Day 4

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
She set up I ever need any assistance of anybody
out in California and is welcome to call her and.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
This individual Jody Audis that we've been talking about. Is
she in court today?

Speaker 1 (00:10):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (00:10):
Tell me where she is seated and what she's wearing.

Speaker 1 (00:13):
She's over there in a black long sleeve.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Sure. Is she at the end of the table. Yes,
you're honoring me. The record reflect the identification of the defendant. Yes.

Speaker 3 (00:23):
So after that, did you continue having contact.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
With her or not?

Speaker 4 (00:28):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (00:30):
I don't believe we spoke for maybe three or four
weeks after the convention. I think we did a kind
of a party for Utah before one of our big events,
and I think we were actually playing pool with a
friend of ours named Zion Lovinger, and Zion somehow Jody's
name came up and asked me if I knew who

(00:53):
she was or how we had known each other, and
eventually he maybe kind of played matchmaker a little bit
and got you know, we talked about it, and then
I ended up giving her a call. I think even
that night at that event.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
And how much time it lapsed between the time that
you met her in the time that you actually placed.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
This call, probably three or four weeks.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
And when you called her, did she what did she say?

Speaker 1 (01:21):
I asked her if she remember who I was? She
said yes, and it just was it seemed like a
pleasant conversation. It went on for maybe thirty minutes before
an hour maybe, And.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
During the time that you and she spoke, was there
an agreement or an indication that you were going to
call her back, she was going to call you back?

Speaker 3 (01:40):
What was sort of how was that conversation ended?

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Just you know, I don't I don't know if we
necessarily agree, but I think we probably talked the very
next day.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
And did this sort of continue on where you continued
to talk and that sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Yeah, from that point, I mean we probably talked at
least three, four, sometimes five times a week, either she
would call me or I call her, used around ten
or eleven at night when our days were kind of done.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
Did there come a time where the two of you
agreed or she agreed to come out and visit you?

Speaker 5 (02:15):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (02:16):
What was the name of the town that you were
living in back then?

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Salt Lake City is Salt Lake City near West Jordan.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Yeah, yeah, this is a suburb.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
And were you living in Salt Lake City or in
West Geordan, Jordan. And when you say West Jordan, who
described the living arrangements right back then?

Speaker 1 (02:37):
I actually lived in a kind of a side apartment
with my family and their house is in West Jordan.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Did that side apartment have its own entrance? And did
it have its own kitchen? Is that a no?

Speaker 6 (02:51):
No?

Speaker 1 (02:52):
No, I'm sorry, no I didn't.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
So there's this sort of agreement that she's going to
come out. Do you know when you guys reach this
agreement that she was going to come out?

Speaker 1 (03:01):
It would have been the end of May.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
And do you know how she was what her itinerary
was when she was going to come out there?

Speaker 1 (03:13):
I can't remember for sure. It seemed like she was
going to be on a road trip or she was
just going to come out and see me directly. I
don't really remember, but she was going to come out
and just spend one day because she would be I
have to get back to work. So she's going to
come out probably about a week from the time we
originally talked about her coming.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
Did she tell you what route she was going to
take to visit you?

Speaker 1 (03:36):
I think she had a friend that had a baby
that was born or something. She wanted to visit her friend.
If I understand it right, she lived in northern California,
so she was going to drive down to LA First Area,
LA Area and visit that friend, and then from there
she was going to come and see me.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
And are you familiar how to get from the LA
Area up to Salt Lake City, Utah.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
Are It's fifteen three with a boy.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
And when you spoke to her about this particular trip
and her itinerary, what day of the week was she
supposed to arrive to see you.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
I believe it was. I think it was Wednesday. That's
the time that we normally have our training, and I
think she was going to be there on Wednesday mornings.
When she had said we talked at the night before,
maybe around nine or ten at night.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Okay, so you talked the night before around nine or
ten at night, and the expectation was that she was
going to be there the next day, which was a Wednesday,
around what time I.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Knew it was about a twelve hour drive. A little
concerned about her driving overnight because it's nine pm. She
said she'd be fine. She'd obviously pull over just to
be safe. She needed to take a nap or something,
so twelve hour drive. I'd expected her maybe at nine
if she would drove straight through, but of course probably
she wouldn't drive straight through, So I think thought maybe
around twelve or one. I was kind of expecting her
to be there all right.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
So the next day, which was the Wednesday, around nine o'clock,
did she arrive up there? No? And you talked something
about training that day. What are we talking about when
you say it training?

Speaker 1 (05:15):
So she'd get together kind of learn more about the
membership and how, you know, how the services again since
her families and things like that, and so we'd come
together on a training on Wednesday night, and so I
think she was even going to attend that training with us.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
What time was the training on Wednesday night?

Speaker 1 (05:30):
Training was seven pm?

Speaker 2 (05:32):
And where would the train Where was the training schedule
to take place.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
In Sandy, Utah, which is about ten minutes south of
West Jordan.

Speaker 2 (05:41):
And did you attain did you attend that training that Wednesday?

Speaker 7 (05:45):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (05:46):
So it's it's ten o'clock noon. Did she arrive by noon?

Speaker 1 (05:52):
No?

Speaker 2 (05:53):
No?

Speaker 1 (05:54):
And at noon I was obviously concerned because she's driving
throughout the night, and I tried to call her, but
her voice her phone went straight to voicemail, so I
couldn't get through. Try to call again at noon, and
I wasn't too concerned at nine at noon or one
when I didn't get a hold of her. At that point,
I was a little concerned, but it still was just

(06:14):
going straight to voicemail, and just.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
Going straight to voicemail. Yeah, it was go ahead, And
how many tries did you give it? Let's say, you know,
after one o'clock in the afternoon, maybe.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
Two more times. I also contacted another friend that I
think she was going to visit while she was there,
Mark and Leslie Udy. Leslie seemed to know her a
little bit better than I did. I talked to her
for five minutes at the convention, and then I talked
to her a lot on the phone before she came
on it came over for about a month and a half.
We'd have, you know, a lot of conversations throughout the week.
But she Leslie Uty seemed to know her a little

(06:49):
bit better, and so I asked Leslie if she had
heard from her, or if possibly she knew her number
to her grandparents or whoever it was that she was
living with, maybe see if she was okay.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
Were you successful after this call to Leslie Uty in
receiving a return call.

Speaker 8 (07:07):
From the defendant?

Speaker 9 (07:08):
No?

Speaker 1 (07:09):
No, And so when we couldn't get ahold of her,
I had just hoped that maybe she could figure out
where our training was, and so I thought maybe she
I'd see her at the training.

Speaker 3 (07:17):
So you went to the training and you said that
started at seven.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
O'clock, correct, seven pm?

Speaker 2 (07:21):
And you hadn't heard from her at that point, right, No,
So the training lasted for how long?

Speaker 1 (07:27):
Two and a half hours?

Speaker 2 (07:28):
So that would place you what ninety nine thirty? Where
did you go after that?

Speaker 1 (07:34):
At that time, we had a few of our buddies.
Every week we'd go over to the cheesecake factory and
we'd just hang out. We grab a drink, sometimes grab
an appetizer or something. We'd just sit there and chat.
So that's where we go.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
And while you were at the cheesecake factory, which would
have been after nine thirty, right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:53):
Nine, yeah, we got there probably about ten pm.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
And while you were there at the cheesecake factory, what
town is that in that cheesecake factory that you wanted?

Speaker 1 (08:03):
Murray, which is maybe ten minutes east of West Jordan.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
And when you were there, did you receive a call
from the defendant?

Speaker 10 (08:11):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (08:11):
About what time was that?

Speaker 1 (08:13):
Maybe we had talked about it a little bit. I
knew that she knew some other people at the table,
like Mike Rotott was there. But you received the call
for around ten thirty pm, right?

Speaker 2 (08:27):
And what did she say to you?

Speaker 3 (08:28):
What she called?

Speaker 1 (08:30):
I mean, obviously, first I just said, you know, Jody,
and you know, she said hey, and she almost sound
apologetic from the get go, and I just said, hey,
are you okay? And then she said yes, I'm fine.
And I just asked her, you know where she's been,
you know?

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Anyhow, so you asked her she's been. What did she
tell you that she'd been.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
She said a few things happened. For one, I think
she said she's kind of airheaded like that, and she
took the wrong freeway and she drove the wrong direction
for many hours. And then at some point she got tired,
and so she fell asleep, and she couldn't believe how
long she slept by the time she woke up. And
I just said, okay, well good, I'm just glad you're okay.

(09:12):
I couldn't get through to your phone, and when I
asked when I said that, she told me that she
had lost her car charger. She hadn't forgot to bring it,
maybe pack it, and so her phone had been dead
all day.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
If she'd forgotten the charger and her phone had been
dead all day, how was it that she was then
able to call you from that same phone?

Speaker 1 (09:33):
I think she told men refrained.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Did she tell you something about that?

Speaker 1 (09:38):
She told me that she had I think bought it
from a gas station or something she found.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
So she told you she bought another charger, right? And
how long did this conversation last?

Speaker 1 (09:52):
I could be wrong, but maybe thirty minutes to an hour,
and it could be longer. I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
During that time that you were talking to her, was
there her an indication as to when she was going
to Did you and she talk about when she was
going to arrive in the Salt Lake City area?

Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah, it seemed like she was still like along ways away.
She wasn't sure exactly where she was at, so she
didn't we didn't know exactly how long it was going
to take her to get there, so she had to
kind of get her bearings.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
She told you she didn't know where she was right
right then? And what else did she say.

Speaker 1 (10:26):
I remember at some point, I don't know if it
was this conversation or if I had we disconnected for
a couple hours, and then she called back. I really
can't remember. But at some point I went into the
living room where my father was, and I asked him
what freeway should she take at this point where she
was at, And so he also knew that she was coming.
And I don't even remember where she said she was,

(10:49):
but it seemed like a pretty simple answer. And then
it seemed like she could have been maybe seven or
eight hours away at that point. It still took her
another twelve hours to actually get to my house.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
So she called that evening, and then you have this
call around up to eleven o'clock maybe yeah, And after
that she may have called one other time, right, is
that what you're telling me?

Speaker 11 (11:10):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (11:11):
Maybe, I yeah, it's hard to remember now.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
And then after that, did you receive another call late
in the evening or not? Was there any other contact
with her?

Speaker 12 (11:21):
No?

Speaker 1 (11:22):
Not until the next morning.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Did she know how to get to your house?

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Had you give a think, Yeah, she must have had
my address or something. She Yeah, she knew how to
get to my house. She had never been there before,
but she knew how to get there.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
And what time did she get there to your house?

Speaker 1 (11:38):
Get not sure, but maybe a round ten or eleven
the next day, I'm not positive on that. And that
would have been the Wednesday, right, that would have been Thursday.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
Now that was.

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Thursday then, and she was supposed to get there Wednesday.

Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah, so that's twenty four hours after I was originally
expecting her.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
And did you have any plans for lunch?

Speaker 2 (11:59):
During that?

Speaker 1 (12:00):
I had an appointment And so I'm not really clear
of how this happened, but I know that she followed
me to the appointment, so we.

Speaker 12 (12:08):
Might have be stapp there.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Where was this appointment? And what was that?

Speaker 1 (12:11):
A place called Jim's Restaurant. It was less than a
mile from my house.

Speaker 3 (12:14):
And what was the purpose of the appointment?

Speaker 1 (12:17):
I had an associate on my team who had another
gentleman who felt like he had some connections some people
who could use our help from our company, and so
we arranged the time for me to go and meet
with him and do a presentation.

Speaker 3 (12:29):
What time was the meeting scheduled for?

Speaker 1 (12:31):
Could have been eleven or twelve? Not positive?

Speaker 2 (12:34):
So she arrives before that meeting, right, Yes, after she
arrives there, does she stay a long time there at
your house in West Jordan or not?

Speaker 1 (12:45):
I don't remember anything before that event, and that meeting
might have been the first time we actually I think
she came straight to that sit down with me because
of the time she was showing up. And then she
actually was with me during that sit down.

Speaker 3 (12:56):
All right, So she was there during the meeting.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yes, yes, she actually followed me in her car.

Speaker 2 (13:00):
There as you How far away was the meeting in
terms of travel from your house to the restaurant?

Speaker 1 (13:07):
How far was it a mile?

Speaker 2 (13:09):
And on the way from your house to the restaurant,
you say you're driving.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
Your own car? Is that what you said?

Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (13:16):
Is she driving her own car?

Speaker 10 (13:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (13:18):
I think so, Yeah, yeah, yes she was for sure.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
So she's driving her car. And as you're driving to
this place, does something happen?

Speaker 1 (13:27):
Oh, we get pulled over by a police officer.

Speaker 3 (13:29):
When you say we did you get pulled over to.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
No, I was in front of her, so the police
officer her car was behind mine, police officers behind hers?

Speaker 2 (13:39):
And who did he pull over? Both of you?

Speaker 13 (13:41):
Her or you?

Speaker 10 (13:41):
Job?

Speaker 3 (13:42):
And what did you do when the police officer pulled.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Her over, just sat there, looked in my rear view
mirror and them talking to each other.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
And how far from your house or how much had
you traveled before she was pulled over?

Speaker 1 (13:56):
Seven hundred yards and you pretty much got pulled over
right away.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
And after you're watching me in the rear view mirror,
what do you see.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
He's talking to her. And eventually it didn't look like
he gave her a ticket or anything.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
Why did he say that?

Speaker 1 (14:12):
Because I didn't see him hand her, and maybe he
gave her a warning. I'm not sure. I was trying
to figure out if she got a ticket or not,
but I didn't really find out the story. I don't
believe until we went to the restaurant. I might have
got out and talked to her there, I don't think so.
I think we went over to the restaurant before I
got the story.

Speaker 10 (14:26):
What happened?

Speaker 3 (14:27):
Okay, so you went to the restaurant and you had
the story.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
What was the story that.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
She told you? She said it was a funny story.
You know, he pulled her over because her back license
plate was upside down. And then I asked her how
that would have happened. And I think I think she had.
What she told me, she was coming out of a
Maverick or a restaurant or something like that, and where

(14:53):
sometime on her trip to get to my house, all right,
And when she came out, there was these kids that
were goofing around at the front of her car with
her front license plate, and when they saw her, they
were laughing. They dropped the license plate and took off,
and she told me she thought that was the only
thing they did, so she just took that license plate
and put it in her back seat or maybe put
it back on him to hike. I don't remember, but

(15:14):
she thought that that's all they did. But what she
told me is apparently they also switched my back license
plate and turned it upside down, and so that's why
the police officer had pulled her over. And so we
laughed about it, and that was it.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Do you know whether or not you've helped her reaffix
the license plate right side up?

Speaker 1 (15:33):
I honestly don't know. I think I might have fixed
it for her, but I can't. I cannot remember.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
So then you go to this meeting, the meeting is completed,
and she's there, right, it's what.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
You told us, Yeah, and she's had to sit down
with me, probably around eleven.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Or twelve after that, where did the two of you go?

Speaker 1 (15:50):
We went back to my house, okay, And.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
When you go back to your house, what did the
two of you do?

Speaker 2 (15:57):
We talked for a while.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
I think we agreed that we were going to watch
a movie or something like that, and that's what we did.
We turned on a movie.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
And what happened during the movie?

Speaker 1 (16:06):
At some point, I mean we were talking and we kissed.

Speaker 2 (16:10):
And did this kissing continue or did you just stop
at one kiss?

Speaker 1 (16:15):
Eventually we kissed, probably many times. Every time we started kissing,
it got a little more escalated.

Speaker 2 (16:22):
And with regard to the physical contact beyond kissing, was
there any of that?

Speaker 1 (16:29):
Clothes never came off? You know, at some point she
was kissing my neck, I was kissing hers, but clothes
never came off.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
How about your hands?

Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah, my hands were. I never touched her breast or
anything like that. At one point I had my hands
on her thighs. She was, you know, things were. She
was definitely seemed to be into the moment, and you know,
eventually we stopped.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
Before you stopped, did your hands ever go near her
vaginal area? Yes, when you say that you stopped. At
any point, did she say to you we need to
stop or how was it that it came.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
I don't think really in either one of us had
said please stop. We both just stopped. I mean, part
of our conversations with each other were about her religious
views and my religious views, and I didn't want her
to regret her trip, you know there. I didn't want
that to happen. So you know, at some point we stopped.

(17:29):
But it wasn't necessarily her stopping me or me stopping her.
We just I didn't want to go any further for
her to regret the trip.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
During this interlude that you are having, what was her demeanor?
Was she upset? Was she happy? What was her to me?

Speaker 1 (17:45):
I mean, it just seemed like the person i'd be
talking on the phone, just meeting her in person. I
never there was never a moment where it felt awkward
or anything like that.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
At any time while this is going on. Did you
grab your hands and say, don't put it here, don't
put it there, anything like that? Is that A no?

Speaker 1 (18:02):
No?

Speaker 2 (18:03):
No? And so later on what did the two of
you do.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
Later on we had I don't know if anything else
happened before this, but we had to get to the
business briefing.

Speaker 3 (18:15):
And where was the brief business briefing?

Speaker 1 (18:17):
Sandy again, same location as the training the night before.

Speaker 3 (18:20):
And what time was the business briefing?

Speaker 1 (18:25):
The business briefing was at seven pm?

Speaker 2 (18:28):
And so you get back probably a round one. So
it's one to seven that you and she are together, correct?

Speaker 6 (18:36):
Is that?

Speaker 4 (18:36):
Yes?

Speaker 11 (18:38):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (18:38):
One to seven were together?

Speaker 6 (18:39):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (18:40):
And did you finish watching the movie that?

Speaker 1 (18:42):
I don't know. I don't know if we did.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
So what happens with regard to the business briefing?

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Do you go by yourself or do you go with No?

Speaker 1 (18:49):
We go together? I think she drove with me. I
think I was just going to take her back to
her car. She might have followed me there. I don't
remember that. But we showed up definitely together at the
same time, and she obviously people were surprised to see
her there. Many people knew A few people knew who
she was, and obviously knew she was from California and

(19:09):
asked her, you know, said hi, and what she's doing
in town.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
With regard to her hair colored when you met her,
what was her hair color?

Speaker 3 (19:18):
Blund when she came over to West Jordan.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
What was her hair color?

Speaker 1 (19:23):
Dark dark burnette, bnette.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
And during the time that you and she are alone
in the afternoon, did you notice her hands?

Speaker 1 (19:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (19:33):
And did you notice whether or not she had any
injuries or cut to one of her hands?

Speaker 1 (19:38):
She had two small advantages, it seems like on one
of her fingers or a couple of her fingers.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
Did you and she talk about that?

Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah? Yeah, either either then or yeah, we did at
some point.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
Yes, And what did she tell you about those cuts?

Speaker 1 (19:54):
She worked at Margaritaville, and I guess she broke a
glass and she cut her.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
Well, I'm not asking you to guess. I'm asking you
to tell me what she said. We know that you
weren't there and you don't know. I'm just telling you.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
What she told me. She worked at Margaritaville and she'd
cut her finger.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
And how did she cut her finger at Margaritaville.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
I think she told me she broke a glass and
cut her finger.

Speaker 3 (20:18):
So you go to this training and how long does
this training last?

Speaker 1 (20:22):
About an hour?

Speaker 2 (20:24):
And then what happens after that?

Speaker 1 (20:26):
We get a whole bunch of buddies again and we
go out to Chili's and you know, that's that's what.
We went over there and talked for probably two and
a half two hours, two hours and a half hours,
something like that.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
At anytime during this evening, was she what was her
demeanor like? Was she crying at any time?

Speaker 3 (20:42):
Was she upset at any time?

Speaker 2 (20:44):
What was her demeanor like?

Speaker 1 (20:46):
I mean the only time, I mean, she was fine.
She was laughing about the simple little things, just like
any other person she was. I never once felt there
was anything wrong about the day. I felt like socially,
the first time I ever saw her in a crowd,
I thought she was much She was much more comfortable

(21:08):
one on one. That was the first time I know
she was a little awkward in social areas, and it
seemed like she didn't talk very much to some other people.
And some of the people would talk about that a
little bit, but it just wasn't the Jody I knew,
because one on one she was very talkative and insightful
and very different.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
So it seemed like a social situation she was a
bit more inhibited and.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
Shy, yeah, a little shy, yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
And with you, that's not how she was when you
were alone with her. Right, did she leave then to
go back or did you guys make it back to
your place.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
We made it back to my place about what time
was that late to eleven maybe?

Speaker 2 (21:49):
And when you got back, what did the two of
you do?

Speaker 1 (21:51):
I think we turned on a movie again. Maybe it
was the same one we were watching, maybe it was
a different one. But we were tired. We fell. She
had to get back to Margueriteville. That was why she
couldn't come forward with us the next day. She almost
was going to stay with us, and everybody was, you know,
you know, telling her to, but she seemed to think
about it. But it got to a point where she

(22:12):
felt like, no, she couldn't. She's got to get back
to work. And so we left. But sometime as we left,
she said, she don't have to leave right now, and
so I said, well, we can go back to my
place again if you don't want to leave right away.
And so I went back to my place and we
took a nap, all right.

Speaker 3 (22:27):
And when you awoke, describe for me what happened.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
I don't know how long we were sleeping. The second
we woke up, we were we were kissing.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
And what else happened?

Speaker 1 (22:40):
She got on top of me pretty aggressively, and we
were kissing when she.

Speaker 3 (22:46):
Got on top of you pretty aggressively.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
Where was her genital area compared to yours?

Speaker 1 (22:51):
I mean she was right on top of.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
Me and you guys were kissing, correct, is that yes?

Speaker 4 (22:56):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (22:57):
And how long did this encounter Maybe a few minutes?

Speaker 2 (23:02):
And during that time was there a decision to go
forward or a decision to stop?

Speaker 12 (23:07):
We just stopped and.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
You partly made that decision, correct?

