Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The camera.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Not aware of any So what if you're left handed,
do you still have to click with your right hand?
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (00:08):
And in this case that's what we have here, right.
Speaker 5 (00:09):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
So let's say that you click on for an image
and you want to click or take another image. How
does that work? Do you have to push you a button?
Speaker 6 (00:20):
Press?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm sorry, okay, do you have to push another button?
Or just just tell me how it works?
Speaker 5 (00:25):
It depends on the setting you have the camera on.
Some cameras will give you a setting where you could
do repeated photos by pressing onto and not letting it go,
and other cameras you have to press on it multiple times.
Speaker 7 (00:35):
Okay, but do you in terms of the the focusing,
is this an automatic focus?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Is that how that works?
Speaker 5 (00:43):
Or do you know it has a setting for automatic focus,
which is what's usually the camera to be on.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
So if you just hold it down you can keep
taking photographs that yes. Say yes.
Speaker 7 (00:54):
With regard to your examination of this, we talked about
it being somewhat similar to a computer.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Did you actually follow that kind of.
Speaker 7 (01:03):
Route for the examination of this camera or did you
do something else.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
For the camera?
Speaker 5 (01:09):
I once I had a power cord for it. I
connected it via USB connection to a white blocker that's
connected to the computer. And I tried to see if
I was able to obtain anything from the camera memory
and I was not able to.
Speaker 7 (01:27):
So you plugged it in, you go to memory, you
can't find anything, right, What was the condition of the camera.
Was it the condition of the camera or was it
because items were not in there?
Speaker 5 (01:38):
I was not able to find any item saved to
the internal memory of the camera.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
And what was the condition of the camera.
Speaker 7 (01:44):
We know that I had been found in a washing machine,
but what was the condition of the camera?
Speaker 5 (01:48):
It turned on and I was able to use it.
It was turned on. I was able to turn it
on and see that.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
It worked okay? And did it were any parts of
it broken?
Speaker 5 (01:58):
I believed the the actual button to take the pictures
was loose.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Okay, So how were you able to determine that.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
It kind of moved off of its I manipulated the camera.
Speaker 7 (02:11):
And were there any other items that were off of it?
For example, was there any cover in the back that
was off of it?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Anything like that?
Speaker 5 (02:17):
No, it looked exactly how it looks.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Now this.
Speaker 7 (02:22):
Sim card that we have there. Yeah, with regard.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
To that, and if you put the water on it,
would that affect right? If you put water on it
on the sim card, would that affect it?
Speaker 7 (02:37):
In other words, its capabilities and its ability to work or.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Not it can? How about bleach? Would that also affect it?
Speaker 5 (02:45):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (02:46):
In this case, were you able to look at the
camera and see where this sim card was?
Speaker 5 (02:52):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I was.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Were you the person who actually removed it?
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (02:56):
And tell me a little bit in terms of its
safeguards and protection from moisture. Why don't you tell me
a little bit about where the sim card was located?
Speaker 5 (03:05):
The sim card, Well, it's not a sim cars, it's
a memory stick.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
What's the difference between what I've been saying.
Speaker 5 (03:12):
It's a similar type of a storage device. The SIM
card is more used for phones, I see.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
And so this is a memory stick, go ahead.
Speaker 5 (03:21):
And the memory stick from my recollection had like a
little cover on it, and then it was inside of
the camera itself in the area and the camera where
you put the memory card in.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
So my question was was it protected from water and
that sort of thing?
Speaker 5 (03:37):
It could have been?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yes, And you have that memory stick there, Yes? And
what exhibit number is it?
Speaker 5 (03:46):
Two fifteen?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
It's actually very small, isn't it.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (03:50):
Is that a function of how much it can store?
Or is it just that it's small because of a camera.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
I believe it's more of a function, so it could
be put in the camera and not take much space
in the camera.
Speaker 7 (04:02):
So now you have this camera, You've now plugged it in,
You're about to start your analysis.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
What do you do next?
Speaker 5 (04:10):
After I was done with the camera itself, then I
went on to the actual card, to the member of
stick media device.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
And what did you do with that?
Speaker 7 (04:20):
I know that previously you said, well, I would normally
make a mirror image and then I would use that
for the analysis.
Speaker 5 (04:27):
Did you do that here or not? Not exactly the
same way?
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Now?
Speaker 7 (04:30):
No?
Speaker 5 (04:30):
Why what happened was I connected the card to a
card viewer viewers basically you could connect multiple different size
of cards to it. And that's connected to the computer
Vira USB. Okay that also, I have a USB right
block of which I use that guests connect. The viewer
(04:51):
gets connected into the USB blocker, which is connected into
my forensic computer machine. When I try to bring up
the card, it won't it wouldn't come up. I checked
updates on my hardware blocker to make sure I was
completely updated on all the new updates I was. I
restarted the computer, which is what we typically doing the
computer world. With something that doesn't work, you just restart
(05:12):
the computer and see if it works. Tried it again,
didn't work. I tried it on my other computers at too.
I tried it in my partner's computer. Didn't work. At
that time. The only alternative I had to try to
get an image of it was to actually stick it
into use the card reader and actually connect the card
reader directly into my machine.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
And were you able to get some results?
Speaker 5 (05:31):
But we're arning that at that point in time, it
did come up and I was able to see it
in the computer.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
And what were you able to see? Were there items
that were there for you to look at that had
not been deleted?
Speaker 7 (05:42):
Were there items there that had been deleted or was
there a combination?
Speaker 5 (05:45):
There were a combination of items that I was able
to see initially that were not deleted.
Speaker 7 (05:49):
So in other words, there were actual photographs, Yes, there
were that memory stick that had not been deleted.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Yes, there were actual active files on the memory card.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
But there were also images that had been deleted.
Speaker 5 (06:03):
Right, Yes, So once I went ahead and made an
image of the card, a forensic image of the card.
I went ahead and use in case to look through
the card.
Speaker 7 (06:12):
I understand that, but there were some images that were deleted.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Correct.
Speaker 7 (06:16):
Yes, And with regard to the deletion process involving the camera,
how many steps are a person to Let's talk about
one image. How many steps would a person have to
take in order to you can take the camera out
to actually delete an image from that camera.
Speaker 5 (06:34):
There will be a five step process.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Okay, explain to me why it would be five steps.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
First step will be to press the playback button, which
is located on the back of the camera above the
little LCD screen that it has.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
And what does that do?
Speaker 5 (06:49):
When you press the playback button, it brings you to
the to the screen on the camera where you could select.
It brings up the screen of the camerahere you can
see photos on it.
Speaker 7 (06:58):
So when it brings up this screen, do you see one, two, three?
How many photos do you see or do you just
see one?
Speaker 5 (07:03):
It depends on what was Sometimes it may bring up
the last image that was taken.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And it may bring up other images.
Speaker 7 (07:11):
What if you want to delete it not the last image,
but an image before that, Do you then have to
scroll back or what do you have to do?
Speaker 5 (07:18):
You can scroll back to do that, but you will
have to select menu first to then select, which will
be the third step to select delete.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Okay, so we're at the first step and the first
step again.
Speaker 5 (07:29):
The first step is pressing playback.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Okay, and then you see something, Then what's the next step?
Speaker 5 (07:33):
The second step will be to press the menu button,
which is located to the right of the LCD screen.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
And why would the person need to press the menu button?
Speaker 5 (07:43):
That's where you get the option to select delete?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
All right, So you've now done that.
Speaker 7 (07:49):
And when you get the option to delete, are you
deleting whole schemes of things.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Or are you just deleting one image in the way
we're describing it here.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Once you hit the button select the lead, then you
have multiple ways of deleting.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Okay, so we're at the menu portion then right right,
Then what's the next thing that you do?
Speaker 5 (08:08):
The next thing will be to select the lead from
the menu portion. That's step number three.
Speaker 7 (08:12):
So when you select what are you selecting? What are
you trying to get?
Speaker 5 (08:17):
You select the lead. Once you select the lead, then
the fourth step will be to determine how you want
to delete.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
When you say how you want to delete, what are
we talking about? I thought if you just push the
button delete, it's done.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
Well, there's multiple ways of deleting. You can either delete
one image, you select one image to the leave, you
can select multiple images, or you can select the entire
fold of containing images.
Speaker 7 (08:40):
With regard to this camera, and you said it did
have deleted items, but it also had items that weren't deleting, right, yes,
So would you have an opinion as to whether or
not there was a choice as to the individual making
a choice to actually delete some and not others? Sustained
(09:03):
with regard to this where all of them deleted, all
the photos deleted?
Speaker 2 (09:07):
No, we're only some deleted. Yes, And in your process
that you're talking about, is that the fourth step that
there is a choice to be made? Yes, then what's
the fifth step?
Speaker 5 (09:19):
The fifth step would be deleting the ones that you
choose to delete, So.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
That would be the fifth step, Right, go ahead, do it?
How long will it take? Can you do that? Or
is it not powered up enough for you?
Speaker 5 (09:29):
It's not powered up for me to do that, but
it would depending on how you do it for one image,
it will take the step process out to selected, wait
for that to show up. I want to select menu,
then select on the lete. Then I will have to
go ahead and look at the image and whether I
want to do multiple images or one image, and then
I had to set delete again.
Speaker 7 (09:51):
So you said that there were some deleted images and
there was also some images that were not deleted.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
The images that were not deleted, did you look at those? Yes?
Speaker 7 (10:00):
And generally or not generally? But what can you remember
that those images.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Or photographs were up.
Speaker 5 (10:08):
There were photographs of mister Alexander in the shower.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Those were not deleted.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
I'm sorry, I said, I'm talking about or not deleted.
I don't know what the images were off hand, okay.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
But you do they were the ones that were not deleted.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
There were quite a few not deleted images.
Speaker 7 (10:28):
And with regard to the images that were not deleted,
how is it that you go about capturing those in
this case?
Speaker 2 (10:35):
How did you go about doing.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
That as far as using my forensic software?
Speaker 7 (10:40):
Just how did how is it that they then turned
out to be a picture? You're going through it and
then it becomes a picture at some point right.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
Right when I look at on my software, I select
the image view and it shows me all the images.
And initially you'll show me all the images that are
in there. So I started seeing all the images that
were not deleted.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Okay.
Speaker 7 (10:58):
And with regard to the items that were deleted, were
there's some that involved mister Alexander in the shower, yes,
where there are also some nudes that were that appeared
people were involved in some sort of sexual activity.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Was it a man and a woman?
Speaker 8 (11:13):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (11:14):
And then there were also three others that were were
at the end, right, Yes, let's talk about the first
set up part.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Take a look at Exhibits one sixty four or.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
One sixty nine.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
You recognize those, yes?
Speaker 7 (11:36):
And are those were those images that had that you
recovered from the camera from the deleted space of that camera.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
These are images that would recover from the unallocated space
of the camera.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Okay.
Speaker 7 (11:49):
When you say when I said deleted and you said unallocated,
explain to me what's the difference. Does it mean that
unallocated those are not deleted images?
Speaker 5 (11:58):
No, it does not mean that, but it's.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
A different Why don't you tell me about it?
Speaker 5 (12:01):
Then, a deleted image in any case is referred as
to one that you can recover fully recovering except the
entire directory of the file, okay, with an unallocated one.
And what I mean by the director you means in
like a computer, when you're looking at a file, will
tell you when it was created and if it was deleted,
(12:23):
it'll tell you when with unallocated space, that part of
the file may not be there.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
In other words, the time when it was right deleted
is right.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
The part of the file that contains all that information
would not be with the file, and the only thing
you may be able to find is the actual image,
or you may find sometimes partial images or partial files.
Speaker 7 (12:42):
Are you also able to find with regard to those
that are in an unallocated space? Are you able to
find the date and time that they images were created?
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Typically you may not. But in this case, these images,
when you're taken with this camera, it embeds the date
and time that the camera has set on it to
the fire itself.
Speaker 7 (13:01):
And so with the photographs, at least that some of
them comes to day and time.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
Yes, And I.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Noticed that some of them are blurry and some of
them are not. What's what's the reason for that?
Speaker 5 (13:12):
The blurry ones were thumbnails? And when you make the
thumbnail bigger, it becomes blurry.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
And you previously explained to us what a thumbnail was,
but just so that word clear. This grouping that you have,
does it include both full photographs as well as thumbnails, Yes,
it does.
Speaker 7 (13:31):
So if the camera takes a photograph which is normal
size and it also creates a thumbnail, who when is
the choice made by the camera to keep the thumbnail
versus the larger size photograph?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
How does that work?
Speaker 5 (13:47):
Typically when you take the photo, both are created.
Speaker 7 (13:50):
Okay, Well, in this case, why didn't you get the
one that wasn't the thumbnail?
Speaker 5 (13:54):
Because these images here were all deleted previously.
Speaker 7 (13:58):
And so what happens then to the larger version when
they're in the deleted or unallocated space.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
The deleted ones that are not the same as the
thumbnail were not found with the thumbnail may have been
overridden by other other photos that were placed on the drive.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I'm sorry on the card, but the thumbnail ones were
not the thumbnail was not. So in other words, they
were both. They both went to the same place, but
one of them may have been covered up. Is that
what you're saying?
Speaker 5 (14:25):
Well, yeah, just overwritten, So it.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Go for the admission of exhibits one sixty four.
Speaker 9 (14:44):
You may if it's one sixty four through one sixty nine,
I readmitted.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
H these photographs.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Some of them have a date and time on there.
Speaker 7 (15:08):
Did the photographs when you recover them have the dayton
time on there?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Or is that something that was recovered as part of
the process using the n case report.
Speaker 5 (15:20):
The photo itself.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I'm talking about the writing, the writing that.
Speaker 5 (15:24):
That was created with the en case and then the
day and time also the dating time was but the
day and time in case showed on the photograph for
your image. I'm not sure how that got on.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Well, why don't you just take a look at this
and tell me?
Speaker 7 (15:36):
For example, dayton times on there? Where did they come from?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Is a question?
Speaker 5 (15:42):
They came from done case reports the way it dated.
Speaker 7 (15:44):
Okay, first of all, let's take a look at the
exhibit one sixty four.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
And start. What's the dayton time for this one?
Speaker 5 (15:57):
It's called it difficult for me ZIP is fifty three pm.
Speaker 7 (16:04):
And it does say something about unallocated clusters, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yes, we've been talking.
Speaker 7 (16:09):
About unallocated space and that sort of thing. Is that
the same thing or it's something else?
Speaker 5 (16:14):
That's same thing.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
And then it is an image of a female. Correct,
Yes it is Exhibit one sixty six. That's the image
of a male. Correct, Yes it is. What is this
right here? You know what that is?
Speaker 5 (16:36):
It looks like a bottle of personal ky I believe
person lubriquin.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
And what's the date and time on that one?
Speaker 5 (16:47):
Six four eight at fifty pm?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
And then Exhibit one sixty five, what's the date in time?
Speaker 5 (16:59):
Emma six four eight pm?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Sir?
Speaker 7 (17:04):
If we then take a look at Exhibit one sixty seven,
do you see this right here in the foreground?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Do you know what that is?
Speaker 5 (17:14):
I can't make it all.
Speaker 7 (17:15):
If you then take a look at exhibit number one
sixty six, do you have any idea what that might be?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Within? Could it be that same bottle of personal?
Speaker 8 (17:31):
Let me?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Could it be the same bottle of personal lubricant? This
item here? What's the top? What color is that?
Speaker 10 (17:38):
This blue?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
The bottom down here? What color is that?
Speaker 5 (17:44):
This lightning color? Just white?
Speaker 7 (17:48):
Exhibit one sixty six. What's the color of the top blue?
And the body if you will of it white?
Speaker 2 (17:58):
This back here is what you know what that is?
Speaker 5 (18:05):
Believe it's a TV all right?
Speaker 7 (18:07):
And why is this so blurry as compared to for example,
Exhibit one.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Sixty six, that one it's a thumbnail. And with regard
to a thumbnail, why again is it that these are
blurry and the other.
Speaker 5 (18:22):
Ones are up Because the smaller the image is when
you try it turn larger, it becomes blurry because of
the pixelation of it. So the larger the image, the
more league way you have. We're making it bigger or
making it smaller, and it still seems clear.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Exhibit one sixty eight. This is one that's blurry.
Speaker 7 (18:42):
Correct, But do you see this item up here, Exhibit
one sixty six.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
The bottle there? What color?
Speaker 7 (18:54):
Does that appear to you to have the same sort
of form as the bottle Exhibit one sixty six, Yes,
it does, says here unallocated clusters. How come there's no
date in time there.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
I was not even to locate a dad a time
on that one.
Speaker 7 (19:15):
But you use the same process for these photographs as
you did for the others. Yeah, an Exhibit one sixty nine.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
This one is also from.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
Unacocated clusters, and we don't know the date and time
on that noise.
Speaker 7 (19:42):
So if we're going to at least look through the
timing of this the first one in terms of time
is one forty four fifty pm, right, correct.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
I'm sorry. If we take a look at Exhibit one
sixty five, that's an earlier time of one forty four correct, Yeah,
an Exhibit one sixty seven, the time is.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
What one forty seven fifteen?
Speaker 7 (20:11):
As part of examining the camera, did you also have
occasion to find some how did it?
Speaker 4 (20:16):
What We're gonna have some man as dude in the shower.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
Will examining the the memory.
Speaker 10 (20:22):
Colors about that Exhibit one.
Speaker 7 (20:57):
You recognize that, Yes, were these the items that were
also part of the memory stick from this camera that
we've been talking about.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yes, and you were the one that actually pulled them up.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Crap.
Speaker 7 (21:08):
Yes, and the times and the date on there. They
also appear on this end case report and then added.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
To the photogras.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yes, just so that we're clear the time and date.
Is that something that came from a computer or is
that something that came from the memory stick itself?
Speaker 5 (21:25):
It came it was put there about the camera itself
when it saved the photo to the camera to the
memory stick all over the vision.
Speaker 11 (21:39):
Not that you Exhibit's one forty one through one sixty.
Speaker 7 (21:43):
Or take a look at one and what's the date
in time.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Six four eight at five twenty four?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Were you out at the Queensboro address that's part of
the investigation or not?
Speaker 5 (22:07):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (22:08):
Did you go happen to go upstairs to look where
the body was found?
Speaker 5 (22:13):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (22:14):
And do you happen to recognize this shower area?
Speaker 5 (22:19):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Is this the area where the body was found?
Speaker 5 (22:24):
From what I was told, I wasn't there when the
body was there?
Speaker 7 (22:27):
Okay, how about when you were there? And was the
body there when you went there?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Or had the body been removed?
Speaker 5 (22:32):
I believe it was it was removed when I saw
the shower.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Okay.
Speaker 7 (22:37):
And the time there is five twenty two and twenty
four seconds right, yes, Exhibit number one forty two.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Is how what time is it on there?
Speaker 5 (22:51):
It's that five two thirty six.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
By my calculation, that's twelve seconds apart. Correct.
Speaker 7 (22:57):
Yes, So hence my question in terms of the camera,
if there's twelve seconds between it, is that a function
of the person adjusting for the shot or is it
a function of the camera not requiring some maybe focusing
or something.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Can you tell at all or not?
Speaker 5 (23:17):
It would to me it would be more of a
function of the person taking that time to take another photo.
Speaker 7 (23:23):
And if a person were to take this photograph the camera,
would it given the way the photographs are taken, would
the camera have to be in the right hand or
the left hand?
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Naturally you would take the photo with your right hand.
That's the easiest way to do it.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
And why do you say that's the easiest way to do.
Speaker 5 (23:46):
It, because with the left hand you have to reach
across the other side of the camera you hand to
press the button to take the photo.
Speaker 7 (23:54):
And would you then run the danger, if you will,
of putting your finger in front of the.
Speaker 5 (23:59):
Right to some beach over them?
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Exhibit this is that.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
Five fifty four.
Speaker 7 (24:11):
And if you look at this one, it seems a
lot darker, doesn't it. Yes, this camera, you did indicate
it had an auto feature.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Correct?
Speaker 7 (24:22):
Yes, If one is darker and one is not, what
does that indicate to you whether or not the camera
was an auto feature or not?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
What doesn't indicate anything at all?
Speaker 5 (24:36):
It may indicate that it was being messed with. I
don't know.
Speaker 7 (24:39):
Well, in terms of the lighting, if a lighting hadn't
been changed, let's assume that and one is darker like
this than the other What does that mean in terms
of the camera and the settings on it?
Speaker 5 (24:54):
The setting could have been changed.
Speaker 7 (24:56):
And so somebody would have had to change the settings
right Exhibit one forty four.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
This is at what time?
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Five twenty three zero zero?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
And how many seconds later? Is that sick? Exhibit one
forty five. What do we see there? Is the exposure?
Speaker 7 (25:23):
In other words, is the lighting there the same as
in the previous two?
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Is appears to be similar?
Speaker 7 (25:29):
And when was this taken five twenty three twenty four?
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Exhibit one forty six. What time was this.
Speaker 5 (25:41):
Taken five twenty three thirty?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
How many seconds apart?
Speaker 11 (25:45):
Six?
Speaker 2 (25:47):
I foight Exhibit one forty seven. What time was it.
Speaker 5 (25:53):
Taken five twenty four thirty?
Speaker 7 (25:56):
And the previous one was taken one time five three?
Exhibit one forty eight. See that, Yes, I want you
to compare it to exhibit an Exhibit one forty seven.
What side of the face is the person? What side
of the face is being photographed?
Speaker 5 (26:18):
The right side and an.
Speaker 7 (26:20):
Exhibit one side the left side? They both appear to
be getting wet, don't they see that?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Right there? And you see that right there?
Speaker 7 (26:31):
Yes, the positioning of the person taking it changed right
taking the photograph.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
It appears correct sustained.
Speaker 7 (26:41):
If when you were up there you saw where the
shower head was right, yes, did the showerhead position change?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
No?
Speaker 7 (26:52):
Did you see any other shower head that would have
spotted out water or other than that one?
Speaker 5 (26:58):
I just saw one shot.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
See the difference in times there?
Speaker 6 (27:02):
What are they?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Can you tell cat Bury?
Speaker 5 (27:04):
I can't remember.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
I'm bringing in lurry and I'll see it.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
There five twenty four forty eight?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
So how many seconds apart are they? Eighteen Exhibit one
nine Again, it's the left side of his head, correct, Yeah,
And the times some of.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
These five twenty four fifty two, five twenty four it's
kind of blurry. I think it's says forty.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Eight, all right? And if it is forty eight, how
many second differential is that?
Speaker 5 (27:40):
Four?
Speaker 7 (27:44):
Now, if we take a look at Exhibit one fifty,
are you able to tell where the water is coming from?
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (27:52):
What part?
Speaker 5 (27:53):
It's on the right side of the photo? Upper right?
Pardon upper right side of the photo.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Can you tell from.
Speaker 7 (27:59):
This hold the individual was taking this photograph? Or is
it such that the photograph has a zoom kind of
feature that would prevent you from doing that?
Speaker 5 (28:11):
The camera does have zoom, so I wouldn't know how
close they.
Speaker 7 (28:15):
Were, but it is the what side of the face
is that?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
That's the left side of it and the time.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
Five twenty four fifty six, five twenty four fifty two and.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
That's four seconds differentially, right?
Speaker 5 (28:30):
Correct?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Exhibit one, what does this upp hear?
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Water from the shower?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
And do you have any idea what these droplets could be?
Speaker 5 (28:57):
It could be from the door, shower door, It could
be because it could be water that got on the
camera lens itself.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Okay, how much? What's the time on this one?
Speaker 5 (29:07):
Five twenty five zero zero?
Speaker 7 (29:10):
And the differential between that one and the previous one
four seconds?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Exhibit one.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
Five twenty nine.
Speaker 7 (29:28):
Based on what you see there, can you tell whether
or not the person's standing or not?
Speaker 5 (29:33):
To me, he looks like he's saying.
Speaker 7 (29:37):
And the differential between that one and the previous exhibit
is how much time?
Speaker 5 (29:43):
Four minutes and twenty seconds?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Well, okay, Exhibit one sixteen. What's the time on that
five minutes?
Speaker 5 (29:55):
I'm sorry, five thirty thirty seven.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
And the previous time was.
Speaker 5 (30:02):
Five twenty nine twenty.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Let's take a look at some other exhibits.
Speaker 7 (30:09):
Exhibit number one fifty eight. What's the time there?
Speaker 5 (30:18):
It's kind of blurry on my end here, kids, let
me have you a look at five twenty eighth. I'm sorry,
I may need to get less. It's five twenty nine twelve.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
What is it five twenty nine twelve?
Speaker 5 (30:31):
I can't tell. I can't tell if decimate or not.
I may need to get my session beating old?
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Is that five twenty nine twenty.
Speaker 5 (30:37):
Five twenty nine twenty on the street?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
And this one right here is five twenty nine twelve?
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Right?
Speaker 8 (30:42):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Exhibit one fifty seven is what time?
Speaker 5 (30:50):
Five twenty eight fifty four?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Phibit one fifty six.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
Is five twenty seven twenty eight.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Exhibit one fifty five is what time?
Speaker 5 (31:06):
Five twenty seven eighteen?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Exhibit one fifty four?
Speaker 5 (31:16):
Guess what five twenty seven twelve?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
On Exhibit one fifty three.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
And five twenty six fifty.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Seven, Exibit one sixty is.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
Five thirty thirty.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Did you also recover another grouping of photographs from the
memory stick of that dot camera?
Speaker 5 (31:49):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (31:49):
I did.
Speaker 7 (31:57):
How look at that Exhibits one sixty one, one sixty two,
and one sixty three.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Do you recognize those?
Speaker 5 (32:04):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (32:06):
You imag that you also located in.
Speaker 7 (32:08):
The unallocated portion of that memory stick. Yes, move for
the admission of exhibits number one sixty one one sixth period.
Speaker 9 (32:21):
Okaytion exhibits one sixty one, one sixty two and one sixty.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Three year.
Speaker 7 (32:30):
Yourn Look at the exhibit one sixty one.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
What do we look? What do you see there?
Speaker 5 (32:43):
It's the ceiling area and the upper wall portion of
uh the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
What is this over here?
Speaker 5 (32:50):
The door frame?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
And what is this right here?
Speaker 5 (32:56):
This metal look to me looks like the shower area.
It looks what it might be the shower area. I'm
not sure it might be the shower the shower door.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
You mean?
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
And the times.
Speaker 5 (33:09):
Six four eight, five thirty one, fourteen.
Speaker 7 (33:13):
Versus the previous exhibit, which is exhibit number one.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
Sixty it's at five thirty thirty.
Speaker 7 (33:21):
It's approximately about forty five seconds apart.
Speaker 8 (33:25):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (33:28):
When you obtain things or find things and this memory stick,
can you tell whether.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Or not the.
Speaker 7 (33:37):
Photograph is was taken right side up with the camera
right side up or the camera rights upside down?
Speaker 5 (33:43):
I will have to look at the image and I
can determine that.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yes, So you can't do that, Yes, And you can
do that in this case.
Speaker 7 (33:49):
Right, yes, with regard to this particular before we leave it.
