Day 3

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
To be seated.

Speaker 2 (00:00):
The record will show the presence of the jury to
defend in an all council.

Speaker 3 (00:06):
Ms.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Connor, you are still in the road to understand. Yes,
mister Martinez, you may continue your.

Speaker 4 (00:11):
Name, plase, Heather Connor, Judge.

Speaker 5 (00:15):
I had to exhibit two forty nine marked as are
close to before that I was asked to substitute a
smaller version of itself for the record.

Speaker 4 (00:27):
To forty nine is now eight and a half on
that moment.

Speaker 5 (00:33):
Now see one of the exists in forty.

Speaker 4 (00:38):
And when we your name your name police, it's Heather Connor.
And you were testifying here previously, correct, Yes, well we
left off uh last time Thursday. We were talking about
this area here, correct, Yes, we were, and specifically we
were talking about what was inside event inside of that closet.

Speaker 5 (00:56):
Correct, Yes, we were. Is it uh two nineteen and
tell me if you recognize, yes I do.

Speaker 6 (01:09):
What is it?

Speaker 5 (01:10):
This is a business card that was collected as item
number ten LB.

Speaker 4 (01:16):
And just for an illustrative purposes, if we can then
go to our diagram is do we see the number
ten there? Yes, and that's where that was collected from.

Speaker 5 (01:25):
That's correct.

Speaker 6 (01:26):
What is it?

Speaker 5 (01:29):
What is it?

Speaker 4 (01:29):
It's a business card for whom Do you know.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Who it's for?

Speaker 4 (01:35):
I believe?

Speaker 5 (01:37):
Well may I see it? Please? Says Travis Alexander on
the card.

Speaker 4 (01:43):
I remember for the admission of exhibit any objection nine,
your honored nineteen is admitted.

Speaker 7 (01:50):
To nineteen.

Speaker 4 (01:53):
Basically that's what the card looks like.

Speaker 5 (01:55):
Correct, Yeah, I'm who?

Speaker 4 (01:58):
Are you? Show you some other photograph? These exhibits uh
once seventeens to one forty take on them? Can you

(02:35):
artronize them? Yes?

Speaker 5 (02:36):
I do?

Speaker 4 (02:37):
What are they? Uh?

Speaker 5 (02:38):
These are photographs of the hallway that is between the
master bedroom and bathroom, as well as photos from inside
the master bedroom and bathroom and items and uh, the
overall appearance of those areas.

Speaker 4 (02:54):
If we take a look at that exhibit number two
forty nine is the area that we're talking about? This
hallway here? Is that what we're talking about?

Speaker 5 (03:05):
That's correct?

Speaker 4 (03:08):
And were these saving the back during the investigation in
June of two thousand and.

Speaker 5 (03:12):
Eight, Yes, they were.

Speaker 4 (03:14):
Move for the admission of exhibits one seventeen through.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
No objection, Exhibits one seventeen through one are admitted.

Speaker 3 (03:29):
Man' let's take a.

Speaker 4 (03:30):
Look at that exhibit one seventeen. What are we looking
at here?

Speaker 5 (03:38):
That is red staining on the tile floor in the bathroom.

Speaker 4 (03:42):
All right, we're specifically in the bathroom, are we talking about? Here?

Speaker 5 (03:47):
From this view, it appears to be close to the
closet that was in the bathroom.

Speaker 4 (03:54):
If we then take a look at Exhibit one eighteen,
does that show you where that spot is? Yes?

Speaker 5 (04:00):
Yes, it does.

Speaker 4 (04:01):
All right, so let's go back to one seventeen. Where
is this spot If we then look at our diagram.

Speaker 5 (04:12):
That would be where the swinging door is right here
in that region.

Speaker 4 (04:17):
Yes, And.

Speaker 5 (04:22):
This right here is what that's the door for that closet.

Speaker 4 (04:27):
So where were you? How are you taking this photograph?

Speaker 5 (04:33):
It's a bird's eye view of that region of that staining.

Speaker 4 (04:39):
And right here is what do you know what that is?

Speaker 8 (04:42):
Right there?

Speaker 5 (04:42):
That's the cardboard box that was inside of the closet.

Speaker 4 (04:49):
Exhibit one eighteen. What do we have here?

Speaker 5 (04:54):
You see a portion of that same staining area and
you see a better view of the cardboard b from
inside the closet in the master bathroom.

Speaker 4 (05:03):
And what is this right here? Do you know what
that is?

Speaker 5 (05:07):
Did you know that or do you have an idea?
What that is in the photographs. It appears it appears
to be read substance of some kinds. All right, let's.

Speaker 4 (05:20):
Take a look at the exhibit number one nineteen. Do
you see this stain here?

Speaker 5 (05:28):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (05:28):
I do. If we go back to exhibit number twenty eighteen,
do we see that same stain?

Speaker 5 (05:36):
You see a portion of that same stain? Yes, where
in the lower right region.

Speaker 4 (05:41):
So now what are we looking at?

Speaker 5 (05:45):
This is a view of the tile floor in the
bathroom and heading towards the hallway, as well as evidence
placards marking items five through seven that were to be collected.

Speaker 4 (05:56):
And if we say this is five, what number is
this one that would be sick? And this one is
where number seven is? Right, that's correct. There are also
some placards further up here.

Speaker 5 (06:06):
Correct, I do see those? Now?

Speaker 6 (06:08):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (06:12):
Where does this room leading to? Right here?

Speaker 5 (06:16):
That is the master bedroom closet?

Speaker 4 (06:19):
And what is this down here?

Speaker 5 (06:23):
The master bathroom or excuse me bedroom?

Speaker 4 (06:26):
And if we're looking at it this way, where is
the body.

Speaker 5 (06:33):
Would be from this vantage point would be to your right,
It would be this way, correct, Yes, that's number one nineteen,
and the vantage point is from here this way, correct?

Speaker 4 (06:50):
Yes, that's correct, and to get this issue of the
placards taken care of. You said this was the five,
this was six, and this was correct. Yes, just sort
of to see if we can follow what is five?
What do you repres indicate?

Speaker 5 (07:07):
Five is? May I see the report that was submitted
shirt last Thursday.

Speaker 4 (07:13):
That exhibit seventy six and see if you look at it,
and then I will re ask you the question.

Speaker 5 (07:21):
I think it was number five possible hairs and or
fibers that were collected from inside the bathroom, and number
six is a possible hair and number seven is also
possible fibers or hair.

Speaker 4 (07:35):
Let's take a look at that exhibit number seventh. I'm
sorry at one point, and what are we seeing here?

Speaker 5 (07:45):
It's more of a mid range view of the tile
floor in that hallway and the items marked as five,
six and seven.

Speaker 4 (07:53):
And then we also see what is this is this
sustaining here that we have here?

Speaker 5 (07:58):
Yes, there were quite a bit of staining visible in
this photograph one shows us what a closer view of
the item that was items that were collected as number five.

Speaker 4 (08:11):
Lb right, And what is this area.

Speaker 5 (08:15):
Here that's the carpeting inside of the closet.

Speaker 4 (08:20):
And without Wow, what is this right here? What is
this called?

Speaker 5 (08:26):
I would call from personal experience a baseboard? All right?

Speaker 4 (08:29):
One? Two?

Speaker 5 (08:29):
What are we looking at there? That was a possible
that is a possible shoe impression that was found on
the tile floor in the bathroom. And what number is
that that you wand it was labeled impression number one
when it was photographed with the scale.

Speaker 4 (08:46):
And if we take a look at this diagram, do
you know where it was found? Yes?

Speaker 5 (08:54):
It is? Go ahead, it is. You see a bubble
that says shoe impression in an oval with an arrow
pointing to where it was somewhat between five and six.

Speaker 4 (09:04):
You said that it was labeled number one, right it was? Well,
if I go down here to this diagram which is
Exhibit two fifty two forty nine, see this right there,
I do. Isn't that a number one already?

Speaker 5 (09:22):
It is?

Speaker 4 (09:22):
And what is number one here?

Speaker 5 (09:25):
That was item number one lb? That was a cartridge casing.

Speaker 4 (09:30):
Okay, So what's how do you differentiate so that we
can keep them straight?

Speaker 5 (09:37):
Some items that are not able to be collected will
be labeled with a letter, some with a number, and
some may be labeled with a combination of the two.
In this case, latent impressions, finger and palm impressions were
labeled with letters. The shoe impression was labeled impression number one.
It was just a manner for us to keep track

(09:59):
of of what was being photographed.

Speaker 4 (10:02):
I understand that. How do we know that number one
isn't the same as kept cartridge casing? How do you
keep track of that? Do the photographs assist you in that?
Is that how that's done?

Speaker 5 (10:10):
Photographs and report correct? All right? Exhibit number one twenty three.
What are we looking at here? That is a close
up view of a portion of the possible hair that
was collected as item number six lb.

Speaker 4 (10:24):
Is this the hair that we're talking about? Possible?

Speaker 5 (10:28):
That's a portion of it?

Speaker 4 (10:29):
Yes. Exhibit one twenty four shows.

Speaker 5 (10:32):
Us what the placard has been moved to show more
of that hair along the floor or possible hair.

Speaker 4 (10:42):
Exhibit one twenty five. What do we see here?

Speaker 5 (10:50):
That's an overall view of the hallway and floor, including
the red staining from the hallway in the master bathroom.

Speaker 4 (10:57):
How is this different from anything that we've been seeing?

Speaker 5 (11:00):
There are no evidence placards in this In.

Speaker 4 (11:02):
Terms of processing a scene or investigating a scene. How
in this photograph that we have here, what is the
process whereby the photographs are taken and what is the
sequence of the photographs taken in the placards place?

Speaker 5 (11:15):
Why don't you explain that to me absolutely? When we
first arrive at a scene, we will take overall entry
photographs of the residence or wherever the scene is to
document its condition when we arrived. There won't be any
evidence placards or anything in those photographs, so that it's
showing the location of items within the residence or scene

(11:38):
without us having introduced anything by the crime scene investigator.
Once items have been identified as needing to be collected,
we will take additional photographs of those items. We will
mark those items with evidence placards so that we can
keep track of which item is which in the photographs
and in diagrams for example. And additional photographs will be

(12:01):
taken of the scene again with those evidence placards in
the photograph that's for later reference. So the first photographs
have no evidence marking and the second photographs will have
evidence marking. Sets of photographs.

Speaker 4 (12:17):
I look at exhibit number one twenty five. What did
I want you to note this area here? Do you
see that right there? Yes? What is that? Where does
that lead to?

Speaker 5 (12:29):
That is the closet, the linen type closet that was
in the master bathroom.

Speaker 4 (12:35):
And we've talked about the trim here at the bottom,
haven't we Yes, we have. And then also take a
look at this for example, you see that right there? Yes,
And I'll bring it up just so that we could
look at it. See that.

Speaker 5 (12:44):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (12:46):
If we then go to exhibit number one twenty six
to orient yourself, do you see this right here? Yes?

Speaker 5 (12:55):
I do?

Speaker 4 (12:56):
And this right here?

Speaker 3 (12:58):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (12:59):
Looking at the what area are we looking at?

Speaker 5 (13:02):
There? That is a portion of the west wall, near
the bottom of the wall in the bathroom, near the
linen closet.

Speaker 4 (13:13):
And in looking at this, these do appear to be
a little bit more red or brown or dark than
this over here. Do you see that?

Speaker 5 (13:24):
I see that?

Speaker 4 (13:24):
Yes? Is that a function of a camera or is
that how they were?

Speaker 5 (13:29):
These were as the scene appeared when we took the photographs.

Speaker 4 (13:33):
The photographs were taken, right, I understand that. But is
this because of the photo of the camera or is
it true that this was darker than this when you
were out there? I'm asking from your personal observation. Oh,
I'm asking for personal observations.

Speaker 5 (13:49):
There were differences in the color.

Speaker 4 (13:51):
Yes, and Exhibit one twenty seven. What are we seeing here?

Speaker 5 (14:00):
This is a view of the baseboard, wall and tile
floor in the hallway bathroom, the hallway between the bathroom
and bedroom.

Speaker 4 (14:08):
And what is this allway here?

Speaker 5 (14:09):
Is that right there?

Speaker 4 (14:12):
What's it is that carpet?

Speaker 5 (14:13):
It appears to be carpet.

Speaker 4 (14:14):
Well, why don't you take a look at it so
that you can tell us you were out there right?

Speaker 5 (14:19):
Absolutely, I want you to take.

Speaker 4 (14:21):
And tell us what that is.

Speaker 5 (14:22):
That is the carpet in the She.

Speaker 7 (14:26):
Hasn't testified to testing any of it.

Speaker 5 (14:28):
We'll ask another question.

Speaker 4 (14:30):
What is this right over here?

Speaker 5 (14:31):
That's the carpet in the master bedroom.

Speaker 9 (14:34):
Okay?

Speaker 4 (14:36):
And again is this a true app depiction of this
area and whatever marks are there as it existed back then? Yes?

Speaker 5 (14:46):
Is it A one twenty eight? What is this up here?
That is the door leading to the linen of the
linen closet in that hall in that bathroom.

Speaker 4 (14:58):
And this right here is what direction is this east
or west?

Speaker 5 (15:04):
That's the west wall. And this right here is red
staining on the carpet in the master bedroom.

Speaker 4 (15:11):
It is the master bedroom, then correct, that is correct?
If that's the west wall?

Speaker 5 (15:15):
What wall is this one right here? The east wall?

Speaker 4 (15:18):
To get to the body from this area here, where
would a person have to go? Starting here to get
to the body?

Speaker 5 (15:29):
You would walk forward to the area near the linen
closet and look to your left.

Speaker 4 (15:35):
And if we look at exhibit number to forty nine,
because the direction all is up here is north, how
would they be able to walk?

Speaker 5 (15:48):
You would walk south and then to the east.

Speaker 4 (15:52):
I'm looking at this diagram. I'm going to bring it
in pretty close so that way, and if you need to,
I'll bring it up to you. Okay, from what is
that number there? Do you know? How can you read
that there? Or trying to?

Speaker 5 (16:05):
Eleven four inches is what I can see? And over
here on the right is what twelve feet six inches?

Speaker 4 (16:15):
Just take a look at Exhibit one. First of all,
which wall is this east or west? Will you zoom
back for me see that up there?

Speaker 5 (16:26):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (16:27):
Okay? So which wall is this right here?

Speaker 5 (16:31):
That's the west wall?

Speaker 4 (16:33):
And we do see some placards down here? Right? Yes?
Eight and nine? Right, that's correct? What are eight and nine.

Speaker 5 (16:45):
Possible hairs?

Speaker 4 (16:45):
And or fibers, And where does this lead to the
entrance one with the carpet, Where does that go to?

Speaker 5 (16:55):
The carpet is the master bedroom. That's a view leading
into the hallway leading to the master bathroom.

Speaker 4 (17:01):
And these are the lack of a better term, these
are the patterns or the staining that was there in
June when you were out there at the scene. Right, yeah,
take a look at Exhibit one, p. Thirty What is
this right here?

Speaker 5 (17:22):
That is the entry to the master bedroom closet.

Speaker 4 (17:25):
And do you know what this is down here?

Speaker 5 (17:27):
Those were sandals, flip flop type sandals that were collected.

Speaker 4 (17:33):
And then as we look here this door up here,
what is that?

Speaker 5 (17:39):
That is the door to the linen closet that's inside
of the master bathroom.

Speaker 4 (17:45):
You see this down here that's trimmed down at the bottom, Yes,
I do. What is to just to the right of that,
What is to the right of it.

Speaker 5 (17:53):
That's the master bedroom door that leads to the outside
to the loft in the upstairs.

Speaker 4 (17:59):
Cry Exhibit one thirty one. What are we looking at there?

Speaker 5 (18:07):
That is red staining that was on the carpet in
the master bedroom.

Speaker 4 (18:11):
Is that a closeup of it?

Speaker 5 (18:13):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (18:13):
It is.

Speaker 5 (18:15):
A closer view of it.

Speaker 4 (18:20):
Exhibit one thirty two. First of all, what wall are
we looking at there? That is the east wall and
these are, for example, the patterns that were there when
you were out there in June of two thousand and eight.

Speaker 5 (18:33):
Correct, yes they are.

Speaker 4 (18:38):
Exhibit one thirty three. What do we see here?

Speaker 5 (18:43):
That is a different vantage point of some of the
red staining that was on the east wall of the hallway.

Speaker 4 (18:51):
Let's take a look at Exhibit one thirty four. What
is this area here? What is this? What does that
mean to.

Speaker 5 (19:00):
The hallway that leads to the master bathroom and this
story leads where that is the master bedroom door. You're
seeing a view of it from inside the master bedroom
looking out.

Speaker 4 (19:11):
And this lock that's on this door, can you describe
the locking mechanism from the inside for me?

Speaker 5 (19:17):
Yes? It is a flat piece of metal that is turned.

Speaker 4 (19:23):
So can it lock from the inside?

Speaker 5 (19:24):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (19:25):
Do you need a key to lock it from the inside, No,
you don't. Do you need a key to get into
it from the outside?

Speaker 5 (19:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (19:34):
Exhibit number one thirty five is showing us what.

Speaker 5 (19:40):
That is a view of a stain that was identified
as nine and Exhibit one thirty six is what that
is a close up of that stain identified as nine.

Speaker 4 (19:54):
Let's take a look at Exhibit one thirty eight, see
that I do. First of all, I want to start
with the door over here. You see that right there? Yes,
in the previous photograph we saw it and it was white.
What's all this dirty black stuff on it?

