Day 12

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, mister Freeman, please have a seat, Please be seated.

(00:23):
The record will show the presence of the jury, the defendant,
and all council ladies and gentlemen. I apologize for the
delay in starting today. Mister Freeman. You are still under oath,
do you understand? Yes, mister Neerman, you may continue.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Thank you, honor mister Freeman. Good morning again. Yesterday when
we ended our discussion, we were about ready to talk
about the trip you made to Sedona in the Grand
Canyon with Jody and Travis. But before we do that,

(00:56):
it's my understanding that you felt yesterday that you you
had given some dates that weren't quite accurate. Is that correct?

Speaker 3 (01:03):
That is correct?

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Okay, let me go back through some of these timeframes
with you. So now that you've thought about it a
little bit, when do you recall meeting Travis.

Speaker 4 (01:15):
I met Travis two years prior to my mission, which
was my mission was.

Speaker 3 (01:19):
Oh Fooridaho six.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
Okay, So the mission we talked about you going to
Canada proselytizing that sort of thing that happened, what years.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
Two thousand and four to two thousand and six.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
Okay, and then so prior to you had known Travis
for before the mission. I think yesterday you might have
told us after, but that was before your mission, a
couple of years before.

Speaker 4 (01:43):
Right, Yeah, I sent to him both before and after.
I met him through Prepaid Legal initially and then once
he moved to Arizona. We became better friends because all
of my friends within Prepaid Legal lived.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
With him, and we started to hang out more.

Speaker 4 (01:57):
So by the time I left, he came to my
f well and hang out with me the week, quite
a bit of it before I left.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
And you say, left for your mission, for my mission,
and then we spoke a little bit yesterday about when
you came back from your mission. Did you live with him,
just to clarify before you left in your mission or
when you returned.

Speaker 4 (02:17):
I lived with him when I returned the early part
of two thousand and seven, Okay, I do believe I
was there three to four months before moving back home. Okay.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Now, as it relates to your mission work, we spoke
about the proselytizing and the process someone goes through, and
I neglected to ask in that regard if you have
been either as a missionary or you're a lifelong member

(02:51):
of the Mormon Church, that's correct.

Speaker 5 (02:52):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
Have you been involved in baptism at that church, Yes,
I have, okay. And this baptism, from what you told
us yesterday, it's my understanding that occurs if someone is
a new member.

Speaker 5 (03:12):
Of the church, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
That happens after the long process that you spoke about yesterday.
Baptisms the final step in that, right.

Speaker 4 (03:20):
Yeah. So at the end of they give up a
lot of times, they give up many habits, whether it's
drinking or smoking, or there's changes that have gone into
their life, and they've shown those changes by how they've
chosen to live their life up to that point. And
they have an interview with either remember the bishopric, or
someone in the mission who says that they're worthy to
be baptized, and then they're taken in and baptized.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Okay. So it's a matter of, like you said, giving
up things. They have to prove, and someone's prove it
to the church that you're worthy.

Speaker 4 (03:53):
Is that fair to say, Yes, you must justify by
the way you walk and act in the world that
you have changed, Okay.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
And that's for anyone who's baptized. Anyone is baptized, and
the ceremony itself that you describe that.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
For us, Yes, the.

Speaker 4 (04:12):
Usually they'll have a ceremony that goes with it, and
there will be some talks and either the missionaries or
friends who have become friends and with the person who
will be baptized. They will usually have a short speech
about baptism and what it symbolizes, what it means, and
then they will have the actual ceremony, and then they
will have another speech afterwards to talk about receiving the

(04:33):
Holy Ghost and what it means to receive the Holy
Ghost that they will receive the following Sunday. But the
actual ceremony itself, they walk down into the water and
the person being baptized takes that person by their.

Speaker 3 (04:45):
Arm and they hold them in the.

Speaker 4 (04:46):
Water, and it's above the waist usually you know, mid
stomach depth. The person baptizing them raises the right under
the square, pronounces a prayer, and immerses.

Speaker 3 (04:58):
Them in the water, them up again, symbolic of.

Speaker 4 (05:01):
Being buried in death and reason again with Christ and birth.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
Okay, in terms of and I don't know if I'm
using the right verbiage here, but how would one be
deemed qualified to baptize a person?

Speaker 4 (05:21):
To be qualified to baptize a person, or to be
able to baptize a person, First you have to be
a member of the priesthood and hold the proper priesthood.
To be an elder in the church all too well,
you have to hold the proper priesthood to be able
to baptize. And once you hold the proper priesthoge, if
you are a worthy holder, judged by the way that
you live your life, then you are able to baptize.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Okay, back up a little bit, then, what is a
You mentioned a couple of terms, priesthood holder and elder.
Are they the same thing or could you kind of
maybe define both terms for us.

Speaker 4 (05:55):
Within the church, there's two priesthods, the lesser called the
Ironic priesthood and the greater the Presidic Priesthood. And within
the lesser there are deacons, teachers, and priests, and then
within the greater priesthood there are elders and high priests, and.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
So most.

Speaker 4 (06:14):
They're usually the Ironic priesthood unless you join the church
later in life. Is a youth priesthood from twelve to eighteen,
and upon turning eighteen, if you're worthy, you're ordained an
elder and as an elder, you have the ability to
baptize and to give the Holy Ghost as well.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Okay, Okay, to your knowledge of what position, if any,
or label status, whatever word you want to put on it,
what position would be attributed to mister.

Speaker 3 (06:48):
Alexander, Travis was an elder.

Speaker 2 (06:50):
In the church, and being an elder in the church,
would somebody would have to come with the idea that
they were living in accordance with Mormon principles. Correct, Yes,
and including the bow chasity.

Speaker 5 (07:06):
Correct?

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Is that a yes?

Speaker 5 (07:07):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Were you present when miss Arius was baptized?

Speaker 6 (07:16):
I was not.

Speaker 4 (07:16):
She was baptized before I met her. Travis talked about
it when we went over to when we went over
to visit her the first time I met her, he'd
mentioned that he'd given her Book of Mormon and introduced
her to the church.

Speaker 2 (07:28):
Okay, at that point in time, do you did you
have any reasona believe mister Alexander was not living up
to the principles of your church in terms of before
we go into the trip again, as much as you
can speak to your knowledge, was mister Alexander's peer group

(07:52):
largely made up of members of your church?

Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yes, it was.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
As it relates to this trip to the Grand Canyon Sedona.
There was a trip one trip to both destinations. Is
that correct? We heard yesterday about during the Have a
Supi trip, which was the same summer. Correct, that they

(08:19):
were acting as a couple and there was also an
undercurrent of couplehood, but a little tension I think is
what you described for us yesterday. Correct. Yes, as it
relates to their acting, Mister Alexander and miss Arius acting
as a couple. Was that going on during the Grand

(08:41):
Canyon Sedona trip?

Speaker 4 (08:45):
During the Grand Canyon Sidona trip there, I don't remember
any tensions between them.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
That I can recall.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
I'm sorry it was I.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
Don't remember any tensions between them that I recall.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Do you recall behavior consistent with him being a couple.

Speaker 4 (09:04):
The for the most part, yes. The only thing I
do recall was when we were in up to the
to the contrary was when we were at when we
stopped in Sedona to eat that evening or our way
back to Phoenix. We went to a small restaurant there
that Trauvis had heard about that was good, and while

(09:25):
there he made a joking comment.

Speaker 3 (09:27):
To the waitress about him and Jody not dating and in.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
Kind of a flirtatious manner, okay, And I didn't know
how to take it.

Speaker 3 (09:37):
I just smiled and moved on. Wasn't any of my business, but.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
In a flirtatious manner towards the waitress, right, yes, okay?

Speaker 7 (09:46):
And do you.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
Was Jody sitting at the table at the time, yes, okay.
What do you recall of her reaction? Not anything she said,
but it was she upset in.

Speaker 4 (09:59):
Any way that you could have I couldn't tell that
she was upset, but she seemed to feel uncomfortable or
unsure how to take the comment.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
Okay, Now this.

Speaker 8 (10:11):
I know.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
They both occurred in the in the summer of two
thousand and seven. This trip to the Grand Canyon. Was
it weeks later? Was it months later than the trip
to have a Suphie.

Speaker 4 (10:24):
I don't recall exactly the difference. I know that it
was still cool outside when we went to the Grand
Canyon in Sedona, because we were in Jackets and Sedona.
We went and saw. I did a Buddhas shrine there
that we went and saw, and we were all bundled
up because it was cold. Okay, And I know that
we went to have a Supery of Lead in September.

Speaker 2 (10:41):
So, okay, do you remember the sleeping arrangements during this
trip to the Grand Canyon.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
From that trip?

Speaker 4 (10:54):
From what I recall, and I was trying to think
about this actually last night as well as I was.

Speaker 3 (10:59):
Home running through things.

Speaker 8 (11:00):
But the.