This area up here, it's a ceiling, right, yes, you.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Don't see any floor? Do you know what floor trim is?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (34:05):
You do you see any floor trim anywhere here or anything? No?
Just basically see a ceiling, right yes?
Speaker 7 (34:11):
And was this right side up? Was the camera right
side up when this picture was snapped? Or was the
camera upside down?
Speaker 5 (34:18):
Right side up?
Speaker 7 (34:22):
Take a look at the exhibit one sixty two. First
of all, when you when you recovered this photograph, were
you able to know or tell us whether or not
the camera when it snapped this photograph? Was it right
side up or was it upside down?
Speaker 5 (34:44):
It was upside down?
Speaker 2 (34:45):
How do you know that?
Speaker 5 (34:46):
Because when I looked at the original image it was
upside down.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
And this area down here, can you tell what that is?
Speaker 5 (34:56):
That's the floor?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
What this is?
Speaker 5 (35:02):
It's a stain that looks like blood?
Speaker 6 (35:03):
No?
Speaker 2 (35:03):
No, is it the floor?
Speaker 5 (35:04):
Is floor?
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Maybe?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
My question was not? And if we take a.
Speaker 7 (35:10):
Look flooring, I'm sorry, if we take a look at
exhibit number one sixty one, are we looking at a
floor there or.
Speaker 5 (35:20):
Not looking at the ceiling?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
And you've done this issue with cameras and photographs? How
many cases have you worked.
Speaker 12 (35:27):
Involving that.
Speaker 5 (35:29):
Numerous cases?
Speaker 2 (35:30):
When you say numerous, you've worked on one or two
or how many?
Speaker 5 (35:33):
Over one hundred cases dealing with different types of media.
Speaker 7 (35:36):
And with regard to photographs, you've seen many photographs? I yes,
when I say many? How many are many?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
To you?
Speaker 5 (35:44):
Hundreds of thousands?
Speaker 7 (35:46):
And with regard to those, have you been able to
develop an idea, if you will, or an opinion based
on that, having viewed all these hundreds of thousands of photographs,
as to an opinion as to where that camera.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
Was in Exhibit.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
One sixty two, in other words, floor or somewhere else.
Speaker 5 (36:13):
It would have to be off the ground.
Speaker 7 (36:15):
And would it have to be right above the ground
higher off the ground?
Speaker 5 (36:20):
What is your opinion at least to at least three
feet two to three feet?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
And would that be an area that's wasted?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
High?
Speaker 3 (36:28):
It could be?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
And the time here is five thirty two sixteen correct?
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Correct?
Speaker 2 (36:35):
And if we take a.
Speaker 7 (36:36):
Look at Exhibit one's sixty one, how much time has passed?
Speaker 5 (36:41):
Almost a minute?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Actually be like a minute and two seconds? Win it?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
I think.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (36:52):
Then if we take a look at Exhibit one sixty three.
What is this down here?
Speaker 5 (36:57):
That's the floor baseboard.
Speaker 7 (37:02):
And you see a massive s sort right, Yes, and
it looks like it has some reddish lines coming down right.
Speaker 5 (37:12):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (37:15):
Take a look at the exhibit one sixty two. Do
you see any reddish lines there?
Speaker 5 (37:20):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (37:21):
And time on this one, and I think i'd probably
have to give this too because it's really blurry.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
Sixty five thirty one thirty two?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
What would you bring it up closer?
Speaker 5 (37:35):
Maybe? Oh? Six different?
Speaker 8 (37:38):
Now that's it.
Speaker 5 (37:39):
Let me just bring in okay, five thirty three thirty two?
Speaker 7 (37:43):
Sorry, all right?
Speaker 5 (37:46):
And the one before it is what five thirty two sixteen?
Speaker 2 (37:52):
This one? Was it right side up or upside down?
Speaker 5 (37:57):
Upside down?
Speaker 7 (37:58):
And where was the camera, given your expertise, when it
took exhibit number.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
One sixty three on the ground. How about with regard
to Exhibit one's sixty two, where was the camera when.
Speaker 5 (38:10):
It took that photograph on the ground?
Speaker 7 (38:14):
It's part of your investigation in this case. Did you
also happened to examine a computer in this case?
Speaker 8 (38:21):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Where was the computer found at the crime scene that you.
Speaker 5 (38:25):
Examined in the office space on the first floor with.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Regard to a computer, Well, this computer, when were you
able to tell whether it was on or off at
the time that it was taken by the police.
Speaker 5 (38:45):
Prior to me taking it? It was what I call
sleep mode.
Speaker 4 (38:48):
What is sleep mode?
Speaker 5 (38:50):
Basically when you turn on your computer after and it's
a setting on it. After some amount of time that
there's no activity, the monitor would basically shut off. The
monitor goes dark.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
And what's the purpose of that?
Speaker 5 (39:02):
To say battery?
Speaker 2 (39:04):
And this was in sleep mode? Then right?
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (39:09):
And and is this after a certain period of time
that it goes into sleep mode?
Speaker 5 (39:13):
It's a setting.
Speaker 8 (39:13):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (39:15):
And in examining this, were you able to tell when
was the last time that anyone whoever may have been
actually did anything with it, either viewed something, send something?
Speaker 5 (39:30):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (39:31):
When was that?
Speaker 5 (39:32):
I had to look at my report, go.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Ahead and take do you have it there? And on
my yes, look at the three.
Speaker 7 (39:40):
Forty seven which you should report and find it and.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Then let me don't want you to do that so
that we can continue.
Speaker 5 (39:54):
It shows that the well read it to yourself, okay, once.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
You've read it, what time, day and time?
Speaker 5 (40:01):
June fourth, two thousand and eight, fifteen thirty four forty
nine hours, which is three thirty four forty nine pm.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I did you do anything else with regard to this laptop?
It was a laptop, right, Yes?
Speaker 5 (40:17):
What else did you do with regard to it at
the scene? I removed power from it, which is what
we do when we seize it. You've removed power, so
there's nothing else, no other activity. I labeled it and
then I packaged it. I believe I returned the following
day to take it to the evidence section and turn
it into the evidence section.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
One of the things that.
Speaker 7 (40:41):
Some computers have are that there are password protected.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Do you know what that means? Yes?
Speaker 5 (40:47):
What does that mean that you need a password to
gain access to the computer?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Did you need a password to get into the computer
or not?
Speaker 1 (40:56):
No?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
How is it that you can bypass it?
Speaker 5 (40:59):
Because I go and look at the actual data on
the drive, it's not the same that's looking at what
you see on your desktop.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Okay, let me go ahead and have that.
Speaker 7 (41:14):
Did you also have occasion to examine a phone to telephone?
Speaker 5 (41:18):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (41:19):
And what kind of telephone was it?
Speaker 5 (41:21):
Pocket PC?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
And where it was telephone from?
Speaker 5 (41:24):
It was also located in the office.
Speaker 7 (41:27):
And with regard to that, did you happen to look
at the text messages that were.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
On some of them anyway.
Speaker 5 (41:35):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (41:36):
And when I said some of them, were you able
to look at all of them?
Speaker 10 (41:39):
No?
Speaker 2 (41:40):
And were you able to extract when you conducted your examination?
Speaker 7 (41:47):
Were you able to extract the text messages from that
cell phone?
Speaker 5 (41:52):
No?
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Why not?
Speaker 5 (41:54):
There was no technology at the time that could extract it.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
And when we say it extract, what do we mean
remove it, pull it out and put it in a
form that we could look at it.
Speaker 5 (42:04):
Yes, like a piece of paper, either a file or
you could print it out to a piece of paper.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (42:11):
And that was not available at the time though, right, No,
But it has since has since become available, hasn't it.
Speaker 5 (42:17):
Yes, that's my understanding.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
I don't have any questions thinking.
Speaker 10 (42:22):
Cross examination.
Speaker 5 (42:24):
Detective, good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Let me just get set up, all right. I want
to talk to you first about the camera that you examined, okay.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Yes, all right?
Speaker 3 (42:36):
And that camera when you first when you first got it,
you saw that it was in the washer, right, Yes.
And when you saw that it was in the washer,
the camera was all in one piece.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
In other words, the memory stick was inside the camera.
Speaker 5 (42:48):
Yes, it was.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
It had not been taken out prior to you take
or someone else taking it out. Yes, and the camera
when you after you you had to buy a plug
for it or a power source.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
And once you did that, the camera functioned properly as.
Speaker 5 (43:04):
Far as it turned on.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Yes, okay, you didn't have any other issues with the
camera working.
Speaker 5 (43:08):
No.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
And in fact, the camera you showed it to us today,
it's not crushed in any way, right. No, it doesn't
appear that it was stepped on or kicked.
Speaker 5 (43:18):
I couldn't tell if it was kicked.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
No, I'm sorry kick to ruin it. In other words,
it doesn't appear.
Speaker 5 (43:23):
To be It doesn't appear to be ruined.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
No, okay, And it doesn't appear that there's nothing actually
broken on it.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
Is there of the denda button you pressed to take photos?
That's missing on it?
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Right now?
Speaker 5 (43:38):
I'm sorry it dismissing The button to take photos is
not on it.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
It wasn't like that when you examined it, though.
Speaker 5 (43:43):
Right when I examined it, it fell off the camera as
I was handling the camera. That that button that goes
on there fell off and.
Speaker 3 (43:50):
I put it with the camera, all right, And that
button is it sits on the top of the camera.
Speaker 5 (43:54):
Doesn't it. It's like a rubber button, yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
And so if the camera is sitting upside down, do
you suggest in those pictures, those last two pictures taken
on the floor, Yes, that button would be hitting the ground,
wouldn't it.
Speaker 5 (44:09):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (44:10):
All right?
Speaker 3 (44:10):
And the memory stick there was a memory stick inside
the camera.
Speaker 5 (44:14):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
And when you when you got the camera, it wasn't wet,
was it?
Speaker 5 (44:21):
I could not tell I was wearing gloves.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Well, you didn't note anything in your report that it
was wet, right, No, all right? And same with a
memory stick. That didn't appear to be wet either.
Speaker 5 (44:30):
Like I said, I don't know if it was wet
or not because I couldn't touch it hand in hand.
I touched it with gloves on. So if it was moist,
I can tell.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
Okay, But you looked.
Speaker 5 (44:37):
At it, right, Yeah, I didn't see water on it, now.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
All right.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
And you didn't note anything in your report about it
being wet. No, didn't smell like bleach, did it?
Speaker 5 (44:46):
I can't recall.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
Okay, Well, if it smelled weird like that, If it
smelled like bleach, you would have noted that.
Speaker 10 (44:51):
In your report.
Speaker 5 (44:51):
Right, I'm not sure really.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
If it was something unusual about the camera, you don't
think you would have known.
Speaker 7 (45:00):
Don't know.
Speaker 5 (45:00):
I'm trying to I don't want to be mean, but
there was other smells in that location at the time.
I don't think I could smell bleach.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
Okay, Well, let's talk about when you didn't actually do
your forensic review in the house, right, Okay, So at
some point later when you're doing your forensic review, you
never noticed any funny smell like bleach coming from the camp.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
No, No, not at that time though, all right.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
And the memory stick that also didn't appear to be
crushed in any way. No, didn't look like somebody smashed
it or anything.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
No.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
I tried to break it wasn't bent. All right, the pictures,
I'm gonna talk to you a little bit about the
pictures that we just looked at of mister Alexander in
the shower. Okay, yes, all right, these pictures it appears.
Speaker 13 (45:52):
Let's see, and I think you noted it in your
report too.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
The pictures begin of mister Alexander in the shower at
five twenty two twenty four, yes, all right, and that's
five twenty two in the afternoon, Yes, on June fourth,
that's correct. And in this time period of five twenty
two up till five point thirty, there's many pictures taken
in mister Alexander in the shower.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Right, correct.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
And some of his poses are in different places, aren't they.
I mean in different positions, different positions. In other words,
he's able to turn one way and then turn another. Yes,
And on these pictures it doesn't appear that he's injured
(46:49):
in any way, right no, And at least in the
beginning of these pictures, it doesn't appear that he's involved
in any altercation, right no. And I know that we
can see in some of the pictures you can see
the right side of his face, yes, right, And then
in other pictures you can see the left side of
his face.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Yes, And that's because.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
He turned around, right, yes, sir.
Speaker 10 (47:12):
And I'm showing you.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
Exhibit number one forty eight.
Speaker 4 (47:19):
All right.
Speaker 3 (47:19):
This is Exhibit one forty eight where we see the
left side of mister Alexander's face.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yes, And you can.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
See the water running off the back of his head,
is that right?
Speaker 5 (47:27):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (47:28):
And that would be consistent with the faucet being behind him. Yeah,
all right, and then also there were other pictures taken
what appear to be taken on that day, on June fourth, right, Yes,
there's pictures taken earlier in the day, correctly, And those
are those pictures that we saw of mister Alexander and
(47:50):
some of miss Arias, the nude photos. Yes, and those
only some of those time stamped right from.
Speaker 5 (48:03):
Whatever cod is.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
Okay, Well, when I see timestamped, I mean only you
were able to get information from the forensic program you
used to get those pictures, right.
Speaker 5 (48:11):
Right, from the data that the camera that it in
the file.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
Right, So, in other words, the information that that's on
those pictures, the red writing that actually comes from your
forensic program.
Speaker 5 (48:22):
Not the red writing itself, the information does.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
Oh did you put the red writing on it? No,
somebody else did then.
Speaker 5 (48:29):
I don't know, I think put red writing on it
all right, do.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
You disagree that that's the time of those pictures?
Speaker 5 (48:35):
That's the accurate time?
Speaker 3 (48:36):
Okay, those pictures. Okay, so those pictures, we saw them,
and I don't think we need to see him again.
But obviously there's a picture of mister Alexander, right, you
can see his face in one of those pictures. You ever,
and obviously there's a picture of miss Arias in those pictures, right, correct,
(48:57):
And at least one of those photos you can see
her face correct, and so anyone and in those pictures.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (49:09):
Then we get to the picture showing you Exhibit number
one fifty nine.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Okay, and I.
Speaker 3 (49:16):
Believe you testified on direct that it appeared that mister
Alexander was seated in this picture. Yes, and you can
tell that because his arms are out like this.
Speaker 5 (49:24):
By the position of him, it appears that he's sitting.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
Yes, okay, Well it looks really similar to the position
in exhibit number one sixty, doesn't it with his arms out?
Speaker 5 (49:34):
Correct?
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (49:35):
And one's sixty is just as though the camera just
didn't mean to take it. It's obviously not in his face, right,
camera sustained the picture is not of mister Alexander's face, correct,
all right. And then in an exhibit actually, let's look
at it on more time an exhibit one sixty. That
time is five thirty and thirty seconds correct. And then
(50:01):
at the next picture in the order, Oh, that's hard
to see. Can you see the time on that?
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (50:05):
Yes, five thirty one fourteen okay, five thirty one fourteen.
That's the next picture photo taken right?
Speaker 5 (50:11):
Correct?
Speaker 2 (50:12):
And I believe you.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
Testified on direct that that you believe in your expert
opinion that that photo is taken about two to three
off two to three feet off the.
Speaker 5 (50:21):
Ground, Yes, based on the angle that you.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
See, okay, and that that's based on your experience in
dealing with media type of cases, right, yes, okay. And
it's blurry, isn't it correct? It appears because of the blurry,
and because it's not focused on anything, it appears to
be an unintentional picture, wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 5 (50:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (50:49):
All right?
Speaker 3 (50:49):
And then just over a minute later, at five thirty
two sixteen, we're looking at exhibit number one sixty two,
and this is the picture where you can see what
would appear to be blood or some type of a
substance coming down the right hand side of mister Alexander.
Speaker 10 (51:07):
Right.
Speaker 3 (51:07):
Yes, And in your report you said it appears that
he's ceased in this photo. Yes, And this is just
a minute or this is just a little over a minute,
isn't it? After the unintentional photo of the ceiling.
Speaker 5 (51:24):
Based on what I can't recalled exact time, So I
was here I'll have to take your word that it
is over a minute, okare.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
I just want to make sure you know that one
the ceiling is five thirty one fourteen correct, okay, and
then the next picture is five thirty two sixteen. Yes, okay,
I did the math right, Okay, okay, just checking because
you know, all right. And when we see the picture
of mister Alexander on the floor, the one at five
(51:54):
thirty two, which is exhibit number one sixty two, yes,
you believe in your expert opinion that the care is
on the floor at that time.
Speaker 5 (52:02):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
And not only is it on the floor, but it's
flipped upside down. So if someone even wanted to, they
certainly couldn't reach the button to take a photo, right, No,
because the button's on the ground.
Speaker 5 (52:15):
Would have to be yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (52:18):
And same thing with the next photo in sequence, which
is another picture of the hallway zip at number one
sixty three, taken at five thirty three thirty two. That
also is where the camera is upside down. Yes, and
again if the camera's upside down, then that means that
the photo the button to take the photo is on
(52:40):
the ground. Yes, all right, you talked just briefly about
this pocket PC which is a phone. Yes, Yeah, you
were able to look at it, right, Yes, and you
were able to power it on, yes, And so because
you were able to power it on, you were able
to look and see if there were text mess and
other things on that phone.
Speaker 14 (53:01):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (53:02):
But you said that you weren't able to extract anything
off the phone, correct. And when you say extract, that's
a forensic word, right, more or less? Yes, So in
other words, you couldn't plug it into anything to download
what was on the phone onto something else, correct, all right,
But you could have taken pictures of what was on
the phone, right, It depends. Well, I mean, if you
(53:26):
had a camera, which I'm sure mesa police department does,
you could have snapped photos of each text message if
you wanted to.
Speaker 5 (53:32):
Write my recollection, there were over fifteen thousand text messages
on that phone, so that's quite a few, not quite
a few, plenty, okay.
Speaker 3 (53:40):
So but there was nothing stopping you from reviewing that
and taking pictures of the text messages.
Speaker 5 (53:47):
If I had eight months.
Speaker 3 (53:49):
To do just that, maybe, okay, But physically it's possible,
isn't it.
Speaker 5 (53:54):
Yeah, if I was given eight months to do it.
Speaker 3 (53:55):
Yes, okay, all right. Then you also you also looked
at the laptop, right, yes, And this was a laptop
when you walked onto the scene. This was the laptop
that was in the den.
Speaker 5 (54:13):
I was told that was his office and it was
a desk. It looked like an office to me.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (54:17):
So this office, this was right off the garage entryways,
wasn't it.
Speaker 10 (54:22):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (54:22):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (54:23):
And do you remember that next to the office across
the hallway was a bathroom.
Speaker 5 (54:28):
I don't be called the bathroom when I showed the
dollars closed and I just didn't.
Speaker 3 (54:31):
See it, okay, But this was this office was on
the first floor, right yes. And when you walked into
the office, this laptop was plugged in. It had a
power source.
Speaker 5 (54:43):
It did have a power sauce.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
Yes, all right.
Speaker 3 (54:45):
And when we talk about power source, that means it
was plugged in, right yes. And then you were able
to do a forensic examination of this particular laptop. Yes,
And when just the worst the laptop you've based on
some of the information you found, you believed it belonged
(55:05):
to mister Alexander, right, correct. And it's a compact cresario.
Speaker 5 (55:10):
Yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
One of the things that you have noted in your
report you say product ID and it said virus alert.
What does that mean to you?
Speaker 5 (55:22):
Product ID is just the ID number for and I
had to look at my report to tell you.
Speaker 3 (55:28):
But oh, I think I have it up here, judge
my ever, it's just at the top of that.
Speaker 5 (55:36):
Yeah, I don't know what that stand for. South. Usually
a product ID would be the ID number of the
operating system.
Speaker 3 (55:45):
So if it says virus alert there, does that mean
that there was a virus going on?
Speaker 5 (55:48):
It could be that that's just what was written in there.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (55:52):
Okay, did you do any further investigation about it?
Speaker 5 (55:55):
I did not see any signs of viruses on the computer.
Speaker 3 (55:57):
Dannel, Okay, But I mean you did investigate any further
as to what that meant product ID virus alert.
Speaker 5 (56:04):
By looking at the computer and checking for viruses, which
I did, I did not see anyone.
Speaker 3 (56:09):
Okay, Now the laptop. Let's see. Along with the laptop,
there was also a bunch of CDs that were taken
to from the den from his office. Yes, yes, from
the office. And you eventually looked at those CDs as well, Yes,
And based on your examination, and I'm looking looking at
(56:33):
the middle of the page on your report there, the
same page that we just looked at. Okay, you said,
based on your examination, the last exula proceed all right.
Based on your examination, the last activity on that particular
laptop was on June fourth, two thousand and eight, at
(56:57):
about sixteen fifty four in the after sixteen fifty four, yes, okay,
And sixteen fifty four is military time for fifty four, right,
all right, So at about four fifty four in the afternoon,
that's the last time that that laptop was accessed.
Speaker 5 (57:13):
Last time I saw any signs of activity on it
as far as being used.
Speaker 3 (57:17):
Okay, So any time any sign of activity as far
as being used that can be using it to view CDs.
Speaker 5 (57:24):
Using it to go on in andet. Based on looking
at it, I could see that there was activity that someone
had to to initiate, Okay.
Speaker 3 (57:31):
So you could tell that. So you know, in your expertise,
in your expert opinion, you know that this laptop was
last accessed at almost close to five PM on June fourth. Yes,
and based on the timing of the photos, that would
be about twenty twenty five minutes prior to the photos
beginning right the shower photos. Yes, So you talked a
(57:55):
little bit about the photos. Some of the photos that
you recovered that they had and deleted, they were actually deleted, yes,
but you don't have any knowledge about when they were deleted.
Speaker 5 (58:06):
No.
Speaker 3 (58:09):
And some of the photos. Hold on one second, the
photos that were taken in the afternoon, the nude photos, Yes,
those appeared to be taken by a person, right, Yes,
and based on the timing, there's no reason to believe
that they were auto timed photos. Preset photos. I couldn't tell,
(58:34):
but it doesn't appear to be non okay, And from
the angles of the photos, it certainly appears that they
were taken by someone else. Yes, all right, thank you.
Speaker 2 (58:43):
Nothing further than.
Speaker 11 (58:46):
Redirect.
Speaker 7 (58:48):
So one of the things that you were asked about
was the photograph involving mister Alexander and when he was sitting.
Speaker 4 (58:55):
Down if you remember that one.
Speaker 15 (58:56):
Yes, the series of.
Speaker 2 (58:59):
The photographs him in the shower, right, yes, let's take
it out. That would be exhibit number one sixty right, Yes,
what's the time on that?
Speaker 5 (59:11):
Five thirty thirty?
Speaker 7 (59:13):
And then we have another photograph, which is exhibit one
sixty one.
Speaker 2 (59:18):
This is the one that you told us was of
the ceiling, right, yes, and the time on.
Speaker 5 (59:22):
That is what five point thirty one fourteen?
Speaker 2 (59:25):
So how much time differences are between them.
Speaker 5 (59:30):
A little bit more than a minute?
Speaker 2 (59:31):
About a minute less?
Speaker 5 (59:33):
Pardon about forty five seconds or so during that time?
Speaker 7 (59:37):
During those forty five seconds, do you know what was happening? No,
and let me just look at the camera.
Speaker 6 (59:45):
Yeah, okay, in regard to this particular camera, and you
said that it was forty five seconds, right, yes?
Speaker 2 (59:56):
Did that take forty five seconds?
Speaker 10 (59:57):
Sir? Evidence that was just dropped on the floor.
Speaker 9 (01:00:04):
Reces, I mean the afternoon recess at this time, Ladies
and gentlemen, please be back in the designated area ten
minutes after three, and we will start promptly.
Speaker 11 (01:00:11):
At that time, please be seated. The record will show
the jury has left the courtroom.
Speaker 10 (01:00:23):
All right, your objection judge it.
Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
One, First of all, it's evidence, and it shouldn't be
ruined after it's already admitted into evidence and being taken
the chance of being broken. Two, it's an improper demonstration.
He's testifying instead of actually asking the question.
Speaker 10 (01:00:37):
Mister Martinez.
Speaker 7 (01:00:39):
Don't think if there's any legal process that defense counsel
has cited for you for the demonstration where something is dropped,
because if there were, there would be many instances where
people would be sanctioned when items were dropped, whether inadvertently
or intentionally, on the ground. I would note that in
this particular case carpet there it was dropped for approximately
(01:01:02):
one to two feet. So there is nothing improper about
a camera that has been made available to the defense
for testing, that has been tested by the state, and
there are no more tests to be conducted.
Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
So I don't see any.
Speaker 7 (01:01:16):
Legal reason that Council has cited indicating that it is
improper for the prosecutor to drop the camera as he did.
Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
The legal reasoning is it's improper for a prosecutor on
direct examination to be testifying rather than asking a question,
and so when he's dropping the camera, he's trying to
demonstrate something I'm not sure which, but it's testifying rather
than asking the detective a question like how long it
would take to fall. Furthermore, the fact that testing has
been done on this camera doesn't make it any better
(01:01:48):
for him to ruin evidence after it's already been admitted.
We all know that we can't even draw on evidence,
draw diagram after it's been admitted. Much less break it.
And at this point, if there's anything broken on this
camera and now the jury could possibly can attribute it
to the fact that, well, maybe it was like that
at the scene. So I would ask the court who
admonish the state to not ruin any evidence that has
(01:02:09):
already been admitted.
Speaker 11 (01:02:11):
All right, your objections noted for the record.
Speaker 9 (01:02:13):
The answer of the witness will stand. Mister Martinez and
all counsel. If you intend to use evidence for demonstrative
purposes in the future, please approach the bench first so
that if there are any objections, they can be made
on the record before you use the evidence in that manner.
Speaker 15 (01:02:29):
Want to take a reason to make a record on
the mistrial motion for prosky to ormous conduct.
Speaker 5 (01:02:35):
Do you want to do that after the break or now?
Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
Let's do it now, your honor.
Speaker 15 (01:02:40):
And I do not have the exact date, but in
prior pleadings, when miss Arius had requested copies of the
text messages, the state had constant refrain in these things
was that we were asking for things that didn't exist
in previous testimony. Detective Melendez was on the stand and
(01:03:01):
he was asked if he looked through these messages.
Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
Mister Rereman.
Speaker 9 (01:03:07):
Before you proceed, I'm going to ask the witness to
please step down and out of the courtroom.
Speaker 10 (01:03:12):
Argument is occurring.
Speaker 3 (01:03:13):
Please return in approximately ten minutes.
Speaker 9 (01:03:21):
Waitness has left the court and meet you may proceed.
Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
Thank you.
Speaker 15 (01:03:24):
Apart from again the state's assertions and emotion that these
didn't exist and the resistance of providing these in discovery,
and this has been going on for over a year now.
The detective Melendez on June eighteenth, twenty ten, we were
(01:03:47):
in front of Judge Duncan. He was asked related to
text messages and emails, did you look through everything that
came up?
Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
Is that correct? Yes?
Speaker 5 (01:04:01):
But you did not make notice specific.
Speaker 15 (01:04:03):
Content nor did you print out of any content he says,
Is that correct? Either emails or text messages? He says either.
He says no. But then again in the prior testimony
in January, he had talked about going through every single email.
Here during the course of this trial, he says he
(01:04:23):
didn't have time to go everything.