Speaker 5 (20:12):
That is lately processing powder? Fingerprint powder?

Speaker 4 (20:18):
And then if we look at the left of this photograph,
first of all, what wall is that? That is the
west wall and we see all this black stuff also
on there?

Speaker 5 (20:30):
What is that that is also processing powder? And who
put that processing powder on there?

Speaker 4 (20:36):
Or were you there when that was put on there?

Speaker 6 (20:38):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (20:40):
In terms of processing the scene, you told us that, well,
your first takeover alls without.

Speaker 5 (20:45):
Placards, right, yes, And you told us placards are put
down and then you take photographs, right, that's correct.

Speaker 4 (20:51):
In terms of when the black powder is applied, when
does that come in in this process? Is that before
any photographs or after the placards are taken?

Speaker 5 (21:02):
How does that work? Typically, latent processing will occur after
overall and evidentiary photos of items marked with placards are taken.
There are times where we may identify items to be
collected later on after we've already begun processing. But typically
processing will be done after photographs have been taken and

(21:26):
the evidence items have been collected.

Speaker 4 (21:28):
Why is that.

Speaker 5 (21:32):
Processing for layton prints can be a very messy process?

Speaker 4 (21:35):
And will it then affect other items that may be there?
Is that if you do it first, it could?

Speaker 6 (21:42):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (21:43):
Exhibit number one thirty seven. What do we see there?

Speaker 5 (21:49):
That is a view of the hallway leading to the master.

Speaker 4 (21:52):
Bathroom And does it show us the messiness on the
right there?

Speaker 5 (21:58):
Yes, it does.

Speaker 4 (22:02):
Exhibit one thirty nine. What are we looking at there?

Speaker 5 (22:05):
That is a view of the west wall in that
hallway bathroom the bathroom hallway? Pardon me? And there is
a section of the wall that has a square drawn
around it?

Speaker 4 (22:19):
Is that this right here? Yes? And why is that significant?

Speaker 5 (22:25):
Contained within that drawn square? Is a latent palm impression
that was developed on the wall.

Speaker 4 (22:32):
Take a look at Exhibit two thirty nine. Recognize it? Yes?

Speaker 10 (22:50):
I do?

Speaker 4 (22:51):
What is it?

Speaker 5 (22:52):
This is the piece of wall that was cut out
and collected as item number seventy seven lb.

Speaker 4 (22:57):
And this is what we're looking at in this photograph.

Speaker 5 (23:01):
While it's still in the wall.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yes, in the objection to thirty nine submitted mister Martinez.
We're going to take the noon recess at this time.
Ladies and gentlemen, please be back in the designated area
at one twenty five. Please remember the admonition.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
You are excused.

Speaker 6 (23:41):
Please be seated.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
The record will show the presence of the jury, the defendant,
and all counsel.

Speaker 6 (23:46):
Ladies and gentlemen.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
I apologize for the delay in starting this afternoon. The
state is requesting to take a witness out of order,
mister Martinez. The state may call its next witness the state.

Speaker 4 (23:59):
Can you spell your last name?

Speaker 5 (24:04):
Please?

Speaker 7 (24:05):
Hrn's right here?

Speaker 6 (24:09):
Do you do?

Speaker 4 (24:09):
Saw me? Swear?

Speaker 3 (24:10):
The testimony you're about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing about the truth.

Speaker 5 (24:13):
So how about you? God?

Speaker 2 (24:14):
I do.

Speaker 10 (24:17):
Your name, sir?

Speaker 7 (24:18):
Doctor Kevin Horne?

Speaker 4 (24:20):
And who do you work for?

Speaker 7 (24:21):
Mericopa County Medical Examiner's Office?

Speaker 4 (24:24):
How long have you worked there?

Speaker 7 (24:25):
Almost twelve years?

Speaker 4 (24:27):
And what is it that you do over there at
the Medical Examiner's Office.

Speaker 7 (24:31):
I am a medical examiner. I'm charged with examining deceased
individuals and certifying a cause matter of death within the county.

Speaker 4 (24:39):
And in terms of your education, where did you go
to medical.

Speaker 7 (24:41):
School by the University of Maryland. And what year did
you graduate nineteen ninety five.

Speaker 4 (24:47):
When did you begin working for the Medical Examiner's office
again two thousand and one, and drawing your attention back
to June of two thousand and eight, did you have
occasion to conduct a medical examination on the body of T.
Travis Alexander.

Speaker 7 (25:01):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (25:02):
With regard to an examination of an individual such as this,
what are the first steps that are taken.

Speaker 7 (25:09):
The body is received under seal. It's in a sealed
body bag with a number that's unique to that case.
That seal is broken to my presence, the bag is opened,
and then we examine the outside of the body, collecting evidence,
performing photographs, and then we move on to an external
examination documenting injuries, and then an internal examination or an autopsy.

Speaker 4 (25:32):
In this particular case, were there any X RAYCE taken? Yes?

Speaker 5 (25:37):
And what is the purpose of the X race?

Speaker 7 (25:39):
Mostly to document internal trauma and or projectiles that we
may need to recover.

Speaker 5 (25:45):
I'm going to show you some photographs.

Speaker 4 (25:49):
Take a look at the exhibits. One seventy food, one
seventy grace. Do you recognize us and are these photographs
that were taken as part of your medical examination of tracks. Yes,

(26:10):
and specifically, do they include the identification photograph as well
as the X rays? Yes, I mean for the admission
of exhibits one set in the injection.

Speaker 6 (26:21):
One number one seventy council appro.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
Exhibits one seventy through one seventy three.

Speaker 4 (26:30):
Are those a little bit Exhibit one seventy And what
is this number that's here.

Speaker 7 (26:41):
On the left here zero eight three five three two,
that's our case number for the year.

Speaker 4 (26:48):
Is that the same as the number that came in
the bag, in the sealed bag or is that a
different number.

Speaker 7 (26:52):
There's an individual sealed number on the bag, but the
case number is separate from that.

Speaker 4 (26:57):
And this is the face identifying the individual that was
brought in. Correct. Yes, the radiographs are the X rays
that were done in this particular case. Were they done
before you conducted your exterior examination.

Speaker 7 (27:09):
Or afterwards before?

Speaker 4 (27:11):
Let's take a look then at exhibit number one seventy one.
And what are we looking at here?

Speaker 7 (27:20):
We're looking at a frontal X ray of the head.
And on the left side, I'm sorry, on the right
side of the X ray you can see a projectile.

Speaker 4 (27:27):
When you say you said the left side. That would
be the left side of mister Alexander.

Speaker 7 (27:31):
Correct, his left our right. As we look at the X.

Speaker 4 (27:34):
Ray Exhibit number one seventy two, what are we looking
at here?

Speaker 7 (27:42):
We're looking at a side view of the head again
showing the projectile and.

Speaker 4 (27:46):
This is where the projectile ended up.

Speaker 8 (27:48):
Correct.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
Yes, and it is on the left side, even though
this is the right aspect.

Speaker 7 (27:53):
Yes, it's his left cheek area.

Speaker 4 (27:57):
In looking at one seventy three, this is a radiograph,
an X ray of the top or the the the
top portion or the chest portion. Why was this taken
or does the medical Examiner's office just take a full
view X ray of everybody that comes in.

Speaker 7 (28:13):
We usually do a full series of uh especially in homicides,
we'll do a full series of X rays to look
for any sort of hidden projectiles or any sort of
especially in a stabbing case, we'll look for the tip
of a knife or something like that, something that could
harm us as we're doing the examination.

Speaker 4 (28:27):
And is there anything that is shown in this X
ray as it applies to the stabbing or or the shooting.

Speaker 7 (28:35):
No, there's no metal fragments.

Speaker 4 (28:49):
As a part of your examination, the external examination. Did
you take a look at the hands? Yes, take a
look at exhibits one seventy four through once eighty three
and see if that depicts photographs of the throne of
the energy. Answer yes, I remember for the admission of

(29:18):
exhibits one seventy fourth.

Speaker 5 (29:20):
Through one.

Speaker 6 (29:23):
Any objection, no objection.

Speaker 4 (29:25):
Unit.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
Exhibits one seventy four through one eighty three are admitted.

Speaker 4 (29:32):
Let's take a look at is there one seventy four?

Speaker 5 (29:39):
What are we looking at here at the back of
the right hand, Sir.

Speaker 4 (29:43):
One of the things that we know in this case
is that the body was in its home for a
while or days before that was actually discovered. So are
you was there any decomposition that was associated with the body,
and are we looking at any in this particular photograph
or was it other parts of the body?

Speaker 7 (30:04):
Yes, there was a state of what we would call
intermediate decomposition or the middle stage of decomposition, and it
involve the whole body. And in this picture, in particular,
we can see green discoloration of the hand and also
early what we call mummification of the fingertips.

Speaker 4 (30:18):
And if you take a look over here on the thumb,
why is that dark or I guess in the rest.

Speaker 7 (30:25):
Of the hand it's dried.

Speaker 4 (30:28):
And is that part of the mummification process that you
do describe for me?

Speaker 7 (30:31):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (30:32):
Are there any injuries to the upper portion of mister
Alexander's right hand.

Speaker 7 (30:37):
No, Let's take a look at.

Speaker 4 (30:40):
The exhibit one seventy five. Now the fingers are extended,
and we do see that there is some darkness on
each of those fingers. Do you see fingernail areas? Do
you see that? Yes? What causes that?

Speaker 7 (30:55):
Again? That's decompositional?

Speaker 4 (30:57):
And are there any injuries on the top of the art.

Speaker 7 (31:02):
There is an injury to the thumb, which I don't
think is really clearly visible in this photograph.

Speaker 4 (31:07):
All right, Let's then take a look at exhibit number
one seventy six, which shows us what are we looking
at here?

Speaker 7 (31:13):
This is the palm of the right hand, and I
think there may be another picture that shows us better.
But there is an incized or a cutting injury of
the tip of the right thumb.

Speaker 4 (31:23):
And Exhibit one seventy seven is that what you're talking about?

Speaker 7 (31:28):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (31:29):
In looking at injuries, are you able to tell whether
they were made before dead, after death, or at the
time of death? As part of the examination.

Speaker 7 (31:37):
Sometimes it depends on the case.

Speaker 4 (31:39):
How about this one right here? Could you tell by
looking at it and conducting an analysis whether or not
this was done.

Speaker 5 (31:45):
Either before death, at the time of death, or after death.

Speaker 7 (31:48):
I think it was done before death. There is hemorrhage
associated with it.

Speaker 4 (31:52):
When you say that there's hemorrhage associated with it, explain
that a little.

Speaker 5 (31:55):
Bit more to me, does it?

Speaker 4 (32:00):
What is it that causes a person to hemorrhage if
they're alive, which is what I think you're telling me.

Speaker 7 (32:05):
Well, if you have a heartbeat, you're going to have
blood flow to an area that's injured, and so you
will have blood flow from an injury. So if the
skin is cut or torn, there will be a great
deal of blood that will come from an injury, and
a living person a deceased person will lose some blood,
but not a great deal.

Speaker 4 (32:21):
So in this one right here, it is your opinion
that mister Alexander was alive when this was inflicted.

Speaker 7 (32:26):
Yes, taking into consideration what I said, and also in
context with other injuries.

Speaker 4 (32:30):
That are on the hands, and what kind of injury
is this one that we're looking at.

Speaker 7 (32:36):
It's a sharp force injury. It's caused by a blade
or a sharp forced object.

Speaker 4 (32:42):
If an individual, let's get away a little bit from
a knife right now and just focus on the individual
maybe who is dragged or is hit. That's the kind
of thing. If an individual is dead and somebody applies
some force HiT's a are they going to bruise necessarily
or not?

Speaker 7 (33:04):
There may be something that would look like a bruise,
but it will not be as large or as and
the color will be different than a deceased person because
there's no blood float to the area, So you'll actually
just breaking blood vessels in that area, and whatever blood
happens to be there will ooz out, but there won't
be blood pumped into the area.

Speaker 4 (33:22):
And part of the reason I asked that is I
see that there's sort of like on top of it,
a little bit of a darker area.

Speaker 5 (33:27):
Is that mummification or is that bruisy?

Speaker 7 (33:30):
It may be a combination of both. There's some darkening
underneath the nail there, but in the context of the mummification,
I can't really say for sure.

Speaker 4 (33:38):
Are you familiar with the term defensive wounds? Yes, And
they find it for me place.

Speaker 7 (33:44):
They're based largely on location in the body. If you
have injuries to the backs of the forearms or to
the palms or backs of the hands, you can have
gunshot wounds in those locations, or in the case of
an assault with a knife or an edged weapon, you
can have cut or or insized injuries to the backs
or the palms or the back of the forearm. And

(34:06):
it's consistent with someone trying to either grab the knife
or four fend off wounds or fendoff injury.

Speaker 4 (34:13):
And the way you described it, by necessity, the person
would have to be conscious and alive. Correct, Yes, And
is this that we're looking at the right, is that
a defensive.

Speaker 7 (34:24):
Wound could be Yes, consistent with that.

Speaker 4 (34:28):
Take a look now at exhibit number one, seventy eight.
What do we see here?

Speaker 7 (34:36):
It's the back of the left hand.

Speaker 4 (34:38):
And again with the back of the left hand. If
you notice this little portion right here, what is that
right there?

Speaker 7 (34:44):
It appears to be what we call a void in
the blood. Maybe there's an area of pooling the blood
the hand was resting in and the blood is not
staining that area.

Speaker 4 (34:53):
But that's not an injury. Correct, No, Exhibit one's seventy nine.
What are we looking at there?

Speaker 7 (35:01):
To the back of the left hand.

Speaker 4 (35:03):
Do we see any injuries here or not?

Speaker 7 (35:05):
You can see the edge of an injury on the
side below the thumb, the side of the hand, and
then also on the back of the thumb. So there
are two injuries that are partially visible here.

Speaker 4 (35:15):
And those injuries if we look at Exhibit one eight,
do those show those a little bit more?

Speaker 7 (35:22):
Yes? This is the palm of the left hand, again
showing from the side of the thumb near the risk.
There's a fairly deep wound that's going into the muscle. There.
There are two separate wounds of the palm below the
index finger. And then I believe there's another injury on
the thumb that we've already described.

Speaker 4 (35:43):
In looking at these just to the naked eye, and
obviously naked eye may not tell us everything. As we
compare those to the injury to the right thumb, these
seem to be a little bit deeper. Is that true
or yes? And how deep are these in comparison to
the word that we saw in the thumb.

Speaker 7 (36:03):
One of the thumb is fairly superficial. It just clips
off part of the nail. This is actually going into
the soft tissue and the muscle beneath the hand. So
it's going in a depth of about a quarter of
an inch for all three injuries.

Speaker 4 (36:14):
And if you look at this, are you able to
tell us what type of blade is doing this? Other
than that it's a knife blade.

Speaker 7 (36:20):
All I can say is that it's a sharp edged object.

Speaker 4 (36:25):
Take a look at Exhibit one eighty one, and this
has a scale to it. Correct. Yes, And so for
those of us that are really not versed in metrics,
how big would you say this one is the larger
of the two.

Speaker 7 (36:40):
That measurement in inches is one in three quarter.

Speaker 4 (36:42):
Inch and this one right here, the one down there
three quarters Taking a look at Exhibit one eighty two.
Now we're looking at those first two injuries that we describe,
the one near the wrist and the one on the
higher up on the thumb. Yes, were these also deep?

(37:03):
This one that I'm pointing to near the wrist, was
that deeper than the one on the right thumb.

Speaker 7 (37:08):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (37:09):
And if we look at one eighty three, we have
the scale there, correct?

Speaker 7 (37:15):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (37:15):
How big was that.

Speaker 7 (37:16):
One that was measured in inches? One and one half
inch and on the back of the thumb one inch.

Speaker 4 (37:25):
One of the things that we talked about with regard
to the other injury to the right hand was whether
or not they were consistent with defensive wounds in this one.
Were these consistent with defensive defensive wounds? Yes? And does
that mean that mister Alexander was alive at the time
that these injuries were inflicted?

Speaker 7 (37:44):
I believe he was.

Speaker 4 (37:46):
Would they have blad at the time.

Speaker 7 (37:48):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (37:50):
Let's take a look at.

Speaker 10 (37:52):
Exhibits one eighty four through one ninety one.

Speaker 4 (38:05):
Are you familiar with those photographs?

Speaker 7 (38:07):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (38:07):
Do they depict the injuries from mister Alexander's front area from.

Speaker 5 (38:12):
The head down to I guess.

Speaker 4 (38:15):
It would be down to this toast group. I moved
for the admission of exhibits twenty.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Four objections maybe four through one ninety one are admitted.

Speaker 5 (38:25):
Eighty more.

Speaker 4 (38:28):
Hot tallow is mister well as part of the examination
as the body measured for home?

Speaker 7 (38:36):
Yes, how's call with mister Alexander sixty nine inches that's.

Speaker 4 (38:43):
Five ft nine five foot nine, yes, And how much
did the body weigh at the time of the examination?

Speaker 7 (38:51):
Nine pounds?

Speaker 4 (38:52):
The decomposition process, does that add weight or does that
take away weight? Or does it just not affect it much?

Speaker 7 (38:59):
General you're not going to add weight, you'll take away weight,
and also in a person who's been bleeding, that will also.