Speaker 4 (11:03):
I believe that that trip we just did a day trip,
because I don't remember. I think we drove up really
early to the Green Canyon, hiked around, and then stopped
in Sedona on our way back down. Okay, that's that's
my reflection of that.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
So I guess there would have been.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
No need for There was no need for.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
As it relates to this particular trip. Were you of
the understanding that Travis was also dating Lisa Lisa Andrews,
and on this trip you say you noticed no tension
between the two of.

Speaker 3 (11:42):
Them, aside from the comment at dinner.

Speaker 4 (11:44):
No, okay.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
Was there a point in time where you became aware
of Travis and Jody no longer dating?

Speaker 4 (12:00):
Yes, the once we had, and this was after I'd
moved back out and Travis had started to he'd made
a lot more friends in the war that was there,
and he'd started to have UFC fight nights at his
house and everyone would come over and watch the fights.

(12:20):
And I recall maybe several times, many times that I
would go over to the fights and Jody.

Speaker 3 (12:26):
Was still in town, still live in Arizona, but.

Speaker 4 (12:28):
She wasn't there because in that group of friends, them
and Jody, that was kind of the two different groups
of friends was Lisa and.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
The group from the church that was there, okay.

Speaker 4 (12:39):
And so I remember fight nights that I would go to,
but Jody wouldn't be there, and that was in partant
because those two groups didn't.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
Mix to your knowledge. Then at the same time he
talked about those two groups not mixing, were you aware
of mister Alexander still spending time with Jody away from
that group.

Speaker 3 (13:00):
Yes, I was at that time.

Speaker 4 (13:03):
It was during that time, and I was after both
of those trips, so it was later.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
In that fall.

Speaker 4 (13:09):
In that winter, I hung out and spent time with
Travis and with Jody separately. For the most part, I
had heard about them spending time together, but usually there
was no one else at least I wasn't there when
they spent time together, and I would hang out with
them separately, and so I knew that there was tension there.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
Because they would both talk to me about.

Speaker 4 (13:29):
One another and what was going on to some extent,
But they were I hang out with them separate, but
they weren't officially split up when they officially split up,
And I don't know how that conversation went. I just
know that in talking to Travis, he had said that
he was going to talk to Jody or they were
going to have an official conversation.

Speaker 3 (13:49):
And then.

Speaker 4 (13:52):
Sometime after that, Jody had moved back to California.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
Okay, these these times when Jody and mister Alexander were
spending time together, it sounds to me like from what
you described, that was maybe just the two of them
as opposed to in public settings. Is that accurate impression? Okay?

(14:16):
And that was probably to your impression anyway. Was that
something that a lot of people knew about or just
perhaps you in a select field.

Speaker 4 (14:24):
I don't think a lot of people knew. I think
there was more of a select few others may have known,
but I know that Travis didn't talk about it a lot.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
Okay, did you know of Jody and Travis traveling together
taking other trips together?

Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yes, they went. There's two trips.

Speaker 4 (14:51):
I'm trying to think one I know they went on Hey, well,
that one I think was a day trip.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
They went down to the balloon Festival.

Speaker 4 (14:57):
They had a lot of pictures that they took at
that and looked they quite an joined it. And then
they had they went on a and I think it
was around the convention that we went to.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
But they did a church history tour.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (15:08):
It took three or four or five days.

Speaker 4 (15:09):
And when it saw church history sites that I recalled
them talking about.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
Okay, so a church history site tour, so to speak.

Speaker 4 (15:19):
It was a road trip around the US to the
convention or to whatever it was at the end of it.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
And then, since you brought up the church history trip,
and we've talked a little bit about baptism and your
work as as a missionary. In your interaction with Jody,
did you ever have any concerns that her conversion to
the Mormon faith was disingenuous or motivated solely by Travis

(15:51):
approach back up the step and ask you this. You
talked about how at a certain point in time that
you began to hang out with miss Arias without Travis. Yes,
and I believe, if I follow the timeline correctly, this

(16:15):
was at a point in time when you were living
back at home.

Speaker 8 (16:20):
Yes, and.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Was that in Gilbert then, based on what you were
telling us yesterday, yes it was. And who lived back
at home with you at that point in.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
Time, my parents, my brother, and one of my sisters
was there.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Did Jody have also have a relationship with those other
members of your family?

Speaker 3 (16:43):
Yes, she did.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
Close relationship.

Speaker 4 (16:49):
Yes, she came by for once she had moved to Arizona.
She came by several times for dinner, for different things
with the family, and she would help We had my
my foster sister arrived there in the meantime while Jody
was there. We adopted foster sister who was close to eighteen,
and she had a photography class and Jody would help

(17:10):
her with her photography homework. And when my sister, Desiree
and I would hang out and do other things, Jody
would come and a lot of times it would just
either three of us or work on vision boards or
do many different things that we would do.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Okay, during we heard your sister your sister's also a
member of the Mormon church crept Yes, she's are your
parents also, so in quins there were there in the
times of these interactions or even the interactions you had

(17:41):
with yourself. Did you discuss the Mormon faith or church
or spiritual issues with Jody? Yes, okay, several of those discussions.

Speaker 4 (17:56):
A lot of the things we talked about had to
do with spirituality or things that we were learning in general,
the church specifically. I can think of several instances that
we addressed her conversion, or we talked about how she
joined the church, or things that were going on in
her singles word where she was at. But it wasn't

(18:16):
a daily topic of discussion, but we did discuss.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
But you did talk to her about her conversion, her spirituality,
how that worked for her. I guess based on those conversations.
Do you have any reason and your experience, do you
have any reason to believe that her conversion was less
than genuine.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
Overall? Do you mean answer? No, I do not have
any reason to believe it was disingenuous.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
It sounds like in this point in time between breaking
up with Travis and her moving back to California, that
you and Jody became closer. Is that correct?

Speaker 4 (19:03):
Yes, between when they were separated, but unsure of what
they were doing when Travis would hang out with kind
of the other group of friends who I got along with.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
More or less.

Speaker 4 (19:15):
We would invite Desire and I would invite Jody over
and hang out. And so we had a number of
things that we did.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
We became closer with and she was close to your
whole family. Yes, I have to ask in case the
issue was raised, did you ever have a romantic interest
in this areas?

Speaker 6 (19:35):
No?

Speaker 1 (19:35):
I did not.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
How do you view her?

Speaker 4 (19:39):
I she became a sister our family.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
After Jody moved to California, did you remain in contact
with her?

Speaker 4 (19:55):
We would talk on occasion if she came into town,
and sometimes I find out she was in town after
she arrived in town, but she would call him, we
would meet up or say hi, or she she'd just
swing by the house and see the family for the
most part, and then sometimes go hang out with Travis
or stop buying and see him.

Speaker 3 (20:13):
But she'd just come by the house and hang out.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Did you make contact with her after you found out
that mister Alexander had passed?

Speaker 3 (20:30):
Yes? I did.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Do you remember when that contact occurred?

Speaker 3 (20:36):
Brent Hyatt a friend.

Speaker 4 (20:37):
He was at Travis's house and he had gone over
there and he had called me to tell me that
they'd found Travis and that somebody should probably call him
tell Jody. And since I knew her probably the best
out of that group of friends from prepaid, he thought
I should be the one to call him tell her.

Speaker 2 (20:54):
Okay, and did you do that?

Speaker 5 (20:56):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (20:56):
They did, And I understand it was over the phone,
but can you give us an assessment of her demeanor
that you could discern over the phone when you advised
her this information.

Speaker 3 (21:13):
When I called, I was I didn't know what to say.

Speaker 4 (21:16):
I guess you would say I had no words relating
and took a minute and I told her that Travis
had been found. That the other end was silent for
a moment, and I didn't know what to take of that,
and just waited. And she became after a moment, became
emotional and started to cry on the phone, and I
talked to her for a minute, but there wasn't anything

(21:39):
I could think of to do to comfort someone over
the phone.

Speaker 3 (21:41):
So you know, after probably two minutes, I let her
go so she could to be with herself.

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Thank you, mister Freeman.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Cross examination sort of.

Speaker 7 (21:57):
Regarded this issue of spirituality and version the baptistm and
you were asked questions about that, right. Yes, you weren't
present at the time that she was baptized, right, No,
I was not on So you don't know her motivations
at the time that she was baptized, do you?

Speaker 3 (22:12):
No, I do not.

Speaker 9 (22:13):
And one of the things that you indicated to.

Speaker 7 (22:16):
Us was that when a person goes through this process, they.

Speaker 3 (22:20):
Give up certain things, right many times?

Speaker 7 (22:23):
Yes, well, one of the things they give up is sex,
primarial sex, right, yes. So did you know that the
defendant was having oral sex with mister Alexander at the time.

Speaker 9 (22:33):
That of her baptism?

Speaker 3 (22:35):
I did not know that.

Speaker 7 (22:36):
So if somebody was having oral sex at the time
of their baptism, you would agree that wouldn't be a
sincere if you will baptism under your definition, right, I
would agree that they would not be ready to be baptized.
And also you said that you called her when mister
Alexander was found right, Yes, and.

