FPF - 03/08/25 The One About Waco

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello friends, you have a moment so that we may
discuss our Lord and Savior minarchy. No, seriously, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Hi.

Speaker 1 (00:09):
My name is Rick Robinson. I am the general manager
of Klrnradio dot com. We are probably the largest independent
podcast network.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
That you've never heard of.

Speaker 4 (00:19):
We have a little bit of everything, and by that
what I mean to tell you is we have news,
pop cultures, special events, inspire, attainment, true crime, mental health shows,
drama productions, and pretty much everything in between. So if
you're looking for a new podcast home to grab a
little bit of everything that you love all in one place,
come check us out.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
You can find us on x under at klr and Radio.
You can find us on our rumble and our YouTube
channels under the same names. We can also find us
at klrnradio dot com and pretty much every podcast catcher
and known demand. So again, feel free to come check
us out anytime you like at klr and Radio.

Speaker 5 (01:03):
Are you ready to reach for the stars? Tune in
to The Lost Wonderer, the number one monthly podcast on
Good Pods in Astronomy. Join our host Jeff as he
takes you on an interstellar adventure to explore the mysteries
of space and the wonders of science, from rocket launches
and distant galaxies to the latest discoveries in astronomy. Each
episode is a thrilling ride through the cosmos. Don't just

(01:27):
gaze at the stars. Come explore the universe with us.
Follow the Lost Wonder wherever you get your podcasts, and
let's discover the stars together.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
This is Derek's Rileotto parts story.

Speaker 6 (01:49):
After the third time jump starting my car, I finally
realized my battery was dying, so I stopped by O'Reilly
to have it checked. They tested it right there in
the parking lot. Was bad, for real bad, but they
helped me find the right battery for my car and
even installed it for free. Now my car starts like new.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
Oh all right, old arts.

Speaker 7 (02:16):
I'm Jordan Klinger, an attorney at McIntyre Law. The decision
to hire an attorney after you've been injured is important.
The decision on who to hire is even more important.
At McIntyre Law, we will settle a case if the
offer to our client is fair. Partial justice is no
justice at all. At McIntyre Law, we are committed to
obtaining full justice for our clients. Contact McIntyre Law at

(02:38):
four zero five nine one seven fifty two hundred or
visit us at mcintyrelaw dot com.

Speaker 8 (02:44):
Hi everyone, this is JJ, the co founder of good Pods.
If you haven't heard of it yet, Good Pods is
like Goodreads or Instagram, but for podcasts. It's new, it's social,
it's different, and it's growing really fast. There are more
than two million podcasts and we know that it is
impossible to figure out what to listen to on good Pods.

(03:04):
You follow your friends and podcasters to see what they like.
That is the number one way to discover new shows
and episodes. You can find good Pods on the web
or download the app Happy Listening.

Speaker 9 (03:20):
KLRN Radio has advertising rates available. We have rates to
fit almost any budget. Contact us at advertising at KLRN
radio dot com.

Speaker 10 (03:38):
The following program contains course language and adult themes. Listener
and discretion is advised. Listen to a lot of your crime.

Speaker 11 (04:00):
I listen to that night.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
I like the girl Talk.

Speaker 10 (04:06):
It makes me feel.

Speaker 12 (04:09):
I like scary stories on the morning, and I like
them that night.

Speaker 10 (04:15):
I like the girl Talk.

Speaker 12 (04:17):
Guys, they maybe feels.

Speaker 10 (04:21):
I listen to a lot of crime.

Speaker 13 (04:39):
And the bump stocks appear to be frozen, and yes,
they appear to be frozen.

Speaker 1 (04:51):
We're here, I promise. I'm the producer. I'm trying to
figure out where they are if they've lost connection now
that we tried to go live. Fun times, Fun times,
fun time. Okay, Well, while we are trying to re

(05:31):
establish contact with the hosts. My name's your Crominson. This
is the one about Waco. Welcome to Frontport Forensics. I'm
normally the producer, but I'm trying to find out what
happened with them because we were communicating just fine until
we went live, and now I've got nothing, so I'm
trying to re establish contact with them. Let's do this
because I had a clip queued up for after they

(05:54):
did their open, so we're gonna change things up a bit.
Play the clip first, and then I'm gonna see if
I can figure out what's going on with them while
the clip is playing.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
So here we go.

Speaker 14 (06:05):
If you fly low over North Texas today, it's easy
to pass right over the site of one of the
most horrific events in recent American history, a fifty one
day siege by US law enforcement with deadly gun battles.
Terror from the air, and a raging inferno that left

(06:25):
more than seventy five people dead, including many women and children.
This is what the site of the infamous Waco Siege
looks like now. These ducks are swimming in what was
once the basement of a sprawling compound ruled over by
a man named David Koresh, who called himself the Messiah.

(06:51):
His followers a breakaway group of Adventist Christians known as
the Branch Davidians. They believed that the Second Coming of
Christ was imminent and lived quietly here on this bend
of road, just outside the town of Waco.

Speaker 5 (07:06):
For years, it.

Speaker 14 (07:07):
Remained under the radar, surrounded by Texas farms and fields,
But in nineteen ninety three, stories started spreading that Koresh
was sexually abusing young girls and that the group was
stockpiling illegal weapons, so the US government decided to take action.
On February twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three, the Bureau of Alcohol,

(07:30):
Tobacco and Firearms raided the compound. The Branch Davidians responded
with gunfire and quickly killed four agents inside the buildings.
Koresh and his followers hunkered down, refusing to surrender. The
siege continued for fifty one days before coming to a
terrifying end on April nineteenth. The FBI tried to force

(07:53):
the Branch Davidians out with tear gas, but the compound
suddenly erupted into flames. Within an hour, it had burned
to the ground. Inside at least seventy six men, women,
and children were dead. Koresh's body was found with bullet wounds.

(08:18):
The underground bunker's Koresh and as followers used have since
been plowed under. Crumbling foundations and a swimming pool are
all that remain today. A new group of Davidians, called
simply Branch, lives here. They have constructed new homes and
a church near where the old compound once stood. Some

(08:40):
members of the original church who survived the siege still
believe David Koresh and his followers who died will be resurrected,
but for now they are remembered here in a memorial
to those who perished.

Speaker 3 (09:02):
Okay, so I want to thank producer Rick for covering forest.
We once again are having internet issues. That's why we
weren't able to be with you last week, and we're
kicking off this week again. So elon look for us.
We'll be looking for you real soon to get your
Starlink set up. But I am bump Stock Ken, I

(09:23):
am your co host sitting beside me a no video tonight,
just audio. Is the loveliest ever bump Stock Barbie, You're
hostess with the mostest in my better half.

Speaker 10 (09:36):
Yeah. Like I said, we've had internet issues with Windstream,
Source Switch and Starlink. But we wanted to bring this
story to y'all last week because February twenty eighth of
nineteen ninety three was the thirty second anniversary of Day
one of the siege at Wago. That's when that fifty

(09:59):
one day standoff basically started happening, and will start out
like because David Crush was not actually the original leader
of the Branch Davidians. The Branch Davidians actually existed before
he showed up. But they were a religious sect that
obviously got national attention during the standoff with federal law enforcement,

(10:24):
starting with the ATF and you know, went in with
FBI Janet Reno her whole administration basically her control over
all of this. They were accused of stockpiling weapons, but
that's not really what the cult was actually about. I
wouldn't say like they were only stockpiling weapons because convinced

(10:50):
that they were going to be in a battle for
bringing the apocalypse during the end.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
Times, right the everyone owes the Second Amendment controversy.

Speaker 10 (11:01):
Yeah, with the ATF and everything, and we'll get into
that probably in the second hour or on that aspect
of it. This first hour we're going to be laying
out what the Branch Davidians under David Koresh actually believed
because again this this sect, the Branch Davidians, existed prior
to him.

Speaker 3 (11:22):
M Yeah, we're again you know this. We could do
a whole show on just the Waco and what the
story everybody knows and the siege, but we want to
focus on the cult aspect of it for our for
the purpose of our ship.

Speaker 10 (11:38):
Yeah, this is part three of our cult series that
we're focusing on, So we are going to focus more
heavily on the cult and what it actually espoused. I
guess would be the best word.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yeah. Like again, we always each show on kal our
Ready dot Com has their own unique flavor and their
own interests. In our cards is a cult, murder, serial killers,
mass murder Unsolved, Mister true Crime true crime exactly, So

(12:17):
we're gonna kind of stick with the at least focused
on the cult part, at least the first half of
the show. You can't talk about the Bransdavidians in Waco,
especially without getting to the siege.

Speaker 10 (12:32):
That I mean, that is everybody knows about. That is
what happened from February twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three to
about April nineteenth.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
So you was mentioning that the brand Savinia has been
around for a long time.

Speaker 10 (12:48):
Yeah, they actually and will kind of start. David Koresh
was not actually his name. He was born Vernon Wayne
Howell on August seventeenth of nineteen fifty nine, and his
mother was an unwed teenage mother named Bonnie Clark, and
he was born in Houston.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
Now the mother was fifteen when he was.

Speaker 10 (13:08):
Born, Yeah, fourteen fifteen something like that, unwed teenage mother.
So he never met his father until his teenage years.
Bonnie actually left him to be raised by his grandparents
during his early years. My notes say he struggled in
school due to impart to severe dyslexia and poor eyesight.

Speaker 3 (13:30):
Isn't it neat though, because we see this happening with
a lot of cult leaders and influential type of people
out that. You know, whether it be serial killers, whichever
direction they go, you always look at their childhood and
their upbringing. There's a lot of similarities. Like you, A
lot of it.

Speaker 10 (13:51):
Is fatherless homes, like that's a huge part of it.
Like basically all of them have been uncommon.

Speaker 3 (13:57):
And the.

Speaker 15 (14:00):
Like the mother even a bandity to the ground and
whatever reason it may be, it may have been the
best scenario for him by the time, but still it's
something that message I think has to influence their psyche.

Speaker 10 (14:13):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean your mother, your mother, you know,
has given you up to somebody else for whatever reason
and everything. But yeah, that's going to take its toll. Yeah,
because that's your mama, you know what I mean right now?
I mean not everybody's like Edmund Kemper's mama, who was
just awful.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
But in some cases, in some of the sewerial killer cases,
maybe the mama should have kicked them out. They've been
a lot better.

Speaker 10 (14:38):
Yeah, maybe mama shouldn't have had anything to do with
a lot of those.

Speaker 3 (14:41):
But I'm sorry, who now do you have that the now?
I remember the way? Uh, David Koresh got into that
branch of Indians was the pasture and I'm air quote
and you can't see them tonight.

Speaker 15 (14:56):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (14:56):
They was a female pastor.

Speaker 10 (14:59):
Yeah, from Mos Davidians. It was like her husband And
I'll get into.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
That in a second, I get to it.

Speaker 10 (15:06):
Yeah, I still want to cover like more who he
was as a child and everything, because like here, he
had a very lonely childhood, but he grew up playing
musical instruments and studying the Bible, which ended up becoming
kind of an obsession for him. Like he was said
that he almost had a nidetic memory a photographic memory,

(15:30):
so he would be able to like read passages or
chapters in the Bible and everything and just kind of
repeat them from memory. So yes, that was in accession
starting from about twelve years years old, which we know
in you know, other episodes that we've talked about, like
these serial killers, these other people that have these issues,

(15:52):
we always see it show up kind of in early adolescence,
like right around the time puberty starts is when we
really see this.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
That's when part a lot of your personality is still
building and really coming on this into its own.

