Front Porch Forensics 08-02-25 The One About The Barbie Killers

Episode Transcript

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Speaker 6 (02:21):
The following program contains course language and adult themes.

Speaker 5 (02:26):
Listener and discretion is advised.

Speaker 6 (02:40):
I listen to a lot of True Cry. I listened
to it that night. I like the girl talk like
scary stories on the morning, and I like them that night.
I like the girl.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Well, Hey, there, all our Klrinradio dot Com friends and family,
Welcome back to another episode of front Ports Forensics. I
am bump Stock Ken and with me tonight, as always
is my better half, my partner in crime talk. She
is Cinide and Lace. You're a hostess with the mostest

(03:33):
bump Stock Barbie.

Speaker 7 (03:34):
Hey, guys, and this one tonight is not really an
autobiographical thing.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
It's just fun, yeah, sa. Tonight's episode, uh is the
one about Ken and Barbie killers the pretty on the
outside and rotten to the core, which is.

Speaker 7 (03:53):
Kind of the exact opposite of us, Like we're pretty
on the outside, but we're not rotting.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
Well, I was gonna thought I was rotten on the
outside and pretty on the insids where he's gone there. So,
as you know, fairy tales have taught us that evil
is ugly and good is always beautiful, you know, like
the old wicked Wits versus the beautiful Princess and the
handsome Prince battles of Horrible Ogre. So we all think

(04:18):
we can identify evil, don't we, because evil looks out
of place in our kingdom of the norm. But what
happens when evil looks like the noble Prince and the
fair princess, and tonight that's what we're faced with Canada
is so called Ken and Barbie killers. On paper, they

(04:40):
were the Golden Couple, blonde hair, perfect, white, gleaming smiles,
you know that plastic kind of perfect like the dolls. Yeah,
they didn't just sign, they didn't just shine and look
pretty and all that, but they used it to charm
their way past every warning sign, past every red flag.

(05:02):
Because we aren't we aren't used to evil being pretty,
so it was easy to overlook it.

Speaker 6 (05:08):
Well, that's why.

Speaker 7 (05:08):
People kind of overlooked killers like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey
Dahmer because they were what we would consider traditionally handsome men.
Like we expect these killers and everything to look evil,
to to look like something you only see, you know,
coming out of the shadows and everything. We expect them
to be physically ugly too, because that's what they are
on the inside. And so when they're not ugly on

(05:33):
the outside like they are on the inside, it throws
us for a loop.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
And that's not just a I mean, that's Hollywood teaches
us that the fairy Tales teaches that.

Speaker 7 (05:45):
I mean, you see all these all these movies and
everything of these killers and whatnot, and they are ugly.

Speaker 6 (05:51):
You know they've got the awards or you know, they
look kind.

Speaker 7 (05:54):
Of deformed or something like something you wouldn't notice about
a person instead of noticing saying, okay, well that's an
attractive person, like maybe I should go.

Speaker 6 (06:03):
Talk to them.

Speaker 7 (06:03):
Yeah, you don't want to, like the way it's portrayed,
you don't want to go up to this person to
talk to them because.

Speaker 6 (06:08):
They look weird, they look creepy.

Speaker 7 (06:11):
And that's how we get so easily disarmed by people.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
Like we're discussing tonight exactly right, And like I said,
pretty people get away with stuff.

Speaker 6 (06:21):
It's pretty privileged, is what I've heard of. Call on TikTok.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Well, there's that whole book series, the Fifty Shades of
Gray about if this guy, Yeah, well, if this guy
looked like me and lived where I live, I'd be
in jail immediately.

Speaker 7 (06:35):
You'd be an episode of Criminal Minds. But because this
guy was rich and handsome, oh my gosh, like yeah,
I'm gonna sign all these contracts and.

Speaker 4 (06:42):
Everything, all of a sudden, it's nice.

Speaker 6 (06:44):
Then yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
The same way with sexual harassment the workplace if the
dudes got money and looks good or powerful.

Speaker 4 (06:51):
Get us away with it. If he's just a regular.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
Blue colored guy, he can say, hey, nice blows and
this thing you know, it's in the char meeting.

Speaker 4 (06:58):
Yep.

Speaker 8 (06:59):
Because think about it from this perspective. What if fifty
she's agree with setting a trailer park.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
Just say, exactly right, exactly where we're headed with that.
It's it's we are trained from childhood to think of
beauty as being good and evil is ugliness. And in
this case, like I said, it's just it's slipped on
and said. And that's not just something that is like
here in the United States, because this was this case

(07:26):
was in Canada. Yeah, the cad the Canadians. The Canadians
do the same thing we do here.

Speaker 8 (07:33):
Ken said it right, it's Canadians Canadians. Yeah, we don't,
we don't. We don't call it Canadians. So why are
they Canadians.

Speaker 4 (07:40):
It's exactly right, You're exactly right.

Speaker 7 (07:43):
Okay, Well, look Candarians or people from Ontario, that's all
I mean.

Speaker 6 (07:48):
Alabamians, like I mean, come on.

Speaker 4 (07:51):
And again it's it's spelled out right. It sounds right.

Speaker 2 (07:53):
So anyways, so back to the story. Now this is
set a real quick stage here, get you mind right.
This is in Toronto in nineteen hundred and eighty.

Speaker 6 (08:05):
Seven, the year I was born from the baby.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
And so we're looking at a young Carla Hamoka. A
young Carla Hamoka, blonde, haired, reserved, she had aspirations typical
of any suburban teen at the time.

Speaker 4 (08:26):
How old was she in eighty seven?

Speaker 7 (08:27):
You know, No, I don't know.

Speaker 6 (08:30):
But in eighty seven she was seventeen and he was
twenty three. Okay, so she was seventeen and eighty seven.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
So seventeen year old teenager and Paul twenty three year
old Kenneth Paul Bernardo, older, charismatic with a violent sexual
apecite that was already in motion at this point. They
meet at a hotel restaurant, right, and in the days

(08:58):
that followed they fall into this twisted partnership that centers
around cruelty, manipulation, rape, and a murder or murderers that
shocks not just Canada, but the entire world. Really Canadia, Yeah, Canadia,

(09:22):
it shot them Canuts. So like as you know, in
some past episodes of front Ports for Engines, we've explored
how seemingly harmless attraction can morph into manipulation and violence.
Here the trajectory trajectory to this is pretty fast, but

(09:42):
behind it lies something very slow burning psychological codependency control
shared sadism.

Speaker 4 (09:51):
Before we begin, a quick warning on this.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
Okay uh, this episode contains descriptions of sexual violence, torture,
and murder. We understand that this is this kind of
case is upsetting to some of our listeners, so we
just want to give you all the heads up. As always, though,
the facts and details of these crimes are important to
better understand the people who commit them. Understanding can help

(10:17):
us hopefully know when to intervene in the future and
try to prevent these things from happening to others. So
with that, let's just go ahead and dive in.

Speaker 4 (10:26):
Honey.

Speaker 7 (10:27):
Yeah, We'll start off with Bernardo. Paul Kenneth Bernardo, aka
the Scarborough Rapist and the Schoolgirl Killer, and Carlo Leanne Homoka,
who was known as the Witch of Ontario, were a
formerly married Canadian couple who videotape themselves as they ripped
a number of teenage girls, three of whom they killed.

Speaker 6 (10:49):
They were nicknamed the Ken and Barbie Killers due to
their good looks and wealthy background.

Speaker 7 (10:55):
Paul Bernardo was born in nineteen sixty four in Scarborough
in the district of Ontario, Canada, as the youngest of
Kenneth and Marilyn Bernardo's three children. His parents' marriage was
an unhappy one, which we see a lot of that
and a lot of these episodes.

Speaker 6 (11:10):
That we talked about these cases.

Speaker 7 (11:13):
Kenneth, the father, who would later in life end up
facing charges for peeping and pedophilia, was abusive to the
other members of the family and even molested his own daughter,
which was one of Paul's sisters, Maryland. The mother was
depressive and would frequently leave her family unattended to visit
other relatives during weekends, and she eventually retreated to the basement.

(11:35):
And I think that was because she had something called
agora herbia.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, I saw something that it was progressively got worse
and worse, to the point that she moved into the basement.

Speaker 6 (11:45):
She couldn't even.

Speaker 7 (11:46):
Be around windows that looked to the outside. They could
bother her like That's how deep that disturbance and everything was.
But when he was younger, Paul actually seemed pretty oblivious
to this broken home situation, and he was described as
a happy child, but he also gained a compulsion to
set fires during his time in the Boy Scouts when

(12:07):
he was ten years old.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Now that's the setting fires is one of the three
early warning signs of the McDonald triad.

Speaker 7 (12:14):
Right, Yeah, the aspects the hear of him setting fires
so early at ten years old is already concerning the
McDonald triad.

Speaker 6 (12:24):
We've talked about this before.

Speaker 7 (12:26):
Is also known as the triad of sociopathy or the
homicidal triad, and it's a set.

Speaker 6 (12:30):
Of three factors.

Speaker 7 (12:33):
The presence of any of them are considered to be
predictive of or associated with violent tendencies, particularly with relation
to serial offenses. And it was actually first proposed by
the psychiatrists named Jay M. McDonald in the Threat to Kill,
which was an article in the American Journal of Psychiatry
in nineteen sixty three. So that homicidal triads made up

(12:56):
of three specific issues. It links cruelty to animals, obsession
with fire setting, and persistent bedwetting past the age of
five to violent behaviors, particularly homicidal behavior is sexually predatory behavior,
both of which we are going to see in this case.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
Now, we've talked about this before to tryad. It's really
fascinating how many killers we've covered from day one of
the show have at least one of these, if not
all of these in their background. It's enough to say,
folks that if your kid is showing these signs, you
should probably pay attention to them and maybe even see

(13:35):
some professional help.

Speaker 7 (13:36):
I would absolutely say the younger, like the younger that
they start exhibiting these signs, Like, guys, just like pay
attention to your kids. You know, it's like the bare
minimum of parent is supposed to do. You start seeing
these kind of signs, Okay, then something is going very,
very wrong. And yeah, I would absolutely advise professional psychiatric

(13:58):
help at this point. So we're going to fast forward
now to nineteen eighty one. Bernardo, who is now sixteen.
He suffered two major setbacks in his life. First, he
was told, after an argument between his parents that Kenneth
Bernardo was not his biological father, but he had been

(14:18):
conceived as a result of a sexual encounter between his
mother and her one favorite suitor, like some of.

Speaker 6 (14:26):
The favorite boyfriend at one time. He is repulsed by
this and begins to call.

Speaker 7 (14:32):
His mother a slut and a whore, and she reciprocates
by calling him a bastard.

Speaker 4 (14:38):
That's a healthy response, isn't it. Yeah.

Speaker 7 (14:40):
I mean, like, Okay, the kid has a right to
be angry about this and upset, but the mother should not.
Like the mother should be able to take a setback, like, Okay,
you know, I understand this anger. This is a lot
to take in. You're allowed to be angry about this.
The man you thought your father for sixteen years is
not actually your father. Anger is a normal response here,

(15:02):
So I can't actually fault Paul for this too much.
But then mom deciding to do the exact same thing
and start calling him a bastard, Like, that's just that's unhealthy.

Speaker 6 (15:13):
That's an unhealthy response.

Speaker 4 (15:16):
Yeah, and there's no way to paint that in any
way other than unhealthy.

Speaker 9 (15:23):
Yeah, this whole dynamic is just off from you and
the things that the dad was doing.

Speaker 2 (15:29):
You know, obviously the mother's not a saint either, but
my goodness, the dad was doing too.

Speaker 7 (15:35):
I said, there's no evidence that I found of sexual
assault against Paul himself. He reserved it for the sisters.

Speaker 4 (15:41):
For the sisters.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, that's all I've seen to Paul his childhood. He
didn't he seemed kind of oblivious to a lot of
it in the way up until the sister finally told
him long.

Speaker 7 (15:52):
I think that all the accounts calling him oblivious to
this are probably misleading because obviously what he was doing
at the time is probably just an ow word expression
of stuff that he can't process.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, that's probably true. He may have seemed oblivious, but
he was obviously taking it in. Yeah, and it shows
up in his sexual.

Speaker 4 (16:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (16:16):
So later on, Paul's first girlfriend was a woman named
Nadine Brammer.

Speaker 6 (16:22):
She broke up with him for one of his friends.

Speaker 7 (16:24):
She became tired of his controlling behavior, and Paul retaliated
by setting fire to everything.

Speaker 4 (16:31):
That she could given him ill love.

Speaker 6 (16:33):
It, everything that she had ever given him.

Speaker 7 (16:37):
And again we see the arson because he already had
that proclivity since for six years at this point.

Speaker 4 (16:42):
But see, to me, that's not that far out of
the norm.

Speaker 7 (16:47):
No, I mean, we see people, you know, we hear
stories about people doing this all the time, like they
toss the the ex that they're mad at or something.
They toss all their stuff out on the front lawn,
or they light it on fire.

Speaker 6 (16:58):
They do something to destroy.

Speaker 4 (16:59):
That speaks be accurate here. Most times we hear the
women do that.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah, so a guy doing that is is pretty abnormal
as well.

Speaker 6 (17:08):
I say, like.

Speaker 7 (17:09):
The guy like he's probably just gonna be like, okay,
I'm just gonna throw it out, like just tossing the trash.

Speaker 4 (17:14):
Or on the curb. Say I'm get it.

Speaker 7 (17:17):
Yeah, Like that's fairly normal for it to be the
women who go to that extreme about it.

Speaker 6 (17:24):
I'm not gonna lie about that.

Speaker 7 (17:27):
So after graduating, uh, he graduated from Sir Wilfrid Laurier
Collegiate Institute, Bernardo was employed by the American company Amway,
whose polemic sales culture influenced him.