Speaker 9 (22:58):
That occurred on the night that he was out right. Yes,
you were called by this individual by the name.

Speaker 7 (23:03):
Of Hyatt, Right, yes, I was, And you ended up
calling the defendant about eleven o'clock at night, didn't you?

Speaker 3 (23:09):
That sounds from correct?

Speaker 7 (23:11):
And when you called her at eleven o'clock at night.
It was by a telephone, right yes. And when you
called her on the telephone, you told her that Travis
was gone her words.

Speaker 3 (23:22):
To that effect, right yes.

Speaker 7 (23:24):
And you said there was a moment of silence, right yes,
and then that she began to cry too.

Speaker 4 (23:34):
I don't know if you would call it babble, but
to mumble, oh my goodness, and yes, to cry her.

Speaker 6 (23:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (23:41):
And if you guys were pretty close though right back then?

Speaker 3 (23:46):
Yes, she sounded disbelieving.

Speaker 4 (23:49):
Right, but you were close at my point, right, we
were friendly used and she would confide any things back then, right,
many things, yes, some things now, well, she would confide
a least.

Speaker 9 (23:59):
Something to you, right yes. And did she confide to
you at that time that she killed Travis? No, So
if she didn't tell you that she killed him, that's
a lie, isn't it. Did she tell you that she
killed Travis?

Speaker 3 (24:12):
No, she did not.

Speaker 9 (24:13):
Did you cut her.

Speaker 7 (24:14):
Off at any time during that conversation such that she
you didn't let her tell you that?

Speaker 9 (24:21):
How You weren't rude in any way, were you?

Speaker 2 (24:24):
No?

Speaker 7 (24:24):
You don't speak very much at all. You gave her
that opportunity, right yes. You also talked to a defense
counsel about a situation involving mister Alexander and.

Speaker 9 (24:35):
His relationship with the defendant. Do you remember that.

Speaker 7 (24:39):
Specifically about mister Alexander having the talk with her, right yes?

Speaker 9 (24:44):
And you told us that it was mister.

Speaker 7 (24:45):
Alexander who told you that he was going to have
to talk with her about breaking up, right yes, overworld.

Speaker 4 (24:56):
You told us that, right yes, I had a conversation
with Travis and which she said he need to have.
He was going to have a conversation with Jody and
he was going to break up with her, right that
he was going to officially separate because they were more
or less broken up, and that they weren't dating, but
they were still would still.

Speaker 3 (25:12):
Hang out on the weekend or whenever one.

Speaker 7 (25:14):
Of them was in town or the other, and he
was going to end even that part of the relationship,
right yes. And it was after he told you that
that then she moved to California, right yes. The trip
to have a SOUPI It didn't start very well, did it.

Speaker 3 (25:31):
No?

Speaker 9 (25:31):
And in fact, you went over to Travis's house, right yes.
And when you went over, you.

Speaker 7 (25:36):
Looked at a backpack that belonged to the defendant, right,
The backpack belonged to me, but it was full for things,
and it was there were some things in it, right yes,
And you picked up that backpack, right yes.

Speaker 9 (25:50):
And when you picked up.

Speaker 7 (25:51):
That backpack, you realize it was way too heavy, right yes,
And so you went through that pack and started taking
things out, right.

Speaker 3 (25:59):
Yes.

Speaker 9 (25:59):
It wasn't Alexander that didn't know.

Speaker 7 (26:02):
And mister Alexander was standing there though, right yes, And so.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
Was your sister, right I think so.

Speaker 7 (26:09):
And as you're going through this, the purpose of taking
all this stuff was that you were going to hike
thirteen miles.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
Right, Yes. It was to lighten the load, right, And
if you're going.

Speaker 7 (26:19):
To hike thirteen miles, you really don't want to take
a lot of weight, do you.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
No.

Speaker 7 (26:24):
And it wasn't that you were being mean or anything
like that, right No, It wasn't that you weren't doing
it other than for a good reason, right yes.

Speaker 9 (26:32):
And the reason was so that everybody, or least the person.

Speaker 7 (26:35):
Who had to carry that backpack would have a better time,
right yes.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
And so Travis and I didn't have to split it
up and carry it later too.

Speaker 7 (26:41):
Right But yes, And so when you took that stuff off.
At some point the defendant came down from upstairs, right, yes,
and she saw that all of those items were out there, right, Yes,
they were sitting on the table.

Speaker 9 (26:55):
She became upset, didn't she. Yes, she got upset at you, didn't.

Speaker 4 (26:58):
She She was upset in general and frustrated. You didn't
seem that she was upset at any one of us
in particular.

Speaker 9 (27:06):
But she wasn't upset at you. She wasn't upset at Travis.

Speaker 7 (27:09):
She was just upset, Yes, And she was upset because
the stuff had been taken out right sustained. Did you
know of any reason other than the backpack as you
sit here, why the defendant would be upset, as you characterize.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
It over world the answer yes or no?

Speaker 3 (27:31):
Do I know that any know?

Speaker 7 (27:33):
And the items that you took out they were makeup
sort of items, weren't they?

Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yes?

Speaker 9 (27:38):
What else did you take out?

Speaker 3 (27:41):
Makeup?

Speaker 4 (27:41):
Lotion, hand sanitizer, tear things, things of that nature. They're
probably ten to fifteen pounds worth of different things.

Speaker 7 (27:53):
And as she was standing there upset generally, what happened
after that?

Speaker 9 (27:59):
It escalated to the point where.

Speaker 4 (28:01):
She went upstairs right Yes, I don't remember what Travis said,
but he made a comment partially sounded it was a
sarcastic comment that he made. And after he made that comment,
she said something back, and then she became emotional and
went upstairs, and Travis went up after her.

Speaker 9 (28:20):
But she did say something back, didn't she?

Speaker 4 (28:22):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (28:22):
And they went back and forth for a minute to
demonstrate that she was upset, Right yes, So it wasn't
she just sat there and took it, She responded back,
didn't you, yes, And then she went upstairs, right yes,
And then he went after her to try to take
care of whatever was going on, didn't.

Speaker 9 (28:38):
He sustained, he went after her, Right.

Speaker 7 (28:43):
He did go upstairs after her, and they were up
there for some time, right, It was probably twenty minutes
before I went up and I could hear them talking,
but not what they were saying. So they were up
there for some time, right yes. And then you went
up there, right yes. And when you were up there,
neither of them was happy, right no. And this all

(29:04):
started because you had gone into that backpack, right yes.
Travis hadn't gone into that backpack.

Speaker 5 (29:09):
Right no.

Speaker 7 (29:11):
Came back down personally to whatever it was that you said,
right yes, and then into the car. You went off
to have a super ly right, yes, And Travis was
driving right, Yes, the defendant was sitting right next to him.

Speaker 9 (29:25):
Right, Yes, she was. And they were pretty quiet, weren't they.

Speaker 3 (29:28):
Yes, they were silent.

Speaker 7 (29:31):
He wasn't saying anything mean to her, wasn't she wasn't
saying anything mean to him?

Speaker 6 (29:36):
Right?

Speaker 2 (29:36):
No?

Speaker 7 (29:37):
And at some point whatever was in the air drifted off, right, Yes,
he did. There was a time when there was some
picture taking. Was this done at the Grand Canyon? Two
pictures of Grand Canyon? Sedona and I have a suppie
as well, And.

Speaker 9 (29:54):
Was this picture taking that was done?

Speaker 7 (29:56):
Was there come a time when Travis was asked by
the defendant to stop so that the defendant could.

Speaker 9 (30:02):
Take picture while we were driving, while you were driving?

Speaker 4 (30:08):
That sounds familiar if it was, I want to say
from what I can remember that if that did occur,
it happened on our way to the Grand Canyon itself,
just before we arrived there, because I remember.

Speaker 9 (30:24):
So you remember on the drive up to the Grand
Tang right.

Speaker 4 (30:28):
I remember there was a point somewhere that they did
have a squawk something to do with taking photos, But
I don't remember.

Speaker 7 (30:37):
The specifics, and you don't remember any particularly biting comments
that mister Alexander may have made right, And you don't
remember any particularly biting comments that the defendant may have
made right. No, And when you got to have a
soupie to get back to that trip, that was what

(30:57):
three nights?

Speaker 3 (30:58):
Is that what it was? Three night? Well?

Speaker 4 (31:03):
I think it was four nights because I believe we
had three nights in the canyon or three full We
had two to two or three full days in the canyon,
if I recall maybe two.

Speaker 9 (31:13):
All right, and everyone had their hammock, right.

Speaker 3 (31:16):
Yes, we all had a hammock and sleeping back.

Speaker 7 (31:18):
At one point during the days, you did notice that
there was some tension again between the defendant and Minster Alexander.

Speaker 4 (31:25):
Right, Yes, it was the first day when we went
to go swimming in the first waterfall walking over, I
was walking by Travis initially, and we walked over towards
the falls, and my sister and Jody were talking behind us,
and we started to walk and we were talking, and
at some point it switched and Travis and Jody were talking.

