Day 11

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Please be seated. The record will show the presence of
the jury, the defendant, and all counsels. The defense may
call its next witness.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Defense called Lisa.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
Young your last name?

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah, d A R. You do saw me swear? The
testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Speaker 4 (00:26):
So helpe you guy.

Speaker 5 (00:26):
Yes, thank you.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Please walk around and have a seat. May proceeed.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Good morning with Daydonie. Can you give us your name
please yet? Lisa DAYDONI? And uh did you have what's
your maiden name? Andrews? So are you married now?

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (00:51):
And who are you married to? Dominic Daydoni? And how
long have you been married? About two and a half years.
What do you do for a living?

Speaker 5 (01:01):
I work for Prudential Insurance as a short term disability
claim manager.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Okay, are you on leave right now?

Speaker 3 (01:07):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:08):
For what parent to leave? They had a baby four
months ago. Okay, congratulations. I want to talk to you.
What how old are you right now? I am twenty five,
twenty five? Okay. I want to talk to you a
little bit about Travis Alexander. Okay, did you know him? Yes?

(01:32):
Now originally you and Travis did you meet at church, Yes,
we did through church activities.

Speaker 6 (01:38):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
And were you both in a singles ward?

Speaker 7 (01:41):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Can you describe for me what that means? A singles ward? Yeah,
it's just a place where members.

Speaker 5 (01:47):
Of the Church of Jesus Christ of Laturday Saints would go.
I started going when I was eighteen. That's the age
you would start going. And then there are single members
that go up until their age thirty. Well, when they
turned thirty one is when they would go to a
different ward.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Okay, So a singles word. I assume if somebody gets
married then they would not be in the singles word anymore. Okay,
So in other words, you wouldn't be in a singles
word now, correct? Okay? And what's the age drive in
between you and Travis? A little over ten years?

Speaker 7 (02:20):
All right?

Speaker 2 (02:20):
So you said you started when you were eighteen? Is
that yes? Yes, yes, that's okay. When was it Were
you eighteen when you first met Travis? I believe?

Speaker 1 (02:34):
So?

Speaker 5 (02:35):
Okay, I'm sorry, I don't know exactly when I met
him exactly, you know, the first time, but yes, that's
when I started going to the singles word And I
know just from knowledge that he was in the singles
word when I was eighteen, so probably met in passing
at some time, okay.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
And how many people were in the singles word? I
don't know. I mean.

Speaker 5 (02:56):
Two to three hundred. I really don't know the exact
amount through Okay.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
But we're talking in the hundreds, right, so it's not
just twenty people, correct. And so when you first met
Travis and he would have been around twenty eight or
twenty nine? Yes? How long did you guys know each other?

Speaker 8 (03:17):
Well?

Speaker 2 (03:17):
Did you know each other at all before you started dating? Yes?

Speaker 5 (03:20):
Probably, you know, about a year before we started seeing
each other just one on one, we'd see each other
in large groups okay.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
And is that you'd see each other like in church
activities type thing, yes? During this year. Did you ever
go to his house for any of the movie nights
and things like that? And is that before you were dating?

Speaker 8 (03:40):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (03:45):
And how would you classify that year before you started dating?
How would you classify your relationship with Travis? Were you acquaintances?
Were you friends? I would say we were friends friends? Yes? Okay.
Did you talk to.

Speaker 5 (03:57):
Him very often occasionally? Yes, you know at those gatherings.
Never really, It wasn't until.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
Later that we became you know, started texting or talking
on the phone. Is that how when your relationship started
to develop more? Yes. Now, before you dated Travis, you
were dating someone by the name of Steve Bell. Yes.
And how long did you date Steve Bell? About four months?
And that was so you dated mister Bell for a

(04:27):
total of four months, yes, okay. And that was about
how long before you officially started dating Travis.

Speaker 5 (04:35):
From the time I broke up with Steve until I
started dating Travis was about six months, okay.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
And during the time that after you broke up with
Steve or mister Bell to the time that you officially
started dating Travis, those six months, those are the time
when you would still classify your relationship as a friend
with Travis. Yes, okay. And did you have any more
contact with mister Bell? Yes occasionally, And okay. Was mister

(05:01):
Bell part of the church? Yes, so he's also Mormon. Yes.
I think the first time that you well, I guess
mostly for that year while you were friends with just
friends with Travis you were. Did you hang out mostly
in groups with him? Yes. One of the first times

(05:24):
that you did something alone with him was that after
you had just lost a job. Yes. Overall, And did
he talk to you about PPL yes. Was that a
suggestion for a job for you? Yes? Did you ever
get involved in PPL?

Speaker 1 (05:43):
No?

Speaker 2 (05:44):
And by PPL I mean prepaid legal Yes? I don't understand.
All right? Now, overall, when you started dating Travis, you
dated him for about what a total of about eight
months sustained? How long did you date Travis for? I
would say about seven to eight months, okay? And about
when did you start? July? Roughly July of two thousand

(06:08):
and seven, all right? And so when did you break up?
Middle end of February of two thousand and eight, all right?
And god, I just wanted you to be able. When
you were dating each other, did you did you email

(06:31):
with each other? Yes? Did you text with each other yes?
Did you instant message yes? And did you also call
each other yes the old fashioned way yes? Okay? And
besides that, then, did you also go on dates with him?

Speaker 4 (06:46):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (06:48):
At the time that you were dating him? Did you
have an email address? Lisa dot Andrews eighty seven?

Speaker 1 (06:57):
Overalled?

Speaker 2 (06:59):
That means you can answer yes, all right? And when
you were dating Travis, was it kind of an on
and what kind of relationship was it?

Speaker 5 (07:11):
We we had broken up a few times and gotten
back together a few times.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
Okay, So would you would you classify it as on
and off? Yes? Uh? And when when you both when
you broke up, who did the breaking up? Usually it
was me? And during the times that you broke up
with him, did he continue to text you afterwards? Sometimes?

Speaker 9 (07:40):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (07:40):
All right? And did you end up start talking to
each other again? Yes? And that would be until the
final breakup right correct. And after the final breakup in
the end of around the end of February. Did you
have contact with him after that?

Speaker 5 (07:55):
I did, after the final breakup for a little bit.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
Okay. When you first started dating Travis, let's see, well
you how old were you when we first started dating?
I was nineteen, all right? And did he get really
serious on you? Uh?

Speaker 4 (08:19):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (08:20):
He started talking about marriage fairly early, okay.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
I mean he started talking about marriage how early, within
a couple of months or how long?

Speaker 5 (08:30):
Probably I can't remember exactly, but earlier than I was
comfortable with at.

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Age nineteen, okay. And were you concerned about just turning
eighteen and then having the thought of getting married.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
Right away sustained?

Speaker 2 (08:45):
Did you not want to did you want to get
married at that point? In time. Not at that point
in time. Why not?

Speaker 5 (08:52):
I felt like I was too young and immature and
I needed time to live my life before I was
tied down to to be married. All right?

Speaker 2 (09:01):
And did you tell these things to Travis? Yes? Is
that one of the one reasons why you broke up
with them the first time?

Speaker 5 (09:08):
I wouldn't say that would be the reason the first time,
but in later conversations I would say that was the
main reason we broke.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
Up the second time. Okay, let's talk about the first
time that you broke up. What was the reason for that?

Speaker 5 (09:23):
It came to the understanding that he was cheating on me.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Do you know who he was cheating with? Yes? Who
is that? Jody Thereus? And how did you learn that?

Speaker 5 (09:37):
A former roommate of his had told my sister, who
then told me?

Speaker 2 (09:41):
Okay, so, mister Alexander didn't tell you that?

Speaker 5 (09:43):
No?

Speaker 2 (09:45):
And did you confront him about that after I had
broken up with him? Yes? All right? And after you
broke up with him, did he continue to text you
or email you? Yes? And was he persuasive about trying

(10:06):
to get back together with you? Yeah? I mean in
in the way that he said he still cared about
me and was he persistent? Would you say yes? And
eventually did you get back together with him?

Speaker 4 (10:20):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (10:22):
And when you got back together with him? About how
how were how was your relationship at that point? It
was better?

Speaker 5 (10:32):
We had addressed a lot of the concerns that I
had at the beginning.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
He explained that that he wasn't standing all right. Did
you did you feel that you could trust him at
that point? Yes? And so did you? And so you
felt did you feel comfortable getting back into relationship with Yes?
About how long were you in a relationship with him

(10:58):
until you broke up with him? Again? I don't remember, okay.
Can you say whether it was months or days? I
would say months, okay? And so then what was the
second reason that you broke up with them? Well, what
was the reason that you broke up with them for
the second time?

Speaker 5 (11:16):
He was getting more serious about marriage and I wasn't
ready for that, okay.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
And at this point, Travis would have been about twenty
nine or thirty. I believe he was thirty by this point, okay.
And in the Mormon religion, how is thirty? Is thirty
an older age to not be married? Or how has
that looked upon in my opinion, yes, okay? Is that

(11:46):
how you were raised to believe? I guess, yeah, okay,
all right? And did Travis express to you that he
was concerned about being older and not married?

Speaker 4 (12:00):
Maybe?

Speaker 5 (12:01):
I I don't know exactly, but I mean he was
he was concerned that he wasn't married yet he wanted
to be married.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
I don't know if it was exactly because of his
age or just where he was in his life. That
was one of his goals. He wanted to be married. Okay.
And was he telling you that he wanted to marry you? Yes? True,
your state did just not for the truth of the matter, asserted.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
For a world you may answer, yes, uh?

Speaker 2 (12:25):
And so is this something that it got to the
point that it concerned you to the point that you
broke up.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
With them sustained?

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Did you break up with them?

Speaker 5 (12:33):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (12:33):
And why did you do that for the second time?

Speaker 5 (12:36):
I broke up with him because I felt that if
he felt like he was in a point in his
life that he did want to be married, he should
explore other options because I was.

Speaker 9 (12:44):
Not ready at that point.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
Alright. And is that what she told him? Yeah? And
was this around December of two thousand seven?

Speaker 9 (12:55):
Would you say, sure, sustained.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Do you remember when this was not exactly I would
say maybe end of November, maybe early December, I'm not sure, okay.
And at this point during your relationship, were you telling
him that you loved him? I believe so, all right?
And was he telling you that he loved you? Yes? Uh?

(13:20):
And at this point now that this I guess the
second part of after the first breakup, before the second
did you did you believe that your relationship was exclusive?

Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (13:35):
All right?

Speaker 2 (13:35):
So do you believe that that you weren't Were you
going to date anybody else?

Speaker 5 (13:40):
No?

Speaker 2 (13:41):
Okay? And did you believe that Travis was whether Travis
was dating anyone else, I believed.

Speaker 5 (13:47):
It was exclusive between the two of us, Okay, it's monogamous,
all right.

Speaker 2 (13:54):
Did you know that he still had contact with miss Arius?

Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (13:59):
And did you know that he was in contact with
another woman, Deanna Reid? Yes? And how did he contact them?
Did you know.

Speaker 5 (14:07):
A lot of it was phone calls and text messages
and I knew there were emails.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
As well, all right. And this was happening at the
same time that were you dating him at this time? Yes?
And this was after the first breakup? Yes, and did
you know that these were women that he had previously dated. Yes,

(14:32):
but at this point did you think that they were
romantically involved at all?

Speaker 5 (14:35):
No?

Speaker 2 (14:35):
And he never told you that, right.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
S instinct.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Did he ever tell you that he was texting these
women that and by the way, I'm also involved with
them romantically. No, he never said they were involved romantically. Okay.
At a certain point though, did this kind of wear
on your relationship? Yes? Okay? Why did it?

Speaker 5 (15:03):
I felt that if we were to be in an
exclusive relationship, he nor I should be texting or calling
members of the opposite sex as often.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
As as they had done. Okay. And did you ever
have at some point did you ever have suspicions that
he might have been cheating again Yes, at the time
that you were dating Travis. Did you ever take any
trips with him? No?

Speaker 5 (15:34):
Did you feel well, I'm sorry, yes, I just remember
just one.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
Okay. Where did you go? We went to Sedona?

Speaker 1 (15:41):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (15:41):
Okay? Was that an overnight trip? No, it was just
a day trip, all right? In your religion at Travis
was a Mormon also, right, okay? In your religion, how
is it looked upon for two single people to go
on an overnight trip together. It doesn't look very good,
all right? And did you did you come to find

(16:06):
out that Travis took trips with Jody? Yes? And that
was that? What time period was that, you know, like
as far as a month or anything?

Speaker 3 (16:16):
Or what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (16:17):
Was it during the time that you were still dating Travis?
And did you know where they went a few of
the times? Yes? Oh? Where were those.

Speaker 9 (16:30):
Sustained?

Speaker 2 (16:33):
And did he go on several trips?

Speaker 3 (16:35):
Then?

Speaker 2 (16:35):
As far as you understand, I believe I knew of two,
okay and both of the did he ever ask you
to go?

Speaker 5 (16:44):
No?

Speaker 2 (16:47):
Do you understanding where these overnight trips sustained?

Speaker 5 (16:53):
Did?

Speaker 2 (16:53):
It's not? For the truth of the matter, assorted, I
misstated it. Was it your understanding that Travis took Jody
on overnight trips?

Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (17:09):
At some point? Was it after your relationship with Travis
that you confronted him about these trips?