Speaker 3 (23:15):
Is that yes?

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yes? At any time did she say stop, don't go forward,
don't do anything else, anything.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
Like that, not that one of us did. We just
it was kind of the same feeling I had. I had, Yeah, I.

Speaker 14 (23:26):
Just we just stopped.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Anything about her demeanor that indicated to you that she
was upset about anything at that point, not at all.
In terms of you were around her for that day,
did you form an opinion based on your contact with her,
being around her as to her strength and how fit
she was?

Speaker 1 (23:48):
She's very fit, Yeah, you said what, she is very fit.

Speaker 8 (23:54):
She was in good shape.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
And in terms of her strength, did you form an
opinion based.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
On that night?

Speaker 1 (24:00):
We were instant messaging back and forth, we went up.
At some point I complimented her on being very feisty,
and that's kind of referring to she's a lot starring
and she looks.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
You've during this encounter when after you wake up, did
she ever and the phrase may have been adjust you
in any way while this encounter is going on.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Well, that's what I mean. When we woke up, we
were kissing, and then she eventually kind of grabbed me
and adjusted me a little bit, and that's when she
got on top of me and we were kissing.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
And did dad, were you able to feel her strength
at that point?

Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (24:43):
And did you form an opinion as again throughout the
day and as part of that as to her strength, Yeah,
she's strong at any point. Did you ever kiss her stomach?

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (24:58):
And were you able to see her stuff make in
terms of whether.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
Or not she was in shape?

Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, close to a six pack?

Speaker 3 (25:04):
Yeah, you said it was close to a six pack.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
That's what she was even talking about in our MSN
or our instant messaging through Google. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
And after you stopped, what happened? Did you stay or
did she go?

Speaker 11 (25:19):
Or yeah?

Speaker 1 (25:21):
I mean at that point I kept on reminder she
had to get to work. That's what she was telling
people at the dinner, and that was kind of the
whole reason she had to go, and she said, you
wanted to stay just a little while longer, and we
stayed a little maybe a few more minutes as all,
and then just kind of walked her out through her
car and said goodbye.

Speaker 12 (25:40):
What time was that?

Speaker 1 (25:42):
Any idea twelve one am? Possibly it was later. Ye
could even be late in that, I don't remember.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
One of the things that you indicated to me was
that there was this sort of instant messaging part of
the court component of your relationship. Y.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yeah, Yeah, we would talk and every once in a
while if I noticed she was online or if she
noticed I was online. We both had a Google account,
I believe, and so you can kind of tell when
they're on, and so you can just kind of write
a little message, and you know, a few of our
conversations work through that.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
Describe for me how that's different if you know, from
emailing in other words, I mean, it.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Pops right up on the screen if you've got your
Gmail open, and so if somebody says, you know, hi,
it pops right up and you can reply, and then
you can almost carry on a conversation while you're doing
other things. But I mean it's kind of like a
text message back and forth. It's immediate, and you're both
responding right away, and sometimes you're even responding to things
that are two or three questions away, you know, so

(26:41):
it can kind of be kind of confusing.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
Let me show you if you didn't number two eighty
four wouldn't take a look? Are you familiar to who
that is sent?

Speaker 4 (26:56):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (26:56):
This is from Jody Arius on May thirtieth.

Speaker 3 (27:00):
And who's it sent to me?

Speaker 2 (27:04):
And it has without reading it, it has something.

Speaker 1 (27:07):
On the right something ritt Yeah, what she wrote me?

Speaker 11 (27:09):
Huh?

Speaker 12 (27:10):
I could have that back.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
For the admission of it.

Speaker 15 (27:14):
Tibit two direction two eighty four submitted.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
To eighty four. And if you look at your computer there,
I think it'll.

Speaker 7 (27:24):
Pop up for you.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
Yes, let's see it.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
And this is from her to you? And what does
she say?

Speaker 2 (27:35):
In this message dated May thirtieth of two thousand and
eight at midnight well twelve twenty one am.

Speaker 1 (27:44):
It says, hey, they're handsome. This is a test.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
The fact that it says this is a test. Does
do you know whether or not this is the first
contact that you had via this messaging system?

Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yeah, it could have been I don't. I don't remember
being too familiar with using it too much before this.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Yeah, and you didn't send this though, right, No, take
a look at the exhibit. Well, let me shure you
a two eighty seven take. Yeah, is it the same
sort of message and it's between you and her?

Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah? This is this one's on six twenty three.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
All right.

Speaker 12 (28:29):
I remember the edition.

Speaker 5 (28:30):
Of exit to eighty seven I'm a journeral and movie.

Speaker 15 (28:35):
Approach You may to eighty seven? Is it?

Speaker 3 (28:39):
It indicates it's from you to Jordy Area's right.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
In reading this it it appears that it says at
the top, but it's always great to hear from you
when that says me, and then directly under an that
it says Ryan's PPL Are you me?

Speaker 3 (29:03):
Or Ryan's PPL?

Speaker 1 (29:04):
I'm Ryan's PPL.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
And in terms of reading it, it does say that
it's always great to hear from you.

Speaker 3 (29:15):
You do the same referring to something.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
Right, Yeah, But I mean the conversation looks like it
starts at the bottom like, so it goes the other way.
So that was the last thing that was said.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
So it would actually read if we're going to read
this conversation her saying to you, hey, Hatty Biscotti, what's new? Right?

Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah, that's about probably what I'm in The first is.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
Hot Hotty a pet name she gave you or is
that just something that's in this text message or message?

Speaker 1 (29:46):
I didn't as you might have said it a few times.
I don't remember calling me that on a regular basis.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
And then it says Ryan's PPL says, hey, you, what's
probably what's up?

Speaker 1 (29:57):
I just didn't type it. You're not really spell checking
yourself as you're going through this.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
Then me, which would be her, says actually, I'm just
running off to work, and.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
You responded with what, okay, have a great day.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
And then what did she respond?

Speaker 1 (30:11):
She said, you do the same, but it's always great
to hear from you.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
There were other such conversations between the two of you, right, yeah.
Was there a conversation that took place in which she
discussed the breakup with Travis Alexander.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
Not too often, but we talked so much that yeah,
I mean a few times we talked about it.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
And take a look at the exhibit two eighty six
and see if you recognize it and whether or not
that's a conversation.

Speaker 12 (30:46):
Where she talks about the breakup.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah, this is a a few days after she was
we were together in West Jordan and we did talk about Yeah,
we we did talk about the break up here a
little bit about some of the things that happened.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
And yeah, I move for the admission of exhibit.

Speaker 11 (31:21):
You're talking to object again, same objection.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
Thanks, pray.

Speaker 16 (31:26):
Sir.

Speaker 3 (31:27):
Let's go ahead and take a look at Barnes of
Exhibit two A.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
This is page two of nine. We see the me
is who that's Jody and the Ryans PPL is who
it's me?

Speaker 10 (31:50):
Me?

Speaker 3 (31:51):
Does indicate something there?

Speaker 2 (31:52):
Why don't you read to us what that sentence or
that whole section says.

Speaker 1 (31:58):
You want me to read it or just say what
I know, just.

Speaker 3 (32:00):
Whatever it says.

Speaker 1 (32:01):
Starting with anyway, anyway back to Travis real quick, and
this is Jody. Anyways, back to Travis real quick. He's
a great person and I wouldn't want to to edify
him as anything else. We all have our character flaws.
We've seen each other at our absolute worst and our best.
We are just fundamentally different.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
This is page four of nine. If you start reading
with me from the bottom and read out for me
familiar pointing me, is Jody Arius correct?

Speaker 1 (32:39):
You want me to start on well.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Where it says yes, well, there is.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
A little more laugh out loud lol. The whole time
we were seeing each other after we broke up, he
had another girlfriend. I had no idea. He didn't tell
me about her here but her probably until after they
broke up. Old, let me there you go, okay, but

(33:06):
I felt so bad this time I was the other girl.
I wanted to tell her, but that would have caused
a lot of unnecessary drama and pain. Anyway, since she
asked what time it was, I decided to text her
back quote time to cuddle with Jody good night. Then
I deleted the message, went to sleep and never mentioned

(33:27):
it to him.

Speaker 3 (33:28):
Let's continue on. What did you say?

Speaker 1 (33:35):
I said, oh, man, that that is intense.

Speaker 3 (33:39):
And she responded.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
But it got to the point where I could I
couldn't keep it in anymore. I confronted him. We broke up,
and I kind of wish that that was the end
of the story, but it is a very but he
is a He is very persuasive, and we continued to
see each other even though we were no longer boy
friend girlfriend.

Speaker 3 (34:02):
So she talks about this text message and what she did.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
With it, right, yeah, as part of her coming out there,
did she did you? And she continue on talking about
what it was that you might do when she came
out there to see you.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
Before she came the first time, right yeah, Yeah, we
talked about maybe watching a movie, going on a hike.
I mean, we just mentioned some things that she can
do while she was out here in Salt Lake.

Speaker 2 (34:33):
Take a look at two eighty five. Did this sort
of summarize your conversations regarding what the two of you
might do?

Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yes, this is yeah, before she came, I.

Speaker 3 (34:51):
Moved for the admission of exhibit to eighty five.

Speaker 15 (34:55):
He is admitted on the marketing at this thing.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
Oh yeah, it's a couple more lies from I think,
says number two eighty six. And this is page three
of nine. Read the part that says me.

Speaker 1 (35:19):
Then, while we were in Huntington Beach, he fell asleep
and a text message came through from a girl that said, sorry,
I didn't get back to your last text. What time
is it there? I tried, Oh, okay, then up, So
of course I read the last text he sent her,
and it said I really miss you. Gosh, I'm making

(35:40):
myself look so bad this is still here. I had
a really strong gut feeling. I'm not saying I'm psychic,
but I've been cheated on twice before, and it's a
very distinct feeling, one that I cannot ignore. So I
asked him gently about it, and he got really angry
and it led to an argument. He said I was
crazy to think that. So I left it alone. But

(36:02):
the feeling persisted, and one day, while he was taking
a nap, I took his phone and read his text messages.
Bad I know, and exhibit number forty five.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
For example, you talk out the bottom about getting sushi
and that sort of thing, but basically it just talks
about what your plans are when she comes out.

Speaker 1 (36:25):
Correct, Yeah, she had said that about getting sushi or something.

Speaker 3 (36:29):
Did you and she also text message each other back
and forth?

Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (36:34):
I don't have any other questions.

Speaker 12 (36:35):
To think.

Speaker 15 (36:37):
Chris's femination moment honor.

Speaker 5 (36:44):
Or of this verse, Hayden, let me start out today.
I want to talk to you a little bit. I
think what you told us was that you met miss
Arius in Oklahoma City. That's right, okay, and that was
at a I think you call him convention for Pepe
diego right, Yes, okay, And you mentioned having a conversation

(37:09):
with her after a meeting or a ceremony, if I
understood you correctly.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah, Yeah, it was like a specific team breakout session.
So it's a little bit smaller than the entire conventions.
It's a closer knit team.

Speaker 15 (37:22):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (37:23):
And you began to talk to her after that. Do
you remember how long that conversation was.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
It couldn't have been more than a few minutes. It
was quick, quick. Yeah, I didn't I spend a whole
lot of time. We were going to and from.

Speaker 5 (37:35):
And what were your initial opressions of Jody at that time?

Speaker 1 (37:39):
She was nice, beautiful, That's.

Speaker 5 (37:42):
What I remember it matter Okay, at this point in time,
in this convention in Oklahoma City, and it was April
two thousand and eight, that was your recollection or thereabouts.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yes, okay.

Speaker 5 (37:57):
Did you know a man by the name of Travis Alexander.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yes, I knew who he was, I didn't know him personally.

Speaker 5 (38:05):
Okay, So could you kind of describe that for us
what you mean by that?

Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah, I maybe three months in the business. I was struggling,
not doing so well. I was even thinking about quitting,
and then at some point, Travis Alexander was flown into
town as a guest speaker for Salt Lake City Market
and I attended that a training and I was inspired
by him. It kind of changed by my business around
and that was my only encounter with him personally, and

(38:34):
so I just I kept going and did much better
after that.

Speaker 5 (38:38):
Okay. Now, you also mentioned that sometime subsequent to this
initial meeting with Miss Areas. By the way, was mister
Alexander there when the two of you were speaking that
during that initial session.

Speaker 1 (38:53):
I don't know. I don't remember him, so probably not.
Okay being there.

Speaker 5 (38:58):
All right, and as someone who was important to you
that you probably would have remembered.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
That, I probably would have recognized. Yeah, probably, I mean,
I know, I know he was at the event, but
not that specific event when me and her were talking
in exchange numbers.

Speaker 5 (39:10):
Gotcha, and you mentioned something. I believe it was a
it was a smaller team get together where a gentleman
by the name of Zion Lovinger. Did I get that correct?

Speaker 2 (39:22):
Was there?

Speaker 1 (39:23):
Excuse me?

Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (39:25):
That was probably about a month after convention. We're playing
pool downstairs.

Speaker 5 (39:29):
Okay, so this was this was after the convention was over.
It was just the two of you then, is that?

Speaker 1 (39:34):
I mean, there was a bunch of people and I
can't remember whose house we were at, maybe Dave Haul's
mom's house or something like that. Okay, but it was
kind of a dinner get together with just the business
people in Salt Lake and the Utah area. Okay, And yeah,
eventually Jody's name came up.

Speaker 5 (39:51):
And do you remember the context of her name coming
up with this meeting? That sounds kind.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
Of what's so long? I don't really remember if I
brought it up or if he did, I'm not sure.

Speaker 5 (40:00):
Okay. In between this initial meeting and the time her
name was brought up in this this meeting, the pool
or what have you, was, did you have conversations with
miss Arius?

Speaker 1 (40:17):
I don't think so. I think it was about a
three or four week break before we really started talking
after that convention.

Speaker 5 (40:24):
Okay, tell me what you can recall about that conversation
with Zion about Jody.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
She's cool, you should give her a call something like that.

Speaker 15 (40:38):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (40:39):
You mentioned that he was trying to play matchmaker with
between the two of you, I think was your words.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
Right, Yeah, it could be an assumption, but yeah.

Speaker 5 (40:49):
Yeah, Okay, Well, what did you mean by that?

Speaker 1 (40:52):
I mean he mentioned that I should call her, and
I told her that I originally had her number, and
I think I even asked him for it because I
didn't have it anymore.

Speaker 5 (41:03):
Okay, And did you did he express the reasons why
you should call her?

Speaker 1 (41:13):
Not really overruled you me answer yes or no?

Speaker 5 (41:16):
No, okay, But something he said must have motivated you
to call her?

Speaker 6 (41:21):
Is that?

Speaker 1 (41:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (41:22):
Accurate? Okay? And just so we're clear, you were single
at this time, back in April two thousand and eight
or maybe May when you had this conversation with Zion.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yeah, okay, that point, Yeah.

Speaker 5 (41:35):
I'm sorry, didn't hear the last?

Speaker 4 (41:36):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (41:37):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (41:39):
And so did you take Zion up on his offer?
And did you call miss Arius?

Speaker 1 (41:45):
I think, if I remember right, I actually called her
right there at that that event, Okay, because I believe
the first time I talked to Jody, I was at
somebody else's house. It seems like I even found it. Yeah,
there was a room that had a sitting room, and
I think everybody was kind of off this way, and
I started talking to and I actually went and sat
in the in that room where there was nobody at
and we started talking, and we talked for quite a while.

(42:05):
Seemed to hit it off pretty quickly.

Speaker 5 (42:06):
Okay, do you remember how long quite a while was?

Speaker 1 (42:10):
It could be thirty minutes. You could tell me it
was three hours. I wouldn't remember this.

Speaker 5 (42:13):
Point fair enough. But you remember being a pleasant conversation, yes, okay?
Was your think you know how to put this? Was
your interest romantic if you.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
Will, I mean sure, I was interested in getting to
know her better and possibly dating her.

Speaker 5 (42:38):
Yeah, okay, So what do you remember about that conversation?
I mean, just other than it was pleasant.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
We talked about the same kind of books that we'd
like to read. I mean, Atla shrug, thinking girl rich,
how to win friends and influence people, And she kind
of had just had a lot of the same interest.
She was very good conversationalist on the phone. We just
had a lot in common when I initially met her.
I mean, she's a businesswoman at at a national convention, entrepreneur,

(43:07):
so I thought that was an attractive trade. Just yeah,
just all those kinds of things that sounded like somebody
I wanted to get to know.

Speaker 5 (43:14):
Okay, and everything in that vera conversation. Nothing dissuaded you
from your initial feelings, right, No, Okay. You also mentioned,
and I think this might be a good point to
talk about, you mentioned the fact that in crowd she
was a bit of a shy girl, but me, in private,
it was different, very different. And I just wanted it

(43:37):
because it sounds like after the convention when you first
met her, you didn't see her in person again until
June of two thousand and eight. Is that correct right now?

Speaker 1 (43:46):
That's the first time we ever met.

Speaker 5 (43:47):
Was when she came on that So outside of that,
what I was curious about, what I was asking about,
and if you could explain it for us, is how
did you draw that comparison and how did you make
the comparison that she's a little bit different engaging in
conversation and shy in groups. Could you kind of sure?

Speaker 1 (44:09):
I mean just when I talked to her was such
a brief moment there in Oklahoma when I got her number,
and then when we talked on the phone, it was
just one on one me and her, and she was
very easy to talk to. There was ever any awkwardness there,
and I felt like I got to know her pretty well.
She was funny, she just had a lot to say
and a lot of insight on things. She asked a
lot of questions, and you know, it just never seemed

(44:31):
like there was every moment of awkwardness. Now, when we
got together at the briefing, I started noticing, you know,
that she was a little shyer, you know, when she
was in a crowd, and you know, that was just
something I noticed. I just noticed. She didn't. Yeah, she
just a little shyer when she was in front of people.

Speaker 5 (44:48):
Okay, And this briefing that you just mentioned, that was
in June of two thousand and eight, that's when she
came to Utah, right.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
Right, Okay, that was a Thursday.

Speaker 5 (44:57):
Okay when she made excuse me, when you made contact
with her in the March February or excuse me, I
guess I would have been I'm losing track of my
mind's April or.

Speaker 1 (45:13):
Or probably May or end of April could have.

Speaker 5 (45:15):
Been okay, when you had that contact. Did you have
any awareness of her dating mister Alexander having a relationship.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
No.

Speaker 1 (45:26):
In fact, at some point we had a conversation where
she told me that they talked a couple times a week,
and that actually shocked me because I'd talked her for
quite a bit of time, and I thought that relationship
was long in the past. So when she had mentioned
that to me, I was kind of surprised if they were.
But then it made more sense as she explained that
that was her executive director, that was the one that
kind of you know. And she also explained that at

(45:49):
times she would she would help him put in applications
and stuff with the company, and she was working with
him him as him being her mentor in the business
as well.

Speaker 5 (45:59):
Okay, so you said she it had advised you that
she helped him put in membership applications.

Speaker 1 (46:06):
Yeah, I mean she said a couple times a week
they would talk business matters, but the relationship seemed to
be far behind them.

Speaker 5 (46:13):
Okay. Did she ever mention that she gave mister Alexander
memberships so he could keep miss.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
Members she did help him qualify for executive director if
heels closed. I don't know. She just mentioned she helped
him in what way? But maybe yeah?

Speaker 5 (46:31):
Okay, and you mentioned I think it might be a
good time to kind of describe you said, to help
him maintain executive director, right, I think that's the word
you used, right, What is that? What does that mean?

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Could just it's a bonus level in our company, and
it just you get paid a lot more if you
qualify for it. And so it requires a certain number
of applications that your team would process. At that time,
I believe it was seventy five memberships, and so if
you only had seven three by the end of the month,
you would still get paid director commissions, but not the
executive director bonus. And so it's not a position you'd

(47:06):
want to miss if you're close.

Speaker 5 (47:08):
Okay. So it is a financial there's financial reward for
being a quote unquote executive.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
Is a big pay jumping?

Speaker 5 (47:17):
Okay, yeah, you say big pay jump? Is there any
way you can I understand it's the commission makes business.
From what I understand, anyway, I should say, is that correct?

Speaker 1 (47:26):
I mean, for example, my first month as a director,
I made six thousand. My first month as an executive director,
I had my first ten thousand dollars month. Okay, So
it's a four thousand dollars increase for me.

Speaker 5 (47:35):
Okay? And would that also apart from the financial rewards,
which obviously you've just described, are significant, are there for example?
Status is there? Is there? Does this status allow you
into certain places or certain meetings, or could you kind

(47:57):
of define that.

Speaker 1 (47:57):
For like an executive director banquet, for example, what might
be the only thing I could think you're referring to
or that you would get. Basically, you just got paid more,
you know, but there would be certain incentives the company
put out that would be just for the executives, and
so we'd have a thousand or a couple of thousand
of us with us on our date or whatever that
would go to an executive director bank with Okay, So

(48:20):
I mean there is incentives in that way. Yeah, and
easier to get on the Cancun trips and that kind
of stuff, the requirements that are a little less for executives.

Speaker 6 (48:27):
I see.

Speaker 5 (48:28):
Okay. Could you and I know that the State showed
you some of the instant message conversations you had with
miss Arias between well not all of them, but some
of which were between April May of two thousand and

(48:49):
eight and June of two thousand and eight, and that
was one that was one medium you use to communicate, right, yes, sure, okay.
And you said you made phone calls as well, Yeah,
you say that night phone calls.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
My business was really picking up at the time. So
I think she was busy during the day, and she
knew I was busy during the day. So if I
call her, she called me as usually around eleven pm
at night, when we were both kind of settling down.

Speaker 5 (49:17):
Okay, between this an initial call you made at Zion's
prompting and you were meeting on June fourth or the
fifth of two thousand and eight, did you talk on
a daily basis? On your daily basis, I'm so. I
think I talked four.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
Or five times a week, could be more. Even text
messages throughout the day sometimes.