Speaker 5 (01:04:25):
That would take eight months.
Speaker 15 (01:04:27):
So clearly now the testimony has changed based on what
Detective Melendez has told us. These test messages existed in
two thousand and eight when he first retrieved the phone.
That is in direct contrast to the state's prior pleadings
and his testimony today regarding what he did with the
(01:04:49):
text messages is a direct contrast with what he said before.
Of most prominence to this situation, of course, is what
the state has done in terms of asserting that these
messages didn't exist in face and miss areas, has continued
discovery requests. And what I would say to you now is,
having heard the detective sworn testimony a trial, that we
(01:05:12):
have a deceit on the state's part regarding to the
existence of these text messages when they were inquired about
back in two thousand and nine to twenty ten, which
motivated these hearings in front of Judge Duncan, and your honor,
we have put forth motions a prosecutory misconduct in front
of Judge Duncan at that time. We have renewed it
(01:05:33):
again now or excuse me, prior to now, in previously
had written motions and I would renew that again. And
I think what I would remind the court is, and
I can't cite the exact case at this point in time,
but one of the things we look for is the
com cumulative effect of the misconduct, and the misconduct in
this case is growing, warranting a mistrial.
Speaker 11 (01:05:57):
It's Martinez.
Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
Must keep in mind that this issue has already been litigated.
Not only has it been litigated, it has been litigated
at nauseum before Judge Duncan. And at some point there
has to be a.
Speaker 7 (01:06:13):
Duty of candor that the court has to take notice of.
Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
On behalf of the defense counsel, why didn't he cite you?
Speaker 7 (01:06:22):
If he's going to make this motion and accuse somebody
of deceit, why doesn't he cite you. To the transcript
of Detective Malendus, I don't know who he's talking about
when he talks about Detective Flores, this issue involves Detective Malendis.
Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Perhaps all Hispanics. Their names sound alike to him.
Speaker 7 (01:06:36):
But the bottom line with regard I'm not done yet
with regard to this issue, there is a duty of candor,
and the duty of candor applies to both sides. This
issue was litigated over and over and over again without
reference to the transcript. At that time, Detective Melendus indicated
(01:06:56):
that he couldn't get these text message. He could look
at them, but he couldn't get them in the sense
that he couldn't extract them so that he.
Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
Could print them out and give them to somebody.
Speaker 7 (01:07:08):
That's what he testified to He also testified that he
looked at some of them, but if they wanted him
to take photographs that it would take him too long
for him to do that. Subsequent to that, and what
is going to be shown on redirect is that technology
was developed. After the technology was developed, there was eight
hundred and ninety six pages of text messages that were obtained.
(01:07:32):
There was approximately between twenty five and thirty text messages
for page. I don't know if that equals twenty or
thirty thousand text messages, but it would have been impossible
for him to sit there and take a photograph of
each text message unless he had months and months to
do it, and they were not going to do that.
So the bottom line for the state is these motions
(01:07:53):
for reconsideration, where they're highly inflammatory, without anything to be
backing them up, at some point require a measure from
the prosecutor to say other than what he has only
said up to this point. Is that the record speak
for itself. The record speaks for itself, and the record
speaks for itself, and if there's any to see, it
involves the duty of candor of counsel.
Speaker 9 (01:08:14):
Thank you, mister Martinez. I want to make sure I
understand what you just said. When a technology became available,
these text messages were retrieved from the phone and made
available to defense counsel.
Speaker 11 (01:08:27):
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
That's true? That was approximately two years ago.
Speaker 10 (01:08:32):
All right, mister Nurmi.
Speaker 15 (01:08:34):
What happened in the pleadings. We talk about duty of candor.
What happened in the pleadings, And I might add inflammatory
comments regarding from the prosecutor, the defense councilor totally inappropriate
and demonstrative of the continued prosecutorial misconduct that we're experiencing
in this case. What the state said, not that there
(01:08:54):
was no technology or anything else. What they said in pleadings.
Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
He's right.
Speaker 15 (01:08:58):
I don't have the exact pleading right now, but that
they didn't exist. We kept asking for them in motion.
He said that they did not exist. That was the
response from the state. It's the cont seems to be
the constant referring to all this. There was nothing about
technology or updates or what have you. As a matter
of fact, when and I will refer the court back
to the testimony in regard to waiting this issue on
(01:09:23):
January tenth of twenty ten and April twentieth of twenty ten,
because this was subject of much litigation, and the court
can go back to the records of those proceedings in
front of Judge Duncan, and what we will see is
the detective Milandez did testify to something different now than
what he testified to back then.
Speaker 8 (01:09:44):
Then.
Speaker 15 (01:09:44):
He testified to, I looked at a few, I didn't
photograph any. There weren't any on there and I just
gave it back to Detective Flores.
Speaker 5 (01:09:52):
I didn't take any photographs.
Speaker 15 (01:09:54):
He did not talk about seeing all these messages because
back then that would have motivated inquiry as to why
they weren't handed over. And what we have now now
that we're in trial, the story changes. And again, Judge,
when we talk about candor, we've had demonstration throughout the
(01:10:15):
course of this trial that what was supposedly true to
the state when they were asserting a denial of discovery
motions in twenty ten has now changed in two thousand
and thirteen when we get to trial and there is
a candor problem called prosecutorial misconduct, it is cumulative and
it does warrant in this trial.
Speaker 9 (01:10:34):
In the case J Jeremy, have you had these text
messages for two years.
Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
Or approximately two years?
Speaker 15 (01:10:41):
Yes, well, I can't say it was subject to litigation
in twenty ten. I don't know when we got them
in twenty ten. We do have them, but that's not
the point. The point is the fact that we're hearing
testimony now that they were available in two thousand and eight,
and in twenty ten, when this litigation was going on,
the state denied their existence. That's the point. They were
(01:11:04):
eventually forced through Judge Duncan's order and through this extensive litigation,
they were eventually ordered to turn those over. But prior
to that, they claimed that they did not exist. What
we heard today was that they did. In fact, is
this in two thousand and eight and when Detective Melendez
did his record, and.
Speaker 9 (01:11:23):
What prejudice did your client suffer as a result.
Speaker 15 (01:11:27):
Judge the prejudice to my client?
Speaker 5 (01:11:31):
Obviously, we.
Speaker 15 (01:11:33):
Have Brady violations, your honor, We have Braady violations to
which I don't and obviously I.
Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
Haven't had time to brief this issue.
Speaker 15 (01:11:40):
I don't know that prejudices required under Brady violation when
there is direct hiding of exculpatory evidence, because we will
see later these text messages, and we put it in
pleadings that there are text messages of a sexually graphic
nature that are exculpatory, that demonstrate the abuse of nature
of the relationship. This caused I might add a great
(01:12:03):
deal of delay in this trial because it took months
of litigation for the State to turn over what they
already have. This is why we're part of the reason
why we're doing this trial in twenty thirteen instead of
twenty ten, because we had to litigate it, and once
we did, then our experts were confronted with thousands of
(01:12:23):
text messages. There was probably more than eight hundred pages.
I can't speak to that directly, but there were thousands
of text messages, emails.
Speaker 5 (01:12:30):
I have notebooks full of them.
Speaker 15 (01:12:31):
All that needed to be covered because the state back
in two thousand and eight did not come forward and
provide these two miss areas.
Speaker 2 (01:12:40):
All right.
Speaker 9 (01:12:40):
Well, I obviously did not preside over the evident tary
hearing in twenty ten, so I will need to go
back and look at Judge Duncan's ruling and the pleadings
related to that evident try hearing. I will give you
an opportunity to provide additional support for your motion in
the form of transcripts or anything else that you would
like the court to review the same the state if
(01:13:00):
there's anything else. So I will take your motion for
mistrial under advisement, and once I have had an opportunity
to look at these materials, I will roll. We're going
to take the recess hold and let's we're back in
the record. The record will show the presence of the
defendant and all counsel. The jury is not present, Miss Wilmot, I.
Speaker 3 (01:13:19):
Really add to the record regarding the camera being dropped
that it also is important with regard to any future
technological processes that might be done if there's any appella review. Okay,
your record.
Speaker 15 (01:13:28):
Is made and judgment, yes you may, all.
Speaker 9 (01:13:34):
Right, let's bring in the jury.
Speaker 11 (01:13:39):
Please be seated.
Speaker 9 (01:13:40):
The record will show the presence of the jury, the defendant,
and all counsel.
Speaker 11 (01:13:44):
You may continue.
Speaker 5 (01:13:46):
Your name off. So Michael Melendez, Sir, before the break,
we were talking about the camera and the time on Exhibits.
Speaker 7 (01:13:55):
One sixty and one sixty one, and you told me
that know by looking at it that it's approximately forty.
Speaker 2 (01:14:02):
Four seconds, right, Yes, do.
Speaker 7 (01:14:03):
You know anything that was going on just by examining
the camera and the photographs? Do you know anything that
was going on in those forty four seconds? No, anything
that you can tell us. It's what speculation on your part.
Speaker 5 (01:14:15):
It would be.
Speaker 8 (01:14:16):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (01:14:17):
With regard to the camera, one of the things that
you were asked about is whether whether or not the
camera can take photographs upside down. And we were talking
about Exhibits one sixty two and Exhibits one sixty three.
Do you remember that, Yes, the camera.
Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
Is exhibit what take that out please? And you indicated
that the photographs that I've just referenced were taken when
the camera was upside down. Yes, put it upside down
on the counter there got put somewhere just in front
(01:14:57):
of you right there in press on it and would
it be consistent or is it possible to take a
photograph with the camera that way?
Speaker 5 (01:15:08):
Yes, it would be.
Speaker 2 (01:15:09):
What are you required to do?
Speaker 5 (01:15:11):
It takes very little movement of the.
Speaker 2 (01:15:13):
Camera, So what are you required to do?
Speaker 5 (01:15:16):
Press the button down?
Speaker 2 (01:15:18):
And can you press it down with your hand?
Speaker 5 (01:15:20):
Not when it's upside down with.
Speaker 2 (01:15:22):
Put your hand on the top.
Speaker 5 (01:15:23):
Can you press it down, yes.
Speaker 2 (01:15:25):
Can you press it down with your foot? Sure? Can
you press it with any other part of your body
so that the mechanism that takes the photograph is engaged.
Speaker 5 (01:15:34):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (01:15:34):
You were asked about the previous photographs of the mister
Alexander in the shower.
Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
Do you remember those for example?
Speaker 5 (01:15:42):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (01:15:44):
And you were asked whether or not there were any
injuries there?
Speaker 5 (01:15:47):
Right, Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 7 (01:15:50):
And with regard to let's just pick one exhibit Exhibit
one sixty eight, which is part of the other photographs,
any injuries in those?
Speaker 5 (01:15:57):
No?
Speaker 2 (01:15:58):
And how about with regard.
Speaker 7 (01:15:59):
To exhibit one sixty two, any injuries there?
Speaker 5 (01:16:06):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (01:16:07):
You were asked about the smell of chlorox Are you
familiar with that?
Speaker 8 (01:16:10):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (01:16:11):
Are you familiar with washing clothing?
Speaker 5 (01:16:13):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (01:16:14):
When you put chlorox in, does it stay in there constantly?
Or is there a process whereby soap is added as
part of the washing process?
Speaker 1 (01:16:21):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (01:16:22):
Is there also softener at it as part of that process?
And if it's run through and you get to the
very end, are the clothes going to smell like chlorox?
Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
Not?
Speaker 1 (01:16:31):
Mine?
Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
No, pardon mine?
Speaker 1 (01:16:33):
Do not know.
Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
The purpose of putting?
Speaker 1 (01:16:37):
Well, I'll look at that.
Speaker 2 (01:16:43):
The issue of the text messages.
Speaker 5 (01:16:45):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (01:16:46):
If you were asked whether or not you looked at
some of the text messages, did.
Speaker 4 (01:16:49):
You look at some of the text messages?
Speaker 8 (01:16:51):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
Did you look at all of the text messages?
Speaker 5 (01:16:54):
No?
Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
Why not?
Speaker 5 (01:16:56):
There are too many?
Speaker 2 (01:16:57):
And you said that it would take a substantial period
of time.
Speaker 7 (01:17:01):
How much time would you have estimated that it would
have taken you to look at.
Speaker 2 (01:17:05):
All of those text messages and photograph each one individually?
Speaker 5 (01:17:09):
I would estimate if I did nothing else other than
just that doing my entire shift, it would have probably
taken me eight months or so.
Speaker 7 (01:17:17):
And subsequent to that, though, was there a technology that
was developed that made it possible to extract those text messages?
Speaker 5 (01:17:25):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
And was that done in this case to my understanding, yes,
So the answer is yesterday that the computer I must
I mis heard.
Speaker 7 (01:17:35):
When was the last time that there was any activity there?
Speaker 5 (01:17:40):
Well, the last time there was any activity that I
saw that was done by someone causing activity on the
computer using it was on six four, two thousand and eight,
at sixteen fifty four hours, sixteen fifty four, which is
just four fifty four pm.
Speaker 6 (01:17:56):
All right, You do you.
Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
Remember what activity that was?
Speaker 5 (01:18:03):
I don't remember the specific activity, but it would be
something that would lead me to believe that a user
was using it, whether it be someone going on the
internet or something to that effect. It would be someone
showing me on the on the when I'm analyzing it.
That was someone using it.
Speaker 2 (01:18:17):
And you check that computer to see whether or not
there were any viruses? Right, yes, and were you able
to find it?
Speaker 10 (01:18:22):
No.
Speaker 7 (01:18:23):
The other issue that you were asked about was with
regard to these photographs, all of them, you were asked
well about when they were deleted?
Speaker 2 (01:18:31):
Do you remember that?
Speaker 8 (01:18:32):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (01:18:33):
With regard to let's start with this one right here,
Exhibit one sixty two, see the date of the time there. Yes,
was that photograph deleted before five thirty two sixteen?
Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
No, when was it deleted in relationship to that time?
Speaker 5 (01:18:49):
It would have to be after it was taken.
Speaker 7 (01:18:51):
And the same thing with regard to Exhibit one sixty three.
Was it deleted before or after five thirty three thirty two?
Speaker 5 (01:19:03):
It will be after.
Speaker 7 (01:19:05):
And in order to delete that how many steps would
it take if they were just deleting one at a
time five And if they were deleting both of them,
and they were doing it one at a time, how
many steps forty.
Speaker 5 (01:19:16):
Take it would take the five initial steps and then
you will probably another two or three wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
And so it would be seven or eight then right?
Speaker 1 (01:19:26):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (01:19:26):
And if if you were going to then delete this
other one individually? How many more steps are we talking about?
Speaker 2 (01:19:31):
Total?
Speaker 5 (01:19:32):
At least another two and three so total another maybe
twelve ten.
Speaker 2 (01:19:37):
I don't have any other questions.
Speaker 9 (01:19:40):
Does any member of the jury have a question for
this witness?
Speaker 11 (01:19:45):
I see no hands, think you may step down?
Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
Thank you statement, call us next witness, you take the
furs and stead.
Speaker 11 (01:19:57):
De take if you are still under rowth.
Speaker 9 (01:19:59):
Do you understand.
Speaker 2 (01:20:01):
Your neighbor it steven floats and you're the same individual test.
Speaker 4 (01:20:06):
Type for you?
Speaker 12 (01:20:07):
Do you say practice?
Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
Yes, you were talking about a plastication put at.
Speaker 4 (01:20:11):
The residence Brack that at the residence where mister.
Speaker 2 (01:20:15):
Alexander was found. Didn't remember that one?
Speaker 4 (01:20:18):
I'm gonna show you, uh.
Speaker 2 (01:20:20):
Two twenty one? Do you recognize this telephonia a cop
I mean, anything to do with that residence?
Speaker 5 (01:20:31):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (01:20:32):
And is that the telephone that was retrieved from the residents? Yes,
it was I remember for the admission.
Speaker 7 (01:20:37):
Of exhibit two twenty one, did.
Speaker 3 (01:20:42):
You say two two one? Or three two one two
two one two two two.
Speaker 4 (01:20:48):
Just look at it.
Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
See what list like about ganging and alcos container and
that's it crack. Yes, sir, John, your attention back to
July fifteenth of two.
Speaker 7 (01:21:05):
Thousand and eight. We previously talked about a conversation that
uh you had with the defendant, correct, yes. And previously
we also.
Speaker 2 (01:21:13):
Talked about whether or not you had read her Miranda warnings, right, yes,
and we played that day correct yes.
Speaker 1 (01:21:19):
Correct.
Speaker 4 (01:21:20):
As a part of that conversation, though, you you had,
you spoke to.
Speaker 2 (01:21:24):
Her about others, right, yes, I did. Initially before the
Miranda warnings were read, you asked her if she was
willing to sit down.
Speaker 5 (01:21:36):
With you, right, yes, I did, and she gave you.
Speaker 2 (01:21:38):
An answer, right yes. Does that set out in exhibit
number three forty eight.
Speaker 5 (01:21:47):
Yes, the initiative.
Speaker 7 (01:21:51):
Exhibit three forty eight.
Speaker 11 (01:21:57):
Three thirty eight is admitted.
Speaker 1 (01:22:07):
Everybody wants to know, okay, and you know, and so
I'm gonna ask you some questions you can voluntarily answered
if you want, mkay. Is that cool? Sir?
Speaker 4 (01:22:27):
At some point in the conversation, did you've talked to
her about whether or not.
Speaker 16 (01:22:34):
The defendant had a tribute to the a victim in
terms of photographs.
Speaker 4 (01:22:39):
Of Facebook in my space. A.
Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
So whether or not she'd had written a letter uh
to this auDA, Yes.
Speaker 4 (01:22:48):
Take a look at the Is it a number.
Speaker 2 (01:22:53):
Prefif is that work? Is this exhibit where she talks
about that issue? Yes, I do it. Objection three fifty
(01:23:13):
is admitted.
Speaker 10 (01:23:20):
Yeah. I know that a lot of people have been
posting on Facebook really nice things, you know, and memories,
and at one point I was like, well, maybe.
Speaker 8 (01:23:29):
I should do that.
Speaker 10 (01:23:30):
So I posted this thing and I just said all
my memories, and I realized looking back on it that
it was kind of kind of sounded immature. So it's
more like my dear Travis kind of letter, And so
I took it down because yeah, some of it was detailed,
more personal, not too personal, nothing inappropriate, just I just
(01:23:52):
felt funny. I think because I'm a photographer, I tend
to communicate more with the pictures. So I posted a
ton of pictures that I had of him, and I
have a ton more that I just can't access right now,
and videos and things that I know his family would want.
But so I posted pictures and I took that down,
and I posted something last week, but other than that.
(01:24:14):
I've been on Facebook in my space a lot, looking
at his profile, looking at his pictures, reading things about
his obituaries and any news updates. And you know, there's
legacy dot com where you can write something about him.
Speaker 7 (01:24:32):
It's part of this conversation that you had with her
again on July fifteenth. Did you then talk to her
about her move.
Speaker 12 (01:24:40):
To Mason and where she.
Speaker 4 (01:24:41):
Went and where she moved and.
Speaker 2 (01:24:44):
How was that she fought her place?
Speaker 5 (01:24:46):
Yes, so I did.
Speaker 2 (01:24:49):
They can look at uh exhibit three fifty one. Is
that set out in this exhibit? Yes, moving the admission
of okay, A three fifty one is admitted.
Speaker 1 (01:25:18):
Well, let's move to after the breakup?
Speaker 10 (01:25:20):
Oh okay, what.
Speaker 1 (01:25:24):
What kept you in Mesa at that point?
Speaker 10 (01:25:29):
I actually moved to Mesa a few weeks after we
broke up, really, I mean as far as the timeline goes,
but I mean, if you want to call it our
official break up, shortly thereafter, it's like we were still seeing.
Speaker 1 (01:25:42):
So you guys were seeing each other, but it was
a long distance type relationship.
Speaker 10 (01:25:46):
It was always long distance. When we were officially dating.
We didn't re dated. We dated from about the beginning
of February to about.
Speaker 1 (01:25:52):
The end of June, so February March.
Speaker 10 (01:25:55):
What made June about five months till?
Speaker 1 (01:25:57):
Okay, in June two thousand seven, that's broke up and
and then he moved to Masa.
Speaker 10 (01:26:05):
Yeah, I moved to Mesa sort of most people when
they break up, they kindly go there. I know where,
and there was in we plans were already in order
for me to move there. I was already speaking with
a friend who was, you know, was gonna be her roommate,
and I was her roommate for.
Speaker 12 (01:26:21):
A short time.
Speaker 10 (01:26:25):
She's kind of flighty s She's a great girl. Though
I had talked to Travis about maybe going to southern
California instead, Okay, and he's really he's he's really persuasive,
you persuade you to stay there Mesa A He's he
(01:26:47):
kind of was playing up all the advantages if I
did come to Mesa, and if I did, you know,
he said, you know, it's it's it's a great place.
We could still see each other and hang out on occasion.
Speaker 8 (01:27:00):
There.
Speaker 10 (01:27:00):
This church is very strong. You know, you'll you'll make
a lot of friends. And I already knew all this
stuff prior because I we talked about that, you know,
and so I went ahead and just made the move.
It sounded at the time like a good idea, and.
Speaker 1 (01:27:16):
You guys continued to kind of see each other at
that time.
Speaker 10 (01:27:19):
Yeah, at the time, I was sort of living more
across town over by Greenfield. Do you know where that is? Uh?
It was up Greenfield near Broadway, Greenfield Broadway where the
nearest cross streams, and that's where the girl that I
was originally talking with me, I moved.
Speaker 1 (01:27:32):
In with her.
Speaker 10 (01:27:32):
That's kind of far from Yeah. Yeah, the thing about
her and and just to give you a background of
why I moved, suddenly, she approached me the weekend after
I got there and said hey, she knocked on my
door and I talked to you for a second. I
said sure, And she moved in with her.
Speaker 1 (01:27:49):
Boyfriend and they were engaged, okay.
Speaker 10 (01:27:53):
And she said, hey, I just wanted to let you
know that Scott and I went to Vegas last week
and tied it up and I was like really, and
she's like, yeah, we've told me one, but we didn't
want to live, so we're gonna And she had already
been sealed in the temple once and was waiting for
her cancel.
Speaker 1 (01:28:05):
Or key to her shoe or whatever.
Speaker 10 (01:28:07):
Yeah, to be careful. So they were gonna have a
civil wedding on the beach in Oregon, and they did
that the following at at the following weekend. She told
me that on a Monday or Tuesday, what was the
beginning of the week. And she said, the reason I'm
telling you that is because I'm getting married this weekend
and I have to go out of town a few
days ahead of Scott, you know, and make arrangements. And
(01:28:28):
now that he's a married man, we don't feel it's
right that you be here in the house. She thought,
I don't wanna inconvenience. Is there any way you could
stay with somebody else or just find another place? The time,
I was waiting on a house in Gilbert, cause I
already knew they were getting married, so it was kind
of looking anyway. And there was a great girl named Brenda,
and she was waiting on her keys for the march
to go through. And it was a great war, and
it was a great house.
Speaker 12 (01:28:48):
And it was a brand new.
Speaker 10 (01:28:50):
Construction and all that. It was really nice, but she
didn't get her keys. From months and months. I think
she's in the house now.
Speaker 12 (01:28:56):
But I don't know.
Speaker 10 (01:28:56):
I haven't talked to her. So I scrambled. I went
to the institute. I wrote down a bunch of phone numbers.
I called 'em all, a lot of 'em. I got voicemails.
One girl had answered. Her name was Tiffany, and she
knew Travis and she was at his services in Arizona
and as well, and we've just remained friends sort of
like on my Space and Facebook and that kind of thing.
(01:29:17):
But she said, hey, sorry, that's an outdated posting. I
brought to take it down and go to this websiteh
at Elliott's Housing dot in. I went there, I c
made three phone calls for the places that were within
my price range. I didn't think to look where they were.
The one girl that called me back, her name is
Shannon Derricott. She said, here's my place, here's the directions.
Go ahead and go out and come see the house
that was available.
Speaker 1 (01:29:37):
So we did, Oh, go ahead, you have.
Speaker 10 (01:29:40):
To get that, okay. So I moved out there. And
when Travis found out it was so close to him,
and you freaked out about it, and I made sure
to check that it wasn't that that we wouldn't be
in the same ward and it was within his ward boundaries,
but it was also within another single's ward boundaries, So
of course I would go the other one cause it
would just be kind of weird. I mean, I didn't
(01:30:02):
know about him and Lisa met first.
Speaker 16 (01:30:06):
Did you and she also talk about her baptism and
what kind of contact.
Speaker 4 (01:30:13):
You've had with uh this around example, at the time
of the baptism mo out of it was a little bit.
Did you also talk to her about that?
Speaker 5 (01:30:21):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (01:30:23):
Did you look at uh exhibit number three fifty five,
Did that contain.
Speaker 2 (01:30:28):
That portion of the interviewer?
Speaker 8 (01:30:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 11 (01:30:40):
Ok, Exhibit three fifty five is admitted.
Speaker 1 (01:30:46):
Basically, Yeah, You've say you knew that it that it
wasn't healthy, and and you knew you was contributing to
something that wasn't good. I think everybody you guys.
Speaker 8 (01:30:55):
Continue to do it.
Speaker 10 (01:30:56):
Yeah, And part of that, part of my perspective now
has to do with the fact that I'm going through
a repentance process that I've worked out with, you know,
with my bishop, and he's given me and you know,
certain scriptures to read and ponder and pray about, and
it just it brings me back to where I was
prior to all that. I don't know how much I
(01:31:19):
never really was there as much as I am now,
because even before I was baptized, even the two days
before I was baptized four days it was on a Wednesday,
and I was baptist on Sunday before Thanksgiving, and it
was just like like Travis and I were making out.
And you know, whether that was prior to we hadn't
gone all the way at that point, but was just
too far.
Speaker 2 (01:31:42):
Did you also talk to her about the events involving
her travels on two, second, third, and four? Yes, I did.
He says, is that a portion.
Speaker 4 (01:31:57):
Of your conversation?
Speaker 5 (01:32:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:32:05):
Who would you mission?
Speaker 10 (01:32:06):
We do it?
Speaker 3 (01:32:06):
Pretty good?
Speaker 2 (01:32:10):
Objection three fifty six is admitted.
Speaker 1 (01:32:21):
It kind of giving me a really good uh rundown
of your relationship and how you guys thought of each
other and stuff, and and I was pretty pretty close
to right on with my with my theory on how
you guys. You know, why you continued to see each other,
what was going on during that time? I think there's
some other things that you're not telling me. I think
(01:32:44):
I think maybe you were the jealousy probably continued even
after the fact that you moved away for instance, the
uh was it the week of the well, the first
week of June. You took a trip to Salt Lake City.
(01:33:05):
Remember that trip we talked about.
Speaker 10 (01:33:06):
Oh this year.
Speaker 2 (01:33:07):
Yes, I'm thinking back.
Speaker 4 (01:33:08):
Oh, you had you had left.
Speaker 1 (01:33:11):
I think it was like a Monday, Well left Monday, June,
second Monday, June sat yap in morning or afternoon or something.
I can't what late.