Speaker 4 (39:08):
Let's take a look at Exhibit one eighty four, and
I'm interested in this area here on the right arm.
Do you see that right there, Sarah here, Yes, that
looks like it's some sort of veiny action going on
veins or something. Is that what that is or is
that something else?

Speaker 7 (39:30):
We term that marbling, and it's a decompositional change. It's
a bacterial action in the small veins under the surface
of the skin.

Speaker 4 (39:38):
How about right here in the middle of the stomach.

Speaker 7 (39:40):
That is what we call skin slippage. It's also decomposition.

Speaker 4 (39:44):
One of the things that appears to be there, and
that may not be so, but it appears that it's
The body is a little bit bloated. Do you see that?

Speaker 2 (39:52):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (39:54):
Again, is that something that's associated with decomposition or is
that really how he was in life?

Speaker 7 (40:02):
Do believe he does have a bit of bloating. He
may have been a slightly heavy set person in life,
but there is some bloating and that's from bacterial gear.

Speaker 4 (40:10):
Let's take a look at Exhibit one eight five on
the shoulder, there. Do you see that?

Speaker 7 (40:16):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (40:18):
Is that an injury there?

Speaker 7 (40:20):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (40:21):
How big is that injury? In terms of inches? I
know we have the metric scale there, but how big
is that? It's on the right shoulder.

Speaker 7 (40:29):
Just looking at the photograph, you do have an English
and a metric scale on the same side, so it's
about each of them. The largest of him is about
an inch.

Speaker 4 (40:37):
Is this a deep sort of cut or is this
sort of a grazing kind.

Speaker 7 (40:40):
Of very superficial grazing injury?

Speaker 4 (40:44):
But it would bleed? Correct?

Speaker 7 (40:45):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (40:46):
And how about this one right here that we're looking
at right there, that.

Speaker 7 (40:53):
Is characterized as a stab wound, so it's actually a
deeper wound, but it actually terminates at the breastbone, doesn't
go into the chest cavity.

Speaker 4 (41:03):
So as it was going in, it actually hit the
breastbone and did not go any further correct, right?

Speaker 8 (41:09):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (41:09):
Would this wound have been fatal, whether immediately or rapidly
or alternatively longer term?

Speaker 7 (41:16):
Not in and of itself, No, but it would bleed correct.

Speaker 5 (41:20):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (41:22):
We then go to the one right here. First of all,
how big is that one?

Speaker 7 (41:31):
Just in looking at the scale, it's about two and
a half inches in length? It's transverse across the chest
or extending horizontally across the chest. And it's also it's
a deeply insized wound. So the blade is going below
the skin, but it's not entering the chest cavity either.

Speaker 4 (41:50):
You use the term insize that I still't think you
used before. How do you define insist?

Speaker 7 (41:55):
Well, sharp force injuries are usually divided into stab wounds
and incized wounds. So a stab wound is deeper than
it is long on the surface of the skin, and
the incised wound is just the opposite. Yes, if you
take a razor and cut yourself on the skin, that's
an incised wound. But if you stab yourself with a knife,
then that's that's a deeper wound.

Speaker 4 (42:15):
And this one right here, which is sort of below
the chin and down here to the sort of the median,
can you tell me a little bit about that in
terms of whether or not this is a stab wound,
whether or not this is an incised wound. Can you
tell me about that.

Speaker 7 (42:30):
That's a stab wound? And I do think we do
have better views of it, but that one actually penetrates
a major vessel coming into the heart.

Speaker 4 (42:38):
Let me let me show you then Exhibit one eighty six.
Is that the better view of it. Yes, you said
something about it going into the vessel of the heart.
Why don't you explain to us a little bit about
what the heart is and whether or not when you
said that it stabbed the vessel of the heart, whether
it actually hit the heart, whether it hit the the
pericardium is what surrounds the heart, the sack r there,

(43:00):
the sacks, whether it hit that if you could just
sort of explain that one to us.

Speaker 7 (43:04):
But I do want to clarify first on the photograph
that it's the lower of the two wounds there, so
not the one next to the scale, but he is
the one that goes into the vessel. What this actually
does is it goes through the cartilage between the ribs
and the breastbone. There's some softer cartilage, especially in young people,
and this knife has penetrated that cartilage and gone through

(43:25):
the sack that surrounds the heart, which is the paracrdial sack,
and it has perforated or passed through the superior vena cava,
which is a major vein that comes down from the
upper body and the head and drains into the heart.
And then from there the heart beats and pushes the
blood elsewhere in the body. But it's a major vessel.

Speaker 4 (43:45):
With regard to that major vessel, and I was talking
about the tissue that incases the heart. Is that vein
inside that tissues in encases the heart or is it
outside on top of it?

Speaker 7 (43:57):
It starts out outside and enters the sack and then
enters the heart, which is fully within that sack.

Speaker 4 (44:02):
And this knife wound did it penetrate the sack and
hit this vein or not?

Speaker 7 (44:07):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (44:08):
So what happens when a stamt or when a knife
goes in and causes this amount of damage or this
type of damage.

Speaker 7 (44:16):
Well, depending on the position of the body, you may
have significant internal bleeding, or if the person is leaning
for it, they may bleed outside of the body because
there is a track leading from that vessel outside. But
this is a major vessel. It's not going to bleed
as fast as an artery, but it will bleed a
considerable amount.

Speaker 4 (44:36):
With regard to this considerable considerable amount of bleeding that's
going on, is this a womb that could kill this person?

Speaker 7 (44:44):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (44:45):
And do you have an estimate or is there any
signs out there that tells you, well, this type of womb,
given what I know about, it would take X amount
of time.

Speaker 7 (44:54):
No, it depends on so many factors. It depends on
the person's health. It depends on care that they receive.
It depends on their blood volume to begin with, and
the position of their body.

Speaker 4 (45:03):
Also with regard to a situation like that, what if
we have a person who's asleep, relaxed versus an individual
who's animating, jumping up and running around. Does that affect
the amount of blood that is being lost and how
quickly the blood is being lost.

Speaker 7 (45:19):
Yes, a person in action is going to have a
rapidly beating heart and they will lose blood more quickly.

Speaker 4 (45:24):
And other than the blood coming out through here, we
know that these others have blood. Also correct one above.

Speaker 5 (45:30):
In this one would.

Speaker 4 (45:32):
Any of these injuries and for the example this one
would what we associate with television. Would blood come out
of the mouth, the ears, or just out of the
chest area.

Speaker 7 (45:44):
It depends on what's hit inside the body. If the
lung was nicked, which is possible in this case because
we're dealing with the decomposed body, so the organs aren't
as pristine, they're not as they don't lend themselves to
examination as in a fresh individual. But if the blood,
if the lung is nicked, they can cough up blood.

(46:04):
If you have blood going into the throat area, and
he does have throat injuries as well, which we'll talk about.
All those can cause coughing up of blood or lot.

Speaker 4 (46:13):
There is death and then there's also unconsciousness. Correct, those
are two different things. Yes, with regard to this particular
wound that's here at the bottom, is that something that
would once it's inflicted, would that cause mister Alexander to
lapse into unconsciousness eventually?

Speaker 7 (46:30):
Yes, not immediately.

Speaker 4 (46:32):
When you say eventually, do you have an estimate maybe
minute seconds between the time of infliction and the time
that he would lapse into unconsciousness.

Speaker 7 (46:42):
If that were the only wound, And it's not probably
a few minutes because we're dealing with a vein and
not an artery, so it's a lower pressure system, so
blood loss is slower.

Speaker 4 (46:52):
And how about if you take a look at that
injury in connection with the things that we've seen with
regard to his hands, the defensive that we've talked about,
does that tell you or at least in terms of time.
Does that indicate whether or not there was at least
enough time for mister Alexander to attempt to defend himself
and then get these other wounds to the hand.

Speaker 7 (47:12):
With this wound of the heart, he should have been
able to get his hands up and attempt to defend himself.

Speaker 4 (47:17):
If he was in a seated position when this wound
was inflicted. Would he have the ability, even though this
was inflicted, to get up and walk somewhere or move
quickly somewhere as a matter of fact, Yes, Exhibit number
one eighty seven shows as the injury to the right shoulder.

(47:38):
Do you see that? Yes, looks more like a scratch,
doesn't it.

Speaker 7 (47:42):
It's very superficial. Yes.

Speaker 4 (47:46):
Do any of these injuries, including the one to exhibit
in Exhibit one eighty six, do any of these speak
to movement or anything like that? Or is just that's not.

Speaker 5 (47:57):
Something that these photographs show.

Speaker 7 (48:00):
Since they're on multiple parts of the body, they imply
a motion of the assailant or a motion of the deceit,
and I can't say which of those is the.

Speaker 4 (48:07):
Care Exhibit one eight four. We do have a lower
portion of his body, correct, the lower part of the abdomen,
and we have this injury here, right, and then we
have these right. Yes, if we go to exhibit one
eight eight, is that a close up of them? Yes?

(48:29):
What are these down here? To the as we look
at it, to the lower part of his belly button.

Speaker 7 (48:34):
There's another photograph which may not be entered into evidence,
but there's a wound track that extends across the front
of the belly from where this stab enters. So some
of that what you're seeing is blood actually appearing on
the surface of the skin because of this this track
where the stab wound went, its very close to the
surface of the skin.

Speaker 4 (48:54):
So what I think you're saying with regard to this
stab wound is that it went something like that. Yes,
So if we do that from the opening to the
longest one, how how far is that?

Speaker 7 (49:07):
I gave a maximum woundtrack depth of about five and
three quarter inches?

Speaker 6 (49:13):
After one is referring to his report, Can we have
that marked?

Speaker 4 (49:15):
Please? You want?

Speaker 7 (49:18):
It's the same report.

Speaker 6 (49:20):
So I think we have.

Speaker 11 (49:21):
One mark, and I guess from now on if you
want one of your mind seven years of apologies, we.

Speaker 4 (49:35):
Were talking about the length of this one and this
one is I think he said five and three quarters. Yes,
what is the angle of that.

Speaker 7 (49:46):
It's across the body from left to right and slightly downwards, so.

Speaker 4 (49:50):
It's sort of, uh, came sort from the side right here.
And was he alive at the time that this happened
or was he deceased at that time?

Speaker 7 (50:03):
More likely than not alive, since there is bleeding associated
with the.

Speaker 4 (50:06):
Wound, and you're talking about this down here, the bruising
that's down here correct.

Speaker 7 (50:09):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (50:10):
Is this area in the belly button is that also
associated with a stab? One?

Speaker 7 (50:14):
Yes, it's going across the nable.

Speaker 4 (50:19):
Exhibit one nine. We're now looking at the lower portion
of his body right, yes, And not to be in delicate,
was there any decomposition in the testicular area that sort
of part of his body.

Speaker 7 (50:34):
It's usual to see some drying there in some early mummification,
and that is present.

Speaker 4 (50:39):
And let's start with the right leg. What are we
looking at there?

Speaker 7 (50:45):
Apart from some decomposition changes, he also has some some
contusions or bruises on the shin.

Speaker 4 (50:52):
Area right right here? Is that correct?

Speaker 7 (50:56):
On the right shin?

Speaker 4 (50:56):
Yes, Let's take a look at ones that show it better. Yes,
And the question is the same, were these injuries here?
Were these inflicted at the time of death, before death?
After death?

Speaker 7 (51:14):
Can you tell I believe they're inflicted before death?

Speaker 4 (51:18):
Would these be consistent with this individual being dragged somewhere
while he was alive sustaining you're familiar you've done how
many autopsies, sir? About six thousand and during that time,
have you seen and studied the situation where someone is

(51:40):
dragged before death? Have you seen that situation before?

Speaker 8 (51:43):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (51:43):
How many times?

Speaker 4 (51:44):
Would you say?

Speaker 7 (51:45):
At least three or four times?

Speaker 4 (51:47):
And looking at that along with your and have you
read up on this area? Is there anything No, given
what you know and what you've seen in your work,
and you said that these injuries are before depth? Would
could that be consistent with someone being dragged?

Speaker 2 (52:07):
A prayer continue?

Speaker 4 (52:11):
Could those be consistent with somebody being dragging him along
or him being dragged?

Speaker 7 (52:16):
Usually what you see in it dragging is you'll see
more drawn out abrasions. These look more like impacts to
me against something. Bruising is usually from stumbling against something
or being forced against some So, in.

Speaker 4 (52:26):
Other words, this are consistent more consistent in your view
with him hitting something before.

Speaker 7 (52:31):
Debt, yes, or something hitting him.

Speaker 4 (52:34):
How about if we then go to exhibit one ninety
and which this is the right heel or left.

Speaker 7 (52:41):
Heel, that is the left heel, And what do we.

Speaker 4 (52:45):
Have here in the back of the left heil?

Speaker 7 (52:47):
I call them a braided lacerations. So a laceration as
opposed to an insized one, is actually a tearing of
the skin rather than cutting. And it's upbraided. So there's
an abrasion or a scrape leading into the to the
last ration. And that is also from a contact with
an object of some kind.

Speaker 4 (53:05):
And again, were these made before or after his death?

Speaker 7 (53:09):
I believe before because they are hemorrhagic.

Speaker 4 (53:13):
And you said hemorrhagic, that means they were bleeding bleeding
into them as but these do imply some sort of action, correct,
I mean there.

Speaker 7 (53:20):
Was movement, a force, yes, a blunt force.

Speaker 4 (53:23):
To go back to this exhibit, which is one ninety
one and looking at the left foot, do you see
this right here, that area there by the heel.

Speaker 5 (53:33):
Yes, what is the hat?

Speaker 7 (53:35):
That is a contusion or a bruise.

Speaker 4 (53:38):
So that's also how is that different than the abrasion
that we've talked about.

Speaker 7 (53:42):
Contusion or a bruise is just bleeding under the skin,
the skin is intact, whereas an abrasion or a laceration
the skin has scraped, they're torn.

Speaker 4 (53:51):
And if we looked at the heat at the knee here,
is that a contusion or an abrasion?

Speaker 7 (53:57):
I would characterize that as an abrasion. And in contrast
the other things we've been talking about, I'd say that
that looks more like a post mortem change. It's it's
got some drying and it's kind of a yellowish in color,
so it really doesn't look like a like an anti
mortember an injury before death.

Speaker 4 (54:12):
So this could be something after death. Yes, and it's
an individual.

Speaker 5 (54:18):
I know it begs the question, but if an individual
is dead, they're not.

Speaker 4 (54:21):
Going to be moving around to cause this, right. No,
are you then telling me that actually a force was
applied to this area as opposed to mister Alexander either
moving or striking himself.

Speaker 7 (54:33):
That's more left, So you're going to look at it.

Speaker 4 (54:39):
Exhibits numbers through one ninety nine. Are those photographs of
the victims injuries in the back area of his boy
when you conducted the examination in June of two thousand
and eight, Yes.

Speaker 7 (54:59):
And some images of the head as well.

Speaker 4 (55:02):
In the back part of the head. Yes, over the
admission of exhibits one two.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
Actually exhibits one admitted.

Speaker 4 (55:21):
Let's take a look at Exhibit one ninety two and
the injuries that jump out it as these right here.
Are you familiar with the term grouping?

Speaker 7 (55:35):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (55:36):
Is this a grouping of injuries?

Speaker 7 (55:38):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (55:38):
And what does that mean to you?

Speaker 7 (55:41):
Well, more likely than not, they occurred close in time,
and they a lot of them. Most of them have
the same orientation.

Speaker 4 (55:49):
When you say that they have the same orientation, what
does that mean? And I'll show you exhibit number one
ninety three.

Speaker 7 (55:56):
What do we mean about the same orientation in general?
Except for one exception that I can see at the
lower edge, they're all oriented exactly the same direction.

Speaker 4 (56:05):
And what direction is that?

Speaker 7 (56:07):
They're in a diagonal extending from the right shoulder towards
the lower left side of the back.

Speaker 4 (56:12):
So if these were inflicted like this, yes, and with
one exception, which exception is that.

Speaker 7 (56:20):
Are the lower there's a pair of wounds. It appears
that there's one that's sort of going the other direction,
the other diagonal.

Speaker 4 (56:27):
And these injuries that we're talking about that are I
mean this way like that? Would they could they be
consistent with the individual having his back as I have
a to you turn to his attacker and the attacker
just stabbing.

Speaker 5 (56:41):
Him like that.

Speaker 4 (56:42):
Yes, how many are there here? Starting with this one here,
cutting across to the other shoulder sort of in a
triangular fashion, if you will, How many stab How many
injuries do we have there?

Speaker 7 (56:59):
We have nine injuries and they're all clustered together there
in the center. What you're seeing on the upper left
side is actually post war artifact. There's some skin slippage
there and some.

Speaker 4 (57:09):
Direct is that what we're talking about there in this.

Speaker 7 (57:11):
Area here where your pen.

Speaker 4 (57:13):
Is and also right here? I guess correct? And you
said that there were how many ninth?

Speaker 7 (57:19):
Nine?

Speaker 4 (57:20):
Are these stab wounds? Are they in sized wounds?

Speaker 7 (57:23):
Which is they're stab wounds.

Speaker 4 (57:24):
So which means that they're deeper than they are longer?

Speaker 7 (57:26):
Correct?

Speaker 4 (57:27):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (57:29):
How deep is the deepest one there?

Speaker 7 (57:31):
They're all about the same depth. They're about an inch deep,
and they're going into the back parts of the ribs
and the spine, the spinal bone and stopping there. And
none of them, to my exam, none of them entered
the chest cavity. Although with decomposition you can't completely rule
that out.

Speaker 4 (57:48):
When you say that they went up.