Speaker 10 (16:06):
Yeah, and if We've actually talked about this too. When
you develop like an unhealthy obsession with something, it can
turn into a paraphilia, which you know, we've done other
episodes on that too, but I mean there are different classifications,
so y'all can go back and listen to that episode.

(16:26):
I'm not going to go through all of that again
because that's a lot, but I almost want to say, like,
the religious obsession almost became his paraphilia.

Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, I could see that it would.

Speaker 5 (16:40):
It was.

Speaker 3 (16:40):
It didn't turn into things violent or gross or anything
like that, but it was still that.

Speaker 10 (16:45):
Well gross probably, and we'll get it.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
Well, I mean that's this time of his age, though
it does progress. Yeah, but yeah, I can see how
I can say I would still fit into a paraphilia top.

Speaker 10 (16:55):
I think it could. I think it absolutely could qualify.

Speaker 3 (16:57):
Right.

Speaker 10 (16:58):
But he actually had interpreted the entire New Testament by
the time he was twelve years old, so again, this
obsessive reading and everything of the Bible started very early.
He became a born again Christian of a Southern Baptist church,
but disagreed with their teachings and subsequently joined the Seventh

(17:20):
day Adventist Church and staid and I mean even then,
he was already at this age seen as overbearing and
of always trying to attempt to convert people to his
interpretation of religion and the Bible. So he was actually
eventually expelled from the Seventh day Adventist church, telling the

(17:44):
pastor that God wanted him Koresh to take the pastor's
twelve year old daughter as his wife.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
Hold was it at that time?

Speaker 10 (17:51):
This was still in his teen years. I don't have
an exact age for.

Speaker 3 (17:55):
That one, but we'll see later that he does not
outgrow that.

Speaker 10 (18:00):
He doesn't And I mean, you see this with a
lot of male cult leaders, like they absolutely sexually abuse
the female members of their congregation and especially the younger ones.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
It always seems to go that.

Speaker 10 (18:14):
Way, always, every single time he dropped out in his
senior year, he took a carpentry job. So to me,
that's kind of that he went into carpentry because I
think he saw himself as a messiah like Jesus. And
in fact, I think we're you know, we find out
later that he actually was saying he is the new Messiah.

Speaker 3 (18:36):
Well, he would he would say that his followers call
him that, that his followers say that he is so disagree.

Speaker 10 (18:44):
Yeah, he just never disagreed with them about that. But
him going into carpentry after he dropped out and everything,
I think is very very interesting.

Speaker 3 (18:54):
For sure. You know he did that on purpose and
the reason why he did it, you.

Speaker 10 (18:58):
Know, Oh yeah, absolutely. Then in his early twenties he
actually moved to La and everything. I was trying to
make it as a rock star, so he tried to
use like, you know, he played guitar and everything. He
was a musician. I've even shared that meme and everything
kind of poking fun at this where it shows him
playing guitar and it says, anyways, here's we didn't start
the fire.

Speaker 3 (19:18):
Yeah, I've seen it, which.

Speaker 10 (19:19):
Is like the best song to pick for that meme.

Speaker 3 (19:21):
So yeah, Now did he did he ever play guitar
like in Waco locally to like recruit because you know,
he went to the bars to recruit people.

Speaker 10 (19:34):
Yeah, I don't know if he actually used music as
a recruiting tool. But even in the quote unquote church,
he would play and sing and you know, music was
a big part of that. But again, he tried to
make it in la as a rock star and obviously
that failed. Yeah, but throughout the early nineteen eighties, he

(19:57):
was still known as Vernon Howell at this point. That's
when he moved to Waco and he joined the Branch Davidians,
which was a splinter group at the time of the
Seventh Day at Ventice Church. Lois Roden was the widow
of Branch Davadian founder Benjamin Roden, as she encouraged him
to play guitar and seeing during the group's daily Bible
study sessions at the Mount Carmel Center.

Speaker 16 (20:20):
Right.

Speaker 10 (20:21):
So yes, this the the Branch Davidians were not actually
founded by David Krush He just eventually became like the head.
But it was originally led by Benjamin Roden, and then
subsequently by his widow Lois, who then you know, encouraged

(20:41):
him and kind of brought him up in this subsect
of the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

Speaker 3 (20:47):
So the Lois was delayed and I can't remember name.
She was the current pastor when David.

Speaker 10 (20:52):
Yeah, when he when he found them, when he moved
to Waco and joined them, she was in charge.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
Because I remember reading or seeing somewhere where she saw
the fire in him and thought he would be good.
So she actually kind of recruited him to it.

Speaker 10 (21:08):
Yeah, she appointed him almost like their music ministry leader basically.

Speaker 3 (21:13):
And it turns out that the follow her followers, well
you may get into that where they wind up actually
preferring David's form of teaching in his what's the word
I'm going for his charisma, you know.

Speaker 10 (21:29):
Yeah, And that's what we know about occult leaders too,
very charismatic. I mean, that's how they get so many
people to follow them, right. But yeah, I mean David
Krash at this point still Vernon Howell, he had not
changed his name just yet. And I want to say
he actually changed his name because they were called the
branch Davidians. So he changed his name to David.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
Yes, he changed his name because it's biblical, yes.

Speaker 10 (21:55):
And I mean the line of David is very important
in Christianity, right, So, I mean that's that's that's why
he picked the name David, who changed to Let's see. Yeah,
there's a book called The Devil's Party, and that book

(22:18):
claims that David Koresh an affair with Lois and the
Korush claimed that God wanted him to father a child
with her, who he said would become quote the chosen One.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
The child of David n and Lois the chosen yes, okay,
And in nineteen eighty four, like remember early eighties is
when he moved to Waco.

Speaker 10 (22:40):
And joined the Branch Davidians and everything. So nineteen eighty
four he actually marries Rachel Jones, who was a member
of the Branch Davidian sub sect. She was only fourteen
at the time. Oh really, she was fourteen years old
when they got married. They ended up having two children,
Cyrus and Star. And that's when about the time he

(23:04):
began teaching his own biblical interpretations in lectures that he
called the Serpent's Route, which actually caused a lot of
unrest among the Brench Davidians, like the older members and stuff,
the ones that had been there before him. Basically, a
leadership dispute began between David and George Roden, who was

(23:26):
Benjamin's son, the founder's son. He was expected to take
over the sect, and he clashed with David.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
So Is Benjamin Lois's son.

Speaker 10 (23:39):
Yeah, Lois and Benjamin were married, Benjamin had died, Lois
was his widow. Their son was George, and he's the
one who clashed with David Krish over leadership because George
was expected to take over naturally being Benjamin and Lewis's son,
and then David is now in. So this feud reached

(24:04):
a boiling point after George Rodden accused David Koresh or
setting a fire that destroyed an administration building, and Koresh
claimed the fire was a judgment of God upon the set.
So I mean we were already seeing arson, which is
a big deal. And for his own personal gain too,

(24:27):
like he needed some kind of sign quote unquote from
God that he was supposed to be the actual leader
of the branch Davidians, you know, and.

Speaker 3 (24:35):
Not the founder's son, not the heir apparent.

Speaker 10 (24:40):
Right, But George Roden actually did seem to win the
leadership dispute after he and his supporters drove David Koresh
out of the Mount Carmel Center at gunpoint. So I
mean they pulled guns on the sky and told him
basically get the hell out.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
So at this point, how does he come back in
and take control.

Speaker 10 (25:03):
He actually did still have followers. They resided in eastern
Texas for a while, and they lived under very difficult
conditions because I mean they, I mean most of them
didn't have jobs, They had no income. Basically so it
was just it was rough for them. He David begins
recruiting other new followers, visited Israel actually, where he claimed

(25:26):
to have a vision revealing that he was the modern
day incarnation of the prophet Cyrus who liberated the Jews
from Babylon right. And then in nineteen eighty seven, he
in a handful of his devotees returned to Waco heavily armed.
So this was like a takeover essentially.

Speaker 3 (25:46):
So he'd come back a hostile takeover because he felt
he had had a hostile takeover uprising for him, so
he was gonna come back and redo it.

Speaker 10 (25:55):
Yeah, I mean there actually was a gunfire, a gunfight
that broke out and George Roden, the one that was
in the dispute for the leadership and everything with him,
He was shot but survive. Koresh and his crew were
actually tried for attempted murder, but he received a mistrial
and his followers were quitted, so Roden, George Roden was

(26:19):
later arrested for the nineteen eighty nine murder of waymandl Ador,
who George Roden claimed that Koresh sent to kill him.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
This is starting to sound like a soap opera.

Speaker 10 (26:31):
It really is. And to be fair, like when you
actually dive into the cults like this, a lot of them,
there's a whole lot of drama that leads up to
them coming into power. They're just always is now. Okay,
of course this may means that George Rohen is out
of the way, Koresh is now able to reclaim the

(26:52):
Mount Carmel Center and become the branch Davidian's leader. So
this happens like what about nineteen eighty nine, nineteen ninety.

Speaker 3 (27:02):
Just about right? Yeah, that sounds about right.

Speaker 10 (27:05):
And it's in nineteen ninety when he legally changed his
name from Vernon Howell to David Koresh. His new first name,
like I said earlier, was a reference to King David,
while his last name was Cyrus's biblical name. So I
mean his son and everything that he named Cyrus is
obviously named after this biblical character. But he chose the

(27:26):
name Koresh and everything because in the Bible that was
Cyrus's surname.

Speaker 3 (27:31):
Okay, I didn't know that Koresh.

Speaker 10 (27:35):
David Koresh's teachings included the practice of quote unquote spiritual weddings,
which enabled him to bed God chosen female followers of
all ages. Yeah, that he saw fit and he would
say that they were chosen by God to be his wive's.

Speaker 3 (27:52):
Basically, well, when he got when he's putting this f
in that ultimate of power of leadership authority, that he
says that authority is not his, that is coming from God.
So who is he to question it? Then? Who are

(28:12):
you to question? It? Is not his decisions as God
telling me what.

Speaker 10 (28:16):
Decision, and if you disagree with that, you're disagreeing with God.
But it was said that he had as many as
twenty wives, a lot of whom were under the age
of seventeen, which is a legal age of consent in Texas,
and fathered at least a dozen children that we know
of with members of the Branch Davidians that were not

(28:38):
his legal wife Rachel, who again remember he married when
she was fourteen years old.

Speaker 3 (28:46):
See that's I think this point this kind of stuff
out is important because I say, it.

Speaker 10 (28:51):
Absolutely goes to his character and him trying to exert
power over people younger than him, or that he saw
maybe beneath him.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
Yeah, I guess.

Speaker 10 (29:07):
Now when he became the leader of the Branch Davidians,
he claimed that he cracked the Code of the Seven
Seals in the Book of Revelation, which predicted events leading
to the apocalypse the in the end times. So he
told his followers that the Lord wielded that the Davidians
would build an army of God. This kind of goes

(29:29):
in now where they're starting to stockpile weapons because they
were preparing for a war that they were told was coming,
because the quote unquote Prophet of God was telling them
that he cracked the Code of Revelation and this is going.

Speaker 3 (29:43):
To happen, that it wouldn't be just would be a
physical liberal war.

Speaker 10 (29:50):
So yes, they started Stockholm weapons at this point. There
are some branch Davidians that claim the weapons were not
meant for defense but were sold at gunshoes generate revenue
for them.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
Now that's that is also how they got a lot
of their guns too, because that's legit. Yeah, they actually
was doing that to raise money and to help, you know,
support the compound.

Speaker 10 (30:12):
And now the compound was very, very kind of bare
bones that he built. It did not have heat, it
didn't have ac.

Speaker 3 (30:21):
Nothing like that plumbing.