Speaker 5 (17:16):
No?

Speaker 2 (17:16):
At some points it was during okay? So did you
did you ever tell Travis that you found out about
these trips?

Speaker 6 (17:24):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (17:25):
All right? And did he explain it to you in
a way that you thought that they were that you
felt it was an innocent trip? Here's I'm leading so
that there's no.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
Heresay over You may answer, I'm.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
Sorry, could you repeat it? Sure? Sure? Did he explain
it to you in a way that you felt that
it was an innocent trip? Yes? Okay. I When I
talk a little bit about what you know about Jody Arius, okay, okay,
when do you remember when you first met her or

(18:03):
would have seen her?

Speaker 5 (18:04):
I don't remember the exact time, but it was that
I believe it was a church activity.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
A family home evening night okay, and family home in
the evening? Is that something that the singles word would do? Also?

Speaker 3 (18:16):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (18:17):
And when we I think I asked you earlier about
going to Travis's house for cookies and movie nights, would
those be nights like family home evening nights? They would
be somewhat similar.

Speaker 5 (18:29):
However, the family home evening was actually sponsored by the
church and was a church activity, and the other activities
at Travis's house were just spent friends getting together.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
Oh, okay, okay. So when you first did you meet Jody?
The first time you saw her? I believe so? Okay?
And during when you first met her to your knowledge,
was she were she and Travis dating?

Speaker 5 (18:53):
When I had spoken with her, she said that, did
you come to find out that she was dating Travis?

Speaker 4 (19:00):
Overorlding?

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Answer yes or no?

Speaker 2 (19:06):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 5 (19:06):
Could you repeat the question?

Speaker 2 (19:07):
Did you come to find out that, uh, Travis and
Jody were dating when you first met Jody?

Speaker 1 (19:14):
Question overorlding? Answer yes or no.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 5 (19:22):
It's there were differing stories, so I.

Speaker 9 (19:25):
I don't know what I understood at the time.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
I understood they were not dated. I'm sorry, it's okay.
You understood that they were not dating, correct, Okay. Did
you ever did you ever learn that they had dated?

Speaker 6 (19:41):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Okay? And when you saw that? Were there different times
that you saw Jody and Travis together? Yes? Was that
always in a public setting?

Speaker 5 (19:53):
No, there there was a time there a time or
two at his home okay.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
And when those times at his home where there are
other people around? Yes? About how many people, like a
small gathering or a larger gathering, it would depend.

Speaker 5 (20:09):
I'm sure on one occasion it was a smaller gathering,
one that I.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
Can recall, okay. And what would you include to be
a smaller how many people would you say, in ten
to fifteen people? Okay? So, during the times that you
saw Travis and Jody together, did you ever see Travis
being affectionate with Jody? No? Did you ever see Jody
try to be affectionate with Travis? Yes? Did you see

(20:34):
her trying.

Speaker 4 (20:34):
To hold his hand?

Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (20:37):
And did you see Travis do things like push her aside?

Speaker 5 (20:40):
No?

Speaker 2 (20:41):
Or brush her hand aside? Is what I mean? I
don't recall that, Okay. Did you ever see basically him
not reciprocating the affection yes? And as an example, I
guess did you ever see her do something like try

(21:03):
and reach for him and him just walk away? I'm
not sure of.

Speaker 5 (21:08):
That example, but I did see her trying to, like
you said, show affection and he did not.

Speaker 9 (21:14):
Show it back.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
Okay. And when we talk about showing a faction, what
do you mean? What kind of things was she doing?
I do remember one particular time at his house.

Speaker 5 (21:30):
He was trying to talk to the large group of
people that well, I mean the smaller ten to fifteen
people that were at his house entertaining guests, and she
as he was talking to everyone, she would be all
over him and hugging on him and have her arms
around him while he was talking to everyone else. And
he did not reciprocate that, okay.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
And during this time that you first met Jody and Travis.
I guess would this have been in the timeframe before
you and Travis dated?

Speaker 8 (22:01):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (22:01):
So would that have been before July of two thousand
and seven? Yes? And when did you join the Singles
Word the summer after I graduated?

Speaker 5 (22:12):
I graduated high school in two thousand and six, so
I would have gone in in June of two thousand
and six.

Speaker 2 (22:18):
Okay, So do you have an idea of what the
timeframe was when you first met Tony? I don't, okay,
but based on what we know with you joining the
Singles World and when you dated Travis, it would do
agree it would have been somewhere between July two thousand
and six to July two thousand and seven. While you
were dating Travis, he always professed he broke.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
Up in times sustained.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
During all three times that you dated Travis during the
eight months of on and off relationship, you never had
sexual relations with him in other words, intercourse?

Speaker 1 (22:57):
Right?

Speaker 2 (22:59):
And uh? Did he always profess to be a virgin?

Speaker 4 (23:04):
Objection here saying leading he just did.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
You?

Speaker 2 (23:11):
Did you want to have him? Well, let me let
me ask you this. After he died, you learned that
he was not a virgin?

Speaker 4 (23:21):
Right, And here's the thing.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
At some point, were you shocked to learn that Travis
actually was not a virgin?

Speaker 4 (23:37):
I'm gone the form of a question. That was the question.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
I think that's what we discussed.

Speaker 9 (23:45):
Approach m.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
H Okay, miss stay Tony. Let me let me ask
this after Travis's death, Were you shocked to learn that
he was not a virgin? Yes? Throughout your relationship with him?
Did you always feel like you were doing the right thing?

Speaker 1 (24:17):
Did you fall overall? Do my answer?

Speaker 9 (24:24):
Could you repeat the question?

Speaker 8 (24:25):
Sure?

Speaker 2 (24:26):
Did did you always feel that you were doing the
right thing with regard to premarital sex? Yes? Okay, alright,
I want to talk to you a little bit more about,

(24:46):
uh one of the times with Travis. Did you say
earlier that you and Travis used to email quite a bit? Yes?
And and text also? Yes? And at times did you
tell did you email Travis things about your relationship? Yes?

(25:15):
Did you may approach?

Speaker 7 (25:16):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (25:19):
Can I ask you to repeat?

Speaker 10 (25:20):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Can I ask you when YouView that do you see
the email at your step the top? Yes? Alright? Is
that an email? Uh from you?

Speaker 5 (25:28):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (25:30):
And who is that email to? To Travis? Alexander can
Do you see the date at the top. Yes?

Speaker 5 (25:36):
When is that Sunday, the twenty third of September two
thousand seven.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
Alright, do you recognize that? Yes?

Speaker 11 (25:45):
Alright?

Speaker 7 (25:46):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Didjit may approach you may? And when I showed you
for the record basics? Did it the books to the margins?

Speaker 1 (25:54):
You said it the book three?

Speaker 2 (25:58):
You remember writing this email? Yes? Okay, Judge defense would
move to in terms of number three D find into evidence, sir.

Speaker 4 (26:07):
Sort runch.

Speaker 2 (26:12):
Good, okay, alright, So I I know you got to
see the email just a little bit ago. I'm gonna
ask you some questions about that email. Okay, okay. Do
you remember in this email that you were talking to
Travis about breaking up?

Speaker 4 (26:27):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (26:28):
And uh that wasn't the right thing to do. Yes?
And did you hope that he came to the same
conclusion you know I discussed I'm not reading it.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
Al alright, complete your question.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
Did you hope that he came to the same conclusion? Yes,
so that he would not continue it. Why did you
hope that he would come to the same conclusion.

Speaker 5 (26:57):
Cause I I thought it was the right decision to
break up and that I don't know, you don't wanna
talk to people after you break up with them.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
Right, okay?

Speaker 3 (27:06):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (27:06):
Did you not want him to text or email you
anymore then? Not at that time? No. Did you talk
to him about s the way you felt starting off
the relationship yes, and that you started off wrong? Uh? Yes,
that's an email. Did you feel that way because, uh,

(27:33):
because you thought you might have tempted him to kiss
you might have thought you thought that you might have
tempted him to kiss you too soon? Yes. Did you
talk to him about the fact that you both were
making out for too long? Yes? And by making out,

(27:53):
what do you mean kissing? Okay? Okay, I just want
to be there. And did you talk to him about
how each time that you made out it progressively got worse? Yes?
Did you talk to him about that when you used
to make out with him in the beginning, you didn't

(28:13):
think about sex, Yes, but eventually it would creep into
your mind. Yes. And was that something that you were
not comfortable with? Correct? Did you talk to him about
that you knew that sex was on his mind from
the very beginning? Yes. Did you tell him that you

(28:38):
took complete responsibility for not respecting the priesthood yes? Did
you feel like it was your fault. I felt it
was a mutual thing. Oh, mutual? Okay. Did you talk
to him about that, whether you should have done a
better job to keep his thoughts clean?

Speaker 1 (28:59):
Yeah? Y?

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Did you feel that that was your responsibility to keep
his thoughts clean? I felt, again it was a mutual thing.

Speaker 5 (29:09):
Both of us were taking part in making out for
what I felt was too long and too passionately, I suppose,
and so both of us should have.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
Taken a step back. Did you talk to him about
that sometimes you felt that he wanted you just for
your body? I did say that in the email, and
that your kisses didn't mean anything to him. I did
say that in the email that you felt that it
was a way for him to let out some sexual tension.

(29:41):
I did say that in the email that he had
so much of Again, I said that, did that make
you feel used and dirty? I did say that in
the email, and that if you truly, if he truly
cared for you, did you tell him that it wouldn't
have been about passion and lust?

Speaker 1 (30:02):
I did say that.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Do you remember telling him that you had previously told
him to not grab your butt? Yes, and especially not
in public. Yes, but that he persisted in doing it.

Speaker 8 (30:19):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
Did it make you feel like he wasn't really listening
to you at the time?

Speaker 5 (30:27):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (30:28):
You talked to him about words that you didn't use
because he didn't like it? Yes? Were there certain words
that he didn't want you to use? Yes? What kind
of words he did not? I'm sorry he did not
like the words poop.

Speaker 5 (30:46):
Or crap or part Okay, I'm sorry, I'm.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
Sorry, I asked. Okay, So he didn't like those words.
And did you refrain from saying those words for him?

Speaker 6 (30:57):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (30:57):
All right? And but yet did you ask him not
to talk about sex so much? Yes? Uh, but he did?
He he didn't he did anyway?

Speaker 5 (31:11):
Right?

Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah? Did you feel like he it's like he didn't
care about how you felt, how we your feelings were
at the time. Yet did you tell him that you
thought it was vulgar and unattractive when a man talks
about sex as much as he did?

Speaker 5 (31:24):
I did say that in the emim.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
And did you tell him that you do? You know
he wants it, meaning sex, but he needs to be patient.
I did say that in the email. Is that because
you believed that he had not had any sex before?

Speaker 9 (31:40):
That's correct?

Speaker 2 (31:42):
Did you tell him that you'll g that he'll get
his turn someday. Yep. Did you tell him that there
were times when you felt that he was trying to
mold you to be a certain way that he wanted. Yeah,
and that you felt that he was pushing you uh
too much to be something that he wanted you to be.

Speaker 5 (32:02):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
Did you feel that he didn't appreciate you for who
you were at the time.

Speaker 5 (32:09):
Yes, and I I feel like this is all coming
out of context, so I'm trying to just answer their
questions the best I can.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
But if you, if you do, you need a copy
of it? Would that make it better? Yeah? Okay, sure
they approach jush. Yes, there you go. Thank you, Thank
you for telling me that, cause I I didn't know
you would remember that by amis, I'm on page too.

(32:39):
Did you tell him did you and I'm on the
top paragraph. Did you tell him that you felt like
he wanted he wanted you to be happy for him, Yes,
but that you didn't feel that he reciprocated that to you.

Speaker 4 (32:53):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
I I did say that in the email. Then he
asked for compliments often, Yes, that it would make it
almost impossible for you to keep giving them. And be sincere. Yes.
Did you talk about your trip to Sedona with you.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
O virul you may answer?

Speaker 2 (33:19):
And did you feel like he wasn't paying attention to
you on that trip at times?

Speaker 5 (33:26):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (33:27):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Did you tell him that? Uh? Yes? And did he
snap back at you but you should be grateful. I
don't believe he said you should be grateful. I in
in the email out of my frustration.

Speaker 5 (33:45):
I inferred that's what he was saying to me, But
I don't believe he ever.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
Said those words.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Oh, okay, all right. So but during the trip to Sadona,
did you tell him that that he wasn't paying attention
to you or that you were worried he was on
the phone too much?

Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yes?

Speaker 8 (33:58):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (33:59):
And did he comment back to you that sustained.

Speaker 4 (34:05):
Jitch?

Speaker 2 (34:05):
Maybe approach? Well, actually, that's okay, that's okay. Did you
talk about a time when he had got you got
home from California and he got home from Vegas?

Speaker 1 (34:18):
Approach?

Speaker 2 (34:21):
I continue, all right, And when you were talking to
him about the time that you met after you both
had just gotten home from out of state, did you
tell him about your concerns that you made out too intensely? Yes?
Did you also tell him that you thought you were
part to blame for that. Did you tell him that

(34:44):
you don't think that you have enough to agree upon
with each other to be a family.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
Approach.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
Did you express concern that you didn't share the same values. Yes?
And did you feel that that he shot your values down,
the values that you embraced he would shoot down at
the time, yes, And that was before you can even
express how you really felt. Yeah. Sometimes. Did you tell

(35:22):
him that it hurt your feelings when he told you
that it being a teacher is if that's what you
want to do with your life, but I think it sucks.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
Oh, that's good, counsel.

