Day 16

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
The serious Please take.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Before you just ask the ass I'm customary.

Speaker 3 (00:10):
I guess that the jury be asked about and take
the coverage today.

Speaker 1 (00:35):
Please be seated.

Speaker 4 (00:36):
The record will show the presence of the jury, the defendant,
and all counsel. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Have any
of you seen any coverage of this case in the media.
Did you hear anything, see anything? Did anyone talk to
you about this case? If so, please raise I see
no hands serious. You are still under oath. Do you understand,

(00:59):
mister Neurmi, you make continue with direct examination.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
Thank you, you are more enjoyed it.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
Good morning.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
Last week when we ended, we were speaking about the
UH gift you received for Valentine's Day UH from mister
Alexander in two thousand seven. And one of the things
we talked about you receiving and we talked about you
receiving a few things, but showing you exhibit number four seventeen.

(01:35):
The package you received contain this T shirt and this
pair of shorts or underwear?

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Right, yes, yes?

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Would you be sa is there a is there a
story behind this or while you received these particular items.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
There's a story behind the T shirt. The shorts run expected.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
Okay, well, tell us what's the story behind the T shirts.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Well, sometimes Travis would come out to California and we
would go to Super Saturdays in Anaheim together. And I
was new, so there were people that would introduce me
to other people in the company, and if it was
a man, he always wanted to know what we were
talking about. He would be very inquisitive. And he started
making this joke and said, I'm gonna get you a
T shirt this is Travis Alexander, so you can wear

(02:26):
it to all the prepay legal events.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
And this was the shirt that he had, as you said,
joked about, right.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
Yeah, we just joked about. He joked about it occasionally
would bring it up. He didn't attend all of the
Super Saturdays in California, so sometimes I would go and
he would inquire what happened, who I met, that kind
of thing, And so it was a joke that came
up occasionally from December through January.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Now, you were telling us last week that the other
item you received from mister Alexander was a was some
Spider Man underwear. To be clear, could you describe it
for us? Was this one pair? Was this several pairs?

Speaker 1 (03:08):
It was a package. I don't remember how many were
in the package, but there were three designs, like three styles.
I mean they were all the same cut, but they
had three different patterns. They were all spider Man.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
And to your recollection, this package of underwear that we're
talking about, was this Did this say because women's or
girls or boys? What did it say on it?

Speaker 1 (03:36):
I don't remember the size, but they were definitely for
little boys. I thought maybe he was.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
When you saw this package of underwear, were you surprised?

Speaker 1 (03:54):
I was a little confused.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Okay. And did you talk to mister Alexander on the
what day did you receive this package?

Speaker 1 (04:08):
Do you remember? I think it was on Valentine's Day
or maybe a day or two before or after. It
was right on the holiday or right near it?

Speaker 2 (04:15):
Okay? And did you speak with mister Alexander the day
that you received this gift? Yes, apart from being confused.
Did you feel anything else other than confusion when you
receive this boy's underwear?

Speaker 5 (04:32):
No?

Speaker 1 (04:32):
At the time, I received Victoria's Secret catalogs at my house,
and there was this trend in women's lingerie at the
time that kind of had boys briefs, boys style briefs
or men's style briefs, but they were designed for women's bodies,
so I figured he also received Victoria's secret catalog, so
I figured maybe it was something to that effect. And
he didn't understand the difference in body shapes, and I

(04:53):
thought that he was kind of going with that trend.
That was my thought. I was giving him the benefit
of the doubt.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
When you talk to him that day, did he explain
to you well, first of all, after speaking with him,
was there any doubt that he sent to those to
you intentionally?

Speaker 1 (05:14):
After speaking to him, No, there was no doubt.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
Okay, And why do you say that?

Speaker 1 (05:22):
Well? I called him and we discussed what I received
and kind of laughed about it. And then I said,
what's with the spideys? I called him spideys?

Speaker 2 (05:32):
And he certainly hasn't done that. All right?

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Ask another question?

Speaker 2 (05:41):
Did he wish you to wear this underwear?

Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Does this something that fit on your body?

Speaker 1 (05:50):
He asked me to try them on while he was
on the phone.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
And here's this objection, your honor, it's improper.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Oh, will ask another question?

Speaker 2 (06:01):
He wanted you to try on these boys underwear?

Speaker 1 (06:05):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (06:07):
And did they fit.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
The the seat of the underwear fit, but the lag holes,
the openings were too small, they were really tight.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
Was he pretty ins I? I did you advise him
that they didn't fit?

Speaker 1 (06:26):
I just told him the leg openings were very tight.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Hearsay, that's exactly responsive and it's not hearsay. Even though
that they did not fit. Was there a continued and
insistence on mister Alexander's part that you try on or
that you make accommodations with that underwear so you could

(06:53):
wear them.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
Yes, he suggested a few ideas.

Speaker 2 (07:00):
Ask another question, I'll be a month for the truth
of matter, secret judgement, I understand.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
Ask another question.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
Did you have to make alterations to the underwear in
order to get them to fit?

Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (07:16):
Did Travis encourage you to make these alterations?

Speaker 1 (07:20):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (07:21):
Did he, as you could tell, express gratification when you
had those that pair of underwear are yeah? How so
did your recomization when stand when you were talking on

(07:44):
the phone with him and he insisted that you tried
on these boys underwear? It didn't fit you cause you're
not a little boy. Did he express gratification when you
had them on your back?

Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (08:02):
How so he said that's hot not being offered for
the trips matters. Yes, will state he said that's hot.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
Did he explain why that was hot?

Speaker 1 (08:20):
No? I didn't ask him.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
How did you feel wearing these boys underwear?

Speaker 1 (08:28):
Well? Not hot? I felt kind of silly.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Did the conversation continue at that point in time?

Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, for a little bit it did.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
Was it sexual in nature? Yes, somewhat were Did he
express an intention to use these underwear or have you
wear these underwear during a future sexual interaction?

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (09:06):
How did you feel about that?

Speaker 1 (09:09):
I was a little confused, but I was trying to
be open minded.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Trying to what this sexual interaction that was discussed on
the phone regarding you wearing the boys underwear? Did that
interaction ever take place?

Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (09:30):
And how much when did that take place? As best
you can recall.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Throughout our relationship, mostly after we broke up.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
Do you remember the first time that this took place?
How much later was it from Valentine's state that these
underwear were used as it used in your sexual encounters
with him?

Speaker 1 (09:58):
It was several months time I kept conveniently forgetting to
bring them when I went to his house. It was
after I moved to.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
Masa, okay, and before we get to the time period
we moved to Mesa. I want to focus on this
time period. Had at this time period in February two
thousand and seven, you have not had penile vaginal intercourse

(10:28):
with mister Alexander.

Speaker 6 (10:29):
Is that right?

Speaker 1 (10:30):
That's right? Okay.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
As it relates to mister Alexander's temper, had you seen well,
had he been violent with you before February of two
thousand and seven? No, had you seen instances of his

(10:54):
temper prior to February of two thousand and seven, Yes,
describe for us if you could, one of those instances
that was powerful to you.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
Well, it was over the phone. I guess I heard
it rather than saw it. But he was.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
This day over the phone. Do you remember when this
conversation was other than prior to February two thousand and seven,
It would have.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Been around the same time, just before Valentine's Day.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Okay, So you're speaking with mister Alexander just before Valentine's
Day two thousand and seven, and since you're on the phone,
you're hearing it. You're hearing examples of temper, not seeing
them right. Yes, is he yelling at you?

Speaker 1 (11:52):
He's yelling on the phone, but not angry at me?

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Okay, why was that impactful on?

Speaker 1 (12:00):
Well, he was very apologetic about it. Afterward, he seemed
a little ashamed.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
She was asked why it affected her, not what he
did afterwards. How did an effect?

Speaker 1 (12:13):
It just made me realize that he still had a temper.
It was something he had discussed in the past, that
he used to have more in his teens, and that
he had mastered it and had control over it.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
So, in addition to this conversation where you heard instances
of temper prior to February two thousand and seven, did
you see physically see an instances of his temper prior
to February two thousand and seven. No. In at this

(12:52):
we just talked about how in February two thousand and
seven you had not had sexual intercourse with mister Alexander
penile vagil intercourse, but you did eventually, right, Yes, Do
you remember what point in time that first encounter happened?

Speaker 1 (13:16):
It was in the spring two thousand and seven. I
think it was in May.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
Where were you when this first happened.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
I was in his.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
Bed, in his bed where.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
In his bedroom in his house in Mason, Okay?

Speaker 2 (13:38):
Tell us what happened?

Speaker 1 (13:42):
We fell asleep and I woke up and he was
on top of me, and he had already penetrated and
started having sex with me.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
It's back up a step. That night you said you
were asleep that night before you fell asleep, did you
engage in sexual activity with mister Alexander?

Speaker 1 (14:12):
No?

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Was he seeking sexual activity that that night before you
fell asleep.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
No, we had prayed about our actions and tried to
be more and you'd try to be more like in
line with the love of chastity, just be less physical.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
So that night you and Travis pray. Was there any
particular about not violating the law of chastity?

Speaker 1 (14:41):
Right, Yes, but we didn't pray that night. We'd prayed
prior to that night recently.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
Okay, what motivated that prayer that preceded this sexual intercourse?
Was there one particular instance that that motivated such a
such a prayer.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
I would hear things occasionally in church that weren't that
didn't sound like they were in line with how Travis
explained it to me, So I asked him one time,
and as I understood it after we talked, that those
standards are in place to prevent people from going all
the way so his songs were not going all the way.
It's okay if we sort of tread in the great

(15:25):
area zones. We don't go all the way, okay.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
And when you say all the way, that means peni
vagel intercourse.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
Yes, okay.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
Now I want to make sure we're clear here because
I got a little confusing that night before he fell
asleep and woke up with him inside you. No sexual
activity took place, not prior to that, okay. And were

(15:59):
you you clothed when you went to sleep.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yes, I was in pajamas.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
And what you told us was you woke up with
him inside you. Had he talked about having penile vagual
intercourse with you before this event? No, is it something
that you desired?

Speaker 1 (16:24):
Maybe not on a conscious level. It wasn't anything I
was actively seeking or trying to abstain from.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
It, Okay, Because at this point in time, your mindset
was that you both wanted to comport with the vali chastity,
at least as to what your understanding of it was.
Is that right.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
Somewhat? Yes, I wanted to comport with the law of
chastity because I believed that our relationship would be blessed
if we did that.

Speaker 2 (16:56):
When you say you woke up with him inside you, Uh,
do you recall were you dressed.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
I wore the cotton shorts to sleep and they were
gone and my shirt was pulled up pretty high.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
Okay, when you came to what was happening when you
woke up? What was happening he.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
Was in the act, in the act, and what.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
Vaginal Second, when you woke up, how did you react?

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Well, it took me a second to orient myself and
I realized it was Travis. So I didn't feel unsafe
or anything. My first thought was, uh oh, because it
wasn't the act itself that I was worried about, but
how it would affect our relationship or the with the
spiritual consequences of it.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
Did you give consideration to the fact that he was
having sex with you when you didn't want him to?
She just said she wasn't seeking it, regrace the question,
did you want him to penetrate your vagina with his
penis while you were sleeping?

Speaker 1 (18:15):
It's nothing I had thought about.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
Okay, So when you woke up and you found him
penetrating your vagina with this penis, your concern was primarily
devout chastity prior to the law of chastity. Excuse me,
the consequences, the consequences. Did you give thought to the

(18:37):
idea that this man was having sex with you while
you were not conscious?

Speaker 1 (18:42):
No? I didn't give that to that idea. I felt
kind of responsible.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
How did you feel?

Speaker 1 (18:49):
I felt like I was partially responsible because I went
to sleep next to him. I was wearing cute shorts,
little T shirt, So I mean we might have fallen
asleep cut I don't remember, but I just felt like
being in his bed, you know, sleeping there, that it
wasn't entirely his fault, like maybe it.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
Was invited, Okay, invited just by you being there, right, Yes, okay.
When you woke up, did you tell him to stop?

Speaker 1 (19:22):
I don't think I said to stop.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
What do you recall happening after you woke up?

Speaker 1 (19:29):
I said his name, and I remember he was on
top of me and behind me. I was on my
stomach and he was kind of heavy, so I started
to squirre him a little bit to get out from
underneath them, and I think, well, he began to quicken

(19:49):
his pace, and finally I kind of I don't know
if he pushed him on the memoriscooted out from under him,
and he rolled over and pulled me on top of him,
and then started pushing my head and my shoulders under
the covers.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
He was pushing your head and shoulders under the covers
for what purpose?

Speaker 1 (20:08):
Well, I presumed oral sex.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
Did he ask for oral sex? Did he verbally say oh,
anything to that effect?

Speaker 1 (20:15):
No, no words were spoken.

Speaker 2 (20:18):
Did you perform oral sex upon him afterwards?

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Yes? Why, we had already been intimate before, so it
wasn't anything new on that level at least. And well,
you know, he's turned on and I just wanted to,
I guess, to finish it.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
What was that?

Speaker 1 (20:43):
I guess I just wanted to follow through with you know.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
Follow through with where he started when you were asleep.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yes, what his aim was, I guess, What's that? I
just wanted to let him finish.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
Why was that important to you?

Speaker 1 (21:02):
He had complained in the past about he complained about
blue balls and how painful it was if he has
a sustained direction and doesn't ejaculate, that's my understanding of
it anyway.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Okay, but I have to ask Jodie, this man is
had sex with you while you're asleep or you certainly
weren't in a position to say yes or no. Why
would you care about his physical condition?

Speaker 1 (21:40):
At that point, I knew that I loved him and
I cared about him, so it felt kind of natural,
even if it was frustrating.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
Okay, after this sexual intercourse and this activity took play,
did you ever confront him about what he had done?

Speaker 1 (22:00):
No? We actually never talked about it.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
Why not, Well, he.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Never brought it up, and I guess I just didn't
have the moral courage to bring it up and say, hey,
what happened kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (22:18):
Why not simply pack your bags, hopping your car and
drive back to Palm Desert.

Speaker 1 (22:27):
Because I enjoyed spending time with him. I wouldn't have
done that.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
Because that would have meant the end of the relationship.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
Not necessarily, maybe not the end of the relationship. But
I just stayed the rest of the weekend that was
planned for me to be there.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
And you said, at this point in time, April two
thousand and seven, you were in love with him. Is
that what you're telling us?

Speaker 1 (22:51):
Yeah, that incident occurred in May. I think in April
was when I knew that I was in love with him.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
Prior to this incident. Had you told Travis that you
loved him? No, you said after this incident, you spent
the rest of the weekend with him. Is that accurate?

Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (23:18):
And was this at his home in Masa?

Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (23:24):
And you were you would have been boyfriend and girlfriend
at this time as well?

Speaker 1 (23:28):
Right? Yes?

Speaker 7 (23:29):
Correct?

Speaker 2 (23:34):
When you well, let me ask you this. What did
you do the rest of the weekend? You stay home,
you go out.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
I don't recall the specifics of that weekend, but we
would have gone to church. I believe that was the
first time I went over to his friend's house. He
went to his friend's house every Sunday for dinner, so
I went with him that time, just general things hanging out.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
Okay. And when you went to this friend's house, is
this the incident we discussed last week where he didn't
introduce you as his girlfriend that sort of thing. Is
that right?

Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yes, at his friend's house, he didn't he introduced me.
I was in their home, but not as his girlfriend.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
Okay. When you went out in public in the Masa
area or around his home. When you were out in public,
were you guys holding hands? Were you kissing? You have
your arm around each other? Was any of that physical
affection apparent.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
No, not in Masa, okay.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
And I don't mean it's just me and Masa specifically,
the whole valley. Just ser clear, the whole valley, anything else,
anything you did while you were in public? Was there
physical displays of affection that might lead someone to believe
your boyfriend or girlfriend?

