and to humiliate them and.

Speaker 12 (01:11:15):
Some of the guards. Again there was nine guards, they
was all rotating out. Some of the guards had real
problems with this. They thought, well, this is I don't
enjoy doing this. I don't want a big guard anymore.
And one of the guards was kind of a very
laid back kind of guy. He actually said that the

(01:11:36):
reason he signed up is because he was almost arrested
for hash the drug possession, and it made him think
what would life be like about having been put in jail?
And then immediately he sees this adding the newspaper, so
I thought, hey, that's a great idea I can learn.
So he goes in hoping to be a prisoner and

(01:11:59):
even request but well after the fact he goes in
hoping to be a prisoner, he winds up being a
guard and he actually requests to be a prisoner and
they say, you know, no, it's random. You have to
be a guard, right, Well, he was identifying with the
prisoners better, and he said, I actually he had studied
abroad in Europe and at the time, you could walk

(01:12:21):
around on campuses in Europe smoking pot openly and nobody cared.
It was fine, it was normal. So while he was
in Stanford in that basement, he was smoking. Yeah, and
a lot of the others were smoking regular cigarettes on
camera at least, so he was actually sharing with the
prisoners too, and they cut all that out, so you

(01:12:44):
can't do that. So but he said, I want it,
said every time I lit up one, I wanted to
share it with the prisoners because there was just another
guy too.

Speaker 4 (01:12:51):
He related to the prisoners then and like he was trying,
I guess to human them in a way that was taken.

Speaker 12 (01:13:02):
Away from them, which again unprovoked. That was his natural reaction.
That's good science, that was his normal disposition. That's what
that should have been good science with his study. But
what happens is the warden Zimbardo and his I think
there was three other people that was kind of running it. Yeah,

(01:13:25):
they pull him to the side and says that he's
not playing along correctly, that he has to step it
up and be tougher where the prisoners, like the other
guards are doing, because that's the way it has to be.

Speaker 4 (01:13:41):
Yeah, and we're a little over an hour into this,
so if anybody's just joining. We showed a clip earlier
of Zimbardo like laying out how he went in the
guard orientation. He lays out what he expects from the guards.
And they are supposed to they're supposed to be cruel,
they're supposed to dehumanize, demoralize, like strip away the individuality

(01:14:06):
from these people. And however manner they deemed fit, like
all of these torture methods that we were describing, like
making them sing nursery rhymes or play ring around the rosie.
The guards came up with that entirely on their own right.

Speaker 12 (01:14:22):
The what they could do, they couldn't do anything physical,
they couldn't do anything to physically harm the prisoners, But
what they were encouraged to do was to cause fear and.

Speaker 4 (01:14:36):
Frustration. Yeah, Like they actually had on a blackboard like
a whole list of things like the sense of powerlessness.

Speaker 12 (01:14:45):
The sense of hopelessness. They wanted to dehumanize. They wanted
to do that too, And I mean those were the goals. Basically,
those are the rules that were set out. So if
they tell you and you're supposed to do.

Speaker 4 (01:15:02):
Yeah, and again these people were instructed to do this.
So this is where we get into the bad science
of this experiment because it was originally intended to be
an experiment about like a natural disposition that a person
has in a specific situation. So we get that guard

(01:15:24):
that is trying to, you know, kind of make things
easier on the prisoner and you know, tell them I
still recognize you as a person basically, like that is
his natural disposition in even a position of authority like that.
That should have been what was studied is if you
put regular people into these positions, how do they react

(01:15:48):
naturally to this power dynamic. But this experiment did not
do that. Again, they were instructed. The guards in the
position the power were instructed to actually abuse that power.
And we even get the John wayn Guy clip too
that we showed saying I was just pushing boundaries. They

(01:16:11):
never told me to stop. I just was doing what I.

Speaker 12 (01:16:13):
Was told to do. Yeah, that whole thing. They never
told me to stop.

Speaker 4 (01:16:17):
They never said what I was doing was too much
or too far.

Speaker 12 (01:16:20):
It's like when we showed that clip, I was mentioning
that they was actually encouraging them and congratulating them and
praising them for the things they were doing.

Speaker 4 (01:16:28):
Yeah, I mean that encourages their increasingly extreme behavior.

Speaker 12 (01:16:34):
And then the guards who are being more lenient and
all that they was actually being chastised and told to
do more. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:16:42):
There were about half of the guards they said that
were not like tyrannical or just cruel for cruelness sake.
There were about half of them, so about what six guards?

Speaker 12 (01:16:56):
Yeah, there was twelve guards on rotation so well, so half.

Speaker 4 (01:17:01):
Of them would be six like, so roughly six guards
were not going along with this and they were actually
chastised for it.

Speaker 12 (01:17:12):
Sorry that was a loud one. Yeah. Again, that's where
the science started really getting, in my opinion, ruined because
but it is.

Speaker 4 (01:17:22):
Still unnatural, just observation of human nature. It was just
it was completely planned and scripted, but still the.

Speaker 12 (01:17:33):
Neat The interesting thing too, that kind of made to
the interesting study, even though it's flawed, is that these
guards could have said no, these guards could have pushed
back against John Wayne, but none of them did. They
slowly begin to increase to match him and.

Speaker 4 (01:17:51):
You also see the inverse thing happening with the prisoners.
You see more and more of them just going along
with whatever is being demanded of them. They're just is
a blind obedience at this point.

Speaker 12 (01:18:06):
Yeah, and you'll see, Well we'll get into it now.
So we got Clay the replacement prisoner. He shows up,
pacifist kind of guy. He realizes real quick that hey,
this is a mistake. He of course, he hears stories
about the mental breakdown and the punishments that they've been
given and all this kind of stuff, So he thinks,

(01:18:29):
how can I fight back? So he comes up with
a hunger struck. He decides he's going to go on
a hunger strike, and eventually, because he's not eating, they'll
eventually cut him loose and send them on too.

Speaker 4 (01:18:44):
So that would get into what it would affect his
health after a few days at least. Yeah, I mean,
I assume he's still drinking water at this time, it
just as a hunger strike.

Speaker 12 (01:18:55):
But yeah, he's refusing to eat his food.

Speaker 4 (01:18:57):
Yeah, but I assume he's still hydrating.

Speaker 12 (01:18:59):
At least he'd be so yeah, because.

Speaker 4 (01:19:03):
I mean that gets into after only three days just
about is like the human tolerance on average.

Speaker 12 (01:19:09):
So he basically he's very very silent. He don't speak,
he doesn't raise any kind of fuss, he just refuses
to eat. The first time this happens, the yards kind
of realize they don't really know what to do. They
threaten him a few times, but they don't really know
how to handle it, because how do.

Speaker 4 (01:19:27):
You physically force him to.

Speaker 12 (01:19:29):
How do you break a hunger strike?

Speaker 4 (01:19:31):
You know, I say without actual physical force that they
were already just excluded from doing. They're not permitted to
do anything that would physically harm one of the prisoners.

Speaker 12 (01:19:42):
So the next meal was the following day, and he
does it again. Of course, he's he won't speak to him,
he won't participate other than what he's forced to participate
by chanting the names, standing out in the hall with
his other prisoners, those kind of things. But as far
as communication, he's very silent. But again he won't he

(01:20:05):
won't eat his food. And I think it happens to
be hot dog day or something.

Speaker 4 (01:20:09):
Oh yeah, that's really bad.

Speaker 12 (01:20:12):
And this at this point, John Wayne was back Dave,
and he decides that he's gonna be the one who
intimidates him and tries to break him tries to break him.
So he's telling them eat the hot dog his sausages,
and he won't do it. He says, if you don't
eat these sausages, and I'm gonna, you know what I'm

(01:20:32):
gonna do with them, I'm gonna take them and cram
them right up your ass.

Speaker 4 (01:20:35):
You know, like that's actually a literal quote. He literally
uses his words cram it up your ass.

