Day 5

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
At least a parent and you were testifying when we
broke for the recess. Correct.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Correct.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Exhibit ninety one was what we were talking about, Judge,
I think you may have to turn on the thing.

Speaker 3 (00:18):
I mean, it's not all.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
And Exhibit ninety one, this is what we were talking about. Correct, Correct,
And you indicated that there was at least two strikes
so far. Correct. Correct. If we go back to uh,
exhibit number eighty three, and I'm not talking about strikes,
I'm just talking about areas areas at this time, they
would seem that there are three based on what we

(00:46):
see here, there are three separate areas where the source
of blood was correct. Correct, And part of the reason
would be that the one that's exhibit at number eighty six,
this area of the door, plus exhibit number ninety one,

(01:10):
this area here, and then what we looked at here
Exhibit number eighty three are not joined, if you will,
are connected in any way, right, right? Okay, Exhibit number
ninety four. We talked about the wall in exhibit number

(01:33):
ninety one, right, correct? And how about down here on
the ground, what are what kind of drops? Are those?

Speaker 4 (01:42):
Those are bloodstains that I wouldn't offer an opinion whether
those could be passive or be ones that hit the
ground from the impact on that west.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Wall on the wall, and why is that?

Speaker 2 (01:53):
They didn't offer enough characteristics to make a determination, and.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
They could be related to the ones on the wall
they could not right ye. Now to the right of that,
we also see some other staining. Do you see that
right there? I do? And is it your opinion that
this on the left is that related or not related
to those on the right?

Speaker 2 (02:12):
May or may not?

Speaker 1 (02:13):
And why do you say may or may not?

Speaker 4 (02:15):
There's nothing, there's nothing distinct a pattern to recognize. They're
just blood droplets and single just a few blood droplets
don't always create a pattern.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
One of the things that we talked about was whether
it's a passive placing of the drop versus an active placing.
Is this something that gravity acted upon these here or
is it something that you can't tell us?

Speaker 2 (02:38):
I can't tell that. When I talked about.

Speaker 4 (02:40):
The passive drops, one of the ways that we identify
those is because they are nice around ninety degree drops
when they impact the surface like this, so they're nice
and round.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Those aren't as pretty, so to speak. So I wouldn't
want to offer an opinion on that.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Exhibit number ninety five. And what are we looking at
here in terms of the scale.

Speaker 4 (03:05):
We're looking at a scale that is on the south
end of the bathroom that has bloodstains on top of
and underneath the scale.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
And did you take or did you examine this at
the scene or did you conduct your examination back at
the lab.

Speaker 4 (03:23):
I observed it at the scene and then also examined
it back in the laboratory.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
What did you do at the lab?

Speaker 2 (03:27):
At the laboratory, I did.

Speaker 4 (03:29):
The castle Myyre testing the preliminary test we discussed earlier
on the staining up to the I think I can
touch it.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Up in the air, okay. And you did the castle
Meyer test there.

Speaker 4 (03:45):
I did the castle Myre on that test there on
the top of that scene, on the top.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
And did you do any castlemyre on the bottom?

Speaker 5 (03:52):
No?

Speaker 2 (03:53):
I did not. That was actually at the crime scene, okay.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
And at the crime scene when you did the castle myre,
what part of it the bottom of the scale did
you examine or did you not do the.

Speaker 4 (04:03):
Castle myre at I did not do any Castle myre
on the bottom surface.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
But there was a reddish substance that you believed to
be blood underneath there right.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
This trying the technology.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
That one right there, and knowing what you know about
blood spatter, what is the scenario? How is it that
this blood drop was stuck if you will? Is it
to the scale or is it to the floor.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
It is on the floor. The stain is on the
floor itself.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
Okay, So if this scale is on top of it,
what does it tell you about the stain that's.

Speaker 4 (04:44):
There that the scale was moved into the position above
the blood stain?

Speaker 1 (04:48):
And do we have any issues about water with regard
to this one or not? No exhibit number ninety o
k right up against the wall.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Or do we see there are blood droplets?

Speaker 1 (05:03):
And did you have occasion to look inside the waste basket?

Speaker 2 (05:06):
I did?

Speaker 1 (05:07):
And what did you find? In the waste basket?

Speaker 4 (05:08):
There was a paper towel and two empty toilet paper
tubes type.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
Of cardboard rings.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
Did they have anything or any indication of blood or
anything that looked like blood in that top in that
waste basket.

Speaker 4 (05:23):
I examined those the toilet paper tubes back in the
laboratory and my indications with my test for that there
was blood detective.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
So you now have what appears to be blood in
your belief, it is blood in the in the trash
can there you have it right again there, and then
you also have it underneath the scale. How many events
are we talking about here at this point.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
Well, we've discussed that there.

Speaker 4 (05:49):
You counted three prior right then this is more bleeding.
But I don't know how many events they are moving
into the corner.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Would this be a separate event from the other evolving
the wall? This one over here?

Speaker 4 (06:04):
The direction it seems far too have it traveled, but
I wouldn't. I don't know that I could rule it
out completely.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
It's possible that it could be another event that was
occurring in this area here, just to orient ourselves. Exhibit
number ninety three. This is a scale we've been talking about,
and trash can is right here. Correct, that's correct. And
then we have the sink area right yeah, Exhibit number

(06:32):
ninety eight. What are we looking at here?

Speaker 4 (06:35):
We're looking at the sink that is to the north
in the there's two sinks in the bathroom. This is
the one to the north.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
And we've been talking about events so far, we've talked
about three. Or is this a separate event from the other. Yes,
let's start talking about this area here in front. It's
first of all, would you agree or disagree that that
coloration of that seems to be a little bit different

(07:02):
than the one inside the bowlt I would? And what
would cause something like that?

Speaker 2 (07:07):
It appears diluted as if it would be with water.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
And exhibit number one hundred as it applies to that,
what are we looking at here?

Speaker 2 (07:22):
The blood is dripping down the side of the ledge
of the counter.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
So in terms of what we've been talking about, pass
it versus active or how would you characterize this? How
would you define it? Tell me about it?

Speaker 4 (07:36):
Those diluted patterns I would say are evidence of transfer
between a blood bearing source and a non blood bearing sorce.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
But as I.

Speaker 4 (07:45):
Indicated earlier, I don't know if this is blood is
present already and then.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Something moves through it, or the blood is.

Speaker 4 (07:54):
On another item and then transfers onto the counter, a
combination thereof.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
But it could all. But bottom line is there is
at least at some point the source placing the blood
there absolutely, and at some point something came by and
swiped it, if you will, that's I think you call
these swipes.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
Right swipes or wipes?

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yes, depending if we look to the left of that.
Do you see this right here?

Speaker 5 (08:21):
I do?

Speaker 1 (08:22):
Is that the same thing as what we were looking
we've been looking at or not?

Speaker 4 (08:25):
Those are what we were previously discussing as passive drops
that are simply acting upon being acted upon my gravity.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Let's look at Exhibit one o five. Are those the
ones we're talking about?

Speaker 5 (08:37):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (08:37):
And then a larger view of it or one oh two?

Speaker 3 (08:41):
You see that?

Speaker 5 (08:41):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (08:42):
All right? Well, how could these blood drops here on
exhibit one oh five? How could they find their way
to get there in that shape?

Speaker 2 (08:58):
The blood source was a of this location above the sink?

Speaker 1 (09:03):
And was the blood source? What was the blood source
doing bleeding? I understand the fact. Was blo source moving left, right,
moving front, the back or just stationary.

Speaker 4 (09:16):
Well, depending which way if that's moving into the sink
or backing up out of the sink, all right, but
in some sort of motion over the sink.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
At some point there was some motion by the blood
source over the sinks and that's what that tells you, right,
And it also tells you that I guess it was
over the top of the sink, over the top. Is
this a function of partly a function of gravity?

Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (09:41):
We've talked about those, and you indicated a sort of
in and out motion by the source. And then we've
talked about this source or that this source, but this
area here on the ledge, both of those appear from
what you're telling me, to be somewhat movement oriented or
or would that be incorrect?

Speaker 2 (10:00):
Oh, I'd say that I would agree with that.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
How about this area here inside the bowl? And in
terms of placement of the source, one O three shows
it and then also one O four. You see that?
Is that? Yes?

Speaker 2 (10:28):
Okay, yes, I see that.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
I'm sorry. In terms of where the source was and
based on the patterns that you have.

Speaker 4 (10:38):
There, the source is above the sink, and some of
those you can you can see are specific droplets, some
of them, because of the curvature of the sink, are
merging together.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
But the source of the blood is above the sink.
Do these also imply movement like those that are down
here or do they not?

Speaker 4 (10:58):
Well, there are since they've there are in several different locations,
it would imply that the blood sources moving a bit.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
Yet, could all of these functions exhibit one on four,
the scraping there or the swiping, the dropping of the
blood there let me see if they could focus a
little bit more and in the middle of the tub
of the sink. Does that give you any indication of

(11:30):
time or can these all be done at the same
time or are they events that are occurring. There's one,
there's another, we just don't know which is first. What
did you tell me about that?

Speaker 4 (11:40):
I would say that this could be this movement at
the edge of the sink could be concurrent with the
drops that are into the.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
Sink, including the ones that are in the middle there. Yeah,
Exhibit number ninety eight, see this area right over here.
I hear the mirror, I do. Was there any blood

(12:12):
spatter or any blood on the mare?

Speaker 2 (12:15):
There was.

Speaker 4 (12:15):
It's very difficult to see when we get to those
shots because of the mirror, but.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
There was there was some on the mirror. With regard
to the blood on the mirror or the substance on
the mirror, what kind of action or what can you
tell me about those patterns?

Speaker 4 (12:34):
When I was talking earlier about the category, as I
discussed the projected blood, that blood that is that a
force or pressure acts upon to eject a volume of blood.
This would be a category in that category and could
be a number of different mechanisms.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
Sure, but let's just talk about is this what we're
Exhibit one hundred is where was the blood? I understand
that perhaps because of the flash, we're not really able
to see it, but if you could tell us where
it would.

Speaker 4 (13:01):
Be or show us on the monitor there, if I
can get my finger to do the right working here,
there were stains.

Speaker 2 (13:07):
Probably if I have that about right there would be.
It wasn't as concentrated as this.

