FPF The One About Cults pt 5 The Jonestown Massacre

Episode Transcript

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home of podcasts Plethora or a plethora of podcast To
meet every one of your tastes and your desires is
to check us out. Tonight we're looking at a We're
going to focus on a very dynamic and charismatic individual.
He was born in the thirties and in the forties,

(05:45):
he began even as a teenager to become one of
the leading guys in the civil rights movement for African
Americans in today. He was at and impoverished people. He
was extremely anti segregation. Now he was religious guy who

(06:05):
winds up being a reverend and opened one of the
biggest churches in Indianapolis that was racially diverse. It caused
a lot of problems in that church to the point
that but he believed in the civil rights movement to
the point that he actually left the Methodist church and
started up his own denomination so he could have a

(06:29):
racial profile of diversity in his church because he believed
in it so much. That was in Indiana. He eventually
followed his movement all the way to California where it
continued to grow, and he even took it internationally and again,
this is in the nineteen forties, throughout the seventies, a
civil rights hero and all accounts if you look at

(06:50):
what he was doing for him. He was also a
democratic democratic socialist, very progressive before the progressive movement.

Speaker 6 (07:01):
Become trendy talked about how he was very very communist
in his beliefs, very Marxist.

Speaker 5 (07:07):
Yes, eventually he does. He is Marxist and communists and
all that stuff. Even though a lot of people may
frown on that, these other things that he was doing
or absolutely be praised. I think he is a I
think he is an absolute hero to the left and
to the democratic socialists of the day. This guy should
be loved. And of course we're talking about Reverend Jim Jones.

(07:30):
Now a lot of people recognize that name and realize that, hey,
wait a minute, he sucks, And.

Speaker 6 (07:39):
Yeah, that would absolutely be true. This is the one
about calls. This is part five. Last week we did
Heaven's Gate, wasn't it. Next week we're gonna do Manson.
But tonight we're going to talk about the People's Temple,
which everybody commonly knows as Jonestown. But we're going to

(08:01):
actually take this back to nineteen thirty one. James Warren
Jones was born on May thirteenth of nineteen thirty one
in Crete, Indiana, to James Thurman and Lynetta Putnam in
the depths of the Great Depression. So he grew up
in a very small, poor and racially divided town called
Lynn until he was sixteen to Lynn, Indiana. That's where

(08:25):
he was actually raised. Born in Crete, Indiana, though so
again very very they were actually known as like the
poorest family in town. His family farm was ultimately lost
in the Depression due to his father being disabled from
mustard gas injuries sustained in World War One, and the

(08:49):
dad was actually collecting government assistants and was an alcoholic,
like hardcore alcoholic.

Speaker 5 (08:56):
Yeah. Basically, any assistance he's getting from the government, he
was drinking it away and then some even while his
wife was bringing in he was drinking it out too.

Speaker 6 (09:07):
Yeah. So Jim growing up in poverty actually later shapes
the beliefs that he espouses to his own followers. According
to accounts from friends and family, and you have to
kind of take this with a grain of salt because
these are just like second hand accounts. Jim always felt
shame and pain from being one of the poorest families

(09:32):
in the community. His childhood was marked by neglect, loneliness, shame,
all these kind of things which informative years is very
very important. His parents, particularly his father, really didn't spend
time with him. So as an adult, he recounts an

(09:55):
incident between himself and his father when he was sixteen.
Jim brought home actually the only black child that was
in their town back to his house and his father.
They had some words and everything said that that friend
was not welcome in their home, and Jim actually says
that this caused a major rift between himself and his father.

Speaker 5 (10:18):
Ye see what I mean. He was a silver rights pioneer.

Speaker 6 (10:24):
He obviously definitely you can't call Jim Jones a racist. Well,
you really can't do that because it's just not true.

Speaker 5 (10:33):
I think that we'll see later on. I think that
was probably I don't know that his heart was in
the right place with being racism or is just another
way to gain attention and adoration and he winds up
manipulating it later on, I think too. So yeah, a
racist still I don't think is a No, he was.

Speaker 6 (10:52):
Not a racist, but I think he saw an opportunity
to exploit certain people because of their race, because of poverty.
He used all of.

Speaker 5 (11:05):
These things in the way that he hated them. But
I think it was also he was just okay racing
and right word, he was just a horrible human being
because he saw the opportunity that.

Speaker 6 (11:19):
He was an equal opportunity. Yes exactly, like, yeah, race
didn't factor into anything that he believed at all. So
we've I mentioned his father, you know, alcoholic experienced mustard
gas injuries and you know all the subsequent health issues

(11:42):
that come along with that from World War One. That
was his father. His father's pretty much kind of the
absentee father, like he's there in the home but really
has nothing to do with Jim. And Jim is an
only child, so there are no other siblings in this scenario.
His mother is a bread winner, she's the head of
the household. She was actually an educated woman. She worked

(12:04):
at various factories from early morning two late nights, and
she still had to come home and care for Jim
and the home. Like the father just was not active
in the home life really at all. He was there,
but he wasn't there.

Speaker 5 (12:19):
That wasn't that that wasn't I mean, that's pretty common.
It's basically that day and age for people coming back
from the war. Those parents, those parents, we saw that
with some of the other serial killers as their parents.
They were just that generation was very I guess the
absent generation comes up as safe.

Speaker 6 (12:37):
They were very gender stereotypical, if you want to use
that term.

Speaker 5 (12:42):
They were there in body that was really about it.

Speaker 6 (12:44):
I's saying it was the woman's shob to care for
the home, to care for the children, to do all
of that. So yes, in that sense, I absolutely agree
that gender stereotypes played a massive role back then in
that day. So I mean that's you know, one hundred percent.
But by all accounts, his mother was also cold and
harsh towards him, and one neighbor, her name was Myrtle Kennedy,

(13:10):
she said that she had actually seen Jim as a
toddler outside the home, unattended and covered in his own poop.

Speaker 5 (13:17):
Yeah. I think this is also the woman who takes
an interest in him and winds up taking him and
introduce him to the church at the first time. Yeah,
And I think he was talking about his dad being
absent and the mother being absent because she had to
work so much. I think her coldness also come from

(13:39):
this resentment she felt probably in a lot.

Speaker 6 (13:41):
Of way, maybe because she had no help with the children,
the child rearing, with the home life, anything like that.

Speaker 5 (13:48):
So yeah, so.

Speaker 6 (13:51):
And again she was an educated woman, so.

Speaker 5 (13:53):
Right, and like you said, that probably played into a
lot of her demeanor and the way she treated her
houselely duties, I guess. But either way, this woman Kennedy
takes an interest in Jones or gem and takes into church,
introducing in the church. And now you've got this woman

(14:16):
who's clean taking into a place that's clean.

Speaker 6 (14:18):
She's almost taken over the role of mother in his life.

Speaker 5 (14:21):
Exactly where he's getting food. And you've got the pastor
to church, who is this loud, gregarious man. So he's
getting the things he's missing a home in this church.

Speaker 6 (14:30):
Now, yes, from a neighbor and from the pastor. These
are like his mother and father. Figures that he's kind
of substituted.

Speaker 5 (14:37):
For his own he's starting. And now again it's a
twisted way of Steve viewing things, but he's this is
where he's seeing it.

Speaker 6 (14:43):
Yeah, but again you got to keep in mind he's
very young at the time this is happening. So these
are very very formative years for a child.

Speaker 5 (14:51):
Well, you mentioned formative for him, it completely it takes
his identity.

Speaker 6 (14:58):
Yeah, it warps his entire way of coping with the world,
of dealing with other people. Yeah, Like that's the reason
we're going so far back into his childhood here, because like, okay,
even another friend that he had, Donald Foreman, said that
when he went to dinner at the Jones house, they

(15:18):
didn't eat together or anything like this family was just
not connected to one another, which for young children growing
up and everything, that is absolutely vital. You have to
have that. You have to be able to have this
kind of cohesive, healthy family unit and everything to be
able to form your relationships with other people, how to

(15:43):
be in the world, you know, as a person, right,
you absolutely need that. So and there are also these
credible allegations of abuse in his life, and now we've
got this image of a very dysfunctional upbringing for him,
where there's neglect, there's a lack of positive role models,
severe poverty, and even as he grows up, he's now

(16:06):
labeled as a weirdo in school.

Speaker 5 (16:08):
Well, one of the reasons he was labeled a weirdo
also is because, like I was saying about the church,
he didn't play with other kids, ball or sports or
anything like that. Had no interest. He actually wore his
best clothes. He had his Sunday clothes every day, and
he carried a Bible around with him. The teachers and

(16:30):
the townsfolk have reported that any time you saw him,
he carried his little Bible with him. And he's the
only game he would play was a congregation. He would
be the preacher and all the other kids were supposed
to bes congregation, he would preach to him. That's he
had wrapped up his whole childhood identity into that.

Speaker 6 (16:49):
And it's because that was what was presented to him
very early on, like his dad. I mean, has he
never been introduced to this church from the neighbor and
everything from his dad, he would have just basically been
an alcoholic bum otherwise maybe, But like all of these things,
like we did a whole nature versus nurture argument, and

(17:13):
I think that a combination of both. But I think
there's a lot of nurture happening here with Jim Jones.
I think that there is a combination of his nature
just because of what he was naturally inclined to do,
which was more academic things than playing with the other
children or you know, doing what we stereotypically think are

(17:35):
childhood things like he kind of gravitated more towards adults
and things like that. And again because his parents were
just kind of disconnected from him completely, like they kept
him alive, which was their bare minimum.

Speaker 5 (17:52):
Well, I think the town has done a lot of
that too, because that whole little town of Lynn, Indiana
really raised him throughout his childhood like that.

Speaker 6 (18:02):
So yeah, like I said, they were the poorest family
in the town, which is saying something for a town
that was already in deep poverty. But narcissism actually became
his defense mechanism. That was his way of surviving. He
had to focus on himself and put himself at the
center of his world because nobody else was doing it.

Speaker 5 (18:24):
Yeah, that's probably the root of what built it all up.
But also as he was aging, he realized this town
taking care of him and their kindness that he was
able to manipulate that as well.

Speaker 6 (18:39):
He was able to get things that he wanted from
them because they felt that for that and he could
exploit that.

Speaker 5 (18:45):
And even then when these stores and these merchants that
would give him handouts, he was taking the handout in
one hand and actually stealing from him with the other.
And these people, these town folk, by everything I've seen,
see to be pretty nice people. And because they would
know that he stole or they would tell his mother,

(19:05):
and the mother would go back and pay for it later,
even though she really couldn't afford for this kind of stuff.

Speaker 6 (19:11):
So that probably I don't have any evidence for this,
but since there was allegations of abuse before that, I
would assume that, like the mother and the father, because
they couldn't afford to deal with his theft and everything
and having to pay for these things, his home life
was probably not good. I mean, just to put it

(19:32):
very lightly, Oh yeah, I mean the punishment quote unquote
that he probably experienced because of those thefts and everything
and her having to spend that hard earned money to
cover for it, and probably led to just more abuse. Right,
So this is like a vicious cycle that he's not
really I don't think even intellectually aware of, because he's

(19:54):
still a child at this point. But I mean, all
throughout the series, this series on cults, I've talked about
the psychological aspects of this and basically all of the
studies and biographical information about specific cult leaders. We do

(20:15):
see this permeation of two very very specific personality disorders,
and that's a combination of narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial
personality disorder. And it is actually notable in regard to
Jim Jones when it comes to his personal relationships with

(20:38):
other people when he was a child, Like Daniel was saying,
how he dealt with these store owners. The store owners were,
you know, giving him what he needed and everything, but
it still wasn't enough for him, so he was stealing
at the same time. So he's exploiting their good grace,
like he is manipulating this, he's using it for his

(20:59):
own game. He actually Jim Jones has been extensively studied
by a psychologists and psychoanalysts for decades since all of
this went down, and most all of them, I mean,
there's obviously some disagreement among some of them, but for
the most part, the majority agree that the main factors

(21:22):
that were observed in him are aggression, exploitation, and lack
of empathy. So the aggression as a symptom is prevalent
in both disorders, both narcissistic personality disorder and anti social
personality aggression is a factor in both of those that

(21:43):
was observed by just his general interaction styles, but specifically
regarding the sense of criticism or defeat. That anybody when
he was growing up who would criticize him and everything,
he acted very aggressively towards them. If he failed in anything,
or perceived that he failed in anything, he acted very aggressively.