Speaker 12 (01:20:41):
Yeah, so he's threatening to do physical harm to him.
I mean he's got his hands on him and stuff,
you know, not not choking him or nothing, but this
intimidation thing. Yeah, the intimidation of you know, I have
the power over you, handle your shoulder type thing. Because
at this point Clay is setting down at the table
and and John Wayne's.

Speaker 4 (01:21:01):
Standing over him. Yeah, it's very imposing physical situation to
be in.

Speaker 12 (01:21:07):
And he won't eat it. So again, the guards at
this point are being or starting to ramp up with
their anger and their threats because they're this guy.

Speaker 4 (01:21:19):
Is he's still refusing at this point, like he's not caving.

Speaker 12 (01:21:23):
This guy is leading a different kind of rebellion that
they don't know how to handle so well that.

Speaker 4 (01:21:29):
They're not allowed to handle. Probably the way that at
this point they wanted to.

Speaker 12 (01:21:33):
Handle it that they're not allowed to handle in any
kind of physical way. Yeah, so they don't know what
to do. So they take him and put him into
hole and that little closet, and this guy is much
bigger than the first prisoner. He actually says that when
he was in the hole, he couldn't stretch out all
the way that closet so he almost could, but he
couldn't quite stretch out.

Speaker 5 (01:21:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:21:54):
I mean the closet or the hole was a much
smaller than like the rooms that they had him in his.

Speaker 12 (01:22:00):
Oh yes, like I said, like a small.

Speaker 4 (01:22:04):
Like I think our bedroom closet is probably bigger than one.

Speaker 12 (01:22:07):
Yeah. I mean it's just like a utility cause that
you see in any kind of building, you know, real
not like utility closet with hot water heaters, just like
where you put your brooms and your mop bucket stuff
like that.

Speaker 4 (01:22:17):
It's like that tiny little pantry almost.

Speaker 12 (01:22:21):
Well, they said he couldn't stretch out in it, so
I imagine less than six foot long, yeah, and then
maybe three foot deep at the most, I would assume,
uh either way, small, and he spends several hours in there,
and the whole time, the guards are talking to him,
knocking on the cell doors, berating him, you know, verbally,

(01:22:45):
things like this psychological torture going on outside the door.
And uh, now they carry on with the other what
is it called, the other prisoners. They carry on with
them kind of normal more everything they're doing and making
them come out and chant, making them sing their songs

(01:23:07):
in the hallways, that kind of stuff. But every time
they would do it, they would have to say something
to for one six that's his one six to prisoner
for one sis. They would they would make him chant
to four one sits, or they would have to speak
through the door to prisoner four one SIS who was
in the hole, kind of mocking him.

Speaker 4 (01:23:28):
Say they were forced to antagonize him further awake it.
It was that whole thing about like, you know, if
one is going to break the rules, we're gonna punish
you all so that you all blame that one.

Speaker 12 (01:23:40):
So they let him out of the hole, he goes back,
does this thing in the room, and uh they the
next day comes around and everything goes kind of normally
till it comes time to eat, and once again he
refuses to eat, which really sets the John Wayne I
this point.

Speaker 4 (01:24:00):
I say, they thought that they have probably broken him
at that point. So when he refused to eat again,
that was like insult the injury to these people.

Speaker 12 (01:24:11):
So they pull him out. They threatened all the other
inmates that hey, this is because of for one six,
so this is about to happen. They put him into
hole and then he stays in the hole for a while,
and he tells the other inmates that unless for one
Sis eats his dinner, that we're going to take your

(01:24:35):
bed sheets and covers away and that you'll have to
sleep with no covers.

Speaker 4 (01:24:40):
Yeah, and they get like the bear mattress, basically like
just the bare minimum they were allowed.

Speaker 12 (01:24:47):
So if he gives the prisoners the choice that they
could all give away their bed sheets and they would
let four one Sits out of the hole as well
if they would do that, But if for one Sits
would eat his food, then they could all get their blankets.

Speaker 4 (01:25:07):
Back be rewarded. Basically, you're punished if he disobeys, and
you're rewarded if he decides to fall in line.

Speaker 12 (01:25:16):
So they they offer that option, and all but one
of the prisoners they vote to keep their blankets and
leave four one sits in the hole. One guy says
that he will give up his blankets and everything to
get four, one, six out, but majority rules, so they

(01:25:36):
got to keep their blankets.

Speaker 4 (01:25:38):
I numbered every single one except for that one.

Speaker 12 (01:25:42):
So they got to keep their blankets in the end,
but for one citis just spend the whole night in
the hope.

Speaker 4 (01:25:50):
Yeah you know me, I don't know. I mean, I'm
not in that situation, but I mean to me, like
isolation almost sounds appealing.

Speaker 12 (01:25:57):
Mostly yeah, concrete for because they I'm.

Speaker 4 (01:26:01):
Not in that position, like I have not had my
creature comforts taken.

Speaker 12 (01:26:05):
From me, complete darkness, concrete floor, no covers, no pillows,
no nothing in that smock with no underwear on and
you can't and stretch out all the way.

Speaker 4 (01:26:15):
Yeah, so like a whole different thing.

Speaker 12 (01:26:18):
So so to add insult on injury on this one,
he makes everyone knock on the door of the cell
of the of the whole bang on it real hard
and say thank you for one sits for letting us
keep our blankets. Thank you for one sits. And then
they've got to go to.

Speaker 4 (01:26:38):
Their and they have to actually hit the doors.

Speaker 12 (01:26:41):
So the one guy who wanted to give up his blanket,
so that four one says to get out. He didn't
want to do it, he didn't want to knock on
the door or nothing, but he finally in his mind
he says, well, for one Sits knows I'm his friend,
and I don't really mean to do this, but so
I I don't get punished, I'm going to play along

(01:27:03):
with it. And he winds up banging on the door
and playing along tailor for one, thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:27:07):
For When you look at the archive footage of that
and everything, you can actually hear it in his voice
that he is not wanting to say this, like he's
not wanting.

Speaker 12 (01:27:16):
To do this. Yeah. Later on and interviews later, he
actually he tears up when he talks about it too,
along with one of the other guards. This actually four
one Sits and his hunger strike and then the way
they treated him on this actually is the turning point
for some of the guards and some of the prisoners too.

(01:27:37):
It's kind of the eye opening moment.

Speaker 4 (01:27:40):
I say, I think it actually registered with them, is
what is happening to them.

Speaker 12 (01:27:46):
So he does eventually break down and eat because I
mean he's got have food nourishment. He doesn't really break
his hunger strike for anything the guard's done, but he
does go on to eat afterwards.

Speaker 4 (01:28:00):
That a physical necessity.

Speaker 12 (01:28:03):
So but the guards are still insulted, so they start
ramping up the things that they make these guys do.

Speaker 4 (01:28:13):
To petty little tortures.

Speaker 12 (01:28:16):
I mean, like they started making them call each other
by women's like not names, but uh pronouns.

Speaker 4 (01:28:25):
I guess, yeah, I mean they're just trying to again,
these are these are men. We're talking very young men.
And now you're it's like okay, almost like doctor Cox
with JD and Scrubs, how he always called him by
a girl's name. Like it's that same demoralizing technique that

(01:28:47):
is used, like even if you're not calling them by
a woman's name, like you are now saying that this
man is no longer a man.

Speaker 12 (01:28:55):
Yeah, and that they would actually remember these guys wearing
a thin cotton mock with no underwear and the smart
it didn't go far. It's like mid by, you know,
depending on how tall they are, lay above the knee,
you know. And they was making they're making them hold hands,
uh again, sing these silly little songs, tell each other

(01:29:17):
that they loved each other, making them hug each other,
and it just progressively gets darker and more homo roddy,
you know. And the nature that they was making them
do these things, I say, I.

Speaker 4 (01:29:31):
Think they actually make them simulate mounting each other.