Speaker 10 (01:33:19):
I think it was morning, okay, and.
Speaker 1 (01:33:21):
You'd gone down to reading the rented car. Where did
you rent that car?
Speaker 5 (01:33:26):
Uh?
Speaker 10 (01:33:26):
The Reading airport?
Speaker 1 (01:33:27):
Okay? Do you remember what car company it was?
Speaker 8 (01:33:30):
It?
Speaker 1 (01:33:30):
Oh?
Speaker 10 (01:33:30):
I don't remember a rental company, but I remember the
nacing model. It was a FOURD Focus.
Speaker 1 (01:33:35):
Yeah, I got that from other people. And you'd tell
they said, and you could showed up in a Ford Focus.
Uh huh.
Speaker 10 (01:33:39):
It was white four door no gross control, I like
road trips, crews Controls.
Speaker 1 (01:33:48):
You don't remember what company it was? Uh? Who rented avery?
Speaker 10 (01:33:54):
I did?
Speaker 1 (01:33:54):
Was it? Was it your credit card or okay?
Speaker 2 (01:33:57):
Yeah, I could look it up.
Speaker 1 (01:33:58):
And so you took a trip and you decided to
go to Instead of going over to Utah, you went
straight out to Los Angeles area.
Speaker 10 (01:34:08):
I went to Santa Cruz first Santa Cruz, and then
I stayed the night in Monterey and the next day
I drove to Pasadena, Okay, waiting for Laura to call
me back.
Speaker 1 (01:34:19):
You didn't contact her at all?
Speaker 10 (01:34:21):
Uh. She contacted me finally after.
Speaker 1 (01:34:22):
I'd already left it where it was too late and
you're already.
Speaker 10 (01:34:24):
Yeah to go and we had plans to to do
that again.
Speaker 1 (01:34:28):
Which route did you take from from there?
Speaker 10 (01:34:30):
I was supposed to get on the fifteen and go
all the way up, and I somehow got.
Speaker 1 (01:34:38):
Off the fifteen. Where did you move? Went up?
Speaker 2 (01:34:42):
For a while?
Speaker 10 (01:34:42):
I was lost, and I'm not above sleeping in the car,
so I slept for a while. I'm a heavy sleeper
and I sleep a.
Speaker 1 (01:34:48):
Lot, so But you were on the fifteen for a
while and you ended up getting off the fifteen somewhere.
Speaker 10 (01:34:53):
Yeah, I M, I M. I looked at a map
and I'm pretty sure I know where I went.
Speaker 5 (01:34:56):
I went.
Speaker 10 (01:34:57):
Can I drive him out?
Speaker 5 (01:34:58):
Sure?
Speaker 10 (01:35:03):
Cause I eventually started seeing signs for Phoenix and I
was like, and it was several hundred miles away still,
but that's weird? Where am I going? So you have California,
Los Angeles and Abada Arizona, Utah. And I was supposed
to go somewhere right up here. Oh pamba LEAFTI. So
(01:35:27):
the fifteen kind of does in one of.
Speaker 1 (01:35:28):
These yeah, goes through let's say Las Vegas right here.
Speaker 10 (01:35:33):
Oh yeah, I'm sorry, I'm I'm my, that's okay.
Speaker 1 (01:35:37):
So we'll just put just p I just.
Speaker 10 (01:35:38):
I know it cuts through a zone in the corner
Las Vegas, Saint George somewhere here, and then the forty
runs somewhere this way. Cause somehow I I ended up
on the forty. And when I saw the forty, I'm like,
the only thing I associate with the forty is flag staff,
and flag staff is some Utah, I mean nor north,
(01:36:03):
northern Arizona, and so and it was I was going
east and I was like, this isn't this what's going
on here? I just I wasn't going the right way.
And so I I've had for the last two years,
I've had a car that has a GPS system and
it is really good, and it I I think it's sert.
(01:36:23):
It hasn't served me as far as getting a sense
of direction when I moved Palm Desert.
Speaker 8 (01:36:28):
And you kind of rely on it a little too
much too much.
Speaker 10 (01:36:31):
In fact, when I moved when I moved in with
the g the last place I lived in Arizona, I
did not know how close it was to Travis. I
didn't realize I have a very bad sense of direction,
and it wasn't until I began to I use my
GPS the whole time I was there pretty much just
to find things anyway. So I got back, I looked
(01:36:55):
at the map quest that I I had mapped west
a bunch of places. I was maybe getting go to
Death Valley.
Speaker 1 (01:37:00):
I was maybe, did you actually cross over into Arizona's
out where you went?
Speaker 10 (01:37:04):
I crossed over twice. I think my map is wrong
because the ninety three goes north and then I hit
the fifteen again, and then I got here, and then
I hit Arizona and then went here. It the somehow
I got north on the ninety three, okay, and then
I hit the fifteenth. So I mean, I don't know
where Phoenix is, and they said it's got to be
(01:37:25):
over here. Yeah, I didn't go anywhere near there.
Speaker 1 (01:37:28):
So you you took this trip and you left on
was it Monday, the second right, and you didn't get
to Utah until Thursday.
Speaker 8 (01:37:44):
You told me.
Speaker 10 (01:37:45):
Yeah, I got to Utah on Thursday.
Speaker 1 (01:37:46):
So Thursday, and that's the fifth mm. Yeah, I think
so it's Monday, that's Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Year. Okay, so
we have it's like forty eight hours there that well
obviously three days, but there's plenty. There's forty eight hours.
(01:38:08):
So this trip took a little over forty eight hours day.
I have a problem with this trip.
Speaker 10 (01:38:15):
Well I got first too.
Speaker 12 (01:38:17):
Yeah, I don't I know you went down here.
Speaker 1 (01:38:19):
I mean obviously my Rica right there. Beautiful little place here,
except it's kind of smoky.
Speaker 3 (01:38:27):
You can't see the use.
Speaker 8 (01:38:29):
I was hoping to see some mountains, but you really.
Speaker 10 (01:38:31):
Should see out Chesta can give it you, Kase.
Speaker 1 (01:38:34):
I've gone over this trip over and over in my
mind and on paper, and even if there's still twenty
some odd hours, even if you pulled over to sleep.
Speaker 12 (01:38:50):
A couple of times.
Speaker 10 (01:38:51):
Oh did I tell you that I got stranded?
Speaker 1 (01:38:54):
Yeah, okay, you mentioned that if you slept for ten hours,
I only slept for here in here, it would still
leave eighteen similar hours yeah for something else. Okay, this
is what people are focusing on as this trip that
you took, cause they're saying she left she'd get it
(01:39:17):
til Thursday Wednesday, some traps was killed.
Speaker 10 (01:39:27):
I did not go in your's house. Isn't there are there?
Speaker 8 (01:39:31):
I pulled your cell records.
Speaker 12 (01:39:33):
Your cell phone was.
Speaker 1 (01:39:34):
Turned off between year a year? Okay, but the last
place they pulled it was here. The next place it
turned on was here. What does that show mean?
Speaker 10 (01:39:53):
Oh? Well, I began, oh no, no, no, y.
Speaker 1 (01:39:56):
Is there plenty of time for you to do that?
Speaker 8 (01:39:58):
Yes?
Speaker 12 (01:40:00):
And I do I believe that you had come.
Speaker 1 (01:40:03):
To visit Travis. Yes, I truly believe it. Did you
have the opportunity? Yes, you were traveling alone. There's no
other witnesses. Your phone just happened to turn off from
here to here.
Speaker 10 (01:40:16):
Well, I didn't turn it off physically, but it.
Speaker 1 (01:40:19):
Died and then it magically. You like you found your
charger here.
Speaker 10 (01:40:24):
It was.
Speaker 2 (01:40:25):
It was under the act.
Speaker 10 (01:40:26):
Under the seat of the passenger side, and it was
when I was when you were lost.
Speaker 1 (01:40:29):
You couldn't have you pulled over and found it?
Speaker 10 (01:40:32):
Or well, I did finally start looking when I was stranded.
I wouldn't. I wouldn't have pulled over when I was lost.
Speaker 12 (01:40:38):
Kay.
Speaker 1 (01:40:38):
If this I've been focusing on this and going over
and over.
Speaker 12 (01:40:42):
My mind, why this happened?
Speaker 1 (01:40:45):
Why your phone turns off? Here? Outside of Los Angeles?
Speaker 10 (01:40:51):
What city is that case? Going on?
Speaker 1 (01:40:53):
As far as then some cities there's towers.
Speaker 10 (01:40:55):
Oh okay, why you cash?
Speaker 1 (01:40:57):
Towers dotted all over this place. Yeah, one tower hit here,
the other tower here on the ninety three. There's no
way somebody can get on that fifteen and magically get
on that ninety three. Wow, Cause at fifteen goes right
to Las Vegas right there. It continues this way. It
never goes to Arizona.
Speaker 10 (01:41:17):
I g I got off before Las Vegas.
Speaker 1 (01:41:20):
Kay, I didn't get back as fifteen. You'd have to
go to Las Vegas and then come down south, go
through one of the weather City.
Speaker 10 (01:41:30):
I went through Oulder City going north.
Speaker 1 (01:41:34):
Did you cross over the uh?
Speaker 10 (01:41:37):
I do?
Speaker 5 (01:41:38):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (01:41:39):
And you didn't think that was odd? You were crossing
in and over.
Speaker 10 (01:41:42):
Well, after a fe I figured out I was lost
by then, and I found I found the ninety three,
and then found I went back to fifteen and this
tower here.
Speaker 1 (01:41:50):
It's not just over the border in Arizona. It's quite
a distance inside of Arizona that it hit because there's
a mountain range.
Speaker 12 (01:41:59):
Oh, here, and if you're on this side of.
Speaker 1 (01:42:04):
The mountain range pretty good distance, that signal's not gonna come,
not gonna hit you to power you tall uh or
Nevada or California. It's only gonna hit in Arizona.
Speaker 10 (01:42:16):
Well, I had somehow gotten off the fifteen and got
onto the forty, is what happened.
Speaker 1 (01:42:21):
Well, the only way you can get on the forty
is if after you cross the bridge or the uh
the dam.
Speaker 10 (01:42:30):
I think we're the I think I got on the
forty in California.
Speaker 1 (01:42:35):
From the fifteenth.
Speaker 10 (01:42:38):
Well, like cause I had actually gotten I actually began
to drive to ten West.
Speaker 1 (01:42:42):
But you see what I'm saying, the confusion that we're having,
and and we'll come back to this.
Speaker 10 (01:42:48):
Well, I got off the forty somewhere over here in California, Yeah,
and continue to drive this way, realize there was not
in the right place at all. And then I got
on to the N ninety three North, and then I
hit the fifteen again, and then I went to Las
Vegas and Ncat Georgia.
Speaker 1 (01:43:05):
And in nineteen or so, mkay, that still doesn't nothing.
At school, and I can pull about straw to you and.
Speaker 4 (01:43:13):
You'd go over and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (01:43:16):
But I don't think you're being completely honest with me
about about that trip.
Speaker 10 (01:43:20):
I honestly got lost. It's it's bad timing.
Speaker 16 (01:43:30):
Did you then confront her about whether or not she
was set the the victims well of the weddestate?
Speaker 5 (01:43:37):
Yes, I did.
Speaker 7 (01:43:41):
Take a look at uh is there at number three
fifty seven, and that contains the portion of the conversation
involving back just.
Speaker 4 (01:43:55):
What adigas thing you did in three seven.
Speaker 11 (01:43:59):
No Kids, three fifty seven is admitted.
Speaker 1 (01:44:05):
Were you at Travis's house on Wednesday?
Speaker 10 (01:44:07):
Absolutely not. It was n I was nowhere near Mesa,
it was nowhere near No Phoenix. I wasn't even close
to him.
Speaker 1 (01:44:22):
What if I could show you proof you with him?
Speaker 8 (01:44:25):
Oh that changed your mind?
Speaker 10 (01:44:27):
I wasn't there. To be honest with you, Jody, I
was not at Travis's house. It was not.
Speaker 1 (01:44:36):
You were at Travis's house.
Speaker 14 (01:44:39):
You guys had a sexual encounter, which there's pictures, And
I know you know there's pictures because I have that.
Speaker 1 (01:44:51):
I will showed them to you, mkay. So what I'm
asking you it is for you to be honest with me.
Speaker 12 (01:45:03):
I know you were there.
Speaker 10 (01:45:04):
Are you sure those pictures aren't from another time.
Speaker 8 (01:45:07):
Positive Absolutely.
Speaker 10 (01:45:12):
Last time I had any kind of sexual contact with
Travis was in April.
Speaker 12 (01:45:19):
Remember I told you about the camera.
Speaker 1 (01:45:23):
That camera was damaged. Someone put it in a washing machine,
ran into a wash cycle with some clothes of trapses.
Speaker 12 (01:45:35):
But the card is intact. I remember I told you.
Speaker 1 (01:45:38):
That card was destroyed. M.
Speaker 8 (01:45:42):
I didn't wanna tell you the truth cause I wanted
to make sure.
Speaker 1 (01:45:47):
Those photos were accurate. And we can pull to leader photos.
Speaker 12 (01:45:52):
I don't care if you delete 'em.
Speaker 8 (01:45:55):
Six months ago.
Speaker 1 (01:45:56):
We can pull every photo that was ever on there,
pulled a little pixels together, get the time stamps on 'em.
Not all of 'em, but most of 'em have time
stamps on 'em, and we can verify those time stamps.
Speaker 8 (01:46:07):
MM.
Speaker 1 (01:46:09):
And I have pictures of you in Travis's bedroom with
Travis pictures of him, and.
Speaker 8 (01:46:16):
It's obvious you guys are having.
Speaker 1 (01:46:18):
Secks taking photos of each other and they're dated and
time stamped on the day he died.
Speaker 10 (01:46:28):
Are you sure it's meat? I mean that cause I'm
just not there.
Speaker 8 (01:46:32):
It's you, and you know it's you.
Speaker 1 (01:46:38):
I know all the details of this case.
Speaker 12 (01:46:41):
The only thing I don't know is why.
Speaker 1 (01:46:44):
Why did you choose to go visit Travis that day?
And why did you do what you did?
Speaker 10 (01:46:56):
Why Travis?
Speaker 1 (01:46:58):
You did.
Speaker 10 (01:47:01):
You hurt him?
Speaker 1 (01:47:04):
That's why we're here.
Speaker 12 (01:47:06):
That's why I flew up here.
Speaker 1 (01:47:09):
Cause I needed to talk to you about this. I
can just arrest you and throw you in jail, but.
Speaker 12 (01:47:16):
I wanna know why?
Speaker 1 (01:47:18):
Why did you do this to him?
Speaker 10 (01:47:19):
Wouldn't hurt Travis? He's done so much for me.
Speaker 1 (01:47:25):
There's so much evidence in that house, so much and
at all points to you.
Speaker 10 (01:47:31):
I l I lived there. I was there for months
and months and months.
Speaker 8 (01:47:40):
I know you took pictures of him in the shower
just before he died.
Speaker 10 (01:47:47):
I don't think he would allow that.
Speaker 8 (01:47:49):
And the camera actually.
Speaker 1 (01:47:52):
Took a couple of photos by accident during the time
he was being killed. Really, actually, really, you were the
hair complain this game. It's time for you to just
come out then.
Speaker 10 (01:48:08):
I didn't don't know.
Speaker 8 (01:48:09):
I am.
Speaker 10 (01:48:09):
I did not hurt Travid, did not hurt traubt I
wouldn't do that if you am. Can I see the pictures.
Speaker 8 (01:48:26):
You have?
Speaker 12 (01:48:26):
Your blood, your hair was blood, your left pomp print.
Speaker 1 (01:48:47):
Have to see it in blood.
Speaker 7 (01:48:50):
What's going on here?
Speaker 2 (01:48:52):
Well?
Speaker 10 (01:48:52):
I can explain the blood and the hair.
Speaker 4 (01:48:54):
I don't know about my left palm print.
Speaker 8 (01:48:55):
How can you explain the blood in that well?
Speaker 10 (01:48:58):
Cause I used to bathe in the ponie and all
the time.
Speaker 1 (01:49:02):
And you haven't been there since April, right, Well, I
just had the house planed several times since then. And
this hair was not just of a hair, you know,
from the shower or something. This hair was stuck with
blood and obviously had blood on it at the time
(01:49:25):
it got stuck where it where it ended up.
Speaker 12 (01:49:28):
Why there's no other hair?
Speaker 10 (01:49:32):
Can you take Can you take a hair sample and you.
Speaker 8 (01:49:35):
Have your DNA?
Speaker 5 (01:49:36):
No?
Speaker 10 (01:49:36):
No, no, But I mean, like you know how they
could do drug tests and find out when things are done.
Can you We can't do that. Can't you measure the
time we have DNA that you that hair?
Speaker 1 (01:49:46):
Ta?
Speaker 10 (01:49:46):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (01:49:47):
I know, but man, And that hair had a follicle
on it, and that means that that hair wasn't there
very long. The pollicle will usually dissipate and go away
after a certain time. I'll fall off the hair itself.
Speaker 10 (01:50:01):
Well, when I would.
Speaker 1 (01:50:02):
Brush my shoulder hair. I mean this one, you absolutely
cannot cannot explain that way. You either had blood on
your hand when you touched the wall, or there was
blood on the wall and you touched her.
Speaker 10 (01:50:22):
Love, could my be home? Frint have already been there
and then I touched it?
Speaker 1 (01:50:27):
Sure? This is over, This is absolutely over. You need
to tell me the truth.
Speaker 10 (01:50:33):
What's in the truth is I did not hurt trials.
Speaker 1 (01:50:36):
Kay, So where's t You can continue to do this? Okay?
Speaker 8 (01:50:41):
The records, Chuck shows.
Speaker 17 (01:50:43):
You that you uh has reported a a gun stolen
twenty five otto just happens to be.
Speaker 1 (01:50:54):
The same caliber as the weapon.
Speaker 8 (01:50:57):
Used to kill him.
Speaker 10 (01:51:00):
A twenty five auto was used to keep.
Speaker 1 (01:51:02):
Trying this.
Speaker 17 (01:51:04):
He got along with multiple staboids. Joey, if you want,
I can show you some pictures of him. Do you
wanna see pictures of him?
Speaker 2 (01:51:17):
Part of me doesn't? Part of me doesn't?
Speaker 1 (01:51:20):
Why because you don't wanna remember?
Speaker 12 (01:51:22):
No a, Joey.
Speaker 10 (01:51:23):
There's a more of a curiosity, Jody. I've wanted to
know how he died.
Speaker 1 (01:51:28):
We can keep playing these games over and over again.
Speaker 8 (01:51:31):
I'm not gonna believe you.
Speaker 1 (01:51:34):
I mean, you start telling me the truth, then I
can leave you. But I can't deny this evidence.
Speaker 8 (01:51:42):
I can't.
Speaker 1 (01:51:44):
The trip he took doesn't make sense. The opportunity was
there your pictures on that date with him. Your blood
is in the house mixed with his, mixed, not alongside,
but mixed.
Speaker 12 (01:52:01):
Your hair is there with blood, and.
Speaker 1 (01:52:04):
Your pom print is there in blood. Was I it's over?
Speaker 2 (01:52:10):
Could it have been my blood from before image?
Speaker 1 (01:52:13):
It's not important right now. Saving the rest of your
life is Listen.
Speaker 10 (01:52:19):
If I'm found guilty, I don't have a life. I'm
not guilty. I didn't hurt Travis. If I hurt Travis,
if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (01:52:32):
Was there anybody else with you?
Speaker 10 (01:52:35):
I was traveling alone the whole time.
Speaker 1 (01:52:38):
Was there anybody else with you at Travis's house? I'm
gonna stay there four.
Speaker 10 (01:52:42):
I was not at traps house.
Speaker 1 (01:52:43):
Someone to say you are, cause that's when the blood
was left on uh, the bloody pomp print was left
on his wall.
Speaker 12 (01:52:52):
I don't know what to tell you.
Speaker 8 (01:52:55):
If you were in my shoes and I had this
evidence against.
Speaker 1 (01:53:00):
Against you, what would you say.
Speaker 10 (01:53:03):
If I had that evidence against you? And yeah, it'd
be pretty obvious. But I guess being in my position,
I it just seems so impossible. I wanna see it.
I wanna know. I mean, I'm not like, I'm not
a murderer, but I guess if I were to do that,
I would wear gloves or you know something, I just.
Speaker 12 (01:53:21):
How could I M I don't know. I know.
Speaker 1 (01:53:25):
You try to push him off, try to get some
of the blot off, try to clean 'em up a
little bit. But you're even denying the pictures. Have you
been there?
Speaker 8 (01:53:38):
There's pictures of.
Speaker 1 (01:53:39):
You laying on the bed and pigtails.
Speaker 10 (01:53:42):
Pigtails.
Speaker 1 (01:53:42):
Yes, now I've got pictures of you that I've blown up,
and you've got the little mole right there. It's the
same one. It's you. It's obvious.
Speaker 8 (01:53:55):
I can show you some of these pictures.
Speaker 12 (01:53:59):
You want to see the.
Speaker 8 (01:54:01):
Will that change your mind?
Speaker 10 (01:54:05):
I mean, I am curious.
Speaker 1 (01:54:08):
Kay, let me take a break. Then let me go
find him, remember 'em and show you.
Speaker 10 (01:54:14):
I wasn't there that.
Speaker 1 (01:54:14):
You need to think about what you're saying. This. Continuing
to lie is not gonna help you.
Speaker 10 (01:54:22):
If it was something I didn't do, it won't happen either. Okay,
let's say for a second that I did, and I
say I did it.
Speaker 1 (01:54:34):
I mean, motive is there the jealousy issue?
Speaker 10 (01:54:39):
But I wasn't. I wouldn't even say it was jealous.
I mean there and there may have been some jealousy there,
But then I think, if you know, if anyone, maybe
Travis was jealous, But.
Speaker 1 (01:54:56):
That's like what everybody else says, Well, they know he was,
but they think that you are absolutely obsessed. Obsessed is
the word that they use. That's the word I hear
from everybody. Fatal attraction.
Speaker 12 (01:55:10):
I don't know how many times I've heard that.
Speaker 17 (01:55:14):
Look at Jody, Jody had to have done this or
she got someone to do it for There's not one
person that.
Speaker 1 (01:55:21):
Says anything else.
Speaker 12 (01:55:23):
Why is that?
Speaker 1 (01:55:25):
That's the perception they have of you? And there's a
reason for that perception, maybe because it's true.
Speaker 10 (01:55:32):
And maybe because we kept hanging out, but not because
it's true.
Speaker 8 (01:55:39):
Cause of this. I can prove it were there.
Speaker 10 (01:55:43):
I can prove it.
Speaker 17 (01:55:45):
But what I don't have is I don't have answers
on why it happened, or you know, maybe something just
got out of hand.
Speaker 1 (01:55:53):
Maybe maybe things got out of hand.
Speaker 10 (01:55:57):
Do you find of the gun? Maybe that would.
Speaker 1 (01:56:01):
Tell me we're just playing games here.
Speaker 8 (01:56:06):
That gun was in your possession, When did you report
it stolen?
Speaker 10 (01:56:12):
I didn't even know that there were guns until my grandpa.
My grandparents reported it stolen the day that had their
house was retrien too.
Speaker 12 (01:56:18):
The when was that, I don't remember.
Speaker 10 (01:56:21):
It was a few months ago. Maybe What did you
do with the gun? I don't have a gun.
Speaker 1 (01:56:31):
They going through your house right now, So are they
gonna find anything there? They will lead you back to this.
Speaker 10 (01:56:37):
I don't think they would. I mean, there's nothing that
could link me there. I mean, that's pretty compelling.
Speaker 2 (01:56:43):
I have to admit.
Speaker 10 (01:56:44):
If you found my palms in there, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:56:48):
They just that's Do you have a pair of sweat
pass step stripes around the backside? Was at first.
Speaker 8 (01:56:56):
Somebody seen you wearing those before?
Speaker 10 (01:57:00):
I've got so many clothes, Yeah, I think I do. Wait,
I have a well, I have zipper one that zips
in the back.
Speaker 5 (01:57:07):
Uh huh.
Speaker 1 (01:57:08):
You got like stripes, uh, like big stripe on it
on the side.
Speaker 10 (01:57:11):
Well, it's got a black stripe all the way down
and they're white.
Speaker 4 (01:57:15):
It's got the black.
Speaker 10 (01:57:16):
I have those around the house. Okay, it's got I
have two fairs. Actually one is too small and one
is just about right. The other one I bought any
one of those too small cause.
Speaker 1 (01:57:26):
It was on the sale and it's a good deal.
Speaker 10 (01:57:29):
But yeah, they have stripes they supper Well what does
that mean?
Speaker 8 (01:57:33):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (01:57:34):
Do I believe you were wearing a hairt like that?
I guess when this happened. Remember I told you about
the camera. It was taking pictures my acts I had.
The camera was upside down, had flash another time camera flashed.
Looks like it was on the ground. Maybe it was kicked.
Or are two pictures and it's obviously a female hm
(01:57:57):
and one of one was wearing those pants.
Speaker 10 (01:57:59):
Oh I didn't even bring those pants that trip.
Speaker 1 (01:58:02):
So and if you find those pants, is I gonna
make my case a little bit better? Yeah? Okay, I'm
gonna take a little break, but I need you to
think about what you do in here. This is the
best thing for you to do is to tell me
the truth and tell me exactly what happened, because.
Speaker 12 (01:58:21):
You know what, I think your mom and your dad really.
Speaker 1 (01:58:23):
Deserved the truth. They're gonna be asking and it's absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:58:38):
It.
Speaker 1 (01:58:39):
It's so important that.
Speaker 8 (01:58:40):
You tell me.
Speaker 1 (01:58:43):
Why has occurred, what was going through your mind and
what caused.
Speaker 12 (01:58:48):
You to do this?
Speaker 1 (01:58:51):
Yeah, it happened, and I can prove it happen, and
there's no to help in.
Speaker 14 (01:58:54):
My mind, and there absolutely is no doubt in anybody
else's mind who's investigating as that.
Speaker 1 (01:58:59):
You were there and that you did this. But I'll
let you think about that. Okay.
Speaker 12 (01:59:07):
Yeah, I'm gonna go look up for.
Speaker 1 (01:59:08):
Some pictures and don't bring them over and we'll continue
this discussion. Okay, let me go find it. I'm go
it back.
Speaker 9 (01:59:18):
All right, Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take
the evening recess. Please be back in the designated area
at ten twenty five tomorrow morning. We will start promptly
at ten thirty. Remember the admonition.
Speaker 11 (01:59:29):
You are excused you have worried, please be seated. Council,
Please approach
The camera.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Not aware of any So what if you're left handed,
do you still have to click with your right hand?
Speaker 3 (00:07):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (00:08):
And in this case that's what we have here, right.
Speaker 5 (00:09):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
So let's say that you click on for an image
and you want to click or take another image. How
does that work? Do you have to push you a button?
Speaker 6 (00:20):
Press?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm sorry, okay, do you have to push another button?
Or just just tell me how it works?
Speaker 5 (00:25):
It depends on the setting you have the camera on.
