Day 18

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Of the Jury, the Defendant Hall Council, which your Norman.
You may continue with direct examination.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Morning, serious morning. When we ended the day yesterday, we
were talking about the time period in which you were
getting ready to move back to Ayreka, and you were
talking to us about uh, the BMW that was ruined

(00:39):
based on the U haul, and what we started to
talk about, what we're going to talk about is the
time period in which you moved out. Do you remember
the exact day that you pulled away from the U
haul from Mesa for the last time? Not the day,

(01:00):
but do you remember the day what took place?

Speaker 3 (01:05):
Yes, I had stayed the night at Travis's the night before.

Speaker 4 (01:07):
The U haul was parked down the street and around
the corner where there was room because now my car
was on a toe dolli and this time I got
a toe dolli that had all four wheels up instead
of towing one, since that the last time that didn't
work out. So after well, we hung out, we stayed
the night, we slept in a little bit, and then

(01:29):
I don't remember what started an argument that day, because
we argued several times that month, but we were arguing, and.

Speaker 3 (01:41):
I just remember I left crying.

Speaker 4 (01:42):
I didn't want to leave things that way, but I
knew that we'd he'd call me or i'd call him
and there would be apologies, cause that was always the cycle.
So I felt unsettled leaving things.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
That way, but you know, I just thought we'll talk
about it later because we were both too upset.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
So I left.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
I walked down the block, got into the.

Speaker 4 (02:03):
U haul truck and started to leave, and I thought,
I pulled up to the house one more time, just
to see, you know, if maybe, if anything, And I
called him and he came out on the front porch
and he came around to the side and we were
talking a little bit more. It seemed like things were
gonna go well, but then he was still upset, and

(02:23):
so then he let I was still crying, and he
went over to the front porch and he was going
to go inside, and I was watching him before I
pulled away, and he turned around and flipped me the
double bird and then walked in the house and shut
the door.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
So I just drove away crying, and you were crying
as you drove away. A pretty serious fight that day.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
It didn't turn violent that day, but yeah, it was, so.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
I want to show you what's being marked as Exhibit
four thirty nine.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
You could just.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
Reading that to yourself.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yes, what is that, ma'am? Uh an email I sent
to Travis before moving? Maybe I don't remember the day.
I think it was like, and.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
Was this before the last day he moved? It was
before the day you pulled?

Speaker 3 (03:23):
Yes, it was before I moved.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
What was the purpose of you sending this email?

Speaker 3 (03:30):
I had kicked around. Well, I knew and I knew
that I wanted to move, but I wasn't sure how
to tell Travis because he.

Speaker 4 (03:36):
Was kind of reactive sometimes whenever I made exertions of independence.
So he I I sent him that email to sort
of like just remind him that, you know, we're not
always going to be hanging out like this and doing
things like this. We're gonna move on and see other people,
marry other people, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Okay, after you pull away crying, you said he flipped
you the double bird. You're driving your Uhau with your
car on the back. Is that right?

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yes, my infinity on the back.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
Okay, when do you next receive car?

Speaker 4 (04:20):
I don't recall, but I would have called him Mary
would have called me. I do remember receiving contact from
him while I was in Hollister, California, staying at my
older house, sister's house.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
Would this have been the same day or the next day?

Speaker 3 (04:35):
Maybe, well, it might have been the next day.

Speaker 4 (04:38):
It was late at night, so I want to say
it was the next day, because I remember stopping in
southern California to meet with Gus Searcy. If I had
driven straight to Hollister, it would have I could have
made it there by the evening.

Speaker 3 (04:50):
I'm not sure where I slept. I know I slept
my U haul some nights.

Speaker 4 (04:53):
It took me a few days to get U there
because I made stops. But it would have been that
day or the next day.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Okay, when you backing up a little bit, when when
Travis slipped you off, were you mad? Were you sad?
How did you feel?

Speaker 3 (05:14):
It hurt my feelings? I just I didn't want to
leave things like that.

Speaker 4 (05:18):
He say we should never go to sleep angry at
each other, and so I kind of I saw it
like similarly of it. We were going to I'm leaving
the town, I'm leaving the state. Who knows where we're
going to see each other again? He wanted to go
do the Pacific Coast Highway and come up and see
why we can visit me there and do things there
that were on the list of a thousand places. So

(05:38):
that was sort of a tentative plan in the future,
and I would see him at prepay legal events, but
it was going to be a long period of time
that I wouldn't see him, and I didn't want to
leave it like that, even though we were.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Going to talk on the phone.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
Why did you care about.

Speaker 5 (05:56):
Leaving it like that?

Speaker 2 (05:57):
You had the surrendous fight. You had sex the night
before you had the rundous fight, right.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
If we didn't. I don't remember that night before, but
definitely the day of that I left.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
Okay, you had sex the day.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
Of this fight, yes, before the fight?

Speaker 2 (06:12):
Okay, what was the fight about?

Speaker 4 (06:16):
I don't recall the specifics, but there was a running
theme at that time about.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
She's descriving with the fight. What was this running theme
that you were fighting about?

Speaker 3 (06:30):
One was the pamphlet?

Speaker 6 (06:32):
What point did the relationship middle?

Speaker 2 (06:35):
And we were talking about the day she left Mason
moved to Rika. This is a very specific point in time.

Speaker 3 (06:43):
At your question.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
On the day you left Mason, the day Travis flipped
you off as a good boy. You had an argument, right, Yes,
you said there were running themes in your argument at
that point in your relationship, right, yes, during that month? Okay,
what were those running things?

Speaker 3 (07:08):
They were?

Speaker 4 (07:12):
He had come he had come clean and told me
about Lisa Andrews at that point, So I wasn't angry.

Speaker 7 (07:18):
I was just shocked, like I thought, I'm sorry, I
need to apologize to him, and I'm an object to defense.

Speaker 6 (07:28):
Counsel's out first, there's an objection.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
Yes, I'm going to roll in the objection.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
Let's not make comments.

Speaker 3 (07:36):
Ask the question and to sustain the objection.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Ask he told you about Lisa Andrews. Yes, this is
the first time you knew.

Speaker 3 (07:45):
About this, right Yah? Someone else had told me the
day before. I think it was in April at this
person and you.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
Were describing, were interrupted that you weren't angry with him?

Speaker 3 (08:03):
Nos, ex started evidence.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Were you angry with him when you found out he
was stating Lisa Andrews.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
No, I wasn't angry.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
How did you feel? Well?

Speaker 4 (08:17):
By that time I knew he was interested in Mimi.
I felt I felt really bad because I knew what
it was like when I found out that he was
seeing a bunch of girls on the side while I
was his girlfriend, And now he had a girlfriend, and
I was one of the girls that he was seeing.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
On the side that his girlfriend didn't know about. I
guess she didn't know about me. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
And you mentioned Maimie. Is that Mamie Hall?

Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yes, Mamie Hall. I think she said Marie Hall. Here
she goes by maybe.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
And you said at this time you knew he had
interest in miss Hall. Is that accurate?

Speaker 3 (08:55):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (08:57):
Is this at the same time that he was having
sex with you?

Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (09:04):
Why was it then okay with you to be having
sex with him when you knew he had this interest
in Miss Hall?

Speaker 3 (09:13):
Well, internally it didn't always feel okay, But it's kind
of like old habits die hard. We were still together physically,
so the opportunity was always there to act that way,
and obviously there's still some chemistry or attraction to a degree.

Speaker 4 (09:29):
And I knew it was unhealthy, but I wasn't making
healthy choices at that time, so I just continued.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
After, Well, let me ask you this before we move on.
When you were making these bad choices, and you said,
old habits die hard. Were you under the impression that
he was or was not having sexual activities with miss Hall?

Speaker 3 (09:53):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (09:54):
Definitely was my impression. Okay, they weren't together, was my impression.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
Okay. As it relates to you said, you and Travis
made a pledge, if I heard you correctly, not to
go to bed, not to go to bed angry at
each other. Is that what I heard?

Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah, that was one of his philosophies.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
Okay. So after this fight in when you were pulling
away or the day that you pulled away, did you
speak within that that evening then?

Speaker 3 (10:35):
I don't remember if it was that evening or the
next evening, but we did speak.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Okay, So you might have gone a bit angry one night.

Speaker 7 (10:43):
Huh.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
Yes, Well I wasn't angry. He might have gone wing, Okay.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
I was very sad when he calls you after all this,
you find out you know he's interested in another woman,
You know that he was dating yourself and another woman
at the same time he flips you off leaving his home.

(11:10):
It again begets the question, Jody, why pick up the
phone when he calls?

Speaker 6 (11:19):
Did she indicated that she wasn't sure she called him
or he called it?

Speaker 3 (11:22):
Right?

Speaker 6 (11:22):
I think she indicated she called him, restate your question
him on the phone.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
Well, he did text message.

Speaker 4 (11:30):
He did send me a text message. It was either
that night or the next. It was a very mean
text message. And in the text message he had a
lot of his facts screwed up. So I called him
to correct him.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
What was the this text message? And we'll get into
some of those later, Todavid. In terms of the subject matter,
what was he mad about?

Speaker 3 (11:53):
He was mad about the person who had inform me
about Lisa. He was mad about.

Speaker 4 (12:01):
He had got into my Gmail account because he had
my password, and he found instant messages between me and
a guy.

Speaker 3 (12:07):
Named Steve Carroll that I had started.

Speaker 4 (12:09):
Chatting with on LDS link up dot it's a Mormon
social networking site.

Speaker 3 (12:15):
And I don't remember. It was so long. He just
dusted My phone started beating, and it beated, beat, beat, beat, beat,
because all of.

Speaker 4 (12:22):
These text messages were coming through, and it was all
one single one that he typed out and sent and
it just comes through, broken up with X amount of
characters per text message.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
So you said something of interest there. You said, he
got into your Gmail account? How did he do that?
He had my before he texted you in April two
thousand and eight. You said he got into your email account? Right, yes,

(12:55):
how did it gain access to your email account in
April of two thousand.

Speaker 6 (12:58):
And eight, as facts that I have, but she hasn't
testified what it was.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
She just said, all right, God endured, Well.

Speaker 3 (13:05):
Let me answer the question. I gave him my Gmail
password and my Facebook password in October two thousand and seven.
Why it was a suggestion he threw out there for
us to rebuild trust.

Speaker 4 (13:18):
He gave me his MySpace password and Facebook password, and
I give him my Facebook and Gmail password. He originally
suggested that we exchange a password on each of our accounts,
and I said, I don't care, I'll give you two,
and he said okay.

Speaker 3 (13:29):
And I kind of regretted it as soon as I
said it, but we stuck with that.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
So it was too so, based on these concerns you
had in October that you've talked about about his being
unfaithful to you, a deal was struck where you were
you who had not been unfaithful to him, was to
give your passwords to him as well.

Speaker 3 (13:56):
I'm sorry I kind of got.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
Lost in two thousand and seven and October you're talking
about Earlier, you talked about how he You've got the
feeling he was being unfaithful to you, right, or that
happened during the course of your relationship.

Speaker 4 (14:11):
Well, I wouldn't have considered it unfaithful because we weren't
boyfriend and girlfriend.

Speaker 3 (14:15):
But his roommate came up to me and said, he see,
sorry's not.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
Being offered for the truth of the matter, asserted right.

Speaker 4 (14:24):
He told me that Travis was seeing other people and
it wasn't That wasn't a revelation to me because I
had assumed that maybe he was. I wondered if he
was still caring on the same behavior that he was. Well,
he and I were official, but he told me that
he's trying to date other people, whereas Travis was telling me,
I'm not dating anyone, but I occasionally.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
Go on dates with people, and occasionally he sleeps with people.

Speaker 4 (14:48):
So I didn't We weren't together, so I didn't feel
like it was my business to know about other aspects
of his life there. But at the same time, we
were trying to re establish trust between each other because
we weren't sure whether or not we were going to.

Speaker 3 (15:02):
Get back together and be exclusive or supposedly.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Exclusive, and this concern that he was dating and or
sleeping with other people that motivated you to give your
passwords to him. That was part of the deal that
was struck, is what I'm asking.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
Can you say that one more time?

Speaker 2 (15:21):
This information that mister Hapworth gave you about Alexander sleeping
with other people, that somehow wound up in you giving
your passwords to him.

Speaker 6 (15:35):
He was seeing other people, not sleeping with other people.

Speaker 8 (15:39):
Your question.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
He received information that Travis was dating and having sex
with other people.

Speaker 4 (15:46):
Right, Well, his roommate didn't say he was having sex
with people, but because that's what he was doing while
he was with me, I assumed that.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
That was the.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
Question. She said. You didn't say that based on that?
What did you assume that?

Speaker 3 (16:00):
I assume he was still caring on the same behavior
unless he had changed his ways.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Okay, so this information then, going back to my question,
said that ultimately then you wound up giving your passwords
to him, even though he was the one who was
being unfaithful. I know, unfaithful is not the right word.

(16:26):
He was the one.

Speaker 3 (16:27):
Yeah, we exchanged passwords.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
Why did you feel the need to give yours to him?
Is I guess my question.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
Because I wanted it to be an equal exchange.

Speaker 4 (16:39):
He was giving me two so well, originally it was
going to be one for one, but I throughout, sure,
I'll give you two, just so that he knows, like I,
you know, he can trust me, and so you know,
that's why we went.

Speaker 6 (16:51):
Up to two.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Oh. So after you pulled away, you say he's texting you.
He's angry about the fact that you're conversing with someone
named Steve Carroll. Is that correct? Yes? Okay, And so

(17:13):
you made if we interested you correctly? You made contact
with him because because him being mister Alexander, because he
had his facts wrong. Is that right?

Speaker 3 (17:24):
Yes, he did his facts wrong.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
Why would you care if mister Alexander had his facts wrong?

Speaker 4 (17:37):
I could tell by the text message that he was angry,
and I don't know why it still affected me, But
when when he got to that level, it wouldn't make
me feel good, and I would just start shaking and
get like.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
It's hard to describe. I would just feel.

Speaker 4 (17:54):
Some kind of trepidation or apprehension or I don't know,
fear is a little bit strong, but just.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
Unsettled.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
When he got mad at you, you said you would
visibly shake.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yes, well, not at the beginning of the relationship.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
But at this point in April of eight, if he
were to get mad at you, you would shake. Did
this begin? Did this shaking? Did that begin before or
after the beatings began?

Speaker 6 (18:33):
Misted?