Speaker 3 (31:45):
My sister and I walked ahead, right, and you could.

Speaker 9 (31:47):
Tell that they were having some sort of argument or problem.

Speaker 4 (31:50):
Right, Yeah, we were far enough ahead we couldn't hear
what they were saying, but I looked back and clearly
they were having a disagreement about something, and you and
your sister took off right We Yeah, I just kind
of waved and said we'll be over there, and we
went over and swam, and after.

Speaker 9 (32:05):
About an hour and a half they joined you.

Speaker 7 (32:08):
Right the.

Speaker 4 (32:10):
It was a substantial amount of time. We were done
swimming by any stretch of the imagination by.

Speaker 7 (32:15):
Then, all right, And when mister Alexander would put together
mister Alexander actually put the trip back to how a
supkes and when he would put these trips together, it's
true that in this particular case, you really didn't have
anybody to go with, and so that's why you invited
your sister. Right.

Speaker 4 (32:36):
It was the same on both trips for Sidona and
Green Canyon. As I thought about people I wanted to invite,
there wasn't anyone that I was dating at the time
that I wanted to take. And my sister was she
was safe for everyone, and that everyone in the whole
group could be themselves. So yes, and.

Speaker 7 (32:53):
After there is part of what was going on with
regard to the defendant and mister Alexander, is that part
of the reason that you went along was that he
didn't want to be alone with her?

Speaker 9 (33:04):
Right, Yes, he didn't want to be alone with her,
did he.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
In a conversation that.

Speaker 9 (33:12):
He had with me previous? Certain?

Speaker 7 (33:13):
Is just or no, he did not want to be alone.
You were going along as a chaperone, right.

Speaker 4 (33:17):
I don't know that I can say that he didn't
want to be alone with her, but he liked that
when other people, he liked that when I was there,
or when I and my sister were there, that they
weren't as physical. And you viewed your role as somewhat
of a chaperone, right, I didn't view my role that way.
Do you remember that we had a conversation about this

(33:38):
many years ago at your house?

Speaker 7 (33:42):
Do you remember that we talked about this? And do
you remember that this issue came up back then?

Speaker 4 (33:50):
I do not, But I can say that I could
see myself as a chaperone, okay, And it.

Speaker 9 (33:57):
Was because mister Alexander to be there in that role.

Speaker 4 (34:02):
Yeah?

Speaker 9 (34:02):
Correct?

Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (34:07):
How tall was mister Rallizanderser?

Speaker 4 (34:11):
That's a good question. Uh, he was about to my shoulder,
so five eight right, and you're how tall six y two?
So he came out to about your shoulder.

Speaker 9 (34:22):
Right, Yeah, And he wasn't an overly bat guy with it.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
No, he was fit.

Speaker 4 (34:27):
He worked out regularly ran when I lived with him,
he he was always working out and running, doing different things.

Speaker 9 (34:33):
And how tall was the defendant back then?

Speaker 4 (34:38):
I think she might be slightly taller to misster Rala Sandler,
but I'm not sure.

Speaker 3 (34:42):
I haven't.

Speaker 9 (34:43):
I don't have anything else.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
Thank you, redirect.

Speaker 9 (34:49):
Thank mister Freeman.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
You were asked about this what what was characterized as
you being a chaperone for this trip? In that regard,
let me back up. How does your church view two

(35:14):
individuals who aren't married the opposite sex traveling alone together.

Speaker 3 (35:24):
That depends on who you talk to.

Speaker 4 (35:26):
I don't think officially it's probably frowned upon, but traveling
together is probably not frowned upon as long as you're
not rooming together or staying in the same.

Speaker 3 (35:37):
Hotel room, things of that nature. But I know it's
not encouraged.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
Okay, But if you were sleeping in the same room
or same hotel room, or whatever the accommodations might be,
that would be problematic.

Speaker 3 (35:50):
Right, Yes, that would be discouraged.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
And if you had two other people there with you,
that would perhaps divert any suspicion or concerns in that regard, right, Yes, Okay,
you also were asked he said, well, he because he

(36:17):
didn't want to be alone with her. Were you in
any he being Travis and she being her being Jodie?
Did she force away onto this trip?

Speaker 8 (36:29):
No.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
We also talked about mister Alexander's fitness. You describe him
as being I believe to your shoulder, but you said
he worked out regularly.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
Did you observe him work out? Is that when you
lived together or did you work when we lived together?

Speaker 4 (36:49):
He would get up and go running every day, and
he had numerous exercises.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
He would do regularly.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
Okay, strong guy. Yeah, you see him lift a lot
of weights.

Speaker 3 (36:58):
Yeah, you would lift weights.

Speaker 2 (37:02):
Punching bag did you Did he have that when you
lived there? Or would you you ever see him strike anything.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Over?

Speaker 4 (37:18):
Yes, but I'm trying to remember when it was either
a punching bag or there was something like a punching bag.

Speaker 3 (37:24):
I don't remember if it was a punching bag, but
it was over the courses we would do the UFC fight.

Speaker 2 (37:30):
Nights, Powerful punch. Yes, you were asked about miss arius
is whether or not she would be worthy of being
baptized if she was performing oral sex upon mister Alexander, right, yes,

(37:56):
and your answer was that somebody wouldn't be worthy of
being baptized and if that.

Speaker 7 (38:01):
Was the case.

Speaker 5 (38:02):
Correct.

Speaker 2 (38:04):
But when we spoke earlier, we also talked about how
someone is attains the position for which they have the ability.
I think was your word to baptize someone right?

Speaker 9 (38:19):
Yes, and that.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Person a person who was receiving that oral sex, they
wouldn't be worthy of that title, correct, No, they.

Speaker 4 (38:34):
Would not be worthy to perform in the ordinances associated
with that office at that time until they had gone
through a repentance process.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
And when we're talking about office, are we talking about
when you said elder elder? Yes, So, based on your
experience in the church, then if someone in that position
of an elder were to be violating the vow of chastity,
they would lose their position in the church. Is that correct?

(39:03):
Or they would lose that status.

Speaker 4 (39:05):
They would not lose their status in that way. They
would go to if it is known that they are
breaking a lot of chastity within the church, especially with
another member as well. They will go to a disciplinary
council who will then determine what happens, whether they are
excommunicated or their priesthood office is removed, or they go

(39:27):
into a probationary period as for a year or for
however long is dictated by the disciplinary council.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
And what do you mean when you say probationary period?
What does that mean?

Speaker 4 (39:38):
If somebody goes into a probationary period, it's a term
in their membership where they aren't allowed to They can
come to the meetings and participate, but they're not allowed
to partake of the sacrament, to give talks, to have
a calling in the church, or to give prayers. And
it's different depending on it's up to the disciplineing council
what it looks like exactly. But in a probationary period,

(40:01):
they're only allowed to participate as the disciplinary council states,
and then they meet with that council regularly to update
them off their progress and how they're doing and the
areas of their life.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
In discussion, could the sanctions also include excommunication?

Speaker 3 (40:15):
Yes, they could.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
And if someone were to face that disciplinary council so
they couldn't take the sacrament at church, right, Yeah, tell
it's okay, and that would be apparent to fellow church
members if that was taking place, correct, not the disciplinary council.

Speaker 4 (40:41):
A lot of members may choose not to take the
sacrament one week just for how it's viewed.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
It's viewed as a it's viewed as a.

Speaker 4 (40:49):
Commitment throughout the week to remember Christ and your actions
and to follow the teachings which we've been taught within
the church. And so sometimes people who have felt that
they have slipped up during the week or they've done
something that they regret, especially if it's something larger, sometimes
they will, in a way of humbling themselves, for go
taking it until they have proven to themselves until they

(41:11):
feel worthy again to partake.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
So, if you slip up, so to speak, you're not
supposed to take the sacrament, Is that right.

Speaker 4 (41:20):
Or is that more of I guess it's personal decision.
At the same time, there are certain things like the
lot of chastity that you are supposed to address with
your bishop if you slip up in certain areas, a
lot of chastity, or the Word of wisdom, not drinking, smoking,
things like that. In other areas, the smaller things it's
personal discretion, because the sacrament is also a commitment to say,

(41:41):
I may have slipped up this week, but next week,
I will try my best to do better at those things.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
Okay, that makes sense.

Speaker 6 (41:51):
Now.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
During the entire time you knew mister Alexander and miss Areas,
whether they were boyfriend and girlfriend or not, did you
have any reason or were you in any impression that
Jody was quote unquote stocking Travis.

Speaker 4 (42:14):
No, I had no impression. I heard that from people
that they would say that who didn't know her. What
I saw, for the most part was Jody was confused
about where they stood as their relationship. She talked to
my mother and I and kind of the family. She
would voice her concerns about her uncertainty about where they
stood in the home with us. But she would, you know,

(42:38):
Travis would text. They would text each other, and she
would go swing by and they would hang out. And
so I heard the accusations that she was stocking, but
I always kind of shrugged them off because I never
saw anything in my experience to.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Dictate that would be fair to say. Your impression was
that Jody loved Travis.