Speaker 5 (35:32):
True.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
Continue, did you talk to Travis about your goal of
wanting to become a teacher? Yes? And he didn't support
you in that, did he not at that time? And
how did that make you feel?

Speaker 9 (35:57):
Not good?

Speaker 2 (35:59):
Did it hurt your feelings? Yeah? Did you not feel
supported by someone that you were supposed to be loved by? Yes?
And when you wrote this email, it was was he
gone for a couple of days prior to the cemail?
I'm looking at the second paragraph. No, No, I wrote

(36:22):
this email. I had seen him that day when I
wrote this email. Okay, But prior to prior to writing
the email, I guess, had he been gone for a
couple of days that month? Are you referencing a para
trip to have a sup eye? Okay? Which is where
is that located? Page three?

Speaker 3 (36:41):
Second?

Speaker 2 (36:43):
I don't know if that was like right before the
email or when in relation to this email it was?
But yes, he did go on a trip, okay, that's
all I was asking you that he had been away
for four days? Yes, okay? And did that give you
time to think being apart from him? Yeah? Did you
tell him that you had been stressed out about certain

(37:04):
things but he didn't seem to be interested in your problems? M?
Third paragraph, third paragraph yes? And did that hurt your feelings? Yes?
Did you tell him that he overreacted about a lot
of things having to do with your trip? You say,

(37:29):
his trip, yes, in regards to this a SUPI trip, yes, okay.
And what did you mean by that?

Speaker 5 (37:37):
I don't remember what happened on his trip exactly, but
I think just one thing after another went wrong. I
don't recall the specific instance, but something like they had
car troubles and then this happened, and so and so said,
you know, something about the trip not being good or something,
and so it was just a lot of snowball effect.
His trip didn't go well, I suppose, okay.

Speaker 2 (37:59):
And so in the email, are you telling him that
you thought he was overreacting to those things going wrong
with his trip? Yes? And that when he overreacted that
that was not attractive to you. Yes. And then in
bold letters, you said that he didn't tell you that

(38:20):
Jody went with him on that trip, right, correct? Did
you suspect it? Yes? And because you suspected, did you
ask him I don't know, I'm sorry, go ahead, No,
go ahead.

Speaker 5 (38:36):
I was just going to say, I don't know if
I asked specifically if Jody was going, but I know
I asked, oh, who's going on.

Speaker 9 (38:43):
The trip with you?

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Okay, he didn't tell you Jody? Correct? And so because
he didn't tell you that Jody was going on the trip,
you trusted that she wasn't going. Correct. Did you feel
that he intentionally hid it from you that she was
on the trip? Yes? Did you tell him that you

(39:07):
thought he was being selfish when he wanted to have
conversations with you late at night and you were too
tired to talk Uh, yes, I did say that. Did
you tell him that you thought that he was ignoring
some of your phone calls?

Speaker 4 (39:23):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (39:23):
At one instance.

Speaker 12 (39:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
Do you remember Do you remember was he on the
trip at the time that he was ignoring your calls?
Do you know what that refers to you?

Speaker 3 (39:30):
No?

Speaker 5 (39:31):
It was we were going to go on a camping
trip with our singles ord and I was with the
friends that we were going to be driving up with,
and he he was late, and we tried calling to
see what was going on, and he didn't answer phone calls.

Speaker 2 (39:48):
Okay, did you talk to him about that he got
upset with you because you wouldn't let him lay on
you when he was carsick when I was carsick you.

Speaker 5 (39:59):
Yeah, yes, yeah, I wasn't feeling well and he wanted
to like cuddle in the car and I wasn't feeling
well and yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
And did he get upset about that? Yeah? And did
you tell him that you thought that his frustration was
visible and immature. Yes? And did you tell him that
you didn't feel that you deserve to be treated that way? Yes?
And that behavior seemed to continue throughout the rest of
the camp out.

Speaker 12 (40:26):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
And then it seems that did you go over to
his house on a Saturday where you actually got along.
Did you talk about that, Yes, I talked about that
in the email okay. And you felt that things were
better between the two of you, Yes, But then did
you have some more time to think about it? Did

(40:49):
you tell him that you had more time to think
about it? Yes? I told him that in the email, okay.
And did you tell him that he that you were
sick of hearing about Jody Arius? Yes? And is when
he talked about Jody often enough? Is that when you
began to suspect that he was still seeing her? I

(41:12):
don't recall.

Speaker 5 (41:15):
When.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Okay. Did you tell him that you were sick of
hearing about her? Yes? Okay. And then did you tell
him that that's when you began to suspect, Yeah, it's
quoted there in the email. Yes, okay. And that that
he told you nothing was going on, Yes, but something
inside of you felt otherwise.

Speaker 5 (41:37):
Yes, And that something inside of me was actually his
roommate had told me. Oh, And I had promised his
roommate that I would not say anything because his roommate
was afraid.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
He might have a bad interaction with with Travis at
the time to see a fight or something. Okay, so
you didn't want to give up the roommate, that's how
you knew. Yeah. Were you upset telling him that what
woman would hold on so long after a sense of
without any sense of reassurance? Yes? Were you talking about Jody?

(42:13):
I think I was talking about both of us? Oh? Okay?
And did you tell him that if he really cared
about you, that he would tell Jody to back off? Yes?
And regardless of their past. Yes. Did you tell him
that you feel you can't trust him anymore? Yes? At

(42:35):
that time, I did say that, and that you felt
that at this point that relationship, your relationship could go
no further. Yes. Did you tell him that to please
not to respond? Yes? Did you tell him that you
felt cheated and lied lied to? Yes? And did you
tell him that you didn't wish to hear anything more? Yes? Now,

(42:55):
this was in September of two thousand and seven, right, Yes?
But did you when did you actually do the have
the final breakup between you and Travis?

Speaker 5 (43:06):
February mid to late February of two thousand and eight.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
So after this email, did you still continue to talk
with him? Yes? And that was was that by texting
it was all of the above, okay, texting, calling, and
emailing instant message in person. Okay. So did you continue
to see him then?

Speaker 6 (43:28):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (43:28):
Were you separated at all for any period of time
after this email? Yes? How long? M I don't know,
maybe a couple of weeks okay. And during that couple
of weeks separation, did you have any contact with him
at all? I'm not I'm not sure.

Speaker 3 (43:46):
All right?

Speaker 2 (43:47):
And then eventually did he start contacting you? Yes? And
did he feel badly about the breakup? Yes? And did
you feel that he was kind of clingy to you?

Speaker 5 (44:02):
I would interpret it more as he was trying to
show that he cared and that he wanted to talk
about the things that I had mentioned here, and at
least if we if we couldn't date any longer, he
would be okay with that, as long as he could
address some of these issues that I set out of anger.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
Okay, do you remember do you have any idea about
how long it took you to write this email? No?
And after you sent this email, did you contact him
at all the next day or anything like that? I don't.
I'm not sure. I don't think so. Okay, did you
ever contact him shortly after this email to say I'm sorry,

(44:40):
I take a doll back.

Speaker 5 (44:42):
Nope. But when we when we had spoken about it,
I felt these issues were all resolved, okay.

Speaker 2 (44:50):
And so once you felt the issues were resolved, is
that when you started dating again? Yes, and there was
It was about a couple of weeks, k Yeah, something
like that okay. And so I guess put uh cu
based on the timing of this femail, then we would
be into what October or October and November? So you

(45:12):
started dating again probably October okay? And just so I
have timeline wise, what breakup is this? This is the first,
this is the first one, okay. And so then so
by October November you're back together again, is that right? Yeah?

(45:33):
October October okay? And then in December is that when
you have the second breakup? Yeah, late late November or
early December okay? And is that second breakup because he
was too serious with you? Yeah? He wonted marriage and
I did not, okay? And how long when you broke

(45:57):
up in de was it December that you broke up
in late November or early December? I'm not sorry, I
keep okay, I'm sorry, I keep getting it all right.
So late November early December, were you separated for any
period of time? I'm not sure. Maybe, I don't know.
Would it have been as long as the first breakup separation?

(46:18):
I don't think so.

Speaker 5 (46:20):
We neither of us were out of town during that time,
I don't think. Okay, what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (46:25):
Neither of us were out of town like for the
first breakup.

Speaker 5 (46:29):
Shortly after he had gone on in trip somewhere I'm
not sure where, and I had gone somewhere with my
sister and our roommate. So I know we were separated.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
As far as at least a state apart for that time,
So okay, I'm not sure. As far as the second breakup, Oh, okay.
With a second breakup, do you know if you had
maintained any kind of separation by way of text messages
and emails?

Speaker 4 (46:54):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
I don't think so okay. So did he continue to
text with you? Yeah, but it was definitely reciperd by me.
We still loved each other. It was just we were
in different places, right, okay? And so both of you
were talking to each other, yes, and in when was
the final breakup? Mid to late February of two thousand

(47:18):
and eight. Yes, okay, and did you do the final
breakup that was somewhat more mutual? Okay, Judge, this might
be a good time.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
All right, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take the
noon recess at this time. Please be back in the
designated area at one twenty five. Actually, now that you
have your key cards, you can let yourself back into
the jury room. Just be back there by one twenty five.
Remember the admonition, are there any questions, have a nice lunch.
You are excused. Let's bring in the jury. Please be seated.

(48:07):
The record will show the presence of the jury and
the defendant and all counsel. You may cross examine man.

Speaker 4 (48:14):
One of the things can be told us was that
the reason you broke.

Speaker 3 (48:17):
Up at the third time, the final time, was that
there were strange things.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
That were happening.

Speaker 4 (48:22):
Correct.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
Correct.

Speaker 3 (48:24):
And one of the things that was strange was that
at one point you were living in an.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
Apartment, right, it was a it was a house.

Speaker 7 (48:31):
It was a house.

Speaker 3 (48:32):
Yeah, and one night there was or or the door
to that house had a security device. When somebody would
come in, it would make a ringing sound. Correct, Yes,
And it was sometime in the evening, that this front
door made a ringing sound. Right, Yes, you went downstairs
and mister Alexander was over at your house. Correct, Correct,

(48:53):
And that both of you went downstairs to investigate and
found nothing correct.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
Correct.

Speaker 4 (48:57):
The door was opened, though I unlocked.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
Correct. There's more backstory to that.

Speaker 3 (49:05):
So then after that, though, one of the things that
happened is that you asked as a result of that,
you asked mister Alexander to spend the night with.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
You, didn't you, Yes?

Speaker 4 (49:17):
And he, in fact did spend the night with you,
didn't you.

Speaker 6 (49:20):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (49:20):
And during that night he never made any sexual advances
to you towards you right.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Correct.

Speaker 4 (49:27):
He may have kissed you, but there was none of
this passionate kissing correct.

Speaker 11 (49:30):
Correct.

Speaker 4 (49:30):
You were not in the mood for that that night, right, right,
and neither was he was he correct?

Speaker 3 (49:35):
And he spent the whole night with you because of
this incident, right yes. And then no time did that
night did he touch your rear or hind quarters?

Speaker 4 (49:44):
Did he?

Speaker 3 (49:45):
And at no time did he touch any other part
of your any other sexual part of your body?

Speaker 1 (49:50):
Correct?

Speaker 4 (49:50):
Correct. The other incident that you went.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
That created, or that you say where it.

Speaker 4 (49:58):
Was strange that was?

Speaker 3 (50:00):
Was that one day you were over at mister Alexander's house, correct, Yes,
And it was towards the time that you were about
to break up with him for the third time, right.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
Roughly, yes.

Speaker 4 (50:12):
About how much time before that.

Speaker 5 (50:13):
Was it, I'm not sure of the time frame exactly,
but I think maybe in December, late December, early January.

Speaker 3 (50:20):
Possibly, And during that time you were in the kitchen, correct, yes.

Speaker 4 (50:24):
And was mister Alexander in the kitchen?

Speaker 3 (50:26):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (50:27):
And while the.

Speaker 3 (50:28):
Two of you were standing there in the kitchen, did
somebody come into the house unannounced?

Speaker 2 (50:32):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (50:33):
Was that the defendant areas?

Speaker 7 (50:35):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (50:36):
And is she the person that's sitting there to my
left with the sort of tan top and the glasses.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (50:41):
And when she came in to the house, she saw you,
and she saw mister Alexander correct, yes.

Speaker 4 (50:48):
And what entrance did she come in through the front door?

Speaker 3 (50:52):
And when she came in and saw the two of
you there, she turned around and just left, correct?

Speaker 2 (50:57):
Yes, she ran out, She ran out.

Speaker 3 (50:59):
And these incidents were the reasons why you indicated that
strange things were happening, and that's why you ended up
breaking up with him, right, Yes, you were asked about
this particular email that you sent in two thousand and seven.

Speaker 4 (51:12):
Do you remember talking about that before lunch?

Speaker 2 (51:14):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (51:15):
And one of the things that was talked about, you Redoctor,
that email was that.

Speaker 3 (51:21):
Something about tempted to kiss and that sort of thing.
Do you remember that the email referenced that. Yes, Well,
isn't it true, ma'am that mister Alexander wouldn't kiss you
at the start?