Some cameras will give you a setting where you could
do repeated photos by pressing onto and not letting it go,
and other cameras you have to press on it multiple times.
Speaker 7 (00:35):
Okay, but do you in terms of the the focusing,
is this an automatic focus?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Is that how that works?
Speaker 5 (00:43):
Or do you know it has a setting for automatic focus,
which is what's usually the camera to be on.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
So if you just hold it down you can keep
taking photographs that yes. Say yes.
Speaker 7 (00:54):
With regard to your examination of this, we talked about
it being somewhat similar to a computer.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Did you actually follow that kind of.
Speaker 7 (01:03):
Route for the examination of this camera or did you
do something else.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
For the camera?
Speaker 5 (01:09):
I once I had a power cord for it. I
connected it via USB connection to a white blocker that's
connected to the computer. And I tried to see if
I was able to obtain anything from the camera memory
and I was not able to.
Speaker 7 (01:27):
So you plugged it in, you go to memory, you
can't find anything, right, What was the condition of the camera.
Was it the condition of the camera or was it
because items were not in there?
Speaker 5 (01:38):
I was not able to find any item saved to
the internal memory of the camera.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
And what was the condition of the camera.
Speaker 7 (01:44):
We know that I had been found in a washing machine,
but what was the condition of the camera?
Speaker 5 (01:48):
It turned on and I was able to use it.
It was turned on. I was able to turn it
on and see that.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
It worked okay? And did it were any parts of
it broken?
Speaker 5 (01:58):
I believed the the actual button to take the pictures
was loose.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Okay, So how were you able to determine that.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
It kind of moved off of its I manipulated the camera.
Speaker 7 (02:11):
And were there any other items that were off of it?
For example, was there any cover in the back that
was off of it?
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Anything like that?
Speaker 5 (02:17):
No, it looked exactly how it looks.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Now this.
Speaker 7 (02:22):
Sim card that we have there. Yeah, with regard.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
To that, and if you put the water on it,
would that affect right? If you put water on it
on the sim card, would that affect it?
Speaker 7 (02:37):
In other words, its capabilities and its ability to work or.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Not it can? How about bleach? Would that also affect it?
Speaker 5 (02:45):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (02:46):
In this case, were you able to look at the
camera and see where this sim card was?
Speaker 5 (02:52):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I was.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Were you the person who actually removed it?
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (02:56):
And tell me a little bit in terms of its
safeguards and protection from moisture. Why don't you tell me
a little bit about where the sim card was located?
Speaker 5 (03:05):
The sim card, Well, it's not a sim cars, it's
a memory stick.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
What's the difference between what I've been saying.
Speaker 5 (03:12):
It's a similar type of a storage device. The SIM
card is more used for phones, I see.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
And so this is a memory stick, go ahead.
Speaker 5 (03:21):
And the memory stick from my recollection had like a
little cover on it, and then it was inside of
the camera itself in the area and the camera where
you put the memory card in.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
So my question was was it protected from water and
that sort of thing?
Speaker 5 (03:37):
It could have been?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yes, And you have that memory stick there, Yes? And
what exhibit number is it?
Speaker 5 (03:46):
Two fifteen?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
It's actually very small, isn't it.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (03:50):
Is that a function of how much it can store?
Or is it just that it's small because of a camera.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
I believe it's more of a function, so it could
be put in the camera and not take much space
in the camera.
Speaker 7 (04:02):
So now you have this camera, You've now plugged it in,
You're about to start your analysis.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
What do you do next?
Speaker 5 (04:10):
After I was done with the camera itself, then I
went on to the actual card, to the member of
stick media device.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
And what did you do with that?
Speaker 7 (04:20):
I know that previously you said, well, I would normally
make a mirror image and then I would use that
for the analysis.
Speaker 5 (04:27):
Did you do that here or not? Not exactly the
same way?
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Now?
Speaker 7 (04:30):
No?
Speaker 5 (04:30):
Why what happened was I connected the card to a
card viewer viewers basically you could connect multiple different size
of cards to it. And that's connected to the computer
Vira USB. Okay that also, I have a USB right
block of which I use that guests connect. The viewer
(04:51):
gets connected into the USB blocker, which is connected into
my forensic computer machine. When I try to bring up
the card, it won't it wouldn't come up. I checked
updates on my hardware blocker to make sure I was
completely updated on all the new updates I was. I
restarted the computer, which is what we typically doing the
computer world. With something that doesn't work, you just restart
(05:12):
the computer and see if it works. Tried it again,
didn't work. I tried it on my other computers at too.
I tried it in my partner's computer. Didn't work. At
that time. The only alternative I had to try to
get an image of it was to actually stick it
into use the card reader and actually connect the card
reader directly into my machine.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
And were you able to get some results?
Speaker 5 (05:31):
But we're arning that at that point in time, it
did come up and I was able to see it
in the computer.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
And what were you able to see? Were there items
that were there for you to look at that had
not been deleted?
Speaker 7 (05:42):
Were there items there that had been deleted or was
there a combination?
Speaker 5 (05:45):
There were a combination of items that I was able
to see initially that were not deleted.
Speaker 7 (05:49):
So in other words, there were actual photographs, Yes, there
were that memory stick that had not been deleted.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Yes, there were actual active files on the memory card.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
But there were also images that had been deleted.
Speaker 5 (06:03):
Right, Yes, So once I went ahead and made an
image of the card, a forensic image of the card.
I went ahead and use in case to look through
the card.
Speaker 7 (06:12):
I understand that, but there were some images that were deleted.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Correct.
Speaker 7 (06:16):
Yes, And with regard to the deletion process involving the camera,
how many steps are a person to Let's talk about
one image. How many steps would a person have to
take in order to you can take the camera out
to actually delete an image from that camera.
Speaker 5 (06:34):
There will be a five step process.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Okay, explain to me why it would be five steps.
Speaker 5 (06:40):
First step will be to press the playback button, which
is located on the back of the camera above the
little LCD screen that it has.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
And what does that do?
Speaker 5 (06:49):
When you press the playback button, it brings you to
the to the screen on the camera where you could select.
It brings up the screen of the camerahere you can
see photos on it.
Speaker 7 (06:58):
So when it brings up this screen, do you see one, two, three?
How many photos do you see or do you just
see one?
Speaker 5 (07:03):
It depends on what was Sometimes it may bring up
the last image that was taken.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
And it may bring up other images.
Speaker 7 (07:11):
What if you want to delete it not the last image,
but an image before that, Do you then have to
scroll back or what do you have to do?
Speaker 5 (07:18):
You can scroll back to do that, but you will
have to select menu first to then select, which will
be the third step to select delete.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Okay, so we're at the first step and the first
step again.
Speaker 5 (07:29):
The first step is pressing playback.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Okay, and then you see something, Then what's the next step?
Speaker 5 (07:33):
The second step will be to press the menu button,
which is located to the right of the LCD screen.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
And why would the person need to press the menu button?
Speaker 5 (07:43):
That's where you get the option to select delete?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
All right, So you've now done that.
Speaker 7 (07:49):
And when you get the option to delete, are you
deleting whole schemes of things.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Or are you just deleting one image in the way
we're describing it here.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Once you hit the button select the lead, then you
have multiple ways of deleting.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Okay, so we're at the menu portion then right right,
Then what's the next thing that you do?
Speaker 5 (08:08):
The next thing will be to select the lead from
the menu portion. That's step number three.
Speaker 7 (08:12):
So when you select what are you selecting? What are
you trying to get?
Speaker 5 (08:17):
You select the lead. Once you select the lead, then
the fourth step will be to determine how you want
to delete.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
When you say how you want to delete, what are
we talking about? I thought if you just push the
button delete, it's done.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
Well, there's multiple ways of deleting. You can either delete
one image, you select one image to the leave, you
can select multiple images, or you can select the entire
fold of containing images.
Speaker 7 (08:40):
With regard to this camera, and you said it did
have deleted items, but it also had items that weren't deleting, right, yes,
So would you have an opinion as to whether or
not there was a choice as to the individual making
a choice to actually delete some and not others? Sustained
(09:03):
with regard to this where all of them deleted, all
the photos deleted?
Speaker 2 (09:07):
No, we're only some deleted. Yes, And in your process
that you're talking about, is that the fourth step that
there is a choice to be made? Yes, then what's
the fifth step?
Speaker 5 (09:19):
The fifth step would be deleting the ones that you
choose to delete, So.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
That would be the fifth step, Right, go ahead, do it?
How long will it take? Can you do that? Or
is it not powered up enough for you?
Speaker 5 (09:29):
It's not powered up for me to do that, but
it would depending on how you do it for one image,
it will take the step process out to selected, wait
for that to show up. I want to select menu,
then select on the lete. Then I will have to
go ahead and look at the image and whether I
want to do multiple images or one image, and then
I had to set delete again.
Speaker 7 (09:51):
So you said that there were some deleted images and
there was also some images that were not deleted.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
The images that were not deleted, did you look at those? Yes?
Speaker 7 (10:00):
And generally or not generally? But what can you remember
that those images.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Or photographs were up.
Speaker 5 (10:08):
There were photographs of mister Alexander in the shower.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Those were not deleted.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
I'm sorry, I said, I'm talking about or not deleted.
I don't know what the images were off hand, okay.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
But you do they were the ones that were not deleted.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
There were quite a few not deleted images.
Speaker 7 (10:28):
And with regard to the images that were not deleted,
how is it that you go about capturing those in
this case?
Speaker 2 (10:35):
How did you go about doing.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
That as far as using my forensic software?
Speaker 7 (10:40):
Just how did how is it that they then turned
out to be a picture? You're going through it and
then it becomes a picture at some point right.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
Right when I look at on my software, I select
the image view and it shows me all the images.
And initially you'll show me all the images that are
in there. So I started seeing all the images that
were not deleted.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Okay.
Speaker 7 (10:58):
And with regard to the items that were deleted, were
there's some that involved mister Alexander in the shower, yes,
where there are also some nudes that were that appeared
people were involved in some sort of sexual activity.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Was it a man and a woman?
Speaker 8 (11:13):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (11:14):
And then there were also three others that were were
at the end, right, Yes, let's talk about the first
set up part.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Take a look at Exhibits one sixty four or.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
One sixty nine.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
You recognize those, yes?
Speaker 7 (11:36):
And are those were those images that had that you
recovered from the camera from the deleted space of that camera.
Speaker 5 (11:44):
These are images that would recover from the unallocated space
of the camera.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Okay.
Speaker 7 (11:49):
When you say when I said deleted and you said unallocated,
explain to me what's the difference. Does it mean that
unallocated those are not deleted images?
Speaker 5 (11:58):
No, it does not mean that, but it's.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
A different Why don't you tell me about it?
Speaker 5 (12:01):
Then, a deleted image in any case is referred as
to one that you can recover fully recovering except the
entire directory of the file, okay, with an unallocated one.
And what I mean by the director you means in
like a computer, when you're looking at a file, will
tell you when it was created and if it was deleted,
(12:23):
it'll tell you when with unallocated space, that part of
the file may not be there.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
In other words, the time when it was right deleted
is right.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
The part of the file that contains all that information
would not be with the file, and the only thing
you may be able to find is the actual image,
or you may find sometimes partial images or partial files.
Speaker 7 (12:42):
Are you also able to find with regard to those
that are in an unallocated space? Are you able to
find the date and time that they images were created?
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Typically you may not. But in this case, these images,
when you're taken with this camera, it embeds the date
and time that the camera has set on it to
the fire itself.
Speaker 7 (13:01):
And so with the photographs, at least that some of
them comes to day and time.
Speaker 5 (13:05):
Yes, And I.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Noticed that some of them are blurry and some of
them are not. What's what's the reason for that?
Speaker 5 (13:12):
The blurry ones were thumbnails? And when you make the
thumbnail bigger, it becomes blurry.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
And you previously explained to us what a thumbnail was,
but just so that word clear. This grouping that you have,
does it include both full photographs as well as thumbnails, Yes,
it does.
Speaker 7 (13:31):
So if the camera takes a photograph which is normal
size and it also creates a thumbnail, who when is
the choice made by the camera to keep the thumbnail
versus the larger size photograph?
Speaker 2 (13:45):
How does that work?
Speaker 5 (13:47):
Typically when you take the photo, both are created.
Speaker 7 (13:50):
Okay, Well, in this case, why didn't you get the
one that wasn't the thumbnail?
Speaker 5 (13:54):
Because these images here were all deleted previously.
Speaker 7 (13:58):
And so what happens then to the larger version when
they're in the deleted or unallocated space.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
The deleted ones that are not the same as the
thumbnail were not found with the thumbnail may have been
overridden by other other photos that were placed on the drive.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I'm sorry on the card, but the thumbnail ones were
not the thumbnail was not. So in other words, they
were both. They both went to the same place, but
one of them may have been covered up. Is that
what you're saying?
Speaker 5 (14:25):
Well, yeah, just overwritten, So it.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Go for the admission of exhibits one sixty four.
Speaker 9 (14:44):
You may if it's one sixty four through one sixty nine,
I readmitted.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
H these photographs.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Some of them have a date and time on there.
Speaker 7 (15:08):
Did the photographs when you recover them have the dayton
time on there?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Or is that something that was recovered as part of
the process using the n case report.
Speaker 5 (15:20):
The photo itself.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I'm talking about the writing, the writing that.
Speaker 5 (15:24):
That was created with the en case and then the
day and time also the dating time was but the
day and time in case showed on the photograph for
your image. I'm not sure how that got on.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Well, why don't you just take a look at this
and tell me?
Speaker 7 (15:36):
For example, dayton times on there? Where did they come from?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Is a question?
Speaker 5 (15:42):
They came from done case reports the way it dated.
Speaker 7 (15:44):
Okay, first of all, let's take a look at the
exhibit one sixty four.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
And start. What's the dayton time for this one?
Speaker 5 (15:57):
It's called it difficult for me ZIP is fifty three pm.
Speaker 7 (16:04):
And it does say something about unallocated clusters, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Yes, we've been talking.
Speaker 7 (16:09):
About unallocated space and that sort of thing. Is that
the same thing or it's something else?
Speaker 5 (16:14):
That's same thing.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
And then it is an image of a female. Correct,
Yes it is Exhibit one sixty six. That's the image
of a male. Correct, Yes it is. What is this
right here? You know what that is?
Speaker 5 (16:36):
It looks like a bottle of personal ky I believe
person lubriquin.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
And what's the date and time on that one?
Speaker 5 (16:47):
Six four eight at fifty pm?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
And then Exhibit one sixty five, what's the date in time?
Speaker 5 (16:59):
Emma six four eight pm?
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Sir?
Speaker 7 (17:04):
If we then take a look at Exhibit one sixty seven,
do you see this right here in the foreground?
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Do you know what that is?
Speaker 5 (17:14):
I can't make it all.
Speaker 7 (17:15):
If you then take a look at exhibit number one
sixty six, do you have any idea what that might be?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Within? Could it be that same bottle of personal?
Speaker 8 (17:31):
Let me?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Could it be the same bottle of personal lubricant? This
item here? What's the top? What color is that?
Speaker 10 (17:38):
This blue?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
The bottom down here? What color is that?
Speaker 5 (17:44):
This lightning color? Just white?
Speaker 7 (17:48):
Exhibit one sixty six. What's the color of the top blue?
And the body if you will of it white?
Speaker 2 (17:58):
This back here is what you know what that is?
Speaker 5 (18:05):
Believe it's a TV all right?
Speaker 7 (18:07):
And why is this so blurry as compared to for example,
Exhibit one.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Sixty six, that one it's a thumbnail. And with regard
to a thumbnail, why again is it that these are
blurry and the other.
Speaker 5 (18:22):
Ones are up Because the smaller the image is when
you try it turn larger, it becomes blurry because of
the pixelation of it. So the larger the image, the
more league way you have. We're making it bigger or
making it smaller, and it still seems clear.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Exhibit one sixty eight. This is one that's blurry.
Speaker 7 (18:42):
Correct, But do you see this item up here, Exhibit
one sixty six.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
The bottle there? What color?
Speaker 7 (18:54):
Does that appear to you to have the same sort
of form as the bottle Exhibit one sixty six, Yes,
it does, says here unallocated clusters. How come there's no
date in time there.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
I was not even to locate a dad a time
on that one.
Speaker 7 (19:15):
But you use the same process for these photographs as
you did for the others. Yeah, an Exhibit one sixty nine.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
This one is also from.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
Unacocated clusters, and we don't know the date and time
on that noise.
Speaker 7 (19:42):
So if we're going to at least look through the
timing of this the first one in terms of time
is one forty four fifty pm, right, correct.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
I'm sorry. If we take a look at Exhibit one
sixty five, that's an earlier time of one forty four correct, Yeah,
an Exhibit one sixty seven, the time is.
Speaker 5 (20:07):
What one forty seven fifteen?
Speaker 7 (20:11):
As part of examining the camera, did you also have
occasion to find some how did it?
Speaker 4 (20:16):
What We're gonna have some man as dude in the shower.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
Will examining the the memory.
Speaker 10 (20:22):
Colors about that Exhibit one.
Speaker 7 (20:57):
You recognize that, Yes, were these the items that were
also part of the memory stick from this camera that
we've been talking about.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yes, and you were the one that actually pulled them up.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Crap.
Speaker 7 (21:08):
Yes, and the times and the date on there. They
also appear on this end case report and then added.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
To the photogras.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Yes, just so that we're clear the time and date.
Is that something that came from a computer or is
that something that came from the memory stick itself?
Speaker 5 (21:25):
It came it was put there about the camera itself
when it saved the photo to the camera to the
memory stick all over the vision.
Speaker 11 (21:39):
Not that you Exhibit's one forty one through one sixty.
Speaker 7 (21:43):
Or take a look at one and what's the date
in time.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Six four eight at five twenty four?
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Were you out at the Queensboro address that's part of
the investigation or not?
Speaker 5 (22:07):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (22:08):
Did you go happen to go upstairs to look where
the body was found?
Speaker 5 (22:13):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (22:14):
And do you happen to recognize this shower area?
Speaker 5 (22:19):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Is this the area where the body was found?
Speaker 5 (22:24):
From what I was told, I wasn't there when the
body was there?
Speaker 7 (22:27):
Okay, how about when you were there? And was the
body there when you went there?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Or had the body been removed?
Speaker 5 (22:32):
I believe it was it was removed when I saw
the shower.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Okay.
Speaker 7 (22:37):
And the time there is five twenty two and twenty
four seconds right, yes, Exhibit number one forty two.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Is how what time is it on there?
Speaker 5 (22:51):
It's that five two thirty six.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
By my calculation, that's twelve seconds apart. Correct.
Speaker 7 (22:57):
Yes, So hence my question in terms of the camera,
if there's twelve seconds between it, is that a function
of the person adjusting for the shot or is it
a function of the camera not requiring some maybe focusing
or something.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Can you tell at all or not?
Speaker 5 (23:17):
It would to me it would be more of a
function of the person taking that time to take another photo.
Speaker 7 (23:23):
And if a person were to take this photograph the camera,
would it given the way the photographs are taken, would
the camera have to be in the right hand or
the left hand?
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Naturally you would take the photo with your right hand.
That's the easiest way to do it.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
And why do you say that's the easiest way to do.
Speaker 5 (23:46):
It, because with the left hand you have to reach
across the other side of the camera you hand to
press the button to take the photo.
Speaker 7 (23:54):
And would you then run the danger, if you will,
of putting your finger in front of the.
Speaker 5 (23:59):
Right to some beach over them?
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Exhibit this is that.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
Five fifty four.
Speaker 7 (24:11):
And if you look at this one, it seems a
lot darker, doesn't it. Yes, this camera, you did indicate
it had an auto feature.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Correct?
Speaker 7 (24:22):
Yes, If one is darker and one is not, what
does that indicate to you whether or not the camera
was an auto feature or not?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
What doesn't indicate anything at all?
Speaker 5 (24:36):
It may indicate that it was being messed with. I
don't know.
Speaker 7 (24:39):
Well, in terms of the lighting, if a lighting hadn't
been changed, let's assume that and one is darker like
this than the other What does that mean in terms
of the camera and the settings on it?
Speaker 5 (24:54):
The setting could have been changed.
Speaker 7 (24:56):
And so somebody would have had to change the settings
right Exhibit one forty four.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
This is at what time?
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Five twenty three zero zero?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
And how many seconds later? Is that sick? Exhibit one
forty five. What do we see there? Is the exposure?
Speaker 7 (25:23):
In other words, is the lighting there the same as
in the previous two?
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Is appears to be similar?
Speaker 7 (25:29):
And when was this taken five twenty three twenty four?
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Exhibit one forty six. What time was this.
Speaker 5 (25:41):
Taken five twenty three thirty?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
How many seconds apart?
Speaker 11 (25:45):
Six?
Speaker 2 (25:47):
I foight Exhibit one forty seven. What time was it.
Speaker 5 (25:53):
Taken five twenty four thirty?
Speaker 7 (25:56):
And the previous one was taken one time five three?
Exhibit one forty eight. See that, Yes, I want you
to compare it to exhibit an Exhibit one forty seven.
What side of the face is the person? What side
of the face is being photographed?
Speaker 5 (26:18):
The right side and an.
Speaker 7 (26:20):
Exhibit one side the left side? They both appear to
be getting wet, don't they see that?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Right there? And you see that right there?
Speaker 7 (26:31):
Yes, the positioning of the person taking it changed right
taking the photograph.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
It appears correct sustained.
Speaker 7 (26:41):
If when you were up there you saw where the
shower head was right, yes, did the showerhead position change?
Speaker 2 (26:50):
No?
Speaker 7 (26:52):
Did you see any other shower head that would have
spotted out water or other than that one?
Speaker 5 (26:58):
I just saw one shot.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
See the difference in times there?
Speaker 6 (27:02):
What are they?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Can you tell cat Bury?
Speaker 5 (27:04):
I can't remember.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
I'm bringing in lurry and I'll see it.
Speaker 5 (27:10):
There five twenty four forty eight?
Speaker 2 (27:12):
So how many seconds apart are they? Eighteen Exhibit one
nine Again, it's the left side of his head, correct, Yeah,
And the times some of.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
These five twenty four fifty two, five twenty four it's
kind of blurry. I think it's says forty.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Eight, all right? And if it is forty eight, how
many second differential is that?
Speaker 5 (27:40):
Four?
Speaker 7 (27:44):
Now, if we take a look at Exhibit one fifty,
are you able to tell where the water is coming from?
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (27:52):
What part?
Speaker 5 (27:53):
It's on the right side of the photo? Upper right?
Pardon upper right side of the photo.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
Can you tell from.
Speaker 7 (27:59):
This hold the individual was taking this photograph? Or is
it such that the photograph has a zoom kind of
feature that would prevent you from doing that?
Speaker 5 (28:11):
The camera does have zoom, so I wouldn't know how
close they.
Speaker 7 (28:15):
Were, but it is the what side of the face
is that?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
That's the left side of it and the time.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
Five twenty four fifty six, five twenty four fifty two and.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
That's four seconds differentially, right?
Speaker 5 (28:30):
Correct?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Exhibit one, what does this upp hear?
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Water from the shower?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
And do you have any idea what these droplets could be?
Speaker 5 (28:57):
It could be from the door, shower door, It could
be because it could be water that got on the
camera lens itself.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Okay, how much? What's the time on this one?
Speaker 5 (29:07):
Five twenty five zero zero?
Speaker 7 (29:10):
And the differential between that one and the previous one
four seconds?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Exhibit one.
Speaker 5 (29:25):
Five twenty nine.
Speaker 7 (29:28):
Based on what you see there, can you tell whether
or not the person's standing or not?
Speaker 5 (29:33):
To me, he looks like he's saying.
Speaker 7 (29:37):
And the differential between that one and the previous exhibit
is how much time?
Speaker 5 (29:43):
Four minutes and twenty seconds?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Well, okay, Exhibit one sixteen. What's the time on that
five minutes?
Speaker 5 (29:55):
I'm sorry, five thirty thirty seven.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
And the previous time was.
Speaker 5 (30:02):
Five twenty nine twenty.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Let's take a look at some other exhibits.
Speaker 7 (30:09):
Exhibit number one fifty eight. What's the time there?
Speaker 5 (30:18):
It's kind of blurry on my end here, kids, let
me have you a look at five twenty eighth. I'm sorry,
I may need to get less. It's five twenty nine twelve.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
What is it five twenty nine twelve?
Speaker 5 (30:31):
I can't tell. I can't tell if decimate or not.
I may need to get my session beating old?
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Is that five twenty nine twenty.
Speaker 5 (30:37):
Five twenty nine twenty on the street?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
And this one right here is five twenty nine twelve?
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Right?
Speaker 8 (30:42):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Exhibit one fifty seven is what time?
Speaker 5 (30:50):
Five twenty eight fifty four?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Phibit one fifty six.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
Is five twenty seven twenty eight.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Exhibit one fifty five is what time?
Speaker 5 (31:06):
Five twenty seven eighteen?
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Exhibit one fifty four?
Speaker 5 (31:16):
Guess what five twenty seven twelve?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
On Exhibit one fifty three.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
And five twenty six fifty.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Seven, Exibit one sixty is.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
Five thirty thirty.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Did you also recover another grouping of photographs from the
memory stick of that dot camera?
Speaker 5 (31:49):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (31:49):
I did.
Speaker 7 (31:57):
How look at that Exhibits one sixty one, one sixty two,
and one sixty three.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Do you recognize those?
Speaker 5 (32:04):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (32:06):
You imag that you also located in.
Speaker 7 (32:08):
The unallocated portion of that memory stick. Yes, move for
the admission of exhibits number one sixty one one sixth period.
Speaker 9 (32:21):
Okaytion exhibits one sixty one, one sixty two and one sixty.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Three year.
Speaker 7 (32:30):
Yourn Look at the exhibit one sixty one.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
What do we look? What do you see there?
Speaker 5 (32:43):
It's the ceiling area and the upper wall portion of
uh the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
What is this over here?
Speaker 5 (32:50):
The door frame?
Speaker 2 (32:52):
And what is this right here?
Speaker 5 (32:56):
This metal look to me looks like the shower area.
It looks what it might be the shower area. I'm
not sure it might be the shower the shower door.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
You mean?
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
And the times.
Speaker 5 (33:09):
Six four eight, five thirty one, fourteen.
Speaker 7 (33:13):
Versus the previous exhibit, which is exhibit number one.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
Sixty it's at five thirty thirty.
Speaker 7 (33:21):
It's approximately about forty five seconds apart.
Speaker 8 (33:25):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (33:28):
When you obtain things or find things and this memory stick,
can you tell whether.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Or not the.
Speaker 7 (33:37):
Photograph is was taken right side up with the camera
right side up or the camera rights upside down?
Speaker 5 (33:43):
I will have to look at the image and I
can determine that.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Yes, So you can't do that, Yes, And you can
do that in this case.
Speaker 7 (33:49):
Right, yes, with regard to this particular before we leave it.
This area up here, it's a ceiling, right, yes, you.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Don't see any floor? Do you know what floor trim is?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (34:05):
You do you see any floor trim anywhere here or anything? No?
Just basically see a ceiling, right yes?