Speaker 10 (30:23):
Yeah, so they didn't really need a ton of money
to maintain this place on the upkeep and everything. But
I mean, you know, obviously you still have to have money.
You still have to be able to feed these people,
to clothe them everything else.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
And they had well they they've done a lot of
farming and stuff too, says efficient stuff. But still they
had vehicles, they had every day needs, you know, gasoline,
all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 10 (30:51):
Say, you still, even no matter how off the grid
you think you are, you still have to have some
source of income.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
Yeah, And that was their main one was the gun
sales and firearms sales that they would buy and resell.
And they had a guy there local in Waco who
was their FFA dealer, and that's who they would go
through on a lot of it.

Speaker 10 (31:11):
And that's actually who the ATF contacted and everything that
was giving them a lot of information too.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
Yeah, because I.

Speaker 10 (31:19):
Mean it was the stockpiling of weapons and the selling
of weapons and everything that caught the attention of the
FBI to begin with.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
Well, what actually caught their attention was a ups a UPS.

Speaker 10 (31:33):
Delivery yeah, the grenade.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
Yeah, and they the UPS box fell out as the
guy was delivering, and it cracked open and it was
full of empty grenade.

Speaker 10 (31:43):
Cases which alarmed him.

Speaker 3 (31:45):
Right, because you can repack those things.

Speaker 10 (31:48):
So I say, he reported it to local authorities, who
then reached out to the ATF for that, and then
they started looking into I say, we've kind of now
given you all kind of the bare bones rundown of
the cult in general. This wasn't in Time's cult.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
And what another thing. But well, we'll talk about the
people that follow David. You mentioned he had his idyllic memory,
and he could and he was known for this as
he could preach and just barely ever actually reference or

(32:28):
go to it as his Bible. It would all be
from just his memory for hours and hours.

Speaker 1 (32:43):
I'm starting to think the bump Stocks and our favorite
conservative curmudgeon have the same Internet, because this is what
happens with him too. So hopefully they'll be back in
a moment. And they're still not back, So while I'm

(33:09):
waiting to see if I can find them, hang on,

(33:32):
I had something cute up just in case this happened,
and now I can't find it. Okay, so we'll just
use this one. Hang on, here's a little bit more
information about the cult itself. While I try to figure
out what happened to the bump stocks one moment. Please,

(33:57):
I thought I had that prettier than that, So let
me fix that.

Speaker 17 (34:08):
I know where I came from.

Speaker 10 (34:10):
I come from God. I didn't come from monkey.

Speaker 17 (34:13):
I came from God through Adam, through long lineage of man.
Did Jesus look like the son of God? No one
thought so except a few people.

Speaker 11 (34:24):
In his days days, David Koresh was a monster. He
was a highly unstable, self proclaimed messiah who used the
Bible and used scriptures as a weapon.

Speaker 14 (34:40):
It wore.

Speaker 9 (34:43):
The best world our coming.

Speaker 18 (34:46):
He always said that they would come for us, and
we were going to defend ourselves, and we were all.

Speaker 19 (34:51):
He was an embodiment of evil.

Speaker 16 (34:54):
He was the complete, absolute dictator of every facet of
everyone's life.

Speaker 10 (35:00):
That's rude.

Speaker 14 (35:01):
Do you think he's the son of good?

Speaker 3 (35:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 19 (35:03):
He had uncommonly powerful capacities to manipulate people and instantaneously
decay souls.

Speaker 20 (35:25):
When I first met David Koresh and summer of eighty one,
he had a car that he was driving.

Speaker 10 (35:31):
Is the lorregated to him.

Speaker 20 (35:34):
He was a very disheveled kind of Guy's poor. Obviously,
he didn't have a job, or at least a regular job.
He seemed lost looking for something, and he was kind
of a drifter.

Speaker 11 (35:47):
He had been born Vernon Howell.

Speaker 20 (35:49):
His mother was very young when he was born fifteen.

Speaker 11 (35:52):
He had a very troublesome childhood. His mother had been
married three times. He wasn't particularly the best student in school.
He had some learning disabilities.

Speaker 21 (36:04):
He was very cute, lovable little boy, very inquisitive, adoer.
He learned by doing things, tearing motors apart. First truck
I bought him. First thing he did was tear the
motor out, and that's way did the Bible. He searched
through and dissected like he did a motor or whatever.

Speaker 20 (36:23):
But by the age of fourteen he had memorized the
New Testament, and by the age of approximately eighteen he
had the Old Testament memorized.

Speaker 16 (36:32):
His mastery of the Bible stunned everyone.

Speaker 11 (36:37):
He claimed that when he was a child, God had
spoken to him and said, you're the chosen mind. You
are my Messiah.

Speaker 21 (36:46):
I think back then God was working on David to
preparing him for the work he had for him later on.

Speaker 11 (36:53):
Bonnie was a very very charming woman. She's very likable.
She took some blame for the way that he was
brought up in the fact that she was in a
couple of abusive relationships. But I think that somewhere inside
of her she was proud of the fact that he
made something of himself, even if it was infamous. He

(37:18):
made something out of himself.

Speaker 21 (37:27):
Back in the seventies, that's when all the guys want
to be rock stars. Yeah. I thought he had ability,
I really did. But as he got older, he wanted
not to be a rock star, but to be the
kind of music that would bring him to Christ.

Speaker 17 (37:44):
This is the Psalms forty five guitar. A lot of
people think it's kind of sensual, but no more es
sensual than the Song of Solomon.

Speaker 20 (37:53):
At this point in his life, he's believing that God
is speaking to him, as it led to him finding
the Branch Davidian group. The Branch Davidians are an offshoot
of the Seventh Adventist Church.

Speaker 11 (38:06):
The thing that made them different was they had a
doomsday prophecy. They believed that there would be an end
of the world and that when that time came, they
were going to die slowly.

Speaker 17 (38:16):
He became their leader and then eventually raised himself up
to the level of a prophet.

Speaker 20 (38:22):
One of the things about being a Branch Davidian, and
especially under David Koresh was you're supposed to separate yourself
from the world. The world is the sins, the flesh,
the desires of the world, and you're supposed to be spiritually.

Speaker 18 (38:36):
There was no running water, no heat, no electricity of
any kind. We had to go to Bible study three
times a day.

Speaker 20 (38:46):
Women had to wear long blouses covering their rear ends
and no makeup ever, no jewelry.

Speaker 11 (38:53):
Why did you come here because I heard there was
something here that I wanted.

Speaker 9 (38:57):
To listen to.

Speaker 6 (38:59):
Divid can expling this bottle better than anyone that I've
ever met.

Speaker 10 (39:04):
I'm here because of the truth.

Speaker 3 (39:06):
What is the truth?

Speaker 10 (39:07):
Well, you have to find on yourself.

Speaker 11 (39:09):
So Marguerite the Vega was a socialite from Hong Kong.

Speaker 6 (39:13):
Before they joined the Branch Davidians.

Speaker 10 (39:15):
These people had a variety of life. They came from
all walks of life.

Speaker 18 (39:22):
How long she was very glamorous Boways had names and
going out and led the high life, I guess. And
then after she joined with Vernon and she just sort
of just let go.

Speaker 14 (39:37):
You should the Son of God, I hope he is.

Speaker 18 (39:41):
I could see that there was a struggle. She wanted
to believe, but I knew that she wasn't really sure.

Speaker 20 (39:49):
He was polarizing because he's what he's doing is so radical.
He truly believed he had a mission from God.

Speaker 16 (39:55):
He told him where to sleep, who to sleep with,
what to work, what not to do. He's the lord
of the manner in every sense of the word.

Speaker 22 (40:02):
He had absolute, absolute authority over the air they breathed,
over literally the food that they ate every day.

Speaker 20 (40:15):
He taught that we should not eat any dairy products.
And his reasoning was, well, dairy products are made from milk,
which is his baby food. Milk is what you drink
when you're a baby, and we're adults.

Speaker 10 (40:26):
Now you could have apples and bananas, but not bananas
and oranges together. There's a lot of food combined.

Speaker 3 (40:47):
How long we talked?

Speaker 10 (40:48):
Yeah, can everybody hear us?

Speaker 23 (40:50):
Now?

Speaker 10 (40:50):
We're dropping out again, especially with our WiFi here lately,

(41:26):
So okay, I'm hearing us on the computer now. Yeah,

(41:53):
there was definitely an echo, because, yeah, where did we
drop out for you guys, cause I was still talking.

(42:17):
I don't even know what all y'all heard. But that
does give me a chance to get my books. Yeah,

(43:00):
we're trying to test out now and see who can
hear us.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
I'll start talking.

Speaker 10 (43:20):
Well, I don't know if anybody can hear us right now. Okay, Rick,
did you catch when we dropped out? I don't know
what all I was saying that might not have got heard.

Speaker 3 (43:36):
Okay, they can still go ahead.

Speaker 10 (43:39):
Okay, I hope there's nine an echo we got the
computer turned down the volume on that off. I don't
know where we dropped out and everything, but I was
saying that. One of the main things we've discussed in
episode one and two of the Cult series is how
cult leaders overwhelmingly intend to have all the traits of

(44:01):
narcissistic personality disorder. It's a pervasive pattern of grandiosity either
in fantasy or behavior, the need for admiration, lack of empathy,
which begins in early adulthood, which obviously we've seen with
David koresh here, Vernon Howell. Narcissistic personality disorder I've got

(44:25):
my dsm OUT is actually diagnosed by five or more
of the following traits. So one, you have to have
a grandiose sense of self importance, or like example, you
exaggerate your achievements and talents. You expect to be recognized
as superior without the commiserate achievements to go along with that.

(44:47):
So basically, you want to be recognized as superior without
actually doing anything to earn that. You have to be
preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or
ideal love. You have to believe that you are special
and unique and can only be understood by, or should
associate with other special or high status people or institutions.

(45:12):
The excessive admiration you require that again a sense of entitlement,
which like unreasonable expectations, especially favorable treatment, or automatic compliance
with your expectations. And again we see that with cult
leaders overwhelmingly, the automatic compliance because anybody who does not
automatically comply and just go along with whatever you're teaching,

(45:37):
it's you are pretty severely punished for that in a cult,
because the punishment is used as another tool of almost brainwashing.
I guess number six is interpersonally exploitative, which means you

(45:59):
take advantage of others to achieve your own ends. And yeah,
that's again heavily, heavily we see this in cult leaders
because absolutely exploit their followers for their own means the
lack of empathy, which again you see with other things
like antisocial personality disorder even borderline personality disorder. Sometimes you're

(46:21):
unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs
of others. Number eight, you're often envious of others or
believe that others are envious of you. And number nine,
you show arrogant, haughty behaviors and attitudes and everything, which yes,
see arrogance again is very very prevalent in cult leaders.

(46:47):
And yeah, we've talked about this on the other two
episodes in this series, but it's always worth just kind
of touch back, touch base and everything with it again
because as we've talked about David Koresh, you see all
of these traits come out. And I mean, I'm not

(47:07):
a doctor or anything, but to be diagnosed with narcissistic
personality disorder, you have to have five with more of
the traits that I listed, and I think he hits
all nine points.

Speaker 3 (47:19):
I think hes all nine points.

Speaker 10 (47:22):
And I mean you see that with other ones like
the Jim Jones and you know Yahweh, Ben Yahweh and
Charlie Manson. All the other ones were gonna touch on
eventually in the series, but this is one hundred percent.
I would say that each and every one of them
could absolutely be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.

Speaker 3 (47:48):
That's something that all of them will keep.

Speaker 10 (47:52):
And you're gonna to turn the volume down on the computer.