Speaker 6 (17:40):
And now I had to look that up. But it just.

Speaker 7 (17:42):
Refers to a sales environment that's characterized by quote strong
opinions and arguments regarding sales practices and strategies. It often
involves controversial discussions about sales tactics, where team members may
defend or oppose ideas, and it often leads to a
toxic atmosphere they can hinder performance and morale. So I mean,

(18:05):
to me, it's not really surprising this kind of environment appealed.

Speaker 6 (18:09):
To Paul Bernardo.

Speaker 2 (18:10):
It just seems like an odd environment our business practice
to begin with.

Speaker 4 (18:14):
But I guess yeah.

Speaker 6 (18:16):
I mean I had to look that up when I
read about it, because I was like.

Speaker 7 (18:19):
I have no idea what this means, and I'm not
familiar with Amway or anything, so I had no idea.

Speaker 4 (18:25):
Yeah, I wasn't sure either.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
I mean, we've gotten shouting matches there in HR meetings
and safety meetings before, but I don't think that's what
they're talking about here.

Speaker 6 (18:33):
No, I don't think so. I mean, it seems like
this is something more encouraged.

Speaker 4 (18:37):
To do, like almost be aggressive with your tactics.

Speaker 7 (18:41):
But everything that y'all are going to learn from us
about Paul and everything. Again, this is not surprising that
this environment appealed to him.

Speaker 4 (18:50):
Yeah, for sure, Like this seems.

Speaker 7 (18:52):
Completely on brand. He also ended up he would buy
books and tapes from famous motivational speakers and he applied
their lessons when he and his friends met women in bars,
and he was actually really successful and seducing quite a
few of them. So by the time he began attending
the University of Toronto at Scarborough, Bernardo had developed dark

(19:15):
sexual fantasies at this point, one of which, and this
one is extraordinarily concerning.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
To me, he should read the others first, then go
back to that one, I say.

Speaker 6 (19:26):
The one that I'm talking about.

Speaker 7 (19:28):
He had this idea, this dream to build a virgin
farm where he would actually breed virgin girls to rape.

Speaker 6 (19:36):
He had a big thing about virginity.

Speaker 7 (19:38):
That was like, I guess one of his paraphilias was
about virgin girls and women. He also enjoyed forceful anal
sex and degrading his dates in public, so naturally, over
time his relationships became shorter and shorter, and he would
frequently date more than one woman at the same time.
But in every single case he was abused and threatened

(20:00):
to kill them if they spoke to other people about
the treatment he subjected them too. And even in nineteen
eighty six, two women had restraining orders against him for
making them seeing phone calls to them. And he probably
at this point like, well, we know he already did
become like starting his raping spree because he was known

(20:20):
as the Scarborough rapist. Yea, there were a series of
rapes before any of the murders ever took place.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
And yeah, and he'd been in that a while before
the murders. Yeah, I mean, he even on his own,
even in.

Speaker 7 (20:36):
High school, his early college years and everything, like he
was kind of like other girls would warn each other
about him, because he did come off as like charismatic
at first and everything.

Speaker 6 (20:46):
To get his days and whatnot.

Speaker 7 (20:49):
But these other people were like, don't go out with him.
You know, he's dangerous. Something's not right here.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, it got to the point where he was his
dating life. I've become one and done, and he didn't
have a lot of return dates.

Speaker 7 (21:03):
No, and I mean again in public denigrating them. Like
imagine if we're out at a restaurant or something and
you just start berating me loudly in public, like, no,
I'm not going to return to this guy.

Speaker 6 (21:15):
I'm not going to go on any more dates with you.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Well, he finally finds one that seems to enjoy that
and decides to go on multiple dates with him, and
that leads us to the Barbie side of this Ken
and Barbie team.

Speaker 6 (21:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (21:29):
Carla Homolko was born in nineteen seventy in Port Credit, Ontario,
to a traveling salesman, Corell Homoka, who was an alcoholic
Czechoslovakian immigrants, and he had an Ontarian wife named Dorothy Seeger,
who is an employee of a geriatric clinic. Carla had
two younger sisters, Laurie and Tammy, and we'll find out

(21:52):
about Tammy here shortly. Yeah, Carla was by all accounts,
a bright child, a good student. She was dope did
on by our father, except when he would start insulting
her and her mother and sisters during his drunken episodes,
which would force her to take refuge in the basement
when he started that all that like that was her
place to hide. So when the Hmolka's parents' marriage faltered,

(22:17):
which is big shock there, Yeah, uh, he carrel ends
up taking on a mistress and the wife's response to
this is to propose a threesome and keep on as.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Normal well as one does. So basically he was the
Jecklin high thing. Once the drinking started, he changed, doted.

Speaker 7 (22:36):
On his children, probably doated on his wife too, until
he got drunk and then it's like that switch flipped.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
And then apparently the mother was pretty submissive as well,
because she eventually broke it off. But then Yeah, decided, well,
we'll just take on the third person.

Speaker 7 (22:53):
To propose a threesome, Like I don't care what problems
we have, Like if you find a mistress or something.

Speaker 6 (22:59):
First off, there's and be a new grocery list made.

Speaker 7 (23:01):
And second off, like there's absolutely no way I'm bringing
that woman into my bedroom.

Speaker 4 (23:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
Well, you know, it could be a financial issue. She
may not have been able to leave. There's a lot
of things we don't know.

Speaker 6 (23:11):
I mean, this is still like you know, in the
eighties going into the nineties and everything.

Speaker 7 (23:16):
So yeah, a lot of the stuff there is still
that taboo and everything about women leaving their husbands or
even being left by their husbands.

Speaker 6 (23:24):
Like there's that stigma.

Speaker 7 (23:25):
There's that taboo there, and a lot of times they
were homemakers.

Speaker 6 (23:30):
They didn't have a job, so they had no financial
resources to fall back on it they.

Speaker 4 (23:33):
Did leave the husband, right or she could have been
weird too.

Speaker 6 (23:39):
Yeah, we really don't have a ton of information on them.

Speaker 7 (23:45):
But yeah, I mean from a young age, Carla was
described as stubborn and domineering.

Speaker 6 (23:50):
She was unable to compromise with other children.

Speaker 7 (23:52):
She was always willing to speak her mind to adults,
which I translate into she backed off.

Speaker 4 (23:57):
A lot, or at least stood her ground a lot.

Speaker 7 (24:02):
Yeah, And of course, like from a child. You see
that as disrespectful.

Speaker 4 (24:06):
I mean, right, you just do.

Speaker 6 (24:08):
We would think the same way about.

Speaker 7 (24:09):
Any child that did that to us exactly. I mean,
she did have a depressive episode after she was attending
Sir Winston Churchill Secondary School. She was described as dressing
a non conforming manner, So I assume there was a
uniform at school. Then she did not adhere to this

(24:30):
because I mean, yeah, this doesn't seem like it was
any kind of like Catholic school or anything like that,
but a uniformed school.

Speaker 4 (24:42):
Yeah, or an expected dress code at.

Speaker 7 (24:45):
Least she would start to cut herself. She even faked
suicide attempts as a way to seek attention too.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
So when you said a depressive episode, it's like clinical
depression type thing.

Speaker 7 (24:58):
I think that that just kind of a depressive episode
can last, you know, for months or even years.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Or do you think she was just going through the
quote air quotes here, the emo stage because home life
sucked and she wanted the attention. Dad's got a mistress.
All this kind of stuff's going on.

Speaker 7 (25:15):
Wait, she was manipulative in her own way too, and
again the fake suicide attempts kind of reflect that.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
I imagine also if you look at the cutting, I
bet you there were superficial just.

Speaker 4 (25:28):
Yeah, let you you know the say again for attention.

Speaker 7 (25:32):
We've learned about me and Daniel personally have learned about
cutting and everything, and when it's like serious cutting because
there is like major efforts to go to to hide
it and conceal it and everything.

Speaker 6 (25:48):
I can't remember what episode we did.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
That on, I don't know, but anyways, the depressive episode
and reason I'm just asking this is I dressed in
a nonconforming manner, the cutting herself from the fake suicide attempts.
My first thought is the non conforming manner of clothing
is more like the goth stage.

Speaker 4 (26:08):
And you see him.

Speaker 6 (26:11):
To make a name for herself.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
Yeah, and you see kids that go to that not
for any other reason other than that quote unquote shock value.
And if her home lives falling apart with dad and
mom and mistress, then lets.

Speaker 7 (26:24):
Say she's probably not getting the attention she's graving from them,
her parents or even her other siblings.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
The ride ups even say the fake suicide attempts were
just the way to seek attention. So I think the
cutting herself and the clothing probably falls that same category.

Speaker 7 (26:38):
Yeah, I would absolutely that's a very safe bet.

Speaker 4 (26:42):
Another way to manipulate and get some attention.

Speaker 7 (26:47):
Now, this one's there's not a whole lot of information here,
but this one's concerning to me because she got a
part time job at a pet store when she was
in high school, and after graduating in nineteen eighty eight,
she was hired by the Old Veterinary Clinic as a
full time veterinary technician. And like we just touched on
the McDonald try, had one of those things is abuse

(27:08):
to animals.

Speaker 6 (27:10):
Like I was, I was searching.

Speaker 7 (27:12):
Everywhere, but I don't think anybody ever came out that
worked with her said that she was abusive to the animals.
But I think it's probably very very likely.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
I read in one one statement and I forget where
I read it at, where a coworker at that place
was made complaints about her mistreating and iguana one of
the things. So there was at least one record for
doing some sort of abuse.

Speaker 7 (27:38):
And again we can probably also assume this from Paul
as well.

Speaker 6 (27:42):
Abused to animals and.

Speaker 4 (27:43):
Oh, I'm sure or maybe he went straight to the
rape and was using women.

Speaker 7 (27:48):
Usually this is something that escalates, It starts off small
and it just snowballs, like it just gets bigger and
bigger and bigger over time.

Speaker 4 (27:59):
He was already burned and stuff.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
So it's probably an easy step into the abuse and
of animals.

Speaker 4 (28:04):
So it's kind of falls right in line with what
we know.

Speaker 7 (28:06):
Yeah, it says like even just one of these signs
of this homicidal triad and everything, even just one of
those signs is usually a big indicator of future violin acts.

Speaker 4 (28:19):
So it's a pretty easy small step to go to
believe that he was.

Speaker 6 (28:24):
It doesn't have to be all three. It can be
one or two or all three, right.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
And then, but you know, either way, we're just kind
of speculating on that, but it makes sense.

Speaker 4 (28:37):
It really does.

Speaker 7 (28:38):
Mean I've given on the information that I know of
on their childhoods and everything.

Speaker 4 (28:43):
So I know that wedding and the cruelty to animals.

Speaker 6 (28:45):
There's nothing in that background.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
That I found, right, And I said, we know that
Carla is a vetech and all this kind of stuff
that's harasspirations.

Speaker 4 (28:57):
Apparently it was to be a veterinarian.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
So and that actually plays into this next part because
as every great couple has that, oh this is how
I met your mother or my wife.

Speaker 4 (29:09):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 6 (29:10):
This is how we met, This.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
Is how we met moment, and this is theirs on
a trip for work to veterinarian convention in Toronto. Now
we're back up to nineteen hundred and eighty seven, seventeen
year old Carla met twenty three year old Paul Bernardo
and the rest, as I say, is history. There off

(29:35):
to the races we go.

Speaker 7 (29:37):
I always wonder about stuff like this, like, I mean,
this is just a chance encounter.

Speaker 6 (29:43):
Like I mean, they didn't know each other before this.

Speaker 7 (29:45):
There was no reason really for him to be at
the same hotel restaurant as she was for that convention,
because I mean, he had no ties to the veterinary community.
So that blows my mind right there in and of itself,
just that chance meeting.

Speaker 4 (30:03):
Hey, God works and mysterious ways, and so does the devil.

Speaker 7 (30:07):
I mean, yeah, you can't attribute this to God at all,
but I mean, at least for our beliefs and everything,
like Satan and his demons and everything, they're everywhere and
they can pull some strings too.

Speaker 4 (30:21):
They have dominion over the earth and that's what they're doing.

Speaker 7 (30:24):
So I mean, it's just it amazes me, like that
chance meeting has caused everything that we're about to talk about.
And three people, and you know, countless other women their
lives have been irreparably altered.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
That strangers and the night they started raping every girl in.

Speaker 6 (30:47):
Sign, Oh my god, that's so terrible.

Speaker 4 (30:50):
What it's a love song. This is their love story.

Speaker 6 (30:54):
That's like the darkest love story I've ever heard of
my life. Well, I had no idea this man was
about to start singing, y'all.

Speaker 2 (31:02):
It's the darkest love store we've ever had on the
show too.

Speaker 7 (31:05):
So I'm just gonna like bush pass this then. So okay, Yes,
we're in nineteen eighty seven. Paul Bernardo has graduated from college.
She gets a job as a junior accountant in Price Waterhouse.
His dating slowed down after one of his last girlfriends,
who was named Jennifer Thompson, threatened to go to the police.

Speaker 6 (31:26):
No idea about what.

Speaker 7 (31:27):
But we could probably feel in some ways with our imaginations.

Speaker 4 (31:31):
Now, this.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
Graduating college, So this is eighty seven, but before that
actually met, Yes, okay, yeah.

Speaker 7 (31:38):
In May of this year, Bernardo rapes two women and
attempts to rape another. In July, right and then it's
October that Bernard and Homoka met in a hotel restaurant.
She had come to Scarborough to attend a pet store conference.
It says like they were instantly attracted to one another,
that kind of demand love at first sight. I guess

(32:01):
it's say they ended up actually having sex that same
night with their friends.

Speaker 4 (32:05):
Present, like in the same room. I guess I assume.

Speaker 6 (32:09):
So when I say their friends are present, like, I assume.

