FPF 05-10-25 The One About Reinventing Yourself

Episode Transcript

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Speaker 8 (03:07):
The following program contains course language and adult themes. Listener
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Speaker 9 (03:20):
Old let the trail's gone cold. Every town's got secret.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
So justicy r goes.

Speaker 10 (04:39):
That's right, ladies and gentlemen, This is from Porch Forensics.
I am your co host bump Stock Ken and here
in the kitchen today instead of on the front porch
with your hostess with emostis bump Stock Barbie.

Speaker 11 (04:55):
Yeah. We are getting ready for mother to Day tomorrow,
so I'm making calls on possess tell it as we
do this show. And if you'll notice, we have new
introm music tonight, which is from one of our fellow
ko or in guys, Jeff. He hosts The Lost Wanderer
and you can see him on some other shows and
everything too.

Speaker 8 (05:14):
But Yeah, that introm music to me is so much better.

Speaker 10 (05:18):
Yeah, it really is nice. We want to thank him
a lot for that, and I think we're going to
probably make that done the official into for the time being.
We really are proud of the work he did in
that and want to thank him greatly.

Speaker 11 (05:34):
Very haunting.

Speaker 8 (05:35):
So it's right up my alley.

Speaker 10 (05:39):
Like I said, tomorrow is Mother's Day, So happy Mother's
Day to everyone that is a mother or stepmother or
grandmother and alledge you.

Speaker 11 (05:48):
Know, happy birthday for non specified gender people. I don't know.

Speaker 10 (05:55):
They get their days April first, every year.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
They get a month.

Speaker 10 (05:59):
Dude, are we standing? Okay? Rick, can you hear her? Okay?

Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, it's so good on my end. I mean, like
I said, she's a little quiet because she's far off,
but it's okay, it's not that bad.

Speaker 8 (06:10):
Because I'm just over here at the stove.

Speaker 10 (06:13):
So it is the only time ever she's a little quiet.

Speaker 1 (06:15):
So I mean, I wasn't gonna say it. I'll say
a prayer for you tonight, and my.

Speaker 10 (06:23):
Brother thank you very very much.

Speaker 8 (06:26):
Hey, my taste testers would be nice.

Speaker 10 (06:31):
Tonight. We have been gone for extended leave here for
a little past few weeks. A lot of stuff going
on this time of year for us, had a bunch
of family get togethers and other holiday top things that
that required our attention and acquired us being there. So

(06:51):
just it just didn't work out that we could do
the show. But today we are back and hopefully back
on the regular schedule for a while. And it being
Mother's Day tomorrow, we thought about doing Mother's to Kill.

Speaker 8 (07:05):
That seemed a bit dark, even for me though.

Speaker 10 (07:08):
So yeah, that just seemed like we just didn't want
to come back with a downer of a show, because
when you get kids involved, it's it's pretty rough. It's
very hard on your hostess here. So we decided we
kind of, I don't want to say light because it's
not really a lot subject. It's still true.

Speaker 11 (07:25):
Crime, and we do have a cold case of assault
tonight after sixty two years, so we'll discuss that one
a little bit. But we decided to keep it a
little bit more upbeat as much as we possibly.

Speaker 8 (07:37):
Can for a true crop show.

Speaker 10 (07:41):
Yeah, if you can call true crime of any kind
of upbeat, that's what we're going to try to do.
What we're going to look at today, Like you said,
you missed some cold case ones. So did we ever
come up with a title for tonight show?

Speaker 11 (07:58):
No? I think it just be one kind of more
about that current event and you know.

Speaker 10 (08:04):
Just along, how about the one about reinventing yourself?

Speaker 8 (08:12):
Yeah, because that's essentially what the women have done that we're.

Speaker 11 (08:15):
Going to talk about.

Speaker 10 (08:16):
So we're talking about today is this cold case in particular. Uh,
basically people who have fell off the radar have disappeared
and basically take on a new identity and uh they
left abandoned whoever and started the new life. They reinvented theirselves.

(08:39):
So and what brought this on is a cold case
that was uh found earlier this year, solved when they
found the woman alive. So the lady we're talking about
is Audrey Backenberg. Y'all may have heard it on the
news or on it we've seen some something. But Audrey

(09:02):
Backenberg a Wisconsin woman who disappeared in nineteen sixty two
and was found alive earlier this year, twenty twenty five,
after living under a new identity for over six years
or I'm sorry, six decades what is it sixty two years?

Speaker 11 (09:21):
To besin two years that that case had been going on,
she was considered a missing person all this time.

Speaker 10 (09:27):
Yeah, but I guess it's closer to sixty three years. Actually,
she disappeared in sixty two and it's twenty twenty five,
so almost sixty three years.

Speaker 8 (09:35):
And she was reported this in her last scene.

Speaker 10 (09:38):
Yeah. So at the time of her disappearance, she was
twenty years old, married and had two children. Now, she
had filed a criminal complaint against her husband, this you know,
back then, and she alleging severe physical abuse and even
death threats. And shortly after she left her home and disappeared,

(10:03):
and whereabouts was remained unknown until she turned back up
this earth this year. I'm going to put them up yep.

Speaker 11 (10:14):
So sorry, I don't know what to do.

Speaker 10 (10:20):
So if they been gone for sixty two years, she
had pa filed complaints, I guess legal complaints. Actually, that
says criminal complaint against her husband for legend severe physical
abuse and death baits. I remember reading too that he
had actually bought a gun and showed her or this

(10:43):
is her saying that he had bought a gun and
was showing her the gun, telling her this is to
keep you in line basically. So he had obviously made
some pretty veiled threats there and tacked on with the
physical abuse abuse. I'm sure there's mental abuse there as well,
And if you want to go to trifecta, there's emotional

(11:05):
abuse too, I'm sure.

Speaker 11 (11:06):
Well. I count emotional and mental abuse kind of in
the same category because I mean they're tied together for me.

Speaker 10 (11:13):
So yeah, abuse is abuses. Abuse kind of.

Speaker 8 (11:18):
Abuse is on a different level. But again, emotional and
mental abuse I put under that same.

Speaker 10 (11:26):
Umbrella, emotional and mental. Yeah, yeah, I guess I could
say that because it's not a physical bruise. It's both
of them leaves damaged on the inside, you know, as
opposed to outside.

Speaker 11 (11:38):
And this is one that, like most people know about me,
that I can relate to.

Speaker 8 (11:45):
Yeah, not with you, of course, but I actually have
experience in.

Speaker 10 (11:50):
This this story. I wish I had a lot of
follow up with it as far as currently, But talking
with the sheriff who found the woman alive, she basically
requested to be left alone. So the sheriff that found
her is not releasing any information. He's not releasing her

(12:13):
new current name or anything like that.

Speaker 11 (12:16):
What she did.

Speaker 8 (12:17):
Technically is not a crime.

Speaker 11 (12:19):
I mean, you may get into like criminal stuff if
she did not legally change her name, and then like
you can get into like insurance fraud or you know,
any kind of stuff like that that would kind of
go along with that, because you know, she's had medical care.

Speaker 8 (12:31):
Over the years and.

Speaker 11 (12:33):
All that kind of stuff. So if she didn't like
legally change her name, you might could get into fraud.
But simply just walking away from your life and starting.

Speaker 10 (12:40):
Over not a crime, right, Yeah, legally abandoning your family
and take it on a new identity, it's not a
it's not a crime on it in its on itself. Inherently,
it's not a legal.

Speaker 11 (12:53):
Crime, right.

Speaker 10 (12:55):
And in Andrea's case, there's no indication that she had
committed any other criminal activities, like in the process of
her leaving her previous life. She didn't do anything illegal,
you know, do.

Speaker 11 (13:13):
Anything illegal then and apparently has no criminal history since then.

Speaker 8 (13:17):
So she just walked away from her life essentially.

Speaker 10 (13:20):
Yeah, she didn't take anything with her. She didn't. I'm
not even sure if she's legally legally changed her name
from what I've read.

Speaker 11 (13:29):
She just I'm wondering, like because if she didn't change
her name, if he was kind of if the excisemander
who she left and everything was serious about finding her.

Speaker 8 (13:38):
If she didn't change her name, it probably would have
been pretty easy.

Speaker 10 (13:41):
Yeah, well, I think she didn't legally change her name,
like through this court systems, but she just took on
a new name.

Speaker 8 (13:48):
Yeah, but that's where I've talked about.

Speaker 11 (13:50):
Like then this, you know, could be an instance of
fraud for like other issues like insurance issues for one,
you know, but we don't know any thing about that.

Speaker 8 (14:00):
We don't know if she legally changed her name or not.

Speaker 12 (14:02):
That's all respect. I couldn't find any evidence that she did.
And then again taking on a new name, just as
long as she didn't try to take any loans or
anything out under that name.

Speaker 10 (14:14):
But still with.

Speaker 11 (14:15):
Medical care, it would be considered insurance fraud if you
did not actually put your real name or information like
accurate information on any of those forms or anything. I
think you could get into things like insurance fraud with that. Again, speculation,
because we have no idea if she legally changed.

Speaker 8 (14:32):
Her name or not.

Speaker 10 (14:34):
Right, Yeah, we don't know, because, like I said, out of.

Speaker 8 (14:38):
The records would not be made known.

Speaker 10 (14:41):
Like I said, out of respect for the lady and
at her request, the police didn't release any other information.
So it's kind of hard to go from there. What
we do know is that the authorities once that she

(15:02):
did disappear in the beginning. The authorities have confirmed that
her disappearance was voluntary and that she was not in
danger during her time away after she left her husband.

Speaker 11 (15:13):
Right, what happened was in a train station. She and
was it the babysitter she was with? She was with
somebody younger who said that they the last time anybody
saw her was that person that she was with said
that they just saw her walk away.

Speaker 10 (15:28):
Yeah, she was at a I want to say, the
train station. She walked around the corner and it's never
come back. Left the child with a baby, they said, babysitter.

Speaker 8 (15:36):
But somebody in the like caring for the child, like nanny,
could be a babysitter.

Speaker 10 (15:40):
You know, something, could have been just one of her friends.
And she walked away from him, just letting she left
the child with an adult, with an adult that she trust,
she trusted. Yeah, and and she said that she just
walked out, turned the corner and that's the last time.
Anybody never came back. So but yeah, the police they
looked in to it. They found you know, no, it

(16:03):
was all voluntary, that she wasn't kidnapped or anything like
that when she was found.

Speaker 8 (16:08):
Or anything like that. I was ever suspected.

Speaker 10 (16:11):
And because of all that said, there are no legal
consequences that she's facing for her actions or that she
could charge someone else with for her disappearance.

Speaker 11 (16:23):
Yeah, I mean basically they just decided, they just announced, Hey,
we close this case. She's fine, she's alive, like she's
been just living her life for these six decades, right,
and I mean, okay, for her sake, like I hope
they were at least mostly happy times, you know, like
that she got away from the abusive situation. Me personally,

(16:46):
I can't fathom leaving my child behind in that kind
of situation though. That's where I can't understand her decision
making there.

Speaker 10 (16:55):
Right, That's something else I would love to find out,
And maybe it will happen, and you know, following the case,
maybe we'll see her original husband and kids, you know,
come out and say something about it, because I would
be interesting to see what their take on it is.

Speaker 11 (17:13):
Yeah, if the husband, I mean again, it's been like
sixty plus years, so the husband may be dead by now.

Speaker 10 (17:18):
Yeah, she's in her eighties.

Speaker 11 (17:20):
Yeah, so and men don't live as long as women,
so h, I think there's probably a distinct possibility that
that first husband has probably passed on by now.

Speaker 10 (17:30):
I don't know.

Speaker 8 (17:31):
We don't know for sure.

Speaker 10 (17:32):
He didn't have a wife slowly killing him for sixty
years either, so he may be just fine. The but yeah,
when you look at the legal side of it, I
still see it seems like there should be something not
okay about it, you know what I mean, But there's not.

(17:53):
I guess there's really not. I mean, I'm sure there's
some gray area, like if she did take out loans
or sign the paperwork under that fought under the new
name or.

Speaker 11 (18:01):
Whatever, like, had we gotten her the name that she's
been living under right now, we could probably find out
if she has some kind of criminal history. But again
that was that information has not been released, so all
we've got a speculation.

Speaker 10 (18:15):
Well again, like I said, I just thought about this
too when we were talking about it. There's no proof
that she actually did change her name. Really, yeah, she
could have kept her name and just nobody really tried
looking for He.

Speaker 11 (18:28):
Just didn't care to look for Like he wasn't that
vengeful or anything, which is a great thing.

Speaker 8 (18:33):
I mean, especially for an abusive husband.