Speaker 3 (48:04):
The computer just dropped out again to the top on
the phone.

Speaker 10 (48:07):
Well, I would just say, now at this point, let's
stop trying to use the computer because I'm on the phone,
so stop trying to fight with it. But the computer

(48:28):
is not going to work, so we're just gonna stick
with the phone.

Speaker 3 (48:30):
Then, were you muted?

Speaker 10 (48:36):
No, I'm live again.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
So we've talked about David Krash enough. I think again.
We apologize for all the craziness. Thank you Rick once
again for running video or some of the videos and
stuff for us.

Speaker 10 (48:51):
I'm trying to keep this going. It's on windstreams end.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
What's crazy is it's been fine all day long. Then
it started up again for some reason dropping out so
I'm not sure, but anyways, thank you for bearing with us.
We apologize once again, but we're just going to do
it this way and I think we'll be fine. We
won't have it as much we'll have to do it

(49:16):
by Rick will have to do it by texting the
chat back and forth because I can't I can't really
hear you. So we're gonna have to go that route.
But anyways, David koresh very charismatic, wonderful teacher. I mean,
say anything you want to about him, but he was
a great teacher as far as being able to lead

(49:40):
a classroom. I guess to keep your attention.

Speaker 10 (49:44):
When you think of a good teacher and everything, it
doesn't necessarily mean that what they're teaching is good, just
that they're good at it. Yeah, I mean I think
that's where you're going with that absolutely.

Speaker 3 (49:55):
Good at it, not good person.

Speaker 10 (49:58):
He's very obviously twisting the Bible, which is not good.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
It is saying that as far as knowing scriptures, the
devil and the demons know all the scripture.

Speaker 10 (50:11):
That's say, they can quote it just as easily as Yeah.
But I mean, yeah, he was a good teacher. I
mean that's the reason he basically built an entire compound
full of people who were willing to die. Yeah. So
I mean a good teacher, just not good good.

Speaker 3 (50:36):
What he's teaching wasn't good, But he's doing a good
job at.

Speaker 10 (50:39):
It, right, and again this was it was amazing that
he got all of these people and everything. But I
think we've kind of covered they were an in times
apocalyptic cult I would say subsect of another thing, but
that actually kind to legitimize what he was teaching, and

(51:02):
that wasn't legit at all. So yeah, I mean absolutely
a cult and everything. He just he used legitimate religion
and everything, and a legitimate denomination as basically his springing
off point. Yeah, they absolutely do. I mean there's usually

(51:23):
always one denomination or another that they come from that
they pervert.

Speaker 3 (51:29):
You net show. I don't know exactly, but I'm gonna
find out which one is. Like he's a Baptist denomination
that most of them come from.

Speaker 10 (51:38):
You know, we can look at the more prominent ones
and everything and just kind of see if there is
some kind of common denominator there, at least as far
as the denominations. I mean, not that it says anything
negative or positive about that denomination. I mean, they're all
legit to me, but they all, you know, typically stay

(52:00):
in line with the Bible. But these people have like
taken whatever they learned in their specific denomination. They grew
up in or whatever, and they've perverted it, yeah, for
their own game, Okay, I mean, because that's ultimately what
the cult is about, is power, power and control.

Speaker 3 (52:21):
I wondered to see me like Islamic cults probly just
the Christian based ones. You know that.

Speaker 10 (52:31):
There would be somebody.

Speaker 3 (52:32):
In the chat will probably know and send something up.

Speaker 10 (52:35):
So we'll be asking later to like if y'all know
any calls you want to hear us talk about everything,
just like, leave us comments, shoot us a message something.

Speaker 3 (52:43):
But our newest lawyer in the group says cult leaders
need to charismatic personalities generally. I think absolutely that's true.
Then that cares that charismatic part of them is really
what sets the hook.

Speaker 10 (52:57):
You know, absolutely. I mean you have to have the
charisma and everything, otherwise people wouldn't follow you, you know.

Speaker 3 (53:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (53:06):
And I mean even Charlie Manson, is bat Bonker's crazy
as he was, was absolutely charismatic in that way. Yeah,
and that appealed to the other people that ended up
following him and doing his dirty work.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
But now you got to have it, you got to
That's one of the key ingredients to make your work,
you know.

Speaker 10 (53:29):
I mean when I've seen, and you know, there's so
many videos and everything, especially Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charlie Manson.
You see all these videos of them and interviews and everything,
and you can absolutely like the charisma jumps out at you.
Like even then, even us, it's fascinating to us, like
we're not going to buy into what they're selling, right,

(53:52):
but it is absolutely fascinating. And for me, like the
psychology aspect of it, I'm like, I'm sitting here with
like a pad and a paper and everything going okay,
tell me more like I'm almost like psychoanalyzing them from
YouTube clips and you know, news interviews and everything.

Speaker 3 (54:11):
But see, I've always said that when it comes to
a cult like that, I can fall I could see
myself falling into it to a certain point. Yeah, and
you know, at least, you know, I'm familiar enough with
the Bible to know that, hey, when things start going sideways,
but especially when it comes to like, oh, well that's
let's all the men get castrated and give me your wife. No,

(54:35):
that's gonna be the red flag. That's going to be
the end of it.

Speaker 10 (54:37):
And that's actually okay, I'm glad you mentioned that because
in the branch Davidians. Under David Koresh, the men were
commanded to be celibate. But he could take any one
of your wives and you want to. Yeah, But the
men were commanded to be celibate. They could not have
any kind of sexual relations at all.

Speaker 3 (54:59):
Not with their own wives. Yeah, nothing at all.

Speaker 10 (55:02):
So I mean, I'm glad you brought that up, because, yeah,
that tends to be a thing. And I think that's
another aspect of the control and the power that they
have over their followers because a lot of these women
and these girls go along with it. Oh, they're absolutely
victimized by this, but in a way that I mean
in just the bare bone sense of the word, they

(55:25):
are consenting to this, and that they're agreeing to it.
They've been coerced into agreeing with it, basically, and they
think it's their own idea and everything, which obviously is
not consent to any rational person, but in their minds,
like they've agreed to this, they've consented to this.

Speaker 21 (55:42):
There.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
Well, was that that you mentioned earlier. I think we
may have been dead air. I don't know, but that
one woman was in the interviews where she said that
if David Koresh would have asked for my daughter, Yeah, I.

Speaker 10 (55:56):
Would have given her to him. Yeah, And this was
a twelve year old girl at the time that they
were discussing. Her daughter was twelve years old.

Speaker 3 (56:03):
Because he had them convinced that he was the son.

Speaker 10 (56:07):
Of God and that if God willed that he had
their daughters, who were they to deny him that?

Speaker 3 (56:15):
Yeah, they wasn't denying him, They was denying God by
telling David.

Speaker 10 (56:20):
No, well huh yeah, Tim, Yeah. The men were not
allowed any kind of intimate sexual relations with anybody. They
were commanded to be. David was not commanded handed to

(56:42):
be celibate.

Speaker 3 (56:44):
He was supposed to population.

Speaker 10 (56:52):
He was supposed to create new generations and everything from
his his line.

Speaker 3 (57:00):
And then again, that's a common thread with a lot
of these cult leaders.

Speaker 10 (57:05):
Is, especially male cult leaders, is the sexual exploitation of
the female members, regardless of their age. I think for
the most part, you say that they would at least
wait till puberty. But I mean you got to think
that's coming up in twelve years old for a lot
of girls. Yeah, and like for us rational like you know,

(57:27):
are the tiny times fifteen years with anybody like if
our astor asked us like, hey, you know, God told
me I should marry your daughter. We're going to be
like no, and we're leaving that church, like we're getting
out and taking our kid with us, Like it's just
not happening. But again, uh, and I don't. I don't
mean to say this like we're better than anybody or anything,

(57:49):
but there are just a certain type of people that
are more susceptible to hearing that kind of thing because
a lot of the other stuff that this personaying is
everything that they want to hear, So they're willing to
do these things that they would normally find extreme just
to go along with this.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
Yeah, and what you said in earlier episodes, it's not
something that is immediate to It builds to this point
foundation work first to get Yeah, didn't he.

Speaker 10 (58:20):
Didn't come into or with the branch Davidians and everything
by saying outright, just right off the bat, okay, your
daughters from puberty on uppermand He didn't say that at first,
this was a gradual thing. He had to establish embodiment
of God. Basically, he had to establish himself that way
at first for those people to then go along with

(58:44):
the rest of it, which I mean again, amazing to me.
But there's also that party it kind of gets it,
that understands how somebody can be suckered into that, you know,
because like we said, I mean, any one of us
at any point can be sub object to something like this, right.

(59:11):
It just depends on what they're preaching, what their pros.

Speaker 3 (59:17):
You see it on a smaller scale with like scams.
You see people scams sometimes if they it's like if
they are able to stop and re center and get
out of that mindset once it starts rolling, usually they
can see like, oh, this is a scam, right, But
if they can't ever get out of that that initial

(59:39):
tunnel vision, they can't get out of that, then they
fall for it. And I think I think Coults are
just saying big scam. I mean they.

Speaker 10 (59:50):
Basically are, Yeah, because all of your money, all of
your worldly possessions to this one person, then they can,
and especially if you're a woman, completely say to you
and you can't say no to them. Absolutely is one
big scam.

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
And but the thing is, I think it's the long game.

Speaker 10 (01:00:10):
Oh yeah, it's one hundred long game. But I wonder
how many of the cult leaders they were preaching.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
Too, if they actually convinced themselves of it. I think
the percentage is going to be a lot smaller than
I think.

Speaker 10 (01:00:26):
So because I think like Jim Jones, I think he
absolutely knew what he was doing, and he knew it
wasn't biblical, but he just you know, people were He
was rich because of these people, because they were signing
over everything that they had to him.

Speaker 3 (01:00:44):
I guess they would probably have to believe.

Speaker 10 (01:00:46):
It to stint, otherwise it wouldn't be convincing.

Speaker 3 (01:00:51):
Yeah, well, was kind of thinking out loud now that
of our series. Let's look at just the leaders or
individually and how they compared to each other, and then
how did they end Do they actually buy into their
own hot or was it all scam from the beginning?
And how did they end up? You know?

Speaker 10 (01:01:08):
See, I wonder because I keep going back to Jim
Jones too, especially in the context of David Koresh like
I think they were pretty similar. They were both kind
of the apocalyptic in times cult. That's how Jim Jones
convinced all those people, you know, over nine hundred of
them to kill themselves because it was the end of
the world. Then it was in Thoms right then. I

(01:01:32):
mean he was a coward. He took the easy way.

Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
That's exactly why I want to look at the leaders.
If they bought into it, and they actually believe it
one hundred percent, they're going to go out the way
they tell their followers to go out. That don't happen
very often, no, not, So that's kind of I would
like to look into that too later on to see.

Speaker 10 (01:01:51):
Yeah, absolutely, because the synod poisoning not a pleasant way
to go. And I think he saw a lot of
his followers after they started drinking it and everything, saw
the struggle and everything, and that's why he had one
of his sick of fans and everything in one of
his right hand dude shoot him. Yeah, so it was
quick and easy for him.

Speaker 3 (01:02:12):
Well, I think speaking of this, didn't they find Kuresh's
body with the dungeons towards the front of the building there?

Speaker 10 (01:02:20):
I mean, there were a lot of people in the
branch Davidians after the seat age and everything that we're
found with gunshot ones to their heads.

Speaker 23 (01:02:30):
Talking about I think I think I think he he
was one that was found with a bullet wound to
his head.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
I wonder if he one of his followers or was
out from outside that.