Speaker 2 (18:35):
Did this begin before he slapped you in the face
or in the teeth?

Speaker 3 (18:42):
It was kind of like the jaw and neck area. Yes,
it began in the.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
Fall two thousand and seven, before he threw you down
and choked you, before he choked me. Yes, before he
broke your finger and kicked in the ribs. Yes, before
he pushed you down in the room. Wouldn't let you
leave and insulted your family.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
No, I think they were. They had already begun by
that point.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
Okay, so some of the physical contact it began, and
you actually got to a point in your relationship where
you would shake when he got angry. Is that what
you're telling us?

Speaker 4 (19:21):
Yeah, it was like my nerves. It's kind of like
a like how would uwaba shakes? You know, they just
kind of tremble a little.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
Bit, and you could observe yourself having this reaction in
April of two thousand and eight, even when You're miles
away from him in Hollister, California. Is that right? Yes?

Speaker 3 (19:47):
I was asleep in my and it woke me up
and I began to have that feeling.

Speaker 4 (19:53):
It starts like as a like a tingly uncomfortable, like nervous,
like your nerves starting to just get freed afraid.

Speaker 3 (20:01):
No afraid, My nerves were afraid, like just frazzled.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
What were the nervous about? What was going to happen?
You know?

Speaker 3 (20:12):
I remember now on that text message he was threatening to.
Oh girls, he was just threatening to. He was angry
because he.

Speaker 4 (20:22):
Wanted to know the name of the person that had
told me the information about Lisa. He misunderstood and thought
her name was Michelle. And he said, if you don't
tell me Michelle's last name, I'm gonna you know, I
don't know, he just said, I'm telling Oh yeah, he said,
I'm going to tell all your friends and family basically
about all the I can't remember how he characterized it,

(20:45):
but I think it was something like psycho.

Speaker 3 (20:47):
Things that you've done. And I didn't know what he
was talking about. And so, and first of all, what
her name Wasn't Michelle? He got that wrong? So I
called him back, and it was a very friendly phone call.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
I threatened him back, So you threatened it back? What
do you mean?

Speaker 4 (21:05):
I think the last part of his text message said
time to spit it out, and he was talking about
this girl he thought was Her.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
Name was Michelle. It was Marie, but not Marie. Hall
was Marie, and I was I what I said was
kind of mean. I was at that point.

Speaker 4 (21:21):
I just the way we left, and now he's waking
me up in the middle of the night with a
whole bunch of text messages. They're all unkind, he's threatening me.
I just felt like he was being a complete bully
at that point, and I was tired of being bullied.
So I called him up and I said after he
said time to spit it out, and he just felt
like like he was trying to reach through the phone

(21:42):
and still exert control over me, and it was and
I'm at my sister's house and I'm sleeping, so it
just I think I just got fed up and I
called up.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
And I said, what did you say?

Speaker 3 (21:52):
It was really mean.

Speaker 4 (21:53):
I said, the only thing I'm gonna be spitting out
is the fact that you're a pedophile with a past
and something like that, and I was saying, I don't know.
At the time, I characterized what I saw as child pornography,
but it I realized it wasn't child pornography. It was
just a picture of a young boy. So I think
I said something to that effect and he got very quiet.

Speaker 2 (22:20):
Did that then end the conversation?

Speaker 4 (22:25):
No, I felt really bad about it, So if my
tone turned softer, cause I didn't like to snap at him.
Usually it turned really bad when I snapped at him,
but this time he got he was a little bit
more humble, and he went back to this Michelle character
that I said. Her name wasn't Michelle, was Marie. And
I didn't know that Mami went by Marie. So he

(22:45):
was worried about Marie who and I described her, and
I don't know. It wasn't mur It wasn't mur that
same Marie, and so.

Speaker 3 (22:56):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (22:57):
We just talked it out eventually, and I don't remember
how it ended, but I think it ended up like
I was more apologizing to him. It always seemed that way,
like our arguments.

Speaker 3 (23:08):
Would always end up with me apologizing more. And I
felt bad for saying that too.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Okay from Hollister then where do you go do? Is
this where you meet mister searously to go back up
to Wayreka? Could you just explain that to us.

Speaker 4 (23:25):
I think I met mister Sears in southern California and
then drove to Hollister and stayed there one night, maybe
two nights, but I think it was just one night,
and then hit the road and went all the way
to Rika.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
And at that point in time, then you began this
is when you moved into your grandparents house from what
you're telling us before, right, yes, Okay, Now you are
hours away.

Speaker 3 (23:52):
From Travis, right, yeah, about a thousand miles.

Speaker 2 (23:55):
You talked earlier about how you felt like he could
reach through the phone and grab you. Did you feel
any differently with a few more days and a few
more hundred miles behind you?

Speaker 3 (24:16):
It was a gradual process. But I started feeling after
I moved to Wuyrika, like this cloud was lifting off
of me. I don't know what kind of cloud, just
maybe I wasn't seeing things clearly while I was.

Speaker 4 (24:24):
In Mesa or I was very depressed. I was suicidal
during that time, and I wasn't feeling that way. Then finally,
when I went to Wureka. I enjoyed spending time with
my grandparents.

Speaker 3 (24:36):
They're not getting any younger, and so I liked the
time that I was spending with them and my little
brother and sister.

Speaker 4 (24:42):
So I'll just the associate association with family. I was enjoying,
and my photography business began to really take off well.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
I had a lot of weddings booked. I didn't end
up getting to shoot those weddings, but.

Speaker 4 (24:56):
Other portraits and things. The market was pretty open there
for the taking.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
Okay, you were happier there, and why Rica.

Speaker 3 (25:08):
I was still depressed, but I felt better than I
did in my son.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
You say, still depressed, depressed about.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
What it was, still up and down with Travis.

Speaker 4 (25:20):
So I would feel down at times and then up,
and then sometimes I would do something to piss him
off and he would say, send more mean text messages
or emails or chatting or something like that. So I
didn't like that because I knew that I would still
have to see him in the future as far as
at prepaid legal events, and I wanted us to be

(25:41):
able to be friends. I wanted us to be able
to show up at these events with our own respective
spouses and be happy for each other.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
I was friends with my previous axes, and I wanted
it to remain.

Speaker 2 (25:51):
That was that this desire to remain friends and the
fact that you might seem at prepaid legal event, is
that the motive behind continuing any kind of relationship with him?

Speaker 4 (26:06):
Well, maybe partly, but it was more the fact that
I still had feelings for him, and I still wasn't
making the.

Speaker 3 (26:12):
Best choices for myself, and so I would still.

Speaker 4 (26:14):
Call him, I would still answer calls when he called me,
and we just continued almost the same thing, except from partway.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
Okay, we heard yesterday a recording of a could only
really be characterized, or the bulk of it anyway, as
a phone sex conversation that you recorded on May tenth.

(26:47):
Were you having other of similar chats of a similar
nature with mister Alexander When you move.

Speaker 3 (26:55):
Back to why we had did, yes, that's when you started.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
To how often did they occur?

Speaker 4 (27:05):
I can only think of three other times other than
that one, and then, prior to moving it, it only
happened one time.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
Now, you mentioned earlier this desire to be friends and
that your families might spend time together and that sort
of thing. Why talk about subjects that we heard on
the phone call. Why talk about those? Why not just

(27:36):
leave it at talk about prepaid, legal or mutual?

Speaker 3 (27:40):
Actually I liked it. It wasn't about the sex. It
was more about I mean, I wasn't having sex, but
it was more about he was very nice to me.

Speaker 4 (27:49):
He was complimentary, He said nice things, even when they
were explicit, they were still complimentary towards me, And he
was there were times when he was very mean, and
then he would be nice, and I just I craved
the nice from him rather than I dreaded the meme.
So when he was nice, I liked to I tried
to prolong it so that it would last longer.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
The nice the nice do you got from the sex?
So you tried to make the phone sex cause last longer.
Is that what you're telling us?

Speaker 3 (28:24):
Yeah? I wanted to draw it out some so that
it wasn't just you know, like wambam and then hang up, so.

Speaker 4 (28:32):
That it was actually a long We used to have
long conversations and they were pleasant and it wasn't sex.

Speaker 3 (28:39):
The topic of sex might have been broached, but it
wasn't phone sex.

Speaker 4 (28:42):
And so now it seemed like he would be very
nice to me, but then it would always lead to that,
or he wanted it to lead to that. So at
times like the one that we that you heard yesterday,
was he wanted me to get on the phone and
start talking to him. And we had already sort of
had that top come up that prior, just prior to

(29:03):
that phone call, minutes before that phone call, and so
I knew that that that's what that phone call would
be about.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
So I did call him knowing that that's what.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
It would be.

Speaker 4 (29:12):
But he was being very very nice online, and I
hoped and that he would continue being ice to me
on the phone.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
And we're talking May of two thousand.

Speaker 3 (29:26):
And eight, right, Yes, that one would have been May tenth.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
But these other calls were they Was this the one
we heard yesterday? Was this the last of these calls?
Was it the first of these calls?

Speaker 3 (29:40):
No, it was probably the third. Well there was the
one the day after we broke up. I don't know
how much. I've never done that before, So I was
just kind of listening and trying to say some things.
I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
The phone call you were just describing for us, that
was the first incidence you'd had phone sex with him.
This is before you moved back to Areka, right.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
I was in Big sur that day, and I guess
it was phone sex.

Speaker 2 (30:07):
I got this same Let's talk about the calls in
my rika when you moved back in April in May
of two thousand and eight. How many phone sex conversations
did you have with him during that time period?

Speaker 4 (30:22):
I believe there were two prior to the one during
that time period. There were two prior to the one
that was played yesterday and then one hour.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
What other things you mentioned? Your photography business starting to
pick up. Did you have a job when you moved back.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
Not right away. I was putting in applications everywhere. There
weren't many.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
Did you also, was your mind open to the ideas
of data.

Speaker 4 (30:56):
It wasn't on my mind, so I can't say if
I wasn't cond just closed off to the idea, but
it wasn't something I was seeking.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
If you were dating another individual at that time, would
you have felt like you were betraying mister Alexander.

Speaker 4 (31:10):
I don't know, because we prior to that, I would
have felt that way, but at this point in our
relationship I probably would have felt more like I was
betraying the other person. I don't think I would date
anybody else, at least on any serious level. Maybe I'm mononymous,
so if Travis and I aren't technically together, but I

(31:31):
would have had to have cut that off if I
were to go forward with somebody else.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
During this time period. Was there I know you mentioned
chatting with a man, a gentleman on LDS link up.
Were there any other individuals to which you had an
interest in at that point in time in your life?

Speaker 3 (32:01):
Yeah, there were a few other people.

Speaker 4 (32:02):
And we didn't chat on Elia's linkup. We just we
chatted on Gmail, but we met on Elda's linkup. There
was another guy that I w T was beginning to
talk to at the beginning of two thousand eight on
LDS link up as well.

Speaker 3 (32:14):
His name was Sam Schultz. And I wasn't sure where
anyway I might get off the topic. Sorry, but.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Well, let let me ask you this. What about Ryan Burns?
What was your relationship with him?

Speaker 3 (32:26):
Okay, I didn't really have a relationship with Ryan.

Speaker 4 (32:31):
What happened was I got a text message from Zion,
another person in the business.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
And out of the blue, he asked, He asked me,
what's up? In Spanish?

Speaker 4 (32:43):
Was texting meet and I texted him back and he
asked me where I was. I texted him back and
told him why Rica, And then he said, you need
to come out to Utah. There's some people I'd like
you to meet. And I thought people means plural, so
I said who? And he texted me back and said,
I found your husband, and I wanted to know who
he was.

Speaker 3 (33:03):
So I think I joked about the future. I said,
I think I said vister Arias as a joke, and.

Speaker 4 (33:10):
He didn't tell me, but he started giving me. I
asked him for clues. He started give me clues. He
said things about his accomplishments in the business, and I
had just been on a conference call with somebody with
Ryan Burns as the speaker, and so it matched, and
so I thought probably not him, but I wasn't sure,
and so I think I asked him how many letters

(33:31):
does his first name have? And he thought that was
funny he told me for so I'm like, okay, that
matches things like that. We just went back and forth
until I finally text him. I said, I think I
know who he is, and he asked if he'd give
me if he could give the guy my phone number
and I said yes, and so I think it was
the next day or maybe that same day that Ryan
called me.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
And what period of time would this have been? Would
this have been May or April, as you recall, I
don't recall.

Speaker 4 (34:02):
I think it would have been April because I remember
texting Zion and saying, make sure you don't edify me
as a blonde, because I hame a burnette now because
I had dyed my hair before moving out of Mesa.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
You dyed your hair before moving out of Mesa. And
just so we're clear, is this in April two thousand
and eight or before April of two thousand and eight?
You said you?

Speaker 3 (34:25):
Actually, I think it was late March. I don't remember that.

Speaker 4 (34:28):
The only reason I remember those dates is because I
used to have Dayton timestamp photos.

Speaker 3 (34:31):
I guess I still do on the hard drive.

Speaker 4 (34:33):
But I remember the last Super Saturday that I went
to was sometime in late March because it was after convention,
and I waited until after Convention to dye my hair,
and I showed up at Convention with dark hair and
a few blonde highlights.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
Judge, this might be a good time for the recess,
or I can perceive, all right?

Speaker 1 (34:54):
Ladies and gentlemen, when twenty five the jury room, please
remember the ammunition you are executed.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
Okay, thank you, miss Arius. Before we uh pick up

(35:25):
again and speak about your relationship with mister Burns, I'd
like you to take a look at Exhibits four forty
and four forty one, and actually let me say four
forty for the time being, and let me see if
you recognize this.

Speaker 5 (35:54):
Yes, all right, and what does exhibit number four for you?

Speaker 4 (36:01):
These are text messages sent between Travis and I dated
well it says it stated from two one o six to.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
Six six eight, And you recognize those as being those
text messages.

Speaker 4 (36:17):
Yes, these are all the text messages, well not all
of them, some were deleted, but the ones that were recovered,
these are the text messages between us.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
And as best you can recall. Are the times correct?

Speaker 4 (36:29):
Actually, no, the time is seven hours off. It's seven
hours ahead.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
Okay, thank you, Saraus.

Speaker 5 (36:36):
Now we began or we ended this morning.

Speaker 2 (36:48):
With talking about Brian Burns, and I believe you were
just telling us how Missus's brothers Ion I told you
he found your future husband and that sort of thing.
And I think we're at the point in time where

(37:09):
Ryan was gonna call you or you received a call
from him.