Speaker 7 (32:12):
That yes, they are in the room, and they're kind
of witnesses to this, which apparently they have very little inhibitions.

Speaker 4 (32:21):
Yeah, just look away, this is going to happen.

Speaker 7 (32:26):
So from then on, Bernardo he starts driving to see
Karla twice a week and slowly comes to end up
controlling every aspect of her life. And unlike her, unlike
his previous girlfriend, she's submitting to all this. He is
now deciding how she should dress, style her hair, even eat.

Speaker 6 (32:48):
What to believe When I.

Speaker 7 (32:50):
Say he's controlling every aspect of her life, it's literally
every aspect of her life. And she's into this, So
she's encouraging his sexual behavior.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
I guess from dear old Dad's kind of taught her
that the way mom reacted and this is the way
she's supposed to react.

Speaker 7 (33:07):
To I guess maybe so it would make a lot
of sense. That's the kind of wifely behavior that was
modeled to her when she was young, right, And we
all know that, like we we always imitate what we
know exactly. Like children, they process all this stuff and
they think, Okay, this is normal, this is how a

(33:27):
marriage is. I mean, hell, that's exactly the cycle I
was trying to break and everything when I left my
first husband.

Speaker 6 (33:34):
Because I was like, I'm not gonna have the tiny
town growing.

Speaker 7 (33:36):
Up thinking this is normal because she's gonna end up
with a guy just like this, and then I'm going
to be on the news. Right, there would be no
grocery list at that point. You're just like if it's
just gonna be an instant news cycle. But I mean
she's submitting to this eagerly, like willingly.

Speaker 4 (33:57):
Happily, playing along completely.

Speaker 7 (34:00):
I mean, she's encouraging the sexual behavior. She actually writes
his indications on a quote self improvement list, which was
kind of like a personal diary. One entry actually read
quote be a perfect girlfriend for Paul. Remember you're stupid,
Remember you're ugly. Remember you're fat. I don't know why
I tell you these things because you never change.

Speaker 4 (34:21):
Yeah, she had some definitely issues.

Speaker 7 (34:22):
There, and I'll get into why that is here in
a little bit too. But I mean this did not
end their relationship. She actually ends up revealing to him
that she was not a virgin when they first met,
and that upset Paul greatly because remember he has this
fetish is paraphilia about virgins. So it didn't end their relationship,

(34:45):
but he was really really upset to find out she
wasn't a virgin.

Speaker 2 (34:48):
Well, I imagine the thing she was willing to go
along with out weighed that because all the other ones left,
she will staying.

Speaker 7 (34:57):
Yeah, I would imagine that her complain alliance, her eager
compliance with everything.

Speaker 6 (35:03):
He was willing to overlook this one little thing.

Speaker 7 (35:07):
Because I mean, what guy, I mean, it kind of
always is a fantasy, I guess for you know a
lot of men they want the woman you know who's
just gonna say yes to everything. I mean, let's say
in some parts of that fantasy are pretty healthy, Like
that's just kind of a normal fantasy. He has taken
this to such extremes that it know is no longer

(35:31):
a healthy, a healthy thing, right, and by December, Paul
Bernardo is resuming his rapes free.

Speaker 6 (35:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (35:44):
By March of eighty eight, now the police had actually
had a task force to apprehend a the so called
Scarborough rapists. They had no idea that it was him
at this point, but the investigation went nowhere, despite the
amount of physical evidence and existence of a comp deposit
sketch that they never showed to the public until later.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
And see, that's what infuriates me is and we see
it over and over and over again in these stories
where the public are given the police what they need,
that police have the evidence, and they just don't follow
up on it. It happened with John Wyngazon.

Speaker 7 (36:19):
But I say Paul never really seemed to really try
to cover his tracks very much with the rapes. Like
they had physical evidence, they had DNA, they had all
this kind of stuff, and.

Speaker 6 (36:32):
They had like people calling in tips and everything about him.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, when we talk about the DNA, when I read
this part that we'll get to it later, it blew
my mind because they waited. They said, they sat on
that DNA evidence for not about weeks years. They sat
on top of that DNA evidence.

Speaker 6 (36:52):
And I would love to talk to one of these cops.

Speaker 7 (36:54):
Why did they not release this sketch that one of
the victims, this composite sketch that she helped them create
that looked basically identical to him. Why they said on
that they did not release this to the public until
much later, Like, that's infuriating.

Speaker 6 (37:13):
And from all accounts, Carla was actually aware of what
he was doing in this time period. And there are
actually allegations from one victim that she was present when
she was attacked, Carla was recording it on camera, but
these allegations just again the police ignored them.

Speaker 4 (37:30):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
And there's there's obvious Now these videos obviously aren't allowed
to be viewed by the public, but the police evidence
and the people investigating it, they talked about these camera recordings,
and a lot of these recordings, someone is obviously running
the camera.

Speaker 4 (37:50):
It is not like a tripod thing, yeah, because.

Speaker 7 (37:52):
The camera is moving the entire time, So somebody has
it in their hands.

Speaker 6 (37:56):
So now you need to know who is the second person.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yeah, And to me, the fact that Carla does wind
up later on video sexually assaulting some other people. For me,
from day two, from day one, Carla was involved in
these rapers and well once they met up.

Speaker 7 (38:17):
Of course, Yeah, I mean he was obviously raping women
before this because that task force and everything was implemented,
because all of these emos and everything for these rapes
all lined up even before nineteen eighty eight when they
set up the TASO. Yes, like all this was going
on to the point that they knew, Okay, this is
the same person doing this repeatedly.

Speaker 4 (38:39):
And setting on evidence. I don't understand it.

Speaker 7 (38:43):
Yeah, I cannot wrap my brain around that. I mean,
the composite sketch and everything was very detailed.

Speaker 6 (38:50):
Yeah, like it looked just like him.

Speaker 4 (38:53):
And by no means are we saying that this is
the norm for a police departments.

Speaker 3 (38:57):
To do this.

Speaker 6 (38:58):
We have this one's just furious.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
We have people of the k LR and radio family
that are current and former law enforcement. I know people
in our lives that we're friends with that are and.

Speaker 9 (39:13):
But again particular group like just they drop the ball
like at every possible moment.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
But we see this happen in other cases as well,
and it's just it blows my mind happen.

Speaker 7 (39:26):
Look, we mentioned Richard Trenton Chase the last time again
that the disorganized killer of the vampire guy. He was
actually questioned by police while he is nude and covered
in blood in a field. Yeah, and they take his
account seriously.

Speaker 6 (39:42):
And they just let him go.

Speaker 7 (39:43):
Let I don't understand how you let a person cover
the blood and naked in the middle of a field.
I don't understand how you don't take that person.

Speaker 6 (39:50):
In and do you like further questions.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
You should at least take him in and check what
the blood is. Yeah, don't say, oh, okay, it's a
cow blood. We'll take you word for it.

Speaker 6 (39:58):
Yeah, Like it's just and again like no, this is
not all cops by any stretch of the imagination, but
some of these cases that we cover where they drop
the ball, it is so egregious that it just blows
my mind.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
And like I said, again, we see it so many
times over and over and over.

Speaker 4 (40:15):
Who's the one god with the glasses? You know? Yeah? Yeah,
same thing with that, I say.

Speaker 7 (40:23):
One of his victims that actually got away is drugged,
is incoherent, is naked with handcuffs hanging off with his wrist,
and he just tells.

Speaker 6 (40:30):
The cops, Oh, it's my boyfriend.

Speaker 3 (40:32):
He's drunk.

Speaker 6 (40:33):
I'll just take him back home and they're like, okay, fine,
go ahead.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
Well, I think in this case, I think in a
lot of cases, they don't want to get involved because
but saying.

Speaker 7 (40:42):
The Dahmer case, it was because they were gay. It
was a gay couple. That's just kind of a taboo
thing back then, very stigmatized. They're like, Okay, we don't
want to touch this, Like, yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
It's easier to ignore that and let that go. In
this case, I do think the looks and the you
know what, do you call it pretty privilege?

Speaker 4 (41:02):
Pretty pretty privilege.

Speaker 7 (41:04):
That's what I've heard it called on TikTok anyways, pretty
pretty I think.

Speaker 4 (41:07):
That absolutely is playing out here.

Speaker 7 (41:09):
Let's say these are affluent, white young people, you know
again and that you know, they seem to be very upstanding,
like college educated, they're holding down jobs, like.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
And everybody knows that rapists in that area lurked in
the shadows and was had crazy eyes and long.

Speaker 4 (41:28):
Hair and crooked teeth and yeah, like somebody just.

Speaker 7 (41:32):
Know automatically, Oh, that person's dangerous. That's to me, that's
what makes Carla and Paul You're so terrifying, is because
it was so unexpected from them, just because of the
way they looked and their upbringings and backgrounds and everything.

Speaker 6 (41:50):
It was so what they considered normal.

Speaker 7 (41:55):
And you know, all these crimes and everything are not normal.
So why would these normal.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
When people be involved in this that these these two
Ken and Barbecue, they were above the norm. They were
just by the way they looks and their background, their
money and all that.

Speaker 4 (42:11):
They were to be on a pedestal almost that they
were goals.

Speaker 6 (42:17):
Say, they were the ones you aspired to be.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
Right, so you don't even think about, yeah, looking at
them too hard.

Speaker 7 (42:23):
I mean you would have probably even looked at them
and thought, Okay, you know they both come from you know,
broken homes and everything, but look at what they've been
able to accomplish in spite of that. You know, they're
holding down jobs, they're highly educated. You know, they seem
perfectly stable and normal. They would be something to aspire to,
especially because of their background.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
They're so good looking. They should be an American Eagle
elite gene commercials. I mean, that's the level of good
they are.

Speaker 6 (42:49):
Hey, and with the blonde hair and blue eyes, remember
they got.

Speaker 4 (42:51):
Good genes exactly, they fit in perfectly.

Speaker 7 (42:56):
Okay, So okay, we've we're in nineteen eighty eight talking
about the police that are set up the task force
and everything to apprehend the Scarborough rapist. Yeah at this point,
like he has not killed anybody yet. Yeah, yeah, Yeah,
the investigation again goes nowhere, despite the physical evidence, despite

(43:16):
having this composite sketch that for some unknown reason they
decided to sit on and not release to the public.
Carla is aware of what he's doing at this time,
Like it is alleged by a victim themselves that she
was the one holding the camera during her attack. So

(43:36):
in May of nineteen ninety, the police decided to show
the composite sketch to the public. This is two years
after the task force is formed, two years after they
already have the composite sketch. They wait two years to
show that sketch to the.

Speaker 4 (43:50):
Public, two years of rates continuing going on.

Speaker 7 (43:54):
So this obviously launches a massive number of tips. At
this time, Paul Bernardo had actually quit his job and
got his money by smuggling cigarettes across the US Canadian border.

Speaker 2 (44:07):
Yeah, that was actually a big thing back then. Yeah,
getting the cigarettes across the border like that.

Speaker 7 (44:12):
Yeah, I think Canada was the one who was more
strict about cigarettes and everything there, so we were.

Speaker 6 (44:16):
Smuggling them in and all that.

Speaker 7 (44:19):
But his friends, his ex girlfriends, they saw this sketch
at this point and they tried to contact the police.
But the officers, the police department is so overwhelmed by
other tips at it's time that they're kind of unable
to catch up. Basically, they're unable to follow up on this.
There's just so many tips they can't get to all

(44:39):
of them, So these from the friends and the ex
girlfriends and everything just kind of get lost in the shuffle.

Speaker 6 (44:44):
Yeah, which is tragic.

Speaker 7 (44:46):
Like, I mean, obviously they are taking these tips, they
are looking into them.

Speaker 6 (44:50):
There's just so many of them.

Speaker 2 (44:52):
The fact that Bernardo's not just his previous girlfriends are look,
I guess we call them victims ta yeah, probably way.
But his own friends even.

Speaker 4 (45:03):
Was contacting police saying hey, we know this guy, like, hey.

Speaker 6 (45:07):
This looks exactly like my friend Paul.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
But the problem with those composite sketches, and to stand
up for the police for a little while, they get
so many people go oh yeah, I think that looks
like and you get five hundred different and you've got.

Speaker 6 (45:21):
To factor in.

Speaker 7 (45:22):
There's the calls from the people who are trying to
like hurt somebody that's like pissed them off or something
like oh yeah, that's so and so, you know, trying
to get them in trouble for something.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
So when you get just a deluge of ninety nine
percent of them being cray out, that one percent of
real tips is it can.

Speaker 4 (45:40):
I can see how it could be lost.

Speaker 6 (45:41):
You have to at least look into every single.

Speaker 4 (45:43):
One of them, at least look.

Speaker 7 (45:46):
So they have to be able to clear it. So
that's why none of this, none of those tips, the
legit tips mattered at this point because they were just
kind of buried in just the avalanche of other tips
that occurred after that composite sketch.

Speaker 6 (46:01):
Was finally released right.

Speaker 7 (46:05):
In November I think that was nineteen ninety two and
November two detectives actually visited Bernardo and took blood, saliva,
and hair samples from him, but they didn't get tested
for two years.

Speaker 4 (46:17):
Yeah, that's the DNA that they just set on well,
I don't.

Speaker 7 (46:20):
Know what they set on them, because keep in mind,
this is a late eighties, early nineties like it takes
a lot of time. Like our DNA testing capabilities even everywhere,
other countries and everything had the same problem. It took
months and years to actually get those results back.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
Well, I have visit anything like the healthcare system up
there too.

Speaker 4 (46:46):
This all delayed as well.

Speaker 7 (46:48):
So yeah, I mean again, these were I guess maybe
to the people testing the samples and everything. Okay, these
are just rapes, like these women are still alive and everything.
We've got other more pressing case is that need DNA evidence.