Speaker 5 (57:49):
To the to the bones, does it mean.

Speaker 4 (57:52):
That they stopped there or did the knife blade continue
past the bone? Do we know that? Or does decomposition
affect that here?

Speaker 7 (58:00):
To all have been stopped by the bones.

Speaker 4 (58:03):
And that does speak a little bit to the pressure
that's been applied to them, right, that they didn't go
through the bone?

Speaker 6 (58:08):
Right?

Speaker 7 (58:08):
It depends on the force of the assailant and also
the type of weapon that's used.

Speaker 4 (58:13):
And if you know, maybe you do, maybe you don't.
Do you know proximately how much force there was that
was applied there or not.

Speaker 7 (58:24):
I couldn't say. It would depend on the thickness of
his bones as well, So there are a lot of variables.

Speaker 4 (58:30):
But needless, they didn't go through the bone, right.

Speaker 7 (58:32):
Correct?

Speaker 4 (58:35):
This area here, which is his buttock area? Correct? Yes,
what's going on there? It just looks like it's a
little bit red. Could you tell us what's.

Speaker 9 (58:48):
Going on there?

Speaker 7 (58:50):
That's libidity? So this person was found in a semi
seated position and the blood had settled to that part.
So in the body, when the heart stops beating, the
blood will settle to wherever gravity will guide it, and
so in this case, since he's in a semi seated position,
most of blood is going to go to the buttock area,
and that's why it's kind of got this reddish color.

Speaker 4 (59:10):
Is part of the decomposition process? Does that include gases
being inside the body being formed and expelled? Is that
part of the decomposition process.

Speaker 7 (59:20):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (59:20):
So, for example, if in this case, if we had,
which we do, a wound here to the net, would
it be consistent with the decomposition process to have the
gases sort of be expelled through that area such that
liquid or fluid maybe come out with the gases. Is
that something that could happen.

Speaker 7 (59:39):
Yes, that's usual.

Speaker 4 (59:44):
It's take a look at one four and I want
to look at the right foot. Do you see that
right there that area there and perhaps this area here
for those bruises or is that just maybe a lot
or discoloration.

Speaker 7 (01:00:01):
It's discoloration and also mummification of the soul of the
foot extending up on the side of the foot.

Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
And the left foot, do you see that right there
on I'm going to move it up the knee area.
You see that? And is that the one that we
talked about that was probably close mortem?

Speaker 7 (01:00:22):
That was on the other side, but again that has
the same sort of appearance. It's not the best view,
but it looks like a dried almost like a parchment
like appearance, and that's something that we see with after death.

Speaker 4 (01:00:32):
And the left foot has the abrasion I think you
called it.

Speaker 7 (01:00:38):
Is there's a contusion on the ankle area and then
also that abraided area of laceration on the achilles tendon.

Speaker 4 (01:00:49):
Let's look at Exhibit one ninety three again, and we've
talked about this grouping and we see the head in
the neck. Let's take a closer look at that and
Exhibit one ninety five. What are we looking at that?

Speaker 7 (01:01:06):
This is after I've inspected the back of the head.
I've shaved some of the hair away to better show
the injuries. And what you have here are a deep
in sized wound. So they are longer than they are deep,
but they are very deep. They're going all the way
to the skull. And there's two of them on the
back of the scalp.

Speaker 4 (01:01:24):
Given the way you describe it, and it may have
been something that I was reading into it, but it
appears that you the way you describe it, there was
some force that was applied to these particular rules to
get to where they got.

Speaker 7 (01:01:36):
Well, if you have a very sharp blade, it actually
wouldn't take very much force at all to cut the
tissue very deeply. All it is is just a connective
tissue that forms the scalp. Now to go through the bone,
that would consider that would be a lot more force
that would be needed.

Speaker 4 (01:01:51):
And this one right here, how long is that one?

Speaker 7 (01:01:56):
I have it as two inches on the on top
shairport and what.

Speaker 4 (01:02:00):
Above it two inches as well. The fact that the
hair is there, does that affect the strength needed to
get into or get this sort of injury? Or is
that just something that the hair really is not something
that you deal with or think about.

Speaker 7 (01:02:19):
His hair is very short. I mean, if he had
longer push your hair, it might cush in the head
somewhat or protect the head. But in this case, he's
got short hair, so I don't think it played a role.

Speaker 4 (01:02:29):
Taking a look at Exhibit one, what are we looking
at there?

Speaker 7 (01:02:33):
What you actually see here are the edges and it's
only in one portion of those inside ones we saw
there was some force applied that was sufficient to cause
a divot in the skull bone. So this is actually
after the skull. The scalp has been reflected away from
the skull, and what you're seeing here is actually a
divot in the center of the skull, and then over

(01:02:54):
on the left side you see another one, and there's
hemorrhage around though, so the bone was actually sort of
chipped the way by the end of the implement.

Speaker 4 (01:03:01):
There. If we take a look at Exhibit one ninety nine,
what are we looking at there?

Speaker 7 (01:03:06):
This to me is the tip of an implement, probably
the tip of a knife or something similar, because it
has this very triangular profile. This is the bone, and
the piece of bone has actually been chipped away by
the end of the of the object.

Speaker 4 (01:03:19):
If we go back to exhibit number one ninety five,
what this dimot in Exhibit one ninety nine, where was it?
As it so as it applies to these.

Speaker 7 (01:03:31):
Things, there's one at the extreme left end of the
longer wound at the bottom, and then one towards the
middle of the top one right here.

Speaker 4 (01:03:39):
Yes, so we're looking at there, and we're looking at there.
When we look at exhibit number one ninety eight, you're
looking at here and here Exhibit one ninety six, a
focus on the area that's down here to the bottom

(01:04:01):
and also to the front, if you will have the head.
Take a look at Exhibit one ninety seven in terms
of these two injuries that we saw back there, where
is this one? Though?

Speaker 7 (01:04:14):
This one's actually towards the front of the head, so
you're looking at the top of the head near the hairline.
On the forehead and the very bottom you'll see mister
Alexander's eyebrow has left eyebrow, so this is a small
insized wound at the forehead near the hairline.

Speaker 4 (01:04:31):
Any of these wounds that we've been talking about, the
ones with a sharp instrument, are they any of those
after death or are they all pre death?

Speaker 7 (01:04:39):
I think they're all pre death. They all have bleeding.

Speaker 4 (01:04:46):
Let's take a look.

Speaker 5 (01:04:46):
At Exhibits two hundred and two.

Speaker 7 (01:04:49):
Where are we looking at that the right side of
mister Alexander's neck behind the ear and.

Speaker 4 (01:04:56):
These are also taken at the time of your examination.

Speaker 7 (01:04:59):
Yes, who for the.

Speaker 8 (01:05:03):
Two hundred one are admitted.

Speaker 4 (01:05:17):
All these injuries that we've taken a look at so far,
how many of those have been the type that would
have been fatal?

Speaker 5 (01:05:26):
Of all the ones that we've looked at so far.

Speaker 4 (01:05:28):
At the back and then the longer the front.

Speaker 7 (01:05:30):
Taken together, all the wounds at the back and the
head could have been fatal from bleeding over time. The
most significant wounds are going to be the neck wound,
which we haven't talked about yet, the stab wound that
penetrates the heart and the vein leading into the heart,
and then also the gunshot wound, which we also haven't discussed.

Speaker 4 (01:05:48):
Let's take a look at the exhibit two hundred and
what are we looking at here?

Speaker 7 (01:05:56):
This is another stab wound of the back part of
the skull behind the ear, so there's bone underneath there.
It goes down into that bony area and also goes
into the muscle, the strap muscle that is on the
side of the head below the ear.

Speaker 4 (01:06:10):
And we're looking at two o one. How big is that?

Speaker 5 (01:06:12):
One?

Speaker 7 (01:06:15):
One in one quarter inch.

Speaker 4 (01:06:21):
Exhibit number two oh two. What are we looking at there?

Speaker 7 (01:06:26):
That is the back opposite side of the neck, on
the left side of the neck, and that's another step
the vision of the No.

Speaker 8 (01:06:36):
Two is admitted.

Speaker 7 (01:06:39):
What do we see here, Let's say another stab wing
to the back left side of the neck, and that
also penetrates into a muscle on the back of the
neck and how long is that one one inch?

Speaker 4 (01:06:56):
Take a look at exhibits two O three through.

Speaker 7 (01:07:01):
Two O six.

Speaker 4 (01:07:03):
And what do they portray?

Speaker 7 (01:07:05):
Uh, the largest wound of the neck across the throat the.

Speaker 4 (01:07:13):
Two O three through two O six.

Speaker 6 (01:07:18):
Ye nobjec. Exhibits two O three through two six are admitted.

Speaker 4 (01:07:23):
We're looking at these kinds of moses of the neck.
Are you able to tell, for example, Uh, if it's
started on the left side or the right side. Do
you know by looking at these where the wound may
have started or not?

Speaker 7 (01:07:39):
I'm not able to say, take a look at the.

Speaker 4 (01:07:44):
Two O three and what are we looking at? I
guess we'll do this. So what are we looking at here?

Speaker 5 (01:07:51):
Uh?

Speaker 7 (01:07:51):
There's a side view of the neck wound and it's
probably one of the better views to show how deep
it goes.

Speaker 5 (01:07:57):
And how deep is the wound? What is it that
was cut?

Speaker 4 (01:08:02):
As this knife came through the give.

Speaker 7 (01:08:05):
A fern to my ontopsy report, it passes through the airway,
so the wind pipe is cut through.

Speaker 4 (01:08:12):
Let me stop you there when it passes through the airway,
because this individual as it's going through therese lose the
ability to scream at that point.

Speaker 7 (01:08:21):
Or not it's below the larynx, below the voice box.
So yes, and.

Speaker 4 (01:08:28):
If this person, well, this person's alive at this point
according to you, right, he was still alive at the
time this was inflicted. Would the where would the blood
start coming out as as a result of this wound?

Speaker 7 (01:08:41):
Here, well, right next to the windpipe are the major
vessels of the knack. So you've got the carotid artery,
you've got the juggler vein. And on the right side,
not the left, but on the right.

Speaker 4 (01:08:52):
Let us take a look at Exhibit number two or four.
That's the right side. Correct.

Speaker 7 (01:08:56):
Yes, you're not gonna be able to see it in
this picture any great advantage, but my examination did show
that the juggler vein and the carotid artery on the
right side were both cut.

Speaker 4 (01:09:08):
And looking at this, how deep is this wound we
have here?

Speaker 7 (01:09:14):
It goes all the way back to the spine, so
it's three inches four inches.

Speaker 4 (01:09:20):
And if a person were to have the spine cut off,
is that where the feeling stops and they don't feel anything, or.

Speaker 7 (01:09:28):
It doesn't go through the spinal cord so it doesn't
penetrate that bone. So it's actually the soft tissue and
structures of the front of the neck and then stops
at the bone.

Speaker 4 (01:09:39):
Exhibit two or five. What are we looking at here?

Speaker 7 (01:09:43):
And this is a frontal view of the same wound.

Speaker 4 (01:09:47):
In looking at this, do you see how it's my
term scalloped.

Speaker 7 (01:09:52):
Yes, there's some irregularity, and a lot of that is
due to the drying of the wound that's happened after death.
If you inspere the edges of the wound, it is
actually a cleanly insized wound and its retracted a bit
and gotten a bit larger after death because the tissue
has dried and retracted away.

Speaker 4 (01:10:09):
Are you familiar with the term hesitation marks? Yes? Are there?
And what are hesitation marks?

Speaker 7 (01:10:16):
Very occasionally we'll get suicides like this. We'll get people
that cut their own throat, and it's very unusual for
them to just cut their throat. They will do shallow cuts,
and they'll sort of do test cuts, and then they'll
do a deep cut. So we call those little smaller
cuts hesitation marks. And we don't see anything like that here.

Speaker 4 (01:10:35):
Exhibit two oh six. What are you doing here?

Speaker 7 (01:10:40):
I'm trying to show the profile of the wound a
bit better put the wound together, so we have sort
of an idea of what the wound looked like before
it's separated.

Speaker 4 (01:10:47):
And see this right here, is that an indication of
where it started or you can't tell where it started.

Speaker 7 (01:10:54):
I can't say whether it started on the right or
the left, but it's across the neck.

Speaker 4 (01:10:59):
Once this was a inflicted what kind of wound is this?
We've talked about the one that's in the chest and
you said, well, that's not immediately fatal and the person
would be conscious once this was inflicted on mister Alexander,
Is this something that's number one rapidly fatal and number
two what about lapsing into unconsciousness? If you could have

(01:11:22):
talked to us about those two aspects.

Speaker 7 (01:11:25):
Well, he has two major vessels in his throat that
have been cut. He's going to lose a great deal
of blood very quickly. He's going to lose consciousness within
seconds likely, and then die a few minutes later.

Speaker 4 (01:11:36):
So if an individual receives this wound, would it be
would he be able to get up and walk let's
say twelve feet six inches somewhere?

Speaker 7 (01:11:47):
Yes, he could get up and walk a couple of feet,
that's possible.

Speaker 4 (01:11:51):
He could move and then he would collapse. And in
terms of unconsciousness, how much time are we talking about?

Speaker 7 (01:12:02):
A few seconds probably and death?

Speaker 4 (01:12:05):
How long would it take for this person to die
if this was the only injury, If.

Speaker 7 (01:12:09):
This was the only injury, again, uh, probably a few.

Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
Minutes in this case, though you've you've seen that there
were other injuries. And uh you also alluded to the
fact that there was a gunshot wound.

Speaker 7 (01:12:20):
Right, Yes, take a look.

Speaker 4 (01:12:22):
At uh, exhibit two.

Speaker 9 (01:12:25):
Ten and what did those they.

Speaker 7 (01:12:36):
Show the uh, the gunshot wound of mister Alexander's right forehead.

Speaker 4 (01:12:41):
And we also have the uh the bullet did you recover? Yes?
Moved for the admission of exhibits. Numbers to.

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
Shoot that's two of seven through two ten are.

Speaker 5 (01:12:57):
Admitted, sibit two oh seven.

Speaker 4 (01:13:06):
What is this right here?

Speaker 7 (01:13:07):
That's a gunshot entrance one?

Speaker 4 (01:13:09):
And what's the trajectory of this gunshot wound? It?

Speaker 7 (01:13:14):
Uh passes down through the skull, passes through the face
and downward and to the left and terminates in the
left cheek.

Speaker 4 (01:13:27):
In looking at this, are you able to tell or
give us a determination as to the distance between a
muzzle and his temple?

Speaker 7 (01:13:39):
I'm not uh, I I called it an indeterminate range.
I don't have a footing, I don't have stippling any
of the indicators of a range of fire.

Speaker 4 (01:13:47):
Here, so we really can't tell how far away. One
that's right and to a weight just shows us that
same injury with the ruler next to it right. Yes,
Exhibit two or nine. What do we see there?

Speaker 7 (01:14:04):
That is the left cheek and I've made an incision
and remove the bullet here.

Speaker 4 (01:14:10):
This bullet and the trajectory that you've described, did it
affect the brain at all? In other words, did it
strike the brain or not?

Speaker 7 (01:14:19):
It must have It passed through the front right portion
of the skull. The problem in this case is that
the brain was decomposed, and the brain is a very
soft structure to begin with, so it falls apart very
rapidly after death. So I was not able to see
a track through the brain. But just because the bullet
passes through the front part of the skull where the

(01:14:40):
brain normally would be, I have to conclude that the
brain was perforated.

Speaker 4 (01:14:44):
And if the brain is perforated, what would happen to
this individual once he was shot? He'd be incapacitated, went down, Yes,
immediately rapidly. Yes, Exhibit two ten is what thatt's the
bullet after recovery. Let me show you Exhibit two forty four.

Speaker 5 (01:15:06):
You want to go ahead and open.

Speaker 3 (01:15:10):
You need that, you know, want to get your figure
glow to go.

Speaker 6 (01:15:12):
On your sub sister?

Speaker 7 (01:15:14):
Do I need to view it or you prefer that
I did?

Speaker 4 (01:15:18):
Yeah, let me go ahead.

Speaker 7 (01:15:19):
A DPC scisors evidence canster uh which would be containing
that projectile that was recovered. And those are my initials.

Speaker 4 (01:15:36):
Alright if you don't like being inspect the mission of
exit two forty four.

Speaker 1 (01:15:44):
Two forty four is a minute?

Speaker 4 (01:15:46):
Oh, how did mess mister Alexander die? What was the
mechanism of death? In other words, how did he die?

Speaker 7 (01:15:55):
Primarily blood loss?

Speaker 4 (01:15:57):
And tell me how that works on the body in
terms of the blood loss and what that does to
the individual as he dies.

Speaker 7 (01:16:06):
Well, after you lose blood, you lose the ability to
provide oxygen to your major organs, including your brain and
your heart. In this case, the first thing that would
happen would be dizziness, followed by a loss of consciousness
and then death.

Speaker 4 (01:16:20):
In this particular case, you've indicated that there are three
specific injuries that could have led to deathy. We talked
about the stab wound in the chest, We've talked about
the splinting of the throat, and then we've talked about
the shot to the head. With regard to the shot

(01:16:43):
to the head, would that have been rapidly fatal?

Speaker 7 (01:16:47):
Likely would have been? Yes?

Speaker 4 (01:16:49):
And by rapidly fatal, what are we.