Speaker 4 (51:29):
Would he?

Speaker 6 (51:30):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (51:31):
And in fact, the person who initiated the sexual contact,
that that's what it is, was you, right?

Speaker 4 (51:36):
Yes, you told him to kiss you, didn't you.

Speaker 3 (51:38):
Yes, And he was the person that had been holding
off right, Yes, And.

Speaker 4 (51:44):
You believe that the reason that he was holding Officer
was in part because of your religious beliefs.

Speaker 6 (51:48):
Correct.

Speaker 3 (51:49):
Yes, there was this particular issue involving him touching you
in the rear end of the butt, I think is
what was said, right, Yes, after you mentioned it to
him in this email.

Speaker 4 (52:00):
Did he ever touch you there? Again?

Speaker 2 (52:02):
Not unmerited?

Speaker 4 (52:05):
In other words, it was welcomed to that. Correct.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
And during this whole time while you were with mister Alexander,
and in the beginning, there came a time that the
two of you began to kiss right, yes, And.

Speaker 4 (52:22):
You mentioned something in this.

Speaker 3 (52:24):
Email about sex was nowhere on my mind, and something
to the effect that.

Speaker 4 (52:30):
You felt that he was too interested in sex. Do
you remember that? Yes? Actually, what was going on, man.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
Is that you and he were engaging in what was
a very normal form of showing affection in kissing, right, yes.
And during the time that he was kissing, and again
not to get too much into this, he achieved an erection, right. Yes,
you did not massage his erection right. Correct, He did
not massage his own erection correct.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
Correct.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
It was a biological response to your lips, wasn't it.

Speaker 4 (52:57):
Correct?

Speaker 3 (52:58):
And that at that time, because if you're inexperience, you
thought that he should have controlled his penis from becoming
tomescent or getting big.

Speaker 4 (53:12):
Just because he was kissing you. You thought that's what.

Speaker 3 (53:14):
The problem was, right, yes, yes, And it was because
of your inexperience correct.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
Correct.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
And with regard to this whole time, in the beginning,
the first time that you're with him at he never
at any time forced you to do anything sexual that.

Speaker 4 (53:33):
You did not want to do.

Speaker 8 (53:34):
Correct.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
Correct.

Speaker 3 (53:35):
And with regard to the fact that he talked a
lot about sex, it was mostly in a joking manner
in response to certain things that may have been said.

Speaker 6 (53:43):
Correct.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
Correct.

Speaker 4 (53:44):
So it wasn't like.

Speaker 3 (53:45):
He was saying to you, we need to get down baby,
or anything like that, was it correct?

Speaker 4 (53:50):
It was more in response to the environment that was
around me.

Speaker 3 (53:53):
Correct.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (53:54):
He never touched you, in other words, in an aggressive
physical way, did he.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
No, he did not.

Speaker 4 (54:00):
And during the second.

Speaker 3 (54:02):
Time that you were together with him, the issues that
are addressed in the email, were they partially addressed?

Speaker 4 (54:08):
In other words, did he begin to pay more attention
to you?

Speaker 6 (54:11):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (54:12):
And did he begin to be, in other words, caring
of how you felt.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (54:17):
And in fact you indicated that he was the one
that wanted to get married right. Yes, And at that
time he was doing everything he could to conform to
what you wanted.

Speaker 4 (54:28):
Correct.

Speaker 3 (54:28):
Yes, It wasn't the other way around that you were
doing what he wanted. Now, he was doing what you wanted.

Speaker 6 (54:33):
Correct.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (54:34):
And at times.

Speaker 3 (54:38):
When things would come up, he would and I'm talking
about a sexual fashion. He was the one that actually
would stop because he was afraid that you would be
adversely affected.

Speaker 4 (54:53):
In that area.

Speaker 6 (54:54):
Correct.

Speaker 4 (54:57):
Sustained with regard to certain times while you guys were
involved with him. Did there come a time when he
stopped and you wanted him to go a little bit forward?

Speaker 2 (55:05):
Yes, So he was the one at some point that decided,
right yes.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
Without telling what it was. He gave you a reason,
right yeah, And it was a valid reason to you,
it wasn't it.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (55:18):
And the same thing during the third time that you
got together with him. During that time, at no time
did he he foist himself upon you sexually?

Speaker 4 (55:27):
Did he?

Speaker 2 (55:27):
No, he did not.

Speaker 3 (55:28):
If he kissed you, it was something that was welcomed
by you, correct, correct, And if you kissed him, it
was something that was welcomed by him, right.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (55:37):
Did you when you were in public with him, was
it a situation where you were glomming onto him, grabbing
onto him, hugging him, all that stuff? Is that what
you were doing in public or not?

Speaker 2 (55:47):
No?

Speaker 3 (55:48):
When you describe what the defendant was doing, is that
what she was doing when he's speaking with these other individuals. Yes,
he was having a conversation with other people at that time, right, yes,
And he was engaged in talking whatever it was, and
they were watching.

Speaker 4 (56:01):
Right yeah. And she came up on him and.

Speaker 3 (56:04):
Just started to sort of put herself on him and
what appears to be a socially inappropriate manner, right yes,
And that would be your assessment of that situation, right yes.
And even when you broke up with him these other times,
the first few times, did he ever scream at you
that he was upset.

Speaker 4 (56:24):
That you'd broken up with him?

Speaker 2 (56:25):
No, but he did.

Speaker 4 (56:27):
Want you back, didn't he.

Speaker 6 (56:28):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (56:29):
My understanding or viewing of what was going on, it
appears like it was a situation where of and I
understand that he was older, but a couple of high
schoolers going back.

Speaker 4 (56:37):
And forth with each other. Would you have qualms if
I characterized it that way.

Speaker 2 (56:41):
No, That's exactly what it was.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
And as part of being in this high school relationship,
you had very strong feelings, didn't you.

Speaker 4 (56:49):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (56:49):
And you expressed him sometime in a somewhat immature fashion,
didn't you.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (56:53):
And one of them was sending him this email, wasn't it?

Speaker 2 (56:56):
Absolutely?

Speaker 3 (56:56):
And that's why you kept saying at that time that's
how you felt, right yes. And in retrospect, do you
think that perhaps some of the comments that you made
were a little unfair to him?

Speaker 2 (57:06):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (57:07):
And ma'am, with regard.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
To everything that he did to you, how you.

Speaker 4 (57:11):
Feel and how you know the circumstances and the situation
that you were in with.

Speaker 3 (57:17):
Regard to the hibit two or five, do you think
in your mind, because you were the one that is experiencing,
do you think.

Speaker 4 (57:23):
That what do you what is it?

Speaker 12 (57:25):
Do you think.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
It's okay? Counsel approach? Counsel approach may continue, sure, ma'am.

Speaker 4 (57:39):
With regard to you.

Speaker 3 (57:43):
Were being asked about how you were agreed about the
fact that he may have been cheating with the defendant,
do you remember about that?

Speaker 2 (57:49):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (57:50):
And you were asked about you know how many times
he had to cheat? Correct, I mean you were asked
about that, right, and that was part of the breakup,
right yes? Do you do you think that it is
appropriate given everything that they claim that he put you through,
do you think that it is appropriate to take a
knife and slash somebody's stroke?

Speaker 4 (58:15):
Approach?

Speaker 1 (58:16):
You may approach.

Speaker 3 (58:30):
One of the things that you were asked about was
mister Alexander's virginity. Do you remember that, Yes, And you
were asked about whether or not you had a belief
about his virginity and a belief about his virginity afterwards?

Speaker 2 (58:45):
Right, yes?

Speaker 4 (58:46):
And this were these issue about his virginity.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
Where's something that you and he discussed, correct, Yes, And
with regard to the issue of virginity, that was something
that was discussed by somebody else after this particular murder happened.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
Right, Pardon I didn't hear your objection. I'll say killing rephrase.

Speaker 3 (59:15):
And you had some conversations with some people involving his
virginity after the killing, right, Yes, And with regard to
whether he was or he wasn't a virgin throughout this
whole time that you were with him, did he aside
from items certain items when he wanted to make out

(59:36):
with you, that sort of thing. Did he treat you
with dignity and respect throughout this whole thing?

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (59:40):
At any time did he touch you by hitting you inappropriately?

Speaker 4 (59:44):
And the person who started this kissing thing was you? Right?

Speaker 2 (59:48):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (59:48):
I don't have anything else.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
Redirect I know that the initial time that you all
that you and Travis both started KI you're saying that
you initiated that is that? It's true? Okay, but you kissed,
You and Travis kissed more than once, yes, many times? Right? Yes,
And according to your email, there were many times that

(01:00:12):
you weren't just kidding, You were making out very passionately. Yes,
and those were the times that you started to feel uncomfortable.

Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
Right, sustained.

Speaker 5 (01:00:21):
Did you feel uncomfortable during those times early on because
of my inexperience I was nineteen.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
Okay, you were nineteen and he was twenty nine or thirty. Yes.
And during one of those times you said that he
achieved an erection. Yes, And is that what made you uncomfortable? Yes?
And once he had an erection, he didn't stop ditty
stop kissing you.

Speaker 4 (01:00:43):
No.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
When the initial breakup you said was because you found
out he was cheating, right, Yes. And when you got
back together with him, did you believe that he had
stopped cheating? Actually, I got back together with him because.

Speaker 5 (01:01:03):
I understood that he had not cheated and I had
gotten faulty information.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Oh okay. The falty information you said came from his roommate. Yes,
and so mister Alexander said that it was fealty information.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
Sustained.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
So you believed it to be You believe that the
roommate wasn't telling you the truth? Yes, okay, And is
that why you got back together with mister Alexander? Yes?
But in reality, did you know that at the same
time he was dating you, he was sleeping with miss arias.
I did not know that. Did you know that at
the time after you finished dating him? No, so you

(01:01:39):
never knew that.

Speaker 5 (01:01:40):
I had my suspicions, but I didn't know theod details
of their relationship, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
And you did know that they were going on he
was taking her on trips right, Yes, and those were
overnight trips. Yes, so overall, I and during one of
the times that you said, one time you were asked
the question about being over at Travis's house when Jody

(01:02:07):
came over, Yes, you said that. Did Jody come through
the front door? Yes? And and she walked right in?
Did she walk right into the house. Yes? And once
she saw you, is that when she turned and she
ran back out? Yes? And after she ran out, Travis

(01:02:27):
was with you too, right, yes? And after miss Arius
ran out, did Travis run after her? Yes? And Travis
was gone for at least a few minutes, wasn't he? Yes?
And you don't know what happened or what Travis said
to miss Arius?

Speaker 7 (01:02:43):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
No, I do know she had gotten in her car
very quickly though, and had gotten away. Okay, But you
don't know Travis was gone for at least a couple
of minutes, right. In other words, he didn't just run
to the door and then came back, all right, So
he ran outside, yes, okay? So in other words, he
felt it he must have felt it important to chase her.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Objesson Stegulary sustain.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Uh which roommate was it that gave you, supposedly the
false information? John?

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
Hepport?

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
And you were asked, well, after you broke up with Travis,
did you date anybody else?

Speaker 4 (01:03:21):
Objessin youse.

Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
This goes to the fact that Travis was calling her
overruped Were you dating anybody else when Travis was calling you? Yes? Okay?
And that was after you had broken up with Travis. Yes?
And is is that part of the reason why you
didn't wanna answer the phone answer his calls? Not really?
Okay alright? But you did not wanna answer his calls

(01:03:47):
right right, alright? And you said that, uh. You you
were asked questions about uh believing that Travis Travis was
a virgin, Yes, mkay. Uh. Despite despite your belief that
he was a virgin, he talked to you a lot
about sex, Is that right?

Speaker 5 (01:04:09):
I Occasionally we'd contemplated marriage, so sex would inevitably come up.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
Okay, But during your email you discussed that it made
you uncomfortable at times, right right, Very early on, after
that those issues were completely resolved, okay. And after the
first breakup, when you thought he was cheating and then
you got back together, it was it was just within
two months or so that he was talking about marriage, sustained.

(01:04:37):
How many months did it take before he was talking
about marriage after the first after you got back together
after the first breakup, it it wasn't very long. I
don't know the time frame exactly, but I would say
between breakups it was only two months, So you may
be correct in saying it took two months or so
to talk about it, okay. And when he was talking

(01:04:58):
about marriage, it was serious and that it concerned you, sustained,
reconcerned about it. Not not for myself.

Speaker 5 (01:05:11):
It was more I wasn't ready he was, so maybe
he should explore other options if he was that serious
about it at the time.

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
I was happy just dating at the time, okay, all right.
And this was just a month or two after you
had broken up with him for allegedly cheating on you,
right right, all right, thank you?

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
Nothing for the judge, all right appears there is another
juror question. I have a number of Drew questions here. Counsel,
please appro to stay downy. The jurors have some questions
for you. Did someone tell you that Travis was texting
and calling Jody and another female?

Speaker 5 (01:05:52):
No, Actually, Jody and another female had texted and called
several times we were together. Jody called numerous times. It's
almost as if she knew we were together at the time.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
Did you know this before you started dating Travis the
second time?

Speaker 8 (01:06:14):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
I was aware of the calls and the text.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
Was the email you sent to Travis before or after
you heard he cheated on you with Jody?

Speaker 5 (01:06:25):
It was less than twenty four hours after, so I
was very upset.