Speaker 10 (01:02:44):
I mean, now we're into the second hour, so we
can actually see well.

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
I want to talk over we actually because everybody about
the siege obviously, and.

Speaker 10 (01:02:53):
We know what led up to it. Again, it was
the weapons stockpiling, selling the weapons and everything for revenue,
and that's what that's how well, yeah, that's how they
caught the attention of the a t F and like
the FBI and everything.

Speaker 3 (01:03:07):
Well, well, yeah, I guess I'm going moving to that.
There is something I want to touch on on too. Well,
we do that at the end. So we know about
the grenades, the grenade or like what are telling the casings.

Speaker 10 (01:03:26):
I guess I think for.

Speaker 3 (01:03:30):
Yeah, they're empty grenade cases and that he had bold
and I'm assuming he was going to pack them up,
gonna make paperweights out of him. So that gets the
attention of the a TF. They heard the estimated over
on what they're thinking just from from doing research and

(01:03:51):
and investigating the branch Davidians buying and selling at gun
shows and f F a dealer talking to him.

Speaker 10 (01:04:04):
They had information that a lot of the these rifles
that they were getting were being converted. So there's the
illegal weapons chargers.

Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
They had tracking his banking accounts and stuff like that,
tracking down orders and seeing what I was buying, and
they found uh stuff automatic. So that's what really set
them off to thinking there may be illegal guns, which.

Speaker 10 (01:04:31):
Justified illegal conversions and justified.

Speaker 3 (01:04:35):
Them getting the the warrants, the warrants and stuff to
search them out. So they are talking to the f
f A dealer just because it has to go through
and everything, and they realized, Okay, Koresh, they don't have
the proper license for these conversion kits, but yet he
bought them.

Speaker 10 (01:04:53):
They don't have that that ATF tax down the tax
down from the nf A, which perally side note, I
think he should be repealed. But that's a whole other topic.

Speaker 3 (01:05:07):
So they are talking talking to this FFA dealer and
I can't remember his name, and then he says, well,
why don't we just find out real quick, and he
David Koresh on the phone with ATF in at the
guy's desk. He's got He says, David, I got some

(01:05:28):
ATF agents up here there. Come by and check them out.
Dave Koresh tells the the FFA dealer, Yeah, send them
on over here. I'll show them everything. I've got Are
they there, Yes, David, they're here. Well, hand on the phone.
I'll be glad to talk to them. The ATF agents
refuse to talk to David Koresh that day.

Speaker 10 (01:05:48):
Yeah, everything to me, everything from the very beginning, the
way the ATF and the authorities handled this, every single
move they made was the wrong move to make.

Speaker 3 (01:05:59):
Now, again, I want to preface this, we are separating
these two parts of this story to both of these
things can be true and are true. David Krash was
a piece, it's a crap. His follower words of brainwashing,
and I feel sorry for him. They were not good people.

Speaker 10 (01:06:22):
Period of the abuse and everything like that. I mean,
these people were absolutely victim.

Speaker 3 (01:06:27):
Victims, especially the children's stuffing, the color. David Kresh was
out bad ATF. The way they handled this, the way
that is just momentally bad. Looking back on it now,
this is there's a reason why FBI A Yeah, stuff
like that. This there's a reason why we do things

(01:06:50):
the way we do it now and Waco and the
branch of incons is step number.

Speaker 10 (01:06:55):
One on one of the big things that actually led
up to all when the A was going to go
execute the warrants, for the illegal weapons and everything. David
Koresh was actually tipped off about this. ATF knew it
better delay in it. Instead of being off, they decided
to go forward to execute the the warrant anyway, knowing

(01:07:24):
that this man and now knew that they were coming.
So Koresh was able to make preparations and everything. And
then there's what I per only call the modern day
shot heard around the world. There was one shot fire
after the ATF and the FBI all the other warders
arrived and everything, and nobody is sure if it came

(01:07:46):
from the compound or from the authorities, but one shot
was all.

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
Well. The way they got tipped off is the day
of the raid, which is February twenty eighth, ninety three.
News reporters had showed.

Speaker 10 (01:08:02):
Up on the broadcast.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
Yeah, the news reporters had showed up on the site
trying to find a compound and just was driving around,
wandering around with their cameras and stuff. They found a postman,
a mailman. Why and it says, well, we heard that
there's gonna be a big police presidence out here today.
We want to get set up so we don't miss anything.

(01:08:27):
That mail person was a member of the branch davidians
Not only was he a member, but he was David
Koresh's brother in law. So he goes back to the
compound that tells David like, hey, the police are coming.
So they had almost an hour to get everything locked
down and ready for the the surprise.

Speaker 10 (01:08:47):
The authorities were actually informed okay, yes, they know that
you're coming now. And instead of saying, okay, we need
to back off, we need to like regroup, we need
to rethink this, like how are we going to do
this instead of doing all that, which a national response,
they decided no, no, no, We're gonna go ahead and

(01:09:10):
go on with this raid.

Speaker 3 (01:09:14):
Right, yeah, there. The original r was going to be
a what's the word, uh a uh right, they were
gonna they called it the trojan horror trailers on them
and then and the all the agents they were going

(01:09:36):
to pull up to the compound like they were lost
ranchers and say and then just basically hop out like
the whole trojan horse and in surprise at prise. Well,
once the surprise is ruined, instead of like you said,

(01:10:00):
calling off, they move forward. And they doubled down on
moving forward too. They make the which it turns out
to be a pretty fatal mistake of instinctstead of down
in the ball full on rush, they decide they're going
to to move forward very this compound, uh, no matter what,

(01:10:27):
and they's going to take him out.

Speaker 5 (01:10:29):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:10:30):
They had an arrest warrant for day David koresh and
they had the one guns. They had two different warrants.

Speaker 10 (01:10:40):
Yeah, it's just overwhelmingly weapons charges to not for anything
like you know, child sex abuse or anything like that.
That it was illegal weapons charges.

Speaker 3 (01:10:52):
It was one percent. There was no nothing else I
was looking at at this point, And they had multortunities
to arrest David koresh before this day. That in interviews
familiar with the time and what was going on, that
if they would have arrested David then then they think

(01:11:13):
the other branch of Vedians would have stepped down, you know,
they would have allowed the search for their weapons. They
would have And I think that's reasonable.

Speaker 10 (01:11:22):
I mean, if David koresh Is had been arrested peacefully
outside of the compound and everything, I don't think that
they would have put up any resistance when they came
to the compound. Then to investigate.

Speaker 3 (01:11:34):
It would definitely be it would happen. It would have
to be what would David tell him to do. If
would he accept the arrest and say, hey, guys, we
got women and children in here, just do what they say,
everybody thinking, be fine. He could tell them to resist nothing.
They would have resisted. But from the audio that I've heard,
and everybody else out there has heard it too, from

(01:11:56):
the compound, the phone calls and all that, they were
consistently saying, call this off. We have women and children here,
Call this off.

Speaker 10 (01:12:04):
Yeah. They none one one calls uh from that day
and you can find all these on like YouTube and
stuff like that. But every nine one one call, to
my knowledge, on February twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three, every
nine one one call came from inside the compound against
the authorities, and they were telling them we have women

(01:12:25):
and children in here, you know, tell them to call
it all off.

Speaker 5 (01:12:28):
L Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:12:31):
The guy that in the phone call the nine one one,
he keeps calling on the phone. Wayne. Now you mentioned
David Koresh's original name was Vernon Wayne Howell. No Vernon Wayne.

Speaker 10 (01:12:42):
Howell, I think so.

Speaker 3 (01:12:44):
Yeah, So I wonder if the Wayne on the nine
one one call.

Speaker 10 (01:12:48):
Maybe if they were referring to him or if it.

Speaker 3 (01:12:50):
Was Wayne, was this another follower. I don't know, but
I just thought that was interested and I don't know
the answer to that.

Speaker 10 (01:12:57):
Yeah, I mean, and that's what I think is heartbreaking
because nine one one calls were overwhelmingly from the branch
Davidians themselves.

Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
Yeah, they was called a nine one one against the
ATF and the local.

Speaker 10 (01:13:07):
Laws and telling them we have women and children in here,
and again we have no idea, Like even nowadays, nobody
knows who fired that first shot, but there was one
gunshot that set it all off.

Speaker 3 (01:13:22):
Well, I'm going to step out and say I know
who did it. I believe one hundred percent that the
ATF and FBI did it.

Speaker 10 (01:13:29):
I think so because they were in some of the interviews.
There's if you watched a show on Discovery Plus or
the ID channel called How It Really Happened. Yes, they
have a couple of episodes on Waco, and they actually
interviewed some of the people that were involved in the
siege that survived it, and they were saying, no, we
actually think it probably did come from our side because

(01:13:52):
there were dogs roaming around, and they thought that one
of their own guys you know from the ATF or
FBI or somebody shot at one of these dogs. Yeah,
you know, and they think that that's what kicked it off.

Speaker 3 (01:14:06):
Well, we know that the branch of Medians had time
to prep. They had riflemen and guns, gunmen in the
windows on the second floors and stuff. They were ready
to defend themselves, right, they were ready to war. Every
one of the survivors that's interviewed swear up and down
that we, the branch Obedians, did not fire first. Now,

(01:14:31):
the ATF and FBI, I say, well, we might have
fired first. Oh yeah. To me, that's them going like,
oh yeah, we fired first.

Speaker 10 (01:14:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:39):
And now they're going to say that shot a dog first. Again,
I don't believe them.

Speaker 10 (01:14:44):
They mean, it could very well be possible that they
shot at a dog, but I think just the dogs
roaming around, because there were a bunch of dogs that
roam that property. To me, that just doesn't seem logical
because there's no there's no reports of any of these
dogs being aggressive, you know, towards anybody.

Speaker 3 (01:15:06):
So well, well even nowadays you talk about the means
all time days. Yeah, so it doesn't surprise me at all.
But yeah, there's there's no doubt that ATF or FBI
shot first.

Speaker 10 (01:15:17):
Yeah, that day, day one of the siege, February twenty eighth,
nineteen ninety three, six people were killed day, and I
think all six of them were ATF agents.

Speaker 3 (01:15:26):
They were I thought they were six Branch Sdavidians and
four ATF agent shot.

Speaker 10 (01:15:33):
Maybe. Well, I've got six names here that died on
February twenty eighth.

Speaker 3 (01:15:38):
Branch David Davidican.

Speaker 10 (01:15:41):
These are, yeah, so six of the Branch Davidians and
four ATF.

Speaker 3 (01:15:45):
Eight ATF agents, six Branch Savidians.

Speaker 10 (01:15:48):
But it was Winston Blake who was twenty eight, Peter
Gent twenty four, Peter Hippsman twenty eight, Perry Jones sixty four,
Michael Schroeder twenty nine, and Jaden Windell was third. Before
those were the Branch Davidians that died that first day,
day one of the siege.

Speaker 3 (01:16:05):
YEP.

Speaker 10 (01:16:06):
I don't have the ATF agent's names pulled up or anything,
but for the entire in memoriam that we usually always do,
I'll have that listed on our on our show page
on X tonight at the end, only going to list
off the children's names because I mean there's eighty people

(01:16:27):
I think total, that died in the course of all
of this. Twenty five of them were children, and I
just don't have to go through all eighty names live,
so I'll post them. But I do want the children's names,
because I mean, y'all know me when it comes to kids.

Speaker 3 (01:16:42):
So we'll post the We'll make it into tweet on
the front for Springes page, ye and you can find
it there. So where we at day twenty first, February
twenty eighth.

Speaker 10 (01:16:56):
Right, Yeah, a shot heard around the world that started
it all. And what ten people died that day? Yeah,
then the siege starts.