Speaker 5 (22:08):
That.

Speaker 6 (22:08):
Yeah, with people, we know, Yeah, I mean these are
these are very common traits like in people in general,
but for these personality disorders to be diagnosed officially, you
have to have like quite a few of them at
the same time. Then there's the exploitation, which it can

(22:28):
be both conscious and subconscious, which we see in him
taking advantage of people the social situation of any given moment.
He knew how to exploit it, either consciously he knew
what to do, or it was just an instinct built
into him at this point. H Then there's the feelings
of self importance, which is the grandiosity that we see

(22:51):
in narcissistic personality disorder that combined with the sense of entitlement.
All of those symptoms aren't but there's a lot of
psychologists that say that he didn't actually have a narcissistic
personality disorder, and this one, to me is worse. They
did diagnose him with antisocial personality disorder, which is the

(23:15):
formally like psychopathy and sociopathy are outdated terms and everything,
but they're most typically associated with this specific personality disorder
because that one's characterized by conscious manipulation of one's social
environment to create situations that benefit themselves. And we see

(23:37):
this throughout Jim Jones' life. He learned how to do
this at a very early age.

Speaker 5 (23:44):
Which one was he identified as he was.

Speaker 6 (23:49):
Looking back, like hindsight, was diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder.

Speaker 5 (23:53):
Anti social personality disorder took the place of why.

Speaker 6 (24:01):
The outdated terms were psychopathy or sociopathy.

Speaker 5 (24:04):
So sociopaths or psychopath.

Speaker 6 (24:06):
Yeah, and a lot of overlaps.

Speaker 5 (24:09):
We don't say that anymore.

Speaker 6 (24:10):
We say, well you can, but that's typically this personality
disorder that is exhibited by those traits.

Speaker 5 (24:17):
But psychopath and sociopath are do have differences, right.

Speaker 6 (24:21):
They have slight differences, but it's really kind of negligible.

Speaker 5 (24:24):
Is that why they just broke them into one.

Speaker 6 (24:27):
It's that one big personality disorder there, antisocial personality disorder.

Speaker 5 (24:32):
So there just wasn't enough difference. See I always thought
sociopath and psychopath were distinctly different.

Speaker 6 (24:40):
Really not really. I mean so that they do have
some differences, but overall it's pretty much the same thing.

Speaker 5 (24:47):
It was close enough that they could just put one
put it under one umbrella, basically.

Speaker 6 (24:51):
Because I mean, the traits and everything you get. Your
lack of empathy is characteristic of this, which is again
a result of conscious choice to either ignore the feelings
and needs of others or to use the knowledge of
their feelings and needs for your own personal gain. So like,
either you're consciously using it, but you also have to

(25:15):
be able to understand it, Like this person's feeling this,
how can I use that? How can I twist this
into something that benefits me? Okay, that's essentially what psychopaths
and sociopaths have all done throughout history. I mean, that's
the one unifying thing between the two of them.

Speaker 5 (25:36):
Well, I like psychopath and social path much better.

Speaker 6 (25:40):
But say, it's it's very very common, Like people can
connect to those terms I think better than the clinical
term of this personality disorder.

Speaker 5 (25:49):
So is it kind of like changing UFO to AFP
or whatever it is?

Speaker 6 (25:55):
Yeah, I mean really the same thing.

Speaker 5 (25:57):
No real reason to just updating it to update.

Speaker 6 (26:00):
Well, I think that they needed to have a way
to diagnose these traits in people like to have something
that they can hone in on and treat because, yes,
antisocial personality disorder, it can be managed and it does
not mean that every single person who has it is
going to be a violent person. Yeah, we have CEOs,

(26:23):
we have politicians, we have doctors, we have lawyers, we
have people in these positions of authority that naturally are
good at it because they have antisocial personality disorder because
they lack that sense of empathy.

Speaker 5 (26:37):
Mainly Okay, yeah, Rich it's uap UFO and they changed
with UAP So basically all these politicians and doctors and
businessmen all it. So they didn't like being grouped roped
into being a sociopath. So to make it kinder, they said,
we're going to make it an AFED.

Speaker 6 (27:01):
Antisocial personality disorder.

Speaker 7 (27:04):
Up.

Speaker 6 (27:05):
No, it's just that they tend to gravitate towards these
positions because it's what they're good at. I mean, what
we do see this with like politicians especially, that's something
everybody I think can relate to we can see this
in politicians. They don't actually care about us. They want

(27:27):
the power, They want to be able.

Speaker 7 (27:28):
To manipulate us into voting for them, so they naturally
gravitate towards these professions that put them in that position.

Speaker 6 (27:40):
So now most people that would quote unquote be psychopaths
or sociopaths does not mean they're going to be violent.
In fact, it's very rare that they actually do turn violent.
So it is more notable when we see the people
who do turn violent. That's the whole fascination and true
crime and everything, because it's like, Okay, all of these

(28:01):
many many people perfectly normal people, well not perfectly normal,
but they're they're non violent and everything. They don't hurt
other people. So what made this one different?

Speaker 5 (28:13):
Got you? So it's like instead they at some point
they go they stopped before they turn violent, like for
and like I said, most of them aren't there. Most
of them are like you said, politicians. Uh, they could
be a preacher. In this case, they could open a
bar in Philadelphia with his family. They could do you
know a bunch of things like.

Speaker 6 (28:34):
That one in there.

Speaker 5 (28:37):
Dennis.

Speaker 6 (28:39):
Dennis is absolutely a psychopathy, Yes he is.

Speaker 5 (28:42):
But I'm sorry. I'm sorry I got caught up in
in the name of.

Speaker 6 (28:46):
The anti social personalities and.

Speaker 5 (28:48):
It just caught me and why they change it. I'm
sorry that that was a dan gress there. I got
off into the weeds.

Speaker 6 (28:56):
So yeah, for the most part, people who are typically
psychopaths of sociopaths with antisocial personality disorder not typically violent.
So now we're kind of looking into and he actually
really wasn't too very violent. I mean, there were allegations

(29:18):
of physical abuse and everything, but he's one that I
don't think we actually see a whole lot of even
sexual abuse with this one because he gained his sense
of power in other ways. He actually he founded the
People's Temple, which is what the actual cult is called.

(29:39):
He founded it as an independent congregation in Indianapolis in
the fifties. He preached that quote, a just society could
overcome the evils of racism and poverty. So and despite
even being a white man we mentioned this earlier, like
his congregation was predominantly black people. Oh yeah, like he

(30:02):
was able to reach them on a fundamental level because
they're either in Indianapolis, but especially when he went to
California in San Francisco and Los Angeles and everything. It
was predominantly minorities that were in poverty. So he his
message attracted them. That was that was a huge thing.

(30:25):
And I've mentioned this before. That's one of the dynamics
between a cult leader and a cult follower. The leader
is offering them a solution to something that they feel
is a problem.

Speaker 5 (30:36):
Yeah, and here, like you said, the numbers range from
seventy percent to ninety percent black in the People's Temple
which eventually becomes Jonestown. Well still people Temple church. That
area is called Johnstown anyway, Jonestown. But yeah, it was
like between seventy ninety percent. What is the numbers I've

(30:57):
been seeing? But again, the time for aimed the situation
in the country, the civil rights movement. He was preaching
exactly who was preaching exactly what they wanted to hear. Yeah,
and that's what cult.

Speaker 6 (31:10):
Leaders do, and he was offering them the solution, like, look,
follow me, because I have an answer to this. I
have an answer. I have a solution to all these
racial tensions. I have a solution of poverty. I can
fix this for you.

Speaker 5 (31:23):
Yeah, and he got I don't want to jump ahead,
but we're in California at this point.

Speaker 6 (31:29):
Nineteen sixties. You know, he affiliated the People's Temple with
a Christian church, which was the Disciples of Christ, which
I think actually was a Methodist denomination at the time.
I'm not entirely sure.

Speaker 5 (31:41):
So I've read Methodists, but that could you know, they
it could be argued differently in a different one, but
what I read said Methodists.

Speaker 6 (31:50):
In nineteen sixty four, then he was officially ordained as
a minister, as a as a pastor, you know, whatever
you want to call him. So in sixty five, that's
when he moves his congregation to Yukaya, California. I think
that's how you pronounced that. I'm not sure, but he
and his members became involved in state politics there. Oh yeah, so,

(32:14):
I mean these were branches of the Temple that were
opening in San Francisco and Louisiana.

Speaker 5 (32:19):
Well well, no, Los Angeles. Oh yeah, you wrote down LA.
It's Lower Alabama, though it's Los Angeles. Uh yeah. When
they was out in California. Part of the fundraising that
he done is each new member was tasked with collections

(32:39):
and they would actually go door to door in their
neighborhoods and asked for well, basically they would, they would
pre they would push there.

Speaker 6 (32:48):
It was almost like Jehovah's Witnesses. If Jehoah's Witnesses were
asking for money every time they came to your door.

Speaker 5 (32:53):
Yeah, it's almost like Jehovah's witness if Jehovah's witness was
a cult. Oh wake, no, we're not.

Speaker 6 (32:59):
The alien is there. But Jova's witnesses don't ask for
money when they come.

Speaker 5 (33:03):
To your door, right, but these people did.

Speaker 6 (33:05):
They would give you their message and everything, and then
they would ask for donations.

Speaker 5 (33:09):
Yeah, they would ask for donations. And he remember these
were there hundreds of members canvass in these neighborhoods. So
they was bringing in pretty good donations. And I was
also reaching a lot of new people who was again
but I.

Speaker 6 (33:23):
Say, they'd given the information about their quote unquote church
and you know, if they were interested, they could come
and you know, hear Pastor Jones speak again.

Speaker 5 (33:31):
The civil rights move it was heavy. This was they
was bringing in a lot of interest in a lot
of new members by doing this, to the point that
they were well over three thousand members in California by
this point.

Speaker 7 (33:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (33:44):
And because yeah, he built his ministry with a program
of helping the young, the elderly, the destitute, the impoverished,
and he was He actually, through this became a darling
of the San Francisco Liberal establishment. US representatives Philip and
John Burton were not really members, but they became very

(34:08):
close to them. Assembly Man Willy Brown and yes it's
that Willy Brown and Mayor George Moscone. They were high
prominent people in the San Francisco political spear here and
Jones got himself ingrained with them, like entrenched with them.