Speaker 5 (49:46):
Four or five times a week, and your text.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
Message during the day sometimes, you know, and these.

Speaker 5 (49:50):
Instant message conversations that we just saw a few moments ago,
When did those typically take place? And how often?

Speaker 1 (50:01):
I don't think too often, because you usually would just
call each other, we'd be texting if we were both
by a computer. When you're on Gmail, you can kind
of see your contacts and who's actually online. And I
think at one point she wrote, HI, this is a test,
and then I was online and I responded back to her,
and that's when we started kind of just talking that

(50:23):
way all right.

Speaker 5 (50:27):
In these tell us about these conversations and What were
the subjects you talked every day?

Speaker 1 (50:36):
I'm getting to know each other, you know her likes
and dislikes. She'd asked me that. She'd asked me a
lot of questions like, what are your hobbies? What do
you like to do? What do you not like to do? Uh?
You wote? Books? Have you read? She'd asked me questions
about Not too often, but a few times. We talked

(50:57):
about my dating history. You know what that was, like,
how that happened? Do I have trust issues? Does she
have trust issues? We would talk about just whatever would
come up.

Speaker 5 (51:08):
Okay, you didn't have any conversations that could be characterized
as phone sex?

Speaker 1 (51:15):
Yeah, we probably did, okay?

Speaker 5 (51:19):
And when did those take place?

Speaker 1 (51:24):
Sometime after she was there?

Speaker 6 (51:26):
After that?

Speaker 5 (51:27):
Okay? But no, what I was specifically saying is between
the time you met and excuse me, the time you
met in April and the time you met in June,
there was none of that. Is that correct?

Speaker 1 (51:38):
No?

Speaker 5 (51:39):
Okay? And let me ask you just so we're clear,
because some of it came up in April two thousand
and eight and June of two thousand and eight. Between
that period of time, did you have any moral or

(52:02):
religious qualms? Against pre marital sex.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
I mean, ironically, it was kind of I hadn't actually
attended an LDS church for probably over a year at
that time, and she would often tell me how she
felt about, you know, her religious beliefs, the Book of
Mormon and how she felt. And I think that was
kind of one of the big reasons why I didn't
want her to regret her trip when she came is

(52:27):
because I certainly didn't want her going home feeling like
she regretted her trip or she made a huge mistake,
or that she let temptation take over. And so you know,
that was one of the things that kind of made
me stop, you know, when things were kind of getting
a little heated between us, and so, yeah, it was
more her expressing her religious beliefs and almost trying to

(52:49):
bring me closer to God.

Speaker 5 (52:51):
Okay, and you made that comment, I think too. You know,
I know you spoke to Detective Flores on the phone. Yeah, Yeah,
and we spoke of a year or so. Yeah, and
that's you said. You said that very thing during one
of those conversations, that she was trying to bring you

(53:11):
closer to God, right, And that was during those phone
conversations and to your understanding. Was she a member of
your I guess former church at that time?

Speaker 1 (53:23):
She was, Yes, she was well they would call a convert.
She was baptized later on. She wasn't grown. I don't
think she wasn't raised in the church. Somebody had introduced
her to it.

Speaker 10 (53:36):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (53:38):
Do you know who that someone was?

Speaker 1 (53:40):
I've been told it was Travis Okay.

Speaker 5 (53:42):
But she did by her for someone else or just gossip?

Speaker 1 (53:47):
No, I think she told She told me. She told
me in one of our conversations.

Speaker 5 (53:50):
Okay. And did she she seek to get you reinvested
in the church?

Speaker 2 (53:56):
Is that a little bit?

Speaker 1 (53:57):
I mean, yeah, she'd mentioned reading my scriptures and.

Speaker 5 (54:01):
You know yeah, okay. And do you believe she was
any reason to doubt or sincerity in that?

Speaker 10 (54:08):
If?

Speaker 5 (54:09):
No? Okay, during these conversations that you had where you're
talking about the scripture and your relationship with God, did
she ever talk to you about or confide in you?

(54:30):
I should say that she had a sexual relationship with
mister Alexander. Yeah, okay, tell us about that.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
She told me that she never wanted me to say
anything to anybody because she didn't want to deentify him
in front of people that knew him, but that they
did go a lot further than they should have. I
don't know if I ever heard her say they had sex,
but it seemed like that's what she was saying. I
didn't want to ask the specific question because I didn't
feel like it's my business, but yes, at one point,

(55:01):
maybe I did ask her, and yeah, I found out
that they that they had had sex together.

Speaker 5 (55:07):
Yeah, okay, And you know, you use the word to edify,
and that came up in the text or excuse me,
the instant messages you read a moment ago. You know,
that leads me to ask a question during these conversations,
text messages, emails, whatever mode you use to communicate. Did

(55:29):
she ever bad enough Travis? Did she ever edify.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
It besides the conversation about him cheating on her and
him being unfaithful and and uh she felt just not
being honest with her.

Speaker 17 (55:48):
No.

Speaker 1 (55:48):
In fact that I always found it quite surprising that
some of the people who even after we found out,
which I believe was four or five days after Travis
was killed, we didn't know that for a week.

Speaker 5 (55:59):
Mister Burns, good, let's just fu absolutely sorry that period
of time. Okay, Yeah, she never edified him before June fourth.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
She never said bad things about him. Really, Okay, I
mean besides that when she said the trust issue, besides that,
everything was he was a great guy, he inspired her,
He was great everything.

Speaker 5 (56:19):
This trust issue and this cell phone and this response
to a text message from another girl. You recall talking
to that.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
Yeah, I do remember that.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (56:31):
Do you know which girl she was referring to?

Speaker 1 (56:36):
No idea?

Speaker 5 (56:37):
Okay, do you know the period of time that we're
talking about when she found this out?

Speaker 1 (56:42):
I was under the consumption it was a long time ago.
I didn't know if it was six months ago or
two years ago. I really didn't know. And again I didn't.
I didn't try to pride too much in that relationship.
I didn't feel like that was just in what Yeah,
I didn't. I didn't know how long ago it was.

Speaker 5 (56:58):
Okay, fair enough. Do you recall when they broke up
or did she ever advise you of that?

Speaker 1 (57:04):
When she became seemed like a year ago. I was
under the impression, I thought, but I on it could
have been two years prior. I don't remember having that
conversation about when timeline.

Speaker 5 (57:13):
Okay, do you know if it was the infidelity that
motivated this breakup.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
From everything judge.

Speaker 15 (57:28):
All right, mister Martinez, did you have an objection?

Speaker 8 (57:36):
Faithful?

Speaker 15 (57:37):
Since there were so many people talking at once when
you asked the question again, please wait, in the event
there is an objection, I need.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
To respond absolutely.

Speaker 5 (57:49):
Okay, mister Burns. There was some infidelity referenced in the
instant message conversations we just saw. Do you remember that.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
Yeah, it seemed like she didn't trust him. I don't
know if he was doing stuff with other girls besides
flirting and talking to other people.

Speaker 5 (58:09):
Do you remember in your conversations with her was do
you know if that was the reason that motivated them
to break up?

Speaker 1 (58:16):
It seemed like, yeah, that was what I think. At
one point I even complimented her, and I felt like
she was full disclosure. I felt like she was telling
me a lot more than she needed to and I
didn't ask her to. And yeah, it seemed like the
reason they broke up was because they didn't trust each other.

Speaker 5 (58:33):
Okay. During one of the conversations you had, you made
a comment that something the effect that Travis didn't want
the relationship he had, and I think you referenced it
a little bit earlier today, Travis didn't want their relationship

(58:55):
to be public. Do you recall saying that?

Speaker 1 (58:59):
Or yeah? I think that was that seemed like that
was some of her frustration that it just didn't seem
like the relationship was going anywhere. And I think that
and that's why she told me she moved away, because
it just was, she explained, it was it was hard

(59:23):
to stop seeing each other when they were so close,
So she moved away.

Speaker 5 (59:27):
And when you say moved away, do you did she
reference where she was moving.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
To from Arizona to California. She, Yeah, she moved away
for that.

Speaker 5 (59:37):
And I don't think you mentioned specific city, but you
mentioned when this was when she returned to northern California, correct, Yeah, yeah,
and this would have been when.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
Do you recall when she moved away from him?

Speaker 5 (59:54):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (59:54):
I wouldn't know.

Speaker 5 (59:55):
Okay, do you remember when she told you about that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Just that was the end of it, okay, but or
that she wished that was the end of it.

Speaker 6 (01:00:07):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (01:00:07):
But you don't remember when she moved She didn't. You
don't just saying hey, I'm moving or anything like that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
You don't know. I don't remember per saying that to me.

Speaker 5 (01:00:16):
But I still want to give it back to my
question about how mister Alexander didn't want their relationship to
be public, which is something you've said in prior interviews.

Speaker 12 (01:00:29):
What did you mean by that?

Speaker 5 (01:00:31):
How did you get that impression?

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
It just seemed like they were just on the way
to breaking up, and they kind of hooked up a
few times after they had broken up. You know, I
think he from the the sounds of it, sounded like
she wanted to move on, and it sounded like he
wanted to move on.

Speaker 5 (01:00:52):
M Okay, So I want to get I want to
let me ask this a different way. Then, did you
ever see and how long was this convention in Oklahoma City?

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
Two days?

Speaker 5 (01:01:09):
Two days?

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
Okay, sometimes three if you'd fly in the day before.

Speaker 5 (01:01:12):
And I'm guessing the logistics of it was it's located
at a certain hotel and everybody's.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
The Cox Convention Center in Oklahoma.

Speaker 5 (01:01:22):
And I certainly don't expect you to have an attendance
total with me, But are we talking hundreds of people?
Thousands of people?

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Well over ten thousand, okay?

Speaker 5 (01:01:32):
And there were there a social event, I mean you
talked about meetings or social events that sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
Yeah, social events, parties. They do training throughout the day
for about eight hours, so you got two four hour
sessions then and then usually after they would have you know,
dance parties, hanging out, all kinds of stuff going on.

Speaker 5 (01:01:57):
And it sounds to me from what you've told us
in the past, is it you and Jody had a
fair amount of mutual friends? Is that correct?

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:02:07):
Okay?

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:02:09):
And was there any interaction with yourself and those mutual
friends at the convention with Jody? There?

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
No, okay, just me and Jody. I mean I talked
to those friends all the time there, but not with
interaction with Jody.

Speaker 5 (01:02:27):
Did you ever see at this convention Travis and Jody
together as a couple?

Speaker 16 (01:02:35):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
I no, no, okay.

Speaker 5 (01:02:42):
Did you ever see or hear of them together as
a couple in any other forum? No?

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
That's why when we had a conversation that they had
been talking twice a week, I was shot because I
thought they weren't talking to each other at all. I
didn't know.

Speaker 5 (01:02:57):
That talking to each other could mean a lot of
different things. Does that mean, does that mean dating? Or
did you have any sensors?

Speaker 7 (01:03:10):
There's your question.

Speaker 5 (01:03:13):
Did you have any knowledge of mister Alexander and miss
Arias spending time together back in two thousand and eight.

Speaker 15 (01:03:24):
Fo you mean answer overworlding me? Answer yes or no?

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
No?

Speaker 5 (01:03:30):
Okay, the conversing that you referenced a moment ago. You
learned that knowledge through Jody. Is that correct? Yes, moment hunter,

(01:03:52):
mister Burns, I'm going to hand you a copy of.

Speaker 18 (01:03:56):
What's been marked as Exhibit eighty three, just to refresh
your recollection about when I'm showing you, Uh, this was a.

Speaker 5 (01:04:10):
Do you remember having some telephonic conversations with Detective Flores.

Speaker 11 (01:04:15):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 5 (01:04:19):
That was back in the summer of two thousand and eight.

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
You recall that, Yeah, probably the middle of June, late,
maybe later, I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Okay.

Speaker 5 (01:04:30):
What I'm gonna do is ask you to read starting
at line seven of this existion and.

Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
Proper each bit. And if he's just giving it to
him to refresh his recollection, there's no question before the
witness or his recollection to be refreshed about.

Speaker 5 (01:04:50):
Council Mister Burns during the interview with tele through comment, I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
Going to object because he's going to introduce it. Here's
a by asking hum if you listened to look at it,
you can all right, Well, I'm.

Speaker 5 (01:05:10):
Asking for the subject matter. I'm asking the subject matter question,
not for specific verbiage.

Speaker 15 (01:05:15):
Without referencing the specific statement, you may ask the.

Speaker 5 (01:05:19):
Question, do you remember recalled referencing to some Detective Flores
that there was some discussions about people warning Jody not
today Travis because he was a lady's statement about what
other people are saying.

Speaker 15 (01:05:34):
Here's it, gentlemen, we are going to take the new
recess at this time. Please be back in the designated
area at one twenty five. Please remember the admonition have
a nice lunch. You are excused, please stay, please be seated.
The record will show the jury has left the courtroom.

(01:05:55):
Mister Nermi, you may continue with this witness outside the
presence of the jury for purposes.

Speaker 5 (01:05:59):
Of mister Burns. You made a statement in your interview
with Detective Flores, and since we'relsoire the presidence of the jury,
you said, and in fact, they told Travis to they
told her to stop dating Travis because they felt like
he was kind of a ladies man. Do you recall that?

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:06:24):
Okay, And Judge I would just be asking him what
you meant by that, and what do you Okay, what
do you mean what did you mean by that?

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
I mean, I think Travis had the reputation of just
kind of being a fun flirt And I don't know
who you're referring to when I said they. It's five
years ago, so I don't know who I'm referring to
when I say they.

Speaker 11 (01:06:48):
And I'm not.

Speaker 5 (01:06:48):
Asking you that, I'm just asking you what you meant
by when you said that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
Okay, he was flirtatious, okay.

Speaker 5 (01:06:56):
And the other comment you made directly I was opening
to that is that he wasn't treating her right. Do
you recall making that statement. I don't remember saying that, okay.
Do you know what you would have meant by that statement?

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
Probably from conversations, from what Jody telling me that he
had talked to other girls even when they were supposed
to be together, that might have been what I meant.

Speaker 5 (01:07:24):
Judge I, as it relates to the objection, I don't
know if you want to have this here in front
of the witness of the argument.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
Mister Martinez, what have you heard of that particular statement
that they that's an exhibit number two AD three. They
told Travis too, They told her to stop dating Travis
because they felt he was kind of a ladies man.
And you know who is this they person? I just

(01:07:53):
don't no, what did they tell you this information?

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
I don't remember saying any of that. I just don't
remember how that conversation went.

Speaker 5 (01:08:05):
I just can't remember.

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
I have any idea what the motivation was for them
to be saying, man.

Speaker 1 (01:08:11):
The only thing I can think of that would have
given no, no, no, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
I'm not asking you to speculate. Where were you when
you heard where you may have heard this.

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
That they shouldn't.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
Age told her to stop dating Travis.

Speaker 1 (01:08:30):
I don't know. I don't know when I would have
heard that. I don't I don't remember saying that. I
just don't remember how that conversation was going.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
What were the words that were used? Other than your
conclusion they told her to stop dating Travis? What were
the words that were used?

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):
I just don't I don't remember any of that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:50):
And in terms of he wasn't treating her right?

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
When but then they they were telling me, you know,
who are that they that are telling you that he
wasn't treating her right?

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
I mean, I just I really don't know who would
have told me that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
It might have been speculating.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
Yeah, that's what I mean. I could take a guess
of who I might have heard that from. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:09:16):
With regard to what it was that the statement was.
What was the statement that involved the treatment his treatment
of her? He wasn't treating her right? What was the
exact words?

Speaker 19 (01:09:35):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:09:36):
In terms of Alexander. When mister Nurman was asking you
the questions, he said, well, he was a flirt something
like that. That was his reputation, right, Yes, yes, what
do you mean when you say he was a flirt?

Speaker 1 (01:09:53):
Just talk to everybody you know, and you know he
was flirtatious. I mean he you know, I don't know
if Clancy went told me that. I don't know who
told me that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
I know, what do you mean when you say that
he's a flirt?

Speaker 1 (01:10:09):
I didn't know enough about him, but I just knew
he was a flirt and that, you know, he he was.
I remember Clancy telling me, you know at times that
you know, he would he just that just was him
and she was you know, he would just flirt with everybody,
just goofing around. Nobody really took it seriously. It seemed like,

(01:10:29):
you know, obviously he's just a flirt. That that's what
that might have been. What I meant.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
At least somebody named Clancy told you that he was
a flirt, So that's Clancy telling you.

Speaker 4 (01:10:37):
That, right.

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
Yeah, I don't have any other questions.

Speaker 15 (01:10:43):
Chester you ner anything to follow up?

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
No, you just argument.

Speaker 17 (01:10:47):
I don't think it's profect.

Speaker 15 (01:10:50):
So his reputation was based upon what others told you.
Is that correct?

Speaker 1 (01:10:54):
Right? I didn't know him. Yeah, personally, we think.

Speaker 15 (01:10:57):
You may step down. Please return it one twenty five.

Speaker 5 (01:10:59):
Okay, it's before we have argument. I wanted to be
ensured that the microphones are off. It appears he's going
into the victim's room.

Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
He's going through the victim's rooms. That's where he has
his wallet and his money for lunch.

Speaker 15 (01:11:13):
All right, we turned it all off, you perceived.

Speaker 5 (01:11:18):
So it's ultimately this isn't the objection that the way
I understand the state's objection, and actually perhaps it was
mister Martinez's objection. He should explain his objection because it
doesn't appear to be hearsay at all.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
So, okay, mis Martinez, your objections hearsay. He's trying to
introduce evidence of an out of court statement by somebody
that they don't know even who said it. This individual
does not lack This individual lacks any information as to
who even told him.

Speaker 15 (01:11:49):
I know what.

Speaker 2 (01:11:50):
The bench defense counsel argued, well, it's not offered for
the truth of the matter asserted. In other words, he's saying,
I don't think that mister Alexander was a flirt. I
don't think mister Alexander treated or badly. It's not being
off for the truth of the matter assert it. If
that's his position, then it's irrelevant. What difference does it
make then what he was So my objection is too pronged.
It's hearsay and there's no foundation. And if he's offering

(01:12:14):
it not for the truth of the matter asserted, then
it's irrelevant.

Speaker 5 (01:12:20):
However, many prongs the state's objection has. Both prongs are nonsensical.
It's not hearsay because we're not trying to get in
a statement. Mister Burns stated that mister Alexander didn't treat
miss Areas right and that she was warned or there

(01:12:42):
was this discussion that she should not date him, and
throughout the examination subsequent outside of the view with the jury,
he said, well that was because he was a flirt
and that sort of thing. After mister Martinez took it
to the extreme, and who said this?

Speaker 2 (01:12:59):
Who said that?

Speaker 5 (01:12:59):
Because keep in mind, I didn't say did someone tell
you this? Did someone tell you that? That wasn't the question,
That wasn't the subject of inquiry. He goes down, breaks
him down and says, well maybe. He says, I don't know.
I don't know who said this. I don't know who
said that, And then after being badgered for a little while,
he says, well, you know, Clancy might have said this
person Clancy might have said something about this, which was

(01:13:23):
so far from the question. This is general reputation evidence.
But he knew about his reputation. We're not saying anything
about what someone said to somebody else. I did not
ask him about Clancy. That's why I say it's nonsensical
because I'm not asking about a statement to hearsay. So
you know, see, we don't even get to truth or

(01:13:44):
matter asserted because there is no statement, and that was
the point I was making, advent, we're not even talking
about anything being offered for the truth or matter asserted.
So Judge, I think the objection is not well taken
and should be overruled and we should be able to
wire mister Burns on this subject matter.

Speaker 15 (01:14:03):
All right, mister Naming. The question is whether or not
this witness had information from individuals that he cannot now
identify regarding the victim. I believe that is hearsay. I'm
going to sustain the objection to that question. If you
want to rephrase your question, I will hear that and

(01:14:24):
any objections the state may have, but I'm going to
sustain the objection. I believe it is here seeing I
do not believe it is relevant that some unknown third
parties gave him this information. So if you want to
rephrase the question, when we come back from lunch, I'll
give you an opportunity to let me know what that
question would be able to give a state an opportunity
to object. And then.

Speaker 5 (01:14:48):
And for the record, I'm sure to defend it. The
exhivic mark as you did ninety one. Did you take
a look at this place, sir? Sure? Now some movie
view of that exhibit? What day of the week was
June or excuse me, what days were your business briefing?

Speaker 6 (01:15:09):
Then?

Speaker 1 (01:15:10):
My business briefing was on Thursday. My training was on Wednesday.

Speaker 5 (01:15:16):
Okay, so could you tell us numerically what days those were?

Speaker 1 (01:15:21):
Wednesday? Thursday? And are you talking about the first week
of June.

Speaker 5 (01:15:24):
No, I'm saying numerically, what day of the week was
that the first? The second? What day was was that business.

Speaker 1 (01:15:30):
Briefing every Thursday and every Wednesday?

Speaker 5 (01:15:35):
I'm asking you numerically, is that day that first week
in June?

Speaker 15 (01:15:41):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (01:15:41):
What day was your business?

Speaker 1 (01:15:42):
The business briefing was on the fifth?

Speaker 5 (01:15:45):
Okay? And the training was on what day?

Speaker 1 (01:15:48):
The fourth?

Speaker 5 (01:15:48):
Okay? And your understanding, I believe what you testified to
is that miss Arius was to arrive in your in
your area and sol like around June fourth?

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):
Correct for the first Yeah, sometime on.

Speaker 5 (01:16:06):
June fourth, Okay, sometime on June fourth, okay? And what
time was that? And I'm forgiving you said business briefing
and meeting? I think so on the fourth? Was there
a arrival time that I was expecting Joe?