Speaker 4 (13:13):
But there in the in the when you can see
the photos, you can see similar to this up here.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
And this right here, this event underneath it right there?
Is that the same kind of spatter? Yes? Do you
know whether or not this spatter here was caused by
the same event that causes spatter.

Speaker 2 (13:31):
It would be consistent with being from the same event.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
Could it also be a second event?

Speaker 2 (13:35):
Potentially?

Speaker 1 (13:38):
And Exhibit one oh three if you could clear it,
this is what we're looking at here right? Yes? Well,
what about these heavier ones, heavier drops in there? What
is that about? There?

Speaker 4 (13:51):
Could be this large one could be part of this path,
the passive drops that are down in the bottom of
the sink. They can also just be larger blood stains
that just drips together.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
And if we take a look at exhibit number one
oh one, are we then looking at this spatter? And
again my question is how come some are dripping in.

Speaker 4 (14:15):
Some arts Because during when blood has acted upon with force,
that not all the blood droplets don't all break into
the same size, and so some are going to be larger,
and so someone they hit that have more of a
weight or a.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Volume, and therefore they drip down from the gravity. Is
there a larger stain?

Speaker 1 (14:31):
What can cause this kind of spatter pattern?

Speaker 2 (14:37):
A mechanism that might have done that.

Speaker 4 (14:40):
I earlier discussed the expirated, which was somebody maybe coughing
or sneezing if they have blood in their airways or
from a wound, air forcing that out.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
The head is a very vascular area and if I
don't know, if you've.

Speaker 4 (14:54):
Everdicked yourself shaving, then you know that those can bleed
quite a bit. A wound or a laceration to the
head could cause the misting and.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
The patterns that we see here at the size staining.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
That we see here, and what else anything else?

Speaker 4 (15:07):
Gunshot wounds can produce that type of misting effect as well.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
Do you when you are examining these kinds of things,
do you just look at it in the pattern without
reference to anything else that's at the scene, or do
you also look at what may be around these patterns
to provide guidance to you as to what, in your opinion,
could be causing these patterns.

Speaker 4 (15:26):
When we are at the scene, we are making observations
of what those patterns are, what do they look like,
whether their sizes?

Speaker 2 (15:32):
What are their sizes?

Speaker 4 (15:33):
And then we formulate other we use other information such
as investigator's information, the medical examiner's information to make determinations
on what potential mechanisms created those stains.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
Do you also look at the area around it? Yes,
potentially to see if there's anything else there. So, for example,
in this case, Exhibit number one fourteen shows us what
are we looking at there?

Speaker 2 (16:00):
There is a casing laying in a bloodstain.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
Well, tell me a little bit about this casing and
how was placed there based on your knowledge of blood
spatter evidence, not evidence, but blood spatter.

Speaker 4 (16:14):
Training, the blood sein was there and the casein came
and landed upon that.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
If the casing falls into the blood, what does it
tell you about the blood source in terms of sequence
as to whether or not the blood source was already
bleeding before.

Speaker 4 (16:32):
The gunshot, it would tell us the blood was it
was already present. So this blood source was already bleeding
prior to the gunshot.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
So I don't know about this, sweet person, But what
does it tell you in terms of this, was the
blood source already bleeding at the time that this casing
somehow found its way into that blood?

Speaker 6 (16:49):
Yeah, approach.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
See in regard to that casing in terms of when
it was placed. Was it placed uh, in relation to
the blood? When was that case? He placed there in
relation to the.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
Blood after the blood was deposited there?

Speaker 1 (17:09):
So the blood source was already bleeding. Yes, So based
on that and based on you indicated that you read
the medical examiner's report, Yes, I did. And having read
the medical examiner's report, having taken a look at that,
what is your opinion then as to the source in
Exhibit number one oh one or the mechanism as to

(17:33):
how that pattern there was formed.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
Then I would say that it would.

Speaker 4 (17:42):
Be either the expirated the coffee or the laceration to
the head one of.

Speaker 7 (17:46):
Those mechanisms, but not the gunshot.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
Not the gunshot.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
Let's take a look at Exhibit number one sixteen. Are
you familiar with that area?

Speaker 4 (18:03):
Yes, this is the linen closet to the north of
the sink area.

Speaker 1 (18:08):
And Exhibit one's seventeen. What are we looking at there?

Speaker 4 (18:14):
It's an accumulation of blood at the edge of the
linen closet.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
We keep talking about accumulation of blood as it applies
to this particular accumulation. Is that an accumulation that took
some time or is that something that's immediate?

Speaker 4 (18:32):
I would I don't know how much blood is there.
It looks like a large amount. It would be a
product of time of the blood source being in one
position for a little while, but I don't know how long.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
And how was it formed. Do you know whether or
not it's a product of gravity or perhaps the source
laying down? I do not know. It could be any
of those things. The fact that there is blood, for example,
in different areas, does that tell you anything about what
the blood source may have been doing moving? Do you

(19:08):
have any idea because of the blood being different places,
do you have any idea how fast or how slow
the blood source may have been moving? Or is that
something you just can't talk of?

Speaker 2 (19:17):
Something I just couldn't say, we.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
Then take a look at Exhibit one point fifteen in
terms of the item that we just looked at. What
are we seeing here?

Speaker 2 (19:31):
There's I'm looking for a better lip.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
Well, then let's take a look at one ien. Is
this a better one? It is?

Speaker 4 (19:37):
There's a there's a box within that linen closet that has.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
That shows that you can see these dew marcations. That
water didn't make.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
It the bunch you clear that to start over? I
think you read.

Speaker 4 (19:54):
The markings right in that area show that water, bloody
water has wicked up.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
Into the box.

Speaker 1 (20:07):
And in this case, how is that? How can that
be accomplished? How can we get this pattern that's on
the box accomplished? How does that happen?

Speaker 4 (20:17):
There would be water coming into the water these other stains.
This stain here has the diluted appearance on the edge.
It's a lighter shade of red and you can see
the diluted.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
Shades of I don't know if I'm marking everywhere the.

Speaker 4 (20:36):
Shades of blood, and that simply travels up the box
in a wicking motion, in a wicking action.

Speaker 1 (20:43):
The fact that it looks like it's all the way
around the box, does that speak to the volume of
blood that was around this area or is it You
can have just a little bit of blood and then
it sort of mushrooms out if you apply water to it.

Speaker 4 (20:56):
I couldn't quite comment on the volume of blood other
than you can still see it's very the demarcation lines
are very red.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
So it seems like a it's not just a drop
of blood and water.

Speaker 5 (21:07):
Okay, we've seen this.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
It am there. Now if we look a little further
on down Exhibit one twenty five, we see another one
of those. Do you see that? Yes? What can you
tell us about the fact that there's these very much
larger circular areas of blood. What does that say about
the source or can you tell us anything about what

(21:39):
the source was doing?

Speaker 6 (21:40):
Well?

Speaker 4 (21:41):
The source had Like I addressed earlier, that it could
either be the action of the blood source being in
one position there for a while, bleeding, bleeding that accumulation
that little pool, or there could be some process of
this this with the water contact at pooling in one area,
but I'm not certain about that.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
Okay. Exhibits one twenty Are you familiar with item number
six on this photograph? Note? Are you familiar with having
done screening on a hair polopol I.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
Did screaming on the hair.

Speaker 6 (22:16):
I was not.

Speaker 1 (22:19):
Do you know whether or not it was the hair
was at the number six location or not.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
I would only be able to know a proper daty
number referencing my report.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
But I don't you go ahead and do that, all right?

Speaker 8 (22:30):
Did you?

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yes?

Speaker 8 (22:40):
Let me go in.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Three twenty one, take a look at it. After you
found what you were looking for, let me know, but
don't read it or not.

Speaker 4 (22:55):
I found the proper duty number for THEE all right,
go ahead and put the report back and tell me
did you do any work with regard to this number six?

Speaker 2 (23:02):
I know the property ID number.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
Oh, you can eat the property idea?

Speaker 2 (23:06):
I know that that can can I look into my
notes as well.

Speaker 4 (23:09):
Let me see if that helps. If that was number
six lb, that's what I had at.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
Referenced as six lb, all right?

Speaker 1 (23:22):
And is that what is six lb?

Speaker 2 (23:25):
Was a possible hair?

Speaker 1 (23:27):
And what did you do with that possible hair? Back
at the lab?

Speaker 4 (23:29):
Back at the lab, I did my preliminary castle myyer test.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
Did it get indications of blood?

Speaker 4 (23:36):
But on the end that appeared to possibly have a
root all I or had white.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
Material consistent with being a root. I processed that and
send it forward for DNA analysis.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
Why did you focus on the root as opposed to
the hair itself.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
Because that's where we can get our DNA.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
That's whereas yes, for.

Speaker 2 (23:55):
The way that we process DNA.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yes, let's take a look at exhibit and for reference.
You see this door trim there? You see that?

Speaker 2 (24:09):
Is that the closet?

Speaker 1 (24:11):
Well, why don't you take a look at it? And
you take a look at it.

Speaker 4 (24:20):
If that is the linen closet, that's what I'm just
trying to orient myself.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
All right, So where would this be then?

Speaker 4 (24:28):
If this if that is the edge of the linen closet,
then this is the west wall of the master bathroom hallway.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
My question is why is this area here much lighter
than the other stains that we've been looking at.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
Due to the contact with water.

Speaker 4 (24:48):
That the water has has spread over this area and
has not affected the other areas as much.

Speaker 1 (24:55):
See this area right here, Yes, what is that?

Speaker 4 (25:00):
That would be transfer scene as we talked about earlier,
that a blood bearing source coming into contact with another.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
Source with another.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
Service, and so it's sort of a sliding kind of
process there.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
It is linear, So it could be sliding it that way?

Speaker 1 (25:14):
Correct? Then Exhibit number one twenty seven. Do you see
that there?

Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (25:24):
And what is this? What's going on here?

Speaker 2 (25:27):
It appears to be the same. It's a transfer in
the transfer pattern.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
But why is it up here that it's just linear?
And down here we have it coming down? Do you
see that.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
There's more volume?

Speaker 4 (25:41):
For one reason, for whatever reason, the contact with the
blood source was more.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
There's more of a volume that caused it to drip down.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
Exhibit number one nine. See the door up here?

Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (25:55):
And so which wall is this one right here?

Speaker 2 (25:57):
That is the west wall as we.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
Look at That's part of the reason I want to
talk about this is what is this over here?