Speaker 12 (01:29:34):
To put it, they started off, they started off making
them play leap frog. Yeah, and uh, you know the
position you are in leap frog, we're jumping over each other. Well,
then it got to where they was just making them
freeze in place. Well, so that looked like one was
mounting the one in front of them.

Speaker 4 (01:29:54):
Like I said, that's just putting it very politely.

Speaker 12 (01:29:56):
But yeah, they wouldn't making them physically do.

Speaker 4 (01:30:00):
Let's say, there was no like they weren't trying to
simulate thrusting or you know, anything like that. But it
was just that very especially for the person on the bottom. Yeah,
a very humiliating thing to go through.

Speaker 12 (01:30:15):
Now, remember this was a two week study and this
set this homo erotic stuff that they was getting had
they had already got to this level of humiliation on
day five.

Speaker 4 (01:30:29):
You know, we're not even the full six days in
did this thing.

Speaker 12 (01:30:32):
Lasts we're not halfway there yet, and we're not halfway
there of the two weeks, and they're already to this
level as what they're making these prisoners do. And I
say prisoners, we're at the level of what they're making
those fellows. They're fellows to the people they see on campus.
Yeah do do?

Speaker 4 (01:30:53):
They probably know like they may have had classes together
or something like, they may have actually known each other
in social circuce.

Speaker 12 (01:30:59):
And that was always something I thought about too, is,
after all this is over with, you're going to see
each other on campus.

Speaker 4 (01:31:05):
I say, how do you do that?

Speaker 12 (01:31:09):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:31:09):
I don't know that I could. I genuinely don't think
that I could. Like you were given this authority over me,
and you took it to a level that genuinely unethical immoral,
like this is not okay what you did, and you
were you you use that because well, I mean one

(01:31:33):
like John Wayne said, he was instructed too, and no
one ever told him to stop. The one ever told
him he went too far.

Speaker 12 (01:31:40):
No one ever told him to slow down or bring
it back. They kept encouraging him to do more. Yeah,
to keep pushing it.

Speaker 4 (01:31:47):
He was like their golden boy as far as the
guards went.

Speaker 12 (01:31:50):
Again, like you said, they never told him, in so
many words, to do more, but they were congratulating him
telling me he was doing such a good job and say,
and man, you know everybody else seems to be more
like him.

Speaker 4 (01:32:04):
And to get that dope, I mean hit, He's going
to keep doing more and more and everything to get
the praise again, like, hey, I'm doing good for this experiment,
like they're they're praising me. Like I'm just gonna keep
going until somebody tells me I've gone too far.

Speaker 12 (01:32:20):
And that's another that's an interesting thing too. Well, I'll
get to him after we kind of wrap up the
experiment part. Something about John Wayne, which I found interesting
later on. So this was happening on day as Day
six's when the Elite Frog incident and all this stuff
was going on, and what had happened.

Speaker 4 (01:32:40):
Finally the point that the then people were like, this
is going.

Speaker 12 (01:32:44):
A little super Lombardo's It was either five or six.
Zimbardo's girlfriend at the time, who winds up being his wife,
had come to visit because Zimbardo was spending he said,
up to eighteen hours or longer. They're observing what was
going on. So he wasn't being around her, he wasn't

(01:33:05):
being home and stuff. In his own words, he said
he was getting just deeper and deeper into this and
losing side of all life outside of it. And he
was actually being affected by this too in negative ways
because he was so invested in it. So his girlfriend says, Hey,

(01:33:26):
I'm gonna come visit. That's okay, So he says, yes,
he lets her Behind the scenes. Of course, the guards
and the prisoners don't even see that she's there. They
bring her in, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:33:36):
Yeah, they never see the observers or his colleagues or
anything like that. They never see any of them.

Speaker 12 (01:33:43):
Yeah, they don't see the cameras or micrones or anything
because they got them hiitting behind these panels in the
wall and stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:33:49):
So, and they also were told that these cameras and
mics wouldn't be on all the time, which we only
have a very limited amount of footage.

Speaker 12 (01:33:58):
From this study. We'll get to that, but I mean,
they never knew when the cameras were They said that
when the guards entered the hallway that the cameras would
be on, but that turned out not to be true.
They said that the voice recorders would always be on,
but that turned out not to be true as well,
but that the cameras would be on and off at

(01:34:20):
random times throughout the day and night inside the cells
and everything, and which I don't know if there's any
according to how many video hours they are. Obviously that
wasn't true either.

Speaker 4 (01:34:32):
Yeah, but I mean we have there should be you know,
six full blocks of like twenty four hour a day
footage if they were recording the entire thing, and we
have like a fraction of that.

Speaker 12 (01:34:47):
Yeah. So they So his girlfriend shows up to kind
of just setting in to spend time with him because
she doesn't know exactly what going on, and she misses him.

Speaker 4 (01:35:02):
You know, well I think she was also a side
student or.

Speaker 12 (01:35:06):
No, that was the first guy's girlfriend, the one who
faked his Yeah, that was his girlfriend. So she shows
up and she's watching the monitors for all this is
going on, and she says she almost get physically sick
watching it happen.

Speaker 4 (01:35:26):
You know, she is actually shocked.

Speaker 12 (01:35:29):
She said she had to get up and leave the room,
just disgusted by to the point of being almost physically sick.
She said that she was actually questioning the relationship with
Phil Zambara because she was so shocked by it all
that she didn't even recognize who he was. She says

(01:35:51):
that his physical appearance and his mannerisms was so altered.
When she got there, she thought something was wrong with him,
but she thought he was sick, and I guess in
the way he was just not physically. And so she
calls him out on it, she said, because he comes
to her after she leaves the room. He comes, he

(01:36:11):
follows her out, and he's talking to her like, hey,
what do you think? And she's like, this is gone
way too far? What are you doing? This is crazy.
You can't do that to these people. Yea, because she's
straight abusive because she sees the leap frogging and she
sees these things that's going on. So she's calling him
out like you've got to stop this. This is crazy.

(01:36:33):
And now this is according to Lombardo, is that when
she leaves, he goes back in with a new set
of eyes and watches the film and watching what's going
on and realizes that it is going too far and
that he has to shut it down. Because that's, according
to him, that's why they shut it down early, is

(01:36:54):
because he sees that it's.

Speaker 4 (01:36:56):
More and more extreme.

Speaker 12 (01:36:57):
Let's get to that point.

Speaker 4 (01:36:58):
And I mean, yeah, they didn't make it halfway through
the intended duration of this experiment because it was supposed
to last for two weeks. By day six, they're like,
we gotta shut this down.

Speaker 12 (01:37:12):
And see, that's something I should have checked on too.
I wonder, I said it lasted six days. I wonder
if they shut it down on the six day or
if they shut it down on the morning of the
day seven. I'm not clear on that.

Speaker 4 (01:37:23):
I don't know either.

Speaker 12 (01:37:24):
But it lasted six days. But again, day one didn't
start till after ten am, so we're not necessarily talking
a full twenty four hour day. It could have happened.
They could have shut it down that night on the
six day or the morning of the six day. I
don't know. Yea, they said it lasted six days. And

(01:37:44):
again the things that were happening to them pulling them
out of the rooms, making these ridiculous things that was
happening at random times, middle of the night, two am,
two pm. It didn't matter.

Speaker 4 (01:37:57):
They was because the guards were in constant rotation. They
were able to keep up this harassment and this abuse
twenty four to seven.

Speaker 12 (01:38:06):
At no point did these prisoners get a full night
sleep at all. No, they was always woken up at
two am, four am, random times, even during the day
when they would try to sleep, they'd get woken up
and harassed. So they was all suffering sleep, yeah, deprivation, deprivation.

Speaker 2 (01:38:26):
And this is.