Speaker 7 (01:16:50):
Talking about, Well, if you have a projectile going through
the front part of the brain, the person may not
die immediately, but they'll probably lose the ability to function normally,
they'll lose consciousness and they'll be playing on.

Speaker 4 (01:17:02):
The floor and short, very short order, yes, shot they
go down.

Speaker 8 (01:17:06):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (01:17:06):
How about the slashing to the throat In terms of
whether or not it's rapidly fatal.

Speaker 7 (01:17:11):
Or not, I think by far it's the most significant injury,
and well it's just the most hemorrhagic injury. It's the
one that I can demonstrate, the most significant injury to
the structures that are going to cause death, like the
carotid argy, the windpipe and the.

Speaker 4 (01:17:25):
Juggler vein, and then the one to the heart is
that I think we've talked about it. But in terms
of rapidly fatal, less fatal, which of these. If we're
going to apply that standard as to which.

Speaker 5 (01:17:40):
Are the most fatal, how about the one to the chest,
Is that the most fatal or the least fatal, which
may not.

Speaker 7 (01:17:45):
Be probably the middle. It's it's a significant injury. It
would it would definitely cause death without medical attention.

Speaker 4 (01:17:52):
And would that cause unconsciousness immediately? Yes?

Speaker 7 (01:17:56):
Not immediately? Not the chest one. No.

Speaker 4 (01:17:59):
From what I hearing you say. Of the three that
we've talked about, two of them, the one to the
neck and the one to the gunshot to the head,
those appear from what I hear you saying, that those
would cause unconsciousness quickly, immediate, immediately, yes, and the one
to the chest would not.

Speaker 7 (01:18:19):
Less likely.

Speaker 4 (01:18:20):
So, if that's the scenario, and in this case we
have the defensive wounds to the hands, what does that
tell you about the sequencing of these three injuries.

Speaker 7 (01:18:33):
I believe the wounds the hands must have occurred before
the fatal injuries either of the head or of the throat.

Speaker 4 (01:18:39):
And so what you're saying is that at some point
during the stabbing, but before the slashing of the throat
and before the gunshot to the head, this individual grabbed
the knife or the knife was applied leading rephrase, tell
me about the sequencing of events as it applies to

(01:19:02):
the two injuries and one to the head and the
slitting of the throat, and when this individual may have
grabbed the knife or the knife was applied to his hands.

Speaker 7 (01:19:12):
With the throat wound and the head wound, I don't
think this person could have had a purposeful activity, meaning
I don't think they could have raised their arms and
attempted to defend themselves with the chest wound. That's possible
because he would not have been immediately unconscious.

Speaker 4 (01:19:28):
In terms then between the other two, So that would
mean then that it appears that in your opinion, the
first wound would have been the one.

Speaker 5 (01:19:38):
To the chest.

Speaker 4 (01:19:39):
Chest to me, three phrased, which one? Which one would
have been first? In your opinion?

Speaker 7 (01:19:46):
Well, the stab wound could have occurred, and then the
defensive injuries could have happened after the wound of the
chest occurred, right, okay.

Speaker 4 (01:19:54):
And then in terms of the sequence of the injuries
involving the three major ones that we talked.

Speaker 7 (01:19:58):
About, what is your opinion, Well, the throat injuries and
or the head wound are going to be immediately incapacitating
and he's not going to attempt to defend himself after that.

Speaker 4 (01:20:09):
In terms of the shot to the head, do you
have any opinion as to whether or not he was
alive at the time that that.

Speaker 5 (01:20:16):
Shot was struck?

Speaker 4 (01:20:19):
I can't say. Do you have an opinion as to
the wound to the neck whether or not he was
alive at the time that that was rendered?

Speaker 7 (01:20:30):
If you will, I believe he was. There's a great
deal of hemorrhage associated with that.

Speaker 4 (01:20:34):
And was he alive With regard to the one to
the chest that we've been talking about, yes, I believe
he was. Can you tell with regard to the gunshot
wound to the right temple whether or not he was
alive or not at that port.

Speaker 7 (01:20:46):
Again, there's a wound going through the head, and I
don't see hemorrhage in the brain. I can't see a
wound track through the brain, So all I know is
that there's a bullet going through the brain. So I
can't say with certainty.

Speaker 4 (01:20:57):
And if we don't see hemorrhaging or bleeding as you
talk talked about, is that an indication that the person
was already dead There may have been.

Speaker 7 (01:21:06):
Yes, I don't have.

Speaker 5 (01:21:07):
Any other questions.

Speaker 4 (01:21:08):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:21:09):
All right, ladies and gentlemen, we were going to take
the afternoon recess. Please be back in the designated area
at ten minutes after three and we will start promptly
at that time. Please remember the admonition you are excused,
please be seated. The record will show the presence of
the jury, the dependent in all council. This will want

(01:21:30):
you may cross examine, get.

Speaker 3 (01:21:33):
Out anue, doctor Harne. I. Okay, so you're obviously the
doctor that performed the autopsy on mister Alexander, right, yes.

Speaker 6 (01:21:46):
And were you the only doctor that did that?

Speaker 7 (01:21:49):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:21:49):
And present during the autopsy was Detective Flores.

Speaker 7 (01:21:53):
Right, I have a good refering to my autopsy report.
Detective Barriantos and Detective Flores for present.

Speaker 6 (01:21:59):
And that's Detective Floor here sitting at the prosecution stable.

Speaker 3 (01:22:01):
Yes, okay, and so and when they're present, that means
they are able to watch what you're doing. Yes, And
if they had a question, they can always ask you.

Speaker 7 (01:22:11):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (01:22:12):
And if you had they're there to collect evidence too, right, Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:22:17):
And if you had something or you noted something, you
can certainly tell the detectives right yes.

Speaker 6 (01:22:26):
And there was no issues, I mean he was free
to ask you questions if he had any.

Speaker 5 (01:22:29):
Yes, after the.

Speaker 3 (01:22:33):
Autopsy, he would have been free. The detective Aryantis or
Detective Floras would have been free to call you if
they had follow up questions, right, Yes, I mean, in
other words, you don't just do this autopsy and then
forget about it.

Speaker 4 (01:22:45):
That's right, okay?

Speaker 6 (01:22:47):
And so and you certainly would pick Detectives Flora's calls
if he called you, Yes, I would.

Speaker 3 (01:22:52):
And in fact, at some point you did speak to
Detective Floras later, didn't you?

Speaker 7 (01:22:58):
I may have. I don't recall.

Speaker 3 (01:23:00):
Okay, Well, he's considered what we call a case agent.

Speaker 6 (01:23:03):
Are you familiar with that term? Yes? And that means.

Speaker 3 (01:23:07):
That he is like the point person for the investigation, right,
I believe so as far as the police agency. If
you had needed to say anything, it would be Detective
Floors or the case agent that you would say it too, right.

Speaker 7 (01:23:19):
Or if I needed further information, I would contact that
detective yes.

Speaker 3 (01:23:22):
Okay, And he was always open to you as far
as you know, right, as far as I know.

Speaker 6 (01:23:26):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:23:27):
Now, during this autopsy, you learned that I think you
said that mister Alexander was five foot nine inches, yes,
and at the time of the autopsy, the weight was
one hundred and eighty nine. Yes, and if you need
to refer to your part.

Speaker 6 (01:23:41):
Just let me know.

Speaker 7 (01:23:41):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:23:43):
The one hundred and eighty nine pounds, I believe that
would be during the autopsy, so more likely in life
he weighed more than that.

Speaker 6 (01:23:50):
Is that right?

Speaker 4 (01:23:51):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:23:52):
Do you do you have any type of an opinion
about how.

Speaker 6 (01:23:54):
Much more he would typically weigh?

Speaker 7 (01:23:56):
I would go viers driver's license or recollections of family.
Don't have that information there.

Speaker 3 (01:24:01):
Okay, but we do know that at at the point
of an autopsy, especially when somebody has lost blood, they're
going to weigh less than what they did in life. Yes,
I want to talk to you a little bit about
the gunshot wound.

Speaker 7 (01:24:14):
Okay, yes, all right.

Speaker 3 (01:24:16):
Now, we looked at the pictures, and from the pictures,
that looks as though the gunshot wound the gunshot goes in.

Speaker 6 (01:24:22):
There's an entry.

Speaker 3 (01:24:23):
Well, you're familiar with an entry wound what that means, right, yes?

Speaker 6 (01:24:27):
And an exit wound.

Speaker 7 (01:24:28):
Yes, there is no exit wound in.

Speaker 6 (01:24:30):
This case, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:24:31):
And an exit wound is when a projectile is leaving
the body. Yes, okay, So there's an entry wound right
above his right brow, is that right, yes, and just
in the middle of his brow, just above it.

Speaker 6 (01:24:44):
It, yes, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:24:47):
And you said there's no exit wound, no exit wound,
So that means that during the autopsy you recovered the
projectile in his left cheek right, yes, or correct, it
should say, And it was in We know that the trajectory,
which is the pathway of the bullet, right, that's just

(01:25:08):
the direction the director. So we know that the direction
of the bullet based on the where it went in
and where it lodged. We know that it was coming
in from the left and going down, coming.

Speaker 7 (01:25:20):
In from the right and going down and ending up
on the left side.

Speaker 3 (01:25:24):
I'm sorry, heading left, heading left, yes, coming in from
the right hand side, heading in the direction of left,
and then lodging in the.

Speaker 6 (01:25:31):
Left cheek, yes, okay. And it was coming in a
downward position.

Speaker 4 (01:25:35):
Right.

Speaker 7 (01:25:36):
It may have been inflected by the bone since it's
passing through the skull, so its position in the cheek
may not be the actual trajectory at the beginning of
its path.

Speaker 6 (01:25:45):
Okay. So, and do you know.

Speaker 3 (01:25:52):
I would assume from being a doctor, I've always heard
that head wounds bleed the scalp is something that bleeds
a lot.

Speaker 6 (01:25:58):
Is that true?

Speaker 7 (01:26:00):
Scalp wounds do bleed, Okay?

Speaker 3 (01:26:01):
So I head wound, a bullet entry wound on above
and the scalp just above or not the scalp, but
just above in the forehead.

Speaker 6 (01:26:09):
Is that something that's going to have a lot of
blood associated.

Speaker 7 (01:26:12):
With it, typically in a living person. Yes, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:26:15):
And so if this bullet wound is made in while
mister Alexander's living, there's going to be blood coming out
of it, right, yeah, And it would be of course
in the pictures we just see a small little hole,
but when it actually happened, if mister Alexander was living,
there would have been quite a bit of blood coming
from there.

Speaker 7 (01:26:33):
Generally, yes, depends on where other wounds have happened. So
if the throat's already been cut and he's already been
bleeding from that wound, there might be considerably less blood
from that.

Speaker 3 (01:26:41):
Wound, Okay, Assuming though, that mister Alexander was alive at
the time that the gunshot wound is done, so that
the heart is still pumping that in that situation, you'd
agree right that there would be lots of blood coming
from the gunshot.

Speaker 7 (01:26:53):
Wound in that abstract sense, yes, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:26:58):
And then the left the projectile lodging in the left cheek,
that's something that would typically cause bleeding with.

Speaker 7 (01:27:06):
It wherever it is along its path, it's going to
cause bleeding along a path. So yes, they'd be bleeding
into the cheek, there'd be bleeding into the forehead and
into the.

Speaker 3 (01:27:15):
Skull intervening, okay, and then the cheek where you were
able to recover the projectile. That would be something that
had mister Alexander been alive, the blood would be going
from his cheek and probably into his mouth, wouldn't it.

Speaker 7 (01:27:28):
I don't have any evidence that it passed through his mouth,
So if it's actually going through and when I say cheek,
I mean I do mean this bone up here, the maxilla,
which is really not connected to the oral cavity except
by the sinus, So I'm not saying that it went
through his oral cavity.

Speaker 6 (01:27:42):
Okay. So you're talking about it being lodged.

Speaker 7 (01:27:44):
In the cheek bone, cheap bone, or beyond the cheek
bone up here in the soft tissue above where the.

Speaker 6 (01:27:49):
Mouth is, Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:27:50):
And you said that's connected to the mouth through the sinus, right,
there's a mactullary sinus, right, all right, So if there
was bleeding associated with that, then would we expect to
see blood into the sign or through the nose and
then eventually into the mouth.

Speaker 7 (01:28:02):
It's likely yes, all right, And.

Speaker 6 (01:28:07):
You talked about the pathway. Well, let me ask you this.
You talk a little bit on direct about.

Speaker 3 (01:28:15):
Not knowing the distance from the muzzle of the gun
to mister Alexander.

Speaker 6 (01:28:20):
Yes, so when.

Speaker 3 (01:28:22):
You're talking about that, you're really talking about things like stippling, right,
stipling or soot that.

Speaker 7 (01:28:27):
Deposits on the skin.

Speaker 6 (01:28:28):
Right, Okay, can you tell us what stippling is.

Speaker 7 (01:28:31):
Stippling is sometimes out of the end of a firearm.
If the person's close enough when they're being shot, you'll
have little pieces of burning gunpowder that will come out
of the end of the gun and will embed themselves
in the skin, and so you'll get these little tiny dots,
little stipple marks around the wound. And when we see that,
we usually say that's an intermediate range of fire. And
it depends on the type of firearm you're using, but

(01:28:53):
it may be a couple of feet away or maybe
up to a yard away, depending on what gun is used.

Speaker 3 (01:28:59):
Okay, So when we when you see stippling, you would
that tells you it's that the muzzle of the gun
was probably within two to three feet away from the person, depending.

Speaker 7 (01:29:08):
On the gun. So some can be considerably further away.
Some can be closer than that and leave stippling. So
what you'd have to do is actually get the gun
and test firing.

Speaker 6 (01:29:16):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:29:17):
Now, when you talk about stippling and leaving marks, those
are actual burn marks, aren't they.

Speaker 7 (01:29:23):
There are abrasions, and there may be some burn to that,
but most of the time it's just it's an abrasion
and it's a piece of gunpowder.

Speaker 3 (01:29:30):
It's embedding itself in the skin, Okay, And those abrasions
they're not just going to go away if somebody were
to pour water over them.

Speaker 7 (01:29:38):
Right, No, they're embedded in the skin.

Speaker 3 (01:29:41):
So we know that mister Alexander's body was found in
the shower and that it appeared that there was water
at some point put over his body.

Speaker 6 (01:29:48):
That's not going to get rid of any stippling, right.

Speaker 7 (01:29:50):
It may wash out some of the gunpowder fragments, but
the marks, the stipple marks, would.

Speaker 3 (01:29:55):
Still be there generally, all right, and you're confident that
you would be able to know that right.

Speaker 5 (01:29:59):
From you experience.

Speaker 7 (01:30:00):
Well, with decomposition, it may be less apparent. But in
looking at him and looking at his face, I didn't
see any stickle.

Speaker 3 (01:30:05):
Marks, all right, And so based on the fact that
there's no stipling marks, you can say, I know you
talk about an indeterminate range of fire, right, yes, and
that means what.

Speaker 6 (01:30:17):
Does that mean to you?

Speaker 7 (01:30:17):
That means I couldn't determine a range of fire, okay,
based on the autopsy alone.

Speaker 3 (01:30:22):
Okay, But because there's no stipling, doesn't it also mean
that we know that the gun certainly wasn't next to
his forehead.

Speaker 7 (01:30:30):
I don't think it's a contact wound. Contact wound will
usually leave like a star shaped tear, and I don't
see that here if it's not right up against the skin.
If it's but if it's very close, you usually see
soot and not stippling. I don't see soot. I don't
see a star shaped tear, and I don't see stippling.
So that for me takes it out beyond the range

(01:30:50):
of an intermediate So it's either a distant range or
indeterminate an indeterminate range of fire could be that there's
some object in between the face and the gun. So
if there's a garment, a towel, something like that, that
can also cause you to be unable to determine a
range of fire.

Speaker 3 (01:31:08):
All right, and so you know what, You know that
that we're talking at least two to three feet away,
if not more because of the nose stippling.

Speaker 7 (01:31:17):
That's likely.

Speaker 6 (01:31:19):
I want to talk to you a little bit about
the wounds on the back.

Speaker 3 (01:31:21):
Okay, all in all? On the back there was nine
wounds is that correct? I'm sorry, in the upper back.
Let me be more specific.

Speaker 7 (01:31:31):
Yes, a cluster of nine stab wounds on the upper back.

Speaker 3 (01:31:34):
And I think that's what you called a grouping. Yes,
And they're in between his shoulders, is that right?

Speaker 7 (01:31:40):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:31:42):
And these wounds you'd consider very shallow.

Speaker 7 (01:31:46):
Is that right? They are shallow?

Speaker 8 (01:31:47):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:31:51):
And I'm going to show you what's in evidence.

Speaker 3 (01:31:56):
Is one?

Speaker 5 (01:31:58):
All right?

Speaker 3 (01:31:59):
That's one and that's a picture of the wounds in.

Speaker 6 (01:32:02):
Between the shoulders, the grouping on the back.

Speaker 4 (01:32:04):
Right, Yes, all right?

Speaker 3 (01:32:06):
And you see that there's a center. There's these in
the center, right, yes, this group, and then there's three
here to his right.

Speaker 6 (01:32:20):
Shoulder more towards his right shoulder, I should say.

Speaker 4 (01:32:23):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:32:24):
Now the group in the center, those actually are more
of a straight on direction, aren't they.

Speaker 7 (01:32:30):
They appear to be straight Yes, there's about equal amount
of tissue on either side, all right.