(34:29):
Basically Timothy Stolen, who was actually a lawyer for the
people simple for seven years a direct quote. There wasn't
anything magical about Jim's power. It was raw politics. He
was able to deliver what politicians want, which is power,
and how do you get power by votes? And how

(34:50):
do you get votes with people? Jim Jones could produce
three thousand people at a single political event, So I
mean he actually the political arena in San Francisco in
about September of nineteen seventy when he started a fund
to help the families of slain police officers. But Jones

(35:10):
was inevitably accused of using the funds to Curry favor
obviously with politicians or other people. There was another reverend,
Cecil Williams, who was a friend of Jones at the
time that he said this. They sat around talking about
ways to get things done. They had all kinds of

(35:31):
schemes that they had worked out. And this man, this
reverence said this about him while he is actually friends
with Jim Jones at the time that he experienced this,
he saw them, he heard them this. I mean he
was talking to politicians about ways to get things done.

Speaker 5 (35:49):
Yeah, And like I said, he was the thing about
Jim Jones, even back in his childhood. Yes, he had
the rough one and it was very sketch here and there.
But unlike a lot of the other cult leaders we've seen,
Jim Jones, well, first off, he was extremely intelligent even

(36:10):
as a child. Authors school, he was very very smart.
Even through college he scored high He was very Yes,
he was very good student, very bright, intelligent young man.
But the thing that also I noticed that set Jim
apart was that he was successful and every basically everything
he tried to do. Unlike a lot of other cult
leaders who have basically their last they have felt to

(36:33):
the point that their last ditch effort is to start
this call, and it just happens to work out for him.
Jim was successful and never endeavor. He had politics. He
built up a great name for himself in the civil
rights movement and with the progressiveness, with the progressive left
of the day. He was a stout follower and open

(36:56):
proponent for socialism and even communism.

Speaker 6 (36:59):
He said, and we'll get to this later. You'll hear
him in his own voice say it's because they're communists. Yeah,
he was a Marxist. He was a communist. He absolutely
believed in, you know, the that whole ideal. Basically, that
was part of how he was going to correct racial

(37:20):
injustice and poverty was through Marxism through communism exactly.

Speaker 5 (37:26):
And that's something he picked up in college and that's
where he really started buying into that and the day.
But I'm like I said, he was very successful. I mean,
you see him working his ranks through the reverend, being
a reverend, getting the as a child, he pretended to
be a preacher. Well it becomes a preacher. He gets

(37:48):
a ton of followers because he wanted them, so he
got them. He's building this group.

Speaker 6 (37:52):
I even kind of want to touch on him pretending
and play acting, you know, preacher and congregation when he
was a child. This was his first experience with seeing somebody,
Oh my gosh, all these people are listening to this man,
and that's what he wanted. Like, I mean, he, I guess,
felt pretty invisible through most of his childhood and this

(38:15):
is his first experience with everybody's paying attention to this person.
They're hanging on every word this person says.

Speaker 5 (38:22):
And that's where I was headed with all this. I
was going to walk it through from the time he
pretended to be a kid and eventually got exactly what
he wanted. There his followers that loved him and adored him.
He moved that power into political realm where he became
successful there too, which gained him more power and more followers.

(38:42):
And it all stems back to him being that abandoned,
forgotten little kid on the streets that Miss Kennedy found.

Speaker 6 (38:48):
Yeah, and me thinking about, you know, that little lonely
child and everything, I do have a certain amount of pity,
not sympathy necessarily, but pity because I mean, this child
had no say in any of this that was happening
to him at the time. Yeah, So there is that

(39:09):
certain amount of pity there. I will go ahead and freely.

Speaker 5 (39:12):
Admit that for the child Jim Jones.

Speaker 6 (39:15):
For the child, I do not have any sympathy for
this man whatsoever, Like as he got older, because he
learned how to exploit this.

Speaker 5 (39:24):
You know, do you think, of course God's plan is
going to work out no matter what. But if Ms
Kennedy had just minded her own business and went on,
do you think that he would have found a way
to get to where he is? I personally do. Yeah.
I think I wonder how that would have played out, though.

Speaker 6 (39:43):
Because at this point, for that child, this is a
survival mechanism, like his narcissism was the result of a
defense mechanism, his way of surviving in the only world
that he knew.

Speaker 5 (39:56):
I think the Jim Jones story would have ended in
track at some level no matter what.

Speaker 6 (40:03):
Yeah, I just don't know if it would have ended
at the level of magnitude that it did.

Speaker 5 (40:08):
Yeah, exactly. If miss Kennedy hadn't gave him that idea
and that acceptance and that taste of the church and
the power in the following that it gives, I don't
know that it would have ended with nine hundred people
being killed, but it would have one thousand night. But
the Jim Jones story would have ended deadly, I think

(40:29):
no matter what.

Speaker 6 (40:30):
I think so, because I think this was just kind
of the track he was on, like his survival mechanisms,
his defense mechanisms that he built very early on in
his formative years. It was only ever going to end
badly exactly. I mean, he might not have ever become
a cult leader, but still for him and for maybe

(40:52):
others around him, yes, it's still going to end badly.
I think.

Speaker 5 (40:56):
Yeah, I think so. It was just the progression would
have went in a different direction, I think.

Speaker 6 (41:04):
Yeah. So we'll skip forward now. In nineteen seventy two,
the San Francisco Examiner profiled Jones in a less than
flattering light, calling him an influential preacher who calls himself
quote the prophet and claimed to be raising the dead.
But investigations after that article went nowhere.

Speaker 5 (41:26):
They was. I don't know why they didn't go nowhere,
because they what they're referring to is Jones claims that
a woman called him a prophet. It's what started that
idea and he latched onto it.

Speaker 6 (41:42):
Yeah, And this is kind of where he starts building
up this part of his sermon to his followers that
he is the prophet, he is almost the son of
God essentially. I don't think he ever actually claimed that.
Yeah he did, but it was heavily implied.

Speaker 5 (41:57):
Yeah, well, he can claimed that he had that he
was a prophet, that he'd had these powers he went
into the let me think what, I can't think what
it's called right now, but he was a believab Well,
what he does is he went to this church, okay,
and they were doing a tent revival type situation, and

(42:19):
he saw someone lay on hands and heal somebody there.
So that intrigued him. So he went back the next
night earlier and watched this the whole situation where these
people would come up to be healed. But he was
noticing how much money was it changing hands while this
was happening, because.

Speaker 6 (42:38):
The more healings that happened, the more money.

Speaker 5 (42:40):
These people gave. So he realized that these gifts from
the spirit healing speaking in tongues, et cetera, that ooh,
my church needsac because of the money coming into it.
So he starts moving and he starts bringing this into
his kind of congregation that wasn't.

Speaker 6 (43:02):
Him that used like calves, brains and.

Speaker 5 (43:05):
Stuff like possibly, but I got some examples I'll get
to here. But so he brought this to his congregation
and he says that he has had a vision and
that he has been blessed with the power to heal
and the power to divine, the power divinity, and the
power to speak and understand tongues. No one else in

(43:26):
his congregation did, but he could do this stuff, which.

Speaker 6 (43:29):
Okay, in Christianity though, and I mean, I don't know,
I've been speaking in tongues is one of the gifts
of the spirit. Sure, but it's you, isn't it Usually
like one person has the gift of speaking in tongues
and then a separate person has the gift of interpretation. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (43:48):
Uh, it's believed a couple of different ways. That's one
of the beliefs on a lot of the theologians and
in people who studied it think that the gifts of
tongues is actually just And I kind of leaned this way,
is the Spirit gives gifts your tongue that you can
speak in the language that they understand, Like of when

(44:10):
the when the disciples, when of the disciples was go
around spreading the word back in Paul's day. For instance,
Paul's once spoke about tongues and stuff the to get
the gospel spread in countries far wide that didn't speak
your language, the Holy Spirit would gift the speaker with

(44:31):
the gift of tongues, meaning that that speaker when he spoke,
now when he spoke, he has normal voice, his normal speech,
the Spirit would translate it into the into the language
of the locals so that they can under That was
the gift that.

Speaker 6 (44:48):
Was actually but.

Speaker 5 (44:52):
Yeah, I congress again so the but anyways, uh, his
big one was was the power of healing, because he
realized that's where the money come from. In this investigation
that they's talking about here, it come to find out
that some of the things he was doing for these
healings were something out of a book or a movie,

(45:16):
like you wouldn't believe the things he was doing. First off,
he would pay people just to fake it right.

Speaker 6 (45:20):
Right, which is the easiest way to go about that exactly.

Speaker 5 (45:23):
So, and that's why he changed his tactics a little bit.
He realized that that people wouldn't stay quiet no matter
what the deal was, right, So he was getting these
elderly people because they were the easiest ones to manipulate.

Speaker 6 (45:38):
Well that and it was the easiest ones to believe.
I mean, these are elderly people.

Speaker 5 (45:43):
Ain't gonna ask questions to Grandma.

Speaker 6 (45:45):
You're not gonna look at this healthy person sitting in
the audience and say what do you need to be
healed of?

Speaker 5 (45:51):
Oh no, it's worse. He would have a to prove it.
He wanted to be realistic as possible. So this is
report on one of the things I read in a
lot of witness report talking about this is what happens.
He had this group that would go with and to
do it. They would find these little old ladies and
put quaeludes in their.

Speaker 6 (46:10):
Drinks so tranquilize heavy tranquilizers knock some out right.

Speaker 5 (46:15):
They would come through, come to in a different area,
a different room, even a different house, sometimes a medical clinic,
and I'm air quoting here with casts on their legs
in the wheelchairs and stuff. They would then take in
them the Jones explaining that you fell down and you
broke your legs and you just now woke up, so

(46:36):
we're gonna take you to Jim Jones because he says
father Jones can kill you.

Speaker 6 (46:41):
The prophet Jones all that.

Speaker 5 (46:44):
So this woman waking up groggy, don't know what's going on,
seized the medical evidence that she's been broken. Take some
to Jim Jones, who just happened to have a crowd
of people around to see it happen. Speaks over sometimes
in tones, his hands on her cuts to cast off
under great fanfare, with everybody watching, and lo and behold

(47:07):
the leg is healed. Rise and walk my sister, and
she does, and people ate it up.

Speaker 6 (47:14):
Well, I mean again, people ate it up because this
is what they're seeking. Yeah, you know, they're they're looking
for miracles like we, I mean, all of us Christians.
We want to see miracles, like we absolutely do. We
want to see this miraculous evidence of God. You know,
we absolutely do. And he knew that, Oh yeah, for sure,

(47:35):
he knew that. So this goes back to the part
of antisocial personality disorder where he consciously saw this need
in other people, and he exploited it for his own game,
because it got him money, because it got him fame.
All of this was entirely exploitative, which is very very

(48:00):
he with basically every cult leader. We're not going to
see one single cult leader, maybe Marshall apple White, like
we talked about last time, believed in his own product.

Speaker 5 (48:10):
Basically, I think maybe that one.

Speaker 6 (48:12):
I but Jones, No, he absolutely knew what he was doing.

Speaker 5 (48:18):
Yeah, he knew exactly what he's doing, and I think
the biggest evidence of that is the very last thing
he does proves that.

Speaker 6 (48:26):
He absolutely Now I have I am now reading a
note from the tiny tyrant. She's wrote I love you
Mommy at the top of my showart. It's but yeah,
I mean he was he was giving money to the
na A c P, the Acumenial Piece Institute, which acumenial

(48:48):
is just the kind of not really congregation of different
Christian denominations, but kind of a congoboration I guess of them.
And it be a Senior Citizens Travel service, which what
I read they called it escort service, which is an

(49:09):
entirely different thing in my mind. But no, this was
helping like elderly people like get around town, run their eras,
do what they needed to do travels.

Speaker 5 (49:17):
Most of the CDs have got a version of that.