Speaker 4 (47:02):
But you're right, but the process has got a lot
quicker now.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
Obviously forty years later nearly, but the but even though
two years, I mean that was.

Speaker 6 (47:13):
Actually pretty normal back then.

Speaker 7 (47:16):
I mean, okay, look at CSI that came out like
what late nineties and early two thousands and everything, even then,
they have still had to wait months, really, in all
honesty to get results back. They talked about it wasn't instant.
It wasn't like, you know, you just run it there.
Now we have a database, that's no.

Speaker 2 (47:35):
I've seen those shows. It takes about forty seven minutes
and then it comes in. I know, they have the
guy arrested by the end of hours.

Speaker 7 (47:43):
They wouldn't it be awesome? Like if real life was
like those TV shows like there would be no bad
guys anymore, Like they'd all be in jail.

Speaker 6 (47:51):
We'd have to build more jails.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
Yeah, that would be something though, family issues to be done.
In twenty two minutes, everything is.

Speaker 7 (48:05):
Happily resolved and tied up in a neat little bow
and everything at the end of the at the end
of an hour.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
Right, but we congressed again. So now Bernardo old Bernie,
he has Carlo exactly where he wants her in his pocket.
He do whatever she wants to. She's willing, obvious signs

(48:33):
says that she's participating, not just letting him do it,
but taking part.

Speaker 6 (48:38):
Willing participant in these crimes. It seems like up to
this point.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
And my goodness, the turn it takes with her being
willing to participate, Like it's all.

Speaker 7 (48:48):
Bad enough, it's all stomach churning, but this, honestly is
actually just nausey.

Speaker 4 (48:54):
So the people that's supposed to love you protect you
the most. Boy. She fails here.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
As the nineteen nineties progressed, so does Bernardo's increasingly sick perversions, right,
and he becomes assessed with Carlos fifteen year old at
the time, fifteen year old sister Tammy.

Speaker 7 (49:18):
And I want to pause here because I always say this,
like to put this in perspective. Our own daughter of
the tiny Tyrone is.

Speaker 4 (49:24):
Fifteen right now, Yeah, fifteen.

Speaker 7 (49:26):
Years old, Like this is I mean always it's unimaginable
to me, and I say it every single time, but
every single time we'd go into these details of these cases,
like it's so hard for me to wrap my brain
around how somebody could do this. Yep, Like especially her
own sister, her older sister.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
Here, I purposely block out the part of our daughter's
age when we do these shows.

Speaker 6 (49:52):
Well we have to, but I always bring it up.

Speaker 4 (49:54):
So obviously.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
Paul had access to the sister because of being Carla's husband.
Were they married at this point, boyfriend.

Speaker 6 (50:09):
They got married till nineteen ninety.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
One, Okay, So he was spying on Tammy basically watching
her voyeurism whatever it's called.

Speaker 7 (50:20):
Tom basically, Yeah, I don't know would he actually be
considered like a peeping Tom or a lawyer or something
if he was. He was known to the family like that,
he was there all the time because he's dating.

Speaker 4 (50:30):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
I don't think peeping Tom, but bowyer he was still
watching her right either way, he become obsessed with her.
He hatched a plan to rate Tammy, and he needed
Carla's assistance to do so.

Speaker 7 (50:46):
And what makes Carla's assistance here, that is just I'm
floored by.

Speaker 4 (50:52):
It every time.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Yeah, So, Carla, her part of the deal was knowing
Paul's preference, she made sure that Tammy remained a virgin
that any kind I'm assuming interfering with any kind of
date life that.

Speaker 4 (51:08):
That Tammy might have had at the time.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
But but she wanted to make sure that she preserved
her virginity until that moment that Paul could take it.

Speaker 4 (51:18):
Now.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
The first attempt, which is bad enough, during this this.

Speaker 6 (51:24):
This was not a one and done thing like there
were There was an attempt before, Yeah, the worst one.

Speaker 4 (51:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
So I think it was like July to twenty fourth,
so a summertime trip involving I guess it was a
family trip or whatever. But Carla laced Tammy's meal with
valum stolen from her workplace. From from Carla's workplace, yeah.

Speaker 7 (51:50):
The veterinary office. And she's still a veterinary attack at
this point.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
And but they didn't know how much to put in
it or whatever, and it didn't work because Tammy woke
up a few minutes later, pretty quick before Bernardo there
could rape her.

Speaker 7 (52:05):
So and I assume that just being a veterinary, a
tech like, of course, you wouldn't know dosages and everything.

Speaker 6 (52:11):
Based on waiter. Yeah, so she's just kind of guessing
at this point.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
Yeah, assuming so, because like I said, either way, it
didn't work, it wasn't near enough. Now the second attempt
comes much well, not much later, the same year, the
same year, in December. Was it twenty three or twenty fourth,
because I read it was on the I've.

Speaker 7 (52:31):
Heard it was a Christmas dinner. I've also heard it
was Christmas Eve. Yeah, it was close enough right there,
a day or two before.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
So it's like either twenty third, twenty fourth Christmas Eve
or the day before. It's a Christmas dinner at the
Homolka's family home. I'm assuming everybody's together, you know, the
typical thing.

Speaker 6 (52:49):
Typical Christmas family get together.

Speaker 4 (52:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
So here in the words of the case, and what
was said is that Carla describe this as gifting her
sister's virginity to Paul for Christmas.

Speaker 7 (53:07):
I'm sorry, Like I always have to pause there because
It's just that turns my stomach absolutely, like this is
her baby sister. Yeah, I just I cannot trap my
brain around this. I cannot make myself understand.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
Even if you take the age out of it, it's
your sister, your sister, older sister, youngester, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 4 (53:27):
Yeah, it's your sister. You're supposed to look out for
each other.

Speaker 6 (53:31):
Yeah, I just I can't make my brain comprehend that.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
So now again this is it just gets worse from here. Okay,
is this word you don't want to see? Rich got
that picture he can put up there, so you want
to wait on that?

Speaker 7 (53:51):
Will wait just a minute. We will go ahead and
go into the details of this crime, because I think
this was the first death attributed to both of them.

Speaker 6 (54:03):
But this one is a rough one. We do have
to go into some detail.

Speaker 7 (54:09):
And we do have a post warnm photo that we
are going to show because it just kind of goes
to what we're going to continue talking about. So if
if that's not something you want to see, if it's
not something you want to listen to, take your bathroom break,
go refresh or coffee, go refresh or drink, do something
right now, because it's it's about to get fairly dark and.

Speaker 4 (54:31):
Bump stock Barbie here. It's hard for her to read
these kind of accounts, So I'm gonna do it, but
so ficture this.

Speaker 2 (54:38):
All right, family get together, Christmas time, the most wonderful
time of the year. Okay, Now, the parents were in
the house. They were asleep upstairs in their room. Downstairs,
Paul and Carla spot Tammy's drink with sleeping pills and

(54:59):
this time it will enough and probably too much actually, yeah.
And once she was completely unconscious, they together Paul and
Darrow's sister Carla, undressed Tammy and Bernardo. Paul proceeded to
rape her while Carla held a rag soaked with the anesthetic.

Speaker 4 (55:22):
Yeah Halla, thing like.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
Horror field kind of uh over core form yeah, the
color form uh. Basically held that rag soaked in that
stuff over Tammy's nose and mouth and general yeah. Yeah,
and to make sure she stayed asleep. Well while the
rape and everything was going on, Tammy uh still unconscious,

(55:48):
she vomits and officiates on that vombit because he stops breathing.

Speaker 4 (55:54):
Uh well.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
Carla continues to hold her down, roser over tries to
clear her throat stuff like that. And then after failing
to revive Timmy, they realizing, old man, you know, she died.

Speaker 4 (56:07):
She choked to death.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
They realized they killed her during the rape, and after
failing to revive her, the couple dressed her back up,
moved her back into her room, cleaned her up, cleaned
up the evidence, and then after all that was done,

(56:31):
they called nine one one. Now we mentioned the chemical
burn Yeah we can.

Speaker 7 (56:38):
If Rick scott it, he can go in and put
her post mortem photo up because these chemical burns are severe. Yes,
this is not a gory photo, but it is a
post mortem photo.

Speaker 6 (56:48):
She is dead. But you can see the severity of
the burns on her face here.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
Yeah, so you see it there now, Tammy obviously has
this very visible chemical burn right there on her face.
Even though with that, her dance was still rue an
accident and to.

Speaker 7 (57:07):
That extent, I do not believe that they intended to
kill her. I don't think that that was their goal.
I think that that at least that part was accidental. Actually,
I don't think they intended for her to die.

Speaker 4 (57:19):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
Now at the funeral, this sick little bastard was caught stroke.
Paul was struck caught stroking Tammy's hair as she laid
in the open casket, and I think in nineteen ninety three.

Speaker 6 (57:36):
She was exusted.

Speaker 4 (57:37):
Yeah, they adzumed her. I guess for the evidence or whatever.

Speaker 7 (57:42):
These would have been well after the arrest, so they
would have you know, obviously Carl had been speaking at
this point, so they would know that Tammy is one
of their victims.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
So they so they assumed came and what happens when
they exumed her. They revealed that the couple had also
placed a photo of themselves of them selves in the
casket with her, Bernardo and well Paul and Carla. At
that point they moved to Port Dalhousie.

Speaker 7 (58:11):
Yeah, actually I did look up how to pronounce us
in Dalhousie.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
Okay, where they filmed themselves while role playing sexual encounters.

Speaker 4 (58:19):
Well they like to film, didn't they.

Speaker 7 (58:20):
Yeah, But you got to keep in mind this was
like the early nineties and everything were homemade videos and everything,
handheld recorders that everybody could use and do all this.

Speaker 6 (58:32):
That was very very popular. My dad was big into.

Speaker 7 (58:35):
This, Like I have so many home movies and everything
of my brother and I growing up.

Speaker 6 (58:39):
This was about that same time.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
Yeah, Now, family home videos are wonderful things if you
got them, watch them.

Speaker 6 (58:47):
These are not home videos you never want to see.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
Do some backups and keep your home videos. Great idea. Now,
this couple not only video tape their rates up to
this point, but after the death of ten, once they
moved to port now Halsie, they were videotaping themselves having
sex and their fantasy role playing was a Bernardo and Tammy.

(59:13):
Carla played the part of her own sister and even
wore Tammy's own clothing to reinforce that sick fantasy.

Speaker 7 (59:22):
Like I said, all of it is terrible, but for like,
this is just I don't even have the words to
describe how disgusting this kind of thing is like. Not
only to be complicit in your own sister's rape and
eventual death and everything gifting her to your boyfriend, I

(59:45):
can't even fathom that, but then to actually roleplay this
during sex and wear her own clothes.

Speaker 6 (59:52):
No, I cannot fathom this.

Speaker 2 (59:56):
No, It's the darkest, sickest, this grossest thing I could
think of.

Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
Beyond It's not the.

Speaker 6 (01:00:04):
Worst case we have discussed, but I mean, this one's
right on up there.

Speaker 8 (01:00:07):
For me.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
Carla may be one of the worst women I've ever
we've ever talked about.

Speaker 4 (01:00:11):
Yeah, and do you.

Speaker 6 (01:00:13):
Want to do a Women Who Kills series? At some points?

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
Are you going to bring up her working with the
policeing thing and had on food on that stuff later on?

Speaker 6 (01:00:21):
Well, of course, yeah, I mean we're gonna talk about
all that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
But the things that she was doing, plus what she
does later, Carl is not some sort of innocent person
that she is just as sick as as can or
Paul here.

Speaker 6 (01:00:35):
I mean, really and truly they're a matchmate in hell.

Speaker 4 (01:00:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:00:39):
I mean, if you want to talk about like soulmates, like,
there's a dark version of that too, I think in
these two worst ouldmates. Yeah, but I mean the attraction
for Paul Ernardo and everything to Tammy. He revealed during
an interview in two thousand and seven when he was
in custody. He said it did begin in July nineteen
ninety and again, I really, honestly don't think that they

(01:01:00):
intended for her to die, because they did have another
rape victim together that that survived and everything and was
so drugged up and everything that she didn't is like
she went home the next morning, didn't even know she
was raped. Yeah, So I don't think that they intended
for Tammy to die.

Speaker 4 (01:01:19):
Especial that's too close to home.

Speaker 7 (01:01:22):
And like, like we mentioned, I think her just being
a vet text, she doesn't know the dosages and everything.

Speaker 6 (01:01:27):
To make it, you know, enough to knock them out.

Speaker 7 (01:01:31):
But not so much as to kill them. Like, I
don't think that she had that kind of skill set
at all. So the first time didn't work, so she
just gave her a ship ton the next.

Speaker 6 (01:01:40):
Time and it killed her.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
Yeah, devinciation, I think. But I think the overdose of
the mess and probably probably what caused obomiting it is.

Speaker 7 (01:01:50):
I mean, that's very very common with with overdoses and everything.

Speaker 6 (01:01:54):
I mean, I hate to say it.

Speaker 7 (01:01:56):
I've lost multiple people growing up and everything that I
went to school with and whatnot. It weren't even intending
to kill themselves or anything. It's just that they took
so much stuff that they died in their sleep because
they asphyxiated in their own vomit, and nobody found them
till morning.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
But obviously if they didn't care that they killed her, Yeah,
because they obviously didn't care about her. But I do
think that was unintentional.

Speaker 7 (01:02:25):
Yeah, I mean, no, This is not premeditated murder, I
don't think, but at the very very least, I would
say manslaughter on this one could potentially be second degree
if you have a good attorney. But I do want
to pause here. I'm not trying to sensationalize anything. I mean, really,

(01:02:45):
what does it say about you when you are allowing
the death someone's so close to you, like your own
flesh and blood, your own sibling, Like, not only are
you saying that it's okay to rape them, and you're
going to facilitate this by drugging her and making sure
she's still a virgin for you because you know you
want a virgin.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
And basically holding her there with the rag on her
face while the rate's happening.