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
Yeah, I knew she was leaving LA. The conversation I
had when she'd be leaving round about was nine pm
the night before nine or ten pm, So I was
expecting her. She drove straight through It's a twelve hour drive.
She would have got to my house at maybe ten am.
I didn't think she would drive straight through. You know,
we talked about she could call me if if she

(01:16:42):
got tired, and so obviously if she slept, then that
would take a little extra time to get there.

Speaker 5 (01:16:47):
Okay, So then let me back up then, or backing
up a bit and looking at the calendar in front
of you before she arrived in your home when you
met at her on the fifth. I believe you testified earlier. Correct, Yes,
she arrived on the fifth. Okay, she did the conversation

(01:17:07):
you were just referencing in advance of the fourth. When
did that take place?

Speaker 1 (01:17:13):
I mean that would have been on Tuesday night, the third,
maybe around nine or ten pm.

Speaker 5 (01:17:18):
Okay. And during that conversation, did she tell you where
she was at?

Speaker 1 (01:17:25):
I think she had already visited the family. She told
me she was going to in the southern California area,
and I can't remember the city. I'm thinking La right now.
Okay enough, And she was going to leave originally the
plans while she's going to go visit whoever whatever, she
was going to be there then come see me. So
I assumed she was in the LA area to come
see me after Okay.

Speaker 5 (01:17:44):
But she didn't specifically mention I'm in Blank City. If
she did, I don't remember, Okay, today, did she do
you recall if she's told you I'm in southern California?

Speaker 1 (01:17:56):
Yeah, I think so, okay, Yes, okay.

Speaker 5 (01:17:59):
And during that conversation at nine or ten pm, did
she say to you, I'm going to be late, I'm
not going to be there till Thursday, anything like that, No, okay.
Did she make any excuse as well, I might be
a little late for any particular.

Speaker 1 (01:18:20):
Reason, maybe to take a nap in case she got hurt.

Speaker 5 (01:18:24):
But she advised you that she was going to be
there on June fourth, yes, okay. And it sounds to me,
further than from your conversation, that there was at least
some discussion or some acknowledgment that you were approximately twelve

(01:18:49):
hours away at the time.

Speaker 4 (01:18:50):
Yes.

Speaker 5 (01:18:53):
Did she give you any indication I'm going to leave,
I'm leaving right now, or I'm going to leave in
an hour or so? Was that discussed or I think.

Speaker 1 (01:19:01):
That's why I was on the under impression should be
there in twelve hours if not later. Okay, Yeah, she
was leaving, yes, okay.

Speaker 6 (01:19:09):
And she.

Speaker 5 (01:19:15):
Arrived on the fifth yes, is that correct? When I
understood your testimony? And if I understood you correctly, that
was around ten or eleven in the morning, Is that right?

Speaker 19 (01:19:29):
Right?

Speaker 5 (01:19:29):
Okay? And in your honor, so, would you'd be so
kind as to take a look at Exhibits to seventy eight,
two seventy nine, to eighty, to eighty one and to

(01:19:50):
eighty two, and please don't read them out loud, just
please tell us if you recognize what they are under
the reviewing the car to yourself?

Speaker 1 (01:20:06):
Yeah, I do, reconnizink And.

Speaker 5 (01:20:08):
What are they?

Speaker 6 (01:20:09):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (01:20:09):
Is the text messages that we text back and forth
to each other?

Speaker 12 (01:20:14):
Okay?

Speaker 5 (01:20:17):
Please?

Speaker 1 (01:20:18):
Mostly well, so well what I said?

Speaker 5 (01:20:19):
Would you said text messages from you?

Speaker 12 (01:20:22):
Okay, you're on.

Speaker 5 (01:20:23):
I move that Exhibit two seventy eight, two seventy nine,
two eighty two, eighty one.

Speaker 12 (01:20:29):
And two eighty two the movie.

Speaker 15 (01:20:30):
The other is the text what your saying, council approach
two eighty two eighty one and two eighty two words.

Speaker 5 (01:20:42):
And you're gonna fin may approach again, you may, mister Burns,
I'm gonna.

Speaker 12 (01:20:46):
Show you again once Tod Mark.

Speaker 5 (01:20:48):
Just Exhibit to seventy eight. Could you review that to yourself?
Again as well.

Speaker 11 (01:20:53):
Yeah, yeah, and what is that?

Speaker 1 (01:21:00):
It's a text I sent her and of April.

Speaker 5 (01:21:04):
And uh, that was while advancing your relationship, and at
that point.

Speaker 1 (01:21:10):
In time, I mean we had been talking quite a bit. Yeah, okay,
still had never spent time with her besides the short
time in Oklahoma.

Speaker 5 (01:21:22):
So in the context of this text message, then you
were still you were asserting or explaining your continued romantic
interest in her. Is that's fair to say?

Speaker 1 (01:21:33):
Sure?

Speaker 5 (01:21:37):
And I finally approaching in your honor, I'm don't show
you what's been marked zer two seventy nine, and that would.

Speaker 12 (01:21:49):
Also be a text message when you had heard that correctly.

Speaker 5 (01:21:53):
Yes, okay, And that was a further continuation of that
conversation where you were expressing your again continued romantic interest
in her. Judge I moved forward. Yes, yes, unitions of
Exhibit two seventy eight, two seventy nine, all.

Speaker 15 (01:22:12):
Right, the injections of a rule two seventy two seventy.

Speaker 5 (01:22:14):
Nine, will you why don't we start, mister Burns with
you said, in reference to Exhibit to seventy eight, you
made the comment you hadn't heard from her in a while,
and you sent her Exhibit to seventy eight in an

(01:22:35):
effort to kind of make contact with her. Is that correct?

Speaker 1 (01:22:39):
If I can see it, it'd make more sense, she explained.

Speaker 5 (01:22:41):
Why don't we go ahead and put this up here?
You can see that on your screen? Can you see
that on your screen?

Speaker 10 (01:22:49):
Yeah?

Speaker 12 (01:22:50):
Okay?

Speaker 5 (01:22:51):
Could you tell us when you sent that text message.

Speaker 1 (01:22:54):
April thirtieth at eight o three am?

Speaker 5 (01:22:57):
Okay? And do you read that for us?

Speaker 8 (01:23:01):
Never?

Speaker 1 (01:23:01):
Well, not until I get my good night text from
my adorable girl in Cali?

Speaker 5 (01:23:05):
Okay? And that you said earlier than is that correct?

Speaker 4 (01:23:10):
Then?

Speaker 5 (01:23:10):
From what you said earlier, that was your reaching out
to her because you hadn't heard from her for a while.

Speaker 12 (01:23:15):
Is that correct?

Speaker 1 (01:23:15):
I can't remember if there was a conversation before or
after this text. Okay, I don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:23:23):
I'm going to show you what's been marked as exhibit
to seventy nine. Are you able to see that on
your screen?

Speaker 4 (01:23:31):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (01:23:32):
Could you read for us the date and time that
was sent four.

Speaker 1 (01:23:37):
Thirty at eight thirteen am?

Speaker 5 (01:23:40):
And could you read that for us please, the whole
thing or just the part you're showing me? Well? Well, sorry,
how about that thank you gorgeous good night? Okay? Was
that in the same series of text messages.

Speaker 1 (01:23:56):
I mean it sounds like it's about the same time period.

Speaker 6 (01:23:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:24:02):
Now, sir, I'm going to show you what's been marked
as exhibit to eighty two. And this again from your
what you said earlier. This was another text message you
sent to miss Arius. Is that correct?

Speaker 1 (01:24:16):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:24:17):
Okay? And if you're able to with your screen, could
you read for us the day and time you sent
that May third, okay? And what time was that, sir?

Speaker 1 (01:24:29):
It says seven o nine am.

Speaker 5 (01:24:31):
Okay. And could you read for us your comment there.

Speaker 1 (01:24:37):
Just come and stay?

Speaker 5 (01:24:39):
And what was that a reference to?

Speaker 1 (01:24:43):
I'm sure we had talked about her coming and visiting
at some point she traveled. She seemed to travel a lot.

Speaker 5 (01:24:48):
Okay, And you wanted her to come? Sure, And sir,
I'm going to show you what's been marked as exhibit
to eighty one. So I'll just show you that first
part if you could be so, just to tell us
when you sent that text message to her.

Speaker 1 (01:25:05):
May third, seven nineteen am.

Speaker 5 (01:25:07):
Okay. And just so we're clear as it relates to
all these messages. We're talking two thousand and eight, because
this is after you met her, correct, Yes, okay? And
if you could be so kind as to read the
verbiage in that message.

Speaker 1 (01:25:27):
Good, so I'm getting closer to talking to you in okay? Okay,
good so I'm getting closer to talking to you into it? Lol?
What do I have to do to seal the deal?

Speaker 5 (01:25:37):
Lol? Okay? So it sounds like there might have been
some reluctance, whether over text messages or phone calls, for
her to come up to see you. Is it correct?

Speaker 1 (01:25:49):
I never felt that way. I think we've read the
other texts. I don't think we'd find that, Bud.

Speaker 5 (01:25:53):
You certain you imply in this text message as well,
you had you had to do something. You had to
do something to steal the deal. Was that about?

Speaker 1 (01:26:02):
Yeah? I was, yeah, just saying saying, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:26:06):
I'm sorry, I didn't understand.

Speaker 1 (01:26:08):
What's your question?

Speaker 5 (01:26:08):
Sorry? Well, I said, what was what was the point
of that message? What was the Why did you need
to talk her into it?

Speaker 1 (01:26:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:26:17):
I wanted her to come Okay, But when I asked
you a second ago if she was reluctant, you said
you didn't sense that. So I didn't know.

Speaker 1 (01:26:24):
I never sensed that. And I think if we read
all the texts, it might make more sense.

Speaker 2 (01:26:29):
Let me.

Speaker 5 (01:26:32):
Again on look, if you could read the day and
time you sent.

Speaker 1 (01:26:36):
This text the third seven twenty three am okay? And
could you read what you wrote there? You promise not
to play hard to get when you get here lol.

Speaker 2 (01:26:48):
And and just in case.

Speaker 5 (01:26:52):
People may not understand, what does LOL stand for?

Speaker 1 (01:26:56):
Black out loud? Okay? And we.

Speaker 12 (01:27:04):
Talk earlier or about.

Speaker 5 (01:27:09):
Let me ask you this, would you read that those
text messages that you sent her were flirtatious?

Speaker 1 (01:27:17):
Sure?

Speaker 5 (01:27:18):
Okay, we talked a little.

Speaker 18 (01:27:21):
Bit about.

Speaker 5 (01:27:23):
Earlier. You made the comment that you had engaged in
sexual conversations with miss Areas after she was there. Okay,
after she was there, so before that, nun and then
after she was there, are we talking about that same
sort of thing? Are we talking about something different.

Speaker 1 (01:27:42):
After she had visited? What's the same sort of thing?
What are your thinking?

Speaker 5 (01:27:46):
Well, these flirtatious messages, talking about not playing hard to
get that sort of thing? Is that what you mean
by yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:27:52):
Before she had come, I mean we talked about what
we would do watching a movie and cuddling up, and
that's what I was referring to in those texts.

Speaker 5 (01:28:01):
Okay, And after was the conversation flirtatious as I just said. Okay,
that's what you meant by sexual conversations. Yes, And that's
what you meant by sexual conversations with her afterwards? Right?

Speaker 1 (01:28:19):
These texts were shown in a month before she came
to visit. Now you're talking about after she was there.
So I don't know what you're asking.

Speaker 5 (01:28:26):
Okay, you told us that you had conversations with her
of a sexual nature after her visit. Correct, Yeah, Okay,
what I'm asking you is if those the sexual nature
of those conversations was as the same character as what

(01:28:47):
we just saw.

Speaker 1 (01:28:50):
We knew each other a lot more by that point,
she had spent a whole day with me, so it
was a little different.

Speaker 5 (01:28:54):
Okay. And how would you characterize these message that these conversations.

Speaker 1 (01:29:01):
Set started talking? I guess about you know why things
didn't go further. At one point I kind of explained why,
and she she complimented me. At some point. She also
said she's a big girl and she can take care
of herself. That I didn't need to protect her feelings.

Speaker 5 (01:29:23):
Okay, And is that what you meant by phone sex
earlier or sexual conversations?

Speaker 1 (01:29:30):
It wasn't necessarily phone sex, but more like what could
happen if we met up again, and she did invite
me out to California to spend some time with her
at a team event after, you know, a few weeks
after we found out Travis had dyed.

Speaker 5 (01:29:46):
Okay, I appreciate you clearing that up for me as
it relates to the visit itself. Then it sounds to
me like, based on these messages and some of the
things you said, I mean, not just these text messages,
but the phone conversation, the the I ams, the text

(01:30:10):
messages that you were at least hoping for I'll use
the words romantic interaction when she arrived. Is that fair
to say? When she came first time, first, when she
came to your house home in June of two thousand

(01:30:32):
and eight, when she arrived on the fifth, you were expecting,
maybe expecting too big a word. You were hoping for
a romantic interaction. Right.

Speaker 1 (01:30:42):
We had talked about, you know, joking around on the
phone whether I had to make a move if we
were snuggling up, and she said no, she's a snuggler,
and that's why I laughed. And that was part of
the continual conversation about how she said you know what
you have to play hard to get. She said she's
a snuggler, and that's what that was all in context
with watching a movie, snuggling up, that.

Speaker 20 (01:31:04):
Was what that was talking about.

Speaker 5 (01:31:05):
But then it sounds to me like, given what you
said before, you found her attractive Crept, Yes, okay, and
you were interested in pursuing a romantic relationship with her, correct, Yeah, okay,
So it would be reasonable to assume that you were
hoping for some sort of romantic interaction with her, be

(01:31:25):
it kissing, And I'm not just talking to sex sexual intercourse.
I'm talking kissing, cuddling, what have you. That was what
you were hoping or maybe expecting to happen when she
got there in June.

Speaker 12 (01:31:36):
Is that Crept.

Speaker 1 (01:31:39):
Now you're talking about before? You know, my mind frame
was in a different frame before she got there the
first time, and then this after.

Speaker 5 (01:31:46):
That time, specifically talking about June fifth. Oh, she came
two thousand and eight, okay, And that would have been
the first time you saw her since April. Based on
your other testimony, that would have been the first time
you saw her since April in Oklahoma City, right, Yes, okay,

(01:32:08):
you keep saying first time was there another time.

Speaker 1 (01:32:11):
That's what I mean. I know that was the only
time that we had spent time together, Okay, was.

Speaker 5 (01:32:18):
June fifth to six, I guess, near Salt Lake City,
at your home and the various cheesecake factory in the
various restaurants you went to, right, Yeah, okay, So I'm
what I'm asking you then, because you kind of qualified
it a little bit talking about the different trips and
so it got a little confused. But when she was

(01:32:39):
coming to see you, you're expecting her arrival on June fourth, fifth,
and she arrives on June fifth. Excuse me? You were
hoping or expecting a romantic interaction, Isn't that correct?

Speaker 1 (01:32:51):
It's not going up getting to know her. I mean,
I didn't know how much I liked her or not,
and I figured meeting her personally I would be able
to decide whether I wanted to pursue anything further. So
what I've explained is what Okay, I was hoping for,
getting to more spend.

Speaker 5 (01:33:06):
Time with her. Did the visit meet your expectations? Were
you happy with her when she left?

Speaker 1 (01:33:10):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (01:33:11):
Okay? And so you testified as well that it sounds
like you interacted with her for not quite twenty four hours,
is that correct? About a day or a little less
than a day.

Speaker 1 (01:33:27):
When Wednesday the fourth, when she was yet well, it.

Speaker 5 (01:33:30):
Sounds like she arrived based on your earlier testimony, she
arrived with thursd Thursday.

Speaker 1 (01:33:34):
Yeah, and I wasn't able to get older on Wednesday,
that's what you mean?

Speaker 17 (01:33:37):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:33:38):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:33:38):
But I mean what I'm saying is you you saw
her Thursday around eleven ten or eleven by your testimony,
and she left the next day around what time?

Speaker 1 (01:33:48):
Maybe midnight? One, I'm not positive on the but it
was very late, a little more than a day, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:33:55):
Okay, But during that time you saw nothing abnormal. No,
she was acting very similar to the way she had
in the past or and all her interactions with you. Yes,
is that right?

Speaker 15 (01:34:10):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (01:34:11):
And that was other than the cuts on her hand,
that was something consistent throughout your interaction with her, Is
that correct?

Speaker 4 (01:34:20):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:34:20):
Okay? And it was also true I believe what we
were talking about this morning that you also observed her
being shy in public yet a little more talkative and
interactive in private. Is that correct? Yes, So that behavior
was completely consistent as well, Is that right?

Speaker 1 (01:34:38):
That was the first time I saw in public, so
I wouldn't have had any reference point there, but yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:34:42):
Okay, I used Oklahoma City as a reference point in.

Speaker 1 (01:34:45):
Three or four minutes, okay. And I spent a lot
more time obviously that night she came to visit with
in public.

Speaker 5 (01:34:50):
But that was consistent, the fun interaction and everything else. Yeah,
all consistent. All appeared perfectly normal to you. Is that correct?

Speaker 1 (01:34:56):
It's normal?

Speaker 10 (01:34:56):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (01:34:57):
Okay, thank you sir?

Speaker 1 (01:34:58):
Thanks?

Speaker 2 (01:35:00):
Were you direct their at times?

Speaker 12 (01:35:03):
In terms of how much time she spent with you?

Speaker 1 (01:35:05):
You told us that she arrived what day of the week,
on Thursday the fifth, and you.

Speaker 2 (01:35:13):
Did what you guys did, and she stayed part of
the night, is what you said before?

Speaker 10 (01:35:18):
Right? Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:35:19):
And she left that night, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:35:21):
So she didn't stay more than twenty four hours?

Speaker 1 (01:35:23):
Did she know?

Speaker 2 (01:35:24):
How long did she stay?

Speaker 1 (01:35:25):
I've been fourteen fifteen hours.

Speaker 2 (01:35:28):
Let's talk about these texas.

Speaker 12 (01:35:34):
And I'll start with exhibit.

Speaker 2 (01:35:36):
Number to eighty. Take a look at the upper what
is well right there? What does that say up there?

Speaker 1 (01:35:49):
That must be text eight of forty three?

Speaker 2 (01:35:51):
Where are the other texas? Are you hiding them somewhere?

Speaker 15 (01:35:54):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:35:55):
Are you texting yourself through these things?

Speaker 10 (01:35:58):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:35:58):
It's a conversation between both of the us.

Speaker 2 (01:36:00):
Where are the texts from her sustainct with regard to these?
Are you responding to her?

Speaker 4 (01:36:07):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:36:08):
And she's sending you things right, it's going back and forth.

Speaker 2 (01:36:11):
And by looking at these, can you tell what she
texts you in advance of number eight, which is exhibit to.

Speaker 1 (01:36:16):
Eighty not exactly what she said before?

Speaker 5 (01:36:18):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:36:19):
Could she have been telling you, hey, we're gonna have
some good sex. We don't even know, can't do we?

Speaker 1 (01:36:24):
She never said that, but just yeah, no, I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:36:27):
Know any idea? As you said here, I can't remember.

Speaker 15 (01:36:30):
It's too LONGO overworld you mean answer yes or no?

Speaker 1 (01:36:35):
What's a question?

Speaker 3 (01:36:36):
Any idea? What this is responding to?

Speaker 1 (01:36:40):
I can't remember?

Speaker 2 (01:36:40):
Now to eighty one? What's that up here at the right? Good?

Speaker 5 (01:36:49):
What are you saying?

Speaker 2 (01:36:50):
Good too?

Speaker 1 (01:36:51):
Something she said?

Speaker 2 (01:36:53):
Do you know what it is?

Speaker 5 (01:36:54):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:36:59):
Exhibit two seventy nine. You're saying, thank you gorgeous?

Speaker 2 (01:37:02):
What are you thanking her.

Speaker 1 (01:37:03):
For the conversation?

Speaker 12 (01:37:05):
Chatting with her?

Speaker 1 (01:37:06):
I don't do you know?

Speaker 2 (01:37:07):
You're looking at this what you are thanking her for?

Speaker 5 (01:37:09):
Answered overalled?

Speaker 1 (01:37:11):
You may answer the conversation we had, and I don't
know exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:37:15):
What she's saying in that conversation.

Speaker 1 (01:37:17):
As you look at this, I need to read it
or remember when any time.

Speaker 15 (01:37:21):
Please your objection, mister Nurman.

Speaker 5 (01:37:23):
It's argumentative, as the narrative is leading.

Speaker 2 (01:37:25):
The witness overalled. You may answer, what what she's saying?
Do you even know what she was saying?

Speaker 19 (01:37:31):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:37:34):
Exhibit seventy eight never exclamation for.

Speaker 10 (01:37:41):
What?

Speaker 1 (01:37:41):
Do you never have no idea?

Speaker 2 (01:37:46):
And if we'll take a look at these with two
seventy eight, what's the date on that one?

Speaker 1 (01:37:56):
It's May thirtieth. The time just doesn't seem consistent with
their converse.

Speaker 2 (01:38:00):
Take a look at it again, what's the what's the
dame April thirtieth, and what's the number at the upright
end corner?

Speaker 1 (01:38:07):
Twenty three or forty three text messages? And then if
we take a look in the time, take a look
at the time eight oh three in the morning. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:38:19):
Then if we take a look at exhibit two seventy nine,
look at the date, yeah, is it the same date
as the previous one seventy eight?

Speaker 1 (01:38:29):
Yes, same date? What's the time eight thirteen?

Speaker 2 (01:38:34):
That's later, right, right, sir.

Speaker 12 (01:38:48):
One of the things that you were asked about was cuddling.
Do you remember being asked.

Speaker 3 (01:38:53):
About cuddling on uh cross examination?