Speaker 4 (26:05):
First, that is the saturation seeing on the carpet, So
that is carpet.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
Then right, yes, that's carpet.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
We see this right here? You see that little circle there,
half circle thing there? You see that, I see the curpet.
And then this area here is relatively clean, and then
you follow this round and all the way back it
also appears to be relatively clean until you see this
spot here and this other spot here that we've talked

(26:33):
about previously. How is it or what does that tell
you in terms of the depositing of blood. When you
have a situation like this, and then you take a
look at the.

Speaker 4 (26:43):
Left right there, or we can see that water has
come into contact. It could be that water has gone
through the entire middle.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
But if water's gone through the middle, what's going on
over here and it seems to be in a round
circle down here? Can you tell me how that happens?

Speaker 4 (27:01):
Maybe there was something there that prevented it from from
for them being from that sort, from that area being bloody.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
Would it also be consistent with, for example, a cleaning
utensil of some sort. It could be coming through here
and doing this sure and looking at these along the
law here. Is it a circumstance that the source is
bleeding as it goes along there? Or are those any

(27:29):
of those related to strikes? Or is it just a
situation that the source as it passes through there, however
passes through there, it's just depositing the blood. Is that
how what's going on?

Speaker 4 (27:40):
It could be they're not really in a pattern for
me to determine this was where an impact occurred, This
is where something else occurred. There are just a bunch
of bloodstains and some accumulations and the dilute factor. So
I couldn't really talk about a specific incident each down
down that hall.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
But could you tell me whether or not the source
at least was in these areas to deposit that blood. Yes,
And at the same time, was the source at least
depositing blood on the left side of it.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
Now let's take a look at Exhibit one thirty two.
Is this the carpet, yes, it is. If that's the carpet,
what's the what wall is this?

Speaker 2 (28:24):
That's the east wall?

Speaker 1 (28:26):
And again we see this up here. Do you see
right above the switch there or not the switch but
the electrical outlet? And then this right here right What
could create that sort of circular half moon kind of
pattern on the wall?

Speaker 4 (28:44):
Any sort of the transfer it's a transfer type steam,
so anything that would be blood burying coming into contact
with it, or the blood being on the wall and
something coming into contact with it and moving it along.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
Then if we take a look at the area to
the right of a switch and Exhibit one thirty three,
we see that circular pattern also right, correct, and so
and why is it coming down right to the right
of that switch? What does that saying?

Speaker 2 (29:10):
Just be a matter of the volume that contacted it.

Speaker 1 (29:13):
Right there, this area here of the blood pattern going
through there that speak Does that speak to the height
of the action, of whether the source had blood or
whether there was blood there?

Speaker 3 (29:27):
Is that?

Speaker 1 (29:28):
What it speaks to?

Speaker 2 (29:28):
The high the height that the transfer acurd at, yes,
would be.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
And then underneath it is what we have here, right
would it be consistent with the source being this high
and then bleeding down? And these be a result of
those could.

Speaker 4 (29:45):
Be from from gravity. It's because of the water. It
makes them very difficult to determine them from a specific event,
but they were clearly deposited there.

Speaker 1 (29:54):
Why does the water make it difficult to do that?

Speaker 4 (29:56):
Because it washes away the edges of any of the
blood stains and makes them much regularly shaped, which is what.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
We look for in identifying patterns.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
Down here, you see this area here, Yes, Now that
area was cut out and we've taken a look at it.
Have you actually taken a look at the rug yourself?

Speaker 2 (30:14):
I did see it when somebody else had it out.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yes, and so you did see it.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
I did see it.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
And with regard to this particular stain, this is Exhibit
number one thirty one well, can you tell us about it?

Speaker 2 (30:30):
But that is a large saturation stain, which.

Speaker 4 (30:34):
Means that it was a large fool an accumulation of
blood or a blood pool that's.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
Gone into an absorbent material the carpet.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
So can you tell us anything about whether or not
the source was standing, kneeling, or whether or not the I.

Speaker 4 (30:51):
Couldn't define the position other than it was over that area.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
What about right here? Do you see this one sort
of seems, for lack of a better term, more pristine,
whereas this one up here seems to be rubbed. Do
you see that? Yes? What could cause that?

Speaker 2 (31:07):
It could be any sort of contact with that stain?

Speaker 1 (31:10):
Somebody walking through it could do that. Absolutely, were you
able to determine whether or not there had been any
water applied to this area?

Speaker 2 (31:20):
Not when we saw this side, but when we saw
the underside we.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
Did, Okay, I'm asking about what you saw. Okay, So
when you saw did you did you see the underside?
I did see the underside on the underside where you
How is it that you were able to see whether
or not water had been applied? How are you sure
that you did see that?

Speaker 4 (31:36):
Because there was the same way that looking down the hall.
There was the dilute blood stains that you could see
the light shade of red covering areas of the tile.
It was very much diffused around this, under this carpet,
under this stain, kind of the same coloration maybe as
that the box that was in the linen closet, so

(31:58):
a lighter shade of red, implying it had.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
Been diluted and it had flowed down in that area.

Speaker 1 (32:07):
And you were talking about to take a look at
Exhibit one fifteen, you're talking about this box down here. Yes,
so the water that had been applied. Were you able
to tell if the water had come through the top
or if it had just been in this direction? In
other words, was the top wet or was it just
the bottom? Or speak to me about the moisture.

Speaker 4 (32:29):
On that when we were at the scene, I don't
recall it being wet, but looking at it from underneath,
it at least seeped through from the edge of the
tile on.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
But I don't know how it okay, the mechanism for carbo.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
Well, let me show you Exhibit number one twenty eight.
We see that same stain there on the left side.
Then we look over here on the right do you
see that on the right, Yes, what is going on
with that.

Speaker 4 (33:00):
Appears to be a lot of transfers, And part of
that could be from either stains.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
That have been disrupted by walking over them.

Speaker 4 (33:06):
It could be a product of the diffuse the diluted
blood flowing under and then it being walked on in
coming up to the surface.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
So it can't make it. I can't make it an
absolute determination.

Speaker 1 (33:22):
It could be I think you used word did use trampling.

Speaker 4 (33:26):
Trampling, I said transfer, but or this like the stepping
could be if there had been nice looking stains there, walking.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
Over it could have disrupted that and created this.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
Does this imply a lot of walking or a little
bit of walking?

Speaker 2 (33:41):
Well, there's there.

Speaker 4 (33:42):
It's not a pristine looking area, so it would imply
a lot of movement of some sort to contact of
some sort.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
Could it also be that do you see that it
sort of seems to end here? Yes? Did you see
any of that went this way? This walking motion that
or if it was walking this way, I.

Speaker 4 (33:59):
Mean beyond this, yes, be honest, I never saw any
blood beyond this area.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
So this is the only area that you saw this
staining of blood? Right? Correct? Did you see any blood
throughout the master bedroom anywhere other than right here in
this area just right here.

Speaker 4 (34:13):
And then I think right there was maybe one scene
or so right outside of the closet here.

Speaker 7 (34:17):
Whatever, show me where I just rode.

Speaker 5 (34:22):
On top of it.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
Okay, So was it a large stain or so just
a couple of drops, maybe a.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
Couple drops there. And but did you see any near
the bed anywhere?

Speaker 5 (34:31):
No?

Speaker 2 (34:31):
I did not.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
How about near the area where the bathroom goes into
the closet, did you see any blood staining.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
There at all in the closet.

Speaker 1 (34:39):
No, on the carpet at all.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
No.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
So with regard to this staining here, would it be
consistent with and if you know, you don't know, somebody
sort of walking on this for whatever reason, they're walking
on this particular area and not going into the bedroom. Yes,
but perhaps going the other word, perhaps let's see look

(35:05):
at exhibit number seventy eight. Do you see that, yes?

Speaker 2 (35:09):
They did?

Speaker 1 (35:10):
And was there any staining here? Was there any blood
staining at all? That's the closet, right, that's the closet.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
No.

Speaker 1 (35:19):
And then we have some something right here in the
corner there. Do you see that?

Speaker 2 (35:24):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (35:25):
You then go to Exhibit number one twenty one. That's
the area right correct, Well, describe for me what's going on.

Speaker 4 (35:33):
What's the action another transfer pattern, the contact between a
bloodberry source and another surface in a linear fashion.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
As they're going by. Yes, did that extend in this
direction in any way at all? No, So that we
know we're recreded. Exhibit seventy eight. You see the number
two there. Exhibit number seventy nine shows us that corner
there right and right there is what at that turn?

Speaker 2 (36:04):
That transfer again?

Speaker 1 (36:07):
And Exhibit eighty one shows us, first of all, what
is this part right here?

Speaker 2 (36:15):
It appears it could be a transfer.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
Again, what does it lead to?

Speaker 5 (36:19):
This?

Speaker 1 (36:19):
At least?

Speaker 2 (36:19):
So it's the lip of the of the shower and is.

Speaker 1 (36:22):
That where the body was?

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yes, it was.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
And so we then see this right here, this reddit
substance Again, what does that mean in terms of arriving
there at.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
That place that something of a bloodstained source came into
contact with it?

Speaker 1 (36:39):
And is it the transfer pattern that you take?

Speaker 2 (36:42):
It's consistent with the transfer?

Speaker 9 (36:43):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (36:43):
And is this a swipe or not? I mean we've used.

Speaker 4 (36:47):
That term also, I don't I would not be able
to make a determination if the blood was there first
and got wiped through, or if the.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
Thing that made the contact with the shower was blood.

Speaker 7 (37:00):
All right, coded item.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
If we then go back to Exhibit one twenty one,
I'm gonna focus in on this area here. Do you
see that right there?

Speaker 2 (37:17):
I do?

Speaker 1 (37:18):
What is that?

Speaker 4 (37:18):
It's called a pattern transfer where you can actually identify
a pattern within a transfer stain.

Speaker 1 (37:23):
And the pattern that you have there, is that consistent
with a barefoot? Is that consistent with socks? Or is
that consistent with shoes? It's consistent with a shoe dry,
So it's not consistent with the barefoot, correct, And it's
not consistent with a with a sock.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
Correct.

Speaker 1 (37:37):
So if we look at Exhibit one twenty two, that's
what we're looking at, right, yes, And what's the direction
of this particular stain? Then let me give you Exhibit
two forty nine and I'll bring it in closer. It

(37:58):
was right in this area, correct?