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
Did you ever refer to Jody Arias as a stalker
of Travis Alexander Yes. Did Travis ever call you names? No?
Did you personally feel threatened by Travis?

Speaker 5 (01:06:47):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
Was Travis ever abusive.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
To you No?

Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
Did he ask you to have sex with him?

Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
Did you feel pressured to do anything?

Speaker 5 (01:06:59):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
Did Travis ever make sexual advances to you while you
were dating?

Speaker 6 (01:07:07):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
Just all of us was making up.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
How do you define cheating?

Speaker 5 (01:07:14):
What I understood it to be, and what I would
still understand it to be is if you are in
a committed relationship and you, whether you're kissing or any
other sexual activity, is going on outside of that committed relationship,
I would consider that cheating.

Speaker 1 (01:07:35):
If you were shocked to hear Travis was a virgin,
why did you break up with him after you found
out he was cheating on you?

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
I'm sorry, could you read that one again?

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
Yes? If you were shocked to hear Travis was a virgin,
why did you break up with him after you found
out he was cheating on you?

Speaker 5 (01:07:56):
No, I believed him to be a virgin, and so
I broke up with him because I had understood he
had done whatever it was with Jodie. That's what I
had believed, and then he had told me that was
not the truth. So I did get back together with
him after that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:13):
Did you feel that Travis job interfered with your relationship
with regard to travel in phone calls?

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
Any other questions from the jury follow up, this will not.

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
Miss Daidoni. You said that you had referred to miss
Arius as a stalker before. Is that right? Yes? And
during the time that you were with Travis, did he
say some crazy things about her. Yes, so he would
tell you these things. It's also from my own experience. Okay.

(01:08:56):
She also are you also, so you were there when
these other women would be texting or calling Travis. Yes,
during the time that you were together, you did have
a chance to see uh Travis's temper though, right, I

(01:09:21):
can't recall a specific time. Do you recall him telling
you that he was sorry that he scared you with
his temper? Right?

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
Approach you?

Speaker 2 (01:09:34):
Only what I'm asking is, do you remember uh Travis
ever apologizing to you for scaring you with his temper?
The only time I recall was after just do you
remember do you remember him saying that? Yes, one time? Okay,
and you just you told him that you didn't like

(01:09:55):
to see him like that. Yes, alright, that's I'll just
thank you. Mister Martinez.

Speaker 4 (01:10:04):
Why if you said that that he said you dead test?
Why did he said your death test?

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
You may the afternoon recess at this time, please be
back in the designated area at three twenty five. Please
remember the admonition you are excused.

Speaker 5 (01:10:24):
The jury.

Speaker 7 (01:10:26):
Did.

Speaker 1 (01:10:27):
The record will show the jury has left the courtroom.
Mister Martinez, you may continue.

Speaker 4 (01:10:32):
Man, Why did uh, mister.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
How did you say in the dead tis is that
something strange had happened?

Speaker 4 (01:10:40):
And strange is that you may? Okay, Prometer of ju right,
he's not, that's not he's wodness, Why.

Speaker 1 (01:10:51):
May you may actually cause? What we're going to do,
We're going to take a recess and I'll meet with
counsel in the background. We have an additional question as well.
All right, thank you, please be seated.

Speaker 4 (01:11:12):
Jena would like to know marine record in bold.

Speaker 1 (01:11:15):
Yeah, we don't have a court reporter yet. Wait, just
we're back on the record. The record will show the
presence of the defendant and all council. Mister nurmi.

Speaker 6 (01:11:26):
As in relays the recent no better word force the
the stunt of mister Martinez asking a laid witness who
was not present on June fourth, two thousand and eight,
Mister Alexander attacked this areas whether or not per justification
defense was valid. He showed a picture Exhibit two O five.

(01:11:51):
There was Cerferently, their reaction is understandable. There was an
audible reaction from for victims family. I understand they probably
weren't expecting it, and like I said, the reaction is understandable,
but we would ask it if any further occasions such
as this, as I was referred to as the stunt

(01:12:13):
happens again.

Speaker 4 (01:12:14):
That they be moved to the victim room because we.

Speaker 6 (01:12:17):
Did and were able to see visible reaction on the
part of some of the jurors to do their reaction,
and I would supplement that is the motion for the
mistrial that I made a bench as.

Speaker 2 (01:12:30):
Well for the reason stated at the bench.

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
The motion from this trial is denied, and ladies and
gentlemen in the gallery are going to ask you once
again please to refrain, Please refrain from making any comments
or laughing or responding in any way to the testimony
or evidence. It could affect the outcome of the trial.
Thank you for your cooperation. All right, we're going to

(01:12:53):
bring in the jury and the witness may take this
steam and stay down. You please come forward and take
the stack. Yes, please be seated the record. We'll show

(01:13:27):
the presence of the jury, the defendant and all counsel.
Mister Martinez, you may continue.

Speaker 3 (01:13:32):
Isn't it true that the incident involving the out furst
of anger by Travis Alexander involved him throwing a telephone
in response to damage casts to his vehicle.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
Yes, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:13:50):
Any other questions from the jury for this witness, you
may step down. The defense may call the rext witness.

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
Your a Finnis College. Does A Ray Freeman.

Speaker 1 (01:14:04):
Right appears?

Speaker 5 (01:14:04):
So?

Speaker 9 (01:14:04):
Last name for you d ees I R.

Speaker 5 (01:14:09):
Ridge writing, you do solemnly swear the testimony you're about
to give will be.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
So help you God, I do. Thank you?

Speaker 1 (01:14:16):
Right, May Prissy, thank you?

Speaker 2 (01:14:25):
Can you tell us your name? Please? Does A Ray
Freeman and Ms Freeman?

Speaker 5 (01:14:29):
Are you in.

Speaker 4 (01:14:29):
Sedol right now?

Speaker 2 (01:14:31):
I am Where do you go to school?

Speaker 9 (01:14:32):
Brighamham University?

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
So you're a college student?

Speaker 8 (01:14:35):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
Uh? And are you a senior? Yes? I am uh.
In fact, were you on a mission?

Speaker 7 (01:14:45):
Yes?

Speaker 9 (01:14:45):
I just got back about six weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (01:14:47):
Where did Where did you go England? And what does
a mission mean?

Speaker 11 (01:14:52):
You spend eighteen months on as a not really an employee,
but as a volunteer. I'm talking to people about the
Church of j Is Christ of Latter day Saints and
the things that we believe.

Speaker 2 (01:15:07):
Okay, And so that brings me my next question. Are
you Are you a member of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter day Saints. Yes? Is that a Mormon?

Speaker 8 (01:15:18):
Yes? Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):
Thanks. Do you know who Daniel Freeman is?

Speaker 9 (01:15:22):
Yes, he's my brother.

Speaker 2 (01:15:24):
And so right now, I take it since you're going
to be why you are you living in Utah?

Speaker 11 (01:15:29):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:15:30):
At a point in time? Did you ever live in Gilbert?

Speaker 8 (01:15:32):
Yes?

Speaker 11 (01:15:32):
I live there from two thousand and one to two
thousand and eight.

Speaker 2 (01:15:37):
You know, I'm gonna ask you to just speak up
a little bit. Okay, I'm having a little trouble hearing you,
or you can move that. I think that Mike might
move a little bit, the flat one.

Speaker 9 (01:15:47):
Okay, exciting?

Speaker 2 (01:15:50):
All right, So I'm sorry. You said you lived in Gilbert.

Speaker 11 (01:15:51):
When from January of two thousand and one to January
two thousand and eight?

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
All right, in January two thousand and eight. Is that
when you love for your mission?

Speaker 11 (01:15:59):
No, that's when I moved to Utah to go to
Brighamham University.

Speaker 2 (01:16:03):
When you started at by Uka, when you lived in Gilbert,
did you belong to a church?

Speaker 9 (01:16:09):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:16:11):
And part of well, were you raised as a Mormon?

Speaker 8 (01:16:16):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
I was, okay, and so did you always go to church?
Is being raised that way? Yeah? Did you did you
know someone named Travis Alexander, Yes, I did. And how
did you know him?

Speaker 9 (01:16:29):
I knew him through my brother Daniel. I'm sorry what
I knew him through my brother Daniel?

Speaker 2 (01:16:34):
Okay? And did you know Jody Aris?

Speaker 9 (01:16:37):
Yes I did.

Speaker 2 (01:16:38):
How did you know Jody through Travis?

Speaker 5 (01:16:40):
All right?

Speaker 2 (01:16:41):
And do you see Jody here today?

Speaker 9 (01:16:43):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (01:16:43):
I do.

Speaker 2 (01:16:47):
And is your brother older than you? Is your brother.

Speaker 9 (01:16:49):
Older than you?

Speaker 2 (01:16:50):
Yes he is? Okay, all right? And so you met
Jody and Travis through your brother? Yes? All right? And
did you all go to the same church activities?

Speaker 9 (01:17:01):
Yeah, we didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:17:03):
Is that a yes, Yes, it is all right. Were
there times that that you would hang out with Jody
and Travis? Yeah, and your brother also yes? So did
you hang out with as the four of you together?

Speaker 9 (01:17:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:17:18):
We did.

Speaker 2 (01:17:19):
And were there times when you would hang out you
would have Jody and Travis would be there, but there
would be more than just you and your brother present
also yes? And during what time period are we talking?
When did you when.

Speaker 11 (01:17:33):
Did this happen from the beginning of two thousand and
seven until I left in the beginning of.

Speaker 2 (01:17:40):
Two thousand and eight, Okay, so for about a year
about a year?

Speaker 5 (01:17:42):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
The times that the times that you would see, uh
are hang out I guess with your brother Jody and Travis.
How often did that happen.

Speaker 9 (01:18:00):
Where it was just the four of us? Happened a
few times throughout that.

Speaker 2 (01:18:04):
Year, okay? And what about how often did it happen
when you'd s be in a larger group.

Speaker 9 (01:18:10):
That I I would say probably about every few.

Speaker 2 (01:18:13):
Weeks or so, okay. And when you would hang out
in a larger group, was that part of church activities?

Speaker 9 (01:18:18):
Sometimes it was, sometimes it was other activities?

Speaker 2 (01:18:20):
Okay? Uh. Besides these times that you hung out together,
did you also take a trip with where Jody and
Travis were there? Yes? Did you go to have a suplay? Yes?
We did? And where else did you go?

Speaker 9 (01:18:35):
We also went to Sedona and the Grand Canyon.

Speaker 4 (01:18:37):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:18:41):
When the four of you would hang out together, what
kinds of things did you typically do?

Speaker 11 (01:18:47):
The let's see, mostly I would say it was just travel,
like traveling or watching a movie.

Speaker 2 (01:18:56):
Or something traveling or watching a movie, yeah, okay, or
as I can recollect, I I know it is several
years ago. Yeah, all right, did you have a chance
to see or observe Travis and Jody together when it
was when it was just the four of you, either
on trips or just hanging out watching movies. Yes, And
how did Travis treat Jody when it was just the

(01:19:16):
four of you? I'm very well like And what do
you mean by very well? What did he do?

Speaker 11 (01:19:21):
They just seemed happy to be with each other, like,
very cudly and very much a couple.

Speaker 2 (01:19:29):
Was he affectionate with her?

Speaker 9 (01:19:31):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
And was she affectionate with him?

Speaker 3 (01:19:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
Did Travis ever seem to be clinging to Jody?

Speaker 5 (01:19:41):
Yeah?

Speaker 11 (01:19:41):
He he just he was always seemingly very very happy
to be with her whenever they were together.

Speaker 2 (01:19:48):
Okay. And did you ever have a chance to see them, Well,
you talked about when you you would all hang out,
but they would be in a larger group setting. Is
that right? When they were in a larger group setting.
How did Travis tre Jodie.

Speaker 11 (01:20:07):
When they were dating, It was about the same, like,
spend a lot of time together, but he would also
talk to a lot of other people.

Speaker 9 (01:20:15):
And then after.

Speaker 2 (01:20:17):
They hadn't been.

Speaker 11 (01:20:20):
After they weren't dating anymore, it wasn't they didn't spend
that much time together.

Speaker 9 (01:20:26):
And you talk to a lot of other people.

Speaker 2 (01:20:27):
Okay, and after they weren't dating anymore? Was that to
put a time frame in your mind? Was that after
the trip to the Grand Canyon in Sedona? Yes, So
before the trip to Grand Canyon and Sedona, is that
when they were dating, yes, I And so when they
were dating you said that he was he would talk
to her and hang out with her in larger group settings.

Speaker 9 (01:20:50):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:20:52):
And then after this trip, after they broke up, which
is sometime after Grand Canyon Sedona, did it seem did
he ignore her? Not that I saw, Okay? But were
they together in these larger group settings? Did they talk
very often to each other? Then?

Speaker 5 (01:21:12):
No?

Speaker 9 (01:21:12):
It was it was more that she was just someone
in the background.

Speaker 2 (01:21:16):
That what it was more that.

Speaker 11 (01:21:17):
Like if Travis was talking to someone, Jodi was just
someone in the background, not necessarily like.

Speaker 2 (01:21:23):
He wasn't really paying attention to her. So did you
see a chance did you have a chance to see
Travis interact them with other people? Also, would you characterize
him as flirtatious with other girls?

Speaker 1 (01:21:34):
I wouldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:21:37):
I want to talk to you about a little bit
more about the trips. Okay, do you remember when Grand
Canyon in Sedona?

