An Interview With Flamy Grant

Martha and Charles sat down with chart-topping singer, songwriter, and drag performer Flamy Grant.
They discuss what it's like topping the Christian music charts while performing in drag, the importance of authenticity in art, healing from religious trauma, and so much more!

FEATURED SONGS: 
"Good Day (feat. Derek Webb)"
"If You Ever Leave"

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Coming to you from the dining room table at East
Barbary Lane. Welcome to a special episode of Full Circle
the podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
I am your host Charles Tyson Jr.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
And I'm your host Martha Madrigal. Our special guest today
is an amazing talent with a story I can't wait
to get into. It was my pleasure to see her
perform on June twenty ninth, rounding out this year's Pride month.
She managed to make a name and a place for
herself on the gospel charts as a drag queen. And

(00:48):
I assure you we are going to church this afternoon.
Flamey Grant, Welcome to the Full Circle Table.

Speaker 3 (00:57):
Thank you for having me. It's a treat to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
I'm so excited. I was hoping to do this before
you were in Philadelphia, but you were, you were traveling
the country.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, I've learned. I've learned pretty quickly that trying to
do interviews or podcasts while on the road is just
a bad idea. It's a recipe for disaster. Because I
travel alone. I don't have a manager, I don't have
like a team that I'm with. It is literally me
in my Mazda with you know, eight bags in the
back and three wigs, and so it's just it's a

(01:30):
lot thank you for waiting for a time. I'm you know,
comfortably in my own home back here in Ashville, North Carolina.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
And yeah, okay, Ashville. So that's a lot too far
from where my family's from, which.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
Is Wadesboro, Waynesboro, Wadesboro. Oh, Wadesboro. I don't know Wadesboro.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
No one does.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
I mean, because apparently you can drive through the whole
thing in twenty minutes. Like by the time I realized
we were at the other end, I was like, oh,
I should have paid closer.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
I'll have to look it up.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
So you have an act like nothing I've ever seen, honestly.
You know, I did drag myself one hundred and forty
three years ago. You know. So I love a queen
that sings live. You are a very talented musician and songwriter.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Facts.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
I am such a lyric core. I just love smart,
good lyrics, and you're all of it tells such a
wonderful story. But I've never seen anyone do what you
do in terms of first of all the gospel church,
which is a great story, but you know, really kind

(02:48):
of wrestling with religious drama wrestling with you know, the
experiences of queer people and especially the Evangelical church. And
I have a story there myself. So it was incredible.
I mean I was crying and laughing and smiling and
crying and just watching your act.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
Thank you. That is so kind and and I'm honored.
I'm honored to hear that and gratified because I I
do feel like so much of what I've had to
learn as I've navigated this, you know, career shift is

(03:30):
I haven't had much of a template for you know,
I love drag. I love the art of drag. I
especially got into dragon in my thirties. I'm a I'm
a late bloomer across the board because you know, religious trauma.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
That'll do it.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yeah. When I finally started going to drag shows in uh,
San Diego where I that's where I lived at the time,
in my thirties, I just fell in love with it
and I was like, this is such an amazing art
form and wow, wow wow. But you know, I never
really envisioned myself in it because I couldn't see myself
out there doing stunts and splits and like a couples

(04:09):
and all that you know.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Because that's all drag is anymore. No, I'm kidding.

Speaker 3 (04:13):
I'm too old. I'm too old for that girl, Like
those days are all behind me. So I you know,
it's been fun. It's been really fun to realize and
figure out that hey, I can just do this my way.
I can bring what I already have to bring and
just package it in this art form and figure that out.

(04:33):
And it's been a puzzle. You know, There's been several
years in the making, and I do feel like I'm
just now, really this year in twenty twenty five, kind
of figuring out my thing, like and seeing what works
and feeling really confident in my shows.

Speaker 4 (04:50):
Now.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
I feel like the show you saw this past tour especially,
I was just I felt like top of my game.
You know. It's like I know what I'm doing. I
know how to communicy to this audience. I know what
I want to say and what I don't want to say. Like,
I know the things that we need to leave behind
for these two hours and not let's not talk about
a lot of the stuff, but really specific points you

(05:14):
know in the narrative to hit and make sure Yeah,
let's definitely like explore that religious trauma, but maybe a
little a little more briefly than I have been doing
in the past and past shows. It's like, let's not
dwell on it too too long, because, especially in the
year twenty twenty five, like we're not looking to sit
in that right for a real long time. You know,

(05:36):
like we need not necessarily escapism, but we need a
moment to like remember what resilience feels like. Remember that
we are powerful, we are strong, we have each other,
like that is where our strength comes from, is our community,
And so I really try to focus mostly on those
like points.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
You know, an important point about our resilience is it's
almost always collective, absolutely, you know, it's not an individual
thing like it is for somebody, you know, the rugged
individualism within the queer community. That's a that's a tough one.
But you know, when we do stand together and see
each other, which happens, you know, for moments at a time,

(06:19):
it's magic. It's and you know I've said, and you
know I talk for a living, but we're music reaches
us where words fail, and I think that that's always
been true. And you know, especially right now when you

(06:40):
can't trust you know, the highest levels of our government
to tell you the truth or anything close to it. Yeah,
you know, words are losing some of their power, which
shouldn't happen, but yet set them to music, and I
think that they reach just another place. Uh, and it was,

(07:04):
it's amazing, it's amazing. Asheville, North Carolina. Grew up there, Yeah,
wound up back many years later. I grew up in
South Jersey, wound up back here many years later. So
there's that. My religious trauma. My was with various versions

(07:27):
of the Pentecostal church. And yeah, yeah, and not my
not my parents, but my sibling, who is still you know,
kind of very involved. But the sibling that I worshiped,
you know, the sister that I just worshiped, and so
I tried to follow along, and you know, she was

(07:49):
kind enough to throw me an exorcism at one point,
and which, yeah, that leaves a mark. It leaves a mark,
and you know, untangling. That is the reason it took
me so many years to figure it all out and
be able to say, you know what, none of this

(08:09):
goes away. You know, I thought the thing would be
coming out as queer, I really did, and it wasn't enough.
It wasn't all of it for me. You know. The
fact was I've known I was transferred since I was
locked three, and so it's peeling an onion. That's you know,

(08:30):
I work with our community, I'm a counselor. But you know,
and that's the best analogy I've got. How about you?
How about you? What was that like? That journey to get.

Speaker 3 (08:42):
Coming the ditto? For sure? You know it's coming out
as such a lifelong process. You know, it's it's not
just the one time and USh, who was I reading
or listening to the other day. It's talking about the

(09:04):
journey of our queerness and in totality, you know, sexuality,
gender identity, just all of it. The otherness that you
feel is we I mean, most of us really don't.
We don't reach like the done. We don't reach the

(09:25):
period at the end of the sentence. You know, we're
not done. I fully expect that my life and presentation
and everything is going to look really different ten years
from now than it does today, you know, And that's
just because I feel like I've finally reached a point
in my life where I know enough to know that
I don't Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what

(09:49):
it is and that's the magic and the beauty of
it when we get to just let ourselves and let
each other be on these journeys, and we get to
support each other wherever we happen to be in that
little journey, even if we you know, maybe some of
us with a little more life experience might look at

(10:10):
somebody a little younger and be like, I know you're
not done. But we don't have to, Like, we don't
have to push anybody in any specific direction. We just
let them be and let them experience it, and we
can guide, if you know, if that is asked of us,
and we can definitely provide the you know, uh, the
that we can provide the spotlight from our own experiences

(10:33):
on that path to say like, hey, if you're struggling
at this point, let me tell you about what happened
to me. But at the end of the day, like
I just really really respect that these journeys are so personalized,
so individual, so unique to the person having them, and
it's a joy. It's just a joy to get to

(10:54):
watch people bloom and blossom and unfold and uncover and
peel those layers of the onion. Like you said, oh,
it's privilege.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
It is, And one of the most damaging and stunting
words that will impede that process is the word should.
You know. That's what That's what gets in the way
of so much.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
It starts with the same letters as shame.