Speaker 10 (42:55):
Yes, thank you, proud sure, uh And lack of others
sustained on foundation.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
Y, you may inquire further.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
You spent a lot of time with Travis and Jody together, right, Yes,
you went on trips together. Yes, you uh spent time
with miss Arius as uh someone you said that was
like a sister to you. Yes, you said she gave

(43:32):
signs to you that she was confused about her relationship
with Travis. Yes, based on all those conversations and all
the interaction and the interaction you saw with them together,
are you under the impression that Jody loved Travis.

Speaker 11 (43:55):
Went at any point in time, he sustained when they
were dating and.

Speaker 2 (44:07):
You went to have a soupie in two thousand and
seven in the summer, based on what you observed there,
do you believe Jodi loved her?

Speaker 3 (44:19):
Based on what I observed there, I believe she was.

Speaker 4 (44:24):
I believe that she did love him, but that she
was trying to figure out where they stood.

Speaker 3 (44:28):
She'd made comments to that I just want to know
where we stand. Sustained.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Was that without telling us what she said? Was that
the same impression about her loving Travis but being confused
that she had in the fall of two thousand and seven,
when she was hanging out with you and your family
discussing these.

Speaker 9 (44:49):
Things with regard to her feelings for Travis.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
Yes, yes, okay, and you also set in and having
tho feelings. Travis would call her text or whatever and
she would come over to his house. Right, yes, okay,
thank you.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
It looks like we have a few questions from the
jury council. Please approach mister Freeman. The jurors has some
questions for you. What is UFC fight Night.

Speaker 4 (45:23):
It's the Ultimate Fighting Championship. It's a televised cage fight.
And so every every time that they would have a fight,
Travis would have a televised He had a projector and
a big screen and surround sound on it, and he
would have a big fight night and everyone would come
out and bring potluck food, chips and salsa and dip
and pizza, and it was just kind of a big

(45:45):
party to get together for everybody to hang out and
talk and socialize.

Speaker 1 (45:50):
Were the arguments between Travis and Jody any different than
arguments between other couples.

Speaker 9 (45:55):
You have observed?

Speaker 3 (45:56):
I didn't think so.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
Were these normal arguments between a couple with respect to
the severity and way they fought? From your personal experience.

Speaker 3 (46:07):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
Did you ever see Travis hit Jody or be in
any way abusive to her?

Speaker 3 (46:14):
No?

Speaker 10 (46:14):
No, that's why.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
Aside from Jody, were there others not included in both
groups when events were held at Travis.

Speaker 4 (46:25):
My sister on occasion, and Aaron Dewey. He was a
roommate of Travis's as well. I don't know if he
was there when I would hang out with Travis and Jody,
but I know that he was there when Travis would
hang out with Jody as well because he was still
a roommate in the house.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Did you ever hear Travis call Jody names?

Speaker 4 (46:47):
No?

Speaker 1 (46:48):
Did you ever see Travis physically harm Jody?

Speaker 5 (46:52):
No?

Speaker 1 (46:53):
Follow up, mister Nerman than here you are.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
Could you explain to us you said you attended some
of these fight nights that mister Alexander would host. Maybe
the question makes me think, could you explain what we're
talking about?

Speaker 7 (47:15):
Here?

Speaker 2 (47:15):
Are we're talking about Olympic wrestling? What are we talking
these fights?

Speaker 7 (47:20):
Entail?

Speaker 6 (47:20):
Here?

Speaker 4 (47:21):
It's mixed martial arts, so boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, any
of the different styles as they're combined together. Various conglomerate
of mixed martial arts.

Speaker 3 (47:32):
In any form.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
You said that in very dignified fashion, mister Freeman. But
are these really brutal fights? Yeah, what we're talking about here, okay,
thank you.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
From the state. Any other questions from the jury, Ladies
and gentlemen. We are going to take the noon recess
at this time. Please be back in the designated area
at one twenty five and we will start promptly at
one thirty. Please remember the app conisi, have a nice lunch.

(48:27):
Please be seated. The record will show the presence of
the jury, the defendant, and all counsel. Ladies and gentlemen.
Thank you very much for your patients. I know you
were waiting for us. We were working diligently, so I
do appreciate you being patient with us. The defense may
call us next witness.

Speaker 6 (48:48):
Your defense called money morning.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
Mister Dorkan, please come forward, please hold you last.

Speaker 5 (48:53):
Night morning isn't David w o R Okay?

Speaker 7 (48:57):
I ed?

Speaker 6 (48:59):
Did you write him?

Speaker 9 (49:00):
You do solid where the testimony You're about to give you.

Speaker 6 (49:02):
The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Speaker 5 (49:04):
So help you, guys, I do.

Speaker 6 (49:05):
Thank you, good afternoon. Could you tell us your name please?

Speaker 8 (49:25):
Lonnie Lonnie d wark In spelled l O and N
I E. Dias and David W.

Speaker 5 (49:33):
O R K I N.

Speaker 6 (49:35):
I'm mister Dwarkan. What is it that you do for
a living.

Speaker 5 (49:39):
I'm a computer forensic examiner.

Speaker 6 (49:42):
What does that mean?

Speaker 8 (49:43):
I work on criminal and civil cases that involve digital evidence.

Speaker 5 (49:48):
The digital evidence.

Speaker 8 (49:49):
Can be in the format of a hard drive, a
cell phone, audio forensics.

Speaker 5 (49:55):
Most evidence items in the digital domain.

Speaker 6 (49:59):
And what kind of training experience do you have to
do that?

Speaker 8 (50:02):
Well? I have a degree in electrical engineering I received
from Boston University. I worked for the US Navy for
approximately seven and a half years in a variety of
engineering and project management capacity. I worked for Intel Corporation
in a variety of roles including product design and development,

(50:23):
software validation, verification, as well as part of their quality
organization providing consulting into different organizations worldwide on.

Speaker 5 (50:35):
Systems development.

Speaker 8 (50:37):
And then after that, when I separated from Intel, I
started my current company, comp Before LLC, and in preparation
for that, I took a number of technology training classes
in the area of some of the forensic tools that
I use, such as en Case and FTK. These are
forensic tools as well as over the years I've been

(50:59):
doing this now for approximately eleven years, and I have
attended conferences and additional training annually.

Speaker 6 (51:10):
Mentioned some of the tools that you use, like end case.

Speaker 12 (51:13):
Are these some of the same forensic tools that police
officers are used.

Speaker 8 (51:19):
Yes, I've always made it a point to use the
same tools that local, state, and federal law enforcement uses
to the extent that they were available to me as
a defense expert, and so end case is a very
popular tool for mostly local, but federal also uses on occasion.

Speaker 6 (51:38):
All right, and then do you continue with ongoing education?

Speaker 5 (51:42):
Yes?

Speaker 8 (51:42):
Every year I attend boot camps and training sessions as
part of conferences, or I'll attend specialized training to stay
apprized of new developments and technology and tools.

Speaker 12 (51:57):
Right, and were you retained in this case in mysterious' case?

Speaker 6 (52:02):
Yes, I was retained at what were you retained to do?

Speaker 8 (52:05):
I was retained originally I believe to look at some
computer evidence, and throughout my retaining I have provided computer
forensic services in a variety of technologies, including cell phone
technology and computers.

Speaker 5 (52:25):
OK.

Speaker 12 (52:25):
Right, so let's we can be more specific, I guess
let's talk about some of the things that you did.
Did you take a look at some of the things
that Mesa Police Department had taken in as evidence.

Speaker 6 (52:37):
Yes, And did you view them forensically? Did you do
your own forensic work on them?

Speaker 5 (52:43):
Yes.

Speaker 12 (52:46):
I want to talk to you specifically about something that
was labeled by MASA PDA number three nine zero six
three three.

Speaker 5 (52:51):
Are you familiar with that six three three yes?

Speaker 6 (52:54):
Do you know what that is?

Speaker 8 (52:55):
That is, as I understand the victim's laptop or computer.

Speaker 9 (53:04):
Okay?

Speaker 6 (53:05):
Is that a compact persario?

Speaker 5 (53:06):
Yes, I believe it is.

Speaker 6 (53:09):
And when you're.

Speaker 12 (53:10):
Working on these things, do you use the same numbers
that MASONPD uses.

Speaker 5 (53:15):
Yes.

Speaker 8 (53:15):
I adopt their nomenclature, their numbering system to make it
easier for comparing my results to their results. So when
I talked about evidence item six three three, we're all
talking about the same thing. If I have evidence that's
brought to me that's that didn't come from law enforcement,

(53:36):
let's say, then I would assign my own nomenclature to it,
using my own internal standards.

Speaker 6 (53:41):
Okay.

Speaker 12 (53:42):
So one of the things that you did with Travis's laptop,
did you well, were you aware that MASIPD had also
forensically reviewed it?