Speaker 1 (25:02):
There were when we were in other geographic locations.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
What do you mean away from Mesa?

Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah, like Disneyland.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
Or Okay, you went to Disneyland that weekend.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
I don't think we were in Arizona when all this occurred.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
So I just want to talk about this weekend. Oh okay,
so when you're in the Mesa area over the weekend.
Just to clarify, there's no physical displays of affection in public? Right? No,
are Travis? Does Travis have roommates at this point in

(25:43):
time in April or May of o seven?

Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (25:46):
Okay? And are you spending the night in his room
or are you sleeping elsewhere?

Speaker 1 (25:55):
I'm staying in his room.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
Okay. Now we talked about out the lack of physical
affection displayed in public. We already heard about one incident.
Were there physical displays of affection? Once Travis locked his
bedroom door. Yes, what happened the rest of the weekend?
Was there more penile vaginal intercourse? No?

Speaker 1 (26:17):
That was the only time at that point.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
What other actions took place over that weekend?

Speaker 1 (26:29):
I don't recall specifically that weekend. I just remember it
from that incident. That was one that I won't forget.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
Well, let me ask you this about all the other
sexual interactions that took place over the weekend. Were you awake?

Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (26:48):
Were you on those occasions a willing participant in the
sexual activity?

Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Now, from what you told us early around May of
two thousand and seven, it's about the time that you
moved out of your home in Palm Desert? Is that
right April or May?

Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah? I think it would have been sometime mid May.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
And where do you move after you moved out of
your home in Palm Desert?

Speaker 1 (27:25):
I moved to Big Surf, back to Bigxer, California.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
Okay. And what was in bigsur California?

Speaker 1 (27:34):
I had a job back at Ventana. Again, the position
was open for me and stack housing, so the rent
was free and it was just a way for me
to get.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
Back on my feet, back on your feet financially. Yes, Now,
from what we heard earlier. Bentana is the place where
you met mister Brewer. Is that correct?

Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Okay? Was mister Brewer working there that summer?

Speaker 1 (28:07):
No, he was on the peninsula, honorary Peninsula.

Speaker 5 (28:09):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (28:11):
You also told us about last time that you worked there.
You were dating Matt McCartney or your friends. Excuse me,
you were sharing a.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
Tent, right, Yes, we were freshly broken up.

Speaker 2 (28:28):
Was mister McCartney. Was he working at Ventana this summer
of O seven with you again?

Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yes? He was working there.

Speaker 4 (28:36):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (28:40):
Did you share housing again?

Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yes? We did?

Speaker 2 (28:46):
And was that this ten again or did you actually
get other accommodations?

Speaker 1 (28:52):
No, we had better accommodations. We were in the Red House,
which is right on Highway one. It's the storic house
that they let employers employees stay there, So we were
in that house with other roommates.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
And if I if we understood you correctly, this would
have been about a year after you broke up with
with Matt.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
Right, No, Matt and I broke up in two thousand
and one.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
Okay, two thousand and one, I'm sorry. Do you see
several years since you broke up with Matt?

Speaker 1 (29:21):
Dad, Yes, okay, yes, several.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
And you were were y y? You said you lived together.
Were you roommates? Were you romantically involved?

Speaker 5 (29:33):
No?

Speaker 1 (29:34):
We were more like brother and sister by this point.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Okay, So you were still close friends several years later, right, yes, okay,
and not not in any kind of sexual relationship.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
No, I'm none.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
Did Travis know that you were roommates with Matt, yes,
to your understanding. Was he jealous or upset about that situation?

Speaker 1 (30:01):
Surprisingly, no, he didn't mind that one.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
You say that one. Were there other instances of jealousy
around this around this time period?

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yes, there were?

Speaker 2 (30:20):
Describe those for us.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
There was one incident where I was going to drive
to southern California and meet Travis. I think we're gonna
meet at the airport or for Disneyland. I don't remember
which trip this was, but it was while I lived
in Bigsur and all the water on the property at
Montana had been shut off, and I wanted to take
a shower before I hit the road, so I called

(30:45):
a friend who lived nearby and I used a shower.
He said he was in Monterey, but his house is open,
and he gave me directions in the gate code. So
I could drive up to through the mountains to go
to his house, shower and then hit the road. And
when I told Travis, he flipped out on.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
Me for that. Well, you say flipped out? Was he
yelling at you? Yes? And you say jealousy? Was he,
to your understanding, angry because you thought that this was
something sexual in nature?

Speaker 1 (31:23):
He was worried that it would lead to something sexual,
or that I could be at risk because I'd gone.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
To somebody's house to shower, at risk of what.

Speaker 1 (31:36):
He didn't believe that the guy was in Monterey. He
thought he could drive back, something could happen. He kind
of made me feel vain for wanting to shower before
I got on the road, not that I could have
showered later.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
Okay, Now this jealousy you're talking about, was this expressed
when you arrived You were supposed to meet my Droulexander
in southern California? Right?

Speaker 1 (32:02):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (32:04):
Was this something that was displayed before you got there
or when you arrived, or perhaps both.

Speaker 1 (32:11):
Over the phone on the way there.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
And do you recall, I know you said you don't
know which trip it was. Do you recall how much
how long it took you to get to the place
where you were going to meet miss Alexander.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
I left in the late morning and arrived shortly before sunset.
I don't remember, maybe six seven hours.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
Okay, So several hours later when you get there is
this jealousy about the shower. Is that still an issue?

Speaker 1 (32:44):
No? Not At this point he was with Josh Ward,
so he wasn't really displaying that.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
Was it brought up at any point in time later
during this trip.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
It's something you didn't really let me live down for
a while, but it didn't lead to any major fights.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
Now, this trip to southern California, you say you don't
recall where it was. Is that accurate where you went?

Speaker 6 (33:12):
I think we were flying to New York at that point,
and this is summer of two thousand and seven, right, Yes,
had you expressed I know you told us you hadn't
in May?

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Had you expressed to mister Alexander that you loved him?

Speaker 4 (33:33):
No?

Speaker 2 (33:36):
Had he expressed to you that he loved you?

Speaker 1 (33:42):
Well, we did way back before our relationship, but while
we were dating, it wasn't I love you, I love
you too kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Okay, Now you mentioned you were flying to New York.
Why were the two of you flying to New York.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
Well, there was more church history places that were significant
to the history of the church there, and I had
one a trip to Huntington Beach for some of my
production in the company. Prepaid legal, so put him on
my ticket as the extra person, and we decided to
use one of the flights to fly from Rochester to

(34:27):
l ex instead of just driving there, so that we
could actually get out to New York for half the
price and then have prepaid legal pay for a flight back.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Okay, just so we're clear as well. Then on this trip,
you said you flew into Rochester, New York.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
Is that right? Yes, we did. Wait, we flew into
Cleveland on the way there. Flew back from Rochester to Alex.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
Okay, let me just ask you this for clarification. Then,
was it just you and Travis on these on this
trip to New York? Yeah, And you said this was
to be another church history trip, right.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
Well, church history, and there were other travel goals that
we had also at that time.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
What do you mean by travel goals?

Speaker 1 (35:21):
In that same spring, Travis had discovered a book called
one Thousand Places to See Before You Die, and he
thought it would be a cool goal to have maybe
a lifetime goal to try to check off as many
places as he could, and I began to join him
in that pursuit. And so Niagara Falls is on the list.
So while we were out east, we saw Niagara Falls

(35:43):
and the Finger Lakes in upstate New York, and the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, Ohio.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
And you said, these a thousand places to see before
you die. And this trip was and also included church history,
so it had a dual what I guess since one yes,
there approaching that. Yeah, that's the areas I'd like to

(36:14):
show you in March, as he did four thirty five
and four thirty two. I'd like you to begin without
telling me about him, and just let us know if
you recognize either of those photographs. Yes, when I moved

(36:38):
to an exhibits four thirty two for thirty five.

Speaker 7 (36:44):
Mayor ord Or of the witness place you may with
regard to these photographs, Exhibit number four thirty five was
mister Alexander the person that took this photograph.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
I believe he took both of us, so.

Speaker 7 (36:59):
Exhibit four three two he also took those except four
thirty five.

Speaker 2 (37:03):
Is this the one from Niagara Falls.

Speaker 1 (37:05):
If it's got the water in the background, that right one.

Speaker 7 (37:08):
And except number four thirty two, it's got some trees
in the background.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
Was that the Sacred Grove in Palmyra, New York?

Speaker 2 (37:14):
I don't relink it's objections thirty two and four through
five argument this trip, I've been showing you what's been marked.
Uh exhibit four thirty five. There is that coming in
clear on your screen, Miss Areas. Yeah, this has taken

(37:35):
it based on what you said moments ago. This has
taken at Niagara Falls, right, yes, And this was part
of the trip we're talking about, Uh, church history and
a thousand places to see before he died.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
Right yes?

Speaker 2 (37:52):
In this photograph of the peers, Uh that you and
mister Alexander were physically affectionate, acting like a couple. For
lack of a better way of putting it, is that accurate?

Speaker 1 (38:07):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (38:08):
Was that the way it was throughout this entire trip.

Speaker 1 (38:14):
That trip it we acted that way, but it was
a pretense.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
What do you mean a pretense?

Speaker 1 (38:22):
I found out by that point that he was cheating
on me, and I just didn't wanna bring all the
drama cause our tickets were bought and paid for and
we couldn't refund him. I couldn't change his name on
the ticket. I didn't want there to be I didn't
want to be total hidden, to be totally miserable, even
though I was miserable.

Speaker 2 (38:37):
Okay, so this trip, before you went on this trip
to to Cleveland and Niagara Falls and and various other places,
you had discovered that mister Alexander cheated on you. Yes,
how did you discover that?

Speaker 1 (39:01):
We were in I think Sandy, Utah at his friend
Dave's house. We had just returned from Daniel's Summit, which
is a place up in the mountains near Park City,
and I had been getting my suspicions about things. He

(39:23):
was treating me a little differently, a little more distant, uh,
a lot more flirty with other women, and it just
made me uncomfortable. When I tried to talk to him
about it, he blew up and got very defensive, even
though I didn't accuse him of anything, so it was
kind of a red flag. He assured me he was
only dating me. I left it at that. We went

(39:44):
on our trip. There were a couple of things that
stuck out on the trip to at daniel Summit, but
I ignored it, and then we got back to Dave's
house and he was taking a nap one day and
he left his phone wedged between two cushions and the
couch in the living room and he was in another

(40:05):
bedroom sleeping, and I just I figured I didn't know
if he was being honest with me. I had a
feeling he wasn't, and I wanted to know if I
should continue in this relationship or if I should give
him benefit of a doubt. I've been cheating it on before,
so I thought, maybe it's just past emotional baggage. I'm looking,
I'm reading into things that aren't there. So I saw

(40:26):
his phone, and I debated whether or not I should
look at it, and I was kind of sitting there
and tapping my fingers, and finally I snatched it, and
I went into the bathroom and shut the door, and
I was clicking around on his phone. He had a
touch screen. It was a smartphone. I didn't really know
how to use it, but I found the text messages
and began.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
To read them, and without telling us what they said,
it was based on those text messages in mister Alexander's phone,
you believed he was not being faithful with you. Yes,
was there a particular person you believed that he was

(41:06):
dating after you saw these text messages?

Speaker 1 (41:10):
No, there weren't too many names. There were just a
lot of phone numbers, and it wouldn't have been a person.
It was several people, many different phone numbers.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
So this trip, when we see this photograph, you talk
about acting as a couple, but you're miserable. You say
you've done this because the trip is already planned and
you don't wanna cause any chaos or any problems. Is
that right?

Speaker 1 (41:34):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (41:35):
This trip with him in New York hel on was it?

Speaker 1 (41:43):
I think we flew out on June eighteenth or something
and got back. I wanna say like a week. I
don't recall exactly.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Okay, was there sexual interaction between you two on this trip?

Speaker 1 (41:59):
I think there was, but I don't recall specific.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
Why do you say you think.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
There there was because there usually was when when when
we traveled?

Speaker 2 (42:11):
Well, let me ask you did did you on these travels?
Did you share the same hotel room?

Speaker 1 (42:15):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Say bad, Yes weod love with travels in this photograph. Yes,
let me show you what's been marked? Does exhibit four
thirty two? Where was this taken.

Speaker 1 (42:29):
It's called the Sacred Grove and it's in Palmyra, New York.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Could you describe for us for those of us who
don't know what is the Sacred Grove?

Speaker 1 (42:42):
The Sacred Grove is an important place in the history
of the church because it was where Joseph Smith received
what's called the First vision, where he was in this
grove praying. I think it was in eighteen twenty or
somewhere around there, and he he wass uh, two heavenly

(43:05):
beings appeared before him, and it was the Father and
Jesus Christ.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
Okay, So, as a member of the more of a church,
you wanted to visit this place? Is that correct? Yes?
Would it be considered a romantic spot to you or
w for members of your church?

Speaker 1 (43:36):
I think I My understanding is that a lot of
church members get engaged when they go there, and Travis
had complained that was a cliche before going. So I
wasn't expecting any kind of romantic interaction.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
You mean you weren't expecting a proposal.

Speaker 1 (43:54):
Definitely not a proposal, not after reading in his phone.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
But as it relates to you seeing what you saw
on his phone prior to the trip, did Travis know
about this during this trip that I knew. Did he
know that he had been caught? No? I didn't tell
him so for seven days. Then on this trip, you

(44:25):
you grin and barracks, so to speak, s because you
don't wanna cause any kind of fight or any kind
of confrontation.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
During that week, right, yeah, M more or less kay.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
And I say specifically related to uh, his his being unfaithful.
You didn't bring that up the whole week. No, the
trip itself, was it then harmonious or were there fights? Anyway?

Speaker 1 (45:05):
We did have a fight in Ohio. It was just
a little I don't remember. It was an argument, and
he kept asking me throughout the trip, what's wrong? What's wrong?
I just kept saying nothing. I was trying to just
act like nothing. Everything was okay.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
What was the What was your plan in your mind?
Were you gonna just break up with him when you
got back to California? Did you have a plan?

Speaker 1 (45:30):
My initial plan when I found the phone or the
text messages in the phone, was to break up with him.
I didn't want to cause a lot of drama at
Dave's house, so I decided we would wait till we
got back to Mesa, and then we got to Mesa,
Travis was kind of domineering, so I didn't want to.
I was worried about confronting him. He got very upset
last time. I even hinted at it without even accusing

(45:51):
him of anything.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
So hang on a second, Jordy, before you get too
far down the road. You said, when you return to Masa,
weren't you still living at Big Surf at the.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
End of yeah week, I'm sorry, we flew back to
We flew to Lax that time. So then we had
the Huntington Beach thing, and then we had Disneyland one
more time, and then I was going to do it.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
Okay, So obviously you didn't have to be back at
your job at Big Surf for an extended period of time, right.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
Yeah, about a week. I think I took off.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
Okay, But you said you landed and you went to
Disneyland and that sort of thing. You didn't have a
job to go back to. I did, but you still
had some days off in La.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
Yes, we had four four nights, five days in Huntington Beach.

Speaker 2 (46:44):
Huntington Beach trip that was work related, is that right? Legal?

Speaker 1 (46:52):
Yeah, it was a reward related.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Was it strictly a vacation or was it also a meeting?

Speaker 1 (47:01):
It was mostly vacation, mostly leisure. There was like maybe
a few speeches given, but it wasn't centered on training
or or anything like that.

Speaker 2 (47:12):
Did you and mister Alexander share a hotel room when
you stayed at hunting to Beach?

Speaker 1 (47:19):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (47:21):
Was there sexual activity during that meeting a Hunting to
be I believe there was. I think the part that's
hard to understand, Jody, is this idea that you just
didn't end it?