Speaker 11 (18:36):
You would think a lot of times, you know, running
out of the family, that's gonna cause him to be.

Speaker 8 (18:40):
Very, very angry, and perhaps I want to retaliate.

Speaker 10 (18:43):
Perhaps the babysitter she left with was her replacement already,
I mean, yeah, if she.

Speaker 8 (18:50):
Was some kind of nanny or something like that.

Speaker 11 (18:52):
I mean, you all hear, it's old cliche, you know,
the husband's sleeping with a nanny.

Speaker 10 (18:57):
But again that's a speculation. We shouldn't depth to far
into that. I just wish there was more information to
follow up from their side too.

Speaker 11 (19:05):
Amazing because usually these cold cases, they don't end with
the person in question being alive when they find them. Right,
So I think that that in and of itself, after
sixty two years, I think that is amazing.

Speaker 10 (19:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (19:21):
And the fact that, I mean, she's apparently healthy and
living a normal life, so she just again walked away
from her situation, right.

Speaker 8 (19:32):
And I mean twenty years old, that's very very young.
I was only twenty two when.

Speaker 10 (19:37):
I had She was twenty years old with two kids.

Speaker 8 (19:40):
Yeah, so I only had the tiny tire when I
was twenty two.

Speaker 10 (19:44):
You're looking at more than likely the first child was
born somewhere seventeen year old. Are at least pregnant at
that point.

Speaker 11 (19:50):
Yeah, we don't know the ages of the children, but
she didn't have two children.

Speaker 10 (19:54):
Well you're looking at eighteen months at least, you know
what I mean. Yeah, right, there's eighteen.

Speaker 8 (20:01):
I would have thought like maybe eighteen or so at
the very least.

Speaker 10 (20:05):
Well, I say you take eighteen months out of it
from twenty you're looking at at the young at the
oldest would be eighteen and a half. Right, Yeah, so
you're gonna look at maybe six months in between the
two kids, you know, on the short end. So that
puts her sixteen, late sixteen, seventeen years old. Yeah, but
that's early.

Speaker 11 (20:25):
For that time too. Like in the sixties, I guess
getting married at that age wasn't really as taboo as
we think it is now. Like that, I mean, that's
fairly normal. These girls, you know, late high schooler, have
already graduated high school and want to go ahead.

Speaker 8 (20:40):
And make their lives and everything. So they get married
and start having babies.

Speaker 10 (20:43):
Yeah. Well it's Wisconsin, so they want to get out
of there as quick as they can. So I'm sure
they start early. But like I said, we talked about
some of the moral justifications for it. Obviously with abuse,
shot like self preservation would be part of it.

Speaker 11 (21:00):
My first instant because again I've also lived this, and
everything is that fight or flight response.

Speaker 8 (21:05):
Yeah, Like you see these.

Speaker 11 (21:08):
Battered women and everything, they go one of two ways
they leave or they kill the guy, yeah right, or flight.

Speaker 10 (21:16):
Yeah, because if her allegations are indeed real about the
severe abuse, and what she was doing was escaping severe abuse,
physical abuse, and actual threats to her life, which intent
to escalate on those threats. So I mean I always.

Speaker 11 (21:36):
Said that my only choice was taking the tiny turrant
and leaving because otherwise I would end it up on
the news.

Speaker 10 (21:41):
Yeah, so her self preservation was definitely justified. Again, it's
just so hard to think about leaving the kids behind,
but we have situation, but we have some other examples
coming up to where that's not uncommon. I see, you know,
we see that women have.

Speaker 8 (21:59):
Just picked up and left everything, including their own children.

Speaker 10 (22:02):
Well, in the last series in the Cults, we saw
where some women had escaped and they had to leave
their kids behind.

Speaker 11 (22:08):
You know, they had to. They still fought after they
left and everything to get their kids back. We have
no idea if this particular woman, yeah, did that, Like,
we don't know the circumstances of that side of it so.

Speaker 10 (22:26):
Well, Like I said, especially here with our moral values,
like the parental responsibility that's top tier, you know, very
high importance for the children's well being.

Speaker 11 (22:39):
Again, I refer back to my own experiences. My only
thought process was he's going to start doing it to
her too, so.

Speaker 8 (22:46):
I have to get her out of this, right so,
like like she was with me when I left.

Speaker 10 (22:51):
Right, So, like I said, it's easy to get in
that mindset, especially where it's a parent's duty to you
got to try to attack their kids no matter what,
before they you know, even before themselves. And to see
these situations where they do leave the kids behind, it's
it's hard to.

Speaker 11 (23:12):
Understand it.

Speaker 10 (23:12):
How I'm doing air quotes here put themselves in front
of their children like that, you know, because that just
seems backwards for what we feel, and I think a
lot of our listeners would feel the same way too.
It's I get the situation. We can't imagine. Most of
us can imagine the type of situation she was in.

(23:34):
Some of you can present company included, but again, walking
away from the kids and maybe it's justifiable in her mind.
Obviously was it to some point.

Speaker 8 (23:50):
We don't understand her mental state.

Speaker 11 (23:51):
We have. Shees not come out and talked about anything
since then. So I mean all of this is us
just kind of openly discussing this kind of thing and
more speculating than anything else.

Speaker 10 (24:05):
That's why again, I'm gonna be watching the reports and
stuff to see if the children do speak up, or
if the husband's around, see he speaks up, if somebody
else involved that was left behind that comes out and
says something, because I would love to see their side
of it.

Speaker 11 (24:23):
I wonder if that babysitter or nanny is still around,
like if she'll come out and like talk about the
day she saw her just turn that corner and never
come back.

Speaker 10 (24:30):
Well, she made they had a statement, the police apartment
had that statement that she made during the initial investigation.
But that's really it. I mean, that was her direct statement,
is that she walked down the corner and just never
came back.

Speaker 11 (24:43):
Yeah, So if she was a nanny or a babysitter
or anything like that, she was obviously close to the
family because they trusted her.

Speaker 8 (24:50):
With the children.

Speaker 10 (24:50):
Yeah, I know it said babysitter in the report. But
to me, it's still it seems more like family friend
type person. And ye got that label put on them
because why was they need a babysitter if they were
in her presence? You know, that just doesn't that just
seems weird.

Speaker 8 (25:07):
Like I said, it could have been a nanny type situation.

Speaker 11 (25:09):
You know, we have no idea.

Speaker 8 (25:12):
I don't know that woman wasn't named though, was she?

Speaker 10 (25:15):
No, I didn't get a name from. But like I said, again,
it's we gotta be careful going with any kind of
judgment against her, even though it's it's kind of our
nature to do so, because again, it's nineteen sixty two,
and times back then was a lot different, especially for
a twenty year old young woman, you know.

Speaker 8 (25:37):
With arguably too young kids probably so.

Speaker 10 (25:42):
I mean, back then, you know, it's very likely to
have any or if you did have any, very small,
very few resources available to you for kind of say
you would I.

Speaker 11 (25:53):
Imagine she probably didn't work outside the home. She was
probably a homemaker. You know, husband was the breadwinner and everything,
and you know that kind of dynamic and everything, especially
for inter use of man. He's going to tell her
you know, what are you going to do? You have
no resources, you have no money. Everything you've got is
from me. You have no place to go on providing

(26:13):
the house roof over your head. You know, what are you.

Speaker 8 (26:16):
Going to do without me?

Speaker 10 (26:18):
Right and then like you said, leaving your family and
all that was especially back in the day was unthought
of divorce rates and all that was very much shamed,
you know, So resources for her was probably will be

(26:38):
very limited. And even with the police side of it,
like even today when you have a complaint, a lot
of times and rightfully so, it can be argued that
police can't do anything until the crime has been made.
You know, say, the.

Speaker 11 (26:55):
Police don't exist to prevent crime. They can only arrest
you after a has been credited.

Speaker 10 (27:01):
And we all know that restraining orders is just a
piece of paper.

Speaker 8 (27:05):
If they violate the restraining order, then that person can
be arrested.

Speaker 11 (27:08):
But the threats they violate the restraining order, you might
not be allowed to follow.

Speaker 10 (27:12):
Or exactly like I said, from her reports of what
she was already facing, the abuse wise, plus the threats
that he was making, you know, and.

Speaker 8 (27:22):
Then imagine, I can't even imagine like the fear this.

Speaker 11 (27:25):
Woman was living with exactly like I've you know, I've
lived through my own you know, abuse and everything from
my first marriage. But it never escalated the point that
he was actually threatening to kill me.

Speaker 10 (27:39):
But like I said earlier, when he was dealing with
the dogs, he had actually had a gun that he
showed her and told her basically, this is to keep
you in.

Speaker 8 (27:47):
Line, so terrifying every waking minute.

Speaker 11 (27:54):
In fear.

Speaker 10 (27:56):
So And again that's one of the things she told
the is want the sheriffs department. That's one of the
reasons she told him. That's why she left, and that
she didn't want to be brought back into it. So
I'm assuming she has lived in sixty two years. She's
got a whole new life.

Speaker 8 (28:14):
Let's say she probably has like a whole new family
and everything. I would imagine, So.

Speaker 10 (28:22):
Yeah, I imagine she'd have to have a whole new
family and all that. And I could imagine that these
kids had to be small, under five for sure, I'm
gonna guess, so even after all that time, So even
after all that time, they've got a whole new life too.

(28:44):
So it makes you wonder if finding them is really
worth it. Kind of and we'll actually touch on that
later on a couple of other stories I have picked
out too. Oh and for everybody listening, I picked these
stories out tonight.

Speaker 8 (28:56):
Yeah, he's leading the charge tonight since I'm doing so
getting ready for tomorrow.

Speaker 10 (29:01):
So as I bring this information out and it's just
basically an open conversation with her with bump Stock Barbie,
and we're just kind of hashing it out together because
she hasn't really looked into it. She's been super busy
all week and busy again tonight, so I'm kind of

(29:21):
picking the stories out tonight.

Speaker 11 (29:22):
So yeah, almost like we did a Thanksgiving but at
least this was like I knew the case ahead of time,
at least this main one that we're talking about.

Speaker 10 (29:30):
You kind of know what's going on with this one,
but you've not really looked into it very much.

Speaker 11 (29:34):
So you've done a little more research and show notes,
which is usually.

Speaker 8 (29:38):
What I do before a show. Yeah, but again, being
busy and.

Speaker 11 (29:41):
Everything you're handling, you're taking the charge, the lead charge
and everything on this one.

Speaker 10 (29:46):
So we've kind of talked about the legality of it,
we looked at some of the morality of it, and
now we just kind of co back compassion versus judgment.
I guess trying to hold off judgment and finding some
compassion for her. It's because again some understanding. Maybe we

(30:09):
don't have.

Speaker 11 (30:10):
A ton of details, so I mean, we don't know
what the catalyst was to make her decide I just
got to get out, I gotta walk away. Well, the
cat with nothing but the clothes on her back.

Speaker 10 (30:20):
Yeah, what what she said was just the abuse and
the Now I don't know what that straw was.

Speaker 8 (30:27):
I mean, there had to be that straw that that broke.

Speaker 10 (30:30):
That camel's fad. The situation tends to make me think
there's either pre planning on her part or there's more
to it. Because they were at the train station, right, she.

Speaker 8 (30:42):
Had where they were going or coming from.

Speaker 10 (30:43):
She had someone there with her child to leave her
child with, and then she walks away. So did they
randomly out on the walk just happened to go to
the train station and she leave.

Speaker 11 (30:54):
Like I said, I imagine being at the train station,
they were either going somewhere or coming from somewhere, or
and this was pre planned, like she just hopped.

Speaker 8 (31:01):
A train somewhere.

Speaker 10 (31:02):
I think she obviously got on the train and left,
which means she would have to have a ticket. So
I wonder if this babysitter.

Speaker 8 (31:10):
Was Okay, that's interesting.

Speaker 10 (31:12):
I wondered this babysitter was had went to the train
station with her, knowing what the plan was, and was
helping with the I.

Speaker 8 (31:19):
Mean, that's entirely possible. But again with the train ticket
and everything, that seems to have been obvious. Like if
I'm going to leave, like uproot my entire life and.

Speaker 11 (31:28):
Just leave, I would go to a train station and
everything and then just walk away and go to like
a bus station or something. Yeah, but I imagine that
they probably asked bus station attendance and you know workers
or the train station workers and everything. Did you see
this woman? Did you sell this woman a ticket? If
you did, where was the ticket? They would have done all.

Speaker 10 (31:49):
Of this, assuming that that's how they would have followed it.
In the seaties she could have walked in. She would
have paid with cash, because again it's the seats, he said,
But no to trace it. And if you all go
up to the station and say, hey, give me a
ticket to El Paso, here's eighteen dollars that that person
go back cool taking cash into your ticket, they may

(32:10):
not even look at you, I say.