Speaker 4 (01:03:11):
Yeah, I mean you're seeing this happen, You're actively Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:03:15):
Carlo's complicity here was woven into the very fabric of
total and complete obedience.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
Right, Okay, Now we mentioned the code dependency earlier. Would
that fall into codependency too?

Speaker 6 (01:03:30):
It would?

Speaker 7 (01:03:31):
And this is not actually something that's like in the
DSM five. I don't think it's actually an official mental disorder,
but code dependency is a learned behavior, and it's characterized
by an excessive reliance on other people for emotional and
self worth validation. It leads to unhealthy relationship patterns, as
we are very very clearly seen. Usually it most commonly

(01:03:56):
involves enabling another's destructive behaviors, Like we talk about, you know,
people who have like.

Speaker 6 (01:04:02):
Alcoholic family members.

Speaker 7 (01:04:05):
I mean, if you're buying them the alcohol that's enabling them,
This is a codependent relationship. You neglect your own personal
needs here, and Carla Barry obviously was because this man
is basically telling her the worst things about her all
the time, making her believe it, so she's not even
thinking about herself at this point. She's only thinking about
what makes him happy, but what she can do to

(01:04:29):
please him.

Speaker 4 (01:04:30):
So the whole her existence is to please the other.

Speaker 7 (01:04:35):
Yeah, I mean, this is extreme difficulty with boundaries and
self esteem here at this point. And again it's not
a formal diagnosis like in the DSM five, but codependency
is widely recognized as a significant issue that impacts mental health,
and we see that glaringly I think in this case,

(01:04:56):
like it is on full display. We've got this abusive
man and everything, and this woman who's trying to do
anything she can to please him, to keep him happy, right,
to keep him with her because she doesn't want him
to break up with her.

Speaker 6 (01:05:08):
She doesn't want to end up alone.

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
And I think, like I mentioned earlier, she may have
learned some of that from her mom too, because obviously
not to this level, but the husband was abusive, brought
in a third party, and she still was at stay.

Speaker 6 (01:05:23):
Yeah. This this is absolutely a learned behavior.

Speaker 7 (01:05:27):
Like she did not get to this point with Paul
Bernardo on you know, upon being of their relationship. This
was something that has been her from childhood, right. So
I mean again, like I said, the match made in hell,
like he found the perfect mate because the other girls

(01:05:49):
that he was dating and everything, they were like, this
is not okay, and they didn't.

Speaker 6 (01:05:53):
Stand for it and they left him.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
Like I said, the ninety nine went away with that
one stage. Yeah, and he got his partner Inda Win.
Now that also kind of harkens me back a little bit,
makes me think of the Toy box Killer too, you know.

Speaker 7 (01:06:07):
State well he had he had specifically the one woman
David Parker died.

Speaker 4 (01:06:13):
I think there was two.

Speaker 6 (01:06:17):
There was one that stuck around.

Speaker 7 (01:06:19):
The main one and she actually even got a light sentence.
I think she got out on parole or something too.

Speaker 2 (01:06:25):
Got a lot longer than than what we're going.

Speaker 4 (01:06:29):
Yeah, yeah, she she got paroled out.

Speaker 7 (01:06:32):
And I do think that there is something maybe we
can talk about one night on one.

Speaker 6 (01:06:37):
Of the shows about how the US.

Speaker 7 (01:06:41):
Justice system, how they treat men and women offenders, because
I mean, there is a big like golf there between
how they're treated for doing the same things. So I
think that would be at least worth looking into, and
you know, maybe having like a little.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
Friendly debate on well, look, you women can get away
with murder, but we make twenty two cents an hour
more than y'all do.

Speaker 7 (01:07:08):
I don't know, not in prison, you don't. You might
make twenty two more license plates than we do though.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
Yeah, so the the rates to this point have been escalating. Obviously,
they're they're filming them, they're together there, say what you want,
she's participating, and.

Speaker 6 (01:07:27):
Then yeah, she's completely in on.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
This, and then you got the death in December, Yeah,
nineteen ninety. Now do you think that death is kind
of what kicks off this next level?

Speaker 6 (01:07:42):
I don't know, because.

Speaker 7 (01:07:45):
It seemed like Paul was so in charge there that
maybe there are other deaths that never got.

Speaker 6 (01:07:50):
Attributed to him.

Speaker 7 (01:07:52):
He was able to cover up, and that's how he
knew to clean up the scene, to redress her, to
put her back in her bed, to do all this
stuff before he called down one one.

Speaker 6 (01:08:02):
Like I would say, this was not his first radio.

Speaker 4 (01:08:05):
But I'm talking about them together. There's no together.

Speaker 7 (01:08:09):
Yeah, that's the first one that we know of it.
I think that before Tammy. I don't think that. Yeah,
before Tammy for sure. Uh. The only other one once
afterwards were after Tammy.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
Yeah, and now Tammy being their first death, first death,
and we're just we don't know just everything else speculation,
We're going to say Tammy's their first death.

Speaker 6 (01:08:35):
Yeah, them as a killing rocket.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
So we're gonna go with Tammy is number one. Now
we know that they've done the role playing afterwards, so
they and that's on film.

Speaker 4 (01:08:49):
So this is.

Speaker 7 (01:08:51):
One hundred sexual sadism because obviously since they're sexually role
playing this, they quite literally got off on it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:59):
Yeah, and that's why I'm wondering if that's why escalates
to the nets to what they start doing now, well you.

Speaker 7 (01:09:06):
Always see I mean, and we'll talk about patterns of
escalation later. But that's so extraordinarily common with these kind
of killers.

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
Yeah, that first one unintended, but they're like, hey, I
like that. That added something to it. So it starts
to go going from there. And reason I'm saying is
because in June of the following year, nineteen hundred and
ninety one, Leslie Mahafi I think aids fourteen, she disappears,

(01:09:37):
you know, the missing person type thing.

Speaker 4 (01:09:39):
Parents called in.

Speaker 6 (01:09:40):
And nobody knew what happened to her, where she went.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
Fourteen year old Leslie is just gone. They do, the
whole community's out searching for I know, at one point
they said that they's expecting around five hundred people to
show up to help, and you see the videos of people.

Speaker 4 (01:10:00):
Eyeing up in the line and they walked.

Speaker 6 (01:10:01):
Across to the grid pattern as they searched.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
Well, this community had over twenty two hundred people show up.
I'm just making and they had over twenty two hundred
people show up to help. So I mean this kid
was loved. Yeah, and again fourteen year old the father
was on the news doing the call out asking for

(01:10:26):
So you got.

Speaker 7 (01:10:26):
To think that some of these people helping search and
everything probably didn't know the child.

Speaker 6 (01:10:29):
If a child in.

Speaker 7 (01:10:30):
Our community went missing, even if we didn't know them,
we're going to do whatever we.

Speaker 6 (01:10:34):
Can to help.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
I know you wouldn't, right, And that's what I'm saying
is it was very public because the father was all
over the news. Yeah, so this gets eyes on the situation. Now,
days after this of searching and all that, her body
is eventually found in a ditch.

Speaker 4 (01:10:58):
Toss aside along the road.

Speaker 2 (01:11:00):
They said it is a place where people commonly throw
out trash, and they that's where they found their body.

Speaker 7 (01:11:06):
Well, that goes to show you the mentality of the
people that we talk about, these cases that we talk about.
They don't see their fellow men as a person. They
see them as an object to be used and thrown away.

Speaker 4 (01:11:17):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
And reason, like I said, reason I want to bring
up the father and making this very visible disappearance and
death is because the day they found Leslie in the
ditch was the same day that Paul and Carly were
married on their wedding. So you see these pictures of
where they're in there. He's into touch, he's in the

(01:11:41):
wedding gown and they're all happy, kissing and all that
kind of stuff.

Speaker 7 (01:11:44):
And Rick's actually got a photo of them and like
their wedding attire.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
Yeah, it's your typical wedding look, yeah, you see that
happiness going on. And then right here at the same
time there found the body this fourteen year old has.

Speaker 6 (01:11:57):
Been missing that they raped and killed.

Speaker 4 (01:12:00):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:12:01):
And now that was in June of nineteen ninety one,
so there's a big break here. I'm assuming there was
other rapes going on during this year time, because in
April of nineteen ninety two they abduct and murder Christian French.
Now they filmed this one with christin, they filmed the torture,

(01:12:27):
They film the whole thing. The key thing that some
of the prosecutors say is that on video they did
not have Christian blindfolded. So the prosecutors see this as
a sign that they meant to kill her from the start.

Speaker 6 (01:12:41):
Oh and I would absolutely one agree with that.

Speaker 7 (01:12:44):
Like, they didn't care that she saw their faces because
she was never going to be able to tell anybody
about it. She was never going to be able to
describe them, she was never going to be able to talk.
And that's what they intended exactly. They wanted to see
her fear.

Speaker 2 (01:12:57):
Well, you see that in yes, they wanted to see
if because I was gonna say, you see that in
movies too, where when they take the blindfold off or
they take off their mask and the bitch that can
see their faces they know, well it's over now.

Speaker 6 (01:13:09):
Yeah they're going to kill me.

Speaker 2 (01:13:10):
But I think number one, they didn't. They knew they
was gonna kill her, so they was playing with her.
They wanted that, but they also wanted to see that
fear in her face. They didn't want that blindfold of
covering up their money shots.

Speaker 6 (01:13:21):
You know, say the eyes they always say, you know,
the windows to the soul.

Speaker 7 (01:13:24):
That's where if anybody asked you, like, how do you
think I'm feeling, the first place we look is into
their eyes. The eyes are going to tell you everything.
So they wanted to see her scared. They wanted to
make her.

Speaker 4 (01:13:37):
Scared, right, So.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
Looking at this this, like I said, I have to
separate myself from the age of these kids because of
our daughter's age. But here's what we're kind of examined
on THEO. So this is kind of what I look
at on this case exactly. It's not necessarily the gore,
but the dynamics, Like we got a man escalating into
murder a woman drawn deeper. Apparently now the pair of them,

(01:14:07):
they feed off each other, Paula, Like you said about
the codependency and all that, Paula's I'm not Paul, Paul's
fantasies fuel Carla's compliance. That's saying, Paula, Paul's fantasy are
fueling carlos compliance, and Carla's compliance and sociopathic tendencies amplifies

(01:14:29):
Paul's power and control.

Speaker 6 (01:14:31):
Because they were.

Speaker 7 (01:14:32):
Saying, you know, the whole dominator anything in her childhood
that there are arguments that she was showing sociopathic tendencies
in childhood too.

Speaker 2 (01:14:40):
Yes, So I mean they're like the perfect storm together
as oh yeah, they become a monstrous together, like a
synergy of psychopathy and sadism all balled into one. And
it's like I said when we say they fed off
each other and they fuelled each other the same time.

Speaker 7 (01:15:02):
I mean, think of it, Okay, Like you and I
like you have encouraged this passion of mine to like
even do this show, Like I've always dreamed of having
the true crime podcast because it's always been a fascination
of mine. But you encourage me in a healthy way
to like let me have this outlet and everything, and
you discuss these cases with me and everything like we
normally do. Like you were never in a true crime

(01:15:24):
before me.

Speaker 6 (01:15:26):
It was just never really a big interest of yours
in passing.

Speaker 4 (01:15:29):
Not near, but.

Speaker 6 (01:15:30):
Yeah, like nowhere near. I don't think really anybody is
kind of close to other than.

Speaker 4 (01:15:37):
Toms and Edmund kemper.

Speaker 1 (01:15:40):
To be fairy studying up so he knows what to
watch out for.

Speaker 7 (01:15:45):
I mean, he's learning from me too, But we encourage
each other in these healthy ways and everything, like his
passion like to help the tiny tower like build her
first car and everything, like I encouraged him to do this,
and I actually want to learn with them, so I
know how to you know, work on my own vehicle
if he's not around or something.

Speaker 6 (01:16:05):
You know.

Speaker 7 (01:16:05):
These are healthy ways to like feed off each other
and encourage each other.

Speaker 6 (01:16:09):
And they just didn't have this well, I mean, they had.

Speaker 4 (01:16:14):
It and it was just yeah, that's what I was
going to say. I was going to add to that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
It's like they're the perfect match for each other because
they they had what the other person needed and wanted.
But in the darkest ways possible.

Speaker 7 (01:16:29):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean it's it's just it's absolutely ridiculous
in my mind because again I keep going back to that.
I just can't make my brain work that way. I
can't make myself understand.

Speaker 2 (01:16:42):
That, because, like I said, Paul's escalation would have come
no matter what.

Speaker 4 (01:16:48):
But I think that Carla was just throwing gas on
that fire.

Speaker 7 (01:16:53):
Yeah, and he fueled her escalation as well. I mean
I don't sure she had, you know, maybe the socio
cathic tendencies and couldn't really connect with other people in
a healthy way, But I don't know that she would
have ever escalated to violence the way.

Speaker 6 (01:17:09):
That she did.

Speaker 4 (01:17:10):
Yeah, we don't know, but I mean, you know, we keep.

Speaker 6 (01:17:14):
Talking about escalation.

Speaker 7 (01:17:16):
Yeah, so Paul escalated from things like arson in his childhood.

Speaker 4 (01:17:21):
That we know of.

Speaker 7 (01:17:22):
Then onto that escalated and do violent fantasies. Then those
fantasies escalated into actions because remember he was first known
as the Scarborough rapists, Like they were already looking for
this man before any deaths happened. Carla was even quoted
as saying, quote, he was the happy rapist.

Speaker 2 (01:17:41):
Ye.