Speaker 1 (47:37):
Did?

Speaker 2 (47:37):
I say, vouch you hard to understand. I would hate it,
your grace. Explain to us why after set, Why after
a trip to New York, your gritting and bearn you
get back to California. Why are you still willing to

(47:59):
put up with this?

Speaker 1 (48:02):
I think I was in denial at the time. I
knew it was going on, and I think it was
a convenient reason to deny it because we had this
vacation that was paid for. There was no refunding it.
If we had changed flights and things like that, it
would have cost even more fees.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
But I'm talking about when you got back to Huntington Beach.
You're back, You're back from New York. If there's no flights,
there's nothing.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
I mean, I couldn't imagine kicking him off the trip
and saying get out of my room. He was there,
and we had well, we had friends that we were
There's a lot of things to do in Huntington Beach.
There are shops on the sidewalks and restaurants, and there's
the beach itself, and there were pools and okay, hot tubs.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
It's a great place. And I'm sure both of you
wanted to be there, and Travis probably wanted to be there,
But that doesn't really get to my question. My question
is why aren't you done with him at that point
in time? Why don't you kick him out of your room.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
I didn't have a lot of self esteem at that time,
and I just I was kind of a doormat and
I didn't assert myself and I was in denial, and
I just I knew it had to happen. I wanted
to hurry up and get it over with because that
was going to be the hard part. I knew the
relationship couldn't continue like that. I was kind of waiting
for the right moment to tell him.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
And while you're waiting for the right moment. You're still
to your recollection, not specific days or time, but you're
still engaging in sexual activity with him while you're waiting
for this right moment.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
Right, yes, on occasion.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
Why was that okay with you?

Speaker 1 (49:50):
Well, sometimes when we did those things, it made me
feel loved depending on how he acted during the incident.

Speaker 2 (49:57):
During this sexual interaction, yeah, you felt when you were
enga What you seem to be telling us is that
when you were engaging in sexual behavior with mister Alexander,
you felt completely loved.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
But at times, at times.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
When you were not having sexual interactions with him, did
you also feel to use your words completely loved?

Speaker 7 (50:32):
Actually were the counsel's words, not the witnesses words you completely.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Loved used in exactly what she said.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
Any answers, Well, you repeated, I'm.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
Sorry, I'm gonna try. You told us earlier that, uh,
when you had these sexual interactions with mister Alexander, you
felt completely loved, right, yes, okay, And what I was
asking is, how about the time when these sexual interactions

(51:05):
weren't going on, did you feel that same sense of
being completely loved?

Speaker 1 (51:11):
There were some moments during that trip where we connected
it was actually more painful when we connected them when
we didn't connect.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
What do you mean by that?

Speaker 1 (51:24):
Because it was a reminder of how much I loved him,
And when we weren't connecting, it was easier to start
distancing myself from him, even though it became kind of
impossible when we were getting along. It was almost like
I could pretend that I never really saw any of
those things in his phone.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
At this point in time, had he told you he
loved to.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
Not since we had begun officially dating.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
Now, apart from Huntington Beach, did you spend did you
and mister Alexander go anywhere else before you returned to
Big Surf?

Speaker 1 (52:05):
Yes, our friend Jeff drove us to Disneyland, to Anaheim?

Speaker 2 (52:11):
Okay? And you said your friend drove you. But was
this did the three of you go to Disneyland or
was it just.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
You and Travis just Travis night you dropped us off?

Speaker 2 (52:22):
And this was while this was part of the Huntington
Beach trip? Is that?

Speaker 1 (52:27):
Yeah? This is all one same trip?

Speaker 2 (52:29):
Okay? And when you and mister Alexander wereked Disneyland, were
you holding hands? Were you acting like boyfriend and girlfriend?

Speaker 1 (52:41):
Somewhat? It was just kind of dull, like the park
didn't have the same magic as it did before because
of everything that was going on.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
What do you mean, everything that was going.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
On inside, like my inner turmoil with the knowledge that
I was, I guess cursed with sort of gets out.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
Did you get along okay at Disneyland or were there
any arguments?

Speaker 1 (53:05):
I remember it's getting along pretty well.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
So now this trip to Hunting the Beach comes to
an end a few days later, I would assume right
after you go to Disneyland.

Speaker 1 (53:20):
Yes, after Disneyland, I don't remember where I stayed, but
we hung out on Riverside for a while.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
Okay. Eventually there was going to come a point in time,
or sounds like there came a point in time when
you and Travis were going to part a company, right, Yes,
And from what he had told us before, this seemingly
was going to be the moment in time when you
told him you're done right?

Speaker 1 (53:51):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (53:52):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Where do you recall where you were when the two
of you were to part ways?

Speaker 1 (54:00):
Well, I'd planned to drop the bomb at in Riverside
when I was dropping him off at his grandmother's house,
and I couldn't get up the courage to tell him.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
Okay, so you say you're at his grandma's house and Riverside,
you're dropping him off, and you don't get you don't
have the courage to tell him, Yes, are you leaving
Riverside that day? Or do you stay with mister Alexander
at Riverside.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
I'm leaving town and driving back to Big Sir.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
Now, I believe earlier he told us that you had
met his grandmother three times? Is that right?

Speaker 1 (54:44):
I think I did meet her three times, but I
don't remember at that point if that was the second
or third time.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
So you're driving back from Riverside to Big Sir, and
you never have this confrontation you've been planning to have
for about a week, right, Yeah, more like two two weeks? Okay,
so what's the what's the plan? Then, as you're driving
back to vix or call him and break up, you

(55:12):
can write a letter. What's what's the plan?

Speaker 1 (55:14):
I was really mad at myself. I wanted I wanted
to do it in person, and now I didn't know
when I was coming back to Arizona or southern California
when I would see him again physically. So at that
point I realized it would have to be on the phone.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
Did you ever then have the have the talk that
you were dreading for so long? Yes, and that was
over the phone. Yes, and tell us what you told him?

Speaker 1 (55:51):
Well, I said, there's some things I want to talk
to you about, and I told him that his phone
has been the source of a and everything came out.
I told him what happened in Utah, and I apologized.
I felt really bad for violating his privacy, even though
I felt justified because of what I found out. And

(56:15):
he was apologetic.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
Say, he was apologetic. Did you end up breaking up
with him after this conversation?

Speaker 1 (56:31):
The conversation evolved. His apology was weak, I thought, and
I said, in an indirect way, I said, I don't
think either of us is ready to be in the
kind of relationship that we thought we were having.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
Was that then, when you said that, was that really
or this conversation? Was that really the end of yourself
and Travis as a as a couple, as an official
couple yet and so you essentially broke up that day
over the fall?

Speaker 1 (57:08):
Yes, that was our end.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
Date, you could say, Okay, and when was that? Do
you remember the exact date? Or yes?

Speaker 1 (57:17):
I remember the date. It was June twenty.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
Nine of two thousand and seven, two thousand and seven. Now,
after you have this breakup on June twenty ninth, two
thousand and seven, is that the last you hear from
Travis Alexander?

Speaker 5 (57:35):
No?

Speaker 2 (57:38):
How long was it in terms of days? Maybe hours?
If so? How long was it before you spoke with
mister Alexander again?

Speaker 1 (57:50):
He called me the next morning. He was still in
southern California.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
And just we're clear. You were in Bixer, right.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
I was in Bixer.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
And what was the subject matter of that conversation?

Speaker 1 (58:09):
Well, I don't remember how it started. I think he
was at his friend's house.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
Subject about the conversations not his subjection runner Overworld. Do
you state your question? You say, Hey called you the
next day? Do you know where he was calling you from?

Speaker 1 (58:31):
I understood that he was at his friend's house, Christens
Guy's house in southern California, Okay?

Speaker 2 (58:39):
And was he wanting to get together with you? Was
he wanting to continue the conversation? Tell us the subject
matter of the conversation.

Speaker 1 (58:47):
At first it was about what he was doing there,
which that's why I figured he was there. And then
we didn't continue the conversation from from before. It was
a lot less dramatic, and I don't know what room
he had hold himself up in, but he did. The

(59:08):
conversation began to turn sexual, and.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
What do you mean sexual?

Speaker 1 (59:16):
Well, he began to just say things like he's been
horny lately and it's.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
Not being offered for the truth of the matters of
judge approach. You said that the conversation was sexual in
nature this day after you broke up, right, Yes, when

(59:42):
you say sexual in nature, that can mean a lot
of things. So I want to clarify that a little bit.
Was he talking about the two of you engaging in
sexual behavior?

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (59:59):
Did he talk about specific acts that he wanted to
engage in with you?

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
I don't remember specifically. I just remember homosexual the things
he was saying, And.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
You remember it related to the two of you interacting
right somewhat.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
I was on the phone, but I was out in
the gravel driveway at the Red House at Manana.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
You had just broken up with him the night before.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
Right the afternoon before the afternoon.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Did you find it strange that the morning after your
breakup or the morning is the morning after your breakup?
This man's on the phone with you trying to have
dirty talk.

Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
I felt. I felt it was strange, but also.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
It had.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
I really had thow self esteem at this time. It
made me feel better. Actually, what do you mean describe
that for us?

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
You mean better?

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Well, he had me promises to change. He said, those
women didn't mean anything. That kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
Yes, not being offered for all times hold all. So
so he told you those women didn't matter, and you did.
Is that? Well what you saying? Why you felt good
about it?

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
Yes? He made he made he said it. Uh h,
I swear I'll change, Just give me a chance. So
this was my I don't know. I I still loved him,
and so I thought that he was serious about changing,
and so I continued to be intimate with him.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
Well let's let's not get too past the phone call
right now and say he continued to the intimate with him?
Was there? Did you reciprocate the sexual tone of the
conversation that you had within the day after you broke up.

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
I first didn't really know what to say because he
had It's not his objection, your honor, I'm gonna sustain
the objection.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
Ask another question, were you at the day after you
broke up with him? Was it your hope?

Speaker 6 (01:02:29):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
I hoped Travis calls me and talks dirty to me.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
No, I wasn't thinking that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
When he did started s talking dirty to you? Why
not hang up the phone?

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
I wouldn't have hung up on him. He wasn't being
mean or anything.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
What's that?

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
He wasn't being mean or anything.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
But you just found out he was cheating and you
broke up with him. Why why even talk to the guy, Jodie.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
He promised to change and I still loved him.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
Let me back up, Let me back up again, and
you might have already answered my question with what you
just said. But why did you pick up the phone
to begin with?

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
I don't know. I guess it was habit and his
ring tone came through his little pictures on the screen.
I wasn't going to ignore the call.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
So you have this conversation. He tells you he's going
to change, and from what you told us, sound like
you said you you started feeling good about yourself based
on this conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
Yeah, it made me feel good that he still desired
me and claimed that he didn't really care about anybody else,
just me, So I believed him.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
What sort of things did he say that made you
feel this way? Conductionjection? Did he tell you?

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
I honestly don't remember specifics. He just was saying very
nice things to me, and they were erotic, and they
were they made me feel sexy, they made me feel attractive.
So I stayed on the phone with him.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
Now, if we understand correctly, you're in Riverside or excuse me,
he's in Riverside here in Big sur when this phone conversation,
same place to your understanding.

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
Right, I think he was in Temecula, but somewhere in
southern California. He was still in southern California.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Okay, after this conversation, what is the next contact you
have with him? Are you talking on the phone? Do
you see each other in person?

Speaker 1 (01:04:40):
He begins, we pick up the routine again, and when
he calls me at night and just calls me, begin
getting very late, almost to four in the morning. So
I just went to sleep and then waited for him
to call.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
So after a breakup, are you back together again? He said,
it's the same old routine. Are you back together again? Okay,
we're a boyfriend or girlfriend again.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
We are talking about trying it again. But we are
not back together again.

Speaker 2 (01:05:10):
When he's wooing you back on this conversation. Over the
course of these weeks, has he been telling you that
he loves you?

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
Does he ever talk about after this breakup? Does he
talk about a future with you, marriage, children, things of
that nature.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
Yes, he still talked about that frequently, more in a
joking manner, But it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
Came up a lot at this point in time after
this breakup and these calls. Are you still seeing the
potential of a future with mister Alexander in that regard?

Speaker 1 (01:05:44):
Yes, I believe you had the potential to change.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
And you hoped he would, right, so you talk about
the same overroutine. And these calls are getting later? What
time are we talking? These calls are happening.

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
Now, definitely after midnight, two, three, four am, depending on
the night.

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
And are these calls also sexual in nature?

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
No, they're more just loving, actually, And what.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
Do you mean by loving? Describe what you mean by that?

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
He was acting more like the same guy I fell
in love with, and he was just being very sweet
and wanted to know about my day, told me funny
things about his day, And when he talked about the future,
he kept saying we or us things.

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
Like that, and nothing sexual in these calls.

Speaker 1 (01:06:47):
No, I don't think.

Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
How long then until you were back on the hook,
so to speak, hook line and sinker back in love
with Charvis? Did you ever fall off that hug?

Speaker 5 (01:07:01):
Not?

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
At during that time I didn't. I mean further down
the road, I did, But at this point I was
still in love with him.

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
Okay, And this is about when and when in two
thousand and seven June or July.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
We're into early July right now.

Speaker 2 (01:07:19):
How long? When was your job at Big Ser done
for the season?

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
Well, it's it could have gone on the entire year.
That season was very slow that summer. I picked up
another job at the Big Sur Bakery to supplement my income,
and business was just slow all over in Bixer that season.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
So you say you could have stayed on uh year round?
Did you decide to?

Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
Why not? Is it the financial reasons or were there others?

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
Financially it would have made more sense to stay there,
but there was a another more compelling reason to the move.

Speaker 4 (01:08:05):
Time, ladies and gentlemen, please be back to the jury
room by one to five. Please remember the ammunition you
are excused jury is not present, miss Arias. Earlier today

(01:08:26):
and last week, a number of times there's been an
objection that your answers were non responsive. I'm going to
ask that you listen very carefully to the questions and
answer the question you are being asked. Yes, let's bring
in the jury.

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
Please be seated.

Speaker 4 (01:08:43):
The record will show the presence of the jury, the defendant,
and all council. Mister Nurman, you may continue with direct examination.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
Thank you are, miss Arias. Before we broke for lunch,
we were talking about how you were considering whether or
not to move or stay Big sir, or move on.

(01:09:12):
And when you started talking about excuse me, when you
started talking about moving on, you said there was a
compelling reason to move on. What was that compelling music?

Speaker 1 (01:09:27):
Do you mean move on or move geographically?

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
Well, move on, move on and leave Bixer.

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
I'll move on geographically.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
Well.

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
They were already plans, Travis Ny were making plans for
me to move to Mesa. He was very upset when
I moved to Big sur He wanted me to either
go to Mesa or stay in southern California, but not
move so far. So I had already made my commitments
in Big ser I decided to fulfill those they were
expecting me, and so the season wasn't panning out to

(01:09:55):
what it was. So I gave my notice there and
day was going to be sometime in June or July,
I don't remember when. And I was making plans to
move to Mesa, and then I discovered that he was
cheating on me, so plans kind of halted. I was
going to move in with my friend Rachel, and I

(01:10:18):
kind of told her that, you know, what was up.
I didn't want to throw Travis under the bus, so
I didn't didn't go into a lot of detail, but
I said that things weren't really working out with him,
and you know, things are working out up here either,
and she was encouraging me to come to Mesa anyway,
kind of make it my Mesa, don't worry about Travis.
And then Travis was also.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
Let's just let's just stop at a minute and clarify.
You had planned to move to Mays so before you
went to Big Sir in this in the.

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
Summer, right, yes, in the spring, we began.

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):
To talk about that, and once you found out he
was cheating on you, you then made the decision to
go to Big Sir, Is that right?

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
No, I moved to Big Sur prior.