Speaker 3 (01:17:04):
Really that's when it really sets in that day, and
then it's the fifty one days yea.

Speaker 10 (01:17:10):
The rest of them, the rest of the victims were
killed on April nineteenth of nineteen ninety three, So that
was the last fifty one days.

Speaker 3 (01:17:20):
Well, I think was a big surge day there.

Speaker 10 (01:17:22):
Then when the fire and everything happened.

Speaker 3 (01:17:26):
Yeah, well up to that point, they had done, like
I thing it was on day three. Koresh, working with negotiators,
says that if you'll play, he has this one hour
long sermon basically that he wanted to play on air

(01:17:46):
on the radio stations and that would explain everything he says,
and it will open the seals and explain the seals.
So he wanted that played, and if they would play it,
then he would really everybody will walk out peacefully. That'll
be the end of it. So that's taking that's running

(01:18:08):
this right now. They get hold of the locals. Locals
get a hold of a couple of Christian FM stations
in the area. They hate the recording of this one
hour long things like fifty eight minute long sermon, and
they broadcast it live over their ways to get his
message out that day. Well, of course, David backs out

(01:18:33):
of it at that point, no response, no reply, nothing.
After it has been played, and one of the apostles.

Speaker 10 (01:18:42):
Of David's followers, I guess.

Speaker 3 (01:18:44):
He calls back out and says that David Koresh has
to convene with the Lord and find out what God
wants him to do next. So he backs out of
that deal. They play his message and then he reneeds
on it and says, no, we're not going to do
it now. We're not gonna let anybody out. So that
set a fire under a lot of very tent situation

(01:19:07):
already and I think that really started escalating from that point.
It started escalating even more of that because he at
that point he kind of like, well he pissed him off.

Speaker 10 (01:19:20):
Well, now they know that whatever he promises, even if
you give him his end of it, he's not going
to give your end of it. Like he's we now
know this about him.

Speaker 3 (01:19:32):
Seem like it's not like he can't be trustworthy now,
So that then that's set off. Like day three of
the Seeds and he was doing videos inside.

Speaker 10 (01:19:44):
Can I just point out Alan Ray's comment, Man Waco
seemed like just a few days ago. Y'all keep in
mind in nineteen ninety three, I was six years old, right.

Speaker 3 (01:19:55):
But the so this sets off a bad president from
uh from the branch Davidians. And I'm not making its
uses for the ft behind the ATF or anything like that.
I'm just trying to make sense of why it escalated
us got.

Speaker 10 (01:20:15):
To that point. I mean, because you would think like
these people ultimately were pretty peaceful. I mean, they were
preparing for like an end times battle and everything, but
it wasn't one of those things where they thought the
government was going to like implement it, and they were
planning to overthrow the government or anything like. There was

(01:20:37):
no like direct threat to anybody. They were, Yeah, they
were stockpiling weapons. They might have been converting some of
them to fol auto we don't know. But at the
same time, there was no direct threat to anybody here.

Speaker 3 (01:20:49):
The people of the town and Laco and all the
area said they didn't have a problem with the banks, Davidians.
They wouldn't cause any trouble with anybody.

Speaker 10 (01:20:57):
Yeah, I mean, they weren't preaching that it's this certain
group of people that we need to get our weapons
and now we need to go after. They didn't have
anybody's specific name, There was no specific target. They were
just preparing for a vague end times battle like for
whenever it was to come. And this like, yes, it's

(01:21:19):
batshit crazy to me, but in.

Speaker 3 (01:21:20):
This attack from the ATF and FBI, from the government,
because they was bringing in helicopters and tanks and all that,
I mean, the whole nine yards. So this actually this
fueled David's fires to say, see see here's the proof.
It's beginning.

Speaker 10 (01:21:37):
I say, now it's starting.

Speaker 3 (01:21:39):
There are the armies of Babylon coming upon us. This
is it it started.

Speaker 10 (01:21:46):
Yeah, I mean it's just I mean, obviously, I think
David Crush was in his right mind and he knew,
you know, there was not going to be like an
End Times or whatever. I don't think he understood that
they would eventually be targeted for you know, illegal weapons
or anything. But when that did happen, he was like,
here's how I can use that. This is exactly what

(01:22:08):
I've been preaching to you people. You see, it's now happening.
And now anybody who might have been on the fence
at this point is probably like, oh crap. He was right,
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:22:18):
I mean, they're not going to let, you know, something
like this go to waste. They're gonna twist it and
turn it and use it.

Speaker 10 (01:22:24):
Never let a good crisis go to waste. I mean, okay,
let's just the let me just go ahead and state
the obvious here. It was the it was a democratic
administration behind that, and it was a democratic president who said,
never let a good crisis go to waste. So I
just needed to point that out. There's absolutely no correlation there.

(01:22:47):
I just think that's.

Speaker 3 (01:22:47):
Funny Winter Obama actually said that, Yeah.

Speaker 10 (01:22:52):
Yeah, And I mean you even mentioned like this was
Janet Reno under Bill Clinton under his administration. She was
the one you see those pictures of baby Ili and
Gonzalez screaming while a man in like swat gear in
an assault rifle is pulling him out of the arms
of his family member and everything to deport this child. So,

(01:23:15):
I mean, Janet Reno I don't think had the best
track record for decision making for anything like this. So,
I mean, I don't know. It's just worth noting that
these were like two huge scandals under one person, you know,

(01:23:39):
like Alan.

Speaker 3 (01:23:40):
Here saying Waco was the first hint that the FBI
may not have the best interest actual on mind. Yeah,
that's my started questions. And actually Waco not just for
Alan here, it's that's really what set off everybody.

Speaker 10 (01:23:52):
Looking at That's okay, we talked about setting people off.
It was Waco that inspired the Oklahoma City bombing.

Speaker 3 (01:24:00):
Yeah, Timothy McVay.

Speaker 10 (01:24:01):
He directly sighted.

Speaker 3 (01:24:03):
He he actually went to Waco during the siege and
was handing out pamphlets against the guy.

Speaker 10 (01:24:09):
So he was one of the protesters out there.

Speaker 3 (01:24:11):
And he even in his manifesto and stuff. So really,
what was it one hundred and sixty eight or two
hundred sixty eight.

Speaker 10 (01:24:19):
For the Oklahoma City bombing one hundred and sixty eight,
I think, yeah, something like that. I can't remember an
exact number. We'll cover that one eventually in a different
episode two, But that one doesn't I don't think necessarily
goes along with the cold series.

Speaker 3 (01:24:33):
But uh, Tim McVeigh again, like I said, he was
on site during the siege while during the fifty one days,
not all fifty one days, but he was there, and
he actually socks Waco after his Oklahoma City bombing, So
you can directly tie one hundred and sixty eight deaths

(01:24:56):
and six hundred and eighty four injuries from that bombing
right back to.

Speaker 10 (01:25:00):
Yeah, and the government, the government's the handling of that. Like,
say what you will about McVeigh, Like he was right
not to trust the government. I mean, how he decided
to deal without not okay.

Speaker 3 (01:25:16):
And this is what kind of I won't say frustrates me,
but I guess I guess so about this too, especially
Waco is you see, people don't really pay attention to
the cult side of it. They see this battle against
the government, right, and the government was so bad in
the wrong in this.

Speaker 10 (01:25:36):
Yeah, the handling of it was just so beyond poor
and I mean that's putting it very very lightly.

Speaker 3 (01:25:43):
So you see their tactics and how aggressive they were
that and what is this listen is called the attack
on the branch Davidians. So what happens is people see
that and that's all they remember of Waco was that
these poor people who just wanted to be left alone,
who was exercising their Second Amendment rights, got attacked by

(01:26:05):
the patriots. Yeah, got attacked by the government because they
were overbearing and they for guns which should be legal
and had no business attacking them. And the government wound
up killing all these people and therefore they're victims and
all they were were true patriots just out there want
to be left alone, those poor people. Say, that's how

(01:26:26):
people see that.

Speaker 10 (01:26:27):
Yeah, and there's some of that that I agree with.
But at the same time, I'm like, these were not
innocent people. I mean, this was a an exploitative cult.
I mean, especially for the female members and especially even
then the children. Yeah, like we know that this man

(01:26:49):
was hurting children, Like we know this. You didn't even
have his members saying that they would turn over their
children to him if he had asked.

Speaker 3 (01:26:57):
And I said, that's the frustration.

Speaker 10 (01:26:59):
Level yes, they needed to be stopped.

Speaker 3 (01:27:02):
And that's and the way they were stopped obviously not ideal.
But again, both things can be true here the ATF, FBI,
the government, they screwed, the pooch David Kresh was horrible
and needed to be stopped. Both of those things are true. However,
history and people remember it as the ATF done something terrible.

Speaker 10 (01:27:24):
Yeah, and I mean yes they did, but that's not
the entire story. So that's why we're doing this episode.
Especially again, we meant to do this last week because
it was the thirty second anniversary of when the siege started. Yeah,
and I mean shoot, yeah, y'all heard us tonight, Like
we barely made this episode work because of the same
technical issues, but like we wanted to start this then.

(01:27:48):
But the story needs to be told because it's not
as cut and dry, like, yes, you can be mad
at the ATF, like we're mad at the government for
how they handle this, Like we have absolutely agree that
how they went about this is the entire reason that
eighty people died. It's I think I weigh that at

(01:28:10):
the government's feet.

Speaker 3 (01:28:11):
It's and it's what kicked off an entire rehabilitation on
the way they treat hostage quote unquote situations. They no
longer they call it what is it, ye, eternal patients.
I think it's what they call it now. Instead of
being aggressshift with it. The people who are doing the negotiations,

(01:28:37):
they supposed to use NonStop, never ending patients with the
people they're negotiating with, instead of sending in armed forces
and all this.

Speaker 10 (01:28:47):
That's right off the bat, which that has to be
the very last end of Yeah, that has to be
your last resort, like everything else has failed now, so
now we have to act.

Speaker 3 (01:28:58):
Any time now. The government used to back then they
saw it as a success if they reached their goal.
Now they look at as a failure in negotiations if
they can't make it peacefully out. Anything beyond that is
still considered a failure. Used to be, it didn't matter,

(01:29:20):
we got our mand, it was success, right, And Waco
was the thing is the first step, that first little
step into changing that. Because the whole world at this
point sees what's happening. That's what really gets their attention.

Speaker 10 (01:29:36):
And like this one that I'm going to mention, it
was not a cult, but I think, like you said,
Waco was the one that really got the national attention
and started to change the conversation about how we deal
with situations like this. And then I think Ruby Ridge
was like the nail in that coffin.

Speaker 3 (01:29:54):
I think so too.

Speaker 10 (01:29:55):
I think because again, this was not a cult. I mean,
this was just and I always make jokes too because
Ruby Ridge I actually kind of relate to a little more,
because these literally were just normal people just want to
be left alone, living off the grid, like doing their
own thing. They were not a threat to anybody, but
it was the whole sawt off shotgun thing that got them.

(01:30:18):
And again now you see the ATF not only shoot
their pets and everything, but shoot their son right out
in their front yard in front of like the mother
who's holding a baby, you know, so all of those
like the aerial footage, especially especially of that woman standing
out in the yard and everything is just eerie to see.

Speaker 14 (01:30:38):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:30:39):
I think when this war against firearms started, I think
the ATF probably had a higher body count than anybody
using an illegal fire I mean, I mean.