Speaker 3 (01:32:36):
So in other words, those are not the ones that
are the grouping in the center. Those are not a
diagonal as far as you can take diagonal incoming.

Speaker 7 (01:32:45):
Well, I think we got off on a sidetrack on
direct that the directionality, like the way that they're oriented
is in a diagonal, but the track itself going into
the tissue is pretty much straight on.

Speaker 4 (01:32:57):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:32:58):
So when you talk about direction of you're talking about
that the wound.

Speaker 7 (01:33:01):
Is the wound itself is diagonal, vertical up.

Speaker 6 (01:33:04):
And down right, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:33:06):
And so directionality we're talking When we talk about directionality,
we're talking about where the instrument might have been coming from.

Speaker 7 (01:33:14):
Yes, in terms of a trajectory.

Speaker 6 (01:33:17):
Yes, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:33:18):
So in terms of the trajectory, we're looking at the
center in the back, and those look like the instrument
would have been coming more.

Speaker 7 (01:33:24):
Of a straight on or straight on from back to front, yes, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:33:29):
And the grouping on the right we can see those
look more like they are coming at a diagonal.

Speaker 6 (01:33:36):
The trajectory would be diagonal.

Speaker 4 (01:33:38):
Right.

Speaker 7 (01:33:38):
If you look at the tissue on the side, you
can see that whitish tissue in the margin, and you're
seeing fatty tissue that is being sort of shaved as
the knife is going in. So when I look at
these three wounds here, it looks like the knife is
actually going in from a little bit from right to
left and into the back.

Speaker 3 (01:33:57):
Okay, so from right to left, So so going in
from his right shoulder heading towards his middle, Is that correct?

Speaker 5 (01:34:07):
Yes? All right?

Speaker 3 (01:34:09):
And you already talked about these wounds being shallow. When
you see shallow wounds, that would typically mean that there's
less force.

Speaker 7 (01:34:18):
Applied, right, Well, it depends on what the object is
it's being penetrated. In this case, there's lots of bone
underneath these, so whatever force was applied was insufficient to
break through a rib or break through into the spine.

Speaker 3 (01:34:32):
Okay, Well, if you assume that the same instrument is
used for all these different wounds, we know that some
of these wounds are deeper than others, right, Yes, And
for example, the wound that penetrates into and perforates the

(01:34:52):
vena keela, that one, yes, right, the one that hits
the vein that.

Speaker 6 (01:34:55):
Leads to the heart. Yes, that one was much deeper,
wasn't it.

Speaker 4 (01:34:58):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:34:59):
Okay? And so typically, and that.

Speaker 3 (01:35:01):
Had to go through cartilage also, yes, And so that
one would require more force, wouldn't.

Speaker 7 (01:35:06):
It more than just going through soft tissue or fat Yes, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:35:11):
And in these instances, the wounds on the back, those ones,
you didn't see any chipping of.

Speaker 6 (01:35:18):
The bone or anything like that. And you'd agree, wouldn't
you that if somebody were.

Speaker 3 (01:35:26):
If somebody were standing and they were faced the two
people were standing facing each other and the person with
the knife is reaching over the back, that's going to
have less force to it, wouldn't it than somebody who's
standing behind and being able to drive the knife right
in without stop.

Speaker 7 (01:35:44):
Generally I'd agree with that, yes, all right.

Speaker 3 (01:35:49):
So the wound to the one that we were just
talking about, to the vena cava in the pictures, we
saw that there's it's it was fasically in the middle
of below his chest, right lower right chest, Yes, okay.
And that one you said would eventually be fatal without

(01:36:09):
medical attention.

Speaker 6 (01:36:10):
Yes, And that's due to blood loss. Yes, that wound.

Speaker 3 (01:36:18):
You were able to tell a direction or a trajectory
on that wound, right.

Speaker 7 (01:36:24):
Yes, it's uh, it's it's pretty much straight under the
chest cavity from the right side of the chest.

Speaker 3 (01:36:30):
Okay, doesn't it doesn't it have a slipper slightly upward trajectory? Di?

Speaker 7 (01:36:38):
If it is, it's very slight because the heart is right,
the VD cave is right in that location where the
wound is.

Speaker 3 (01:36:50):
Well, doesn't it have and I don't know, let me
know if you need to see a picture. But doesn't
it have an undetermined lower edge so that it's going
to be as slightly upper trajectory as it's.

Speaker 7 (01:36:58):
Going in undetermined I don't know what lower edge. I
don't know what you mean by undetermined lower edge. Okay, undermined,
under mind, I'm sorry, underminded. Yes, so that would indicate
that the blade is angled slightly upward as it's going
into the skin. So if you see more tissue on
the lower part than the upper part, then that's consistent
with that. Or you also have to keep in mind

(01:37:18):
that this is a decomposed person, so the characters of
the wounds can change a bit.

Speaker 3 (01:37:23):
Okay, but based on what you saw, you would say
that based on the what you were just talking.

Speaker 6 (01:37:28):
About, the undermined edge. Based on that, you can tell
us that more than likely there was. It was going
in in an upper.

Speaker 3 (01:37:34):
Trajectory, right generally, that's true, yes, okay, And that means
it's going from down to us.

Speaker 7 (01:37:40):
Yes, as the tip of the wound, as the tip
of the weapon is going into the body, it has
a slightly upward trend to it, yes, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:37:47):
And that and that can happen when somebody is taller
than the person who has the knife.

Speaker 6 (01:37:52):
Right, you have to reach up.

Speaker 7 (01:37:55):
In a general way. Yes, that's true.

Speaker 3 (01:37:59):
And you said that one, but that one is mostly
straight in as far as it's in.

Speaker 6 (01:38:09):
Other words, it's not diangonal coming from the right.

Speaker 4 (01:38:11):
Of the left.

Speaker 6 (01:38:12):
Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (01:38:13):
Uh?

Speaker 7 (01:38:13):
The vita cave is slightly on the right side of
the body, the right side of the chest, so it's
right underneath where the stab room goes in. So its
essentially straight in and maybe with a slight word up
a slightly oper trajectory.

Speaker 1 (01:38:23):
Okay, just me, doctor Horne.

Speaker 6 (01:38:35):
I know you haven't seen that photo prior to today,
Is that right?

Speaker 4 (01:38:39):
No?

Speaker 6 (01:38:39):
I haven't, Okay, In that photo. Can you see a
person's head.

Speaker 7 (01:38:44):
I think so, and a shoulder yes, and.

Speaker 3 (01:38:47):
What appears to be an arm, yes.

Speaker 6 (01:38:50):
And then at the very.

Speaker 3 (01:38:53):
Back portion of the picture, and you can tell it's
a distance cause it's small.

Speaker 6 (01:38:57):
Is a foot right?

Speaker 7 (01:38:59):
Could be a foot?

Speaker 4 (01:39:00):
All right?

Speaker 3 (01:39:01):
I'm going to ask you to assume that that picture
is of mister Alexander. Okay, okay, and Jojo, I was
going to ask to publish to the jury for demonstrative purposes.

Speaker 4 (01:39:12):
In the exhibit number for the record, and jo to
move it into evidence. What's sixty two?

Speaker 5 (01:39:22):
Any objection? No objection?

Speaker 2 (01:39:24):
One sixty two is admitted anyway.

Speaker 8 (01:39:29):
Okay.

Speaker 6 (01:39:29):
So what we were talking about is here you can
see what appears to be ahead.

Speaker 5 (01:39:36):
Right, yes, all right.

Speaker 6 (01:39:39):
And this appears to be an arm I.

Speaker 7 (01:39:42):
Think so, yes, okay.

Speaker 6 (01:39:44):
And then this would be somebody's shoulder, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:39:47):
And then the very distant part of the picture you
can see what appears to be a foot.

Speaker 7 (01:39:50):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (01:39:51):
So in this picture it would appear to be somebody
lying down almost on the floor. Right, it appears that
the person.

Speaker 5 (01:40:01):
Is lying up.

Speaker 7 (01:40:01):
I think if this is tile here, yes, that would
be him laying on his back.

Speaker 6 (01:40:05):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:40:07):
And you can see what would appear to be blood, right, Yes,
something that's dripping over his shoulder.

Speaker 6 (01:40:14):
Yes, and that would be that would be the person's
right shoulder, wouldn't it.

Speaker 7 (01:40:20):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:40:22):
And also in this picture of the arm is up,
isn't it.

Speaker 7 (01:40:27):
It looks like it's flexed up.

Speaker 4 (01:40:29):
Yes, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:40:30):
So in other words, it's not just laying limb on
the floor right right, okay.

Speaker 6 (01:40:34):
And the head is also.

Speaker 7 (01:40:35):
Up right, yes, except that I don't know what this
blue object is, if it's something that the head's resting against,
or what this is in the floor ground?

Speaker 6 (01:40:44):
Does this appear to be like a foot and then
a pant leg.

Speaker 7 (01:40:49):
Could be?

Speaker 3 (01:40:50):
Okay, But from what you can tell from the shoulder,
the shoulder doesn't The shoulder is definitely off the ground.

Speaker 4 (01:40:57):
Isn't it.

Speaker 7 (01:40:59):
I think? So?

Speaker 6 (01:41:00):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (01:41:01):
And assume for a second, if this is mister Alexander
once the wound to the neck occurs, having his head
up and his arm up.

Speaker 6 (01:41:13):
Certainly his head up, that would be near impossible, wouldn't it.

Speaker 7 (01:41:17):
Well, Like I said, he's going to have a few
seconds of consciousness. I mean, certainly enough if he's laying
on the ground to raise an arm or raise a head.
That wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility.

Speaker 6 (01:41:28):
But unlikely, isn't it.

Speaker 7 (01:41:30):
I wouldn't say that, No, I wouldn't think he'd be
getting up and walking around. But picking your head up
or moving your arm.

Speaker 6 (01:41:37):
Is not impossible, okay. And you can see the blood
coming over the shoulder right, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:41:43):
And if there was a neck wound at this point,
wouldn't you expect to see quite a bit more blood
than that.

Speaker 7 (01:41:49):
I don't see what's underneath him. That seems to be
a lot of blood to me, But I have no
way of quantifying or telling how much is here, just based.

Speaker 4 (01:41:57):
On this photo.

Speaker 8 (01:41:58):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:41:59):
But we you know that the blood is on the
right hand side, right, yes, And we can tell that,
at least from the picture. It looks like the blood
is dripping down the back. There's in other words, it's
like a drip, isn't.

Speaker 7 (01:42:12):
It right, there's a I mean, there's a large area
of blood going back, and there's some dripping on either
side of that large area of blood.

Speaker 5 (01:42:22):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:42:23):
And we do know for sure that the gunshot wound
was to his right side, wasn't it.

Speaker 7 (01:42:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:42:28):
I want to talk to you a little bit more
about the gunshot wound. Let's see.

Speaker 3 (01:42:39):
And we know what the gunshot wound, obviously, you discuss
it in your in your examination report, right, yes, And
and you talk about the track of the bullet begins
in the frontal skull, is that right? And when you

(01:43:00):
refer to the frontal skull, you're referring to a bone.

Speaker 7 (01:43:03):
Yes, the frontal bone of that skull.

Speaker 3 (01:43:06):
And we know that it ends in the facial skeleton
near the left cheek.

Speaker 4 (01:43:09):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:43:10):
And again, as you told me earlier, the facial skeleton,
you're referring to a bone, right, a maxillary bone, all right,
now in your report, and let.

Speaker 6 (01:43:25):
Me just ask you.

Speaker 3 (01:43:25):
You did this report, actually you did the autopsy on
June twelfth.

Speaker 6 (01:43:28):
Of two thousand and eight.

Speaker 4 (01:43:29):
Is that right? Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:43:31):
Okay, So on June twelfth of.

Speaker 3 (01:43:33):
Two thousand and eight, after doing your report, you found
that there was no evidence, no without, no gross evidence
of significant intercranial hemorrhage.

Speaker 6 (01:43:44):
Is that right? And I'm looking at page.

Speaker 7 (01:43:46):
Four, yes, page four of my report, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:43:49):
And when you talk about significant intracranial hemorrhge, you're talking
about bleeding through the brain, is that right?

Speaker 7 (01:43:56):
Right? And this at this point, the brain is really
non existent. It's almost you can't examine it. It's become liquid.

Speaker 6 (01:44:03):
You can't examine it at all.

Speaker 7 (01:44:05):
It's very difficult.

Speaker 6 (01:44:06):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:44:06):
Well, but didn't you actually take slices of the brain
and I'm referring to page seven.

Speaker 7 (01:44:13):
Yes, so it is softened, it's not liquefied.

Speaker 3 (01:44:16):
It is still present, but it's softened, all right, So
you were able it's still there, right, Yes.

Speaker 7 (01:44:22):
It's always there. It's just a state that it's in.

Speaker 5 (01:44:24):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:44:25):
So the state that it was in, though, is that
you were able to actually take what's called autolized brain,
multiple serial sections of audolized brain.

Speaker 7 (01:44:35):
Right, So the autolysis or audolized that's a term that
refers to the liquefied brain tissue or a very soften
brain tissue.

Speaker 5 (01:44:43):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:44:44):
And when you talk about multiple serial sections, does that
mean that you're taking slices of the brain.

Speaker 7 (01:44:49):
To look through it as best I can. I'm running
a knife through the brain and trying to examine it.
That may maybe actual sections or may just be in
terms of trying to inspect the internal parts of that
tissue whatever's there.

Speaker 6 (01:45:03):
Okay, but according to your report, that's.

Speaker 4 (01:45:06):
What you did.

Speaker 3 (01:45:07):
Right, right, and in there so, so in this part
of your report, after going through these sections again you
say it does not reveal the presence of grossly apparent traumpa.

Speaker 6 (01:45:22):
Is that right?

Speaker 8 (01:45:23):
Right?

Speaker 3 (01:45:23):
So, by taking through these sections again, you don't find
any evidence of trauma or like a bullet track through
the brain.

Speaker 7 (01:45:31):
Nothing so clearly define, no no hemorrhage, no foreign bodies,
no metal fragments. Right, And we know.

Speaker 3 (01:45:38):
That people who have had injuries to their brains depending
on this section of the brain, they're not always incapacitated.

Speaker 5 (01:45:46):
Isn't that true for the most part.

Speaker 7 (01:45:49):
If you have a bullet passed through the brain, you're
not going to be standing, You're not going to be functional,
You're going to fall, and like I said earlier in
direct be immediately fatal. In fact, it likely wasn't passing
through the frontal part of the brain, especially it's not
as vital. I mean, they're all vital structures, but it's
not as vital as the brain stem or the back

(01:46:09):
parts of the brain.

Speaker 3 (01:46:10):
Well, just so we're claire, you don't actually have any
medical evidence of it passing through the brain.

Speaker 7 (01:46:14):
Right, It had to have passed through the brain.

Speaker 6 (01:46:17):
You don't have any medical evidence of that, do you.

Speaker 4 (01:46:19):
I do.

Speaker 7 (01:46:20):
The skull is perforated where the brain is, so it
had to have passed through the brain.

Speaker 3 (01:46:24):
The brain is there, But you have no idea, You
have no medical evidence of how far or what part
of the brain exactly would have hit.

Speaker 7 (01:46:33):
Right, it would have passed through the right frontal lobe.
I just don't have any evidence of hemorrhage now because
of decomposition. But it had to have passed through the
brain because of the part of the skull that was injured.
The brain, and a young person especially is flush against
against that structure. The brain occupies the entire skull. So
to have a hole in the skull here and an
exit in here, it has to pass through the brain.

Speaker 4 (01:46:55):
Well, the exits there's no exit exit from the skull
cavity into the face.

Speaker 3 (01:47:02):
So but what you're saying, though, is you have no
idea how where that bullet might have hit.

Speaker 6 (01:47:09):
It could have just grazed the tip of the brain, right.

Speaker 7 (01:47:12):
No, it had to pass through the right frontal lobe
of the brain based on where these holes in the
skull are. And you no way it could have avoided
the brain.

Speaker 6 (01:47:19):
Okay, And you're sure of that.

Speaker 3 (01:47:20):
Yes, what I was talking about earlier was that with
brain injuries. I mean, we've all heard the stories of
people the person who had the arrow stuck through went
through his skull and hit his brain, or the person
who had a I don't know if it was an
arrow or what, but actually goes through the brain, and

(01:47:42):
these people are coming to the er. You've heard those stories, right,
Those are different, Okay, but those are people who've had
brain injuries.

Speaker 7 (01:47:48):
Right, not with projectiles. With firearms, So you don't just
have an arrow or an object passing through the head.
With a firearm, you also have gas and you have
an expansile cavity that damages the brain as that goes through.
So you can shoot an arrow through the brain. It's
a much lower velocity projectile and will not cause a
large temporary cavity to open up in the brain tissue

(01:48:10):
like a projectile would, like a firearm projectile.

Speaker 3 (01:48:13):
Would, So those don't cause as much damage as a
bullet does.

Speaker 7 (01:48:16):
That's right, that's right.

Speaker 3 (01:48:18):
But you didn't see any damage even in your slices.

Speaker 7 (01:48:22):
Right, right, you could not document the damage because of
the decomposition.

Speaker 3 (01:48:28):
Now your findings during the autopsy that would be something
that you would explain to Detective Floors, right, preliminarily, yes, okay,
And he's going to get a copy of it, a.

Speaker 7 (01:48:40):
Copy of my final report, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:48:42):
Yes, all right, And like you said before, he's free
to call you with questions if he doesn't know what
you mean by something.