Speaker 7 (01:17:42):
And then those rapes eventually escalated to outright and murder.
And I say this every single time, because this is
the common like psychology of these types of serial killers
and everything. The fantasy always ends up never being enough,
so you have to take it a step further each
time to get that same like high, to get that

(01:18:03):
same fix every time.

Speaker 6 (01:18:06):
So like, yeah, you know, you start peeping.

Speaker 7 (01:18:08):
In the ladies windows and everything, and that kind of
gets you, gets you off and everything for a little while,
but then eventually that's not enough. So now you start
breaking into their house and taking their stuff, taking underwear
or something, or watching them while you're inside their house.
Then eventually that's not enough, so now you've got to
actually put your hands on them. Like it always is

(01:18:30):
going to escalate. It never stops at one at one point.
They're never happy just peeping, They're never happy just stealing underwear.

Speaker 6 (01:18:39):
Like with the shoe fetish killer I can't remember his
name now.

Speaker 2 (01:18:48):
Yeah, escalation always have It's like this is their drug,
and once that high starts wearing off, they got to.

Speaker 6 (01:18:55):
Get acclimated to that high. Then now you have to
take more and more to get the same feeling each time.

Speaker 4 (01:19:02):
Yep.

Speaker 7 (01:19:03):
It just it always works that way. Like we have
not covered a case where the fantasy has not just
stopped at a fantasy at all.

Speaker 6 (01:19:11):
It has always escalated one step further and one step
further until they finally start murdering.

Speaker 7 (01:19:16):
Yep, so well, like Daniel said, in June ninety one,
Leslie Mahaffey disappears. Days later, her body's found in a ditch.
And then on April sixteenth of ninety two, Bernardo and
Hamoka they abduct fifteen year old kristin French as she
comes out of her school, the Holy Cross Catholic Secondary School.

Speaker 6 (01:19:38):
And there were a number of witnesses to this one.

Speaker 7 (01:19:41):
So see, this escalation is fantasy like it wasn't enough
like to just get away with the first kidnapping of Leslie.
Now they're escalating the situation.

Speaker 2 (01:19:50):
Now they're doing it in front of witnesses, and they're
in Bolden too, because they've gotten away with it for
so long.

Speaker 6 (01:19:55):
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 7 (01:19:57):
And they raped and tortured this fifteen year old g
for three days before allegedly strangling her with the same
cord they used to kill Mahappy. But Paul did claim
later that Carla murdered Kristen with the rubber mallet that
she used to guard the victims while they were.

Speaker 6 (01:20:13):
Out getting food.

Speaker 7 (01:20:15):
So they kind of turned on each other there and
was saying like, I didn't kill Christen. Yeah she did,
and she was like, no, I didn't kill christ and
he did.

Speaker 2 (01:20:24):
I would wonder what the criminal what's it called the
bones specialists if they looked at was the death strangulation
was a death blunt force trauma because those are two
very different things.

Speaker 7 (01:20:38):
Yeah, but keep in mind the torture and everything leading
up to that was probably a lot of physical torture too,
so they probably couldn't separate anything specifically to the cause
of death.

Speaker 4 (01:20:48):
Yep. And they said they kept her for three days,
so you know it was probably very prolonged. Poor thing.

Speaker 7 (01:20:56):
I mean during her captivity too. And this is kind
of an interesting thing to note. Yeah, we mentioned it too.
She was never blindfolded. This I think was the first
one that they really full on intended to gil. This
was premeditated one that she was never blindfolded. She was

(01:21:18):
forced to ingest large amounts of alcohol. They forced her
to watch the recording of Leslie Mahappy's rate and act
in a submissive manner to Paul, but she actually later
became confrontational by the end, called him a bastard, which
that's familiar to him.

Speaker 4 (01:21:37):
Yeah, she.

Speaker 2 (01:21:39):
Played along, I think for survival, but towards the end,
I think she finally just had enough.

Speaker 4 (01:21:43):
She couldn't.

Speaker 6 (01:21:44):
I think that when she realized they were never going
to let her go, she finally just dropped the act.

Speaker 2 (01:21:48):
And well, I think calling him the bastard, just like
his mother did, might have been the end for you know.

Speaker 7 (01:21:53):
Yeah, she also told him, I don't know how your
wife can stand being around you.

Speaker 4 (01:21:58):
So again just the breaking down.

Speaker 6 (01:22:01):
Yeah, he the type.

Speaker 7 (01:22:03):
Of person that pathology that he had this need to dominate,
utterly dominating these girls and women and everything. No, he
is not going to tolerate them talking.

Speaker 4 (01:22:13):
Back like that.

Speaker 7 (01:22:15):
That kind of thing is like cardinals send to him.
And because of this, she is severely beaten before her death.
So that's why I think that they couldn't determine a
cause of death, like whether she was bludgeon with a
mallet like Paul said, or whether she.

Speaker 2 (01:22:32):
Was strangled like they probably was doing both, and then
at that point she died.

Speaker 4 (01:22:38):
At some point during.

Speaker 6 (01:22:39):
This now and I mean again.

Speaker 7 (01:22:42):
Every single time I think it can't get any worse,
it does because the couple for the second time, has
now left the body in their home while they dined
with the family with Carlos. Like Leslie, she was downstairs
in the basement the entire time while they were eating,
and they later dismembered her.

Speaker 2 (01:23:01):
I think, yeah, yeah, because they said then he use
a chainsaw or something. I mean brutally this, but yeah,
because it's like happy family again. It's like back at
Christmas time, sitting around.

Speaker 7 (01:23:12):
Table stairs in the basement is a dead girl, like
it's unimaginable. They later washed her body, cut her hair
and they threw her remains into a ditch in Burlington,
which actually was near the cemetery where Leslie Maffey was
ended up buried. So Bernardo is interviewed by two police

(01:23:35):
officers a month after French's murder, but they considered him
an unlikely suspect, even after he admitted to having been
interviewed previously in connection to the Scarborough rapes.

Speaker 2 (01:23:45):
Again, that has got to be his looks. It's got
to be his charm. There's something up. That's why they
keep looking at him.

Speaker 7 (01:23:53):
But they there are so many things that should have
led to his arrest well before it got to this.

Speaker 4 (01:23:58):
Point, but they keep looking away for some reason.

Speaker 7 (01:24:00):
Yeah, and we we don't have any information, like obviously
we can't interview these cops or anything to ask them.

Speaker 6 (01:24:06):
What were you thinking here?

Speaker 7 (01:24:09):
But after this, Bernardo and Humilkov solicited to change their
legal name to Teal t E A L. E.

Speaker 4 (01:24:17):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (01:24:18):
And do you know where they got that name? That
was the last name of a serial killer in a
nineteen ninety eight or nineteen eighty eight movie called Criminal Law.

Speaker 4 (01:24:26):
Oh yeah, that's pretty.

Speaker 6 (01:24:28):
So I'm sorry.

Speaker 7 (01:24:29):
Like all of the signs, all of these red flags,
like you know, I always end up thinking Dory in
Finding Nemo, you know, she's like, oh wait, little red
flags going up. Yeah, all of this they're everywhere, but
like it seems like nobody wanted.

Speaker 6 (01:24:46):
To act on them.

Speaker 4 (01:24:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:49):
Now you said that they changed their name to Teal.
Apparently it either it either took or they just she
took it on. Either way, it was Lee changed Nott.
But Tammy today goes by the last name Till carlad
I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (01:25:06):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
Carla uses the last name Till until she got remarried.
Later on you'll find out she does.

Speaker 3 (01:25:13):
Yea.

Speaker 6 (01:25:15):
So now we're kind of going into.

Speaker 4 (01:25:19):
While we're at about ninety two.

Speaker 2 (01:25:22):
I think, now, so this is after they've killed their
second or the third girl at this point now, Chris, Yeah,
so we're moving into late nineteen ninety two. At this point,
the Scarborough rapist investigation finally pins that DNA from way
back when to Paul, which causes a lover's spat between

(01:25:50):
him and Carla, which it goes pretty dark.

Speaker 7 (01:25:55):
We've got Rick, he's got the photos of Carla after
this lover spat.

Speaker 2 (01:25:59):
Yeah, So she gets beaten with a flashlight reportedly, and
she flees their home, lies to her family. I guess
she goes back to the Holcombs family and she spends
all these lives and stuff, and Paul is arrested on
February nineteen hundred and ninety three. And then Carla, while

(01:26:25):
all this is going on, talking about lies, she immediately
cuts a plea deal and everything that we know, the
investigators don't know, the prosecutors don't know yet, but it
comes out later and it's still frustrating. But her plea
deal that she cuts, basically she has twelve years in

(01:26:45):
prison and it's changed for her testimony, and Bernardo winds up.
He wants up get in life. When they finally do
arrest him and bring him in for trial.

Speaker 6 (01:26:55):
Yeah, it was December twenty seventh.

Speaker 7 (01:26:58):
Paul savagely beat Carlo with a flashlight, leaving her obviously bruised.
She has a broken rib at this point in two
black eyes, Yeah, very very severe black eyes.

Speaker 6 (01:27:11):
According to the picture, Like.

Speaker 4 (01:27:13):
Oh yeah, they're solid black.

Speaker 6 (01:27:14):
I mean it's like it looks like makeup.

Speaker 4 (01:27:16):
Honestly, when I.

Speaker 2 (01:27:17):
Saw the photo, I thought it was fake. Yeah, because
it looked it just looks stake to me. It's so
black and beating up.

Speaker 7 (01:27:24):
Now amazingly, like this happened. The beating happened on December
twenty seventh. She actually goes back to work on January
fourth of nineteen ninety three. Now now we're into nineteen
ninety three, she tries to pass her injuries off as
a result of a car accident.

Speaker 2 (01:27:38):
Yeah, well, I mean I can see that, you know. Oh,
I just ran into it, ran into the door, and
I said, most fell.

Speaker 7 (01:27:45):
Down something like that. You always hear that with you know,
the battered women.

Speaker 2 (01:27:50):
And honestly, I mean again, I would have bought it
car accident, okay.

Speaker 6 (01:27:56):
Rough, So yeah, that I mean at tracks, it's not
a bad.

Speaker 4 (01:27:59):
Lie and she's obviously good at lying.

Speaker 7 (01:28:02):
Yeah, but her coworkers did not believe her, and they
actually are the ones who alert her parents.

Speaker 4 (01:28:07):
Carla's parents, Yes, okay.

Speaker 7 (01:28:09):
They insisted on taking her to a hospital.

Speaker 4 (01:28:11):
Oh so the co workers is like, not on all
your husband did this.

Speaker 7 (01:28:14):
Well, you gotta keep in mind like his tendency to
beerate his women in public and everything. Yeah, they probably
had these inklings about that for a very long time
as long as she worked there.

Speaker 2 (01:28:26):
Probably I can say the snaffs not a honey, we
ain't gonna buy that.

Speaker 7 (01:28:33):
So yeah, like the coworkers actually end up contacting her parents.

Speaker 4 (01:28:37):
Good for them, and the parents.

Speaker 7 (01:28:39):
Take her to the hospital. And at the hospital, Carla
claims now to be the batter's fouse, and she filed
charges against Paul. So he is arrested at this point,
and by sheer coincidence, while he's under arrest for this assault,
the samples, the DNA samples that he gave before two
years ago, had been tested right around that time and

(01:29:01):
they positively identified him as the Scarborough rapists.

Speaker 4 (01:29:05):
So what I say.

Speaker 6 (01:29:06):
Earlier dominos are falling into place.

Speaker 4 (01:29:08):
So what I would saying earlier, I got a little
bit ahead of it.

Speaker 8 (01:29:11):
Yeah, So.

Speaker 2 (01:29:12):
Her being beaten up and being going to the hospital
and that's where she contacts the police and thus sets off.

Speaker 7 (01:29:19):
The hold and they that's when, again by sheer coincidence,
to find out that the DNA connects him and ties
him to the Scarborough rapist case.

Speaker 4 (01:29:29):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (01:29:30):
So after they split up after the beating and everything,
had like the.

Speaker 7 (01:29:35):
Devil working to like bring them together, you know. But
then God's like, no.

Speaker 6 (01:29:41):
No, know what, I'm gonna let this continue. So He's like, yeah,
let's be at the beginning.

Speaker 4 (01:29:44):
But that's the way it always works out.

Speaker 2 (01:29:46):
So but while all this was going on, excuse me,
While all this was going on, Carla moves to to
Brompton with an aunt and an uncle and told them
that Paul was both the Scarsborough rapist and the killer
of Leslie McAfee.

Speaker 6 (01:30:05):
Happy.

Speaker 2 (01:30:07):
So Carla at this point realizes, hey, the trap is
about the spring. I gotta take care of myself, and
so she moves in with this aunt and uncle. She
starts laying basically the deal. She starts working this deal
and laying the groundwork so she can cut a deal
with the prosecution, and in February in February of that year,

(01:30:33):
she sought full immunity for from prosecution in Shane's for
her cooperation. She was gonna give them everything to get away,
you know, to say her on hide, but that was
denied thankfully.

Speaker 4 (01:30:49):
Now this is still pretty bad.

Speaker 2 (01:30:51):
But Carla was given an an offer on the table.
And again remember this is before the prosecution saw all
the video tapes. So instead of immunity, she was given
a week to accept a plea deal saying twelve year
prison term for manslaughter or they was gonna she was

(01:31:14):
gonna have to face charges for the three murders, one
of them being her own sister, Tammy, whose case had
just been reopened.

Speaker 6 (01:31:24):
So remember in nineteen ninety three is when they exumed hamming.

Speaker 2 (01:31:26):
Yes her, Yeah, her case has just been reopened, which
would lead to her being a zo as well as
some of to other crimes.

Speaker 7 (01:31:33):
So I say, you got to keep in mind they're
going to tag on like rape, assault, everything else.