Speaker 7 (34:11):
And was this right side up? Was the camera right
side up when this picture was snapped? Or was the
camera upside down?
Speaker 5 (34:18):
Right side up?
Speaker 7 (34:22):
Take a look at the exhibit one sixty two. First
of all, when you when you recovered this photograph, were
you able to know or tell us whether or not
the camera when it snapped this photograph? Was it right
side up or was it upside down?
Speaker 5 (34:44):
It was upside down?
Speaker 2 (34:45):
How do you know that?
Speaker 5 (34:46):
Because when I looked at the original image it was
upside down.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
And this area down here, can you tell what that is?
Speaker 5 (34:56):
That's the floor?
Speaker 2 (35:00):
What this is?
Speaker 5 (35:02):
It's a stain that looks like blood?
Speaker 6 (35:03):
No?
Speaker 2 (35:03):
No, is it the floor?
Speaker 5 (35:04):
Is floor?
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Maybe?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
My question was not? And if we take a.
Speaker 7 (35:10):
Look flooring, I'm sorry, if we take a look at
exhibit number one sixty one, are we looking at a
floor there or.
Speaker 5 (35:20):
Not looking at the ceiling?
Speaker 2 (35:21):
And you've done this issue with cameras and photographs? How
many cases have you worked.
Speaker 12 (35:27):
Involving that.
Speaker 5 (35:29):
Numerous cases?
Speaker 2 (35:30):
When you say numerous, you've worked on one or two
or how many?
Speaker 5 (35:33):
Over one hundred cases dealing with different types of media.
Speaker 7 (35:36):
And with regard to photographs, you've seen many photographs? I yes,
when I say many? How many are many?
Speaker 1 (35:43):
To you?
Speaker 5 (35:44):
Hundreds of thousands?
Speaker 7 (35:46):
And with regard to those, have you been able to
develop an idea, if you will, or an opinion based
on that, having viewed all these hundreds of thousands of photographs,
as to an opinion as to where that camera.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
Was in Exhibit.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
One sixty two, in other words, floor or somewhere else.
Speaker 5 (36:13):
It would have to be off the ground.
Speaker 7 (36:15):
And would it have to be right above the ground
higher off the ground?
Speaker 5 (36:20):
What is your opinion at least to at least three
feet two to three feet?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
And would that be an area that's wasted?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
High?
Speaker 3 (36:28):
It could be?
Speaker 2 (36:30):
And the time here is five thirty two sixteen correct?
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Correct?
Speaker 2 (36:35):
And if we take a.
Speaker 7 (36:36):
Look at Exhibit one's sixty one, how much time has passed?
Speaker 5 (36:41):
Almost a minute?
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Actually be like a minute and two seconds? Win it?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
I think.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (36:52):
Then if we take a look at Exhibit one sixty three.
What is this down here?
Speaker 5 (36:57):
That's the floor baseboard.
Speaker 7 (37:02):
And you see a massive s sort right, Yes, and
it looks like it has some reddish lines coming down right.
Speaker 5 (37:12):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (37:15):
Take a look at the exhibit one sixty two. Do
you see any reddish lines there?
Speaker 5 (37:20):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (37:21):
And time on this one, and I think i'd probably
have to give this too because it's really blurry.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
Sixty five thirty one thirty two?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
What would you bring it up closer?
Speaker 5 (37:35):
Maybe? Oh? Six different?
Speaker 8 (37:38):
Now that's it.
Speaker 5 (37:39):
Let me just bring in okay, five thirty three thirty two?
Speaker 7 (37:43):
Sorry, all right?
Speaker 5 (37:46):
And the one before it is what five thirty two sixteen?
Speaker 2 (37:52):
This one? Was it right side up or upside down?
Speaker 5 (37:57):
Upside down?
Speaker 7 (37:58):
And where was the camera, given your expertise, when it
took exhibit number.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
One sixty three on the ground. How about with regard
to Exhibit one's sixty two, where was the camera when.
Speaker 5 (38:10):
It took that photograph on the ground?
Speaker 7 (38:14):
It's part of your investigation in this case. Did you
also happened to examine a computer in this case?
Speaker 8 (38:21):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Where was the computer found at the crime scene that you.
Speaker 5 (38:25):
Examined in the office space on the first floor with.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Regard to a computer, Well, this computer, when were you
able to tell whether it was on or off at
the time that it was taken by the police.
Speaker 5 (38:45):
Prior to me taking it? It was what I call
sleep mode.
Speaker 4 (38:48):
What is sleep mode?
Speaker 5 (38:50):
Basically when you turn on your computer after and it's
a setting on it. After some amount of time that
there's no activity, the monitor would basically shut off. The
monitor goes dark.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
And what's the purpose of that?
Speaker 5 (39:02):
To say battery?
Speaker 2 (39:04):
And this was in sleep mode? Then right?
Speaker 1 (39:08):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (39:09):
And and is this after a certain period of time
that it goes into sleep mode?
Speaker 5 (39:13):
It's a setting.
Speaker 8 (39:13):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (39:15):
And in examining this, were you able to tell when
was the last time that anyone whoever may have been
actually did anything with it, either viewed something, send something?
Speaker 5 (39:30):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (39:31):
When was that?
Speaker 5 (39:32):
I had to look at my report, go.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Ahead and take do you have it there? And on
my yes, look at the three.
Speaker 7 (39:40):
Forty seven which you should report and find it and.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Then let me don't want you to do that so
that we can continue.
Speaker 5 (39:54):
It shows that the well read it to yourself, okay, once.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
You've read it, what time, day and time?
Speaker 5 (40:01):
June fourth, two thousand and eight, fifteen thirty four forty
nine hours, which is three thirty four forty nine pm.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
I did you do anything else with regard to this laptop?
It was a laptop, right, Yes?
Speaker 5 (40:17):
What else did you do with regard to it at
the scene? I removed power from it, which is what
we do when we seize it. You've removed power, so
there's nothing else, no other activity. I labeled it and
then I packaged it. I believe I returned the following
day to take it to the evidence section and turn
it into the evidence section.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
One of the things that.
Speaker 7 (40:41):
Some computers have are that there are password protected.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Do you know what that means? Yes?
Speaker 5 (40:47):
What does that mean that you need a password to
gain access to the computer?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Did you need a password to get into the computer
or not?
Speaker 1 (40:56):
No?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
How is it that you can bypass it?
Speaker 5 (40:59):
Because I go and look at the actual data on
the drive, it's not the same that's looking at what
you see on your desktop.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Okay, let me go ahead and have that.
Speaker 7 (41:14):
Did you also have occasion to examine a phone to telephone?
Speaker 5 (41:18):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (41:19):
And what kind of telephone was it?
Speaker 5 (41:21):
Pocket PC?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
And where it was telephone from?
Speaker 5 (41:24):
It was also located in the office.
Speaker 7 (41:27):
And with regard to that, did you happen to look
at the text messages that were.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
On some of them anyway.
Speaker 5 (41:35):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (41:36):
And when I said some of them, were you able
to look at all of them?
Speaker 10 (41:39):
No?
Speaker 2 (41:40):
And were you able to extract when you conducted your examination?
Speaker 7 (41:47):
Were you able to extract the text messages from that
cell phone?
Speaker 5 (41:52):
No?
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Why not?
Speaker 5 (41:54):
There was no technology at the time that could extract it.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
And when we say it extract, what do we mean
remove it, pull it out and put it in a
form that we could look at it.
Speaker 5 (42:04):
Yes, like a piece of paper, either a file or
you could print it out to a piece of paper.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (42:11):
And that was not available at the time though, right, No,
But it has since has since become available, hasn't it.
Speaker 5 (42:17):
Yes, that's my understanding.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
I don't have any questions thinking.
Speaker 10 (42:22):
Cross examination.
Speaker 5 (42:24):
Detective, good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
Let me just get set up, all right. I want
to talk to you first about the camera that you examined, okay.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Yes, all right?
Speaker 3 (42:36):
And that camera when you first when you first got it,
you saw that it was in the washer, right, Yes.
And when you saw that it was in the washer,
the camera was all in one piece.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (42:46):
In other words, the memory stick was inside the camera.
Speaker 5 (42:48):
Yes, it was.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
It had not been taken out prior to you take
or someone else taking it out. Yes, and the camera
when you after you you had to buy a plug
for it or a power source.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
And once you did that, the camera functioned properly as.
Speaker 5 (43:04):
Far as it turned on.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
Yes, okay, you didn't have any other issues with the
camera working.
Speaker 5 (43:08):
No.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
And in fact, the camera you showed it to us today,
it's not crushed in any way, right. No, it doesn't
appear that it was stepped on or kicked.
Speaker 5 (43:18):
I couldn't tell if it was kicked.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
No, I'm sorry kick to ruin it. In other words,
it doesn't appear.
Speaker 5 (43:23):
To be It doesn't appear to be ruined.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
No, okay, And it doesn't appear that there's nothing actually
broken on it.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
Is there of the denda button you pressed to take photos?
That's missing on it?
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Right now?
Speaker 5 (43:38):
I'm sorry it dismissing The button to take photos is
not on it.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
It wasn't like that when you examined it, though.
Speaker 5 (43:43):
Right when I examined it, it fell off the camera as
I was handling the camera. That that button that goes
on there fell off and.
Speaker 3 (43:50):
I put it with the camera, all right, And that
button is it sits on the top of the camera.
Speaker 5 (43:54):
Doesn't it. It's like a rubber button, yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (43:57):
And so if the camera is sitting upside down, do
you suggest in those pictures, those last two pictures taken
on the floor, Yes, that button would be hitting the ground,
wouldn't it.
Speaker 5 (44:09):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (44:10):
All right?
Speaker 3 (44:10):
And the memory stick there was a memory stick inside
the camera.
Speaker 5 (44:14):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
And when you when you got the camera, it wasn't wet,
was it?
Speaker 5 (44:21):
I could not tell I was wearing gloves.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Well, you didn't note anything in your report that it
was wet, right, No, all right? And same with a
memory stick. That didn't appear to be wet either.
Speaker 5 (44:30):
Like I said, I don't know if it was wet
or not because I couldn't touch it hand in hand.
I touched it with gloves on. So if it was moist,
I can tell.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
Okay, But you looked.
Speaker 5 (44:37):
At it, right, Yeah, I didn't see water on it, now.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
All right.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
And you didn't note anything in your report about it
being wet. No, didn't smell like bleach, did it?
Speaker 5 (44:46):
I can't recall.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
Okay, Well, if it smelled weird like that, If it
smelled like bleach, you would have noted that.
Speaker 10 (44:51):
In your report.
Speaker 5 (44:51):
Right, I'm not sure really.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
If it was something unusual about the camera, you don't
think you would have known.
Speaker 7 (45:00):
Don't know.
Speaker 5 (45:00):
I'm trying to I don't want to be mean, but
there was other smells in that location at the time.
I don't think I could smell bleach.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
Okay, Well, let's talk about when you didn't actually do
your forensic review in the house, right, Okay, So at
some point later when you're doing your forensic review, you
never noticed any funny smell like bleach coming from the camp.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
No, No, not at that time though, all right.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
And the memory stick that also didn't appear to be
crushed in any way. No, didn't look like somebody smashed
it or anything.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
No.
Speaker 3 (45:37):
I tried to break it wasn't bent. All right, the pictures,
I'm gonna talk to you a little bit about the
pictures that we just looked at of mister Alexander in
the shower. Okay, yes, all right, these pictures it appears.
Speaker 13 (45:52):
Let's see, and I think you noted it in your
report too.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
The pictures begin of mister Alexander in the shower at
five twenty two twenty four, yes, all right, and that's
five twenty two in the afternoon, Yes, on June fourth,
that's correct. And in this time period of five twenty
two up till five point thirty, there's many pictures taken
in mister Alexander in the shower.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Right, correct.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
And some of his poses are in different places, aren't they.
I mean in different positions, different positions. In other words,
he's able to turn one way and then turn another. Yes,
And on these pictures it doesn't appear that he's injured
(46:49):
in any way, right no, And at least in the
beginning of these pictures, it doesn't appear that he's involved
in any altercation, right no. And I know that we
can see in some of the pictures you can see
the right side of his face, yes, right, And then
in other pictures you can see the left side of
his face.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Yes, And that's because.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
He turned around, right, yes, sir.
Speaker 10 (47:12):
And I'm showing you.
Speaker 3 (47:16):
Exhibit number one forty eight.
Speaker 4 (47:19):
All right.
Speaker 3 (47:19):
This is Exhibit one forty eight where we see the
left side of mister Alexander's face.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Yes, And you can.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
See the water running off the back of his head,
is that right?
Speaker 5 (47:27):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (47:28):
And that would be consistent with the faucet being behind him. Yeah,
all right, and then also there were other pictures taken
what appear to be taken on that day, on June fourth, right, Yes,
there's pictures taken earlier in the day, correctly, And those
are those pictures that we saw of mister Alexander and
(47:50):
some of miss Arias, the nude photos. Yes, and those
only some of those time stamped right from.
Speaker 5 (48:03):
Whatever cod is.
Speaker 3 (48:04):
Okay, Well, when I see timestamped, I mean only you
were able to get information from the forensic program you
used to get those pictures, right.
Speaker 5 (48:11):
Right, from the data that the camera that it in
the file.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
Right, So, in other words, the information that that's on
those pictures, the red writing that actually comes from your
forensic program.
Speaker 5 (48:22):
Not the red writing itself, the information does.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
Oh did you put the red writing on it? No,
somebody else did then.
Speaker 5 (48:29):
I don't know, I think put red writing on it
all right, do.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
You disagree that that's the time of those pictures?
Speaker 5 (48:35):
That's the accurate time?
Speaker 3 (48:36):
Okay, those pictures. Okay, so those pictures, we saw them,
and I don't think we need to see him again.
But obviously there's a picture of mister Alexander, right, you
can see his face in one of those pictures. You ever,
and obviously there's a picture of miss Arias in those pictures, right, correct,
(48:57):
And at least one of those photos you can see
her face correct, and so anyone and in those pictures.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (49:09):
Then we get to the picture showing you Exhibit number
one fifty nine.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
Okay, and I.
Speaker 3 (49:16):
Believe you testified on direct that it appeared that mister
Alexander was seated in this picture. Yes, and you can
tell that because his arms are out like this.
Speaker 5 (49:24):
By the position of him, it appears that he's sitting.
Speaker 3 (49:27):
Yes, okay, Well it looks really similar to the position
in exhibit number one sixty, doesn't it with his arms out?
Speaker 5 (49:34):
Correct?
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (49:35):
And one's sixty is just as though the camera just
didn't mean to take it. It's obviously not in his face, right,
camera sustained the picture is not of mister Alexander's face, correct,
all right. And then in an exhibit actually, let's look
at it on more time an exhibit one sixty. That
time is five thirty and thirty seconds correct. And then
(50:01):
at the next picture in the order, Oh, that's hard
to see. Can you see the time on that?
Speaker 1 (50:05):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (50:05):
Yes, five thirty one fourteen okay, five thirty one fourteen.
That's the next picture photo taken right?
Speaker 5 (50:11):
Correct?
Speaker 2 (50:12):
And I believe you.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
Testified on direct that that you believe in your expert
opinion that that photo is taken about two to three
off two to three feet off the.
Speaker 5 (50:21):
Ground, Yes, based on the angle that you.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
See, okay, and that that's based on your experience in
dealing with media type of cases, right, yes, okay. And
it's blurry, isn't it correct? It appears because of the blurry,
and because it's not focused on anything, it appears to
be an unintentional picture, wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 5 (50:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (50:49):
All right?
Speaker 3 (50:49):
And then just over a minute later, at five thirty
two sixteen, we're looking at exhibit number one sixty two,
and this is the picture where you can see what
would appear to be blood or some type of a
substance coming down the right hand side of mister Alexander.
Speaker 10 (51:07):
Right.
Speaker 3 (51:07):
Yes, And in your report you said it appears that
he's ceased in this photo. Yes, And this is just
a minute or this is just a little over a minute,
isn't it? After the unintentional photo of the ceiling.
Speaker 5 (51:24):
Based on what I can't recalled exact time, So I
was here I'll have to take your word that it
is over a minute, okare.
Speaker 3 (51:30):
I just want to make sure you know that one
the ceiling is five thirty one fourteen correct, okay, and
then the next picture is five thirty two sixteen. Yes, okay,
I did the math right, Okay, okay, just checking because
you know, all right. And when we see the picture
of mister Alexander on the floor, the one at five
(51:54):
thirty two, which is exhibit number one sixty two, yes,
you believe in your expert opinion that the care is
on the floor at that time.
Speaker 5 (52:02):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
And not only is it on the floor, but it's
flipped upside down. So if someone even wanted to, they
certainly couldn't reach the button to take a photo, right, No,
because the button's on the ground.
Speaker 5 (52:15):
Would have to be yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (52:18):
And same thing with the next photo in sequence, which
is another picture of the hallway zip at number one
sixty three, taken at five thirty three thirty two. That
also is where the camera is upside down. Yes, and
again if the camera's upside down, then that means that
the photo the button to take the photo is on
(52:40):
the ground. Yes, all right, you talked just briefly about
this pocket PC which is a phone. Yes, Yeah, you
were able to look at it, right, Yes, and you
were able to power it on, yes, And so because
you were able to power it on, you were able
to look and see if there were text mess and
other things on that phone.
Speaker 14 (53:01):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (53:02):
But you said that you weren't able to extract anything
off the phone, correct. And when you say extract, that's
a forensic word, right, more or less? Yes, So in
other words, you couldn't plug it into anything to download
what was on the phone onto something else, correct, all right,
But you could have taken pictures of what was on
the phone, right, It depends. Well, I mean, if you
(53:26):
had a camera, which I'm sure mesa police department does,
you could have snapped photos of each text message if
you wanted to.
Speaker 5 (53:32):
Write my recollection, there were over fifteen thousand text messages
on that phone, so that's quite a few, not quite
a few, plenty, okay.
Speaker 3 (53:40):
So but there was nothing stopping you from reviewing that
and taking pictures of the text messages.
Speaker 5 (53:47):
If I had eight months.
Speaker 3 (53:49):
To do just that, maybe, okay, But physically it's possible,
isn't it.
Speaker 5 (53:54):
Yeah, if I was given eight months to do it.
Speaker 3 (53:55):
Yes, okay, all right. Then you also you also looked
at the laptop, right, yes, And this was a laptop
when you walked onto the scene. This was the laptop
that was in the den.
Speaker 5 (54:13):
I was told that was his office and it was
a desk. It looked like an office to me.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (54:17):
So this office, this was right off the garage entryways,
wasn't it.
Speaker 10 (54:22):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (54:22):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (54:23):
And do you remember that next to the office across
the hallway was a bathroom.
Speaker 5 (54:28):
I don't be called the bathroom when I showed the
dollars closed and I just didn't.
Speaker 3 (54:31):
See it, okay, But this was this office was on
the first floor, right yes. And when you walked into
the office, this laptop was plugged in. It had a
power source.
Speaker 5 (54:43):
It did have a power sauce.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
Yes, all right.
Speaker 3 (54:45):
And when we talk about power source, that means it
was plugged in, right yes. And then you were able
to do a forensic examination of this particular laptop. Yes,
And when just the worst the laptop you've based on
some of the information you found, you believed it belonged
(55:05):
to mister Alexander, right, correct. And it's a compact cresario.
Speaker 5 (55:10):
Yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
One of the things that you have noted in your
report you say product ID and it said virus alert.
What does that mean to you?
Speaker 5 (55:22):
Product ID is just the ID number for and I
had to look at my report to tell you.
Speaker 3 (55:28):
But oh, I think I have it up here, judge
my ever, it's just at the top of that.
Speaker 5 (55:36):
Yeah, I don't know what that stand for. South. Usually
a product ID would be the ID number of the
operating system.
Speaker 3 (55:45):
So if it says virus alert there, does that mean
that there was a virus going on?
Speaker 5 (55:48):
It could be that that's just what was written in there.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (55:52):
Okay, did you do any further investigation about it?
Speaker 5 (55:55):
I did not see any signs of viruses on the computer.
Speaker 3 (55:57):
Dannel, Okay, But I mean you did investigate any further
as to what that meant product ID virus alert.
Speaker 5 (56:04):
By looking at the computer and checking for viruses, which
I did, I did not see anyone.
Speaker 3 (56:09):
Okay, Now the laptop. Let's see. Along with the laptop,
there was also a bunch of CDs that were taken
to from the den from his office. Yes, yes, from
the office. And you eventually looked at those CDs as well, Yes,
And based on your examination, and I'm looking looking at
(56:33):
the middle of the page on your report there, the
same page that we just looked at. Okay, you said,
based on your examination, the last exula proceed all right.
Based on your examination, the last activity on that particular
laptop was on June fourth, two thousand and eight, at
(56:57):
about sixteen fifty four in the after sixteen fifty four, yes, okay,
And sixteen fifty four is military time for fifty four, right,
all right, So at about four fifty four in the afternoon,
that's the last time that that laptop was accessed.
Speaker 5 (57:13):
Last time I saw any signs of activity on it
as far as being used.
Speaker 3 (57:17):
Okay, So any time any sign of activity as far
as being used that can be using it to view CDs.
Speaker 5 (57:24):
Using it to go on in andet. Based on looking
at it, I could see that there was activity that someone
had to to initiate, Okay.
Speaker 3 (57:31):
So you could tell that. So you know, in your expertise,
in your expert opinion, you know that this laptop was
last accessed at almost close to five PM on June fourth. Yes,
and based on the timing of the photos, that would
be about twenty twenty five minutes prior to the photos
beginning right the shower photos. Yes, So you talked a
(57:55):
little bit about the photos. Some of the photos that
you recovered that they had and deleted, they were actually deleted, yes,
but you don't have any knowledge about when they were deleted.
Speaker 5 (58:06):
No.
Speaker 3 (58:09):
And some of the photos. Hold on one second, the
photos that were taken in the afternoon, the nude photos, Yes,
those appeared to be taken by a person, right, Yes,
and based on the timing, there's no reason to believe
that they were auto timed photos. Preset photos. I couldn't tell,
(58:34):
but it doesn't appear to be non okay, And from
the angles of the photos, it certainly appears that they
were taken by someone else. Yes, all right, thank you.
Speaker 2 (58:43):
Nothing further than.
Speaker 11 (58:46):
Redirect.
Speaker 7 (58:48):
So one of the things that you were asked about
was the photograph involving mister Alexander and when he was sitting.
Speaker 4 (58:55):
Down if you remember that one.
Speaker 15 (58:56):
Yes, the series of.
Speaker 2 (58:59):
The photographs him in the shower, right, yes, let's take
it out. That would be exhibit number one sixty right, Yes,
what's the time on that?
Speaker 5 (59:11):
Five thirty thirty?
Speaker 7 (59:13):
And then we have another photograph, which is exhibit one
sixty one.
Speaker 2 (59:18):
This is the one that you told us was of
the ceiling, right, yes, and the time on.
Speaker 5 (59:22):
That is what five point thirty one fourteen?
Speaker 2 (59:25):
So how much time differences are between them.
Speaker 5 (59:30):
A little bit more than a minute?
Speaker 2 (59:31):
About a minute less?
Speaker 5 (59:33):
Pardon about forty five seconds or so during that time?
Speaker 7 (59:37):
During those forty five seconds, do you know what was happening? No,
and let me just look at the camera.
Speaker 6 (59:45):
Yeah, okay, in regard to this particular camera, and you
said that it was forty five seconds, right, yes?
Speaker 2 (59:56):
Did that take forty five seconds?
Speaker 10 (59:57):
Sir? Evidence that was just dropped on the floor.
Speaker 9 (01:00:04):
Reces, I mean the afternoon recess at this time, Ladies
and gentlemen, please be back in the designated area ten
minutes after three, and we will start promptly.
Speaker 11 (01:00:11):
At that time, please be seated. The record will show
the jury has left the courtroom.
Speaker 10 (01:00:23):
All right, your objection judge it.
Speaker 3 (01:00:26):
One, First of all, it's evidence, and it shouldn't be
ruined after it's already admitted into evidence and being taken
the chance of being broken. Two, it's an improper demonstration.
He's testifying instead of actually asking the question.
Speaker 10 (01:00:37):
Mister Martinez.
Speaker 7 (01:00:39):
Don't think if there's any legal process that defense counsel
has cited for you for the demonstration where something is dropped,
because if there were, there would be many instances where
people would be sanctioned when items were dropped, whether inadvertently
or intentionally, on the ground. I would note that in
this particular case carpet there it was dropped for approximately
(01:01:02):
one to two feet. So there is nothing improper about
a camera that has been made available to the defense
for testing, that has been tested by the state, and
there are no more tests to be conducted.
Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
So I don't see any.
Speaker 7 (01:01:16):
Legal reason that Council has cited indicating that it is
improper for the prosecutor to drop the camera as he did.
Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
The legal reasoning is it's improper for a prosecutor on
direct examination to be testifying rather than asking a question,
and so when he's dropping the camera, he's trying to
demonstrate something I'm not sure which, but it's testifying rather
than asking the detective a question like how long it
would take to fall. Furthermore, the fact that testing has
been done on this camera doesn't make it any better
(01:01:48):
for him to ruin evidence after it's already been admitted.
We all know that we can't even draw on evidence,
draw diagram after it's been admitted. Much less break it.
And at this point, if there's anything broken on this
camera and now the jury could possibly can attribute it
to the fact that, well, maybe it was like that
at the scene. So I would ask the court who
admonish the state to not ruin any evidence that has
(01:02:09):
already been admitted.
Speaker 11 (01:02:11):
All right, your objections noted for the record.
Speaker 9 (01:02:13):
The answer of the witness will stand. Mister Martinez and
all counsel. If you intend to use evidence for demonstrative
purposes in the future, please approach the bench first so
that if there are any objections, they can be made
on the record before you use the evidence in that manner.
Speaker 15 (01:02:29):
Want to take a reason to make a record on
the mistrial motion for prosky to ormous conduct.
Speaker 5 (01:02:35):
Do you want to do that after the break or now?
Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
Let's do it now, your honor.
Speaker 15 (01:02:40):
And I do not have the exact date, but in
prior pleadings, when miss Arius had requested copies of the
text messages, the state had constant refrain in these things
was that we were asking for things that didn't exist
in previous testimony. Detective Melendez was on the stand and
(01:03:01):
he was asked if he looked through these messages.
Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
Mister Rereman.
Speaker 9 (01:03:07):
Before you proceed, I'm going to ask the witness to
please step down and out of the courtroom.
Speaker 10 (01:03:12):
Argument is occurring.
Speaker 3 (01:03:13):
Please return in approximately ten minutes.
Speaker 9 (01:03:21):
Waitness has left the court and meet you may proceed.
Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
Thank you.
Speaker 15 (01:03:24):
Apart from again the state's assertions and emotion that these
didn't exist and the resistance of providing these in discovery,
and this has been going on for over a year now.
The detective Melendez on June eighteenth, twenty ten, we were
(01:03:47):
in front of Judge Duncan. He was asked related to
text messages and emails, did you look through everything that
came up?
Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
Is that correct? Yes?
Speaker 5 (01:04:01):
But you did not make notice specific.