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
To that, okay, And then you were planning on staying
at Big Sir until you had this conversation with him
where he started being loving towards you. Is that right?

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
The original plan was to stay in Big Sir, fulfill
the commitments I made, and then moved to Mesa.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Okay? And what were the commitments in terms of time?

Speaker 1 (01:11:18):
In terms of time about two months two and a
half months.

Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
Okay, So you fulfilled your commitment. Why did you decide then,
getting to my point, why did you decide then to
that moving to Maysa would be a good idea considering
what had happened prior.

Speaker 1 (01:11:37):
Well, I was on the fence about it. I was
going to move to Montclair. There was another woman that
I worked with at the Big Sur bakery that was
moving there, and that's closer. That's in southern California. It's
close to where I used to live. It's within an
hour's drive a Palm Desert. So there were two choices,
and I decided to go to Mesa. Travis painted a

(01:11:58):
nice picture of all the benefits of moving to Mesa.
He said, it's a strong Mormon community. There are a
lot of church members. There are always other lds, single
women looking for roommates. He said, I can store all
of my things at his house. He said, I could
sock away more money, just benefits, benefits, benefits.

Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
To you or benefits to him, to us both.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
Well, he was painting the benefits that I would read
if I moved there.

Speaker 2 (01:12:30):
Did you believe that he was also seeking benefits?

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
Of course, yeah, he said we could hang out more
and figure things out.

Speaker 2 (01:12:39):
Hang out and figure things out. Did hanging out involve
sexual activity?

Speaker 1 (01:12:48):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:12:50):
When you moved to Masa, how far from Travis were.

Speaker 1 (01:12:56):
You, I don't know mileage, and I don't know with
you know Mesa. But Travis lived over by Signal Butte
and Elliott, and I lived over by Greenfield and Broadway.

Speaker 2 (01:13:09):
Well, do you have any idea how long it took
you to drive to Travis's house?

Speaker 1 (01:13:14):
Well, depending on traffic, fifteen minutes, okay, maybe twenty, so.

Speaker 2 (01:13:20):
You live about fifteen minutes away. We heard other witnesses
testify tell us about what Award was where he lived.
Was that in the same word as mister Alexander? No,
was that an issue for him to your understanding, it

(01:13:43):
became an issue? Why to your understanding? Was that a concern?

Speaker 1 (01:13:49):
Well, as soon as I moved in with Rachel about
I'd say within a week and a half, she approached
me and informed me.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
That she and Lester, well, let's do it this way.
Then you move You imagined a person named Rachel. Is
that who you moved in with originally?

Speaker 1 (01:14:07):
Yes? And her boyfriend? Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
And how long did you live with Rachel and her boyfriend?

Speaker 1 (01:14:14):
About a week and a half and I'm sorry, like
two and a half weeks okay.

Speaker 2 (01:14:20):
And after this two and a half week period, Uh,
it's time for you to move on for their personal reasons.
Is that what you're telling us?

Speaker 1 (01:14:29):
Yes, they looped okay.

Speaker 2 (01:14:32):
So they got married and it was time for you
to find a.

Speaker 1 (01:14:36):
New place to live, right, Yes, okay, there were newly wents.

Speaker 2 (01:14:40):
And you said the issue of war or war boundaries
or what wars you're going to be in? Uh became
an issue? Could you explain that to us?

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):
Yes, it became a narrative that I move out as
quickly as possible. They were going to have another civil
wedding ceremony after eloping in Vegas, So what I did
was I went to. I think it was an institute center,
which is a a place where young single adults in

(01:15:15):
the church can go for scripture study and things like that.
There was a bulletin up there with different places for rent,
so I wrote down a few phone numbers that were
within my price range. I called a girl I think
she lived in Gilbert. She said that that listing was
old and no longer available, but she directed me to
ldshousing dot net and said that I could find more

(01:15:38):
listings there. So I went there and I found a
few within my price range. I called them all to
return my call. One was a girl named Brenda and
she lived in Gilbert. She had a brand new house.
She said she was looking for a roommate. She had
not moved into the house yet because she was in
the process of buying it and the mortgage lender hadn't

(01:15:59):
funded it, and so she didn't have her keys yet.
But we went and buy the house together. Peeked in
the windows, you know. She showed me around the property.
It was brand new, it had never been lived in.
It was in a really great war, she said. Everyone
in the ward is really awesome. So I was excited
about that, but then the days kept going on and
she wasn't getting her keys, and Rachel and her new

(01:16:20):
husband were like, uh, you know, they kind of wanted
their own space. So I went to LDS housing dot
net again. I called back the same number as before,
not Brenda's, but the other one, and she called me
back and said that there was a room available for rent.
So I went and checked it out. The house was nice,

(01:16:40):
it was in a great neighborhood, It was available immediately,
it was within my price range, and I asked her
which ward it was in. She told me it was
in the university's sixth ward, which was not the ward
that Travis was in at the time.

Speaker 2 (01:16:53):
Why did you ask her what ward it was it?

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
I didn't want to land that. I didn't want to
land in the same ward as Travis.

Speaker 5 (01:17:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:01):
Well, one, I figured he didn't treat me very well
at church when I was his girlfriend. He ignored me,
he didn't introduce me, he flirted with other women. So
I figured if he was capable of treating me that
way as his girlfriend, who knew what other kinds of
humiliating behaviors he was capable of now that we were ex's.
I didn't want to show up at his word like that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:23):
Okay, And to your understanding, did he not want you
in his ward as well?

Speaker 1 (01:17:31):
We had talked about it. Yes, he said, now that
we're not together.

Speaker 2 (01:17:36):
Or not, she knows if you wanted to hurt or
to your understanding, did mister Alixander want to make sure
that you were in a different ward.

Speaker 1 (01:17:48):
I don't know if you went that far. You just well,
you just discussed going to different words.

Speaker 2 (01:17:53):
Oh, now this home that you moved to. Uh, after
you went through your house you search after you left
Rachel's home. In terms of let's just use the marker
of time, how far away was this from Travis's house?

Speaker 1 (01:18:10):
Are you talking about Rachel's house or the new house?

Speaker 2 (01:18:12):
The new house?

Speaker 1 (01:18:13):
It was a lot closer. I didn't know at first.
I was still using my tsure.

Speaker 2 (01:18:19):
You say a lot closer. How how long a drive
was it to Travis's house from where you wound up
after you left moved out of Rachel's place.

Speaker 1 (01:18:29):
I would say ten minutes were less depending on the route.

Speaker 2 (01:18:34):
Okay, Now you mentioned that you and Travis and can
you give us a ballpark? In terms of the time
we're talking about here, month and year when you've moved
into this new place.

Speaker 1 (01:18:53):
Uh. Yes, I believe it was the middle of August
two thousand and seven.

Speaker 2 (01:19:01):
And at this point in time, I know that you
had told us that you ended your relationship with mister Alexander,
at least from a formal standpoint or from a label standpoint.
You broke up his boyfriend and girlfriend. But he was
telling you all these loving things and you kind of

(01:19:22):
back in good graces. Anyway. Were you his girlfriend at
this time in August of two thousand and seven, No,
when you moved back to Mesia, regardless of where you lived,
was the sexual relationship still ongoing he was ongoing. Were

(01:19:45):
you acting as a couple in public?

Speaker 1 (01:19:48):
No, we were even more clandestine.

Speaker 2 (01:19:51):
More clandestine. Yes, And this clandestine sexual relationship. Where was this,
by and large happening at his out And how would
it generally work? Would you come over at a certain time?
How did that work?

Speaker 1 (01:20:11):
Typically this cycle began to develop where there would be
a fight and then we would make up and it
would turn sexual and then everything would be okay for
a little while.

Speaker 2 (01:20:19):
Now, the sexual relationship you were having in with us
having with mister Alexander in the summer of two thousand
and seven. Did this include oral sexual contact? Yes, anal sex.

Speaker 1 (01:20:37):
Eventually, but I'm trying to remember if we did that summer.
It was around that time, but I don't remember exactly when.

Speaker 2 (01:20:46):
And it didn't include penile vaginal intercourse eventually.

Speaker 1 (01:20:50):
It did one time actually that month.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):
Now, when you moved back to Mesa, did you get
your did you find a job?

Speaker 1 (01:21:02):
I did finally toward the end of August, and not
right away, but I did. And where were you working
at PF.

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
Chang And apart from PF Changs, did you have any
other sources of income?

Speaker 1 (01:21:17):
Yes? What was that Travis offered me? Offered to pay
me to clean his house.

Speaker 2 (01:21:25):
And was there a set upon hourly wage for that?

Speaker 1 (01:21:29):
Yes, he was going to pay me two hundred dollars
extra a month to come over twice a week. I
can't remember how many hours, but when you did the math,
that equals twelve fifty.

Speaker 2 (01:21:43):
An hour, okay, And you were also having a sexual
relationship with him at this time, right, yes, man pro Turner,
JORDI I wanna show you was the more art as
Exhibit three ninety five. Could you take a look at

(01:22:04):
that see if you recognize that, Yes, what is that?

Speaker 1 (01:22:09):
It's an email he sent me.

Speaker 2 (01:22:12):
Regarding what.

Speaker 1 (01:22:15):
This kind of a joke about my uniform for cleaning
his house?

Speaker 2 (01:22:20):
Your uniform? What for cleaning his house?

Speaker 1 (01:22:22):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:22:25):
What did he want you to wear?

Speaker 1 (01:22:28):
He wanted me to wear one of those French made outfits.

Speaker 2 (01:22:34):
And do you remember when he sent you to sea?

Speaker 1 (01:22:36):
Now it would have been sometime in early August.

Speaker 2 (01:22:42):
Moved sort of man exited three ninety Ah, excuse me
plus I three winy three year old.

Speaker 7 (01:22:49):
No objection to the photographic portion of the email, but
objection to the hearsay or the written comic.

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):
Okay, Jody, Let's back up a step. When mister Alexander
proposed this arrangement to you in August of seven, is
that accurate?

Speaker 1 (01:23:07):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:23:10):
Did you accept this arrangement?

Speaker 1 (01:23:14):
I hesitated, But when he said it's two hundred extra month,
I said yes because I needed money.

Speaker 2 (01:23:19):
Okay. And at the time you accepted this offer mister
Alexander made to you, were you still sexually active with him? Yes,
when you were cleaning the house working as his mate,

(01:23:46):
if you will, did he ever express the desire to
have sex with you while you were working for him occasionally?
And how did you feel about that. You're there to
clean your hand feet his house and he's having sex

(01:24:11):
with you.

Speaker 1 (01:24:13):
It didn't bother me. We were still intimate and he's
paying attention to me. He's being nice, he's focused on me,
making me feel attractive, So it wasn't unpleasant.

Speaker 2 (01:24:31):
Did he ever ask you to wear a particular uniform?

Speaker 1 (01:24:38):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:24:41):
How would you describe that uniform for us?

Speaker 1 (01:24:46):
The picture he sent me was of a woman, a
voluptuous woman with long blonde hair, a low cut French
made outfit. She had stockings and went up to her thighs.
Still let it. It was a black and white outfit
with a little white apron. I think she had her

(01:25:06):
foot up on something.

Speaker 2 (01:25:10):
Lee, I'm gonna show her you a picture from Exhibit
three ninety five or ever? Can that be published to
the jury. You just didn't object to it a few
minutes ago.

Speaker 4 (01:25:34):
Ladies and gentlemen, if you wish to stand in place,
we have about two minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:25:37):
And you're welcome to Dent. I'm going to ask that.

Speaker 4 (01:25:40):
You go back to the jury room, use your card
to let yourselves in. We will be back with you shortly.
I don't know what's happened. I'm going to go and
find out you get the record and show the presence
of the jury, the defendant and council. Ladies and gentlemen,
thank you for your patient. Exhibit three nine five point

(01:26:03):
z E. Rosiero one is admitted. Mister Nurma, you may.

Speaker 2 (01:26:06):
Continue joy before a break, we talked about a picture
he received in an email me if I may approach
rhyme right, uh, of a woman in a Frenchman uniform?
Do you recognize that as being that picture?

Speaker 1 (01:26:25):
Yes? Thank you?

Speaker 2 (01:26:29):
How who did start after when you received this email
from him? Was this before or after he began working
for him?

Speaker 1 (01:26:43):
It was after we made the agreement, but before I started.

Speaker 2 (01:26:47):
How did you feel in receiving this?

Speaker 1 (01:26:54):
I just kind of laughed. I think he meant it
as a joke.

Speaker 2 (01:26:57):
You felt like he meant it as a joke. Yes,
Did your feelings on that subject change when he was
having sex with you while you were supposedly working for him?

Speaker 1 (01:27:08):
Well? On the uniform note, But as far as the implication,
I mean I kind of knew that was implied sometimes.

Speaker 2 (01:27:19):
That that was kind of implied sometimes, meaning if he
was paandy to put in his house and you were
available to have sex with him. That was part of
the deal, especially rephrase. Did you believe when you were
working for him? Because you were working for him, he's

(01:27:43):
entitled to have sexual access to you.

Speaker 1 (01:27:50):
I wouldn't say that I needed money. We were already intimate.
Say that, sorry, Ask another question?

Speaker 2 (01:28:02):
Why did he not feel that way?

Speaker 1 (01:28:05):
I was already intimate with him and I had feelings
for him, So it wasn't it wa it didn't. I
didn't correlate the two. Usually, I s I stuck with
my duties there. It was generally during the day he worked. Also,
I didn't wanna distract him from that. Sometimes he would

(01:28:27):
come to me. He would bump into me suggestively and
say hell, excuse me, and then it would happen again,
and then it would lead to something. Sometimes he would
just come up and kiss me.

Speaker 2 (01:28:38):
Hope. How long did you clean his house? Work as
his maid?

Speaker 1 (01:28:47):
Almost the entire time that I lived in Mesa?

Speaker 2 (01:28:50):
Okay? Did he always pay you?

Speaker 1 (01:28:54):
He always paid me in one form or another.

Speaker 2 (01:28:58):
What do you mean by that?

Speaker 1 (01:29:00):
Sometimes? Well, it was usually cash, but sometimes well we
went on trips together, so sometimes we always split the
trips fifty to fifty. He kept meticulous track of the cost.
He could always figure it down to the dollar, who
owed me, what and how we reached the figure. So
sometimes if he owed me money for the house, he

(01:29:23):
would just eat the cost on traveling.

Speaker 2 (01:29:28):
Okay, But there was always financial compensation for this, right, yes, okay. Now,
earlier today, you mentioned that when you moved back to Mace,
there was a clandestine sexual relationship that went on behind

(01:29:52):
closed doors of his bedroom. Yes, was there a sexual
relationship that took place in other places besides just his bedroom?

Speaker 1 (01:30:06):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:30:08):
Where did those occur?

Speaker 1 (01:30:11):
Usually when we were on the date this happened.

Speaker 2 (01:30:15):
Where else did you have sexual interaction with mister Alexander?

Speaker 1 (01:30:23):
Sometimes it was hey, same objection, We just needed to
win well overalled answer the question. Sometimes it was in
my car in parking lots, sometimes it was when we traveled,
and sometimes it was at my house in Mesa.

Speaker 2 (01:30:43):
Now, when you mentioned your car earlier in your testimony,
you told us about the interaction that took place after
he gave you the Book of Mormon and you went
to Starbucks. Is that what we're talking about? Are we
talking about other occasions in your car? Other occasions but

(01:31:07):
the same kind of thing, And did those also occur
after you moved back to Mesa or did those occur
before you move back?

Speaker 1 (01:31:17):
I know they occurred after I moved to Masa.

Speaker 2 (01:31:19):
You also mentioned that sexual behavior was going on through
these trips you took with him as well.

Speaker 1 (01:31:25):
Right, Yes, it's right.