Speaker 10 (01:30:51):
Even a saw off shotgun, like I mean, these people
were using it for home defense, like and they lived
on a compound in northern Idaho, and like the middle
of the woods and like acres and acres of land.
They didn't have any intruders, so they were never going
to get a chance to use that quote unquote illegal
sought off shotgun. You know, it was not useful for hunting.
It was just for home defense and it wasn't hurting anybody.

(01:31:13):
They just had it right. Well, it's so I don't know,
I mean, Ruby Ridge irritates the crap out of me
like that. That's one that actually I get fired up about.

Speaker 3 (01:31:26):
We can do a show later about it.

Speaker 10 (01:31:28):
Yeah, we're definitely going to cover Ruby Ridge.

Speaker 3 (01:31:31):
Definitely not into massive murder from the government.

Speaker 10 (01:31:34):
But I think when people think of Wayco the very
next one that they think of is Ruby Ridge.

Speaker 3 (01:31:40):
Usually, yeah, I we'll tie.

Speaker 10 (01:31:41):
Together because of the just massive, like government mishandling of
a situation.

Speaker 3 (01:31:48):
And I don't know, you would think that whether you
be Republican or Democrat or independent whatever, libertarian, we all
should be able to agree that the government sucks. All
these agencies aren't actually here to protect us.

Speaker 10 (01:32:04):
Well, I don't know. Democrats nowadays, they're kind of like
the ones like, no, we need them. They're supposed to
tell us.

Speaker 3 (01:32:11):
How our lives, what they what they want is the
welfare side of it. When it comes to the DEA
and the ATF, I just don't think they like them either.
But if it's now, if it's a warfell side of it,
then oh yeah, they definitely keep them.

Speaker 10 (01:32:24):
Minus twenty twenty five. And how the Democrats are these days,
so I think you're kind of pushing it a little.

Speaker 3 (01:32:30):
No, they loved ATF and all those when Biden was
in charge. Now that somebody else is in charge, they're
not going to like them again.

Speaker 10 (01:32:38):
So hey, Pam, I'm trying to keep up with a
chat to Alan said the ten four hats out of me.
Wonders if David Koresh had CIA ties and the Clintons
had to destroy some evidence. Remember the Clintons helped the
CIA run drugs in Arkansas reportedly, we have to say

(01:32:59):
that for legal reasons, as long.

Speaker 3 (01:33:01):
As the Clintons are still alive and hold some sort
of power it's allegedly reportedly.

Speaker 10 (01:33:06):
Oh and by the way, neither one of us were suicidal,
so like, we have no intentions whatsoever to kill ourselves
at all.

Speaker 3 (01:33:13):
So exactly right. Uh, you know, I wonder I've been
to that Clinton Regional airport out there in Arkansas before
I am. Yeah, I wonder that's where they would fly
stuff in and out of if if they were.

Speaker 10 (01:33:31):
I'm gonna go like Ben Affleck from what's that movie?

Speaker 3 (01:33:35):
First off? First off, that airport out there is fine.
I don't give a crap about the airport either way,
one way or the other. It's it's as stupid to airport.
But on the outskirts of airport there's a little place.
It's a little dinner out there, And I tell you, guys,
I'm not going to plug the name of the dinner
because I can't remember the name of it right now.
But that greasy cheeseburger they had and those greasy prize

(01:33:56):
that like soaked through the Holy crap, that was some
good food out there. People, y'all know how to make
greasy food. I'm happy about y'all. Anyways, that's the only
good memory I had with Clinton Regional Airport.

Speaker 10 (01:34:11):
Yeah, allegedly, like I'm gonna go again, I'm gonna go
full like Ben Affleck from that good Will Hunting That's
what it was. When he takes the place of Matt Damon.
Like in that interview, he just keeps saying allegedly. Yeah,
I'm just gonna have to make that part of our
vocabulary here tonight is just allegedly by I know, we

(01:34:37):
always kind of get off in the weeds coming close
to the end of the show and everything. But but yeah,
I mean, like you keep saying two things can be
true at the same time, like David Koresh was absolutely
running a cult that it needed to end at least
just to save the children that were involved in this.

Speaker 3 (01:34:59):
You've mentioned them in Go How and we talked about
how the people in the surrounding areas really didn't have
a problem with them. They said they were very polite
when they ran into them. That one of the quotes
is they were just people who wanted to be left
along up on Mount Carmel Hill, on top of that hill.
It makes me wonder because obviously they had a plan,

(01:35:19):
They had this idea and this belief that they would
be a war coming. So they were stalking up.

Speaker 10 (01:35:25):
They were stalking up for it.

Speaker 3 (01:35:28):
They had guns, m they was ready, and they would
all likelihood continue to buy get bigger and bigger. So
my question, my thought is if the ATF had not
have attacked, that hadn't got word on him moved. When
they did move, let's say in ninety three. If they
if the branch Davidians and David Cresh would have kept going,

(01:35:50):
say ninety five, ninety six, twenty seven, whatever on down
the road, would they escalate into something more? Would they
become one of those cults that massed suicide or some
sort of some sort of forced attack on somebody else,
just so they could put in motion David's plan, his idea,

(01:36:13):
his belief is prophecy.

Speaker 10 (01:36:15):
In my mind, I think, yes, it would eventually have
have gone that route, you know, some kind of like
they're all going to die anyway. But I think that
had they been left alone and everything, and I don't
know that it necessarily would have been like to fulfill
the prophecy or to make it happen, but that okay,

(01:36:38):
this is imminent and everything, and you don't want to
suffer through this war and everything, so let's take ourselves out.
It could have gone, you know, either way. There's a
whole bunch of different ways that like cult leaders implement
that in a different you know, rationale every time. I mean,
that's how like Jim Jones, that's how Johnstown happened was

(01:36:59):
because is Okay, you don't want to be alive, like
when all this other stuff is gonna go down, you know.
So I think that, yes, it would have eventually gone
that route, because David koresh like, eventually all of these
especially like the og members the Originals, eventually, after you know,

(01:37:22):
so many years of nothing ever happening, they're gonna start like, hey,
I wonder if any of this is really true. They're
gonna start having these doubts. They're gonna start like talking
to one another and you know, kind of questioning him now.
And like I was telling y'all earlier, with a narcissistic

(01:37:42):
personality disorder, any kind of like questioning the authority is
not allowed. It is not permitted in cults especially. So yes,
I do absolutely think that no matter what, a lot
of these people were going to die.

Speaker 3 (01:37:58):
Yeah, that's I think so too. Just if you follow
the logical, if you look at it logically and you
follow the patterns of previous cults and cults has come afterwards,
that's kind of the standard, that's kind of the progression.

Speaker 10 (01:38:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:38:16):
So I think that even though the branch Obedians have
been around for a long time and there's still actually
a group out there of branch Obedians are still active.
The I think that the progression of David Koresh is
on Mount Carmel, but eventually had to have come to

(01:38:37):
a head on something.

Speaker 10 (01:38:39):
It would have to because again with these with this
specific type of narcissists, it is all about power and
control and eventually, I mean, getting people to kill themselves
is the ultimate control you can have over another human being,
convincing them that this is their idea, You're responsible for

(01:39:00):
that death, but they're doing it of their own quote
unquote free will. So yes, with someone like David Koresh, like,
eventually it was going to boil down to that, I
think right, because he that's again it's the ultimate form
of control.

Speaker 3 (01:39:18):
Yeah, I think so too. And just again you just
followed the the playbook that's kind of works out.

Speaker 10 (01:39:27):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:39:27):
Of course we know how this ended because at f
FBI they pushed envelope there and the fire.

Speaker 10 (01:39:36):
Says we're getting close to the end now, so we.

Speaker 3 (01:39:40):
All know that it all ends in the blaze of
glory quite literally now, people.

Speaker 10 (01:39:48):
I mean we've all seen the photos of compound just
engulfed in flames.

Speaker 3 (01:39:52):
For those videos, all of it.

Speaker 10 (01:39:53):
I mean, it's it's an iconic image these days.

Speaker 3 (01:39:57):
Now we had people's there's two sides of it. People
are going to say that the ATF done something to
start the fire, and then you got others saying that
David's group said it themselves. Both theories absolutely are believable. Yeah,
I mean, the one theory about DTF started that I

(01:40:19):
think is would be I don't think if ATF started,
I don't think it would be on purpose.

Speaker 10 (01:40:26):
I believe that they didn't intend for it to get
out of the head well.

Speaker 3 (01:40:29):
I think the way they were administering the the gas
in there, they were shooting in there with those grenades
and stuff with the with the gas, if those things
are sparking and they got some sort of a celerance,
which more than likely they had a celerance inside that compound,
just assuming by what everything else they had.

Speaker 10 (01:40:47):
Let's say, if they're started calling weapons for in time's battle,
like they're probably gonna have like incendiary devices or accelerants
or something. It's just that, I mean, that to me
is logical, right.

Speaker 3 (01:41:00):
I would say that it absolutely looks like the ATF
very well could have inadvertently started that fire and some
of their survivors say that that's.

Speaker 10 (01:41:11):
What happened, that it was accidental.

Speaker 3 (01:41:13):
That was accidental. Now the ATF says there's no way,
as Rich says, the ATF be like, we didn't start
to find. So they're saying that they somebody inside branch
of Medians set the fire themselves as kind of a
mass suicide type situation.

Speaker 10 (01:41:33):
Wait their last stand. Basically, now what.

Speaker 3 (01:41:36):
We do know, and you're going to talk about these
kids in a minute.

Speaker 10 (01:41:40):
And it's to me is the absolute worst part of.

Speaker 3 (01:41:43):
All of this a lot. Now, once the fire dies
down and it burns so hot, y'all that this building,
if you see the videos of it afterwards, this bit
is down to ashes all the way down. I mean,
this place is gone.

Speaker 10 (01:41:58):
But at the same time, keeping on this compound, there
was nothing fancy about it. I mean it was basically
all wood of hardly any electricity in there except maybe
to run lights because they had no AC. They had
no heat, very limited plumbing like you mentioned earlier.

Speaker 3 (01:42:15):
Yeah, but like I said, watch, look, it's the wayco thing.
There's They are one hundred thousand videos and diaris of it.
Go out there. Look at the videos of the fires
and stuff and the end, this in front. When this enough,
when we say inferno, it is a sure enough inferno.
It is a huge, blazing fire and it burns hot,

(01:42:36):
it burns fast, and it burns everything down to the
to the absolute ashes. So when they go in the
FBI and all that, they go in and start looking
through the bodies, they see a lot a lot of
the members with single bullet holes in their skulls.

Speaker 10 (01:42:53):
And let's just go ahead and say there was a
concrete building off to the side.

Speaker 3 (01:42:58):
There was a concrete above ground concrete bunker.

Speaker 10 (01:43:02):
Yeah, and this is where a lot of the women
tried to take the children to save them.

Speaker 3 (01:43:08):
It was more inside. It was away from It was
protected from the gun, from the bullets and stuff like that.
It was a good enclosed area. And they had put
those kids in there along with a bunch of the
women as well, to get away from trying.

Speaker 10 (01:43:22):
Trying to protect them, you know, the.

Speaker 3 (01:43:24):
Gunfires and all that.

Speaker 10 (01:43:27):
And again this is where I I don't know that
I really have words for all this, because again y'all
know how I am when it comes to two children,
especially you know, children in these situations where they're killed.
I have a very hard time discussing it. I have
a very hard time talking about it because I mean,
I'm a mom.

Speaker 3 (01:43:47):
I mean, do you want me to discuss it?

Speaker 10 (01:43:51):
You may have to, Like I'm gonna it's gonna be
a lot for you.