Speaker 4 (38:00):
I think I just saw Can you lower it down
a little bit? I think I saw where it says
shoe tread right on the the liver there, shoe impression.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
So okay, they're drawing what was the direction of that print?
This is?

Speaker 2 (38:14):
It was.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Alright? And that's the direction of this footprint that we have.
If you could clear it out for me, Exhibit one
sixty two. See this right here? Yes, I do. Is
that a shoe or is that a sock? Appears to

(38:39):
be a sock with this sock make an exhibit one
twenty two this pattern?

Speaker 2 (38:49):
No, w not.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
Go back to this photograph exhibit number one sixty two.
See that down there? What is that a foot? Is
that our foot? Does that foot have a sock on there?

Speaker 2 (39:01):
Doesn't appear too.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
Does it have a shoe on there?

Speaker 2 (39:04):
No, it does not.

Speaker 1 (39:05):
Could that foot have made that pattern that we see there? No?
Could not. What does it mean when this pattern is
in what blood? Right?

Speaker 5 (39:19):
Christ?

Speaker 1 (39:20):
What does it mean in terms of the individual who
wore this shoe, in terms of the sequencing and how
this blood could have arrived there?

Speaker 4 (39:31):
That they were walking through the bathroom after blood was shed.

Speaker 1 (39:34):
And after they were wearing shoes, and after they were Yes,
I don't have any other questions.

Speaker 6 (39:41):
Cross examination.

Speaker 3 (39:49):
Mispary, Good afternoon.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
I want to begin.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
Before we get into some of the other things that
talked about. We talked about being at the crime scene, correct,
and a few moments ago, I think recently enough. I
want to show you the picture again. The State showed
you a bit of blood that was on the lip
of the shower, at the base of the shower, right, okay,

(40:20):
in the shower stall, the walls, everything that encased it.
Was there any blood found there on the floor, Only
on the floor, not on the walls, and no traces
of blood on any of the walls. Correct, no testing?

Speaker 7 (40:36):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (40:38):
Now, I just want to go back.

Speaker 5 (40:41):
To Exhibit.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
Two.

Speaker 3 (40:49):
I believe this will demonstrate things a little better than
the photos. A few moments ago, mister Martinez showed you
the the pool of blood that is denoted in that
was in the carpet that's denoted by this area. Do
you recall seeing that I did, And he asked you
some questions about if there was any blood any farther

(41:15):
inside the room than that point where the blood ended
in the pool, correct, okay. And you mentioned a few
drops that were over towards the closet, correct, correct, But
you said there was no blood in the closet.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
No blood in the closet.

Speaker 3 (41:31):
And it seemed to me what the implication here was
in terms of what you were saying, is that someone
could not have walked through the blood covered carpet into
the closet without bringing some trace of blood with them.

Speaker 1 (41:48):
Is that accurate?

Speaker 2 (41:49):
It seems like a logical explanation.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
Yes, so, And ultimately what we're really saying, whether it's
into the closet or not, no one would have walked
through that pool of blood once it was deposited.

Speaker 5 (42:03):
Is that accurate?

Speaker 2 (42:05):
Nobody would have walked.

Speaker 3 (42:06):
Through that walked through it, because we would have seen
signs of transfer, at least towards.

Speaker 2 (42:09):
The room, I should say, but towards the bedroom I
didn't see.

Speaker 4 (42:13):
I didn't observe, didn't see anything beyond that one little area.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
Whether somebody would walk through I don't know, right and.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
If and if I was unclear, I apologize, But no,
you wouldn't see. There's no evidence of somebody having walked
through after that blood was deposited there.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
Correct, That's all I have.

Speaker 7 (42:31):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Let me redirect.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
What is regard to somebody either walking through that area
into the bedroom where having looked that that has all
the blood.

Speaker 4 (42:46):
All the blood is in the the blood is in
the master bathroom and that area of the carpet and.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
In the master bathroom, is there something called water? Yes?
Was water used in this case as part of an
attempt by whoever it was, to sort of change the
patterns there.

Speaker 5 (43:11):
Overall?

Speaker 2 (43:13):
Can you know? After that?

Speaker 1 (43:15):
Pause?

Speaker 2 (43:15):
Can restate the question? Sorry?

Speaker 1 (43:18):
Could you read it back?

Speaker 3 (43:21):
Water used this case as part of an attempt by
whoever it was, to to sort of change the matter.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
I would say water did change the matter.

Speaker 4 (43:30):
As to the motivation, I wouldn't want to speculate on that,
but water did alter what I saw and that water
that was used in there.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
Could that water also be used, for example, to wash
I don't know hands. Could they also be done to
you to do that?

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (43:48):
Could it also be done to, for example, clean feet?
Could it be done to do that? Yes? And water?
Do you know what a towel is?

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (43:58):
Could a towel? Then? After water was you? Could that
be used to wipe up feed and handswer that sort
of thing? Or maybe?

Speaker 6 (44:03):
On the spoken across sustained you.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
Were asked whether or not you saw anything or any
other blood? If well except two forty nine in this
area here right? Correct? With regard to the properties of blood,
is it difficult for water to clean them off the body?
For example, the hands to wash blood off the hands?

Speaker 2 (44:28):
No?

Speaker 6 (44:28):
I don't have any other questions, excepkay have a few
questions from the jury.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
Are there any other.

Speaker 6 (44:34):
Questions, council?

Speaker 5 (44:38):
Please?

Speaker 3 (44:38):
All right?

Speaker 2 (44:38):
The jurors have some questions for you.

Speaker 6 (44:41):
Is it possible for the shower to have been completely
cleaned of blood on the walls.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
And door with water.

Speaker 4 (44:50):
It would wash away the appearance of it, so you
wouldn't You wouldn't necessarily.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
Be able to see anything, but if you washed put
enough water.

Speaker 6 (44:58):
On it would there have been some trace Even if washed.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
If we had done testing, we might have been able
to prove that.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (45:10):
Is there a way to measure the volume of blood
in the rooms? And if so, we're most where most.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
Of the blood was located.

Speaker 4 (45:18):
As far as measuring a quantity of blood, it's really,
I would say more of a medical professional's opinion to be.

Speaker 7 (45:24):
Able to offer that.

Speaker 4 (45:26):
I could just say that it was an accumulation and
there seemed to be quite a you know, a substantial
amount of it, But I couldn't offer an opinion of
how many milli leaders it was.

Speaker 6 (45:36):
Any other questions from the jury follow up from the state,
Thank you, mister Jeremy.

Speaker 5 (45:43):
Did I hear you correctly?

Speaker 3 (45:44):
You didn't test anything else in the shower.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
In the shower, I did not do any testing in
the shower.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
Well you mean makes a police department.

Speaker 4 (45:52):
Well that I personally didn't conduct any testing. I don't
know about other units.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
Thank you.

Speaker 6 (45:59):
You may step down. The state may call it's next witness.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
The sea cause uh protective floor protect anywhere than the number.

Speaker 6 (46:07):
Do you understand?

Speaker 5 (46:08):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (46:08):
I do.

Speaker 5 (46:10):
Your names are detective A step on flotus And.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
Yesterday we were talking about the statement that you had
with the what the telephonic conversation that you have with
a defendant on June twenty fifth of two thousand and eight, correct, Yes,
And during that time that you and she discussed uh
her knowledge of the pen numbers used by mister Alexander. Yes,
and they did it for five the number twenty three

(46:34):
include that portion of the conversation.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
Yes, remember the admission of exhibited two ninety five.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Are we approach you may.

Speaker 6 (46:47):
Tune ninety five is admitted.

Speaker 10 (46:54):
You never give you heard.

Speaker 7 (46:55):
Uh his voicemail from the fella?

Speaker 10 (46:59):
I no, did you ever obtain it?

Speaker 11 (47:02):
And if you kind of I?

Speaker 10 (47:05):
I didn't have it. But he had one pin number
that he always used, and that was twelve twenty. I
don't know if that was his voicemail pin number two. Oh,
and he had a garage pin I had two was different.
His garage was his twelve twenty was his pin for
his ATM? Is there are many times when you gave
me his card to go get money?

Speaker 1 (47:23):
Can that was just falling as well?

Speaker 7 (47:26):
It's possible.

Speaker 10 (47:27):
I don't know what kind of I mean. Mine's not
password protect Oh mine is Preford protecting mine before it
wasn't society. So the one for his his ATM was
Joseph's birthday, So that's how I.

Speaker 7 (47:39):
Always remembered that.

Speaker 10 (47:40):
And then he gave me the garage pin number which
was zero one eighty seven, and I think that was
Chris Hugh's birthday.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
Okay.

Speaker 11 (47:52):
I think.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
SORR the part of this investigation. And were the police
able to learn whether or not they're wearing roommates? Mister
Alexander had.

Speaker 5 (48:02):
Yes, he had two roommates at the time.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
And with regard to those two roommates, what are their names?

Speaker 5 (48:10):
I cannot remember their names the top of my head
right now?

Speaker 1 (48:12):
Is it? Do you know Zachary Billings?

Speaker 6 (48:14):
Do you believe?

Speaker 1 (48:14):
Yes?

Speaker 5 (48:14):
Zachary Billings?

Speaker 1 (48:15):
And Enrique was the other one.

Speaker 5 (48:17):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
With regard to those two individuals, did the police investigate
their whereabouts at the time this crime current?

Speaker 5 (48:25):
Yes, we did.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
And were you able to establish where they were at
the time of this crime? Curt?

Speaker 9 (48:32):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (48:32):
And were they associated in any way with this crime
for some into your investigation? So, did you have occasion
to view the inside editioned interview that the defendant gate
in September of two thousand and eight? Were you able
to view that?

Speaker 5 (48:49):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (48:49):
I was.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
With regard to that, were you able to listen as
she discussed the issue of whether or not she had
killed mister Alexander, Yes, and also whether or not in
injury would convict her?

Speaker 5 (49:01):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (49:02):
Are these those two excerpts Exhibits number two forty seven
and forty.

Speaker 12 (49:06):
Eight, Yes, they were.

Speaker 5 (49:13):
Imb the emission that.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
Exibits forty eight. It's a reproach.

Speaker 6 (49:18):
You may exhibits two forty seven and two forty eight.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
O listen to exis number two forty seven. This is
Exhibit two forty seven.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
I understand that everything, all of the evidence against me
right now is very compelling.

Speaker 7 (49:42):
What really happened in there.