Speaker 11 (32:12):
I mean, it would obviously depend on how busy the
train station was, or the bus station or wherever else
you know, she might have gone or to get to
get away.

Speaker 8 (32:24):
But yeah, I mean the police procedure back then was
still kind of standard.

Speaker 11 (32:28):
So yes, they would have interviewed all of the employees
that were working that day at that time, right and.

Speaker 8 (32:34):
You know, showing a photo did you see this woman?
Did you sell this woman a ticket?

Speaker 10 (32:38):
Assuming that they really that the husband even pushed it
because the missing they.

Speaker 8 (32:46):
Still have to do that just as a matter of protocol.

Speaker 10 (32:48):
Yeah, depending on when she was reported missing, what information
they had at the time, because remember the the uh
the authorities didn't investig this until after all this started
coming out. They didn't put much effort into in the sixties.
So I think it's basically this a hey, missing person

(33:11):
gone and there was.

Speaker 11 (33:13):
No foul play, and they probably had other stuff going
on that it took priority.

Speaker 10 (33:18):
I wonder when the again twenty year old in the sixties,
they probably assumed, okay, she's one of those that first
wave going out to California, maybe because that's about the
time that started really rolling in, you know, and we've
talked about that earlier. Now, this was later in the
sixties when the movement started going west to be free,

(33:42):
but you know, it had to start a little earlier again,
the women up the feminist move the feminist movement was
kind of kicking off. There was some stuff going on
in the East coast with the racial wars or not
necessary wars, but stuff that riots and everything going on.
So it was a time of transition for the whole country. Really.

(34:07):
So to me, a twenty year old coming up with cash,
which would be normal, saying get me a ticket anywhere,
but here boom, I wouldn't pay no attention either.

Speaker 11 (34:16):
I'm saying. When they interviewed the babysitter or nanny whoever
she was and everything, and she said, no, I didn't
see anybody grab her. She wasn't a kicking, screaming.

Speaker 10 (34:25):
And again we're assuming we don't know when she was
reported missing or even if they did honestly until later.
So but yeah, like I said, the I guess it's
hard to come up with a a judgment far as
this ride or wrong morality was legally even but yeah,

(34:50):
I mean, the.

Speaker 11 (34:51):
Only part morality wise I get hung up is her
walking away.

Speaker 8 (34:55):
And leaving her children behind. Right now, that's the only
part I get hung up.

Speaker 10 (34:58):
And you've been a mother, and I say, even worse
for you to try to figure out.

Speaker 8 (35:02):
I can't imagine it. I didn't do it, you know,
I mean I toadd my daughter along with me.

Speaker 10 (35:08):
Right. Like for example, people, again, this is a time
in the country where everybody was it's the expression was
starting to build. Self worth was coming out. People was
fighting for their own rights. That movement was starting to

(35:28):
pick up steam. People was reinventing themselves, and there was
kind of a tidal wave building that you can see.

Speaker 11 (35:37):
You could almost call that like in a way, like
a Renaissance type period for the US.

Speaker 10 (35:44):
I can see that.

Speaker 8 (35:45):
I mean, it's not as deep.

Speaker 11 (35:47):
I don't think it absolutely was called like an age
of Enlightenment because I think it led to just complete selfishness.

Speaker 8 (35:54):
And everything else.

Speaker 11 (35:57):
Like I think the intent behind the whole movement everything
was there, But the road to hell is paved with
good intentions.

Speaker 10 (36:08):
I mean, like, this is the.

Speaker 11 (36:09):
Type of movement that you know, we want our own
rights and everything, and we want the rights to make
decisions for ourselves.

Speaker 8 (36:15):
And now look at us with like you know.

Speaker 11 (36:17):
Millions and millions of abortions since then, just about well
because you know, hey, I want to make the decisions
about my own body.

Speaker 8 (36:26):
Okay, Well, if you were doing that in the first place,
you wouldn't have.

Speaker 11 (36:28):
Gotten pregnant sort of rape or something like that, but
that you have no control over.

Speaker 10 (36:32):
But well, back in this fifties into de seatses, it
was basically your woman's mindset was it was their duty
to have kids.

Speaker 8 (36:42):
Yeah, because that's what was taught to them. It was ingrained, it.

Speaker 10 (36:46):
Was expect Again, her being twenty years old, she may
have realized this is especially with that husband, this is
just not the lie for her. This is not what
she wanted. She needed that freedom for her life. Her
being married even back then, of being a plan to
things you might not, I have to say in that
that's why I want an updated conversation.

Speaker 11 (37:07):
Like if you would come out and you know, make
a public statement.

Speaker 10 (37:10):
Or something and then find out from the other side
too to see how they're doing. Be interesting.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
Uh.

Speaker 10 (37:17):
But basically, like I said, we Americans, I can you know,
kind of American culture, especially in that time of day,
we can find value in like reinventing yourself and having
your personal freedoms, you know, but also me personally, I

(37:42):
kind of want some honesty and transparency, especially when like
the families are being affected like this too.

Speaker 11 (37:48):
You know, we keep going back or I keep going back,
you know, I would like to hear from children that
they're still.

Speaker 4 (37:56):
Around, like.

Speaker 11 (37:58):
How old they were and this went out when this
went down.

Speaker 10 (38:02):
And.

Speaker 8 (38:04):
Kind of how they lived with the father after that.

Speaker 10 (38:06):
You know, if he was abusive, right, yeah, it would
be interesting. But hopefully one day we'll get that. But
if not, we got to be ready to respect their
decision to stay quiet about it. You know.

Speaker 8 (38:19):
Yeah, they may not want that kind of spotlight, and
I would.

Speaker 10 (38:22):
Not blame them in the slightest, but I want to
kind of pull away from that for a little while
and look more like it just again the legal perspectives
of it, and just kind of jet case in general
with these people that are involved. Do you want to
do the other I got three other examples, you want
to do those first before we look at the legal

(38:45):
however you want to do it, well, they all kind
of fit into the same category. Then we'll kind of
go over some legal perspectives and then the psychological perspectives
and say You're you've.

Speaker 8 (38:58):
Always been more heaty procedural type.

Speaker 11 (39:03):
I've always been obviously the psychological aspects.

Speaker 10 (39:07):
Well, I've got another one from the sixties. Lucy Anne Johnson.
She disappeared in nineteen sixty one and she was found
again in twenty thirteen, So over fifty years, about fifty

(39:27):
two years here, Lucy Anne Johnson, Canadian vanished from her Oh,
I got to say that correctly. I'm sorry Canadian, No Canadian,
it's Canadian. Yes, it is Canada. It's not Canada, so
it's not Canadian. It's Canadian.

Speaker 1 (39:50):
Excuse me, You're both wrong. That's the Syropean Union.

Speaker 10 (39:57):
But anyway, she vanished from her home in Surrey, British
Columbia and nineteen sixty one, and I guess it's SERI
s U R R e y British Columbia right at
nineteen hundred and sixty one. Her husband reported her missing
four years later.

Speaker 11 (40:24):
Years.

Speaker 10 (40:25):
Yes, in nineteen sixty one, she disappeared from home. Her
husband reported her missing four years later.

Speaker 8 (40:32):
Okay, what was his reasoning for that?

Speaker 10 (40:35):
Leading to suspicion of foul play? Obviously?

Speaker 11 (40:37):
Yeah, Like I.

Speaker 8 (40:39):
Would immediately be like, why did you wake this.

Speaker 10 (40:41):
Song, right, like, dude, come on, so obviously there was
an investigation, no signs that he was, no signs of
foul play, obviously, but again four years later, nobody had
been found obviously because she's not, so they couldn't charge

(41:01):
the guy with anything.

Speaker 8 (41:02):
Well, I mean even then if she if he had
killed her, he had four.

Speaker 11 (41:05):
Years exactly right on, didn't I mean, what about the
rest of her family? I assume she had parents, maybe Sibley's,
Like did it? Did anybody notice that this woman was
not around for four years?

Speaker 10 (41:18):
Right?

Speaker 8 (41:20):
That's insane to me?

Speaker 10 (41:21):
That is very very strange. How I mean he had
to cover four basically for four years. Because it gets
better Johnson h Lucian Johnson revealed. When she was found
again in twenty thirteen, she revealed that she had left
her husband due to abuse again and that she had

(41:43):
attempted to take her children with her, but he had
refused and wouldn't.

Speaker 11 (41:47):
Let her leave, so he knew she was going to leave, yep.
And that even more like him saying like, oh, yeah,
she tried to leave once before with the kids and everything,
and now I didn't report her missing.

Speaker 10 (41:57):
For four years later?

Speaker 8 (41:59):
Like do I would think you killed this woman.

Speaker 10 (42:03):
So in nineteen sixty one, she leaves. In nineteen sixty five,
she's finally reported to be missing. She tried to take
her kids with her when she left, So I think again,
here's where some speculation comes in and just some logic
on my part. I think it was probably something along

(42:23):
lines of, well, you can leave, but you ain't taken
the kids, and she finally did, right, and he's like, Okay, it's.

Speaker 8 (42:30):
So bad, I still have to get out of that.

Speaker 10 (42:32):
And he's kind of like good riddance, and didn't bother
enough to even say anything.

Speaker 11 (42:36):
You know.

Speaker 10 (42:38):
I wonder what triggered her him actually reporting the missing.
Something like if somebody you knew or finally had to
say something. That's what I figure is the catalyst to
get the report go out.

Speaker 11 (42:48):
That it took four years, that's as sounding to me like, again,
even if he didn't do it, somebody else in her
life had to know that she was gone.

Speaker 10 (42:58):
Yeah, you would think again in nineteen sixties though, and
nineteen sixty in Canada, you know, did they have telephones
and stuff in Canada nineteen sixty yes, I don't know.
I don't know what America Junior was like in nineteen
sixty the but yeah, that's what blew my mind was

(43:21):
four year gap between her missing and him actually just saying, oh, yeah,
she's gone.

Speaker 8 (43:26):
I mean, I'm still just floor that again, nobody else
in her life said anything. It doesn't have to be
a spouse that reports you missing. It can be anybody, right,
But why did no one say anything?

Speaker 10 (43:39):
Yeah, I don't know. That's pretty wild. And like I said,
she had other kids, because the way she is found
in twenty thirteen is one of her kids named Ronda.
Her daughter was had been looking for her mother because she,
I guess, was never satisfied with whatever story she was told. Right,

(44:00):
dad had to tell.

Speaker 8 (44:00):
Some story to the kids about where mommy went.

Speaker 10 (44:03):
So finally she sends out a ad in the local
paper there and the you what is it called? I
got it rolled down here somewhere, uh anyways in the
Yukon Times, basically looking for Cornelius.

Speaker 8 (44:21):
In my mind, when I hear Yukon.

Speaker 10 (44:23):
So Yukon Cornelius, the world's greatest Canadian.

Speaker 11 (44:27):
I mean, I'm sorry, but that's just that always flashes
in my head when I hear Yukon.

Speaker 10 (44:33):
Uh, let's see anyways, ron.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
Point of point of order. I'm pretty sure you said
it was Canadian.

Speaker 10 (44:40):
Yeah, Canadian? Did I say again, I'm sorry Canadian, yep.
So she puts out So Ronda puts out a ads
into in the local papers in that area saying, hey,
I'm looking for relatives, and she gives the known names

(45:04):
a slight description other relatives that they may be Ken
too in that area, you know, Lucy Ann Johnson's Ken folks,
and just kind of put a post out there and
all these different newspapers, and she had been doing this
for a while, and finally, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I

(45:30):
told you that is Linda Evans, which is Lucy Ann
Johnson's daughter. Johnson's daughter, Linda Evans tracked her down. Lucien
Linda had put an ad in the in the Yukon
area of local papers papers saying hey, I'm looking for
my relatives, gives the name Lucy An Johnson, the description,

(45:52):
the name of other relatives I may be in that area,
and goes from there. Now Johnson, through the course of
her fifty years of being gone, got remarried. Obviously, her
name changes from Evans to Johnson, and she has other children,

(46:15):
three other kids. So our missing person Lucy and Johnson's
got a whole new life, new husband, three new kids,
living her life in a different section of Canada, still
in British Columbia, but that's a huge place, so it's
all spread out. So Ronda is Johnson's daughter from the

(46:42):
new life. Okay, Ronda seize the ad realizes, Hey, I
think that might be mom. So she does a little
bit of investigating herself and decides she's going to contact
Linda Evans and says, Hey, my name is Frenda. This

(47:02):
woman you're talking about sounds a lot like my mother.
We need to talk. So anyways, they get together. This
is early twenty thirteen. They wind up meeting each other
a few times. Ronda finally talks to her mom, the Lucienne.
Johnson talks to her and they agree to meet, and

(47:23):
finally Linda, the original daughter, flies up to them. Ashley
gets to meet her mom, gets reunited with her mother Lucien,
Anne gets to meet her her three half siblings.