Speaker 11 (01:21:45):
When that trip was I think it was it was
in the summertime around June or so okay.

Speaker 2 (01:21:52):
She had graduated after you graduated the June of two
thousand and seven? Is at the year okay? And was
who went on that trip?

Speaker 9 (01:22:02):
Jody, Travis, my brother and I?

Speaker 2 (01:22:05):
So just the four of you?

Speaker 3 (01:22:06):
Is that?

Speaker 1 (01:22:07):
Yes?

Speaker 8 (01:22:07):
Yes?

Speaker 9 (01:22:07):
Sorry?

Speaker 2 (01:22:09):
And how how did Travis and Jody get along during
that trip?

Speaker 9 (01:22:13):
Very very well?

Speaker 2 (01:22:14):
Did Was Travis affectionate with Jody?

Speaker 8 (01:22:17):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:22:17):
And vice versa? Is that a yes?

Speaker 9 (01:22:19):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:22:23):
And the other trip was to wear have a sup ye?
All right? And when was that?

Speaker 11 (01:22:33):
That was thirteenth of September, the fifteenth of September of
two thousand and seven.

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
And why do you remember those dates?

Speaker 9 (01:22:39):
Because the fourteenth was my birthday?

Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
Okay? So is that how the dates stick out in
your memory?

Speaker 9 (01:22:45):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:22:45):
All right? And who went to have a sup ye?

Speaker 9 (01:22:48):
Just the four of us again? Just Travis, Jody, my brother,
and I?

Speaker 2 (01:22:52):
All right? And was this so this was? Was this
trip after the trip to the Grand Canyon? Yes? So
would this have been after they brought yes, and anybody
else th or just the four of you?

Speaker 9 (01:23:05):
Just the four of us?

Speaker 2 (01:23:07):
And during that time when it was just the four
of you, how did Travis treat Jody just.

Speaker 11 (01:23:12):
Like they were when they previously were dating?

Speaker 9 (01:23:16):
It is no change.

Speaker 2 (01:23:17):
So did they act like they were dating?

Speaker 9 (01:23:19):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:23:20):
Did it? Did they act to you? Did it seem
like they were together? Yes? In September of two thousand
and seven, did you know whether or not Travis was
dating somebody else?

Speaker 1 (01:23:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 9 (01:23:32):
I thought he was.

Speaker 2 (01:23:34):
I thought it was dating Lisa Lisa. Do you know
Lisa's last name?

Speaker 11 (01:23:39):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:23:40):
Okay? So did you find that odd that Travis brought
Jody sustain in your in your religion? Is premarital sex allowed?

Speaker 9 (01:23:57):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:23:58):
Okay? And what's that called?

Speaker 9 (01:24:00):
It's called the law of chastity?

Speaker 2 (01:24:01):
Okay? So, and what about if two people, two single
people were to be traveling together? How how does that appear?

Speaker 9 (01:24:13):
Not good?

Speaker 2 (01:24:14):
Not good? Okay? Is that is that normal at all?

Speaker 12 (01:24:19):
No?

Speaker 5 (01:24:19):
Not really?

Speaker 2 (01:24:21):
And and I should preface this by saying, I'm speaking
specifically in in the Mormon faith. Yes, okay, so in
the Mormon faith. But if there's two single people traveling together,
what do other people? How has that looked upon?

Speaker 9 (01:24:37):
Normally? People just see it as kind of odd.

Speaker 11 (01:24:40):
Because we try very hard not to put ourselves in
situations where we might be tempted to have pre normal
sex and things like that.

Speaker 2 (01:24:49):
So you would normally not go on that.

Speaker 11 (01:24:52):
Especially if you're dating. It wouldn't be something that would
be viewed.

Speaker 2 (01:24:58):
Well, I suppose I'm sorry you say viewed well yes, okay?
And you said especially if you're dating.

Speaker 9 (01:25:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:25:04):
Why is that just because the temptations hired?

Speaker 11 (01:25:08):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:25:09):
And the thought is to keep away from the temptation?

Speaker 9 (01:25:11):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:25:14):
Did Travis claim to be a virgin?

Speaker 9 (01:25:16):
Yes, he didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:25:18):
Is that something he talked about? You made jokes about it,
jokes in what way?

Speaker 7 (01:25:24):
Like?

Speaker 2 (01:25:26):
Did you seem happy to be a virgin?

Speaker 9 (01:25:29):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:25:30):
And did he seem proud?

Speaker 11 (01:25:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:25:35):
Going back a little bit to have a sup Pie
to the trip to have a sup Pie? Was this
an overnight trip?

Speaker 9 (01:25:41):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:25:42):
Do you remember?

Speaker 6 (01:25:42):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:25:43):
Well, you said from the thirteenth to the fifteenth, right, okay, sorry,
so that would be two nights.

Speaker 9 (01:25:48):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:25:49):
And during this trip did you ever see an argument
between Travis and Jody?

Speaker 7 (01:25:59):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:26:00):
Oh, can you tell us what happened?

Speaker 11 (01:26:02):
We we were in the car and we were driving
to have a Supi and somewhere along the way, Jody
wanted to stop and take some pictures, so she got
out and took some pictures, and when she came to
get back in the car, Travis drove off a little
bit and made it so she couldn't get in the car.

Speaker 2 (01:26:20):
Travis was driving a little as a joke, you mean, yeah,
as a joke.

Speaker 9 (01:26:23):
And then he stopped and.

Speaker 2 (01:26:27):
She got in and and when and when Jody got in? Uh?
When Jody got in the car? Uh? Was she did
she say something like that wasn't funny?

Speaker 5 (01:26:39):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:26:41):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:26:42):
Overworld, I'm sorry you said what? Yes, she did say that, yes, okay?
And how did Travis respond to that?

Speaker 9 (01:26:53):
His his response was very w.

Speaker 2 (01:26:56):
Without telling me what Travis said, how was how did
he repond? His response was just very stark. I would
say it just it seemed wait, I'm sorry, I couldn't
hear what you said. It was very wet.

Speaker 11 (01:27:11):
I can't really find the best word stark, but just
it seemed a little over the top for the encounter.

Speaker 2 (01:27:19):
Okay, did he raise his voice?

Speaker 9 (01:27:25):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:27:26):
Yes he did, Yes, he did, all right, and he
had just been joking with her a few minutes before
a few seconds before. Yes, how did you feel about
his response?

Speaker 1 (01:27:40):
Sustained?

Speaker 2 (01:27:41):
Were you shocked? I was? And after his over the
top reaction. Did Jody responded all to him rephrase after
the response that shocked you?

Speaker 8 (01:28:03):
Did jo?

Speaker 2 (01:28:04):
Did Jody respond in any way?

Speaker 9 (01:28:06):
No, she just stayed out the window.

Speaker 2 (01:28:09):
She just stayed se Did she stay quiet? Yes? And
she stared at the window. Yes, alright, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:28:17):
That's all to cross examination with.

Speaker 4 (01:28:20):
Regard to this issue of uh pre marital sex. Communicate
it is not a lot by the Mormon the church,
the Mormon Church, right yes.

Speaker 3 (01:28:30):
And pre marital sex involves participating in passionate kissing, right yes.
It also involves lying on top of another person.

Speaker 8 (01:28:41):
Right yes.

Speaker 3 (01:28:44):
It also involves touching the private parts of another person's body.
Right yes, it also involves touching the sacred parts of
another person's body.

Speaker 4 (01:28:54):
Right yes.

Speaker 3 (01:28:56):
And this issue about touching can be with is prohibited
with or without clothing, correct yes. And this sexual issue
in the Mormon Church teaches that the parties or the
two people are not to do anything that arouses sexual feelings,

(01:29:20):
right yes, And they are not to arouse the emotions
of your own body.

Speaker 9 (01:29:25):
Right yes.

Speaker 3 (01:29:29):
And other things that are prohibited are things such as
participating in discussions.

Speaker 4 (01:29:34):
Or any media that arouse sexual feelings. Correct yes. Now,
one of the things that you were telling us was that.

Speaker 3 (01:29:45):
There were two trips that were involved with the defendant, you,
your brother and mister Alexander, correct, yes. And the first
one of the trips was the one that was the
have a sup By Foul Falls, right yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:30:03):
And that was in September during your birthday, right yes.

Speaker 3 (01:30:07):
The other trip involved a trip to the Grand Canyon
in Sidonia, right yes. And during that trip, during those
two trips, you said that they got along very very
very well, that's what.

Speaker 2 (01:30:18):
You said, right, yeah, they got on very long.

Speaker 3 (01:30:21):
Right, And according to you, there was no conflict between
the two of them, right.

Speaker 9 (01:30:28):
Aside from the one instance.

Speaker 3 (01:30:30):
Yet, sure, aside from the one that you mentioned where
he was jokingly wouldn't allow her to get in.

Speaker 4 (01:30:34):
The car something like that, right, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:30:37):
Those were That was the only incident that you can remember,
right yes.

Speaker 4 (01:30:41):
Do you remember what happened before they went to on
that have a sup By trip? Do you remember that?

Speaker 5 (01:30:49):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:30:50):
Do you know that during that time there was an issue?
In the first recollection?

Speaker 8 (01:30:57):
All right?

Speaker 3 (01:30:58):
Isn't it true man, that before they went on this
trip there was an issue involving the defendant's backpack? Right?

Speaker 9 (01:31:07):
I don't recall it.

Speaker 2 (01:31:08):
Do you remember that?

Speaker 4 (01:31:09):
For you were in the car, correct, driving up to
have a supine, weren't you?

Speaker 1 (01:31:14):
I was.

Speaker 4 (01:31:15):
Mister Alexander was driving, right, yes, he was.

Speaker 3 (01:31:18):
The defendant was in the passenger seat, right, yes, and
you were in the back with your brother, right yes.
And do you remember that for the first approximately thirty
minutes of that trip there was no talking between mister
Alexander and the defendant.

Speaker 4 (01:31:32):
Do you remember that?

Speaker 5 (01:31:33):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:31:34):
Do you?

Speaker 4 (01:31:35):
You'd think that they were talking all along in the beginning.

Speaker 2 (01:31:39):
Of that trip.

Speaker 11 (01:31:41):
I just don't remember.

Speaker 4 (01:31:42):
It could be you just don't remember, right, Yes, it
could be they were in a fight. You just don't remember.

Speaker 9 (01:31:49):
I just don't recall.

Speaker 4 (01:31:51):
And do you remember that when you went down to
have a sup by the all of you stayed in hammocks, right, yes,
we did.

Speaker 3 (01:31:57):
And when you stayed in these hammocks, defendant stayed in
her hammock, You stayed in your hammock.

Speaker 4 (01:32:02):
Mister Alexander stayed in his hammock, and your brother was
in his hammock, right yes.

Speaker 3 (01:32:07):
And there was a time where getting up in the morning,
there was a time that there was a trap or
a hike that the four of you took right.

Speaker 9 (01:32:15):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (01:32:16):
Isn't it true that you and your brother went ahead.

Speaker 3 (01:32:20):
Of the defendant and mister Alexander because they were arguing
over the defendant.

Speaker 4 (01:32:27):
Being too cleaning with him?

Speaker 3 (01:32:30):
And do not remember you don't remember that they were
You guys took off and they didn't join you for.

Speaker 4 (01:32:35):
About an hour and a half. Do you remember that?

Speaker 2 (01:32:38):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:32:38):
And that when they joined you they were upsetting each other.
You don't remember that.

Speaker 2 (01:32:42):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:32:43):
How about when they went on the trip you said that, well,
the trip to Sadona. Do you remember that you told us, well,
there was this issue involving the taking of photographs.

Speaker 7 (01:32:55):
Right, Well, the defendant wanted said donut Brand Canyon. It
was the same trip, right, so a Grand Canyon trip, yes, right,
same trip.

Speaker 3 (01:33:05):
Right, yes, And the defendant wanted to take some phtographs,
right yes, mister Alexander.

Speaker 4 (01:33:11):
Stopped the car right yes. And actually what happened is that.

Speaker 3 (01:33:17):
The defendant was upset because he got too close to
the edge of the road.

Speaker 4 (01:33:22):
Isn't that what was the problem?

Speaker 9 (01:33:24):
I don't remember.

Speaker 8 (01:33:25):
And isn't it true that he.

Speaker 4 (01:33:28):
Did this, got too close to the edge so that
she could get out and take a better picture.

Speaker 1 (01:33:33):
Do you remember that.

Speaker 4 (01:33:35):
And when she got out.

Speaker 3 (01:33:37):
You do remember though, that she went out and got
out to take pictures, right, yes. And when she went
out to get pictures, she went to get back in
and he kind of sort of took off, right, yes,
And that created a problem, right yes.

Speaker 4 (01:33:50):
And then according to you, when she got in, he
made a remark, right, they both did well. According to you,
he made a remark that shocked you.

Speaker 2 (01:33:58):
Right, it was over the top.

Speaker 8 (01:34:01):
Pardon it was over the top.

Speaker 4 (01:34:03):
It was over the top.

Speaker 3 (01:34:04):
And and and.

Speaker 4 (01:34:07):
Do you even remember the remark today?

Speaker 2 (01:34:09):
No?

Speaker 5 (01:34:09):
I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:34:10):
It was so shocking. You can't remember what the remark.