Speaker 2 (01:31:29):
And you also mentioned your house in Masa. Is that
the one you shared with Rachel? Or are you speaking
to the other home that you moved into a couple
of weeks later.

Speaker 1 (01:31:41):
The other home? He wouldn't go to Rachel's house.

Speaker 2 (01:31:46):
Is there a specific location in this home that your
sexual behavior with Travis took place?

Speaker 1 (01:31:55):
Yes, in my bedroom.

Speaker 2 (01:31:58):
Did it happen anywhere or else besides your beddor?

Speaker 1 (01:32:04):
Yes, a couple times.

Speaker 2 (01:32:08):
He Where where did the f he's occur besides your beder?
Were in your house?

Speaker 1 (01:32:14):
The front porch?

Speaker 2 (01:32:16):
And how did you wind up having sexual encounters with
Travis on the front porch, on your front horch? Excuse me?

Speaker 1 (01:32:25):
It was something he wanted to try, since I had
known him since two thousand and six. It was something
he expressed that he wanted to do. He had a
list of fantasies that he wanted to fulfill, and he
wanted to show up, get out of his car, she
her kids.

Speaker 2 (01:32:44):
Sorry, ask another question, No need to apologize, Jody, What
was this described for us? If you will, this fantasy
he had involving you being on the porch of your home, Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:33:09):
It was it was he wanted to drive up to
the house, something we couldn't do in Palm Desert. So
now that I was in Mesa, it was a different
kind of porch. It was more private. There was a
huge column, a big square stucco column that offered more privacy.

(01:33:29):
There was a big bush that created a shadow from
the street light. So this would occur at night, late
at night, And so he wanted to drive up to
the home. He wanted to get out of the car,
have me come out of the house, give him oral sex,
and he wanted to ejaculate on my face and then

(01:33:51):
get back in his car and drive away without saying
a single word.

Speaker 2 (01:33:59):
And were you to the dress during these interactions or
naked or what was his fantasy?

Speaker 1 (01:34:05):
I was dressed?

Speaker 2 (01:34:06):
And how many times did he do this?

Speaker 5 (01:34:13):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (01:34:13):
Two or a M O K two or three times?
I can only remember two specifically.

Speaker 2 (01:34:24):
Tell us about those two occasions. Tell us about the
first occasion.

Speaker 1 (01:34:31):
Well, the first occasion occurred just like I described, and
we talked later the next day. Second occasion, after he
was done, he dropped something near me and got into
his car and left, and so I picked up whatever
it was he dropped and took it inside to find
out what it was. What was it? It was totalerone.

Speaker 2 (01:34:53):
So he ejaculated on your face and threw you some candy.

Speaker 1 (01:34:58):
Pretty much.

Speaker 2 (01:34:59):
Is this hard for you to describe?

Speaker 1 (01:35:02):
Yeah, in front of my mom and dad, it is.

Speaker 2 (01:35:06):
You mentioned that mister Alexander had other fantasies that he
described for you, and you tell us another one of
those fantasies.

Speaker 1 (01:35:26):
He wanted to do the mile high which we never did.
He wanted to pull off of a freeway on a
remote highway somewhere and have sex on the hood of
the car, which we didn't do. But he also wanted
to have sex on the freeway while driving, which we

(01:35:48):
did on it was the ten or the forty we
were driving east across Texas. All sex, No, I think
it was vaginal.

Speaker 2 (01:35:59):
What other fantasies to be hal, He.

Speaker 1 (01:36:03):
Wanted me to wear the boys underwear. He had a
lot of anal sex fantasies. He wanted me to wear
the boys underwear and have anal sex, and he wanted
to wear his He had a lot of nice suits
because he was in pre paid legal, and he had
tailored shirts with his initials stitched into the cuffs. And

(01:36:27):
he wanted me to perform all sex on him in
his office while he was wearing those suits.

Speaker 2 (01:36:36):
And did you comply with that desire? Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:36:40):
Yeah, that one we did many times, probably a whole wardrobe.

Speaker 2 (01:36:48):
Now we were talking about the boys underwear an anal set.
Is this the boys underwear that you received back on
Valentine's Day? Y? Yes? Did he ever explain to you
why he wanted you to wear this underwear and why

(01:37:10):
he wanted to have anal sex with you when you
were wearing this underwear?

Speaker 1 (01:37:15):
He just said it was hot.

Speaker 2 (01:37:18):
He didn't offer any other explanation at the time. Not
at that time you mentioned, Well, let me ask you this,
How did you feel about having anal sex with Travis
when you were wearing these this boy spider Man underwear?

Speaker 1 (01:37:44):
Well after we began to do that more regularly, he
used lubrication a time, so it wasn't painful. And I
don't know, I guess there were times when I enjoyed
being with him, so I was will to do I
enjoyed making him happy, so I was willing to do

(01:38:05):
things that he liked to do. And while he did
those things that he liked to do, he was paying
attention to me. So I got something out of it too,
I guess in that regard.

Speaker 2 (01:38:16):
Okay, So, based on what you're telling us, that, are
you saying that he was he treated you differently before,
during and after these encounters? Just before and during? Could
you said he was paying a different amount of attention? Dude?
Can you maybe describe for us what you mean by that.

Speaker 1 (01:38:35):
Yes, when he was in the mood or turned on,
then he was very nice and paid attention to me.
Sometimes when we got together he was very loving and romantic.
Sometimes it was just animalistic afterwards. Usually when he was done,

(01:39:00):
he was.

Speaker 2 (01:39:00):
Done for a while, you mean done sexually or done
being nice?

Speaker 1 (01:39:07):
Done? He wasn't He didn't turn mean, but done being nice?

Speaker 2 (01:39:12):
I would say, okay, And then would it be fair
to say that when he wanted sex again he became nice? Oh,
once you moved back to Masa, you were having this
clandestine sexual relationship and you weren't his girlfriend, right?

Speaker 1 (01:39:39):
Yes, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:39:41):
Why was it's okay with you?

Speaker 1 (01:39:46):
I wasn't. I was. I guess I was still in
love with him, and I wasn't. I would go on
dates occasionally with other people, but there was no spark there,
I think because Travis had my heart and I really
there wasn't. I'm I'm a monogamous person, so I'm sleeping
with Travis, so there's not really any room in my

(01:40:08):
heart or mind or in my life. There wasn't making
room for anybody else. So that's kind of just how
it continued.

Speaker 2 (01:40:20):
So there was there ever any thought in your head,
this isn't right, I need to stop this relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:40:27):
There were times when it seemed very unhealthy and I
did have those thoughts.

Speaker 2 (01:40:33):
Did you ever vocalize those thoughts to Travis?

Speaker 1 (01:40:38):
Eventually? I did.

Speaker 2 (01:40:41):
Let's talk about this time period as well, because you
mentioned you were traveling with mister Alexander even after you
moved back to Masa. Is that accurate?

Speaker 1 (01:40:50):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:40:51):
Okay? And after you moved back to Masa in late
summer to the thousand and seven, where did you and
Travis travel to? What were some of the some of
the destinations you went to.

Speaker 1 (01:41:08):
Well, first, we went to Las Vegas for the convention,
which was in early September. Again, I went to the
executive director banquet with him again, and after that the
weekend following Las Vegas, there was going to be another recap,

(01:41:31):
but we ditched that and went with Dan and desire
to have a supply.

Speaker 2 (01:41:38):
Where else did you go?

Speaker 1 (01:41:41):
In October? We went to New Mexico, to Albuquerque for
the balloon Fiesta. We went to Santa Fe to ten
thousand Waves, Spa. We went to we saw Route sixty six.
There might have been another place. These were all places
that were in the book one thousand places. We began

(01:42:01):
calling it the list, so we're just checking places off
the list.

Speaker 2 (01:42:05):
And now I was kind of motivating your travel to
these spots. Is that correct?

Speaker 1 (01:42:08):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:42:10):
Before we get too far down the road to other
places you travel, I wanna show you what's been marked
Exhibits four thirty four and four thirty one. Would be
so kind to take a look at eight and what
you recognize Exhibit four thirty four to be.

Speaker 1 (01:42:33):
That's Travis Knight at the executive director of banquet in
March two thousand seven. An Exhibit four thirty one, that's
Travis and I at the Balloon Fiesta in Albuquerque.

Speaker 2 (01:42:46):
And when was that?

Speaker 1 (01:42:47):
That would be October two thousand seven.

Speaker 2 (01:42:50):
I would have moved to it and then exhibits four
thirty one and four thirty four schect or thirty one
and or thirty more hard admitted. Now you just mentioned
the executive Director's ball in two thousand and seven. Is

(01:43:18):
this what we're saying here?

Speaker 1 (01:43:19):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:43:21):
Is it hard for you to look at that picture?

Speaker 7 (01:43:23):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:43:28):
It's overall?

Speaker 1 (01:43:31):
Why, Oh, it's just very sentimental. It's about happier times
when you just look back. You don't think that it
would end up the way?

Speaker 5 (01:43:40):
Did?

Speaker 2 (01:43:42):
Let me show you what's been admitted as exhibit before
thirty one? You take a look at that fleef? Is
that hard to look at?

Speaker 1 (01:43:53):
Yeah? Why, we had a really bad fight that morning,
but it turned up better and we had a pretty
good day afterward.

Speaker 2 (01:44:02):
How long was this trip?

Speaker 1 (01:44:08):
I think just the weekend. I don't recall specifically, It
wasn't very long.

Speaker 2 (01:44:13):
Based on the picture, one might assume that you were
acting as a couple during this story for that trip.

Speaker 1 (01:44:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:44:20):
Did that end when you got back to MESA.

Speaker 1 (01:44:24):
Yeah, I did. Well, it depends on a time.

Speaker 2 (01:44:31):
Well, what do you mean by that.

Speaker 1 (01:44:36):
I was still coming over to his house. His roommate
tried to warn me that he was seeing other people,
So I mean it.

Speaker 2 (01:44:50):
Was Well, what I was asking you is if this
public affection that sort of thing ended when you got
back to Mexic.

Speaker 1 (01:45:02):
Yes, it did unless we were in his room.

Speaker 2 (01:45:04):
So affection was okay so long as you were in
his room or on your porch where he was ejaculating
on your face.

Speaker 1 (01:45:11):
Right. Well, yeah, but the latter wasn't really affection.

Speaker 2 (01:45:17):
That munch Okay, that brings up a good point. Come
out on the porch, you fulfill his fantasies. He ejaculates
on your face and throws some chop with at you.
How do you feel after that?

Speaker 1 (01:45:34):
I couldn't help thinking that it was kind of like
a prostitute, but I just didn't. I put that out
of my mind and just chalked it up to one
of his little antics that he did.

Speaker 2 (01:45:48):
Chalked it up to one of his little antics. Yes,
was there ever a point in time in your mind
that you said enough of his little antics, I'm done
with this guy.

Speaker 1 (01:46:05):
Maybe farther down the road, but before that, No, not.

Speaker 2 (01:46:11):
At that point in time.

Speaker 1 (01:46:12):
No, if anything we increased, what if anything, we increased
with those kinds of things, the antics, all that you
can call himantic.

Speaker 2 (01:46:24):
Well, let me ask again something I asked earlier. Had
he been physically abusive with you up to this point
in time, late summer of two thousand and seven.

Speaker 1 (01:46:38):
No, okay, Well, he grabbed my wrist one time, but
I didn't consider it abusive, So I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:46:44):
That's Well, when did that occur?

Speaker 1 (01:46:47):
At at the convention in Oklahoma City in March two thousand.

Speaker 2 (01:46:53):
And seven, describe those circumstances for us.

Speaker 1 (01:47:01):
I was, he and I were hanging out at the Sheraton.
This was two nights after uh, the drunk lady fell
all over him, and so we were just hanging out
with other colleagues and friends and I had to use
the restroom. So I went to the same restroom that
I ran to a few nights before. It's sort of

(01:47:23):
by a bar that's at the lobby. And so this
is Saturday night now, and by Saturday night, a lot
of people are partying. It's Convention's over, everyone's gonna leave Sunday.
So there were a lot of people. There was a
big crowd, a lot of people that were drinking and
just having fun and being social. And as I was
making my way back through the crowd, I heard somebody

(01:47:43):
call my name and I stopped and looked around and
see who it was, and it was Abe, the guy
had gone on a date with some months earlier. And
we talked briefly, and I don't remember if he had
heard of about what happened or if I told him
about what happened, but he just was listening and he

(01:48:05):
said you deserved better, and I said thanks. I said,
it's okay, you know that kind of thing. So then
I went We parted, and I made my way back
through the crowd, and I was leaving the crowd and
I saw Travis standing at the edge of the crowd
waiting for me, and I just smiled as I walked

(01:48:27):
up to him, went to grab his hand, and his
hand shot out and got my wrist instead.

Speaker 2 (01:48:34):
Was he angry with you?

Speaker 1 (01:48:39):
He seemed upset, but not at first. He seemed incredibly
angry until he started talking, and then I realized he
was pretty mad.

Speaker 2 (01:48:48):
How did he you said he grabbed your wrist? Did
he grab it hard or he just was he just
holding it?

Speaker 1 (01:48:53):
He grabbed it hard, but not painfully.

Speaker 2 (01:48:58):
Did that? Did it ever be become painful?

Speaker 1 (01:49:02):
Not at that moment. He was just squeezing very tightly,
but it didn't hurt.

Speaker 2 (01:49:06):
And you said that he was not that angry at
that time, but later you understood him to be more angry.
Is that correct?

Speaker 1 (01:49:16):
Well? Yeah, as soon as he began to talk, I
could tell he was pissed off.

Speaker 2 (01:49:20):
And how could you tell that without telling us what
he said? How could you tell that.

Speaker 1 (01:49:27):
By his demeanor, his tone, his words, And was he yelling? No,
he was kind of speaking very sternly, sort of under
his bread Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:49:43):
And was he I'm happy with the fact that you
were talking to mister Abdallah.

Speaker 1 (01:49:54):
Yes, he was. Well, he wanted to know what we
were talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:50:04):
And when you learned what you were talking about, is
that when you became more angry. Yes, And you were
talking about the idea that you deserve better, right, yes? Okay.
Moving back then to you're being in masive and the

(01:50:27):
sexual encounters you said they were happening more frequently. Was
this on a daily basis, a near daily basis, I'd.

Speaker 1 (01:50:41):
Say three to four times a week.

Speaker 2 (01:50:44):
And apart from those instances on the porch you mentioned
instances of his home. How did that work?

Speaker 1 (01:50:56):
If it was the middle of the day and nobody
was home, then there isn't as much of a need
to keep it a secret or keep it within the
confines of the bedroom. But if people were home and
his roommates were home, we had to be very quiet.
He used to complain that his house was made a

(01:51:17):
KB home and that the walls were thin and his
roommates could hear every sound, so we had to be quiet.

Speaker 2 (01:51:24):
So it was pretty obvious to you that your presence
there in the home was a secret to.

Speaker 1 (01:51:30):
His roommates, right, both, Well, maybe our activities. I parked
right in the driveway.

Speaker 2 (01:51:36):
Okay, So it wasn't your presence in the home. Was
the fact that he was having sex with you? That
was the secret? Yeah? Okay? Were precautions made? You mentioned daytime?
Sometimes this happened at night as well, Is that Craig?

Speaker 1 (01:51:54):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:51:55):
Okay? Were there precautions made for you getting out the
next morning? Did you stay the night? How did that work?

Speaker 1 (01:52:03):
I usually stay the night, but I left pretty early.

Speaker 2 (01:52:06):
Was that intentional to avoid the roommates knowing you spent
the night?

Speaker 1 (01:52:11):
Yes? Because well usually yes?

Speaker 2 (01:52:20):
Did you know this using mist it's on occasion with.