Speaker 6 (49:19):
Yeah, we have it here where we live. So but
h okay, now we're going to fast forward September of
nineteen seventy six. Uh, the Burtons, which, like I said,
they were the US representatives. Where did I put their names?

Speaker 5 (49:34):
So basically he had been this is out again out
in California. He had been spent the last six to
seven years building this reputation with the But I say
he did like with the cities into politicians, right, Yeah.

Speaker 6 (49:53):
The Burtons, Willie Brown, Revn Williams that I quoted earlier,
Moscone who was the mayor at the time, radical academic
Angela Davis, an attorney Vincent Halidan and Lieutenant Governor Mervin
Damallee Dimile and a publisher named Carl Goblett. And they

(50:13):
actually ended up there was a big benefit dinner and everything,
and they all all of these people, two US representatives
of an assembly meant all this kind of stuff. They're
all toasting him Jones at this benefit dinner.

Speaker 5 (50:28):
Oh yeah, that's a don't They wind up putting him
in charge.

Speaker 6 (50:34):
Of A month later Moscow and the mayor named Jim
Jones to a seat on the San Francisco Housing at
the Wordy Commission.

Speaker 5 (50:42):
And see that also him getting that that toast in
an award. His award was being put on that commission,
the housing.

Speaker 6 (50:50):
They were just kind of recognizing him for his works
in the community.

Speaker 5 (50:55):
The last six years in that community, of that area.
He had poured for He had put forth all the
effort to win people over. Like I said earlier, Yes,
it was all tongue in cheek when I opened up
the show. But the things he was doing all for
his own benefit.

Speaker 6 (51:10):
Ultimately a darling of the California liberal elite. Yes, absolutely,
he was an absolute darling of them. They loved him.

Speaker 5 (51:20):
They I mean, they gave him a seat in politics,
no formal training whatsoever, they.

Speaker 6 (51:26):
Political authority commission, and he had I.

Speaker 5 (51:30):
Mean, he was on top of the world until until
the very moment he started selling Tesla trucks a cyber
truck and then once he crossed over doors, I'm sorry,
I'm sorry. So so the the darling of the left. Uh,
as long as they stayed the darling of the left
and didn't disagree with them, continuing to be a darling

(51:52):
of the left.

Speaker 6 (51:53):
And that's how we see this.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
I tried to type this to not interrupted interrupt you
to but it didn't go because I used the word
that ex chat doesn't like. So I have a question
you mentioned Willy Brown. You mean downtown Willy Brown liked
to Kamala bing and.

Speaker 6 (52:07):
Dude, like I said, it was that Willy.

Speaker 5 (52:10):
I missed that part.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
That's why I was double chicken.

Speaker 6 (52:13):
Assemblyman Willie Brown. Yes, that Willie Brown him, because I mean, okay, look,
that's where Kamala got her star was in San Francisco.
Oh yeah, Willie was already in power in various positions.
And I'm sure she.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
Knows all that.

Speaker 5 (52:29):
You said, positions. Yeah, but that's it.

Speaker 6 (52:34):
That's another Yeah, that's it's that Willy Brown. So but okay,
after all of this, press members actually start to ask questions.
Starting in about nineteen seventy seven. Oh yeah, so this
is when Jones decides to move his diehard followers that
were gonna just up and you know, follow him no
matter where he went. He moves them to Guyana, South America,

(52:59):
where he actually been building a compound for several years.
This is intent, this is premeditation. He knew, I think
that he was going to have to flee the US
because he was building this compound in Guyana for several years.

Speaker 5 (53:17):
You know what, how he kicked all this this off?
He actually they were still in Indiana when he started
this movement here to get out of the states. When
when they fled California, and then when they fled Indiana
to California. The way he got people to follow him
because he didn't start over fresh in California, he took

(53:38):
his congregation with him.

Speaker 6 (53:39):
I said, there were still diehard followers this entire time.

Speaker 5 (53:43):
And the way he done it is he told him
that he had had a vision. Because remember this was
the fifties. Is when they moved from Indianapolis to California.

Speaker 6 (53:52):
Sixties, the Cold War.

Speaker 5 (53:54):
Was still going on pretty heavy, right, he said that
there was going to be a bomb. In his a
bomb go off in the Midwest and they were no
longer safe, so they moved to California in his vision.
They told him that's that's how he justified moving.

Speaker 6 (54:10):
To escape this like nuclear holocaust that he prophesied about
that he got a vision of.

Speaker 5 (54:16):
And now in California, this political uh, his power rise
to power starts catching attention of the wrong people or
an art case, the right people, and he's like starting
to feel a pressure on this kind of stuff, and
that's why he decides to start built getting the land
in Guhana the socialist country of Guhana yea.

Speaker 6 (54:39):
And again this is South America. So he was planning
this for years.

Speaker 5 (54:43):
Well, the way he got to deal on it is
the guy in A government was offering up these plots
of land for any international group that wanted this land.
All they had to do was come to the land built.
You know, they had to they had to take care
of his house far as building the wrong how with
hats and stuff. But in its change, they were supposed
to grow crops to help feed the populace of Guyana.

Speaker 6 (55:05):
Yeah, they became the it was the people's temple, like
what agricultural something. Yeah, I can't remember the exact name
of it now and I should have written that down,
but that's how it was labeled. Yeah, essentially it was
this agricultural community exactly.

Speaker 5 (55:23):
And that so like like you're saying this was planning,
you can just up nine a thousand people and go
to Guyana all at once.

Speaker 6 (55:31):
Well, I don't think all of these these people necessarily
came from the States, because once they got to South America,
they actually had some of the neighboring people, the community
and everything. They would send their kids to the quote
unquote school at Jonestown. Well, like there were propaganda videos
that they were putting out all the time of these

(55:52):
children like laughing and you know, coming out of the
school and everything going home, and you know they were
going to go help their parents, you know, with crops
and everything, and it was presented, is this wonderful thing.

Speaker 5 (56:05):
Let me back up. You can't just take three thousand
congregation people and move them all to Guy In at once.
Jones knew this, and like you said, it tends to premeditation.
He already knew that when he did flee, he was
going to not have his whole congress. He's got some
people following for sure. So he had it set up

(56:29):
with a guy in the government, like you said, with
these promises to not only do the agriculture, which was
part of the deal, but he had made promises to
bring in infrastructure, to bring in schools for the people
in the area, to help build roads for people in
the area.

Speaker 6 (56:45):
To give them jobs.

Speaker 5 (56:46):
Yeah. I mean he had made this against telling Guy
In everything they wanted to hear so that they would
bring him in and not give him a lot of
crap when he comes through the border.

Speaker 6 (56:57):
And they also I think the people in South America
and everything. When they were talking to him, probably weren't
aware of all of the issues that now he's trying
to escape.

Speaker 5 (57:08):
No. I mean, of course Jon didn't say like, oh,
I needed a political asylum down there. That's he sold
it as this is good for you, just like he
sold them to you. He's so gone of the same
stuff that he was selling his followers.

Speaker 6 (57:24):
Yeah, with the followers this we're going to solve racial
injustice and poverty and everything. And with them, the poverty
tied into that because of the communism aspect of it,
the Marxism. Yeah, you know, this is just going to
be a place where we can all get together and
live in harmony and everybody works and everybody eats, and

(57:44):
you know, nobody owns anything. That whole aspect of Marxism
was put into play here in South America.

Speaker 5 (57:53):
Was basically a socialist commune, which is communists basically in
a socialist country. And he had made a deal with
their socialist president that if you let us in, we're
gonna do all these good things for you and for
your country because we're such good.

Speaker 6 (58:09):
So it's so benevolent, and you know, so.

Speaker 5 (58:12):
When the time comes, they start coming over the border
through customs and all that stuff. They don't blink an I.
All the followers had to do is say, hey, y'all,
we're with people's temple, agricultural whatever it was.

Speaker 6 (58:26):
Yeah, these are not single people. These are families at
the same time, and the.

Speaker 5 (58:30):
Custom officials be like, oh, you're with them, come right
on through. They didn't check badge, they didn't check crags, nothing,
They they ushered them right through. And that's gonna come
in importance later. That's why I'm bringing that up.

Speaker 6 (58:44):
So we're kind of and I do like that we're
kind of burning through at least the facts of this
very quickly because then the rest of it can be
just discussion. But so now we're in nineteen seventy eight,
let's fast forward to them. It has come out there
are people that have left this commune and that are

(59:06):
saying that they're trying to get their other family members
out of there. So in nineteen seventy eight, Congressman Leo
Ryan he goes to Jonestown because he's going to investigate
all these claims that people are being held against their will,
they're being abused. He goes in with photographers and reporters

(59:27):
and other people like he was not alone when he
did this, No, he had an entraage, an entourage.

Speaker 5 (59:33):
But what tip that off really is when the followers
got down there, they would promise all these things. Well,
it turns out their compound and living quarters wasn't anything
was promised.

Speaker 6 (59:49):
With socialism.

Speaker 5 (59:50):
Remember in nineteen seventy seven, it's when when the migration
to God has started. This is just seventy eight. They
wasn't there long. But the people there, their living arrangements
was horrid, their work conditions was horrid. The abuse from

(01:00:10):
Jones cranked up to unbelievable levels, the control and all that,
and this one woman, I don't remember her name now
was wanted out. But one of the things that happened
is when they would get to Guyana. First off, they
would take all their funds away from them. All their

(01:00:32):
money would go into the bank, the people's church bank,
people's temple bank.

Speaker 6 (01:00:39):
All the money went back into those coffers.

Speaker 5 (01:00:41):
And then they also took their passports for quote unquote
safe keeping. So basically, all these people were there and
they can't leave. They have no passport or anything to
leave with. First off, there there's no way for them
to leave the compound because and something else Johns was doing.

(01:01:03):
I'll tell you after this, they couldn't leave a compound,
but they were still being able to go into town
to buy supplies and stuff for the temple underwatch guarded watch,
but there is also getting mail from the town would
come up to them, they'd be a postman to come up. Well,
one day the postman is coming up in a tatsi

(01:01:23):
and he hops out and he goes like, is this
where the American citizens are? And the lady on the
porch several weeks before, had sent a note, a letter
to her parents saying I got to get out of here.
This is crazy. She wanted out. But she's playing it
cool because she knew that there was punishments.

Speaker 6 (01:01:41):
If not harsh, harsh punishments. So I think that's where
the allegations of abuse came from.

Speaker 5 (01:01:46):
When she says it depends, So the guy asked about
American citizens, she yells back from the brand of the
porch and says, it depends who are you and what
do you want to know? And at that point that
woman's mother steps out of the back seat of that car.
Of course she recognizes her mom. She jumps over the

(01:02:07):
railing of the veranda.

Speaker 6 (01:02:08):
That's my note for after.

Speaker 5 (01:02:10):
Jumps over to veranda, runs to the car, and on
their way, she's screaming, don't give up your passport, don't
give up your passport. Runs into her mother's arms, screaming,
take me home, take me home now.

Speaker 6 (01:02:25):
That's awful.

Speaker 5 (01:02:26):
So they jumped back in the car and they fled
back to the to the town before anyone can come out.
Her getting back home is what peaked off Ryan and everything.
That's when they need to.

Speaker 6 (01:02:38):
I think that's the same woman I'm thinking of. And
I say woman because she is a woman now. And
I've we've referenced the people magazine investigates when they did
their whole series on Colts Uh. They actually do interviews
with some of the survivors, some of the people who
managed to get out of Jonestown before everything happened, some

(01:02:59):
of of like the stories and everything are absolutely awful
because Jones and you actually mentioned this earlier or to
me earlier, but not on the show. Jones, when he
was a child had a fascination with Hitler. Yeah, like
an absolute fascination with Hitler.