Speaker 3 (37:12):
Right, Yes, I received a call from him one time
when I was walking out in.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
A Rica, Okay. And had you recalled meeting mister Burns before.

Speaker 3 (37:27):
I recall? I think he recalled more than I recalled.

Speaker 4 (37:31):
The only thing I remember about him is I saw
him in Oklahoma City in two thousand and eight. He
didn't seem very approachable, not because of his manner but
because what good questions?

Speaker 2 (37:44):
Yes, did you describe your impressions of him when you
met him?

Speaker 3 (37:49):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (37:51):
Here he was surrounded by a lot of people, So
I don't know if I made my way up to
him and introduced myself, or if he made his way
over to my side of the room and then we
just produced to feat ourselves to each other.

Speaker 3 (38:02):
I can't remember that. I just remember it was at
a gathering with some people that were on Team Renew And.

Speaker 4 (38:10):
Then also on Saturday night of the convention, a bunch
of us piled into a limousine intro.

Speaker 6 (38:18):
Yes, she was asked about her repression.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
What happened.

Speaker 4 (38:23):
The only other thing I remember about Ryan and Oklahoma
City is that we all piled into a limousine together
I wouldn't even have remembered he was there, except when
I reviewed my pictures later he was in one of
the pictures inside the limo.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
Okay, so it sounds like that mister Loveinger was attempting
to play matchmaker between you and Ryan Burns. Is that
fair to say? Yes? Okay? And were you open to dating?

(38:58):
How did you feel about it? Would you feel like
you were betraying Travis if you dated Ryan? Can you
just kind of explain your mindset to us?

Speaker 4 (39:06):
Yes, I wouldn't have felt like I was betraying Travis,
but I was worried about how Travis would react. So
I asked Zion in one of my text messages, and
not that you would, but please don't tell Travis about this.
He's a good friend, but in order for this to
have any chance, he shouldn't know about it. And Zion

(39:27):
texted me back and said he shall not know.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
And why were you concerned or what gave you concern
if mister Alexander were to know about you perhaps dating
or speaking with mister Barnes.

Speaker 4 (39:49):
Well, it had been a pattern of Travis's since before
we dated, that he didn't take kindly.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
To me going on dates with other guys and throughout well.

Speaker 4 (39:59):
I didn't go into so the other guys while we
were together, but even after we broke up, I went
on another date with John Dixon and that didn't go
well at all when he found out, when Travis found out.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
And then.

Speaker 4 (40:13):
There was another guy that I went on a date
with and he teased me about him forever after.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
Almost and also when we had that big fight in
his bedroom the week that I was moving, that's when
I told him.

Speaker 4 (40:26):
About this guy, Steve Carroll that I was text messaging
or chatting with, and that erupted. So I just didn't
want to hear it from him. I knew he was
a thousand miles away and he couldn't hurt me, but
it still hurt my feelings when he screamed and yelled,
and it was a headache and it was drama, and
I just wanted things to be peaceful between us, even.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
Though you were a thousand miles away. Let me ask
you this, were there occasions during this period of time
where Travis yelled at you on the phone? Yes, did
you do the shaking that you spoke?

Speaker 1 (41:01):
I probably did?

Speaker 2 (41:03):
Okay, Now, how did your from your understanding when you
were having these phone conversations with mister Burns. Where did
he live?

Speaker 3 (41:16):
My understanding was that he was in West Jordan, Utah.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
So you're not You're thousands of miles away. That is
this a relationship that thrives over the telephone text message?
Describe that for us.

Speaker 3 (41:29):
We began talking, there weren't there weren't any major fireworks.
He was nice. We just talked back and forth for
a little while, nothing ultra flirty, and then it sort
of tapered off for some days, maybe a week or so.

Speaker 4 (41:40):
I I think it was like almost a week, and
then he he he texted me again out of the blue,
and I explained him, well, I I texted you a
few times. He didn't answer, so I kind of thought
maybe he lost interest. And then he explained that he
was camping and he didn't have cell phone reception, and
as a joke, he was saying things like lover, how could.

Speaker 3 (41:59):
That have happened? And all these nice text messages, and
I thought, okay, well he does like me. He just
was out of selfing range. So we sort of picked
up again and began talking somewhere, began talking.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
Now I know you were hundreds of miles away, and
you're not seeing each other. But in terms of the relationship,
was this a romantic relationship a prospective romantic relationship?

Speaker 3 (42:31):
I would say a prospective romantic relationship.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
I wanna show you what's been marked as Exhibit to eighty.
Do you recognize that?

Speaker 3 (42:46):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (42:47):
What is that?

Speaker 3 (42:48):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (42:49):
That's a text message that Ryan sent to me when
we were a text message.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Is there a background to that text message that was
related to a conversation.

Speaker 3 (42:59):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (42:59):
Eventually we talked about meeting and it would make more
sense for me to go out there because there's more
to do in Utah by far than there is why Rika.
Plus there are national parks and other things surrounding the
area he lived, So we were gonna I was gonna
go out there and hang out so that we could
get to know each other.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
No judge of five may approach it, right, miss Areas.
I'm gonna show you what's the hard is Exhibit three
ninety two. Can you look at that and tell us
if you recognize that?

Speaker 3 (43:32):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (43:33):
I do. What is that?

Speaker 4 (43:34):
It's a text message Travis sent to me immediately after
another one he sent to me.

Speaker 8 (43:41):
And I moved to a man Exhibited three ninety two.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
How do I have an objection?

Speaker 3 (43:48):
Three? You need two ex epited?

Speaker 2 (43:50):
Can you see the date on there? Miss aias yes,
and I see zero five zero two? What does that denot?

Speaker 3 (44:01):
May second? That would've been two thousand eight, two.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
Thousand eight, And how can you be sure it was
two thousand eight.

Speaker 3 (44:07):
I didn't get my heliophone until April two thousand eight,
and that's on my helio And.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
The text message says, send me some pictures. I wanna
see you right now.

Speaker 5 (44:18):
What does that mean?

Speaker 3 (44:21):
He had just sent me.

Speaker 4 (44:24):
A much longer text message talking about alluding to the
little red riding Hood thing that he wanted to do
and the pictures that he wanted to take the same
thing we were talking about on the tape that you
heard yesterday, And he wanted me to take phone pictures
of myself and send him to him right.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
Then, phone pictures of yourself, like the pictures of your face.

Speaker 3 (44:51):
Well, explicit photographs?

Speaker 2 (44:56):
What do you mean explicit?

Speaker 3 (45:00):
Maybe new like sexually explicit?

Speaker 8 (45:04):
Was he specific as request?

Speaker 3 (45:08):
That was the only I think that was the only
request that I remember on that.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
Day, just an a a sexually explicit picture? Correct?

Speaker 3 (45:21):
Well, he said pictures plurally okay.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
And you said this was also related to a discussion
of Uh. A, I believe you said little red riding
hood fantasy? Is that right?

Speaker 3 (45:36):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (45:38):
Uh? Is that the fantasy we heard described yesterday on
the tape?

Speaker 3 (45:44):
Yes, that's what it was alluding.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
So on previous it this tape recorded call that we
listened to yesterday. Had he alluded to that fantasy previously?
Or was that the first time he brought it with you?

Speaker 4 (46:01):
No, I first learned about it and early, well early
in our friendship in two thousand six.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
He brought it up in two thousand six. Yes, I
wanna show you if I may approach Earnner.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
Uh, what's in market is the three ninety one Give
me a favor and take a look at this exhibit
to see if you recognize.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
Yes, and what is it?

Speaker 4 (46:40):
It's the longer text message on that same day, right
before the one you just showed me.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
Oh, was it when you were referring to moments ago?

Speaker 3 (46:48):
Uh? Yes, I moved to the name of who you ninety.

Speaker 2 (46:51):
One get Outtrackshi?

Speaker 6 (46:57):
Did anyone is admitted?

Speaker 2 (47:01):
And so we're clear mysterious before we begin to discuss this, Uh,
in your recognition of this was this? We have different
pictures of it. But was this part of one long
text message?

Speaker 3 (47:15):
Yes it was.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
And five two that we see there. We're talking also
May second, Yes, same day and two thousand eight, Yes, okay.
He says that this photoshoot is gonna be one of
the best experiences of your life and his, and he

(47:39):
talks about all the pictures he's gonna take of you.
Was this this doesn't mention little red ridinghood? So I
just wanna be clear. Is this what we're talking about? Yes?

Speaker 4 (47:53):
We That was the only photoshoot kind of thing that
was planned at that time that was of the nature
that he's referring to.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
In this okay, And he says the progressiveness of it,
from the very clean to the very dirty and everything
in between. What did that mean to you?

Speaker 4 (48:16):
The same thing that he explained further in the tape
was that he wanted to get different angles, different shots, different.

Speaker 3 (48:24):
Position.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
He says, a day that has not gone by that
I haven't damped about driving my shaft and hard end
to you? Is that a reference to to your understanding?
Is that a reference to what we talked about or
what we heard on the tape when he talked about
zip tying you to a tree.

Speaker 4 (48:44):
I hadn't heard about that because this is the second
of May, and the conversation was on the tent, so
I didn't hear about the the zip tying to the
tree until that conversation occurred.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
But presumably in the forest.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
He references in this email, I have no desire to
think of anyone else in my scandalous fantasies. It is
a reference to little river ridinghood or is there a
reference to other fantasies thy th? To your understanding, My.

Speaker 4 (49:20):
Understanding is that he's saying he's not he doesn't want
to fantasize it about anyone else except me.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
But he said that to a lot of girls.

Speaker 2 (49:27):
So okay, mit, you found out that, uh, when he
was dating you, he was dating Lisa Andrews and Mimi
Home right.

Speaker 3 (49:40):
Like wouldn't say we're dating, but I guess we acted
like that.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
Okay, you're right, I should say when you were having
sex with him, he was dating those two other girls, right, Yes, Okay.
He talks in here and in the tape about fantasizing
about you and getting himself off on many occasions. To

(50:07):
your understanding, is that a reference to him being by himself,
or a reference to these phone calls, this phone sex
you were having with him.

Speaker 3 (50:15):
I assumed it was a reference to by himself.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
He also says in this message, you are the ultimate
slot in bed. What did that mean to you? Is
there some history behind that?

Speaker 3 (50:29):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (50:32):
What's that history?

Speaker 3 (50:34):
Sometimes he would call me that when we were.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
Is that one of those things that made you feel special?
Or how did you feel when he would refer to
you as a slot in bed?

Speaker 4 (50:48):
Well, he wasn't saying it as an insult, so I
just felt. I don't really remember how I felt, but
I just knew that that he was enjoying himself.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
He says he wants to send one down your throat
and another on your face. What did that mean to you?

Speaker 3 (51:17):
Oral sex and.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
Ejaculating in you?

Speaker 3 (51:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (51:23):
Yes. He also says, You're gonna get taken like you
have never been taken before. What did that mean to you?

Speaker 3 (51:38):
M We were always trying to top ourselves, like go
a little bit farther than the last time, and usually
he could come up with some creative ideas. So m
most of the time I was game board.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
Most of the time you were what game? Mkay? But
how about feeling like you've been raped, you enjoyed every
delightful moment of it. Did you wanna feel like you
were raped? Uh? No, Sure, so you're accurate here. He

(52:16):
also says you'll rejoice in being a whore. That sole
purpose in life is to be mine, to have animal
sex with, and to please me in any way I desire.
Was it your ultimate goal in life to be mister
Alexander's core? No, Based on what you said before, you

(52:41):
were interested in the fond and affectionate feelings you got
from him, being happy, right, certainly not being as poor.

Speaker 3 (52:52):
Well, I mean that wasn't like how I would've put it.

Speaker 2 (52:55):
But if that's that's how he put it, right.

Speaker 3 (53:02):
Well, I mean sometimes I wouldn't enjoy like being with him.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
So were you willing at this point in time in
your life, in May second two thousand eight, to have
animalistic sex with.

Speaker 3 (53:17):
Him, probably.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
And please him in any way he desired?

Speaker 3 (53:30):
Well, there would have been some limits, but mostly and.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
This was after still after the abuse, and after you'd
moved away, you were still willing to do this for Travis,
if that's what he wanted, right, You were still willing
to be tied to a tree, if that's what he wanted?
Is that fair to say?

Speaker 3 (53:56):
I'm not sure I would have gone for that, but
I like him entertain the idea.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
He also asks or talks about him doing anything that
you want him to do in this part of the
text message, can you see that?

Speaker 3 (54:16):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (54:17):
Were you gonna ask him to tie you to a tree?

Speaker 3 (54:20):
No?

Speaker 2 (54:20):
Not that. Were you gonna ask him to ejaculate down
your throat and on your face?

Speaker 3 (54:28):
I don't know that I would've asked, but I probably
would have gone for something.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
He didn't really have interest in. Mister Alexander's that quote
unquote sex slave?

Speaker 7 (54:38):
Did you.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
No?

Speaker 3 (54:40):
I didn't look at him like that.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
Did you want him to be designed for your most
vile and lustful pleasure? No?

Speaker 3 (54:57):
I don't.

Speaker 4 (54:58):
I don't think any of my pleasures revile, but maybe
less fool and I don't k didn't expect him to
be designed for that?

Speaker 8 (55:05):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (55:15):
Why?

Speaker 9 (55:16):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (55:16):
And this was happening within a day or so of
you having conversations or text messages with mister Burns, and
it sounds like there's a glow, there was a butdding.
I think we use the words budding romantic Uh interest
with mister Burns. Why given this budding romantic interest. Are

(55:43):
you still entertaining mister Alexander's interest?

Speaker 4 (55:51):
I still had feelings for Travis, and it was just
something that we were familiar with, comfortable with, and I
think the comfort came from the familiarity, and it's just
something we continued to do.

Speaker 2 (56:09):
Mkay. Before we move from this time period of your life,
I wanna show you what's been marked Exhibit four thirteen,
four fourteen, and four fifteen and andered O may bus

(56:32):
you may do you remember seeing those photos previously? Could
you explain this photo to us when it was taken
around I'm s oh, I'm sorry. This is Exhibit four fifteen.

Speaker 4 (56:51):
I believe that was taken on Main Main Street or Broadway.
I I think it was uh Oregon Street. It was
taking on Orgon Street in Wayrika, right up front of
her dad's office.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
And her who is that my friend Heather? Okay? And
when was that taken?