Speaker 4 (01:48:47):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:48:49):
And do you remember speaking to Detective Floors about a
close to a year later after the autopsy?

Speaker 7 (01:48:53):
No?

Speaker 6 (01:48:54):
Do you remember speaking Detective Floors ever?

Speaker 5 (01:48:56):
Again?

Speaker 7 (01:48:57):
No?

Speaker 6 (01:48:57):
Do you think you didn't or do you just not remember?

Speaker 7 (01:49:00):
I don't recall.

Speaker 6 (01:49:01):
No, do you have any memory.

Speaker 3 (01:49:04):
Of ever speaking of the Detective Flores about this particular autopsy
after June twelfth?

Speaker 4 (01:49:09):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:49:11):
So, then any information that Detective Floras would have gotten
from you would have been from June twelfth, th two
thousand and eight.

Speaker 6 (01:49:18):
Is that right?

Speaker 7 (01:49:19):
I have no idea.

Speaker 6 (01:49:21):
Well, I mean you spoke him on June twelfth, right,
I assume.

Speaker 7 (01:49:23):
So is listed as present on my report, but I
don't remember him being there.

Speaker 6 (01:49:27):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:49:29):
And you said you've done six thousand or so autopsies
something like that, all.

Speaker 6 (01:49:32):
Right, and when police are involved?

Speaker 3 (01:49:35):
Police have been present during your autopsies, right, yes, okay,
So it makes it difficult.

Speaker 6 (01:49:40):
I'm sure they run together, did they not?

Speaker 3 (01:49:42):
But you know when your report that Detective Flores was there,
you know that from because it was documented.

Speaker 7 (01:49:47):
Just yes, the documentation, all.

Speaker 3 (01:49:49):
Right, and so the information about let's talk about the
gunshot wound first. So any information that Detective Flor has
had about the gunshot wound, I guess then would have

(01:50:09):
come from June twelfth, right, if you don't remember ever
talking to him again?

Speaker 4 (01:50:12):
Objection spagulation is the detective Doors might have contangous.

Speaker 5 (01:50:16):
Information overworlding the answer?

Speaker 7 (01:50:20):
Sorry, can you ask it again?

Speaker 3 (01:50:21):
You're the You're the only doctor who did this autopsy, correct,
and so any information that Detective Floras has about the
autopsy itself would.

Speaker 6 (01:50:30):
Have come from you, right.

Speaker 4 (01:50:31):
Objection stand.

Speaker 3 (01:50:35):
Any information would have come from the autopsy that you did.

Speaker 4 (01:50:38):
Objection speculation. And as to what information she's talking about, Sustine.

Speaker 6 (01:50:48):
You provided your report to Detective Floors, right, not.

Speaker 7 (01:50:52):
Myself personally, but my office would have mailed it to him.

Speaker 6 (01:50:54):
It Yes, it goes to the police department, doesn't it.

Speaker 4 (01:50:56):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:50:56):
Okay, isn't it true that at some point you told
Detective Floors that you believed the first wound was the shot.

Speaker 5 (01:51:08):
To the head.

Speaker 7 (01:51:10):
But I don't recall ever saying that.

Speaker 6 (01:51:12):
So you think you never told Detective Flores that.

Speaker 7 (01:51:15):
I don't think that's consistent with the evidence that I have,
and I don't remember ever saying anything like that.

Speaker 3 (01:51:19):
Okay, So what your testimony is, I just want to
be clear, is that you never told Detective Floors that
the gunshot wound was the first wound.

Speaker 7 (01:51:27):
I don't believe I ever said.

Speaker 3 (01:51:31):
And do you remember telling Detective Floors that you knew
this because the gunshot wound wouldn't have completely incapacitated somebody.

Speaker 7 (01:51:43):
I don't recall saying that either.

Speaker 3 (01:51:45):
Is that something that you think you would have never
said to Detective Flors.

Speaker 7 (01:51:48):
I think I've said it here in court that I
don't think it would immediately incapacity him or kill him,
but it would be it would be a serious injury.
But I don't recall telling our Detective Flora as that.

Speaker 3 (01:51:58):
Now, okay, so let me back up for a second.
So you're saying that the gunshot wound is not immediately incapacitating.

Speaker 7 (01:52:05):
I would say not immediately fatal.

Speaker 3 (01:52:07):
Okay, I'm not talking about fat, I'm just talking about incapacitating.

Speaker 7 (01:52:11):
I think yes, I think that it would be incapacitating.
It's passing through his brain, so yes, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:52:16):
So, and that's assuming it passed through his brain, you
you would say it's incapacitating.

Speaker 7 (01:52:21):
Right, I'm saying it did pass through his brain, all right.

Speaker 3 (01:52:24):
And so so then you wouldn't have told Detective Flores
that that that particular gunshot wound would not have completely
incapacitated someone, right, I guess you wouldn't.

Speaker 4 (01:52:38):
Have said that.

Speaker 7 (01:52:38):
I don't recall saying I don't recall having a conversation
with the detective anything.

Speaker 6 (01:52:43):
I'm sorry I missed.

Speaker 7 (01:52:44):
I don't recall having a conversation with the detective at
all about this case.

Speaker 3 (01:52:52):
So do you remember then telling you the detective Floras
that mister Alexander could have been unconscious, but then you
suspect that he became conscious?

Speaker 6 (01:52:59):
Again, No, I don't recall saying that, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:53:03):
And you suspect that he became conscious or that you
knew he was conscious because there's defensive wounds.

Speaker 7 (01:53:08):
Well, I think you'd have to be conscious during the
defensive wounds. I don't recall telling Detective Flora is that okay?

Speaker 3 (01:53:15):
But if the gunshot wound comes first, and then the
defensive wounds.

Speaker 6 (01:53:21):
Come after that. Obviously he would have to be conscious
for that.

Speaker 7 (01:53:24):
I don't think that makes sense. I don't think he
got the gunshot wound and then got defensive wounds. I
think he would have been unconscious.

Speaker 6 (01:53:29):
Okay, So that's something you never told Detective Flores.

Speaker 7 (01:53:33):
Again, I don't recall ever having a conversation with him
about anything.

Speaker 3 (01:53:39):
So if you don't recall ever having a conversation with
Detective Floors, and we know that Detective Floors when that was.

Speaker 6 (01:53:47):
At the autopsy, right, right, So then can we assume
then that you never spoke to him again?

Speaker 7 (01:53:54):
That was ten years ago. I don't remember.

Speaker 6 (01:53:57):
It wasn't ten years ago. It was in two thousand
and eight, several years ago, Okay, Okay.

Speaker 7 (01:54:03):
So you don't remember speak to him again.

Speaker 3 (01:54:06):
So then it's possible that you spoke to Detective Floors, sure, okay.
And it's then possible that you might have said these
things to Detective Flors.

Speaker 7 (01:54:17):
I don't believe I would say those things. No, I
don't think they're consistent with what I'm saying here.

Speaker 3 (01:54:21):
Okay, And so I guess the one thing we can
agree on is that the wound to the neck. That
one was most certainly fatal the quickest, right, Yes, that's
the most significant one in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (01:54:32):
Yes, just mada a minute.

Speaker 3 (01:54:37):
Do you remember giving the opinion to detect, your opinion
to Detective Floors that the cut to the throat was
the last wound, and so Detective Flores would have testified
in some other hearing that that's.

Speaker 6 (01:54:51):
What you told him.

Speaker 4 (01:54:53):
He's wrongs the stick.

Speaker 6 (01:55:00):
And you remembered. I take it you have no memory
of discussing the scene photographs with Detective Flores.

Speaker 7 (01:55:12):
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (01:55:13):
And in discussing the scene.

Speaker 3 (01:55:14):
Photographs with Detective Flores, telling Detective Flores that the gunshot
wound would not have.

Speaker 6 (01:55:19):
Completely incapacitated mister Alexander.

Speaker 3 (01:55:21):
I can.

Speaker 7 (01:55:22):
I've been answering this question. I do not have any
recollection of that.

Speaker 1 (01:55:26):
No, okay, all right, thank you, good reader.

Speaker 4 (01:55:31):
Bret, sir. In terms of a work, in terms of
the sequencing of the wounds, do you remember having an
interview with this individual sitting here with the glasses, do
you remember having an interview with him?

Speaker 7 (01:55:45):
Vaguely? I do remember the defense and you were interviewed
with regard to this case, right, Yes, and you have
a copy of that interview, don't you? I do.

Speaker 4 (01:55:51):
And you were asked about the sequencing of these injuries,
weren't you?

Speaker 7 (01:55:55):
Yes, Sustaine all right?

Speaker 5 (01:55:59):
Did you talk to them about the sequencing of the injuries?

Speaker 7 (01:56:02):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (01:56:03):
And at any time did you stop the interview and
say no, I don't want to talk to you about
the sequencing of the injuries. No?

Speaker 5 (01:56:09):
And were you asked about the sequencing of the injuries?

Speaker 4 (01:56:13):
Yes? And what did you tell them during that interview
that you had with them?

Speaker 7 (01:56:17):
I felt that the gunshot wound may have been last,
but at any event, the gunshot wounds and the wounds
the neck would have had to have come after the
defensive wounds of the hands.

Speaker 4 (01:56:29):
And is that what you told us today?

Speaker 7 (01:56:31):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (01:56:32):
That'll serve with regard to the procedure or the process
that takes place when a body is brought in. In
terms of when you conduct the examination, who is in
the room with you?

Speaker 7 (01:56:44):
Forensic technicians, photographers, sometimes medical students.

Speaker 4 (01:56:49):
Do you take the photographs?

Speaker 7 (01:56:51):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:56:52):
In terms of the individuals from law enforcement, you indicated
that they're there via your report.

Speaker 7 (01:56:59):
Right, Yes, they're in an observation area.

Speaker 4 (01:57:01):
But in terms of the examination, room itself. Is the
detective they're looking over your shoulder and questioning you as
you conduct this examination? Is that how it's done out there?
No where are they physically speaking the detective when this
examination is going on.

Speaker 7 (01:57:16):
They're in an observation bay, separated by glass.

Speaker 4 (01:57:19):
And if they want to talk to you during this
particular process, how does that work? In other words, if
they want to provide you advice as to whether or
not an injury, whether through the brain or not, how
is it that they provide this advice to you? They
don't generally, But if they do want to talk to you,
how does it happen?

Speaker 7 (01:57:38):
If they have a handset they can pick up and
I can hear them in the in the autopsy area,
and then I will come to the door of the
window and I'll talk to them.

Speaker 4 (01:57:46):
And as you're conducting this examination, is it your practice
to immediately form an opinion as to which injury is first,
which is second, and which is third? If there's three
of them?

Speaker 7 (01:57:57):
No, why not?

Speaker 4 (01:57:59):
Why would you not immediately tell them, Oh, I know
this was the first one, this one the second one, one,
this is the third one.

Speaker 5 (01:58:04):
Why wouldn't you do it that way?

Speaker 4 (01:58:06):
Well?

Speaker 7 (01:58:06):
Often We can never establish that, but I do want
to have an opportunity to look at the whole case,
get investigative reports back, get toxicology, histology, and then come
to a final report.

Speaker 4 (01:58:16):
And this report that you prepare, when does it due?
In other words, how long does it take you to
prepare this report.

Speaker 7 (01:58:22):
With your impressions various minimum of a month, maximum of
four to five months depends.

Speaker 5 (01:58:28):
In this case, I think you conducted the autopsy.

Speaker 4 (01:58:31):
What June sixteenth?

Speaker 7 (01:58:33):
I think June twelfth, June.

Speaker 4 (01:58:35):
Twelfth, And what is your what date is your report dated.

Speaker 7 (01:58:39):
July fifteenth?

Speaker 4 (01:58:41):
And how many so that's roughly.

Speaker 7 (01:58:43):
What I'm monthly there for five weeks?

Speaker 4 (01:58:46):
And how many pages is your report?

Speaker 7 (01:58:51):
Eight pages?

Speaker 4 (01:58:52):
And in that report, is there any place that indicates
that the gunshot wound, or which were which injury was
first or last? Any word? Does it indicate that no,
in terms of you being asked about the sequence of
events in terms of these fatal injuries, when according to
your records, it was the first time that you were
asked about the sequencing of events.

Speaker 7 (01:59:14):
According to my recollection, it would have been at the
defense interview.

Speaker 4 (01:59:17):
And before that, didn't write it in your report, right?

Speaker 7 (01:59:20):
That's right.

Speaker 4 (01:59:21):
And is it your practice to write the sequencing of
events in your report? No, why not?

Speaker 7 (01:59:28):
It would be speculative. And I am simply providing information
about the injuries that I see.

Speaker 4 (01:59:33):
And then once you've got a chance to have all
this information before you, that's when you make your determination.

Speaker 7 (01:59:38):
Then, right, Yes, you.

Speaker 4 (01:59:40):
Were asked about this photograph here, which is exhibit number.

Speaker 7 (01:59:45):
One sixty two.

Speaker 5 (01:59:46):
Let me have it worked, since it is.

Speaker 4 (01:59:49):
One of the things that you weren't able to see.
Is there's a date and time associated with that? Correctly?

Speaker 7 (01:59:58):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (01:59:58):
What is the date if you can see it?

Speaker 7 (02:00:00):
And June fourth, two thousand and eight, five thirty two
in the evening sixteen seconds, sixteen.

Speaker 4 (02:00:07):
Seconds, and it does show ahead, right. And you were
asked on and over or not whether this was a foot?
Do you remember that? Yes, if that were a human
being's foot. Would you have any problem saying that perhaps
this human being had another foot if they were a

(02:00:28):
normal human being?

Speaker 2 (02:00:29):
No?

Speaker 4 (02:00:30):
And do you have any problems saying that this individual,
if you had two feet, would also have two arms.

Speaker 7 (02:00:35):
Yes, well you would you would.

Speaker 5 (02:00:37):
Know that they would, right, Yes, do you know whether or.

Speaker 4 (02:00:41):
Not the right arm the left arm? Do you know
what that right or left arm is doing. No, do
you know whether or not that right arm or left
arm is holding what you said may have been a
right arm, whether or not that's holding up that arm.

Speaker 7 (02:00:56):
That's certainly possible.

Speaker 4 (02:00:58):
And you don't know what, for example, the left arm
is doing.

Speaker 7 (02:01:02):
Do you that's correct?

Speaker 5 (02:01:04):
And this part up here.

Speaker 4 (02:01:07):
I know that this is stringing a little bit of credibility.
And I don't know medical science. But that's the top
of the head, right, And if I'm not telling me
that right?

Speaker 7 (02:01:16):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (02:01:16):
And this part right here is the neck right. Yes,
you see any blood coming down this from the top
of the head.

Speaker 5 (02:01:23):
It's very dark.

Speaker 7 (02:01:24):
I can't say for sure weather.

Speaker 4 (02:01:25):
But can you see any blood coming from the neck
area there? Yes? And if you see the blood coming
from the neck area and you know the injuries, and
assuming this is Travis Alexander, what would you associate.

Speaker 7 (02:01:35):
That blood with they cut to the threat and.

Speaker 4 (02:01:39):
With regard to the injury to the to the to
the chest area. If his head is up in that
position and his arm is being left in that position,
and knowing what you know about gravity, which you think
that this blood was coming from the injuries? Was chess
for the neck.

Speaker 7 (02:01:56):
Area, neck area, so things that you.

Speaker 4 (02:02:00):
Were asked about, was the clost to the back do
you remember being asked about that? And this question may
or may not be your area. But with regard to
human beings, are men's are just longer than women's or not?

Speaker 5 (02:02:18):
I don't know, generally longer, yes, And with regard to.

Speaker 4 (02:02:24):
A person's body, generally speaking, is a man's body upper
chest is that bigger or smaller than a woman's upper chest?

Speaker 7 (02:02:33):
Bigger, bigger?

Speaker 4 (02:02:35):
And you were asked about the injuries that were to
the back do you remember that yes?

Speaker 5 (02:02:40):
And you were asked, wow, is it possible that somebody
could have come around and with those injuries, with those
given what those injuries.

Speaker 4 (02:02:49):
Are there, that they would have come around.

Speaker 5 (02:02:52):
And done this and done the injuries about then?

Speaker 4 (02:02:54):
Do you remember being asked that yes? And you said, well,
it's possible, right, Yes. With regard to that particular scenario,
is it also possible that an individual could be hunched
over and somebody came up behind him and started inflicting
those kinds of injuries?

Speaker 5 (02:03:10):
Are they consistent with that?

Speaker 4 (02:03:11):
Yes? And with regard to the injury to the chest,
you said, well, it's slightly outboard. Do you remember saying that, yes,
is it possible that with regard to that injury could
come up like this? Was that possible?

Speaker 7 (02:03:23):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (02:03:23):
Is there any impediment or anything that way to doing
something like that?

Speaker 4 (02:03:26):
No? Do we have to wrap arms around somebody to
do to get that injury? Or can we do it
just like this?

Speaker 7 (02:03:35):
It can be from the front door back?

Speaker 4 (02:03:36):
What is it consistent that injury? If somebody is sitting
down they almost realize, Andrew, is it consistent if he's
sitting down and somebody is standing then you come up
and do that? Is that consistent with that? The issue
of the gunshot wound? Did the gunshot wound go to

(02:03:57):
the front, go through the frontal lobe or not it
if it goes through the frontalb What does the human
body do when a gunshot goes through the front at.