Speaker 15 (01:04:03):
Content nor did you print out of any content he says,
Is that correct? Either emails or text messages? He says either.
He says no. But then again in the prior testimony
in January, he had talked about going through every single email.
Here during the course of this trial, he says he
(01:04:23):
didn't have time to go everything.
Speaker 5 (01:04:25):
That would take eight months.
Speaker 15 (01:04:27):
So clearly now the testimony has changed based on what
Detective Melendez has told us. These test messages existed in
two thousand and eight when he first retrieved the phone.
That is in direct contrast to the state's prior pleadings
and his testimony today regarding what he did with the
(01:04:49):
text messages is a direct contrast with what he said before.
Of most prominence to this situation, of course, is what
the state has done in terms of asserting that these
messages didn't exist in face and miss areas, has continued
discovery requests. And what I would say to you now is,
having heard the detective sworn testimony a trial, that we
(01:05:12):
have a deceit on the state's part regarding to the
existence of these text messages when they were inquired about
back in two thousand and nine to twenty ten, which
motivated these hearings in front of Judge Duncan, and your honor,
we have put forth motions a prosecutory misconduct in front
of Judge Duncan at that time. We have renewed it
(01:05:33):
again now or excuse me, prior to now, in previously
had written motions and I would renew that again. And
I think what I would remind the court is, and
I can't cite the exact case at this point in time,
but one of the things we look for is the
com cumulative effect of the misconduct, and the misconduct in
this case is growing, warranting a mistrial.
Speaker 11 (01:05:57):
It's Martinez.
Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
Must keep in mind that this issue has already been litigated.
Not only has it been litigated, it has been litigated
at nauseum before Judge Duncan. And at some point there
has to be a.
Speaker 7 (01:06:13):
Duty of candor that the court has to take notice of.
Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
On behalf of the defense counsel, why didn't he cite you?
Speaker 7 (01:06:22):
If he's going to make this motion and accuse somebody
of deceit, why doesn't he cite you. To the transcript
of Detective Malendus, I don't know who he's talking about
when he talks about Detective Flores, this issue involves Detective Malendis.
Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Perhaps all Hispanics. Their names sound alike to him.
Speaker 7 (01:06:36):
But the bottom line with regard I'm not done yet
with regard to this issue, there is a duty of candor,
and the duty of candor applies to both sides. This
issue was litigated over and over and over again without
reference to the transcript. At that time, Detective Melendus indicated
(01:06:56):
that he couldn't get these text message. He could look
at them, but he couldn't get them in the sense
that he couldn't extract them so that he.
Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
Could print them out and give them to somebody.
Speaker 7 (01:07:08):
That's what he testified to He also testified that he
looked at some of them, but if they wanted him
to take photographs that it would take him too long
for him to do that. Subsequent to that, and what
is going to be shown on redirect is that technology
was developed. After the technology was developed, there was eight
hundred and ninety six pages of text messages that were obtained.
(01:07:32):
There was approximately between twenty five and thirty text messages
for page. I don't know if that equals twenty or
thirty thousand text messages, but it would have been impossible
for him to sit there and take a photograph of
each text message unless he had months and months to
do it, and they were not going to do that.
So the bottom line for the state is these motions
(01:07:53):
for reconsideration, where they're highly inflammatory, without anything to be
backing them up, at some point require a measure from
the prosecutor to say other than what he has only
said up to this point. Is that the record speak
for itself. The record speaks for itself, and the record
speaks for itself, and if there's any to see, it
involves the duty of candor of counsel.
Speaker 9 (01:08:14):
Thank you, mister Martinez. I want to make sure I
understand what you just said. When a technology became available,
these text messages were retrieved from the phone and made
available to defense counsel.
Speaker 11 (01:08:27):
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
That's true? That was approximately two years ago.
Speaker 10 (01:08:32):
All right, mister Nurmi.
Speaker 15 (01:08:34):
What happened in the pleadings. We talk about duty of candor.
What happened in the pleadings, And I might add inflammatory
comments regarding from the prosecutor, the defense councilor totally inappropriate
and demonstrative of the continued prosecutorial misconduct that we're experiencing
in this case. What the state said, not that there
(01:08:54):
was no technology or anything else. What they said in pleadings.
Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
He's right.
Speaker 15 (01:08:58):
I don't have the exact pleading right now, but that
they didn't exist. We kept asking for them in motion.
He said that they did not exist. That was the
response from the state. It's the cont seems to be
the constant referring to all this. There was nothing about
technology or updates or what have you. As a matter
of fact, when and I will refer the court back
to the testimony in regard to waiting this issue on
(01:09:23):
January tenth of twenty ten and April twentieth of twenty ten,
because this was subject of much litigation, and the court
can go back to the records of those proceedings in
front of Judge Duncan, and what we will see is
the detective Milandez did testify to something different now than
what he testified to back then.
Speaker 8 (01:09:44):
Then.
Speaker 15 (01:09:44):
He testified to, I looked at a few, I didn't
photograph any. There weren't any on there and I just
gave it back to Detective Flores.
Speaker 5 (01:09:52):
I didn't take any photographs.
Speaker 15 (01:09:54):
He did not talk about seeing all these messages because
back then that would have motivated inquiry as to why
they weren't handed over. And what we have now now
that we're in trial, the story changes. And again, Judge,
when we talk about candor, we've had demonstration throughout the
(01:10:15):
course of this trial that what was supposedly true to
the state when they were asserting a denial of discovery
motions in twenty ten has now changed in two thousand
and thirteen when we get to trial and there is
a candor problem called prosecutorial misconduct, it is cumulative and
it does warrant in this trial.
Speaker 9 (01:10:34):
In the case J Jeremy, have you had these text
messages for two years.
Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
Or approximately two years?
Speaker 15 (01:10:41):
Yes, well, I can't say it was subject to litigation
in twenty ten. I don't know when we got them
in twenty ten. We do have them, but that's not
the point. The point is the fact that we're hearing
testimony now that they were available in two thousand and eight,
and in twenty ten, when this litigation was going on,
the state denied their existence. That's the point. They were
(01:11:04):
eventually forced through Judge Duncan's order and through this extensive litigation,
they were eventually ordered to turn those over. But prior
to that, they claimed that they did not exist. What
we heard today was that they did. In fact, is
this in two thousand and eight and when Detective Melendez
did his record, and.
Speaker 9 (01:11:23):
What prejudice did your client suffer as a result.
Speaker 15 (01:11:27):
Judge the prejudice to my client?
Speaker 5 (01:11:31):
Obviously, we.
Speaker 15 (01:11:33):
Have Brady violations, your honor, We have Braady violations to
which I don't and obviously I.
Speaker 2 (01:11:39):
Haven't had time to brief this issue.
Speaker 15 (01:11:40):
I don't know that prejudices required under Brady violation when
there is direct hiding of exculpatory evidence, because we will
see later these text messages, and we put it in
pleadings that there are text messages of a sexually graphic
nature that are exculpatory, that demonstrate the abuse of nature
of the relationship. This caused I might add a great
(01:12:03):
deal of delay in this trial because it took months
of litigation for the State to turn over what they
already have. This is why we're part of the reason
why we're doing this trial in twenty thirteen instead of
twenty ten, because we had to litigate it, and once
we did, then our experts were confronted with thousands of
(01:12:23):
text messages. There was probably more than eight hundred pages.
I can't speak to that directly, but there were thousands
of text messages, emails.
Speaker 5 (01:12:30):
I have notebooks full of them.
Speaker 15 (01:12:31):
All that needed to be covered because the state back
in two thousand and eight did not come forward and
provide these two miss areas.
Speaker 2 (01:12:40):
All right.
Speaker 9 (01:12:40):
Well, I obviously did not preside over the evident tary
hearing in twenty ten, so I will need to go
back and look at Judge Duncan's ruling and the pleadings
related to that evident try hearing. I will give you
an opportunity to provide additional support for your motion in
the form of transcripts or anything else that you would
like the court to review the same the state if
(01:13:00):
there's anything else. So I will take your motion for
mistrial under advisement, and once I have had an opportunity
to look at these materials, I will roll. We're going
to take the recess hold and let's we're back in
the record. The record will show the presence of the
defendant and all counsel. The jury is not present, Miss Wilmot, I.
Speaker 3 (01:13:19):
Really add to the record regarding the camera being dropped
that it also is important with regard to any future
technological processes that might be done if there's any appella review. Okay,
your record.
Speaker 15 (01:13:28):
Is made and judgment, yes you may, all.
Speaker 9 (01:13:34):
Right, let's bring in the jury.
Speaker 11 (01:13:39):
Please be seated.
Speaker 9 (01:13:40):
The record will show the presence of the jury, the defendant,
and all counsel.
Speaker 11 (01:13:44):
You may continue.
Speaker 5 (01:13:46):
Your name off. So Michael Melendez, Sir, before the break,
we were talking about the camera and the time on Exhibits.
Speaker 7 (01:13:55):
One sixty and one sixty one, and you told me
that know by looking at it that it's approximately forty.
Speaker 2 (01:14:02):
Four seconds, right, Yes, do.
Speaker 7 (01:14:03):
You know anything that was going on just by examining
the camera and the photographs? Do you know anything that
was going on in those forty four seconds? No, anything
that you can tell us. It's what speculation on your part.
Speaker 5 (01:14:15):
It would be.
Speaker 8 (01:14:16):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (01:14:17):
With regard to the camera, one of the things that
you were asked about is whether whether or not the
camera can take photographs upside down. And we were talking
about Exhibits one sixty two and Exhibits one sixty three.
Do you remember that, Yes, the camera.
Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
Is exhibit what take that out please? And you indicated
that the photographs that I've just referenced were taken when
the camera was upside down. Yes, put it upside down
on the counter there got put somewhere just in front
(01:14:57):
of you right there in press on it and would
it be consistent or is it possible to take a
photograph with the camera that way?
Speaker 5 (01:15:08):
Yes, it would be.
Speaker 2 (01:15:09):
What are you required to do?
Speaker 5 (01:15:11):
It takes very little movement of the.
Speaker 2 (01:15:13):
Camera, So what are you required to do?
Speaker 5 (01:15:16):
Press the button down?
Speaker 2 (01:15:18):
And can you press it down with your hand?
Speaker 5 (01:15:20):
Not when it's upside down with.
Speaker 2 (01:15:22):
Put your hand on the top.
Speaker 5 (01:15:23):
Can you press it down, yes.
Speaker 2 (01:15:25):
Can you press it down with your foot? Sure? Can
you press it with any other part of your body
so that the mechanism that takes the photograph is engaged.
Speaker 5 (01:15:34):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (01:15:34):
You were asked about the previous photographs of the mister
Alexander in the shower.
Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
Do you remember those for example?
Speaker 5 (01:15:42):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (01:15:44):
And you were asked whether or not there were any
injuries there?
Speaker 5 (01:15:47):
Right, Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 7 (01:15:50):
And with regard to let's just pick one exhibit Exhibit
one sixty eight, which is part of the other photographs,
any injuries in those?
Speaker 5 (01:15:57):
No?
Speaker 2 (01:15:58):
And how about with regard.
Speaker 7 (01:15:59):
To exhibit one sixty two, any injuries there?
Speaker 5 (01:16:06):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (01:16:07):
You were asked about the smell of chlorox Are you
familiar with that?
Speaker 8 (01:16:10):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (01:16:11):
Are you familiar with washing clothing?
Speaker 5 (01:16:13):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (01:16:14):
When you put chlorox in, does it stay in there constantly?
Or is there a process whereby soap is added as
part of the washing process?
Speaker 1 (01:16:21):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (01:16:22):
Is there also softener at it as part of that process?
And if it's run through and you get to the
very end, are the clothes going to smell like chlorox?
Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
Not?
Speaker 1 (01:16:31):
Mine?
Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
No, pardon mine?
Speaker 1 (01:16:33):
Do not know.
Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
The purpose of putting?
Speaker 1 (01:16:37):
Well, I'll look at that.
Speaker 2 (01:16:43):
The issue of the text messages.
Speaker 5 (01:16:45):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (01:16:46):
If you were asked whether or not you looked at
some of the text messages, did.
Speaker 4 (01:16:49):
You look at some of the text messages?
Speaker 8 (01:16:51):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
Did you look at all of the text messages?
Speaker 5 (01:16:54):
No?
Speaker 2 (01:16:55):
Why not?
Speaker 5 (01:16:56):
There are too many?
Speaker 2 (01:16:57):
And you said that it would take a substantial period
of time.
Speaker 7 (01:17:01):
How much time would you have estimated that it would
have taken you to look at.
Speaker 2 (01:17:05):
All of those text messages and photograph each one individually?
Speaker 5 (01:17:09):
I would estimate if I did nothing else other than
just that doing my entire shift, it would have probably
taken me eight months or so.
Speaker 7 (01:17:17):
And subsequent to that, though, was there a technology that
was developed that made it possible to extract those text messages?
Speaker 5 (01:17:25):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
And was that done in this case to my understanding, yes,
So the answer is yesterday that the computer I must
I mis heard.
Speaker 7 (01:17:35):
When was the last time that there was any activity there?
Speaker 5 (01:17:40):
Well, the last time there was any activity that I
saw that was done by someone causing activity on the
computer using it was on six four, two thousand and eight,
at sixteen fifty four hours, sixteen fifty four, which is
just four fifty four pm.
Speaker 6 (01:17:56):
All right, You do you.
Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
Remember what activity that was?
Speaker 5 (01:18:03):
I don't remember the specific activity, but it would be
something that would lead me to believe that a user
was using it, whether it be someone going on the
internet or something to that effect. It would be someone
showing me on the on the when I'm analyzing it.
That was someone using it.
Speaker 2 (01:18:17):
And you check that computer to see whether or not
there were any viruses? Right, yes, and were you able
to find it?
Speaker 10 (01:18:22):
No.
Speaker 7 (01:18:23):
The other issue that you were asked about was with
regard to these photographs, all of them, you were asked
well about when they were deleted?
Speaker 2 (01:18:31):
Do you remember that?
Speaker 8 (01:18:32):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (01:18:33):
With regard to let's start with this one right here,
Exhibit one sixty two, see the date of the time there. Yes,
was that photograph deleted before five thirty two sixteen?
Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
No, when was it deleted in relationship to that time?
Speaker 5 (01:18:49):
It would have to be after it was taken.
Speaker 7 (01:18:51):
And the same thing with regard to Exhibit one sixty three.
Was it deleted before or after five thirty three thirty two?
Speaker 5 (01:19:03):
It will be after.
Speaker 7 (01:19:05):
And in order to delete that how many steps would
it take if they were just deleting one at a
time five And if they were deleting both of them,
and they were doing it one at a time, how
many steps forty.
Speaker 5 (01:19:16):
Take it would take the five initial steps and then
you will probably another two or three wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (01:19:23):
And so it would be seven or eight then right?
Speaker 1 (01:19:26):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (01:19:26):
And if if you were going to then delete this
other one individually? How many more steps are we talking about?
Speaker 2 (01:19:31):
Total?
Speaker 5 (01:19:32):
At least another two and three so total another maybe
twelve ten.
Speaker 2 (01:19:37):
I don't have any other questions.
Speaker 9 (01:19:40):
Does any member of the jury have a question for
this witness?
Speaker 11 (01:19:45):
I see no hands, think you may step down?
Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
Thank you statement, call us next witness, you take the
furs and stead.
Speaker 11 (01:19:57):
De take if you are still under rowth.
Speaker 9 (01:19:59):
Do you understand.
Speaker 2 (01:20:01):
Your neighbor it steven floats and you're the same individual test.
Speaker 4 (01:20:06):
Type for you?
Speaker 12 (01:20:07):
Do you say practice?
Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
Yes, you were talking about a plastication put at.
Speaker 4 (01:20:11):
The residence Brack that at the residence where mister.
Speaker 2 (01:20:15):
Alexander was found. Didn't remember that one?
Speaker 4 (01:20:18):
I'm gonna show you, uh.
Speaker 2 (01:20:20):
Two twenty one? Do you recognize this telephonia a cop
I mean, anything to do with that residence?
Speaker 5 (01:20:31):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (01:20:32):
And is that the telephone that was retrieved from the residents? Yes,
it was I remember for the admission.
Speaker 7 (01:20:37):
Of exhibit two twenty one, did.
Speaker 3 (01:20:42):
You say two two one? Or three two one two
two one two two two.
Speaker 4 (01:20:48):
Just look at it.
Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
See what list like about ganging and alcos container and
that's it crack. Yes, sir, John, your attention back to
July fifteenth of two.
Speaker 7 (01:21:05):
Thousand and eight. We previously talked about a conversation that
uh you had with the defendant, correct, yes. And previously
we also.
Speaker 2 (01:21:13):
Talked about whether or not you had read her Miranda warnings, right, yes,
and we played that day correct yes.
Speaker 1 (01:21:19):
Correct.
Speaker 4 (01:21:20):
As a part of that conversation, though, you you had,
you spoke to.
Speaker 2 (01:21:24):
Her about others, right, yes, I did. Initially before the
Miranda warnings were read, you asked her if she was
willing to sit down.
Speaker 5 (01:21:36):
With you, right, yes, I did, and she gave you.
Speaker 2 (01:21:38):
An answer, right yes. Does that set out in exhibit
number three forty eight.
Speaker 5 (01:21:47):
Yes, the initiative.
Speaker 7 (01:21:51):
Exhibit three forty eight.
Speaker 11 (01:21:57):
Three thirty eight is admitted.
Speaker 1 (01:22:07):
Everybody wants to know, okay, and you know, and so
I'm gonna ask you some questions you can voluntarily answered
if you want, mkay. Is that cool? Sir?
Speaker 4 (01:22:27):
At some point in the conversation, did you've talked to
her about whether or not.
Speaker 16 (01:22:34):
The defendant had a tribute to the a victim in
terms of photographs.
Speaker 4 (01:22:39):
Of Facebook in my space. A.
Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
So whether or not she'd had written a letter uh
to this auDA, Yes.
Speaker 4 (01:22:48):
Take a look at the Is it a number.
Speaker 2 (01:22:53):
Prefif is that work? Is this exhibit where she talks
about that issue? Yes, I do it. Objection three fifty
(01:23:13):
is admitted.
Speaker 10 (01:23:20):
Yeah. I know that a lot of people have been
posting on Facebook really nice things, you know, and memories,
and at one point I was like, well, maybe.
Speaker 8 (01:23:29):
I should do that.
Speaker 10 (01:23:30):
So I posted this thing and I just said all
my memories, and I realized looking back on it that
it was kind of kind of sounded immature. So it's
more like my dear Travis kind of letter, And so
I took it down because yeah, some of it was detailed,
more personal, not too personal, nothing inappropriate, just I just
(01:23:52):
felt funny. I think because I'm a photographer, I tend
to communicate more with the pictures. So I posted a
ton of pictures that I had of him, and I
have a ton more that I just can't access right now,
and videos and things that I know his family would want.
But so I posted pictures and I took that down,
and I posted something last week, but other than that.
(01:24:14):
I've been on Facebook in my space a lot, looking
at his profile, looking at his pictures, reading things about
his obituaries and any news updates. And you know, there's
legacy dot com where you can write something about him.
Speaker 7 (01:24:32):
It's part of this conversation that you had with her
again on July fifteenth. Did you then talk to her
about her move.
Speaker 12 (01:24:40):
To Mason and where she.
Speaker 4 (01:24:41):
Went and where she moved and.
Speaker 2 (01:24:44):
How was that she fought her place?
Speaker 5 (01:24:46):
Yes, so I did.
Speaker 2 (01:24:49):
They can look at uh exhibit three fifty one. Is
that set out in this exhibit? Yes, moving the admission
of okay, A three fifty one is admitted.
Speaker 1 (01:25:18):
Well, let's move to after the breakup?
Speaker 10 (01:25:20):
Oh okay, what.
Speaker 1 (01:25:24):
What kept you in Mesa at that point?
Speaker 10 (01:25:29):
I actually moved to Mesa a few weeks after we
broke up, really, I mean as far as the timeline goes,
but I mean, if you want to call it our
official break up, shortly thereafter, it's like we were still seeing.
Speaker 1 (01:25:42):
So you guys were seeing each other, but it was
a long distance type relationship.
Speaker 10 (01:25:46):
It was always long distance. When we were officially dating.
We didn't re dated. We dated from about the beginning
of February to about.
Speaker 1 (01:25:52):
The end of June, so February March.
Speaker 10 (01:25:55):
What made June about five months till?
Speaker 1 (01:25:57):
Okay, in June two thousand seven, that's broke up and
and then he moved to Masa.
Speaker 10 (01:26:05):
Yeah, I moved to Mesa sort of most people when
they break up, they kindly go there. I know where,
and there was in we plans were already in order
for me to move there. I was already speaking with
a friend who was, you know, was gonna be her roommate,
and I was her roommate for.
Speaker 12 (01:26:21):
A short time.
Speaker 10 (01:26:25):
She's kind of flighty s She's a great girl. Though
I had talked to Travis about maybe going to southern
California instead, Okay, and he's really he's he's really persuasive,
you persuade you to stay there Mesa A He's he
(01:26:47):
kind of was playing up all the advantages if I
did come to Mesa, and if I did, you know,
he said, you know, it's it's it's a great place.
We could still see each other and hang out on occasion.
Speaker 8 (01:27:00):
There.
Speaker 10 (01:27:00):
This church is very strong. You know, you'll you'll make
a lot of friends. And I already knew all this
stuff prior because I we talked about that, you know,
and so I went ahead and just made the move.
It sounded at the time like a good idea, and.
Speaker 1 (01:27:16):
You guys continued to kind of see each other at
that time.
Speaker 10 (01:27:19):
Yeah, at the time, I was sort of living more
across town over by Greenfield. Do you know where that is? Uh?
It was up Greenfield near Broadway, Greenfield Broadway where the
nearest cross streams, and that's where the girl that I
was originally talking with me, I moved.
Speaker 1 (01:27:32):
In with her.
Speaker 10 (01:27:32):
That's kind of far from Yeah. Yeah, the thing about
her and and just to give you a background of
why I moved, suddenly, she approached me the weekend after
I got there and said hey, she knocked on my
door and I talked to you for a second. I
said sure, And she moved in with her.
Speaker 1 (01:27:49):
Boyfriend and they were engaged, okay.
Speaker 10 (01:27:53):
And she said, hey, I just wanted to let you
know that Scott and I went to Vegas last week
and tied it up and I was like really, and
she's like, yeah, we've told me one, but we didn't
want to live, so we're gonna And she had already
been sealed in the temple once and was waiting for
her cancel.
Speaker 1 (01:28:05):
Or key to her shoe or whatever.
Speaker 10 (01:28:07):
Yeah, to be careful. So they were gonna have a
civil wedding on the beach in Oregon, and they did
that the following at at the following weekend. She told
me that on a Monday or Tuesday, what was the
beginning of the week. And she said, the reason I'm
telling you that is because I'm getting married this weekend
and I have to go out of town a few
days ahead of Scott, you know, and make arrangements. And
(01:28:28):
now that he's a married man, we don't feel it's
right that you be here in the house. She thought,
I don't wanna inconvenience. Is there any way you could
stay with somebody else or just find another place? The time,
I was waiting on a house in Gilbert, cause I
already knew they were getting married, so it was kind
of looking anyway. And there was a great girl named Brenda,
and she was waiting on her keys for the march
to go through. And it was a great war, and
it was a great house.
Speaker 12 (01:28:48):
And it was a brand new.
Speaker 10 (01:28:50):
Construction and all that. It was really nice, but she
didn't get her keys. From months and months. I think
she's in the house now.
Speaker 12 (01:28:56):
But I don't know.
Speaker 10 (01:28:56):
I haven't talked to her. So I scrambled. I went
to the institute. I wrote down a bunch of phone numbers.
I called 'em all, a lot of 'em. I got voicemails.
One girl had answered. Her name was Tiffany, and she
knew Travis and she was at his services in Arizona
and as well, and we've just remained friends sort of
like on my Space and Facebook and that kind of thing.
(01:29:17):
But she said, hey, sorry, that's an outdated posting. I
brought to take it down and go to this websiteh
at Elliott's Housing dot in. I went there, I c
made three phone calls for the places that were within
my price range. I didn't think to look where they were.
The one girl that called me back, her name is
Shannon Derricott. She said, here's my place, here's the directions.
Go ahead and go out and come see the house
that was available.
Speaker 1 (01:29:37):
So we did, Oh, go ahead, you have.
Speaker 10 (01:29:40):
To get that, okay. So I moved out there. And
when Travis found out it was so close to him,
and you freaked out about it, and I made sure
to check that it wasn't that that we wouldn't be
in the same ward and it was within his ward boundaries,
but it was also within another single's ward boundaries, So
of course I would go the other one cause it
would just be kind of weird. I mean, I didn't
(01:30:02):
know about him and Lisa met first.
Speaker 16 (01:30:06):
Did you and she also talk about her baptism and
what kind of contact.
Speaker 4 (01:30:13):
You've had with uh this around example, at the time
of the baptism mo out of it was a little bit.
Did you also talk to her about that?
Speaker 5 (01:30:21):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (01:30:23):
Did you look at uh exhibit number three fifty five,
Did that contain.
Speaker 2 (01:30:28):
That portion of the interviewer?
Speaker 8 (01:30:32):
Yeah?
Speaker 11 (01:30:40):
Ok, Exhibit three fifty five is admitted.
Speaker 1 (01:30:46):
Basically, Yeah, You've say you knew that it that it
wasn't healthy, and and you knew you was contributing to
something that wasn't good. I think everybody you guys.
Speaker 8 (01:30:55):
Continue to do it.
Speaker 10 (01:30:56):
Yeah, And part of that, part of my perspective now
has to do with the fact that I'm going through
a repentance process that I've worked out with, you know,
with my bishop, and he's given me and you know,
certain scriptures to read and ponder and pray about, and
it just it brings me back to where I was
prior to all that. I don't know how much I
(01:31:19):
never really was there as much as I am now,
because even before I was baptized, even the two days
before I was baptized four days it was on a Wednesday,
and I was baptist on Sunday before Thanksgiving, and it
was just like like Travis and I were making out.
And you know, whether that was prior to we hadn't
gone all the way at that point, but was just
too far.
Speaker 2 (01:31:42):
Did you also talk to her about the events involving
her travels on two, second, third, and four? Yes, I did.
He says, is that a portion.
Speaker 4 (01:31:57):
Of your conversation?
Speaker 5 (01:32:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:32:05):
Who would you mission?
Speaker 10 (01:32:06):
We do it?
Speaker 3 (01:32:06):
Pretty good?
Speaker 2 (01:32:10):
Objection three fifty six is admitted.
Speaker 1 (01:32:21):
It kind of giving me a really good uh rundown
of your relationship and how you guys thought of each
other and stuff, and and I was pretty pretty close
to right on with my with my theory on how
you guys. You know, why you continued to see each other,
what was going on during that time? I think there's
some other things that you're not telling me. I think
(01:32:44):
I think maybe you were the jealousy probably continued even
after the fact that you moved away for instance, the
uh was it the week of the well, the first
week of June. You took a trip to Salt Lake City.
(01:33:05):
Remember that trip we talked about.