Speaker 3 (57:17):
It would have been after I moved to Wayrika. I
don't remember the exact date. Sometime in the spring, I think.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
And your hair there, I'll let you describe the color.
What color would you describe that?

Speaker 3 (57:30):
Ass? I would just say various shades of brown, medium,
to dark.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
Okay, light to dark. Let me show you what's been
marches Exhibit four thirteen. Was that with you in the photograph?

Speaker 3 (57:47):
It's my little sister.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
Do you remember when this was taken?

Speaker 3 (57:53):
We were laying on my bed and just goofing off
and we're on my pillow and just took pictures.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
Do you remember when.

Speaker 3 (58:02):
After I moved to Wyrica? That's not my grandparents?

Speaker 2 (58:06):
Was this around the time of your phone call with
mister Alexander.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
It would have been somewhat contemporary.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
You said a few disparaging things about your sister. And
during that phone call, what did you mean by that?
You said she was stupid? Can you explain?

Speaker 3 (58:26):
Yeah, I wasn't aware at the time that she she
had a drug addiction, and she was an alcoholic, and
she was only seventeen, and she was also coming out
of an abusive relationship that she was hiding from.

Speaker 4 (58:42):
The whole family. So I didn't know any of those
three problems. So I thought her behavior was a little off.
She was kind of out of it most of that time,
So I thought that's just how she was because I
wasn't aware that she hadn't those problems, okay.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
And it appears to me in this photograph, I would describe, Uh,
the hair color is very shades of brown. Is that
what you would say? Yes, let me show you what's
Exhibit four fourteen. Do you remember when this was taken?

Speaker 3 (59:19):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (59:20):
When was this taken?

Speaker 3 (59:23):
In the spring? Also two thousand eight.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
What is that with you in the photograph?

Speaker 3 (59:28):
That's my parents' dog.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
Her name is Jule, And it appears your hair is
brown in these photographs.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
Yeah, it's goes kind of from maybe dark blonde or
light brown to to dark brown.

Speaker 2 (59:48):
When did you dye your hair brown?

Speaker 4 (59:53):
I don't remember the exact day, but it's in text
message else it was while I was stealing me.

Speaker 2 (01:00:04):
Moving back to or forward for a minute to June fourth,
Earlier we saw photographs of you with brown hair, or
excuse me, on June fourth, we saw pictures of you
and brown hair earlier in the earlier in this triumph?

(01:00:25):
Did you change your hair color from this photograph until
the time you got to Travis's house.

Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
I'm trying to remember, cause I dyed my hair twice
and the first time it didn't take.

Speaker 4 (01:00:45):
That was a mesa, so I did it again, but
it was already dyed by then because it was not
that dark until.

Speaker 3 (01:00:54):
The second time.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
So mkay, eat in go blonde.

Speaker 3 (01:01:02):
I wouldn't have been able to go back to blonde.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
Why not?

Speaker 4 (01:01:08):
Well, I had been a platinum blonde for about almost
five years at that point, so as you can see,
my natural hair color is pretty dark. And when you
strip away all that hair color, the shaft of the
hair is it changes it. I don't know exactly no
cause I'm not a I'm not a cosmetologist, but it

(01:01:31):
it changes the hair shafts. So when you deposit die
on to the hair again, it it not only takes,
but it sucks it up like even more so, it's
now almost like it's stained in a way that you
can't really remove it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:42):
I heard that you could actually strip it back to.

Speaker 4 (01:01:44):
Blonde, but by doing that to my hair of what
it was, I wouldn't have really had hair left. It
would've just broken off and fallen out, so.

Speaker 3 (01:01:53):
It stayed dark.

Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
Fore it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Serious. I intervertently gave either a wrong exhibit earlier. I'm
gonna now hand you if I'm an approach runner yea
with exhibits four oh seven and four twenty three. I'm
gonna ask you if you recognize these exhibits.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
Yes, I would recognize them.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
Mkay.

Speaker 8 (01:02:44):
You mentioned just a all.

Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
Da Uh you dyed your hair brown in Mesa and
that there was reference to that in one of the
text messages. Would it refresh your recollection to take a
look at these exhibits and uh determine if such a

(01:03:13):
text was in there?

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
Well, I'll look for it. It's not, it's not really
in order. Okay, I think I found it.

Speaker 6 (01:03:40):
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
And having re refreshed your recollection with that document, Uh,
when did you dye your hair brown?

Speaker 6 (01:03:51):
Well, it says three that's a refresh recollection. She could
just give us a day.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
If you could advise us what day, based on looking
at that you dyed.

Speaker 8 (01:04:04):
Your hair back to brown.

Speaker 3 (01:04:06):
Yes, I would say it was on three twenty eight,
but it says three twenty one.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
Can you approach Yeah, based on your review of the document,
I'm telling us what the document said. But based on
your review of the document, what day did you dye
your hair from blonde to burnette?

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
It would have been in the evening on the twentieth
of March.

Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
Okay, and since that time you've never gone back to blonde?
Is that correct?

Speaker 3 (01:04:49):
Nope? I haven't well.

Speaker 4 (01:04:51):
This first time it didn't take very well, so I
did it one more time. It was like a I
don't know how to describe it, like a kind of
like a dirty brown. It was sort of medium round.
It's not what's going for.

Speaker 3 (01:05:02):
I wanted it darker.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
Alright. Now, we've spoken earlier about and some references have
been made to your communication with mister Alexander. It wasn't
just in pr person. It wasn't just by phone, uh verbally.

(01:05:27):
You also communicated through text messages and other forms of
internet chat. Is that correct?

Speaker 3 (01:05:35):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
In these so we have a better sense of your
relationship everything that led up to June two thousand eight.
Was he assertive and aggressive with you in these emails?
In these tech very much?

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
Authoritative?

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
Very much?

Speaker 3 (01:06:01):
What assertive? Aggressive and authoritative?

Speaker 2 (01:06:04):
Okay? Do you recall some of the things he said
to you in these text messages? And if you need
a moment to refresh your recollection, you certainly can't.

Speaker 3 (01:06:17):
You're not talking about the instant messages you're.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
Talking about right now. Let's talk about the text messages, okay,
without reading what he said, do you recall some of
the things he would call you?

Speaker 6 (01:06:31):
You could give a date, don't have to be the
time of the date and whatever she's going to say
that she's refreshed about.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
The objection to that jud she's her recollection of what.
She doesn't have to give a date and time just
to testify it's not an appropriate objection.

Speaker 6 (01:06:52):
An objection like a foundation.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
What does she give to date.

Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
Prior to indicating the statement, Okay, I'll fine. The one

(01:07:30):
that I remembered was on eight, was on five twenty
six o eight.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
Well, what did he call What did he say to you?
On five twenty six o eight?

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):
He he called me, well, he said I look like
a pure whore.

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
And that was on five twenty six o eight. Yes,
And do you understand why why he called you that?
Was he upset something of that nature?

Speaker 3 (01:08:12):
Yes, Well, he was upset about a lot of things
that day, but there was a specific.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
Reason he called me that why he called you a whore?

Speaker 3 (01:08:19):
Yeah? Why he found a comment that I left on
another friend's page on his Facebook on one of his photos.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
In this, uh, you said another friend's page? What are
you referring to his Facebook page?

Speaker 3 (01:08:38):
The guy had a photograph up and I left a
funny what I thought was a funny comment on it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:43):
Did you recall what the comment was?

Speaker 4 (01:08:45):
Yes, it was a reference to the movie Anchorman. It's
a comedy with Will Ferrell. And can I explain the context?

Speaker 3 (01:08:56):
Well?

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
Do you? Well, let's say, first of all, what was
the comment I put?

Speaker 3 (01:09:01):
Are those man boobs? Or are you just ripped?

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
Okay? And this was the comment. Travis was mad at
this comment and called you a whore because you said
you made a movie reference.

Speaker 3 (01:09:18):
Yeah, it was a joke about the movie from the movie.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
Okay. Was there other discussions with him that day, be
they specifically May twenty six, Be they verbal or written discussions?

Speaker 3 (01:09:36):
There was?

Speaker 4 (01:09:37):
There were these text messages and also a chat conversation
and a phone conversation that followed.

Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
Okay, is this a check conversation we heard in evidence
earlier where he calls you a three whole wonder yes,
and a slut yes, and a whore yes, and many
other things. What other things do you recall him calling
you during that.

Speaker 3 (01:10:06):
Conversation, calls me a bitch, he tells me I'm worthless,
and he tells me I'm shit.

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):
And to your understanding, this was a about an Anchorman
reference posted on a Facebook page that.

Speaker 3 (01:10:25):
Was meant one of many convoluted subjects that he was
angry about.

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
Okay, was there other things he was angry at you about? Yes,
that day, to your understanding, what were those things?

Speaker 3 (01:10:42):
He was angry because I told him I would drop
the subject of him getting help for his stuff and
what do you mean his stuff is hm, his sexual.

Speaker 4 (01:10:57):
Problems and and well, we agreed to drop it as
long as he got help. I didn't think I didn't
really wanna bring it up anymore. But after he made
that comment about sodomizing a little girl on the phone,
then I was kind of well. I was concerned that
he wasn't making any progress. So I sent him another

(01:11:20):
of the same p s little stack of pamphlets that
I grabbed, and I mailed it to him without telling him.
I just dropped it in the mail because after that
phone call it concerned me and he blew up over
that and some other things.

Speaker 2 (01:11:35):
Also some other things, what other things.

Speaker 3 (01:11:41):
He was I had sent.

Speaker 4 (01:11:46):
Missent a text message to his phone. Uh, it was
supposed to go to Steve Carroll. And the nature of
that text message.

Speaker 3 (01:11:57):
Was that.

Speaker 4 (01:11:59):
Cause Travis had my Gmail password and he was getting
into it, and so I Steve and I were chatting
on this and it created a fight when Travis found
the tech the conversations.

Speaker 3 (01:12:09):
So I sent Steve Carroll a text message.

Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
I meant to send him a text message saying, hey,
let's use my hotmail for now or something like that,
because someone has my Gmail password. Unfortunately it happens to
be an ex boyfriend. And it was kind of a
long explanation, and I went to hit send and could
see it was two messages on my phone and it
goes through one and then two, and as I was

(01:12:33):
sending it, I saw it was going.

Speaker 3 (01:12:34):
To Travis Alexander, and I was like, oh crap.

Speaker 4 (01:12:36):
So I hit canceled as fast as I could, and
it canceled the message, but the first one made it
to him, and that was enough to piss him off.
So he accused me of being a liar because I
wasn't telling him about what was really going on with
Steve and I, even though you've never met. And then
there was and so it just seemed to compound because
there was a and then there was Steve and John

(01:12:59):
Dixon and all this, all these people, and then he
was very angry about.

Speaker 3 (01:13:05):
All that stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:13:08):
Mentioned Abe, that's a reference to whom.

Speaker 3 (01:13:12):
Abe abdel Hattie.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
S. Since you brought up Abe, if I could approach
again your honor with exhibit of four thirty eight. You
take a look at that and see if you recognize that.

Speaker 3 (01:13:33):
Yes, what is that serious?

Speaker 4 (01:13:35):
This is an email I composed to Abe on February eighteenth,
two thousand seven. I composed it at Travis's behest and
then sent aid the email and also forwarded Travis a
copy afterward because he wanted to read it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:52):
Okay, moved to a exhibit uh a knit exhibit number
four or eight.

Speaker 6 (01:14:01):
Stsman Cordyre the witness on this one.

Speaker 2 (01:14:03):
You made it? You think there's an objection? May with
regard to this.

Speaker 6 (01:14:10):
It says subject forwarding our friendship.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
Correct, that's correct.

Speaker 6 (01:14:15):
And it does say that it's from you, right ah?

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:14:20):
Give it a date, doesn't it?

Speaker 2 (01:14:21):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:14:22):
And it does say that it's to Travis Alexander. Doesn't
it be worded?

Speaker 3 (01:14:26):
Email?

Speaker 1 (01:14:27):
Is? No?

Speaker 6 (01:14:27):
It doesn't say it says two.

Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
Doesn't it objection? This is beyond boor dying the witness?
This is cross examination. He can wait his turn over over.

Speaker 7 (01:14:35):
Take a look at his if a four thirty agency
who will lead two lines two.

Speaker 3 (01:14:42):
To Travis dot Alexander at gmail dot com.

Speaker 8 (01:14:47):
So this isn't and there's underneath there a BCC.

Speaker 3 (01:14:50):
Do you know what that stands for? Blind Carbon Coffee.

Speaker 7 (01:14:55):
You just told us, ma'am that this was composed at
mister Alexander's test, right yes, and that you sent it
to mister abdel Hatti, right yes, and that you sent
a copy to mister Alexander right afterward.

Speaker 2 (01:15:09):
Yes, you can.

Speaker 6 (01:15:10):
You do it at the same time.

Speaker 5 (01:15:11):
Is that what you say?

Speaker 3 (01:15:12):
That's amazing?

Speaker 7 (01:15:14):
Man?

Speaker 6 (01:15:14):
Isn't it true that what happened is that you actually
took this email.

Speaker 8 (01:15:20):
Again, you are I mean Jack if he wants to
say this across the room as you play.

Speaker 2 (01:15:24):
But the foundation for this EXI is in late and
we moved for its admission. She's already explained.

Speaker 6 (01:15:31):
Cow us a little roach, yeh, coun's the roach?

Speaker 2 (01:15:37):
This the area before you forwarded this email to mister Alexander.
Do you recall when you send it to mister abdul Hattie.

Speaker 6 (01:15:50):
It isn't forwarded, It's sent to mister Alexander.

Speaker 2 (01:15:53):
Reprieve it this email was a forwarded email, correct?

Speaker 3 (01:15:59):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:16:01):
To whom was it originally sent before you forwarded to
mister Alexander.

Speaker 3 (01:16:05):
I first composed it and sent it off to E
to ab Abdahatti.

Speaker 2 (01:16:09):
And do you remember approximately? Do you remember when that was?

Speaker 3 (01:16:15):
I believe the date was February eighteenth, two thousand seven.

Speaker 2 (01:16:18):
So the same day that you forwarded to mister Alexander. Yes, okay,
I moved to admit Exhibit four thirty eight.

Speaker 3 (01:16:27):
Anything else?

Speaker 2 (01:16:29):
Why did we write? Why did you write this letter
to mister Alduhatty.