Speaker 3 (11:20):
And shit and ship.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
I thought it, you said, thank you for that.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
You know, you said something really important, you know, embracing
the not knowing. Yeah, and it's okay to not know.
And I hate to boil it down, but I'm gonna
so much of religion from my perspective here on the
outside now is you know. It's that need or desire

(11:48):
to have certainty, to blacken what, tell me how to live,
tell me what to know. That is why religion takes
hold the way it does.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
Yeah, it's powerful having that concrete and I'm using air
quotes for the folks listening, but that concrete answer, you know,
like it is, it is this, it is black and white,
it is this way or that way. And it's so
comforting in a world that can be really confusing and
scary and hard and dark at times to feel like

(12:21):
you have been given two very clear options and to
feel like there is one that is clearly the good
way and one that is clearly the bad way, right,
it feels good to be able to say I'm on
the right again. Air quotes paths and religion offers.

Speaker 1 (12:38):
That depending on the building you're in.

Speaker 3 (12:40):
Well exactly yeah, exactly right. But that's what these these
faith communities can offer people off oftentimes, and and unfortunately
really end up boiling down to just that, ignoring the mystery,
ignoring the majesty, ignoring the breadth of what the divine is,

(13:01):
and what the divine is in each of us, and
how the divine is expressed in this planet, in this
world and this species. So just just dramatically different in
so many ways, right, and and and you said earlier,
you know that that our strength really does, our resilience

(13:22):
really does come from the community. And that is why
like celebrating pride and just being with our Elizabeth Tiqui,
if we're going to quote Chris Matthews Peers, I mean,
we just get a bigger picture. We just get more
of the story. The more that we open up and
include and celebrate and champion people on their journeys, we

(13:47):
just get a better, closer, broader picture of what the
divine really is.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
Right there, you go, And I know how to piss
off people really quit when I said, I probably know
your Bible better than you, girl, because you know, first
of all, I was looking for the loopholes and I
felt like I needed to, and I was, I was
really searching for answers. And I said, there is no

(14:14):
one who prays harder than a queer or trans kid,
no one. You're here, especially if you're you're in the church,
and it's clear, even if it's not said directly, it's
all clear in too many churches that you don't exist. Yeah,

(14:35):
And that's that's the part that's so hard to peel back, right,
is you can't trust your own mind because you're you
have convinced yourself you are something that is evil and
doesn't exist in the first place. So that mindful, you know,
it takes a long time to go, wait a minute,

(14:56):
no matter what I do, I'm no different. And then
I feel like we come to the moment where we say, maybe,
if there is a God, she made me like this.
M hm, you know I don't. Well, that was not
mine to tell you why, but it is mine to

(15:16):
stop hating it.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
That was the conclusion I came to because I went
through thirteen years of Catholic school if you count kindergarten right.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
And.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
I remember I came out to myself officially, I would
say around fifteen sixteen. And the moment was I was
in the choir because of course, and during school mass,
they were doing this skit. And the skit was, you know,

(15:48):
one kid's playing Jesus and then the other kids are
coming up to him representing the various sins and asking
for forgiveness. And one of the kids came up he
had this like peach ensemble, carrying a purse and saying
I'm a homosexual and I need your forgiveness. And I'm
just like, this is stupid. And if God is infallible

(16:13):
and God makes no mistakes and we're all made in
the image of God, how you know what I'm saying?
Like the math ain't math ands I'm like, thank you.
So I'm like this is dumb. And then my parents
were like, you want to go to a Catholic college.
I said no, I'm good. And I had time to
pull myself out of everything, and that's when I realized,

(16:36):
you know, I believe in I call it the universe.
I don't call it capital g God. I call it
the universe, it's ultimately the same thing. And also I realized,
like everybody's all the religions are right, No one's right,
everyone's wrong at the same time, you know what I mean.

(16:58):
It's so this whole like like, basically, how can you
have a concrete answer to an abstract question? You know
what I'm saying?

Speaker 3 (17:07):
Yeah, how can you talk with certainty and in facts
and truths about something that you believe?

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Right? Thank you?

Speaker 3 (17:18):
Belief by default is not true, right, Belief is an
untrue thing because it can't be, It can't possibly be.
Otherwise we would use the word truth. And that's why
we have to use the word believe, because that's something
we hope, right, we hope it's true. Right, that's a faith,
faith in that thing, trust in that thing. But I

(17:39):
can't know it and I can't prove it. And so
why am I trying to do those things? Why am
I wasting my one wild, precious life, thank you, Mary
Oliver to try to prove something that I can't. Like,
It's it's just it's a whole different mindset when you
finally do come to that place where you're like, oh,

(18:00):
I don't know, and guess what I don't need to.
I'm gonna live a gorgeous, beautiful, full life without knowing, right,
and that is going to be fine. And the fear
that gets instilled in so many of us in these
really cult like religious spaces, the high demand religious stuff,
is that there are horrible consequences right hell obviously being

(18:25):
the biggest one, but even more immediate consequences of losing
your community, getting kicked out, excommunicated, whatever your particular brand
calls it. You know, like those are scary consequences when
you're told and taught and indoctrinated and groomed, Thank you leave,
thank you, that there is only one way, that there
is only uh, you know, the the binary, and that

(18:49):
you have to choose the good over the evil and
all that. So it's I hear you on the It
takes a long time to unravel and extract yourself from
the clutches of that kind of that that that that
grip of the requirements of certainty. If somebody's asking you
to be certain baby right, right, and is the.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
Idea of like, well, actually that's not true. That's the thing.
There's money in certainty. There's a whole business that can
be built around selling certainty. Right, And that's that's the
part I see ye right. You know, some of the
best conversations I've ever had have been with theologians and
biblical scholars. As long as we can agree to this,

(19:33):
we reserve one corner of this entire conversation to admit
this all might be bullshit. If you can't say that,
we can't talk let's can't talk about it because that
it's not possible. And that's you know, that's the other
part of the drawl in, isn't it. You know, if

(19:55):
you question this, you're questioning faith, you're questioning God, if
you're question God going to hell? It's what a circle?
What a circle for queer kids to either be, you know,
trapped inside of or you know that day they realize
they're on the outside of it. Yes, yeah, And you

(20:15):
have two interesting songs, and I want you to tell
the story, well more than two, but I mean I
find all of them interesting, but the one that hit
the gospel chart as at it's kind of about the
folks who stay mm hmm. And then you've wrote another
one that really really touched me that was about the

(20:36):
folks who have to go mm hmmm. I think They're
both important. M M.

Speaker 3 (20:43):
Yeah, I do too, and that's kind of why I
still do them both in the shows and why I
tend to end my set with them or I have
been this over the past six months or so, ending
my set with those two songs back to back. I
end with good Day because it's the one that's expected
of me every show I do, because it did hit
number one on those iTunes Christian music charts, and I

(21:05):
love that if people. If people know about Flamy Grant,
they know about me because of that whole story.