Speaker 5 (53:52):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (53:53):
Okay, and part of.

Speaker 12 (53:55):
Your forensic review, what does that mean what are you
doing to that computer?

Speaker 6 (54:02):
I can send specifically the compact.

Speaker 5 (54:05):
Well, I can speak to my standard protocol.

Speaker 8 (54:09):
I follow this for every piece of evidence that I handle.
When I'm provided a forensic copy of a computer's hard
drive from law enforcement or from another expert for that matter,
it's provided to me in a forensic format that it's
known as an EO one or zero one file format,

(54:33):
and that's because that's a file format that is associated
with the forensic tool end case that we use.

Speaker 5 (54:40):
End Case is the product name. It's made by a
company out of Pasadena called Guidance Software.

Speaker 8 (54:46):
And so when I receive this evidence copy from law enforcement,
it has certain safeguards in it to help us ensure
the quality of the evidence, to make sure that bits
didn't inadvertently flip or change.

Speaker 5 (55:01):
It's a way for us to verify.

Speaker 8 (55:03):
That the copy I have is exactly the copy that
they have and nothing inadvertently changed.

Speaker 5 (55:10):
The copy unprovided is a read only copy. I can't make.

Speaker 8 (55:13):
Changes to it, so that's a nice safeguard as well.
And the standard protocol that I was trained in and
the training classes I've taken from Guidance Software is often
attended jointly with members from local, state, and federal law enforcement.

Speaker 5 (55:29):
We all follow the same protocol.

Speaker 8 (55:32):
Essentially, we will mount the evidence item and the first
thing we'll do is we'll verify to make sure.

Speaker 5 (55:38):
The evidence is intact. I don't know how much detail
you want me go into beyond that, but I can
go into further.

Speaker 8 (55:45):
Detail if you wish, but I can go into the
next step of the process.

Speaker 6 (55:49):
What is the next step?

Speaker 8 (55:50):
The next step would be to recover lost folders. Essentially,
when parent folders are deleted, oftentimes the child folders or
sub folders can still be recovered intact with their names
and metadata. And so there's an end script. It's a
feature built into the end case tool that allows us

(56:13):
to quickly recover those items.

Speaker 5 (56:17):
The next standard step is to was that clear? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (56:21):
Okay.

Speaker 8 (56:22):
The next step I always follow is I run a
file signature verification. I've learned through my training and experience
sometimes people tried to hide information because by changing the
file extension.

Speaker 5 (56:36):
Of a file.

Speaker 8 (56:37):
So, for example, if you wanted to hide a photograph,
you could simply just change the file extension of the
photograph from dot jpg or jpeg to doc and the
computer system and the registry.

Speaker 5 (56:50):
You would think it's a document.

Speaker 8 (56:52):
So if you were to click on that file to
try to open it as a document and report that
the file is corrupted, but in fact the person merely
changed the extension. So to make our examinations more efficient
and faster, there are special scripts we can run to
test for those kinds of conditions. And so the way

(57:12):
the script works is it reads the actual file header
for specific file types to flag it to see if
the extension matches the header. And so that's just a
normal practice. Sometimes extensions could get changed accidentally or so
it's just a good practice to do that.

Speaker 5 (57:30):
So that would be the next step that I ran.

Speaker 8 (57:33):
After that, then the exam would turn towards specific areas
of interest for that particular case.

Speaker 12 (57:41):
Okay, and so the specific area of interest with the compact,
did you take a look at the Internet history?

Speaker 5 (57:49):
Yes, I ran.

Speaker 8 (57:51):
Actually two types of recovery end cases. I mentioned is
a forensic tool and has some wonderful built in features
that allows us or helps us facilitate the recovery of
certain types of information. One of the types of information
is internet history. Internet history is very interesting in that
when you surf the internet, if you're using if you're

(58:13):
a Windows user and you're using Internet Explore, there is
a log file that's maintained that's not immediately visible to
the user.

Speaker 5 (58:22):
The user may or may.

Speaker 8 (58:25):
Have an indication there's a log file there because oftentimes
you can go back and look at your surfing history for.

Speaker 5 (58:30):
That day, or that week or that month.

Speaker 8 (58:33):
So if you want to go back to a site
that you enjoyed, it makes it easy to do that.

Speaker 5 (58:37):
That's captured in a log file.

Speaker 8 (58:39):
That's one of the hidden files on the computer, and
en case has the ability to recover these log files.

Speaker 5 (58:49):
The way the computer works is it will.

Speaker 8 (58:51):
Take the daily surfing data or log file, and it'll
consolidate it into a weekly file, and they'll delete the
daily file. Then it'll take the weekly log file and
it'll consolidate it into a master log file.

Speaker 5 (59:05):
And that's how it works.

Speaker 8 (59:06):
That's how it knows what you serve today versus yesterday
versus last month. N case has the ability to not
only display or present the current log files, but it
has the ability to recover identify previously deleted log files,
and it can.

Speaker 5 (59:23):
Do this with multiple web browsers.

Speaker 8 (59:25):
As I'm sure you're aware, there's Internet Explorer, there is
Firefox Safari is also used on the PC now, as
well as a Google Chrome. And so n case has
the ability ability to recover these types of records.

Speaker 12 (59:42):
And did you specifically look at the compact as far
as Internet history?

Speaker 5 (59:49):
Yes? I did, okay, and may approach judge.

Speaker 6 (59:57):
When you do that, do you create a report?

Speaker 8 (01:00:00):
Yes, I have the ability to generate a report, and
this looks like a standard in case formatted report.

Speaker 6 (01:00:06):
And I'm showing you what's the marked exhibit number four nineteen.

Speaker 12 (01:00:13):
When you generate a report, does it tell us then
in your report?

Speaker 6 (01:00:16):
Does it tell us some of that Internet history?

Speaker 5 (01:00:19):
Yes, it tells us the.

Speaker 8 (01:00:23):
Log file that the entry was recovered from. So I'm
going to just pick one here.

Speaker 12 (01:00:27):
It says, yeah, don't tell me specifically yet what the
exhibit is, but when basically when you run that report,
can we learn then the timing of when that internet
or that.

Speaker 6 (01:00:40):
Specific history on the Internet occurred?

Speaker 5 (01:00:42):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:00:43):
Can we learn the date?

Speaker 7 (01:00:45):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:00:46):
And did you view exhibit number four nineteen yes?

Speaker 12 (01:00:51):
Is that a copy of your report with regard to
the compact part of it?

Speaker 5 (01:00:54):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:00:56):
I judge the defense would move in Exhibit number four nineteen.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Years zio.

Speaker 12 (01:01:07):
The three pages that I handed you, that's just a
limited part of your report, is that right?

Speaker 5 (01:01:11):
Yes? The pages are number okay?

Speaker 12 (01:01:14):
And actually I know that these pages are numbered one thousand,
five hundred and five through one thousand, five hundred.

Speaker 5 (01:01:20):
And seven, correctly.

Speaker 12 (01:01:21):
So does that mean your report is probably longer than
one thousand, five hundred and.

Speaker 5 (01:01:25):
Seven pages potentially?

Speaker 6 (01:01:27):
Okay?

Speaker 12 (01:01:27):
And exhibit number four nineteen does this have to deal
with just a specific.

Speaker 6 (01:01:32):
Time period on June fourth? The Internet history I'm talking about,
do you see it?

Speaker 5 (01:01:38):
Well, that's a subset of the report.

Speaker 8 (01:01:40):
So whatever items are on that those particular selected pages,
that's the only time frame you see. My full report
did not filter and for any particular time period.

Speaker 6 (01:01:51):
Okay. Right, So in other words, if we want to,
if we want to know about a.

Speaker 12 (01:01:54):
Specific time period, we can flip through the pages and
find that in the report that is correct?

Speaker 9 (01:01:58):
Okay.

Speaker 6 (01:01:59):
At this time, Judge's defense would move in exhibit number
four nineteen.

Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
Any additional objections.

Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
Objection overworlded Exhibit four nineteen will be admitted.

Speaker 6 (01:02:08):
May I approach you?

Speaker 1 (01:02:09):
May?

Speaker 5 (01:02:13):
Okay?

Speaker 6 (01:02:13):
So based on that part, can you tell us in
the on the first page.

Speaker 12 (01:02:19):
We're talking about when that compact was first was access
during that time?

Speaker 6 (01:02:24):
Does it give you a time?

Speaker 5 (01:02:27):
I'm sorry, can you ask you that question again?

Speaker 6 (01:02:28):
Yeah, let me do that again. Okay, So tell it.

Speaker 12 (01:02:31):
There's a lot of information in each little square of
separate time piece. Can you tell us what that information?
Generally speaking? What information is it giving us?

Speaker 8 (01:02:42):
Well, each piece is essentially a logged event. So it
could have been a user the result of a user interaction,
for example, typing in a URL and hitting enter. It
could be the result of a redirect on the Internet.
So each action is logged. On the sixty three computer

(01:03:04):
for example, I think there were over ninety nine thousand entries.