Speaker 4 (01:16:39):
Travis was giving me a hard time about us remaining friends.
He felt that there was too much history between us
because we had gone on one day.

Speaker 2 (01:16:46):
And this reads a bit like a break up letter.
You make the comment that what matters to me is
how that I am accountable for. Uh, let's see. What

(01:17:09):
matters to me is how that which I am accountable
for would make Travis feel.

Speaker 3 (01:17:16):
I don't see what paragraphs I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:17:18):
Looking at the paragraph here beginning with the word what okay,
what do you.

Speaker 8 (01:17:31):
Mean by that?

Speaker 3 (01:17:35):
I just wanted to put Well, Travis and I already
become official.

Speaker 4 (01:17:41):
Well, I guess I just call it official because that's
when we decided we're going to stop dating other people.
So I wasn't dating a during this time, but I
was still his friend, and it's very common at the
prepay legal events to hug associates that you know, kind
of like we're all a big family. So Travis was
not comfortable with me hugging Abe. He had said that

(01:18:02):
his friend Chris called him and told him that he
saw me hugging Abe at one of the Super Saturday's
in Anaheim, and it made Travis uncomfortable. And then I
just I thought to myself, would I have done that?
Would I've hugged Abe if Travis were with me? And
I realized that I wouldn't have. So then I realized, well,
that means I'm acting differently in front of Travis than

(01:18:23):
I would otherwise, and I didn't like that I was
being I didn't want to be that way. So I
decided that I wanted to conduct myself and treat Abe
the way I would treat him if Travis were standing right.

Speaker 2 (01:18:35):
Next to me. Okay, I'm a little confused when we
go to the paragraph beforehand, he said, when we hugged
at the Grove a few weeks ago, my intention was
nothing more than to warmly greet a friend and business associate. Right, Yes,

(01:18:58):
that's what it says, what's what's what would be wrong
with that?

Speaker 5 (01:19:07):
In your mind?

Speaker 3 (01:19:08):
There was nothing wrong with it.

Speaker 4 (01:19:09):
In my mind, I didn't think I was in the wrong,
but I realized it made Travis uncomfortable.

Speaker 3 (01:19:15):
Or unhappy.

Speaker 2 (01:19:17):
So, because it made Travis uncomfortable and unhappy that you
hugged a friend and business associate, you were encouraged by
mister Alexander in order to avoid his wrath to write
this letter right restated, in order to avoid mister Alexander

(01:19:45):
getting mad, raising his voice at you and making you shake.
Is that why you wrote this letter?

Speaker 4 (01:19:53):
No, because I wasn't shaking yet at that point, and
I only seen his wrath one time. I actually hadn't
seen it.

Speaker 3 (01:19:57):
I heard it over the phone. I just wrote it
more so that he would feel.

Speaker 4 (01:20:02):
Better about my interaction with Abe, and so that Abe
was on the same page as me, so that he
didn't take any offense when I was less warm or
friendly toward him.

Speaker 2 (01:20:13):
Why you just told us a minute ago that you
didn't think there was anything wrong with hugging a friend
and business associate at the grove Travis did. Why was
his feelings on the issue more important to you than yours?

Speaker 4 (01:20:34):
I felt maybe it was just not a good way
to look at things at that time. But I used
to believe that when you're in a relationship, the other
person's feelings shouldn't take precedence.

Speaker 2 (01:20:46):
Is that what you mean when you say his happiness
is a cardinal significance to me, and his feelings opinion
I value more greatly than gold. Yes. The next begins
with I didn't write this email to expand upon my
secret worship Travis agenda. What does that mean?

Speaker 4 (01:21:07):
Because it sounds throughout the email like I'm putting him
on a pedestal, and I really was, But that wasn't
really the reason for the email.

Speaker 3 (01:21:15):
So that's that's kind of just a joke. But that's
why I wrote that.

Speaker 2 (01:21:18):
And you also write in this email. I think you're
a great person who has never had a single bad
intention towards me, and I appreciate all the time you've
taken to apart your knowledge, perspectives, and experiences. You didn't
hold any ill will to mister Alduharty right, No, you

(01:21:40):
didn't want to kick his ass in the bathroom like
we heard mister Alexander did yesterday.

Speaker 3 (01:21:48):
No, I didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:21:51):
As it relates to your understanding. I know we talked.
Is this part of the conflict between mister Alexander and
mister Abu Hudti.

Speaker 4 (01:22:05):
Yeah, that's one component of the whole conflict between regarding
that subject.

Speaker 2 (01:22:15):
Did you ever ask Travis to write a similar letter
to the woman who was hugging him in Oklahoma City?

Speaker 3 (01:22:24):
No, I would never have done that. Why.

Speaker 4 (01:22:29):
I didn't feel well, I didn't like the way it
felt when he asked me to in my friendships, so
I didn't. I wouldn't have done that for him, and
I've never done that with any of my boyfriends.

Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
Did he ask you to end other friendships with male friends? Yes?
Could you describe that for us?

Speaker 3 (01:22:53):
Yes, he didn't want me to be friends with John Dixon,
and so were clear.

Speaker 2 (01:23:00):
Mister Dixon was the gentleman brought up in the tape
we heard yesterday.

Speaker 3 (01:23:04):
No, not in the tape. He was the one that
we thought about prior to our leaving for Havasupai, and he.

Speaker 2 (01:23:13):
Was just a friend, right, just a friend.

Speaker 4 (01:23:16):
Well, there was sort of a romantic interest there, but
it wasn't anything that I would let blossom because he
wasn't a member of the church.

Speaker 2 (01:23:24):
Were you encouraged or motivated by mister Alexander to write
a letter like this to mister Dixon.

Speaker 3 (01:23:35):
Yes, something was quite as long, but there was a
similar letter written.

Speaker 2 (01:23:42):
Was it humiliating you to write these letters?

Speaker 3 (01:23:44):
It was awkward. I just tried to write from my heart.

Speaker 2 (01:23:51):
And aside from mister Abdukati and mister Dixon, were there
other males to which mister Alexander wanted you to end
your friendship?

Speaker 3 (01:24:05):
I can't recall.

Speaker 4 (01:24:06):
He was just hostile about most interactions I had with guys,
but that was those two stand out because he actually
wanted me to stop being friends with them.

Speaker 2 (01:24:15):
Okay, and you did?

Speaker 4 (01:24:22):
He in Oklahoma City, well almost in Oklahoma City, he
demanded that I call Abe right then and there, that
same night that he saw him and I talking and
end our friendship.

Speaker 3 (01:24:33):
So I called. I mean, I was trying to think
of some alternative or something he would be happy with,
some kind of compromise, and I couldn't come up with anything.

Speaker 4 (01:24:42):
So I reluctantly called him with that in mind, and
Abe did most of the talking. He's very chatty, and
the more he talked he seemed kind of level headed,
and I just couldn't bring myself to do it. It
seemed confrontational or a little bit bold for me to say, hey,
let's stopping friends unnecessary at the same time, So what
I did instead is I just made a promise to

(01:25:06):
myself that I wouldn't make any effort to contact him
at all as long as.

Speaker 3 (01:25:09):
Travis and I were together.

Speaker 2 (01:25:11):
And this was in Oklahoma City. I want to be specific,
as we've mentioned a couple different conferences. What year was that.

Speaker 3 (01:25:27):
That was March two thousand and seven, Oklahoma City.

Speaker 2 (01:25:31):
And just so we're clear, you went to Oklahoma City
with mister Alexander in March of two thousand and seven,
in March of two thousand and eight, is that correct? Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:25:41):
Both okay?

Speaker 2 (01:25:44):
And when you went in March of two thousand and eight,
this was subsequent to a history trip, correct.

Speaker 4 (01:25:56):
Or did you just go Yeah, it was all the
same trip, but we hit all the church history sites
first and went to convention.

Speaker 2 (01:26:01):
Did mister Alexander, Well, let's talk about this. He did
mister Alexander ever encourage you to end friendships with women?

Speaker 3 (01:26:17):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:26:17):
Could you describe that for us?

Speaker 3 (01:26:21):
Yes, he didn't like.

Speaker 4 (01:26:22):
My friend Rachel, one of the only close friends I
had in the church. I met her in Palm Desert.
She went to the same branch. The branch is the
same thing as a ward. They just call it a
branch when it's a smaller number of members in the group.
So it was a branch in Palm Desert. She was
part of that, and our friendship blossomed.

Speaker 2 (01:26:42):
And was this the same Rachel you lived with when
you moved to Mesa.

Speaker 3 (01:26:49):
Yes, that's one I moved in with.

Speaker 2 (01:26:52):
And to your understanding, why did mister Alexander want you
to end your relationship your friendship with Rachel?

Speaker 4 (01:27:02):
He became a hostile toward not toward her f because
he didn't interact with her a lot, but anytime she
came up in her conversations. After I had a conversation
with him, which came after she and I had the conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:27:17):
That we need to go to our bishops.

Speaker 2 (01:27:22):
Yourself and Rachel had a conversation about going to the bishop,
could you.

Speaker 5 (01:27:31):
What does what does that mean?

Speaker 2 (01:27:32):
Or could you just explain that to us?

Speaker 4 (01:27:35):
Yes, my understanding is when you're a member of the church,
most things, if you you know, we're all sinners is
the idea, and nobody's perfect, So you repent and a
lot of times that stays between you and God and
within your heart, and you know you you go through
your own repentance process until you feel like you have
repentant sufficiently.

Speaker 3 (01:27:56):
But when there are certain.

Speaker 4 (01:27:58):
Sins that are more egregious, it is recommended that you
go to your bishop so that he can counsel you
and guide you toward.

Speaker 3 (01:28:08):
Back to the straight and narrow in other words, And
so sexual sin is definitely on that.

Speaker 2 (01:28:12):
So your conversation with Rachel then related to sexual sin?

Speaker 3 (01:28:20):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:28:21):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:28:23):
And was this the same conversation you referred to a
while back about where you told her you were having
moral sex with Travis? Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:28:32):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:28:35):
And Travis. Did Travis want you to go to the
bishop with this information?

Speaker 1 (01:28:43):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:28:47):
And would I be correct in assuming then that Travis
didn't want wanted you to end your friendship with Rachel
because she encouraged.

Speaker 3 (01:28:58):
You to go to the He was just tossed out
about her afterward. I don't really know the reason.

Speaker 2 (01:29:06):
Okay, aside from Rachel. Did he want you to end
your friendship with anyone else? Any other females? Excuse me?

Speaker 3 (01:29:18):
Nobody comes to mind. I want to say yes, but
I can't think of anybody.

Speaker 2 (01:29:22):
Getting back to the text messages, you mentioned that on
May twenty sixth he called you a whore? Moving back
in time, were there other text messages where he called
you nick?

Speaker 3 (01:29:42):
When I was looking through these just now, it seemed
like there were more. They were more like complaints or
accusations of things that I did wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:29:51):
No, that wasn't my question. Apart from calling you names.
If I heard you correctly, you said there was at
accusations in these text messages. Is that what you said?

Speaker 3 (01:30:03):
Accusations and complaints about just things that he things that
he felt I did wrong or things that didn't please him.

Speaker 2 (01:30:14):
Okay, let's start with accusations and then we'll work our
way back to the things you did wrong. And if
they're one and the same, so be it. What were
the accusations he made against you in text messages? And
if you need a minute to look, please do.

Speaker 3 (01:30:36):
Okay, there was a bunch in here. I don't know
how many examples you want, because it's full of them.

Speaker 2 (01:30:54):
Okay, take very before we again.

Speaker 1 (01:30:59):
All right, please, and please be back three twenty. We
will start promptly at that time. Please remember the admonition
you are excused.

Speaker 3 (01:31:13):
M HM.

Speaker 1 (01:31:57):
Seated the revolution of the presence of the jury that
in all counsel, mister Nurma, you may continue.

Speaker 2 (01:32:03):
Thank you, mysterious. Before we delve too far into the
text messages, I neglected to ask when you were you
were talking about your friendship with Rachel Blaney and her

(01:32:27):
suggestion that she or that you go to the bishop.
Did you have a conversation with Travis about her suggestion?

Speaker 3 (01:32:38):
Yes? And just for the record, it's Rachel Bennett. Sorry,
I'm sorry, was Rachel Bennett?

Speaker 2 (01:32:45):
What's that it was?

Speaker 3 (01:32:46):
I think she's sup coursed.

Speaker 2 (01:32:47):
Okay, Rachel. Uh, you have this conversation with Rachel and
you talked to Travis about.

Speaker 9 (01:32:56):
It, and.

Speaker 2 (01:32:59):
Based on your conversation with Rachel, it sound like you
wanted to go to the bishop.

Speaker 3 (01:33:04):
Is that heckurate, I felt it necessary at that point
based on what Rachel told me.

Speaker 2 (01:33:10):
Did Travis want you to go to the bishop? No?
What was your understanding of the reasons that he did
not want you to go to the bishop?

Speaker 3 (01:33:21):
He had had this problem before, it was embarrassing to him,
and he did not want to go to his bishop.
I offered, that's okay, that I'll.

Speaker 4 (01:33:29):
Just go to mine and That's when I learned that
if I go to my bishop, there's a high potential
that his bishop, my bishop would call his bishop and
then he'd get called into the bishop's office, and that
would create problems for him.

Speaker 2 (01:33:41):
Why would that What was your understanding of what problems
that would create for him?

Speaker 3 (01:33:49):
I wasn't sure.

Speaker 4 (01:33:50):
I just know that he, he and Deiana had gone
had had their temple recommends taken away at one point.

Speaker 3 (01:33:59):
That's what he told me, because of the same activities.

Speaker 2 (01:34:07):
What was your understanding of mister Alexander's for lack of
a way about better way of putting a status in
the church.

Speaker 3 (01:34:22):
Well, I was actually real nervous about talking him because
he baptized me.

Speaker 9 (01:34:30):
He she's explaining, in order to baptize, you have to
have a certain you have to hold the priesthood.

Speaker 4 (01:34:43):
He was a holder of the Melkezdic priesthood, which is
a greater priesthood. So my understanding of it at that
time was that when you hold the priesthood, you're delegated
with a certain authority to act for God. He had
read the Book of Mormon twenty three times at that point.
He could quote hundreds of scriptures, maybe more from memory.
He knew all the doctrine through and through, at least

(01:35:07):
I believed he did, including what Mormons referred to as
deep doctrine, which are types of doctrine that aren't that
isn't that aren't immediately shared with non members, if at all,
And they aren't immediately shared with new members either, but
maybe eventually depending on their progress in the church. And

(01:35:28):
I mean he wore his temple garments, he went to
the temple, he'd been a church member.