Speaker 10 (01:33:06):
Oh this year.
Speaker 2 (01:33:07):
Yes, I'm thinking back.
Speaker 4 (01:33:08):
Oh, you had you had left.
Speaker 1 (01:33:11):
I think it was like a Monday, Well left Monday, June,
second Monday, June sat yap in morning or afternoon or something.
I can't what late.
Speaker 10 (01:33:19):
I think it was morning, okay, and.
Speaker 1 (01:33:21):
You'd gone down to reading the rented car. Where did
you rent that car?
Speaker 5 (01:33:26):
Uh?
Speaker 10 (01:33:26):
The Reading airport?
Speaker 1 (01:33:27):
Okay? Do you remember what car company it was?
Speaker 8 (01:33:30):
It?
Speaker 1 (01:33:30):
Oh?
Speaker 10 (01:33:30):
I don't remember a rental company, but I remember the
nacing model. It was a FOURD Focus.
Speaker 1 (01:33:35):
Yeah, I got that from other people. And you'd tell
they said, and you could showed up in a Ford Focus.
Uh huh.
Speaker 10 (01:33:39):
It was white four door no gross control, I like
road trips, crews Controls.
Speaker 1 (01:33:48):
You don't remember what company it was? Uh? Who rented avery?
Speaker 10 (01:33:54):
I did?
Speaker 1 (01:33:54):
Was it? Was it your credit card or okay?
Speaker 2 (01:33:57):
Yeah, I could look it up.
Speaker 1 (01:33:58):
And so you took a trip and you decided to
go to Instead of going over to Utah, you went
straight out to Los Angeles area.
Speaker 10 (01:34:08):
I went to Santa Cruz first Santa Cruz, and then
I stayed the night in Monterey and the next day
I drove to Pasadena, Okay, waiting for Laura to call
me back.
Speaker 1 (01:34:19):
You didn't contact her at all?
Speaker 10 (01:34:21):
Uh. She contacted me finally after.
Speaker 1 (01:34:22):
I'd already left it where it was too late and
you're already.
Speaker 10 (01:34:24):
Yeah to go and we had plans to to do
that again.
Speaker 1 (01:34:28):
Which route did you take from from there?
Speaker 10 (01:34:30):
I was supposed to get on the fifteen and go
all the way up, and I somehow got.
Speaker 1 (01:34:38):
Off the fifteen. Where did you move? Went up?
Speaker 2 (01:34:42):
For a while?
Speaker 10 (01:34:42):
I was lost, and I'm not above sleeping in the car,
so I slept for a while. I'm a heavy sleeper
and I sleep a.
Speaker 1 (01:34:48):
Lot, so But you were on the fifteen for a
while and you ended up getting off the fifteen somewhere.
Speaker 10 (01:34:53):
Yeah, I M, I M. I looked at a map
and I'm pretty sure I know where I went.
Speaker 5 (01:34:56):
I went.
Speaker 10 (01:34:57):
Can I drive him out?
Speaker 5 (01:34:58):
Sure?
Speaker 10 (01:35:03):
Cause I eventually started seeing signs for Phoenix and I
was like, and it was several hundred miles away still,
but that's weird? Where am I going? So you have California,
Los Angeles and Abada Arizona, Utah. And I was supposed
to go somewhere right up here. Oh pamba LEAFTI. So
(01:35:27):
the fifteen kind of does in one of.
Speaker 1 (01:35:28):
These yeah, goes through let's say Las Vegas right here.
Speaker 10 (01:35:33):
Oh yeah, I'm sorry, I'm I'm my, that's okay.
Speaker 1 (01:35:37):
So we'll just put just p I just.
Speaker 10 (01:35:38):
I know it cuts through a zone in the corner
Las Vegas, Saint George somewhere here, and then the forty
runs somewhere this way. Cause somehow I I ended up
on the forty. And when I saw the forty, I'm like,
the only thing I associate with the forty is flag staff,
and flag staff is some Utah, I mean nor north,
(01:36:03):
northern Arizona, and so and it was I was going
east and I was like, this isn't this what's going
on here? I just I wasn't going the right way.
And so I I've had for the last two years,
I've had a car that has a GPS system and
it is really good, and it I I think it's sert.
(01:36:23):
It hasn't served me as far as getting a sense
of direction when I moved Palm Desert.
Speaker 8 (01:36:28):
And you kind of rely on it a little too
much too much.
Speaker 10 (01:36:31):
In fact, when I moved when I moved in with
the g the last place I lived in Arizona, I
did not know how close it was to Travis. I
didn't realize I have a very bad sense of direction,
and it wasn't until I began to I use my
GPS the whole time I was there pretty much just
to find things anyway. So I got back, I looked
(01:36:55):
at the map quest that I I had mapped west
a bunch of places. I was maybe getting go to
Death Valley.
Speaker 1 (01:37:00):
I was maybe, did you actually cross over into Arizona's
out where you went?
Speaker 10 (01:37:04):
I crossed over twice. I think my map is wrong
because the ninety three goes north and then I hit
the fifteen again, and then I got here, and then
I hit Arizona and then went here. It the somehow
I got north on the ninety three, okay, and then
I hit the fifteenth. So I mean, I don't know
where Phoenix is, and they said it's got to be
(01:37:25):
over here. Yeah, I didn't go anywhere near there.
Speaker 1 (01:37:28):
So you you took this trip and you left on
was it Monday, the second right, and you didn't get
to Utah until Thursday.
Speaker 8 (01:37:44):
You told me.
Speaker 10 (01:37:45):
Yeah, I got to Utah on Thursday.
Speaker 1 (01:37:46):
So Thursday, and that's the fifth mm. Yeah, I think
so it's Monday, that's Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Year. Okay, so
we have it's like forty eight hours there that well
obviously three days, but there's plenty. There's forty eight hours.
(01:38:08):
So this trip took a little over forty eight hours day.
I have a problem with this trip.
Speaker 10 (01:38:15):
Well I got first too.
Speaker 12 (01:38:17):
Yeah, I don't I know you went down here.
Speaker 1 (01:38:19):
I mean obviously my Rica right there. Beautiful little place here,
except it's kind of smoky.
Speaker 3 (01:38:27):
You can't see the use.
Speaker 8 (01:38:29):
I was hoping to see some mountains, but you really.
Speaker 10 (01:38:31):
Should see out Chesta can give it you, Kase.
Speaker 1 (01:38:34):
I've gone over this trip over and over in my
mind and on paper, and even if there's still twenty
some odd hours, even if you pulled over to sleep.
Speaker 12 (01:38:50):
A couple of times.
Speaker 10 (01:38:51):
Oh did I tell you that I got stranded?
Speaker 1 (01:38:54):
Yeah, okay, you mentioned that if you slept for ten hours,
I only slept for here in here, it would still
leave eighteen similar hours yeah for something else. Okay, this
is what people are focusing on as this trip that
you took, cause they're saying she left she'd get it
(01:39:17):
til Thursday Wednesday, some traps was killed.
Speaker 10 (01:39:27):
I did not go in your's house. Isn't there are there?
Speaker 8 (01:39:31):
I pulled your cell records.
Speaker 12 (01:39:33):
Your cell phone was.
Speaker 1 (01:39:34):
Turned off between year a year? Okay, but the last
place they pulled it was here. The next place it
turned on was here. What does that show mean?
Speaker 10 (01:39:53):
Oh? Well, I began, oh no, no, no, y.
Speaker 1 (01:39:56):
Is there plenty of time for you to do that?
Speaker 8 (01:39:58):
Yes?
Speaker 12 (01:40:00):
And I do I believe that you had come.
Speaker 1 (01:40:03):
To visit Travis. Yes, I truly believe it. Did you
have the opportunity? Yes, you were traveling alone. There's no
other witnesses. Your phone just happened to turn off from
here to here.
Speaker 10 (01:40:16):
Well, I didn't turn it off physically, but it.
Speaker 1 (01:40:19):
Died and then it magically. You like you found your
charger here.
Speaker 10 (01:40:24):
It was.
Speaker 2 (01:40:25):
It was under the act.
Speaker 10 (01:40:26):
Under the seat of the passenger side, and it was
when I was when you were lost.
Speaker 1 (01:40:29):
You couldn't have you pulled over and found it?
Speaker 10 (01:40:32):
Or well, I did finally start looking when I was stranded.
I wouldn't. I wouldn't have pulled over when I was lost.
Speaker 12 (01:40:38):
Kay.
Speaker 1 (01:40:38):
If this I've been focusing on this and going over
and over.
Speaker 12 (01:40:42):
My mind, why this happened?
Speaker 1 (01:40:45):
Why your phone turns off? Here? Outside of Los Angeles?
Speaker 10 (01:40:51):
What city is that case? Going on?
Speaker 1 (01:40:53):
As far as then some cities there's towers.
Speaker 10 (01:40:55):
Oh okay, why you cash?
Speaker 1 (01:40:57):
Towers dotted all over this place. Yeah, one tower hit here,
the other tower here on the ninety three. There's no
way somebody can get on that fifteen and magically get
on that ninety three. Wow, Cause at fifteen goes right
to Las Vegas right there. It continues this way. It
never goes to Arizona.
Speaker 10 (01:41:17):
I g I got off before Las Vegas.
Speaker 1 (01:41:20):
Kay, I didn't get back as fifteen. You'd have to
go to Las Vegas and then come down south, go
through one of the weather City.
Speaker 10 (01:41:30):
I went through Oulder City going north.
Speaker 1 (01:41:34):
Did you cross over the uh?
Speaker 10 (01:41:37):
I do?
Speaker 5 (01:41:38):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (01:41:39):
And you didn't think that was odd? You were crossing
in and over.
Speaker 10 (01:41:42):
Well, after a fe I figured out I was lost
by then, and I found I found the ninety three,
and then found I went back to fifteen and this
tower here.
Speaker 1 (01:41:50):
It's not just over the border in Arizona. It's quite
a distance inside of Arizona that it hit because there's
a mountain range.
Speaker 12 (01:41:59):
Oh, here, and if you're on this side of.
Speaker 1 (01:42:04):
The mountain range pretty good distance, that signal's not gonna come,
not gonna hit you to power you tall uh or
Nevada or California. It's only gonna hit in Arizona.
Speaker 10 (01:42:16):
Well, I had somehow gotten off the fifteen and got
onto the forty, is what happened.
Speaker 1 (01:42:21):
Well, the only way you can get on the forty
is if after you cross the bridge or the uh
the dam.
Speaker 10 (01:42:30):
I think we're the I think I got on the
forty in California.
Speaker 1 (01:42:35):
From the fifteenth.
Speaker 10 (01:42:38):
Well, like cause I had actually gotten I actually began
to drive to ten West.
Speaker 1 (01:42:42):
But you see what I'm saying, the confusion that we're having,
and and we'll come back to this.
Speaker 10 (01:42:48):
Well, I got off the forty somewhere over here in California, Yeah,
and continue to drive this way, realize there was not
in the right place at all. And then I got
on to the N ninety three North, and then I
hit the fifteen again, and then I went to Las
Vegas and Ncat Georgia.
Speaker 1 (01:43:05):
And in nineteen or so, mkay, that still doesn't nothing.
At school, and I can pull about straw to you and.
Speaker 4 (01:43:13):
You'd go over and over and over again.
Speaker 1 (01:43:16):
But I don't think you're being completely honest with me
about about that trip.
Speaker 10 (01:43:20):
I honestly got lost. It's it's bad timing.
Speaker 16 (01:43:30):
Did you then confront her about whether or not she
was set the the victims well of the weddestate?
Speaker 5 (01:43:37):
Yes, I did.
Speaker 7 (01:43:41):
Take a look at uh is there at number three
fifty seven, and that contains the portion of the conversation
involving back just.
Speaker 4 (01:43:55):
What adigas thing you did in three seven.
Speaker 11 (01:43:59):
No Kids, three fifty seven is admitted.
Speaker 1 (01:44:05):
Were you at Travis's house on Wednesday?
Speaker 10 (01:44:07):
Absolutely not. It was n I was nowhere near Mesa,
it was nowhere near No Phoenix. I wasn't even close
to him.
Speaker 1 (01:44:22):
What if I could show you proof you with him?
Speaker 8 (01:44:25):
Oh that changed your mind?
Speaker 10 (01:44:27):
I wasn't there. To be honest with you, Jody, I
was not at Travis's house. It was not.
Speaker 1 (01:44:36):
You were at Travis's house.
Speaker 14 (01:44:39):
You guys had a sexual encounter, which there's pictures, And
I know you know there's pictures because I have that.
Speaker 1 (01:44:51):
I will showed them to you, mkay. So what I'm
asking you it is for you to be honest with me.
Speaker 12 (01:45:03):
I know you were there.
Speaker 10 (01:45:04):
Are you sure those pictures aren't from another time.
Speaker 8 (01:45:07):
Positive Absolutely.
Speaker 10 (01:45:12):
Last time I had any kind of sexual contact with
Travis was in April.
Speaker 12 (01:45:19):
Remember I told you about the camera.
Speaker 1 (01:45:23):
That camera was damaged. Someone put it in a washing machine,
ran into a wash cycle with some clothes of trapses.
Speaker 12 (01:45:35):
But the card is intact. I remember I told you.
Speaker 1 (01:45:38):
That card was destroyed. M.
Speaker 8 (01:45:42):
I didn't wanna tell you the truth cause I wanted
to make sure.
Speaker 1 (01:45:47):
Those photos were accurate. And we can pull to leader photos.
Speaker 12 (01:45:52):
I don't care if you delete 'em.
Speaker 8 (01:45:55):
Six months ago.
Speaker 1 (01:45:56):
We can pull every photo that was ever on there,
pulled a little pixels together, get the time stamps on 'em.
Not all of 'em, but most of 'em have time
stamps on 'em, and we can verify those time stamps.
Speaker 8 (01:46:07):
MM.
Speaker 1 (01:46:09):
And I have pictures of you in Travis's bedroom with
Travis pictures of him, and.
Speaker 8 (01:46:16):
It's obvious you guys are having.
Speaker 1 (01:46:18):
Secks taking photos of each other and they're dated and
time stamped on the day he died.
Speaker 10 (01:46:28):
Are you sure it's meat? I mean that cause I'm
just not there.
Speaker 8 (01:46:32):
It's you, and you know it's you.
Speaker 1 (01:46:38):
I know all the details of this case.
Speaker 12 (01:46:41):
The only thing I don't know is why.
Speaker 1 (01:46:44):
Why did you choose to go visit Travis that day?
And why did you do what you did?
Speaker 10 (01:46:56):
Why Travis?
Speaker 1 (01:46:58):
You did.
Speaker 10 (01:47:01):
You hurt him?
Speaker 1 (01:47:04):
That's why we're here.
Speaker 12 (01:47:06):
That's why I flew up here.
Speaker 1 (01:47:09):
Cause I needed to talk to you about this. I
can just arrest you and throw you in jail, but.
Speaker 12 (01:47:16):
I wanna know why?
Speaker 1 (01:47:18):
Why did you do this to him?
Speaker 10 (01:47:19):
Wouldn't hurt Travis? He's done so much for me.
Speaker 1 (01:47:25):
There's so much evidence in that house, so much and
at all points to you.
Speaker 10 (01:47:31):
I l I lived there. I was there for months
and months and months.
Speaker 8 (01:47:40):
I know you took pictures of him in the shower
just before he died.
Speaker 10 (01:47:47):
I don't think he would allow that.
Speaker 8 (01:47:49):
And the camera actually.
Speaker 1 (01:47:52):
Took a couple of photos by accident during the time
he was being killed. Really, actually, really, you were the
hair complain this game. It's time for you to just
come out then.
Speaker 10 (01:48:08):
I didn't don't know.
Speaker 8 (01:48:09):
I am.
Speaker 10 (01:48:09):
I did not hurt Travid, did not hurt traubt I
wouldn't do that if you am. Can I see the pictures.
Speaker 8 (01:48:26):
You have?
Speaker 12 (01:48:26):
Your blood, your hair was blood, your left pomp print.
Speaker 1 (01:48:47):
Have to see it in blood.
Speaker 7 (01:48:50):
What's going on here?
Speaker 2 (01:48:52):
Well?
Speaker 10 (01:48:52):
I can explain the blood and the hair.
Speaker 4 (01:48:54):
I don't know about my left palm print.
Speaker 8 (01:48:55):
How can you explain the blood in that well?
Speaker 10 (01:48:58):
Cause I used to bathe in the ponie and all
the time.
Speaker 1 (01:49:02):
And you haven't been there since April, right, Well, I
just had the house planed several times since then. And
this hair was not just of a hair, you know,
from the shower or something. This hair was stuck with
blood and obviously had blood on it at the time
(01:49:25):
it got stuck where it where it ended up.
Speaker 12 (01:49:28):
Why there's no other hair?
Speaker 10 (01:49:32):
Can you take Can you take a hair sample and you.
Speaker 8 (01:49:35):
Have your DNA?
Speaker 5 (01:49:36):
No?
Speaker 10 (01:49:36):
No, no, But I mean, like you know how they
could do drug tests and find out when things are done.
Can you We can't do that. Can't you measure the
time we have DNA that you that hair?
Speaker 1 (01:49:46):
Ta?
Speaker 10 (01:49:46):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (01:49:47):
I know, but man, And that hair had a follicle
on it, and that means that that hair wasn't there
very long. The pollicle will usually dissipate and go away
after a certain time. I'll fall off the hair itself.
Speaker 10 (01:50:01):
Well, when I would.
Speaker 1 (01:50:02):
Brush my shoulder hair. I mean this one, you absolutely
cannot cannot explain that way. You either had blood on
your hand when you touched the wall, or there was
blood on the wall and you touched her.
Speaker 10 (01:50:22):
Love, could my be home? Frint have already been there
and then I touched it?
Speaker 1 (01:50:27):
Sure? This is over, This is absolutely over. You need
to tell me the truth.
Speaker 10 (01:50:33):
What's in the truth is I did not hurt trials.
Speaker 1 (01:50:36):
Kay, So where's t You can continue to do this? Okay?
Speaker 8 (01:50:41):
The records, Chuck shows.
Speaker 17 (01:50:43):
You that you uh has reported a a gun stolen
twenty five otto just happens to be.
Speaker 1 (01:50:54):
The same caliber as the weapon.
Speaker 8 (01:50:57):
Used to kill him.
Speaker 10 (01:51:00):
A twenty five auto was used to keep.
Speaker 1 (01:51:02):
Trying this.
Speaker 17 (01:51:04):
He got along with multiple staboids. Joey, if you want,
I can show you some pictures of him. Do you
wanna see pictures of him?
Speaker 2 (01:51:17):
Part of me doesn't? Part of me doesn't?
Speaker 1 (01:51:20):
Why because you don't wanna remember?
Speaker 12 (01:51:22):
No a, Joey.
Speaker 10 (01:51:23):
There's a more of a curiosity, Jody. I've wanted to
know how he died.
Speaker 1 (01:51:28):
We can keep playing these games over and over again.
Speaker 8 (01:51:31):
I'm not gonna believe you.
Speaker 1 (01:51:34):
I mean, you start telling me the truth, then I
can leave you. But I can't deny this evidence.
Speaker 8 (01:51:42):
I can't.
Speaker 1 (01:51:44):
The trip he took doesn't make sense. The opportunity was
there your pictures on that date with him. Your blood
is in the house mixed with his, mixed, not alongside,
but mixed.
Speaker 12 (01:52:01):
Your hair is there with blood, and.
Speaker 1 (01:52:04):
Your pom print is there in blood. Was I it's over?
Speaker 2 (01:52:10):
Could it have been my blood from before image?
Speaker 1 (01:52:13):
It's not important right now. Saving the rest of your
life is Listen.
Speaker 10 (01:52:19):
If I'm found guilty, I don't have a life. I'm
not guilty. I didn't hurt Travis. If I hurt Travis,
if I killed Travis, I would beg for the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (01:52:32):
Was there anybody else with you?
Speaker 10 (01:52:35):
I was traveling alone the whole time.
Speaker 1 (01:52:38):
Was there anybody else with you at Travis's house? I'm
gonna stay there four.
Speaker 10 (01:52:42):
I was not at traps house.
Speaker 1 (01:52:43):
Someone to say you are, cause that's when the blood
was left on uh, the bloody pomp print was left
on his wall.
Speaker 12 (01:52:52):
I don't know what to tell you.
Speaker 8 (01:52:55):
If you were in my shoes and I had this
evidence against.
Speaker 1 (01:53:00):
Against you, what would you say.
Speaker 10 (01:53:03):
If I had that evidence against you? And yeah, it'd
be pretty obvious. But I guess being in my position,
I it just seems so impossible. I wanna see it.
I wanna know. I mean, I'm not like, I'm not
a murderer, but I guess if I were to do that,
I would wear gloves or you know something, I just.
Speaker 12 (01:53:21):
How could I M I don't know. I know.
Speaker 1 (01:53:25):
You try to push him off, try to get some
of the blot off, try to clean 'em up a
little bit. But you're even denying the pictures. Have you
been there?
Speaker 8 (01:53:38):
There's pictures of.
Speaker 1 (01:53:39):
You laying on the bed and pigtails.
Speaker 10 (01:53:42):
Pigtails.
Speaker 1 (01:53:42):
Yes, now I've got pictures of you that I've blown up,
and you've got the little mole right there. It's the
same one. It's you. It's obvious.
Speaker 8 (01:53:55):
I can show you some of these pictures.
Speaker 12 (01:53:59):
You want to see the.
Speaker 8 (01:54:01):
Will that change your mind?
Speaker 10 (01:54:05):
I mean, I am curious.
Speaker 1 (01:54:08):
Kay, let me take a break. Then let me go
find him, remember 'em and show you.
Speaker 10 (01:54:14):
I wasn't there that.
Speaker 1 (01:54:14):
You need to think about what you're saying. This. Continuing
to lie is not gonna help you.
Speaker 10 (01:54:22):
If it was something I didn't do, it won't happen either. Okay,
let's say for a second that I did, and I
say I did it.
Speaker 1 (01:54:34):
I mean, motive is there the jealousy issue?
Speaker 10 (01:54:39):
But I wasn't. I wouldn't even say it was jealous.
I mean there and there may have been some jealousy there,
But then I think, if you know, if anyone, maybe
Travis was jealous, But.
Speaker 1 (01:54:56):
That's like what everybody else says, Well, they know he was,
but they think that you are absolutely obsessed. Obsessed is
the word that they use. That's the word I hear
from everybody. Fatal attraction.
Speaker 12 (01:55:10):
I don't know how many times I've heard that.
Speaker 17 (01:55:14):
Look at Jody, Jody had to have done this or
she got someone to do it for There's not one
person that.
Speaker 1 (01:55:21):
Says anything else.
Speaker 12 (01:55:23):
Why is that?
Speaker 1 (01:55:25):
That's the perception they have of you? And there's a
reason for that perception, maybe because it's true.
Speaker 10 (01:55:32):
And maybe because we kept hanging out, but not because
it's true.
Speaker 8 (01:55:39):
Cause of this. I can prove it were there.
Speaker 10 (01:55:43):
I can prove it.
Speaker 17 (01:55:45):
But what I don't have is I don't have answers
on why it happened, or you know, maybe something just
got out of hand.
Speaker 1 (01:55:53):
Maybe maybe things got out of hand.
Speaker 10 (01:55:57):
Do you find of the gun? Maybe that would.
Speaker 1 (01:56:01):
Tell me we're just playing games here.
Speaker 8 (01:56:06):
That gun was in your possession, When did you report
it stolen?
Speaker 10 (01:56:12):
I didn't even know that there were guns until my grandpa.
My grandparents reported it stolen the day that had their
house was retrien too.
Speaker 12 (01:56:18):
The when was that, I don't remember.
Speaker 10 (01:56:21):
It was a few months ago. Maybe What did you
do with the gun? I don't have a gun.
Speaker 1 (01:56:31):
They going through your house right now, So are they
gonna find anything there? They will lead you back to this.
Speaker 10 (01:56:37):
I don't think they would. I mean, there's nothing that
could link me there. I mean, that's pretty compelling.
Speaker 2 (01:56:43):
I have to admit.
Speaker 10 (01:56:44):
If you found my palms in there, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:56:48):
They just that's Do you have a pair of sweat
pass step stripes around the backside? Was at first.
Speaker 8 (01:56:56):
Somebody seen you wearing those before?
Speaker 10 (01:57:00):
I've got so many clothes, Yeah, I think I do. Wait,
I have a well, I have zipper one that zips
in the back.
Speaker 5 (01:57:07):
Uh huh.
Speaker 1 (01:57:08):
You got like stripes, uh, like big stripe on it
on the side.
Speaker 10 (01:57:11):
Well, it's got a black stripe all the way down
and they're white.
Speaker 4 (01:57:15):
It's got the black.
Speaker 10 (01:57:16):
I have those around the house. Okay, it's got I
have two fairs. Actually one is too small and one
is just about right. The other one I bought any
one of those too small cause.
Speaker 1 (01:57:26):
It was on the sale and it's a good deal.
Speaker 10 (01:57:29):
But yeah, they have stripes they supper Well what does
that mean?
Speaker 8 (01:57:33):
What is that?
Speaker 1 (01:57:34):
Do I believe you were wearing a hairt like that?
I guess when this happened. Remember I told you about
the camera. It was taking pictures my acts I had.
The camera was upside down, had flash another time camera flashed.
Looks like it was on the ground. Maybe it was kicked.
Or are two pictures and it's obviously a female hm
(01:57:57):
and one of one was wearing those pants.
Speaker 10 (01:57:59):
Oh I didn't even bring those pants that trip.
Speaker 1 (01:58:02):
So and if you find those pants, is I gonna
make my case a little bit better? Yeah? Okay, I'm
gonna take a little break, but I need you to
think about what you do in here. This is the
best thing for you to do is to tell me
the truth and tell me exactly what happened, because.
Speaker 12 (01:58:21):
You know what, I think your mom and your dad really.
Speaker 1 (01:58:23):
Deserved the truth. They're gonna be asking and it's absolutely.
Speaker 2 (01:58:38):
It.
Speaker 1 (01:58:39):
It's so important that.
Speaker 8 (01:58:40):
You tell me.
Speaker 1 (01:58:43):
Why has occurred, what was going through your mind and
what caused.
Speaker 12 (01:58:48):
You to do this?
Speaker 1 (01:58:51):
Yeah, it happened, and I can prove it happen, and
there's no to help in.
Speaker 14 (01:58:54):
My mind, and there absolutely is no doubt in anybody
else's mind who's investigating as that.
Speaker 1 (01:58:59):
You were there and that you did this. But I'll
let you think about that. Okay.
Speaker 12 (01:59:07):
Yeah, I'm gonna go look up for.
Speaker 1 (01:59:08):
Some pictures and don't bring them over and we'll continue
this discussion. Okay, let me go find it. I'm go
it back.
Speaker 9 (01:59:18):
All right, Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take
the evening recess. Please be back in the designated area
at ten twenty five tomorrow morning. We will start promptly
at ten thirty. Remember the admonition.
Speaker 11 (01:59:29):
You are excused you have worried, please be seated. Council,
Please approach
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