Speaker 2 (49:44):
In a nutshell, two people took Travis's life, Two monsters
You did not shoot Travis. No, I've never even shot
a real gun.

Speaker 1 (49:52):
You did not stab him twenty seven.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
That's that's heinous. I would never let his throat from
here to ear. I can't imagine splitting anyone's throw.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
So let's take a look at exhibit number two forty eight. Now,
Jerry is going to convict me?

Speaker 5 (50:07):
Why not?

Speaker 2 (50:08):
Because I'm innocent and you can mark my words on
that one. No, Jerry will convict me.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
I don't have any other questions at this time.

Speaker 6 (50:18):
Cross examination, great, just you may mayor.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
Hello again, detective Hello, days back at this. It was yesterday.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
We heard some excerpts of a call you had with
miss Arias I believe on the twenty fifth of June.
Is that correct? Yes, that's correct, And I think we
heard you say that that entire conversation was about an
hour and forty five minutes that the one we heard
excerpts from.

Speaker 1 (50:49):
Yeah, it was over now, okay.

Speaker 3 (50:52):
And during that phone conversation, who talked to her about
how prior to her move, remember there was discussion about
her move in April of two thousand and eight.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
Yes, correct, okay.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
And during that discussion you talked about how she or
she excuse me, talked about how she lived with mister Alexander.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
For four or five days.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
Do you recall that, yes? Okay? Was that anything you
discussed with mister Alexander's roommates. Do you have any knowledge
if they knew about that or not?

Speaker 5 (51:31):
No?

Speaker 1 (51:31):
I did not ask them about.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
Them, okay. And during that same line of questioning, I
guess when she talked about moving back home to way Arica,
there was some discussion about phone calls or phone contact
she had with mister Alexander subsequent to moving back to Wyrica.

(51:53):
Do you recall that, yes, I do, okay? And do
the phone records bear that out? The phone records you
obtained bear that out? That the two were conversing after
she returned in April.

Speaker 5 (52:04):
I would have to look at the phone records to
be absolutely positive, okay.

Speaker 11 (52:10):
I know they had constant contact back and forth with each.

Speaker 3 (52:13):
Other, okay, And there wasn't there wasn't a point in
time where that ceased for a long period of time,
it would seem right, no, okay. So I guess we
could assume then that that probably took place in April
mayor two thousand and eight.

Speaker 1 (52:25):
Right, that phone contact okay.

Speaker 3 (52:29):
Now, there was also another k mentioned around the same
time period. Miss Arius mentioned that she trashed his car.
Recall that, and I just wanted to put it in
context because of the excerpts. We were talking about an
incident where a U Hault Dolly was involved and the

(52:51):
engine exploded. That's what we're talking about her.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
Isn't it.

Speaker 5 (52:54):
Yes, it was an accident.

Speaker 3 (52:55):
Okay, Diti, menty, I want to talk to you about Well,
let's back way up a bit here, because I think
you probably told us this the first time you took
the stand. But could you remind us again how long

(53:18):
you've worked for the Mason Police Department nineteen years okay?
And how long you've been a detective.

Speaker 5 (53:26):
For about since two thousand and two, okay.

Speaker 3 (53:30):
So I'm guessing when, way back when, nineteen years ago,
when you started as a patrol officer. I would assume, yes, okay,
that you went through the academy, right, yes, okay. And
while you were at the academy, you probably learned the
importance of report.

Speaker 5 (53:46):
Writing, yes, correct.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
And when I say report, we're talking about departmental report
sometimes we call them drs.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
Yes, is that right? Okay?

Speaker 3 (53:55):
And one of the things you probably learned, is isn't
important to be honest and accurate as possible in those
police reports because it could be used later on in
proceeding such as ease. Right, Yes, that's correct, and I
suspect and detectives of promotion correct.

Speaker 11 (54:15):
Not really in my department. It's more just like a latter. Okay,
it's a specialty.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
Okay, it's a special unit. But over the course of
your career, I suspect you attempted to endeavor in becoming
a detective. You expect to do endeavor to make the
most accurate, nonest police report you could.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
Is that is that fare to say?

Speaker 3 (54:33):
Okay, have you reviewed your police report recently, detective, within
the last few weeks? Okay, well, let me maybe get
a cop and you're on a friendly approach, Detective. It

(54:53):
appears your report has been marked as exhibit to ninety.
You continue in favor, and I opened it to page
seventeen for you, Uh read all the way. The portion
of the begins with autopsy.

Speaker 10 (55:09):
And uh.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
Ending of the portion just to yourself.

Speaker 3 (55:13):
It begins with an initial interview with christ and s. Guy,
Just could you review that for me?

Speaker 7 (55:17):
Fish?

Speaker 5 (55:18):
Should beginning with autopsy?

Speaker 3 (55:20):
Yeah, did I believe that's the very bottom of page
seventeen in your discussion of the autopsy goes to the
middle of page eighteen.

Speaker 12 (55:32):
Mka okay, alright, And.

Speaker 3 (55:51):
Based on what we read there, it appears that you attended,
uh the autopsy, mister Alexander on six twelve of two
thousand eight. Is that correct?

Speaker 5 (56:00):
Yes, that's okay, okay.

Speaker 3 (56:03):
And just so we're clear as well, I see on.

Speaker 13 (56:08):
Your report, let's state your question.

Speaker 3 (56:17):
It appears you authored your report on August twenty seventh,
two thousand and eight. Is that correct?

Speaker 1 (56:25):
All right? You may answer yes, August twenty seven, okay.

Speaker 3 (56:29):
And just so we're clear, is that the day you
wrote it? Or do you kind of is that the
data's finalized? How does that work?

Speaker 5 (56:37):
That's today?

Speaker 11 (56:38):
Was this section of the report or this portion of
it was entered into our report management system?

Speaker 3 (56:43):
Okay? So, prior to writing a report, you take notes
something of that nature, yes, yeah, okay, and then you
get together at a certain point in time and put
it together. Yes, And the final draft, so to speak,
is what we're talking about of eight twenty seven, two
thousand and eight.

Speaker 5 (56:58):
Yes, and it gives it that timestap.

Speaker 3 (57:00):
Okay, and it was finally entered, all right, And in
that report you communicate or it seems like you learn
the fact that.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
Here on the report improper peachment be sent your question
right and finished it.

Speaker 3 (57:21):
But it appears that you came away from that autopsy
with the knowledge or with the belief that mister Alexander
had been shot first?

Speaker 1 (57:29):
Is that correct?

Speaker 5 (57:30):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (57:30):
Okay? And you base that on your conversation with miss
doctor Horn excuse me, with.

Speaker 11 (57:39):
My observations through the observation window and also with a
small conversation.

Speaker 5 (57:43):
With the doctor okay.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
And then do you recall on August seven of two
thousand and nine giving some testimony in court related.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
To this case.

Speaker 5 (58:03):
Yes, it's almost a year later, yes, and your own
if I may.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
Approach witness, you need tell me this has been marked
as exhibit to sixty on a place it before you
for now and then you probably don't remember what you
said exactly, uh, As you pointed out, it was almost
a year later to the uh police report that you're
you wrote, Uh, but you were under oath when you

(58:34):
gave this testimony, right, yes, okay, if you could be
so kind, Let's see here as to turn to page
eighteen of that document, and I'll draw your attention to

(58:56):
lying fourteen.

Speaker 5 (59:00):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (59:02):
And you were asked there if you had spoken to
doctor Horn about this case. It's sworn testimony.

Speaker 6 (59:10):
Continue.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
You were asked if you.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
Honestly you were asked if you were spoken.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
To doctor Horn about this case? Is that correct? Overall?

Speaker 6 (59:20):
Do you may answer that question?

Speaker 3 (59:21):
Answer me yes, and you recall the answer you gave
I stated I did, okay? And when did that conversation
take place? A day prior to this hearing? So your
conversation with doctor Horn then, would it took place on
August six, two thousand and nine, yes, okay? And you

(59:47):
were in court for his testimony?

Speaker 5 (59:49):
Correct. I don't recall if I was or not?

Speaker 3 (59:52):
Okay. Did you hear him testify to the idea that
he didn't talk to you on August six, two thousand
and nine doctor Horn statement?

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
He said he doesn't remember the same.

Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
All right. So your testimony was that you spoke to
doctor Horne one day before you gave this testimony.

Speaker 5 (01:00:15):
Are you talking about this testimony?

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
Yes, not testimony today, but testimony here, Yes, sir, Yes, okay.
And in that testimony you were asked about the sequencing
of injuries according to doctor Horne. Is that correct?

Speaker 5 (01:00:37):
Yes?

Speaker 6 (01:00:37):
I was okay?

Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
And you were asked about in terms of secreencing, which
came first, which wound came first? Correct? Yes, okay, And
you recall what your answer was.

Speaker 11 (01:00:52):
I answered that the gunshot was possibly first, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
And what did you base your answer on?

Speaker 11 (01:01:03):
Well, I'd spoken to doctor Horne the day before over
the phone on a short conversation, knowing that I was
having a hearing on this matter, and I discussed mainly
what kind of pain the victim would have gone through
at that time, if the victim had suffered at that time,

(01:01:25):
those kinds of questions, And during that we kind of
discussed some other things, and one of them was.

Speaker 5 (01:01:31):
Very briefly, the sequencing.

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
You say very briefly, but this would this would be
important if you're giving sworn testimony in court.

Speaker 11 (01:01:39):
Right, The sequencing was not that important in this in
this case at.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
That time, so you fell out, wasn't important to give
you acurate testimony in court and your prior proceedings.

Speaker 11 (01:01:49):
Is that what you're telling me, No, that's not what
I'm saying. I'm saying the most important portion was the
whether the victim Travis Alexander suffered in not.

Speaker 3 (01:02:00):
What's the most important portion. Let's focus on what I asked.
What I asked was whether or not it was important
to give accurate testimony when you're testifying it. Yes, absolutely,
and you had testified the idea that the gunshot went
to the head was first, right, Yes, okay, And you

(01:02:23):
went on. You were asked also in that hearing, and
you also talked about unconsciousness and that sort of thing.
But you were also talked you also talked about whether
or not after incurring the shot to the head, mister
Alexander could be conscious. Do you recall being asked that, yes, okay,

(01:02:45):
and you relayed. Did you do you recall relaying the
opinion that mister Alexander would be conscious after being in
the suffering the shot to the head.

Speaker 5 (01:02:57):
Yes, that was my opinion at that time.

Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
That was your opinion. But what you were so you
weren't being you weren't relaying doctor Horne's opinion, as you
said during those transcripts.

Speaker 11 (01:03:05):
Were I wouldn't say that was my understanding of what
the situation was.

Speaker 5 (01:03:10):
But I'm not the doctor. I'm not the ultimate decision
later on that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
So your claim here today is that when you were
at this important proceeding in this death penalty case, you
were giving your opinion as to what you thought doctor
Horn might think, as opposed to when you were testifying.
You told the parties involved there that you'd spoken to
him and this is what he believed.

Speaker 5 (01:03:33):
That was my understanding.

Speaker 3 (01:03:52):
You also gave opinions about that's supported this theory that
mister Alexander whod been shot first.

Speaker 5 (01:04:11):
Correct? Yeah, so do we call that?

Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
Okay? I mean specifically you talked about that he aspirated
blood over the sink, correct, Yes, I do you remember that?
And what does that mean?

Speaker 5 (01:04:25):
Aspirated blood means blood being.

Speaker 11 (01:04:28):
Aspirated through the mouth and through the nose and onto
an object such as the sink or the mirror in
this case.

Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
So now you said it was your misunderstanding of doctor
horne cestimony that sort of thing, and you said you
weren't sure if you were here in court. But in
these court proceedings, is this the first you heard of
a different story being told about when the wounds occurred? No,

(01:05:00):
you've heard about it.

Speaker 5 (01:05:01):
Before, Yes, during doctor Horn's testimony. Okay, we're talking about
another testimony, doctor Horny. But I was here during his
testimony the other game.

Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
Okay, So during this trial, doctor Horn's testimony, you were here, right, Yes,
I was. Okay, I want to be accurate this time.
And you heard him testify then that he hadn't spoken
with you the day before the hearing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
Correct, he said he didn't know.

Speaker 7 (01:05:28):
Sustain.

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
You heard him also testified this say some of the
things that we just talked about about not losing consciousness,
how that was something that he would never have said.
You heard him say that, yes, okay, But that's what
you testified too at the hearing, Yes, okay. And so
this change of story is something that you first heard

(01:05:52):
about at trial.

Speaker 1 (01:05:56):
No, it's not the first time I've heard of it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:58):
Okay. When it was the first time you heard this
story changed.

Speaker 5 (01:06:02):
I don't remember.

Speaker 11 (01:06:03):
It might be several months ago or a year ago.

Speaker 3 (01:06:06):
What was the context.

Speaker 11 (01:06:08):
I don't recall exactly, but I know doctor Horne had
gone and given an interview I guess with you and
defense counsel, and something came out to me informing me of.

Speaker 5 (01:06:23):
What he stated during the interview.

Speaker 3 (01:06:26):
Okay, did you make any attempts to correct the mistake
and testimony you gave in two thousand and nine.

Speaker 11 (01:06:35):
No, because I told the truth and spoke to what.

Speaker 5 (01:06:38):
I believed at that time.

Speaker 11 (01:06:40):
I'm not about to change my testimony.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
But it was inaccurate.

Speaker 5 (01:06:46):
It was not inaccurate.

Speaker 3 (01:06:47):
It was mistaken, mistaken.

Speaker 11 (01:06:49):
And that's my mistake if I mistook his words or
misunderstood him.

Speaker 5 (01:06:54):
But I am not a doctor, and I'm.

Speaker 11 (01:06:56):
Not about to give testimony and experience of a doctor.

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
I'm not saying you're a doctor, Detective. I'm not saying
that at all, but I'm saying and we just talked
about it about the importance to give an accurate testimony.
And in this hearing, you were asked specifically if you
talk to doctor Horn. You said yes, you were asked
if doctor Horn had an opinion of the sequencing of

(01:07:21):
the injuries?

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
Right, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
They didn't ask you, what do you think, Detective Flores,
what's your medical opinion? They didn't ask you that, did they. No,
they ask you what was doctor Horn's opinion? And that's
pretty simple question, straightforward, right, yes, okay, And so what
you're telling us today is that you substituted your judgment

(01:07:50):
for his.

Speaker 11 (01:07:50):
Is that what I'm hearing you say? No, if I
gave that testimony. It was a misunderstanding of what doctor
Horn told me.

Speaker 3 (01:08:03):
Okay, So it's inaccurate, is what you're saying today? Yes, okay,
And that's what I asked you a few moments ago.
Did you take any steps to correct your inaccurate testimony?
And you said no, it wasn't inaccurate, it was miss
it was misunderstanding. Yes, I'm confused.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
Well is it?

Speaker 3 (01:08:22):
Is it inaccurate or is it misunderstanding? Which is it?

Speaker 11 (01:08:25):
Well, it's a misunderstanding of what doctor Horne told me.

Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
Okay, it's a pretty big one, isn't it. No, I
don't believe, so you don't believe. So okay, Judge, if
you could have to take a break at this point
in time, yes.

Speaker 6 (01:08:43):
Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take the afternoon recess
at this time. Please be back in the designated area
at ten minutes after three. Please remember the admonition.

Speaker 7 (01:08:52):
You are excused.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
You're Counselroage for just a.

Speaker 6 (01:08:57):
Moment for the defendant and all counsel Whoster Nurmy. You
may continue with cross example.

Speaker 3 (01:09:07):
Detect this hearing on August twenty ninth. Who is representing
the state at that hearing.

Speaker 11 (01:09:17):
Twenty ninth or August seventh, definitely talking about August seventh.

Speaker 3 (01:09:20):
I'm sorry if I said another date, I apologize August seventh,
two thousand and nine. Who is representing the state?

Speaker 5 (01:09:26):
I believe it was missed.

Speaker 13 (01:09:30):
Goes to motive and bias overall, Jimmy answer, you may
who was the process of you or who represented the
state at that hearing.

Speaker 5 (01:09:44):
Was mister Martinez.

Speaker 3 (01:09:45):
And earlier you testified that you said it was a
misunderstanding or your mistake. Your testimony that day was a mistake, right.

Speaker 11 (01:09:57):
No, my testimony was a mistake. The portion of sequencing
was a misunderstanding I had with doctor Horn.

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
Okay, Well, you were asking some pretty specific questions. You
were asked if it was doctor Horne's opinion that this
rendered the victim unconscious or did he still remain conscious.
That's a pretty specific question, right, yes, And you answered

(01:10:25):
he said it would have rendered possibly rendered the victim unconscious,
but definitely could have been conscious. Correct.

Speaker 5 (01:10:31):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:10:32):
Okay, you also said, or you were asked, but in
the circumstance, based on all the other injuries, it was
his opinion that it did not render him unconscious, correct, yes, Okay,
And you say that you misunderstood, that you misunderstood doctor Horn.

(01:10:53):
That's your testimony here today, right.

Speaker 11 (01:10:55):
A conversation I had with him prior to that hearing.
I had spoken to him already in the anguish, the
amount of pain, the suffering that that Travis would have
gone through that day, and object.

Speaker 3 (01:11:07):
Is non responsive and four three sustained.

Speaker 5 (01:11:12):
You repeat the question.

Speaker 3 (01:11:15):
I'm asking that you're claiming that what you said in
that was a misunderstanding of doctor Horne's your conversation with
doctor Horn.

Speaker 5 (01:11:22):
Yes, what it was?

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):
Yes, it And you know we've seen miss Ariash have
interviews on television. You gave one as well, didn't you, Yes,
I did. And do you recall who that was for?
I believe it was CBS, okay, and my recollection you

(01:11:44):
would probably know better than I. But that appeared to
be a pretty lengthy interview.

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
Is that correct?

Speaker 9 (01:11:51):
Hour or so?

Speaker 3 (01:11:52):
Maybe over an hour? Yeah, And in that particular occasion,
you offered the same theory that mister Alexander had been
shot first?

Speaker 5 (01:12:06):
Is that correct?

Speaker 3 (01:12:07):
Yes, it is, okay, And you did that on a
couple of different occasions, is that right?

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
Yes, that's what I believed.

Speaker 3 (01:12:12):
Okay, And so but this was based on your misunderstanding,
doctor Horne, that's what you're telling us, right, yes, okay,
And so you repeated this misunderstanding. You put this misunderstanding
first in your police report, right yes, and second time
under oath and giving sworn testimony, you perpetrated the same misunderstanding.

Speaker 1 (01:12:36):
Is that correct?

Speaker 5 (01:12:37):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:12:37):
Okay? And then again you did it while being interviewed
on national television.

Speaker 1 (01:12:43):
Is that correct?

Speaker 5 (01:12:44):
Yes, that's what I believed.

Speaker 3 (01:12:45):
Okay, Thank you, detective the direct.

Speaker 9 (01:12:50):
So, with regard to the police support reformat here in
terms of the sequencing of the shots, take a look
at it again and see.

Speaker 1 (01:13:00):
Whether or not anywhere any give two ninety starting with
DA zero zero zero, one eight, and then going to
the previous page, which is one seven, whether or not
you ever indicate a sequet thing of pages ever, No,

(01:13:27):
it doesn't indicate that, den No, it does not. In fact,
with regard to that, do you talk about the wounds
that's a victim received, yes or no?

Speaker 5 (01:13:39):
Yes? I do.

Speaker 1 (01:13:40):
Do you talk about the lacerations and the puncture wounds
and the length that they might be.

Speaker 5 (01:13:45):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:13:46):
Do you talk about whether or not there was stipling
to those wounds? Yes? Do you talk about a report
as to which injuries may have been fatal or not. Yes.
You also talk about the nine wounds in the back
and how far they went in, Yes, I did. Do

(01:14:06):
you talk about whether or not those were fatal?

Speaker 6 (01:14:09):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:14:12):
You talk about whether or not the victim had any
defensive wounds to him?

Speaker 5 (01:14:16):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:14:16):
Do you talk about whether or not he attempted to
protect himself during the attack. Do you talk about whether
the fatal wounds consistent of stab wounds to the center
of the chest. Did you talk about that?

Speaker 6 (01:14:29):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:14:30):
Did you talk about what damage that wound caused?

Speaker 5 (01:14:34):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
I did. And did you talk about whether or not
the room to the throat was fatal? Yes, And then
you also talked about the matter of death whatever that
may have been right?

Speaker 5 (01:14:45):
Correct?

Speaker 1 (01:14:47):
Anywhere there? Do you talk about any sequencing at all?