Speaker 5 (01:03:09):
Some of them are redundant, not all of them are unique.

Speaker 6 (01:03:13):
Okay, And so can we look at the first action.

Speaker 5 (01:03:17):
At the very top of the first page.

Speaker 6 (01:03:19):
I don't think that one's complete.

Speaker 5 (01:03:20):
I think it's not portion. So the first fold, the
first full action.

Speaker 6 (01:03:25):
Yes, can you tell us about the first full action?
What is it telling us?

Speaker 8 (01:03:32):
Well, it's a it's an action that documents a website
that was visited and the dayton time the website was visited.

Speaker 6 (01:03:45):
Okay, can you tell us what website was visited.

Speaker 5 (01:03:47):
Yes, it was YouTube dot.

Speaker 6 (01:03:49):
Com okay, and the dayton time.

Speaker 8 (01:03:51):
The Dayton time is June fourth, two thousand and eight,
at four oh eight eleven am, So.

Speaker 12 (01:04:00):
For eight am and eleven seconds that you said yes, okay.

Speaker 6 (01:04:06):
What else does it tell us?

Speaker 8 (01:04:09):
It tells us the browser type in this case it's Mozilla,
which is a form of a Firefox.

Speaker 6 (01:04:16):
And does it tell anything else?

Speaker 5 (01:04:18):
It tells us that the profile name that was used
was Deanna Read.

Speaker 6 (01:04:26):
And what's the profile name?

Speaker 8 (01:04:28):
The profile name is going to be the user account
on the computer that was that the internet event was
accessed with. So, for example, with a Deanna Read account,
someone was logged into that account and then went to
this website and the log captured the website information and

(01:04:50):
the user profile that was used to visit that website
on the computer.

Speaker 12 (01:04:54):
How does a user profile name typically get onto a computer?

Speaker 8 (01:04:58):
Usually, when you purchase a computer, it asks you to
set up your user account. Oftentimes people will provide their
first and last name, and subsequently, when you access to
your computer, especially if you use a password, it'll present
you with your with the account name and you might
log in.

Speaker 5 (01:05:17):
If you've used the password. So usually the user will
create the.

Speaker 8 (01:05:23):
Login account or it just depends on the history of
the computer, if it was used or if it's a
company computer, obviously that would vary.

Speaker 6 (01:05:31):
Okay. And does it tell us anything else in that action?

Speaker 8 (01:05:36):
Yes, it tells us the name of a file that
was accessed the YouTube, a file that was accessed, okay?

Speaker 9 (01:05:46):
And what was that?

Speaker 5 (01:05:47):
The title of the file is.

Speaker 8 (01:05:51):
Drunk in parentheses, death, punk, hard, Bodies, Faster, Stronger, and
then close parent Okay.

Speaker 6 (01:06:01):
Is that all the information it tells us?

Speaker 5 (01:06:02):
And that yes, it has of course the path.

Speaker 8 (01:06:06):
So if we went back to YouTube, if this video
was still there, we could conceivably view it.

Speaker 12 (01:06:12):
Oh, okay, all right, So based on that information, does
that mean that that particular computer was being used at
four oh eight in the morning, yes, and visiting that
particular website?

Speaker 5 (01:06:25):
Correct?

Speaker 3 (01:06:26):
Okay?

Speaker 6 (01:06:27):
What's can you go to the next action?

Speaker 5 (01:06:29):
The next action? A second? There's another action at the
bottom of the page.

Speaker 3 (01:06:33):
Okay.

Speaker 6 (01:06:33):
And can you tell us the website.

Speaker 5 (01:06:39):
The website or Europe?

Speaker 6 (01:06:42):
Okay, I can start at the time. What's the time?

Speaker 9 (01:06:44):
The time is.

Speaker 5 (01:06:48):
For eleven am in the morning and four seconds?

Speaker 6 (01:06:53):
Okay? And what's the website? Oh, what's the date?

Speaker 5 (01:06:56):
The date is also June fourth, two thousand.

Speaker 6 (01:06:59):
And and what's the website?

Speaker 5 (01:07:03):
The website is YouTube dot com.

Speaker 6 (01:07:06):
All right, and specifically, does it tell us specifically.

Speaker 5 (01:07:10):
Which the title of the video that was viewed.

Speaker 8 (01:07:14):
The title of the video that was viewed is daf
hands dash Harder, Comma better, Comma faster, Comma stronger.

Speaker 6 (01:07:23):
Okay, And to the next action.

Speaker 5 (01:07:31):
Okay, I'm on page fifteen zero six.

Speaker 6 (01:07:34):
All right, Let's start with the date.

Speaker 8 (01:07:35):
Okay, June fourth, two thousand and eight, and the time
it's four fifteen and thirteen seconds in the morning.

Speaker 6 (01:07:42):
Okay on the website.

Speaker 5 (01:07:45):
The website is again YouTube dot com.

Speaker 6 (01:07:48):
And does it tell us specifically we're on YouTube.

Speaker 8 (01:07:51):
The name of the title of this file is dafhands
double speed in Parenz faster Comma better, all.

Speaker 6 (01:08:00):
Right, And then to the next action.

Speaker 5 (01:08:04):
The date. Yes, the date is June fourth, two thousand
and eight.

Speaker 8 (01:08:09):
The time is four twenty four and zero seconds in
the morning.

Speaker 5 (01:08:13):
Am.

Speaker 8 (01:08:15):
The website is the same YouTube dot com. And the
title of the video that was watched was free web
proxydh air dash proxy dot com.

Speaker 6 (01:08:26):
Okay, and is there another action? Yes, and tell us
that one please.

Speaker 8 (01:08:34):
The date is June fourth, two thousand and eight, at
four thirty and twenty seven seconds in the morning.

Speaker 5 (01:08:43):
The profile name is the.

Speaker 8 (01:08:44):
Same, it has not changed. It's still Deanna Read. And
at this point now we're looking at Gmail. The actual
url is mail dot Google dot com.

Speaker 5 (01:08:54):
Which I know is Gmail.

Speaker 6 (01:08:56):
Okay.

Speaker 8 (01:08:58):
And the next action, the next section. The date is
June fourth, two thousand and eight. The time is four
thirty three and fifty five seconds in the morning.

Speaker 5 (01:09:11):
The browser is still Mozilla. Okay.

Speaker 8 (01:09:13):
The type URL is www dot Travis Alexander dot net.
The profile name is still Deanna Reid, and the actual
URL that was accessed was page add two dot Google sync,

(01:09:40):
Google syndication dot com.

Speaker 6 (01:09:43):
Okay, And is there one more action?

Speaker 4 (01:09:46):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:09:47):
And what's the date on that?

Speaker 8 (01:09:49):
The date is also June fourth, two thousand and eight.
The time is four thirty five and forty five seconds
in the morning.

Speaker 5 (01:09:58):
Still Mozilla.

Speaker 8 (01:10:01):
The r L that was accessed is Travis Alexander dot debt.

Speaker 5 (01:10:08):
And then there's a path. Do you want me to
read the path as well? Now, that's fine, okay. And
then it's it's Deanna read as well.

Speaker 8 (01:10:20):
And the Google syndication dot dot com as well.

Speaker 5 (01:10:25):
Is the u r L.

Speaker 6 (01:10:26):
Okay, So is that the last action?

Speaker 5 (01:10:29):
That is the last action?

Speaker 6 (01:10:30):
Okay?

Speaker 12 (01:10:32):
And so based on that information, can you tell us
then that that computer was being accessed at four thirty
five in the morning.

Speaker 5 (01:10:38):
Yes, and that.

Speaker 6 (01:10:42):
And between the hour of I think when did we
start four or four in the morning?

Speaker 12 (01:10:47):
Four eight four four eight in the morning to four
thirty five, it was being accessed.

Speaker 5 (01:10:53):
Correct.

Speaker 6 (01:10:56):
All right, let's talk about your work that you did
on an external drive, okay, okay?

Speaker 12 (01:11:01):
And I'm talking about uh one that was initially broken.

Speaker 6 (01:11:05):
Yes, okay, do you remember when you received that?

Speaker 5 (01:11:11):
No, I don't have to look at my records.

Speaker 6 (01:11:12):
Can you do that please?

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
Yes? Is that possible?

Speaker 5 (01:11:16):
I'd bead my F four.

Speaker 13 (01:11:22):
Thank you, m jay the in tire fold or justice now.

Speaker 7 (01:11:51):
Good?

Speaker 12 (01:11:52):
Did you have to lead it?

Speaker 5 (01:11:53):
Okay?

Speaker 6 (01:11:57):
Okay, then you did it?

Speaker 7 (01:11:58):
Fortunately one just did mark that rehearsal recolitions.

Speaker 6 (01:12:02):
When you received the hard drive, the external drive?

Speaker 5 (01:12:04):
Yes, a right?

Speaker 12 (01:12:05):
When was that?