Speaker 5 (21:13):
It's been a while since I sad with you without
a nod in my chest. Though it's been a while
since I've wanted so. I always felt a little oppressed,
So it's been a while. It's been a while since

(21:38):
I've been ad and.

Speaker 6 (21:41):
Let down my card because I carry the weight of
the words you said.

Speaker 5 (21:48):
That makes it just a little bit hard to.

Speaker 6 (21:51):
Reject the lines you prepet you it, but you're not
the keeper of the pearly game. And it's been oh wow,
I'm coming back to fight.

Speaker 4 (22:08):
A good Day, to come back home. You send me away,
and I was never alone. You were afraid there was
not enough much care, right, out of love.

Speaker 6 (22:22):
So I here to say, I'm sitting in the front row.

Speaker 5 (22:27):
Is a good day to come out of the shadow.

Speaker 4 (22:31):
God made me good, and everyone I'm sorraise my boice
to celebrate a good day.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
And yeah, it's it's like you said. I wrote that song.
I wrote good Day specifically for the ones who stick
around and fulfill this volunteer position. I very much like
to call it a volunteer role of being one of
the people who will take up space in the faith

(23:01):
in the more like the traditional, like let me call
myself a Christian, let me be in these Christian spaces
as a queer person. Let me model and show what
it looks like to be this queer person of faith
and to have this very holy and queer life together,
because there is no distinction. And I have to teach

(23:22):
that to people by how I live, you know. And
most importantly, we're there because we're showing that next generation
of queer kids coming up that there's a healthy, happy,
hopeful future waiting for them, because that's what was missing
for so much of us, right, So many of us
were told nothing, nothing hopeful or happy about that path, right,
And so we get to model that and do that work.

(23:44):
But it is work and it ain't easy, and it's
not for everybody. And that's why I'm really I just
really always try to make that point, like, this is
a volunteer role. Baby, You're not expected as a queer
person to stick around in places that are act actively
harming you and harming your psyche and your emotional being
and your heart. And it's not your job. It's not

(24:07):
your job to change that culture.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
You said in an interview, you can't heal where the
harm is happening, Yes, And.

Speaker 3 (24:15):
You can't exactly can't heal where you're being hurt week
after week after week. Right, you go, you go to
a church that like denies your existence or like won't
let you fully participate in every in the full life
of the church or whatever. Like, that's a that's a
that's a harm. That is a that is a cut
on your on your psyche, on your soul, and it's
going to bleed throughout the week. And and just when

(24:37):
you're maybe you know, getting to the point where it's
healing healing over a little bit, you're gonna go back
and they're gonna cut you again. Like, no, this is
not your job. So that That other song that you
mentioned is called if You Ever Leave, and it's I
wrote it as a direct response to my own song

(24:57):
good Day, because I just wanted to. I wanted to
balance these skills a little bit. I wanted to show
both sides of the coin and say, you know, we
don't in our culture, we do not legitimize or spotlight
or really celebrate the virtue of leaving something toxic. You know,

(25:17):
We're such a stick to it kind of culture. We're
such a bootstrappy like no, just like muscle your way
through the pain kind of culture. And I don't believe
in that anymore. I believe in getting the hell out
of dodge when you need to.

Speaker 5 (25:33):
If you ever leave, I hope you believe a lie
all just enough to see the.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Open door you love before you.

Speaker 7 (26:00):
Ah dak the halls with slumping bride in Queen A
big grain bad they'll call it down there still mold
any here, only taking.

Speaker 5 (26:22):
What you need, a little time to agree, if you.

Speaker 3 (26:28):
Ever And So that's really all that song is. It's
just a way to model for the person who might
need to hear it, because I know at one point
I needed to hear it that I don't have to.
I don't have to keep going back to this place
that's causing me all this pain and this harm, this
psychological trauma, and I could just I could just stop,

(26:51):
and I don't need to feel any guilt, I don't
need to feel any shame. And there is a community
still waiting for me. I might lose, I might lose.
There is a cost, Absolutely, there is a cost. You
will lose some connections to people, some community, but it's
not going to be as devastating as they tell you.
It's going to be right, and we're here, We're here

(27:14):
on the other side waiting to embrace the folks who
need to get out.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah, yet, like I work in recovery for my day job.
That's a night job, and you know, yes, there's always
a cost. But I look at it, look at it
as and this is what I say to the clients.
You look at it as an investment. And any investment
you make in yourself is always a good investment. I

(27:40):
love that, you know what I mean. And so sometimes
that investment is stepping away from the environment that's harming you,
choosing yourself.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yeah, I you know, I had a very black and
white line at one time. You know, before I became
account before I started sitting with people who you know,
my entire almost all of my case lotus, queer or trans,
but you know, some are still right there in the

(28:14):
church and having to be respectful of that, you know,
because if I'm not, if I can't do that, then
I'm not effective, you know. So it's really always about
where they come from, not where I come from. I
don't talk about that. I run a lot of groups
and talk with a lot of people, but I don't

(28:34):
talk as much about my personal beliefs because they're not
germane in that setting. But I did have a newer
client who is still very involved in the Catholic Church
and having a really hard time, you know, with her
identity as a lesbian, having a really hard time with

(28:54):
her relationship with gender within the church. And I said,
I understand, you know, I was raised in the Catholic Church.
And she said, well, why did you leave? And I said, well,
you know what, honey, I don't feel like I left
them so much as they left me.

Speaker 3 (29:13):
Hmmm.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah. You know, I realized I cannot be me, in
the fullness of me in any way and stay in
the church even though the Vatican is actually a tea dance.
I still don't feel like there's a place for me authentically.

Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yeah, I hear you on that. I mean it is.
I think we do reach that point where were it
feels like we're forced to make the decision. But that's
such a good framing of it, because you're right, like
I gave, oh, I gave everything, my time, my energy,
all of it, you know, my free time. I was

(29:49):
a volunteer worship leader for twenty two years. You know,
I really I started churches. You know, they called us
church planters. You know, I went and did that, Like
I really gave it it everything I possibly could. And
the more I became myself, the more I peeled back
those layers, the less room there was for me. Right

(30:12):
And yeah, so it's it's unfortunate that it's framed as like, oh, yeah,
we're leaving these churches or or whatever. But no, like
the church, the church is not made room.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
Right, right. I I applaud the ones that have, you know,
I applaud the ones that are really trying to wrestle
with all these issues, and especially the ones that have
made a declaration that doesn't necessarily heal the scars. Correct,
there's a lot of ground there and some folks will
never be able to go back.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
You know. Part of well, a big part of my
counseling is also an addiction, you know, because we have
numbers that are staggering within all of our communities, m
and you know, so much of it is based in shame,
So much of it is based in not belonging and
and the fear of what we'll lose or could lose.