Speaker 5 (01:14:49):
There's no sequencing in there at all.

Speaker 1 (01:14:52):
And this was written when? Why don't you tell me
again when this was written?

Speaker 5 (01:14:55):
It was written in August of that year.

Speaker 12 (01:15:00):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:15:00):
Where did you just take a look at it and
see what date it was actually written?

Speaker 11 (01:15:08):
It was written and submitted on August twenty seventh of
two thousand.

Speaker 5 (01:15:11):
And eight at four twenty nine pm.

Speaker 1 (01:15:15):
And nowhere do you indicate any sequencing do you no?
Do you ever indicate it anywhere here? The doctor Horn said?
Or it gave you a sequencing of events?

Speaker 5 (01:15:24):
No or injuries?

Speaker 1 (01:15:25):
I'm sorry. Do you know with regard to Exhibit two sixty,
that was a hearing in which you testify a correct.

Speaker 5 (01:15:33):
Yes, it was.

Speaker 1 (01:15:33):
It was under oath, wasn't it. Yes? Prior to that hearing,
did you speak to doctor Horn?

Speaker 5 (01:15:38):
Yes? The day prior With regard to speaking.

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
To doctor Horn, did you speak to him about any
potential suffering by the victim?

Speaker 5 (01:15:49):
That was the main focus.

Speaker 1 (01:15:51):
Overrolle to that question where regarding that particular station that
you had and the defense attorney, was it somebody else
at that time? Yes? Yes, yes it was and there
was more than one, wasn't there?

Speaker 5 (01:16:09):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:16:10):
And with regard to that, you were asked about doctor
Horn he did the question was he did indicate that
he was not certain as to which came first? Correct?

Speaker 5 (01:16:22):
Correct?

Speaker 1 (01:16:23):
And you were asked as to which injuries the belief
was came first. Do you remember being asked that?

Speaker 5 (01:16:32):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:16:32):
And do you remember then that the defense attorneys objected
because you didn't know what you were talking about? Do
you remember that? Do you remember them objecting to foundation
because you didn't know what you were talking about.

Speaker 5 (01:16:44):
Yes, I do remember that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:46):
Are you a medical doctor?

Speaker 11 (01:16:47):
No?

Speaker 5 (01:16:48):
I am not.

Speaker 1 (01:16:48):
But you were allowed to testify anyway, right, Yes, because
of the type of hearing that it was, wasn't it?

Speaker 5 (01:16:54):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
And was it your understanding, just your understanding that whether
or not hear's it was allowed at that hearing? The
question was his understanding his understanding?

Speaker 5 (01:17:08):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:17:09):
And could you tell us what you thought Dr Horn
had said?

Speaker 5 (01:17:13):
I thought Doctor Horn?

Speaker 1 (01:17:14):
Yeah, you could tell us what you thought Doctor Horn said, right, Yes,
And you told us what you thought he said, right
I did?

Speaker 10 (01:17:21):
Were you correct?

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):
No?

Speaker 5 (01:17:23):
I was not.

Speaker 1 (01:17:24):
And with regard to the opinion that you gave. Prior
to giving that opinion, did you you know who Lisa
Perry is? Don't you? Yes? Who is she?

Speaker 5 (01:17:33):
She works for the Mace Police Department Lab.

Speaker 1 (01:17:35):
And Lisa Perry? Did you talk to her before rendering
that opinion back in August of what was it two
thousand and nine?

Speaker 10 (01:17:42):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:17:43):
Did you talk to her?

Speaker 5 (01:17:44):
I talked to her many occasions, yes.

Speaker 1 (01:17:46):
But did you talk to her in anticipation of that hearing?

Speaker 5 (01:17:48):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:17:49):
And did you did you give you any opinions that
you incorporated yesterday, Yes, a few.

Speaker 12 (01:17:56):
And still you.

Speaker 1 (01:17:57):
Want ahead with what you thought was your opinion, right, Yes,
and your opinion was based on conversations with doctor Horren.
That those conversations with doctor Horn were they recorded?

Speaker 5 (01:18:07):
No, they were not.

Speaker 1 (01:18:09):
And were they in person or telephonic?

Speaker 5 (01:18:11):
Telephonic?

Speaker 1 (01:18:12):
And the and the the majority of the time, what
were what was the subject area that you were spent
talking about.

Speaker 5 (01:18:21):
The suffering of the victim.

Speaker 1 (01:18:22):
Did he ever write anything to you giving you the
sequence of events?

Speaker 5 (01:18:26):
No, he never did.

Speaker 1 (01:18:27):
Did you ever see anything written by him indicating anything
of the sequencing of events?

Speaker 10 (01:18:33):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:18:35):
The bottom line that information that you gave. Whose opinion
was it? Was it yours or doctor Horns?

Speaker 5 (01:18:40):
It was my opinion out of anything else.

Speaker 6 (01:18:44):
Your proa h You may are there any questions from
the jury for this witness, You may step down, the
state may call us next witness.

Speaker 7 (01:19:06):
Let me spell your first and I say JO D
J O D I leg l E G G.

Speaker 4 (01:19:11):
Arey sure, yeah, you do saw this swear The testimony
you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing about the truth to help you, guy, I
do thank you.

Speaker 6 (01:19:19):
Let's walk around and have a seat.

Speaker 7 (01:19:26):
Your name please, Jody leg And who do you work for?
I work for the City of Mesa Crime up.

Speaker 1 (01:19:32):
What do you do there at the crime at.

Speaker 7 (01:19:34):
I'm a forensic scientist. Three. I work in the biology department.

Speaker 1 (01:19:38):
And what do you do there in the biology department?

Speaker 8 (01:19:43):
I specifically analyze evidence for the presence of DNA hopes
to get a a DNA profile.

Speaker 1 (01:19:50):
One of the things that uh, we've learned Arder today
is that there's a screener that's involved. Are y, you
don't what a screener is, correct?

Speaker 11 (01:19:57):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):
What is a screener? Well, are you the the same
thing as a screener.

Speaker 8 (01:20:02):
When we say screener, another term for that as zerologist, right,
And the screener or the zorologist is the person that
actually looks at the evidence up front and decides what
areas to swab, are to cut in order to send
through to DNA. And so prior to moving on to
DNA you would be trained, all people would be trained

(01:20:22):
as a zorologist. And so, yes, I am a screener
and a DNA analyst.

Speaker 1 (01:20:27):
How does your job differ from that of a screener?

Speaker 7 (01:20:31):
My job as a DNA analyst. I accept the evidence from.

Speaker 8 (01:20:36):
The screener and then perform DNA analysis on that particular item.
I don't necessarily look at each item and decide what
area to cut or swab.

Speaker 1 (01:20:45):
What What is your educational background, for example, your college
background and your talk about your training.

Speaker 8 (01:20:53):
I have a Bachelor of Science degree from SLU and Louisiana.
I have numerous classes in chem history and biology postgraduate
level and in house training and external training.

Speaker 1 (01:21:06):
How long have you been in a position that you're
in where you actually conduct DNA testing.

Speaker 8 (01:21:11):
I have been with the City of Mesa since two
thousand and four. Prior to that, I have fifteen years
of experience as a research chemist, not in a forensic field.

Speaker 1 (01:21:22):
And with regard to DNA, I think we sort of
know what that is.

Speaker 4 (01:21:27):
But what is DNA?

Speaker 2 (01:21:29):
What personal?

Speaker 1 (01:21:30):
What does it stand for?

Speaker 8 (01:21:31):
DNA stands for a deoxyribonucleic acid. It's actually the genetic
information that is held inside our our cells in the
nuclei of the cells, comes from our mother and father.

Speaker 7 (01:21:42):
It's inherited and.

Speaker 1 (01:21:45):
Well, my question is just everyone has this DNA.

Speaker 7 (01:21:47):
Everyone has DNA, and just.

Speaker 1 (01:21:50):
By way of illustration, only doesn't everybody have for example,
one hand, two arms, two legs, that sort of thing,
two eyes and the nose, and a right.

Speaker 8 (01:22:00):
Correct For the most part, all of us are very
much alike. There's only a very small portion of our
DNA that is completely unique to us.

Speaker 1 (01:22:08):
So I guess what I'm asking is the type of
work that you do. What is it that you do
that allows you to, for example, differentiate the biological substance
from somebody from that of somebody else. If most of
the DNA is the same.

Speaker 8 (01:22:23):
The specific locations that we look at in forensic DNA
analysis are locations that would be specific to an individual.

Speaker 1 (01:22:32):
So those are the ones that if you look at,
they're the ones that differentiate that individuals amongst ourselves. Is
how works?

Speaker 8 (01:22:40):
Those are a very low percentage of locations that are differentiated.

Speaker 1 (01:22:45):
And if you want to once you do this process,
what does the result look like? Is it a graph
that goes up and down? Is it numbers? Is it
in writing? Exactly? What is it that is the end
result of the examination.

Speaker 8 (01:23:03):
You will have a graphic representation and numbers, So you'll
have peaks with numbers underneath.

Speaker 2 (01:23:08):
With regard to the.

Speaker 1 (01:23:09):
Peaks and the numbers underneath are you the one that
actually interprets the peaks or is that just automatically done
by a machine.

Speaker 7 (01:23:18):
The instrumentation will provide the graphs for you.

Speaker 8 (01:23:21):
Then an analyst looks at it and compares it to
known graphs and numbers to decide if there's a match
or not.

Speaker 1 (01:23:29):
And what area of we're looking at chromosomes? Right, certain areas?
How many areas of the chromosome? Do we look at?

Speaker 7 (01:23:38):
Sixteen different locations?

Speaker 1 (01:23:40):
Right? Do you also look at the sex marker as.

Speaker 7 (01:23:43):
They call it, Yes, it's called aligitim.

Speaker 1 (01:23:45):
Is that included in the sixteen or is that sixteen
plus one?

Speaker 7 (01:23:48):
It's included in it.

Speaker 1 (01:23:49):
So you look at the sex marker and then you
look at sixteen locations? Is that right?

Speaker 7 (01:23:55):
The sex marker plus fifteen others?

Speaker 1 (01:23:57):
I see? And if you look at location one, whatever
that may be, and you get the results. Are the
results numerical? Can they be numerical?

Speaker 7 (01:24:12):
They can be numerical.

Speaker 1 (01:24:13):
So when there's a do you know what a profile is?

Speaker 8 (01:24:16):
Yes, the profile would be the compilation of the numbers
attributed to the peaks.