Speaker 3 (01:35:31):
For over a decade, he baptized me.

Speaker 4 (01:35:34):
It just seemed like he was a lot farther along
in his knowledge and authority in the church than I was.
I hadn't even been a member for a year at
this point, and a year is a significant milestone.

Speaker 2 (01:35:47):
In the church house.

Speaker 3 (01:35:49):
So after being a church member for a year, if
you've lived uh worthily for that year, you are eligible
to enter the temple.

Speaker 2 (01:36:00):
So when you are you telling us then that you
felt as if his knowledge was so much greater than yours.
So his decisions on these issues, or his beliefs on
these issues were more informed than yours.

Speaker 4 (01:36:24):
I believed he was superior to me in all matters
of our mutual religion, and I understood his embarrassment, and
I also understood, well, I believed that he understood where
the line should be drawn as far as the law
of chastity goes, and that.

Speaker 3 (01:36:43):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:36:44):
I mean, we did go all the way like a
few days before, so I knew that that we had
crossed that line. But I mean I knew for certain,
you know, all the other things aside, But I didn't
want to cause any problems for him.

Speaker 2 (01:36:59):
So after you had this discussion about telling the bishop
you wanted to, he didn't and you didn't. Is that accurate?

Speaker 3 (01:37:09):
Well, I can't real even say I wanted to. I
felt like I had to. It was not like I
was looking forward to it.

Speaker 2 (01:37:13):
Okay, that's yeah, all right. Getting back to these text messages,
and I know you've had a chance to look at
them a little further. Rather than going backwards, perhaps we'll
go back in time and move towards two thousand and

(01:37:36):
eight earlier. And during your testimony, we saw a couple
of pictures of that you've testified were pictures of mister
Alexander's penis that he had sent to you. You recall that, yes,

(01:38:01):
having a review those text messages. Are there other times
in which he sent you pictures of his penis for erection?

Speaker 3 (01:38:11):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:38:13):
And you remember when those were having looked at the
text messages, and if you need to refresh your recollection,
just let us know.

Speaker 3 (01:38:23):
Yes, they would have been February two thousand and eight.

Speaker 2 (01:38:28):
Okay. And the messages you see are those just the
verbiage or are there more pictures associated with those text
messages you have before you?

Speaker 4 (01:38:47):
There are pictures associated with these text messages, but the
pictures aren't here just the text.

Speaker 2 (01:38:56):
How often did miss Alexander? Well, we've heard of two
occasions when he sent you picture of this penis? Were
there other occasions when he did that?

Speaker 3 (01:39:10):
There were other occasions?

Speaker 2 (01:39:13):
Do you remember how many more?

Speaker 3 (01:39:17):
Several? Not tons, but there were many times?

Speaker 5 (01:39:20):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (01:39:22):
What was that? I mean? I couldn't count summer around ten,
I mean over ten, under twenty?

Speaker 2 (01:39:28):
Say, okay, did you ever request these pictures?

Speaker 3 (01:39:31):
Sometimes?

Speaker 2 (01:39:33):
Why?

Speaker 3 (01:39:35):
I requested pictures of him but not his You know
that that's.

Speaker 2 (01:39:39):
What you mean?

Speaker 1 (01:39:40):
Is that?

Speaker 3 (01:39:41):
What do you mean by that is penis?

Speaker 2 (01:39:44):
Are you embarrassed to say penis?

Speaker 3 (01:39:46):
Oh? Yeah, well in public? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:39:53):
Okay, you never requested pictures of his penis, but he
sent them to you at the same time. Having reviewed
some of these text messages, were there times when he
would request pictures of you that the via text message? Yes,

(01:40:19):
and having reviewed some of those text messages, and if
you need to take a look at it, just let
us know when did those requests happen?

Speaker 4 (01:40:28):
They happened many times, but these text messages show there
was some on February February twenty fifth.

Speaker 3 (01:40:53):
Two thousand.

Speaker 2 (01:40:54):
Now, looking at February fifth, two thousand and eight, twenty fifth,
twenty fifth, twenty fifth, excuse me, two thousand and there
are a series of messages. Well, let me ask you this.
When you look at these messages, whose phone are these

(01:41:19):
based on? When a message is incoming? Does that mean
incoming to your phone or incoming to mister Alexander's phone.

Speaker 3 (01:41:27):
It would be incoming to Travis's phone like a message
he received.

Speaker 2 (01:41:31):
Okay. And on the twenty fifth of February two thousand
and eight, it appears there were numerous text messageses that day.
Will that be fair to your recollection?

Speaker 4 (01:41:52):
Yes, we were going back and forth for the whole weekend,
I think almost almost the whole weekend.

Speaker 2 (01:41:58):
Okay, And If you look at those messages, one could
get the impression that you were texting Travis and he
wasn't texting you back to your recollection of events. Is
that accurate?

Speaker 3 (01:42:17):
No, that's not accurate.

Speaker 2 (01:42:19):
Are there text messages that you sent mister Alexander that
are not included in this in the data that is
before you?

Speaker 4 (01:42:31):
Yes, I was responding to him and he was responding
to me back and forth for this entire thread. But
all of his are They must be deleted because they're
not here.

Speaker 2 (01:42:39):
Okay, you said before we get into the content of
some of these, you said that you were going back
and forth that weekend. Was there something going on weekend

(01:43:00):
between you and mister Alexander that isn't reflected in these
text messages?

Speaker 3 (01:43:08):
Yes, well it's not very detailed in the text messages.

Speaker 2 (01:43:13):
Okay, since it's not, please provide us that detail. Was there?
Was there an argument?

Speaker 5 (01:43:25):
Was there.

Speaker 2 (01:43:27):
A vacation? What was going on in the February twenty
fifth or I guess it was a weekend. What was
going on that weekend?

Speaker 3 (01:43:37):
Well, it started as it started as an invitation. He
was going to take me somewhere.

Speaker 4 (01:43:45):
For I got some articles of organization for him to
start an LLC and he wanted me to do all.

Speaker 3 (01:43:49):
The footwork for it and he would pay to have
it published.

Speaker 4 (01:43:52):
And so he said, by doing that, I want to
take you out to dinner to this place that you
really love. And he didn't want to tell me where
it was. He just said, it's something right, something totally you.

Speaker 3 (01:44:00):
You'd love it. And so it was something he kind
of talked up a little.

Speaker 2 (01:44:04):
And it.

Speaker 4 (01:44:07):
Wasn't like set in stone this date, but I guess
it was in his mind. Otherwise I would have never
taken off because it sounded like a fun date.

Speaker 3 (01:44:16):
But instead I was talking to Gus Searcy and he was.

Speaker 4 (01:44:20):
Doing a presentation in Las Vegas, and I went out
there for the weekend to see the presentation and go
to a few things, just shows and things around in
Las Vegas, just just a week in to relax a
little bit. And I didn't tell Travis I was going,
and he got very up. He got very upset about

(01:44:41):
it and offended and hurt that he accused me of
ditching out on our date.

Speaker 2 (01:44:48):
Okay, so this was the reason, uh for the flurry
of text messages then, No, actually, because.

Speaker 4 (01:44:58):
What happened was after that argument, he apologized, and I
apologized because I felt like, I mean, I didn't mean
to skip out on the state. I didn't understand that
it was set in stone. So I felt really bad
cause he seemed very upset about it. And after that,
just like almost always after we're downe apologizing, it led

(01:45:19):
to something sexual. And so we started going back and
forth on our text messages and they got dirtier and
dirtier and dirtier, and.

Speaker 3 (01:45:28):
So it was kind of like just four play two.
When I got back to Mesa, you.

Speaker 2 (01:45:36):
Mentioned, like it always does, it got sexual after an argument,
and you mentioned makeup sex before. Why did it get
from your perspective, why did it get sexual after an argument?

Speaker 4 (01:46:03):
Travis had this cute little term called distressing, and I
thought that was interesting. So it's something we began to
It was like a code word in our relationship. So
when he was stressed out, his way to distress would be.

Speaker 3 (01:46:18):
Sex.

Speaker 4 (01:46:20):
So arguments were stressful and that was a good way
to blow of steam and feel better afterward.

Speaker 2 (01:46:27):
My sex are we including oral sex, anal sex, or
vaginal sex?

Speaker 3 (01:46:31):
Is that what? Yeah? All of the above?

Speaker 2 (01:46:33):
All the above was distressing.

Speaker 3 (01:46:36):
Well whatever whatever the activity entailed that day.

Speaker 2 (01:46:41):
Now you mentioned, uh, you were in Vegas, and from
what you told us earlier, you said it became sexual
and you said he was asking for pictures that day?

Speaker 6 (01:46:54):
Yes, okay?

Speaker 2 (01:46:56):
And by pictures whatever? Correct? And assuming we're talking about
nude photographs, yes, okay. And when you received these requests
from mister Alexander for nude photographs of yourself? Where were you?

Speaker 3 (01:47:17):
I was hanging out with Gus in his motor home.
We were watching them Christine.

Speaker 2 (01:47:23):
When mister Alexander sent you the text messages requesting dirty pictures?
Did you have dirty pictures? Dirty pictures? As you said you?
Did you have those on your phone? No?

Speaker 3 (01:47:43):
I didn't keep them on my phone. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:47:47):
So did the request then involve making a new current
picture of yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:47:58):
In order to fulfill the request? I would have had too, Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:48:05):
Did you end up fulfilling that request? I did my best,
and I know might be embarrassing, but how did you
What did you do to do your best?

Speaker 3 (01:48:21):
Obviously I'm not gonna do anything like that with Gusts there.
So I went into the bathroom and it's a motor home,
it's a very small, cramped bathroom, and he wanted photo,
and I just I mean, the lighting was for I
just did the best I could.

Speaker 2 (01:48:37):
What did he want a photo of?

Speaker 1 (01:48:39):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (01:48:39):
My butt?

Speaker 2 (01:48:42):
So you do you t remove your clothing to take
a picture of your products? For mister Alexander, Not all my.

Speaker 3 (01:48:48):
Clothing, just my pants?

Speaker 8 (01:48:50):
Okay, am I underwork?

Speaker 2 (01:48:54):
What was that?

Speaker 3 (01:48:55):
Just my pants and my underwork?

Speaker 2 (01:49:00):
Why do you do this?

Speaker 4 (01:49:01):
Because he responded positively or favorably toward those things, so
there was incentive in that regard.

Speaker 2 (01:49:09):
Okay, before we move off the subject, did you fulfill
requests like this more than this one occasion?

Speaker 3 (01:49:26):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:49:29):
Can you recall another occasion when you were asked to
do that?

Speaker 3 (01:49:41):
I'm drawing a blink.

Speaker 4 (01:49:42):
I mean, I know that was something that happened in
our relationship, but I'm drawing a blink.

Speaker 2 (01:49:49):
Okay. It wasn't uncommon for you then, to get these
requests and go off to fulfill them. Is that fair
to say.

Speaker 3 (01:50:04):
It wasn't uncommon? But it wasn't very frequent?

Speaker 5 (01:50:09):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:50:10):
But you never stored these photos on your phone?

Speaker 3 (01:50:14):
Is that what you were telling us before they got deleted? Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:50:20):
So were they all requests? Did he request that you
send pictures of particular body parts and at different occasions.

Speaker 3 (01:50:36):
He only requested that specifically that I.

Speaker 2 (01:50:39):
Remember, Okay, how did you feel.

Speaker 3 (01:50:48):
Doing kind of like the voyeur a little bit? I mean,
it wasn't I don't know, it's I just I felt
a little awkward, like if there was a picture that
wasn't very flattering, I.

Speaker 4 (01:50:59):
Would delete, didn't try again, and delete, didn't try again.
And if it was like, Okay, that one looks, He'll
like that one, so I would send it.

Speaker 3 (01:51:06):
And it wasn't so much.

Speaker 4 (01:51:10):
That that was uncomfortable, but it was outweighed by the
fact that I liked his response in return.

Speaker 2 (01:51:19):
And so when you send him these pictures, do you
see in these text messages positive responses from him? Or
are those been? Are those not present? As it relates

(01:51:40):
to February.

Speaker 4 (01:51:40):
Twenty five, his responses are not present, But I did
receive positive well, they were not angry or negative by
any means.

Speaker 2 (01:51:52):
When you say positive response, what are we talking about?
And if you need to look back at the entire
or dialogue of that day, please do so. Well.

Speaker 4 (01:52:06):
I can see that I'm responding to things he said,
and we were trying to top each other. His responses
aren't here, but there are different things that we're talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:52:18):
Okay. Would you would it be fair to characterize his
responses on that day as sexual?

Speaker 3 (01:52:30):
Yes, exactly that. Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:52:35):
One of the things that we spoke about earlier was, well,
let me ask you this. Did he request did he
send you looking at these text messages? Did he send
you other text messages of a sexual nature?

Speaker 3 (01:52:59):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:53:02):
Can you recall any of those for us?

Speaker 3 (01:53:08):
There's one in here. I mean, I can find it
if you'd like it.

Speaker 2 (01:53:11):
Sure, Okay, m h m hm h m m hmm.

Speaker 3 (01:54:36):
I'm not finding the one that's looking for Let.

Speaker 2 (01:54:38):
Me back up the step apart from the sexual text messages. Well,
let me ask you this we talked about before we
completely get off the sexual text messages. Did he ever
ask you ever or make a reference or request of

(01:55:02):
you to wear your hair and braids during in these
text messages?

Speaker 3 (01:55:08):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:55:08):
Do you ever remember him making specific requests to you
via text message to wear the spider Man under?

Speaker 3 (01:55:18):
I remember making requests.

Speaker 4 (01:55:19):
I don't know if it was over text or the phone,
but I remember responding about them.

Speaker 3 (01:55:27):
In the text messages.

Speaker 2 (01:55:28):
Okay, yesterday told us about a trip you made to Walgreens.
In order to obtain candy that would be used as
sexual props. Do you remember sending or receiving a text

(01:55:48):
message related to that?

Speaker 3 (01:55:51):
I remember sending and receiving text messages that night.

Speaker 4 (01:55:53):
I don't know if we were referring to the pop
rocks or I think it was more about how I'm
not comfortable going into the store I put cause I'm
dressed like a slut.