Speaker 2 (01:38:57):
Yeah, previous you talked about the interaction that you've had
with her when she showed up, right, Yeah? Was this
the first time when she showed up?

Speaker 10 (01:39:09):
There?

Speaker 15 (01:39:09):
Was this the first.

Speaker 2 (01:39:11):
This whole time? Was this the first.

Speaker 3 (01:39:14):
Episode of sexual interaction that you'd ever had with her?

Speaker 1 (01:39:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:39:18):
You didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:39:18):
Did you have any sexual interaction in Oklahoma City?

Speaker 2 (01:39:23):
And the kissing? About what time of the day was it?

Speaker 1 (01:39:30):
Probably three four pm?

Speaker 2 (01:39:33):
And she arrived at what time?

Speaker 1 (01:39:35):
Ten or eleven?

Speaker 2 (01:39:36):
I'm ten or eleven, so within five hours of arriving
and you've never seen her before, this interaction is taking place. Yes,
And you said, well, we talked about cuddling, do you
remember that?

Speaker 1 (01:39:51):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:39:52):
Does cuddling include her moving you around and getting on
top of you and grinding on your pelvis?

Speaker 6 (01:40:00):
Is that what you mean?

Speaker 1 (01:40:01):
We never talked about that is?

Speaker 3 (01:40:03):
But is that what cuddling means.

Speaker 6 (01:40:08):
To me?

Speaker 3 (01:40:08):
Answer is no, what is cuddling?

Speaker 1 (01:40:11):
I mean just snuggling up to a movie. I don't
know how it's to.

Speaker 2 (01:40:19):
One of the things that you were asked about was
the future of this relationship. That's one of the things
you were asked about in terms of what was the
interaction between you.

Speaker 6 (01:40:33):
And her.

Speaker 2 (01:40:35):
Over this either phone or maybe text message just after
she came to see you and you said it changed.
Do you remember saying that, Yeah, how did it change?

Speaker 1 (01:40:47):
I mean I had a good time with hers, spent
the whole day with her, and I felt like I
knew her a little bit better in.

Speaker 2 (01:40:53):
Terms of the sacks.

Speaker 12 (01:40:54):
Then, I'm going to be more direct.

Speaker 3 (01:40:57):
Do you think that if you had seen her again.

Speaker 2 (01:41:00):
Second time your opinion, given what had happened before you
were there, that you would have engaged in sexual intercourseation
O world hard to say.

Speaker 1 (01:41:12):
I think it could have gone further.

Speaker 2 (01:41:14):
I don't know how about the first time that you
were together. Could it have also gone further?

Speaker 1 (01:41:18):
Yes, A game calls for speculation, could it? I mean
it could have. I don't know, Honor.

Speaker 2 (01:41:25):
What One of the things that you also told defense
counsel is that when she talked to you about the
Mormon faith, was that you had a conversation with her
and you were asked well with regard to the men
Mormon faith based on what you knew of her, did

(01:41:48):
you did you have any reason to doubt her sincerity.
Do you remember being asked about that? Yes, I remember
applying that same standard. Did you have any doubt or
in her sincerity involving what she told you as to
why she was late in arriving to West Jordan, Utah.

Speaker 5 (01:42:13):
Across an argumentative counselor.

Speaker 2 (01:42:17):
To this issue of sincerity, you were asked about whether
or not she was sincere in her trying to have
you returned to the church, right, yeah, And what did
she do to try to get you in this sincerity
to get you to return to the church.

Speaker 1 (01:42:39):
I mean it wasn't It was more like casual conversation
talking about how she felt going to church, praying about it,
reading scriptures.

Speaker 10 (01:42:53):
You know, just her.

Speaker 2 (01:42:55):
Demeanor on the telephone when you spoke to her before
she came out to visit you, her demeanor in these
text messages at one of them being two eighty one,
and then after she left you did that change at all?

Speaker 3 (01:43:11):
No, I don't have any of the questions.

Speaker 2 (01:43:12):
Thank you, mister Jermy, Thank you, sir.

Speaker 1 (01:43:19):
Mister Burns.

Speaker 5 (01:43:20):
I think you might already answered this question, but I
was afraid it might have got lost in the other
voices speaking.

Speaker 2 (01:43:31):
Say to me, he can say it directly. Do you
hear the next question?

Speaker 5 (01:43:36):
Thank you? Mister Martinez asked you if she could have
sent you it to you could have been responding to
a question saying we're going to have some really good sex,
uh when I get up there?

Speaker 6 (01:43:49):
Right?

Speaker 5 (01:43:49):
That was he said something to that effect. He asked
you that if that was what you were responding to.
Is that you recalled that? Okay? And I believe you
said she didn't send you a text message like that?

Speaker 2 (01:43:59):
Is that?

Speaker 10 (01:44:00):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (01:44:00):
Okay? And she did it right?

Speaker 2 (01:44:02):
No?

Speaker 5 (01:44:03):
Okay, thank you sir?

Speaker 15 (01:44:05):
Anything else from the state?

Speaker 10 (01:44:08):
All right?

Speaker 15 (01:44:08):
It looks like a questions. Does any member of the
jury have a question for this witness? Looks like there
are some in the basket. I don't see any of
the pains. Counsel, please, mister Burns and jurors have some
questions for you. Where did the information about Travis Alexander

(01:44:29):
being a flirt to come from?

Speaker 1 (01:44:36):
It's hard hard to remember because most of the people
I talked to New Travis more than more than Jody.
One friend of JODI's was Leslie, and I think they
might have had a conversation at some point, kind of
just he wanted to move on she wanted to move
on and.

Speaker 15 (01:44:55):
Asked yes. The question was where did the information about
Travis Alexander being a flirt come from?

Speaker 1 (01:45:06):
I can't be sure, but I would say it would
probably be less sure. I can't remember, all right, I
guess it's a quest.

Speaker 15 (01:45:12):
Answer next question with regard to the exhibits you were
shown earlier, do you know where the date and timestamps
on the text messages came from? Are they sendates?

Speaker 5 (01:45:27):
Do you know?

Speaker 2 (01:45:28):
Yes or no?

Speaker 1 (01:45:29):
Don't know?

Speaker 15 (01:45:32):
Why would you say good night at eight thirteen am?

Speaker 1 (01:45:36):
I thought the same thing when I was reading the text.
It didn't fit. I don't see why i'd say good
night at eight am. I don't know why that would happen.

Speaker 15 (01:45:44):
Hand you exhibit to eighty six testified about that earlier.
Do you know what on what date those conversations occurred?

Speaker 1 (01:46:01):
This was either an instant message conversation we had when
before she came over to my house, or maybe the
eighth or the ninth, before anybody knew Travis had been killed.
This was the conversation. I think that's when this one is.
It's a few days after she had visited me.

Speaker 15 (01:46:23):
Follow up from the State.

Speaker 5 (01:46:26):
Jeremy, I do you honor Briefly, mister Burns, you were
asked about the dates and probably more specifically the times
that the text messages and the cures question Forrek. Yeah,
and what you said to us was that you didn't
know why the dates were excuse me the time for

(01:46:47):
what they were?

Speaker 1 (01:46:48):
Correct?

Speaker 9 (01:46:49):
Okay?

Speaker 5 (01:46:50):
And could you answer verbally for us please?

Speaker 1 (01:46:52):
Just what anybody else would guess. It's just from the phone.

Speaker 2 (01:46:55):
I guess, well, I'm not asking you to guess.

Speaker 5 (01:46:57):
I just wanted the verbal answer the core recorder that
you don't you don't have any explanation for the time
times they've seen me in consent the verbiage, right, no explanation,
all right, but you're not doubting any of the verbiage.
You remember you sent those text messages? Those are yours?

Speaker 1 (01:47:16):
Yeah? Sounds like yeah, yes, yes, those were yours.

Speaker 5 (01:47:20):
Okay, thank you, sir, thank you.

Speaker 15 (01:47:21):
Any questions from the jury so you may step down,
The State may call us next witness.

Speaker 3 (01:47:27):
The State call recalls Heather Carter.

Speaker 15 (01:47:31):
Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take a ten minute
recess at this time. Please be back in the designated
area at two thirty five pm and we will start
promptly at that time, please remember the admonition you were excute,
please be seated. The record will show the presence of
the jury, the defendant and all counsel.

Speaker 12 (01:47:54):
I have a way sting quicker, So we're kindly all.

Speaker 15 (01:47:58):
Flor Smith Lea's come forward to be scorn on your
personal last name Maureen Mbau.

Speaker 12 (01:48:04):
Who is right?

Speaker 2 (01:48:05):
Yea, you do sow them to swear.

Speaker 16 (01:48:06):
The testimony you're about to give will be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing about the truth will help you.

Speaker 4 (01:48:10):
God.

Speaker 2 (01:48:13):
Your name Maureen Smith?

Speaker 12 (01:48:15):
And who do you work for?

Speaker 16 (01:48:17):
I work for the Mesa Police Department's Forensic Services Lab.

Speaker 12 (01:48:20):
And what do you do there?

Speaker 16 (01:48:21):
I'm currently a forensic laton print examiner too, so my
main job duties are to compare layton prints collected from
crime scenes to known ink prints, to compare ink print
to ink prints, and to process evidence.

Speaker 2 (01:48:35):
As part of your duties, do you also have people
come in or do you go to people then take
their fingerprints and affix them, fix them to a sheet
of paper for later usage.

Speaker 14 (01:48:45):
Yes, we do.

Speaker 3 (01:48:46):
Take a look at Exhibit two ninety four.

Speaker 12 (01:48:48):
Is it as part of your work?

Speaker 15 (01:48:51):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:48:53):
And when did you complete that work that's on that paper.

Speaker 16 (01:48:57):
These prints were taken on June's seen two thousand and eight.

Speaker 2 (01:49:01):
And the individual whose prints appear there and that you
took are is that individual in the court today? Yes?

Speaker 14 (01:49:08):
She is.

Speaker 2 (01:49:08):
Tell me where she is seated, what she is worth?

Speaker 16 (01:49:11):
She is seated at the table at the far end.

Speaker 2 (01:49:13):
I'm sorry I can't see what she's wearing, but she
has glasses on your made the record reflect the identification
of the defendant. Yes, and those are what are they
her fingerprints? Are they more than that? Or what?

Speaker 16 (01:49:25):
These are? What we call live scan ten prints. Instead
of using ink, I used a computer system in which
I take the top part of the finger and I
roll it over a clean piece of glass. The computer
takes a digital image of that fingerprint and transports it
directly into the database system.

Speaker 3 (01:49:42):
And that's what you have there.

Speaker 16 (01:49:43):
That's correct.

Speaker 3 (01:49:51):
I move for the admission of Exhibit two ninety.

Speaker 10 (01:49:53):
Four an infection.

Speaker 1 (01:50:00):
Moment you're on it none.

Speaker 15 (01:50:02):
To exhibited two ninety four, US admitted.

Speaker 12 (01:50:05):
Do you speak for us?

Speaker 7 (01:50:06):
Year and exhibit?

Speaker 2 (01:50:08):
Or where were they taken? Were they taken here in
Mesa or somewhere else?

Speaker 16 (01:50:12):
They were taken at Mesa in our main station where
we were located at one thirty North.

Speaker 2 (01:50:17):
Robes And and they do include a name, correct, Yes,
they do. And the backside.

Speaker 3 (01:50:29):
Include the residents of this individual.

Speaker 2 (01:50:32):
Correct, that's correct. And what's the address?

Speaker 16 (01:50:35):
It's three fifty two Pine Street Wayrika, California in ninety six,
zero ninety seven.

Speaker 2 (01:50:41):
Gotta have any other questions? Thank you?

Speaker 15 (01:50:43):
Cross examination?

Speaker 6 (01:50:45):
Briefly, you honored.

Speaker 5 (01:50:48):
As it relates to this fingerprints, what were the circumstances
of you obtaining them?

Speaker 16 (01:50:53):
I was informed actually by Layton print examiner Connor that
Detective Flores in a couple of individuals to be fingerprinted
in that he requested to have their fingerprints not only
put into our live scan system, but also to have
ing prints taken.

Speaker 2 (01:51:09):
So we were doing them as as part of the
case investigation.

Speaker 5 (01:51:13):
Okay, she'd be more specific. Did miss Arias come in
and provide you the opportunity to print her?

Speaker 2 (01:51:19):
Yes? She did?

Speaker 5 (01:51:19):
Okay, thank you?

Speaker 15 (01:51:21):
Any redirect any questions from the jury.

Speaker 5 (01:51:27):
Think you may step down, Biggs, b I G G
S I sure him, you do.

Speaker 1 (01:51:36):
Sw swear the testimony you're about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Speaker 2 (01:51:39):
So help you guy, your name, Sir, Kevin Biggs.

Speaker 5 (01:51:48):
And who do you work for Masa Police Department?

Speaker 2 (01:51:50):
What do you do for them?

Speaker 5 (01:51:52):
I'm a forensic latent print examiner.

Speaker 1 (01:51:54):
Two?

Speaker 3 (01:51:55):
Are you the same Do you do the same sort
of work as Maureen Smith?

Speaker 2 (01:51:58):
Yes? Did you you have occasion to fingerprints? Somebody fu
Uh by the name of Jody Arius?

Speaker 10 (01:52:04):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:52:05):
Is she in the courtroom today?

Speaker 5 (01:52:07):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:52:07):
Tell me where she is seated, what she is worried?

Speaker 19 (01:52:10):
She is seated to the table to my left and
has a black long sleeved shirted jacket on record.

Speaker 2 (01:52:17):
Like the had education of independent Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:52:20):
Uh, take a look at Exhibit two ninety three.

Speaker 2 (01:52:24):
What is this?

Speaker 5 (01:52:38):
These are the major case prints that I took of
miss areas?

Speaker 2 (01:52:43):
And what day did you take them?

Speaker 5 (01:52:45):
On?

Speaker 1 (01:52:45):
Six seventeen?

Speaker 2 (01:52:48):
My question to you is this, Uh, take a look
at exhibit two ninety four. That's this one here and
yours is two ninety three.

Speaker 12 (01:52:59):
What is the difference with you between two ninety four?

Speaker 4 (01:53:01):
Three?

Speaker 5 (01:53:03):
This is the set of prints that was taken well,
this being.

Speaker 2 (01:53:06):
We don't know which, but would that be exhibit two ninety.

Speaker 19 (01:53:09):
Four Exhibit two ninety four, Yes, are there prints that
were taken on the digital computer were digitally collected by
Marine smith.

Speaker 2 (01:53:18):
All right, so they were taken on a computer, right, correct?
What's the difference between that one and the one.

Speaker 6 (01:53:24):
That you took?

Speaker 5 (01:53:27):
Number two ninety four is also a ten print card.

Speaker 19 (01:53:30):
My prints were taken with ink and paper the old
fashioned way, and they are major case prints, so they
include palm prints and joint prints also.

Speaker 3 (01:53:40):
So yours are a little bit more inclusive. Would that
be one difference?

Speaker 2 (01:53:43):
Yes? And yours were taken the old fashioned way with
ink and paper.

Speaker 7 (01:53:47):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:53:49):
Why were you taking yours that way if you already
had the other ones?

Speaker 7 (01:53:53):
Why was that being done?

Speaker 19 (01:53:54):
What's the difference the computer or the eighth assistant that
we had only did the ten prints. There was an
option in our building to have palm prints also, but
they're pretty limiting on.

Speaker 5 (01:54:07):
What they can take.

Speaker 19 (01:54:07):
With the way I did it, I was able to
get all of the rigid detail, including the two joints
of the hand and both edges of the hand, which
the palm.

Speaker 5 (01:54:14):
Print on the APHIS system does not collect, So you had.

Speaker 2 (01:54:19):
More information that was not collected as part of the
APHIS system. Is that right? Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 5 (01:54:25):
Correct? At the time that I took these and the
machine that we were using did not have the option
to collect palm prints. We only had the option to
do the ten prints.

Speaker 2 (01:54:33):
With regard to a fingerprint, can it be dated? For example,
if it's lifted from a place, can it be dated?

Speaker 3 (01:54:40):
In other words, if you.

Speaker 2 (01:54:43):
Identify it, can you then say it was left on
this date at such and such a time.

Speaker 19 (01:54:47):
No, we would have to go back to a time
that it was cleaned or the item was manufactured. But no,
there's no way to date it other than.

Speaker 3 (01:54:53):
That the admission of exhibit.

Speaker 2 (01:55:02):
Any objection.

Speaker 5 (01:55:08):
Is it?

Speaker 2 (01:55:11):
Let's take a look at this and this is the
difference that you're talking about. This is actually done with
ink and pay for correct And in terms of the
information that's provided here, the hip and the.

Speaker 5 (01:55:26):
Weight, who provides that, Miss Areas gave that to me?

Speaker 3 (01:55:32):
And the date of birth? Did she also provide that?

Speaker 10 (01:55:35):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:55:35):
Is it signed by her?

Speaker 4 (01:55:37):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:55:39):
You're talking about how yours has an addition to it?
And take a look at the back of one of them.
What are we looking at here?

Speaker 5 (01:55:49):
That is the left palm print.

Speaker 2 (01:55:52):
And then we have something what is this right here?

Speaker 19 (01:55:55):
That's a left little finger on the front of it.
When I am after rolling the left little finger on
the front, there's not any more space up there. I
felt I needed to roll it again, and so I
rolled it back here on the back and then labeled it.

Speaker 2 (01:56:06):
And what is this over here on the top looks
like just like a smudge.

Speaker 19 (01:56:09):
That's going to be the thinner side of the palm.
I'm sorry, the thumb site overhead the extreme magic I
was talking about the weing collect that we don't get
on the APHIS system.

Speaker 2 (01:56:21):
Is this the left given that this says left, this
is the left pomp correct? Yes, and the one on
the back would be the right palm then right?

Speaker 1 (01:56:30):
Correct?

Speaker 12 (01:56:31):
I don't have any.

Speaker 15 (01:56:32):
Questions, thank you, cross examination?

Speaker 5 (01:56:37):
So where were these prints contained?

Speaker 19 (01:56:40):
At the Masa Police main station at one thirty North
Ropes and in the Layton print unit?

Speaker 5 (01:56:47):
Okay, and miss Arias came in voluntarily, gave you your
prince all the prints you wanted and left?

Speaker 3 (01:56:52):
Is that correct?

Speaker 10 (01:56:53):
Yes?

Speaker 19 (01:56:54):
Okay?

Speaker 5 (01:56:54):
Thank you?

Speaker 15 (01:56:55):
Any redirect, thank you? Any questions from the jury. Think
you may step down, Smith, please take the stand. You
are still in the roath. Do you understand, mister Martinez

(01:57:17):
you're a mareen Smith?

Speaker 12 (01:57:20):
What regard to this case you told us if you
were a late examlers.

Speaker 4 (01:57:23):
What you said.

Speaker 2 (01:57:23):
That's correct. Do you also do the collection of any
biological substances for later testing? Yes, we did, And what
is it that.

Speaker 4 (01:57:33):
You do.

Speaker 16 (01:57:35):
If we're requested, we are able to collect either uh
DNA samples that are unknowns or we are able to
collect DNA samples for known purposes.

Speaker 3 (01:57:45):
With regard to the individual Jordy areas that you previously identified,
did you take any biological samples from her?

Speaker 2 (01:57:53):
Yes? I did. What did you take?

Speaker 16 (01:57:55):
I collected what is called the buckle swab, which is
a swabbing of the inner lining of the of the cheek.
We just gently take a sterile swab and swab the
inside of the cheek cells and collect those into a
secure packaging.

Speaker 2 (01:58:11):
I don't have any other questions.

Speaker 5 (01:58:13):
Examination briefly, you're honor Miss Smiths.

Speaker 12 (01:58:17):
You just asked it.

Speaker 5 (01:58:18):
But earlier that Miss Arius came into the station, she
gave you her prince and departed. I take it the
buckle swab was obtained the same day in the same manner.

Speaker 12 (01:58:26):
Is that correct?

Speaker 15 (01:58:27):
Yes, it was okay, Thank you, any redirect any questions
from the jury. Thank you may step down again. Connor.
You are still un joys. Do you understand?

Speaker 2 (01:58:39):
Yes, I do. Made receive your name please, it's Heather Connor.

Speaker 12 (01:58:45):
Man I said we were here, we were talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:58:49):
Things in number one nine. Do you remember talking about this? Yes,
I do, and specifically with regard to this. What are
we looking at?

Speaker 20 (01:59:00):
This is the west wall of the hallway, that hallway
between the master bedroom and bathroom, and it's showing a
piece of wall that has a square drawn around it.

Speaker 2 (01:59:12):
And you actually seized that square, right, Yes, I did.
Exhibit number two thirty nine, correct, yes, And exhibit number
one we did not look at that, which is a photograph.
What is it that we're looking at here?

Speaker 20 (01:59:29):
What you see in this photograph is a latent palm
impression that has been developed on the wall. So that's
friction ridge skin from the palmer side of your hand.

Speaker 2 (01:59:41):
How was this developed at the site or was it
developed somewhere else? This was developed while we were at
while I was at the scene, and that's why you
decided to take the wall, that's correct. So once you
take it back to the lab, what did you do
with it?

Speaker 20 (01:59:55):
Additional photographs were taken of this, this latent impression in
the laboratory after the wall was seized, why were.

Speaker 2 (02:00:04):
There additional photographs taken?

Speaker 12 (02:00:06):
This regular.

Speaker 20 (02:00:09):
While we were at the scene, photographs were taken of
the wall and the print on the wall. However, it
being that it was in the hallway, it was somewhat
of a tight space with which to work with a
camera and a tripod. So the intent was in case
the photographs that the scene didn't turn out as well
as they might be able to, we could to take
add I could take additional photographs in the laboratory.

Speaker 2 (02:00:31):
In terms of the comparison that may be done later.
Is the comparison then done between the wall or is
it done between the photograph of the wall and the
known fingerprints?