Speaker 2 (01:31:39):
Well, Carla knows what's on those tapes. Yeah, so she
jumps on this twelve year prison term. She accepts that
plea deal because she knows what's coming or what possibly
could become. So she takes the deal. She testifies against
Paul in the trial, which eventually takes by a nineteen

(01:32:00):
ninety five. Again, the wills of justice are very slow,
and on September first and nineteen hundred ninety five, Paul
has sentenced to life in prison without parole for at
least twenty five years, which is pretty standard.

Speaker 6 (01:32:17):
I say, I mean that in Canada, that would mean
like he serves twenty five years and then he could
be eligible.

Speaker 2 (01:32:22):
Yeah, he has to serve a minimum of twenty five
before he's elegant, right, not that he's going to get
pro just before he's elegant. And he Now what's interesting
that he has kept segregated from the other inmates because
of threats made to him.

Speaker 4 (01:32:38):
And on one occasion, in.

Speaker 2 (01:32:40):
Like nineteen ninety nine, a group of five prisoners tried
to storm the segregated area and they had to be
dispersed by right polics. So they in ninety nine they
were planning to go in there and getting him.

Speaker 7 (01:32:51):
Keep in mind, like they're in prison, there is kind
of a hierarchy among the criminals, and the ones who
hurt children are the lowest and low way they have
a bulls off on their back yea constantly, So they
had to move this man into solitary basically to protect him.

Speaker 6 (01:33:08):
And then these prisoners still try to get to him.

Speaker 7 (01:33:10):
Yep, Like what he did was so bad that they
still try to storm the anchoria.

Speaker 6 (01:33:17):
Oh that's just that's amazing to me.

Speaker 4 (01:33:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:21):
And apparently while he was in prison, he wasn't aves
He'll played the golden boy card, I'm sure, but it
wasn't fooling everybody because he had the official status as
quote a dangerous offender and it is considered unlikely that
he will ever be granted parole.

Speaker 7 (01:33:44):
Thankfully, Yeah, thankfully, because this is not the type of
pathology from a person that's ever going to stop. He
gets back out, he's going to go back to this Yep.
He's going to start raping again. He's going to start
hurting other people now.

Speaker 2 (01:33:57):
Unfortunately, the twenty five years rolls around, he does not
get paroled, which is good, but he is transferred to
a medium security prison in twenty twenty three, and that
sparked some pretty big outrage and controversy there in Canada too,
and the Canadians expressed concerns about his safety and the

(01:34:19):
potential for further incidents. Given his status as a high
profile offender. So you have one side saying that, hey,
there's no way he should be going to minimum security.

Speaker 4 (01:34:30):
Because that's too easy on him.

Speaker 2 (01:34:32):
He deserves worse, And he got the other bleeding heart
liberal folks up there saying, no, the minimum security facility
isn't fair because he may get hurt by other inmates.

Speaker 7 (01:34:46):
Yeah, I'm sorry, Like, like, I'll just go ahead and
say it. If the other inmates get to him, I
don't care what they do to him. I'm not losing
any sleep over it, and I ain't gonna shed a
tear for him after did the age of his victims
and everything, like, absolutely not.

Speaker 2 (01:35:03):
And the fact that up to this point he's show
known real he has shown no real, uh.

Speaker 4 (01:35:10):
Remorse than anything about it either.

Speaker 6 (01:35:12):
Well, he doesn't feel that.

Speaker 7 (01:35:13):
I think that he's fully one of those entitled type
of people that thinks I can do no wrong, like
I can do whatever I want to do, just have
to suck it up and.

Speaker 6 (01:35:23):
Deal with it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:23):
He's the worst of the worst. He's a rich, white
white male. I mean, of course he's gonna be privileged
and horrible.

Speaker 7 (01:35:32):
I mean, this really doesn't do anything to like Negate
that stereotype. But okay, Carlos plea deal was also really
really criticized by Canadian society.

Speaker 6 (01:35:44):
Y'all are killing me with the Kennedy and thing.

Speaker 4 (01:35:47):
Yeah, That's what I'm saying is like.

Speaker 2 (01:35:51):
They were lots of controversy around Paul and his prison centers,
but there's just as much around Carlo.

Speaker 7 (01:36:00):
I do have a reason. I can tell you why
they gave her that deal. Well, I well, I'll touch on.

Speaker 6 (01:36:07):
That a little bit more later probably, but the like
the original defense attorney and everything said on the videos
disclosed them. He knew that he actually.

Speaker 7 (01:36:17):
Was tried for like malpractice or whatever it's called for them,
like legal malpractice or something.

Speaker 3 (01:36:24):
But he was.

Speaker 6 (01:36:24):
Actually acquitted of that.

Speaker 7 (01:36:26):
Oh yeah, but everybody, like even the grand jury or
their version of it in Canada, said that had we
had those videos, that deal would have never been on
the table.

Speaker 2 (01:36:35):
Oh yeah, they he had the videos before. That said,
she made the deal before all those videos.

Speaker 6 (01:36:41):
Were her attorney, and he knew about the.

Speaker 2 (01:36:45):
Videos, so that's why they pushed that deal her in
the attorney. The prosecutors accepted the deal because they had
no idea.

Speaker 6 (01:36:53):
They never disclosed the videos.

Speaker 2 (01:36:56):
Well, the videos do come out, they do come out later,
and that's of the plea deal.

Speaker 4 (01:37:01):
They can't attact anything on them.

Speaker 7 (01:37:03):
I mean, I guess they have their own version of
way double jeopardy. She can't be retried for the same crime,
you know. So Yeah, they have to kind of stick
by that deal yep, which I do not know how
they acquitted that attorney at all.

Speaker 2 (01:37:16):
Yeah, it was, uh, what's it called when they obstruction
of justice?

Speaker 4 (01:37:24):
That's why he's.

Speaker 6 (01:37:25):
Acquitted of this. How do you get acquitted of that
when you literally.

Speaker 7 (01:37:29):
Like everybody knows that you have this video, but you
never said a word so that the prosecution wouldn't get
it and give her a harsher sentence. That's obstruction of
justice by any stretch of any definition.

Speaker 4 (01:37:40):
Yeah, but he gets acquitted with it.

Speaker 6 (01:37:43):
I don't understand.

Speaker 4 (01:37:44):
Maybe he was a blond haired white guy too.

Speaker 7 (01:37:47):
Yeah that Like, like I said, the prosecutors, even the
grand jury said that if they had known about the
tapes and what they showed, they never would.

Speaker 6 (01:37:55):
Have given her that deal.

Speaker 4 (01:37:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:37:57):
But and like I said, he didn't withhold it throughout
the entire our trial. Yeah, he held withheld things while
the deal is being made. And once they accepted it
and the trial goes in, that's when some of the
taps come out. And what's crazy is on some of
the takes she is not holding the camera. She's actively
involved in something.

Speaker 6 (01:38:13):
That she is actually raping these girls.

Speaker 4 (01:38:16):
Yes, but because of her plea deal, they don't go
back and go after it.

Speaker 7 (01:38:21):
Yeah, and again that's what I mean. This is infuriating,
Like I like, I wish Paul had got the death penalty,
and I want to say that he should go out
the same way he killed some of these girls. You know,
I don't think there should be any such thing as
cool and unusual punishment because what he did was cruel
and unusual.

Speaker 6 (01:38:41):
For sure, he should go out the same way. But
I'm equally.

Speaker 7 (01:38:45):
Infuriated because Carla actually gets released from president in two
thousand and five.

Speaker 4 (01:38:50):
Oh yeah, well that was part of her deal. I
mean twelve years.

Speaker 7 (01:38:54):
She actually moves to a French Caribbean island in an
attempt to avoid media scrutiny.

Speaker 2 (01:39:00):
In two thousand and seven, yeah, chats when she changes
her name to Leanne uh tell, yeah, it's Lene till first,
and then she gets married.

Speaker 6 (01:39:11):
I cannot pronounce this guy's name. At all. I'm just
gonna say, like Terry.

Speaker 9 (01:39:16):
But it's who was the brother of her lawyer.

Speaker 4 (01:39:23):
Alisa wasn't a lawyer.

Speaker 6 (01:39:25):
Well, I mean she does have a history of want
to keep it in the family. Yeah, according to.

Speaker 4 (01:39:32):
Her own words for sure.

Speaker 6 (01:39:33):
Dark humor there. But they actually have three children.

Speaker 4 (01:39:37):
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:39:40):
She did her time, Now was it enough? I don't
think so. I don't think anybody would a reasonable understanding
of this.

Speaker 7 (01:39:48):
Twelve years nowhere near what she deserved for this, not
in the least little bit.

Speaker 6 (01:39:55):
Like I'm pissed about that.

Speaker 2 (01:39:57):
So what we have is she gets to twelve of years,
she does not get any opportunity for early release, right,
so she does her full twelve and but she's she's
done her time and they have to let her out.
So they do that, and I said, she comes out

(01:40:18):
as she changes legally changes her name to Leeann Till
and then she marries this Morales guy. And uh so
it's Liam bordelays right, If.

Speaker 7 (01:40:30):
That's how you pronounce his name again, I'll probably butcher
all these names of we're southern. I mean no, I mean,
I apologize for it, but it is what it is.

Speaker 2 (01:40:38):
So you know, like typical of front Port's friends at storytelling.
It doesn't end at the sentence because we could stop
now if we wanted to. But we you know, we
dive as deep as possible into every aspect of the
crimes and the people who commit them, so that we
can get answers about how one human being could do

(01:41:00):
such awful things to others. In this case, two of them.

Speaker 6 (01:41:03):
Three well if you count the rage like countless women.

Speaker 4 (01:41:08):
No, I'm talking about the two humans could do other
to other people. So we got.

Speaker 6 (01:41:13):
Call things were done to the victims.

Speaker 2 (01:41:16):
So I know that you've dredged up two FBI profiles
on Paul Bernardo from that says here nineteen eighty eight
and nineteen hundred and ninety two, respectively. And then criminal
profiling is an investigative technique used to identify characteristics of
an unknown perpetrator, so whatever, So based on the behavior

(01:41:41):
of the crime scene, right, that's how they that's how
they do. They investigate the crime scenes, they come across
the profile, and that's how they work it up. Its
purpose is to narrow down potential suspects, link crimes to
the same offender, provide investigators with information to guide their
search and focus their efforts.

Speaker 4 (01:42:03):
Like you said, criminal Minds.

Speaker 6 (01:42:05):
Yeah, Criminal Minds is one of my favorite shows.

Speaker 7 (01:42:07):
I mean, that's and that's even just a kind of
simplify it, like because obviously, like you were kind of
joking around about, all these cases are wrapped up in
a neat, little late forty.

Speaker 2 (01:42:16):
Seven minutes and they're phenomenon now where people watch Criminal
Minds to learn how to get away with stuff.

Speaker 6 (01:42:23):
So there was something called the CSI.

Speaker 2 (01:42:25):
CSI look, criminal Minds CSI, they run together.

Speaker 4 (01:42:30):
It's all the same thing.

Speaker 7 (01:42:32):
But yeah, he mentioned I did actually find two of
the original FBI profiles.

Speaker 4 (01:42:38):
Now this is reading straight from them, right, Yeah, This.

Speaker 7 (01:42:41):
First one is from the nineteen eighty eight one, and
both of these criminal profiles are on Paul Bernardo specifically.

Speaker 4 (01:42:47):
Not Carla. Yeah, but this.

Speaker 7 (01:42:49):
One, this first one again nineteen eighty eight, says quote, Typically,
this type of offender starts his attacks in an area
with which he is familiar. And I'll kind of digress
because we see this all the time. They hunt where
they live, basically, or at least in areas within a
certain radius of a wall.

Speaker 2 (01:43:07):
They normally don't hunt in the same house like Karla did.
But yeah, same area.

Speaker 7 (01:43:13):
Going back to the profile, anger is the primary behavior
exhibited by the offender during his attacks, and his intent
is to punish and degrade the victims as he is
angry with all women. His anger is unmistakable when observing
the excessive force he used against the victims. The escalation
of violence is observable in this series of attacks, as

(01:43:34):
he was using far more physical force against the victims
than was necessary to control them.

Speaker 6 (01:43:39):
And I'm gonna touch on this in a minute.

Speaker 7 (01:43:42):
Based upon all research and our experience that if confronted
by a victim who vigorously resisted his attack, the offender
was the type who would likely to become so enraged
he could lose control and thereby become capable of unintentionally
murdering the victim. The sadist achieves gratification by the victim's
response to his attempts to dominate and control her, either

(01:44:04):
physically or psychologically, by posing a question that would make
the victim beg for her life.

Speaker 6 (01:44:10):
So again, I want to pause here.

Speaker 7 (01:44:11):
That's the nineteen eighty eight profile, and I kind of
shortened it a little bit and everything, just to give
you the.

Speaker 4 (01:44:16):
Gist of oh, yeah, it goes on and on, but
that's just the.

Speaker 7 (01:44:19):
First But yeah, I wanted to pause here and I
want to refer back to the episode we did on
that book by doctor Michael.

Speaker 6 (01:44:25):
Stone, the Anatomy of Evil twenty.

Speaker 7 (01:44:28):
Two point ranking system that he has. I honestly believe
that Paul Bernardo was a sexual status of the same
caliber as John Wayne Gacy, who ranked the highest on
that system. Category twenty two is the highest you can
get for the worst of the worse, the most evil.
It's a psychopathic torture murderers with a torture psychological.

Speaker 6 (01:44:49):
And ornamental being the primary motive.

Speaker 7 (01:44:52):
The crimes don't necessarily have to be sexual in nature,
but like we've seen it with Gacy, who again ranked
the highest, and now with Paul Bernardo. Doctor Stone says
in his books quote, the essence of sadism as we
now use the term, is the taking of enjoyment and
hurting others. Two other main qualities of sadism or humiliation
and control, each carried to the extreme, and all of

(01:45:15):
this is evident in this case. I personally, I don't
know how doctor Stone would do it, but I personally
am going to.