Speaker 1 (01:52:25):
People from this church. Sometimes I'd go on group dates.
But I definitely didn't have the impression that he was
in a committed relationship with anybody.

Speaker 2 (01:52:36):
And you've told us just a few moments ago that
you didn't believe that the two of you, or at
least you didn't characterize it as a committed relationship, right, No,
I didn't. Were you dating other people?

Speaker 1 (01:52:53):
I went on dates on occasion, but nothing that became repeated,
So nothing that blossomed in to any kind of relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:53:03):
Did to your knowledge that Travis know about any of
these dates you had with other individuals.

Speaker 1 (01:53:09):
He found out about one two actually early on if
we're talking the same.

Speaker 2 (01:53:18):
Time period, okay, and in this time period, the slate
two thousand and seven time period, these dates you went on.
Did he react positively or negatively too, knowing that you
went on these other days?

Speaker 1 (01:53:34):
One he just teased me, and the other one very negatively.

Speaker 2 (01:53:38):
You weren't in a relationship with him, what was the problem.

Speaker 1 (01:53:44):
The one that he reacted negatively to was a guy
that he hated. Who was that His name is John Dixon.

Speaker 2 (01:53:54):
So mister Alexander believed or would be your impression that
mister Alexander believed that he had a right to tell
you who you could date at this time period.

Speaker 1 (01:54:09):
Oh, he just specifically didn't want me to.

Speaker 2 (01:54:16):
Date that guy. And was that okay with you for
mister Alexander to dictate whom you dated? Oi the aviage.

Speaker 7 (01:54:26):
She never indicated it dictated, just that he didn't want.

Speaker 1 (01:54:29):
Her to date a guy. Repraise your question.

Speaker 2 (01:54:33):
Okay, so you go out on a date, you're not
his girlfriend. You go out on a date with somebody
named John Dixon, right, yes, And mister Alexander doesn't like
mister Dickson, right yes. So because of that, you're not
supposed to date John Dixon because Travis doesn't like it.

Speaker 1 (01:54:55):
Not date him, and not even be his friend.

Speaker 2 (01:54:58):
Because Travis says so, right he will. Yeah, yeah, so
you could date who you wanted unless Travis told you no.

Speaker 1 (01:55:09):
Right, Yeah, it seemed that way.

Speaker 2 (01:55:16):
And all the time when he's having sex with you
behind closed doors or on your.

Speaker 7 (01:55:20):
Ports right attention foundation as to what he's having the
sex and foundation as to when he dated John Dixon
a different time period, Josh, No.

Speaker 2 (01:55:29):
He's can't testify. She can't not him. Misty fall of
two thousand and seven. He comes over, he ejaculates, ejaculates
on your face, goes candy at you, has you having
sex behind closed doors, and you're not in a committed relationship. Right,

(01:55:49):
the fall of two thousand and seven, that's what we're
talking about, right, Yes, that's the same time period you
dared to defy mister Alexander go out on a date
with John Dixon. Right. She sh didn't say that she
he was just upset about it.

Speaker 7 (01:56:03):
The characterization is what's objectionable.

Speaker 2 (01:56:06):
Was stained rephrase, when did you go out with John Dixon?

Speaker 1 (01:56:11):
It was actually right before the fall late August, I
think the very last weekend in August.

Speaker 2 (01:56:18):
So mister Alexander expressed his anger in the fall of
two thousand and seven about you going on a date
with mister Dickson.

Speaker 1 (01:56:25):
Right, Yes, he found out the morning we were leaving
for having suply Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:56:30):
But it didn't stop him from having sex with you. Right, No,
ejaculating on your face didn't stop doing that, right, jection
asked an answer, Oh, overall, and it didn't stop him
from going to have a superli with you. Right? No,
did it stop you from dating John Dickson? Again? Yeah?

(01:56:59):
Did it stop you from really dating anyone else again.

Speaker 1 (01:57:08):
I went on a couple more dates during that time
and on through the next year.

Speaker 2 (01:57:13):
Okay, did you tell Travis about those or did you
try to keep those a secret?

Speaker 5 (01:57:16):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:57:17):
I learned to stop telling him anything about my social life.
Regarding that, I didn't tell him about John he found out.

Speaker 2 (01:57:23):
Okay, I have to ask again, with this state of affairs,
why not cut the proverbial cord. Why not break up
with this guy who's telling you you can't you can
date him, you can't date him? Why not put an
end to it?

Speaker 1 (01:57:45):
Well, I mean, right now, we're kind of focusing on
the negative things. There were things he did that made
me feel like a million dollars for us, it was
more it was less what he did and just more
how he treated me. At times. He would say little
things that were sentimental and have meaning between us. He

(01:58:10):
got me little gifts, nothing expensive, but it was more
the thought and just the gestures that he did. And
he still would allude to the fact that he wanted
to marry me, even though I don't know that he
was very serious.

Speaker 2 (01:58:26):
Kept telling you things you wanted to hear.

Speaker 1 (01:58:28):
Yeah he was, Yeah, he did.

Speaker 2 (01:58:31):
Good promise you. Oh, come on, Jode, come on, maybe
I'll marry you someday.

Speaker 1 (01:58:34):
Right, No, it wasn't quite like that.

Speaker 2 (01:58:36):
How was it?

Speaker 1 (01:58:37):
If I did something that he liked or that was
that pleased him in some kind of way, like something
I said or something I did, he would just look
at me kind of.

Speaker 8 (01:58:51):
With this.

Speaker 1 (01:58:53):
Enigmatic smile and say, marry me. And it wasn't like
an actual proposal. But you know, it's kind of a joke.
But I took it as a compliment.

Speaker 2 (01:59:04):
Why why would.

Speaker 1 (01:59:07):
You take that because he only said those things when
I did something.

Speaker 4 (01:59:17):
That I that.

Speaker 1 (01:59:20):
Would merit me being a good wife potentially.

Speaker 2 (01:59:27):
I'm sorry the last part you said, being a.

Speaker 1 (01:59:29):
Good wife, like if I did something that might be
in line with that. I took it as a compliment
because that was my goal at the time, and that's
what I wanted to become.

Speaker 2 (01:59:41):
Okay, did you want to become his wife? I was?

Speaker 1 (01:59:48):
I was. That was my desire for a while until
probably after having a supply.

Speaker 2 (01:59:57):
What changed after have a SUPERI that made you decide
I don't want to marry.

Speaker 1 (02:00:03):
My feelings for him didn't necessarily change, but in my
mind we had such a bad fight that morning he
said some very ugly things to me, that it was
a boundary we had never crossed before. And I couldn't
imagine marrying somebody that had said those things to me,
or raising children with a man who who had who

(02:00:25):
their father had said those things to their mother kind
of thing.

Speaker 2 (02:00:28):
That's how I what kind of things were we talking about?
He said, not being offered for the truth of matter?
So did the effect on the listener?

Speaker 4 (02:00:43):
Ladies and gentlemen, We're going to take the afternoon recess.

Speaker 2 (02:00:46):
Please be back in the designated.

Speaker 1 (02:00:47):
Area at three point fifteen. Please remember the adminuition.

Speaker 4 (02:00:52):
Thanks I maybe she did. The record will show the
jury is bt. The courtroom, you may step down. The
serials council please approach it, and all counsel you may continue.

Speaker 2 (02:01:12):
Thank you, jose Jordy. Before the break, we were talking
about an argument that you had with mister Alexander before
they have a soup like trip and when he had
learned that you went out on a day with John Dixon, right, Yes,

(02:01:35):
the argument you had with him. Where did that take place?

Speaker 1 (02:01:41):
I believe it started downstairs over the backpack. That's kind
of what started it. And I took the backpack upstairs
into his bathroom to look for my toothbrush. Everything had
been repacked, so I didn't know what was what and
I just woke up wanted to brush my teeth before
we hit the road, and he came into the bathroom
and the argument escalated in the bathroom.

Speaker 2 (02:02:01):
Okay, this was the argument that mister Freeman testified. It
was all about makeup and personal care.

Speaker 1 (02:02:10):
Products, right, yes, but it wasn't makeup.

Speaker 2 (02:02:13):
What sort of things you said that he said that
Travis said things to you up in that bathroom that
made you realize that that wasn't the type of person
that you wanted to marry. Right, Did I understand that correctly?

Speaker 1 (02:02:30):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (02:02:31):
Okay, What things did he say to you that made
you feel that way?

Speaker 1 (02:02:39):
It was only one thing specifically. As our argument escalated
and got more and more. By this point, I was
brushing my teeth. I'd found my toothpaste and toothbrush, and
I was crying. He had found out about my date
because I wrote it in my journal regrettably, and he
when he repacked it, he read it and I was
incredibly detailed. But it talked about the time, I'm sorry

(02:03:02):
I got this job.

Speaker 2 (02:03:02):
An argument and then she wants to tell us about
a journal of that sort of thing. There's good enough
that she's just not responsive. So objection the n the
scope of the question.

Speaker 1 (02:03:11):
I responsor you state your question.

Speaker 2 (02:03:13):
Jody, What did Travis say to you the man you
realized he didn't want to marry? What specifically he said?

Speaker 1 (02:03:23):
Fuck you?

Speaker 2 (02:03:23):
What else? Say anything else?

Speaker 1 (02:03:27):
Well, he said a lot of things about John. He
was calling him John Dickhead instead of John Dixon. That
was his nickname for him for the last year. And
after he said f you, he'd turned on his heels
and left the bathroom.

Speaker 2 (02:03:46):
Why'd you still decide to go to have a simp ilot?

Speaker 1 (02:03:48):
Well, there was a lot of crying and that kind
of thing. Dan came in the bathroom. I didn't realize
he was in there. I was blowing the nose and crying,
and I was embarrassed to be arguing in front of him.
So Dan kind of was like Dan and Desiree were
kind of like the glue. They sort of said, you know, hey,

(02:04:12):
let's just calm down, let's try to get along, let's
try to get on this trip. I wanted to go
on the trip, but I c I contemplated just going
home because it was really bad, and I.

Speaker 2 (02:04:25):
Was it was really what was that?

Speaker 1 (02:04:26):
It was really bad between us. I was mortified, like
we had never argued to this extent, and much less
in front of somebody else. So I was very embarrassed
and I felt very ashamed, and so I stayed in
the bathroom for a little while trying to calm myself down.
And then it's I don't remember how it all came together,

(02:04:48):
but eventually we all were in the garage in the
car and we were.

Speaker 3 (02:04:53):
Beginning to drive off to second episode of Speak and
go to have a super lay anyway or right.

Speaker 2 (02:05:01):
Less? Really leading overruled me as it yes, and it
sounds like during this trip you two were acting like
boyfriend and girlfriend again.

Speaker 1 (02:05:18):
Right during some parts we were kind of well, I
felt like my feelings were hurt. So I wasn't very
responsive to him at that time. I wasn't ignoring him,
I wasn't being rude or anything, but I just felt
like an emotional chasm between.

Speaker 2 (02:05:34):
Us and this trip was when again, it would.

Speaker 1 (02:05:37):
Be probably the second weekend in September.

Speaker 2 (02:05:40):
Okay, let's move back then towards the late part of
two thousand and seven, we were talking about how the
usual course of conduct was uh late night rendezvous. Be

(02:06:02):
they on your porch, be they are in his bedroom? Right?
And that happened you said about three or four times
a week, right, answer.

Speaker 1 (02:06:12):
Al Gereldy answer, yes, that's correct.

Speaker 2 (02:06:14):
Okay. And at this point in time, and now we're
talking late two thousand and seven, has he been physically
ABUSI with you other than the one incident you.

Speaker 1 (02:06:31):
Told us about late two thousand and seven. There was
a point in October, late October where he pushed me
down on the ground in his bedroom. But I landed
on my knees. I didn't like fall over or anything.

Speaker 2 (02:06:46):
You say. He pushed you down on the ground and
in his bedroom.

Speaker 1 (02:06:50):
Are you a better his bedroom?

Speaker 2 (02:06:52):
Okay? Not that there would be any excuse for it,
But what did you understand its motivation to be? Not
that there would be any excuse for it.

Speaker 1 (02:07:03):
The state?

Speaker 2 (02:07:05):
What was his reason for pushing you over?

Speaker 1 (02:07:09):
He was we were arguing.

Speaker 7 (02:07:11):
He gonna tell us what he said, No overworld, Okay.

Speaker 1 (02:07:16):
We were arguing, and I got up to leave, and
he wasn't done making his point, and he wanted to stay,
and he wanted me to stay, so I guess he
could finish yelling at me.

Speaker 2 (02:07:28):
I guess he was what I didn't understand the last
you wanted.

Speaker 1 (02:07:31):
I got up to leave his bedroom and he blocked
the door and took my arms and shut me down,
and I landed on my knees and he said, you're
not going to Okay, it's.

Speaker 2 (02:07:43):
Not being offered for the South and mattersta than excited
utterance approach.

Speaker 1 (02:07:55):
Overworld.

Speaker 2 (02:07:56):
What did mister Alexander say? What he pushed you do?

Speaker 1 (02:08:00):
He said? He said no, like five times fast, like no, no, no, no, no,
you're not going anywhere.

Speaker 2 (02:08:09):
You weren't allowed to leave? Right as he stayed. Were
you allowed to leave?

Speaker 1 (02:08:18):
I didn't push the issue at that point. I tried
to leave one more time and he stopped me again.
And then on the third time I tried to leave,
he didn't stop me.

Speaker 2 (02:08:27):
The second time he tried to leave, he said, he
stopped you. Did he grab me and throwing you out again?

Speaker 1 (02:08:31):
No? He just put his hands on my shoulders, okay, forcefully? Yes?

Speaker 2 (02:08:39):
Call you names?

Speaker 1 (02:08:41):
Yes?

Speaker 7 (02:08:42):
Like what?

Speaker 2 (02:08:43):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (02:08:44):
That was a such an awful fight. I don't remember
all the names he called. I just remember one thing
that really sticks out is he was insulting my family.

Speaker 7 (02:08:56):
So he was asked if she was called any names
and were talking about the fame.

Speaker 2 (02:09:00):
Okay, well let's ask this. How was he insulting your family?
Was it calling them names?

Speaker 1 (02:09:05):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (02:09:06):
What was he saying about your family?

Speaker 1 (02:09:09):
He was saying that my brother was a faggot because
his name is Carl.

Speaker 2 (02:09:20):
What else?

Speaker 1 (02:09:23):
I told him that he was named after my grandfather,
and he said, your grandfather must be a faggot too.
Then that's just something I remember specifically that bother me.
It's not that I mean, I wouldn't care if they're gay,
but that's Travis's way of in issuing a deep insult
to him. That's insulting.

Speaker 2 (02:09:43):
Did he say anything about your other familys?

Speaker 1 (02:09:48):
Not you? Not in that specific argument.

Speaker 2 (02:09:53):
Now, this specific argument where he grabbed you throws you down,
restrains your second time when you get to leave. What
was the What was the thing that was so important
that Travis wanted to do and so your family? Or
was there something.

Speaker 1 (02:10:08):
Else He just kept renting and raving and yelling.

Speaker 2 (02:10:14):
You don't remember about what.

Speaker 1 (02:10:16):
Honestly, my brain sort of went on freeze and I
don't remember a lot of what he was saying was
just killing.

Speaker 2 (02:10:23):
Oh, why wasn't this day the day he throws you down,
the day he grabs you, the day he won't let
you leave the room, the day he insults what he believes,
or insult to to your family. Oh was it the
that the last day you saw Travis?

Speaker 1 (02:10:45):
Last day? Well, it was going to be, cause when
I was leaving the stairs or leaving going downstairs, he
followed me all about to my car, just saying one
mean thing after another. And then his tone changed to
something very friendly, but it was like artificial friendly. And
he said, I have a great idea. And he said,
how about you moved to Antarctica and never call me again?