(31:13):
And it's one of the few ways we socialize and
meet one another in the beginning at a bar and
there we go, you know. So it's like it's important
to be able to you know, figure all this out.
But it's like I treat the human being, you know,
and and and help them say I'm okay, and what

(31:35):
I am is complete and whole and beautiful. And the
addiction is kind of a side job mm hmm. Yeah,
because it's we got to find the value, you know,
like everyone has this intrinsic value, but that's not the message.
Yeah yeah, and yeah, firming or not, it's not the

(31:59):
message that so many of us get and have dug
into us. And so I loved the fact that when
I saw you perform. We were in a church.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, and I still do a lot of them. I mean,
that is my joke is if I'm going to church nowadays,
I'm getting paid. Yeah, and that's reparations. Like I said,
twenty two, for twenty two solid years I was leading
worship in some way, shape or form, and only two
of those years I was on a payroll. The rest

(32:31):
was all volunteers. So yeah, it's it's it's I recognize it's.
It's it's like I said, it's a volunteer position, and
I recognize the value of it. I recognize that there
is good to be done in those spaces, and so
I'm doing it at least for now, you know, but
IM won't get paid.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
Call it tithing if it makes you feel better whatever.

Speaker 3 (32:56):
That's right, tithing, tipping, same difference.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
For real though, reparation.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
I love that, So, you know, let's cut to it.
How does it feel being a drag queen that hit
the top of the Christian charts? I love that distinction,
Like you're like the tricks you matel for Jesus.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
Oh, oh my gosh, it's so funny. I mean, obviously,
I think I had had some kind of vision of it,
you know, it could have I was like, this could happen.
I had seen my friend similar It was the first
out queer artist to ever hit number one on a

(33:40):
Christian chart. So they did it the year before I did,
and so that was inspiring. I was like, oh my god,
we can do this as independent artists. We can put
our music out into the world. And if we can
find the audience through the magic of social media or whatever,
it can happen. And so I kind of had a
little vision for it, but you know, it always felt

(34:04):
like such a pipe dream. And and it was ten
months after my first album had released, you know, so
it was kind of just I was barely just finding
my groove and I hadn't even I still had my
day job. I hadn't started doing this full time yet,
and and boom, you know, it literally was an overnight thing.

(34:26):
I mean, you know, it's like they say about overnight
work though, right, Like you have to work years and
years to be an overnight success, right. So I I
just woke up, you know, the next day, and I
had the number one record and Rolling Stone was calling
and you know, like the Today Show, and like it

(34:48):
was it was crazy and I recognize that all of
that is, you know, it's a tool to be used,
you know, like all that that moment in particular was
just it was irresistible. I think for all these publications
to be able to run and run a tagline or
a headline that said drag Queen tops Christian Music, because

(35:10):
that's the moment we're in, right it is we have
very clearly pitted queer people the LGBTT plus community, and
it's specifically drag queens for some reason against this like
institution of Christianity.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
And yeah, I know right, you had me at drag
Queen Tops.

Speaker 3 (35:31):
It was like, that's the other joke is like I've
never topped anything in my life until that chart. Okay,
like that. Yeah, it was fun. It was crazy, and
I was like, I'm gonna I better capitalize on this
moment because I really do want to do this full time,
make this my career, and and so I did. I

(35:52):
dove in quit the job. I was already in the
process of quitting the job and moving back here to
North Carolina because this all happened in twenty twenty three
when I was still in San Diego, and so we
just kind of accelerated everything. We're like, let's take advantage
of the moment. And I feel like I'm still I'm
still running on a little bit of that steam. But also,

(36:15):
as we talked about earlier, I feel like I've figured
out what I do. You know, I know what I
do now, and I know why I do it, and
you know, with or without any future chart success, like,
I'm here for the long haul. I'm here to like
this is. This is what I want to do with
my life. I've always wanted to do it. I just
didn't I didn't know what it would look.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
Like, right, And now you always know that you can
do that. Yeah, exactly, check it off the list.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
When you when you think about your audience, when you
think about who you write for, who you perform for,
who is it?

Speaker 3 (36:56):
I always have folks in mind, and and and and
mostly just because that is I just I think any
good artist you start with your own experience, right, And
that's I'm not going to presume to tell anybody else
what their life is about, but I can tell you

(37:17):
what mine's about. And and so I'm always thinking about
queer folks. The beautiful happy accident with any kind of
art is that as long as you are being authentic
to your own story and being vulnerable inappropriate ways. You know,
there's like there are bad ways to be vulnerable, for sure, but.

Speaker 8 (37:44):
Like that that the combination of that vulnerability authenticity coupled
with whatever your skill, your talent, whatever you bring to
the table or.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
Your work you're you're really hard work that you put
into it is going to speak to people. They don't
have to have your shared background, they don't have to
come from the same place. And one of my favorite
things is in those lines after shows when people are
we want to grab their picture with the draguen. You know,
there's always almost always there's at least one or two,

(38:19):
like older sis, white dudes who come up and they're like,
I know, I know you don't do this for me,
but I gotta tell you, like what this song meant
to me, or what what you said this and that
really spoke to me. And that's my favorite thing. I
love it.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
Like then it was for your yea, then it was
for you, babe.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
We didn't get a chance to talk much because you
had a line, and you had a line for a
while always and I'll hey, and I wasn't going to
get you know, I don't want to stop that for anyone,
but it was I had, you know, given a speech
out in the It was a ridiculous heat that day,

(39:01):
which and it was you know, I came home and
wrang myself out and changed my clothes to get to
your show. Like we got there about two and a
half minutes before you came out, and I was I'm like,
thank god, she's holding the curtain, you know. But it
was just like I said to like, I have to go.
I just have to go. But yeah, it was. It

(39:24):
was amazing to see, you know, the kids and just
all the different people. And there were there was a
couple of obviously fifth heat guys standing there enamored.

Speaker 3 (39:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
And you know, my thought on the focus, you know
what gives me a little more courage maybe than I
would have had is I do know I'm talking to
the queer and trans people, whether they're out or not,
whether they know yet or not, That's who I'm talking to.
And so if you have an opinion about what I

(40:00):
have to say, I can turn to you with full
sass and say I was not speaking to you, yeah,
but thank you, and then keep going right, and then
just keep going and keep going. Yeah, but hey, if
you got something out of it, that's good, that's great too.
But otherwise get out of my way exactly.

Speaker 3 (40:22):
I mean, Jesus himself had that. Remember, he said, I
have not come. I don't remember the exact phrasing of
the verse, but I have not come to He drew
a clear line. He said, I haven't come for this group.
I came for this group, and I do that every day.
I'm like, look, you know, I love it. I love
if you resonate and we don't have a shared background

(40:43):
or we do. You know, there's always some we'll always
share something. But sure, if you're straight and you resonate,
I love it. That's phenomenal. It's maybe not my primary
concern when I'm thinking about what I do and who
I do it for. But I'm glad that you're there.
I'm really glad you're there, and I hope that you
take it as well, and you know, bring bring it

(41:05):
to your community and then bring bring your folks back
to the show, because right that's how it works.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
I was amazed just the power in your voice, by
the way, and the fact that you can you didn't
take a break. I think you might have had a
sip of water, but you did not take a break.
You held that stage for the entire performance. And what
you do vocally is you know, truly spectacular.

Speaker 3 (41:32):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
I don't know how you did that.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
Girl got some pipes on a sip and water.

Speaker 3 (41:36):
Now, I like to say I was blessed with a
big set of lungs. And yeah, I've learned over the again.
That's another thing I've kind of learned about the job
on the job is that I don't like doing an
intermission because I feel like I lose the momentum and
I have to like build back up again. So I
like the ninety minute set. I get to do a full,

(41:59):
complete arc. I get to do what I want to
do and there's no you know, no interruption, and so
it is. It is tiring, and especially on my forty
three year old body, you know, I'm like, I'm realizing, oh,
I gotta I gotta do some breathing exercises a little
more and all of that. But yeah, it's it's a
lot of fun. And the other thing I've learned is heels.