Speaker 2 (01:56:01):
Okay, did you did Travis ever send you text messages
in which he was And I forget the words you
used earlier, So I'm just gonna say that he was
if he was mean to you, Yes, recount for us

(01:56:23):
if you will, times that he was mean to you
in these text messages.

Speaker 3 (01:56:28):
Can I look at the text messages? He got meaner
after I moved, so I skipped a nap.

Speaker 2 (01:58:03):
So are those text messages you have in front of you?
Are they dated?

Speaker 3 (01:58:07):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:58:09):
You take a look at the text messages related to
uh the time around March thirtieth of two thousand eight.

Speaker 3 (01:58:27):
Yeah, if you wanna reference to number, can.

Speaker 1 (01:58:31):
You look at that?

Speaker 2 (01:58:32):
No, just review 'em and and describe for us what
mister Alexander was conveying to you. And those messages.

Speaker 3 (01:59:02):
It's a fight that started because I hung up on
him because he was swearing at me.

Speaker 2 (01:59:11):
To your understanding, why why was mister Alexander swearing at you?

Speaker 4 (01:59:18):
He was swearing because he got upset. I don't really
remember what this argument was about. There were so many
but he mentions something about something having to do with prepaid.

Speaker 2 (01:59:30):
Legal and was he mad at you or mad in
general related to something a prepaid legal?

Speaker 4 (01:59:41):
It sounds it appears that he was mad at me
because I was stressing him out because I made a
comment about not making players Club, which is monthly qualification.

Speaker 3 (01:59:52):
The Player's Club is.

Speaker 4 (01:59:53):
I don't remember it specifically now it's been so long,
but it's it was y a level of production. Certain
they accounted, certain memberships he sold or recruits his counters,
and so a certain number of counters each month got
you into the players Club.

Speaker 2 (02:00:09):
And I got a little confused there. He was mad
at you for commenting on how he didn't get into
players Club.

Speaker 3 (02:00:17):
No I didn't, he's he said here, I was moaning
about it, but I think I just mentioned it. I
don't remember moaning about it.

Speaker 2 (02:00:25):
You don't remember what he he says.

Speaker 3 (02:00:29):
He was talking about how I was moaning about not
making Players.

Speaker 2 (02:00:31):
Club, about him not making about.

Speaker 3 (02:00:35):
Me not making players Club, and so he always made
players Club? What's that he always made players Club?

Speaker 2 (02:00:41):
Okay? And that Player's Club is a level in prepaid
legal It's.

Speaker 4 (02:00:46):
More a qualification. It doesn't have to do with your
actual level. You can be any level in being Player's Club,
players Club or not, I think.

Speaker 2 (02:00:55):
Okay. So he was mad at you for not making
players Club.

Speaker 4 (02:01:05):
No, he was mad at me bringing up the fact
that I didn't make Players Club that month.

Speaker 2 (02:01:12):
Okay, and that yelled. That led to him cussing at you.

Speaker 3 (02:01:21):
Yes, I hung up because he started swearing.

Speaker 2 (02:01:24):
In general or at you? Was he calling you names?
Do you remember what he said?

Speaker 4 (02:01:28):
I don't remember, but he was being very negative towards me,
and I didn't like listening to it, so I hung
up so I didn't.

Speaker 3 (02:01:35):
Have to hear it anymore.

Speaker 2 (02:01:36):
Was it hard on you to hang up on him?

Speaker 3 (02:01:39):
Yes? Very hard?

Speaker 2 (02:01:43):
Had he hung up on you before?

Speaker 3 (02:01:45):
I think he has? I can't. Nothing really stands out,
but yeah, I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (02:01:49):
Yet when you hung up on him, how did he react?
Is that what we see in the text messages without
telling us what is said? Is that what we see
in the text messages his reaction.

Speaker 3 (02:02:05):
It's not about hanging up.

Speaker 4 (02:02:07):
It's more about just more of the same that he
was talking about in the conversation that caused me to
hang up.

Speaker 2 (02:02:12):
Okay, was this commentary on your abilities within prepaid legal No, it.

Speaker 3 (02:02:23):
Was about he's accusing me of stressing him out.

Speaker 2 (02:02:29):
So when you brought up your problems to him, he
accused you stressing him out and began yelling at you.
Is that right?

Speaker 3 (02:02:39):
Yes, But I think that's what the conversation was supposed
to be about. It appears that I was.

Speaker 4 (02:02:45):
Trying to tell him something that would be to his benefit,
not advice, but a piece of information that he could use.

Speaker 2 (02:02:52):
Okay. Earlier you had mentioned I'm gonna draw your attention
to UH four eight of eight, and there's a text

(02:03:16):
message there that lasts about uh the entire or does
last more than an entire page at timestamp in nineteen
twenty one. Do you see that?

Speaker 3 (02:03:31):
Uh? Yes?

Speaker 2 (02:03:33):
Okay? Was that the reference to the argument you had
earlier about this person that was Michelle or Mimi or Marie.
It was Marie.

Speaker 3 (02:03:54):
It was Marie. But this is a completely new argument
about something different.

Speaker 2 (02:03:57):
The next day, what is this argument about the next story.

Speaker 3 (02:04:03):
Before I left his house. The day I pulled out
of his house, I wish I could remember what it was,
because it's sentimental. But he had some kind of drawing or.

Speaker 4 (02:04:15):
Something that he was giving to me, And because he
was giving it to me, I asked him to sign it,
and he signed it and said something nice on it,
and then I forgot it as I was leaving.

Speaker 5 (02:04:30):
It was just a.

Speaker 3 (02:04:33):
Spacey thing that I did. And he got very.

Speaker 4 (02:04:36):
Upset and accused me of being rude and insensitive and
dramatic because I left it. He thought I left it
behind on purpose, like I was trying to tell him something,
But it was really just something I forgot to.

Speaker 6 (02:04:47):
Take with me, okay.

Speaker 2 (02:04:50):
And he was upset with you about that forgetting it.

Speaker 3 (02:04:55):
Yeah, he was very mad.

Speaker 4 (02:04:57):
He thought that because he had signed it, now he
can't give it to anybody else. So it's like, and
I don't know, I guess cause I didn't take it.
He thought I didn't want it, but I did want it.

Speaker 3 (02:05:07):
I just forgot it, okay.

Speaker 2 (02:05:11):
And I don't understand why I was saying. Did you
ever explain to him that you just forgot it?

Speaker 3 (02:05:15):
Yeah, I explained extensively here that it was just as
honest mistake. I just forgot it. I forgot about it.
There were so many other things going on when I
was leaving.

Speaker 2 (02:05:25):
That was the day you were having the fight. Yes,
and he was flipping you off as you were leaving, right, yes, Okay?
And I guess I'm a little confused, And maybe you
can enlighten it. What was the big deal? Why couldn't
it just be mailed to you or brought up to
you when he was coming to Wareca.

Speaker 3 (02:05:46):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (02:05:46):
He mailed other things to me after I moved, and
there were plans for him to come to Wureka. It
was paper, whatever it was that I'm trying to remember.

Speaker 2 (02:05:53):
It was.

Speaker 4 (02:05:55):
So he felt that it was just another dramatic thing
that I did, and and I don't know. He was
kind of a bully about it.

Speaker 2 (02:06:03):
Kind of a what a bully? I want to move
away from the text messages and show you what has
been marked as Exhibit three ninety nine, if I may approach,

(02:06:33):
take a look at that first materious see if you
recognize that, yes I do, and what is that?

Speaker 3 (02:06:44):
It's just a little rhyme that I wrote when I
was up very late when I sent it to him,
just to be silly him being home.

Speaker 2 (02:06:52):
Uh, Travis, And do you do you recall from looking
at that when you sent that particular?

Speaker 3 (02:06:58):
I sent it on my nineteen, two thousand eight at
three fifteen in the morning.

Speaker 2 (02:07:02):
Okay, when you moved?

Speaker 8 (02:07:07):
Would man?

Speaker 2 (02:07:08):
Is it three ninety nine pilbjection three ninety nine is adhoded?
You mentioned you sent this at about three.

Speaker 6 (02:07:23):
Pilbjection three ninety nine is adhitded?

Speaker 2 (02:07:32):
You mentioned you sent this at about three fifteen in
the morning. Is that when you wrote it.

Speaker 3 (02:07:42):
Right before that?

Speaker 2 (02:07:43):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (02:07:44):
I just composed it real fast, just being silly.

Speaker 2 (02:07:47):
What's that?

Speaker 3 (02:07:48):
I just composed it really fast, just trying to think
of something that would rhyme.

Speaker 2 (02:07:52):
And why did you feel inspired to write a poem
to mister Alexander?

Speaker 4 (02:08:04):
Sometimes just a little line will come to my mind
that rhyme, So I'll just build on that. And also
he was a good poet too, he was what he
was a good poet?

Speaker 2 (02:08:15):
Judge, rather than display it on the display, it requested
to be published by having my serious read it.

Speaker 3 (02:08:23):
Maybe, so.

Speaker 8 (02:08:26):
Just read your poems?

Speaker 3 (02:08:32):
Do you want me to read the first sentence? That's
not part of the poem.

Speaker 2 (02:08:35):
No, the just the poem. Please, Okay.

Speaker 4 (02:08:38):
It says, how doth the mind of the Lord see
it fitting that I should be bored, that I might
compose some poetry and send it speedily off to thee.
But I think is that, in fact, if I am bored,
then I must act. For it is my own restless
mind that has responded this way in kind. And for
that boredom of which I speak, I am still grateful
for It's not bleak. I am still happy for there

(02:09:01):
as much I can still do for it, and such
like send an email after three and read another book.
You see, So here's tuishing you a time that's full
of happiness and rhyme. May your days be full of stimulation,
and not just in simulation, but in reality, just the
way you'd have it be.

Speaker 2 (02:09:20):
What were you hoping? How are you hoping that that
poem would be received.

Speaker 4 (02:09:28):
The same way my previous poems had been received, he expressed,
He expressed gratitude.

Speaker 3 (02:09:36):
Ah, just something positive usually, he complimented me.

Speaker 2 (02:09:46):
In May of two thousand and eight, we had talked
about some of the things you mentioned helping him incorporate.
You mentioned acting as his made You mentioned h helping

(02:10:08):
him in his prepaid legal business. Were you help when
you lived in Wayrika? Did you help him with any
of his philanthropic event event?

Speaker 3 (02:10:24):
Can you be more specific.

Speaker 2 (02:10:30):
Learning FAMI approach again? Yes, for the record, I'm gonna
show marked exhibit number four O six. Please review this
entire document. UH to yourself with.

Speaker 3 (02:10:50):
Yes, I remember his emails.

Speaker 2 (02:10:52):
Okay. What was the subject matter of that email or
your your discussion?

Speaker 3 (02:11:02):
There were several subjects. Part of it was I was expressing.

Speaker 4 (02:11:09):
Just the discontent that I had in the past about
our relationship having never been public, and the expressing my
discontent about the constant shadow that Deanna always casted, probably
knowingly over our relationship at that time, and how we

(02:11:33):
had to hide it from her.

Speaker 3 (02:11:36):
And he had s he started a website. I started
a website with my photography at that time, and he
told me that he would post a a link to my.

Speaker 4 (02:11:49):
Website on his page on his website, and I said,
I'll do the same for you. And then when it
came down to it, he kept stalling and saying, Oh,
I have to talk to Sean. I have to talk
to sew And that was the guy who was helping
with his web hosting, and so I kind of got
the sense that he didn't wanna do it because he
was getting pressure from his friends about our friendship and

(02:12:09):
just different things, a bunch of things. I just felt like,
I want to just take the pressure off him, Like,
if it's that hard to be friends, let's just.

Speaker 3 (02:12:17):
Cool it a little bit.

Speaker 4 (02:12:17):
Like I still wanted to be his friend, but I
didn't want him to feel like that our friendship had
to be a burden.

Speaker 2 (02:12:23):
Okay, and when did you send that email?

Speaker 4 (02:12:27):
May sixteenth, two thousand and eight, a little after midnight,
A little after what thirty two minutes after midnight?

Speaker 5 (02:12:36):
Okay, and you.

Speaker 8 (02:12:39):
Said that too minut Sir Alexander.

Speaker 2 (02:12:42):
Yeah, there's a when I votes a man think, I
said with four O six, Jess said, here's.

Speaker 3 (02:12:58):
Think it's a bit.

Speaker 1 (02:12:59):
Four O six is admitted.

Speaker 2 (02:13:06):
In Sarah's I want to ask you about a couple
of things you said in this email, just so we
have an understanding of exactly what you what you met
in certain areas. I want to begin with the second. Well,

(02:13:39):
the the portion of the letter that begins with uh
directly follows here goes Okay, Okay, if you say to Travis,
I realized, after further introspection, why it is that I
ask you to give me a little mention in your
next post is credit for the task of editing and

(02:14:01):
grammar and typing the lengthy thing out.

Speaker 3 (02:14:05):
What set of reference to Travis was trying was writing
a book on personal development and being a better person.

Speaker 2 (02:14:14):
And from what this sentence would say, then it sounds
like you were editing that book, or could you describe
that for us?

Speaker 4 (02:14:25):
His friend Katie Barnes had edited and typed the introduction,
and he asked if I would edit and type the.

Speaker 3 (02:14:34):
First chapter.

Speaker 2 (02:14:38):
And you say, Katie Barnes, this is a Katie that's
referenced here.

Speaker 6 (02:14:42):
Yes, okay, And.

Speaker 2 (02:14:48):
It sounds like looking at it, you said, it's much longer.
It would make me feel good to have a little
recognition thrown my way. Were you you hurt by the
fact that she got recognition that you didn't.

Speaker 3 (02:15:04):
I wouldn't say hurt. I was a little bugged.

Speaker 4 (02:15:07):
I mean the intro was very short, and he wrote
special things to Katie Barnes, and I thought that's nice
of him, And then.

Speaker 3 (02:15:12):
I joked actually about it. I didn't think he would
because he I.

Speaker 4 (02:15:16):
Don't know, but I said, make sure you put special
things to jodi Arius, just as a joke.

Speaker 3 (02:15:20):
And he said, I can't do that.

Speaker 2 (02:15:24):
And what was your understanding of why he couldn't do that?

Speaker 4 (02:15:28):
His his friends, the Hughes, gave him a hard time,
and he said that they made his life hell whenever
he would talk about our friendship.

Speaker 2 (02:15:36):
Okay, so at this point in time, at least at
some level, then it wasn't just the sex. It was
a secret, but it was a friend to your friendship altogether.