(02:11:07):
And I said, mineus Antarctica. Sure, And and I was
getting into the car, and after my leg got into
the car, he slammed the door hard and I started
to drive away. So I thought we were not going
to talk at that point. It was a very low
point for me. I throughout the fall, I had been

(02:11:28):
feeling suicidal, so I thought that that was kind of
the point where I decided I wanted to go through
with that. So I called my friend Matt because he
had guns, and I was gonna ask him if I
could borrow one cause I wanted to kill myself and
he could tell I didn't. I don't know. He called

(02:11:51):
a suicide hotline and had me call them, and he
called my dad or my parents, and as I was
on the phone with Matt, Travis began calling again. So
I was driving back home, and I wanted to answer because, uh,
Travis always apologized after he had been very mean, and
I thought, maybe this is his apology, but it sometimes

(02:12:13):
it was took a while to calm down, so it
could just be more of the same of his anger.
So I I hung up anyway with Matt, and I
answered the phone, and Travis was very sweet and very calm,
and he was telling me to come back, and then
he was too harsh on me, and he felt bad
and I needed to help him make his bed. I
had been there doing laundry and cleaning the house when

(02:12:33):
that fight started, so I hadn't finished making the bed
and all the sheets were out of the dryer.

Speaker 2 (02:12:39):
M So he wanted you to get back to your
duties as am right, I mean, just had that Oh cool?
Is that right?

Speaker 1 (02:12:52):
The implication was more, come help me make my bed so.

Speaker 2 (02:12:54):
We can make up make up meaning half sex. Yes,
did he request this French made out for it again? No,
So he makes this call. You begin to feel better.
Do you go back over to his house?

Speaker 1 (02:13:14):
Yes, I'm telling him no, But at the same time,
I'm turning around in the turnabout that's in my neighborhood.
What's that I'm saying no at the same time that
I'm actually doing it anyway, I'm going through the turnabout
on the way to my house. But instead of go
all the way through it and turn.

Speaker 2 (02:13:28):
Around, why'd you turn around? Jody?

Speaker 1 (02:13:35):
He was just he was being the nice person that
I was, I guess craving like I felt like a
writhing aunt under a magnifying glass for the last three hours.
It was a long fight. And now he was he
had relented, and he was being nice, and he was
implying that his feelings would be heard if I didn't

(02:13:56):
come over. He was seeing it very sweet, almost baby talk,
but not quite. And so I came back to his house.

Speaker 2 (02:14:05):
Did you have a sexual interaction with him after you
came back to his house to make up?

Speaker 1 (02:14:13):
Yes, we made the bed, and then yes, and then
yes what we he we? I we had analsex that night,
but he was. It wasn't like it wasn't it was
kind of loving. I mean he said I love you,
and he whispered those things in my ear while he
was doing that.

Speaker 2 (02:14:33):
And yeah, I wanna ask there was an incident talked
about earlier where you walked into Travis's house and Lisa
Andrews was there. Do you remember hearing about that during

(02:14:55):
this Yeah? Was that around this same time period when
all these things were going on.

Speaker 1 (02:15:04):
Yes, it was right before or after we were in
New Mexico.

Speaker 2 (02:15:09):
Okay, so you get back from this trip in New
Mexico Exhibit four thirty one. You're acting as a happy
couple in New Mexico. How is it that you came
to Travis's house the evening that Lisa Andrews saw you there?

Speaker 1 (02:15:33):
I was, well, this might have been before New Mexico,
but it was all around the same time. I had
been hired at Pfchanin's in the summer, and his roommate
John Hepworth was always talking about how much you liked
the honey chicken on their menu was his favorite dish.
And so one night, it was a Monday night, which
would be family home evening in the church, I had

(02:15:55):
it I worked though for sure it's called fag and
I got off work early because it was Monday night
and it was slow, and there was an extra honey
chicken that was getting thrown away, so the chef said
I could have it, so it was still fresh. It
was in it to go container. I put it into
I could to go a container. And I had taken

(02:16:18):
food home before and I usually offered to split it
with my roommates. They never really wanted it. It was
still early, so I knew or I assumed Travis was
at church, and so I wasn't gonna call him, but
I called John because he lives close by, and I said,
do you want half of the sunny chicken? And he
said yes cause he liked it, And so I was

(02:16:38):
gonna go over there split it with him, and then
go back home because if you put it in the fridge,
it gets real soggy, it's spreaded and glazed. And so
I headed over. Well, he said Travis wasn't home. I
asked him, I said Travis home yet? He said no.
So I started driving over to his house and I
pulled into the driveway in the same place where I
was go and I always came and went in his

(02:17:00):
house without knocking. It's just something I did a lot
of friends always did. And so I walked into the
house with the container of honey chicken in my hands,
and I'm walking down it's kind of a walkway with Tyle.
There's a living room here, and as I was coming
toward the kitchen, which is just beyond that, there's a wall.

(02:17:21):
Just beyond that. I was getting around the kitchen to
get a plate for John. John was on the couch
over here watching tabe and I came around the kitchen
and Travis was standing there with another girl. I didn't
see who the girl was because I just saw hair
and he was standing in front of her. So I
was mortified. I was like, oh my gosh. So I immediately
turned and walked right back out, straight out the front door,

(02:17:44):
and I got in my car and I left, and
I was really embarrassed because I thought he wasn't home.
And I started driving. I drove west down Elliott and
then I turned north on Signal Butte, and right as
I turned north on Signal Butte, there was a car
that came right up behind me with their high beams on,
and they were right up on the tail end of

(02:18:07):
my car.

Speaker 2 (02:18:08):
And who was in that car, well, I didn't know.

Speaker 1 (02:18:10):
At first. I thought it was somebody that had to
go somewhere fast. So I was coming up on a
LD's chapel that was on the left side of the street,
and then across from the street from that was a turnout.
So I assumed I'm just gonna drive a some a
few more yards and then pull over in this turnout.
But this car pulled over the double yellow line and
sped up, and so I thought, Wow, they're really in
a hurry, and then pulled in front of me him

(02:18:32):
and braked really hard and I almost hit the car.
And then that's when my headlights hit the paint and
I could see it was purple. It was BMW. It
was Travis's car. So he pulled then into the turnabout,
and I assumed he wanted me to pull over because
of that, so I pulled in behind him.

Speaker 2 (02:18:47):
Oh did he offer explanation for what you had just
walked in on?

Speaker 1 (02:18:52):
After? I asked? Yeh.

Speaker 2 (02:18:54):
During that discussion, did he admit to you that he
was dating the Andrews.

Speaker 1 (02:19:01):
No, he didn't say who it was. I didn't see
what was He just said, a girl from his warden
was there and sh she wanted she wanted to see
his house and he was just giving her a tour.

Speaker 8 (02:19:11):
Did he invite you back to the hall, Not at
that point, but he gave me a hug and he
squeezed my butt and said, you're coming over later tonight,
right like that.

Speaker 2 (02:19:21):
And what did that mean to you?

Speaker 5 (02:19:24):
What?

Speaker 2 (02:19:24):
Were you coming over there later that evening for.

Speaker 1 (02:19:28):
To hang out sex?

Speaker 2 (02:19:30):
Pretty much after he was done with this date with
Lisa Andrews. You were to come over to have sex
with him? Is that what we're saying here?

Speaker 1 (02:19:39):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (02:19:40):
Now, late two thousand seven, you talk about how this
relationship is going on and on and on. Are you
still living in masson early two thousand eight?

Speaker 1 (02:19:54):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (02:19:57):
Are you having such well intercourse with mister Alexander in
two thousand and eight early two thousand eight?

Speaker 1 (02:20:06):
Yes? Well cool? Yes, not vaginal okay, so much?

Speaker 2 (02:20:11):
Not vaginal intercourse? No, was that you'd had it before?
Was there a reason you weren't having it at that time?

Speaker 1 (02:20:24):
Yes? After well, the first time I was asleep. The
second time was in August two thousand seven. That was consensual,
and I knew we had gone all the way. So
obviously that was pretty black and white that that was
not okay. So I confided in Rachel. I didn't wanna
tell her that we went all the way, but I said,
I think Travis, I might have gone too far. Even
though I knew we'd gone too far, I wanted to

(02:20:44):
get her advice, and she asked me how far we'd gone.
So I just I thought oral sex was okay. So
I threw that out there. I was like, well, we've
had oral sex, and her jaw dropped almost to the floor,
and she freaked out and said, you have to go
to your bishop right now. And I didn't know that.
And she said, Travis has to go to You need
to do it right away, get right back on the
right track and go tell him right now, and wear

(02:21:05):
your seat belt. You know, the implication being you don't
wanna get a car accident and die before you repent.
It was that serious to her, and so I I
didn't know that. So I got in the car and
called Travis and went over there and.

Speaker 2 (02:21:18):
T so t t To make a long story short, here,
you did want to have vaginal sex because of the
vowed chastis of the law of chastis right. Yes, did
anything happen in January of two thousand and eight it

(02:21:41):
changed the relationship with mister Alexander? Yes, what happened?

Speaker 7 (02:21:49):
Yes, if you could have any of days, if you
could have the.

Speaker 2 (02:21:52):
Date of the time. I'm asking what happened in January
two thousand eight, she could explain.

Speaker 1 (02:22:00):
Council growth may continue.

Speaker 2 (02:22:02):
Is there this event that happened in January two thousand
eight before we go into the particulars of it, do
you remember where it occurred?

Speaker 5 (02:22:17):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (02:22:18):
Where in his bedroom?

Speaker 2 (02:22:20):
Do you remember the date that it occurred.

Speaker 1 (02:22:26):
It was on a Monday, and it was late January
two thousand eight. O. I think it was around the
twenty first.

Speaker 2 (02:22:31):
What did you see on the twenty first or late
January two thousand eight? Or I should say this, what
happened on the twenty first of January two thousand eight
that changed the course of your relationship with Travis.

Speaker 7 (02:22:46):
S You could have a time forrning noon afternoon sh
she can explain the story, Judge.

Speaker 1 (02:22:53):
Alright over, I got off work. I was working at
Mamie's cafe at that point in Mesa. I got off
work and came over to his house and helped him.
He w He was loading boxes into the attic. He

(02:23:15):
was just rearranging stuff, he said, So I was helping him.
I was just handing them up to him, and we
were hanging out for a while. He disappeared in the
attic for a minute, so I was waiting for him,
and then he kind of popped out and said the
food and scared me and laughed about that, and then
he came down the ladder and he handed me a

(02:23:38):
little porcelain. It was a white porcelain angel that he had,
and he handed it to me and called me an
angel and gave it to me, and I thought that
was sweet, and so I went and put it next
to my purse, which was on the dresser in his bedroom.
And we hung out a little bit longer downstairs in
his office, and then I was leaving, so I ran upstairs,

(02:23:59):
got my p shut the bedroom door after I'd already
said goodbye to him, and I left. And then as
I was driving back home, I realized I left the
porcelain angel there and Travis Is I knew he would,
just knowing him, he would call me and make me
feel guilty about it, or in a joking way, but
in a way that was, I wouldn't live it down
for a while.

Speaker 2 (02:24:19):
What what way did you do?

Speaker 1 (02:24:21):
So I turned her. I thought of getting it later,
but because of that pattern, I turned around to go
get it. And I called him real quick on his
cell phone. He didn't answer. Called him real quick on
his house phone. He didn't answer. I hadn't been gone
ten minutes, so I didn't think it was a big deal.
I just went back there. I walked in, and I
ran upstairs, and I went into his bedroom to grab it.

Speaker 2 (02:24:42):
And what did you see when you got there?

Speaker 1 (02:24:45):
I walked in and Travis was on the bed masturbating,
and I got really embarrassed. Even though he'd been intimate,
like more times than I could count, it was just
kind of awkward walking in on on him like that.
And I was headed toward the dresser. Then I stopped,
and I was trying to think of something funnier witty

(02:25:08):
to say, like, Uh, do you still need my help
or something, And he started grabbing at something on the
bed and I realized they were papers. And as he
was grabbing the papers, one c one kind of went
sailing off the bed and it fell, and that chaotic
pattern that paper falls and it it landed face up

(02:25:29):
near my feet, and it was a photograph.

Speaker 2 (02:25:35):
What was in the photograph? What was the photograph of?

Speaker 1 (02:25:38):
It was a picture of a little boy.

Speaker 2 (02:25:41):
Could you guess how old pressed the little boy was?

Speaker 1 (02:25:47):
Oh? Five ish five six, I'm not a good judge
of age.

Speaker 2 (02:25:52):
Did you recognize the little boy?

Speaker 1 (02:25:55):
No?

Speaker 2 (02:25:58):
Was the little boy dressed?

Speaker 1 (02:26:01):
He was dressed in underwear like briefs.

Speaker 2 (02:26:05):
After you saw this, what did.

Speaker 1 (02:26:09):
You I was frozen there for a minute, well not
maybe not a whole minute, but I I didn't know
how to react. It kind of seemed like one of
those dreams where something is really off but you just
can't can't figure it out. And so I I left
the angel there on the dresser and I turned it
bold and he called my name, and I just brad.

(02:26:31):
I didn't stay, and I got in my car and
started driving home again.

Speaker 2 (02:26:37):
I got sorry, did you say he called you a name?
Or he called your name?

Speaker 1 (02:26:41):
He called my name? Okay, he said, wait, I called my.

Speaker 2 (02:26:44):
Name, So I'm sorry. You were you were driving away
from his home. How did you feel about what you saw?

Speaker 1 (02:26:57):
I felt nauseated. I would drive all the way home
and I was trying to drive fast enough to get
to well, I try not to pull over to throw up.
I got home and I was hitting the garage door
opener about half a block away so that it would
be open, and I pulled right into the garage and
ran inside and threw up in the bathroom.

Speaker 2 (02:27:20):
Did you speak? Did Travis make further attempts to call you?
After you saw what you saw? Yep? How soon?

Speaker 1 (02:27:33):
I After I cleaned myself up, I went back out
to my car to get my purse and my phone,
and I saw that there were some miscalls from him,
like four, maybe three or four?

Speaker 2 (02:27:52):
Was this Why wasn't this moment in time? Why wasn't
this the end of your relationship with him?

Speaker 1 (02:28:04):
Well, I wasn't even thinking anything along those lines at
that time. I was confused and I was crying, and
I didn't really know what to make of all that.
So I went for a drive before when I didn't
answer the phone, and when he called repeatedly he would
come over to the house cause I didn't live far
and I I didn't want to be at the house
when he came over. I wasn't sure how to talk

(02:28:26):
to him or what to say. I didn't, so I
left and I drove around for a while and Mason.
Then I ended up at the the Temple visitor center
and I hung out in there for a little while
and I just was collecting my thoughts and not really meditating,
but just trying to figure out what to do next

(02:28:48):
and how to handle that.

Speaker 2 (02:28:51):
Did you get or did you come to a a
decision as far as what to do next?

Speaker 1 (02:29:01):
Well, I I wanted to I wasn't. I couldn't imagine
like never talking to him again.

Speaker 2 (02:29:07):
Why not?

Speaker 1 (02:29:10):
That would just be if we if we never spoke
again after that point, I would feel unsettled. And I
don't know. I wanted to let him explain at least.
I went out and checked my phone again. My phone
was turned off at the end the visitor center, so
I went out and checked my voicemail and there were

(02:29:31):
there was a frantic voicemail from him finally, and there
were more miscalls and he said, just come over and
talk to me, that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (02:29:38):
And so there was something again. Jody. Let me let
me address the question. R. Perhaps it's difficult, but why
would it be you just from what you told us
you saw him masturbating to the image of a child.

(02:30:01):
Why would it have been a problem for you. Were
you Why couldn't you imagine not having any more contact
with him after that?