Speaker 5 (01:03:17):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (01:03:18):
And I actually think that one of these stories from
this survivor. I don't know if it's the same girl
that you were just mentioning. I don't know if it's her,
but it was a she was a young girl at
the time.

Speaker 5 (01:03:30):
I want to say her name was her first name,
but I may be wrong.

Speaker 6 (01:03:34):
I'm not good with names, but I distinctly there there
is a clip of this this woman talking about when
she was a girl that in the schools and everything,
Jim would get to go in on these sermons and
he would go until like four or five six o'clock

(01:03:55):
in the morning, like four hours of the night. This
girl said that, like, of course, you know, she's young
and everything, she's dozen off and she said, Jim woke
me up and I was looking into the barrel of
a gun and he said that if I dozed off again,
he would have to shoot me. So there's an enormous amount,

(01:04:16):
especially with these children, of psychological abuse going on for them.

Speaker 5 (01:04:21):
Before that you had mentioned Ryan was on a congressman.
Ryan was on his way with a truth with a
group to investigate.

Speaker 6 (01:04:30):
With them.

Speaker 5 (01:04:31):
Do you want to talk about all the abuses stuff
that's going on that jonestown before we talk about Ryan
in the runway, or do you want to go ahead
and go through that's.

Speaker 6 (01:04:40):
Relevant to go into the abuses that were suffering. I
know there were other survivors and everything that said. One
of them was like a teacher quote unquote teacher in
the school and whatnot, and her and the children. These
are young children. I mean we may be talking like
a early as five years old. They have to be

(01:05:02):
in school, you know, about the normal time from morning
to in the afternoon. But then they'd all have to
go back out and like deal with the crops, deal
with the agriculture and everything, and then they would have
to go and just eat rice or something that had
weevils and other pests and everything in it. They I
mean there were bugs in their food.

Speaker 5 (01:05:24):
Well they needed protein with their rice.

Speaker 6 (01:05:27):
I mean maybe that was his reasoning there, but I'm sorry,
Like I even gag when I'm putting out food for
the birds and those mealworms are still moving. So I
don't like it. Like there's absolutely no wow. I probably
would have starved to death before anything ever happened if
it were me, Yeah, just because of that. But I

(01:05:48):
mean the condition, the living conditions were horrific.

Speaker 5 (01:05:53):
I have details on that if you want, Yeah, go ahead, Uh,
first off, mister brass, Yeah, the fascination with Hitler wouldn't
necessarily be a sign of trouble if they were like
a historian, And I completely agree. I mean I've done
studies on Hitler too, in a historical manner, and especially
his art and stuff like that.

Speaker 6 (01:06:12):
Well you know me too, Like I actually kind of
had an obsession with World War Two when I was
growing up, But it was also in the same vein
as my true crime session always was was I need
to understand how these people could have gotten to this
point to be able to do these horrific things? What
happened here?

Speaker 5 (01:06:29):
I think Jones's obsession was from the opposite view, was
like how did he talk them into doing this?

Speaker 6 (01:06:35):
Absolutely? How did this man gain control over an entire country.

Speaker 5 (01:06:39):
The people of Lynn, Indiana would talk about how anytime
radio would talk about Hitler or the Nazis and the
war that was going on at the time, that he
would click his heels and do the salute and sing
hell Hitler. Yeah, anytime he had anytime was brought up.

(01:06:59):
So he seemed to be fascinated as a fan.

Speaker 6 (01:07:02):
Rather than an intellectual, like how did this happen? Type
of bill.

Speaker 5 (01:07:08):
But back to the living conditions when they arrived in Guyana.
This is from some quotes from people that survived. There
was one hundred plus that survived.

Speaker 6 (01:07:22):
I think there were barely fewer than one hundred members
actually survived.

Speaker 5 (01:07:26):
I saw it like one hundred and nine.

Speaker 6 (01:07:28):
There were some, I say a few survived that event.

Speaker 5 (01:07:33):
I'm talking about the ones that got out before. Yeah, they.

Speaker 6 (01:07:38):
Yeah, there are more survivors than that.

Speaker 5 (01:07:41):
Yeah, yeah, I mean. So they was talking about when
they would come into Guyana, they would have to show
their passport and and all that, and which I was
actually surprised they had passports in the seventies. I didn't know.
But so they when they told them they was with
the People's simple when they told them was that that group.

(01:08:08):
They'd all the people of guy in the customs with
a smile, and their demeanor would change and they would
just wave them on through, welcome them, thanking them for coming.
Is this your luggage? Yes, okay, your crates are coming
off the plane right now. And one of the women
that I saw our interviewed said, crates, all I have

(01:08:32):
is this, and the custom guys just kind of looked
at her blankly, just kind of Staring and the other
Jonestown representative that was meeting them at the gate would say,
yes that's her gate, or yes that's her crate that
comes with us. Those are supplies, and they'd bring them
on in. So the deal that Jones had made with

(01:08:56):
the guy in and government already with Shady and now
you've see these crates being brought in through customs and
not even been blinked at.

Speaker 6 (01:09:05):
People that they're supposedly attached to are like, I don't
know what you're talking about.

Speaker 5 (01:09:10):
So it comes to find out that yes, there was
some things in the crate that we'll never know what
was in there. But also inside the crate was firearms, rifles,
and those rifles was going to John.

Speaker 6 (01:09:23):
The deadly quote unquote assault rifles.

Speaker 5 (01:09:26):
Those rifles was going to Jonestown for his security force.
Some of those riffles was also going to guy in
the government to arm their troops. I guess. So he
was running the guns operation out of there too.

Speaker 6 (01:09:43):
Yeah, I mean, that wasn't what he was known for,
but he was also doing that just for his own gain,
so that he could have the guns that he wanted.
And he's like, okay, well i'll throw a few your
way too. It wasn't actually, I don't think you could
call it a gun running operation because that brings some
mind like cartels stuff, and you're.

Speaker 5 (01:10:02):
Just getting in the size of it. It's absolutely a
gun running operation because he was bringing them across the
borders into foreign countries. But again he's also bringing drugs
and things like that along too for his own consumption
and no telling what else money. But he was definitely
using his church and their mission down there for some nefarious.

Speaker 6 (01:10:26):
Front, just like basically every other.

Speaker 5 (01:10:28):
Cult is, right, So that was one of the things. Now,
when they people got to the compound, they realized that
these buildings had no running water, no electricity, They had
triple bunk beds, not just two but three bed bunk beds.
Some of these buildings had up.

Speaker 6 (01:10:50):
They were literally stacked on top of each other.

Speaker 5 (01:10:52):
Some of these buildings had up to over one hundred
people in each building because of the way it will
just set.

Speaker 6 (01:10:57):
Up and stacked on top of each other.

Speaker 5 (01:11:03):
Again, you had Guyana South American heat, the mosquitoes, and.

Speaker 6 (01:11:10):
You're thinking no running water, so there's no plumbing, Yeah,
there's no showers.

Speaker 5 (01:11:17):
No the living conditions, the heat. Number one the mosquitoes,
the poor hygiene conditions. It began to make people sick
pretty quick. Yeah, the people were suffering in a lot
of ways. And then the men had their bunk houses,
the women had theirs. If you as a family in

(01:11:37):
the beginning, you can still stay as a family unit,
but that changes shortly. But one of the men who
was talking about his bunk house thing is they would
work in the growth in one of the groves, the orchards,
and his shift was from six am to six pm.

(01:11:57):
They sometimes got lunch while they worked.

Speaker 6 (01:12:02):
So most of the time it was just twelve hours
in that grueling heat. It was twelve hours sun up
to almost sundown.

Speaker 5 (01:12:10):
It was twelve hours a day, six days a week.
When you got into eat your mess hall, it was
usually rice or something very very small, local top.

Speaker 6 (01:12:20):
It had bugs in it.

Speaker 5 (01:12:21):
Local top vegetation. And then you attreated to Jim Jones's
marathon sermons sermons. So that's the type of psychological warfare
right there.

Speaker 6 (01:12:34):
Yeah, because I mean you saw, okay, was it a
Waco that they were like blasting the music twenty four
to seven, and Adam, this is kind of essentially the
same thing. This man is just basically screaming at you
for well into the night and into the early hours
of the morning. Yeah, and you have to get up
at six am and go back out into the fields.

Speaker 5 (01:12:56):
So his followers begin to realize that, hey, this ain't
for me, this is not what we was told was
going to happen. So they started want to leave and
mumbling started, murmuring started about how bad it was and
they wasn't happy. Well, Jim Jones's response to this was
to publicly humiliate and punish them in front in front

(01:13:20):
of everybody in this big public mess hall where the
scene happens, yep. And they would bring them up on
stage and explain to them, explain to the audience how
that these people have failed, and that they would be
punished there in front of everybody. And it usually happened
by the quote unquote Board of Education, which was a
giant paddle.

Speaker 6 (01:13:42):
Yeah, brass said, it's sad to hear about the kids
that died from the drink. It's one thing for adults
to be duped into this, but the children are really innocent.
And I'm actually going to get into that here in
a little bit, because it's way more horrific than I
think most people know.

Speaker 5 (01:13:59):
Well even and then before the fatal night, Uh, these
children were being abused as well, not so much physically,
but definitely mentally because anytime a family spoke out, and
this was beginning to happen more and more. Jim Jones,

(01:14:22):
in his desperation, I guess to keep control, decided that
it takes a village to raise a child.

Speaker 6 (01:14:31):
Let me ask you this question, because it's going to
tind of where you're going with this. Well, what's the
best way to control two parents?

Speaker 5 (01:14:40):
What's the best way to control two parents?

Speaker 6 (01:14:44):
You threaten their kid, you take their kid, And that's like,
that's I mean for me with the tiny tyrant, Like,
if I'm putting myself in this situation, I would do
anything I think to keep her out of this, like
to keep her from being punished for something that I
allegedly did wrong.

Speaker 5 (01:15:04):
And the way he would do it, like you said,
he wouldn't say he wouldn't physically punish the children. But
what he would do is it takes this model. It
takes a bility to raise a kid. You know, I
always thought it was it takes a village to raise
an idiot. But maybe I'm mixing them up each you know,
there's a village somewhere missing this idiot. But anyways, it

(01:15:25):
takes a village to raise a child. So he would
pull the child away from these parents who wouldn't towing
the line and have another family raise it.

Speaker 6 (01:15:34):
Yeah, you would, you would take their child. And for
me as a mother, like, that's one of the worst
absolute things that I can imagine.

Speaker 5 (01:15:42):
It eventually turns into basically an orphanage being raised, you know,
being raised by these quote unquote teachers.

Speaker 6 (01:15:52):
And then if that wasn't enough, they would actually say
I will kill your child in front of them.

Speaker 5 (01:15:56):
Oh yea, because it eventually esclates to this, yeah, to
threatens of murder. But of course everybody knows that the
best way to handle morale is that until the beatings
will continue until roofs. And that's exactly what he did,
is he just continues to double down with the viciousness

(01:16:16):
and just the ridiculous rules and punishments that he was
thrown out there, and in.

Speaker 6 (01:16:23):
This indoctrination is continuing via his sermons that would you
know again go into the wee hours of the morning,
and it.

Speaker 5 (01:16:32):
Does eventually, just like all the rest of them do
have an element of sets involved.