Speaker 7 (02:04:06):
Well, there's a shock delivered to the entire brain as
a projectile is passing through. So it's not just like
an arrow or a nail. You also got expansing, expanding gases.
You've got a tumbling projectile. So generally you're going to
have it's a shock situation, neurologic shock, and those people.

Speaker 4 (02:04:21):
Are and that gunshot one that we're talking about, did
it go through the mouth or not?

Speaker 7 (02:04:29):
It goes above the mouth. It's in the in the
sinus structures, so bleeding out of the mouth is certainly possible.

Speaker 5 (02:04:34):
And it ended up in the left cheek.

Speaker 4 (02:04:37):
The distance of.

Speaker 7 (02:04:40):
The distance of the.

Speaker 4 (02:04:41):
Gunshot one, you said it was indeterminate, right, yes, And
that's based on the fact that you don't see any
stiplings there. Right, that's right and indeterminate to you in
this case? What's the if it's indeterminate, I know what
the word means, but how far? Can you give us

(02:05:02):
any parameters whatsoever as to how far or how close
the gunshot was?

Speaker 7 (02:05:07):
Again, I'm not a ballistics expert. Generally speaking, for most firearms,
it's going to be a minimum distance of a couple
of feet at least.

Speaker 4 (02:05:17):
And this gunshot wound was there hemorrhage, hemorrhaging that was
associated with it on the path that.

Speaker 7 (02:05:25):
It traveled in the scalp and in the cheek area,
there is some hemorrhage. There is no hemorrhage, but it
detected in the skull itself.

Speaker 4 (02:05:33):
And what does that mean to you in terms of
the sequencing, whether or not the person was alive or
not alive.

Speaker 5 (02:05:39):
If there's no blood.

Speaker 7 (02:05:40):
There, If there's less blood, it may mean that the
other injuries preceded that and there was just less bleeding
because there was less blood to come out of the body.

Speaker 4 (02:05:49):
Could do this person have been dead at the time
that the gunshot.

Speaker 5 (02:05:51):
Wound was inflicted.

Speaker 7 (02:05:52):
That's possible.

Speaker 4 (02:05:53):
Yes, And in terms of what an individual may have
said or didn't say, you did indicate.

Speaker 5 (02:06:01):
That your report does indicate that.

Speaker 4 (02:06:04):
Detective Flores was at the autopsy, right yes. Does it
happen m D after his name?

Speaker 2 (02:06:12):
Maybe it is said no.

Speaker 4 (02:06:15):
So in terms of this individual detective Flores, what he
may or may have said, do you have any a
DA where he gained his knowledge?

Speaker 7 (02:06:24):
I don't know, but.

Speaker 4 (02:06:26):
Your knowledge is based on what you saw, what at
the autopsy, your schooling, and anything else that was provided
to you, right yes, I don't have anything else, Thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:06:37):
Does any member of the jury have a question for
this witness? I see no hands me step down. State
may call its next witness.

Speaker 4 (02:06:45):
Elizabeth, or there's very approach before you there you may architecture.

Speaker 8 (02:06:53):
Let's spoil your last name for me. Penn O R
T H C U t t.

Speaker 4 (02:07:00):
Be sure.

Speaker 6 (02:07:00):
I am you saw me swear.

Speaker 3 (02:07:02):
The testimony you're about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing about the truth.

Speaker 4 (02:07:05):
So help you God, I do thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:07:08):
Please walk around and have a seat.

Speaker 5 (02:07:12):
Marynad Elizabeth A.

Speaker 6 (02:07:14):
North Cut And who do you work for the City of.

Speaker 8 (02:07:17):
Me Police former Friends of Services section?

Speaker 5 (02:07:20):
What do you do for them?

Speaker 7 (02:07:22):
I'm a friends and.

Speaker 4 (02:07:23):
Firearms examiner and as a firearms examiner? What are your
day to day duties?

Speaker 8 (02:07:28):
I do firearms examinations, cartridge case and examinations, distance determinations,
surround member restorations. UH, respond to crime scenes for documentation.

Speaker 4 (02:07:40):
The microphones a little bit far away from the money.
So what in front of you now? How long have
you been uh employed involving uh this particular area in firearms?

Speaker 5 (02:07:51):
Yes, eight years?

Speaker 4 (02:07:53):
And in this the involving the investigation or the murder
of Travis Alexander.

Speaker 5 (02:07:58):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (02:07:58):
Did you have occasion to.

Speaker 5 (02:07:59):
Take a low at a cartridge case?

Speaker 8 (02:08:02):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (02:08:02):
I did. What is a cartridge casing?

Speaker 8 (02:08:05):
A cartridge casing is a container that holds powder, a
primer and a bullet and a cartridge, which is a
basic unit of ammunition.

Speaker 4 (02:08:13):
You said that it holds a bullet. Does the casing
always have to hold a bullet or not?

Speaker 8 (02:08:17):
No, it doesn't.

Speaker 4 (02:08:18):
What if a bullet is fired, what happens to the casing?

Speaker 8 (02:08:21):
Then it's a fire cartridge case.

Speaker 4 (02:08:23):
With regard to the casing, if it is fired from
a semi automatic handgun, what happens to the casing after
the bullet is fired?

Speaker 8 (02:08:35):
It is extracted and ejected.

Speaker 4 (02:08:37):
What is a semi automatic handgun and why is the
casing extracted and ejected?

Speaker 8 (02:08:44):
A semi automatic handgun is a handgun that it extracts
me ejects fire cartridge cases. When the cartridge case is fired,
the firing pin hits the primer which is in the
back of the cartridge case, and that ignites the powder
inside the cartridge case, which begins to burning gas. That
gas and pressure inside of the cartridge case, which then
pushes the bullet down the barrel and on its way

(02:09:06):
toward a target. The pressure also pushes back on the
slide in a semi autopistol and extracts and ejects that
cartridge case.

Speaker 4 (02:09:15):
Are you familiar with with a revolver? Yes, Sam, what's
and in terms of the casing issue and extraction.

Speaker 5 (02:09:22):
And and and putting.

Speaker 4 (02:09:24):
It out there? What is the difference?

Speaker 8 (02:09:27):
A revolver does not automatically extract an ejectified cartridge case.
You have to manually open the revolver's action and remove
the cartridge case before you can put another cartridge in
a chamber.

Speaker 4 (02:09:38):
So, if you find a casing at a scene, for example,
what does that indicate to you in terms of whether
it's a semi automatic or a revolver with revolvers.

Speaker 8 (02:09:49):
Or typically do not find cartridge cases.

Speaker 7 (02:09:50):
At a scene?

Speaker 8 (02:09:51):
Why is that you have to reload the car revolver
you'd have to open the action, remove the cartridge case
and leave it at the scene.

Speaker 4 (02:10:00):
Well, I think what I'm hearing you say is that
with a revolver you have to fire it, open up
the revolver part, take it out, and drop it and
then close it up again.

Speaker 5 (02:10:07):
Right, that's correct.

Speaker 4 (02:10:08):
And with the semi automatic, you fire the gun and
the casing comes out automatically.

Speaker 7 (02:10:14):
Right, that's correct.

Speaker 4 (02:10:15):
So if you see one had a scene, the indication
is perhaps as a semi automatic, it would be your opinion, right, Yes,
Now take a look at Exhibit two eighteen and see
if you're familiar with that. Yes, I am do you

(02:10:37):
recognize it, yes, and have you had occasion to examine it?
I have what kind of all it is? Is not all,
but it's a it's a casing. What is it that
you did with it to further this investigation or what
was it that you were asked to do?

Speaker 8 (02:10:52):
I examined the cartridge case and observed that it had
a headstamp. Okay, that read WIN twenty five Auto.

Speaker 4 (02:10:59):
What is the mean to you? When twenty five.

Speaker 8 (02:11:01):
Auto it is manufactured or branded is Winchester And when.

Speaker 4 (02:11:07):
It says auto I thought we were talking about semi
automatic can guns. Well, does the fact that it's say
auto on it means something to you?

Speaker 8 (02:11:15):
The auto is part of the name of the cartridge,
and it designates that it is designed to be fired
in a auto loading pistol.

Speaker 4 (02:11:23):
It's what now? What did you say? I didn't understand what.

Speaker 8 (02:11:27):
The auto in twenty five auto is part of the
caliber designation for the cartridge case, and so the auto
is in this particular instance indicates that it was this cartridge.
It's the designation. So twenty five auto is designed to
be fired in an autoloading pistol.

Speaker 4 (02:11:45):
So are you saying that this twenty five Auto can
only be fired in an automatic cantad?

Speaker 8 (02:11:49):
Is that what you're telling me?

Speaker 4 (02:11:51):
What is it that you're telling me? Is that just
the name of it, Winchester Auto twenty five auto? Is
that all?

Speaker 3 (02:11:55):
This?

Speaker 4 (02:11:56):
Is that all you're telling me?

Speaker 8 (02:11:57):
It's a caliber designation?

Speaker 4 (02:11:59):
Yes, okay? And in anything else with regard to that case, I.

Speaker 8 (02:12:07):
Entered that casing into the National Integrated Ballastics Information Network.

Speaker 4 (02:12:11):
Why would you do that?

Speaker 8 (02:12:12):
The database holds cartridge case images from other crimes, and
we enter images of other crime evidence in that database
to look for hits or high confidence candidates. So when
you enter a cartridge case into that, it gives you
a list of possible candidates. Back you go through those
correlations and you determine if there are any high confidence candidates.

(02:12:33):
So if there are any hits, I did not find
any in this case.

Speaker 4 (02:12:37):
So in this case, you entered in the database and
you got nothing back, right, that's correct. Anything else with
regard to that case and that you did, no, did
you also have a casion to work with Exhibit number
two forty four and this is the bullets from the
medical example.

Speaker 5 (02:13:06):
Yeah, yes, I did, okay, And.

Speaker 4 (02:13:15):
If you take a look at it, here Exhibit two ten.
You see it?

Speaker 8 (02:13:19):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (02:13:20):
Is that the bullet.

Speaker 8 (02:13:24):
It appears to be?

Speaker 4 (02:13:25):
When you say it appears to be always leaves room
for doubt. Do you need to open it to make
sure or not?

Speaker 5 (02:13:31):
Why don't you to open it up and take a
look at it to make sure it is the bullet?

Speaker 8 (02:13:45):
Yes, it is?

Speaker 5 (02:13:45):
Okay if you could go ahead and see it and
put it.

Speaker 4 (02:13:48):
Back for me. With regard to this bullet, were you
able to determine the caliber of this bullet? In other words,
can you just take a look at that bullet and
go back and see what the caliber of it is?

Speaker 8 (02:14:08):
I examined the basic characteristics physical characteristics of that bullet,
and I measured the base diameter, which helps help us
to figure out caliber. I also looked at the bullet
weight and the other style that the bullet has, and
all of those led me to the determination that this
is consistent with the twenty five Pato bullet.

Speaker 4 (02:14:30):
So you can go back and attempt to do that then, right, Yes,
And what is it that indicate? How much does a
twenty five caliber bullet.

Speaker 8 (02:14:38):
Way typically about fifty grains?

Speaker 4 (02:14:41):
Fifty grains?

Speaker 8 (02:14:41):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (02:14:42):
And how much did this bullet way forty four point
eight And the fact that it didn't weigh the same,
does that indicate to you that it isn't the twenty
five or that it is given the circumstances.

Speaker 8 (02:14:54):
No, bullets are frequently damaged when they're fired, and they
can lose weight that way, So that's not a big
discrepance forty four point eight to fifty grains.

Speaker 4 (02:15:02):
And anything else about the bullets that you found, for example,
any marking creations on it, anything like that.

Speaker 8 (02:15:09):
Yes, there were rifling impressions on the bullet.

Speaker 4 (02:15:13):
When you say rifling impressions, those are impressions on the boat, right,
it's correct. And these impressions on the bullet, what are
they made by?

Speaker 8 (02:15:22):
They're left by rifling inside the firearm.

Speaker 4 (02:15:25):
So isn't the muzzle of the gun that leaves them?
Is that where the rifling is.

Speaker 8 (02:15:28):
The rifling is from an entire barrel, So.

Speaker 4 (02:15:31):
It's the barrel of the gun. Yes, And what characteristics
did this one here?

Speaker 8 (02:15:36):
This one had six?

Speaker 7 (02:15:37):
Right?

Speaker 8 (02:15:38):
Rifling? What rifling is is it a series of helical
or spiral grooves that go the length of a barrel.
And what they do is they help impart stability to
the fire bullet.

Speaker 4 (02:15:49):
And so looking at the rifling, I think you said
it was six LANs and grooves.

Speaker 8 (02:15:53):
I think six lines and groves with the right hand twist.
They can either be right or left hand twist.

Speaker 4 (02:15:56):
So six lands and grooves with right hand twists. Is
that conan with a twenty five caliber bullet or not?
Or has nothing to do with that?

Speaker 8 (02:16:06):
It has nothing to do it?

Speaker 5 (02:16:07):
Okay?

Speaker 4 (02:16:08):
But is it your opinion that this is a twenty
five caliber? Yes?

Speaker 8 (02:16:12):
Fired twenty five.

Speaker 4 (02:16:14):
Get back very quickly to the casing. Take a look
at Exhibit one fourteen. It'll focus in a lot of
focus in a minute with regard to the casing that
you looked at. Is that the casing that you looked at?
It appears to be when you say it appears to be.

(02:16:34):
Why don't you go ahead and take a look at
the casing.

Speaker 5 (02:16:37):
Do you have that up there with you?

Speaker 4 (02:16:39):
I do. And take a look at the marking zone
it What item number was the casing out of the
scene as indicated by.

Speaker 6 (02:16:45):
Days of it?

Speaker 8 (02:16:49):
One lb?

Speaker 4 (02:16:50):
One lb? But it it was one right?

Speaker 8 (02:16:52):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (02:16:53):
And if you take a look at exhibit number one fourteen,
what number is by the casing?

Speaker 9 (02:16:59):
One?

Speaker 4 (02:17:01):
I don't have any other questions.

Speaker 2 (02:17:04):
Cross examination happening.

Speaker 8 (02:17:06):
That's rocket thepinion.

Speaker 3 (02:17:09):
Through all of your uh examinations that you did on
the casing and the bullet, you were never able to
match either one to a specific gun.

Speaker 8 (02:17:19):
Right, did not have a fire in this case?

Speaker 3 (02:17:21):
Now and in fact, this casing and uh, well this
k that this particular casing actually can match several different
types of guns.

Speaker 5 (02:17:30):
Is that right?

Speaker 8 (02:17:31):
That's correct.

Speaker 6 (02:17:34):
And you're familiar with crime scenes, aren't you.

Speaker 3 (02:17:37):
Yes, And in crime scenes, especially if there's a struggle
that is going on, you know that that casings.

Speaker 6 (02:17:44):
Aren't always left where they are ejected.

Speaker 8 (02:17:47):
That's correct.

Speaker 6 (02:17:48):
Sometimes they can be kicked around. Yes, alright, thank you,
that's all I got.

Speaker 2 (02:17:53):
Can you be direct well with regard to this point
quite cauniber casing?

Speaker 4 (02:17:57):
Is it a magical casing?

Speaker 8 (02:18:00):
Nod sustained.

Speaker 4 (02:18:03):
Is there anything unusual about this twenty five caliber casing?

Speaker 8 (02:18:07):
No?

Speaker 4 (02:18:08):
And so that if, for example, there's blood on the ground,
assuming that you were talking about a crime scene, you've
been to crime scenes, right, yes, and there is blood
on the ground. To go look, get to the exhibit
one fourteen. See that there. Yes, see there's a reddish

(02:18:31):
brown substance there right, yes. And you see that the
casing is there right number one? Right?

Speaker 8 (02:18:39):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (02:18:39):
And does the top of it have any blood on it?
Can you see that? No?

Speaker 1 (02:18:45):
Overalled?

Speaker 5 (02:18:47):
Cross it's MA continue this particular casing.

Speaker 4 (02:18:53):
You see the top of it?

Speaker 8 (02:18:55):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (02:18:55):
Is there any reddish.

Speaker 5 (02:18:57):
Substance consistent with blood on top of it?

Speaker 7 (02:18:59):
Nop.

Speaker 4 (02:19:00):
And this reddish substance is where underneath it or on it?

Speaker 8 (02:19:05):
Underneath it?

Speaker 5 (02:19:06):
I don't have any other questions, thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:19:09):
So any member of the jury have a question for
this witness, see no hands. You may step down. Ladies
and gentlemen. We are going to take the evening recess
at this time. Please be back in the designated area
and we will start at ten thirty tomorrow morning, so
please be here by ten twenty five. Please remember the ammunition.
Have a nice evening. You are excused. The jury has

(02:19:36):
left the courtroom.

Speaker 8 (02:19:36):
Mister Nurmi.

Speaker 12 (02:19:37):
Yes, the court has not made mentioned as it relates
to any witness whether they are in particular release from
their subpoena when they're done testifying. I just want to
go on record with our requests that doctor Horne not
be released from subpoena as mean we may seek.

Speaker 7 (02:19:54):
To recall him, all right?

Speaker 6 (02:19:59):
Should we do the same as which witnesses what we
called it?

Speaker 5 (02:20:02):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (02:20:03):
You got it?

Speaker 6 (02:20:03):
Oh I'm sorry, we already know, all.

Speaker 5 (02:20:05):
Right, Council.

Speaker 2 (02:20:07):
If you want a witness release from the subpoena, you
need to let me know at the end of their testimony.
Otherwise I will assume that you may want to recall them,
and I will not release them all