(42:24):
Girl Like I used to do it. I used to
do it in like the six inch stilettos. Yes, but
I realized I was like most drag artists go out
for a three minute number stiletts and then you kick
them off backstage, you know, and I'm standing up there
for ninety minutes straight, and so I realized, no, We're

(42:44):
going to find another way. So that's thank goodness for
those sparkle boots that they make with the wedges.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
I say, really, you know, they were perfectly cute and
you can stand in them. Yeah, I have to carry
my shoes to the edge of the stage and put
them on, like.

Speaker 3 (42:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. And there were even shows
where I would kick them off. I'd be like after
the first song, I would be like, Okay, I've proved
I can do it. They're coming off now and.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
Your Patty moment exactly. I love it. Well, going back
to the idea of authenticity, you know, like that's that's
what makes good art, you know, like an audience, no
matter the demographic, is going to resonate with authenticity. And
at the same time, you know, inauthenticity you can smell

(43:32):
it and you're not gonna you know, you might you
might think it's cute, you might like this thing or
this thing, but you're not going to follow it, you
know what I mean. So that's always going to be
your ticket no matter what it is that you do.
You know, if you're true in yourself and you're true
in what you're doing, and it's coming from the idea

(43:55):
that I'm doing this because it has to be done,
not because I want fame, I want money, I want
you know what I'm saying. Like, if it comes from
I'm doing the art because the art needs to be made.
Mm hmm, that's going to be successful.

Speaker 1 (44:07):
I think. Doesn't mean you're going to be.

Speaker 3 (44:10):
Rich exactly, right. Yeah, we we we measure measure success
by a lot of different metrics and right, and I
think you're right. It's it's it's what it's going to
do is it's going to reach the people who need
to hear it. It's going to create community around that.
And yeah, if you're lucky, then you can get a
career out of it. You can even get famous or

(44:30):
rich off of it. But that's that can't be I mean,
it can be the point. And there are people obviously
who chase that and that's you know, no judgment, but
I agree with you that there's a there's a deeper
reason we do this.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
And you feel better about the art that you're making
when it's coming from an authentic place.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
Yeah. Yeah, somebody ask I mean, I'm pushing sixty hard.
And you know, someone had said to me like, how
do you keep the schedule you keep? I got my
hand in a lot of pies and I said, phrasing, yeah,
I know, I said. I don't do anything I don't

(45:10):
want to do. That's why everything I do is because
I think it's important, and it, you know, feeds my soul.
It doesn't not that it's not depleting, you know, in
some ways, sure, but it's also work that keeps me moving.

Speaker 3 (45:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
And so it means.

Speaker 3 (45:31):
I have a friends who you know, like I said,
I had a day job for most of my life.
I didn't quit my day job until I was what
forty one, And I have so many friends who like
look at the look at my calendar or my travel
schedule or whatever and be like, oh my gosh, how
do you do it? And I'm like, well, think about
how much energy it takes for you to go to

(45:51):
your job every day and deal with whatever group of
people that you deal with. For me, I worked in nonprofit.
I worked mostly with good people, but nonetheless it's not
people that I would have chosen to spend that time
with otherwise. You know, I was forced by this system,
by the by capitalist society, to spend eight hours a
day with the same people and the energy that went

(46:14):
into cultivating those relationships that I wouldn't have chosen to otherwise.
Maybe one or two would you know, would have been
my real life friends, but work friends, Like that's all
thing that just takes so much energy and there's like
complicated personalities to navigate all day long, and I'm like,
I don't have to do that anymore, like at all.

(46:35):
Most of my time is actually spent alone. Like I'm
on the road, Like I said by myself, I drive
myself on tour. I don't have I wish my husband
could come with me, but he doesn't like it. He
likes to be in one place. So for now, at
least that's what my life looks like. And I get
those drives, those five hour drives between gigs are replenishing
for me to just have that alone time in my car.

(46:59):
I sometimes I don't even put on an audiobook or music,
you know, I just literally sit there like a weirdo
and drive in complete silence, and it's like it's it's
life giving, so you know, yeah, it's it's it's give
and take it. It's an exchange. So the energy for
this job comes from the fact that I am not
spending my energy in a whole lot of ways that

(47:20):
I used to spend it.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
It's the difference between a job and a.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
Career, I guess, yeah, yeah, yeah, and a passion.

Speaker 3 (47:27):
You know, passion. I already passion all of it.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
I even say calling.

Speaker 3 (47:33):
One might even say calling or ministry.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, I mean literal one might look at you.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
Yeah, that was going to be my next question was
is your husband involved in your work at all? Or
dude y'all or just a fan.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
So so I do have a like a one woman
cabaret show that I do that's different from what you saw.
And most of what I do is traditional. I'm a
singer songwriter who happens to do it in drag. So
if you've been to a singer songwriter folk concert, then
you know what to expect. If you come to a
Fleamy Grant show, you're just it's just gonna be a
little flashy er maybe right. But I also do more

(48:12):
traditional like you know, solo drag queen cabaret show with
like skits and comedy and monologues and crowd work and
all that good stuff and and so in those my
husband sometimes will do a little trivia game with me
because he used to host trivia in at one of
the gay bars in San Diego, and so he'll come
and do a trivia where we pull somebody from the

(48:33):
audience and they compete against me, and we don't tell
them beforehand that it's going to be Bible trivia.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
Jesus, I love that.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
We just we asked for a volunteer and say, hey,
who wants to do you know, who wants to Are
you smarter than a drag queen kind of thing? And
then they get up there. And by the way, all
this trivia comes from the Old Testament or whatever. So yeah,
he's and he loves drag too, and he's very invested
in what I do. He provides a lot of input

(49:01):
on the looks and the wigs and all of that.
But no, we do have we have separate lives, separate careers,
and he's, uh, he likes being anchored to one place.
He loves being in the same community all the time.
He's a server bartender and and so he's just like
that's his personality. And we did try it when we

(49:23):
first moved back to North Carolina right after the album
hit number one. You know, he didn't have a job
here yet, and I was like, just come on the
road with me, like, let's see how it goes. And
about a month and he was like, yeah, not for me.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
Okay, I want to stay married to you, So let's
not do this anymore exactly.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
Yeah, Dolly Parton's husband stayed home and right she got
out there and did her thing, and it still does.
But you know, he was her rock at home.

Speaker 3 (49:52):
Yeah, I feel I feel that very much. Like and
like I said, I'm home right now for about three
weeks and it's just wonderful. I mean, we did we
went this morning and got tires on my car, like
that was the big thing for today. But like we
did it together. You know, we had we had brunch
while we waited for the tires to get right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
How how do you navigate spending so much time away
from each other?

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Though?

Speaker 3 (50:20):
We love Marco Polo? Do all use that app?

Speaker 2 (50:25):
Oh yeah, the beach ball thingy?

Speaker 3 (50:28):
Yes, it's a video. It's a video app, so it's
if you're not video calling, you're just leaving video messages
for each other back and forth. And it's great because
then because our timing so rarely lines up, you know.

Speaker 7 (50:42):
I'm.

Speaker 3 (50:45):
Yeah, it's a great We use that a lot. And
then we we obviously do a lot of FaceTime and calling,
and then we've we've really realized that we need Actually
I've heard a lot of couples who do this kind
of work say like, like two weeks should be your
max amount of time apart before you like reconvene in person.