Speaker 11 (47:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (47:40):
So, and according to what the last thing I read
on them, they are still all in contact and it
seems to be a healing top situation.

Speaker 11 (47:50):
I hope it would be because for me, like I
can actually kind of put myself in the situation of
the child that was left behind and the child found
out that there were others siblings that got left behind.
Like on the one hand, like learning that you know,
my mother created this entirely new family just walked away
from us, Like I would have probably some severe issues

(48:13):
because of that, like why didn't she want me? That
kind of thing? And then if I was the other children,
I mean, obviously this Ronda is, you know, not one
of these like selfish and titled little brats or anything.
So she was like, oh my god, I have siblings
that I never knew about until now. She reached out

(48:33):
and everything, and she wanted a relationship with them, because
that's how I would see that too, like like dude, okay,
like mom, you walked out on my brothers and sisters,
you know, Like how I would have questions for her
about that.

Speaker 10 (48:47):
Well that's why, like I said, Lnda's from the original
nineteen sixty one Family and Family, right, So when Ronda
saw the AD, she done the right things. He finally
he reached out to Linda and they met first. And
because from the time the AD went out to the
time they actually got to meet was several months, right,

(49:09):
So I mean they they worked it out and didn't
rush into anything. So I imagine there's a lot of emotions.
Like you're talking about that they.

Speaker 11 (49:16):
I say, you got to that's a whole lot of
processing and everything. And even if you are adults, like
that's still going to bring up all these feelings you
had as a child when your mother walks out.

Speaker 10 (49:27):
Ye And like I said, the Canadian Mounted Police actually
helped with the verification that once that had come out,
and that they did verify that it really was her.

Speaker 11 (49:44):
All the process of it.

Speaker 10 (49:46):
It took a while. It took a while to figure
it out.

Speaker 11 (49:50):
Which is good because there's a there's stories of I
think there's even like a Netflix movie out right now
called like the Impost of this man who just assumes,
ye I do these have missing children and actually dupes
of parents he lived with a set of parents for
a long time claiming that he was a missing son.

Speaker 10 (50:07):
Yeah, there's a few. And I know that was a movie,
but I think there's some actual real.

Speaker 11 (50:12):
Thing is based on that actual guy that did that.

Speaker 10 (50:15):
Wasn't there one where was a woman who's like in
her like a grown ass woman pretending to be a
teenager and this people's family.

Speaker 11 (50:24):
Talking about The Orphan, the horror movie.

Speaker 10 (50:26):
I don't remember where she was.

Speaker 11 (50:29):
She is a fully grown adult and everything, but she's
still like she has some kind of condition that she
looked like a child. Yeah, and she was like terrorizing
this family. I think that was a movie called The Orphan,
which is a great horror movie.

Speaker 10 (50:39):
But we are to do a show when not just
a fun show about good movies and stuff like that.

Speaker 11 (50:43):
Well, especially the ones that have the psychological aspects, like
I talked about yesterday, doing like an episode on the
movie Split. Yeah, for a disassociative identity disorder. Ye, Like,
I think that would just be really fun.

Speaker 10 (50:56):
So that'd be pretty cool.

Speaker 11 (51:00):
I mean, off on a tangent and everything. But again,
this is more like just me and Daniel like we
normally do. It's just being recorded now.

Speaker 10 (51:09):
Yeah tonight. It's basically just a preview. That's what it
looked like. If y'alls looking in the window, watching and listening,
that's kind of what we're doing.

Speaker 11 (51:17):
I say, this is like our normal day to day
type conversations.

Speaker 10 (51:22):
Yeah, it's it's what we call fun again. Air quotes,
I say, you.

Speaker 11 (51:29):
Said, I buried the lead a little bit.

Speaker 10 (51:31):
Yeah, yeah, you did. You say you didn't, but you did.

Speaker 11 (51:35):
I say you were never into this kind of stuff
really before me. Well, I mean through like ostmosis over
the years, it's just kind of gotten ingrained now.

Speaker 10 (51:44):
I mean I was into it, you know, like a
normal human being would be into just.

Speaker 11 (51:50):
The healthy interest.

Speaker 10 (51:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (51:52):
Yeah, I definitely don't have a healthy interest. I don't
think no nine year old should know Jeffer Dahmer's address.

Speaker 10 (51:59):
No nine year old should know Jeffrey Dahmer's name. No
six hear old should read Stephen King. But here you are.

Speaker 11 (52:07):
Daniel says that I am the reason my parents lock
their door at night.

Speaker 10 (52:13):
Well that's the case number two from the Canady and
Lucy and Johnson again alone, fifty years in hiding with
a whole new family and all that kind of stuff.
Allegations of abuse is why she left so kind of
a mirror to the one we just talked about, and.

Speaker 11 (52:33):
Still just astounding, And it seems like there's more information
on that one. So I may circle back to this
in a different episode. But four years and literally no
one reported this woman missing.

Speaker 10 (52:43):
It's the nineteen sixties and it's Canada.

Speaker 11 (52:46):
Still like that should not be like I'm still just
blown away by that. I don't know, like I'm so
hung up on that right now. So eventually I probably
can have an episode where we circle back to this.

Speaker 10 (52:58):
Well, we'll see. So number two, we're coming to the
good old United States of America in Pittsburgh. This one
is let's see, how would I start as interesting?

Speaker 11 (53:17):
My brain immediately went in your kids years of nesting.
But that's eminem and that's the problem.

Speaker 10 (53:22):
And again, Patricia Copta k O p t A. Patricia
Copta went missing in nineteen hundred and ninety two and
was found in twenty twenty three. And this is how

(53:42):
this is a history of mental of mental illness okay
with her?

Speaker 11 (53:50):
Okay, so this one the abuse, She just had something wrong.

Speaker 10 (53:55):
This was a little easier to wrap your mind around,
I think, because there is a history of mental illness
with her.

Speaker 11 (54:01):
Right, Do we know what her diagnosis was?

Speaker 10 (54:04):
No? I could not find. I did not find a
diagnosis other than dementia. Later on when they do find it.
Patricia and Copta a known street preacher from Pittsburgh.

Speaker 11 (54:18):
Okay, so that's given me more almost like the schizophrenia
type Yep.

Speaker 10 (54:23):
She disappeared in nineteen hundred and ninety two. Just a
quick overview. She was legal. She was declared legally dead
after years of unsuccessful searches, so her family was actively
looking for her. In twenty twenty three, she was discovered
living in a nursing home in Puerto Rico, Puerto Rico,

(54:45):
Puerto Rico, and she had dementia in the nursing home.
And this is how I'll get to this in a minute.
How they actually why that matters? Okay, yes, she anyway,

(55:07):
she had left due to mental health issues and quote
a desire for a warmer climate. So basically she started walking.

Speaker 11 (55:16):
South, yeah, or hitching or you know something else.

Speaker 10 (55:22):
DNA from the nursing home finally reveals that, Okay, this
is really her, So it's actually you know, really heard
this time. So no, no, no doubt who this woman is.
So let's say she left behind a husband and siblings.

(55:43):
Does the same thing about children, Okay, her husband and siblings.
She meandered around Pittsburgh as a street preacher.

Speaker 11 (55:57):
Like I said, usually when you get people like that again,
it's given me. And of course I'm no mental health
professional at all, but I mean I study this stuff
for fun. So that sounds very much like kind of
a more schizophrenic type mentality.

Speaker 10 (56:12):
Yes, her husband Bob Copta, and a surviving sister, seventy
eight year old Glorious Smith, or the family that was
finally told, well that was contacted to verify who this
woman wasn't from Puerto Rico. So let me just read

(56:35):
the account here. She left Pittsburgh and disappeared for several years,
wound up in Puerto Rico again, still in the streets
of Puerto Rico, still preaching and living off the streets basically. Okay,
she was taking in as a person quote in me

(57:00):
to an adult care home in nineteen ninety nine in
Puerto Rico. So she's been inside this under the charge
of the state for decades of this year.

Speaker 11 (57:14):
And I mean, if it is something like schizophrenia, that
is a degenerative disease to you of the brain, just
like Alzheimer's dementia is.

Speaker 10 (57:21):
Well, like I said, she disappeared in ninety two. They
declared her dead after several years of looking in Pittsburgh
in ninety nine. She was taken into the care of
the state in Puerto Rico. In nineteen ninety nine.

Speaker 11 (57:35):
So what she disappeared in nineteen ninety.

Speaker 10 (57:37):
Two, right, Yes, from Pittsburgh, and she.

Speaker 11 (57:40):
Was officially taken in as a Jane Doe Bard of
the state as a jain Do in Puerto Rico in
nineteen ninety nine. Yes, because I think across the US federally,
you do have to wait seven years before you can
declare a missing person legally dead. Yeah, so that would track.

Speaker 10 (57:55):
Yeah, like I said, the seven years and she was
a jain Do idea or nothing.

Speaker 11 (58:01):
Yeah, so they could they had no way to contact
the family and let them know that she she is live,
she's down here.

Speaker 10 (58:06):
Yes, and let's see, this is the Ross Township in
Puerto Rico, because you know they they're not exactly made
up like counties and stuff like where, so this is
Ross Township. She had kept her identity vague or secret.

(58:28):
I guess her. She kept her whole Pittsburgh identity secret.
I wonder how much that she the mental illness played
part of that, or if she was just keeping up
the rules. I don't know.

Speaker 11 (58:41):
I mean, if if there was a mental illness there,
like it is, untreated, it's only going to get worse.

Speaker 10 (58:47):
Right, So here's the thing. She was going by the sparrow,
and it was a nickname given to her in Puerto
Rico because of her frail frames. She's real small, real
real priteite, right, So that's what's what they was calling
in despair like the birds. Yeah, okay, and that's how

(59:08):
they knew her. So here's where the dementia comes into play.
While in the nursing home or the adult care facility
in Puerto Rico, her dementia was taken hold and she
was slowly revealing information about herself through.

Speaker 11 (59:28):
Her without even realizing it.

Speaker 10 (59:30):
Just through conversations with the staff and people. And she
had made friends of sorts in Puerto Rico. So they
said that her friends and family and the staff in
Puerto Rico in in that ross township began picking up
clues and putting two and two together. Yeah, that kind
of stuff, right, And I mean that.

Speaker 11 (59:51):
That is actually common with like dementia pations. I remember Daddy,
like getting towards the end and everything, sometimes would either
randomly called like me or call names from his past
or something, or he would kind of think that he
is still back in that time period and he would
talk about like things that he had done and everything.

Speaker 10 (01:00:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (01:00:13):
So yeah, I mean that's just what happens, like your
brain doesn't really recognize when you're present and you know
what time it is, what day it is, what year
it is, or anything. It actually makes you think that
you are back in whatever memory you're reliving at that time.

Speaker 10 (01:00:31):
Yeah, she said that. Well, it says here that she
got to talk about being a preacher in Pittsburgh, and
then they started as more things come out, they started
piecing more and more together.

Speaker 11 (01:00:41):
When that was probably believable. She was doing the same
thing down there in perto Rico, like she was doing
the street preaching and everything. So when they were like, okay,
you know, she mentioned doing this in Pittsburgh too, so
they started checking.

Speaker 10 (01:00:53):
Well, she started in through her dementia, started mentioning names,
her own name, but again not an enough to actually
identify her with.

Speaker 11 (01:01:02):
But it comes in like bits and pieces.

Speaker 10 (01:01:05):
The clues were there.

Speaker 11 (01:01:07):
It's like a giant puzzle that they give you when
they're in this condition and everything, and you just kind
of like the little bits that they give you. It's
just a little piece.

Speaker 10 (01:01:15):
And says here that you said the puzzle. It says
the people who were with her finally started connecting the pieces.

Speaker 11 (01:01:23):
Yeah, and that's what you have to do.

Speaker 10 (01:01:26):
They contacted the police, the police there in that township, right,
and then they connected with Pittsburgh Police Department about a
cold case on this woman's name. So of course they
look it up and there you are it, says the
exact quote. Said. As she talked and as she as

(01:01:48):
she asked and spoke more, she leaked enough details about
her identity that they were able to connect enough dots
and contact us. This is the policeman in Pittsburgh, now
the detective.

Speaker 11 (01:02:01):
Yeah, I mean this was still like early to mid
to late nineties and everything. So yes, we did have
DNA technology, and her family probably did have some stuff
like hair brush or toothbrush, you know, maybe something like
that that had something that they could test.