Speaker 6 (01:16:37):
Yeah, but there's not a whole lot of allegations of
like sexual abuse of minors with him specifically. But yes,
he still would give like minor girls to like his
security detail and whatever female they wanted they could have.

Speaker 5 (01:16:56):
And he also as the father, he would keep people
in line by certain ones would be blessed with his presence,
and he would put relations with the why with the couple,
both of them man and female at separate times, so

(01:17:20):
they would both be tied to him separately.

Speaker 6 (01:17:22):
Well, again, you got to think that with any kind
of sexual abuse and everything, it's about power and control.
It's not actually about the act of sex.

Speaker 5 (01:17:30):
Of course.

Speaker 6 (01:17:31):
That's so for him to incorporate the man into this too,
is him saying I own you body mind and spirits.

Speaker 5 (01:17:40):
Yeah, and that's exactly what he was doing.

Speaker 6 (01:17:42):
Like, that's exactly what that is. It's not that I mean, obviously,
I think he probably had to have some kind of
homosexual tendencies to be able to at least perform with
a man. I don't know, unless it was just that
he got off on the power aspect of it and
that was.

Speaker 5 (01:17:58):
Enough for him, I would assume would be power aspect
of it. Yeah, but he uh and people obviously like us,
wonder how in the world could it get to this
point when they all just leave. Well, again, the mind
manipulation that he was doing.

Speaker 6 (01:18:16):
These guns touched on it in every episode just about
people are seeking something, so it's easy for them to
fall into this.

Speaker 5 (01:18:23):
Well, he done it by fear he had, and not
the opportunity to control all media. Again, Guyana. There was
no newspapers. Well, the town had newspapers that had no
access to them. Jim Jones was the only one who
was allowed to have a paper.

Speaker 6 (01:18:42):
The actual compound had no infrastructure whatsoever.

Speaker 5 (01:18:45):
Now there was no TV, no radios or anything.

Speaker 6 (01:18:48):
The onlyss to the outside world was heavily controlled.

Speaker 5 (01:18:51):
The only thing they had was a ham radio and
Jim Jones was the only one who could operate it,
allowed to touch it, so he would have his own.
The only way they got used information was through him.
He was the media, so of course he was putting
out this narrative that the United States had basically fallen.

Speaker 6 (01:19:12):
And we see this kind of thing happen in dick
chatorships like North Korea for example, like where all of
the media is very very tightly controlled when all of
your outside information comes from one source.

Speaker 5 (01:19:25):
And remember his followers at this point was like ninety
percent black at this point in Guyana, and people who
wanted to leave and go back to the United States. Again,
most of them were African American black folks right well.
And his narrative, United States it had fallen, the civil

(01:19:46):
rights movement had failed, and retaliation all the white folks
was gathering all the black folks and putting them in
concentration camps, and that the United States was an enemy
and they could no longer go back there. Yeah. He
also he also had these fear tactics where just out

(01:20:09):
of the blue, in the middle of the night, all
these things, gunfire would erupt outside of their compound in
the woods, in the forests, and he would say that
it's his people fighting off the American troops and stuff
to keep them safe. And really was this is on
people out there firing guns.

Speaker 6 (01:20:28):
But see that, to me is also an amazing amount
of control for somebody to have that he could convince
these people, hey, I need you to go out there
and do all this shooting and everything, and they know
why he's doing it, but they're willing to do it anyway.

Speaker 5 (01:20:42):
Oh yeah, they was living the good life compared to
everybody else there.

Speaker 6 (01:20:45):
So yeah, I mean the reward versus punishment system that
he implemented here is extraordinary when you think about it. Yeah,
for this amount of people, because there were nearly a
thousand of them, they could have had an uprising and
killed him, like right off the bat. They wanted to.

Speaker 5 (01:21:05):
Oh yeah, he and one thing, keeping them isolated, keeping
them half starved, keeping them sleep deprived, telling them that
they're in constant danger, and that he and his military
his people are the wrong ones keep them safe. It's
all psychological, and he was working it perfectly.

Speaker 6 (01:21:24):
Yeah, he knew exactly the buttons to push. Yeah, and
again psychologically, this dynamic is absolutely fascinating to me. This
specific cult is why I wanted to do this episode
because of this. Ye, I mean, I just the sheer
number again of people that were under his absolute control

(01:21:47):
is astounding to me because at any point, if enough
of them had decided to rise up, this would have
been over with a much much lower body account.

Speaker 5 (01:22:00):
Oh yeah, for sure, if they would have actually rose
up and stood against him.

Speaker 6 (01:22:04):
Yeah, but they were so caled by this man.

Speaker 5 (01:22:08):
The punishment versus reward system and tie that into fear.
And then you got the.

Speaker 6 (01:22:15):
Especially when you threaten their children for those who had
children like and.

Speaker 5 (01:22:19):
Then that's a huge deal. Then you've got the other
people who's bought into it or kind of bought into it.
They are they also they also don't want to be
the odd man out. They don't want to be the
one to say no when everybody else say yes. You
got that pressure too.

Speaker 6 (01:22:35):
Nobody wants to be the one who is essentially isolated
from the crowd. Everybody has that urge to be accepted.
And that's another thing that we've we've seen in this
series play out in different cults time and time again.
You don't want to be the odd man out. You
don't want to be the one standing against the entire crowd.

Speaker 5 (01:22:59):
His favorite and most successful tools were fear and abusive
tools was fear and shame.

Speaker 6 (01:23:08):
Oh yeahely because those are highly highly effective. Like all
of us, none of us like to experience shame, not
one of us. Even when we do something wrong and
we know we've done something wrong, it's very hard for
us to admit when we do something wrong because we
don't want the feeling of shame that comes with that.
That's a natural impulse that we all have. I absolutely

(01:23:30):
get that. He got it too, and he exploited it.

Speaker 5 (01:23:34):
Yeah, it's lucky for you because you're never wrong, so
you don't have to do that, you don't have to
face it.

Speaker 6 (01:23:42):
See, I have him well trained too.

Speaker 5 (01:23:45):
But again, even with all the fear, the shame, the faults,
the fake news about the fall of America, the propaganda,
the propaganda, the gun shots out in the woods, everything
that he was doing to control a people, there was
still a lot of turmoil and people wanting to leave.

Speaker 6 (01:24:05):
And some of these people actually did manage to get
word out to their families still in America. Yes, which
now we're back into the visit from the Congress.

Speaker 5 (01:24:15):
The way they would do it is when they were
allowed to go into town to buy supplies or stuff,
they would slip notes. Yeah, and that's how they try
to use a phone somewhere, so well, that always got squashed.
It was always notes they got out.

Speaker 6 (01:24:27):
That's a international calls are difficult, so it was mostly
v mail and they were able to contact people outside
and say, hey, all of this is going on, we
need help.

Speaker 5 (01:24:42):
And the reason this contact was as loud was allowed.
Is because the guy in the government was beginning to
lose faith in Jim Jones.

Speaker 6 (01:24:49):
Because he wasn't delivering it.

Speaker 5 (01:24:51):
Was delivering on.

Speaker 6 (01:24:53):
Communism and socialism internutshell, always, always, always. But yeah, we're
back in the nineteen seventy eight. So we've got Congressman
Leo Ryan who has gone to Jonestown to investigate rumors
that the members were being held against their will and
were being subjected to abuse because the ones who did

(01:25:14):
want to leave and would try to leave were openly
threatened with death, Like I mean, that was like that
was not even an issue. They were like, no, I
will kill you if you try to leave.

Speaker 5 (01:25:25):
One of the favorite things Johns would say is go ahead,
you're free to leave. I'm not gonna pay for your flight.
So I guess you better be good at swimming.

Speaker 6 (01:25:32):
Yeah, I mean he was very notorious with the members
for saying that they would die if they tried to leave.
Oh yeah, yeah. So members actually did manage to make
contact with Congressman Leo Ran. Yeah, and they actually ended
up like getting on the plane to go back.

Speaker 5 (01:25:53):
Before you get there, I think that something else is
interesting because they got there they spent two days there. Yeah,
the first day they got there, Jim Jones had got
word they were coming.

Speaker 6 (01:26:04):
He pulled out all the stops. He was going to
show them all the good stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:26:06):
Oh yeah, he had everybody trained. He knew what they
knew what to say, they knew what to do. They
had a big, long sermon. This, this huge feast is
prepared for him. Remember everybody else and singing eating. They've
been eating rice and local vegetation this whole time. Now
Jones had juice boxes, ground beef estates. He had all

(01:26:28):
that for himself in his war. But all of a sudden,
when these people, when the congressmen and these people show up,
the reporters, they have every It looks like a paradise.
And if you see the interviews of that party, they do.
Everyone there, everyone there is so happy to be there.
It's the best decision they've ever made. They loved it

(01:26:51):
all as well and good and what's eerie if you
watch multiple interviews, it's almost word for word, eat the
same on.

Speaker 6 (01:27:02):
The last day, or you know, the day before the last.
There actually were members and there are interviews with them
where you know, the congressmen or the reporters are saying, hey,
what's going on here, and they're like, we want out.
There were some members that were actually on camera saying
please get us out of here.

Speaker 5 (01:27:22):
At the party, it was all perfect and you could
tell the people that was interviewed was pre selected. They
all had exactly what they were supposed to say. It
was all practice, you could tell it. One guy, as
they were leaving the party that night, drops a note,
slips a note to one of the reporters. The reporter
drops the note. Yeah, a child sees the note, picks

(01:27:44):
it up, hands it back. Tom say, hey, I think
you dropped this. Well Jones as people see this note
being passed, So now Jones is very upset obviously that
this is happening. Well, no, that that so that wasn't
not a party. That was the following morning when the party.

Speaker 6 (01:28:04):
Was one night. I think the next day was when
people started say, you know, trying to be secretive and
trying to tell them we.

Speaker 5 (01:28:11):
Need out, like yeah, and they started telling them, like
I said, in secret after their interviews. In secret, they
was trying to slip these hey get us out of here.
That's why the note said too was please get us.

Speaker 6 (01:28:20):
I think there were a couple of reporters in this
entourage with the congressman. Yes, so they actually do have
documentation of people coming to them and saying we want out. Yes,
it's on camera.

Speaker 5 (01:28:34):
Yeah. But like I said, the party was is all
great and good, and then the people.

Speaker 6 (01:28:39):
Propaganda that he was putting out.

Speaker 5 (01:28:41):
Certain people here, certain people was coming up secretly and
sending this stuff out, which was the truth.

Speaker 6 (01:28:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:28:48):
Now, I'm sure some of the people in this party
were still partying. I think some of them actually believed
it because they were bodying so deep.

Speaker 6 (01:28:58):
Well, you've got to keep in mind there were so
many people that willingly did what they did. But that
same time, and.

Speaker 5 (01:29:04):
It was that night because I remember now on my notes,
that night is when the that first night is when
the note was dropped and he got he caught wind
of the note because the guy who dropped the note
plus some other people realized, he knows he's going to
kill me. I have to leave tonight.

Speaker 6 (01:29:22):
We have to get we have to get word out somehow.
Even even there were some of them that were like,
even if I die, it needs to get out that
people are not okay here.

Speaker 5 (01:29:31):
So him in like five or six other people were
going to leave that night, but Jones had that place
on lockdown. He had his guards everywhere. There was no
way they could sneak out at night, so they just
kind of blended in with the crowd and laid load
for that night.

Speaker 6 (01:29:46):
You got to give it to Jones. Here was a
tactical genius.