(51:07):
We're not there, and we don't have the finances to
really be there for him to like fly out every
two weeks to wherever I am, but we are we've
realized that there is a limit. Especially this year. I
did like a six week run in April and then
I just finished a five week but the Pride month
run that you saw, and we've realized those are too long,

(51:28):
that's that's too long to be apart. So we're gonna
make sure that we you know, I think three weeks
is probably a good a good max amount of time
for me to be away. But he does come out
for different things as well. Here and there. So he
actually was with me on the West Coast in April
for about a week and that was great. And you know,

(51:48):
we're going on a cruise, our first ever cruise in
two weeks where I'm performing. I'm performing for this group
called the Mama Bears. It's like a you know I
mother's you know them who they are mothers who are allies.
So I'm going to go perform for them on their cruise.
And they kindly and generously paid for Chris to come along,
so we get to go do that together. So that'll

(52:10):
be nice.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
That's okay.

Speaker 1 (52:14):
I you know, they a lot of my I collect
memes and a lot of them will come from the
Mama Bears, you know, like the messages. And then I'm like,
all right, there we go. Love that. Yeah, I'm great,
that's awesome. I didn't know they had a cruise.

Speaker 3 (52:31):
Me neither until they asked me to come on it.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
So I said yes, that it'd be great, brilliant. Yeah,
Susan Warner, we're waiting for trout fishing in America or
do another one because they haven't in years. But their
friends and were like, all right, if they do it,
maybe we'll get on a ship we have never been. Maybe.

Speaker 3 (52:49):
Yeah, I'm a little nervous, not gonna lie, but take
it in stride.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
You're coming back to Philadelphia, is that right? Yes?

Speaker 3 (52:59):
Yes, Actually she's going to be on Halloween really at
the fallser Club. So we're doing a Halloween show with
my friend Heather May, who is Chris matthews partner. Yeah, yes,
So well, we have a lot of fun, Heather and
I do. We have a lot of fun when we're together,
and so we decided let's make this a spectacle and
make it a big Halloween show because that was the

(53:19):
date that was available. So we're like, let's do it. Okay,
So that should be a lot of fun, costumes, the
whole nine. Oh.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
I love it. I love it because yeah, Welizabeth and
I were talking about that and we have, you know,
some some notice to gather up some folks and I
love that.

Speaker 3 (53:35):
Yeah. Good good.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
So I have a question. So you are heavily in
the Christian music scene, the folk music scene. You are
a drag queen. So how much if any, because those community,
the folk community especially can be very supporting. How much
pushback have you gotten?

Speaker 3 (53:59):
Oh? Oh, I mean plenty but not but not from
people who matter, not from anybody who's paying my bills.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
Good.

Speaker 3 (54:08):
I mean, I get it obviously all the time online
and that is easy for me personally to like just
let that slide. I'm in the Enneagram eight personality type.
If that means anything to you or to the listeners listening,
which just means that if I don't know you and
you're critical of me or my work or whatever, yeah whatever,

(54:30):
I don't know you like, your opinion means buckus. But
if I do, if I if somebody I respected and
loved and trusted came and was critical or had something
to say, it would absolutely cripple me. So it's like
that's the flip side of it, right, But yeah, no,
I it is an interesting You're right. It's those three

(54:51):
kind of communities, and I honestly spend most of my time,
I think, with people in the folk music community, and
I think that is because it's where most of my
heart is. I mean, I've been writing songs since I
was nine years old. I've only been doing drag for
five years. So while I love drag and I love
the drag community, I just have more connection I think

(55:14):
to folks singer songwriters, and so I love that space
and that's where I hang out. I go to conferences,
I go to, you know, competitions, I submit my music
for competitions, all that kind of stuff, and it's a
lot of fun. But I do I spend a lot
of time in those other two circles as well, and

(55:35):
it's nice to be reminded on a regular basis that
there are churches out there doing really good work. And
those are the ones who obviously call me and bring
me into to sing to their congregations and their communities.
And then I love any chance I do get to
interact with other drag artists because those are more rare
because there's not a lot of people who are doing

(55:56):
what I do, which is, you know, just like like
we've already said that the traditional singer songwriter path and
plus drag, you know, right, So any chance I get
to interact with other drag artists is a lot of fun.
And just every once in a while it works out
like I've got I can have a drag artist open
or you know, I was just at a pride fust

(56:18):
in there was this Randolph, Massachusetts outside Boston, and there
was a whole family of drag queens mostly queens. No,
there was there was a king actually, so drag artists
who were they had to show right before. They had
the stage right before me, So I got to hang
out with them and see them do their thing, and
then they stuck around and saw me sing, and it

(56:40):
was yeah, it's I love. I love the drag community.
I know there's a reputation for you know, the cattiness,
the infighting, the bitchiness, all that, but I haven't experienced that,
to be honest, I mean here and there, But overall,
I've been amazed to see how much drag artists are
like like applauding and championing and being supportive of what

(57:04):
I do.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
Which is some computer with them, you know, like pageant.

Speaker 3 (57:09):
I have not the pageant world.

Speaker 1 (57:11):
But you know no, that was always my experience too,
and some of them got God loved them. Are still alive.
We get to see each other once in a while.
I want to see a flamy Grant Martha Graham Craft
or get out of my head just setting here thinking
the two of you would be amazing together.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
I was literally just thinking that, Okay, well let's make
it happen.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
Martha is yeah, a Philadelphia artist who has her own
distinct version of drag. Funny as hell sings live as
a band with her.

Speaker 3 (57:45):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
Yeah, I could see that you two should meet each
other or yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:51):
Well good, maybe when I come through in November or
October weekend.

Speaker 1 (57:55):
I would love that.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
That'd be great.

Speaker 1 (57:57):
Yeah, I just thought of that.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
I'm glad to hear. And John j Yeah, the beard,
the bearded ladies, the bearded ladies.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
Oh this is this.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
Oh see the wheels are turning, The wheels are.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
Turning, Yeah they are.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
But yeah, I'm so glad to hear that. You know,
you're you're being so well received, especially considering all the
nonsense rhetoric surrounding drag these days.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
It's fun.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
I had a real like moment today. I was scrolling
through Instagram and Alexandra Billings h she shut this one
person down when they were talking about drag.

Speaker 3 (58:42):
She was like, as she does, as she does.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
Do you think that drag is inherently sexual because you
view women as sexual objects? So any performance of femininity
is automatically sexualized?

Speaker 1 (58:55):
Is that it?

Speaker 2 (58:56):
And that was like, yes, that is it, that's it,
that's it.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
You know, I want you to keep using the words
grooming whatever the other one was, what was the in
and thank you an indoctrination because that's where it really happens.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
That's that's the thing about this current version of white
evangelical mainstream Christianity in America. Everything that they accuse us of,
they are actively doing yeah times one hundred, Like I mean,

(59:35):
you know the grooming accusations alone, I mean it's you
don't have to do any research at all to uncover
hundreds of usually male white dudes working in evangelical churches
who have records for doing harm to children or or

(59:58):
yeah exactly, yeah, and then you know there's like one,
there's like one drag queen as a record for that.
Like I mean, it's just like y'all are literally projecting
the worst of your own community onto the people that
you see as your enemies.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
And because we're just yeah, no we're not. And that's
we have to use those words often. But you know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
It's that same thing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
Pointing to us while they're doing that, like go look
at them right while I do this.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
Well, if you're a liar, you think everyone's lying. If
you're a thief, you think everyone's trying to steal from
you so exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
Yeah, if you're grooming children to live in your cult
and to not question authority and to abide by your
very rigorous standards of what gender and sexuality look like,
then you're going to think other people are doing that too.
We're actually doing the opposite over here, but we're freeing
the children. We are liberating the children to be exactly

(01:01:03):
who they are meant to be.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
So love and life, well, and that's you know, I'm
waiting for it to dawn on them, because they got
to know, right, we grow up in heteronormativity, We grow
up with everything around us giving us the message they
want to give us, and we're still queer and gender

(01:01:30):
expansive no matter what you do. And it works the
same in the reverse. And why don't you get that?
And usually I think the reason they don't get it
is because of what they're hiding.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
Mm hmm, always right, Always, the loudest voices are always
going to be the ones who are probably the most repressed, right, or.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
As I like to say, the squeaky wheel likes to
get bent over increased.