Speaker 1 (01:24:21):
And so you look at, for example, the fifteen Do
you know what the word low scia is?

Speaker 7 (01:24:26):
What is that locations on the chromosome.

Speaker 1 (01:24:29):
And so you look at these locations and then you
get one number or what is it that you get.

Speaker 8 (01:24:35):
You can get one or two numbers if it's a
single individual each of us. Like I said, we get
the DNA from our parents, one from our mother and
one from our father. So if your mother and father
have the same you may have one peak, but otherwise
you can have two peaks. It's a single profile. You'll
have no more than two a mixture of more than

(01:24:56):
you would have three or more.

Speaker 1 (01:24:57):
Let's say that the contribute from the mother of the twelve.
Let's just check that number, and the contribution from the father
is a twelve. You still report both locations of.

Speaker 7 (01:25:07):
Right, correct, but you'd only see a single.

Speaker 1 (01:25:09):
Peak, right, and it's still the same number, but it
still you do report the two locations.

Speaker 7 (01:25:13):
That's correct.

Speaker 1 (01:25:14):
So that if you get a full profile at each location,
each location has two readings correct.

Speaker 7 (01:25:21):
Two numbers, two numbers associated.

Speaker 1 (01:25:23):
With it, one associated with mom and one associated with
the dad right correct. And this profile or these numbers
are then compared to the other profiles to see if
there's a match. Right, that's correct, And so what we're
talking about is a matching of numbers exactly. And if,
for example, at one of the areas, one of the

(01:25:44):
low side, there is not a match. Let's say that
instead of a twelve and twelve and everything else matches,
you have a twelve and thirteen. Is that a match?
Sort of a match or not or not at all?

Speaker 8 (01:25:59):
It depends on and if there's any other information available
in the graphical representation.

Speaker 1 (01:26:04):
How about if you get two of them that are
not the same, well, on twelve of one, and the
person that you're looking at as a twelve and a thirteen,
and the other place is a thirteen and thirteen, and
the result is a thirteen and a fourteen. Do you
know what an exclusion is?

Speaker 8 (01:26:19):
If there is no other numbers or peaks present, and
a known sample is say a twelve thirteen, and then
your graphical representation in the numbers was say a thirteen fourteen.

Speaker 7 (01:26:32):
Then it would be a no match. The person would
be excluded.

Speaker 1 (01:26:35):
In real life, I mean, obviously, if we don't get
a situation where you could always get one pristine sample
of the unknown. And then because people are always touching
things and that sort of thing, what's that called? What happens.
If more than one person touches it, say.

Speaker 8 (01:26:51):
Two people, you would end up with what's known as
a mixture of DNA.

Speaker 1 (01:26:55):
Even though it's a mixture. Are you then able to
still tell whether or not it's a match to one
person two people? Can you still do that? Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:27:02):
You can?

Speaker 1 (01:27:03):
In this case, how many known samples were submitted to
you for comparison the names? If you will, you have.

Speaker 7 (01:27:11):
Had two samples submitted?

Speaker 1 (01:27:13):
Well, no, not samples but known. In other words, do
you know what a buckle swabs?

Speaker 7 (01:27:17):
Two buckle swabs were submitted?

Speaker 1 (01:27:19):
So only two buckle swabs of known people were submitted? Correct? Nobody? Okay?
Who were they?

Speaker 8 (01:27:24):
One was of Jody Arias and one was of Travis Alexandra.

Speaker 1 (01:27:28):
And with regard to Jody Arias, did you develop this profile?

Speaker 9 (01:27:32):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:27:33):
And with regard to mister Alexander, did you develop this profile? Yes?
Did you look at the profiles between the two of
them to see if they matched each other?

Speaker 7 (01:27:42):
They did not match each other.

Speaker 1 (01:27:43):
So so far so good? Right?

Speaker 7 (01:27:45):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:27:46):
And in terms of the crime scene, did you receive
a item that was purportedly near a wall? Item seventy
seven is what it was for you to take a
look at and submit it and checked to see whether
or not there was any DNA and whether or not
you could develop a profile.

Speaker 7 (01:28:06):
I received a swab from the wall.

Speaker 1 (01:28:08):
All right, and were you able to develop a prof
was there? First of all, was there any biological substances?

Speaker 12 (01:28:14):
There?

Speaker 8 (01:28:14):
There was biological substance in that a profile was developed.

Speaker 1 (01:28:18):
I'm sorry I didn't get the last part.

Speaker 7 (01:28:20):
My here, a profile was developed.

Speaker 1 (01:28:21):
Okay, and that profile? Tell me about that profile.

Speaker 7 (01:28:25):
It was a mixture of DNA, and.

Speaker 1 (01:28:29):
This mixture of DNA that this mixture profile. Were you
then able to compare it, for example, to Travis Alexander's profile. Yes,
and when you did that, what was it? What were
the results?

Speaker 8 (01:28:41):
The mixture turned out to be the major contributor to
the Let me stop you there.

Speaker 1 (01:28:48):
What do you mean when you say major contributor.

Speaker 8 (01:28:51):
When you have a mixture of DNA We were talking
about earlier that you can have a graphical representation with peaks.
You can look at it and see which peaks are larger.
You're able to determine who gave more DNA to the
profile than another, So a major profile can be picked

(01:29:11):
out right. That major profile matched Jody Arias. Okay, the
remaining what we would call a minor profile, the lesser
contributor matched Travis Alexander.

Speaker 1 (01:29:24):
All right, So what does it mean that a person's
a major contributor in terms of the quantity I guess
of DNA since we're talking major and minor.

Speaker 8 (01:29:34):
The quantity or you would assume that the quantity was
higher because the peaks are larger for that contribution.

Speaker 1 (01:29:41):
But was there a result at every one of the
low side for Travis Alexander?

Speaker 5 (01:29:46):
Was?

Speaker 1 (01:29:46):
Now, so what does that mean that there wasn't a
result that all of the low side.

Speaker 8 (01:29:50):
It just means that there was not enough DNA present
to develop a full profile.

Speaker 1 (01:29:54):
Was there a full profile enough DNA from Jody Arias
to have a fool if you will profile? No, and
so there was not a full pro full profile for him,
not a full profile for her.

Speaker 7 (01:30:09):
Correct, that's correct.

Speaker 1 (01:30:10):
But even though that's there was there s were there
any exclusions? In other words, could Jody Aias be excluded?

Speaker 4 (01:30:18):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:30:18):
Couldn't mister Alexander be excluded?

Speaker 5 (01:30:20):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:30:21):
So what is your opinion?

Speaker 7 (01:30:22):
I guess that's my opinion is that both of them
were present in the profile.

Speaker 1 (01:30:26):
And the biological substance that was submitted. Was it blood
or do you know? I don't know.

Speaker 7 (01:30:32):
You just know that it's some biological material.

Speaker 1 (01:30:35):
How about with regard to the to the hair was it?
Did you have anything to do with the root of
a hair?

Speaker 8 (01:30:42):
There was two pieces of hair that were submitted, okay.
One of the pieces contained a root huh. And the
second piece was further up on the hair, so a
hair I I believe it was a l length of
hair that was cut with one portion containing a root,
and then the next portion was that piece right adjacent

(01:31:03):
to it.

Speaker 1 (01:31:03):
With regard to the this hair, And do you know
whether or not it was item number.

Speaker 7 (01:31:09):
Six from the scene, I don't know.

Speaker 8 (01:31:11):
We have property ID numbers that I deal with in
the lab that are different than the item numbers at
the scene.

Speaker 1 (01:31:16):
Do you have any description on your report that indicates
what number they may have been out of the scene?

Speaker 8 (01:31:23):
It would have been a thirty nine something. Can I
refer to my report.

Speaker 1 (01:31:27):
Numbers you wanted to share?

Speaker 5 (01:31:37):
Can it just.

Speaker 1 (01:31:43):
Two? In terms of the hair, see I don't remember.

Speaker 8 (01:31:47):
A fan than.

Speaker 7 (01:31:53):
It would be item number three nine two six nine
two dash A.

Speaker 1 (01:31:58):
But you don't know what item number it is? Out
at the scene that I do not. I'm sorry, but
you did do a hair right, yes, And in terms
of the actual hair part, not the root, were you
able to get a result? Not the root? Not the root?

Speaker 7 (01:32:13):
Okay, the hair was cut into two sections. So the
part that did not contain.

Speaker 8 (01:32:17):
The root, there was a profile developed that matched Travis Alexander.
The portion of the hair that did contain the root
matched to Jody Arius.

Speaker 1 (01:32:27):
So explain to me what we have here in terms
of the part of the hair that matched mister Alexander.

Speaker 5 (01:32:33):
What are we talking about there?

Speaker 7 (01:32:35):
There was biological material on top of the hair.

Speaker 8 (01:32:38):
With a hair and DNA analysis, you need a root
material to do what's known as nuclear DNA. Our DNA
is housed in the nucleus of the cells. And so
for hair, if I pull my hair out and the
root is present on the end of it, I can
get a DNA profile from that root material from that

(01:32:59):
end only if I go further up into the hair,
you know, and just take you know, a broken off
piece that's just the shaft of the hair. There is
no nuclei in that section. And so the two different
sections are cut to say, Okay, the root comes from
this particular donor of a profile and the.

Speaker 7 (01:33:19):
Next area of it. I can tell what is this?
Who does the substrate? Are the substance on top of
the hair belong to?

Speaker 1 (01:33:25):
So the substance on top of this hair that you examine?
The profile matched.

Speaker 7 (01:33:30):
Who Travis Alexander?

Speaker 1 (01:33:32):
How about the root? Who did that?

Speaker 2 (01:33:33):
Match?

Speaker 5 (01:33:33):
The root?

Speaker 7 (01:33:34):
Match Jody Arias?

Speaker 1 (01:33:35):
How don't have any other questions?

Speaker 6 (01:33:36):
Take you cross examination, turner.

Speaker 1 (01:33:41):
We have no questions from this.

Speaker 6 (01:33:43):
Any questions from the jury for this witness. I see
no hands. You may step down. Thank you. Are all right,
ladies and gentlemen. We are going to take the recess
for the weekend. We will see you on Monday at
thirty am. Please arrive by ten twenty five. Remember the admonition.

(01:34:04):
Are there any questions? Have a nice weekend.

Speaker 7 (01:34:06):
You are excused