Speaker 4 (01:38:29):
Why this study, I think, or this experiment was kind
of so ridiculous, and I was also so famous too,
because Evenzimbardo himself came out forty years later in twenty
eleven and said, this is absolutely unethical what we did.
He admits it. And I mean this man at the time,

(01:38:53):
like from you know, nineteen seventy one or nineteen seventy
two up until then, he had made the circuits. I
mean he was on the Daily Show when it was
still John Stewart, you know, like he made the rounds
of like the daytime talk shows, the nighttime talk shows,
the news articles. This was so widely publicized because it

(01:39:16):
was basically the first psychological experiment I think recorded that.

Speaker 12 (01:39:22):
Was like this at this level. Yeah, with the especially
for this long of a time, that was lasting this long.

Speaker 4 (01:39:30):
But I actually have a quote from him from that
the fortieth anniversary interview that he did in twenty eleven.
He says, in the Stanford Prison study, people were stressed
day and night for five days twenty four hours a day.
There is no question that it was a high level
of stress because five of the boys had emotional breakdowns,

(01:39:53):
the first within thirty six hours. Other boys that didn't
have emotional breakdowns were blindly obedient authority by the guards
and did terrible things to each other. And so it
is no question that that was unethical. You can't do
research where you allow people to suffer at that level.

(01:40:13):
That's from like the founder of the study himself saying
how unethical this was because, like informed consent was violated.
These boys were told one thing, but then the study
until something completely different, like what they had actually agreed to.

(01:40:34):
I mean, one what they had agreed to happened, but
then they went beyond that, which was not included in
any of like the the waivers or anything that they signed.
So informed consent was massively violated in this study.

Speaker 12 (01:40:51):
I have a problem with his that statement of him
because I think he only made that statement because of
all the negative publichly I guess coming out of this thing,
all the people questioning it. I think that was kind
of cover your butt kind of situation, uh, the way
I like, after like.

Speaker 4 (01:41:10):
A week of watching like Zimbardo interviews and trying to
get clips for the show and everything. I think he
actually did recognize that, yes, this is unethical.

Speaker 12 (01:41:19):
See I've watched a bunch of them all week too,
and I take just the opposite of him. I think
he's a sleazy car salesman and that he no.

Speaker 4 (01:41:25):
I mean, I think he is too, absolutely, but I
think he still is at least intellectually honest enough to say, yeah,
what I do was unethical, but I don't care.

Speaker 12 (01:41:37):
Now, maybe I don't care part, but I don't think.

Speaker 4 (01:41:40):
I obviously didn't say I don't care, But you get
that impression because he is like spending all these years
defending this study.

Speaker 12 (01:41:49):
Well he told Doctor Phil in one of his interviews.
Dr Phil says, how you've been there this long time?
He says, oh, yeah, I've been creating evil for a
long time.

Speaker 4 (01:41:57):
But I say he's trying to orchestrate evil in human nature,
which again is just really bad science, because if you're
trying to determine what human nature actually is for different people,
you have to observe it organically. You can't set up
a situation and instruct them on how to behave.

Speaker 12 (01:42:18):
Right, And that's exactly what he did. Yes, but again
that statement, it sounds good. I don't think he means
a lick of it. I think he just made that
statement to kind of say some sort of credibility.

Speaker 4 (01:42:30):
Or that that's entirely true. But because again this was
in twenty eleven, I don't that was the fortieth anniversary.
I don't know if he continued doing interviews or anything
after this.

Speaker 12 (01:42:43):
So well, he another thing that happened too, and there's
some striking similarities to some of the photos and some
of the videos of the Stanford prison experiment that happened
at What's on on the mobile Bay.

Speaker 4 (01:42:58):
Yeah, we've all seen the pictures and everything of the
the terrorists inmates that we held there being forced into
like almost literally like the same situations like they.

Speaker 12 (01:43:12):
Were posed and yeah, a much more twisted.

Speaker 4 (01:43:22):
I think that was more extreme, extreme extreme.

Speaker 12 (01:43:25):
Versions, but yeah, I mean very very similar. Even the
back covering the heads.

Speaker 4 (01:43:29):
Yeah, to depersonalize them, to take away.

Speaker 12 (01:43:32):
That individual being nude or in the smock.

Speaker 4 (01:43:36):
Meant to humiliate and degrade them.

Speaker 12 (01:43:39):
And the piling them up on each other in those
homo erotic ways. Those were straight things that was beginning
to happen on the Stanford experiment. But the problem is
that it was for lack of better for the for
the lack of being the actual words used. It was

(01:44:00):
being encouraged it in Stanfordsville, whereas again.

Speaker 4 (01:44:04):
They were told to go as far as they could
without physically harming the prisoners.

Speaker 12 (01:44:11):
And that what and I've always thought about with one
tam Ago is were they being encouraged to try to
break these prisoners as well?

Speaker 4 (01:44:23):
I say that may be a really good case for
us to look into.

Speaker 12 (01:44:26):
You because they, I mean, the government throws these guys
under the bus, these reservists under the bus that was
doing it and all these photos to save face in
a way. But again I'm wondering if they were ordered
to do this to break them, because I mean, there's
some obvious because these guys, they would have known the

(01:44:46):
Stanford and prison experiment, and there's too many similarities. I
think that's too strikingly similar for it to be unrelated.
I wonder if they were not encouraged to break the
spirits of these prisoners.

Speaker 4 (01:45:02):
I don't know, I'll take kind of a little bit
different stance from you on that. I don't think that,
at least based on the media reports and we've known
how the media has lied us for decades and decades now,
So grain of salt, guys. I'm not defending the media,
but I think that that is just something that is instinctual.

(01:45:28):
Like if you want to demoralize somebody, if you want
to depersonalize them, if you want to strip them of
your humanity, you have to put them in these situations
that are going to utterly debase them.

Speaker 12 (01:45:39):
And that's a good point because in the experiment you
see them progressing to that state with elite frogging in
the posing of the prisoners.

Speaker 4 (01:45:49):
And again they came by that naturally.

Speaker 12 (01:45:51):
I'd say that's a natural progression because they wasn't told
specifically to do that. Yes, that's just the direction they
started going.

Speaker 4 (01:45:58):
So I wonder decide to do that themselves.

Speaker 12 (01:46:02):
So I wonder in Guantanobo maybe if that was a
natural way for them to demoralize in a way to
break these prisoners, and if that's something that they'd done
on their own or they was kind of told to
do that, because I'm kind of curious. I see these similarities. Definitely.

Speaker 4 (01:46:23):
Yeah, well, I mean obviously, because like you said, the
photos from Guantanamo Bay side by side with some of
the photos and the archive footage we have of this
experiment eerily similar, like the paper bag over the head,
and then the bag over the head in Guantanamo, like
and then they're stripped to basically nothing, just kind of

(01:46:44):
a threadbare cloth covering themselves at the very most, unless
they were stripped down completely, like I mean, you see
that happening, And I mean, when you really think about it,
that is probably the easiest way to debase a person,
to humiliate them, to strip them down to their most

(01:47:07):
vulnerable state.

Speaker 12 (01:47:08):
I would say for men and women as well, but
for men, especially with Guantanomo version that culture and them
being men like that and having female guards through that
to them as well, that would very much be SA
That is a huge deal, big insult to them too.

Speaker 4 (01:47:30):
Because I mean, let's just say it honestly, like most
of those prisoners and everything in those terrorists are Islamic men.
So women, we're we're not allowed to be in positions
of the sorty. So when you get like these women
guards and everything at Guantanamo and you're making them stripped

(01:47:53):
down and they can't say no, you're putting them in
a homosexual pose, which is also a huge deal. Like
they literally throw people off buildings for that. This is
like easily one of the worst things. I think the
only thing that they would consider worse and that is

(01:48:14):
maybe being actually killed by a woman, or at least
a Jewish woman, because we know how they feel about
the female IDF soldiers and like one of their guys,
they're not considered martyrs that they get taken out by
like a female.

Speaker 12 (01:48:28):
Yeah, maybe something related would be it would be the
next step with them. You know.