Speaker 1 (02:30:12):
I when I was thinking in the temple, I mean,
I've heard in the past that usually people who have
problems like that were hurt when they were children. And
I kept thinking, what if he was hurt when he
was a kid. And it made me angry to think
of him as a kid and somebody violating him, and
just really made me mad. And so I tried to

(02:30:32):
mitigate it in my head in that way, and I
wanted to talk to him and find out what was
wrong with like, what was going on with him?

Speaker 2 (02:30:41):
So did you return his phone calls or or what
happened next?

Speaker 1 (02:30:49):
I called him back finally after a while, and we
decided we agreed to meet up. We were going to
swap cars for family home meeting and.

Speaker 2 (02:31:04):
What you were going to swap cars for family home
evening nights? So would you told us yes, so he
could have your car or you could have his both.

Speaker 1 (02:31:15):
I mean, at the time I was driving his car,
but he didn't want to drive my car to church
with people. He wanted to take his own car.

Speaker 2 (02:31:23):
Okay, So he was the one going to family home
evening right, Yes, okay, same day he got caught masturbating
the images of children, he was going to family home
evening right, Yes, okay, So you returned to his home
and you're going to trade cars. Did you just get

(02:31:47):
your car and get out of there?

Speaker 1 (02:31:48):
We never hooked up before family moeting. I had a
migraine and I needed to just sleep, and I just
I don't know. I woke up later in the evening
and I went over to his house later that night.

Speaker 2 (02:32:05):
Oh okay, you go to his house later that night.
Did you talk with him?

Speaker 1 (02:32:16):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (02:32:16):
Do you ask him about what you saw?

Speaker 1 (02:32:22):
I didn't really have to ask him. I just was
silent and let him do the talking.

Speaker 2 (02:32:25):
Mostly, what did he say, chess hears when we first
md this conversation you were having, or had with mister
Alexander after you viewed his masturbating to an image of

(02:32:45):
a young child? What was the subject matter of the conversation?

Speaker 1 (02:32:55):
Mostly about he was explaining.

Speaker 2 (02:33:00):
To me without telling us what he said. What was
he explaining to you? She's explaining and she's telling us
what he said.

Speaker 7 (02:33:10):
She could talk about what the subject matter was and
the effect, which is.

Speaker 2 (02:33:13):
What we discussed after that conversation, did you come away
with the understanding that mister Alexander had a sexual interest
in children?

Speaker 1 (02:33:31):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (02:33:34):
Did you come away with the understanding that it was
boys and girls? Or was it just one or the other?

Speaker 7 (02:33:46):
For the substance mean they're just prefacing it by saying,
is that you're understanding.

Speaker 2 (02:33:51):
Your friend? Did you believe him to have an interest
in young boys? Oh?

Speaker 5 (02:33:58):
World?

Speaker 1 (02:33:59):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (02:34:00):
Did you believe him to have an interest in young girl?

Speaker 1 (02:34:03):
I already knew he was interested in young girls, but
they were like sexually mature girls with minors.

Speaker 2 (02:34:11):
Okay, talk about that in a minute, but I wanna
finish this conversation. Did he expressed or did you come
away with the understanding that you could help him with
this problem?

Speaker 1 (02:34:31):
That's the impression he gave me.

Speaker 2 (02:34:35):
And what was your understanding of how you were to
help him with this problem?

Speaker 1 (02:34:43):
He preferred sex with women? He what he preferred sex
with women? Why made him feel normal? More normal?

Speaker 2 (02:34:56):
In this conversation, was there any discussion about why he
wanted you to wear the boys Spider Man underwear?

Speaker 1 (02:35:13):
That was the reason for it, apparently.

Speaker 2 (02:35:16):
The reason being, if I understand you correctly, that he
liked pretending that you were a young boy.

Speaker 1 (02:35:23):
I didn't ask him what he was visualizing, but.

Speaker 2 (02:35:28):
That's objection then a speculation that was your understanding of
why he was doing it after the conversation, right, yeh?
Was this the last time you ever spoke with Toris Alexander?

Speaker 1 (02:35:44):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (02:35:45):
Did you leave right away after this discussion?

Speaker 5 (02:35:49):
No?

Speaker 2 (02:35:51):
Did you have Did you submit to a sexual interaction
with mister Alexander after this discussion?

Speaker 1 (02:35:58):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (02:36:01):
And what sort of interaction was there?

Speaker 1 (02:36:03):
It was sex? It was anal sex.

Speaker 2 (02:36:05):
Why, Jody, were you willing to submit yourself to sexual
interaction with mister Alexander having seen and having heard everything
you saw and heard that day.

Speaker 5 (02:36:24):
It's hard to describe as it's very embarrassing, but he
he seemed very ashamed with himself and.

Speaker 1 (02:36:38):
Like he didn't want to be that way. It was
something he struggled with and that's not who he wanted
to be. It's not who he wanted to be in
the future, and he was trying to deal with it.
And when he had sex with women, he felt like

(02:36:59):
annoy heterosexual man and that's what he wanted to be,
and that's what he said he was, and that's what
I believed him to be and I and so when
he has sex with women, he felt more normal and
it was preferable to his other devant urges that you

(02:37:24):
could say.

Speaker 2 (02:37:26):
So, were you doing this to help him?

Speaker 1 (02:37:33):
Yeah, you could say that. I mean I still loved him.

Speaker 2 (02:37:40):
Did you ever do anything else to try to help him?

Speaker 1 (02:37:55):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (02:37:56):
What was that?

Speaker 1 (02:38:00):
Before I moved back to California? I gave him a
pamphlet that I found. There was a sack of them
that I found in a mall, and I picked up
a few of them because it was about mental health services.
I don't remember what the name of it was. It
had an eight hundred number, and it also had a

(02:38:21):
six oh two number, and might've had other phone numbers
and a website. I don't remember exactly what it was,
but it looked like they were services that were complimentary,
or maybe not free but cheap or affordable or something
to that effect. I thought maybe he could just talk
to some people. I thought it was confidential, and some

(02:38:44):
somebody you could talk to that would be able to
counsel him, or that had a degree in psychology or
some kind of certification in mental health councilor oh could.

Speaker 2 (02:38:56):
So was this and January two thousand and eight that
you found this brochure.

Speaker 1 (02:39:01):
No, it was closer to somewhere in mid to late March.
It was before then.

Speaker 2 (02:39:09):
Okay, how did he react when you gave him this
brochure or pamphlet?

Speaker 1 (02:39:18):
He was upset, we were. It led to an argument.
We had. We argued about several subjects that day.

Speaker 2 (02:39:27):
When you say an argument, was this verbal or was
this physical?

Speaker 1 (02:39:34):
It started off verbal. And then.

Speaker 2 (02:39:39):
Now you mentioned him grabbing your wrists at conference, And
now we're talking about this incident in March two thousand
and eight. Had he been physically abusive with you before
March of two thousand and eight?

Speaker 1 (02:40:00):
It was in April, and yes, he was physically abusive
before that.

Speaker 2 (02:40:04):
Well, let's talk about that. This after he grabbed you
at the convention. When was the next time that he
was physical with you?

Speaker 1 (02:40:20):
It would have been that argument the night that I
got up to lead twice three times ultimately.

Speaker 2 (02:40:26):
When he wouldn't let you leave the room, when he
threw you down.

Speaker 1 (02:40:29):
He pushed me down, Okay when it really out and
some of his spit got in my face, and I mean,
he wasn't spitting on me, but as he was talking,
anybody slammed me on the floor at the foot of
his bed.

Speaker 2 (02:40:45):
What did he do after he slammed you on the
floor at the foot of his bed.

Speaker 1 (02:40:50):
Well, it startled me. It didn't hurt, but it startled me,
and so I kind of let out an unexpected sound.
I guess it could be best described as a yelp.
Sort of can't really explain it. It just was unexpected.
So it startled me, and then the impact and the
sound came out. And I think he misinterpreted because he said,
don't act like that hurts. He called me a bitch,

(02:41:12):
and he kicked me in the ribs and that hurt
for real. But he would to kick me again, and
I put my hand out and to block his foot,
and it clipped my hand and hit my finger, yes,
my left hand.

Speaker 2 (02:41:27):
Okay, So he kicked you once in the ribs and
he goes to kick you in the ribs again, and
you tried to stop him with your hand and he
kicks your finger right.

Speaker 1 (02:41:41):
Yes, on the second kick.

Speaker 2 (02:41:44):
What happened after that, I said.

Speaker 1 (02:41:47):
I screamed really loud. I think I yelled out my
finger or my hand or something to that effect.

Speaker 2 (02:41:54):
And what happened after you yelled it out.

Speaker 1 (02:41:57):
He stormed out of the room and left went downstairs.

Speaker 2 (02:42:02):
And what did you do?

Speaker 1 (02:42:07):
I s rolled over and sat up and stood up
and was holding my wrist. My finger was starting to
swell up. I couldn't hear Travis. I didn't know what
was going on. I just he was left very angry.
I was in the room. The bedroom door was open.
I kind of peeked around the bedroom door on the
landing and looked down the stairs, couldn't see anything. And

(02:42:29):
then the doorbell rang, and so I was listening at
the top of the stairs to see who it was.
I don't know who it was, but whoever it was,
he sent away, and so the front door shut and
then I heard him walk walking back on the tile.
And then I leaned my head back in and I
could hear him climb the stairs, and my anxiety shot

(02:42:51):
through the roof. I didn't know what kind of mood
he was in, or how he was gonna react, or
what he was intending to do. And he came in
and he seemed visibly more calm, and he could see
that I was holding my wrist and he wanted to
see my hand.

Speaker 2 (02:43:07):
Was he yelling at you? Was the did he was
he assaultive with you after we came back to the room. No,
what was his demeanor? Like?

Speaker 1 (02:43:18):
He was calmer, But when he first asked to see
my hand, I kind of pulled back a little, just
as a reaction, and then he said, let me see it.
But he said it kind of in a s uh
A snappy, stern way. So I didn't want to provoke
him anymore, so I just let him look at my hand.

Speaker 2 (02:43:38):
And you say, your hand, Is there a particular part
of your hand that was injured?

Speaker 1 (02:43:44):
Yes, m the uh ring finger on my left hand.

Speaker 2 (02:43:48):
The witch finger, the ring finger. Did you seek medical
attention for this injury?

Speaker 1 (02:43:55):
No? I didn't.

Speaker 2 (02:43:58):
Why not?

Speaker 1 (02:44:01):
I didn't have medical insurance for one? Uh two? I
was I was worried that, like maybe police would get
involved if I went down there, or if I I mean,
I guess I could have made up a story. But
Travis made a splint for my finger at his house
and I just stayed with that. It was swell. We
put ice on it, and he had like two little

(02:44:23):
or three little popsicle sticks that he broke so that
they were the length of my finger, and he'd tied
it onto my finger.

Speaker 2 (02:44:32):
I think it also has to be actually talked about.
Why you didn't get medical attention? Why did you call
the police?

Speaker 1 (02:44:39):
I would've never called the police on Travis.

Speaker 2 (02:44:41):
Why not?

Speaker 1 (02:44:43):
I was I couldn't imagine doing something like that.

Speaker 2 (02:44:48):
Why not?

Speaker 1 (02:44:49):
It would've felt like treachery. I I wouldn't have betrayed
him like I wouldn't have I would have loyal to him.

Speaker 2 (02:44:58):
Just mentioned the word loyalty. Do you give an awe
that he went through? What did you have to be
loyal too?

Speaker 1 (02:45:09):
Well? I looked at him as someone who had his
own issues that he was struggling with. And I didn't
see him as a bad person. I just saw him
as somebody who was conflicted and had issues, just like
everyone has issues. He just had different issues, and I
wanted him to get help. That was one of the

(02:45:30):
conditions we had made the day before. Of course, he
didn't want to say anything, and I promised him I
wouldn't say anything as long as you get help, of course,
and he said he would, And so I just couldn't
imagine doing anything to betray him.

Speaker 2 (02:45:45):
He splint he put on your finger. Well, let me
ask you, this was the finger broken, As best you
could tell I believe it was broken. Do you still
is that injury still visible on you today?

Speaker 1 (02:46:08):
I think so? It's crooked.

Speaker 2 (02:46:10):
Could you hold up your hand for us so we
could see your finger holded up? Jody, your hand? What
do you think about when you see that injury on
your hand? Chests stand? How do you feel when you

(02:46:32):
see that injury on your hand? Goes to a state
of mind? And battered women singom judge.

Speaker 1 (02:46:42):
May proceed.

Speaker 2 (02:46:49):
Jody, hold that finger up for us again? What do
you would you thick when you see that? Does that
remind you of it?

Speaker 1 (02:47:06):
It reminds me of the incident. I try not to
think about it.

Speaker 2 (02:47:11):
Try not to think about it.

Speaker 1 (02:47:12):
How about the incident?

Speaker 2 (02:47:16):
Why not?

Speaker 1 (02:47:18):
Because it's unpleasant?

Speaker 2 (02:47:19):
You scared when you think about that day.

Speaker 1 (02:47:21):
I don't go too far in my mind with it
because it's not very pleasant. It's a very negative experience.
And I wish I had handled it differently.

Speaker 2 (02:47:31):
What do you mean by that? Wish you handled it?

Speaker 5 (02:47:33):
DIFG.

Speaker 1 (02:47:37):
Sometimes I regret not making a record of these things,
and sometimes I regret not getting medical help because at
least it would have healed correctly, and maybe not. It
feels arthritic as opposed to any of my other joints.

Speaker 2 (02:47:59):
Oh, but it's you didn't want Travis to get in trouble, right?
Just me? Is it correct that you didn't want Travis
to get in trouble that's how you felt? How uh?

Speaker 1 (02:48:18):
I definitely didn't want him to get in trouble, and
I didn't want anything to know that that happened between us.

Speaker 2 (02:48:24):
Didn't want anyone to know that. Is that what you said?

Speaker 1 (02:48:26):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (02:48:28):
Cause you were embarrassed? Did he beat you up? Rights
meeting was introducing embarrassed?

Speaker 1 (02:48:36):
Stay?

Speaker 2 (02:48:37):
Were you embarrassed that he beat you up?

Speaker 1 (02:48:39):
I was. I was more like ashamed, a shame.

Speaker 2 (02:48:45):
You felt shame right that she did recrrect the shame
you felt was part of the reason that you didn't
want anyone else to know, right or just meaning? Were
you thrilled and happy that Travis beat you up?

Speaker 1 (02:49:04):
No?

Speaker 2 (02:49:05):
Did you want to shot from the rooftops?

Speaker 1 (02:49:09):
Definitely not?

Speaker 2 (02:49:10):
Why not?

Speaker 1 (02:49:13):
I just felt I guess embarrassment is an accurate word,
but I've just felt it was stronger than embarrassment. I
felt very ashamed, and I didn't want people to know
that we had this kind of drama in our relationship,
with this level of problems, and I also felt like
I used to judge women that would get into situations

(02:49:34):
like that.

Speaker 2 (02:49:34):
Oh it's it's completely irrelevant to Washington.

Speaker 1 (02:49:37):
So I used to think that women that were in
situations like that, but it was partially, if not equally,
their fault because they they kept staying there. And so
it was I went home and I thought I was
disgusted with myself. I felt like, great, now I'm one
of those people, Like I was thinking that I got

(02:50:01):
into this situation and here I am just staying and
that I had become that thing that I used to judge.

Speaker 2 (02:50:11):
You realized at this point in time you were one
of those people. Is that what your tongues?

Speaker 1 (02:50:18):
Yes, you said.

Speaker 4 (02:50:23):
Ladies and gentlemen, please be back in the jury room
by ten twenty five tomorrow morning. We will start promptly
at ten thirty. Please remember the admonition have a nice evening.

Speaker 1 (02:50:32):
You are excused