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
It's true, love it, that's true. But you know that's
the thing to just kind of keep flipping that narrative
and saying, well, what's really going on, folks? Right, exactly
is over there, but okay, point to me, point to me,
you know exactly. And I just I you know, I

(01:02:23):
sat there at that show going, oh, thank god, she
has this huge talent to go with this. I really did.
I was like, you know, oh, thank you. I'm so
grateful that you do. Yeah, because I just I do
see it. You know, you having the capacity to fill

(01:02:44):
bigger and bigger rooms because you are bringing authenticity, you
are bringing good humor. You know. I love the substitution
with the emojis is more fun than saying the words
that was funny, fantastic.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
People like it better, they really do.

Speaker 1 (01:03:01):
Yeah, or rooster would work here. Yeah, it's great. But
it was just fun and good. And you know how
I get.

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
Like, I think, next time, just put the emojis on
flash cars.

Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
And just I'm a fan.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
Just one side's an egg plant.

Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
I like this. We're elevating, We're elevating the show.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
I love it. Right, Yeah, props, Let's let's add a
couple of props. Why not?

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
Because I need more things in my car. Right's drive
across the country.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
You probably don't. Yeah, probably don't.

Speaker 2 (01:03:45):
So you're a musician, who do you listen to? Who
do you like?

Speaker 3 (01:03:50):
Mmm? Good question?

Speaker 2 (01:03:53):
What's in your rotation right now?

Speaker 3 (01:03:56):
Right now? In my rotation honestly is a lot of
my friends. So, like I said, I've been hanging out
in that that folk music, that singer songwriter community, and
it's such a beautiful, wonderful community and I've been so
embraced there and made so many good friends. So my
my favorite songwriter right now is Spencer Ljoy. They are

(01:04:17):
a queer artist who's now based in Northern California and
but but comes from Michigan and h just truly the best,
the best lyricist I I know out there right now.
So Spencer Religioy the Pears. They are an incredible group
harmonies for days beautiful I A I R E A

(01:04:37):
R I Love Sorry A I R E A R
H A I R pairs P A and And they
get that name because it's there. It's it's three in
the band and two of them are twins, and the
third one is also a twin, but they're twins, just
not in the band, so they're they're pairs. You know.
That's that's the pun I like.

Speaker 1 (01:04:59):
I like it rash.

Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
Who else am I listening to right now? I mean
Chris Matthews definitely, and Heather May. Both of them are
making incredible, incredible music, like really good activist folk people
in that folk activist tradition. Yeah, I mean, I don't
listen to a ton of popular music. I never really

(01:05:21):
have because I grew up on Christian music.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
Oh yeah, so no secular music for you, got it exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:05:26):
I was only allowed to listen to what I could
find at our our local Christian book store, which is
called the Carpenter Shop listening. Christians love their drag names too,
so I yeah, I grew up on Amy Grant and
Jennifer Napp and Caman's Call and all that good stuff
from back in the day. And then when I did

(01:05:48):
finally start listening to, you know, reaching outside the world
of Christian music, what was big was Lilith Fair. You know,
it was like ninety seven ninety eight. That's when I
started finding, you know, music that the broader world was
listening to. And so it was those female singer songwriters. Baby,
I've always been drawn to Ryl Crow, Tracy Chapman, Sarah
mclach when Natalie Merchant is probably my favorite songwriter.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
Of all time.

Speaker 3 (01:06:11):
Okay, so yeah that's I dig it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
I like it. Yeah, yeah, great stuff. What so you
moved back to Asheville. Family is still there, is that right?

Speaker 3 (01:06:26):
Yeah? Most of my family's in the area. Yeah, mostly
around here?

Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
Is that? I mean obviously this was the religion of
mom and dad. What's it like now?

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
It's, Uh, it's tricky. My siblings, you know, we have
we're really tight. So it's really nice to be close
to them again and be connected with family that way.
And then the rest of the relationships are tricky, and
they have they each look different.

Speaker 1 (01:07:00):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
I have more more interaction, uh with you know, one
parent then I do the other, and and that interaction
gets kind of, you know, limited to the things that
we can handle together, you know. And it's there's growth there,
and there's there's lots of room for growth for sure,

(01:07:21):
and you know, I'm just taking it day by.

Speaker 1 (01:07:24):
Day, right, That's all we can do.

Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
That's always exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
It. It's tougher and tougher right now, you know, because
it really is people who were never political suddenly got political.
And I don't like the prioitics, and so it's really
hard to have a conversation for very long. Yeah, because
your folks want me dead. So it's kind of a
non starter, you know, for me exactly, and that it's tough.

(01:07:54):
It's tough, and you know, it's also I think difficult,
and I plugged that you handled this brilliantly, but to
not talk about any of it, to not say, yeah,
fascism is it's kind of here is to be in

(01:08:16):
a bubble somewhere, like like a fantasy bubble, and it's
I think we have to acknowledge. And the thing I
keep coming back to is, but I think we always
have to have hope. We have to find some hope
that otherwise it's hard to say what the point is,
you know, whether it's hope for a better day or

(01:08:37):
hope that everything does end and every storm runs at
a rain or whatever that might look like. Yeah, you know,
it's a delicate balance right now.

Speaker 3 (01:08:46):
It is. Yeah. I just find myself really trying to
live for the joy of this moment. You know. For me,
I really do believe that we're here to experience joy.
And there's so many obstacles to that, obviously, But there's
so many opportunities to create it too. Yeah, and any

(01:09:08):
chance I can, I'm going to be in pursuit of that.
I'm going to be in pursuit of joy, spreading it,
sharing it, and experiencing it with as many people as
I possibly can. And I came across a quote recently
that I have been leaning hard into and it was
just somebody the name is sam Ames am Ees. I
don't know who this person is. It's literally one of

(01:09:30):
those things that got put in a you know, an
Instagram post and then repost it and reposted so many times,
so I don't actually know who Sam Aimes is, but
I have held onto this thing that they wrote, and
I'm gonna, you know, not quote it perfectly, but it
says we have to we cannot predicate our fight on winning.

(01:09:50):
We have to find something deeper than hope to hold
on to, and that is the fact that our fight
is our humanity. That is, like fighting for each other
and for the good of people who are who are
oppressed in some way like that is how we hold

(01:10:12):
onto our humanity whether or not we win. Because here's
the hard truth of it, right, is that we're not
gonna win. We're going to lose more than we win.
And that has historically been the case with the queer community.
I mean, it's only been in very recent decades that
we've had any modicum of anything remotely looking like equality

(01:10:36):
or equity in the world. Right, And.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
So for.