Speaker 6 (01:45:22):
Put Paul Bernardo at a twenty two here.

Speaker 2 (01:45:24):
Yeah, I don't know how he couldn't be at not
a twenty two right at it real close.

Speaker 7 (01:45:28):
Because again it wasn't necessarily the deaths that he wanted.
He wanted their fear, He wanted them in pain, like
he wanted to inflict as much torture even psychologically on them,
because again he made Kristen watch the murder of the
girl that came before her and then tried to make

(01:45:50):
her like play out the submissive role in everything until
finally she started fighting back.

Speaker 6 (01:45:56):
Which he said. The profile says the offender is the.

Speaker 7 (01:45:59):
Type who would likely become so enraged he could lose
control and thereby become capable about unintentionally murdering the victim.
Right now, christ and I believe absolutely was intentional. They
never intended for her to escape and be able to
talk about what.

Speaker 6 (01:46:12):
Happened to her.

Speaker 4 (01:46:13):
Oh no, for sure.

Speaker 7 (01:46:14):
But that nineteen eighty eight profile was so spat on
like it's actually amazing to me.

Speaker 6 (01:46:20):
It was so good.

Speaker 2 (01:46:22):
Yeah, I imagine if doctor Stalin was to look into him,
he'd had to be betweeny two or rear.

Speaker 4 (01:46:29):
Real near near it.

Speaker 2 (01:46:30):
Yeah, have to be, because it just I mean, take
out the amounts of murders and replace some of the
amounts of rapes.

Speaker 4 (01:46:38):
You're still on the John Wayne Gacy.

Speaker 7 (01:46:40):
And again the rape was not even about the sex
it helped. It was about totally controlling and dominating this
other person and inflicting pain and psychological pain on that.

Speaker 2 (01:46:52):
The fact that they would videotape them too just adds
even and hold another level of it too.

Speaker 6 (01:46:56):
But I say that's the humiliation part. That the whole
time this is happening, you think maybe sometimes somewhere other
people are gonna see what's happened to me. That is humilia.

Speaker 7 (01:47:06):
That is the most degrading and humiliating thing as a
woman I can think of.

Speaker 2 (01:47:11):
Would I said, I would put him at not there
twenty two, Yeah, twenty one, twenty two, he'd have to
be in my opinion, absolutely.

Speaker 7 (01:47:18):
I'll read the nineteen ninety two profile here they said
the first rate in Saint Catharine's clearly demonstrated the same
modus operanda, which is just the mo used by the
Scarborough rapist as described elsewhere in this document. This pattern
is predictable in the case of the sexual statist. Abduction
of a victim virtually guarantees that murder will result.

Speaker 6 (01:47:42):
Like we said, the escalation, yep. If the sexual status has.

Speaker 7 (01:47:46):
Held a victim, he feels in his own mind that
he can't possibly let them go. As his fantasy escalates,
he needs more control and gains that control through abduction
and forcible confinement of his victims. The ultimate fantasy of
a sexual status who totally possesses victims both physically and psychologically.
He seeks to achieve control over their life and ultimately

(01:48:08):
over their death as well. That is the ultimate form
of control, hold their life in your hands. Like uh,
Continuing rapists identified as sexual sadus are statistically less than
two percent of all these types of offenders. There is
a high probability that the Scarborough rapists and the sexual
statistic murderer of Mahappy and French is the same offender.

Speaker 4 (01:48:30):
Yeah, and we know this to be accurate.

Speaker 6 (01:48:33):
Ma, I say, I mean they did confess to it.

Speaker 7 (01:48:35):
We have it on videotape, you do it, So, I
mean their profiles were spot on. So had they only
prioritized the types of tips that they were getting, Have
they only like maybe released that composite sketch earlier? Had
they tested that DNA sample that he gave them sooner.

(01:48:58):
There's a possibility that these three girls, and that's what
they are, there girls fourteen and fifteen years old. For
all three of them to fourteen and fifteen, now fifteen
and fourteen. Leslie was fourteen, Tammy and Kristien were fifteen,
that's right, Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:49:16):
I mean just.

Speaker 7 (01:49:19):
I don't know if everything could just happened slightly differently,
those three girls might still be with us.

Speaker 2 (01:49:25):
Well, let's face it, I think if if Paul and
look say to say, if Paul looked like me and
Carla looked like fill in the blanks, whoever the it
would I don't think it would have lasted long.

Speaker 7 (01:49:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:49:43):
The fact that they're the poster child for quote unquote
the good guys and what it's it's really what I mean.

Speaker 6 (01:49:51):
Again, affluent, I mean just kind of lined up.

Speaker 2 (01:49:59):
It kind of falls in with them and the Indez
brothers too good looking guys, wealthy, wealthy, and they got
what you know, they basically burned themselves. Now really yeah,
But in this case, their escalation between with the Ken
and Barbie, their escalation was on a on a course,
on a trajectory that they were they go That's another.

Speaker 7 (01:50:18):
Thing, especially with this kind of escalation that we see repeatedly,
like the Menindaz brothers, I think that was more.

Speaker 6 (01:50:26):
Greed than anything.

Speaker 4 (01:50:27):
Yes, money, And I.

Speaker 7 (01:50:29):
Do think that like eventually they probably would go on
to hurt other people for the same motive, Like if
they could get something out of it that benefited themselves, sure,
they'd probably be dangerous to somebody else.

Speaker 4 (01:50:40):
And they knew they got away with it once.

Speaker 6 (01:50:42):
So yeah, and this is.

Speaker 7 (01:50:45):
A different type of situation because this type of escalation,
it was centered around hurting others. They wanted to inflict pain,
whether it be physical or psychological or in this case
of both. That was their desire, that was their motive
they wanted to do this. So that kind of escalation

(01:51:06):
is only going to get worse to the point that
they completely devolved.

Speaker 6 (01:51:09):
Like these are not going to be people that get.

Speaker 7 (01:51:11):
Away with this for very long, right, I mean keep
in mind this happened between like the late eighties to
about the early nineties, very small.

Speaker 2 (01:51:18):
Window of time here, and that last year what really
started escalating into the murders once they killed Tammy.

Speaker 4 (01:51:25):
It's when I think I.

Speaker 6 (01:51:26):
Think that was that top point that started to go downhill.

Speaker 4 (01:51:30):
Yeah. There, that's when peak.

Speaker 6 (01:51:32):
And then everything's just dropped off.

Speaker 2 (01:51:34):
Well, like I said it, I would describe it a
little differently. When they killed Tammy. That's when the escalation
really kicked in the high gear because I think they
got off on that death. They may not have realized
that at first, but when you start adding the role
playing stuff into it, I think that really fueled that
escalation because they immediately they the nets too, they adducted

(01:51:57):
knowing they were going to kill them. Yeah, saying that
adding to death to really really got them going.

Speaker 6 (01:52:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:52:06):
I mean, like I said earlier, they literally got off
on it, and that was just really and truly when
you think about all of this, it was just the
next logical step in the escalation that was already happening.

Speaker 4 (01:52:18):
So now.

Speaker 2 (01:52:21):
It's we're getting close into the show normally, But I
just want to touch on a couple of other things overall,
if we can get pretty quick, Like what do you
think drew these two together Carla and and and Paul?
You know, like, what do you think made Carla shift
from girlfriend to accomplice? Was she a victim of coercion?

(01:52:46):
That's really what she was saying.

Speaker 6 (01:52:49):
She was afraid of him. She was just going along
with it.

Speaker 2 (01:52:53):
But the videos or that the video she's an active
agent of evil.

Speaker 4 (01:52:57):
I mean, the videos show that she was.

Speaker 6 (01:52:59):
She was a willing in this.

Speaker 2 (01:53:02):
So like in psychological literature, terms like sexual sadism, narcissism, trauma, bonding,
all that stuff kind of come up and through crime circles,
Carla is often dismissed as equally culpable.

Speaker 6 (01:53:18):
She was quoted was quoted to say, is she was
a fucking monster?

Speaker 7 (01:53:25):
Yeah, that was in reaction to her views of the Iguana,
I believe.

Speaker 2 (01:53:29):
Yeah, that's that's early on, that's before the rage and murders.
She was already been called a monster by one of
her co workers at the.

Speaker 4 (01:53:37):
Pet store, so that the signs was there.

Speaker 6 (01:53:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:53:41):
They said that her violence knowingly parallel palls.

Speaker 2 (01:53:45):
Yeah, and I think that her being a batter, the
abuse wife syndrome, uh, the a victim of coersion and
all that stuff, I don't buy that at all.

Speaker 7 (01:53:56):
I think she was trying to play on the emotions
of people because she knew all this was going to
come out and she wanted a lenient.

Speaker 2 (01:54:03):
So the fact that she immediately turned on Paul and
started playing the victim.

Speaker 4 (01:54:08):
Yeah, yeah, she was absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:54:10):
I think Paul was the head of this couple, but
I think that she was left brain right brain of
the same brain.

Speaker 4 (01:54:20):
A was these two right now.

Speaker 7 (01:54:22):
And we'll talk about team killers one day too, because
that's always a fascinating psychological dynamic there. Yeah, you always
had the leader and the follower. Yeah, like Paul obviously
here is a leader. She is the follower. But most
of the time, like we have some cases that I
can talk about where the follower is coerce and threatened into,

(01:54:43):
you know, doing his acts, Like we absolutely get.

Speaker 4 (01:54:46):
Some of that before.

Speaker 6 (01:54:48):
Yeah, she was not that kind of follower.

Speaker 4 (01:54:50):
Yeah, I don't think so either.

Speaker 2 (01:54:51):
I think she was part of the you know, flip
side to the same coin in a way, the ying
and the aang they work together perfectly.

Speaker 6 (01:54:59):
Yeah. So in a very very twisted sense.

Speaker 4 (01:55:03):
Now, we always front forts for insians.

Speaker 2 (01:55:07):
We remember the people that the victims are the main
focus here. Now, the victims families, especially those of Christian
and Leslie, they continue to mourn and advocate and ask
for justice beyond the prison terms, which I think they
rightfully should, and front ports FRIENDSIS would honor them by

(01:55:28):
centering their store their stories, never letting sensationalism overshadow the
humanity of it, because again, these were children.

Speaker 4 (01:55:39):
These are people that.

Speaker 2 (01:55:41):
Girls that were fed to two monsters for no other
reason than to satisfy those sick, sick or just so.
So before we close out, we're getting close to nine
the clause, So before we close, we want to go
in and palls and their lives lost and forever changed

(01:56:02):
by these crimes.

Speaker 4 (01:56:04):
It's the three victims.

Speaker 2 (01:56:06):
We don't have the names of all the rape victims,
and we don't know obviously how many they are, but
the ones that are attributed to the Scarsborough rapist, which
we know is to be Paul, it's multiple of them.

Speaker 7 (01:56:24):
Yeah, I think that was last I checked, close to
twenty that they could confirm.

Speaker 2 (01:56:29):
Right, So we want to keep those people in your
mind and your prayers and theirs families as well, because
they're ever been as victim as the three we're going
to honor here. So again, this is not a story
about the killers. We never want to do that. This
is a story of the victims of innocent, stolen futures extinguished.

Speaker 6 (01:56:49):
Yeah, we'll go through the names.

Speaker 7 (01:56:52):
We've obviously got the first one we've got Tammy Hamuka
fifteen years old. She was a sister, a daughter, a
teenager just beginning to grow in to herself. Her trust
was betrayed by the very people who should have protected
her the most. Her death was framed as an accident,
but it was actually a tragedy shaped by cruelty. Leslie

(01:57:13):
Mahaffey fourteen years old, Bright, creative, and full of potential.
She disappeared on an ordinary summer night, and she just
never came home. She's a parent's nightmare. Her memory is
now tied to a community that still mourns her loss
to this day. Kristin French was fifteen years old, strong willed,

(01:57:34):
athletic and kind. She was abducted in broad daylight, taken
from a life that should have stretched decades ahead of her.
She fought to survive, actually, and her bravery is remember
it as fiercely as her smile. And like Daniel said,
all of Paul Bernardo's rape victims, their names remain private,
but their stories are not forgotten. They survived, they lived

(01:57:56):
through something that others did not, and in their survival,
they became part of the truth that helped bring justice
to two monsters. These people are not just victims. They
were daughters, they were sisters, friends, Their lives mattered, and
we say their names not to sensationalize their desks, but.

Speaker 6 (01:58:13):
To honor their humanity.

Speaker 7 (01:58:14):
So may their memories endure, not in fear and not
in darkness, but only in light. So what remains now?
A case that began with surface perfection, Ken and Barbie
Vernier masked a deep pathology. It was a warning about
what obsession, grooming and a shared fantasy can become, and

(01:58:35):
a question how many more quote unquote perfect couples hide
unfathomable darkness?

Speaker 4 (01:58:41):
Yeah right.

Speaker 2 (01:58:44):
The again, evil is not always ugly, and the good
people are not always pretty.

Speaker 6 (01:58:52):
Sometimes it's masked in pretty packages.

Speaker 4 (01:58:55):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:58:56):
So again, our time has come to an end for today.
Thanks for spending time on our front porch for this tonight,
and remember to be safe out there and don't end
up on an episode of front Ports for instance.

Speaker 4 (01:59:10):
We'll see y'all next time, y'all.

Speaker 6 (01:59:19):
I listened to a lot of True Cry.

Speaker 7 (01:59:22):
I listened to it that night.

Speaker 3 (01:59:26):
I like the girl talk, like scary stories in the morning,
and I.

Speaker 6 (01:59:35):
Like her that night. I like the girl talk. Guys
may made me feel just listen to a lot of
true crime