Speaker 20 (02:00:47):
The comparison is done between the photograph of the latent
print and the nomes.

Speaker 2 (02:00:52):
Take a look at Exhibit two ninety two.

Speaker 6 (02:00:56):
What is this?

Speaker 2 (02:01:01):
This is the photograph of the Layton palm print from
the wall. And is it a photograph of this that
we're looking at, which is exhibit number one forty or
is it one? In other words, is that just a
black and white photograph of this or is that a
different photograph?

Speaker 20 (02:01:21):
There were numerous photographs taken of the same ridge detail.
I don't know if it's the exact same photo, but
it is of the same exact ridge detail and surface
we've been.

Speaker 2 (02:01:30):
Looking at Exhibit There is an arrow that there. What
does that mean?

Speaker 20 (02:01:40):
That is indicating the directionality of the print. I'm trying
to orient it on the wall. So the up means
that the wall went up from there.

Speaker 2 (02:01:50):
To the ceiling. Yes, LCV stands for Lugo Crystal Violet
and Impression AD. What is that?

Speaker 5 (02:01:59):
AD?

Speaker 20 (02:02:00):
Was the designator the unique identifier given to this latent
impression within the scene.

Speaker 2 (02:02:07):
Moved for the admission of exhibit two.

Speaker 15 (02:02:13):
Object Exhibit two ninety two is admitted art.

Speaker 2 (02:02:17):
At the what I'm calling the lower right hand corner,
and that would be right here.

Speaker 14 (02:02:24):
What is that?

Speaker 3 (02:02:25):
What are those notations there?

Speaker 20 (02:02:28):
You have my initials HC, my employee ID number which
is one six one sixty six and the date six
twenty six of eight.

Speaker 2 (02:02:39):
And why why is that date on there? That is
the date that this latent print was individualized. And at
the top what is what is that?

Speaker 3 (02:02:51):
One's sixty nine eight?

Speaker 10 (02:02:52):
What is that about?

Speaker 20 (02:02:53):
That is the designator that was assigned by me to
the latent print. The Layton print is now latent impression
one sixty nine A.

Speaker 2 (02:03:04):
Even though down here we have impression AD, it's the
same one it is. And the second page is this
is an exhibit? Is that just the back of it? Yes,
that's the information that was on the that's on the
back of the photograph.

Speaker 3 (02:03:22):
Did you have occasion to compare to ninety two?

Speaker 10 (02:03:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (02:03:33):
First of all Exhibit two ninety four, which just looks just.

Speaker 2 (02:03:38):
Like a ten print card to do that or not? No,
this was not compared to this record.

Speaker 12 (02:03:46):
How about exhibit two ninety three?

Speaker 2 (02:03:48):
Did you work with them? Yes?

Speaker 12 (02:03:52):
What did you do with regard to that?

Speaker 20 (02:03:55):
The Layton palm print was compared to the known impressions
on this exemplar?

Speaker 2 (02:04:01):
And this was the exemplar used in the individualization. And
with regard to Exhibit two ninety two, what are your
what were your findings or what were your conclusions?

Speaker 20 (02:04:13):
Layton Print one sixty nine A was individualized as the
left palm of Jody ann Arius.

Speaker 2 (02:04:19):
Is that the notation that's here on the left that's correct?
Who put that on there? I did? And as we
look at the wall or which is a number twenty nine,
which is the top this poet or this or the
just from right here with the little insignia, may I
see it please? The wall was oriented this way? And

(02:04:49):
where would the fingerprints have been this region?

Speaker 12 (02:04:53):
And in that particular region?

Speaker 3 (02:04:55):
Which which finger which palm print was it?

Speaker 12 (02:04:58):
Which leap of right?

Speaker 21 (02:05:00):
It's the left palm, and can you tell us how
it was on there using your left.

Speaker 20 (02:05:05):
Palm or absolutely, if I may stands it's this region
of the left palm.

Speaker 2 (02:05:19):
Okay, in this direction.

Speaker 12 (02:05:21):
So if we remember our go ahead and beat your
your farm netway.

Speaker 22 (02:05:25):
If we remember our directions, your fingers would then be
in the northerly direction.

Speaker 12 (02:05:29):
If we look at the diagram at the diagram right,
that would be correct, and then the bats would we
find to right?

Speaker 2 (02:05:35):
Yes, thank you. On occasions you mean intown exhibit number
two seventy feet.

Speaker 3 (02:05:59):
Yes, and what is exhibit two seventeen.

Speaker 20 (02:06:02):
This is a scale that was collected as item number
fifteen lb and was just in the bathroom, Yes it was.

Speaker 2 (02:06:09):
Is this the one that has the glass or is
this the one that's the last This has a a
glass like top.

Speaker 3 (02:06:17):
Remember the emission of exhibit two seventeen to seventeen?

Speaker 10 (02:06:20):
Is it.

Speaker 12 (02:06:22):
Was there a batht a that.

Speaker 10 (02:06:25):
Yes, there was and.

Speaker 12 (02:06:29):
Exhibit two twenty seven is that the uh bathmt?

Speaker 2 (02:06:45):
Yes it is? Remember for the admission of exhibit two
twenty seven.

Speaker 10 (02:06:56):
Seven yes, no.

Speaker 15 (02:07:01):
Iggestion if but two two seven isn't it it?

Speaker 16 (02:07:06):
No?

Speaker 4 (02:07:07):
Looking at the.

Speaker 12 (02:07:07):
Photographs, who notice that it was uh on the bed?
Do you remember that there was ser items on end?

Speaker 2 (02:07:13):
And I guess i'll I can't exib it sixty.

Speaker 3 (02:07:17):
Three and sixty four?

Speaker 2 (02:07:18):
You see this uh here? Yes they do?

Speaker 3 (02:07:22):
And exhibit number sixty four.

Speaker 2 (02:07:26):
This right here? Did you collect that? I don't think so?

Speaker 12 (02:07:34):
Think about games that are exhibit number.

Speaker 4 (02:07:42):
Who?

Speaker 1 (02:07:42):
Wow?

Speaker 21 (02:08:00):
H what is it that these were the items that
were collected out of.

Speaker 2 (02:08:17):
The dryer and thinish? So I don't know if you've
I believe we've already moved these into evidence, but uh,
if not, I'll move 'em in again. Two twelve.

Speaker 12 (02:08:40):
Youll not get in im a mover T two Teve
and I had one groups.

Speaker 15 (02:08:46):
Can you tell that again?

Speaker 12 (02:08:51):
It does say all the tack that is uh eddy items?

Speaker 2 (02:08:56):
Exactly What are you talking about with regard to exhibiting?

Speaker 20 (02:09:00):
Well, I don't recall every item in there, but we
went over them on Thursday of last week. There's sheets
another type of sheet item that has buttons on it.
From personal experience, I think I would say it's a
duvet cover, something along those lines, towels and the light.

Speaker 2 (02:09:21):
Let's take a look at Exhibit one of thirty this
area here. Where is this area?

Speaker 20 (02:09:28):
First of all, that is the carpet leading from the
master bedroom right at the entryway to the hallway that
leads to the master bath.

Speaker 3 (02:09:37):
And Exhibit one thirty one shows us.

Speaker 20 (02:09:40):
What that is, showing a bird's eye view of some
of the red stains that's on the carpet. And this
right here, that's the tile in.

Speaker 8 (02:09:47):
The hallway that's exhibit set you.

Speaker 6 (02:10:02):
It.

Speaker 20 (02:10:02):
It's wrapped in butcher paper, but it appears to be
the piece of carpet that was cut out and collected.

Speaker 2 (02:10:07):
This piece of carpet, when you.

Speaker 12 (02:10:08):
Said and said, appears, you know, turns. If you're not sure,
I think the scissors may be there. If they're not, uh,
go ahead and opening future they're enough.

Speaker 2 (02:10:52):
This is the piece of carpet. I can see some
of us standing on the interior fold.

Speaker 12 (02:10:57):
Okay, I you remember the admission of EXI two eleven.
That's another girl, righty.

Speaker 9 (02:11:06):
S one one this time?

Speaker 10 (02:11:07):
Or maybe you haven't look at it.

Speaker 15 (02:11:08):
Why don't you walk up and do so?

Speaker 12 (02:11:09):
Do you moves?

Speaker 20 (02:11:14):
Of course?

Speaker 2 (02:11:17):
No objection that two eleven is admitted, and have you
take the floors? Will help you? Uh could be put
out so that we can take a look at it.

Speaker 10 (02:11:26):
Please?

Speaker 12 (02:11:28):
Is there any but your paper or anything available there?

Speaker 2 (02:11:30):
No, we don't have. If you could hold it up,
I think so that we should all look at it
that way. And ma'am, if you take a look at

(02:11:54):
the screen over there, which is one thirty one, can
you see it behind you or they're on the side. Yeah,
you see this area here? Yeah, the tail and you
see that the tile is this way. What's in this direction?
Is the bathroom in this direction? That's cracked? Can you
orient it with that on the top?

Speaker 3 (02:12:13):
So this is what we're This is how it was
a the house with this being.

Speaker 2 (02:12:17):
The northerly direction of it. Yes, you could. Uh, I'm sorry,
seven that's cracked.

Speaker 12 (02:12:24):
If you could uh place it in its container?

Speaker 4 (02:12:27):
Oh, bring it back?

Speaker 9 (02:12:28):
Yes, cosey.

Speaker 15 (02:13:03):
Cross examination.

Speaker 1 (02:13:09):
Thank you.

Speaker 15 (02:13:13):
Ms Connor.

Speaker 5 (02:13:13):
Do you still have the gloves with you there? Yes?
I do, Okay, I believe last week one of the
things you did is you testified about the contents of
the washing machine. Do you recall that?

Speaker 12 (02:13:30):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (02:13:30):
Okay? And we saw well several things in there. But
one of the things we saw was a camera, correct, yes, okay.
And the other thing we saw was various articles, the
towels and clothing that sort of thing. Let me draw
your extension.

Speaker 12 (02:13:51):
Backs you.

Speaker 5 (02:13:54):
Well, here has previously been marked and entered.

Speaker 23 (02:13:57):
As Exhibit two six team, and then approach your energy, ma'am,
I fee could be.

Speaker 5 (02:14:11):
So kind of ani if I would call correctly.

Speaker 12 (02:14:17):
Last week you testified.

Speaker 5 (02:14:20):
As you believed the towel in that honor had been bleached.

Speaker 6 (02:14:26):
Is that correct?

Speaker 20 (02:14:27):
If I recall I was asked if I was familiar
with what bleach would do to an item of clothing
and whether that's resembled what I was familiar with something
along those lines.

Speaker 5 (02:14:36):
Okay, And you I think you gave us the opinion
that you believe that that towel had incurred bleach. Is
that correct or had encountered bleach, perhaps had been beached.

Speaker 2 (02:14:50):
I don't know if it has been bleached.

Speaker 20 (02:14:53):
There's certainly from personal experience knowing what bleach does to
close it resembles what bleach would do to an item
of clothing, if you could.

Speaker 5 (02:15:01):
Do me a favor, if you could look through take
them out if need be, look through them and see
if you see any other item that has any evidence
of being bleached or having contact with bleach? Did you
do that for us? Certainly? And Miss Connor, if you

(02:15:56):
recall last week that was the item you believe had been.

Speaker 2 (02:15:59):
Bleached, has the same appearance as what bleach may appear.

Speaker 5 (02:16:04):
Yes, and forgive me. I know you probably don't recall
your exact words, and I don't either saw it, but
that's a yes, okay. And if you could look through
any of the other items, and you're holding a sock,
is there any appearance of bleach on that sock?

Speaker 20 (02:16:22):
There are orange there's orange coloration to an otherwise very
dark sock.

Speaker 5 (02:16:31):
And you're holding up another sock. Is there any evidence
a bleach on that item?

Speaker 2 (02:16:35):
Certainly an orange coloration that's different than the remainder of
the sock.

Speaker 5 (02:16:38):
Okay, there's different coloration on the shirt.

Speaker 2 (02:16:42):
But I don't know the cause of that.

Speaker 5 (02:16:45):
And I believe you testified last week that that was
a tie dyed shirt, that that appeared to be a
tie d eyed shirt. Correct. I don't recall that okay,
would you agree with that assessment today?

Speaker 2 (02:16:57):
It certainly could be okay?

Speaker 5 (02:17:03):
And ma'am, I see her going through many items? Are
you not seeing? Could you just hold them? You seem
to be shuffling through them. Could you just take a
good look and make sure that no is Is there
any indication of bleach on that sock?

Speaker 8 (02:17:20):
Not that I seek?

Speaker 5 (02:17:23):
And do you have another sock? Is there any indication
of bleach on that? No, sir, okay. And the undergarments.

Speaker 20 (02:17:37):
I can't speak to be difficult to tell in don't
appear to be anything on the sock.

Speaker 5 (02:17:47):
And the shorts. Is there any appearance of bleach on those?

Speaker 2 (02:17:51):
Not that I see? And the T shirt you hold,
not that I seem Do you like me to continue?

Speaker 5 (02:18:01):
Well? Is that all the items?

Speaker 2 (02:18:02):
Man? Or was there there are a few additional items
in here?

Speaker 10 (02:18:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (02:18:05):
Please? I don't see anything on this on this sock correct?

Speaker 2 (02:18:15):
And when the cursory glands, I don't see anything obvious
on this entire And.

Speaker 5 (02:18:20):
Is that all the entire contents? There another wide item
to which we could not determine that.

Speaker 1 (02:18:28):
Would be correct fare or not.

Speaker 20 (02:18:32):
Without going through every single sock that I believe is
everything that's in here. I would have to pull them
out one by one.

Speaker 5 (02:18:38):
Otherwise I understand. But no indication of bleach on those
all those items, correct, not during this cursory look now, okay,
thank you.

Speaker 1 (02:18:52):
If I'm the approach you can run.

Speaker 5 (02:18:54):
Now, I'm going to show you what's been marked this
exhibit to thirteen and entered to excuse me as a
hibit two thirteen.

Speaker 12 (02:19:05):
And before you take a litit at, I just wanted.

Speaker 5 (02:19:09):
To ask you question about Exhibit two sixteen. All those
items were in the same load of wash. Is that correct?

Speaker 2 (02:19:22):
Was that item to sixteen?

Speaker 5 (02:19:24):
Yes, the one you just looked at, that was all
what was taken out of that same load of wash
when you were there at the crime scene? Correct?

Speaker 2 (02:19:31):
Yes it was.

Speaker 5 (02:19:33):
And just to further clarify two you mentioned, I believe
that there was a biological unit that collected items of
biological evidence. Correct.

Speaker 20 (02:19:49):
Members of the biology unit of the Forensic Services Section
responded to the scene and helped me process it. They
identified certain stains in other areas the house and performed
preliminary testing.

Speaker 2 (02:20:02):
I did all the collection of the biological evidence.

Speaker 5 (02:20:05):
But if my understanding was that the biological unit or
the people that do the biological testing did not test
that Is that correct? Is that what you I believe
that's what you told us last week, but I just
want to make sure that's correct.

Speaker 20 (02:20:18):
I don't have any work in the biology unit. I
wouldn't be able to tell you what items were tested
and not.

Speaker 5 (02:20:24):
Okay, but to your knowledge, that wasn't immediately tested at
the scene or when you collected it.

Speaker 20 (02:20:33):
The type of testing that was performed at the scene
was preliminary testing on certain stains that we found in
some areas at the home. The items within the washing
machine were not tested at the scene, okay.

Speaker 5 (02:20:47):
And then if you could be so kind as to
open up what's beIN marked Exhibit two three?

Speaker 8 (02:21:21):
We have spilled some water, okay.

Speaker 5 (02:21:34):
And could uh? And that is just that is the
camera bag correct?

Speaker 20 (02:21:38):
This is a camera bag that was collected from the
loft area of the residents.

Speaker 5 (02:21:42):
Yes, inside that bag was there a strap associated with
the camera.

Speaker 2 (02:21:52):
There is a strap inside.

Speaker 20 (02:21:53):
I don't know to what what camera it would be associated,
but there is a strap, okay.

Speaker 5 (02:21:58):
And it looks like a though some of the letters
may be cut off, it looks like there's a brand
on that strap.

Speaker 6 (02:22:03):
Is that.

Speaker 2 (02:22:06):
It shows sony.

Speaker 5 (02:22:08):
Okay, and is that the only strap in.

Speaker 2 (02:22:10):
There inside the bag? Yes, there's a strap on the
bag itself. Moment you're on it having for her, thank
you any redirect manam. With regard to Exhibit two sixteen

(02:22:34):
and what I'm gonna call the tied guy T shirt?

Speaker 12 (02:22:37):
Do you know what size it was?

Speaker 2 (02:22:40):
I would please?

Speaker 10 (02:22:53):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (02:22:57):
Finished putting that away?

Speaker 1 (02:22:58):
Okay?

Speaker 12 (02:23:28):
What's that?

Speaker 2 (02:23:29):
This is marked an M for medium?

Speaker 12 (02:23:31):
How about the how do what.

Speaker 1 (02:23:36):
That is?

Speaker 5 (02:23:36):
March L large?

Speaker 4 (02:23:40):
Ma'am?

Speaker 2 (02:23:40):
You also were asking, or we were asked about who
collected the biological evidence at the scene.

Speaker 3 (02:23:45):
Do you remember that?

Speaker 2 (02:23:46):
Yes, I do, with regard to when I'm looking at
the photographics.

Speaker 3 (02:23:51):
Of it when forty the fingerprints.

Speaker 5 (02:23:53):
About the collection at in the Washington Machine, I.

Speaker 2 (02:23:57):
Think he was asking her about the collection at the scene.

Speaker 6 (02:23:59):
And how it was.

Speaker 8 (02:24:00):
That's what he asked to.

Speaker 15 (02:24:04):
Council press.

Speaker 2 (02:24:06):
Collection of many biological substances at the scene. Did you
do that?

Speaker 5 (02:24:11):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (02:24:11):
I did. With regard to this photograph involving the palm
print number one forty, did you collect or check this
area for biological subject.

Speaker 20 (02:24:21):
This particular area the piece of wall containing the print
was cut out and there was testing performed after the facts,
but not at the scene.

Speaker 2 (02:24:35):
Okay, so it wasn't done at the scene. It was
done somewhere else. That's correct, And you didn't do that though, right,
I did not. I don't have any other.

Speaker 15 (02:24:41):
Questions, mister Jeremy, no question, any questions. Looks like we
do have a question from the jury. Any other questions
from the jury for this witness Council, Prison Press. It's
kind of the jury has some questions for you. Why

(02:25:03):
was the towel not tested for bleaching?

Speaker 20 (02:25:08):
I don't know of any testing that we could perform
at the crime lab that would test for bleach. But
I don't work in the other units. I don't know
the answer to that question.

Speaker 15 (02:25:21):
Was there a wrist or next strap on the camera
in the Washington.

Speaker 20 (02:25:27):
Would it be possible to see the photograph of the
item that we've seen prior, mister Martinez.

Speaker 2 (02:25:39):
Zib twelve, Exhibit thirteen, Exhibit fourteen, Exhibit fifteen, Yeah, Exhibit sixteen.
It does not appear that there is a strap on
that camera.

Speaker 15 (02:26:00):
Is every inch all surfaces tested for prints?

Speaker 2 (02:26:06):
No, it is not.

Speaker 15 (02:26:08):
How are decisions made to test or not test a
given area? For example, were the walls dusted from floor
to ceiling.

Speaker 20 (02:26:18):
The walls were not dusted from floor to ceiling. A
determination is made based on training and experience of the
latent examiners and crime scene investigators that are at the
scene regarding what areas will be processed for latent prints.
In this case, along the hallway walls, for example, there
was a white swath of the wall that was tested.

(02:26:39):
I would estimate from knee height to approximately neck chest
level the areas that would most likely be touched on
a with regular handling or movement around the house. It's
not feasible for us to be able to process every
inch of the house from floor to ceiling. So we

(02:27:01):
examine the scene and determine what areas are going to
be the most probative and likely to yield latent prints.

Speaker 15 (02:27:09):
What type of key is needed to unlock the master
bedroom door. I don't know that was the knife that
was used in this crime recovered at the scene.

Speaker 20 (02:27:23):
I don't know that either there were knives that were
collected from the scene. I cannot speak to whether or
not they were involved.

Speaker 15 (02:27:31):
Follow up from the state looks like we have an
additional question. Also, please approach as connor how long will
a print last on a surface if it is not
washed or disturbed.

Speaker 20 (02:27:43):
The answer is possibly indefinitely. There is no way to
date a latent impression. You can consider things such as
the data manufacture of an item such as a soda can. Obviously,
the print could not have been left before the soda
can was made or created. In the same regard, if
you have a window, for example, and it's been washed,

(02:28:05):
you can assume in some cases that any prints that
are on that would be since the last washing.

Speaker 2 (02:28:11):
If the washing was very thorough.

Speaker 20 (02:28:14):
Depending on the type of residue that leaves that print,
it can last for a very long time.

Speaker 2 (02:28:20):
An you follow up from the state yes with regard
to what if a fingerprint is left behind?

Speaker 12 (02:28:27):
If so many says, for example, hypothetically I.

Speaker 2 (02:28:31):
Was there on June fourth, whatever year, and I killed
this individual, and I hadn't been there before that, since
before May, and I haven't been there since, then, would
you be able to date that fingerprint? I am not
able to date any fingerprints.

Speaker 12 (02:28:52):
Would you be able to test when it was left?

Speaker 2 (02:28:54):
Given me out of information?

Speaker 12 (02:28:55):
You use the example of the soda camp.