Speaker 4 (01:48:35):
My mama, My mama actually always has a really I'm
probably gonna get crap for this, but she has a
really funny idea that every bullet and bomb and everything
should be coded in pork fat. Yeah, Like, I'm sorry,
that's that's genius.

Speaker 12 (01:48:55):
The uh. But yeah, the similarities between the two of
my think's got to be some sort of relation.

Speaker 16 (01:49:02):
I mean, it is.

Speaker 4 (01:49:03):
If it's a coincidence, it is a big coincidence.

Speaker 12 (01:49:07):
Because but again, maybe the Stanford prison experiment was more
a reflection. Yeah, and that was a kind of a
natural progression and that they just both kind of run
parallel because it is a natural progression.

Speaker 4 (01:49:22):
And see, that's where I stand on that because I
think that. I mean again, like the the most demoralizing
thing like me as a woman is to strip me
down naked and you know, put me in compromising positions.
That is me in my most vulnerable state, and you're
exploiting that now.

Speaker 12 (01:49:43):
And i'd say, and like you're even covering my face.

Speaker 4 (01:49:46):
Nothing else is covered, but my face is like you
have taken my face away but left me completely exposed.
I think that is just a normal human if you're
in the that mindset to do that.

Speaker 12 (01:50:01):
I say, you're saying that from a woman's porn of view,
but from a man's point of view as well. That's
just it's insane thing to me, And that's just a
human experience there being like it would be you in.

Speaker 4 (01:50:13):
Your most vulnerable state and your face taken away from
your identity, strip from you. It's the same thing to me,
Like woman or man, it doesn't matter, Like that's just well,
it is one of the most exploitative things you can
do to a person.

Speaker 12 (01:50:28):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's horrifying in two ways because
like you're saying the point you're coming from, and then
there's also people that pay for that experience and because
they want it.

Speaker 4 (01:50:39):
Yeah, I will never understand. No, I'm sorry, like we're
not king shame in anybody here.

Speaker 12 (01:50:46):
But no, But like I said, it's a big business
for some people. We got about ten minutes or so left,
but there won't be an end memorial.

Speaker 4 (01:50:58):
They say nobody died in this one. But I personally
what I was telling Daniel earlier, I think all twenty
four men in this experiment were victimized in different ways.

Speaker 12 (01:51:10):
There was the nine guards and there was ten, so
nineteen really because some of the other ones didn't get
called us.

Speaker 4 (01:51:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 12 (01:51:18):
Now there's reports of five that had mental breakdowns of
various degrees, but the one that got sent home with
the screaming is really the one that stands out.

Speaker 4 (01:51:29):
I say that was the one that's highlighted in the
movies and the documentaries.

Speaker 12 (01:51:33):
And there was one other one that got I think
his number was eight sixteen or eight fourteen or something
that got sent home as well because of a mental
breakdown regarding depression. But he's not spoken about really, so
I don't think he was overly dramatic, I guess because

(01:51:55):
you don't really see much about him as far as
interviews and things like that. But there is one other
one that got sent home for mental health evaluations.

Speaker 4 (01:52:03):
Okay, see that also brings up another question to me,
like how many of these men were actually like long
term affected by this.

Speaker 12 (01:52:12):
Well again, there's an interview from National Geographic. We watched
it this week and again this morning called the Stanford
Prison Experiment Unlocking the Truth. We watched it on Disney
Plus because that's who owns National Geographic now, but you
can find it out there and it has got the

(01:52:34):
interviews with some with the John Wayne guy, another guard
and two about three or four of the prisoners, including
the screaming boy, the one that got sent home. He
claims he faked it. Some of the other guards and
prisoners agree with him, saying that he faked it so

(01:52:56):
he could go home. And then Zimbardo squares but now
that it was real, because I think he wants it
to be real. But he's in this documentary too. It's
a three part documentary, and I say, if you're at
all interest in this, you really need to watch it
because it's really good.

Speaker 4 (01:53:12):
So they actually have the prisoners in the guards like now, yeah,
sitting together talking about it, watching some of the footage.

Speaker 12 (01:53:19):
Yeah, this documentary started John Wayne.

Speaker 4 (01:53:23):
Remember he actually like when he's seeing all this.

Speaker 12 (01:53:27):
Now, this started, this documentary started filming twenty twenty one
and it ends in twenty twenty three, so it's very
very recently. Dave Elrich I think his name is the
one that's John Wayne is highly basically the star of
this thing. Yeah, they show him a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:53:46):
He was the guard that took charge, like he was
the kind of like four runner there.

Speaker 12 (01:53:51):
He was a John Wayne guy. And you can actually
see some regret in his eyes at the end of
this documentary, like he looked like he.

Speaker 4 (01:53:57):
Was about to start crying at one point. You could
tell that there was actual remorse there, like I didn't
realize at the time, I guess.

Speaker 12 (01:54:05):
What I was doing, and some of the other same way,
there's another guard that was he did get to tears
just looking back on it and realizing again. One of
the guards that had knocked on the beat with his stick,
his knoightclub on the door when four one Sits was
in cornt or in the hole, that stuck with him

(01:54:26):
for the rest of his life. He said samely with
the prisoner that I wanted to give up his blankets
because he considered four one Sits a friend he said
that haunts him for the rest of his life fifty
plus years at this point. So it did have some
psychological effects on everybody involved lasting ones.

Speaker 4 (01:54:46):
Well, I mean I wonder too from the like the
prisoner's side of thing, like do they have any kind
of like lingering, depression or anxiety or you know, the
sense of powerlessness?

Speaker 12 (01:54:57):
And I'm sure so you see some of those.

Speaker 4 (01:55:00):
Is realizing, Okay, we actually got so into this that they.

Speaker 12 (01:55:05):
Were no longer people to us number and then.

Speaker 4 (01:55:08):
You're sitting in front of them and you're watching it
all again all these years later.

Speaker 12 (01:55:12):
That is something neat about this this documentary is at
the end of the documentary, they have the guard, a
few of the guards and feel the prisoners back together
in a simulated set that looks exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:55:26):
Like their They rebuilt it basically, and they.

Speaker 12 (01:55:30):
Have them all get back together face to face and
for the first time in fifty years and they can
actually talk about it. It's pretty neat. But I want
to say this about Dave john Wayne. It turns out
that he was a student of acting. What's that called.

Speaker 2 (01:55:49):
I don't know.

Speaker 12 (01:55:50):
He was an actor and still he studied it. He
took he took courses in music and in acting. So
he claims to be very passivest, laid back kind of guy,
and that John Wayne character was just that it was
a character, and that he played that character in the

(01:56:13):
experiment because he was told to, and that he that's
why he continued to ramp it up. He wanted to
see how far he'd push his character during this. Yeah,
exactly for the drama of it. He wanted to continue
to push it and take it another step forward every

(01:56:33):
day just to see to test his acting abilities to
because he was in character the entire time. So that's
one of the reasons ever.

Speaker 4 (01:56:41):
Registered with him. Either that the prisoners were not acting,
they were not instructed the same way the guards were.

Speaker 12 (01:56:47):
So they that's why he kept pushing it forward and
seeing how far he could take it. Is because he
was in character. That that he claims that that's where
he was getting the the motivation to do that was
because he was in character. It wasn't really him. But Yeah,
by the end of this documentary, you see him talking

(01:57:08):
together and you can almost see it dawn on him
after he's talking to these prisoners face to face that
it really did have a lasting effect on a lot
of these guys, and that you can you can see
him actually regretting it. Yeah, he even says that he
regrets some of the things that he'd done in character.

(01:57:28):
And I think him being sure that he's in character
is kind of way of him dealing with what rationally
would work what he did because he was in character.

Speaker 4 (01:57:38):
I think that's his coping mechanism with it too.

Speaker 12 (01:57:41):
Like justification.

Speaker 4 (01:57:43):
I think there may have been because I mean, these
are not unintelligent people. They were going to Stanford, so
you had to know that at some point this is
no longer an act, like you're actually doing these things
to other human beings, like.