Speaker 8 (01:12:06):
It was on October twenty fifth, twenty twelve, at approximately
eleven twenty six in the morning.

Speaker 6 (01:12:14):
And uh what is it that you received?

Speaker 8 (01:12:19):
I received a two and a half inch internal hard drive.
That's the size of a hard drive you would find
in a laptop and a bag of parts from an
ex external enclosure that would be appropriate for use with

(01:12:40):
that hard drive. So it appeared that that hard drive
may have been in that closure at some point. But
this enclosure was provided to me as a.

Speaker 5 (01:12:47):
Bag of parts.

Speaker 12 (01:12:48):
Okay, And actually, did you receive a mirror image or
something something?

Speaker 6 (01:12:53):
Did you receive something else?

Speaker 12 (01:12:55):
I think in November that had to do with this
external drive.

Speaker 6 (01:13:01):
A mirror image? Yes, okay, when was that received?

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
I use it four twenty two. Does that refresh your
recollections to when did receive the marriamage?

Speaker 5 (01:13:12):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:13:13):
All right? And when was that?

Speaker 8 (01:13:14):
That was on November fifth, two thousand twelve, at approximately.

Speaker 5 (01:13:21):
Four fifty seven.

Speaker 8 (01:13:25):
And I can't reuse it's AM or PM. And it
wasn't received directly by me. It was received by a
representative of my office.

Speaker 6 (01:13:34):
Okay. And what were you asked to do with that marriage? Well,
let me ask you this. I'm sorry. What's a mirror image?

Speaker 8 (01:13:43):
A mirror image is another term that's used for a
forensic copy.

Speaker 5 (01:13:48):
So earlier in our.

Speaker 8 (01:13:49):
Discussion, we talked about my having received a copy of
the victim's laptop from the MESA police department in a
forensic format.

Speaker 5 (01:13:59):
This also is the exact same format, just a different
evidence item, different hard drive.

Speaker 12 (01:14:04):
Okay, all right, And what were you asked to do?

Speaker 5 (01:14:09):
I was asked. I don't recall what I was nice
to do?

Speaker 12 (01:14:12):
Were you asked to pull photographs everything you can off
of the mirror image?

Speaker 8 (01:14:15):
I was asked to process the hard drive using my
standard protocol. I don't recall without looking at any notes,
what specifically I was asked to do.

Speaker 5 (01:14:26):
I do remember phone's standard protocol.

Speaker 6 (01:14:28):
Okay, So that standard protocol would that involve using end case?

Speaker 5 (01:14:32):
It would involve using end case.

Speaker 8 (01:14:36):
I believe on all of the evidence items I had received,
I recovered all photographs, messages, and intered at history, so
I would expect I had done the same with this
device as well. However, this particular forensic copy posed a
unique challenge. What was that the copy I received was

(01:15:00):
made from the original hard drive, But the original hard
drive was not functioning.

Speaker 5 (01:15:05):
It was damaged as it was related to me.

Speaker 8 (01:15:09):
And therefore the hard drive had to be sent out
from MASONPD, as I understand it, to a specialty service
to try to make the hard drive operational, and then
Once that was accomplished by this third party, they created
a end case or forensic image and returned it to MASONPD,

(01:15:32):
and then I received a copy from them.

Speaker 6 (01:15:35):
Okay.

Speaker 8 (01:15:36):
And so normally, if I receive a forensic copy and
the copy was made from a working computer, a working
hard drive, I can easily add it to my forensic
tool and I can open it up and it'll appear
to me as any Windows hard drive. I will see
a file system, I'll see folders, and I'll see files.
In this case, because the first sectors of the hard

(01:15:59):
drive had been damaged, the master file table that enables
or establishes the filesystem, the folders, file.

Speaker 5 (01:16:12):
Names, and such had been damaged, and so I.

Speaker 8 (01:16:16):
Had to run some extra special or some unique scripts
and do a little bit of searching to essentially reconstitute
the filesystem. NTIA Filesystems this is the common file system
often used by Windows, certainly Windows XP and Windows version
seven often has a backup and I was able to

(01:16:39):
search the hard drive and locate the backup file system,
and using that, I was now able to view.

Speaker 5 (01:16:50):
The content on the hard drive.

Speaker 8 (01:16:52):
However, I was also aware that the copy I was
presented the portions that have been damaged had in its
place of having the normal bits that we expect to see,
the service had written unrecoverable. So I knew those sectors
were not usable and did not have any evidentiary value.

Speaker 6 (01:17:12):
Okay. Ultimately, were you able to pull different information using
in case, off of this mirror image?

Speaker 5 (01:17:19):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:17:20):
And with some of that information photos yes?

Speaker 12 (01:17:24):
And uh when you pull photos off or you, were
you always able to get information about when.

Speaker 6 (01:17:30):
Those photos were taken?

Speaker 5 (01:17:31):
Not always?

Speaker 6 (01:17:32):
Is that due to the damage on the external drive?

Speaker 5 (01:17:38):
Some of it, yes, and some of it know?

Speaker 12 (01:17:39):
Okay, Judge Coach, I'm sure I knew Exhibits number three
ninety four and three ninety three.

Speaker 2 (01:17:49):
Yes, where those those two.

Speaker 6 (01:17:54):
Photos that were taken off of this mirror image?

Speaker 5 (01:17:56):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:17:57):
And I see there's a timestamp on on the front
of the photos.

Speaker 8 (01:18:01):
Is that right?

Speaker 5 (01:18:02):
Correct?

Speaker 6 (01:18:03):
Is that something you put on there?

Speaker 1 (01:18:05):
No?

Speaker 6 (01:18:05):
Okay, So what does that come with the photo? That timestamp?

Speaker 5 (01:18:10):
This is how the photo appeared to me on the
evident side of it.

Speaker 6 (01:18:13):
Okay, all right, Defense moves, I forgot the numbers. Defense
moves ten or Exhibits.

Speaker 5 (01:18:20):
Number nine nine four four O.

Speaker 9 (01:18:24):
You may.

Speaker 2 (01:18:27):
That's it.

Speaker 1 (01:18:28):
He's asking to border or the witness you may.

Speaker 9 (01:18:32):
Sir, with regard to that part of the human buying
that's there. Do you know who it belongs to?

Speaker 5 (01:18:39):
I do not.

Speaker 9 (01:18:40):
That's not your area of expertise, do you is it?

Speaker 5 (01:18:43):
No?

Speaker 7 (01:18:43):
It is not object coup the grounds of reminance and
lack of foundation.

Speaker 1 (01:18:47):
No, you may approach, ladies and gentlemen, we are going
to take the recess at this time. Please be back
in the designated area on Monday at ten thirty am.
We will start promptly at that time. Have an weekend.
Please remember the admonition. You are excused, all right, Hencel?

(01:19:14):
Is there anything else for today?

Speaker 2 (01:19:15):
You're agreedly Obviously, today's events may may gild rise or
the rise to the need, I should say, to alter
the schedule of proceedings in terms of our experts and.

Speaker 5 (01:19:31):
That sort of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
In that regard, we had discussed the motion of the
Prostitute of Mars conduct motions and missus he was coming
to testify on the thirteenth, and I just wanted to
know if that is going to happen in terms of
scheduling our experts, and.

Speaker 14 (01:19:53):
I would ask that mister seriously also be here on
the thirteenth. So I know that Scout Hughes will be
here on the thirteenth as directed, but I'm also asking
that guy Seriously be here.

Speaker 2 (01:20:06):
Also, Judge, mister as discaus mister Seriously requested to appear telephonically.
He did not advise the thirteenth of being a day
that he was available to.

Speaker 9 (01:20:22):
Be in Arizona.

Speaker 1 (01:20:23):
All right, Well, I will allow mister Seriously to appear telephonically,
but he will need to be available when we call him,
so you will need to have a number where we
can reach him.

Speaker 2 (01:20:33):
I will work on making that happen. So I assume
then we will not be in front of the jury
on the third, the afternoon of the thirteenth.

Speaker 3 (01:20:41):
That is correct.

Speaker 1 (01:20:42):
We will complete the evident you're hearing on the thirteenth.

Speaker 9 (01:20:44):
And Judge, I know that I'm going to be asked
about this. May Miss Hughes also appears on pronically.

Speaker 1 (01:20:51):
Well, mister Seriously has already been to court and appeared,
or has had an opportunity to judge his credibility to
see him in person.

Speaker 6 (01:21:00):
I have not had that benefit of that with Miss Hughes.

Speaker 1 (01:21:03):
So unless there's a stipulation between the parties, she should
be here in person.

Speaker 2 (01:21:10):
I will contemplate her, but I highly doubt that I
would agree to that.

Speaker 6 (01:21:14):
Okay, sure, even sat down?

Speaker 5 (01:21:17):
Thank you?

Speaker 1 (01:21:18):
Is there anything else?

Speaker 7 (01:21:20):
All right?

Speaker 3 (01:21:20):
Thank you?