Speaker 5 (01:29:50):
That following morning, when people were starting to get up
and move about and just kind of the hectic part
of the day, it's when the group took off try
to leave, because one of them kept saying, I never
looked back. It was a woman carrying her child. She says,
I never looked back because I was waiting for that gunshot. Yeah,
she said, I did not want to see it coming.

(01:30:11):
And they finally they make it to the woods, into
the forest and they're leaving towards the airfield. They actually
hear Jones's guards talking about their rifles and stuff on
their way to the airfield for what's about to happen. Now,
the people who are escaping that night get close enough
to that attack group that they realized what's about to happen.

Speaker 6 (01:30:33):
And I don't think even if other members had not
tried to leave with the Congressman in his entourage. I
still think that Jones probably never intended for those people
to leave.

Speaker 5 (01:30:46):
At the time. That the time that the reporters got
the truth out, that's when Johnes said they're not leaving.
If his plan with the party would have worked, they
would have left. But because it got exposed at that
point is when it falls apart.

Speaker 6 (01:31:01):
Had that entourage with the Congressman and everything said after
the party, oh okay, well everything looks fine here and
they went to go home probably would have been okay exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:31:10):
But the fact that one person got that real message
out and then others started getting them bolded enough to
do the same. The reporters at that point had the
story the Congressman his entourage was going to take as
many people with them as they could. At that point,
Jones had lost control.

Speaker 6 (01:31:30):
Now that actually my immediate thought here. As good as
Jones was at reading people and everything, there's one thing
he did not account for. Desperate people will do desperate things.
He did, I don't think he accounted for that. I
think he had everybody in Jonestown so locked down. I

(01:31:50):
think he actually believed that that. He didn't think that
anybody would be so desperate to try and get out,
and I think that's his down fall because then we
see everything at the airstrip go down. Yeah, there are people.
They got out. Some of the members actually made it
to the airfield, or I say airfield. It was this tiny,

(01:32:14):
little like dirt strip. I mean you could not get
a commercial liner in there at all. You had to
have like a little puddle jumper bring you in and out.
They managed to get a handful of people of the
members on this plane.

Speaker 5 (01:32:29):
Well, there was also had trucks there to take them
to the bigger airport too, so they was gonna try
to get them out in more ways than just one.
I think the airplane was mainly for the congressman and
his entourage, and the trucks was to get the people out.

Speaker 6 (01:32:43):
At this point, I think Jones had told them, Okay,
anybody who wants to.

Speaker 5 (01:32:46):
Leave can Oh yeah, he's actually says that on camera.

Speaker 6 (01:32:50):
Yeah, anybody who wants to leave is free to leave,
is what he actually said.

Speaker 5 (01:32:55):
Because the people who had that note. The following day,
he actually gives Jones the note. He's like or no
was maybe they are that the same night, I don't know,
but he gives Jones the note, and you see Jones
on camera read the note, and his whole demeanor changes
and he starts talking about how hateful and disappointed it

(01:33:16):
is that some of his people turning against him and
spreading all these lies and all this kind of stuff,
and you can just see his whole dementor changes, and
that's when he comes up with this line that they're
free to anybody who wants to leave, is free to
leave anytime they want to. But at that moment, he
knew he lost.

Speaker 6 (01:33:34):
Yeah, he knew that everything was going to be falling
apart at this point because they were going to go
back to America. They were going to tell people what
was happening there.

Speaker 5 (01:33:43):
So that's oh. And another thing is I also think
that he had he knew that this could be a
problem that could end up being this way, because he
would have what not practice, which was a mass suicide
event if basically the world falls. Like you said, he

(01:34:06):
had been.

Speaker 6 (01:34:07):
This entire time preaching about what he called a revolutionary
suicide because it was a way for them to make
a statement to the world about what they believed and
needed to be an act of revolution.

Speaker 5 (01:34:18):
And he would call them what not drills and they
will drink flavor aid unsweetened would be the drink. So
the people knew.

Speaker 6 (01:34:30):
He wanted to see who would hesitate, essentially, so that
way he could kind of weed out those people and whatnot.

Speaker 5 (01:34:38):
Yeah, so he had had practices for this coming. Now
when he reads this note and realizes that the Congressman knows,
this is when he has to put that paint in
the motion. He knows.

Speaker 6 (01:34:50):
And the Congressman, these reporters know, and they're taking people
back to America that were part of this community. He
knew it was all over them. I think he made
up his mind in that instant. Okay, it's done. Yeah,
And at the airfield we actually then see Congressman Ryan

(01:35:13):
is killed along with four others. Yeah, eleven are injured.
Some of these were some of the members too, Yes,
that were trying to escape.

Speaker 5 (01:35:23):
Do we know who fired the first shots in this case.

Speaker 6 (01:35:26):
I don't know the name of the person, but it
did come from like the tree line. They were trying
to get on a plane. They weren't expecting an.

Speaker 5 (01:35:36):
Attack, that's true. It was an ambush attacks attack. You're right,
you're a And then I know Congressman gets killed. He
gets killed on the runway. He don't even make it
to the point.

Speaker 6 (01:35:47):
Yeah, he's taken out first. Jones doesn't know this at
the time. And I'm going to play a clip here
in a few minutes where it's Jim Jones actually like
right after this attack has happened, But Jones doesn't know
that the congressman has already been killed. He was killed
right there on the runway. Another member. They say that

(01:36:10):
they were in the airplane at the time and they
heard the gunshots and everything. And then this one man
heard his mother screaming and everything, and he looked over
at his wife and he said, the top of her
head is gone. She was the first member killed. I
cannot remember her name. I do. I plan to post
an in memoriam as best I can, but because there

(01:36:30):
are so many victims of this, it's just gonna have
to be over on X They're.

Speaker 5 (01:36:34):
Gonna put it on the front porch forensis.

Speaker 6 (01:36:36):
Yes, I'm gonna put it on our page and pen
that one. There's just so many.

Speaker 5 (01:36:40):
FP underscore for insics.

Speaker 6 (01:36:42):
Yeah, so the d memoriam looked for that there. Because
I genuinely am Even if I started now, I don't
think I'd have enough time to list all of them.

Speaker 5 (01:36:51):
And it'll be the penned tweet on at FP underscore
for inensics over on x and you can read all
the names there.

Speaker 6 (01:37:01):
But according to the interviews and the documentaries and everything,
this man's wife was the first casualty that was actually
a member trying to escape because she had been hit
in the head. Bible as she had been struck in
the head from outside the plane, because they, I mean,
they were just shooting they I mean, I don't know
that necessarily they were aiming at all, because they said

(01:37:24):
that from inside the airplane, they could hear everybody screaming,
they could hear everybody running around, but it was just
it was chaos.

Speaker 5 (01:37:33):
Yeah, I mean, they just opened fire, you know.

Speaker 6 (01:37:35):
Yeah, I mean and again Ryan Congressman Ryan Leo Ryan
plus four others were actually killed right there on the runway,
but eleven others were injured in that specific attack. And uh, Rick,
I think I can go ahead and let you play

(01:37:57):
the last the actual death recording that we have of
Jim Jones instructing his followers about what they're gonna do.
So if you've got that cueued up and everything, we
can go ahead and do that.

Speaker 2 (01:38:21):
How very much I've loved you, how very much I've
tried my best to give you a good life.

Speaker 5 (01:38:38):
But in spite of all of that, I've tried.

Speaker 2 (01:38:42):
A handful of our people, with their lives, have made
our life impossible. There's no way to detach ourselves from
what's happened today. Not only we're in a compound situation.
Not only are there those who have left and committed

(01:39:03):
the betrayal of the century, some have stolen children from
others and then in pursuit right now to kill them
because they stole their children. And we we are sitting
here waiting on a powder keg. I don't think this
is what we wanna do with our babies. I don't
think that's what we had in mind to do with

(01:39:23):
our babies. It was that by the greatest of prophets
from time immemorial, no man lay it takes my life
from me. I lay my life down, so to to
sit here and wait for for the catastrophe it's gonna
happen on that airplane. It's gonna be a catastrophe. Or
almost happened here, Almost happened the congressmaners nearly killed here

(01:39:47):
but you can't see you people's children. You can't take
off with people's children without expecting.

Speaker 4 (01:39:53):
A violent reaction.

Speaker 2 (01:39:56):
And that's not so unfamiliar to us either. If we,
even if we were Judeo Christian, if we weren't communists,
the world the Kingdom tough with violence, and the violence
shall take it by force. If we can't live in peace,
then let's die in peace.

Speaker 6 (01:40:21):
Yeah, that's that's just astounding to me. If we can't
live in peace, then less die in peace. And people
are cheering this.

Speaker 5 (01:40:29):
Ye applaud and agreeing with everything.

Speaker 6 (01:40:32):
And he literally just told them like they're trying to
take our children, so we can't let that happen. He's
telling them ahead of time because of this attack on
the airfield and everything, we have to die. Our children
have to die. And this is where I have a
very hard time talking about this, So y'all just maybe

(01:40:52):
bear with me if I choke up a little bit.
It was flavor Aid, which is an off brand of
kool Aid. It was laced with sedatives and trackers, and
then cyanide was handed out as well. And in some
of the photos from the scene, you can actually see
the jugs of cyanide sitting there on tables and everything.

(01:41:14):
And here's where here's where it gets me. The parents,
especially of the young children, the little ones, they were
instructed to actually dose their children first before they ever
ingested anything. So and even infants, like if any of
your parents, you know those little syringes that come in

(01:41:34):
like children's medicine packages, you know, it's just that little
syringe that you can, you know, kind of squirt stuff
into their mouth. They passed those out to parents too,
And you know, women were holding their babies and they
were squirting the cyanide into their mouths and making their

(01:41:58):
babies take it before they ever were instructed to kill themselves.
So I don't I don't even know how to I
don't know how to comprehend this because I just I can't.
There's no scenario in which I could ever imagine doing

(01:42:19):
that to my child.

Speaker 5 (01:42:22):
The uh. But again, like I said, if they had
practiced this, they they knew in theory they.

Speaker 6 (01:42:32):
Were eventually this was going to be requested of them,
that it was going to be required.

Speaker 5 (01:42:37):
That's when they had to practices and all this kind
of stuff. I don't think that they really understood how
severe sinid is.

Speaker 6 (01:42:43):
Yes, sinid and sini and arsenic are two of probably
the most painful ways you can poison somebody. Is It
is not quick.

Speaker 5 (01:42:55):
Some of the survivors that were actually there at this
time they said that when it all started, as you heard,
there was cheers and people celebration, And they said, as
that first started passing out, they were singing hymns and
things like that as they first started taking the ingesting
the cyanide and everything. And then is there anything else

(01:43:20):
you want to read before I say this? And then
when the screaming began, it's when people started balking. In
most cases, it was far too late because they had
already ingested the poisons.

Speaker 6 (01:43:34):
But they saw what was coming for them.

Speaker 5 (01:43:37):
They saw what because it reacted quicker on some people
than others. But they saw how the agony and the
pain and just how terrible this death was. And some
of the people that hadn't ingested it yet, they began
to flee. They wanted out. They were throwing down their
drinks and stuff, and Jones's military and some of his

(01:44:01):
most faithful inner circle was catching these people and forcing
it on them, or even just splait out shooting them
if they tried to flee the thing.

Speaker 6 (01:44:13):
Another thing that gets me is that Jones himself didn't
even have the courage to go out the way that
he was telling his followers.

Speaker 5 (01:44:18):
Right last week, we mentioned that apple White believed it
because he was one of the I believe was the
first one in his group.

Speaker 6 (01:44:26):
To say because of just the way his body was found,
we believe that apple White was the first one to
commit suicide.