Speaker 2 (02:28:57):
Would you in it or not date it? Or was
when it was left? In that hypothetical, will you repeat
the hypothetical please. Hypothetical is have a killing and you
have an individual who says I did the killing on
June fourth, and they haven't been there for months and

(02:29:18):
haven't been there in months after that. With regard to
a fingerprint, let's say that's collected from a wall, would
you then be able to say, well, I believe, based
on the fact that I found a fingerprint and other information,
my opinion is the fingerprint was left on such and
such a date in that hypothetical of June four. It

(02:29:41):
depends on other circumstances within the case.

Speaker 20 (02:29:43):
If I have information regarding what potential type of residue
or substance a print is left, and there's enough information,
I may be able to guess the assume that.

Speaker 2 (02:29:57):
You have the information that stuff behind guard to exhibit
one important So that's the information you can ate.

Speaker 20 (02:30:05):
The latent impression that was called one sixty nine A
when it was compared or impression AD was developed with
a chemical that we use in c situations where we
believe there may have been a print that is left
in blood, for example, because it does not it does
not react with the normal constituents of fingerprint residue.

Speaker 2 (02:30:29):
It's possible to draw.

Speaker 20 (02:30:31):
Some conclusion, but I still wouldn't be able to give
you an exact dating of a print.

Speaker 3 (02:30:36):
What conclusions can you drop.

Speaker 5 (02:30:40):
Object you're on this coast Beyond the scope of the question, several.

Speaker 20 (02:30:48):
This particular chemical was used to process that area of
the wall because we saw a great deal of red stain.
Because I saw a great deal of red staining, and
that's that area. My belief that it was possible that
there could be a print on the wall. All that
could be in a biological substance such as blood. I
use this chemical because of that, with the belief that

(02:31:08):
if any princes were developed with the chemical, they may
have been left at the time of the crime.

Speaker 15 (02:31:14):
Everything else, mister Jeremy, any other questions from the jury,
thank you. You may step down. Mister Martinez.

Speaker 2 (02:31:24):
The state calls a step on florus to the stamp.

Speaker 15 (02:31:29):
Detective. You were still under oath.

Speaker 2 (02:31:30):
Do you understand, yes, I do your name at.

Speaker 12 (02:31:37):
The person previous testified in.

Speaker 2 (02:31:39):
The case, right, yes, you're thea station right, yes, And
previously we discussed the conversation that you had with the
defendant telephonically on June tenth, two thousand and eight.

Speaker 1 (02:31:51):
Crack.

Speaker 2 (02:31:52):
Yes, did you also have a conversation with her after that?

Speaker 5 (02:31:55):
Yes? I did.

Speaker 3 (02:31:56):
Did you have a conversation with her on June twenty five,
two thousand.

Speaker 5 (02:32:00):
And eight, Yes, I did. That would have been approximately
two weeks later.

Speaker 12 (02:32:03):
Correct?

Speaker 5 (02:32:04):
Correct?

Speaker 3 (02:32:04):
How what was the purpose of this second call?

Speaker 2 (02:32:08):
Follow up questions?

Speaker 5 (02:32:10):
And we had.

Speaker 24 (02:32:13):
Gone through with the investigation and more information had come
in at that point.

Speaker 2 (02:32:18):
And did you initiate this call or was this also
in response to her calling it?

Speaker 24 (02:32:23):
I don't remember exactly, but I remember her calling me
a few times and I was trying to get a
hold of her as well, along with calling other people
at that time.

Speaker 2 (02:32:31):
Was this tape recorded, Yes it was.

Speaker 12 (02:32:34):
And during this conversation did you have more pointed.

Speaker 2 (02:32:37):
Questions about her relationship with mister alex.

Speaker 13 (02:32:39):
Ed Yes, I wanted to clarify the Really, ladies and gentlemen,
we have about two or three minutes here if you
would like to stand and stretch how they met.

Speaker 2 (02:32:57):
Did you address that issue? Would on June twenty five,
two thousand and eight.

Speaker 12 (02:33:03):
Calumny, Yes, I did show you Exhibit number.

Speaker 3 (02:33:09):
For ten for purposes of record keeping.

Speaker 20 (02:33:12):
This is cle.

Speaker 2 (02:33:14):
And you've seen it before.

Speaker 12 (02:33:16):
We came here today.

Speaker 5 (02:33:16):
Friend.

Speaker 2 (02:33:17):
Yes, I did more for the admission of exhibit number
three ten because I'm still reviewing the episode.

Speaker 11 (02:33:26):
That will take a moment ye.

Speaker 2 (02:33:31):
Is admitted.

Speaker 7 (02:33:33):
How long did you could actually know each other?

Speaker 10 (02:33:36):
We met in September of two thousand and six at
the Enjine Brands that Appreciate. Yeah, and that was the
Prepellegal International Convention where tens of thousand.

Speaker 17 (02:33:48):
People don't And when did you guys actually start dating?

Speaker 11 (02:33:52):
Not for a while.

Speaker 10 (02:33:53):
We met in September. The following weekend he invited me
to church, and the following Wednesday. At that Sunday he
game in copy of the Book of Mormons and I
started reading it. I got baptized November twenty six. We
would talk a lot, I mean not a lot, and
we kind of had like a thing, and there was
definitely an attraction and an interest, but we weren't officially
dating until about February of two thousand and seven. It

(02:34:16):
was Good Briesday, and I think a string of events
sort of pushed that together. Travis has kind of a commitment.

Speaker 2 (02:34:26):
So Lea, I CAUs you could say, well, did you
then discuss with her of the brand Yes, I want
to show you. Let me say that three O nine
cet number nine, and is that the one that discusses that. Yes,
this conversation was quite lazy, wasn't it.

Speaker 5 (02:34:48):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (02:34:48):
It was.

Speaker 2 (02:34:48):
Was it approximately an hour and forty five minutes right
about that I remember the edition.

Speaker 15 (02:34:53):
Was Ojos brandow Is admitted.

Speaker 11 (02:35:01):
All down here.

Speaker 10 (02:35:03):
No, I didn't know down actually until June, which was
right about the time we broke up, ironically.

Speaker 17 (02:35:08):
In June of two thousand and seventy.

Speaker 11 (02:35:10):
You guys broke up soon after.

Speaker 10 (02:35:11):
Yeah, we worked up that up at same time.

Speaker 12 (02:35:16):
Did you also asked her about the reason for the uh,
right up?

Speaker 6 (02:35:21):
Yes, I did.

Speaker 12 (02:35:24):
Did you look at the exhibit number two ninety states
we just cut twenty two?

Speaker 5 (02:35:30):
Get got it?

Speaker 2 (02:35:32):
Remember the ad mission of that exhibit Club twenty two.

Speaker 15 (02:35:34):
No, che Ny sixty is admitted, I.

Speaker 10 (02:35:40):
Didn't realized just before where that the other guy wasn't faithful.
And there's like a distinctive gut feeling that you just
have and that I've noticed, and because I've been really
just where they were faith at least to my knowledge,
they were totally faithful, and that feeling this isn't there,
and so I had this feeling of Travis, and I
gently asked him about it. He got really upset and
he was like, he's.

Speaker 9 (02:36:00):
Like, no, there's nothing there.

Speaker 10 (02:36:01):
I don't worry about it. And I knew he was
on his phone texting a lot, and I knew he
was texting these girls, and I was like, I was like, well,
are you what about your text message? He's like, look,
I can be flirtatious, but there's nothing going on. And
I said, okay. So this was last year, I think
in June, and one day he was taken a nap
and I felt, this is why I lost This is

(02:36:21):
one of the reasons we lost all of our trusts.
I just I shouldn't have done this. But I grabbed
his phone and I looked at his text messages and
I found there were tons of girls that I'd never
heard of. And I knew that he knew a lot
of people from the business, so I didn't worry too
much about it. But what bothered me was there were
not only were some sortaceous like I had suspected, which
bothered me, but it wasn't necessarily a crime, but there

(02:36:44):
were plenty of a There were like plans like things
like well, where do you want to meet? Well, I
don't know where. It's the best place for work, the
best place wherever, the best place for us to make
out it, you know, And I was like, what, Oh
my gosh. You know we've been dating for a few
months this point, and he always said, well, we're not
dating anybody else, And to him that was I think

(02:37:05):
reasonable enough, because I think in his mind he was
making out with other girls, but he wasn't dating them,
was okay. And the only reason I think that's true
is because of what we continue to do while he
was dating life. And I didn't realize that either, So
I confronted him about it. Actually I didn't confront them
the first I should have been an adult without it
in confront of him, But I held it in for
a few weeks and then it all came out and
that's when.

Speaker 2 (02:37:25):
We broke up.

Speaker 10 (02:37:27):
And so I just realized that I didn't feel like
I could trust him fully to benogous, and I don't
think that he could trust me fully to not get
back in his phone somebody and then try to find
something out. After she.

Speaker 12 (02:37:45):
Moved here to made in June. As she indicated after
the breakout, did you.

Speaker 2 (02:37:51):
Ask her what she did here or kind of work
was that she did here?

Speaker 5 (02:37:56):
I believe she was waitressing just.

Speaker 2 (02:38:00):
And did you discuss it with her on the table?

Speaker 14 (02:38:03):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (02:38:03):
Take a look at exhibit three away, it's clip number ten.

Speaker 3 (02:38:07):
And did you review it before coming to court?

Speaker 2 (02:38:10):
Yes?

Speaker 11 (02:38:10):
Clip ten?

Speaker 2 (02:38:11):
And is this the one that deals with this issue
about what she did when she moved to Mason?

Speaker 3 (02:38:17):
Yes, I moved for the admission.

Speaker 7 (02:38:20):
Of exhibit three away.

Speaker 11 (02:38:22):
Okay, Yeah, the time you were down here just kind.

Speaker 7 (02:38:27):
Of hard.

Speaker 4 (02:38:29):
Work.

Speaker 10 (02:38:30):
I yeah, I guess I figured, you know, like NASA,
like the Mormon Land of Opportunity on it.

Speaker 2 (02:38:39):
And with regard to what she didn't twenty of the
time she was here and came out here in June
in til Abra to she.

Speaker 12 (02:38:48):
Moved, did you and she discuss what she did?

Speaker 7 (02:38:50):
Then?

Speaker 15 (02:38:51):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (02:38:53):
You can look at exhibit three or six, clip number twelve.

Speaker 2 (02:38:56):
And is that clip describe that fortunate enough the conversation, yes,
moving the emiciently Exhibit three or six clip numbers.

Speaker 6 (02:39:07):
Well, No.

Speaker 15 (02:39:08):
Six is admitted.

Speaker 25 (02:39:13):
Around town doing your thing till April or so, I
think you love.

Speaker 10 (02:39:18):
Yeah, I hung around. I was in the university sixth
ward and went there. He was in his Desert Ridge
ward and we didn't live that far apart, So I
mean I was over there a lot, not not a
lot lot because he had his own social circle from
this church that I didn't really want to interact with

(02:39:38):
because I said this, maybe there's a little bit awkward
just there because of Labath and because of Atlanta and.

Speaker 12 (02:39:44):
Oh that's right.

Speaker 2 (02:39:47):
During the time that they were broken up between June
and April, did you then also talk to her.

Speaker 12 (02:39:52):
About the type of relationship that they had?

Speaker 2 (02:39:56):
Yes, Exhibit number three or five. We just put thirteen
an exhibit three twelve.

Speaker 12 (02:40:09):
We just clipped number five.

Speaker 3 (02:40:10):
Did you listen to these before you came?

Speaker 2 (02:40:12):
And does that describe their relationship while they were broken up?

Speaker 5 (02:40:18):
Yes?

Speaker 12 (02:40:20):
I moved for the admission of Exhibits.

Speaker 2 (02:40:22):
Three or five and three twelve.

Speaker 15 (02:40:25):
Jo Hibit three oh five and three twelve.

Speaker 12 (02:40:30):
There is.

Speaker 2 (02:40:34):
You mentioned it.

Speaker 11 (02:40:34):
I mean, obviously you guys dated before.

Speaker 4 (02:40:37):
Yeah, we did.

Speaker 10 (02:40:37):
Dad.

Speaker 17 (02:40:39):
We're kind of just still really good friends, but not
not romantically seeing.

Speaker 10 (02:40:45):
Each other anymore, not exactly. We boke at left, Yeah,
and I would say there was there was certainly a
romantic side to it, you could say, or an instant.

Speaker 1 (02:40:58):
Side to it.

Speaker 10 (02:41:00):
And uh, we weren't exactly on the path and marriage
anything like that, and we both knew that.

Speaker 17 (02:41:10):
Yeah, some people have some unpleasant stuff to say about you.

Speaker 25 (02:41:16):
And I don't know why.

Speaker 17 (02:41:18):
I mean, I talked to you anything like a great person,
and you know, they're just saying that you were kind
of obsessive after the breakup and things like that with what.

Speaker 12 (02:41:28):
Was going on really make them think that.

Speaker 10 (02:41:30):
The only thing I can think of and I realized
that is because I was at his house a lot.
But I didn't go to his house unless I was
invited over, unless he knew I was coming over. He
would send me chext messages late at night saying, hey,
I'm getting sleepy dot dot dot and vs dot dot dot,
and that was like that became like my cue. That
became like our code words for I'm falling asleep, you

(02:41:52):
can come over now, and speaking of my room and like, yeah,
that kind of thing.

Speaker 25 (02:41:54):
And so that would happen a lot, and I I mean,
I don't want to make this unpleasant or anything, but
I mean, was there still a sexual relationship going on
after that?

Speaker 4 (02:42:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 12 (02:42:07):
There was.

Speaker 6 (02:42:10):
Good.

Speaker 12 (02:42:13):
Did you been discuss she's been.

Speaker 2 (02:42:15):
Out there since the breakup In June. Did you discuss
for leaving in April or the last time that she
was at Visdam's house.

Speaker 17 (02:42:23):
Where she indicated, Oh that is did yeah, and take.

Speaker 2 (02:42:28):
A look at exhibit number three or four, that's clip
number fourteen. Did you review it before.

Speaker 11 (02:42:33):
You came here?

Speaker 6 (02:42:34):
And is that what?

Speaker 1 (02:42:34):
This is?

Speaker 2 (02:42:35):
What it indicates? Yes, fourteen I removed for the admission
of exhibit number three or four.

Speaker 10 (02:42:42):
Three or four is admitted at his house.

Speaker 17 (02:42:45):
Was in April when you left?

Speaker 10 (02:42:48):
Yeah, it was apriling since I had my friend Rachel
that originally moved on and gave me a futon to sleupon,
and I gave that back about a week we can
have prior to moving for her and her husband came
out with his truck and they love to do that
because they did were just lending it to me and
I didn't want to move it, so they came and
got it, and I didn't have a bed, and he

(02:43:08):
was like, you know, you just come to stay with me.
So I pretty much stayed there for the last week left.

Speaker 25 (02:43:16):
Guys.

Speaker 17 (02:43:16):
Roommate said something about you, you know, the last day
you had a U haul and you were leaving, and
he had stopped by to say goodbye or something.

Speaker 10 (02:43:24):
Yeah, I had the U haul and I was already there,
but I had parked it around the corner because it
was huge and I had a calm my car on
the back of it, so I couldn't just park it
right out in front of the house. So there's a
there's a little uh you go just half his house
around the corner. I v hall parked there.

Speaker 25 (02:43:41):
It's like, oh, yeah, do you remember what day April
it was?

Speaker 10 (02:43:46):
I don't. I'm going to say I keep thinking the ninth,
but before you quote me on that, I can. I
can check.

Speaker 6 (02:43:52):
But towards the beginning of April, yeah, it was like
more towards the middle, but it was already with maybe
towards the beginning, yeah, because originally I was supposed to
leave early April, like EFL first, like a little a
threeful fools, but I.

Speaker 10 (02:44:07):
Ended up seeing another four or five days.

Speaker 22 (02:44:09):
It was like, yeah, him, did you then discuss with
her the purchase by mister Alexander the camera? Yes, I did,
and does Exhibit three or two clip sixteen, Exhibit three
or one clip seventeen deal with.

Speaker 3 (02:44:33):
The purchase of the camera.

Speaker 2 (02:44:35):
And her role in that purchase. Yes, I remember the
admission of exhibits three on one and three or two three,
one and three of two arts.

Speaker 15 (02:44:47):
This is number.

Speaker 10 (02:44:51):
Yeah, I have a want of pictures.

Speaker 17 (02:44:52):
That actually just bought a He had just purchased the camera.

Speaker 9 (02:44:56):
Yeah, I remember that.

Speaker 11 (02:44:57):
I mean we found the box and the house and everything.

Speaker 17 (02:45:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (02:45:00):
He did you help him buy that?

Speaker 10 (02:45:02):
Or I did? Yeah, I was, I was living here,
but he called me for uh advice and I was
on the phone with him.

Speaker 11 (02:45:08):
That I saw somebody who him before I bought a camera.

Speaker 10 (02:45:11):
Yeah, and I guess since I was photographer. He texted
me and he was like, what do you think of
this camera?

Speaker 14 (02:45:17):
And I texted him back, well what about this?

Speaker 10 (02:45:18):
And finally I was like, just call me. This is
too complicated. So he called me and he was going over.
I was like, asked for this, And so he was
asking the sales rep, well what about this dismas and
where the flash located? And make a pixels in the
brand of like don't get anythy Kodak, you know, just
different things. So eventually he settled on I don't remember
what he got, but it was it sounded like it
was a really nice camera and.

Speaker 12 (02:45:42):
He did it three over.

Speaker 11 (02:45:46):
Do you remember when he got that camera.

Speaker 15 (02:45:50):
People.

Speaker 10 (02:45:51):
Maybe I know it was after I moved. It could
have been in May, could have been in May. I
know it was after I moved up here because I
was I was here while I.

Speaker 12 (02:45:59):
Was on someone with him.

Speaker 11 (02:46:01):
You never got to see the camera then or anything.

Speaker 25 (02:46:04):
No, And I'm trying to remember, Well, we need to
read that maskings because we found this camera and you know,
it's pretty.

Speaker 17 (02:46:11):
Much ruined and we didn't know why.

Speaker 26 (02:46:13):
Oh I can't you know, discuss why, but you know
how it's growing, but you know, we just it's we
just don't find it. We have no idea why somebody would,
you know, destroying his camera. And I wonder if you
could describe it to me. But obviously you haven't seen it.

Speaker 17 (02:46:28):
You've never touched I've never seen it.

Speaker 16 (02:46:31):
No.

Speaker 10 (02:46:32):
I think I'm thinking there's a picture of him on
Facebook where he took a picture of himself in the mirror,
and I think that's his camera. So, I mean, I
can't tell what it is though, because the picture isn't
really sharp and it's a small resolution. But there's a
picture of him on his profile picture.

Speaker 12 (02:46:45):
On Facebook's Okay, in terms of the un second two.

Speaker 10 (02:46:54):
Thousand eight and you then try to talk to her
about that and.

Speaker 2 (02:47:00):
The trips as it began and when she was on
Tuesday nine, when she spoke with as well as whether
or not she talked to mister Alexander.

Speaker 9 (02:47:10):
On a Tuesday. Huh you think that's that her?

Speaker 2 (02:47:12):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (02:47:13):
I did.

Speaker 2 (02:47:13):
Any Exhibits three thirteen, three sixteen the two ninety nine,
which are clips four one and nineteen, respectively. Are those
eclips where you discussed this issue of her trip and
her contact with the victim?

Speaker 12 (02:47:31):
Yeah? Do you have some of exhibits three.

Speaker 3 (02:47:32):
Thirteen, three sixteen and twoday in object.

Speaker 15 (02:47:38):
Three th thirteen, three sixteen, and two ninety nine are.

Speaker 2 (02:47:44):
Let's listen to Exhibit three sixteen for.

Speaker 24 (02:47:49):
Calling Jody areas it's uh six twenty five O eight
and eleven O five hours DR two thousand eight one
six one zero eight.

Speaker 6 (02:47:59):
Four four.

Speaker 25 (02:48:12):
Hello, Hello Jody, Nice to take the floors.

Speaker 17 (02:48:17):
Pretty good?

Speaker 12 (02:48:18):
All right, just a good time for you.

Speaker 10 (02:48:22):
Sorry, I'm sorry to a bad reception?

Speaker 11 (02:48:25):
Is this a good time for you to talk?

Speaker 4 (02:48:28):
Yeah?

Speaker 10 (02:48:28):
This, I'm sorry.

Speaker 15 (02:48:29):
Yeah, this is fine.

Speaker 10 (02:48:29):
I'm just driving for a spot where okay, okay.

Speaker 1 (02:48:32):
Sorry, got you driving?

Speaker 11 (02:48:33):
Hope, I'm descriveing.

Speaker 7 (02:48:35):
That's Okay, Yeah, all right.

Speaker 17 (02:48:39):
Hey, the reason I wanted to talk to you is
just to kind of figure out what was going on
in the week just prior to when we when we
found Travis, because we're not we're still not sure what they,
you know, this incident happened.

Speaker 11 (02:48:53):
We're trying to figure out, you know, and who had
contact with them. And I know I talk to you,
you know, a couple.

Speaker 17 (02:48:59):
Of weeks ago about what was going on, but it
was kind of brief, and I was just trying to
get to everybody.

Speaker 25 (02:49:05):
Who yeah, a SERI or whatever, But can you tell
me what was going on?

Speaker 17 (02:49:09):
Let's just say starting on Monday. I think it was
the second.

Speaker 11 (02:49:14):
Second, if you when you had contact with them or
the last.

Speaker 10 (02:49:18):
Yeah, I think I know that I talked to him
early Monday morning, which would have I was just up
late Sunday night, for example, and I probably talked to
him it may have been a good forty five minutes
that that morning, and we were just talking about.

Speaker 2 (02:49:38):
How he was.

Speaker 14 (02:49:39):
He had a conversation with another person about Courtony Eakley,
and they were it was a really good conversation, and I.

Speaker 10 (02:49:44):
Know he was just talking a lot about what was
said there, and I think we probably talked to him
about four in the morning. I say, yeah, we were.
He was hide out, I'm a hideout.