Speaker 12 (01:57:58):
Right, So, and here's the thing we all agreement. I
think that it's bad science, that the is very unethical.
That was unethical, sure, but it was bad science, and
that it's starting to be I guess they're debunking it now.
It's becoming this new movement of people like it used
to be talked about all the time and taught in

(01:58:19):
schools where they're pulling it now in psychological classrooms and
stuff like that. They no longer teach it. They no longer.

Speaker 4 (01:58:30):
They do because other studies have been done on this study.

Speaker 12 (01:58:34):
They no longer teach it as a legitimate type of
science experiment. They do now it's more of a we're
going to caution you against them.

Speaker 4 (01:58:44):
Here the pitfalls, here are the things you.

Speaker 12 (01:58:46):
Don't need to do. So it's still very it's still
very much a popular study and this popular experiment, maybe
for different reasons now, but I'm going to say this
about it in closing. For me, is that sure it's
bad science, but that doesn't mean the result results are bad.

(01:59:08):
We still see the psychological results from the prisoners, from
the prisoner's point of view, which was the entire goal
of the study, and we also get the psychological results
of the guards. Yes, they were encouraged to do things
to wrap it up and instruct and instructed on what
they on what their limits were. It was the guard's

(01:59:30):
choice choices to keep pushing it to that level.

Speaker 4 (01:59:35):
And there were again, there were about half of the
guards that did not go along with the worst aspects
of this.

Speaker 12 (01:59:42):
I wish, and I know it's hard on them. I
wish it would have kept going because I want to
see I'm curious to see how far John Wayne and
others and a couple others would have kept pushing it
to see if those other guards would have stepped up
to stop it.

Speaker 4 (01:59:57):
I think there's a way to probably do that if
you just like informed consent has to be given all
around prisoners and everything, because they were not given informed well,
they could not give truly informed consent because everything that
they already agreed to was pushed beyond that without their knowledge,

(02:00:20):
and they were not allowed to say, hey, we didn't
sign up for this on one out right like unless
it actually got to the point that they could not
ignore it anymore. They were not allowed out even though
they were told that they were.

Speaker 12 (02:00:34):
Well, yes, if we're going to redo the experiment, you'd
have to do that way. But I'm talking about just
this original experiment. I wish it the original experiment the
way it was going, would have kept going, just because
I want to see I don't want to see the
prisoners obviously go through any more of that. What is
going through that's ridiculous.

Speaker 4 (02:00:54):
Well, you can't have the experiment without them.

Speaker 12 (02:00:56):
I'm talking about me personally, don't. I mean, I don't
want to really see that happen to him. What I
am curious about is how far like, okay, we've made
them play leap frog and put them in those positions.
I want to know. I want to know what they're
going to do next. That the next day, when John

(02:01:18):
Wayne comes back in and he said all night to
think about what happened, I want to know what his
next step is if he escalates, which I kind of
think he would because of his character.

Speaker 4 (02:01:29):
Well, he was also saying nobody stopped me.

Speaker 12 (02:01:32):
I want to see how what he would escalate it too.
And I want to see if those other guards who
are resistant to him would have played along or if
they would have tried to back in. Because I'm thinking
that it's as horrible as it sounds. I'm thinking it
ended too soon.

Speaker 4 (02:01:50):
Okays is saying the experiment requires you to continue.

Speaker 12 (02:01:55):
Yeah, well that's that's the statement from the mill Milligan.

Speaker 4 (02:02:00):
I mean that's where you're going. I mean I agree
with him on that.

Speaker 12 (02:02:03):
Yeah, but uh yeah, because I mean, if you want
to make it. And again it's just my curiosity. I
want to see a new study signed, but that taints it.
I need to see where this would have went. Am
I Am I happy that it ended? Oh yeah, for
those prisoners. I'm Hunterson happy that it ended because it
was getting horrible and it was getting really dark. But

(02:02:25):
there's part of me that wants to know and my
curious mind about human nature, what would have happened next,
because I want my desire would be that the guards
would eventually step up to John Wayne and say, hey,
we can't do this right, chill out right. I want
to see because they we already know that one guard,

(02:02:46):
the smaller guy, was already leaning that way. He was
already extremely uncomfortable because he talks about it in one
of the interviews. I want to see if he would
have actually started reeling them back in. And yeah, I'm
not saying I want him to do anything worse those prisoners.
In fact, I want the opposite. But it bugs me
that we don't know right what would have.

Speaker 4 (02:03:07):
Happened, you know, I mean I can see that natural
curiosity and everything, but I truly because and maybe this
is just kind of the way my brain goes because
I've you know, I've been a true crime junkie since
I was a child, and I've seen and I know
so many things about the very very dark side of humanity.

(02:03:29):
I think one of those prisoners would have ended up dying.
It could be I think if they had let it go,
somebody would have gotten very very hurt, very much.

Speaker 12 (02:03:40):
Could have or at least would have got violent against
one of the guards and then could have got hurt
that way as well.

Speaker 4 (02:03:45):
Because the prisoners, I don't think we're ever instructed that
they couldn't harm anybody else.

Speaker 12 (02:03:51):
Well, there was general across both boards that you could
do any physical harm. But also the prisoners would getting
to the point now that what they were being done
to them.

Speaker 4 (02:04:01):
It would have been self defense.

Speaker 12 (02:04:02):
Yeah, in their minds it would eventually broken. At least
one of them I think would have turned violent.

Speaker 4 (02:04:07):
Yeah, it could have. I think this could have gone
very very badly. It been allowed to continue. That's why
it had already got very bad.

Speaker 12 (02:04:15):
But that's why my curiosity wants to see, wishes the
original experiment, this Stanford prison experiment, would have continued to
see what would have happened. Again, my heart of hearts,
I want one of those guards to step up and
say no, Well.

Speaker 4 (02:04:34):
I think that's and that's another question we had asked.

Speaker 12 (02:04:37):
I know we're kind of beyond were over two hours, but.

Speaker 4 (02:04:43):
Like I, for me, I can see at least what
I think I would do either as a prisoner or
as a guard, Like I think as a guard, I
would be that one to step up like, hey, this
is going entirely too far down.

Speaker 12 (02:04:55):
Yeah, I think that's me too. I think that's our
normal nature to say I would have I would have
stopped it before it got to that level. But would
we That's the whole point of the study. How far
would the prisoners go and how far would the guards go?

Speaker 4 (02:05:11):
I mean, as a prisoner, I can tell you exactly
how far I go to like preserve myself at this point, like,
I know exactly how far I go.

Speaker 12 (02:05:19):
And again, setting on our couch and the lovely and
our lovely home with our dogs sleeping under feet, it's
easy to say that. Yeah. That's what's intriguing about these
studies is because I.

Speaker 4 (02:05:29):
Mean, you're actually in that situation.

Speaker 12 (02:05:31):
I know one hundred percent what I would do, really
until it happens, until your need eeping it, what happens,
and what do you do? Now? They just brought something
up here, a new study with ethical guardrails on it.
That's to redo this experiment. It would have to be

(02:05:55):
it would have to be have some ethical guidelines that
people would have to agree to upfront and follow.

Speaker 4 (02:06:01):
But I mean that means the researchers everything, like what
they tell people that they're agreeing to is what they
need to adhere to as well.

Speaker 12 (02:06:10):
But that's the problem. If you have those guard those
guidelines and limitations, you're not going to get a true reaction.
You're not You're not gonna get the true human reaction
to this.

Speaker 4 (02:06:25):
Maybe the better way to do this is actually to
I guess, maybe have undercover people in actual prisons.

Speaker 12 (02:06:33):
To get a true reading. To me, if you would
have to have people who don't.

Speaker 4 (02:06:37):
Know that's going on, well, I mean I'm saying like
we need to have like some kind of like psychiatrists
or psychologists go undercover and everything in a prison, either
as a prisoner or as a guard, and document how

(02:06:57):
both sides are reacting to it. You know, how they're
how they're acting, how they're behaving in response to one another.
You want to get a true reading, then, yeah, the
other prisoners in the other guards don't know that you're
actually studying them, but you are.