Speaker 3 (01:43:54):
Just name them in there. And now look if you
if you don't want to hear this, don't listen to it.
Because what I'm going to tell you it's bad is
the truth. It is the logic of it. It's physics.
This is how it happens. Okay, Now you've got this

(01:44:14):
concrete building. It's completely surrounded. Of course, there's a door
in it, no windows or nothing, concrete walls, concrete four
concrete top. Right, This is an oven, a brick pizza oven.
All right, it's jig fire blazing all around it. These

(01:44:35):
women and children are in there. They are cooking alive
inside this safety.

Speaker 10 (01:44:41):
Because there's nowhere they can't. If they run out of there,
they risk being shot. And if they stay in there,
I mean they're going to burn a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:44:50):
So when they ATF agents enter that area, and one
of them is quoted saying, I wish to God had
never even looked in there.

Speaker 10 (01:44:59):
Yes, that is the one thing that gave him nightmares
through his entire life because.

Speaker 3 (01:45:04):
What they found was all those kids was in there,
and all of them had a gunshot loan to the head.
So that tells me that they were in there. These
women that was in there and over looking over them
and stuff. I'm sure they was armed two in case.

Speaker 10 (01:45:19):
Yeah, just to protect the children.

Speaker 3 (01:45:21):
It got so hot and they knew what was going
to happen. As a mercy, they wound up putting these
kids out quicker than the fire would have.

Speaker 10 (01:45:30):
And I just, I mean, there's a reason I can't
talk about stuff like that.

Speaker 3 (01:45:35):
I mean, so as horrible as it sounds, and I mean,
there's no good way about it, but that was faster
and more humane than allowing them to cook inside that.

Speaker 10 (01:45:46):
Are dying of smoke inhalation or anything like that.

Speaker 3 (01:45:49):
Well, they it was sealed off, so there was no
there wasn't enough smoke inside there to kill them that way.
It was just the heat, the radiant heat building up
in there, because that's what happens. So that's now eventually
when they do go in there. Of course, it did
burn down the door and then go on into and
burn up the inside of the building that they of

(01:46:11):
the room, they were into so of course all that
was ashes as well, but before that fire reached them,
those kids didn't fill that fire. That's a good thing,
I say.

Speaker 10 (01:46:24):
I mean, it's just it's horrific how they escaped it,
or how the women in there.

Speaker 3 (01:46:31):
It's a horrific situation. It's horrific decision to be made.
But it was a mercy that it was made. Yeah,
so it's actually a good outcome for what else, for
what it would have been otherwise.

Speaker 10 (01:46:44):
My thing is I still just demmed. Me just imagines
them that heat is building and everything. These children are
probably in a panic at this point. They are terrified,
like their last moments, and especially these women that were
that they trusted to protect them, like to get the
you know, to help them live and everything. Now these

(01:47:06):
women and you have to think, like after the first child,
how the rest of them must have felt like watching
this happen, knowing like okay, they're just moving through this building.
Now they're shooting us there. You're watching this happen to
all of these other children, your friends, brothers, sisters, sometimes

(01:47:28):
like these children are watching this happen.

Speaker 3 (01:47:31):
It was a look at the bunnies moment.

Speaker 10 (01:47:36):
I don't know because you're still gonna hear the gunshots
and everything, and those kids are gonna know what's happening.

Speaker 3 (01:47:41):
I mean, well, again, we wasn't in the room. No,
we don't know how I went down other than the
ebdens that were looking at and the logic of it. Now,
when it comes to how the kids reacted, they may
have been asking for it, So you don't know.

Speaker 10 (01:47:57):
Considering how young some of them were, I doubt any
of them were.

Speaker 3 (01:48:00):
With the with the gun shots, the fire, the sound
going wrong. They may not ever heard the gun shots
inside that room.

Speaker 10 (01:48:07):
And this is what Daniel does, like talk me down, y'all,
because when I get like stuff like this in my
head and everything, it just kind of escalates and rolls
on and on and on. So you're seeing him like
actually talk me down in real time.

Speaker 3 (01:48:20):
Well I'm also using logic to it as well. I mean,
it's I mean, I don't know.

Speaker 10 (01:48:25):
I would assume that these women tried to make it
as less horrific as it possibly could have been for them.
I mean, and I assume so I hope.

Speaker 3 (01:48:36):
So Look, if they didn't care, they would have shot
themselves first and let the kids along. But they didn't
they've done what needed to be done to lessen the
damage and lessen the pain and the agony of these kids.
They did the right thing in that circumstance. Periods.

Speaker 10 (01:48:52):
Yeah, I mean, I just again it gets in my head,
and yeah, we only have about ten minutes left. And
again we're not doing a full in memoriam tonight because
there were eighty people that died over the course of

(01:49:12):
this entire seies, this entire fifty one days, eighty people died.
Twenty five of these were children, and it's the children's name.
They're the ones that I'm going to specifically, you know,
remember tonight, because, like I keep saying, y'all know how
I'm about kids and everything. But if y'all want to

(01:49:35):
see a full in memoriam when it comes to the
cults like this, since a lot of them have very
very high body counts, it's not feasible for me to
read off every single name during a live episode. But
each week, for each episode and everything, I'll have a
pen post on our ex Facebook page, which is FP

(01:49:57):
Underscore Forensics, and I'll have all of the known names
and everything listed there. But tonight, the children, they all
died on the last day of the siege, which was
when the highest body count was. We have the ten

(01:50:19):
that died on the first day, but then there were
no other deaths until the last day. I do believe
that were associated.

Speaker 3 (01:50:26):
Anyway, April nineteenth, nineteen nineth.

Speaker 10 (01:50:30):
So yeah, I've got a handful of names here that
I'll read and then we can wrap up with where
you can find us all. But again, the death date
for all these children was April nineteenth of nineteen ninety three.
We have Chanelle, and if I pronounced any of these

(01:50:52):
names wrong, like I'm sorry, we are Southern. I don't
know how to read off a lot of different names.
Chanelle Day she was one years old, Cyrus Koresh was eight,
Star Koresh was six, Bobby Lane Koresh was two Dayalen

(01:51:12):
Gent three years old, Paige Gent was one, Lisa Martin
was thirteen, Sheila Martin was fifteen, Crystal Martinez was three,
Isaiah Martinez four, Joseph Martinez was eight, Abigail Martinez was eleven,
and Audrey Martinez was thirteen. Melissa Morrison was six. Mayanna

(01:51:38):
Schneider was two, Aisha Summers was seventeen, and she was
actually pregnant, so her unborn child died too. Yeah, Startle
Somemmers was one. Hollywood Sylvia was one, Serenity Jones was four,

(01:51:59):
Sheika Jones was two, and another child was just went
by the name Little One. Jones was two years old.

Speaker 3 (01:52:09):
There's a Rachel Silva was twelve also.

Speaker 10 (01:52:15):
But yeah, that's all the the children that died on that.

Speaker 3 (01:52:22):
Now, there was some kids who were released.

Speaker 10 (01:52:24):
Earlier, Yeah, that survived that.

Speaker 3 (01:52:27):
They did survive. They were released previously throughout the fifty
one days. Christ did release some of the kids and
stuff out of there, so there were some survivors, which
is all we can always thank God for that.

Speaker 10 (01:52:42):
So, yeah, that's always a hard one for me when
it involves kids.

Speaker 3 (01:52:48):
So well again, you know, the I think in those situations,
there's an age of innocence that played into most of them.
We can just hope that the other were saved to
show some mercy there, you know.

Speaker 10 (01:53:03):
Yeah, that's because they these kids and everything, they they
were not old enough to choose this cult for themselves.

Speaker 3 (01:53:11):
Especially they've been there since.

Speaker 10 (01:53:13):
Or they were born into it, born.

Speaker 3 (01:53:15):
Into it and raged through it. That kind of I
think judgment is going to fall upon.

Speaker 10 (01:53:21):
Their shepherd, absolutely Uh, these children I think were absolutely innocent,
and God is a merciful God and they're with him.

Speaker 3 (01:53:29):
So yeah, I'm not gonna say I cheesse to believe that.
I do believe that right there is a That's why
the Bible talks about the shepherds of your floughts being.

Speaker 10 (01:53:41):
Held to a higher standard.

Speaker 3 (01:53:43):
Because you're the they're the ones that are teaching this.
And if they teach a false religion or teach something
that's incorrect or corrupted, then I think that innocence for
that child, especially when they're still seventeen, fifteen, thirteen twelve,
I think that that grace would the extended.

Speaker 10 (01:54:01):
Yeah. God is very merciful and graceful God, So I
absolutely think that these children are with him now and
no matter how horrific it was for them in this life,
it's all been made better. So that's where I get
my comfort in all of this.

Speaker 3 (01:54:19):
Yep. So, and we see it a lot in these
cults and stuff, that the innocence do involve children, and.

Speaker 10 (01:54:29):
Because evil likes to corrupt innocence.

Speaker 3 (01:54:31):
And that and again with Waco, that's one thing that
frustrates me so much is people tend to remember them
as patriots that were attacked by the government, and which
that is true as well, it's not the whole truth
you have to look at. This was the disgusting cult
that needed calling and I just hate the way it

(01:54:54):
went down, but it's needed to end.

Speaker 10 (01:54:57):
Yeah, I mean, it could have been handled different diferently,
and it probably should have been handled differently, But yeah,
I mean Korreesh needed to be brought down eventually.

Speaker 3 (01:55:08):
Again, let you let the government try to do anything.
They're gonna want up screwing it up. Yeah, they're gonna
make it worse. And this is another one of the
more blaring.

Speaker 10 (01:55:17):
Whatever the opposite of, like the Midas touches is what
the government has. But yeah, I think that actually does
kind of wrap it up for tonight for part three
of our series on cults, we just we did want
to make sure that like the actual story of the

(01:55:38):
cult aspect of this stays relevant in people's minds. Like, yes,
it's absolutely okay to blame the government for how it
was handled, but we need to understand that these were
not good people either that were in charge of this cult,
so should have been handled differently, probably could have been
handled differently, but at the same time. Yes, Koresh needed

(01:56:01):
to be brought down. He that cult needed to be
stopped for nothing else. But they're assault on children.

Speaker 3 (01:56:11):
Right, So I guess since we've been in and out
of technical difficulties, we're going to wrap up here. I'm
real easy to find bump stock can on X. That's
really all I do. I mean, I've got some other stuff,
but I'm not going to share it out, but from
Ports Forensics, f P Underscore Forensics on X that's our

(01:56:35):
front forts forensics. Between that and my bump stock can,
that's really all I got.

Speaker 10 (01:56:40):
But a Yeah, I'm Bumpstock Barbie, so that's easy to
remember us. Both it's Bumpstock Barbie and bumpstock Can. Alls
are right for twitches. So you can find all my
articles on my X page. I've got the link in
my bio. Do watch our show page on X and

(01:57:02):
everything because I will be doing probably a poll to
see which cult y'all want us to do next. Yeah,
and look now because we are getting into the higher
death death counts and everything, so let us know or yeah,
let us know what you want us to do next,
and then look for the full in memoriam on X.

Speaker 3 (01:57:26):
Yeah. Yeah, We're gonna start doing that for throughout the
Cult series.

Speaker 15 (01:57:31):
Counts.

Speaker 3 (01:57:32):
So h Now, of course this is Frontports friends, It's
signed Buck stock Ken. This is Buck stock Barbie. We
are on k l r N Radio dot com. You
guys go there, check out all the other shows. Give
us some follows. For us and everybody else, I guarantee
you'll find something you enjoy. Thanks for having us. Thanks.

Speaker 12 (01:57:57):
Talk like scary stories in the morning, and I like
in that night. I like my girl talk vibes.

Speaker 3 (01:58:10):
They make me feel