Speaker 3 (01:10:43):
Hundreds of years, thousands of years, queer people have been born,
lived a life, and died under the same kinds of oppression.

Speaker 1 (01:10:54):
Right, depending on the culture, truly.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):
Yeah, Oh, depending on the culture.

Speaker 1 (01:11:00):
Because colonial colonialism, for you know, where that's been. Yeah,
we have, we have had a hard road to hoe. Yeah,
you know, where we've been integrated into the culture, We've
been celebrated as healers and this wentman and you know,
caregivers m hm. Native American culture. You know, there was
always a place for.

Speaker 3 (01:11:21):
Us, Yeah, holding the wisdom of the community, like all
of it. Yeah, being able to bring a perspective that
is broader like that has been You're right, that has
been honored in a lot of different cultures. But in
a lot of cultures as well, that oppression has been
long lasting. And like you know, like so many of

(01:11:42):
our ancestors, especially here in the in America, in this
this country that we invented four hundred years ago, uh,
two hundred years ago, you know, like generations have come
and gone and still found a way to find joy

(01:12:03):
and live a joyful life under oppression that is, you know,
almost intolerable, right, And so that's for me, like I
just I've really clung to that, I've clung to that
idea of we were fighting, not always to win, because
we just know that we won't every time, but we

(01:12:25):
fight because if we don't, we've lost the reason for being,
We've lost our humanity, we've lost our connection to each other.
And so I don't know, that's been a lot to
me in recent weeks as or months really, as we've
like seen what's been unfurling in our you know, from
the very top of our government. Yeah, it's hard, it's

(01:12:47):
hard times, and I'm not trying to gloss over that.
And at the same time, I'm insistent that I will
live a joyful life.

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
Absolutely, you know, and that's always been you know, or
at least in many of the recent generations. That's the story.
We will have joy, we will have elegance and beauty
and laughter, and you know, we will make the very
best of everything we do. And you know, that's why

(01:13:18):
we are most of your culture. Yeah, exactly right, and
then you hate us for it. But but we are
and we're going to keep doing that. And there is
a certain resilience and strength that comes from saying, I
know what the fuck you think of me, I don't care,
Like literally, I don't care. Yeah, you know, it's I

(01:13:42):
gave you the time, and that's what I don't think.
You know, I gave them that time. And this is
true of every queer and trans person that ever walked
through religion. First, you know, I tried it your way.
Every single thing you told me to do, I did,
and it didn't work. Honnie. I'm still here. I'm still

(01:14:05):
exactly who I knew I was inside, only I had
to like scrape off all these layers of what you
added to my identity to find it again.

Speaker 3 (01:14:15):
Yeah, absolutely that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:18):
You know, we're tempered and ral shit, So we're we're
gonna be a lot of fun to hang out with.
I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (01:14:26):
I mean talk about full circle moments though, right this
that's coming back to the ideas of these high demand
religions that raised us. You know, they they do tend
to put all their hope in a future like a
next life right, everything sucks here, it's hard here, whatever,

(01:14:47):
But Heaven's going to be fill in the blank, right,
like the Golden streets, the pearly gates, all all that.
And I think that is another shift that we bring
to the culture.

Speaker 1 (01:14:58):
Is like.

Speaker 3 (01:15:00):
I don't know what maybe I mean, I hope so,
but I'm not going to count on that. I'm not
going to waste again, sorry to keep quoting Mary Oliver here,
but I'm not going to waste my one wild and
precious life hoping that I'll get some mansion with I
don't even really want, like golden streets Like that does
not appeal to me. You know what appeals to me

(01:15:21):
drag brunch, hanging out with my friends, having a cocktail,
just participating in life. Yeah, all of that. So I'm
going to have my heaven now, thank you very much.
And if there happens to be another one later, cool,
But I'm not going to miss the opportunity to experience
that joy here in now, right.

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
And that's I mean, there's a cornerstone right there and
a philosophy, you know, and to have come through so
much of it, but that's the thing you did, and
you learned all that and you had to examine it,
and you had to pick up each thing and say
this doesn't fit and then keep moving. So yeah, you
get your joy, Yes, absolutely, and thank god you did,

(01:16:05):
because too many folks in our communities don't get there.
You know, I know part of your story is having
put yourself in exodus. And you know, I tell everybody
just go watch Pray Away on Netflix, just go find
the story and want it. But how many of us

(01:16:25):
don't really survive that exactly? And it's too many.

Speaker 3 (01:16:30):
It's too many, too many.

Speaker 1 (01:16:32):
I am thrilled and thankful you did.

Speaker 3 (01:16:35):
Oh yeah, me too. We're the lucky ones. We're the
lucky ones. And what a gift to be able to
say that we survived that, because yeah, you're right, too
many of our siblings did not, and so so we
live to honor them, to honor their legacy. And the

(01:16:58):
joy we find is the joy that they should have
had to. So it's all. It's all connected.

Speaker 1 (01:17:04):
Absolutely. So what's the best way for folks to purchase
your music and learn more about you?

Speaker 3 (01:17:13):
Honestly? However, whatever way is easiest for people to listen
to it. So if you're already Spotify subscriber, yeah, do it. There. Obviously,
there are ways that support artists better than others. Streaming
artists don't make nothing from streaming unless you know, I
don't know Taylor Swift. I'm sure she makes some good
money from it, but indie artists don't. So if you

(01:17:36):
do care about that kind of thing, just buying the
music on band camp or you know, purchasing coming to
a show honestly is the best way, Like, come see
me when I'm in your area, buy some merch at
the merch table, that kind of thing. But at the
end of the day, if you're streaming it on Spotify,
that's still going to help in a lot of other

(01:17:56):
ways with algorithms and that kind of stuff too, So
don't stop streaming. But right, yeah, and.

Speaker 2 (01:18:02):
If you wanted to learn more about you, where could
we follow you?

Speaker 3 (01:18:06):
I'm just Flamy Grant on all the things. I'm the
only one out there real easy to find Fla Grant,
And my website has all the information about where to
find me on the road. It's Flameygrant dot com. And yeah,
I hope, I hope folks will come come to the shows.
That's where we have the most.

Speaker 1 (01:18:23):
Fun, absolutely, and we're going to plan for October thirty
first here and yeah I love that blamey. Thanks so
much for taking this time.

Speaker 3 (01:18:35):
Thank y'all. I really appreciate you having me on.

Speaker 1 (01:18:38):
You are a singular talent.

Speaker 3 (01:18:41):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:18:42):
Here's hoping the next time we sit down and talk
it's you know, because you're making time for us. Because
because we met you before, it all just took off
because I adore your work. True.

Speaker 3 (01:18:58):
Thank you so much. I really appreciate y'all.

Speaker 1 (01:19:01):
You have been listening to Full Circle the podcast. I'm
Martha Madrigal.

Speaker 2 (01:19:06):
And I am Charles Tyson Jr.

Speaker 1 (01:19:08):
Thanks and we'll see you next time.

Speaker 2 (01:19:09):
Bye every one. Full Circle is a Never Scurred Productions
podcast hosted by Charles Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal, produced
and edited by Never Scurred Executive Produced by Charles Tyson
Junior and Martha Madril. Our theme in music is by
The jingle Berries. All names, pictures, music, audio, and video
clips are registered trademarks and or copyrights of their respective

(01:19:33):
copyright holders.