Speaker 14 (02:49:54):
And it wasn't a really long coNP Like we've had
conversations that have blasted hours and hours, but this one
was probably only I want to say, forty five minutes.

Speaker 2 (02:50:01):
It may have been longer.

Speaker 10 (02:50:03):
I guess I could check. And that was late at night,
well technically it was early Monday morning. That was in
the second So yeah, that was primarily what that one
consisted of. And you know, he knew I was taking
a road trip that week, and he was kind of
guilty me because I wasn't going to Arizona. I was
going to Utah.

Speaker 17 (02:50:23):
Well nice in Arizona as well.

Speaker 10 (02:50:26):
It was the primary reason, and I didn't tell Travis FI,
but the primary reason I was going there was to
meet somebody. And you know, we weren't like totally open
about our dating lives, just because it was just an
area where we just kind of decided it would be
best to not give each other all those details. And so,

(02:50:47):
you know, just because we had a path from before,
and you know, he we kept each other like moderately informed.

Speaker 14 (02:50:53):
Like he told me a little bit about this person
or a little bit about this person, but we didn't
go into a lot of details.

Speaker 10 (02:50:57):
So I didn't tell him that I was making this
big trip out he how to go see somebody. I
think he suspected it though. He was just like, well,
who are you? Who are you going out.

Speaker 14 (02:51:05):
There to see?

Speaker 10 (02:51:05):
And I'm like, oh, nobody, I'm just going out, you know,
to see friends. And because we both have mutual circle
of friends and you talk you know from prepay legal,
So I told him that that was the reason I'm
going was there is a there's a briefing out there.
It's called a business briefing, which happens every week on
Thursday nights. So I was leaving for that, and you know,

(02:51:26):
was actually there was that reason because I.

Speaker 14 (02:51:28):
Knew I would see a lot of my friends that night,
but also to spend time with my.

Speaker 10 (02:51:31):
Other friend that I was meeting, and his name is Ryan,
So I talked to him that day and later on
that morning, I got on the road and my car
isn't the best mechanically, so I stopped in writing at
the airport. So you're in a car and someone had

(02:51:52):
driven me there. My future soon to be sister in
law drove me there, and let's see, I got the car.
He went to my brother's house and took.

Speaker 14 (02:52:02):
An that for a while because I'd been up all night.

Speaker 10 (02:52:04):
And then I got on the road and I went
to she had a cruise and I met up with
some other friends went from the Monterey area.

Speaker 14 (02:52:11):
Okay, so I have lots of friends there, and I stayed.

Speaker 10 (02:52:14):
And I had a friend's house there and visited it
with some other friends the next day, and then drove
to La so that I could see my other friend's baby.
I'm a photographer. I don't know if all the day,
but yeah, I'm a photographer. She just recently had a baby,
and I'm trying to build my patolio with you know,

(02:52:37):
infants and things like that. And her name is Laura Brewer.
She actually never called me back. She did call me back,
but she called me back too late, so I couldn't
just wait around her. I had itinerary. She she's a
really close to friend.

Speaker 4 (02:52:52):
I dated her brother for about four years, so were
her a lot like family. Still Hang on just a
quick second and side, are you still there?

Speaker 10 (02:53:14):
I'm sorry, mysel I got to figure it out. I
mean sorry, I'm just getting out of my car. It's
a little distracting.

Speaker 7 (02:53:24):
Listen to He said, okay, all right, so there's a
lot of happening.

Speaker 17 (02:53:35):
You talk was like on Monday morning.

Speaker 10 (02:53:39):
Yeah, I'm sorry. I did talk to him on Tuesday night.

Speaker 11 (02:53:41):
Oh, Tuesday night.

Speaker 10 (02:53:43):
It was brief though, like that was a matter to
a few minutes. It wasn't like really de conversations one time. Oh,
ten o'clock, Yeah, I said, ten pm or maybe nine pm.
I'm thirty ten, ten thirty, been around.

Speaker 12 (02:54:00):
There, I could.

Speaker 17 (02:54:01):
I guess I could go back and check nine to
ten anywhere somewhere between.

Speaker 10 (02:54:06):
The Yeah, it was, it was. It was late. It
was like kind of a late evening. That's not late.

Speaker 11 (02:54:11):
But what was the purpose? Does that call?

Speaker 10 (02:54:13):
Just call check in and say hey? And I don't
know just I I wasn't telling people because I was born,
I was on the road. Yes, it was real free
he was. He was nice and cordial, but he was
kind of acting like he had hurt feelings because you know,
I wouldn't. Oh, I remember very good.

Speaker 17 (02:54:46):
The reasons were trying to figure out when this actually occurred,
as people are saying they kind of lost contact with him.

Speaker 10 (02:54:53):
Maybe Tuesday.

Speaker 11 (02:54:56):
Was there Wednesday?

Speaker 10 (02:54:57):
So sure, I back I talked to him last Tuesday,
and I'm sure I called him. I may have called
him Wednesday. I know I called him again. From the
Road to Life, I sent him a couple of Texas
and did I sent him a picture?

Speaker 25 (02:55:12):
Did you kind of talk to him though when you
were on the road, Yeah.

Speaker 10 (02:55:16):
But it was it was when I was when you
first started. Yeah, yeah, it was.

Speaker 4 (02:55:21):
It was.

Speaker 10 (02:55:21):
I did talk to him when on the road, but
it was I'm sure that was Tuesday night, and so
I figured he was either in California because he was
planning to go there that week. I think because he
had I know he was playing in California sometime before
Campcoon because he was going to leave his dog with
his grandmother. I didn't know his time.

Speaker 17 (02:55:43):
Do you remember what time on Tuesday night it was
that you talked to him.

Speaker 10 (02:55:47):
Oh, it was it was dark, so it was I
think it was like maybe ten, maybe ten o'clock nine.

Speaker 11 (02:55:58):
At that time.

Speaker 25 (02:55:58):
You were kind of like we started in to La Area,
or we are going to Utah.

Speaker 10 (02:56:04):
I was an impact when I talked to him some time.

Speaker 2 (02:56:07):
I think I was.

Speaker 10 (02:56:09):
Just left Starbucks or something.

Speaker 1 (02:56:10):
I don't remember.

Speaker 10 (02:56:12):
I don't know if i'd gotten gassed yet or what.
But I left Starbucks and some stocking hands out.

Speaker 11 (02:56:19):
What was the conversation about.

Speaker 10 (02:56:21):
It was really brief. It was two or three minutes,
and I said, hey, you know, I'm on the road
still and going, you know, you know, I was headed
to Utah, and I just called because I called my sister,
and I think I called I may have called Ryan.
I don't know if I called me in or not
at that point, but I was waiting around for a
while for Laura, and I didn't know where she lived

(02:56:42):
and couldn't we brother because he was at work, and
I didn't wanted to show up at her house because
I hadn't heard that from her, So I was just
killing time and called him, talked to him briefly, and.

Speaker 17 (02:56:55):
And that's about the last time people were able to
get a.

Speaker 11 (02:56:59):
Hold of them as well.

Speaker 17 (02:57:01):
And then what's the usual? You know, people are saying, yeah,
you know, we texted him and call them, and then
pretty soon his his voicemail is full.

Speaker 10 (02:57:10):
Yeah, that's unusual because he deletes messages like he doesn't
say anything even if it's halfway said. And I don't
like he rarely made that.

Speaker 17 (02:57:16):
Stuff, so the next time you try to call him,
you weren't able to get a hold of him.

Speaker 10 (02:57:21):
Uh No, I left him a message and I sent
him text messages and he doesn't always pick up, but
he's usually pretty good and he doesn't always respond to
tech messages here. But when I didn't hear from him
for like two days, and I called him again, and
I didn't want to be obsessive about it, because you know,
we're not together anymore, and I'm just like, I don't

(02:57:42):
like calling him too much. But he called me or
I call him, and it was a pretty good balance.
But at one point it was like, at what point
do I start calling friends that live there? You know,
that thought crossed my mind, but I was like, no,
he's been California. You know he's going cancoons.

Speaker 2 (02:58:04):
Did you know how to discuss with her about this
issue Bob a more a brewer and how long it
would take to get to uh Utah and visually did
you also discuss the group that se may have taken. Yes,
and take a look at exhibits them at three fourteen
and three fifteen.

Speaker 12 (02:58:24):
Did they include that.

Speaker 3 (02:58:26):
Part of the conversation.

Speaker 11 (02:58:30):
Two and three Yes, three fourteen.

Speaker 15 (02:58:33):
Exhibits three fourteen and three fifteen are admitted.

Speaker 12 (02:58:36):
Oh, this is exhibit free.

Speaker 2 (02:58:40):
So I didn't.

Speaker 10 (02:58:45):
So I hung out that a while. It saw bus
and you know, we filled all that and we stopped
on the phone for a little bit and then got
on the road and lid to Utah.

Speaker 2 (02:58:59):
FU my car.

Speaker 17 (02:59:03):
That's a long drive from La.

Speaker 10 (02:59:05):
It's about it's about nine hours. So yeah, it's actually
just as long ago from La to West Jordan as
it is to go from Yreka to law.

Speaker 11 (02:59:24):
Let's see.

Speaker 17 (02:59:25):
So the meeting in Utah, when did that happen?

Speaker 10 (02:59:29):
That was Thursday night at seven o'clock. I don't remember
the exact location that I call O Ryan there also
you met him then, yeah, yeah, I ended up we
crested in his house for a little while and you know,
just hang out and all that. Yeah, Okay, went to
and then looked a little bit longer because I was,
you know, until I got on the road and then yeah.

Speaker 17 (02:59:51):
I can't remember who it was up there in Utah.
They called me and they said they made new Travis.
They said that there was a meeting on Wednesday.

Speaker 10 (03:00:01):
There is a luncheon on Wednesday. I didn't go to that,
though I talk. I don't think I went to that. No,
I went to some kind of meeting. It was at
a restaurant, a christaurant. Our game is Chris and he's
a he's was recruited by Brian.

Speaker 11 (03:00:16):
Well maybe that's what they said.

Speaker 17 (03:00:17):
It's kind of like a split up meeting. One day
they had like a luncheon, then the other day's meeting.

Speaker 10 (03:00:24):
Yeah, I don't think I went to the lunchy. It's
like a thing that happens. It's the same kind of deal,
only it's set in a restaurant instead of a like
a business style meeting, whereas in the meeting you just
kind of sit for an hour and you listen to
a presentation for forty five minutes or half it long take,
and the lunch and you listen to the same thing,
but you get to eat lunch, and he's in a restaurant.

Speaker 11 (03:00:46):
So did you ever stop by Vegas on the way up?

Speaker 10 (03:00:49):
What tis?

Speaker 6 (03:00:50):
No?

Speaker 10 (03:00:52):
I go that once a year anyways, sort of prefa
legal thing. And I've never been a candler or kind
of lifestyle. So No, I just drove through. I go
through I went through Boulder City and I went through Vegas,
I don't remember all. I think Henderson, you know, until
I went up through I think it was Saint George

(03:01:12):
for a while. I was on the phone list the
night with Brying that time. But you know, so you
could keep me awake. But I still had to pull
over anyway. So I mean, I'm not I'm not shy
about just pulling over wherever and sleeping in my car.

Speaker 4 (03:01:27):
On the road. It is.

Speaker 10 (03:01:29):
It's not the smartest thing.

Speaker 2 (03:01:30):
I realized that I.

Speaker 10 (03:01:32):
Usually park my car in a place where I can
just drive off if I need to, if I get
backed out instead of you know, and I have the
keep mugnition, I bet I'm ready to go. But either way,
it's still kind of inn safe. Anyone could break the
window or something.

Speaker 17 (03:01:47):
Protection or something.

Speaker 10 (03:01:49):
I was thinking of that I know, and I just
I don't know.

Speaker 11 (03:01:53):
Yes I do.

Speaker 17 (03:01:56):
You said, well, California, I would say it's a little
more difficult because at.

Speaker 11 (03:02:00):
Least in the arizonly you don't even have to register
any weapons.

Speaker 10 (03:02:02):
You're just kind of really well, I've actually looked into
I've actually looked into handguns because I have, like I
have a list of like things that I'm really scared
of that I'm trying to overcome, and that's one of them.
And being in front of a public crowded another. And
I was shaking when I think that I'm the national anthem,
theresilably like center people that I had to hold the
mic with both hands. It was shaking. So actually about

(03:02:25):
that from Travis's just trying to push yourself and get
out of your comfort zone and make yourself uncomfortable and
do things that you're scared of. And so I you know,
I've been looking into that, but handguns are expensive, and
you know it's not really in my price range right now,
it's not.

Speaker 2 (03:02:43):
You then discussed whether or not she how long I
had been before she heard from the victim.

Speaker 12 (03:02:47):
After she worked for UTAH, and also how it was
that she heard of the victor staff.

Speaker 2 (03:02:53):
Yes, take a look at Exhibits three hundred, which is
clip eighteen and ninety seven, which is clip clipped twenty one. Yeah,
those contained that those portions of the conversations with Yes,
that's what move for.

Speaker 15 (03:03:09):
The initiative, Exhibit three hundred, Exhibits three hundred and two
ninety seven are you behaving the.

Speaker 2 (03:03:17):
Work that I apologize and one about having heard having
not heard for the victims in two days is Exhibit
two ninety eight, which is clip number twenty, which so
I would move that one in instead.

Speaker 15 (03:03:30):
Any injunction.

Speaker 2 (03:03:31):
I'm sorry, sound like the same one to me to
ninety eight.

Speaker 12 (03:03:34):
It's what do you say eight?

Speaker 5 (03:03:35):
Don't judge hit.

Speaker 4 (03:03:43):
Anyway?

Speaker 10 (03:03:43):
What was I saying with that?

Speaker 6 (03:03:45):
Oh?

Speaker 10 (03:03:45):
No, we just discussed on that.

Speaker 17 (03:03:46):
You know, the next two days after that you weren't
able to get a hold of.

Speaker 11 (03:03:49):
Them, And yeah, am a Carnis friend.

Speaker 10 (03:03:52):
Yeah, And that's part of the reason I didn't it,
because I I knew that. It's just it didn't feel
like my place any longer, to be like his mother
and calling his friend.

Speaker 17 (03:04:01):
He knew about his trip, and do you remember him
telling you when he when he was leaving first trip?

Speaker 10 (03:04:09):
Yeah, yeah, because we had discussed the days of travel
up here, so he had said that he.

Speaker 12 (03:04:15):
Was leaving in ten.

Speaker 10 (03:04:17):
I didn't know how long it would be. I don't
know if it was four or five days or six days.
But I did know that the last we had discussed
is his trip up here was going to be after
can coming in before d see, so he's sometimes towards
the end of June, and it would probably be a
four day thing for me for a three day thing,
but longer for him because he was traveling along with
the California custom and on to Washington.

Speaker 17 (03:04:40):
Okay, so he was going to leave a tip and
when was he going to come back.

Speaker 10 (03:04:44):
I don't know, I exactly get, but I know that there.

Speaker 7 (03:04:56):
Yeah, have you heard anything?

Speaker 10 (03:04:57):
But well, when did you.

Speaker 17 (03:04:58):
First find out what happened to him?

Speaker 10 (03:05:01):
Dan called me? Dan Freeman.

Speaker 7 (03:05:04):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 10 (03:05:06):
He called me Monday. I think it was Monday night,
but it was more like I just was late Monday night,
like eleven something, and he said, hey, how are you doing.
I was like damn, because I had been thinking about
him and I was planning my trip to Arizona and
he was definitely on my list of people to visit.
I love him and his family. I used to go
there every Sunday for dinner and and I said, Hey,

(03:05:28):
how do you doing. He's like great. He said, hey,
I'm thinking about making a trip out there. And he's like, yeah,
I think you're gonna have to. And I was like yeah, yeah,
you know. There was a pause and he was like
and then he's like, yeah, there's there. It's just about
Travis and I was like, what you know, Like that's
never good. Yeah, so but I didn't think anything at first.

(03:05:50):
I mean kind of okay, what you know, we don't
want to assume too soon. And he said, uh, said
he found him, and I was like, what does that mean? Well,
I don't know, what do you mean? You don't know
what do you know? I don't really know anything right now.
I just know that that Bryn Hyatt is at his house,
and then Taylor Searle is at his house, and then
the cops are there, and I was totally shocked. I

(03:06:14):
don't think that I said much. I think that I
just I just kept thinking that maybe there's a mistake.
Maybe there's a mistake. I sure you didn't really know,
so I kept face that maybe there was just a mistake.
He couldn't say anything, and he didn't give me any information,
so I thought he said I was the first person
who thought of the call, but I think he called

(03:06:35):
them a couple other of leaders in interests of business
first if we're close with him. I don't remember who
he called or what order, but he called me, and
I keep thinking that maybe there was there the thing
just made a mistake, and like I felt so helpless
because I wasn't there. I still lived there. I was

(03:06:55):
before I was like ten minutes away, not even ten
maybe seven minutes away. I have just driven there. But
I found out and saw what was going on. I
just felt totally helpless.

Speaker 17 (03:07:06):
What did you think about? I mean, the last time
you had talked to him was what was it under
or Wednesday?

Speaker 5 (03:07:10):
What was that?

Speaker 10 (03:07:11):
I think it was Tuesday evening?

Speaker 7 (03:07:14):
I think.

Speaker 10 (03:07:16):
Tuesday night.

Speaker 17 (03:07:17):
Yeah, did you think of you know, what was going
on the last time you talked to him.

Speaker 7 (03:07:21):
Did you try to get a hold of him after that?

Speaker 4 (03:07:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 7 (03:07:25):
Yeah I did.

Speaker 10 (03:07:26):
I tried to get ahold of him. I called him
Tuesday night. I called him subsequently and emailed him a
couple of times.

Speaker 12 (03:07:39):
Is two nights said? It's already in it?

Speaker 15 (03:07:41):
But is that the limit?

Speaker 2 (03:07:43):
That's episode at the house, as well as whether or
not the defendant said hur aduless set of him?

Speaker 6 (03:07:52):
Yes?

Speaker 17 (03:08:02):
Is there anything else that you can remember or think of,
or any theories or anything that can help us?

Speaker 10 (03:08:09):
I just I just don't know. Travis was a friend
to everybody, and even when things were bad between us,
he was always he would give his last he would
give his last dollar his last whatever. He was telling
me to B and W and I was actually supposed
to email.

Speaker 17 (03:08:30):
Furn it out or something.

Speaker 10 (03:08:31):
He said, he said, he found my.

Speaker 21 (03:08:33):
Check in his house.

Speaker 11 (03:08:37):
That you gave him for a payment.

Speaker 10 (03:08:38):
Yeah. Yeah, I guess, like I this is so dumb,
like it seems so unimportant, but I guess I need
to know if that check is going to be the
positive anytime soon. Really, Okay, well, then I'll just consider
that whatever that I and I'll still in the full

(03:08:59):
balance and aiding figure out what they're going to do. Honestly,
I trashed his car and he took it so well.
We were trying to figure out between my lawyers and
his lawyers and Prepay legal and the insurance in U haul,
who was going to be held liable. And you know,
it didn't matter who was how liable. The fact was
that was the debt that I promised to pay and
it's just money and it wasn't worth you know, anything,

(03:09:22):
So I mean, as far as getting anything contentions over.
So he was never he never had any doubt that
I woud pay him back. But he was trying, and
this is what's difficult. He was trying to work with
the insurance to hold you all accountable. So how it
had all gone down? He said, the engine just blew up.

Speaker 11 (03:09:41):
Now that now the vehicle was still in his name.

Speaker 10 (03:09:43):
Correct, Yeah, he still he was going to hold the
title until I paid the balance in full.

Speaker 17 (03:09:48):
Did you guys have like a risk contract or anything.

Speaker 7 (03:09:51):
Or I had?

Speaker 10 (03:09:51):
Yeah? What I did is I typed out an email
to him and I sent it and I just wrote back,
just reply, I agree if you agree with this, and
he wrote back something about you and saying about insurance,
and it was like okay, So I amended that I think,
and then wrote back to him, and so that was
our agreement. Our agreement was I pay him what I
can each month until the balance is paid off, and
I take care of general maintenance like oil changes and

(03:10:14):
tires and things like that.

Speaker 11 (03:10:15):
I don't know what's going on with this with his
car and it's still at the shop, but his family.

Speaker 10 (03:10:20):
I think it's just sitting there collecting.

Speaker 17 (03:10:21):
Dusk because right now still consider one of his assets.

Speaker 10 (03:10:25):
And it goes, oh you know, so yeah, and I
was told and I probably should have done this, but
I didn't know who to get hold of.

Speaker 7 (03:10:32):
Or who was doing what, and I.

Speaker 10 (03:10:33):
Should have asked hand first, but I emailed his sister
to nishe on my face and I was like, yeah,
I just sent her my condolences. And then the next
paragraph is like, you know, this is really hard, but
I know Travis this amount of money, and I know
that at what point I'll need to settle this debt
and you know that kind of thing. And if you
need to be in contact with me about this is
my phone em written and she didn't get back to me.

Speaker 17 (03:10:54):
And I don't, you know, I don't when a death
occurs like this, you know, everything's got to approbate.

Speaker 10 (03:11:00):
Anyways. Yeah, and I realize now that there's Mike CapMan
is the executive as well, and so I did get
in touch with him yesterday and he said, just give
me all the information you have on that matter and
then we'll go from there and decide what's going to happen.

Speaker 15 (03:11:16):
Mister Martinez, we're going to take the evening races at
this time. All right, ladies and gentlemen, tomorrow morning, ten
twenty five, please be here. We will start promptly at
ten thirty. Please remember the admonition we have a nice evening.
You are excused, all right, Council ten fifteen tomorrow and

(03:11:50):
Chambers and Deputy me miss Arius here at ten fifteen tomorrow.
All right, thank you,