Speaker 10 (01:02:16):
Yep.

Speaker 11 (01:02:16):
So that's how they were able to connect the DNA exactly.

Speaker 10 (01:02:19):
So twenty twenty three, a social worker at the home
where they were, where she was living in Puerto Rico
alerted authorities back in Pittsburgh that the now eighty three
year old woman in their care matched this description and everything,
and they sent DNA to them. They tested with known

(01:02:40):
DNA for this woman and I'm assuming like you said, yeah,
And it was a match, perfect match. So that's who
she is. And so they call Bob Kopta and the
surviving sister, Gloria Smith, asking the information about Copta's life,

(01:03:02):
Patricia's life.

Speaker 11 (01:03:04):
They would see if it matched up to what.

Speaker 10 (01:03:05):
She and they started filling in those puzzle pieces and
that all Matt's perfectly. Then when the DNA finally come through,
they were like, Okay, this is absolutely it. Glorious Smith,
the sister, her quote was this, you know, absolute shock.
I didn't believe it. I was. I was in total shock.

Speaker 11 (01:03:22):
Yeah, I mean after that long you, I mean, with
no evidence of whatsoever that this person is alive. Like,
in order to move on, you kind of have to
convince yourself, Okay, they're just gone. You know, it's awful,
but you can go through that grieving process and you
can move on with your life.

Speaker 10 (01:03:40):
Right. But they said that back in Pittsburgh before she
left me talking about being a roadside preacher. She was
usually when the ballgamess happened, and she will stay outside ballgames.
She will warm people about the end of the times.
You know that that kind of you, I say.

Speaker 11 (01:04:01):
Usually with street preachers it's always like gloom and doom.

Speaker 10 (01:04:04):
So and the family, Bob, the husband, and the sister
said that they had news that she was suffering from
mental health issues and it was getting worse and they
were going to have her institutionalized before she disappeared. I
don't know that played a party into it, or just
the timing.

Speaker 11 (01:04:22):
Maybe it was coincidental, or maybe she knew that they
wanted to put her in a place that could handle
her situation and she didn't want to be there, so
she fled like.

Speaker 10 (01:04:34):
Well, she like I said she before she began doing
the preach. And you can see the decline from this
woman here.

Speaker 11 (01:04:44):
Uh.

Speaker 10 (01:04:44):
She was a straight A student who became a model
and dance instructor after graduating high school. She worked in
a She worked in finance at a local business there
in Pittsburgh. She had ballroom dancing events week. She and
her friends would take vacations together. He and her husbands

(01:05:06):
would take vacations together. And that she had vacation in
Puerto Rico with her friends before she had gotten married
to Bob Okay.

Speaker 11 (01:05:15):
So she had a connection to Puerto.

Speaker 10 (01:05:19):
Rico, a connection to Puerto Rico. So when she left
for a warmer climate. That's where she went back to Puerto.

Speaker 11 (01:05:25):
Rico, somewhere she was kind of somewhat familiar with. Yeah,
I mean usually stuff like that.

Speaker 8 (01:05:31):
It's not shocking to see, like, you know, what you would.

Speaker 11 (01:05:34):
Consider a normal, straight laced kid and everything does well
in school, has no issues. Mental illness has a tendency
to set in in your late teens through your twenties.

Speaker 10 (01:05:45):
She said, right before she had shortly before she began
her preaching and going on, she was complaining heavily of
migraines and stuff, and she quits her job, right, Yeah,
that's when the family noticed a severe change in her
as far as her attitude and her mental stability. And

(01:06:08):
she had went to the hospital with her migraines and
spent a little bit of time just in the regular hospital,
and she claimed that she had seen an angel there
and the angel spoke to her. That's why she started preaching.

Speaker 11 (01:06:21):
See again, it's seeming very strongly to me to be
some kind of schizophrenic type illness.

Speaker 10 (01:06:26):
Shortly after Copta began preaching and was briefly institutionalized with
the migraines, trying to find a diagnosis.

Speaker 11 (01:06:35):
So they would test for like brain tumors and stuff,
especially if she's having hallucinations with it.

Speaker 10 (01:06:39):
Doctor diagnosed her with delusions of grandeur and said that
she had signs of schizophrenia, but did not give her
a formal diagnosis.

Speaker 11 (01:06:52):
But I mean that seems very very strong with me.
I mean I've said it from the beginning, and he
says Stree preacher, I was like, probably see it a
bring head.

Speaker 10 (01:06:59):
Then, so upon her release from that hospital, she went
back but never took up a normal job again. That's
when her street preaching and mornings became more and more frequent. Yeah,
announced to the point had become a daily routine.

Speaker 11 (01:07:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (01:07:14):
And then she disappeared in nineteen ninety two. It was
assumed that foul play was involved her being on the
street like that, Yeah, Bob Coptus said, he told ap
Associated Press. His quotes is I came home when not
and she was gone. She was just wasn't there. She
was just gone. At that point. That had been married

(01:07:38):
twenty years when she disappeared.

Speaker 11 (01:07:43):
I mean, we're going up on ten years. But if
I like, I mean, put yourself in that man's situation, like,
you know, that's got to be heartbreaking too, because I
mean he obviously cared, right, but then like you see
your wife's decline and everything, and then one day she's
just gone like that has to be terrifying in a way.

Speaker 10 (01:08:01):
So you had mentioned seven years earlier about the death certificate.
This is where it's interesting. Remember she disappears ninety two.
She gets Jane Doad into the healthcare system as a
ward of the state in Puerto Rican. The disappearance stumped
the authorities and the family. Both police went as far
as consulting a psychic at the time trying to find her,

(01:08:23):
with no help at all, no leads at all. Then
Bob Copta recalled his wife talking about going to Puerto
Rico with her girlfriends before they got married, and that
she loved it for its balmy weather quote unquote right.
So he, along with the authorities published ads in the

(01:08:44):
Puerto Rican newspapers at the time trying to find her.
But they smart, but they never got any kind of
response from Puerto Rico. Nobody ever responded to that ads.

Speaker 11 (01:08:54):
It. I mean, you got to think certain areas of
Puerto Rico are probably kind of overrunning people like that,
so they didn't have time to like kind of sift
through all of them.

Speaker 10 (01:09:04):
Yeah, Bob. Another thing he says is as I went
through a lot, every time they'd find a body somewhere,
I'd wonder, is it gonna be Patricia? So, I mean
he was obviously distraught, he was looking right, that's awful, right.
It says that years went by, obviously to no sign

(01:09:26):
of her, no response from Puerto Rico, and he obtained
a death declaration seven years after her disappearance. So again,
like I said, it's I.

Speaker 11 (01:09:35):
Think that's like the general rule across all fifty stage
you have to like seven years to declare missing person
legally that but.

Speaker 10 (01:09:41):
I thought that the time frame was unique because it's
seven years after disappearance that she gets taken in as
a ward. So all that happened at the same time. Now,
when cop when Patricia was taken in as a ward,
they was asking her questions, how did you know where
she from? All that? She says that she arrived in
Puerto Rico via a cruise ship from Europe. It's what

(01:10:03):
she had told him.

Speaker 11 (01:10:05):
I said, I sincerely doubt this woman got all the
way to Europe and then took a cruise ship to
Puerto Rico.

Speaker 10 (01:10:10):
Yeah again, I mean that's just a sign that her
real stability was gone.

Speaker 11 (01:10:15):
So, I mean, she clearly was suffering hallucinations and delusions
and all this kind of stuff.

Speaker 10 (01:10:20):
So yeah, but she had spent time wondering the islands
in the north towns. I'm not even gonna try to
announce them. But anyway, southwest of the capital of San Juan,
it's where she was basically located at if you know
anything what Puerto Rico look like. But anyhow, Bob Cocta

(01:10:41):
never remarried. He does, he did move on with his life,
but he did not take on an you wife or
anything in his mind. He said goodbye to her and
she's gone from his life. Right. The social work from
Puerto Rico contacted the police in Pittsburgh. It took almost

(01:11:05):
a year for DNA samples to confirm that the woman
was indeed Patricia Kopta. It just I guess time frame.
It takes a long time for myself to work. Bob
the husband said. His quote is it's a sad thing,
but it's a relief off my mind in my heart.
When your wife goes missing, you're a suspect. Well yeah,

(01:11:25):
obviously he said that he's very glad to know that
through all this time that she was taken care of
and that she's being taken care of now. But at
his age, he doesn't plan to visit, and he's just
gonna be content with trying to beget the past and
living out of the rest of his days. Again, He's
almost ninety at this point, so.

Speaker 11 (01:11:46):
I mean, I can't blame him at all. I mean,
I just can't. I feel sorry for him. Yeah, I
feel sorry for her too, obviously, But him having his
wits about him and everything and understanding all of this
is happening, that's ultimately worse to me.

Speaker 10 (01:12:03):
One of the things he said is that he has
to make peace with this, because he made peace with
it before. She could have come home at any time,
and she always wanted to go to a warmer climate.
I'm glad that she's there, and I'm glad that she's
been taken care of now. The sister wants to go
to the Islands and visit. She says that she's been

(01:12:23):
unable to speak to her Patricia over the phone because
she can't hold a conversation at this point because she's
so far gone with a dimension. Patricia had a twin
sister who had died years and years ago, who never
knew that, and of course never knew to whereabouts Patricia.

(01:12:46):
So there is another sister, h So what's her name? Smith,
the sister that's alive now, Gloria. Yeah, her vote is
whether she knows me or not. I still want to
see her and give her a hug and tell her
that I love her. I thought all these years that

(01:13:07):
she had probably had already died and I had missed
that chance. So I think she wants to do that
for her own closure.

Speaker 11 (01:13:12):
I'd say that that's definitely a closure thing, like getting
that time to say goodbye. And yeah, I mean that's
absolutely a closure thing, and I understand it. I get it.

Speaker 8 (01:13:24):
I'd probably want the same thing.

Speaker 10 (01:13:26):
Well, like I said, And this one is a little
different because it's a mental illness issue. That's why the
disappearance happened, fear of being institutionalized and not being able
to get back here.

Speaker 11 (01:13:35):
Say, she was probably running, but for an entirely different
reason than the other cases you've talked about.

Speaker 10 (01:13:40):
And there wasn't any children involved in this one, which
is a little different too.

Speaker 11 (01:13:43):
Yeah, small relief there.

Speaker 10 (01:13:46):
Right, So do you want to add anything on that
one before we moved to Kimberly.

Speaker 11 (01:13:54):
No, I think again leaving it off with Gloria saying,
you know, she still wants to get that closure and everything.
I think that's a good stopping point for that one.

Speaker 10 (01:14:02):
Okay. So now this one is a little different again. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
She was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. She disappeared, Okay, she
was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, October sixteenth, nineteen sixty eight.

(01:14:25):
She disappeared late October nineteen eighty six from Pennsylvania as well.
And this lady she passed away December twenty fourth, twenty
ten in Longview, Texas. Pretty sad ending on her all right,
So Kimberly Maria McLean an American identity thief. Okay, So

(01:14:51):
this one takes the legal adity out of it. I mean,
obviously clear crime right. Who was later found out you
know who she was and exposed and she died by
suicide in the driveway of her former in law's home
in Longview, Texas on December twenty fourth, twenty ten.

Speaker 11 (01:15:12):
Does it say why she went back to their house?

Speaker 10 (01:15:14):
Uh? Well, former in laws being in their former now
it was her in law's house. Current in laws at
the time of death. Okay, so I should when it
talks about x's husband, they were not X husband. They
were together at the moment of death, that kind of thing.

Speaker 11 (01:15:31):
Okay, So not an ex husband.

Speaker 10 (01:15:32):
But now, yeah, is how I should say?

Speaker 11 (01:15:36):
That was his now late wife.

Speaker 10 (01:15:38):
So she died of suicide and died in the driveway
of her in law's home in December twenty ten. How
basically how she should say. Now, the lady, the woman
who shot herself, it is Laura Laurie Erica Kennedy Rough. Okay,

(01:16:00):
that's the identities she took.

Speaker 11 (01:16:02):
Okay, so that was the name she was living under
at the time of her death.

Speaker 10 (01:16:06):
So Lori's Erica Kennedy Rough committed suicide and the driveway
for in laws home in long View, Texas, on December
twenty fourth, shot herself.

Speaker 11 (01:16:17):
Yes, that's pretty rare for women. Why women typically want
cleaner ways to go.

Speaker 10 (01:16:24):
Right, That's just an interesting note. I wonder too, it's Texas.
Maybe it was easy, But.