Speaker 12 (02:07:14):
Yeah, it has to be a natural blind test in
some way. Yeah, so it'd be interesting to see. I mean,
if you're gonna get a true human nature reading, from it.
Then you have to see how.

Speaker 4 (02:07:25):
They're behaving naturally without any kind of knowledge that they're
that they're being watched in their natural state, right, And
that's the only way to really get a good gauge
of that. And even then it's going to vary from
person to person.

Speaker 2 (02:07:42):
Mm.

Speaker 12 (02:07:44):
Yeah, like you said, it's it's a shame to me
personally that the experiment ended the way it did, because yes,
it was ramping up.

Speaker 11 (02:07:53):
It was.

Speaker 12 (02:07:55):
I'm gonna use this phrase, but I don't mean it
the way it's gonna sound. It was just getting good.
I mean, it was really getting to that point of Okay,
where do we go from here? Because this is nuts
at this point. I mean, what happens next? And I
think the telling of what happens next would have been

(02:08:16):
very eye opening. It may have been very bad, or
they could at somebody step up and say enough of this.
I hope it would have been somebody stepping up saying
enough of this.

Speaker 4 (02:08:25):
I say, we want to but it be of people.

Speaker 12 (02:08:28):
But it drives me nuts that we will never know. Yeah,
because you can't recreate this no in the same manner.

Speaker 4 (02:08:36):
And my closing is just some thoughts that I johnted
down earlier. I said as clear today this method of
research would not be allowed, but Zimbardo claimed that it
was motivated by his genuine concern over the ethical issues
surrounding prisons, compliance with authority, and the evils that humans
have proven to be capable of.

Speaker 12 (02:08:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:08:57):
Well, I mean that's what our show is entirely about, actually,
is the evils that humans commit to one another. I mean,
but I just I don't know we could. I don't
think this could ever be recreated today under the same guidelines.
Absolutely not.

Speaker 12 (02:09:15):
No, I don't think so either. They could be a
version of it maybe, but I don't know how it
actually play out, because I.

Speaker 4 (02:09:24):
Say, these people know that they're being observed them, so
that's going to alter their behavior.

Speaker 12 (02:09:31):
Yeah, I mean, going in knowing that you can't do
certain things the.

Speaker 4 (02:09:38):
Bare minimum, you cannot like physically harm this other person.

Speaker 12 (02:09:42):
I would like to see the role put in there,
like the rule or guideline that the guards can't physically
harm you unless you harm them that way is in
their mind at least open that it is a possibility.

Speaker 4 (02:09:58):
Yeah, I mean that that would I think be fair
at least, but especially if you're giving the guards pretty
much free range or whatever they want other than actually
hurt you.

Speaker 12 (02:10:11):
Yeah, but also in the guidelines, you would have to
let the prisoners have they're not they would have to
be able to sleep, because that's not something that happens
in prisons, is waking them up. Lot.

Speaker 4 (02:10:20):
I say, even Zimbardo, like that quote that I read.
He said, like, this was a twenty four to seven
assault on these boys, and that you cannot ethically do that.
You cannot actually like mentally or emotionally torture someone in
an actual academic study.

Speaker 12 (02:10:38):
Yeah, I think that the prison part of the title
should be just removed because it's not actually simulating a prison.
These guys were being held captive.

Speaker 4 (02:10:49):
I mean, there probably are you know a lot of
prison guards that are just abusive as hell like that.
I mean, but I don't think that is the normal
behavior of a prison guard.

Speaker 12 (02:11:06):
I mean, you see it in Hollywood and dramatized, and
you see some news sources Guantanambo things like that happen.
And then on the flip side of it, you get
people who are anti prison or anti authoritarian. They're going
to bring up Attica. They're going to say that Attica

(02:11:27):
happened because this kind of behavior from the guards is
the cause of it, and that them going on strike
and the violence that happened there. They're the proponents for
Attica is going to say, is going to lay all
the blame on the guards and the authoritarian way that

(02:11:50):
the prisons are run.

Speaker 4 (02:11:51):
They may be some proof to that, like common here
that the Stanford kidnapping experiment doesn't have quite the same ring.

Speaker 12 (02:11:59):
No, no, it may be more accurate.

Speaker 4 (02:12:02):
Well, I don't think that like the people who signed
up for it, if they thought that they could have
been one of the kidnappees, I don't think that they
would have been so eager to sign up for it.

Speaker 12 (02:12:14):
Well, it's like Ritz here had mentioned too, the subject
pool matters too. I think no way I would have
acted like those young men here in South Alabama. I mean,
I'd never have signed up because I can think better
than to do that. Those kids were mostly left coastal
liberals at the Yeah, so he's got a part of them.

Speaker 4 (02:12:36):
In that documentary talk about how like openly like anti
authoritarian they are.

Speaker 12 (02:12:40):
I mean this was like kind of the hippie age
and Yeah, so you had these guys on the Stanford
all of them, Like I said, they was all anti
war because Vietnam was going on. They was anti authoritarian.
Even the prisoners were all excited to show how bad
prisons were. Yeah, I mean they were all into They

(02:13:01):
all of them kind of agreed to this agenda. Maybe
not in as many words, but they were. They were
up for it.

Speaker 4 (02:13:08):
I mean, yes, they all signed up for it. But
what actually happened is not what they actually were told was,
you know, kind of going to happen. And they were
like the prisoners especially were not told that they were
not going to be permitted to leave even at night.

Speaker 12 (02:13:24):
They were in fact they could. Yeah, well they wouldn't
till they could leave that night to go home, but
they were told they could leave whenever they wanted to.
And so yeah, they wrote a script out for him
and then they just tossed it and basically it turned
out that they had lied to the prisoners.

Speaker 3 (02:13:42):
Either that or that was the.

Speaker 4 (02:13:43):
Intent all along, Yes, to give them like a certain
idea of what they were getting into and then strip
it from Yeah, because again they were trying to induce
this sense of powerlessness. That's why our lives were controlled
by somebody else.

Speaker 12 (02:13:58):
Entirely that's why they were instead of just allowed to
come in on that first day, because Zimbardo says that
he had them arrested because if he would allow they
were told us to show up at a certain time
that day, and they were arrested before that time because
he said, if the students had shown up and said, hey,

(02:14:20):
I'm here for the experiment, that was them taking that
first step, that was them being in power. It was
their choice.

Speaker 4 (02:14:28):
They were the ones taking control of their situation.

Speaker 12 (02:14:32):
And yeah, it was it was by choice for them
being there, but by Zimbardo arresting them early, he takes
that choice away, and from that very moment, he lets
the prisoners know that they are no longer in charge,
have no power.

Speaker 4 (02:14:47):
And again, was not anything that they were informed of.

Speaker 12 (02:14:51):
No, they did not know there was going to be
arrested or brought in that way.

Speaker 4 (02:14:56):
Yeah, I mean all, but like legally, they were actually
physically arrested and booked and.

Speaker 12 (02:15:04):
Fingerprinted everything.

Speaker 4 (02:15:05):
I mean, they basically walked them through the entire process
of being arrested without actually having like legal charges followed.

Speaker 12 (02:15:12):
Yeah, very legitimate. I think that was the most legitimate
part of the experiment, at least looking on paper, and
then after that it just started getting twisted. I think
it would become bad science. From from the time they
apart from the time.

Speaker 4 (02:15:31):
They put the blindfolds on them to bring them into
the prison, it was already unethical because I'm sorry, you
don't do that. That's not authentic that you're not blindfolded
when you're arrested and taken to a prison or a
jail that you don't know where it's at.

Speaker 12 (02:15:46):
To me, when it actually at that point it was
even right up against the line of being unethical and
arguably already crossed it. But in my mind, that point
where they jumped to the shark into unethicalness is when
he encouraged the guards to do more, to be tougher,
to be meaner. That's when to me again, he never

(02:16:10):
told them what to do.