Speaker 3 (02:15:49):
Yeah, our very association had to be a secret. Now
from then?

Speaker 2 (02:15:53):
Okay, you say, and I'm looking down here with this sentence.
It begins with but but myke, you see that Yes,
where pointed too. But my cry for a little recognition
comes from a place within me that feels it was

(02:16:14):
never adequately gratified, and that it thirsted to be validated,
not just as some girlfriend, but as your girl. What
did you mean by that?

Speaker 4 (02:16:27):
Well, almost the entire time I've known him, the extent
of our association association was.

Speaker 3 (02:16:34):
A secret.

Speaker 4 (02:16:36):
So I just tolerated and tolerted, and it didn't I
tried not to let it bother me by not thinking
about it, and so when he said I can't do that,
and now we're not even boyfriend girlfriend anymore, and he
still can't do that or claims he can't it.

Speaker 3 (02:16:52):
Really I realized how much it kind of bugged me.

Speaker 4 (02:16:54):
I didn't realize it until I was walking to work
one day and thinking about the phone call we had
just had. And so when I got back from work,
I can post that email.

Speaker 2 (02:17:02):
Okay, was there ever consideration this is May sixteenth, two
thousand and eight. Was there ever consideration to the fact
that you know we're having phone sex, we're talking, I'm
doing this work for him. He still doesn't want to
recognize me as his friend. Is there ever a thought

(02:17:25):
in your mind saying, Okay, I'm done with this guy.
I don't want to be friends with this guy anymore.
I don't want to associate with him anymore.

Speaker 3 (02:17:37):
No, I never thought anything extreme like that.

Speaker 2 (02:17:40):
Why would that have been extreme to you?

Speaker 4 (02:17:45):
Well, Travis and I had been through a lot, so
I couldn't foresee us like well. I couldn't foresee myself
completely exiling him from my life. I just wanted usposed
to be happy, and I wanted things to be cordial
between us.

Speaker 2 (02:18:08):
And the first paragraph of this Uh, next page, you
say that you find yourself now wishing to be recognized
as your friend, referring to Travis. But you talk about
the recognition within your in his entire circle of friends.

(02:18:33):
Sounds to me like it was more than just christ
and spot Hugh.

Speaker 3 (02:18:38):
Yeah, I guess it was. I didn't have anyone specific
in mind, but I knew that there were How do
I put it? I guess I knew that like he was. I.
I really don't know what I meant by that.

Speaker 4 (02:18:55):
I just wanted to be able to be open about
our friendship in public and like, hey, we're friends at school,
you know, not just all this drama that was we
had been going through.

Speaker 2 (02:19:05):
Okay, you talk about his mode of operation with Deanna
before we go into what you say about it. What
do you mean when you say his mode of operation

(02:19:26):
with Deanna?

Speaker 4 (02:19:29):
He had to constantly hide me from Deanna even after
we broke up. There were times when I was dropping
him off at his house after I moved to Mesa
and he said, Diana's there, make sure she doesn't see
your car, park it down the street and drop me off,
And I thought, we're not even dating.

Speaker 3 (02:19:44):
You said it won't matter to her, she'll freak out.

Speaker 4 (02:19:47):
So and then when we came back from Oklahoma City
in two thousand and eight, he dropped me off at
a quick stop in the middle of the night because
in North Phoenix, because he had to swing by Diana's
house to pick up his dog, Napoleon, because she was babysit.
He didn't want me to go with him because he
didn't want her to know that.

Speaker 3 (02:20:02):
We had went on the trip. This.

Speaker 2 (02:20:06):
You know, you've spoken a couple different times now about how,
you know, he said Deanna would get crazy or she'd
be upset, or things of that nature. Did you ever
see any evidence on miss Reid's part that she acted

(02:20:30):
in a way that supported Travis's the concerns Travis was expressed.

Speaker 3 (02:20:35):
I saw something that I thought was kind of odd,
but maybe not quite to the extreme. I felt Travis
was exaggerating, even though the behavior to me was odd.

Speaker 2 (02:20:45):
Okay, what was that behavior?

Speaker 3 (02:20:49):
At the beginning of October two thousand and six, Travis left.

Speaker 4 (02:20:53):
For General Conference, which is a twice yearly event that
happened in the church where all the general authorities in
the church, including the president of the church, get together
at the conference Center in Salt Lake City and they
give talks and different things, and the whole event happens

(02:21:14):
I think on a Saturday and Sunday, and it is
streamed live broadcast around the world for all church members
and non church members who are curious. The conference center
is huge, and there was a new one recently built,
I mean within the last it's somewhat new. And Travis
had an opportunity to go to this conference that time
with some friends from his church. And when unless he

(02:21:37):
traveled to California, he would usually leave Napoleon at home,
so he needed somebody to watch his dog because he
felt that Napoleon could get lonely. His roommates weren't didn't
pay a lot of attention to him, so he asked
if I would stay at his house to pet sit
for the weekend, and so I did that and one night, well,
the following weekend was when we were going to New Mexico,
so I knew that pl that trip was already planned,

(02:21:59):
and I was at his house, I got this chocolate
chip cookie recipe from the pastry chef at Fintana to
try out this recipe for cookies to see if that
we it was cheap to see if we could just
take a whole bag of cookies on our trip, because
we weren't really we weren't. We didn't have a lot
of money, but that would have been a way to
just eat partially on our trip. So I'm baking these cookies.

(02:22:22):
I'm sitting down watching TV. Napoleon sitting next to me
on the couch. John Hepworth is there, but he stepped outside.
He was on the phone, and he went out the
front door, step outside, and then all of a sudden,
the front door opens, and I thought at first it
was John. Napoleon goes flying off the couch, barking and
running toward the front door, and then I hear a
woman's voice, but the lights were turned off in the entryway,

(02:22:43):
so I didn't see who it was. And for some reason,
I thought it might've been John's wife because he had
been talking to her. She lived in Utah, and he
couldn't go to Utah for some legal reason at that time.
So but then she came into view and I recognized
her as Deanna, and it was kind of awkward.

Speaker 3 (02:22:59):
I actually was a little bit.

Speaker 4 (02:23:00):
Scared because of the things that Travis had said about
her and I mean, all the information I had was
from Travis and the Hughes about her, and most.

Speaker 3 (02:23:07):
Of it was negative.

Speaker 4 (02:23:09):
So she said hi, and I said I'd never officially
met her or even interacted with her and I personally,
so I s I said, you're Diana, right, She said yeah,
and I said I'm Jodie. She said I know who
you are, and not in a rude way or anything,
just kind of just brief and then all of a sudden,
she ran upstairs, or she said I She ran upstairs

(02:23:30):
into his room and shut the door and stayed in
there for about ten minutes. But by this time, when
we were in East Mason, she lived in North Phoenix.
I told her Travis isn't here, and she said I know,
so she knew he wasn't home, but she came over
to his house and locks in the door and ran
up to his room and shut the door and locked
herself in there for ten minutes.

Speaker 3 (02:23:48):
So I didn't know what to do.

Speaker 4 (02:23:49):
I just sat down on the couch and waited, kept
watching TV. And about ten minutes later, maybe fifteen, she
comes out of the room, comes downstairs, goes into his
office and shuts the door there. And I don't know
if she locked it or not. I think Napoleon went
into the office with her that time, and I'm thinking,

(02:24:10):
what's going on? So I just waited, and then she
came out of the office and walked into the kitchen
and looked around. And I, unfortunately I didn't scale the
recipe down. It was a restaurant recipe, so I had
tons of cookies already that I didn't think to refrigerate
the dough. So she's looking around and there's cookies everywhere,
and there's more in the oven and more on the tray.

Speaker 3 (02:24:29):
Riding in the oven.

Speaker 4 (02:24:31):
And I offered her some cookies, and she declined, and
she said she was just in town for someone's birthday
and that she just came by because she was looking
for a book.

Speaker 3 (02:24:43):
And so after that she left empty handed.

Speaker 2 (02:24:49):
Okay, And in terms of what did Travis comment on
Diana's reaction to that event? Yes, did he lead you
to believe that she was upset or angry?

Speaker 6 (02:25:08):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (02:25:10):
Did you see that in her behavior?

Speaker 3 (02:25:14):
No, she seemed friendly. Other than that. Other than her behavior,
her demeanor seemed kind of normal. Nice.

Speaker 2 (02:25:24):
Sounds similar to the situation when you walked in and
Lisa Andrews saw you, right.

Speaker 3 (02:25:31):
Yeah, except Dana did. Internally she stayed for a while.

Speaker 2 (02:25:38):
You talk about Travis didn't want to deal with Deanna's her,
Deanna's interrogations and emotions. You never saw any evidence of
Deanna interrogating Travis about this? Is that accurate?

Speaker 3 (02:26:00):
In terrogating Travis about what about you?

Speaker 2 (02:26:03):
Or about anything?

Speaker 4 (02:26:05):
I actually saw one incident when we were on our
first history trip. Or I saw him venting to his
grandmother over the phone about the incident. Okay, but not her,
nothing from her exactly, but directly know.

Speaker 2 (02:26:22):
You say right here this paragraph beginning with well, well,
I'm gonna make it easier for you, and it looks
like you're telling him that you wanna kind of end
your friendship. Is that accurate?

Speaker 3 (02:26:42):
No, I didn't want to end our friendship. I just
wanted to.

Speaker 4 (02:26:47):
I didn't want him to feel obligated to be my
friend in order to spare my feelings. I wanted him
to only be my friend if that was his desire
to be, not because he felt he had to be.

Speaker 2 (02:26:57):
You say that in contract you weren't private or secretive
about your friendship with him. Is that what you're telling
us here?

Speaker 3 (02:27:10):
Yeah, there's a type, I think in the second sentence,
But yeah, I was. I was not ashamed to call
him my friend, you.

Speaker 2 (02:27:19):
Said, you know, you even go specifically in the bottom
of the page. You say, you see, I had no
shame in being your friend, did you? Were you under
the impression that Travis was ashamed of having you as
a friend.

Speaker 3 (02:27:36):
I got that impression from him about the Hughes.

Speaker 2 (02:27:43):
If anyone ever tried to guilt me or judge me,
you would put them in their place. You were proud
of Travis.

Speaker 3 (02:27:52):
You cared about him, right, yeah, I wouldn't let anyone
say anything negative about him.

Speaker 2 (02:27:58):
In fact, you didn't really like to say anything negative
about him or to him, did you.

Speaker 3 (02:28:04):
That's correct?

Speaker 5 (02:28:07):
And this was in May.

Speaker 2 (02:28:12):
Two eight, right, yeah. You tell him that you care
very much about your happiness and well be still meant
a lot to you at that time too, Right, Yeah,
My cared about him so much, so it sounds like
that you were willing to sacrifice your or at least

(02:28:36):
back off of your friendship if it was better for him.

Speaker 3 (02:28:43):
I wasn't sure specifically what that might have entailed, but
I wanted him to know that he didn't have to
I didn't want him to feel the stress that he
might have felt just by being my friend.

Speaker 2 (02:28:58):
You also say.

Speaker 5 (02:29:00):
I love you.

Speaker 2 (02:29:03):
And I will always be here for you as your
friend in confident May sixteen, two thousand eight. You say
you love him right, Yes? Did you mean that, of course?
Did you also mean the part where you say you
will always be here as his friend in confident?

Speaker 3 (02:29:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:29:31):
After mister Alexander received do you recall what the next
form of contact was? Did you speak on the phone?

Speaker 3 (02:29:42):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (02:29:43):
Text message? Email? Do you recall.

Speaker 3 (02:29:47):
When I began composing that email. We were already chatting
and he was already irritated over something, So I told
him I think it was about the subject of the
link on his website.

Speaker 4 (02:30:05):
So that was another thing that just made me think
he doesn't want to be public, even about our friendship.
So that's when I said, well, I told him, hold on,
I'm gonna I'm writing you an email. So I wrote
out the email. He was upset at the prospect of
receiving the email because he's wanted to know why I
would send him an email about something that he knows

(02:30:27):
is going that I know is going to make him upset,
And I explained to him that whether or not it
makes you upset, you're my friend and this is something
I have to tell you. So I made that email.
I didn't think it was very mean or aggressive or hostile,
but he took offense to it and it led to
another fight.

Speaker 2 (02:30:47):
S Now you say this led to another fight. Was
this fight a verbal fight or was this in some
other fashion?

Speaker 4 (02:30:56):
It was just an argument that took place over that
same chat conversation which continued.

Speaker 2 (02:31:03):
And is this the one where he calls you with
three whole wonder and a slut?

Speaker 3 (02:31:07):
No, this is a different one.

Speaker 2 (02:31:08):
Okay. Do you recall what he says to you in
this conversation?

Speaker 3 (02:31:12):
Not particularly, He was just very upset, mean and will
not mean me, not as mean as he's been or
would be afterward.

Speaker 4 (02:31:19):
But he claimed that he didn't get what I was
trying to say, and he said, are you trying to
say I should put a link up or And I said, no,
that's not what I'm trying to say. Reread it and
he said, I read it twice and I still don't
get it.

Speaker 3 (02:31:33):
I said, well, I don't see how more plainly I
can explain it to you.

Speaker 2 (02:31:39):
So I mean, okay, did you speak did the two
of you have a phone conversation after this email was sent?

Speaker 4 (02:31:52):
I clicked out of the window before he could type
anything else that was going to be mean. And that
made it mad because it was sort of the equivalent.

Speaker 2 (02:32:01):
Of hang up on him.

Speaker 4 (02:32:03):
And we either started texting or talking on the phone,
I don't remember which, and it was just a little
more of the fight until it tapered off or we
stopped communicating for that time being.

Speaker 2 (02:32:16):
And you say tapered off. You've told us in the
past that these arguments, disagreements wound up in the end
turning of a sexual nature. Did that happen this time?

Speaker 3 (02:32:32):
I don't remember on that particular one, how it ended
that you.

Speaker 2 (02:32:37):
Want to.

Speaker 3 (02:32:39):
All right, ladies and gentlemen, we'll take.

Speaker 1 (02:32:41):
The evening recess at this time. Please be back tomorrow morning,
ten thirty am. Remember the admonition have a nice evening.

Speaker 3 (02:32:49):
You are excused.

Speaker 1 (02:32:52):
I'll step do.

Speaker 3 (02:32:55):
Anything else.

Speaker 1 (02:32:56):
Counsel, how can't I see him