Speaker 11 (01:16:32):
I say, if you're dead serious pun intended about doing this,
like a gun is probably the best way to go
or a high building, you know, because I mean you
can't unjump or unpull a trigger with pills or you know,
even sharp objects. You know, there is a chance for

(01:16:52):
you to be saved from that. Yeah, but those those
two jumping or by gun, those are the two most
lethal ways to do it.

Speaker 10 (01:17:03):
So we're gonna refer to her as rough throughout this
part until we get to the explanation. Right. So, she
was born to James and Dianne McLean. She grew up
in the suburbs in Pennsylvania. Her parents divorced, and the

(01:17:26):
mother took her and her sister away and married and
got remarried to a guy named Robert Becker and moved
the family to Wincote, which is another winey Winecoat, which
is another place in Pennsylvania. She had a very difficult
time adjusting to new environment and did not get along

(01:17:48):
with her mother or stepfather at all. And then the
fall of nineteen eighty six, this eight after reaching her
eighteenth birthday, she moved away without a word to the
nearby town of King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, and she completely
cut off contact with her family all sides. So she split,

(01:18:11):
cut all ties and was gone as soon as she
turned eighteen. Now, this was as MacLean right, So here's
where the legal troubles began in nineteen eighty eight, she
obtained the birth certificate of a girl named Becky Sue

(01:18:33):
Turner at a two year old girl who had died
along with two of her siblings and a house fire
in Washington. So she somehow gets hold of these documents, right,
she requested a birth certificate.

Speaker 11 (01:18:46):
So what year are we talking about here?

Speaker 10 (01:18:48):
Seventy one?

Speaker 11 (01:18:49):
Okay, yeah, this is well before like they digitize any records.

Speaker 10 (01:18:52):
So the kids, the kids died in seventy one. This
was in nineteen eighty eight when she was.

Speaker 11 (01:18:58):
Yeah, still really no digitized records. So yeah, she probably
just went to the courthouse and snuck it out somehow
and altered it and did there were a ton of
ways to do that back then.

Speaker 10 (01:19:08):
Right, So the birth state of these kids who had
died is California, Bakersfield, California. So McLean knew that the
kids had died in outside of the state that they
were born in, so that it would be cross restaurants

(01:19:30):
over a couple of different states, right. And when she
finally was got hold of the birth certificates, she then
traveled to Idaho, where she used the documents to obtain
a state ID card under the Becky Sue Turner name
in Idaho and got a state ID card back in

(01:19:52):
nineteen eight, so she posed this Becky Sue Turner. She
moved to Dallas this is July fifth of eighty eight,
and under that name Becky C. Turner, with all the
correct paperwork, birth certificate, state idea and all that. Then
she legally changes her names to Lorie Erica Kennedy while

(01:20:15):
in Dallas, Texas again eighty eight, so this is before
computers connection.

Speaker 11 (01:20:21):
It's a lot easier to pull this off back.

Speaker 10 (01:20:23):
Then, after getting the new name change, she got a
new Social Security number with the showing the new name.
So now she has a whole new security number SOCI
security number right and basically new ID, new birth certificate
or false ID, false verth certificate, changed her name legally

(01:20:45):
off based on them, got a new legitimate sociecurity number
on the new name. Her old identity at this port's
erased right of course, you know, I mean it's very
easy now. So using her new socialecurity number, she gets
a Texas driver's license in nineteen eighty nine, gets her
ged the following year.

Speaker 11 (01:21:07):
By saying.

Speaker 8 (01:21:09):
I know it's identity theft. But at least now that you've.

Speaker 11 (01:21:13):
Got like a Texas driver's license, you've got the high
school equivalency basically diploma. Like, now you are legitimizing this
identity because these documents are quote unquote legit like.

Speaker 10 (01:21:27):
So she's doing it right, she's smart with it right.
So in ninety seven she actually graduates from the University
of Texas at Arlington with a degree in business administration
as Lori Erica Kennedy. She has recorded residing in California, Idaho,
Las Vegas, and now Texas. As Lori Erica Kennedy. She

(01:21:51):
gets married in two thousand and three to John Blake
Lee Rough, a sign of a prominent family from East Texas.
They found each other in a Bible study class. They
described her as being incredibly secretive, particularly regarding her past.
She didn't want to talk about anything so exciting that

(01:22:13):
it was traumatic and she just didn't want to talk
about it.

Speaker 11 (01:22:17):
Smart, yeah, because that would either require the truth or
then she's going to keep up with these lies that
she's told other people and that could trip her up.
So that's pretty smart.

Speaker 10 (01:22:28):
So Blake's mother never really bought into it, didn't like
the couple being together and all that was.

Speaker 11 (01:22:39):
So Mama's instincts are usually right.

Speaker 10 (01:22:41):
Exactly right. So after putting pressure on the two, they
decided to Elope and they got married. The only people
there was the only person attendance on their wedding was
the offishiating preacher and one legal witch. That was it.

(01:23:04):
They moved to Leonard, Texas. After that, they tried several
times having children. She had multiple miscarriages, adding to the
turmoil between the two of them, and she eventually gave
birth to a baby girl, via in betroth fertilization. Yeah,
in two thousand and eight. Because of her history with

(01:23:30):
the divorces and all this kind of stuff, she is
extremely protective of the daughter after all the miscarriagters, you understand,
I mean, she was very very protective of them, right.

Speaker 11 (01:23:39):
Say, you go through all that and you finally have
this child and everything, you do whatever you can to
protect them, you know, like to the point of probably
becoming like the world's worst helicopter mom, you know.

Speaker 10 (01:23:56):
It says as time went on, the the arguments became
worse and worse. The rift between her and the Rough
family was getting worse and worse and worse. Right, super
protected about the child, eventually the point that that she
would not let the rough in laws have any contact

(01:24:17):
with her daughter whatsoever. As a result, finally Blake had
filed for divorce. They had separated, and well, he had
separated and moved back into his family's home there in Longview, Texas,
and filed for divorce, leaving Laurie with the daughter in Leonard, Texas. Okay,

(01:24:38):
so they was They wasn't divorcing thing yet, They was
going through the process.

Speaker 11 (01:24:44):
They were separated and all of the legal steps were
in motion.

Speaker 10 (01:24:49):
Yeah, this is leading up to the suicide here, because
he was asked earlier why she had done it. So
basically he was.

Speaker 11 (01:24:58):
Staying at his parents' house, the in laws, that's where
she went to die.

Speaker 10 (01:25:02):
Yes. In the months between the separation and Laurie's suicide,
Laurie became even more radic. A neighbor reported that she
had that she and her daughter appeared to be undernourished,
sometimes dressed in the same clothes for days on end. Yeah,

(01:25:26):
just in shambles all the time.

Speaker 11 (01:25:28):
Basically, right, how old was it daughter by this point?

Speaker 10 (01:25:32):
I don't have that yet, No.

Speaker 11 (01:25:36):
And we're still obviously fairly young.

Speaker 10 (01:25:38):
So yeah, well, she had begun harassing the Roughs and
the whole family, basically blaming them for the separation. You know,
that they were the ones causing the distress between her
and her husband and all this kind of stuff. She

(01:25:59):
went over to the house one time and they realized
that the set of keys of the house had become
had was missing at that point, so they had to
have changed all the locks. Yeah, and all this stuff
going on.

Speaker 11 (01:26:09):
With everything else going on, you have to take that
step exactly.

Speaker 10 (01:26:13):
And the Roughs, not the husband, but the rough family
had a cease and desist and a restrain in order
to put out against lord.

Speaker 11 (01:26:21):
Yeah, which I mean if he's staying with his parents
and everything, that means that she can't go near him
as long as he's like in their house, because I
assume the seas and desist or the restraining order was
like you can't come within a certain number of feet
or whatever between them or like any of their property.

Speaker 4 (01:26:42):
Right.

Speaker 10 (01:26:43):
So, December twenty fourth, which is Christmas Eve twenty ten,
the daughter was with the husband at the rough home. Okay, Okay,
So Laurie drives over to the house in the middle
of the night or at some point dinner tonight and

(01:27:03):
she uses the gun self inflicted gunshot.

Speaker 11 (01:27:08):
I said, did she? I wonder if she tried to
make contact with the husband or the child well, or
she just drove up and parked and did it right.

Speaker 10 (01:27:18):
So her body was discovered in the car in her
car in the Rough family driveway, dead from the seth
and inflicted gunshot room wound. In the car were two
suicide notes, one eleven page note addressed to quote my
wonderful husband and another was addressed to her daughter that's

(01:27:42):
said to be opened on her eighteenth birthday. Of course,
the family opened both letters.

Speaker 11 (01:27:49):
I was about to say, I mean I would open it.

Speaker 10 (01:27:52):
And they said that the one to the daughter was
just quote ramblings from a clearly disturbed person, but no details.
But still no details at all about Laurie's past, So
she's still even in suicide. Noticed didn't let them know.

Speaker 11 (01:28:07):
Even in her last moments of just utter despair, she
still had to wherewithal like not to reveal anything like that.

Speaker 10 (01:28:16):
So after the funeral, after all that was said and
done and all that's happened, the Rough family drove to
the house to get some of the daughter's things. You
know that kind of stuff, kind of wrapping up that
empty home. I don't know if the dad Blake moves
back in or they sell it. They they didn't talk
about anything. Yeah, but they go back to the house

(01:28:36):
to get stuff. Right when they was going through some
of the stuff, they found a lock box in the
closet which was locked. They had no kid, They couldn't
find anybody getting it open or nothing. But I finally
cut into it with a screwdriver and things like that
broke broke the lock off. Inside the box was several

(01:29:00):
random scriblings, another suicide note looked like a rough draft
of it, that kind of stuff. But they found documentation
from her past, Yeah, in that lock box.

Speaker 11 (01:29:13):
Yeah, that tracks.

Speaker 10 (01:29:14):
Yeah. The papers in the lock box was the birth
certificate of Becky Sue Turner, the judge ruling granting a
name change from that name to Lori Erica Kennedy. So
from that, they let's see what else was a but

(01:29:38):
a bunch of other incan hearing stuff that they really
couldn't make here details from right, I say.

Speaker 11 (01:29:41):
I would say the identity that then it wasn't what
she was running from. That's what she did. Probably in
her mind, that was her way of surviving right and
like getting away from you know, her original family, and
that way they couldn't track her down and find her again.

Speaker 10 (01:29:57):
They found other scrib and notations from a North Hollywood
police four hundred and two months and Ben Perkins is
what it was wrote down on and it lead it
leads to them following the case to believe that Rough
was trying to avoid prison time due to the references

(01:30:17):
to police and possible jair term length just from Ben
Perkins who was also a Los Angeles attorney right at
the time, and just trying to tack all that together.
From what they could figure out from her notes is
that she was already building up another possible identity aga
that she maybe she didn't follow through on. But after

(01:30:42):
finding the Becky Sue Turner birth certificate, that's they found
the family verified that, yeah, that is the little girl
who had died in the fire, so they backed track
from there. That's how they found the request for that
birth certificate. They started tying everything together in investigation figuring out, okay,

(01:31:03):
that's exactly what was happening. That's how she was found
out who she really was. And then again just once
they found out that versatipicate they started backtracking and they
found out her name is born Kimberly Maria MacLean. Is
how they basically from that suicide in the lock box

(01:31:27):
and they backtracked it all the way back to the
beginning there.

Speaker 11 (01:31:30):
Let's say, has she not devolved in everything and done
all this, she probably could have gotten away with it
for her entire life.

Speaker 10 (01:31:38):
Yeah, Like I said, she was only forty two when
she committed the suicide.

Speaker 11 (01:31:45):
I mean, you know, she was absolutely set on not
surviving the attempt, and I think that's why she used
the gun because women don't typically go for that method.

Speaker 10 (01:31:53):
Well, part of the investigation is assumed that she may
have went there to get her daughter back, be a force, okay,
and because but ultimately maybe she changed her mind with
the suicide because there was suicide and upset.

Speaker 11 (01:32:13):
But say, I mean that to me is the clearest
sign of intent. But I wonder if she was trying
to get her daughter back, if she had originally planned
to take her daughter with her.

Speaker 10 (01:32:24):
Yeah, that could be. Again that's just speculation and all
that stuff.

Speaker 11 (01:32:27):
Because I mean that would track for like the when
we eventually get to the Women Who Kill series, which
it's at least going to consist of three parts that
I know of the three mainlands. That's more typically women
is they'll take out like their own family and then themselves,
right you know, I mean that's that's really really common.

(01:32:49):
And when they decide to go that far with it.