Speaker 5 (01:44:34):
With the Heaven's gates because.

Speaker 6 (01:44:35):
He believed because he was preaching.

Speaker 5 (01:44:38):
Exactly and it just And this is because Jones actually
was found. His toxicology report was clean, and he had
gunshot lond to his head, so he saw how brutal
it was, and he I don't think he ever intended
to take the kool aid or to flavor ad. I

(01:44:58):
think he always intended on the gunshot. When the gunshot death,
I say, I.

Speaker 6 (01:45:03):
Don't think he ever intended to survive it. But I'm
like you, I don't think that he also ever intended
to poison himself because he didn't believe what he was telling.
It was just he loved having the adoration of that
group of people. He loved having the power over them.
That's it. That's all that this was about for him.

Speaker 5 (01:45:26):
Right his death, his suicide by henchmen, because it's believe
he had someone else shoot him of his one of
his aides is no less, it's not. It's not much
different than suicide by police or something along those lines.
In my opinion, when someone realizes they have no way
out and their life is over and they're done, they

(01:45:47):
don't want to face the consequences of prison life or whatever,
and they do the suicide by police. Just in general terms,
I think his way out was not much different than that.
It's a coward's way out because he had no true
conviction of what he.

Speaker 6 (01:46:02):
Was preaching and he knew that. I mean, he didn't
want to spend the rest of his life in jail
for this because I'm sorry, this was one suicide in
nearly a thousand murders there is.

Speaker 5 (01:46:14):
In my mind, there is no way he would ever
spend life in prison because someone else to have control
over him, and that's an idea worse than death to him.

Speaker 6 (01:46:24):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:46:26):
But yeah, you're right, this should be instead of a
mass suicide event, in my mind, it should be a
mass murder event.

Speaker 6 (01:46:32):
And we we kind of went back and forth at
least on the last episode with Heaven's Gate about including
Marrissel Applewhite as a victim in the memorium. But again,
we personally believe that he believed everything that he was
telling these other people.

Speaker 5 (01:46:47):
So that I think apple White was the first follower
of the Heaven's Gate cult and that the actual leader
died in eighty five, and then he was just the
highest ranking member, so he took hope.

Speaker 6 (01:47:01):
Yeah, and so that's why he was included in that.
But Jim Jones is not going to be included in
my I mean again, I keep going back to the
woman force feeding her own infant baby syn one. I
cannot get past that. But at the same time, like

(01:47:25):
I'm at the same I don't know if I even
consider her necessarily a victim because she bought into all this,
Like how at that point, how do you not wake
up and say this is not right?

Speaker 5 (01:47:38):
There's you can't say that because I mean, yes, she
injector or getting injected, but force fed her child and
killed him. But in other cults you got mothers freely
given over their daughters to the men and those cults.

Speaker 6 (01:47:54):
And killing your child though physically, to actually take the
step to kill your child while they are in your arms.

Speaker 5 (01:48:03):
I could think of situations where I would do that.

Speaker 6 (01:48:05):
That is just that's unimaginable to me. I can't. I
don't know, there's like a wall in my mind against this.
I just I can't. And this is this is fascination.

Speaker 5 (01:48:18):
The kids inside the makeshift of and at Waco. I
would have pulled the trigger, Yeah, I mean I.

Speaker 6 (01:48:25):
I just don't even know that I'd bring myself to
do that, even though I know it would be more
merciful than what they experience. Like I logically can understand this, but.

Speaker 5 (01:48:35):
Well, you're a woman. You can't think in.

Speaker 6 (01:48:37):
No time that actually is exactly where I was about
to go.

Speaker 1 (01:48:40):
Hang on, you're getting close to shopping list material there.

Speaker 5 (01:48:44):
No, he's right, I'm one hundred percent right. Women can't
I think in logical terms, especially when it comes to children.

Speaker 6 (01:48:51):
We can't because we're not designed that way. And I
don't know how these women got to that point.

Speaker 5 (01:48:58):
And here's the thing that doesn't make make a woman
weaker or or less. No, it doesn't, because we're just
built differently. Women where design.

Speaker 6 (01:49:08):
To compliment one another, Like where I'm emotional, you're logical,
and where you're more logical. I'm the emotion there.

Speaker 5 (01:49:15):
Yeah, Like I said that, I don't misinterpret. I don't
want to say that that is a weakness that you
think emotionally versus logically. That's not necessarily a weakness. I'm
just saying that's the difference exists, and it's a real difference.

Speaker 6 (01:49:29):
Yeah, And like you said, it's it's not a bad thing.
So my inability to to fathom being able to hold
my my child in my arms and stick a syringe
in their mouth and and you know, force feed them cyanide.

(01:49:49):
I just I have a very real mental block there,
Like I just I cannot. I can't. I can't fathom
that I can't do well.

Speaker 5 (01:50:00):
Like I said, they had been practicing, they'd been fed
alive about what Cinod would do. Number One saying, these.

Speaker 6 (01:50:05):
Are the diehards too. They got into this completely.

Speaker 5 (01:50:09):
Yeah, these are the ones that again they they thought
they were all going to go to heaven through this too, and.

Speaker 6 (01:50:17):
Then they were sacrificing themselves. And he even almost quoted
Scripture there, saying, you know, the best thing that a
man can do is lay down his life for his friends. Basically, like,
but you weren't laying down your life for your friends.
That's not what they were doing. And I don't know how.
This is exactly why I got into this, this true

(01:50:39):
crime stuff as a kid, because I can't understand it
and I need it to make sense in my mind.

Speaker 5 (01:50:44):
They were sold the line that this is the best
for them because if they get caught and sent back
to the United States, it would be worse.

Speaker 6 (01:50:53):
If I say, they were told that basically the US
was like a war zone. It was like Germany.

Speaker 5 (01:50:59):
Exactly exactly what I was going to say. It was
death camps of Germany. That's what they were being told.
So to them, the thing to do would be this
peaceful death that they controlled, and that they would be
peaceful death and that they would be awarded heaven through
this because they were in the right. So that mindset

(01:51:21):
is what they had. We understand it from the outside
of looking INDs. But to say that, I don't understand
how they could do it. To me, I logically can
understand how they could force feed that kid because they
believed so heartedly that what they were doing was the
correct thing, their only way out do I think, I think.

Speaker 6 (01:51:42):
I can understand your reasoning here. I can logically understand this,
but at the same time, there's still that mental block there,
like I just I can't get to that point.

Speaker 5 (01:51:51):
Oh I know again, you're an emotional mother and you
never will. That's why I'm here to balance out this podcast.

Speaker 6 (01:51:58):
Yeah, but he's absolutely not advocating that, like we kill
our children, Like, he's not condoning anything that has happened here.
He's not saying that just because he can understand how
they got to that point. He's not saying that it's okay.
So I think that's probably worth at least getting the
out there, like, yeah, because some people could probably misconstrue

(01:52:19):
that if they really wanted to.

Speaker 5 (01:52:20):
But well, anybody in somebody's words, I'm not saying that
there's any certain any kind. I can no one could
ever talk me into harming my own child. Now my
child's boyfriend might be a different story. Yeah right, I
can do whatever I want. But oh, what are we
still broadcasting? Disregard that part. He's a good boy.

Speaker 6 (01:52:44):
He's still not happy this year has her first boyfriend?

Speaker 5 (01:52:47):
So does he like Flavor eight? I don't know. We're
gonna find out. We're getting pretty close to them. To
wrap it up, the show. Now, I mean I needed
that we can we can sit and talk about Jonestown
for another hour. But everybody that's listening here is familiar

(01:53:07):
with Jonestown. There is a plethora of document There's a
plethora of documentaries out there that you can look it
up and deep dive as well. So we're not going
to begin going into our any more in depth on this.
I do suggest that if you do have some interest
in it, then there, Like I said, there's some really

(01:53:31):
good documentaries. Most of them kind of focus on his
adult life in Jonestown era.

Speaker 6 (01:53:39):
They'll mention the childhood in like passing.

Speaker 5 (01:53:43):
Yeah, you can find some, especially on YouTube. We found
something that actually looks more into his childhood, which I
found really interesting. But yeah, go check them out.

Speaker 7 (01:53:52):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (01:53:53):
Like I said, my recommendation is the People magazine Investigates.
They have just a whole series on Cold themselves and
it's it's completely fascinating, and this one specifically about Jonestown.
They actually interview survivors, which I think their perspective needs
to be elevated. Oh, these victims that always are in

(01:54:17):
the forefront of our minds doing this show. So listening
to the survivors honoring the people who died because of
these absolutely insane people. To understand the crime and everything,
we have to understand the person, so we do kind
of focus on them a lot, but it's the victims

(01:54:38):
that we want to leave y'all with at the end
of every episode, and in this one, there were about
at Jonestown. There were fewer than one hundred members of
the People's Temple that survived that massacre. And this was actually,
up until about nine to eleven, I think, was the
largest mass death in a American history.

Speaker 5 (01:55:01):
And some people point out that it didn't actually happen
on American soil, and that's fine, It's still American history
because they were American citizens and moved there, and yeah,
even though they were in Guyana, they were still American citizen.

Speaker 6 (01:55:14):
And I'm sure there were actually like South American citizens
that joined up with And again, every single victim that
we have a name for I'm going to post on
our page because it's just entirely too long the list,
but you can find us. Our show page is f
P Underscore Forensics on x I'm Bumpstalt. Barbie also write

(01:55:40):
for Twitchy, which that link is in my bio.

Speaker 5 (01:55:42):
Two yeah, and again the on front FP underscore for ends.
Its will be the penned tweet probably either later tonight
or tomorrow will put it up again. It's nine hundred
and nine names, so it's going to be a big
list and you can welcome to read over it or
just say a prayer in general over over of them. Yeah,

(01:56:07):
but I'm as far as naming off where you can
find me, I'm not. I mean, it's it's at what
bunk stot ken on X and that's pretty much all
I do.

Speaker 1 (01:56:20):
And will eventually probably be part of Barbie's garden someday.
Oh wait, I'm sorry they say.

Speaker 5 (01:56:25):
That, yes, future fertilizer, but that's it is. I got
eight fifty cents on my clock right now. So here
in a few minutes we have on k l RI
and radio. Directly behind us is Jut's position.

Speaker 6 (01:56:44):
Yeah, the guys are going to be rolling right into it,
and it's part two of their their show on the
Mendela Effect, which I've always found fascinating. So I know
I'm going to be listening right.

Speaker 5 (01:56:54):
I know Rick is host on it, and I think
is there to and Rick has been the voice you've
been hearing in the background chiming in. He is the
producer at Stordinaire and there's no way we can do
our show without him. I just want to say thank
you for that.

Speaker 6 (01:57:12):
So yeah, y'all just look for the memory m on
our show page.

Speaker 5 (01:57:16):
So and stay tuned for Jut's position with Rick and
already I listen. I stay tuned and listened last week.

Speaker 6 (01:57:26):
And we're going to be in the chat.

Speaker 5 (01:57:28):
So it was a great time and I'm looking forward
to uh seeing what they're going to get into tonight
and we'll probably be in and out of the chat
to following along.

Speaker 6 (01:57:37):
All right, good night you guys. Listen to a lot
of true.

Speaker 4 (01:57:47):
Cryst to night.

Speaker 7 (01:58:01):
And I like him that night.

Speaker 9 (01:58:04):
I like the girrel talk vibes.

Speaker 6 (01:58:06):
They made me feel just right.

Speaker 9 (01:58:09):
I listened to a lot of true crime.