Speaker 4 (02:16:11):
The cruelty and the sadism was instructed to the guards.

Speaker 12 (02:16:17):
Well, they was never told what to do. Theystructed to
be more cruel to do more.

Speaker 4 (02:16:23):
To take it further. What they decided to do on
that was on them entirely. In some of them, that's
not natural human behavior.

Speaker 12 (02:16:33):
Than at that point there is in the archives that's
written down. There is a list of things that they
could do. Suggestions like the sit ups and the push
ups and the jumping jacks and that kind of stuff
was suggested to them, But the rest.

Speaker 2 (02:16:50):
Of it was not.

Speaker 12 (02:16:51):
I mean, that was them just escalate, the guards escalating.

Speaker 4 (02:16:54):
On their own, them choosing the punishments, and they were going.

Speaker 10 (02:16:59):
To do so.

Speaker 12 (02:17:00):
Even though it's kind of deemed bad science at this
point and it's starting to be discredited into universities and
the way it's taught is starting to flip. To be
honest to me, the results of it are still genuine
results as far as seeing what human behavior does. Especially

(02:17:23):
when you.

Speaker 4 (02:17:23):
Start telling these these people to make it worse, that's
no longer genuine behavior. It's genuine places were organic they That's.

Speaker 12 (02:17:35):
That's where I was headed on. But would they have.

Speaker 4 (02:17:38):
Actually done that because that's their disposition. That's where the
bad science comes from.

Speaker 12 (02:17:44):
Absolutely, I'm not justifying the bad science of it. I'm
saying that we actually that you can learn from this
because the guards, with just a little bit of verbal
encouragement went there. Now, in the God guards also thought
they were part of the.

Speaker 4 (02:18:03):
Experiment, that they were a different part of the experiment.
They didn't know they thought they thought they were just
there to induce the behavior and the prisoners.

Speaker 12 (02:18:14):
Yeah, the experiment. They didn't know that they were being
studied as well. Yeah, so that that right there is
taint number one. I mean as far as messing it up,
and so now you can't say it's good sites on
any level, but the results of it are still something
worthy to be studied.

Speaker 4 (02:18:32):
That's what I'm trying to I mean, and that's why
we do have all the documentaries, we have movies, Countless
studies in you know, the psychology world have been done
on this study. So I mean we are learning all
the time, like more and more about human psychology from this.
But again, the way they went about it was just

(02:18:57):
really bad.

Speaker 12 (02:19:00):
Yeah it was. It was flawed, and it's it's sad
honestly that it was flawed to me because it it
could have been so good. And again, even after everything,
even after it went so far south, there's a part
of me that wishes it would have continued, just to see,
just to see what would have happened.

Speaker 4 (02:19:19):
Next, just your curiosity there.

Speaker 12 (02:19:22):
But at last we won't get that because I don't
think we can recreate it, not in a genuine way.

Speaker 4 (02:19:28):
So I mean, that wasn't genuine either for a study.

Speaker 12 (02:19:32):
But so what we are going to do because this
we had a lot of fun with this episode, and
I hope you guys enjoyed listening to it. We will
later on touch on the Milligram study that one, because
that's one of my favorites as well. And but that'll
be later on. I don't know when exactly, but if

(02:19:56):
we will touch on.

Speaker 4 (02:19:57):
That, I'm gonna be taking y'all's listeners suggestions too about
future episodes.

Speaker 12 (02:20:04):
Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. If you'll go
to front Portstrings its a on X or bump Stock
Barbie or bump Stock Ken on its, you can send
us messages whatever you want to do about some of
the things that y'all would like to hear some whether
it be a study or an experiment. Psychological is what

(02:20:26):
we would prefer.

Speaker 4 (02:20:26):
I guess I said that's always been my focus in
this arena.

Speaker 12 (02:20:30):
But it can be if you got it. If you
want to hear something about serial killer, if you want
to hear something about a murder, anything true crime related,
if you got your favorites H. H. Holmes or whoever it.

Speaker 4 (02:20:43):
May be, that's yours I think he's like hinting that
somebody needs to suggest that.

Speaker 12 (02:20:48):
But like I said, we want to get our audience
and our friends and our family on kl ur end
Radio involved in front ports, fringsics because we may host
this show, but we want this to be your show too,
So please while.

Speaker 4 (02:21:04):
We love this live chat and everything and seeing y'all's
comments and engaging with them too.

Speaker 12 (02:21:09):
Like yeah, uh, Klarian Radio has a plethora of shows. Uh,
so you can find something that you're interested in.

Speaker 4 (02:21:20):
Oh my god, it runs agamut like aliens to mental
health issues too, like cultural things like I.

Speaker 12 (02:21:29):
Mean, you've got shows about anything that you can think of.
You'll find something not just politics either, which is nice.
I mean it's just a little break. But yeah, just
find something. Go to klrianradio dot com. Uh, look at
the list of shows. I'm sure you'll find something you'll love.

(02:21:50):
I want to thank y'all for sure for joining us.
We love having you. We look forward to these shows
and and engaging with you guys. And again, go to
x pages, Friends on face ft underscore friends, It's on

(02:22:12):
ex It's bump stock, Barbie or bump Stock. Can send
us a message with things you want to hear in
upcoming shows.

Speaker 4 (02:22:18):
And if you're friends with us on Facebook too, just
like leave us a comment because I'll post it there too.
But I know our Facebook's are private for security reason.

Speaker 12 (02:22:27):
We have a lot of family that listens and friends
on Facebook that listen to so y'all call us textas
whatever I don't know.

Speaker 4 (02:22:34):
On Facebook can always reach us. And yeah, I'm actually
looking forward to see what suggestions everybody comes up with.

Speaker 12 (02:22:42):
So and Uh in the background is always his producer
Rick and uh he's been putting the clips up for
us and all that stuff, and he's the general manager
of k Lauri and Radio and we want to thank
him again for opportunities and always been here for.

Speaker 4 (02:22:58):
Us and make it runs smoothly and.

Speaker 16 (02:23:05):
Here.

Speaker 12 (02:23:09):
But yeah, I think that's okay. We'll just kind of
end our show on that kind of note. I know
we run over a little bit, but it's.

Speaker 4 (02:23:16):
Uh, that's one of my most fascinating psychological studies out
there for me, So I got a little enthusiastic with it.

Speaker 12 (02:23:23):
So and it's been show back. We kind of went
a little.

Speaker 1 (02:23:26):
Long too, So my parting shot to the audience, guys,
I'm just going to say this now find you a
woman that looks at Ken the way bump Stuck Barbie
looks at you.

Speaker 4 (02:23:36):
I'm just I mean, I treat this podcast like it's
just kind of a conversation with him because we do
this regularly, Like he's gotten into true crime stuff just
by osmosis over the last ten years or so, and
like it's just it's it's a conversation. Is how I
feel most natural and most comfortable. So instead of focusing

(02:23:58):
on my camera, I I just look at him and
we just talk about it. So, yeah, that's why we
say it just come. If it wasn't like all snowy
and icy outside, we could be out on the front porch.

Speaker 12 (02:24:10):
But yeah, this is your version of pulling up a
chair and joining us. But that's why we want it
to be just a a.

Speaker 4 (02:24:19):
Very comfortable, casual talk about very very dark things.

Speaker 12 (02:24:23):
Second, getting steady on Saturday nights. But thank you all
again for joining us. Go to klaurion dot com radio
find the show on there and we'll see y'all two weeks.
Love y'all.

Speaker 3 (02:24:42):
I like the girl time than I like scary stories
on the Morday.

Speaker 11 (02:24:51):
I like.

Speaker 3 (02:24:54):
I like the girl on top.

Speaker 11 (02:24:56):
Guys, just f

Speaker 3 (02:25:00):
Listen to it aloud as you crying,