Speaker 10 (01:32:52):
Yeah, I also wonder, like I said, she, I think
they may have been some definitely some trauma in Bob
from the boys or from and all that from her childhood.
May and then how hard she had to go through
to have that baby too, Yeah, and then her and
then she's seeing her her family falling apart again, being

(01:33:15):
taken away from her kind of lit pushed her on
over the edge. I gats.

Speaker 11 (01:33:18):
Yeah, I can see that. I mean that that is
a very common trauma response, which I mean very sad
ending to that. But maybe had she been open about
her past and everything, she probably could have got a
lot of help.

Speaker 10 (01:33:34):
Yeah. Again, I don't know why the catalyst of making
her choose to work that hard to yea change her
identity theft parts.

Speaker 11 (01:33:46):
You know, but even this the identity theft like usually
when like what the crime part of that comes in
is because you're attempting to get benefits and everything, like
financial mostly and she didn't. She just basically created a
new life under this name. Yeah, exactly like she obviously

(01:34:06):
she couldn't get any kind of like life insurance policy
or anything on this child or anything from the family,
Like there were no benefits whatsoever to this. Just the
identity was what she wanted, just the name.

Speaker 10 (01:34:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (01:34:20):
So I imagine like even then, had she just come clean
about all this to get help, I think that, like
her sentencing could have been very, very lenient because of that.

Speaker 10 (01:34:30):
Yeah, it's it's it's wonder again. I'd love to see
the mindset, which will unfortunately we'll never know that's the
why what let her down that, But it seems like
maybe it was her reluctance to talk about her past
and all that. I'm sure there's some trauma there. But
I wonder if she felt caught too, like okay, trapped. Yeah,

(01:34:52):
I can't now because she knows what she did was illegal,
She can't.

Speaker 11 (01:34:57):
She felt like there was no other way out.

Speaker 10 (01:34:59):
Ye, she's so deep deep in now he can't get out.

Speaker 11 (01:35:02):
Of it, you know, which I mean I absolutely hate
that because there's a lot of suicides that ultimately boil
down to that they feel trapped in whatever aspect of
their lives and they feel like there's no other way
out of it other than death, right, which obviously for
anybody listening, if you're struggling with something like that, just
reach out, Like my dms are open on the time too, Like,

(01:35:23):
if you're ever struggling with something like that, like that is.

Speaker 10 (01:35:25):
Not the only way, how, Like, Yeah, there's a whole
hot line out there.

Speaker 11 (01:35:29):
Yeah, and I mean there are all kinds of resources.
No matter what jam you think you're in, there's always
going to be some other way out of it. So
just try to understand that that is not your only option.

Speaker 10 (01:35:47):
Well, like I said this one, since we like do
the psychology perspectives on it, you kind of have fight
or flight sponsors would kind of be the first andreas.

Speaker 11 (01:36:02):
I say, those would be the two abuse cases that
we talked about. Yeah, for sure, And I mean again,
I absolutely understand that I went through the same thing
with my first marriage and everything. And again if I
did not take flight, essentially I probably would ended up
on the news, like you could be talking about like
my case at this point.

Speaker 10 (01:36:22):
Yeah, that would be like and Audrea's and Lucy Ann
Johnson's case there because they both talked about like.

Speaker 11 (01:36:32):
A survival instinct.

Speaker 10 (01:36:34):
And then, uh, perhaps under Patricia's obviously is mental illness.

Speaker 11 (01:36:42):
Yeah, signs of schizophrenia are very evident with that case
from what you were reading.

Speaker 10 (01:36:48):
And we can see some of that now. And just
a homeless in whatever seedy you're from, you know, you'll
you'll run into that.

Speaker 11 (01:36:55):
And I mean, that is one of the bad things
I think that Reagan decided was. I mean, I understand
that there were like massive abusive abuses that were going
on in these mental facilities back then, but now like
we can we can reopen places like that and everything
with that hindsight, you know, yeah, hang.

Speaker 1 (01:37:30):
On, I'm getting them back.

Speaker 10 (01:37:31):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:37:31):
I don't know what happened.

Speaker 10 (01:37:33):
Point did it drop out? Uh?

Speaker 1 (01:37:37):
I don't know, because I was working on something else.

Speaker 10 (01:37:40):
Uh. Well, it was talking about how on our end
it only looked like a few seconds. So I was
gonna say it wasn't that.

Speaker 11 (01:37:47):
It was like I had mentioned, Reagan closing down the
mental facilities and just you know, we can vet employees
now much much better than before, so we can actually
like reopened mental facilities and mental hospitals and everything without
the massive abuses. That were happening in the past, and
like a lot of these people were released on the

(01:38:07):
street with nowhere to go.

Speaker 10 (01:38:09):
Yeah, that was pretty bad.

Speaker 11 (01:38:10):
Like they had no home, they had no support system.
They just they just like booted them out the door,
like good luck.

Speaker 10 (01:38:18):
And that's kind of where we was talking about. Patricia
Kopta is the one who had middle illness. Yeah, I'm
disappearing in ninety two. It wasn't much. I mean, that
wasn't long after Reagan shutting everything down, So.

Speaker 11 (01:38:30):
And it was still like mental health and everything was
still very stigmatized.

Speaker 10 (01:38:33):
Back then, for sure it was. And then in the
case of Kimberly Marie McLean, which is you know, we
just talked about her living under a new identity for decades,
like she did that, she stolen it completely created and
went to a lot of trouble to do. So that

(01:38:56):
kind of suggests a deep psychological need to disconnect from
the past.

Speaker 11 (01:39:02):
Yeah, and like I said, she obviously was running from something.
I wish we had more of her background before she
turned eighteen. I wish we had a lot more of
that because that would answer a lot of questions.

Speaker 10 (01:39:13):
Yeah, and then like her refusal to ever talk about
her past and all that. That could be just her.

Speaker 11 (01:39:22):
Covering the tracks and it could not wanting to have
a lot of stories out there that she had to
keep tracking.

Speaker 10 (01:39:28):
Yeah, but it could be that. But from her point
of view, it may be her just trying to block
it out, not trying to relive that.

Speaker 11 (01:39:35):
It could be an instinct, right.

Speaker 10 (01:39:39):
It could also be out of just being a fear
of being discovered, like you're talking about too.

Speaker 11 (01:39:43):
But again repressing if it is like a trauma based response,
like repressing that trauma and not ever dealing with it,
as we see does not lead to good outcomes, yeah.

Speaker 10 (01:39:56):
For real, for sure, But looking forward, looking from their
perspectives now, the earlier ones we talked about children being
left behind, which in the first case, in the first
one we talked about and even in Lucy Ann Johnson's
case a little bit, but walking away from your kids

(01:40:20):
leaving them behind, you know, but say.

Speaker 11 (01:40:22):
That's me as a mother, like that's just something that
I can't wrap my brain around.

Speaker 10 (01:40:27):
Both of them talking about abuse. Maybe they felt it
would be safe for the kids if they got out
of the way. Maybe the abuse was only pointing toward them,
not necessarily the kids. You know, maybe they thought by
them leaving would de escalate things.

Speaker 11 (01:40:45):
Maybe, I mean, either that or at least the second case,
you said that she had already tried once to leave with.

Speaker 10 (01:40:53):
The children, Yeah, and he would not allow it.

Speaker 11 (01:40:55):
Yeah, so she probably thought that the only way to
escape the situation she had to leave them behind.

Speaker 10 (01:41:01):
Yeah, they could be a threat to the children if
if she if she didn't, I mean, you know what
I'm saying. It's hard to tell. And again it's hard
to put ourselves in there.

Speaker 11 (01:41:13):
We're on the outside looking in here, so there's there's
a lot of information that we don't have, so we
can't make any kind of judgment call.

Speaker 10 (01:41:22):
And especially in the sixties, for the first two cases,
sixty one and sixty two, you know, women they had
very few legal protections or a social support system even then.

Speaker 11 (01:41:35):
Like back during those days, it was more like they
turn a blind eye, like neighbors and family members would
know about abuseful like if it's not my marriage.

Speaker 10 (01:41:43):
Like it's not my place, you didn't you didn't get
involved with it.

Speaker 11 (01:41:48):
It's not my house. What goes on in their house
is between them, you know.

Speaker 10 (01:41:52):
And divorce was very very taboo. Yeah, it's very stigmatized horrible.

Speaker 11 (01:41:57):
You know, like if you were a divorced woman, even
job opportunities to be very limited for you because nobody
would want to hire you, right like you nowhere near
as accepted as it is today.

Speaker 10 (01:42:08):
And like you said, people, the neighbors, even the police
to a point, looked at domestic violence is more of
a private matter, right, you know, they didn't really get
involved that much because that was wasn't their place. And
shelters we talked about and that, you know, they had
mental health facilities, but women shelters, places like that.

Speaker 11 (01:42:26):
The battered women's shelters that exist everywhere today, which I mean,
to me is amazing because yeah, we've obviously come so far,
but yeah, back then, it was just even if there
were I think there were, like you know, a handful
here and there and everything, but those women, if they
knew that you were staying at a place like that,
you were ostracized.

Speaker 10 (01:42:46):
Yeah, I mean, they was extremely extremely rare to have
a shelter for.

Speaker 11 (01:42:51):
Women, and I mean even just the way, and I
hate it so much because the women are the victims here,
but they're the ones treated like they did something wrong.

Speaker 10 (01:43:00):
M hm.

Speaker 11 (01:43:01):
So I mean I feel very very strongly about this,
and for a good reason.

Speaker 10 (01:43:06):
Yeah. But well, again it's hard to from twenty twenty
five odds to look at nineteen sixty.

Speaker 11 (01:43:15):
I say, we can't apply like our necessarily our morals
from today to the past because things were different, They
were seen differently.

Speaker 10 (01:43:24):
And even the legal system looked at it differently.

Speaker 11 (01:43:26):
But yeah, I mean it's like I say, and you know,
if we lived, you know, back during slave times or
even back during the civil rights movements, you know, we
can easily look back with hindsight and say, you know,
we would have been right there sitting at the lunch
counters with them and you know, protesting in the streets
with them, because we absolutely recognize these are people that
deserve legal protections. But you don't know how you would

(01:43:48):
actually react in that situation because the day and age
was different, people were raised differently. I mean, we can
say it in hindsight, but in practice, like, would you
actually think any differently.

Speaker 10 (01:44:01):
Right and at the time in their shoes? Yeah, what
would you do? You know?

Speaker 11 (01:44:06):
And again that's an easy question to answer in hindsight.
I mean, we all do the right thing in hindsight.

Speaker 10 (01:44:13):
Exactly, but you know, for to justify them disappearing and
walking away. You have to take all that in consideration
because even then, like you mentioned earlier, the twenty year
old is a kept woman, a stay at home wife.

Speaker 11 (01:44:31):
She had no and what if they left their children
behind because they figured that because of the way all
this was viewed and everything, that they would not be
able to even feed or keep a roof over their
children's heads.

Speaker 10 (01:44:42):
Yeah, that they had no economic or really much of
a legal way out if they did leave oh.

Speaker 11 (01:44:48):
Support system that they were fleeing into. So maybe they
left their children behind because in their minds, they were like,
at least they're going to be fed. At least they're
going to have clothes. At least they're going to have
a safe place to sleep, right, So, I mean, and
if you think about it that way, like even me
as a mother, it makes it way more understandable.

Speaker 10 (01:45:09):
Yeah, because at least they have a roof over their heads.
The husband. The husband hadn't been abusing them, it was
only her, you know, that kind of thing.

Speaker 11 (01:45:18):
Even if it was abusing them. Again, they still like
they still have more than she was able to provide.

Speaker 10 (01:45:25):
For them, because, like I said, walking out on their
own is a lot different than walking out with a.

Speaker 11 (01:45:33):
Little kid, which I mean I did, but I had
an excellent support system coming back home from Louisiana.

Speaker 10 (01:45:39):
Yeah, which you can't but I mean.

Speaker 11 (01:45:41):
These women probably did not have that then.

Speaker 10 (01:45:43):
But you can't compare the sixties to now to now.

Speaker 11 (01:45:47):
Yeah, I mean it was this was like what like
closer to twenty ten, twenty eleven when I came back home,
So I mean, very very different day and age. Right,
But even if they they had the support system, Like
even if these women could have taken the children and
gone to like her parents' house, Yeah, even the parents

(01:46:08):
probably back then would have tried to encourage her to
go back to her husband, because again, divorce was very taboo.
It was just something you didn't do, you didn't talk about,
and it brought shame on the family if you did it. Yep,
so they probably would have. It probably wouldn't have been
much in the way of the emotional support that these

(01:46:28):
women needed at that moment.