Speaker 11 (01:34:12):
Was, can you.

Speaker 9 (01:34:15):
It's just been a very long time.

Speaker 3 (01:34:17):
The answer is you can't remember, even though you were
so shocked and over the top, right, Yes, you can't.

Speaker 5 (01:34:23):
I don't have.

Speaker 4 (01:34:23):
Anything else.

Speaker 1 (01:34:25):
Redirect this for you.

Speaker 2 (01:34:31):
When you were just asked questions about the grand opinions
to Donna trip, right, yes, okay, I I think there
might be some confusion. So it was they have a
supy trip, wasn't it? Where you this over the top
shocking comment was made to Jody Jess.

Speaker 1 (01:34:48):
Rephrase it.

Speaker 2 (01:34:50):
When when we discussed on direct when I just was
up here a few minutes ago, and we talked about
the different trips. It was. Was it in have a
Suphine where they arguing occurs about him going forward and
then making a bad comment to miss Arius?

Speaker 9 (01:35:05):
It was to have a super trip?

Speaker 2 (01:35:06):
Okay? So so and what was the comment itself? Was
it how the comment was made that was shocking or
was it the comment itself?

Speaker 9 (01:35:22):
It was how it was made?

Speaker 2 (01:35:23):
And is that why you remember how it was made? Yes?

Speaker 9 (01:35:28):
Overall, yes, that's why I remember it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:37):
And during that half a supply trip before going was
it Travis who wanted to bring Jody? I can ask
did you know? Did you know that Travis wanted to
bring Joey?

Speaker 1 (01:35:50):
Overall? Do me answer yes or no?

Speaker 5 (01:35:54):
As far as I remember, yes, alright, thank you, nothing
but that any questions from the jury for this witness.

Speaker 1 (01:36:00):
Yes, you may step down. The defense may cause next witness.

Speaker 10 (01:36:08):
Thank you here on your defense calls Daniel Freeman, is sure.

Speaker 2 (01:36:23):
Im you do sa almostwear? The testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing about the truth.

Speaker 8 (01:36:28):
I'll help you, Bayle.

Speaker 1 (01:36:30):
Just walk around and have a seat right over here.

Speaker 6 (01:36:37):
Good afternoon, sir. Could you induce yourself to the jury. Please.

Speaker 12 (01:36:43):
My name is Daniel Freeman, and mister Freeman, where do
you live? I'm gonna live here in Gilbert?

Speaker 6 (01:36:49):
Okay? And how old are you?

Speaker 2 (01:36:51):
Sir?

Speaker 8 (01:36:52):
Twenty nine?

Speaker 6 (01:36:52):
Okay? Have you lived in Gilbert all your life?

Speaker 2 (01:36:56):
No?

Speaker 8 (01:36:56):
I haven't lived many many times.

Speaker 6 (01:37:00):
How long have you lived in Gilbert? This this latest? Initially?

Speaker 12 (01:37:04):
Initially I moved here in two thousand and one and
moved back in just this last November to help work
with a friend here.

Speaker 6 (01:37:10):
Okay, So from two you lived here from two thousand
and one till.

Speaker 12 (01:37:14):
When here from two thousand and one to two thousand
and six, and then from two thousand and six to
two thousand.

Speaker 8 (01:37:19):
And eight, I was in Canada for two years.

Speaker 7 (01:37:21):
And what I was?

Speaker 12 (01:37:22):
I was in Canada for two years as a missionary,
and then here again from two thousand and eight until.

Speaker 8 (01:37:30):
I guess the year and three months ago, and then
I went to Colorado.

Speaker 2 (01:37:33):
All right.

Speaker 6 (01:37:35):
You mentioned you were a missionary in Canada, which brings
my next question. Are you a member of the Mormon Church?

Speaker 8 (01:37:43):
Yes, Sam, okay?

Speaker 6 (01:37:44):
And this missionary you served this.

Speaker 5 (01:37:47):
Was what year.

Speaker 8 (01:37:49):
October of six to October November.

Speaker 6 (01:37:52):
Of eight, okay, and have you is that the only
mission you've been on? Okay? And could I get you
to answer yes or no? It's oh yes for the
court report, Thank you sir. Now you mentioned your mission work.
What was there a particular duty or role you had

(01:38:13):
in that.

Speaker 8 (01:38:14):
Work As a missionary.

Speaker 12 (01:38:16):
We did a lot of proselyting and sharing our beliefs
with people, inviting them if they wish to learn more.
I particularly did a lot of work with either less.

Speaker 8 (01:38:24):
Active members or friends of members for the most part.

Speaker 6 (01:38:31):
So describe for us and what you would you would
do when you're speaking to informing people of the church.
Proselytizing is that the word you used? Describe what that meant.

Speaker 12 (01:38:45):
We would, whether it was contacting or friends who were
interested to learn what our beliefs, where we would meet
with them and share our beliefs in our history and
where they came from. And as we shared them, invite
them to learn for themselves, to pray, to kneel down
on their knees and get their own answers spiritually and
mostly was educational, and we would teach people how to

(01:39:08):
connect with their higher power if they wished, and help
them to find what they were looking for and really
just too. For me, being a missionary was all about
encouraging people to live the things they knew to be true,
even if it didn't connect them to our faith in
the end and they became a member of our church.
For me, it was important that they just live what
they knew to be true, and if they found ours

(01:39:28):
to be true, to conform to that.

Speaker 6 (01:39:30):
Okay, And I imagine this isn't something you could broach
in first time you meet someone or in ten minutes.
I imagine it's a process, right, Yes, it's a process.

Speaker 12 (01:39:43):
As a missionary, we broach the topic fairly quickly that
that's what we were there for, because that was our purpose.

Speaker 6 (01:39:48):
Okay, but tell me about the process if you will,
Like I say, you're not going to someone and say
come to our church and baptizing them and get them
back home that afternoon, right, I mean, tell.

Speaker 8 (01:40:04):
Us about that.

Speaker 12 (01:40:05):
Usually there would be a process of events that they
would have gone through before we'd even met them that
has made them, had made them open or interested or
willing to learn or wanting to learn. And in my case,
a lot of times it was members who would bring
their friends to activities that we had and would introduce us,
and we'd talk to them and get to know them,
and in that conversation they said that they would like
to know more about our beliefs, and we'd set up

(01:40:27):
an appointment to go by and discuss with them and
talk with them.

Speaker 8 (01:40:30):
And so initially we'd.

Speaker 12 (01:40:31):
Talk about the Book of Mormon, for which we're also
called Mormons, and we talk about Joseph Smith and the
history of revelation and scripture throughout the world. And then
we would invite them to read some of the Book
of Mormon, and we'd set up a time to come back,
and then we talked to them about the three big
questions kind of in life that everyone has is, you know,

(01:40:52):
who are we, where did we come from, why are
we here, and where are we going? And so we'd
answer those questions with them and invite them again to
read more and to pray. And then we would talk
to them specifically about the church itself and how it
was organized and founded and what I guess, what its
purpose is, and why it was here on the earth,
and we would invite them again to pray.

Speaker 8 (01:41:12):
And to start to come to church.

Speaker 12 (01:41:13):
And as people showed up through willingness and their actions,
that they were willing to progress or willing to learn
more through actions of what they did, we would just
continue to invite them and invite them to pray and
ask them if they had received an answer or spiritual
promptings that they felt, and as they had, we would
continue to invite them more further, ultimately ending in baptism

(01:41:35):
and becoming a member.

Speaker 4 (01:41:36):
Of the church.

Speaker 6 (01:41:37):
So it sounds like it's some time. It takes some time.
There's a lot of visits, there's a lot of I
don't know if I'm using the right word, but there's
a lot of spiritual investment or introspection involved in that.

Speaker 8 (01:41:52):
Right, yes, there is. You've become very good friends with
the people that.

Speaker 6 (01:41:56):
You work with in Seach, Okay. And it's not necessarily
a process, even even for you as a missionary to
just you know, put someone on to get them into
church and baptize them without them reaching that point.

Speaker 12 (01:42:14):
Right, that's not no, No, The goal is not to
bring people into the church so that they disappear or
fall away. It's to help people find within themselves the
desire and the drive if that's.

Speaker 8 (01:42:27):
What they feel that they should do, and to do it.

Speaker 6 (01:42:30):
Okay, So as a missionary. You're not seeking to baptize
someone or seeking to have them baptize until you're satisfied,
if you will, that they put in the effort, they
put in the introspection, they put in the work.

Speaker 12 (01:42:44):
Right, we're seeking to baptize people who want to they
want to be a part of the church and serve
within the community.

Speaker 6 (01:42:56):
Now, sir, did you know a man by the name
of Travis Alexander?

Speaker 5 (01:43:02):
Yes?

Speaker 8 (01:43:02):
I did.

Speaker 6 (01:43:04):
And how did you come to know Travis Alexander.

Speaker 8 (01:43:07):
I came to know Travis through Prepaid Legal.

Speaker 12 (01:43:10):
I started working with Prepaid Legal here with some of
my friends and Danny Jones and Sidence a number of others.
And after we've been working for probably several months I
don't remember, but it was the first big event that
we've gone to that was regional in nature. And at
the regional event I met Travis Alexander, Chris Hughes, and
a number of other of the leaders in Prepaid Legal.

Speaker 6 (01:43:33):
You say leaders. Was he directly connected to you in
terms of the hierarchy or the team's mister Alexander, he.

Speaker 8 (01:43:44):
Was connected to me not.

Speaker 12 (01:43:46):
There was no compensation connecting us at all, No compensation
connecting us, but he was in the Hughes Brothers had
several teams and together they all kind of branched out,
and he was in I believe one of the other
Hughes Brothers teams.

Speaker 6 (01:43:58):
Okay, And you weren't directly underneath him, so to speak.
And do you remember when month or year this meeting
took place with mister Alexander.

Speaker 8 (01:44:14):
And when?

Speaker 12 (01:44:15):
I don't remember the exact date because I don't remember
exactly when I started prepaid legal, Okay, but.

Speaker 8 (01:44:21):
I know I knew him.

Speaker 12 (01:44:22):
I knew him well before I left on my mission
in two thousand and six, So I want to say
it was in two thousand and.

Speaker 8 (01:44:29):
Two thousand and three or two thousand and.

Speaker 12 (01:44:30):
Four, because at the time I was working at an
auto dealership there.

Speaker 2 (01:44:34):
Okay. So he wasn't.

Speaker 6 (01:44:38):
Just to clarify, he wasn't just a business associate of yours, No,
he was a friend.

Speaker 8 (01:44:46):
Initially we met at the.

Speaker 12 (01:44:49):
Business events, and initially him and I probably didn't get
along very well initially, honestly, okay, because at first I
found him kind of cocky, honestly, okay.

Speaker 8 (01:45:01):
But with time, as I came to know him, him
and I came to be very good friends, okay.

Speaker 6 (01:45:06):
And that friendship was at least two years in duration,
based on what you told us, right, two or three years, perhaps.

Speaker 12 (01:45:15):
Two up to two thousand and six, and then after
coming back in two thousand and eight, we were friends again.

Speaker 5 (01:45:19):
Okay.

Speaker 6 (01:45:25):
During your relationship with mister Alexander, did he ever introduce
you to Jody Airis? Yes, he did tell us how
that occurred.

Speaker 8 (01:45:35):
Travis and I. He was going to and I believe
at this time I was roommates with him, but so
we were.

Speaker 12 (01:45:46):
Travis was going to a super Saturday and event that
was going on in California with Chris Hughes, and he
was driving out to that and I didn't have anything
going on that weekend. He asked if I wanted to go,
and so I believe it was Friday night, fairly late.
We started driving over.

Speaker 8 (01:46:03):
I met Jody over there that night, late that evening.

Speaker 12 (01:46:08):
On the way there, he said, Hey, I want to
stop buy and introduce you to somebody who's going to
stop by and say hi on our way to town.

Speaker 6 (01:46:14):
Okay, And you say, do you think it was you
said late in the evening or we talked early morning?
Are we talking late in the evening?

Speaker 8 (01:46:21):
Early morning. It was after midnight when we arrived there.

Speaker 6 (01:46:23):
Okay, do you have any knowledge whether Jody Arius was
expecting your arrival?

Speaker 8 (01:46:29):
I don't think so.

Speaker 6 (01:46:32):
And what you base that on.

Speaker 8 (01:46:35):
The I remember Travis on the way over. Just what
he said was he was going.

Speaker 6 (01:46:42):
Let me ask you this based on your travels with Travis,
two miss areas is home. You didn't get the indication
that she was expecting.

Speaker 8 (01:46:52):
Him or you When she opened the door. She was
quite surprised.

Speaker 6 (01:46:58):
When she opened the door, both you and Travis standing
there or how did that? Yes, yeah, tell us what
happened just once she opened the door.

Speaker 12 (01:47:10):
When she opened the door, she was surprised and came
out and gave Travis a hug.

Speaker 8 (01:47:16):
Travis introduced me. We went inside.

Speaker 12 (01:47:18):
She had been watching the movie The Secret and was
on the TV and they were joking around, and I
think I'd been sleeping in the car before we got there.
I sat down on the couch and they continued to talk,
and I talked a little bit, and then they went
off into the back and were still talking and laughing,
and I watched The Secret for a while, fell asleep watching.

Speaker 7 (01:47:42):
That, and.