Speaker 10 (01:46:30):
Well, like I said, it's when you look at all
when you look at try to look at it from
all their perspectives, from Audrey's case to Lucy Anne's case,
a Patricia's situation, to Kimberly McLean's case. They're aw two
of them are similar, the other are kind of examples

(01:46:53):
from the streams from the two different extreams. And I
wanted to do that on purpose because everything's nuanced in these.

Speaker 11 (01:47:00):
I say, it's not just straight black and white in
those kind of cases.

Speaker 10 (01:47:05):
And y'all know, those of y'all that do know me
personally know that I am a very black and white person.

Speaker 11 (01:47:10):
I mean I am too.

Speaker 10 (01:47:12):
I don't like the gray, but in these situations that
the truth exactly it is there. There's some things.

Speaker 11 (01:47:22):
Not just a cut and dried, Oh this is wrong
or this is right.

Speaker 10 (01:47:25):
Now. There's some things in this life that are black
and white, period. And you'll never change me from that, right.
But in these situations, there is a gray that has
to be talked about, has to be accepted and put
out there. And I think to accept it.

Speaker 11 (01:47:41):
But I think that you should understand it.

Speaker 10 (01:47:43):
Yeah, that's acceptance in understanding that you have to accept
that it is a gray area.

Speaker 11 (01:47:49):
Say, I may not accept what you did, but I
understand why you do.

Speaker 10 (01:47:53):
That's what I'm saying. You have to accept that there
is a gray area.

Speaker 11 (01:47:56):
Yeah, Absolutely, that's what I'm talking about, and it helps
to actually have that mentality because especially now, like knock
on wood, like God forbid our daughter ever end up
in a situation that I was in, which I don't
think she will, because that old cliche is true that
like women marry a man like their fathers, and men
marry women like their mothers. Like at the time, like

(01:48:19):
everybody knows, like me and my dad did not have
a great relationship for a long time, and so I
married a man who was very similar to him and
how he was when I was younger. So I hope
that now, like with our daughter with the tiny tyrant
and everything, now that she's for a long long time now,
for what almost twelve years of her life now has

(01:48:42):
had a good father figure and role model and everything
for marriage, that she won't ever end up in a
situation like I was in. But having that ability to
understand nuance and everything means that God forbids she ever
finds herself in that kind of situation, she can always
come to us. We will do our level best to

(01:49:03):
understand what is going on and help her through. Yeah,
And that's what I mean. Every parent should be like that.
I think so in a perfect world. But I mean,
we don't live in a perfect world, so.

Speaker 10 (01:49:17):
Right, and they didn't either, these people we talked about tonight, So.

Speaker 11 (01:49:22):
They did the best they could with a horrible situation.
I think.

Speaker 10 (01:49:25):
So what I want to try to do is separate
the judgment from the compassion. You got to have both
on here, and just think about it less than think
less about it being a moral failure from these people,
and it'd be more of a collection of trauma that

(01:49:45):
they experienced, the times, the historical injustice if you will,
that women faced back in the sixties, especially even in
the nineties. That the other two the eighties and nineties,
so still there was a lot of stigma. Yeah, they
was going against them. And then again just that personal
fly or fight or flight, that personal survival that you

(01:50:08):
have to each person has, you know, because.

Speaker 11 (01:50:10):
Like I said, we could have done cases of the
battered women actually retaliating in violence and killing the abuser.

Speaker 10 (01:50:17):
But yeah, each thing, that set of circumstances adds a
layer to this and that that you kind of begin
to help us understand how someone might make those choices
that seem very extreme on the surface, you know.

Speaker 11 (01:50:37):
Yeah, I mean, while I can't I can't fathom any
reason that would make me leave my child behind in
an abusive situation. I personally can't fathom it. I also
understand that not every situation was like mine. Every single
situation is different. So that's why it can't be black
and white, because not every situation is either black or white.

Speaker 10 (01:50:58):
Yeah, or other shows, it's pretty simp it's pretty easy
to see the victim or the victim versus the uh,
the perpetrator, the back out, the villain versus a victim,
I guess. But and here it's easy to pass judgment
like how dare she do that to her kids? She?
How could this person go to that still these identities

(01:51:20):
and go to that much? But I mean, we don't
We don't know. We can't put ourselves in their shoes
really without experiencing what they really experienced.

Speaker 11 (01:51:29):
Yeah, especially that last one. Like I said, I wish
we had more information about her childhood up until she
was about eighteen, because I think that would answer a
lot of my questions about her.

Speaker 10 (01:51:38):
Yeah, and it's it makes me wonder obviously, go into
the darkest parts of it. That's why she was so
eager to escape that. Yeah, but we don't know and
again I don't want I don't want to pass no doubt.
That's why I didn't bring out the name of the
stepfather and all that kind of stuff. Was I don't
want to cast any.

Speaker 11 (01:52:00):
Aspersions on him. And we don't know the entire situation exactly.

Speaker 10 (01:52:05):
We can all make our educated guesses, but again that's
all they are.

Speaker 11 (01:52:10):
I said this one. It sounds kind of funny to
say it, but because it was a Mother's Day episode,
like I wanted to keep it a little lighter. But
I mean, we still had the one situation end up
in a suicide, which is tragic. But I just I
really could not bring myself to do like the mothers
who kill episode for Mother's Day because that's that's too

(01:52:31):
dark even.

Speaker 10 (01:52:31):
For me exactly. Yeah, but like I said, we can't
go one show without at least one death, So there
you go. But again, like I said, we don't want
to pass judgment on all these all these women, they
went through some stuff to put them where they.

Speaker 8 (01:52:48):
To make them make the decisions and choices that.

Speaker 10 (01:52:50):
They made, and even if it comes down to self preservation,
you know what, that's honorable too. In a way, I.

Speaker 11 (01:52:56):
Did find the upside in you know, the most recent
case of the first woman and everything being found alive
and she's apparently well and healthy. Yes, so I mean
to me that, I mean no matter the fact that
like she left her children, she had a reason for
doing it, even if it's a reason I can't personally understand.
I don't know why she chose to do that. I
have no idea. But so many times these situations end

(01:53:21):
up with a person being found, but it's another tragic situation,
like they're not found alive.

Speaker 10 (01:53:26):
Now this is the one you're talking about, Audreya Backenberg, Right, yeah,
right again, if we get some more information, we'll bring
it back out one day. But she's alive and well,
apparently location location unknown. For her request, we shall be

(01:53:47):
that should be honored.

Speaker 11 (01:53:48):
That's absolutely reasonable.

Speaker 10 (01:53:50):
I would love I love to see the husband and
the kids point of view. Maybe that'll come later, and
if it does, we'll mention it there.

Speaker 11 (01:53:58):
That she can maybe be reunited with those children and
you know, maybe they find some forgiveness there if they
haven't already. That's my hope. That's my prayer for this woman. Yeah,
but I mean again, it just it needs to be noted,
how amazing it is that after sixty two years a
missing person case turns up that this person is alive

(01:54:18):
and well right and like they're not in a bad
situation that we know of. So I mean, to me,
that's worth noting, and it is phenomenal for true crime.

Speaker 10 (01:54:29):
Yeah, we'll we'll probably do at some point later on
some missing not missing personally, I'm sorry, some cold cases
and some cases like this they get cold case that they.

Speaker 11 (01:54:40):
Get solved, they get there so many years.

Speaker 10 (01:54:42):
Which I think is pretty cool. We always kind of
try to mix in current events with our other stuff
that we cover.

Speaker 11 (01:54:53):
There are other cases, and most of the cases, like
especially with the serial killers, most everybody like y'all just
hear us like discuss it because most all of y'all
know most of the details about those because they're so
highly publicized. But stuff like this doesn't get quite the
press coverage.

Speaker 10 (01:55:10):
Basically, yeah, you get like and again we just saw
that as you get a little blip about it, and
then this day and age eight seconds later or something
new comes on the news and it takes its place.
So it's hard to keep up with it. But I'll
keep an eye on it and see if I see
anything else.

Speaker 11 (01:55:26):
I say, well, we'll make sure if there are any
updates to her story that we can give.

Speaker 8 (01:55:31):
Them to y'all.

Speaker 10 (01:55:32):
Well, this, like I said, this is front Ports for
Insits and you can find us at fp Underscore for
Insits on x and if you would, you can go there,
leave a message, leave a comment on some upcoming stories
that's y'all would like to see us covered. Yeah.

Speaker 11 (01:55:52):
Absolutely, I'm probably gonna do a Happy Mother's Day post
again from that account, So y'all can just leave comments
under that would like to see next, or if you
have a personal case that you might even want to like,
come and be a guest on and talk about Yeah,
because we have a lot of people who have these
odd connections I guess to real life cases, and it's

(01:56:15):
amazing to actually get that perspective from y'all.

Speaker 10 (01:56:19):
Yeah, it is pretty cool when we have somebody who
has a actually recognizes or has a personal connection with
someone or something that's going on.

Speaker 11 (01:56:33):
I say, we had my friend Amy on once because
her husband actually used to ride the bus with Jeffrey
Dahmer to work, which I mean just blows my mind.

Speaker 10 (01:56:41):
Yep, And y'all may have some insights that we're missing
or that way that you don't agree with us, you're
all you can always disagree too. But if you've got
a story you want us to cover a particular serial killer,
mass murder, whatever it is, please old FP underscore forensics

(01:57:02):
and leave a comment. We'll gladly working into rotation. Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:57:05):
Absolutely, I love research and stuff like this, But I.

Speaker 10 (01:57:08):
Am bump stock Ken on its. That's basically the only
place I am.

Speaker 11 (01:57:13):
If you want to, yeah, stuck Barbie. That's how it's
always easy to remember us. It's bumpstock Barbie and then
bumpstock Ken. No special characters or anything in that, just
all one word. I'm also a writer for twitchy and
I've got my author link in my bio there on
X I'm trying to think, like, all right, we're with

(01:57:35):
KLR and radio and everything. This is so far our
only show that we do so and that's I think
now weekly from seven to nine Central.

Speaker 10 (01:57:44):
Time, KLRI and Radio on its dot com, on the
inner webs. There is a plethora of other shows.

Speaker 11 (01:57:53):
There are so many, like there's something for everybody.

Speaker 10 (01:57:55):
Absolute and we got a great commander in chief here
with us, Rick Rowdy.

Speaker 1 (01:58:04):
Rick.

Speaker 10 (01:58:05):
He's mentioned a few times here, and I think that.
If you want to listen to us live or even
follow us on from replace, you can check out the
Spreaker app, which is a free app that's the one
I use. It's a free, completely free download. It's easy
to set up and understand. I can do it, and

(01:58:25):
it's got a good playback. It's it's a good app.
But you can also find us on other Spotify us
wherever else you get your any.

Speaker 11 (01:58:33):
Podcasts that hosts a podcast. But I actually think Rick,
don't we have just juxtaposition now coming up just immediately.

Speaker 10 (01:58:40):
Afterwards, Yes, ma'am.

Speaker 11 (01:58:43):
All right, y'all make sure like stay logged in and everything,
because Rick and Ordy and everything are always a blast
to hang out with.

Speaker 10 (01:58:51):
Yeah, yeah, they sound professional compared to us.

Speaker 1 (01:58:56):
Y'all are selling yourself shorts short. Again, by the way,
say hi to the over here other people hanging out
with you right now.

Speaker 10 (01:59:01):
Oh wow, who else we got? Oh she missed that, Rick,
We want to tell her again.

Speaker 1 (01:59:08):
Yeah, say hi to the over eight hundred and eight
hundred people that are hanging out with you right now.

Speaker 10 (01:59:12):
Oh wow, that's a big number for us. Yes, all
of you please stay and hang out listen to Rick
and already say.

Speaker 11 (01:59:19):
For now, we stream live on my ex page and
my Facebook page, but that's the only place I stream
live from. But Kalare and their page carries it. I
think Rick does it live on his page.

Speaker 10 (01:59:30):
Two yep, So just hang out with them. I'm not
sure what they got in sword or not, but I'm
sure it's gonna be a blast. They always have a
good shub.

Speaker 1 (01:59:37):
We're doing a deep dive on the patent assassination and
a few others.

Speaker 11 (01:59:42):
Nice.

Speaker 10 (01:59:43):
All right, well, mister Rick, we're gonna pass on off
to you guys, and we'll.

Speaker 11 (01:59:47):
Be happy Mother's Day from front porch Forensics.

Speaker 1 (01:59:50):
Absolutely remember Breakfast in bed tomorrow or some of them.

Speaker 10 (01:59:57):
Oh yeah, and here's the one more thing. And till
next time, don't do anything to make you be a
subject of our next show.

Speaker 1 (02:00:06):
Or to wind up on a shopping list if you
know you're on the grocery list that I

Speaker 9 (02:00:12):
Like the girl talk guys may maybe just from listen
to did you try