Speaker 8 (01:47:44):
When they came back in, I was waking up and
chatted with them on.

Speaker 6 (01:47:49):
So would that be what sounds to me like you
were at the home several hours Mysterious is Home.

Speaker 12 (01:47:59):
I remember the exact but I'd say maybe an hour
because the movie was finishing when.

Speaker 8 (01:48:04):
I woke up.

Speaker 3 (01:48:04):
All right.

Speaker 6 (01:48:09):
After you met Jody? Did you strike up a friendship
with her as well?

Speaker 12 (01:48:17):
Initially we were on friendly terms at the events that
we would go to, whether it was prepaid legal events,
but the only time I would see her was when
I was hanging out with Travis and she was there.
But we became good friends in that regard.

Speaker 6 (01:48:31):
Okay, did you also become good friends with miss Arius
independent of mister Alexander? Did you spend time with her
on your own as well?

Speaker 12 (01:48:44):
The only time that I believe we spent not with
Travis was the times when we were all at events
together and Travis would be doing things with the leadership,
and then Jody and I and others my sister included,
would hang out and do things at the events since
some time together, but I don't remember specifically being alone
just the two of.

Speaker 8 (01:49:02):
Us during that time.

Speaker 6 (01:49:04):
Let me, I want to clarify something you brought up something.
How long were you Travis's.

Speaker 8 (01:49:10):
Room three or four months, okay, and.

Speaker 6 (01:49:16):
That was you were a roommate at the period of
time when mister Alexander introduce you to Miss Arius, Right,
I believe so. And you were a member of Prepaid
Legal at the time of this meeting as well, right, Yes, okay.
Are you still involved in pre Paid Legal?

Speaker 8 (01:49:38):
No, I have an active membership, but I am not
actively involved.

Speaker 5 (01:49:41):
Okay.

Speaker 6 (01:49:42):
And actively involved I take it by that you mean
you know, going to meetings that sort of thing selling
the product, right, Yes, No, I hope. And when did
that venture cease for you?

Speaker 12 (01:49:56):
When I went on my mission in two thousand and six,
it was put on pause for two years, so I
came back and from two thousand and eight.

Speaker 8 (01:50:07):
Until two thousand.

Speaker 12 (01:50:08):
And nine, losing in two thousand and nine that I
ceased that adventure January, I believe.

Speaker 6 (01:50:19):
Okay. Did you ever have the occasion to travel with
Jody and Travis?

Speaker 1 (01:50:29):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:50:29):
I did.

Speaker 6 (01:50:30):
Do you recall how many trips you took with them?

Speaker 12 (01:50:35):
The trips I can specifically think of with just the
two of them that weren't Prepaid Legal were when we
went to have a sup eye and we went to
Sedona and the Grand Canyon.

Speaker 6 (01:50:46):
Okay, as it relates. Let me just first of all,
focus our questioning on the have a super By trip? Okay,
is that a yes?

Speaker 5 (01:50:59):
We can?

Speaker 6 (01:50:59):
We I saw you not, So do you recall when
that trip took place?

Speaker 12 (01:51:09):
Forgive me, I'm trying to think of timeline. I've moved
close to fifty times now, so I.

Speaker 2 (01:51:13):
Have to.

Speaker 6 (01:51:15):
Fair enough to take your time, and I'm not asking
for an exact date. Maybe if you could give us
a month and year.

Speaker 8 (01:51:20):
It was towards the end of a summer, and I
believe it.

Speaker 6 (01:51:23):
Was two thousand and seven, the end of summer two
thousand and seven, and this trip to have a soup.
We mentioned Jody and Travis going on this trip with you?

Speaker 11 (01:51:35):
Right? Is that yes?

Speaker 8 (01:51:37):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:51:38):
And was anyone else on that trip?

Speaker 8 (01:51:40):
And my sister does it right as well.

Speaker 6 (01:51:43):
Was it your impression that Jody and Travis were together
as a couple during that trip?

Speaker 5 (01:51:53):
Yes? It was?

Speaker 6 (01:51:54):
And on what do you base that impression?

Speaker 12 (01:51:58):
How they interacted to other? My impression, I would say,
is that they were two. To everyone else, it seemed
like they were together and yet not together. And to
me when I was around them, with just the two
of them. They were fairly comfortable together and acted more
like a couple. I know with Travis around others, he
didn't know. He was still figuring out I guess where

(01:52:21):
he was, and so around others when Jody wasn't there.
When I was there, he was different in his demeanor.
He didn't mention Jody, but when they were together, to me,
they were dating, but there were some issues that they
were still.

Speaker 8 (01:52:35):
Working out, and so I didn't ask a lot of
questions about it.

Speaker 6 (01:52:38):
Okay, you said a lot there. Are you telling us
that he acted differently privately with Jody than he did
shall we say publicly with Jody?

Speaker 11 (01:52:53):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:52:54):
Okay, And could you really kind of just describe for
us what you mean by.

Speaker 8 (01:52:59):
That At that time, at least when we were going
on the trip.

Speaker 12 (01:53:07):
Throughout the week and hanging out with different groups of
friends that Travis had who would come over. Oftentimes Jody
would not come to those events, but then they would
hang out later on in the week, and so there
were different groups of friends that would hang out and
kind of exclusive of one another.

Speaker 6 (01:53:22):
So your impression was he kept Jody into a different compartment.

Speaker 4 (01:53:26):
Is that right? Yeah?

Speaker 8 (01:53:28):
Yes, I guess you could say that.

Speaker 6 (01:53:29):
A different peer group. Yes, that'd be a better word.

Speaker 3 (01:53:33):
Now.

Speaker 4 (01:53:33):
You said, in.

Speaker 6 (01:53:35):
This late summer of two thousand and seven, when you
went to have a suppo, your impression was that they
were a couple. They were acting like a couple.

Speaker 12 (01:53:44):
Right, Yes, they were acting like a couple, but there
were definitely some undercurrents there between them.

Speaker 8 (01:53:50):
But they were acting like a couple.

Speaker 6 (01:53:52):
Okay, well, let's break that down a bit. What do
you mean by what makes you say they were definitely
acting like a couple.

Speaker 12 (01:54:01):
They would flirt and tease and hold hands and the
you know, little touches as they talked and things like that.

Speaker 8 (01:54:07):
They would They were just very intimate in the way
they conversed with each other.

Speaker 12 (01:54:11):
They knew each other very well and were obviously comfortable
and friendly in one another's company.

Speaker 6 (01:54:17):
Do you wear that physically.

Speaker 12 (01:54:23):
They were comfortable, but not overly expressive, as in touching
and kissing things like that in public in front of
other people.

Speaker 6 (01:54:30):
And you said in public in front of the people.
But when you were on this trip, when it was
just the four of you, were they physically expressive.

Speaker 12 (01:54:43):
Yes, they would hold hands in touch and in the
waterfalls and things, and we would swim they were in
some of the pools where we would sit, so w'd
sit on Travis's lap, or they have their arms around

(01:55:05):
each other for a photo, for a shot, things like that, okay.

Speaker 6 (01:55:09):
And that was different than the way they acted in public.

Speaker 12 (01:55:12):
If they were at an event for the most part,
are at a friends gathering, they weren't as they were friends.

Speaker 8 (01:55:20):
It looked like more to me.

Speaker 6 (01:55:22):
Okay. You also mentioned there were some undercurrents going on
during this trip, and what do you mean by that?

Speaker 12 (01:55:33):
When we started the trip, I think of the well, okay,
two things all back up. First, one is in conversations
that I had had with Travis, what he had said
was that he while he loved Jody, he didn't know
if he wanted to marry her, and so as far
as dating, he said he wanted to date other people.

Speaker 8 (01:55:55):
And yet every time they hung out, he said.

Speaker 12 (01:55:57):
That they would continue to hang out and continued to
fall back into dating again. And so I knew that
that was in Travis's mind. And then as we get
ready to go on the trip, we had packed backpacks
and everybody's bags, and Jody had brought hers downstairs and
set it on the table and then had gone back
up to finish getting ready, and I was just picking

(01:56:19):
it up to move it off the table, and there
it was quite heavy, and with the hike in being long,
I didn't know if she would survive that hike with
that pack. So I opened it up to see what
was in there and found, you know, things girls fake
with them, emotions, bills or lotions, make up things of
that nature. So I proceeded as I usually do for hiking.
I helped to lighten her pack. And then she came

(01:56:41):
down and saw what we had taken out, or what
I had taken out in particular, and had made a
comment about it, and she was not happy with it
and had expressed her concern that those things were no
longer in her pack.

Speaker 8 (01:56:54):
And I don't remember what Travis said, but he made
a comment.

Speaker 2 (01:56:56):
Back and that.

Speaker 6 (01:57:00):
Let me ask you this, based on your assessment of
mister Alexander's demeanor. Was he upset with miss Arias over
this backpack without telling me anything he said? Was he angry?
Was he talking loud?

Speaker 12 (01:57:17):
He did start to talk loud. It wasn't about the backpack, though,
It was about the exchange between them that went on.
And then she went upstairs and had started crying, and
he had started raising his voice and yelling a little bit,
and so they were arguing back and forth upstairs. My
sister and I sat downstairs on the couch for a while,

(01:57:38):
looking at each other, and I was wondering what did
I do? And after three, four or five minutes I
went upstairs and started to talk with them and say, hey,
you know, let's calm down and de escalate the argument. Okay.

Speaker 6 (01:57:54):
And based on the fact that you made it there,
I'm guessing eventually you got in the car arm began
to drive up there.

Speaker 12 (01:58:01):
We got in the car and Travis and Jodi Is
still weren't talking to each other, okay, and we I suggested, well.

Speaker 8 (01:58:10):
Everybody's a little tense.

Speaker 12 (01:58:11):
Let's get in the car and start to drive, and
everyone will call him down as we go, And within
half an hour everyone was happy and joking.

Speaker 3 (01:58:19):
Him talking.

Speaker 6 (01:58:21):
Before we move on to the Sedona trip, I want
to ask you, at this time period, this late summer
two thousand and seven, were you under the impression that
Travis was dating someone else, not Joe.

Speaker 12 (01:58:43):
I do not recall at the time of those trips
if he was actively dating anyone else, or if he
was just hanging out with groups of friends.

Speaker 8 (01:58:51):
At the house.

Speaker 6 (01:58:52):
Okay. Do you remember him having a relationship with a
young lady named at that time Lisa Andrews.

Speaker 12 (01:59:00):
Remember Lisa and her as well as an entourage of
many of her friends were over there. Although I do
remember we went out to eat dinner, Travis and I
and Lisa and another one of her friends. We went
out to eat, and I believe that was before we
went on the.

Speaker 6 (01:59:17):
Trip, okay, And was that sort of a double date?

Speaker 12 (01:59:22):
It was kind of a spontaneous occurrence that happened, and
while there, it wasn't official, But so while there, I
that was my impression was we ended up on a
double date basically.

Speaker 6 (01:59:33):
Okay. And while on this double date with Lisa, Lisa
Andrews and this you yourself and this other young lady,
was just at a restaurant, this public.

Speaker 8 (01:59:46):
Place, I believe we were at Dennie's Okay.

Speaker 6 (01:59:50):
And you mentioned that you kind of got the impression
that Travis was on it or you were on a
double date. Was Travis acting as if he was or
were he and Lisa acting as if they were a couple.

Speaker 12 (02:00:07):
Not as a couple, but they were flirting and talking,
and Travis was making jokes, and.

Speaker 8 (02:00:15):
He was making jokes and being who he was usually
around women, that he was interested in it.

Speaker 6 (02:00:20):
Okay, See, based on his behavior, you got the impression
that he was interested in, at the very least interested
in Lisa Andrews at that point in time.

Speaker 12 (02:00:29):
Right, Yes, he he that he enjoyed hanging out with
her and spending time with her. I can't say that
anything he did was specifically expressed to me that he
clearly and you know that he was clearly saying it.
But to me, there was present there in the backroom.

Speaker 1 (02:00:46):
Okay, recess at this time. However, before we adjourn, there
are two matters I would like to discuss with you.
The first matter is that some of the evidence in
this matter may elicit emotional responses from witnesses and from

(02:01:07):
those seated in the gallery. At the end of the trial,
I will give you final instructions. You will also see
something of this nature in your preliminary instructions. But I
want to emphasize to you at this point that in
evaluating the evidence, you should not be influenced by sympathy

(02:01:30):
or prejudice. Now, in response to the incident that occurred,
yesterday during the noon hour involving the one juror. The
court has arranged to have an escort for all jurors
downstairs each day at the noon hour and after court.

(02:01:52):
So there will be someone here from court security to
take all of you downstairs at lunch and you will
They will also take you downstairs to the bus at
the end of the court day. I am going to
suggest that if any of you have concerns about being approached,

(02:02:13):
that you remove your juror badge when you're coming into
the court court building. Put it on as soon as
you get inside the court building. The media has been
they have been approached, and they are aware that they
should not be trying to contact any yours. All right,

(02:02:34):
are there any questions? Please remember the admonition, have a
nice evening. We will see you tomorrow at ten thirty.

(02:02:56):
You can step down, sir. Thank you will see you
tomorrow at ten thirty. Please be seated. Counsels or anything
else we need to address.

Speaker 5 (02:03:05):
Stright.

Speaker 8 (02:03:05):
We rejourned